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Welcome to Judaism Demystified, 
a podcast for the perplexed. 

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Join us as we explore some of 
the most fascinating Jewish and 

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Torah related topics with our 
esteemed guests. 

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By tackling some of the biggest 
questions you likely won't find 

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addressed elsewhere, we aim to 
shed light on important issues 

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and inspire a return to the 
fundamentals. 

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Enjoy the show. 
Thank you for joining the 

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Judaism Demystified podcast 
again. 

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Your first interview was a fan 
favorite, so we want to get into

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an an essay you wrote titled 
Rabbi Eliezer Berkovitz and 

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Rabbi Joseph B Soloveitchik. 
Neighbors Behind Fences, 

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published in volume 34 of Akira,
the Flatbush Journal of Jewish 

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Law and Thought, which is now 
available as Open Access. 

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What compelled you to write this
about this specific topic? 

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It's an interesting. 
Question, you know, the last 

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time we spoke, we spoke about 
what would appear to be a very, 

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very different topic. 
We spoke about Gohelit and Tanah

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and that's, I mean, that's 
that's of great interest to me. 

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I think you asked me last time, 
like what, you know, what are 

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the projects you're working on 
that sensitive? 

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You know, you guys got your tag 
at the end of the at the end of 

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the interviews. 
So I mentioned that I was 

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working on a book. 
This is my long term thing. 

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I'm working on a book about why 
Avram was chosen and that book 

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is really kind of that that goal
of writing this book has led me 

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to a lot of different ways. 
Let me a lot of a lot of 

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different paths. 
And one of the things involved 

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in that book was I started going
kind of into the deep dive on 

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Jewish philosophy in ways, but I
hadn't. 

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Really done before I. 
Hadn't done it systematically, 

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let's put it that way. 
I read books by, I've read books

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by, you know, read articles by 
Rif Cook. 

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I've read things by, by medieval
Jewish flaws with Rambaum and 

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and Ravuta Levy. 
But I've never like tried to put

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it all together into some kind 
of system, into some way of 

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understanding how they fit in. 
And even more than how they fit 

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in, how they contrast with each 
other in ways that that helps, 

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it helps understand each other 
better. 

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And the more I started 
researching, the more I kept 

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coming across essays by. 
By Rabbi Alias or Berkowitz. 

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And there was somebody who I I 
knew a little. 

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Bit about I had maybe one or two
books at home and it was kind of

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interesting and I had, you know,
known people here and there who 

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were connected with him. 
But I haven't really done the 

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sense of, you know, my teachers 
were students of Rossollovechik,

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and so I was much more likely to
be familiar with his works. 

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But reading Berkowitz's works 
just made me realize that 

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there's this is something very, 
very special, unique. 

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Both in terms of his philosophy 
and also in terms of the 

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application of his philosophy in
in today's world. 

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And then so I just started 
making some comparisons. 

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I just, I think I just noted, 
Oh, that was interesting 

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connection. 
Between, you know, with 

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Salvatrix of this and Berkowitz 
of this, and suddenly I realized

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actually there's a lot going on 
here. 

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And then like in many ways, when
I when I research things, I kind

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of feel like I feel the analogy 
of the elephant, you know, 

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carving the elephant. 
You just you, you stop carving 

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when you see the elephants 
there. 

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So I started making notes about 
all these different things about

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Resolve Chicken or Berkowitz and
realize, wow, there's a whole, 

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there's a whole level, there's a
whole layer going on there of 

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similarities and differences 
that that, you know, to speak 

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out to me in ways that I 
wouldn't. 

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I wasn't looking for those 
answers. 

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I just happened to find them 
when I when I put them down on 

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paper, one next to each other. 
Good. 

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All right. 
And how do you compare and 

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contrast the biographies of 
Resolve, Chicken or Berkowitz? 

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OK, so it's interesting, you 
know, if they. 

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They have their biographies are 
incredibly similar. 

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They are, you know, remarkably 
similar. 

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They're both born to rabbinic 
families in Eastern Europe. 

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Rabbi Salvagek, if I, by the 
way, slip into calling him the 

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rabbi, I'm sure you know, 
hopefully that'll be 

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understandable to most of your 
your listeners. 

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So with Salvage, the rabbit was 
born in 19 O 3IN in in Russia 

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and Belarus, and Berkowitz is 
born in in Austria, Hungarian in

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19 O 8. 
So their their ages are very 

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similar. 
They both came from families 

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that were, like I said, 
historical rabbinic families and

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and followed in traditions of 
people like of, of other rabbis 

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in their location. 
So Soloveitchik was a student of

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his father, but also 
particularly followed his great 

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his grandfather of of Klein 
Soloveitchik and Berkowitz was a

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student of Rabbi Akiva Glasner. 
And Rabbi Akiva Glasner was the 

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son of remote Shmuel Glasner, 
which probably you want to do a 

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whole episode on him because one
of the most fascinating figures 

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in in modern Jewish thought, not
necessarily that well known, but

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he's remarkable. 
And there is some story that 

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perhaps he was Glasner also 
taught Rabburquist, but he would

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have been a young child when it 
happened. 

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So he was influenced by his 
thought through his son and 

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through his writings. 
And so they, the approach of the

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Glasner's and the Soloveitch 
both influenced these, these 

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young men in their, in their 
hometowns and, and where they 

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grew up. 
Both enrolled in the University 

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of Berlin in the 1920s and 
studied philosophy there in. 

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In 1932, Soloveitchik received a
doctorate on the philosophy of 

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of Herman Cohen, and maybe we'll
talk about him in a bit. 

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And then the following. 
Year in 1933, Berkowitz got his 

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doctorate. 
On the philosophy of David Hume,

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we'll also talk about while in 
Berlin, they both OK, so I 

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actually have to make a little 
correction of my essay. 

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It's interesting I I wrote that 
they both studied in the 

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Hildeheimer Seminary of the 
Heliakov Weinberg professor 

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Lawrence Kaplan. 
After he read the essay, he 

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said, no, he actually you never 
studied and he didn't study in 

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the in the, in that Shiva, but 
he attended classes or he 

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monitored classes, whatever the 
the phrase is. 

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And so I looked it up and turned
out there was actually something

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Professor Gavin himself wrote 
and later corrected. 

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I looked at an earlier version 
of the essay when he said it. 

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So, but they both were there and
they both were, you know, they 

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both knew the, the aside from 
the academic, they both were 

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connected with the, you know, 
the rabbinic Jewish scene in, in

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in Berlin. 
Berkowitz became particularly 

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close with Rove Weinberg, known 
as the you know, the three day. 

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Age. 
He received his smika from, from

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Weinberg in the end. 
I mean, that's not relevant to 

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the issue at hand, but he 
actually was responsible for 

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saving a lot of the works of, of
of Weinberg, I think during the 

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war because he left earlier and 
that and they were, they were 

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very, very close. 
They both both were Berkowitz 

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and Rossollovechik, despite 
their backgrounds and their 

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family the traditional European 
Eastern European backgrounds. 

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They both became supportive of 
secular education Zionism, which

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was not, you know, obvious path 
for for people in their family 

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and they both still to this day 
have many relatives were not 

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were much more, you know, 
traditional already already 

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outlook after Berlin. 
They both served as Karina 

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rabbis in different locations. 
The Rover of salvation went to 

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Boston and Robert was was 
initially rabbi in Berlin for 

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the war and then he went. 
To Leeds in the United Kingdom. 

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Sydney, Australia. 
And then also moved to Boston 

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and I actually did a little 
research. 

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I'm, I'm a amateur genealogist 
and I was able to look up some 

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records. 
They live just a a few blocks 

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away in Boston. 
And that's actually where my 

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family's from. 
So my family live also in the 

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same few blocks. 
So, you know, a small 

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neighborhood in, in Boston and 
you know, they live, they live 

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close to each other. 
Another similarity the the rest 

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of Asia very famously was a 
Roshi Shiva in Anishiva 

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University and where addition to
his teaching Talmud, he also 

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taught classes in Jewish 
philosophy. 

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Berkowitz left Boston in 1958. 
He moved to Chicago. 

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He became the chairman of Jewish
philosophy at the Hebrew 

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Theological College there. 
So they both were connected to 

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the world of philosophy and the 
world of Talmud while in the big

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cities that they, you know 
variously that they they arrived

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in at the time. 
And next I would say they both. 

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Were very prolific authors wrote
a ton in both Hebrew and 

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English, even though for neither
was their native language, 

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having come from come from 
Europe. 

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They published in the same 
journals. 

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The salvatious famous essay The 
only man of faith right next to 

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it is an essay by Roberkowitz 
called Orthodox Judaism in a 

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World of Revolutionary 
Transformations, which is it's 

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amazing to see they're literally
neighbors on the page. 

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They wrote all kinds of things 
they wrote about. 

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Jewish philosophy from 
traditional sources, from 

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biblical sources or many 
sources, modern philosophy. 

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They they they mix it all in 
together. 

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They discussed halafic issues. 
They developed a philosophy of 

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Halafa Near was known primarily 
as a Posaic, but they but they 

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did. 
Talk a lot about the philosophy 

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of Halafa. 
And then at the end, they both, 

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you know, sort of stepped away 
from the public stage towards 

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the end of their life. 
The Rove retired the Boston the 

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80s and and died in 1983 and and
Berkowitz made all the YEAH in 

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1976 and died in 19 in 1992. 
Just one of those differences. 

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Out of curiosity. 
Sorry. 

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Yeah. 
So out of curiosity, Robin, this

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sort of glassner I believe you 
said, can you give us just like 

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just want to you said he's very 
interesting. 

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You might want to make your own 
pot on it. 

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I'm just curious what what is 
the this? 

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Who was he? 
He's he was known as the the Dor

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Rivier, which was because he was
the great grandson of the Khatam

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Sophair in in Hungary and he 
despite the Khatam Sophair's 

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connection, you know, very well 
entrenched position in Kharidi 

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Hungarian jewelry. 
Glasner was a fierce Zionist and

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innovative thinker in ways that 
you know, didn't necessarily 

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represent, you know, the the 
Khatam Sophra's famous clan of 

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Khadasha Stormy Natara because 
he was looking to innovate 

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reading his essays written. 
He, I think he died in like the 

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1920s, but he made it to Israel 
before he died and, and 

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interacted with Rif Cook. 
He had fascinating ideas about 

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Shmita, about all kinds of 
things, about how they, you 

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know, the state was still a 
couple decades away, but ideas 

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the way the state could be run. 
There's just absolutely 

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fascinating work out there. 
There are a couple of essays in 

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tradition and some other place 
where you can read some quotes 

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of his. 
Books of his might even be 

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online. 
It's it's some really, it's a 

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really. 
Fascinating. 

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Interesting. 
Thank you. 

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Thank you for that. 
I'll look into it. 

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So how did they? 
Did they interact with each 

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other of Berkwitz and Brooks 
Olovatrik? 

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OK, so, but I didn't really get 
to understand before I answer 

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this question. 
Was they some of the differences

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they're they're basically 
differences were going to be in 

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their in their approach to to to
philosophy they. 

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They both I think. 
Followed the their family or 

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they're they're. 
The way they were raised, the 

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rabbis who raised them, the 
people they followed in the way 

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that they converted to modern 
philosophy. 

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So Rossovacek was like a 
neocontian and some of his 

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essays actually compares his 
grandfather of fine to to Kant 

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and Berkowitz, both in terms of 
Rabbi Gloucester and and the 

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Weinberg, the city ish who are 
innovators in Alihah. 

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They match up in certain ways 
with his general philosophical 

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philosophical approach. 
So they they were different in 

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that. 
In the in those differences and 

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also they're obviously the 
difference in terms of their in 

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terms of their scope and through
their impact. 

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So much is much more well known 
and and and Brookwitz is less 

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so. 
I found no evidence that they 

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actually directly interact with 
each other. 

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It's hard to believe because 
they were both in Boston at the 

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same time. 
They were Berlin at. 

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The same time I mean. 
It's, it's, it's, it's, it would

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00:11:40,280 --> 00:11:42,040
be mind blowing to think they 
never want to know each other 

226
00:11:42,040 --> 00:11:45,960
and they never mention each 
other in their writings, which 

227
00:11:45,960 --> 00:11:49,720
is also kind of remarkable. 
And I've spoken to revealed 

228
00:11:49,720 --> 00:11:51,800
because his son, he wasn't aware
of this as well. 

229
00:11:52,680 --> 00:11:56,960
I have a theory that they might 
not have done this out of 

230
00:11:56,960 --> 00:11:58,840
respect for another. 
You know, they both because they

231
00:11:58,840 --> 00:12:01,440
recognize so many similarities 
they had in their backgrounds 

232
00:12:01,880 --> 00:12:04,760
that they didn't think it would 
be appropriate to criticize each

233
00:12:04,800 --> 00:12:09,760
other directly. 
But there is some evidence, I 

234
00:12:09,760 --> 00:12:12,800
think that maybe there was, you 
know, what they call like proxy 

235
00:12:12,800 --> 00:12:13,560
wars. 
Not today. 

236
00:12:13,560 --> 00:12:15,600
That's much more of a vibrant 
image. 

237
00:12:16,040 --> 00:12:19,080
But in other words, so when? 
When Rove? 

238
00:12:19,440 --> 00:12:21,760
Berkowitz was in Chicago with 
the Heber Theological College 

239
00:12:22,280 --> 00:12:24,040
Skokie Yeshiva, as it as it's 
known. 

240
00:12:24,440 --> 00:12:29,440
So he sparred sometimes with, 
with, with Yosef Phil Salvage's 

241
00:12:29,440 --> 00:12:31,160
brother of Aaron Salvage. 
They were, they had, they were 

242
00:12:31,160 --> 00:12:32,480
sometimes had tension between 
them. 

243
00:12:33,320 --> 00:12:38,600
In New York, Salvage criticized 
Rabbi Emanuel Rachman. 

244
00:12:38,600 --> 00:12:41,160
And there were times that he 
was, you know, pretty much 

245
00:12:41,160 --> 00:12:43,560
explicitly criticizing him. 
But the differences between 

246
00:12:43,560 --> 00:12:45,400
Rachman and Rachman are pretty 
minimal. 

247
00:12:45,400 --> 00:12:47,680
So, you know, it might have been
he would not want to, you know, 

248
00:12:48,040 --> 00:12:50,040
criticize for Berkowitz, but he 
could criticize for Rachman in 

249
00:12:50,040 --> 00:12:51,840
in ways that that he wouldn't 
have felt comfortable. 

250
00:12:52,600 --> 00:12:54,240
But I never found any direct 
evidence of interaction. 

251
00:12:54,880 --> 00:12:57,120
Interesting. 
OK, and tell us more about who 

252
00:12:57,120 --> 00:13:00,600
wrote their who they wrote their
doctorates about and how each 

253
00:13:01,120 --> 00:13:04,760
criticize the focus of the 
others doctorate and what does 

254
00:13:04,760 --> 00:13:06,520
that say about their 
philosophical approaches? 

255
00:13:06,720 --> 00:13:08,600
Right. 
So this is actually another way 

256
00:13:08,600 --> 00:13:10,440
that I think maybe this, you 
know, this sort of way that they

257
00:13:10,440 --> 00:13:12,280
could criticize each other 
without directly criticizing 

258
00:13:12,280 --> 00:13:14,120
each other, right? 
So as I mentioned. 

259
00:13:16,080 --> 00:13:18,680
They each chose a doctorate that
represented their philosophical 

260
00:13:18,680 --> 00:13:20,080
approach and the approach of the
rabbis. 

261
00:13:21,880 --> 00:13:27,240
The Ruberkowitz has. 
His doctoral thesis was on David

262
00:13:27,240 --> 00:13:30,520
Hume, who. 
Is considered the founding 

263
00:13:30,520 --> 00:13:34,200
father of empiricism, which is 
basically using like evidence 

264
00:13:34,200 --> 00:13:36,240
from this. 
World to prove your, your 

265
00:13:36,240 --> 00:13:37,680
claims. 
You look at the world and that's

266
00:13:37,680 --> 00:13:39,920
how you determine your, your, 
your claims of what should be, 

267
00:13:40,760 --> 00:13:42,040
how you, how you understand the 
world. 

268
00:13:42,440 --> 00:13:46,000
Like a material view. 
Materialist, I don't, I don't 

269
00:13:46,000 --> 00:13:48,040
know about materialist, but 
either it's either like 

270
00:13:48,040 --> 00:13:51,720
positivism or empiricism. 
Those are the two general terms 

271
00:13:51,720 --> 00:13:53,560
that I use. 
I'm not a huge expression. 

272
00:13:53,560 --> 00:13:57,360
There might be other terms that 
I'm not familiar with, but it's 

273
00:13:58,320 --> 00:14:01,560
that that definitely represents 
David Hume and Rossello Vechek 

274
00:14:01,920 --> 00:14:04,720
used Herman Cohen, who was one 
of the most prominent neocontian

275
00:14:04,720 --> 00:14:06,160
philosophers. 
You know, the, the the 

276
00:14:07,200 --> 00:14:10,920
innovators of content and and 
these neocontian school were 

277
00:14:10,920 --> 00:14:14,640
criticisms of empiricism and 
apositism that would they'd 

278
00:14:14,640 --> 00:14:17,360
become popular during the during
the 19th century. 

279
00:14:17,720 --> 00:14:22,120
The Neocanthian approach says 
that there is, if you understand

280
00:14:22,120 --> 00:14:26,200
reality through a priori 
categories and laws, like, you 

281
00:14:26,200 --> 00:14:29,960
know, there are ideal 
independent things that exist in

282
00:14:29,960 --> 00:14:32,800
reality and that's how you 
understand the world. 

283
00:14:32,800 --> 00:14:35,240
So for example, math is classic 
for something like that, right? 

284
00:14:35,240 --> 00:14:37,880
We don't, you don't have to 
like, you know, you can, you can

285
00:14:37,880 --> 00:14:41,160
understand it, 2 + 2 = 4 without
having to actually count the 

286
00:14:41,160 --> 00:14:44,400
number of items together. 
It's they're, you know, theories

287
00:14:44,400 --> 00:14:46,120
and principles and postulates 
and all kinds of things. 

288
00:14:46,120 --> 00:14:48,120
That's, that's how they 
understand the world. 

289
00:14:49,920 --> 00:14:53,040
And so both of those approaches 
appear in their, in their 

290
00:14:53,040 --> 00:14:56,640
writings. 
And Robert Berkowitz criticized 

291
00:14:56,640 --> 00:15:00,680
he he went a number of essays in
the 1950s and 60s where he 

292
00:15:00,680 --> 00:15:03,920
criticized the number of 
prominent Jewish thinkers, Buber

293
00:15:03,920 --> 00:15:05,440
Heschel, Heschel. 
There was actually a whole 

294
00:15:05,640 --> 00:15:08,080
discussion about in tradition, 
which I actually contributed to 

295
00:15:08,080 --> 00:15:10,960
a little back and forth 
defending Heschel, attacking 

296
00:15:10,960 --> 00:15:12,400
Heschel. 
There was all kinds of things, 

297
00:15:12,400 --> 00:15:16,320
and it, and also and also. 
Herman Cohen was it, you know, a

298
00:15:16,320 --> 00:15:21,200
Jewish thinker. 
So Berkowitz basically said that

299
00:15:22,240 --> 00:15:25,360
Herman Cohen was relying too 
much on reason and not enough on

300
00:15:25,800 --> 00:15:28,680
on history and looking to 
understand what's going on, and 

301
00:15:28,680 --> 00:15:30,680
that because of that he was 
disconnecting himself in a 

302
00:15:30,680 --> 00:15:31,680
sense. 
From. 

303
00:15:32,280 --> 00:15:34,440
What Judaism was really about, 
because he was just, he made it 

304
00:15:34,440 --> 00:15:37,640
too isolated from what actually 
the world that we live in. 

305
00:15:38,720 --> 00:15:42,880
And Russell Levechik didn't 
write an essay specific about 

306
00:15:42,880 --> 00:15:47,800
David Hume, but in his work 
Halachic man, very famous Ish 

307
00:15:47,800 --> 00:15:49,920
Aloha. 
So he talks about someone he 

308
00:15:49,920 --> 00:15:53,240
calls cognitive man. 
And cognitive man, he says, 

309
00:15:53,560 --> 00:15:56,240
approaches the world without 
preconceived notions. 

310
00:15:56,360 --> 00:15:59,000
He gropes the darkness until he 
stumbles across the repetition 

311
00:15:59,000 --> 00:16:03,080
of events as a result of which 
he can construct rules which and

312
00:16:03,080 --> 00:16:05,160
then he said in a footnote, he 
says that's the positive 

313
00:16:05,160 --> 00:16:08,080
doctrine of David Hume, meaning 
how does how does it, how does 

314
00:16:08,080 --> 00:16:10,280
it work? 
How does this cognitive man 

315
00:16:10,280 --> 00:16:11,480
work? 
He doesn't actually have. 

316
00:16:11,480 --> 00:16:13,800
Rules that he knows exists a 
priority in. 

317
00:16:13,800 --> 00:16:16,240
Advance he looks around, he 
feels, oh, maybe this is the way

318
00:16:16,240 --> 00:16:17,120
to go. 
This is the way to go. 

319
00:16:17,120 --> 00:16:18,960
And then event that's how he 
determines how the world works. 

320
00:16:18,960 --> 00:16:21,080
And that's he he criticized 
that. 

321
00:16:21,080 --> 00:16:25,480
So in the fact that each 
criticize each other's focus of 

322
00:16:25,480 --> 00:16:27,720
their doctorate is another way, 
I think that they were, you 

323
00:16:27,720 --> 00:16:29,240
know, without directly 
criticizing each other was easy 

324
00:16:29,240 --> 00:16:30,920
to criticize David Hume or 
Herman Cohen than it was 

325
00:16:30,920 --> 00:16:34,000
necessarily criticized these 
rabbis of of great stature. 

326
00:16:34,360 --> 00:16:35,880
Very interesting, very 
interesting. 

327
00:16:35,880 --> 00:16:41,880
So how do that you mentioned him
not understanding history or 

328
00:16:42,440 --> 00:16:45,200
criticizing the fact that he 
doesn't understand history. 

329
00:16:45,200 --> 00:16:48,360
What what what were each of 
their approaches regarding 

330
00:16:48,360 --> 00:16:52,680
understanding history? 
OK, so this is a little 

331
00:16:53,560 --> 00:16:56,200
challenging for some people to 
first, maybe first that's to 

332
00:16:56,200 --> 00:16:57,280
accept. 
But I think reading enough of 

333
00:16:57,280 --> 00:16:59,600
Rasalovati's writings, I'm, I'm,
I'm very convinced of this. 

334
00:16:59,840 --> 00:17:03,360
I don't think it was just like a
rhetorical, you know, technique.

335
00:17:04,839 --> 00:17:08,880
What you see by looking at 
Rasolovecic is that history is 

336
00:17:09,359 --> 00:17:11,720
simultaneous from a theological 
perspective. 

337
00:17:12,839 --> 00:17:17,359
There's no real past and future.
It's all together. 

338
00:17:17,359 --> 00:17:19,480
And in essence, that makes it in
the present, right? 

339
00:17:19,480 --> 00:17:20,560
Because that's where we're 
living. 

340
00:17:20,560 --> 00:17:23,280
In other words, we're, we, you 
know, he has images where he 

341
00:17:23,280 --> 00:17:25,520
talks about the Rashi and the 
Rambam on the same room and, and

342
00:17:25,520 --> 00:17:27,319
going back and forth. 
And that's not just a flourish, 

343
00:17:27,839 --> 00:17:30,040
it's something that, you know, 
he, he took on something like, 

344
00:17:30,040 --> 00:17:34,560
you know, that's something we 
have to feel in our very bones. 

345
00:17:34,960 --> 00:17:44,600
And by disconnecting history 
from a, from the, the scope of 

346
00:17:44,600 --> 00:17:50,200
history, from the spectrum of 
history, he can remove the issue

347
00:17:50,200 --> 00:17:53,480
of teleology, which is something
that was very important to him. 

348
00:17:53,800 --> 00:17:58,320
Teleology from telescope like 
what's the purpose if there's no

349
00:17:58,320 --> 00:18:01,520
past or future, but everything's
happening in the present. 

350
00:18:02,080 --> 00:18:03,360
You don't have to worry about 
Tilagi. 

351
00:18:03,360 --> 00:18:05,240
You don't have to worry about 
why things happened earlier. 

352
00:18:05,240 --> 00:18:07,080
You don't have to worry about 
what the purposes of things 

353
00:18:07,080 --> 00:18:09,680
happening in the future, but you
can focus on the present and for

354
00:18:09,680 --> 00:18:14,320
the Rev for Soloveitchik that 
expressed itself in in Halaha 

355
00:18:15,080 --> 00:18:17,640
very famously, for example, in 
Kolodo fake his essay about 

356
00:18:17,640 --> 00:18:20,000
suffering and the and the 
Shawaan also in the 

357
00:18:20,400 --> 00:18:21,640
establishment of the state of 
Israel. 

358
00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:24,960
He says we can't ask why, can't 
ask why. 

359
00:18:25,720 --> 00:18:27,160
But we have to ask what? 
What should? 

360
00:18:27,160 --> 00:18:29,960
We do now that's a halacha 
question, not maybe it's halacha

361
00:18:29,960 --> 00:18:32,280
with a lowercase agent and a 
capital agent. 

362
00:18:32,280 --> 00:18:34,480
It's not all about like, you 
know, asleep in the show, but 

363
00:18:34,480 --> 00:18:38,560
it's it's it's something that we
need to understand what to do 

364
00:18:38,840 --> 00:18:41,520
and that's in the present. 
We have to know what to do now. 

365
00:18:41,800 --> 00:18:45,680
So that's the teleology was 
something that was very 

366
00:18:45,680 --> 00:18:46,960
concerned. 
About and he writes about a lot 

367
00:18:46,960 --> 00:18:48,760
of his work. 
So he was, he felt that that was

368
00:18:48,760 --> 00:18:51,480
a a philosophical problem in 
Judaism. 

369
00:18:51,520 --> 00:18:54,320
And so he was able to disconnect
from that through the sort of 

370
00:18:54,320 --> 00:18:56,040
simultaneous approach to 
history. 

371
00:18:57,520 --> 00:18:59,080
You know, the quote of his says,
yeah. 

372
00:18:59,400 --> 00:19:00,960
Yeah. 
And so I'm trying to understand 

373
00:19:00,960 --> 00:19:02,640
what that means, what you just 
said. 

374
00:19:02,640 --> 00:19:04,560
What does that mean? 
I'll give a quote from a 

375
00:19:04,560 --> 00:19:06,120
Salvation, maybe that'll make it
a little more clear. 

376
00:19:06,120 --> 00:19:08,720
OK so this is from an essay of 
his called Sacred and Profane. 

377
00:19:09,600 --> 00:19:11,120
He said. 
But the Jew of the Massora has a

378
00:19:11,120 --> 00:19:14,840
different conception of time. 
Revelation and tradition erase 

379
00:19:14,840 --> 00:19:17,640
the bounds of time. 
Distance of time is non existent

380
00:19:17,640 --> 00:19:19,280
for him. 
Thousands of years may have a 

381
00:19:19,280 --> 00:19:21,360
lapse, but he walks back and 
forth from antiquity to modern 

382
00:19:21,360 --> 00:19:25,280
times. 
He he views the what he he. 

383
00:19:26,160 --> 00:19:29,680
He's he's, he's pointing, he 
he's, he's, he's trying. 

384
00:19:29,680 --> 00:19:32,240
He's encouraging us to see 
things from the creator point of

385
00:19:32,240 --> 00:19:34,240
view. 
No, from the from the nod point 

386
00:19:34,240 --> 00:19:37,480
of view, I would say from from, 
In other words, there it doesn't

387
00:19:37,480 --> 00:19:40,640
matter for him if you know the 
Mishnah. 

388
00:19:40,960 --> 00:19:42,680
I mean, obviously there's a 
structure of how the how the 

389
00:19:42,720 --> 00:19:46,000
stock works, but in other words,
he could interact with the 

390
00:19:46,000 --> 00:19:48,480
Rambam and he could interact 
with a body and he could, you 

391
00:19:48,480 --> 00:19:51,200
know, these are all 
contemporaries. 

392
00:19:51,200 --> 00:19:56,880
And he describes this and I will
say in a very descriptive way of

393
00:19:56,880 --> 00:19:58,320
how he saw them in the same room
together. 

394
00:19:58,320 --> 00:20:00,280
And they were, they were, you 
know, they were debating and, 

395
00:20:00,840 --> 00:20:03,680
and it was because I guess his, 
you know, his concern would be 

396
00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:06,800
that if you talk about people in
the past, then, you know, the 

397
00:20:06,800 --> 00:20:09,240
present is going to have a 
different relationship to them. 

398
00:20:09,800 --> 00:20:11,080
And he was living through a 
time. 

399
00:20:11,760 --> 00:20:14,040
And his and and his aunt and his
and his father, grandfather, 

400
00:20:14,040 --> 00:20:16,640
great grandfather, we're living 
through time when, when, when 

401
00:20:18,080 --> 00:20:21,080
you had people challenging using
by saying, well, that might have

402
00:20:21,080 --> 00:20:23,520
been how it was appropriate back
then, but it isn't relevant for 

403
00:20:23,520 --> 00:20:29,360
now. 
By removing the by distance 

404
00:20:29,360 --> 00:20:32,040
between past and future and 
having everything the present, 

405
00:20:32,040 --> 00:20:34,760
you don't have those concerns 
because it's just as relevant 

406
00:20:34,760 --> 00:20:37,240
what was said 1000 or 2000 years
ago as it is what's happening 

407
00:20:37,240 --> 00:20:39,720
today. 
OK, so he he uh huh. 

408
00:20:39,720 --> 00:20:43,960
So, so he doesn't want, he 
doesn't want this reality in 

409
00:20:43,960 --> 00:20:51,200
which things in the past have a 
certain it's for the past or 

410
00:20:51,200 --> 00:20:53,680
it's it's it's, it's it. 
Should be timeless. 

411
00:20:55,680 --> 00:20:56,920
Timeless. 
Everything is timeless. 

412
00:20:56,920 --> 00:21:03,680
There's an eternal nature to 
Jewish history, and so therefore

413
00:21:04,400 --> 00:21:09,960
we have to view the words of the
past and basically view it as 

414
00:21:09,960 --> 00:21:13,400
right now. 
Yes, I think that's a good way 

415
00:21:13,400 --> 00:21:14,320
of. 
Of describing it. 

416
00:21:14,920 --> 00:21:20,400
Also, I think it's noteworthy 
that the early reform concern 

417
00:21:20,400 --> 00:21:22,800
who is maybe conservative 
particularly, I think we're like

418
00:21:22,800 --> 00:21:24,200
known as like the historical 
movements. 

419
00:21:24,200 --> 00:21:27,640
And so that there they they took
history in a different path 

420
00:21:27,640 --> 00:21:30,400
thinking, OK, well, you know, 
it's not it's it's we can 

421
00:21:30,760 --> 00:21:32,520
understand why things were done 
back then, but they're not 

422
00:21:32,520 --> 00:21:35,200
necessarily as relevant for for 
now and and the rough that was 

423
00:21:35,200 --> 00:21:36,720
timeless. 
If there's timeless, the only 

424
00:21:36,720 --> 00:21:38,480
way can be timeless. 
If the history doesn't change, 

425
00:21:38,920 --> 00:21:41,720
Maybe we'll understand a little 
better if we if we if we look at

426
00:21:41,720 --> 00:21:45,840
Berkowitz, who in some ways 
might be the more expected 

427
00:21:45,840 --> 00:21:48,240
approach, the way we generally 
as modern people view history. 

428
00:21:48,240 --> 00:21:51,080
But it is relevant with the 
Judaism to see that we do have 

429
00:21:51,080 --> 00:21:52,960
these two separate paradigms of 
how it could work. 

430
00:21:53,280 --> 00:21:57,200
So with Berkowitz viewed it as a
linear history. 

431
00:21:57,200 --> 00:21:59,920
Each period history is the same 
for the previous ones and each 

432
00:21:59,920 --> 00:22:01,840
one changed the reality of the 
previous ones. 

433
00:22:02,680 --> 00:22:04,400
He very hit. 
For him, history was like a 

434
00:22:04,400 --> 00:22:06,640
very, very essential component 
of his. 

435
00:22:07,040 --> 00:22:12,520
Of his philosophy, he his his 
main book, I would say is God, 

436
00:22:12,520 --> 00:22:15,000
man in history and he. 
Put that in there. 

437
00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:17,240
I don't think that you know. 
Salvature would have would have.

438
00:22:17,480 --> 00:22:20,000
Come to with with the name of 
history in in that book. 

439
00:22:22,280 --> 00:22:23,800
So here's a quote from 
Berkowitz, for example. 

440
00:22:24,160 --> 00:22:25,960
This is from his book called 
Faith after the Holocaust. 

441
00:22:26,680 --> 00:22:29,160
He said we've known all these 
years that there is no way back 

442
00:22:29,160 --> 00:22:31,320
to the past, but in which 
direction are we moving? 

443
00:22:31,800 --> 00:22:33,960
We've been called to a new 
beginning in the past. 

444
00:22:33,960 --> 00:22:36,640
After every Corban, we built 
something new and different. 

445
00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:40,040
Having found a way back to Tsion
in a messianic moment, we know 

446
00:22:40,040 --> 00:22:41,880
that God is doing a new thing 
now. 

447
00:22:41,880 --> 00:22:44,760
It shall spring forth. 
So he viewed no, there can be 

448
00:22:44,760 --> 00:22:47,440
changes there. 
He wasn't necessarily afraid of 

449
00:22:47,440 --> 00:22:53,120
history, was not a threat. 
The way there were salvation 

450
00:22:53,760 --> 00:22:56,560
history was an opportunity of, 
you know, we there were times 

451
00:22:56,560 --> 00:23:00,040
when things got bad and we, you 
know, Jews had to deal with the 

452
00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:02,800
Qurban, with the Galut and all 
that, but also opportunities 

453
00:23:02,800 --> 00:23:04,600
when the when the return to 
Tsion happened. 

454
00:23:04,600 --> 00:23:06,280
And that was something that was 
not a. 

455
00:23:07,040 --> 00:23:08,000
Something to be. 
Afraid of. 

456
00:23:08,680 --> 00:23:11,040
And so he he embraced, he 
embraced history in that, in 

457
00:23:11,040 --> 00:23:14,800
that. 
Way is there a, can you explain 

458
00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:17,920
a little bit about why for 
example of Soloveitchik was so 

459
00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:22,800
why do you think his worldview 
was was about that like history?

460
00:23:23,480 --> 00:23:27,280
Well, why is it a threat? 
Because the the context always 

461
00:23:27,280 --> 00:23:29,760
matters, right? 
Like if you just pull, if you 

462
00:23:29,760 --> 00:23:32,720
just take, you know, different 
rabbis and different eras and 

463
00:23:32,720 --> 00:23:37,040
express that as now it's, it's, 
it seems like it's a, you know, 

464
00:23:37,040 --> 00:23:39,280
intellectually dishonest in a 
way, because you're not really 

465
00:23:39,280 --> 00:23:43,080
giving the, the real picture. 
So what, what would be his, what

466
00:23:43,080 --> 00:23:45,280
do you think his mindset was? 
So I think there are a couple of

467
00:23:45,280 --> 00:23:46,920
things. 
First of all, we talked before 

468
00:23:46,920 --> 00:23:49,920
about his, his Neocontin 
approach and this a priori 

469
00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:53,200
approach, you know, if you view.
Halacha, you view Judaism is 

470
00:23:53,360 --> 00:23:55,920
kind of like math or science. 
Well, math or science isn't 

471
00:23:55,920 --> 00:23:58,840
historically dependent, right? 
You have. 

472
00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:02,560
You have rules that are. 
You know, 2 + 2 is always been 

473
00:24:02,560 --> 00:24:04,640
true. 
And if Halaf is always true, 

474
00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:06,800
then you if you throw in 
history, you're suddenly making 

475
00:24:07,040 --> 00:24:10,120
considerations that that salvage
found foreign. 

476
00:24:11,280 --> 00:24:12,920
So that was just a general 
philosophical approach. 

477
00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:15,680
But in terms of his context, I 
think the context really has to 

478
00:24:15,680 --> 00:24:17,920
do with his grandfather and his 
great grandfather. 

479
00:24:17,960 --> 00:24:21,240
I wrote an essay once about how 
history, you know, could history

480
00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:23,920
change and, and things like that
about about his great 

481
00:24:23,920 --> 00:24:26,280
grandfather. 
They were dealing with a time 

482
00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:29,240
when, like I said, they, they 
people were introducing, you 

483
00:24:29,240 --> 00:24:32,120
know, Judaism have been kind of 
like, you can just say stagnant 

484
00:24:32,120 --> 00:24:34,760
or you can say, you know, 
steady, depending on which 

485
00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:36,000
positive or negative you want to
use. 

486
00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:38,040
But it had been, you know, 
hadn't changed that much in 

487
00:24:38,040 --> 00:24:40,080
hundreds of years. 
And all of a sudden they were 

488
00:24:40,080 --> 00:24:41,960
dealing with challenges, saying 
no, no, there's a new time. 

489
00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:44,000
There's the emancipation, 
there's Escala, there's, 

490
00:24:44,360 --> 00:24:48,480
there's, you know, new worlds 
and new ideas and, and maybe we 

491
00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:50,000
the Holocaust should be changing
in in. 

492
00:24:50,040 --> 00:24:52,200
Accordance with that. 
And that was a real threat. 

493
00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:53,960
I mean, it wasn't just, it 
wasn't a hypothetical threat. 

494
00:24:53,960 --> 00:24:55,520
There was many, many Jews who 
left. 

495
00:24:55,880 --> 00:24:58,400
Who left the traditional? 
Path because of that and so by. 

496
00:24:58,400 --> 00:25:02,720
Taking a more a stronger stance 
by saying no, this is not Rashi 

497
00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:06,040
wasn't irrelevant because he 
lived 1000 years ago Rama wasn't

498
00:25:06,040 --> 00:25:07,200
relevant because they had years 
ago. 

499
00:25:07,520 --> 00:25:10,960
They were just as relevant then 
you suddenly don't have to 

500
00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:15,840
that's much less of a challenge.
I see OK makes a lot of sense. 

501
00:25:15,840 --> 00:25:19,400
So how do they each understand 
the time and mitzvah. 

502
00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:22,080
This is a part I'm really 
excited to hear right. 

503
00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:24,200
So the time and this was a very 
interesting thing. 

504
00:25:24,240 --> 00:25:27,240
It's it's this has to do with 
it. 

505
00:25:27,480 --> 00:25:31,120
It does go back to the issue of 
teleology in a sense that 

506
00:25:31,120 --> 00:25:33,720
theology is saying what's the 
purpose of something, right. 

507
00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:35,600
So what's the purpose of 
something can mean you can kind 

508
00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:36,920
of understand in two different 
ways. 

509
00:25:37,320 --> 00:25:41,040
It can either be why am I doing 
this for the future or what was 

510
00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:42,920
the purpose of the thing that 
happened in the past. 

511
00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:49,520
And then the the if the reason 
why something happened in the 

512
00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:51,920
past is no longer relevant and 
suddenly maybe you're pulling 

513
00:25:51,920 --> 00:25:53,560
the rug out from what's from 
what's going on. 

514
00:25:53,560 --> 00:25:55,360
So for example, the Ron boundary
famously. 

515
00:25:55,840 --> 00:26:00,800
In in, in the morning. 
But also, by the way, that's a 

516
00:26:00,800 --> 00:26:03,160
separate issue, but I, I, I'm 
not one of people who makes a 

517
00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:08,440
huge distinction between between
the the and the but that's that 

518
00:26:08,440 --> 00:26:10,880
maybe for another, another 
conversation. 

519
00:26:11,640 --> 00:26:13,880
But the Rama gave historical 
reasons for the mitzvot. 

520
00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:15,880
Really, right. 
That's that's definitely 

521
00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:20,520
something he did and Russell 
Ovechik, like, you know, blasted

522
00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:25,800
him for that in. 
He said in in the end of his 

523
00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:29,280
book Halach the Halachic Mind. 
He says that the master of the 

524
00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:32,920
Rambam, who spots shape shaped 
Jewish ideology for centuries to

525
00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:35,400
come, did not succeed in making 
his interpretation of the 

526
00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:37,360
commandments prevalent in our 
world perspective. 

527
00:26:37,640 --> 00:26:40,560
We completely ignore most of his
rational notions regarding the 

528
00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:42,840
commandments. 
They're essentially, if not only

529
00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:45,520
valueless meaning his the 
Rambam's explanation of his vote

530
00:26:46,120 --> 00:26:47,480
for the religion interest 
interest. 

531
00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:50,840
We have at heart rationalize the
commandments genetically, 

532
00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:53,720
meaning according to historical 
origin. 

533
00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:56,480
Maimonides developed a religious
instrumentalism. 

534
00:26:56,480 --> 00:27:01,200
That's an important word where 
causality reverted to teleology.

535
00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:03,480
So it's like 3 terms there. 
Instrumentalism is basically 

536
00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:06,080
using something for a purpose, 
right? 

537
00:27:06,360 --> 00:27:08,160
Causality of what was the cause 
of something and. 

538
00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:10,200
Teleology is going is what the 
purpose of doing something in 

539
00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:13,000
the future is. 
So he said, causality reverted 

540
00:27:13,000 --> 00:27:14,880
to theology. 
It's all part of the same thing.

541
00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:16,080
It has to sort of do with the 
historical. 

542
00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:20,040
Perspective we talked about. 
Classically, what's what Ramos 

543
00:27:20,040 --> 00:27:21,920
most famous thing talks about 
the let's say the Corbinot, 

544
00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:25,680
right? 
So if the Corbinot or because of

545
00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:31,320
Egyptian or other countries 
idolatrous practices and those 

546
00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:32,920
practices don't exist anymore, 
they maybe don't need the 

547
00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:36,000
Corbinot, right. 
And then that's, that's for the 

548
00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:37,400
future. 
Maybe you could say the same 

549
00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:39,280
things about kashrut or any 
other things we're doing now. 

550
00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:43,000
The the Rav for Slovic, it was a
very dangerous approach and 

551
00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:45,440
didn't actually he basically 
saying that the Rama didn't 

552
00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:47,840
contribute anything to our to, 
to Judaism. 

553
00:27:47,840 --> 00:27:49,920
In that, in that sense, even 
though he's a big, you know, fan

554
00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:55,440
of the Ramba, he, he, he 
couldn't accept that approach. 

555
00:27:55,480 --> 00:27:57,920
He's not the only one with cook 
with Hirsch very similar 

556
00:27:57,920 --> 00:28:01,840
writings about criticizing the 
round bomb in his in his 

557
00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:06,160
approach to to Tammy Mitzvah. 
The Robertowitz is a little bit 

558
00:28:06,160 --> 00:28:08,160
different. 
On the one hand, in an earlier 

559
00:28:08,160 --> 00:28:12,520
book, he he maybe is more, a 
little bit more aligned with 

560
00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:14,400
salivation. 
For example, he says in God's 

561
00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:17,360
man history, which came out in 
the 50s, he said, what is the 

562
00:28:17,360 --> 00:28:20,600
purpose of the law? 
Nor is our our ambition to try 

563
00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:22,200
and fathom the intentions of the
law giver. 

564
00:28:22,560 --> 00:28:24,360
It is enough for the believer to
know he is to do the will of 

565
00:28:24,360 --> 00:28:27,360
God, meaning he didn't 
impressing. 

566
00:28:27,360 --> 00:28:29,800
We don't need to necessarily 
understand the the God's 

567
00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:31,040
motivations. 
For the mitzvot. 

568
00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:34,680
Right, but it's opening up a 
rabbit hole. 

569
00:28:35,120 --> 00:28:37,960
Yeah, and we can. 
Well, I that's the question. 

570
00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:41,360
In other words, I, I don't, I 
don't think that necessarily 

571
00:28:41,360 --> 00:28:44,600
Berkowitz had the same concerns 
that Salvage was worried about 

572
00:28:44,600 --> 00:28:46,960
what's this going to do to us? 
But Berkowitz, I think might 

573
00:28:46,960 --> 00:28:48,720
just easily said, look like we 
can't know. 

574
00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:51,160
We can't know God's will in that
sense. 

575
00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:53,960
And so, you know, what's the 
point of trying to do this? 

576
00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:57,920
But in a later book, and I think
other words in in through his 

577
00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:00,720
electric in general, you get a 
slightly different idea. 

578
00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:03,320
So he writes in in Jewish Women 
in Time and Torah, which I think

579
00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:06,880
his last book he said. 
But the principle that the 

580
00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:09,600
Rambam uses for his 
interpretation has general 

581
00:29:09,600 --> 00:29:13,880
validity and reveals Judaism's 
basic method for the application

582
00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:16,680
of the eternal world to God in a
time conditioned reality of the 

583
00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:19,200
human situation. 
So basically what Berkowitz is 

584
00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:23,920
saying is the Rama, whether or 
not he actually maybe accepted 

585
00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:27,320
the, the you know, the, the idea
of what the Rama's answers were,

586
00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:30,120
you know, for, you know, more 
and more other places. 

587
00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:35,040
But the idea that the Torah was 
given in a historical context to

588
00:29:35,040 --> 00:29:39,560
help solve historical problems 
is something he he thinks has 

589
00:29:39,560 --> 00:29:43,560
relevance, He said. 
That's the that's shows the 

590
00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:46,200
reveals Judaism basic method for
the application of eternal word.

591
00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:48,240
In other words, the Torah was 
given at a particular time in 

592
00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:54,440
history, but we need to have the
halaha effect what's going on in

593
00:29:54,440 --> 00:29:55,960
our time, just like in every 
generation. 

594
00:29:56,320 --> 00:29:59,400
And the fact that the Torah was 
based in history a lot give 

595
00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:01,240
that's what gives us the 
permission to cough. 

596
00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:06,640
What are we going to call it to 
to interpret the the Torah in or

597
00:30:06,640 --> 00:30:09,160
apply the the Torah in in each 
in each generation. 

598
00:30:09,160 --> 00:30:12,240
So that's the so he didn't 
reject the time in the same in 

599
00:30:12,240 --> 00:30:15,320
the same out route rate out 
right way that Rosso of aging 

600
00:30:15,320 --> 00:30:18,360
did. 
Well, didn't Khazal in a way. 

601
00:30:19,760 --> 00:30:22,520
The problem with me saying this 
is that I don't have the exact 

602
00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:24,760
ideas in my mind, so it's going 
to come out flat. 

603
00:30:24,760 --> 00:30:28,760
But if I, if I remember 
correctly, when you look at what

604
00:30:28,760 --> 00:30:33,360
Avodah Zara, Avodah Zara is in 
homage, there's a sort of 

605
00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:39,400
reinterpretation of ghazal into 
into the context of idolatry. 

606
00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:41,800
Am I wrong about that? 
That's the. 

607
00:30:43,000 --> 00:30:45,200
Problem I don't have the actual 
things in my. 

608
00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:47,240
Mind I mean there are definitely
you know that we have certain 

609
00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:50,960
that are given historical 
reasons in the in in the Torah 

610
00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:53,480
right and including some of the 
reasons are related to Alvarez 

611
00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:56,520
right For example, you talk 
about the not you know sacrifice

612
00:30:59,120 --> 00:31:00,480
slaughtering outside the tent 
because. 

613
00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:02,320
You don't want to be like the 
people who were who were 

614
00:31:02,320 --> 00:31:05,960
slaughtering at the time right 
to to demons and things. 

615
00:31:06,800 --> 00:31:09,440
Obviously some are clearly for 
historical purposes, like 

616
00:31:09,800 --> 00:31:11,120
Shabbat and Pesach and 
everything. 

617
00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:14,440
Which lends itself to so so 
that's so so. 

618
00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:19,480
How would Rov Soloveitchik 
understand when when Mikra is 

619
00:31:19,480 --> 00:31:21,640
clearly given historical context
of mitzvah? 

620
00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:28,520
So I think he's just saying that
it doesn't he he needs an 

621
00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:33,600
eternal answer because otherwise
it won't speak to the. 

622
00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:36,920
People who are hearing it. 
I'm not saying he's, I don't 

623
00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:38,800
know if for Salvecic, if you, if
you, you know, put him in the 

624
00:31:38,800 --> 00:31:40,400
corner, he said. 
Could this have been the reason?

625
00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:41,920
Would he have agreed or not? 
That's hard to say. 

626
00:31:42,280 --> 00:31:45,640
He's saying he's saying the 
Rambam is not doing a service to

627
00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:48,040
anyone by giving the ancient 
spiritual. 

628
00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:50,080
Context. 
So in for example, I didn't, I 

629
00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:52,240
didn't quote this here, but in 
in the in that section in the 

630
00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:57,720
lhic mind of Salavecic quotes 
the Rambam in Mourinhovulkham on

631
00:31:57,720 --> 00:31:59,160
chauffeur. 
And I don't remember exactly 

632
00:31:59,160 --> 00:32:00,760
what he said, but he gave you 
some, you know, reason for it. 

633
00:32:02,280 --> 00:32:05,200
But then he quotes the Rambam in
the Misha Torah on chauffeur and

634
00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:07,080
he says it's Uri Shamim. 
You know, you have to wake up. 

635
00:32:07,080 --> 00:32:08,720
And that's something that can 
speak to every generation. 

636
00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:11,680
And that is it's, it's, it's 
applicable, it's relevant. 

637
00:32:11,920 --> 00:32:14,600
And, and so he's not necessarily
saying he's not getting a 

638
00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:15,880
history thing of saying it's 
true or not true. 

639
00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:18,720
He just the, the resolvation 
just says it's valueless. 

640
00:32:18,880 --> 00:32:20,720
It doesn't help. 
What do you think? 

641
00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:22,280
You're not an, you're not an 
Egyptian. 

642
00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:24,480
You know, you're not, you're not
being challenged right now by 

643
00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:26,120
Egyptian idolatry. 
So how does it going to help you

644
00:32:26,120 --> 00:32:27,960
to know that the sacrifices were
to do that? 

645
00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:32,240
You need an answer that's going 
to be relevant for all time, 

646
00:32:32,560 --> 00:32:36,280
otherwise it'll just eventually 
drop off and not be not be 

647
00:32:36,280 --> 00:32:38,920
applicable and won't help. 
You at all, but it will just 

648
00:32:38,920 --> 00:32:41,360
dissolve naturally and you'll 
have people just. 

649
00:32:41,480 --> 00:32:45,760
Just. 
Saying, you know, we don't need 

650
00:32:45,760 --> 00:32:47,960
to do this anymore, right? 
And and the truth, look, you can

651
00:32:47,960 --> 00:32:49,200
say this about similar things 
today. 

652
00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:51,120
I mean, this is not, you know, 
you could say, I don't know, 

653
00:32:51,120 --> 00:32:56,440
take something a Minogue that is
based in some questionable 

654
00:32:56,440 --> 00:32:58,320
sources. 
It's I don't know, people. 

655
00:32:58,360 --> 00:32:59,960
Let's say, I don't know, let's 
say you talk about Kaparos, 

656
00:32:59,960 --> 00:33:00,920
right? 
I don't know, I know, or you 

657
00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:04,560
talked about, you know, maybe 
Kaparot had idolatrous origins 

658
00:33:04,560 --> 00:33:06,240
or Schlisselhala. 
When you know, any of these 

659
00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:07,960
things not we're clearly not 
talking about mitzvot. 

660
00:33:07,960 --> 00:33:10,080
Now they might have had they 
might have had, you know, 

661
00:33:10,080 --> 00:33:14,400
origins which were not ideal or 
even or even worse, clearly you 

662
00:33:14,400 --> 00:33:16,560
wouldn't say, you know, we 
should do those things because 

663
00:33:16,560 --> 00:33:18,760
of the idolatrous practices. 
They were done at the time. 

664
00:33:19,280 --> 00:33:23,080
But if those practices are not 
relevant anymore and they 

665
00:33:23,080 --> 00:33:28,000
provide religious, uplifting, 
spiritual value benefit to the 

666
00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:30,320
person who's doing them, then it
could have benefit to life, even

667
00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:32,600
if it may be even better if they
don't know the the history of 

668
00:33:32,600 --> 00:33:34,600
it, you know, if they think 
that, again, obviously, you 

669
00:33:34,600 --> 00:33:35,880
know, it has. 
To be the shame of mine. 

670
00:33:36,240 --> 00:33:38,720
But that maybe that's a little 
easier to understand in our 

671
00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:39,840
time. 
Versus going all the way back to

672
00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:42,680
the Torah. 
But then there's the obvious 

673
00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:46,920
like, you know, Torah laws, 
like, for example, like a 

674
00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:51,040
captive woman, right, The laws 
of the captive woman that is 

675
00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:54,200
only relevant for the biblical. 
It's not relevant anymore in a 

676
00:33:54,200 --> 00:33:57,160
way. 
So I, I mentioned actually one 

677
00:33:57,160 --> 00:33:59,120
point, I think in the essay, or 
maybe I didn't put it in, I 

678
00:33:59,200 --> 00:34:01,880
don't recall, but it was the, 
the, you know, there's some 

679
00:34:01,880 --> 00:34:07,680
famous Halehot that or mitzvot 
that the Gemara says that are 

680
00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:12,159
no, never happened. 
And you know, like it. 

681
00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:15,320
That's where and Ian Dachat 
maybe and some others. 

682
00:34:16,560 --> 00:34:18,880
And there was one place I read 
in Russell Ovechuk where he 

683
00:34:18,880 --> 00:34:22,639
basically said, like, that's our
ideal mitzvah because it was so 

684
00:34:22,639 --> 00:34:25,000
disconnected from history that 
it wasn't even necessarily 

685
00:34:25,000 --> 00:34:27,040
relevant anymore. 
And we can, we can, the 

686
00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:29,600
application of it doesn't, isn't
dependent on whether it happened

687
00:34:29,600 --> 00:34:30,840
or not. 
We can say, ah, now we're really

688
00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:33,760
just doing it, you know, shame, 
shame or, or, or it's just, you 

689
00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:35,400
know, it's giving the message 
without being worried about 

690
00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:36,719
whether it actually, actually 
happened or not. 

691
00:34:36,719 --> 00:34:40,679
And that's so, so look, either 
side, either side here. 

692
00:34:40,679 --> 00:34:43,199
I'm not trying to say the 
necessary, you know, Berkowitz 

693
00:34:43,199 --> 00:34:45,800
is, is 100% right. 
And, and Russell Ovechuk was 

694
00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:46,840
wrong. 
There's obviously historical 

695
00:34:46,840 --> 00:34:49,080
things the road doesn't talk 
about some, you know, some of 

696
00:34:49,080 --> 00:34:51,400
them, for example, the road 
doesn't talk that much about 

697
00:34:51,560 --> 00:34:53,880
Hanukkah, for example, in this 
in historical sense, right, 

698
00:34:54,199 --> 00:34:56,880
Because those are more 
innovative, you know, things 

699
00:34:56,880 --> 00:35:01,320
he's more comfortable in the, in
the more eternal mitzvah and the

700
00:35:01,320 --> 00:35:02,720
ones that weren't dependent on 
time. 

701
00:35:03,560 --> 00:35:08,960
So it's, it is interesting that 
especially in like you bring 

702
00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:13,600
Korbanot as an example and then 
with the, with the but Rambam 

703
00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:18,280
in, in Mishnatura actually says 
that, you know, it is a positive

704
00:35:18,280 --> 00:35:22,320
mitzvah to establish the temple 
and re rededicate the not the 

705
00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:28,600
Rambam is sort of he's he's sort
of anticipating the problem, 

706
00:35:29,080 --> 00:35:31,800
right. 
And and saying that, you know, 

707
00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:34,480
it makes no difference what the 
reason was. 

708
00:35:34,760 --> 00:35:38,160
Once the command is given, it 
has eternal significance. 

709
00:35:38,600 --> 00:35:40,200
Right. 
So the the question of how? 

710
00:35:40,280 --> 00:35:44,600
How did you know fit the Rambam 
into the you? 

711
00:35:44,840 --> 00:35:46,080
Know the square. 
Peg of the Rambam in the round 

712
00:35:46,080 --> 00:35:48,520
hole or whatever is difficult. 
There was actually a professor 

713
00:35:48,520 --> 00:35:50,920
of Hubria University who passed 
away a year or two ago who I 

714
00:35:50,920 --> 00:35:52,320
think actually gave the most 
good answer. 

715
00:35:52,720 --> 00:35:55,400
Professor Sheldon Rosenberg, who
basically said he gives it 

716
00:35:55,440 --> 00:35:57,920
because at the end of in Hiljot 
to the Hiljot Mela where they 

717
00:35:57,920 --> 00:36:03,760
talk about, you know, hectic and
and the Rama says there that he 

718
00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:06,760
gives the example of, you know, 
you can be do hectic for sticks 

719
00:36:06,760 --> 00:36:08,960
and stones to become. 
Kadosh. 

720
00:36:09,120 --> 00:36:12,920
And become holy. 
And the he said that's a 

721
00:36:12,920 --> 00:36:15,240
Michelle for for the mitzvot, 
which is a very kind of unusual 

722
00:36:15,240 --> 00:36:17,280
thing to say. 
So Professor Rosenberg said no, 

723
00:36:17,280 --> 00:36:19,640
you're, he said, even if there, 
according to Rama, even if there

724
00:36:19,640 --> 00:36:24,880
were historical reasons, once 
they were sanctified, then they 

725
00:36:24,880 --> 00:36:26,960
have just as much validity as 
forever. 

726
00:36:26,960 --> 00:36:31,920
Which is why the Rambam, unlike 
the other halachic writers, was 

727
00:36:31,920 --> 00:36:35,360
willing to include the mitzvot 
in his in the mission. 

728
00:36:35,680 --> 00:36:36,920
That weren't relevant in his 
time because. 

729
00:36:36,920 --> 00:36:40,520
He wasn't he, He the the 
Rambam's view of history is kind

730
00:36:40,520 --> 00:36:41,920
of complicated. 
In some ways it's very anti 

731
00:36:41,920 --> 00:36:43,320
historical. 
Some ways it's very historical. 

732
00:36:43,320 --> 00:36:45,520
It's it's, it's confusing it, 
you know, if you look at, let's 

733
00:36:45,520 --> 00:36:48,720
say the introduction to the 
Rambam makes it out like there's

734
00:36:48,720 --> 00:36:52,320
no history going on. 
It's, it's, it's but so I think 

735
00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:54,600
each the Berkowitz Andrew 
Salvage are kind of able to sort

736
00:36:54,600 --> 00:36:56,240
of pick and choose a little bit 
in terms of each following the 

737
00:36:56,240 --> 00:36:58,800
Rambam for the, you know, 
because you can find aspects of 

738
00:36:58,800 --> 00:37:02,040
each. 
For example, the the, the while 

739
00:37:02,040 --> 00:37:06,040
the salvage rejected the 
Rambam's approach, the time he 

740
00:37:06,040 --> 00:37:10,520
very much supported the 
codification of the Halafa in 

741
00:37:10,520 --> 00:37:13,640
the Mishnah Torah. 
I have I quote in the essay from

742
00:37:13,720 --> 00:37:16,200
from the salivations grandson, 
who's another Rushi, Vlad Sion 

743
00:37:16,200 --> 00:37:19,000
of Moshe Salivation, who said 
why they why the why the 

744
00:37:19,000 --> 00:37:21,800
Briskers, why the, you know, his
family loves learning the Rama 

745
00:37:21,800 --> 00:37:24,040
because this is all everything 
is there. 

746
00:37:24,040 --> 00:37:26,360
They don't have to pick and 
decide what's what happened once

747
00:37:26,360 --> 00:37:29,400
and what's not longer relevant. 
Whereas Ruth Berkowitz said no, 

748
00:37:29,400 --> 00:37:32,160
that was a disaster in a sense 
the codification because it 

749
00:37:32,160 --> 00:37:34,840
wasn't allowing it to be 
flexible to deal with the 

750
00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:36,720
changes that are happening in 
each in each generation. 

751
00:37:36,720 --> 00:37:39,440
So they find connection problem 
in some ways, rejection others 

752
00:37:39,640 --> 00:37:40,480
it's. 
Complicated. 

753
00:37:42,120 --> 00:37:44,640
Yeah, that is very interesting. 
OK. 

754
00:37:46,520 --> 00:37:52,120
And then on a on a heavier a 
question on a heavier node and I

755
00:37:52,120 --> 00:37:55,720
imagine I can already see that 
this is we're going to interplay

756
00:37:55,720 --> 00:37:57,920
it again. 
How do they differ in their 

757
00:37:57,920 --> 00:38:00,760
understanding of evil, in 
particularly the Shua? 

758
00:38:01,760 --> 00:38:06,640
So they both approached the 
Shoah in in some way similar 

759
00:38:06,640 --> 00:38:07,520
ways. 
You can see some similar 

760
00:38:07,520 --> 00:38:10,040
language quoting the same Naveen
and things like that and their 

761
00:38:10,040 --> 00:38:14,200
essays that. 
Salvage most famously discusses 

762
00:38:14,200 --> 00:38:20,960
it in in Codedito fake and the 
while Berkowitz who was staying 

763
00:38:20,960 --> 00:38:22,760
in. 
Europe longer than the rough so 

764
00:38:22,760 --> 00:38:27,240
he it for salvage. 
A lot of this was like a sense 

765
00:38:27,240 --> 00:38:28,440
of. 
Eulogy of the Generation. 

766
00:38:28,440 --> 00:38:29,680
That he lost his family. 
That he lost. 

767
00:38:29,680 --> 00:38:34,040
But Berkowitz was in. 
He was in Berlin. 

768
00:38:34,160 --> 00:38:36,520
Later at the once the Nazis had 
common power. 

769
00:38:36,680 --> 00:38:39,480
He was in Leeds during the war, 
so he was in. 

770
00:38:39,680 --> 00:38:41,760
You know, England and he was 
more exposed. 

771
00:38:41,760 --> 00:38:42,600
To it. 
So I think it's a little. 

772
00:38:42,600 --> 00:38:44,320
More, you know. 
Fresh for him. 

773
00:38:44,320 --> 00:38:52,280
But they both have similarities.
They both are careful to give 

774
00:38:52,280 --> 00:38:53,720
intellectual understanding to 
the shore. 

775
00:38:54,920 --> 00:38:58,680
They don't want to give say we 
understand why things happen 

776
00:38:58,880 --> 00:39:01,120
that goes back into this again, 
sort of understanding what God 

777
00:39:01,120 --> 00:39:03,240
is doing. 
By the way, one thing very 

778
00:39:03,240 --> 00:39:07,000
similar, I should point out, 
they both similarly similarly 

779
00:39:07,000 --> 00:39:11,480
reject the Rambam when it comes 
to, you know, the what they call

780
00:39:11,480 --> 00:39:13,440
like the scholastic approach to 
discovering God. 

781
00:39:13,800 --> 00:39:15,680
They don't believe you can 
discover God through through 

782
00:39:15,680 --> 00:39:18,520
proofs and and things like that.
They both both were Salvagek and

783
00:39:18,520 --> 00:39:21,600
and Berkowitz reject that they 
don't think they they were 

784
00:39:21,800 --> 00:39:24,120
modern philosophers in that 
sense, where Kant basically 

785
00:39:24,120 --> 00:39:26,720
proved that that was impossible 
and they accept they both 

786
00:39:26,720 --> 00:39:29,160
accepted that approach. 
So they wouldn't, you know, the 

787
00:39:29,160 --> 00:39:31,800
issues both of them were in the 
clean and there are things that 

788
00:39:31,800 --> 00:39:34,440
were Robin talks about how you 
can discover God that that they 

789
00:39:34,440 --> 00:39:37,120
reject. 
And so that it's a similar type 

790
00:39:37,120 --> 00:39:39,040
of thing with why they reject 
the ability to understand why 

791
00:39:39,040 --> 00:39:42,080
God, why the the nature of evil 
in the world. 

792
00:39:42,080 --> 00:39:43,840
You can't understand it on a on 
a philosophical level. 

793
00:39:43,840 --> 00:39:46,560
They both said that. 
Like in existential, they were 

794
00:39:46,560 --> 00:39:49,560
into they they they went more 
towards the existential. 

795
00:39:50,640 --> 00:39:54,520
So I don't know if I, I mean, 
yes, in a sense certainly where 

796
00:39:54,520 --> 00:39:56,160
Salvatrik did. 
I mean, I think he's, you know, 

797
00:39:56,200 --> 00:39:58,200
I think you can definitely 
define him as an, as an 

798
00:39:58,200 --> 00:40:02,720
existentialist. 
Salvatrik basically said there's

799
00:40:02,720 --> 00:40:04,760
no answers. 
And this goes back to him 

800
00:40:04,760 --> 00:40:07,480
looking at everything through 
the prism of Halafa, right? 

801
00:40:07,560 --> 00:40:11,000
You don't need to know the why. 
To do the halacha, you don't 

802
00:40:11,000 --> 00:40:14,920
need to know the reason for any 
mitzvah and you just need to do 

803
00:40:14,920 --> 00:40:17,720
it. 
So salvatrix says look at, look 

804
00:40:17,720 --> 00:40:21,400
at the Shah. 
I don't know what the reason. 

805
00:40:21,400 --> 00:40:24,040
For the Shah was why God let 
this happen or you know the. 

806
00:40:24,400 --> 00:40:25,360
There's a punishment, none of 
that. 

807
00:40:25,720 --> 00:40:29,080
But he says that there are 
certain understandings that we 

808
00:40:29,080 --> 00:40:31,520
need to take from from learn the
lessons. 

809
00:40:31,520 --> 00:40:33,360
So we have to do what is the 
question is what? 

810
00:40:33,600 --> 00:40:35,800
What do I need to do now that 
this suffering has happened to 

811
00:40:35,800 --> 00:40:37,520
me? 
We need to have a Jewish state, 

812
00:40:37,520 --> 00:40:39,280
we need to have an army, we need
to defend ourselves, we need to 

813
00:40:39,280 --> 00:40:42,080
fight out the Semitism. 
All these things are halacha 

814
00:40:42,080 --> 00:40:45,480
questions in the like I said, 
small H talacha, like that's 

815
00:40:45,480 --> 00:40:47,240
alacha alacha. 
What do you how do you deal with

816
00:40:47,320 --> 00:40:54,160
a a disaster like the Shoah? 
Now, Ruberkowitz also says that 

817
00:40:54,160 --> 00:40:58,520
there's no answer in terms of 
like the question of Sudi 

818
00:40:58,520 --> 00:40:59,720
Guerrello and like why things 
happen. 

819
00:40:59,720 --> 00:41:02,760
But he says if there is an 
answer and there's no 

820
00:41:02,760 --> 00:41:04,680
philosophical, he says no 
philosophical answer, but there 

821
00:41:04,680 --> 00:41:08,960
is an answer, but it's found in 
history, it's found in the 

822
00:41:08,960 --> 00:41:11,280
survival of the Jewish people, 
right? 

823
00:41:11,280 --> 00:41:14,040
So he says he, he said that the 
dilemma cannot be resolved on 

824
00:41:14,040 --> 00:41:16,760
the intellectual level alone. 
Yet the Zeema was resolved not 

825
00:41:16,760 --> 00:41:18,840
in theory, not on the 
philosophical hypothetical 

826
00:41:18,840 --> 00:41:21,120
level, but strange enough in 
history itself. 

827
00:41:21,520 --> 00:41:24,840
God's unconvincing presence in 
history, meaning in general, you

828
00:41:24,840 --> 00:41:26,240
don't see God anywhere in 
history, if you look at all 

829
00:41:26,440 --> 00:41:29,160
terrible things, is testified 
through the survival of Israel. 

830
00:41:29,160 --> 00:41:31,080
So his answer, he says, if you 
want to know what happened, 

831
00:41:31,080 --> 00:41:33,800
well, Israel survived. 
That's your answer. 

832
00:41:34,280 --> 00:41:35,840
You know, it's, it's a 
complicated answer. 

833
00:41:36,120 --> 00:41:38,720
It's not like giving a 
justification, certainly, but it

834
00:41:38,720 --> 00:41:41,360
is saying, OK, we haven't. 
It's it's this is this is 

835
00:41:41,360 --> 00:41:42,640
something Rosalvechi wouldn't 
have accepted. 

836
00:41:42,640 --> 00:41:48,200
He wouldn't accepted to say that
Israel was the answer in history

837
00:41:48,200 --> 00:41:49,720
would be giving an answer to 
this question. 

838
00:41:49,720 --> 00:41:54,080
He, he says that like Rosalvechi
said, he called you a fake. 

839
00:41:54,080 --> 00:41:58,200
He said talking about the ideal 
approach is devoid of the 

840
00:41:58,200 --> 00:42:01,160
slightest speculative 
metaphysical coloration. 

841
00:42:01,560 --> 00:42:03,040
The center of. 
Gravity shifts from the causal 

842
00:42:03,040 --> 00:42:04,720
and teleological to its 
practical aspect. 

843
00:42:04,720 --> 00:42:05,800
He's only talking about what to 
do now. 

844
00:42:05,800 --> 00:42:09,360
He's not trying to understand 
God at all With with Berkowitz, 

845
00:42:09,920 --> 00:42:11,960
we can't again, we can't look 
into we can't understand what's 

846
00:42:11,960 --> 00:42:14,920
God's motivations, but we can 
understand what God did right. 

847
00:42:14,920 --> 00:42:17,280
In other words, we can 
understand that he the God after

848
00:42:17,280 --> 00:42:20,200
the show or the show. 
I guess I already, you know, 

849
00:42:20,400 --> 00:42:23,760
this is just the Zionist 
movement was saying, OK, God is 

850
00:42:23,760 --> 00:42:25,840
still in history. 
He didn't give up on us and 

851
00:42:25,840 --> 00:42:28,440
that's where you can see that 
the you know, the the gods, the 

852
00:42:28,440 --> 00:42:30,000
God is still. 
Involved in our lives. 

853
00:42:30,320 --> 00:42:33,160
It's like a, it's like a Shem's 
answer to Moshe, which is like, 

854
00:42:33,280 --> 00:42:36,600
you can't see my face and live, 
but you can understand when 

855
00:42:36,600 --> 00:42:39,240
you're looking back right on the
back of me, you can see, you 

856
00:42:39,280 --> 00:42:42,560
can, you can piece together the 
purpose after the fact, but 

857
00:42:42,560 --> 00:42:44,840
while it's happening, while 
you're facing it, it's, it's 

858
00:42:44,840 --> 00:42:48,200
never going to be clear, right? 
So that's a, that's a very 

859
00:42:48,200 --> 00:42:50,760
interesting example, but it's 
the particular understanding of 

860
00:42:50,760 --> 00:42:52,400
that, of, of that passage of 
Moshe. 

861
00:42:52,840 --> 00:42:55,360
Russovacic famously talks about 
the example of the tapestry. 

862
00:42:56,240 --> 00:42:59,280
So he says that it's imagine 
looking at a tapestry from the 

863
00:42:59,280 --> 00:43:01,000
back from the backside. 
I don't know. 

864
00:43:01,000 --> 00:43:02,760
I'm curious if salvation 
mentioned what you said, but 

865
00:43:02,760 --> 00:43:03,880
look at the tapestry on the 
backside. 

866
00:43:03,880 --> 00:43:05,400
You have no idea what you're 
looking at, right? 

867
00:43:05,400 --> 00:43:06,880
It's a mess. 
But the other side makes sense. 

868
00:43:07,320 --> 00:43:08,960
But he I don't think what 
salvation would even get to the 

869
00:43:08,960 --> 00:43:10,560
point where you say looking 
back, you don't even understand 

870
00:43:10,560 --> 00:43:13,240
because he said the problem with
if you look at the causal 

871
00:43:13,240 --> 00:43:16,160
approach, what what the causal 
was, then you start to make 

872
00:43:16,160 --> 00:43:19,080
claims on God that you that you 
can't justify. 

873
00:43:19,080 --> 00:43:21,080
And so he just saying, OK, I 
need to know what to do now. 

874
00:43:22,920 --> 00:43:25,200
Fascinating. 
So can you explain their 

875
00:43:25,200 --> 00:43:28,600
different understandings of the 
nature and purpose of Halacha? 

876
00:43:28,600 --> 00:43:31,280
Right. 
So first of all, that's I, I'm 

877
00:43:31,280 --> 00:43:33,760
not even sure that the there was
salvage would agree to question 

878
00:43:33,760 --> 00:43:36,040
the purpose of halacha. 
That may be something he might 

879
00:43:36,040 --> 00:43:38,360
reject, you know, as a question,
but I, I, you know, I think it's

880
00:43:38,360 --> 00:43:42,040
important to to write about it. 
Berkowitz's book was his his He 

881
00:43:42,040 --> 00:43:46,280
wrote a book in English called 
Not in Heaven, but it's a book 

882
00:43:46,280 --> 00:43:48,600
in Hebrew, which is a larger and
it's more like kind of a. 

883
00:43:49,680 --> 00:43:52,800
I, I guess a little bit more 
heavier tone in terms of like 

884
00:43:52,840 --> 00:43:54,520
traditional resources, because 
it's not written. 

885
00:43:54,520 --> 00:43:56,960
It's not written more for like 
a, you know, some of the 

886
00:43:57,040 --> 00:43:59,080
audience of people who 
understand the, the, you know, 

887
00:43:59,160 --> 00:44:02,400
traditional biblical text. 
He called that halacha, Kohava 

888
00:44:02,400 --> 00:44:05,800
Tafkida, the, the halacha, it's 
power and its purpose. 

889
00:44:06,280 --> 00:44:08,720
And you know, the Russell, I 
don't know if this would agree 

890
00:44:08,720 --> 00:44:11,920
with that question of purpose. 
So I'll start with Russell 

891
00:44:11,920 --> 00:44:14,000
Vision Rus salvation, viewed 
history. 

892
00:44:14,000 --> 00:44:19,000
As a threat to halacha, he he's 
following his grandfather and 

893
00:44:19,000 --> 00:44:20,680
his great grandfather who. 
Who? 

894
00:44:21,480 --> 00:44:25,320
Saw movements like the reform as
being a threat to as as using 

895
00:44:25,320 --> 00:44:28,080
history as a as a as a way to an
excuse to change Aloha. 

896
00:44:30,120 --> 00:44:32,360
So if salvage writes that not 
only could history not be 

897
00:44:32,360 --> 00:44:35,240
concerned Aloha, but psychology 
couldn't be a concerned Aloha 

898
00:44:35,240 --> 00:44:38,120
sociology. 
Haloha needs to operate 

899
00:44:38,120 --> 00:44:41,160
independently of those factors. 
It's a priori it's it's just 

900
00:44:41,360 --> 00:44:45,320
math and science. 
The Haloha itself is the goal of

901
00:44:45,320 --> 00:44:45,840
the. 
Haloha. 

902
00:44:47,520 --> 00:44:49,160
No external ideas, even noble 
ones. 

903
00:44:49,160 --> 00:44:51,160
He says even the most noble 
ideas can't shouldn't be a 

904
00:44:51,160 --> 00:44:53,480
factor for the post sake. 
And by the way, I think what's 

905
00:44:53,480 --> 00:44:56,960
also important to notice is that
for, for Sylvacic, there's no 

906
00:44:56,960 --> 00:44:59,120
difference between Torah and 
Halaha. 

907
00:44:59,800 --> 00:45:01,840
There's no, there's no daylight 
between them. 

908
00:45:01,840 --> 00:45:03,400
They're based, they're they're 
essentially the same thing. 

909
00:45:04,200 --> 00:45:06,480
Or or part of one. 
You know, big hole, but there's 

910
00:45:06,480 --> 00:45:10,720
no difference. 
Rosalvatian wrote an essay which

911
00:45:10,720 --> 00:45:13,120
is somewhat even controversial 
even when it came out and 

912
00:45:13,120 --> 00:45:14,560
probably. 
One of the more controversial. 

913
00:45:14,560 --> 00:45:15,880
You know you should. 
Think of a sense of like, 

914
00:45:16,080 --> 00:45:18,920
controversial in terms of, you 
know, very controversial by 

915
00:45:18,920 --> 00:45:20,440
people who didn't. 
Accept him in general, but this 

916
00:45:20,480 --> 00:45:22,640
is even by his followers. 
Founded Founded. 

917
00:45:22,640 --> 00:45:25,280
Somewhat controversial. 
It was an essay called Mato 

918
00:45:25,320 --> 00:45:28,640
Dehmidod and it was a eulogy for
his uncle. 

919
00:45:29,560 --> 00:45:33,520
Who gets some example of velvil?
Velvil, the Brisker of. 

920
00:45:34,040 --> 00:45:37,320
And in it he talks a lot of his 
grandfather, and he compares 

921
00:45:37,320 --> 00:45:40,480
Kant's approach to philosophy to
his grandfather's approach to 

922
00:45:40,480 --> 00:45:43,920
Holocaust again. 
That's also a little, he's 

923
00:45:44,080 --> 00:45:46,760
saying like. 
You know Kant, but I don't know.

924
00:45:46,840 --> 00:45:49,880
I, I find that stuff remarkable.
I personally, by the way, I, I 

925
00:45:49,880 --> 00:45:52,560
wrote an essay, a different 
essay where I talked about how 

926
00:45:54,040 --> 00:45:56,840
when reading one of her solid 
matrix works, I, I felt sad 

927
00:45:57,400 --> 00:45:59,120
because he loved the Rambam so 
much as a kid. 

928
00:45:59,120 --> 00:46:01,720
He could defend the Rambam. 
He was saying he would want to 

929
00:46:01,720 --> 00:46:03,440
make sure that he'd be able to 
defend the Rambam from the 

930
00:46:03,440 --> 00:46:04,640
driver. 
Didn't you know where his father

931
00:46:04,640 --> 00:46:06,320
would be able to? 
But I thought you could defend 

932
00:46:06,320 --> 00:46:08,120
the Rama for the rival, but you 
couldn't defend the Rama from 

933
00:46:08,120 --> 00:46:09,560
Kant. 
Like I felt like this is, you 

934
00:46:09,600 --> 00:46:11,440
know, really I felt it was 
painful. 

935
00:46:11,440 --> 00:46:12,800
Just you know, you view the Rama
as his friend. 

936
00:46:12,800 --> 00:46:15,520
He talks about the Rama anyway 
in in my definitely do it. 

937
00:46:15,520 --> 00:46:17,440
He said it's it's he he he talks
about Kant. 

938
00:46:17,440 --> 00:46:22,120
He talks about Rufayim, his 
grandfather, and he says it's 

939
00:46:22,120 --> 00:46:27,640
like math, a math question. 
Can be inspired by an event in 

940
00:46:27,640 --> 00:46:28,280
the real. 
World. 

941
00:46:28,880 --> 00:46:31,240
But the question can't influence
the answer. 

942
00:46:31,240 --> 00:46:34,600
It's not like, OK, 2 + 2 = 4 
because you have two, you know, 

943
00:46:34,600 --> 00:46:36,600
you have two this and two that. 
Then you want to, but it can't 

944
00:46:36,600 --> 00:46:38,720
be like, well, I really wish 
that I had more, so I'm going to

945
00:46:38,720 --> 00:46:42,040
make this one 2 + 2 = 5 because 
you know, I really need the 

946
00:46:42,040 --> 00:46:43,280
extra or whatever. 
I'm, you know, adding up. 

947
00:46:43,280 --> 00:46:50,920
It's it's it's independent and 
he in terms of the teleology of 

948
00:46:50,920 --> 00:46:53,440
a ha, the purpose of a ha in in 
lonely man of faith that Rufs 

949
00:46:53,440 --> 00:46:59,120
Olovatrix says that it's the 
teleology of a ha is the 

950
00:47:00,920 --> 00:47:05,840
paradoxical, paradoxical yet 
magnificent dialectric which 

951
00:47:05,840 --> 00:47:07,840
underlies the halachic gesture. 
And if I understand that 

952
00:47:07,840 --> 00:47:10,000
correctly, he's basically saying
the purpose of Aloha itself. 

953
00:47:10,000 --> 00:47:12,360
You don't need another purpose. 
There's no additional purpose, 

954
00:47:12,960 --> 00:47:16,360
right In Aloha man. 
He says the theoretical Aloha, 

955
00:47:16,360 --> 00:47:18,640
not the practical decision, the 
ideal creation, not the 

956
00:47:18,640 --> 00:47:21,120
empirical one, represent the 
logging of Aloha man. 

957
00:47:21,120 --> 00:47:22,880
They're just trying to work in a
laboratory. 

958
00:47:23,640 --> 00:47:25,600
But the laboratory isn't the 
actual isn't the isn't the 

959
00:47:25,600 --> 00:47:27,880
Michelle he uses. 
He uses a very significant 

960
00:47:27,880 --> 00:47:29,040
Michelle. 
This is Michelle I actually 

961
00:47:29,040 --> 00:47:31,840
heard about first time. 
When I was in the Shiva some 35 

962
00:47:31,840 --> 00:47:33,760
years ago and it it, it, it 
stuck with me. 

963
00:47:35,480 --> 00:47:39,520
He talks about it like a 
satellite, where the thing that 

964
00:47:39,520 --> 00:47:42,200
launches the satellite to Earth,
you know something? 

965
00:47:42,200 --> 00:47:44,920
Going on Earth, but once it's in
orbit, it is it's no longer 

966
00:47:44,920 --> 00:47:48,320
affected by what's by what's 
happening in its path in its 

967
00:47:48,320 --> 00:47:50,280
orbit. 
It's it's entirely independent 

968
00:47:50,280 --> 00:47:52,760
of it. 
This is the example he uses in 

969
00:47:52,760 --> 00:47:57,360
in modern ethnic mode. 
He says that in the same way the

970
00:47:57,360 --> 00:48:02,640
that the the the satellite 
revolves or, you know, orbits 

971
00:48:02,640 --> 00:48:06,720
the Earth independently, so too 
does the halaqa question. 

972
00:48:06,720 --> 00:48:08,400
Also, it's might have been 
launched. 

973
00:48:08,480 --> 00:48:09,840
You know, somebody came 
throughout and asked this 

974
00:48:09,840 --> 00:48:14,160
chicken kosher. 
But but the once he's he's in 

975
00:48:14,160 --> 00:48:16,600
that world, it's no longer 
affected the decisions on Earth 

976
00:48:16,600 --> 00:48:20,920
can no longer the considerations
on Earth can no longer affect 

977
00:48:20,920 --> 00:48:23,560
the local decision. 
It has to be has to be 

978
00:48:23,560 --> 00:48:29,520
independent of that. 
Berkowitz again, I'm sure that 

979
00:48:29,520 --> 00:48:32,560
this is this one. 
I don't think is is is a jab or 

980
00:48:32,560 --> 00:48:37,080
a proxy, but he named his work 
in English, not in heaven famous

981
00:48:37,080 --> 00:48:39,720
Lower Shamani. 
He rejects the approach that 

982
00:48:39,920 --> 00:48:45,320
it's based on something that the
Halachi is in orbit, is in, is 

983
00:48:45,320 --> 00:48:47,280
distant from us. 
It's independent of what's going

984
00:48:47,280 --> 00:48:48,400
on. 
It's no, no, no, it's not. 

985
00:48:48,400 --> 00:48:50,760
It's supposed to be what's 
happening on Earth. 

986
00:48:50,760 --> 00:48:53,600
It has to it. 
It has the Halafa has to to 

987
00:48:54,800 --> 00:48:56,280
reflect to the change in 
reality. 

988
00:48:56,280 --> 00:48:58,920
That's exactly the that's that's
what Torres Chabalpet is. 

989
00:48:59,720 --> 00:49:03,080
It's if we don't have that and 
we're just like carrots, we're 

990
00:49:03,080 --> 00:49:05,120
carrots like thrash Chabalpet. 
But we think things can change. 

991
00:49:05,120 --> 00:49:07,400
But we have Torres Chabalpet 
because it allows us to adjust 

992
00:49:07,760 --> 00:49:10,880
to the situations that we're in.
And he says that that was 

993
00:49:11,200 --> 00:49:14,280
definitely true in the galut, 
but in the golu there was not 

994
00:49:14,280 --> 00:49:16,280
that many things that. 
Could affect us because we a lot

995
00:49:16,280 --> 00:49:17,440
of these things were out of our 
hands, right. 

996
00:49:17,440 --> 00:49:21,360
We didn't have control over the 
political and and social and 

997
00:49:21,360 --> 00:49:24,400
economic things around since we 
have our own state and we turn 

998
00:49:24,400 --> 00:49:27,520
to artists around and it's now 
it's really a danger if they 

999
00:49:27,520 --> 00:49:29,840
have still fossilized like it 
would have been. 

1000
00:49:30,240 --> 00:49:32,560
In the Golu and we have to 
revitalize the thrash little 

1001
00:49:32,560 --> 00:49:38,600
bit. 
So he says that if if Russovajic

1002
00:49:38,600 --> 00:49:42,640
said that the the noble ideas 
can't be factors or Berkowitz 

1003
00:49:42,640 --> 00:49:45,520
says that they must be factors, 
right? 

1004
00:49:45,520 --> 00:49:48,040
And he gives the example of 
Tanur Shalakhnai, right? 

1005
00:49:48,040 --> 00:49:52,960
The story of the The Lotus 
Shalimy and and how. 

1006
00:49:53,080 --> 00:49:54,560
You know when they when they 
went to be. 

1007
00:49:54,560 --> 00:49:57,120
Madras and they were asking 
could the what can determine 

1008
00:49:57,120 --> 00:49:59,240
Alihak and they asked God for 
the determine the bottcole and 

1009
00:49:59,240 --> 00:50:02,280
everything and they and they 
said he says no, they it has to 

1010
00:50:02,280 --> 00:50:06,800
be determined by what's going on
earth and it's Lobo shamimy and 

1011
00:50:10,600 --> 00:50:14,160
it it it's that's the example of
where the the the halacha has to

1012
00:50:14,160 --> 00:50:18,080
stay on on earth. 
It has it He says that the 

1013
00:50:19,480 --> 00:50:22,040
Berkwood says, for example, the 
transformation of the oral 

1014
00:50:22,040 --> 00:50:24,840
torrent into a text. 
It was an unavoidable violation 

1015
00:50:24,840 --> 00:50:27,600
of the ethics of Aloha when the 
spoken word was forced into a 

1016
00:50:27,600 --> 00:50:30,760
straitjacket of a written mold. 
It was spiritual calamity of the

1017
00:50:30,760 --> 00:50:33,360
first magnitude Orthodoxy, 
meaning his time. 

1018
00:50:33,760 --> 00:50:35,800
He's in a sense halacha in a 
straitjacket. 

1019
00:50:36,280 --> 00:50:38,720
We become carrots of this new 
written Torah, written for a 

1020
00:50:38,720 --> 00:50:39,800
meaning like the Shokan or 
whatever. 

1021
00:50:39,800 --> 00:50:44,280
It is right that if Rosalvej 
didn't see any daylight between 

1022
00:50:44,280 --> 00:50:48,880
Torah and Halahan, Berkowitz 
said there absolutely is 

1023
00:50:48,880 --> 00:50:51,440
daylight between the two. 
For Berkowitz, you have a 

1024
00:50:51,440 --> 00:50:54,880
process. 
The halaha is the application of

1025
00:50:55,440 --> 00:50:57,480
three things, he says. 
There are three things. 

1026
00:50:57,480 --> 00:50:59,000
You have the do you have the 
mitzvot in the Torah? 

1027
00:51:00,120 --> 00:51:03,640
You have the values that the 
Torah. 

1028
00:51:04,480 --> 00:51:09,880
Guides us in dark air dark. 
Eidola Bahaiba and you know all 

1029
00:51:09,880 --> 00:51:13,040
these all these different 
guidance guidelines dark E 

1030
00:51:13,040 --> 00:51:18,280
Shalom and then you have the 
particular historical situation 

1031
00:51:18,280 --> 00:51:19,200
that. 
They're living in. 

1032
00:51:19,480 --> 00:51:22,440
And put those in the big pot and
mix them together and that's 

1033
00:51:22,440 --> 00:51:24,240
where you get dalaha. 
Dalaha isn't isn't. 

1034
00:51:24,320 --> 00:51:27,560
Torah is what needs halacha to 
apply it, which is why it's 

1035
00:51:27,560 --> 00:51:29,280
relevant in every generation. 
If it wasn't that way, it would 

1036
00:51:29,280 --> 00:51:31,600
no longer be relevant. 
And that's for, so for 

1037
00:51:31,600 --> 00:51:37,080
Berkowitz, that's the, that was 
what makes the halacha vital and

1038
00:51:37,080 --> 00:51:40,120
alive is his ability to react to
the changing things. 

1039
00:51:40,120 --> 00:51:43,880
Now, it's important to note, 
Berkowitz, for any of you 

1040
00:51:43,880 --> 00:51:46,640
listeners out there, was a 
committed Orthodox Jew. 

1041
00:51:46,680 --> 00:51:49,760
He was committed to Aloha. 
If you he, there's, you know, 

1042
00:51:49,760 --> 00:51:53,320
both from his family members and
his self and everything about 

1043
00:51:53,320 --> 00:51:55,920
him, He was fully committed to 
Haloha, to the Aloha, to the 

1044
00:51:55,920 --> 00:51:58,200
Orthodoxy. 
But he felt the Orthodoxy was 

1045
00:51:58,200 --> 00:51:59,040
actually going down the wrong 
path. 

1046
00:51:59,040 --> 00:52:02,520
He was abandoning Haloha in a 
way so unlike the people who are

1047
00:52:02,520 --> 00:52:05,400
looking in other movements, 
reform conservative movements 

1048
00:52:05,400 --> 00:52:09,160
who are looking to use a circle,
circumstance, circumstance as an

1049
00:52:09,160 --> 00:52:11,240
opportunity to move. 
Away from Aloha. 

1050
00:52:11,760 --> 00:52:13,680
Berkovitz was looking at 
historical circumstances as a 

1051
00:52:13,680 --> 00:52:17,040
way to to deepen our commitment 
to Aloha. 

1052
00:52:17,040 --> 00:52:20,160
Because the only way it could be
continued to be relevant is if 

1053
00:52:20,160 --> 00:52:23,440
we look at the changes and, and 
the way this is the way that 

1054
00:52:23,440 --> 00:52:25,360
Aloha been done forever. 
You know you have. 

1055
00:52:25,400 --> 00:52:27,360
You'd go to a rabbi. 
And you'd ask him a question. 

1056
00:52:27,360 --> 00:52:29,040
And it might be give a different
answer than he gave. 

1057
00:52:29,640 --> 00:52:30,960
Different people and different 
answers. 

1058
00:52:30,960 --> 00:52:34,200
And it wasn't showing the the 
the Torah was less valid. 

1059
00:52:34,200 --> 00:52:38,040
It was showing the the Torah was
was could survive in every in 

1060
00:52:38,040 --> 00:52:43,080
every possible scenario. 
Dynamic dynamic. 

1061
00:52:43,200 --> 00:52:44,240
That's that's the difference. 
Yeah. 

1062
00:52:44,840 --> 00:52:49,480
OK. 
All right, And how do you view 

1063
00:52:49,480 --> 00:52:53,920
their different legacies? 
It's well, if Soloveitchik 

1064
00:52:55,320 --> 00:52:59,880
gained more prominence than 
Berkowitz, more known, more 

1065
00:53:00,640 --> 00:53:03,920
celebrated in a way, or more 
studied, maybe that's a better 

1066
00:53:03,920 --> 00:53:06,200
word, right? 
Why do you think that is? 

1067
00:53:06,520 --> 00:53:08,760
And why do you think that 
Roberkowitz should be considered

1068
00:53:08,760 --> 00:53:09,880
more relevant today? 
So. 

1069
00:53:11,400 --> 00:53:12,560
First of all, I can't tell you 
why. 

1070
00:53:12,560 --> 00:53:16,120
I mean, it is like a 
teleological question of why the

1071
00:53:16,120 --> 00:53:18,480
rub was more successful than, 
you know, than Roberkowitz. 

1072
00:53:18,480 --> 00:53:21,720
It might have been chance, 
historical circumstances, 

1073
00:53:21,840 --> 00:53:24,640
personality, and you know, 
decisions that they made to go 

1074
00:53:24,640 --> 00:53:31,880
to one place or another. 
I think that it's incredibly 

1075
00:53:32,160 --> 00:53:35,520
important for me to emphasize 
that Rev Salvage did an amazing 

1076
00:53:36,000 --> 00:53:38,440
thing in America together with 
others, but Rev Salvage 

1077
00:53:39,480 --> 00:53:42,720
certainly did is that he was, he
kind of saved Orthodoxy in 

1078
00:53:42,720 --> 00:53:45,160
America and maybe, you know, in 
other parts of the world as 

1079
00:53:45,160 --> 00:53:48,760
well. 
By taking a more, you can call 

1080
00:53:48,760 --> 00:53:52,200
it extreme. 
You can call it determine 

1081
00:53:52,200 --> 00:53:54,760
whatever, whatever the word you 
want to use is stands on the 

1082
00:53:54,760 --> 00:53:58,920
influx of on the on the 
formalism of halacha. 

1083
00:53:59,800 --> 00:54:03,240
He wasn't going to allow all 
these changes to be, to come in 

1084
00:54:03,240 --> 00:54:07,720
and undermine Orthodoxy. 
And, and it's hard for us to 

1085
00:54:07,720 --> 00:54:11,400
know now because, you know, we, 
we live in a time when Orthodoxy

1086
00:54:11,400 --> 00:54:14,520
is on the ascent and you can get
a kosher of, you know, meal in 

1087
00:54:14,520 --> 00:54:16,320
every city and you can, there's 
arrows in there. 

1088
00:54:16,920 --> 00:54:18,080
We don't, we don't feel a 
threat. 

1089
00:54:18,080 --> 00:54:23,040
But in the 1950s, it was not 
like that 1940s fifties people 

1090
00:54:23,040 --> 00:54:24,360
thought Orthogher was just going
to disappear. 

1091
00:54:25,080 --> 00:54:27,560
And it was through the efforts 
of people like Rav Salvatrik, 

1092
00:54:27,560 --> 00:54:29,440
who said, no, I'm going to put 
I'm going to draw a line in the 

1093
00:54:29,440 --> 00:54:31,000
sand. 
There's not going to be mixed 

1094
00:54:31,000 --> 00:54:32,360
seating and there's not going to
be driving the Shoal. 

1095
00:54:32,360 --> 00:54:34,720
And there's not going to be, you
know, many of these changes 

1096
00:54:34,720 --> 00:54:37,480
that, you know, that people want
to, to allow. 

1097
00:54:37,800 --> 00:54:39,760
And by doing that, he said, OK, 
Orthodoxy can survive and 

1098
00:54:39,760 --> 00:54:42,360
orthodoxy can thrive. 
And that was really important. 

1099
00:54:42,360 --> 00:54:45,160
That was a continuation of what 
his grandfather had done. 

1100
00:54:45,160 --> 00:54:48,160
And, and his great grandfather 
and, and in that he was, he was 

1101
00:54:48,160 --> 00:54:50,920
different than them in the sense
that he, he embraced Zionism, 

1102
00:54:51,360 --> 00:54:53,240
but he was similar to them. 
And the fact that he realized 

1103
00:54:53,720 --> 00:54:58,840
history could be a threat to, to
halacha and his work. 

1104
00:54:59,560 --> 00:55:01,720
I don't know, you know, I don't 
think you the three of us. 

1105
00:55:01,720 --> 00:55:04,000
And who knows else would have 
been be, be sitting there today 

1106
00:55:05,240 --> 00:55:07,320
in an Orthodox world. 
If, if, if Lajic hadn't made 

1107
00:55:07,320 --> 00:55:11,920
those hadn't made those efforts 
and not in a fully already way. 

1108
00:55:11,920 --> 00:55:13,400
In other words, he didn't have 
to say we're going to be 

1109
00:55:13,400 --> 00:55:14,800
isolated from the rest of the 
world to do that. 

1110
00:55:14,840 --> 00:55:16,200
That you could do. 
But then how would that survive 

1111
00:55:16,240 --> 00:55:17,120
either? 
That doesn't that doesn't 

1112
00:55:17,120 --> 00:55:18,240
necessarily show that that could
work. 

1113
00:55:18,680 --> 00:55:20,040
He was shown you can be modern 
orthotics. 

1114
00:55:20,040 --> 00:55:21,880
You can be, I don't know if you 
use that word, but he could 

1115
00:55:21,880 --> 00:55:24,960
definitely you could be involved
in this world and still be 

1116
00:55:24,960 --> 00:55:28,920
committed to Aloha and study the
secular subjects, philosophy and

1117
00:55:28,920 --> 00:55:31,200
literature and everything else. 
And you're and you and you can 

1118
00:55:31,320 --> 00:55:33,240
be committed to to Judaism 
without giving up on your 

1119
00:55:33,240 --> 00:55:34,960
halachic principles. 
So that's what we're solid age. 

1120
00:55:34,960 --> 00:55:38,400
And I think that was something 
that his students were able to 

1121
00:55:38,400 --> 00:55:39,880
carry out with him and that was 
something that they were, you 

1122
00:55:39,880 --> 00:55:42,000
know, his students and that was 
students, students and so on. 

1123
00:55:43,480 --> 00:55:47,080
And, and they, and that was 
probably important to his 

1124
00:55:47,080 --> 00:55:48,960
success, right? 
There's always, you know, to a 

1125
00:55:48,960 --> 00:55:52,240
degree conservatism, it's 
definitely lowercase, lowercase,

1126
00:55:52,240 --> 00:55:53,960
see conservative. 
But when you're, when you have a

1127
00:55:53,960 --> 00:55:56,760
kind of a, a lowercase 
conservative approach, you can 

1128
00:55:56,760 --> 00:55:59,120
people feel more comfortable. 
And so probably that to a large 

1129
00:55:59,120 --> 00:56:02,200
degree is what contributed to 
success. 

1130
00:56:03,720 --> 00:56:09,720
But I think that there's things 
going on now that, you know, 

1131
00:56:09,720 --> 00:56:12,640
they both died, you know, so 
they died in 1993 and Rickwood 

1132
00:56:12,640 --> 00:56:14,960
side in 1992 that they couldn't,
they didn't anticipate, they 

1133
00:56:14,960 --> 00:56:18,240
didn't see, they didn't fully 
see the survival of orthodoxy in

1134
00:56:18,240 --> 00:56:20,640
a way, even by the 90s, it was 
there, but it wasn't the same 

1135
00:56:20,640 --> 00:56:22,960
level that it that we see now 30
years later. 

1136
00:56:24,480 --> 00:56:26,320
What are the challenges? 
Orthodoxy, I don't think is 

1137
00:56:26,320 --> 00:56:27,880
threatened by the former 
conservative. 

1138
00:56:28,680 --> 00:56:30,480
That doesn't seem to me to be 
the threat. 

1139
00:56:30,920 --> 00:56:32,520
You know, they have, they have 
their lanes. 

1140
00:56:32,520 --> 00:56:34,360
We have our lanes. 
You know it's not I. 

1141
00:56:35,520 --> 00:56:37,400
Don't know. 
Maybe in some particular 

1142
00:56:37,400 --> 00:56:40,080
community here and there, but in
general we have a, you know, we 

1143
00:56:40,080 --> 00:56:42,400
have self-confidence to to say 
what we believe in and we follow

1144
00:56:42,400 --> 00:56:47,600
and so on. 
What is what has changed are 

1145
00:56:48,320 --> 00:56:52,960
this there's been a lot of the 
you know, the numbers of 

1146
00:56:52,960 --> 00:56:56,120
immigrants to Israel that has 
grown dramatically in the 

1147
00:56:56,120 --> 00:56:59,000
decades since they passed the 
importance of Israeli you should

1148
00:56:59,000 --> 00:57:01,760
vote and even when people don't 
don't live in America, it's like

1149
00:57:01,880 --> 00:57:04,240
we live in Israel, but they go 
to you should vote and major 

1150
00:57:04,240 --> 00:57:05,920
short and seminaries in Israel 
and they come back home. 

1151
00:57:06,160 --> 00:57:08,480
Suddenly Israel is much more 
central to Orthodoxy than have 

1152
00:57:08,480 --> 00:57:13,640
been in the past. 
And So what is the what is the 

1153
00:57:13,640 --> 00:57:17,160
challenge to orthodoxy today? 
I think it comes from people who

1154
00:57:17,160 --> 00:57:21,640
want to who are committed to 
Halahan, but they they want to 

1155
00:57:21,640 --> 00:57:24,680
have Aloha to fit their values 
as they understand them. 

1156
00:57:24,680 --> 00:57:27,080
It's not they're not like 
deciding all this Holocaust and 

1157
00:57:27,080 --> 00:57:30,040
programs will leave Orthodoxy 
and you can find it in all kinds

1158
00:57:30,040 --> 00:57:32,680
of ways and different and not 
always in the same boxes. 

1159
00:57:32,680 --> 00:57:35,160
You know, you can have how 
people wearing tail it. 

1160
00:57:35,200 --> 00:57:36,840
That was something that was kind
of bottom up. 

1161
00:57:36,840 --> 00:57:37,920
People decide they want to do 
it. 

1162
00:57:37,920 --> 00:57:40,120
No one forced you to wear tail 
on your seat. 

1163
00:57:42,040 --> 00:57:46,200
You could talk about kit nyot 
the way that ashrazim have come 

1164
00:57:46,200 --> 00:57:49,600
to some Ashrazim come to reject 
Kit Nyot harabite. 

1165
00:57:49,960 --> 00:57:51,560
Certainly in the news. 
These days, without going into 

1166
00:57:51,560 --> 00:57:54,600
any my own particular opinions 
about it is definitely a bottom 

1167
00:57:54,600 --> 00:57:55,960
up thing, right? 
The rabbis were saying no and 

1168
00:57:55,960 --> 00:57:58,120
people saying sure, I you know, 
I want to do it. 

1169
00:57:58,120 --> 00:57:59,760
It's important to me. 
It gives me spiritual value, 

1170
00:57:59,760 --> 00:58:02,040
whatever it. 
Is and and and. 

1171
00:58:02,080 --> 00:58:03,960
Probably most dramatically, all 
of them is the role of women in 

1172
00:58:03,960 --> 00:58:06,360
Judaism, right? 
You know the role of women in. 

1173
00:58:06,360 --> 00:58:09,360
Judaism, going to the army for 
religious girls, all these 

1174
00:58:09,360 --> 00:58:12,200
things. 
People aren't asking questions 

1175
00:58:12,200 --> 00:58:14,200
in the sense that they asked, 
you know, they didn't say, oh, 

1176
00:58:14,520 --> 00:58:16,000
can I do this? 
And if they say no, they're, 

1177
00:58:16,080 --> 00:58:18,400
they're moving forward and 
they're and they're leading, but

1178
00:58:18,400 --> 00:58:19,760
they're. 
Doing it out of a commitment to 

1179
00:58:19,760 --> 00:58:24,000
Aloha and for. 
That I think you need to, you 

1180
00:58:24,000 --> 00:58:30,120
need to have a halacha that 
responds to those changes 

1181
00:58:30,120 --> 00:58:32,400
because otherwise you're going 
to, you know, it's, it'll be, 

1182
00:58:32,560 --> 00:58:34,840
it'll be unchecked. 
You want to make sure that Aloha

1183
00:58:34,840 --> 00:58:37,120
system works and and, and and 
responds to it. 

1184
00:58:37,520 --> 00:58:40,520
And I think that this was 
historically the way that 

1185
00:58:40,520 --> 00:58:44,800
halacha worked right there. 
What before the Enlightenment, 

1186
00:58:44,800 --> 00:58:47,120
when people go to rabbi and ask 
them a question and you can see 

1187
00:58:47,120 --> 00:58:50,400
them open up to vote, you're 
going to see different answers 

1188
00:58:50,400 --> 00:58:52,480
for different generations. 
It wasn't like, you know, no 

1189
00:58:52,480 --> 00:58:54,080
one's going to be shocked to see
that. 

1190
00:58:54,760 --> 00:58:57,720
But then there became a crisis. 
The crisis was reacting to that 

1191
00:58:57,720 --> 00:58:59,880
crisis. 
I think while we're still having

1192
00:58:59,880 --> 00:59:01,560
issues with it, it's not the 
same as it was before. 

1193
00:59:01,560 --> 00:59:09,280
And so a a returning 
understanding the purpose of 

1194
00:59:09,280 --> 00:59:11,760
Halahan. 
Remember we talked about the 

1195
00:59:11,760 --> 00:59:14,280
instrumentalism. 
That's something that's missing.

1196
00:59:14,280 --> 00:59:17,520
You could talk about making, you
know, if you want to make and 

1197
00:59:18,000 --> 00:59:19,800
we're not going to politics, but
just people have an idea of how 

1198
00:59:19,800 --> 00:59:20,800
they want the Jewish state to 
run. 

1199
00:59:21,640 --> 00:59:24,240
How can Halaha Silver roll, 
Brookwood talked about all the 

1200
00:59:24,240 --> 00:59:26,120
time he was saying. 
You know the. 

1201
00:59:26,160 --> 00:59:28,160
Traffic law should be based on 
Halaha and you could have all 

1202
00:59:28,160 --> 00:59:30,600
the, you know, medical ethics 
and all these are things that 

1203
00:59:30,640 --> 00:59:34,280
has something to say about 
because the purpose is trying to

1204
00:59:34,280 --> 00:59:37,080
make the society better. 
So that's something that that's 

1205
00:59:37,080 --> 00:59:39,840
something that they both that I 
think that makes him relevant 

1206
00:59:39,840 --> 00:59:43,360
now in ways and I think that is.
Showing his his growing 

1207
00:59:43,360 --> 00:59:45,440
popularity, you know, you see 
people reading his books and 

1208
00:59:45,440 --> 00:59:46,960
some of the books, some of it 
just again, because books are 

1209
00:59:46,960 --> 00:59:50,960
recently published, they were 
books published by the Shalim 

1210
00:59:50,960 --> 00:59:52,520
Institute. 
And now Maggie has published 

1211
00:59:52,520 --> 00:59:54,800
some and others have published 
different works by him. 

1212
00:59:55,040 --> 00:59:58,280
There's Hagadot and Hagadahvis 
and a lot of different works. 

1213
00:59:58,960 --> 01:00:01,640
But I think. 
It's, it's, you know, the, the 

1214
01:00:01,760 --> 01:00:03,640
time is ripe in a way that 
hasn't been before. 

1215
01:00:05,320 --> 01:00:09,040
This was an amazing discussion. 
Thank you, really thank. 

1216
01:00:09,040 --> 01:00:12,280
You so much. 
And before we go again, if you 

1217
01:00:12,280 --> 01:00:14,000
could tell everybody where they 
could find you. 

1218
01:00:14,000 --> 01:00:17,280
If you want to plug anything, 
please let us know. 

1219
01:00:19,080 --> 01:00:22,760
Gosh. 
Well, I have essays out here or 

1220
01:00:22,760 --> 01:00:24,520
there. 
I guess you can just spell my 

1221
01:00:24,520 --> 01:00:27,080
name and you'll probably find I 
write a lot about Hebrew 

1222
01:00:27,080 --> 01:00:29,920
language and the origin of 
Hebrew words occasionally. 

1223
01:00:29,920 --> 01:00:33,640
Right now essays about Tanakh 
and Jewish philosophy. 

1224
01:00:35,960 --> 01:00:39,640
You know I will. 
Continue to find these topics of

1225
01:00:39,640 --> 01:00:42,120
interest and then continue. 
Like letting people know. 

1226
01:00:43,400 --> 01:00:45,560
Nothing. 
You know, I'm working now on an 

1227
01:00:45,560 --> 01:00:48,320
essay about, I think this could 
be a really interesting one 

1228
01:00:48,400 --> 01:00:52,080
about the literary approach to 
Knox study and how that could be

1229
01:00:52,080 --> 01:01:00,920
a kind of revolution in the way 
people bridging gaps in in 

1230
01:01:00,920 --> 01:01:03,440
understanding. 
Of the Torah and understanding 

1231
01:01:03,440 --> 01:01:06,680
of faith in ways that I think 
we're also, I mentioned like the

1232
01:01:06,680 --> 01:01:08,480
time is ripe. 
I think the time is ripe for 

1233
01:01:08,480 --> 01:01:10,160
that as well. 
So people, people I'm following,

1234
01:01:10,160 --> 01:01:14,400
people like Rabbi David Foreman 
and Professor Yoni Grossman who 

1235
01:01:14,400 --> 01:01:17,160
are revolutionaries in this 
thing, finally were there and 

1236
01:01:17,160 --> 01:01:20,320
maybe people can start reaching 
out to knock on ways they 

1237
01:01:20,320 --> 01:01:24,040
haven't done before. 
So that's I'm not there. 

1238
01:01:25,160 --> 01:01:26,680
Robbie Kerwin, thank you so 
much. 

1239
01:01:26,680 --> 01:01:29,960
We really appreciate it. 
I really learned a lot right 

1240
01:01:29,960 --> 01:01:31,720
now. 
We hope to have you on again. 

1241
01:01:31,720 --> 01:01:34,600
In fact, this essay that you 
were talking about right now 

1242
01:01:34,600 --> 01:01:38,040
that you're in the process of 
is, is right up our alley. 

1243
01:01:38,040 --> 01:01:39,720
That's something we're very 
interested in. 

1244
01:01:40,760 --> 01:01:45,960
We, we're big fans of the the 
Gooch method and its potential 

1245
01:01:46,400 --> 01:01:48,680
in the larger scheme of the 
Jewish world. 

1246
01:01:49,640 --> 01:01:53,840
You're a very forward thinking, 
practical thinker and you're 

1247
01:01:53,840 --> 01:01:58,520
very faithful when you when you 
discuss, when you discuss 

1248
01:01:58,520 --> 01:02:02,000
historical figures or or or 
whatever it is that you're 

1249
01:02:02,000 --> 01:02:06,640
discussing, you discuss it with 
with in a very straight way. 

1250
01:02:07,920 --> 01:02:10,400
You're not into taking sides. 
You're into understanding and 

1251
01:02:10,400 --> 01:02:13,680
then trying to extract from that
and understand what might be 

1252
01:02:13,680 --> 01:02:17,880
better going forward today. 
And we really appreciate your 

1253
01:02:17,880 --> 01:02:19,520
insight and thank you for 
everything. 

1254
01:02:19,640 --> 01:02:22,160
We appreciate it and stay safe 
as we're filming this right now,

1255
01:02:22,160 --> 01:02:23,480
as we're interviewing him right 
now. 

1256
01:02:24,520 --> 01:02:28,400
It's there was as well. 
I just sent a lot of rockets 

1257
01:02:28,400 --> 01:02:30,880
into Israel and we're hoping and
praying that everything works 

1258
01:02:30,880 --> 01:02:32,760
out and comes to. 
Conclusion. 

1259
01:02:33,800 --> 01:02:35,080
Thank you very much for the 
opportunity. 

1260
01:02:35,600 --> 01:02:36,880
To talk to you guys. 
Thank you. 

1261
01:02:37,520 --> 01:02:37,760
Thank you.