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Welcome to Judaism Demystified, 
a podcast for the perplexed. 

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Join us as we explore some of 
the most fascinating Jewish and 

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Torah related topics with our 
esteemed guests. 

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By tackling some of the biggest 
questions you likely won't find 

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addressed elsewhere, we aim to 
shed light on important issues 

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and inspire a return to the 
fundamentals. 

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Enjoy the show. 
Thank you for joining the 

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Judaism Demystified podcast. 
We are joined by Professor Beryl

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Dove Lerner, who is going to be 
discussing his phenomenal book 

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Human Divine Interactions in the
Hebrew Scriptures, which was a 

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Rabbi Sacks Book Prize finalist 
in 2024. 

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Phenomenal book. 
And we want everyone to get the 

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book, especially the hardcover. 
That's most important because 

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the hardcover, that's where 
that's where the money's at. 

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So we want to definitely promote
this book because it's such an 

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important book. 
And before we begin, we'd like 

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to ask you to tell us a little 
bit about yourself. 

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What got you to write this book?
And you know just how the 

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reception has been. 
All right, well, I was born in 

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Washington, DC into a fanatical 
Binet Kiva family. 

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And I studied, I studied at 
Johns Hopkins and later I've 

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been at University of Chicago 
and MA there. 

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And I, my wife and I and, and 
our first baby boy, we, we 

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packed up our bags and moved to 
Kibbutz Luhot because at the 

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time that's what you did in 
banana Kiba you, they had a, you

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know, a group of people who 
would go to a kibbutz and the 

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religious kibbutz movement would
tell us where we were needed and

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that's where we go. 
So I ended up on Kibbutz Luhot 

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milking cows for quite a few 
years, eventually got back to 

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academics, got a little bit of a
kind of a day a week to work on 

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a PhD, eventually finished that,
got a teaching job. 

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And I don't know, here I am. 
I also somewhere in the middle 

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of that I studied about Kibbutz 
Adati and various things. 

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Why did I write this book? 
I had some ideas which I thought

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were interesting and I wanted to
get them out there. 

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And well, to be perfectly 
honest, I also at the time was 

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under the impression that I 
could get in one last academic 

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promotion from what's called a 
Professor Cadel to Professor 

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Mina Mignon, which is the 
highest level of professor, But 

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then through the various 
bureaucratic issues, that didn't

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help. 
But that's really one of the 

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reasons why I thought I have to 
get this out as a book rather 

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than articles. 
And all right, was there 

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something else? 
No, Well, really, I think what 

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we like to do with our our 
guests is to get the audience 

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obviously excited about the 
books. 

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And usually what we try to do is
get into the methodology of the 

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author. 
So I think what we could start 

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with is what you laid out in 
your introduction for the whole 

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theme of the book. 
What how did you approach every 

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chapter? 
Right. 

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Well, actually you asked before 
about reactions to the book, and

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those reactions have made me 
think a lot about methodology 

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because officially the book was 
published, you know, by an 

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academic publisher in a series 
that, you know, that had 

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something to do with biblical 
studies. 

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And the, the people in biblical 
studies who reviewed it were 

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very upset that I did not follow
their methodology and I did not 

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cite, you know, all of the 
endless number of academic 

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biblical scholars who had dealt 
with everything I've dealt with.

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And actually, I have to say that
with time, I came to appreciate 

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why they were upset with me 
because they're involved in the 

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kind of conversation that I 
barged into without 

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acknowledging other people in 
the conversation. 

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So they had a point, but they 
didn't quite understand what 

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kind of book it is. 
I think it's more of the kind of

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book. 
There have been a number of of 

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books like this that came out in
recent years, people whose real 

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background is in philosophy, who
write about Tanakh, especially 

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Jews who do this. 
And I was part of a project that

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started at the Shalim Centre in 
Israel and then moved to what 

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was known as the Herzl Institute
run by, and this project was run

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by Durham Khazoni about looking 
into the, you know, a, a kind of

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philosophical reading of Tanakh,
but also of, of Khazal also, you

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know, of Talmud. 
He, he wrote a very well 

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received book about reading 
Tanakh's philosophy. 

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And I suppose it was in a way it
was, it was part of that 

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program, but it was also, I 
would say if there's a 

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methodology to the book, it is 
things that could be said in a 

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she or in my kibbutz. 
You know, in a way it's sort of 

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like the gush method, which I 
know you have, you have 

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interviewed about. 
And it may be perhaps pushing 

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the boundaries a little more 
than would be acceptable. 

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I think maybe in the gush, sort 
of like gush with without, 

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without the banisters as much 
something like that. 

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So that that's the neighborhood 
of the of the methodology. 

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Do you would you like me to go 
into the the? 

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Yeah, the actual, the actual 
point that runs through the 

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book. 
All right, the point that runs 

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through the book, so, so, so the
the basic thesis that runs 

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through the book is that 
originally, certainly God and 

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and human beings obviously have 
very different circumstances in 

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the world. 
You know, they, they have very 

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different existential 
circumstances and their moral 

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situation reflects this. 
So they end up having different 

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legitimate concerns. 
Some of the concerns they have 

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in common and some of the 
concerns are different and they 

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can be in conflict while both 
God and human beings can hold 

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these concerns legitimately. 
So how it works is I see God's 

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basic project is of creating a 
worthy world. 

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It did not have to be 
particularly our world. 

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And we see that in fact, when 
our world didn't work out so 

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well, he was willing to destroy 
it in the flood and start over 

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again. 
That's certainly, you know, the,

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the biblical attitude towards 
God's project in creation, 

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whereas human beings are just 
essentially connected to this 

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world and we are connected to 
the human race. 

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We, and, and these are 
legitimate concerns of us, We, 

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we have to worry about each 
other, even when that concern 

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may, may get in the way of, of 
God's larger projects. 

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So one way that this can come 
up, for instance, it could be 

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that in, in terms of God's 
larger projects, it makes sense 

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for him for someone to suffer to
forward his project of making 

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this world a more worthy world. 
But we as human beings are 

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concerned for each other. 
And so we can oppose that. 

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We have, no, we have no duty to 
make sure that divine 

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punishments are carried out 
unless it's in the context of 

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that we have a human court, a 
Jewish court, which is, you 

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know, is, is entrusted with 
enforcing the laws of the Torah.

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Then it has been put into human 
hands. 

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Now the way that, that, that, 
that mention of Torah sort of 

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starts to point at how the human
and the divine interests and, 

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and projects become intertwined.
And that is following the flood,

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we find for the first time God 
making a covenant with human 

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beings. 
He makes a covenant with Noah. 

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He promises not to destroy the 
world again. 

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On the other hand, he entrusts 
human beings with enforcing laws

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and, and there you can find 
after the story of the flood 

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explicitly God saying that that 
that a human murderer will be 

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punished by human beings. 
And, and these kinds of 

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covenants between, between God 
and and human beings comes more 

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explicit with the covenants 
with, with the patriarchs. 

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And we already have a situation 
where God has to take into 

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account the particularly 
peculiarly human interests of 

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the humans with which he makes 
the covenant. 

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And on the other hand, the human
beings suddenly have to take 

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into account divine interests 
that go beyond the usual 

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concerns of human morality. 
And then I read the in the book 

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sections of, of, of the Torah 
and and other parts of Tanakh as

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showing how this dance plays 
out, that you have God 

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connecting with human beings. 
They have often the same agenda,

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but sometimes somewhat opposing 
agendas and how the the tensions

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between the two play out so. 
This is so let's let's zoom out 

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for a second or zoom in or if 
you want to look at it, 

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essentially what you're trying 
to say is, is that the divine 

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realm and the human realm, they 
don't, it doesn't, it doesn't. 

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There's no, the, the divine 
realm doesn't work according to 

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our human realm. 
And what, what you're, what 

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we're saying is that, and this 
is a this is a tendency in human

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beings, in all religions, and 
it's tendency very much also in 

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Judaism that we try to fit our 
conception of God onto our own 

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moral values and systems. 
So we expect or we, we, we yeah,

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we basically, we project, 
therefore expect that that God's

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interest is my interest, or at 
least out in the hole, right? 

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That's how we kind of see it. 
And so that's why when we see 

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something that there's some sort
of injustice, we need to make 

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sense of it on our own terms, 
within our own perspective of 

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reality. 
What you're saying is that this 

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is, this is, there's a reason 
for this. 

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And that's that's human 
projection, as as Benji 

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mentioned, But it also comes 
from more so the fact that human

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beings and especially 
individuals, we see things in a 

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very art. 
We have a very individualistic 

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view. 
And we're, which is, which is, 

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has emotions in it and, and, you
know, different effects that 

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have happened around us that 
have shaped us and our thinking 

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and, and, and, you know, we are,
we are a collection of 

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experiences and, and thoughts 
and emotions. 

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And but from a creator God 
perspective, who, who works on a

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level that we just can't, 
there's no, we can never truly 

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understand God's or the divine 
realm, if you want to call it 

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perspective of reality as a 
whole. 

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And so the answer, what you're 
saying, what you're saying is 

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the answer is for human beings 
is not necessarily to try to 

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figure out the divine divine 
realm. 

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But in a sense we have to 
understand that our realm is 

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ours and we have to work within 
it and it has a legitimacy 

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within itself. 
And we have to understand that 

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the divine realm is exactly that
something that is not meant for 

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us to be able to, to what's the 
word I'm looking for fathom or 

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or relate with? 
I think that's even and I 

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believe that Maimonides spends a
good deal of time in the in the 

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in the guy to the perplex, 
trying to in a sense, bring this

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on to his on to his readers, his
audience. 

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That that you know the the way 
God runs the world is not 

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necessarily supposed to be 
something that we can relate 

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with on our own human individual
with our moral system manner. 

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Well, I maybe not, maybe not 
exactly because, you know, in, 

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in the beginning of the book, I 
do talk, I do talk about 

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negative theology, the idea that
human beings are incapable of 

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really understanding God in any 
essential way. 

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But if I would add a reference 
that I didn't make in the book, 

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I'm starting to think that maybe
I'm not that far in a certain 

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way from something that the 
Ramchal says that I think in in 

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Dara Hashem, he has an idea that
God before the creation is 

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completely beyond our 
understanding. 

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And perhaps that can be 
identified with with insult in 

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the, you know, in kabbalistic 
terms. 

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But God, in terms of being the 
creator within creation is 

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something that we can start 
having some kind of handle on. 

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And in the book, the beginning 
of a handle, which I propose is 

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this idea of God's wanting to 
create a worthy world. 

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And I think that we can, that we
can get a handle on some aspects

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of that, that for instance, for 
I think that for people to be 

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moral makes the world a more 
worthy world. 

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Our problem, our problem is more
understanding how God arranges, 

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arranges processes in order to 
arrive at at the worthy world 

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that that he would like our 
world to become. 

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That is a problem that he he 
from his his divine perspective,

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can do things that would be 
completely inappropriate for any

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human being to do human beings 
with, with their special human 

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real objective. 
It's not, I'm not just saying 

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it's emotions, a real objective,
existential duties to one 

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another and that that we have 
that, you know, God just doesn't

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have to the same extent, except 
to the extent that he has 

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entered into covenants with 
human beings. 

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And then he's he's drawn down 
into this. 

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You know, that's a lot of the a 
lot of the interpretations I 

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give. 
It's it's situations where God 

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is is drawn down into having to 
having to forward human 

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interests, which aren't 
necessarily part of his bigger 

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story because he's entered into 
covenants and, and and he's 

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stuck with it, so to speak. 
Right. 

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00:15:05,160 --> 00:15:09,360
And the, and the, the idea that 
God wants a worthy world and 

225
00:15:09,360 --> 00:15:11,160
the, and the legitimacy of 
morality. 

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00:15:12,120 --> 00:15:14,240
My point was never to undo that 
aspect. 

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00:15:14,440 --> 00:15:17,160
My point was just from the 
perspective of trying to figure 

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00:15:17,160 --> 00:15:19,600
out, like you said, figure out 
how everything plays out in real

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00:15:19,600 --> 00:15:21,040
time from the divine 
perspective. 

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00:15:21,760 --> 00:15:24,280
Absolutely. 
I would just add that that the 

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00:15:24,280 --> 00:15:28,560
Torah and and Tanakh, it keeps 
on telling us what the divine 

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plan is. 
And even when we have the 

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Torah's witness of what the 
divine plan is, often that 

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00:15:34,920 --> 00:15:40,080
divine plan is something that 
would be completely unacceptable

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00:15:40,920 --> 00:15:44,600
for I say a human leader to to 
try to forward. 

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We know what the plan is and we 
say, wow, that's pretty 

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terrible, but you're God and 
that's how you can, you know, 

238
00:15:53,640 --> 00:15:56,480
get to where you want us to get.
But by. 

239
00:15:56,480 --> 00:15:58,760
But certainly if there was any 
human beings involved, it would 

240
00:15:58,760 --> 00:16:00,800
be completely unacceptable 
either. 

241
00:16:00,800 --> 00:16:07,800
I just throw in there's there's 
a comparison that I bring from 

242
00:16:08,560 --> 00:16:11,120
Bernard Williams and an 
important British moral 

243
00:16:11,120 --> 00:16:14,760
philosopher in his last lecture.
So he talked about what would 

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00:16:14,760 --> 00:16:21,480
happen if we were told by some 
great intergalactic 

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intelligence, not a God, but 
some kinds of alien beings. 

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00:16:25,920 --> 00:16:32,440
But they have done a grand, a 
grand utilitarian calculation, 

247
00:16:32,440 --> 00:16:36,000
and they came to the conclusion 
that for all of the beings in 

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00:16:36,000 --> 00:16:38,880
the universe concerned, it would
be best for the human race to 

249
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cease to exist. 
And he says, So what would we 

250
00:16:43,000 --> 00:16:46,040
do? 
Would we say, wow, your thinking

251
00:16:46,040 --> 00:16:48,600
really makes sense, I guess you 
have to disappear? 

252
00:16:49,200 --> 00:16:54,320
Or would we say, well, we're 
sorry, but we're the human 

253
00:16:54,320 --> 00:16:57,280
beings. 
And I don't think that anyone 

254
00:16:57,280 --> 00:17:01,680
could say it would be 
illegitimate for us to reject 

255
00:17:01,680 --> 00:17:04,839
that plan as human beings, even 
though, you know, there was 

256
00:17:04,839 --> 00:17:08,960
this, you know, great cosmic and
calculation that showed that 

257
00:17:08,960 --> 00:17:11,040
really would be better off for 
everyone concerned if we weren't

258
00:17:11,040 --> 00:17:15,920
around. 
So that's that's the kind of of 

259
00:17:15,920 --> 00:17:19,079
tensions that can develop. 
So the covenant essentially is, 

260
00:17:19,319 --> 00:17:22,640
is God's incorporation, 
incorporating, sorry, 

261
00:17:22,880 --> 00:17:32,120
incorporating human objective, 
human value, yes, into, into 

262
00:17:32,120 --> 00:17:35,960
the, into the picture where we 
humans and God in a sense, 

263
00:17:35,960 --> 00:17:41,080
become a team in, in carrying 
out the ultimate plan with, with

264
00:17:41,320 --> 00:17:44,640
our, our values and God's values
kind of inter interplaying 

265
00:17:44,640 --> 00:17:46,920
together. 
And, and, and that's essentially

266
00:17:46,920 --> 00:17:48,760
how you read a lot of these 
stories. 

267
00:17:48,960 --> 00:17:52,720
So I'd like if you could show 
how that plays out in the flood 

268
00:17:52,720 --> 00:17:58,640
and the Saddam stories. 
So in in the flood story you 

269
00:17:58,640 --> 00:18:02,760
have well first of all that you 
know the flood itself is pre 

270
00:18:02,760 --> 00:18:04,040
covenantal. 
Yeah. 

271
00:18:04,880 --> 00:18:08,920
So basically you can have a 
story there of God showing us 

272
00:18:08,920 --> 00:18:13,280
precisely how he acts as a 
creator God who is who is not 

273
00:18:13,280 --> 00:18:16,360
bound by a covenant. 
We can simply destroy the world.

274
00:18:16,560 --> 00:18:20,560
No, So that's how I can read. 
If you go back to the the days 

275
00:18:20,560 --> 00:18:25,280
of creation and everybody 
celebrates that, God says that 

276
00:18:25,280 --> 00:18:28,880
he saw it was good after, you 
know, basically each day's work.

277
00:18:29,840 --> 00:18:33,400
So I put it in a darker light 
that I say God looks at it. 

278
00:18:33,400 --> 00:18:35,400
Well, is it worth keeping? 
Yeah, Yeah, it's good. 

279
00:18:35,400 --> 00:18:39,520
OK, we'll keep this, We'll keep 
this process going and 

280
00:18:39,520 --> 00:18:44,960
everything is good, good, good. 
Keep it going until you get to 

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00:18:44,960 --> 00:18:46,960
the flood where he sees things 
are falling apart. 

282
00:18:46,960 --> 00:18:49,040
Sorry, no longer good. 
Looks like I have to start over 

283
00:18:49,040 --> 00:18:53,240
again. 
And because he has no, he, he, 

284
00:18:53,240 --> 00:18:56,960
he has no special relationship 
to our, you know, to the 

285
00:18:56,960 --> 00:19:02,680
particular pre flood world, but 
rather his, his duty, his, his 

286
00:19:02,680 --> 00:19:06,280
interest is to create a worthy 
world so he can, he can destroy 

287
00:19:06,280 --> 00:19:11,040
the, the pre flood world. 
However, he enters into a, a 

288
00:19:11,360 --> 00:19:13,800
contract, a contract, a covenant
with Noah. 

289
00:19:14,360 --> 00:19:19,040
And wow, I would say it will be.
I don't know if I'll manage to 

290
00:19:20,600 --> 00:19:24,600
carry off the the whole 
interpretation now, but but what

291
00:19:24,600 --> 00:19:29,760
I what I do in that section of 
the book, which I I don't point 

292
00:19:29,760 --> 00:19:35,200
out that I do it, but I 
basically show how what looks 

293
00:19:35,200 --> 00:19:40,000
the biblical critics as a 
combination of two fled stories 

294
00:19:40,000 --> 00:19:47,360
in one with with a repetition of
of of of seeming repetition of 

295
00:19:47,360 --> 00:19:48,960
certain commands with different 
language. 

296
00:19:48,960 --> 00:19:52,000
One time you have that he should
bring that, that, that Noah 

297
00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:55,520
should bring a male and a female
of each species. 

298
00:19:55,520 --> 00:20:00,560
And then later that he should 
bring, you know, sevens of of 

299
00:20:00,560 --> 00:20:04,840
the clean species and, and a 
biblical critic would say, ah, 

300
00:20:04,840 --> 00:20:06,800
you see, there are different, 
there are different sources that

301
00:20:06,800 --> 00:20:08,800
were combined together. 
I say, no, this is a kind of a 

302
00:20:08,800 --> 00:20:12,720
tango that's going on between 
God and Noah as they developed 

303
00:20:12,720 --> 00:20:19,200
this covenantal relationship. 
God, God gives, gives Noah 

304
00:20:19,200 --> 00:20:22,680
certain instructions. 
Noah follows those instructions.

305
00:20:22,680 --> 00:20:26,520
Now God is saying, oh, you know 
what, so I will. 

306
00:20:27,320 --> 00:20:29,960
Create the circumstances for 
Noah to be able to give a 

307
00:20:29,960 --> 00:20:31,600
sacrifice later. 
How will I do that? 

308
00:20:31,600 --> 00:20:34,400
And I'll ask him to bring things
are getting along. 

309
00:20:34,400 --> 00:20:36,160
Things are improving in this 
relationship. 

310
00:20:36,160 --> 00:20:39,880
So now I'll tell him to have a 
lot of the clean animals to be 

311
00:20:39,880 --> 00:20:42,560
able to sacrifice them. 
And so it builds up. 

312
00:20:42,760 --> 00:20:46,200
And so finally, after the after 
the flood, he, he enters into 

313
00:20:46,200 --> 00:20:50,960
this covenant with, with Noah 
and with the human race and 

314
00:20:50,960 --> 00:20:53,200
basically with the whole world 
that he will not discover it, 

315
00:20:53,280 --> 00:20:54,800
that he will not destroy it 
again. 

316
00:20:55,280 --> 00:20:57,840
And then I say God has tied his 
hands. 

317
00:20:58,080 --> 00:21:05,520
He has created a new moral duty 
for himself, just like anyone 

318
00:21:05,520 --> 00:21:09,600
can create a new moral duty by 
making a promise to someone or 

319
00:21:09,600 --> 00:21:10,880
entering into a covenant with 
him. 

320
00:21:10,880 --> 00:21:13,760
God has done this. 
And God, God isn't just doing 

321
00:21:13,760 --> 00:21:16,440
people a favor by not destroying
the world. 

322
00:21:16,600 --> 00:21:18,840
He is creating a moral 
imperative for himself that he 

323
00:21:18,840 --> 00:21:22,080
can no longer morally, he can't,
he can't destroy the world 

324
00:21:22,080 --> 00:21:23,800
because he's promised not to 
destroy it. 

325
00:21:24,040 --> 00:21:26,440
And that's what happens with the
covenants that continue that he 

326
00:21:26,440 --> 00:21:31,920
keeps on sort of tying his own 
hands by by adding new special 

327
00:21:31,920 --> 00:21:36,840
duties to that to to so that to 
the the kind of original duty 

328
00:21:36,840 --> 00:21:39,200
that he had of, of just trying 
to create a worthy world. 

329
00:21:39,480 --> 00:21:42,120
Now you wanted me to talk about 
Noah and what else? 

330
00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:43,680
And and and Saddam, but before 
you. 

331
00:21:45,440 --> 00:21:48,160
So covenant by its very nature 
is a bilateral agreement. 

332
00:21:48,520 --> 00:21:53,880
So you're you're am I mean? 
Well, I because I think that if 

333
00:21:53,880 --> 00:21:58,440
we get to breedman Abtarim, 
right, the covenant of the 

334
00:21:58,440 --> 00:22:02,040
pieces, that's a pretty one way 
agreement, you know, a one way 

335
00:22:02,040 --> 00:22:03,680
covenant. 
God makes promises and he 

336
00:22:03,680 --> 00:22:08,760
doesn't really tell Abraham that
something is expected of him 

337
00:22:08,760 --> 00:22:11,480
there. 
So, so there are two, there are 

338
00:22:11,480 --> 00:22:16,720
two parties certainly, but it 
does not necessarily have to go 

339
00:22:16,720 --> 00:22:18,880
both ways. 
Certainly when you get later to 

340
00:22:18,880 --> 00:22:22,360
the Torah, there you have each 
side has has list of of of 

341
00:22:22,760 --> 00:22:25,280
goodies and expectations, but. 
I guess we could fairly say in 

342
00:22:25,280 --> 00:22:29,320
general, in general in bilateral
maybe that's I know that's an 

343
00:22:29,320 --> 00:22:30,440
interesting point with the 
benefit. 

344
00:22:30,440 --> 00:22:32,080
I didn't think about that. 
That's that's a very interesting

345
00:22:32,080 --> 00:22:34,680
point. 
There was something else I want 

346
00:22:34,680 --> 00:22:37,280
to say and I forgot. 
You has to be wanted to know 

347
00:22:37,600 --> 00:22:42,840
about yes so. 
Oh, what I wanted, what I wanted

348
00:22:42,840 --> 00:22:45,640
to mention actually was as you 
were saying that how Hashem sort

349
00:22:45,640 --> 00:22:49,880
of ties his own hands in, in the
fact that he enters his 

350
00:22:49,880 --> 00:22:52,280
covenants. 
I was thinking to myself, I'm 

351
00:22:52,280 --> 00:22:55,160
wondering if that could be the 
explanation of what the, when 

352
00:22:55,160 --> 00:23:00,200
the, when the sages say that 
Hashem keeps all the mitzvot in 

353
00:23:00,200 --> 00:23:03,280
the Gemara, there's a, there's 
an agarita, there's a, there's a

354
00:23:03,360 --> 00:23:07,480
saying that God is obligated and
bound by his own mitzvot, right?

355
00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:10,120
Meaning that he keeps all the 
mitzvot, which is obscure and 

356
00:23:10,120 --> 00:23:12,840
very, you know, what, what, what
in the world does that mean? 

357
00:23:13,000 --> 00:23:15,640
I was thinking to myself as you 
were saying this, perhaps what 

358
00:23:15,640 --> 00:23:18,760
that means is really that God is
bound by the by the covenant 

359
00:23:18,760 --> 00:23:21,840
mitzvot or or an aspect of the 
covenant that he that he makes 

360
00:23:21,840 --> 00:23:24,640
with the people. 
Or, or perhaps I got it that 

361
00:23:24,640 --> 00:23:27,360
which which would say it more 
clearly, the idea that God also 

362
00:23:27,360 --> 00:23:29,440
has a feeling that he wears. 
Right, so. 

363
00:23:29,640 --> 00:23:31,800
Yeah, that we say. 
Yeah, right. 

364
00:23:31,840 --> 00:23:35,000
Feeling for it to say, you know 
that, that, that there is one 

365
00:23:35,040 --> 00:23:41,960
unique God and God wears his 
where's his feeling right? 

366
00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:44,560
That's talking about the the 
existence and unity of the 

367
00:23:44,560 --> 00:23:46,080
Jewish people. 
Exactly. 

368
00:23:46,080 --> 00:23:47,880
That is his. 
That is his obligation and 

369
00:23:47,880 --> 00:23:49,720
covenants to the people that he.
Yeah, exactly. 

370
00:23:50,040 --> 00:23:51,320
That's very interesting. 
OK, that's all. 

371
00:23:51,320 --> 00:23:52,200
I'm sorry. 
Sorry for. 

372
00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:54,360
Yeah, So then what? 
Now we can get into Saddam. 

373
00:23:54,360 --> 00:23:56,960
Yes, sorry. 
So it's Dom I would say to. 

374
00:23:57,080 --> 00:23:59,320
I think there are two aspects of
it that I have to relate to. 

375
00:23:59,320 --> 00:24:04,600
First of all is a famous 
bargaining between Abraham and 

376
00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:09,440
God about stone and amorah and 
when swaying and etcetera. 

377
00:24:09,720 --> 00:24:17,000
But in any case, so you know, 
famously in in in Viera, when 

378
00:24:17,040 --> 00:24:21,160
after Avraham and Sahara are 
told to get I told that that you

379
00:24:21,160 --> 00:24:23,280
know that that Sarah will have a
child. 

380
00:24:23,840 --> 00:24:30,400
So then God sort of takes 
Avraham aside and if you look 

381
00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:34,120
really at the sukim, he, he 
basically is saying, I have to 

382
00:24:34,120 --> 00:24:38,240
consult with Avraham about 
what's going on in stone. 

383
00:24:39,040 --> 00:24:41,360
I have to, I have to consult 
with him. 

384
00:24:41,920 --> 00:24:48,480
And they, and Abraham famously 
starts bargaining down God. 

385
00:24:48,960 --> 00:24:51,520
God has not yet said that, that 
he's going to destroy these 

386
00:24:51,520 --> 00:24:53,520
cities. 
But apparently you know the the 

387
00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:57,280
possibility is out there and 
Abraham is bargaining down God 

388
00:24:57,680 --> 00:25:01,640
about what is the least number 
of righteous people who have to 

389
00:25:01,640 --> 00:25:04,280
be found there in order for for 
them to be spared. 

390
00:25:05,800 --> 00:25:13,760
And as as I understand this God 
is involved God's involving Aram

391
00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:20,160
in in that negotiation is is 
just showing us God has a 

392
00:25:20,160 --> 00:25:26,760
covenant with Abraham. 
God according to his plans would

393
00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:29,520
certainly want to destroy stone.
It makes perfect sense. 

394
00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:33,920
And I explained later that the 
storm is a place where people 

395
00:25:33,920 --> 00:25:39,640
are not even keeping the basic 
requirement that was of of the 

396
00:25:39,720 --> 00:25:44,320
covenant with with Noah, that in
the government with Noah, that 

397
00:25:44,320 --> 00:25:49,200
there was supposed to be humans 
seeing to law and order, humans 

398
00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:51,960
dealing, you know, making sure 
that that murderers are 

399
00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:55,440
punished. 
And it seems that in stone this 

400
00:25:55,440 --> 00:25:58,760
death isn't happening. 
And so stone becomes a kind of 

401
00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:02,760
has its own kind of mini flood, 
mini destruction, mini total 

402
00:26:02,760 --> 00:26:07,280
annihilation, sort of a repeat 
of the flood story in a place 

403
00:26:07,280 --> 00:26:10,920
where even the, the requirements
of of Noah's covenants are not 

404
00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:13,600
being kept. 
But in any case, so it makes 

405
00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:17,920
sense in terms of the covenant 
with Noah that soma namora would

406
00:26:17,920 --> 00:26:22,680
be destroyed. 
But God has to God has to talk 

407
00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:25,200
to Avram about this because he 
has a covenantal relationship 

408
00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:28,640
with with Avram. 
And I think it's the Rashbaum 

409
00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:32,480
who even mentions in a very 
straightforward way, he gave the

410
00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:35,720
land to Abraham. 
It's promised to him already by 

411
00:26:35,720 --> 00:26:38,000
covenant. 
And here he's going to ruin a 

412
00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:41,920
lot of this real estate, which 
he promised to Abraham. 

413
00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:45,640
This is sort of, you know, the 
lowest level of looking at it. 

414
00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:49,280
God is God's plan is to destroy 
a lot of the real estate 

415
00:26:49,280 --> 00:26:51,120
problems to Abraham. 
But what is he going to do? 

416
00:26:51,120 --> 00:26:54,400
He promised Abraham, He has to 
take into account Abraham's 

417
00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:57,000
interest. 
Of course, there there are more 

418
00:26:57,400 --> 00:26:59,600
sort of more higher ethical ways
of looking at it. 

419
00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:03,680
You could say Abraham is simply 
has the concerns of a human 

420
00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:07,600
being with basic human 
solidarity that all things being

421
00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:10,200
equal, human beings are not 
interested in seeing whole 

422
00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:15,520
cities annihilated. 
I mean, unfortunately it looks 

423
00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:18,080
like sometimes certainly the 
destruction of the buildings may

424
00:27:18,080 --> 00:27:22,960
be necessary. 
But in any case, so as far as 

425
00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:27,560
Avraham's concerned, he may 
simply be saying I am trying to 

426
00:27:27,560 --> 00:27:32,760
protect my fellow human beings. 
Or it could be Abraham once 

427
00:27:32,760 --> 00:27:37,120
again has a familial ties to 
someone in stone Lot. 

428
00:27:37,120 --> 00:27:39,480
His nephew was living there. 
We've already seen in the past 

429
00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:47,200
that Abraham was willing to go 
to war in order to, to to free 

430
00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:52,760
Lot from captivity by the enemy.
And so here again, Abraham also 

431
00:27:52,760 --> 00:27:56,560
has an interest in interest in 
protecting the interests of Lot 

432
00:27:56,560 --> 00:27:58,320
that Lot shouldn't be killed in 
this whole thing. 

433
00:27:58,320 --> 00:28:01,760
And in fact, in the end, 
although there aren't the 

434
00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:05,680
sufficient number of of 
righteous people in order for 

435
00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:08,480
the cities to be spared, we see 
God does spare Loth. 

436
00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:12,240
And as I recall pretty 
explicitly, God remembers 

437
00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:14,240
Avraham. 
He remembers his covenant with 

438
00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:15,840
Avraham. 
No, I can't kill everybody in 

439
00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:20,920
stone because he has to take the
covenant with Avraham in in into

440
00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:24,080
account even in in this massive 
destruction. 

441
00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:29,240
So you also brought up in this 
chapter, for example, the the 

442
00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:32,160
the deaths in the Korach 
rebellion right there, there are

443
00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:34,720
these we're talking about the 
imitatio day. 

444
00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:36,080
The. 
Yeah. 

445
00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:39,320
So basically you're saying that 
there, there doesn't seem to be 

446
00:28:39,320 --> 00:28:42,480
that imitatio they for the 
justification of crimes against 

447
00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:44,800
humanity. 
And that Jewish tradition has 

448
00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:47,320
always been at least implicitly 
aware of these difficulties. 

449
00:28:47,520 --> 00:28:49,200
So can you just touch on that a 
little bit, Right? 

450
00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:53,400
Right, well, the idea of 
imitatio day is of course that a

451
00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:56,560
basis for religious ethics would
be to say God is just, God is 

452
00:28:56,560 --> 00:29:00,880
good, God is merciful, etcetera.
And so we should follow in God's

453
00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:06,280
path. 
And I have AI have a problem 

454
00:29:06,280 --> 00:29:10,800
with this and in the chapter I I
relate to it to an essay by John

455
00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:12,680
Stuart Mill who who talks about 
this. 

456
00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:16,480
Then we have a problem that both
in the biblical stories and also

457
00:29:16,480 --> 00:29:21,080
just in the world as we see it, 
God is God does not behave in a 

458
00:29:21,080 --> 00:29:23,080
way that we would like human 
beings to behave. 

459
00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:32,440
God has, I would say, legitimate
moral license as God to be 

460
00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:36,440
destructive, for instance, in a 
way that human beings who are 

461
00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:40,880
not creators of worlds and and 
also who have special human 

462
00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:43,120
duties to each other as fellow 
human beings. 

463
00:29:43,400 --> 00:29:46,720
It is not appropriate for people
to act in this way. 

464
00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:53,400
And I bring for example, that 
where you can see this in, in, 

465
00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:58,400
in Khazal is simply that, you 
know, every the Khazal is 

466
00:29:58,400 --> 00:30:01,560
willing to say mahu hanum rahum,
you know that he's merciful, 

467
00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:05,280
etcetera, and you should be 
merciful, but no one will ever 

468
00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:14,520
say he is willing to, you know, 
bring plagues and earthquakes 

469
00:30:14,520 --> 00:30:17,320
and whatever. 
And therefore you should be 

470
00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:21,800
prepared to, you know, just 
just, you know, have empires, 

471
00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:24,440
wipe out civilizations and 
whatever. 

472
00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:28,840
But in Tanakh, in Tanakh, God, 
God is willing to act in that 

473
00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:32,760
way. 
And, and an example I give with 

474
00:30:32,760 --> 00:30:38,040
this, although I, I have a very 
mixed relationship with, with 

475
00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:46,080
Kabbalah, but in right in the, 
the, the Kabbalistic ethical 

476
00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:49,080
work. 
So that is basically a kind of 

477
00:30:49,080 --> 00:30:53,920
Kabbalistic Imitacio day that to
be ethical by, by imitating God,

478
00:30:55,000 --> 00:31:00,520
But he's very careful that he, 
he chooses the correct 

479
00:31:00,520 --> 00:31:07,760
attributes for for us to follow.
He, you know, and so you can see

480
00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:09,720
that that, that there's an 
understanding that there are 

481
00:31:09,720 --> 00:31:13,160
attributes of their attributes 
of God's actions which are not 

482
00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:17,240
appropriate to humans. 
And I say, in fact, that is what

483
00:31:17,240 --> 00:31:19,280
tyrants do. 
Tyrants play God. 

484
00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:26,360
Tyrants think that that they are
like world creators and, and, 

485
00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:31,280
and and that they have goals 
that, you know, are more 

486
00:31:31,280 --> 00:31:35,800
important than human morality. 
So they are literally playing 

487
00:31:35,800 --> 00:31:37,560
God. 
So I have I have a problem with 

488
00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:41,600
with Imitacio Day. 
I would just mention that 

489
00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:45,360
perhaps because of that, the 
Rambam when he talks about 

490
00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:49,800
imitating God, it ends up being 
imitating God as a creator of 

491
00:31:49,800 --> 00:31:52,640
nature. 
He avoids talking about history.

492
00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:56,280
Maybe history isn't so nice. 
So, so, so Rambam talks about 

493
00:31:57,080 --> 00:31:59,720
look how wonderfully God 
arranged nature and isn't that 

494
00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:03,960
nice. 
But since the development of 

495
00:32:03,960 --> 00:32:06,720
modern biology and the 
understanding that biological 

496
00:32:06,720 --> 00:32:10,400
processes, you know, 
environmental processes and 

497
00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:14,560
processes within populations of 
animals, it involve a, a 

498
00:32:14,560 --> 00:32:19,760
tremendous amount of suffering. 
That appreciation even makes the

499
00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:25,160
round bombs interpretation less 
plausible because it's sort of 

500
00:32:25,160 --> 00:32:30,720
hard to see why if if, if we're 
supposed to act like God, I 

501
00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:33,680
don't think we're supposed to 
set up set up societies where 

502
00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:37,400
this is where there's that kind 
of tremendous amount of 

503
00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:40,360
suffering that there is going on
in nature. 

504
00:32:40,840 --> 00:32:43,400
Our teacher up in my roof 
actually once gave a whole class

505
00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:45,280
on this. 
It's it needs the treatment of 

506
00:32:45,280 --> 00:32:48,760
an entire podcast to be able to 
address your your question. 

507
00:32:49,320 --> 00:32:51,360
But maybe we can put them in 
touch? 

508
00:32:51,720 --> 00:32:53,280
Definitely. 
But I actually wanted to add to 

509
00:32:53,280 --> 00:32:54,600
that. 
I think what you're saying is 

510
00:32:54,600 --> 00:32:58,840
really represented in the 
symbolism of the Mikdash, right?

511
00:32:58,840 --> 00:33:02,240
The Mishkan and the Mikdash, 
which is God outside of the 

512
00:33:02,240 --> 00:33:05,160
Mikdash seems to be very 
forgiving, giving human beings 

513
00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:07,880
another chance. 
He's not he's not super, you 

514
00:33:07,880 --> 00:33:10,720
know, meticulous about like, OK,
if you make a mistake, then 

515
00:33:10,840 --> 00:33:12,320
here's here are ways to do 
teshuva. 

516
00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:14,360
You do, you can bring a 
sacrifice, all these things, but

517
00:33:14,840 --> 00:33:17,920
if you make a mistake in the 
Kodesh, there's no, there's no 

518
00:33:17,920 --> 00:33:20,960
leniency, right? 
The the world, the the realm of 

519
00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:23,520
the divine, there is, is run 
differently. 

520
00:33:23,960 --> 00:33:26,920
And that's to teach the way that
Mikdash like functions is to 

521
00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:30,760
teach us that with the even even
down to the, the, the symbolism 

522
00:33:30,760 --> 00:33:33,480
of the curtain that separates, 
you know, the Kohan from the our

523
00:33:33,480 --> 00:33:36,240
own is that it's, there's, 
there's like a boundary we can't

524
00:33:36,240 --> 00:33:37,800
really cross and we can't really
understand. 

525
00:33:37,800 --> 00:33:39,240
So I, I kind of that kind of 
came to mind. 

526
00:33:39,240 --> 00:33:41,120
I don't know if that's if you 
agree with that, but that kind 

527
00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:44,640
of came to mind. 
Yeah, I'll tell you, I, I don't 

528
00:33:44,640 --> 00:33:45,720
know. 
I have thoughts all over the 

529
00:33:45,720 --> 00:33:47,240
place. 
I can't I can't claim to be 

530
00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:51,280
systematic because when you 
mention the curtain, the 

531
00:33:51,280 --> 00:33:54,760
prophet, I can't help but think 
of mersum kamidwinsk in the 

532
00:33:54,760 --> 00:33:57,280
Mesha kukma. 
And that says something amazing.

533
00:33:57,560 --> 00:34:01,880
It says the pasuk is something 
like Dil lahim Ben kodesh, 

534
00:34:01,960 --> 00:34:03,680
kodesh shakodoshim, something 
like that. 

535
00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:06,440
And that it that it separates it
for you. 

536
00:34:07,240 --> 00:34:15,320
And then he says, of course, in 
an objective sense, the whole 

537
00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:18,239
world is full of, of God's 
glory. 

538
00:34:18,719 --> 00:34:23,800
But for your mindset, I'm 
separate. 

539
00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:26,719
You know, you think of it as if 
there's really a difference 

540
00:34:26,719 --> 00:34:30,120
between the Kodishka, the shame 
and, and you know, the holy of 

541
00:34:30,120 --> 00:34:33,360
holies and the rest of, and the 
rest of, of the, of the 

542
00:34:34,280 --> 00:34:39,199
Tabernacle or of the temple. 
But really this whole all of 

543
00:34:39,199 --> 00:34:44,199
existence is, you know, sort of 
radioactive with holiness, so to

544
00:34:44,199 --> 00:34:45,600
speak. 
I mean, that's all. 

545
00:34:45,719 --> 00:34:48,560
That's something which, I mean, 
it's not in my book, but it's 

546
00:34:48,560 --> 00:34:50,840
something which I've been 
thinking of writing about an 

547
00:34:50,840 --> 00:34:55,520
idea that things that we 
consider things that are 

548
00:34:55,520 --> 00:35:00,760
considered holy in Judaism, 
holiness in Judaism is making 

549
00:35:00,960 --> 00:35:03,120
the inherent holiness 
perspicuous. 

550
00:35:04,640 --> 00:35:10,680
It's like Moloko, the arts 
Bordeaux, the in the sort of 

551
00:35:10,720 --> 00:35:16,400
God's presence is, is with us 
everywhere and the holy place is

552
00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:20,640
where we can sort of notice it. 
It's as if most of the time 

553
00:35:20,640 --> 00:35:23,400
we're going around with 
sunglasses on or maybe even 

554
00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:29,040
welders helmets on in order to 
be avoid being blinded by the 

555
00:35:29,040 --> 00:35:33,000
tremendous value of, of every 
existent thing and, and, and 

556
00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:35,600
God's presence and everything 
and our fellow human beings 

557
00:35:35,600 --> 00:35:38,520
being created in God's image. 
It's just, it's just too much to

558
00:35:38,520 --> 00:35:42,520
take in as we sort of have to, 
you have to wear heavy 

559
00:35:42,520 --> 00:35:45,800
sunglasses to, to, to just 
survive with that much meaning 

560
00:35:45,960 --> 00:35:50,240
in, in, in existence. 
And the holy places are places 

561
00:35:50,240 --> 00:35:53,880
where we sort of can take off 
the sunglasses to a certain 

562
00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:57,800
extent and, and expose ourselves
and, and, and, and, and become 

563
00:35:57,800 --> 00:36:04,200
aware of, you know, of, of God's
presence of, of the value of 

564
00:36:04,200 --> 00:36:06,320
things, of holiness and the 
value also of fellow human 

565
00:36:06,320 --> 00:36:09,440
beings. 
So anyway, that's, I'm just 

566
00:36:09,440 --> 00:36:11,160
throwing that in. 
That's not really in the book. 

567
00:36:11,680 --> 00:36:14,760
OK, very good. 
So we want to get into chapter 

568
00:36:14,760 --> 00:36:18,000
3, which is called Responsible 
Rebels. 

569
00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:21,120
Saul, Jonah, and Abraham contend
with God's request. 

570
00:36:21,120 --> 00:36:23,520
So we'd like to get a little 
teaser of that chapter. 

571
00:36:24,200 --> 00:36:29,640
So, yeah, so with Saul, I deal 
with his famous battle with the 

572
00:36:29,640 --> 00:36:34,960
Amalekites, which is often, you 
know, seen as a as a case of 

573
00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:38,280
genocide. 
There is there is a commandment 

574
00:36:38,280 --> 00:36:40,520
in the Torah to to wipe out the 
Amalekites. 

575
00:36:40,520 --> 00:36:42,240
And here we have Saul's the 
first king. 

576
00:36:42,880 --> 00:36:47,600
He's basically taking care of 
the immediate security issues. 

577
00:36:48,360 --> 00:36:52,200
And the prophet Samuel comes to 
him and says now this is the 

578
00:36:52,200 --> 00:36:57,000
time to, you know, fulfill this,
this commandment of completely 

579
00:36:57,000 --> 00:37:00,360
wiping out the Amalekites, men, 
women, children, everything. 

580
00:37:01,560 --> 00:37:10,440
And he goes to battle the usual.
Usually people who read it don't

581
00:37:10,440 --> 00:37:11,720
pay attention to all the 
details. 

582
00:37:11,720 --> 00:37:14,960
I'll first say what what 
inattentive readers notice. 

583
00:37:15,040 --> 00:37:20,600
He goes to battle and they were 
supposed to have destroyed also 

584
00:37:20,600 --> 00:37:24,480
all of the Amalekites animals, 
but instead some of these 

585
00:37:24,480 --> 00:37:26,400
animals are lapsed. 
Apparently the troops want to 

586
00:37:26,400 --> 00:37:31,760
barbecue and also the Malachite 
king Agog is left alive. 

587
00:37:32,160 --> 00:37:36,720
And then prophet Samuel has a 
conversation with, with, with 

588
00:37:37,040 --> 00:37:39,960
with Saul about this and that, 
that this is a great failure of 

589
00:37:39,960 --> 00:37:41,760
you as a king. 
And, and you're going, but 

590
00:37:41,760 --> 00:37:47,480
people read, people read the 
story as if Saul really did 

591
00:37:48,320 --> 00:37:50,480
annihilate all the men, women 
and children. 

592
00:37:51,400 --> 00:37:57,080
And my interpretation of the 
story is on based on a close 

593
00:37:57,080 --> 00:38:06,840
reading that he really only 
killed fighting men, and that at

594
00:38:06,840 --> 00:38:11,520
the end of the day, what Saul 
was upset about was not that he 

595
00:38:11,520 --> 00:38:15,160
hadn't killed the the women and 
children, the noncombatants. 

596
00:38:15,440 --> 00:38:21,360
Saul was upset that he'd given 
in to the wishes of his troops 

597
00:38:22,160 --> 00:38:25,320
not to kill the animals, which 
would have been a much less 

598
00:38:25,320 --> 00:38:29,240
morally fraught thing for him to
do, and also that he did not 

599
00:38:29,240 --> 00:38:34,960
kill a God the king. 
And my, what I understand is 

600
00:38:34,960 --> 00:38:40,840
going on here is that Saul was 
not willing to kill the, the 

601
00:38:40,960 --> 00:38:45,760
women and children because this 
did not make sense in terms of 

602
00:38:45,760 --> 00:38:52,000
human morality. 
And, and Samuel speaking sort of

603
00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:54,440
on God's behalf, does not bring 
that up. 

604
00:38:55,360 --> 00:38:57,560
He doesn't complain that the 
women and children have not been

605
00:38:57,560 --> 00:39:01,920
killed. 
He's only upset about Saul 

606
00:39:01,920 --> 00:39:05,000
giving into the giving into the 
troops about the animals. 

607
00:39:06,240 --> 00:39:11,680
And this this not only didn't he
fulfill God's command, which was

608
00:39:11,680 --> 00:39:14,240
much less morally problematic, 
was just dealing with animals, 

609
00:39:14,480 --> 00:39:18,320
but he also gave into it because
he gave into into the troops 

610
00:39:18,320 --> 00:39:20,040
desires. 
And, and, you know, it wasn't 

611
00:39:20,040 --> 00:39:23,400
really a true command decision, 
wasn't it, it, it wasn't the way

612
00:39:23,400 --> 00:39:25,360
a real king leader is supposed 
to behave. 

613
00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:29,280
I didn't mention it in the book.
I have a feeling that he keeps 

614
00:39:29,280 --> 00:39:33,280
the the Malachi king alive 
because, you know, we kings, we 

615
00:39:33,280 --> 00:39:36,280
have to look out for each other.
And I think that in Tanakh, 

616
00:39:36,280 --> 00:39:41,720
there may be some kind of 
unspoken convention among kings.

617
00:39:41,720 --> 00:39:43,920
You don't kill each other in 
battle if you can avoid it 

618
00:39:43,920 --> 00:39:47,400
because who knows, you know, I 
may, I may lose the next war. 

619
00:39:47,400 --> 00:39:49,840
I don't want to be killed. 
So we kings, we look out for 

620
00:39:49,840 --> 00:39:51,360
each other and we don't kill 
each other. 

621
00:39:51,960 --> 00:39:58,080
And perhaps that was, you know, 
the, the improper motivation of,

622
00:39:59,000 --> 00:40:01,160
of Saul not killing the king, 
who was, after all, I know the 

623
00:40:01,160 --> 00:40:03,680
king at the time was, was the 
supreme military commander. 

624
00:40:03,680 --> 00:40:05,760
Obviously he was, he was a 
legitimate target. 

625
00:40:06,400 --> 00:40:10,920
So that's the way I, I read that
story as being kind of a, a 

626
00:40:10,920 --> 00:40:14,280
very, a very tense situation 
where on the one hand, God seems

627
00:40:14,280 --> 00:40:18,040
to give let it slip. 
The women and children are not 

628
00:40:18,040 --> 00:40:19,480
killed. 
Without going into the whole 

629
00:40:19,480 --> 00:40:22,000
interpretation, it's obvious 
that he didn't kill everyone 

630
00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:24,280
because it's a few chapters 
later they're in more words with

631
00:40:24,280 --> 00:40:27,600
the Malachite, so obviously 
there's some of them. 

632
00:40:28,360 --> 00:40:31,240
And I want the audience to know 
that you actually do an 

633
00:40:31,280 --> 00:40:34,440
incredible job with a very close
reading of the text to 

634
00:40:34,440 --> 00:40:36,640
demonstrate the position that 
you're taking. 

635
00:40:37,080 --> 00:40:39,560
It's beyond the scope of the 
podcast to go into all the 

636
00:40:39,560 --> 00:40:43,280
details, but you know, it, it 
didn't get spoken out, but the, 

637
00:40:43,280 --> 00:40:45,040
but the audience should know the
God willing, when they buy the 

638
00:40:45,040 --> 00:40:48,120
book and they read it, you, you 
treat it very, very seriously. 

639
00:40:48,120 --> 00:40:50,920
The the the close reading to get
to the point that you're getting

640
00:40:50,920 --> 00:40:53,440
at with with like. 
I just wanted to point that out.

641
00:40:53,720 --> 00:40:57,000
Right, I'll just, I'll just as a
teaser, yes, I'll just mention 

642
00:40:57,160 --> 00:41:02,400
that when Samuel himself kills a
GOG, he says, he says to him, I 

643
00:41:02,400 --> 00:41:06,800
am going to make your, your 
mother into a bereaved parent. 

644
00:41:08,360 --> 00:41:11,560
But if all the women and 
children had been killed, a 

645
00:41:11,560 --> 00:41:15,520
God's mother isn't around, but 
more in a God's death. 

646
00:41:15,760 --> 00:41:19,840
So that, that actually that was 
the key that I saw that, that 

647
00:41:19,880 --> 00:41:22,440
that originally made me start 
wondering what is going on in 

648
00:41:22,440 --> 00:41:23,840
the story. 
And then of course, you know, we

649
00:41:23,840 --> 00:41:25,680
see there's so many Amalekites 
left afterwards. 

650
00:41:25,680 --> 00:41:27,800
And then I started, you know, 
going into this in depth reading

651
00:41:27,800 --> 00:41:29,920
you're talking about. 
So anyway, the other the other 

652
00:41:30,200 --> 00:41:34,600
character I deal with in that 
chapter is Jonah. 

653
00:41:35,880 --> 00:41:38,240
Before we get to Jonah, I just 
want to finish on that point 

654
00:41:38,240 --> 00:41:41,880
because our rabbi explained this
exact same point that few 

655
00:41:41,880 --> 00:41:45,400
chapters later, Daveed's group 
gets plundered, attacked by 

656
00:41:45,400 --> 00:41:49,040
Amalekites that basically 
they're like pirates who, you 

657
00:41:49,040 --> 00:41:50,720
know, attack poorly defended 
communities. 

658
00:41:50,840 --> 00:41:54,200
So they represent like a culture
that thrives on injustice, that 

659
00:41:54,360 --> 00:41:57,640
preys on the weak. 
So the idea of, of, of wiping 

660
00:41:57,640 --> 00:42:01,560
out Amalek may not necessarily 
be about, you know, a genocide 

661
00:42:01,560 --> 00:42:02,240
per SE. 
It's not. 

662
00:42:02,240 --> 00:42:05,440
It's it's just about this 
ideology cannot be tolerated 

663
00:42:05,440 --> 00:42:08,400
because it stands in stark 
contrast with what civilization 

664
00:42:08,400 --> 00:42:11,240
should be like. 
Yeah, I I know that. 

665
00:42:11,960 --> 00:42:18,400
I know that that that the other 
99.99% of people relate to to 

666
00:42:18,440 --> 00:42:23,000
Amalek as being some kind of 
symbol of essential evil, 

667
00:42:24,040 --> 00:42:27,000
etcetera. 
But I would point out that in 

668
00:42:27,000 --> 00:42:30,800
the Torah itself, it, when it 
gives the command to destroy 

669
00:42:30,800 --> 00:42:34,240
Amalek, it says when you have 
taken care of all of your 

670
00:42:34,240 --> 00:42:38,640
enemies around you, then go 
after Amalek. 

671
00:42:39,560 --> 00:42:41,600
So in other words, it's a very 
strange kind of war. 

672
00:42:41,600 --> 00:42:44,840
It's a war. 
It's a commandment to to fight a

673
00:42:44,840 --> 00:42:51,560
war, which by definition is not 
a security necessity because 

674
00:42:52,320 --> 00:42:55,360
because the mitzvah says and the
Torah after God has gotten rid 

675
00:42:55,360 --> 00:42:58,320
of all of your enemies around 
you, then you go after Amalek. 

676
00:42:59,800 --> 00:43:02,600
So, so like, what is that? 
All right, So should I say a 

677
00:43:02,600 --> 00:43:05,160
little bit about the about? 
Jonah, a little bit about Jonah,

678
00:43:05,240 --> 00:43:07,480
yes. 
So, so Jonah, I would, I'll just

679
00:43:07,480 --> 00:43:12,840
throw in that I, I take a line 
which I think the Barbonell took

680
00:43:12,840 --> 00:43:19,320
and I especially build I on an 
article by by my father, my not 

681
00:43:19,320 --> 00:43:24,640
my father, my father-in-law, the
late rabbi, Professor Norman 

682
00:43:24,640 --> 00:43:29,440
Fredman. 
I love a Shalom with the idea 

683
00:43:29,920 --> 00:43:37,720
that that Jonah is really stuck 
in in, in a, in a quandary, a 

684
00:43:37,720 --> 00:43:40,800
kind of like, and you have an A 
science fiction movie with with 

685
00:43:40,800 --> 00:43:42,400
time travel, perhaps. 
You know, there's all these 

686
00:43:42,400 --> 00:43:46,280
movies where somebody goes back 
in time and then there's and and

687
00:43:46,280 --> 00:43:49,000
there's a baby called called 
little Adolf Hitler. 

688
00:43:49,520 --> 00:43:52,440
Wow. 
So I have an opportunity to kill

689
00:43:52,440 --> 00:43:54,480
the baby Adolf Hitler. 
Am I supposed to kill him? 

690
00:43:56,200 --> 00:43:58,080
You know, is that is that my 
moral duty? 

691
00:43:58,600 --> 00:44:01,520
Although at at this point he 
would seem to just be a baby. 

692
00:44:02,040 --> 00:44:07,520
He's not quite that guilty yet. 
And we have Jonah, who is a 

693
00:44:07,520 --> 00:44:10,440
prophet of of the northern 
Kingdom of Israel. 

694
00:44:12,040 --> 00:44:17,520
And he is sent, he's asked by 
God to go to Ninva, which is the

695
00:44:17,520 --> 00:44:20,560
capital of the Assyrian, where 
historians might say a neo 

696
00:44:20,560 --> 00:44:24,520
Assyrian empire and to warn them
that they're about to be 

697
00:44:24,520 --> 00:44:26,560
destroyed by God. 
In other words, that they had 

698
00:44:26,560 --> 00:44:31,000
better repent when I assume and 
other I'm not the only 

699
00:44:31,000 --> 00:44:33,640
interpreter right by my like 
father-in-law. 

700
00:44:33,640 --> 00:44:40,680
I think also at least others 
that as as a prophet, Jonah is 

701
00:44:40,680 --> 00:44:46,280
very well aware that these these
neo Assyrians are going to 

702
00:44:46,280 --> 00:44:50,280
eventually destroy the northern 
Kingdom and then they'll send 

703
00:44:50,280 --> 00:44:52,520
the 10, the 10 tribes into 
exile. 

704
00:44:53,680 --> 00:44:57,000
So this is quite a problem. 
What do you do when you were 

705
00:44:57,000 --> 00:44:59,960
supposed to, you know, that God 
is planning on destroying your 

706
00:44:59,960 --> 00:45:05,200
future enemy and he's sending 
you to see if you can get them 

707
00:45:05,480 --> 00:45:09,880
to repent. 
Wouldn't you rather let God just

708
00:45:09,880 --> 00:45:12,640
destroy them? 
And that is that that's that's 

709
00:45:12,640 --> 00:45:14,520
Jonah's problem. 
He is really stuck between 

710
00:45:15,120 --> 00:45:20,000
between his very legitimate 
concern for the Israelite nation

711
00:45:21,000 --> 00:45:23,880
and his duty as a prophet. 
And I forgot this one of the 

712
00:45:24,040 --> 00:45:28,360
Rasheem says that the don't know
his his love for that for his 

713
00:45:28,360 --> 00:45:31,760
love for the son, for Amis was 
greater than the love for the 

714
00:45:31,760 --> 00:45:35,720
for his father, for God, you 
know, and yeah, so he held back.

715
00:45:37,240 --> 00:45:40,000
Now what's interesting is I 
think I think that when you read

716
00:45:40,240 --> 00:45:43,800
the book of Jonah carefully, you
can see it's it's extremely 

717
00:45:43,800 --> 00:45:48,600
cynical about about Minve about 
about these Assyrians. 

718
00:45:48,600 --> 00:45:52,920
It describes them they're 
they're they're doing Chuva the 

719
00:45:52,920 --> 00:45:56,520
repentance in in a very stupid, 
crass way. 

720
00:45:56,520 --> 00:46:01,760
They have the animals are are 
wearing sackcloth and you have 

721
00:46:01,760 --> 00:46:04,360
Jonah afterwards wondering. 
So what's going to happen is 

722
00:46:04,360 --> 00:46:08,920
this is this very crass 
repentance going to be accepted 

723
00:46:08,920 --> 00:46:10,520
by God? 
And I think also we have to take

724
00:46:10,520 --> 00:46:13,120
into account at the time, I 
think that that this empire was 

725
00:46:13,120 --> 00:46:16,320
already known as a kind of sort 
of the Nazis of the ancient 

726
00:46:16,320 --> 00:46:17,960
world. 
It was a very horrible empire 

727
00:46:17,960 --> 00:46:22,000
even before, even before they, 
they destroyed the, the Northern

728
00:46:22,000 --> 00:46:25,440
Kingdom. 
And and so you have again a kind

729
00:46:25,440 --> 00:46:30,280
of a dance Drona is waiting to 
see will God destroy them? 

730
00:46:30,400 --> 00:46:34,120
That's why you have the story of
of of the plant where that God 

731
00:46:34,120 --> 00:46:37,760
has grows and gives Jonah shade 
and Jonah thinks sitting on on 

732
00:46:37,760 --> 00:46:39,080
the side thinking, Oh, this is 
great. 

733
00:46:39,080 --> 00:46:43,040
God has has created a place, a 
grandstand for me to sit here 

734
00:46:43,280 --> 00:46:46,840
and wait to see Nimba destroyed 
and the northern Kingdom in the 

735
00:46:46,840 --> 00:46:50,280
future saved. 
But in the end it doesn't it 

736
00:46:50,280 --> 00:46:52,800
doesn't work. 
God says no, no, it's a big 

737
00:46:52,800 --> 00:46:55,960
city. 
Interestingly, he doesn't really

738
00:46:55,960 --> 00:46:58,760
punish Jonah in the end. 
It's true that there was a there

739
00:46:58,760 --> 00:47:01,600
was the interlude in the in the 
belly of the of the fish and all

740
00:47:01,600 --> 00:47:05,440
of that. 
But generally speaking, God 

741
00:47:05,440 --> 00:47:10,800
seems to accept that Jonah was 
working under understandable, 

742
00:47:11,000 --> 00:47:13,520
credible tension between 
different duties. 

743
00:47:14,160 --> 00:47:19,960
And again, I, I read the last, 
the last verse of the book as as

744
00:47:19,960 --> 00:47:22,680
God sort of once again being 
ironic about it, where he said, 

745
00:47:22,680 --> 00:47:24,240
you know, what do you expect me 
to do? 

746
00:47:24,280 --> 00:47:27,920
You know, you look at all these 
thousands of people in, in Ninva

747
00:47:28,120 --> 00:47:31,360
and all the animals. 
And I think whenever I hear that

748
00:47:31,360 --> 00:47:33,880
line, when, you know, when I 
hear the Haftarah, you're not 

749
00:47:33,880 --> 00:47:36,160
red. 
And then and, and God says, and 

750
00:47:36,160 --> 00:47:39,600
the animals, I'm thinking that 
there should be like some kind 

751
00:47:39,600 --> 00:47:44,480
of drum roll or something of, of
like the end of of a joke being 

752
00:47:44,480 --> 00:47:46,400
told that by a stand up 
comedian. 

753
00:47:47,200 --> 00:47:49,920
The God is saying, yeah, I know 
they're, they're crazy. 

754
00:47:50,000 --> 00:47:52,440
They thought that the animals 
who wear sackcloth, I know these

755
00:47:52,440 --> 00:47:54,440
guys are idiots. 
Yeah. 

756
00:47:54,480 --> 00:47:56,840
And that's why God has to 
mention the animals in the end. 

757
00:47:57,200 --> 00:48:01,040
You know, he's he's sort of 
giving, throwing the last bone 

758
00:48:01,040 --> 00:48:05,640
to Jonah saying, look, I know 
I'm letting them live. 

759
00:48:05,760 --> 00:48:09,640
I know that that I know they're 
lowlifes and I know their 

760
00:48:09,640 --> 00:48:13,440
repentance look ridiculous, but 
what can you do? 

761
00:48:13,440 --> 00:48:15,200
Yeah, the animals. 
Yeah, sure. 

762
00:48:15,720 --> 00:48:19,400
So anyway, that's basically how 
I read that is another story of 

763
00:48:19,400 --> 00:48:22,840
the tension legit again, 
legitimate, legitimate duty of 

764
00:48:23,280 --> 00:48:26,600
of of Jonah to to the northern 
Kingdom. 

765
00:48:27,080 --> 00:48:30,040
And once again, he has a kind of
he has a relationship with God, 

766
00:48:30,040 --> 00:48:33,640
which requires him to serve as a
prophet will save these people 

767
00:48:33,640 --> 00:48:34,800
who are going to destroy the 
Kingdom. 

768
00:48:35,040 --> 00:48:36,560
How do you read the Kikayon 
part? 

769
00:48:37,240 --> 00:48:41,600
Again, the Kikayon I read that 
as at first Jonah is very happy 

770
00:48:41,600 --> 00:48:45,920
about it because I think he he 
is not sure what's going to 

771
00:48:45,920 --> 00:48:47,400
happen. 
He thinks there's still a chance

772
00:48:47,400 --> 00:48:50,040
that that God is going to 
destroy Nineveh. 

773
00:48:50,240 --> 00:48:54,000
So when he's leaving Ninvea and 
going like, like he like he like

774
00:48:54,000 --> 00:48:56,480
situates himself right within, 
within view. 

775
00:48:56,480 --> 00:49:01,120
So that's him hoping that God is
going to, in a sense, listen to 

776
00:49:01,440 --> 00:49:04,520
what he's been. 
Complaining about complaining 

777
00:49:04,520 --> 00:49:05,840
about. 
OK, yeah, God will. 

778
00:49:05,880 --> 00:49:08,040
Get to that scene, how that 
whole thing plays out so you. 

779
00:49:08,160 --> 00:49:13,400
Have so you have there was this 
there's very crass repentance on

780
00:49:13,400 --> 00:49:15,000
the part of the people of 
Minvei. 

781
00:49:16,920 --> 00:49:19,560
Then Jonah's not sure what's 
going to come of all of this 

782
00:49:20,040 --> 00:49:21,400
because they were horrible 
people. 

783
00:49:21,400 --> 00:49:23,240
You know we know from the 
historical record before they 

784
00:49:23,240 --> 00:49:24,360
you know they were really 
horrible. 

785
00:49:24,360 --> 00:49:27,720
You know it says that that Hamas
I should be Adam right like that

786
00:49:27,760 --> 00:49:28,920
terrible violence in their 
hands. 

787
00:49:29,280 --> 00:49:32,360
It was a terrible society and so
he's sitting there wondering 

788
00:49:32,360 --> 00:49:35,160
what's going to happen. 
God creates the Kikayo and this 

789
00:49:35,160 --> 00:49:38,520
plant which gives them shade. 
And that would seem to be 

790
00:49:38,520 --> 00:49:41,160
saying, yeah, just wait, you're 
right. 

791
00:49:41,160 --> 00:49:42,560
Sit here, It's going. 
To be OK. 

792
00:49:43,920 --> 00:49:47,880
I am creating, I am creating a, 
a shaded grandstand for you. 

793
00:49:47,880 --> 00:49:50,480
Just wait till see what happens,
right? 

794
00:49:50,480 --> 00:49:52,320
It's not just a stupid plant, 
right? 

795
00:49:52,680 --> 00:49:57,880
And then when the plant is 
destroyed, then that is, it's 

796
00:49:57,880 --> 00:50:01,200
not just that that the plant is 
destroyed and it's uncomfortable

797
00:50:01,200 --> 00:50:04,120
to sit in the sun. 
It's that there's nothing to 

798
00:50:04,120 --> 00:50:05,200
wait for. 
There's nothing. 

799
00:50:05,360 --> 00:50:09,600
Nothing's going to happen. 
There's no, there's no reason to

800
00:50:09,600 --> 00:50:11,520
stay in that spot. 
There's no reason to stay in 

801
00:50:11,520 --> 00:50:14,400
that spot anymore because they 
will be saved, you know? 

802
00:50:14,400 --> 00:50:16,200
Yeah, we're. 
We're we're taking down the 

803
00:50:16,200 --> 00:50:18,720
beach umbrella because you're 
going to go. 

804
00:50:20,320 --> 00:50:21,640
That's actually what do you see 
here. 

805
00:50:21,640 --> 00:50:24,600
Very interesting the way you put
it, that's that's kind of yeah. 

806
00:50:25,160 --> 00:50:29,720
So, so the, the gourd, the 
kikayon or whatever, however we 

807
00:50:29,720 --> 00:50:34,280
want to call it, is sort of a 
symbolism of, of, of Yona's 

808
00:50:34,280 --> 00:50:37,400
expectation. 
So that when, when, when he gets

809
00:50:37,400 --> 00:50:41,520
shaded by the gourd, he's he's 
sitting there and he's thinking 

810
00:50:41,520 --> 00:50:45,400
that God is going to follow 
through with, with his own 

811
00:50:46,520 --> 00:50:49,480
expectation of them being 
destroyed and then all. 

812
00:50:49,560 --> 00:50:50,720
Why else would he be sitting 
there? 

813
00:50:50,720 --> 00:50:51,640
Why? 
Else would he be sitting there 

814
00:50:51,880 --> 00:50:55,280
and then, and then when he wakes
up the following morning and the

815
00:50:55,280 --> 00:50:59,240
gourd is destroyed, he realizes 
that God essentially took the 

816
00:50:59,240 --> 00:51:05,280
Syrian the Syrian sympathies 
over his and and so then those 

817
00:51:05,280 --> 00:51:10,280
last few words with God when, 
when God says, you know, when, 

818
00:51:10,400 --> 00:51:12,760
when he starts to give him the 
whole like, you know, you care 

819
00:51:12,760 --> 00:51:15,800
about the Kion. 
You know, how much more so 

820
00:51:15,800 --> 00:51:17,600
should I? 
How does that play into the same

821
00:51:17,800 --> 00:51:22,480
point that you're? 
I think it's I I would have to 

822
00:51:22,480 --> 00:51:26,120
take it as as God. 
I mean, you can always say this 

823
00:51:26,120 --> 00:51:28,400
is the way that you deal with 
problems and shot by saying that

824
00:51:28,400 --> 00:51:30,920
there's some kind of rhetorical 
move being made or it could be, 

825
00:51:30,920 --> 00:51:35,240
but but so God is not directly 
addressing, you know, what the 

826
00:51:35,240 --> 00:51:40,760
Kyon meant for him, right? 
He's it's it's sort of a 

827
00:51:40,760 --> 00:51:45,960
sarcastic way of relating to the
situation, right, right. 

828
00:51:45,960 --> 00:51:48,560
So also the Akeeda isn't that 
chapter. 

829
00:51:48,560 --> 00:51:50,160
Did you want me to say something
about the Akeeda? 

830
00:51:50,840 --> 00:51:53,320
Yeah, you know what, Yes, and 
and we'll wrap up with Akeeda. 

831
00:51:53,320 --> 00:51:55,240
But yes, please do wrap up with 
Akeeda. 

832
00:51:55,240 --> 00:51:56,200
That would be. 
Fantastic. 

833
00:51:56,200 --> 00:51:59,720
All right, so with the Akeeda, I
argue, you know, you could, you 

834
00:51:59,720 --> 00:52:03,040
could wonder. 
So far we've had, I've told you 

835
00:52:03,040 --> 00:52:06,680
stories about Abraham arguing 
with God over the destruction of

836
00:52:06,680 --> 00:52:10,880
stone. 
We've seen Shaul not willing to 

837
00:52:10,880 --> 00:52:14,080
kill all of the Amalekites. 
And apparently God was sort of 

838
00:52:14,120 --> 00:52:17,080
OK with that part of what he 
didn't do. 

839
00:52:17,360 --> 00:52:22,920
And we have Yonah is is trying 
to protect the northern Kingdom 

840
00:52:22,920 --> 00:52:25,160
by by hoping that that the 
Assyrians will be killed. 

841
00:52:25,440 --> 00:52:27,960
What is happening in the Al 
Qaeda with that? 

842
00:52:27,960 --> 00:52:32,960
When God asks Abraham to 
sacrifice Isaac, it doesn't say 

843
00:52:32,960 --> 00:52:34,120
anything. 
You'd think that this would be 

844
00:52:34,120 --> 00:52:42,080
the perfect example of a 
contradiction between some 

845
00:52:42,080 --> 00:52:44,720
divine plan that, wow, this time
we really can't figure out 

846
00:52:44,720 --> 00:52:48,400
what's going on. 
That would apparently it looked 

847
00:52:48,400 --> 00:52:54,240
like it would require Abraham to
sacrifice Isaac like that. 

848
00:52:54,240 --> 00:52:57,440
That seems to be the request. 
And what is the relationship 

849
00:52:57,840 --> 00:53:03,160
between that and Abraham's basic
human morality, which would say 

850
00:53:03,240 --> 00:53:05,200
you don't murder and you 
certainly don't murder your own 

851
00:53:05,200 --> 00:53:07,920
son. 
So this is this is a classic 

852
00:53:07,920 --> 00:53:13,080
text for all philosophical 
discussion of, of contradictions

853
00:53:13,080 --> 00:53:15,680
between the divine commands and 
human morality, right. 

854
00:53:15,680 --> 00:53:19,640
And in fact, I, I, in the, in 
the book, I to some extent, I, 

855
00:53:19,640 --> 00:53:25,040
I, I even, you know, frame the 
discussion in terms of one of 

856
00:53:25,040 --> 00:53:28,560
the classic articles, not by a 
Jewish philosopher, if I recall,

857
00:53:28,720 --> 00:53:30,320
who, you know, who is concerned 
with that. 

858
00:53:30,320 --> 00:53:32,880
Basically, the question is, what
happened to Abraham? 

859
00:53:33,000 --> 00:53:35,560
He was willing to stand up for 
Stone and he doesn't stand up 

860
00:53:35,560 --> 00:53:41,200
for his own son. 
So my solution is a solution 

861
00:53:41,200 --> 00:53:44,880
which I already know a lot of 
people don't like because I 

862
00:53:44,880 --> 00:53:48,320
published that many years ago in
the defunct journal called 

863
00:53:48,320 --> 00:53:52,160
Judaism of the American Jewish 
Congress, which unfortunately 

864
00:53:52,160 --> 00:53:54,680
they had. 
They had invested a lot of money

865
00:53:54,680 --> 00:53:57,720
with Bernie Madoff and they 
ended up not having enough money

866
00:53:57,720 --> 00:54:00,120
to keep the the journal afloat. 
And that's why it doesn't exist 

867
00:54:00,120 --> 00:54:04,640
anymore. 
In any event, they they were 

868
00:54:04,640 --> 00:54:07,960
upset about this, about this 
article, because they said I was

869
00:54:07,960 --> 00:54:12,800
reducing A philosophically deep 
story into a folk tale so people

870
00:54:12,800 --> 00:54:15,800
can decide. 
What I say is this. 

871
00:54:17,080 --> 00:54:25,680
Abraham had been given a direct 
promise by God that Isaac would 

872
00:54:25,680 --> 00:54:29,440
continue his line, and Abraham 
was supposed to have many 

873
00:54:29,440 --> 00:54:31,960
progeny, and it was supposed to 
be through Isaac. 

874
00:54:32,160 --> 00:54:36,120
This was God's promise. 
On the other hand, God is 

875
00:54:36,120 --> 00:54:38,600
telling Abraham, now go 
sacrifice it. 

876
00:54:40,760 --> 00:54:45,400
So my claim is that Abraham 
actually has no moral quandary 

877
00:54:45,800 --> 00:54:47,840
because he believes God's 
promise. 

878
00:54:49,320 --> 00:54:53,960
He knows that whatever is going 
to happen now, he's going to be 

879
00:54:53,960 --> 00:54:58,440
doing what God told him to do, 
but somehow is going to work out

880
00:54:58,880 --> 00:55:02,680
that it's OK. 
Isaac is going to survive this, 

881
00:55:02,840 --> 00:55:06,040
this adventure. 
Because for him to think that 

882
00:55:06,040 --> 00:55:10,160
Isaac won't survive the 
adventure would mean that he has

883
00:55:10,160 --> 00:55:19,760
lost faith in God's promise. 
And in that case, what but 

884
00:55:20,280 --> 00:55:23,720
Kierkegaard and before him, 
Emmanuel Kant and all kinds of 

885
00:55:23,720 --> 00:55:26,200
people saw as a very 
philosophically loaded 

886
00:55:26,200 --> 00:55:29,720
situation. 
I think that like, like every 

887
00:55:29,720 --> 00:55:35,560
other test of morality in the 
Tanakh, it is it is completely 

888
00:55:35,560 --> 00:55:38,360
uninteresting in a philosophical
way. 

889
00:55:39,120 --> 00:55:42,280
There's nothing, there's nothing
complicated for Abraham to for 

890
00:55:42,280 --> 00:55:46,200
Abraham to figure out here. 
He believes God's promise. 

891
00:55:46,640 --> 00:55:52,040
He can go ahead and do what goes
far as he wants, fulfilling 

892
00:55:52,040 --> 00:55:56,240
God's command, and he knows that
actually it will be OK. 

893
00:55:57,240 --> 00:55:59,960
So what kind of test is this? 
I say it's like a, it's a moral 

894
00:55:59,960 --> 00:56:03,120
test like every other, every 
other test in Tanakh. 

895
00:56:03,720 --> 00:56:06,760
It's like the test of Joseph in 
the House of Potiphar. 

896
00:56:07,000 --> 00:56:11,120
You don't have to have taken a 
course in philosophical ethics 

897
00:56:11,120 --> 00:56:13,800
to know that you shouldn't sleep
with the boss's wife. 

898
00:56:15,880 --> 00:56:17,680
That was not the problem for 
Joseph. 

899
00:56:17,680 --> 00:56:20,880
It wasn't. 
It wasn't figuring out what you 

900
00:56:20,880 --> 00:56:24,640
know, what the different ways of
analyzing the situation will 

901
00:56:24,640 --> 00:56:25,800
bring me to different 
conclusions. 

902
00:56:26,160 --> 00:56:29,200
No, it's a problem that when 
you're a, when you're a young 

903
00:56:29,200 --> 00:56:31,360
man in the prime of your life 
and you're a slave, and there's 

904
00:56:31,360 --> 00:56:35,560
this woman who keeps on 
propositioning you even though 

905
00:56:35,560 --> 00:56:37,520
it's obvious that you shouldn't 
give in. 

906
00:56:38,840 --> 00:56:42,560
It's an emotionally difficult 
situation to to give the answer 

907
00:56:42,560 --> 00:56:44,480
on the test. 
You don't sleep with the with 

908
00:56:44,520 --> 00:56:47,040
with this married woman is 
obvious. 

909
00:56:47,320 --> 00:56:51,640
But when you're there dealing 
with the reality of the 

910
00:56:51,640 --> 00:56:54,320
situation is the real test of 
character. 

911
00:56:54,600 --> 00:56:59,720
So I say it's the same thing 
with Abraham on paper, No, no 

912
00:56:59,720 --> 00:57:02,520
philosophical problem. 
God has promised Isaac will 

913
00:57:02,520 --> 00:57:05,080
live. 
God keeps his promises. 

914
00:57:05,080 --> 00:57:07,400
You believe in nothing to worry 
about. 

915
00:57:08,240 --> 00:57:12,680
But what happens in reality when
you have to live with this and 

916
00:57:12,680 --> 00:57:14,480
you're walking and you're 
walking and you're getting to 

917
00:57:14,480 --> 00:57:16,720
the you're getting to the hell 
and you're taking out the knife 

918
00:57:16,760 --> 00:57:19,920
and you're doing all of this 
stuff already. 

919
00:57:19,920 --> 00:57:24,040
What makes perfect sense? 
It's hard to let the perfectly 

920
00:57:24,040 --> 00:57:29,400
logical and rational approach 
have that control your your 

921
00:57:29,400 --> 00:57:32,920
behavior. 
And I compared it to a kind of 

922
00:57:32,920 --> 00:57:36,200
team building exercise that 
people may may know about, where

923
00:57:36,200 --> 00:57:41,720
you have one person stands with 
their back to another and the 

924
00:57:41,720 --> 00:57:44,120
other person and the person 
behind them has their arms out. 

925
00:57:44,720 --> 00:57:47,960
And you ask the person who's 
standing in front, do you think 

926
00:57:47,960 --> 00:57:51,960
the person behind you is strong 
enough to catch you if you fall?

927
00:57:52,600 --> 00:57:55,440
Yes, of course. 
Do you think that they will 

928
00:57:55,440 --> 00:57:58,280
catch you if you fall? 
Yes, of course. 

929
00:57:58,520 --> 00:58:02,200
Is it dangerous for you to just 
keep your legs straight and fall

930
00:58:02,200 --> 00:58:05,560
straight back into their arms? 
No, it's not at all dangerous. 

931
00:58:05,920 --> 00:58:08,200
Fine, let's see you do it. 
Right. 

932
00:58:08,200 --> 00:58:11,880
It it's taking it from the from 
the realm of of the of the 

933
00:58:11,880 --> 00:58:14,920
theoretical to the actual. 
To the actual and here it's 

934
00:58:14,920 --> 00:58:19,160
something we're talking about a 
kind of faith that it's like 

935
00:58:19,160 --> 00:58:21,800
it's not in the it's, it's 
almost it's it's in your muscle 

936
00:58:21,800 --> 00:58:25,800
memory almost right. 
It's like really real, not just 

937
00:58:25,800 --> 00:58:29,160
believing God's promise 
intellectually, but really 

938
00:58:29,160 --> 00:58:32,400
believe in God's promise. 
Just like in order for me to 

939
00:58:32,400 --> 00:58:35,640
fall back into someone's arms, 
it's not enough for me to be 

940
00:58:35,800 --> 00:58:38,120
intellectually aware that it's 
perfectly safe. 

941
00:58:38,280 --> 00:58:40,200
I have to convince my knees not 
to buckle. 

942
00:58:41,520 --> 00:58:46,120
And that shows as far as 
character goes, a much this, 

943
00:58:46,120 --> 00:58:50,040
this faith in the other person 
is much more deeply embedded in 

944
00:58:50,040 --> 00:58:52,560
in my in my psyche, in my 
character, in my body. 

945
00:58:53,120 --> 00:58:57,880
And here we see Abraham's faith 
in God is just rock solid. 

946
00:58:58,840 --> 00:59:00,320
He has, he has no problem. 
He can. 

947
00:59:00,320 --> 00:59:02,000
He can go through with it 
because he knows that it'll be 

948
00:59:02,000 --> 00:59:04,280
OK. 
It's almost like so as he's 

949
00:59:04,280 --> 00:59:07,840
going through, as he's walking 
up the mountain, he's expecting 

950
00:59:07,840 --> 00:59:10,840
the situation to resolve itself.
He just doesn't know how. 

951
00:59:11,000 --> 00:59:13,880
So he just keeps going and going
until that last second and he's 

952
00:59:13,880 --> 00:59:16,960
still at that last second. 
That's where it's getting, it's 

953
00:59:16,960 --> 00:59:20,120
getting dicey. 
But he's, he's expecting 

954
00:59:20,440 --> 00:59:23,600
something to resolve itself in a
situation which it ultimately 

955
00:59:23,600 --> 00:59:25,360
does. 
And but the whole point is to 

956
00:59:25,360 --> 00:59:28,920
let it linger to the final 
second to, to, to allow him to 

957
00:59:28,920 --> 00:59:33,440
actualize that, that trust in, 
in, in in the best way possible.

958
00:59:34,120 --> 00:59:36,120
Right. 
Exactly. 

959
00:59:36,480 --> 00:59:38,120
I, I actually, I'll be very 
honest with you. 

960
00:59:38,840 --> 00:59:42,440
I appreciate the non 
philosophical readings of that 

961
00:59:42,440 --> 00:59:44,120
of the whole episode. 
I, I think that sometimes 

962
00:59:44,520 --> 00:59:47,360
there's too much philosophical 
readings going on in the Torah. 

963
00:59:47,360 --> 00:59:50,160
And I think that sometimes if we
can actually just read the Torah

964
00:59:50,160 --> 00:59:53,440
as a text and to just just enter
the characters and and just kind

965
00:59:53,440 --> 00:59:58,720
of allow it to, to project it 
into a more, you know, you know.

966
01:00:00,440 --> 01:00:03,000
Kind of simplifying it in a way 
where where we'll just take take

967
01:00:03,000 --> 01:00:06,320
these the the stories and and go
along with them and try to put 

968
01:00:06,320 --> 01:00:08,880
ourselves in Abraham's mind and 
shoes and how that would be. 

969
01:00:09,040 --> 01:00:11,840
I feel like we get to something 
a more more real than sometimes 

970
01:00:11,840 --> 01:00:14,640
just, you know, abstract, you 
know, philosophical discussions 

971
01:00:14,640 --> 01:00:16,440
around that K dot. 
Not that those are bad, but I 

972
01:00:16,440 --> 01:00:18,440
just, I appreciate, I appreciate
this very much. 

973
01:00:18,800 --> 01:00:22,400
I, I would also say that that 
being acquainted with some of 

974
01:00:22,400 --> 01:00:27,040
the philosophical discussions, 
actually I'm not so happy about 

975
01:00:27,040 --> 01:00:31,800
them, right, because, you know, 
I think, I think it was Martin 

976
01:00:31,800 --> 01:00:37,240
Luther to say who said what was 
sacrificed on Moria. 

977
01:00:37,400 --> 01:00:40,320
Moria was, was human reason, 
something like that. 

978
01:00:41,000 --> 01:00:44,360
No thanks. 
You know, the whole, you know, 

979
01:00:44,360 --> 01:00:49,120
the whole Torah is telling us, 
you know, with all due respect 

980
01:00:49,120 --> 01:00:51,920
to everything I've said about 
sometimes God's plans and do not

981
01:00:51,920 --> 01:00:58,080
fit, you know, 99% of the time 
what God wants, what you know, 

982
01:00:58,360 --> 01:01:02,120
God's plan is for us to be as 
good as, you know, good also in 

983
01:01:02,120 --> 01:01:05,120
human moral terms. 
And the Torah is supposed to be 

984
01:01:05,120 --> 01:01:08,640
a Torah, which is our wisdom in 
the, in the eyes of the nations.

985
01:01:10,400 --> 01:01:14,720
So the idea that this great, 
this great pivotal story in the 

986
01:01:14,720 --> 01:01:19,360
Torah would fly in the face of 
the entire message of the Torah 

987
01:01:19,360 --> 01:01:22,200
that, you know, God may be doing
what he's doing, you know, and 

988
01:01:22,200 --> 01:01:24,040
that's God. 
But as far as what he wants us 

989
01:01:24,040 --> 01:01:30,400
to do is, is basically to be 
moral people in the in, in a 

990
01:01:30,440 --> 01:01:33,840
human sense. 
So, you know, I think that 

991
01:01:33,840 --> 01:01:37,040
that's A to to try to understand
all these philosophical 

992
01:01:37,040 --> 01:01:39,760
understandings of the story 
would be very dangerous and and 

993
01:01:39,760 --> 01:01:41,880
just. 
You know, just I would think 

994
01:01:41,880 --> 01:01:45,040
that even I was saying that even
I was saying that even even the 

995
01:01:45,040 --> 01:01:47,880
philosophical readings that are 
more agreeable to what we're 

996
01:01:47,880 --> 01:01:49,880
saying. 
All right, I'll say I was 

997
01:01:49,880 --> 01:01:52,840
including even that in a sense. 
And then sometimes I think that 

998
01:01:53,160 --> 01:01:56,160
just projecting too many 
philosophical notions, sometimes

999
01:01:56,360 --> 01:01:59,160
it distracts from a close 
reading and personal reading of 

1000
01:01:59,160 --> 01:02:00,480
the text. 
That's all I was saying. 

1001
01:02:00,720 --> 01:02:05,160
And I think that a lot of your 
book very much is is, you know, 

1002
01:02:05,320 --> 01:02:07,080
we thoroughly enjoyed it. 
Angie, I know you enjoyed it. 

1003
01:02:08,000 --> 01:02:10,400
I thought that, you know, we're 
fans. 

1004
01:02:10,760 --> 01:02:14,080
I'm I'm a big fan of, of close 
reading of the text and really 

1005
01:02:14,080 --> 01:02:17,360
just getting into into the text 
itself and letting it speak for 

1006
01:02:17,360 --> 01:02:20,480
itself and letting us in a 
sense, draw our ideas out of the

1007
01:02:20,480 --> 01:02:22,960
text instead of drawing ideas 
into the text. 

1008
01:02:23,200 --> 01:02:25,280
And I and I feel a lot of a lot 
of a lot of what you do here 

1009
01:02:25,440 --> 01:02:27,360
really brings out the text 
authentically. 

1010
01:02:27,520 --> 01:02:31,680
I think that it's very hard in a
podcast, especially only have to

1011
01:02:31,680 --> 01:02:35,240
have an hour to to really do 
justice for everything that you 

1012
01:02:35,400 --> 01:02:36,840
bring to the table with your 
book. 

1013
01:02:37,040 --> 01:02:39,840
We want people to know that you 
know that this is a book worth 

1014
01:02:39,840 --> 01:02:41,840
getting it. 
It was a Rabbi Sacks finalist 

1015
01:02:42,520 --> 01:02:46,160
and it is extremely well done. 
You have you're very sensitive 

1016
01:02:46,160 --> 01:02:48,400
to everything that goes on in 
the text. 

1017
01:02:49,120 --> 01:02:51,880
And it it was just pleasure to 
speak to you and. 

1018
01:02:51,880 --> 01:02:53,400
Thank you so much. 
So again, it's human divine 

1019
01:02:53,400 --> 01:02:56,080
Interactions in the Hebrew 
Scriptures, Covenants and Cross 

1020
01:02:56,080 --> 01:02:58,320
Purposes by Professor Beryl Dove
Lerner. 

1021
01:02:58,560 --> 01:03:01,720
This is the book. 
We we really urge you guys to 

1022
01:03:01,760 --> 01:03:03,200
check it out. 
It's fantastic. 

1023
01:03:03,200 --> 01:03:04,240
And where can they find the 
book? 

1024
01:03:05,880 --> 01:03:09,800
You know, on Amazon and and 
whatever, I would just add that 

1025
01:03:11,120 --> 01:03:15,320
I really like to talk to people.
So, you know, people can, can 

1026
01:03:15,320 --> 01:03:20,000
just like look up my name on 
Facebook, for instance. 

1027
01:03:20,000 --> 01:03:21,880
I'm the only barreled old 
learner on Facebook. 

1028
01:03:22,480 --> 01:03:25,680
Send me a personal message and 
I'll be happy to talk to you 

1029
01:03:25,680 --> 01:03:28,560
just like I, I'll talk to 
individuals just like I talked 

1030
01:03:28,560 --> 01:03:30,800
with, with you fine gentleman in
a podcast. 

1031
01:03:30,800 --> 01:03:34,600
And, and, and I, I like having 
the opportunity to simply talk 

1032
01:03:34,600 --> 01:03:38,160
with people about, you know, 
about Tanakh and, and things 

1033
01:03:38,160 --> 01:03:40,280
like that. 
If I can take the opportunity, 

1034
01:03:41,160 --> 01:03:43,080
everybody may be puzzled by this
shirt. 

1035
01:03:44,520 --> 01:03:48,240
Check out Monty Python's Life of
Brian and you will understand 

1036
01:03:48,240 --> 01:03:52,200
the joke. 
I love it all. 

1037
01:03:52,200 --> 01:03:53,040
Right. 
Thank you so much. 

1038
01:03:53,240 --> 01:03:57,400
Be safe and you know all all 
good things and hopefully are 

1039
01:03:57,440 --> 01:03:58,760
you do. 
By the way, before we go, do you

1040
01:03:58,760 --> 01:04:01,160
have any future projects in the 
works? 

1041
01:04:04,000 --> 01:04:08,440
Well, fortunately this book came
out just before the war, which 

1042
01:04:10,080 --> 01:04:11,760
sort of paralyzed me in various 
ways. 

1043
01:04:12,320 --> 01:04:14,720
And then all those everything I 
was working on sort of gotten as

1044
01:04:14,720 --> 01:04:18,920
well. 
And I'm soon I next week I'm 

1045
01:04:18,920 --> 01:04:22,840
giving a lecture I'm working on 
about how different Jewish 

1046
01:04:22,840 --> 01:04:26,000
philosophers have related to the
question of the size of the 

1047
01:04:26,000 --> 01:04:32,400
universe and it's importance for
it's an importance for theology.

1048
01:04:33,040 --> 01:04:42,080
I'm also working on, I like, I'm
working on, on a lecture for the

1049
01:04:42,920 --> 01:04:48,440
World Congress of Jewish Studies
this summer, something on, on 

1050
01:04:48,440 --> 01:04:50,840
Misha Hochman. 
Maybe I'll publish these things.

1051
01:04:51,240 --> 01:04:57,840
I've sort of, to tell you the 
truth, since the work I've been 

1052
01:04:59,080 --> 01:05:04,360
spending so much time, I'm 
arguing with anti semites on 

1053
01:05:04,600 --> 01:05:08,920
social media and going to 
funerals and getting over going 

1054
01:05:08,920 --> 01:05:12,760
to funerals and all kinds of 
things that that I don't know, I

1055
01:05:12,760 --> 01:05:16,080
have to, I have to get my act 
together in in order hopefully 

1056
01:05:16,080 --> 01:05:19,160
to write something serious 
again. 

1057
01:05:19,160 --> 01:05:20,800
A. 
Hard time, very hard time. 

1058
01:05:20,840 --> 01:05:22,880
And we're our hearts are with 
you. 

1059
01:05:22,920 --> 01:05:25,200
And and we, you're always, 
you're gonna, you know, whenever

1060
01:05:25,200 --> 01:05:26,960
you come out with the next 
project, you're always welcome 

1061
01:05:26,960 --> 01:05:29,080
to come back on the podcast. 
It's an absolute pleasure. 

1062
01:05:29,480 --> 01:05:33,000
And hopefully we'll be in touch.
Thank you very much. 

1063
01:05:33,200 --> 01:05:34,040
All right, take care.