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Welcome to Judaism demystified 
the podcast for the perplexed. 

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We are joined by dr. 
Jacob Holland. 

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Dr. Holland is McFarland 
professor of philosophy and 

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Meridius at the University of 
Tulsa where he taught from 1988 

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to 2020. 
He published five books and 

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roughly 60 articles in review, 
essays on the thought of Plato 

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Aristotle. 
Xena van Kierkegaard, the talmud

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the Holocaust, ideological 
tyranny, and other subjects, a 

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past winner of the University of
Tulsa outstanding teacher award 

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and the College of Arts and 
Sciences excellence. 

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In teaching award, he has 
received grants from the 

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National Endowment, for the 
Humanities, the loot, our 

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foundation, the ear heart 
foundation, and the Koch 

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foundation and has lectured in 
Israel. 

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France, England, Romania, 
Brazil, Denmark, and Norway and 

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at universities around The 
United States, his most recent 

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book is glaucon's fate history, 
myth and character in Plato's 

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Republic, Paul dry books. 2018 
without further Ado, Professor 

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Holland. 
Thank you for joining the 

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Judaism demystified podcast. 
Can you tell us a little bit 

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about how you got into writing 
your book, Plato and the talmud 

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and also a little bit about 
yourself. 

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Yeah, sure. 
First I'd like to say that I'm 

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really glad to be on this 
podcast. 

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I think this is going to be a 
really fun and interesting 

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discussion. 
So I might scholarly background 

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was in Plata, and before I wrote
this book on played on the 

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talmud, I had written three 
other books, all having to do 

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with Plato. 
One was on Plato's Republic, 

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comparing. 
It sort of to the Odyssey and 

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presenting as a kind of Of 
Odyssey of philosophy. 

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Another was on a sequence of 
dialogues, and Plato, the 

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theaetetus office and Statesman,
where Socrates undergoes at the 

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same time as his public trial. 
When he's being tried by the 

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Athenians for impiety and 
corrupting the young, he 

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undergoes a kind of 
philosophical trial. 

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That's conducted by a stranger, 
a philosophical stranger from a 

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place called Delia. 
And then I wrote a book on 

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Kierkegaard and Socrates because
later philosophers Love Socrates

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and they all have their own 
version of Socrates and 

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Kierkegaard considered himself a
kind of Christian Socrates. 

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So I had already sort of dealt 
with comparing sort of Christian

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Perspective with a Socratic 
perspective and seeing what that

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generated. 
And I realized it's actually 

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very interesting to being 
different Traditions into 

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connection with each other 
because you can find 

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similarities, you can find 
differences and fundamental 

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questions. 
I think become illuminated that 

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way. 
So then, I I belonged to a 

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conservative congregation in 
Tulsa, Oklahoma, and around 

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1998, our Rabbi said, hey, we're
going to begin tellman studies 

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and I hadn't started the talmud 
before. 

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I start reading the talmud, I 
think, we begin with some stuff 

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in Bottle, Mitzi, and then we 
turn to time neat. 

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And then we did some stuff from 
Sun Heatran. 

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And I thought this stuff is 
really familiar because if your 

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listeners have red Play-Doh, 
they know that we have these 

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things called do, Logs, which 
are really philosophical. 

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Dramas. 
And in these philosophical 

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dramas, most often the character
of Socrates appears Socrates, 

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was the teacher of Plato. 
And there are discussions and 

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debates, some of them grow a 
little bit rancorous 

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occasionally, but most of the 
time, they're not about 

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fundamental issues, fundamental 
issues like how to live. 

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What is Justice, what is piety, 
and so forth. 

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And the dialogues often do not 
Reach resolution. 

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So they'll discuss a topic. 
There's a wonderful dialogue 

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called the lakis where the 
question is, what is encouraged?

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And Socrates is talking to a 
couple of generals who as you 

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might guess or a little bit 
embarrassed that they can't give

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an account of Courage, and the 
dialogue seems to end as many 

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dialogues do with an admission 
of ignorance. 

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God, I guess we really don't 
know what courage is, we're 

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going to have to keep talking 
about this. 

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Now that reminded me of the 
talmud or rather, the talmud 

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reminded me Of those dialogues 
because what you get is a kind 

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of colloquial, a discussion, a 
conversation between, you know, 

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hundreds of review, look over 
the whole town, but which by the

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way, I'm not an expert in the 
hotel, and I certainly haven't 

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read the whole town. 
But, but you have hundreds of, 

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rabbis debating And discussing 
all kinds of issues and they 

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move. 
And by the way, this is also 

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characteristic of the platonic 
dialogues from the most sort of 

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immediate practical questions, 
right? 

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To the most abstract. 
And kind of Eternal questions. 

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The platonic dialogues do that, 
too. 

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Because they all sort of start 
out on a very basic level, with 

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a practical concern. 
And then philosophy grows out of

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the questions that are presented
to you in practice, right? 

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So I mean, you know, in the 
talmud, it might be a case where

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your neighbors tomatoes are 
leaning over onto your land, and

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can you pick them and so forth. 
And then this kind of you can, 

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you can Devon a diamonds, you 
can turn on a dime into some 

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kind of metaphysical discussion 
about about the almighty and so 

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forth. 
So having noticed this, I 

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mentioned it to some people, 
Jacob new, stir, the sort of 

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great tell the scholar was 
visiting and I said, gosh, 

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there's this similarity says, 
oh, you should write a book on 

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it right now. 
I thought. 

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Wow that's that's a bridge too 
far. 

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And then we had read by her 
being Greenberg and and he told 

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me the same thing and I thought 
Thought well, why not? 

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And once I got into it, I began 
to rethink. 

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What I had read in Leo, Strauss.
Okay. 

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So of course, Leo Strauss, The 
Great German Jew, who came to 

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the United States in the 30s and
single-handedly. 

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I would say, produced the 
discipline of political theory 

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in the United States by bringing
a method of reading text very 

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closely and trying to And, you 
know, the author's perspective 

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in the most charitable and 
generous way Strauss argued that

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that the philosophical tradition
and the religious tradition and 

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in particular Judaism are 
radically incompatible, right? 

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He says, look, they're 
incompatible in their 

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conceptions of wisdom and how to
achieve it, right? 

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So the Beginning he says, of 
wisdom for. 

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The Jew is fear of the Lord and 
love of God. 

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And the beginning for philosophy
is love of the Good Love Of 

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Truth. 
The objects of wisdom are 

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different too because in Greek 
philosophy, the Greeks are very 

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interested in distinguishing 
between what they call na. 

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Ma slaw sort of conventional law
that you might find custom 

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Unwritten custom written law in 
particular City and Nature, 

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right in nature is not simply 
scientific nature, but a kind of

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that the sort of natural order 
of the universe and, and Strauss

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points out that they have at the
beginning of philosophy, really 

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is Wonder. 
And the began. 

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And and and and it pursues a 
kind of autonomous understanding

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that human beings can come to 
the truth, through their own 

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rational reflection. 
Whereas whereas in Judaism, the 

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emphasis is on obedience, and 
humility Revelation. 

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Exactly. 
And it's so, you know what? 

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I realized and I'll stop here 
and see if you have any thoughts

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about what I've said so far is 
that the picture changes if you 

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consider not Not the Bible and 
Greek philosophy. 

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And here I should say the way 
Strauss terms. 

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It is Athens and Jerusalem, 
right? 

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That the detention between 
Athens and Jerusalem which 

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incidentally, he saw as a kind 
of spring, a kind of energizing 

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tension that's at the heart of 
Western civilization and I think

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that's right. 
The picture changes if you don't

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think of Athens and Jerusalem 
bible and Greek philosophy in 

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general. 
But rather Plato and the talmud 

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okay, so as I started to think 
about this, I realized here are 

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here are some connections, this 
is this can be sort of a long 

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list but let me let me mention 
some of them, both of these 

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texts, focus on questions and 
not on answers. 

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They both are full of sort of 
paradoxes and inconsistencies, 

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right and and and contradictions
and that's all from the 

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beginning point is, you know, in
talmudic discussion as animal. 

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Well, there seems to be a 
contradiction here. 

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Let's see if we can resolve this
both of them end up in a kind of

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open-ended way, very often. 
These Sue goat, you know, they 

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don't they don't these to move. 
Ian's don't come to a definitive

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answer, right? 
And and they present a range of 

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opinions. 
So for example, in the dialogue 

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you might have Socrates talking 
with the beginning of the 

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Republic through simitis who 
argues that, you know, Justice 

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is simply the interest of the 
stronger, you know. 

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And Socrates has a much for 
Moral Moral perspective and then

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maybe someone else has another 
perspective and it's the reader 

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who has to sort this out and 
decide where he or she is going 

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to stand, right? 
Which of these perspectives are 

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you To embrace another thing I 
have to say is that, you know, 

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the dialogues, there's been some
argument and I don't take a 

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stance on this that the platonic
dialogues. 

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Which, as I said earlier, our 
philosophical dramas were 

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actually performed. 
Okay? 

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And I mentioned that because 
they invite reading in a group, 

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right? 
I mean you do when you read a 

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dialogue, the best way to do it 
is to sit and talk with other 

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people and kind of discuss these
perspectives and obviously 

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talmud is. 
Meant to be studied in a group. 

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So going Beyond this now. 
So those are kind of formal 

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similarities but let's look at 
sort of the content its stake in

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the talmud ultimately. 
Well one of the fundamental 

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issues is how we should live how
to live. 

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And for example, what it means 
to live according to the law of 

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God, right? 
When you apply that to the 

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particulars of your existence, 
same thing is true in the 

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platonic dialogues. 
The question of the best life. 

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If the good life that just life 
is front and center and and and 

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both the talmud and the 
dialogues are focused on law. 

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Now, law has a different meaning
in the Greek context because 

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it's not revealed law and 
morality, right? 

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And the point of these texts is 
always to unite study in action 

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intellectual and moral virtue. 
It's not simply to be a scholar.

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It's not simply to have the best
understanding of the Torah, 

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right? 
You have to live Torah, it has 

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to translate has to translate 
into like it has to be. 

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Let me put it this way. 
One of the issues is how do you 

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internalize it? 
How do you take it into your 

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soul and how does it become an 
animating principle of your 

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life? 
Right? 

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And so it's also the case with 
Socrates, you know, His, the 

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active and contemplative lives 
are inseparable. 

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Socrates so Plato had this this 
Doctrine if you will of the 

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idea. 
So what are the ideas? 

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The ideas are the Eternal being 
and truth of a thing, right? 

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So the idea of justice is kind 
of the sort of pure concept of 

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justice. 
That one could either live up to

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or fail to live up to, and 
Socrates is constantly trying to

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live up to the ideas and that 
requires two things. 

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Thanks, right. 
It requires trying to 

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intellectually cognize the ideas
to understand them to know them.

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Now, this is unfortunately, a 
process that one can never be 

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certain about, right? 
So Socrates is constantly 

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inquiring and but he's but he 
always has humility. 

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He's always ready to say. 
Here's here's the way I look at 

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this, but if someone else has a 
better idea, I'm ready to learn 

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from you. 
So the, there is doubt, On the 

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way up to the idea, right? 
You know, and we might compare 

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that to have we understood Torah
correctly, right? 

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Have we understood what this 
means? 

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What this book means and then 
it's not just that you got to 

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bring it down into your life. 
And that of course, is a very 

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interesting problem because the 
way the Greeks would frame that 

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is to bring what, you know, into
your life requires practical 

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wisdom. 
Requires sound judgment. 

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There's no in any given 
circumstance in life. 

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There's no, there's no cheating.
There's no app that says like 

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the Justice app, you know, 
pushes this do this or do that, 

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right? 
You gotta have that and the 

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problem is, and I think this is 
the end of the talmud 

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understands this, that cannot be
systematically, formulated right

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yet. 
There's no, there's no sort of 

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guide book, write as much as As 
as the greatest Minds in the 

227
00:14:07,408 --> 00:14:09,500
world have thought about me. 
There's no guide book. 

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That tells you what you need to 
do right now. 

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00:14:12,800 --> 00:14:17,700
In this particular context in 
this situation rather there is a

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00:14:17,700 --> 00:14:25,200
kind of ethos, right? 
A kind of well Eliezer berkovitz

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00:14:25,200 --> 00:14:30,500
calls it, the halacha conscience
and another Rabbi named Max 

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00:14:30,500 --> 00:14:32,900
kedusha know. 
I talk about in the book talks 

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00:14:32,900 --> 00:14:37,500
about the value concepts of 
rabbinic This is sort of living 

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00:14:37,500 --> 00:14:41,600
Torah, but you can't, you can't 
say, right? 

235
00:14:41,600 --> 00:14:48,100
You can't formulate in some kind
of systematic way the knowledge 

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00:14:48,300 --> 00:14:53,000
that is involved in, living up 
to Torah, living up to the law, 

237
00:14:53,300 --> 00:14:56,600
but you can show it and you can 
show it the medically. 

238
00:14:56,600 --> 00:14:59,600
You can show it through. 
My god of narrative, you can 

239
00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:04,100
show it in the platonic 
dialogues through these dramas 

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00:15:04,200 --> 00:15:07,400
about Socrates. 
And let's Take Socrates, we see 

241
00:15:07,400 --> 00:15:10,200
him speaking. 
We see him acting, we see him 

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00:15:11,300 --> 00:15:16,500
defying, the command of the 
Athenians, in the case, brought 

243
00:15:16,500 --> 00:15:19,800
against him to stop. 
Philosophizing, we see him in 

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jail, in a dialogue, called The 
Credo. 

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00:15:22,200 --> 00:15:24,700
Refusing to escape from jail. 
Love that one? 

246
00:15:25,200 --> 00:15:26,600
Yeah. 
One of my favorite ones. 

247
00:15:27,300 --> 00:15:30,000
Yeah. 
And, and so, you know, this 

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itself provokes reflection why 
why won't you know, Socrates 

249
00:15:34,200 --> 00:15:37,700
believes that he was Unjustly 
convicted, but he's not going to

250
00:15:37,800 --> 00:15:40,700
escape from jail and he has 
Arguments for because we have to

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00:15:40,700 --> 00:15:43,300
obey the law, correct. 
So this is a sort of interesting

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00:15:43,300 --> 00:15:47,100
paralyzed bigger than his life. 
Why is bigger than his life? 

253
00:15:47,100 --> 00:15:50,900
Exactly. 
So what I realized is that in 

254
00:15:50,900 --> 00:15:53,200
the narrative, I got about the 
sages. 

255
00:15:53,200 --> 00:15:56,400
And by the way, the reason I 
chose tiny 3 is it's loaded with

256
00:15:56,400 --> 00:15:58,600
great stories. 
Yeah. 

257
00:15:59,400 --> 00:16:03,500
Lots of different stages. 
Different sages who are I'm 

258
00:16:03,500 --> 00:16:06,200
approaching the same matters 
often in, you know, sort of 

259
00:16:06,200 --> 00:16:15,100
diametrically opposed to waist 
is that these stories show what 

260
00:16:15,100 --> 00:16:19,600
it, what it means, not just to 
think like a sage, right? 

261
00:16:19,600 --> 00:16:23,100
Which we get was a lockpick 
disputation and so forth, but 

262
00:16:23,100 --> 00:16:26,300
what it means to be a sage what 
it means to live like a stage. 

263
00:16:27,600 --> 00:16:31,800
Now, here's another thought, 
going even deeper I realized 

264
00:16:32,400 --> 00:16:38,200
that the dialogues and the 
talmud are ultimately responses 

265
00:16:38,200 --> 00:16:41,000
to something like civilizational
Crisis, okay? 

266
00:16:42,700 --> 00:16:45,300
So let's just take the platonic 
dialogues. 

267
00:16:45,300 --> 00:16:49,500
Here's Plato. 
He's born, in the round, 428 BCE

268
00:16:49,900 --> 00:16:52,700
and the near the beginning of 
the Peloponnesian War. 

269
00:16:53,700 --> 00:16:56,100
The war goes on. 
It's a war between Athens and 

270
00:16:56,100 --> 00:17:00,800
her allies and Sparta, they're 
called the peloponnesians. 04 

271
00:17:00,800 --> 00:17:03,200
BC. 
The Spartans are finally 

272
00:17:03,200 --> 00:17:08,000
Victorious and they set up a 
puppet government in Athens. 

273
00:17:08,099 --> 00:17:11,200
And unfortunately, by the way, 
run by some of Plato's 

274
00:17:11,200 --> 00:17:15,000
relatives, that's a whole 
interesting story because Plato 

275
00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:18,300
was invited to join the regime. 
And then he said, you know, I 

276
00:17:18,300 --> 00:17:20,599
thought they were going to 
restore the city to Justice and 

277
00:17:20,599 --> 00:17:23,099
so forth. 
And incidentally, his view was 

278
00:17:23,099 --> 00:17:27,599
that the Athenian democracy, 
which was a direct democracy and

279
00:17:27,599 --> 00:17:32,600
kind of he regarded that She was
having made tremendous mistakes 

280
00:17:33,100 --> 00:17:36,600
as having been that greedy for 
wealth and power, and the people

281
00:17:36,600 --> 00:17:40,400
were like, yes, let's do crazy. 
Things like send our whole maybe

282
00:17:40,400 --> 00:17:43,000
over to Sicily and Conquer. 
These cities and will do all 

283
00:17:43,000 --> 00:17:45,600
this. 
And they failed miserably and 

284
00:17:45,600 --> 00:17:48,100
Plato had a kind of aristocratic
attitude and he thought. 

285
00:17:48,100 --> 00:17:51,600
Now we got to have, you know, an
aristocratic regime and restore 

286
00:17:51,600 --> 00:17:54,900
it to the city, to its health. 
And then he realizes, he writes 

287
00:17:54,900 --> 00:17:57,100
in the famous document, called 
the seventh letter. 

288
00:17:57,300 --> 00:18:01,300
Then I realized that the old 
regime Was it was a thing of 

289
00:18:01,300 --> 00:18:02,900
gold compared to this one, 
right? 

290
00:18:02,900 --> 00:18:05,400
And he withdrew those guys 
prosecuted. 

291
00:18:05,400 --> 00:18:08,500
Those guys persecuted Socrates, 
they forbid him to philosophize.

292
00:18:08,500 --> 00:18:12,700
And, and, and then ultimately, 
when they were overthrown, this 

293
00:18:12,700 --> 00:18:17,100
group of oligarchs known as the 
thirty tyrants, Socrates was 

294
00:18:17,300 --> 00:18:21,800
prosecuted by the restored, 
democracy for various reasons 

295
00:18:21,800 --> 00:18:25,300
that I won't go into. 
But and then so Plato's teacher 

296
00:18:25,300 --> 00:18:28,000
is then put to death. 
And by the way, all the students

297
00:18:28,000 --> 00:18:34,200
applied are regarded him as the 
most Just the most truthful, the

298
00:18:34,200 --> 00:18:39,500
most brilliant man you know they
had ever met xenophon another 

299
00:18:39,500 --> 00:18:44,100
student of Socrates talks about 
him this way and so you know if 

300
00:18:44,100 --> 00:18:47,800
I had been played up I thought 
about this I would probably just

301
00:18:47,800 --> 00:18:52,400
you know become a complete cynic
and nihilist and you know 

302
00:18:52,400 --> 00:18:55,100
Retreat and just you but his 
response is I'm going to write 

303
00:18:55,100 --> 00:18:58,800
35 dialogues, I'm going to write
35 Alex and those diamonds are 

304
00:18:58,808 --> 00:19:01,700
going to be focused on sock. 
Ortiz in the life of Socrates, 

305
00:19:02,000 --> 00:19:03,700
they're going to be focused on 
the past. 

306
00:19:03,800 --> 00:19:07,700
So he's writing now in the 4th 
Century from Lankenau, Socrates 

307
00:19:07,700 --> 00:19:10,700
executed 399 and then Plato 
writes for the next thirty four 

308
00:19:10,700 --> 00:19:13,200
years. 
And they're going to, they're 

309
00:19:13,200 --> 00:19:19,100
going to sort of revive this 
world before it collapsed before

310
00:19:19,100 --> 00:19:22,100
the city of Athens lost its 
autonomy before. 

311
00:19:22,100 --> 00:19:25,400
The great Socrates was killed 
before the end of everything. 

312
00:19:25,400 --> 00:19:29,000
Great, the the fifth century had
aeschylus and Sophocles and 

313
00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:32,000
euripides and Themistocles in 
thucydides and Pericles. 

314
00:19:32,000 --> 00:19:34,300
And, you know, and Socrates and 
so forth. 

315
00:19:35,000 --> 00:19:37,700
That was all swept away. 
That was the kind of golden age 

316
00:19:37,700 --> 00:19:40,100
Swept Away. 
So what's he doing? 

317
00:19:41,700 --> 00:19:44,000
He wants us to internalize the 
past. 

318
00:19:44,000 --> 00:19:51,300
He wants us to, to, to well, you
know what he does, is he 

319
00:19:51,300 --> 00:19:55,600
produces a curriculum, a new 
curriculum for a broken age, 

320
00:19:56,000 --> 00:20:00,100
right? 
And and sort of single-handedly,

321
00:20:00,700 --> 00:20:03,600
you know, I don't know if there 
was success in Athens. 

322
00:20:03,600 --> 00:20:07,100
Exactly, although Plato did 
teach Aristotle and then 

323
00:20:07,100 --> 00:20:09,900
Aristotle, by the way, had a 
very famous His student, who did

324
00:20:09,900 --> 00:20:12,200
not become a philosopher, that 
was Alexander the Great. 

325
00:20:12,200 --> 00:20:14,800
So, you know, things kind of 
went awry a little bit there but

326
00:20:16,600 --> 00:20:23,800
but to to produce a a curriculum
in the examined life, that would

327
00:20:23,900 --> 00:20:26,700
restore some kind of Health to 
the city of Athens. 

328
00:20:27,800 --> 00:20:29,700
Talmud is even greater success, 
right? 

329
00:20:29,700 --> 00:20:32,900
So that's the destruction of the
second temple. 

330
00:20:33,400 --> 00:20:35,500
Yeah no locus of contact with 
God. 

331
00:20:36,300 --> 00:20:40,900
No Priest, No sacrifice, no 
profits, no profits. 

332
00:20:40,900 --> 00:20:44,900
What are you gonna do? 
And rabbinic Judaism is reborn 

333
00:20:44,900 --> 00:20:47,500
and it is reborn as we know, 
right? 

334
00:20:47,500 --> 00:20:53,700
We you know, we get the mishnah,
we get the gemara and and those 

335
00:20:53,700 --> 00:20:56,900
tax I mean the Babylonian talmud
2.5 million words right? 

336
00:20:56,900 --> 00:20:59,600
That Jerusalem talmud what is it
a million words something like 

337
00:20:59,600 --> 00:21:02,500
this? 
These I contend are also 

338
00:21:02,500 --> 00:21:04,800
curricula. 
To form. 

339
00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:09,100
These are formative texts that 
are trying to establish 

340
00:21:10,100 --> 00:21:14,900
attitudes and virtues in The 
Souls of their readers and to 

341
00:21:14,900 --> 00:21:18,800
orient them toward Health and 
Justice and goodness. 

342
00:21:20,300 --> 00:21:23,900
And you know to produce 
flourishing communities and so 

343
00:21:23,900 --> 00:21:26,200
forth. 
So, I think that there's, 

344
00:21:26,200 --> 00:21:30,900
there's a sense of, I mean, I've
always, you know, to me, The 

345
00:21:31,300 --> 00:21:34,400
rabbinic response to Judy like 
the rabbinic response to the 

346
00:21:34,408 --> 00:21:41,700
crisis of the second temple. 
He is the most evident proof of 

347
00:21:41,700 --> 00:21:45,600
the fecundity, the fruitfulness 
of the Jewish tradition, you 

348
00:21:45,600 --> 00:21:50,700
know, to, to be able to, to look
at a world and say, our world 

349
00:21:50,700 --> 00:21:54,900
has collapsed, it is fractured 
the things we depended on are 

350
00:21:54,900 --> 00:21:57,100
gone. 
Now, what are we going to do? 

351
00:21:58,400 --> 00:22:04,700
There's a guy named rosenstock, 
pussy, who is 20th century 

352
00:22:04,700 --> 00:22:08,900
intellectual and he said 
something like, A citizen is a 

353
00:22:08,900 --> 00:22:15,800
person who if the need arises 
can reinvent civilization, 

354
00:22:15,800 --> 00:22:17,700
right? 
Like that's the highest level 

355
00:22:18,100 --> 00:22:23,100
and I think Plato and the 
rabbi's engaged in that exactly,

356
00:22:23,100 --> 00:22:26,700
that kind of reinvention. 
So this is extremely 

357
00:22:26,700 --> 00:22:30,200
interesting. 
Now, Let me go a little further 

358
00:22:30,200 --> 00:22:33,100
here. 
The dialogues and the town woods

359
00:22:33,400 --> 00:22:38,700
and they and the talmud look to 
the past but they present new 

360
00:22:38,700 --> 00:22:41,900
models, new, a new kinds of 
Heroes running. 

361
00:22:41,900 --> 00:22:45,400
So you know, there's a track 
day, there's a little story in 

362
00:22:45,400 --> 00:22:52,900
the talmud where Joshua and 
maybe more than one story, who's

363
00:22:52,900 --> 00:22:56,100
the great military hero. 
Right is represented as kind of,

364
00:22:56,100 --> 00:22:58,700
you know, why you Shiva buffer, 
he's kind of turned into this, 

365
00:22:59,100 --> 00:23:05,000
this student of Torah. 
So we had our, you know, we had 

366
00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:08,500
our Joshua's, we had our great 
Patriarchs, we had these are, 

367
00:23:08,500 --> 00:23:11,200
these are, these are very 
successful people, you know, 

368
00:23:11,200 --> 00:23:12,500
Abraham. 
He's a warrior. 

369
00:23:12,500 --> 00:23:15,600
He knows how to make money. 
He's you know, he's got it. 

370
00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:19,000
All right. 
Now, the new hero is the rabbi 

371
00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:25,800
In the Greek tradition, who are 
the heroes, Achilles Warriors, 

372
00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:28,400
right? 
Here's he's the top Socrates in 

373
00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:34,300
the apology, which is the, which
is the dialogue of his trial. 

374
00:23:34,300 --> 00:23:37,900
Implicitly Compares himself. 
Not he explicitly Compares 

375
00:23:37,900 --> 00:23:40,200
himself to Achilles. 
He's a new Achilles. 

376
00:23:40,200 --> 00:23:44,000
What kind of warrior is, he is 
philosophical Warrior, right? 

377
00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:49,700
So that's very interesting. 
And then what I really realized 

378
00:23:49,700 --> 00:23:56,200
and this this has to Do now with
my study of Play-Doh is that 

379
00:23:56,500 --> 00:24:01,800
there is a sense to use 
strauss's terms in which Athens 

380
00:24:02,300 --> 00:24:04,200
can be filed at the heart of 
Jerusalem. 

381
00:24:04,300 --> 00:24:06,800
And Jerusalem can be found at 
the heart of Athens. 

382
00:24:06,800 --> 00:24:11,200
Now, what do I mean by that? 
The talmud and the platonic 

383
00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:16,300
dialogues Express a certain 
tension between rational inquiry

384
00:24:16,300 --> 00:24:20,000
and Faith, right? 
Or between what can be known 

385
00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:22,300
through rational discussion and 
so forth. 

386
00:24:22,300 --> 00:24:26,100
And, and these Mysteries that 
are sort of beyond the Ken of 

387
00:24:26,100 --> 00:24:28,300
those who are engaging in this 
rational inquiry. 

388
00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:32,100
There's a great book by Menachem
fish called rational rabbis. 

389
00:24:32,100 --> 00:24:34,800
And in fact, it's funny because 
as introductions like 40 pages 

390
00:24:34,800 --> 00:24:40,200
long, he's comparing the 
talmudic rabbis He's talking 

391
00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:43,000
about Karl Popper. 
Karl Popper was a logician i 

392
00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:46,700
philosopher of science, right? 
Who sort of developed this idea 

393
00:24:46,700 --> 00:24:50,700
of falsifiability poppers claim 
is that you can't you can't 

394
00:24:50,700 --> 00:24:55,300
prove a theory, like, let's say,
you know, you can't prove the 

395
00:24:55,300 --> 00:24:58,600
law of gravity, you can 
formulate the law of gravity and

396
00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:03,100
then you can conduct experiments
that would falsify your 

397
00:25:03,100 --> 00:25:04,300
understanding of the law of 
gravity. 

398
00:25:04,300 --> 00:25:07,000
So, for example, the law of 
gravity is indicates that, you 

399
00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:09,400
know, if I let go of this pain, 
it's going to fall, right? 

400
00:25:10,200 --> 00:25:12,800
Well, that did not falsify my 
little experiment. 

401
00:25:12,800 --> 00:25:14,800
If you're listening on the 
podcast, I dropped the pen and 

402
00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:17,700
it fell into my hand. 
So so far the law of gravity is 

403
00:25:17,700 --> 00:25:21,000
not been falsified. 
So popper, lays out a kind of 

404
00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:24,700
whole method of scientific 
inquiry and the not from fission

405
00:25:24,700 --> 00:25:27,800
is book on wrestlerette. 
My suggest that the rabbi's are 

406
00:25:27,800 --> 00:25:31,800
essentially sort of Pop herion 
Enquirer strike who sort of 

407
00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:35,400
formulate hypotheses and then 
they see if they can explain the

408
00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:37,800
evidence and then if they find 
evidence that falsifies that 

409
00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:42,700
they change the hypotheses So we
know that the that the talmudic 

410
00:25:42,700 --> 00:25:46,600
rabbis are irrational, what 
about Socrates that? 

411
00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:49,900
Here's something I take 
seriously and there is a school 

412
00:25:49,900 --> 00:25:52,500
of thought of certainly some 
Strauss Ian's that thinks it's 

413
00:25:52,500 --> 00:25:55,700
all ironic and so forth. 
But if you read the apology, 

414
00:25:56,400 --> 00:25:58,400
Socrates tells the following 
Story. 

415
00:25:59,300 --> 00:26:03,200
How did I begin philosophizing? 
Well, I had a friend and the 

416
00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:05,000
friend went to the Oracle of 
Delphi. 

417
00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:08,500
Now, what is an oracle of Oracle
is a location where the gods 

418
00:26:08,500 --> 00:26:12,300
speak, right? 
And it's a temple at usually, 

419
00:26:12,300 --> 00:26:14,700
right? 
And there are priestesses and 

420
00:26:14,700 --> 00:26:18,100
the case of delfi and they 
interpret certain signs and they

421
00:26:18,100 --> 00:26:22,900
tell you what the gods answer is
so so his friend Kyra fun goes 

422
00:26:22,900 --> 00:26:26,700
to the oracle and he asked the 
Oracle, is there any one wiser 

423
00:26:26,700 --> 00:26:31,500
than Socrates and the Oracle 
answers with the shortest 

424
00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:35,300
Revelation? 
I want to say in history and the

425
00:26:35,308 --> 00:26:39,400
answer is no. 
And here's what Socrates says, 

426
00:26:39,900 --> 00:26:43,700
he says this really puzzled me 
because I look into my soul and 

427
00:26:43,700 --> 00:26:49,900
I say, I'm not wise, right? 
But, and here's the faith part. 

428
00:26:50,700 --> 00:26:57,800
I know that the Oracle cannot 
have uttered a falsehood Here's 

429
00:26:57,800 --> 00:27:00,400
his principal, his principle is 
the gods. 

430
00:27:00,900 --> 00:27:02,600
Why can't they ever fall to fall
asleep? 

431
00:27:02,600 --> 00:27:04,500
Because I did. 
That would mean they're ignorant

432
00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:10,400
and the gods are not ignorant. 
Or they're liars and the gods 

433
00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:12,800
are not Liars. 
Now, let me pause here for a 

434
00:27:12,808 --> 00:27:18,700
second in the Greek tradition in
The Iliad, for example, in the 

435
00:27:18,700 --> 00:27:21,700
Odyssey, the gods lie, all the 
time, all the time. 

436
00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:25,400
They take a different shape, 
they're totally undependable. 

437
00:27:25,700 --> 00:27:29,500
They will lie for example to get
revenge on somebody. 

438
00:27:29,500 --> 00:27:34,500
They want to see you know, come 
to grief But you're Socrates. 

439
00:27:35,700 --> 00:27:38,400
And he has this notion. 
No, no they got. 

440
00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:43,400
It's not sanctioned for the gods
to other falsehoods, so I have 

441
00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:47,100
to take this seriously. 
Is there an argument? 

442
00:27:47,300 --> 00:27:52,600
No, He just asserts it. 
By the way, in other domains 

443
00:27:52,900 --> 00:27:54,500
goes against his general 
principles. 

444
00:27:54,500 --> 00:27:58,500
Not ask not not furthering, not 
furthering the idea. 

445
00:27:58,500 --> 00:27:59,900
Just kind of. 
Yeah, that's it. 

446
00:27:59,900 --> 00:28:00,700
Got to take it. 
Seriously. 

447
00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:04,300
Gotta take a serious. 
Find it anywhere in in Socrates 

448
00:28:04,300 --> 00:28:06,800
besides there. 
Yeah, exactly. 

449
00:28:06,900 --> 00:28:10,900
So there it is. 
And he says, so, that's so then 

450
00:28:10,900 --> 00:28:13,300
I thought, well, you know what 
I'm going to do and this is very

451
00:28:13,300 --> 00:28:15,700
interesting. 
I'm gonna go find someone who's 

452
00:28:15,700 --> 00:28:19,100
wiser than me, and I'm going to 
bring him back to the Oracle and

453
00:28:19,100 --> 00:28:22,900
I'm going to say, you told me 
that I was the wisest but this 

454
00:28:22,900 --> 00:28:26,800
guy's wiser. 
Now, incidentally, some people 

455
00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:28,800
have said, this shows, he's here
religious, right? 

456
00:28:28,800 --> 00:28:32,600
Because he wants to show that 
the gods have lied or they're 

457
00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:36,000
ignorant on. 
The contrary Socrates was to 

458
00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:40,500
engage in a Socratic 
conversation with the gods, this

459
00:28:40,500 --> 00:28:41,600
is another connection with 
Talbot. 

460
00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:44,400
Incidentally, being one of the 
great things about town but are 

461
00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:48,700
the interactions between God's 
God in human beings, it's just 

462
00:28:48,700 --> 00:28:50,800
amazing. 
And by the way, God has a sense 

463
00:28:50,800 --> 00:28:54,500
of humor which is fantastic but 
really it's absolutely 

464
00:28:54,500 --> 00:28:58,000
fantastic. 
So, you know, you know, and, and

465
00:28:58,000 --> 00:29:02,600
it's, it's really lovely. 
And and in fact, we see, for 

466
00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:05,700
example, in the oven of off nice
story which I might talk about 

467
00:29:05,700 --> 00:29:10,800
later. 
There's a point at which a rabbi

468
00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:13,000
stands up to God. 
And says, by the way, you don't 

469
00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:15,800
really have a role in this 
conversation, right? 

470
00:29:16,100 --> 00:29:20,200
You have spoken but but you 
know, let us sort this out, 

471
00:29:20,300 --> 00:29:22,200
right? 
Which is really you might say 

472
00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:27,400
almost, it's impertinent, you 
know, So, so that's one of the 

473
00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:32,000
cool things so. 
So then I realized like, okay, 

474
00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:36,700
If this is correct, then the 
greatest philosopher like 

475
00:29:36,800 --> 00:29:40,500
Socrates is regarded as one of 
if not the greatest philosophers

476
00:29:40,500 --> 00:29:44,300
in history, right? 
Certainly the first philosopher 

477
00:29:44,300 --> 00:29:48,000
as as Cicero rights to bring 
philosophy down from the 

478
00:29:48,008 --> 00:29:50,700
heavens, because before 
Socrates, by the way, they have 

479
00:29:50,700 --> 00:29:52,500
worked with called pre-socratic 
philosophers, and their 

480
00:29:52,500 --> 00:29:55,200
questions were very like, where 
did everything come from? 

481
00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:57,900
That it come from water, that it
come from fire, what are things 

482
00:29:57,900 --> 00:30:00,800
made of a sort of physical 
physicist question. 

483
00:30:00,800 --> 00:30:04,600
Socrates brought philosophy down
started inquiring about good and

484
00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:08,400
bad and just and unjust and sofa
brought it into the cities of 

485
00:30:08,700 --> 00:30:13,700
Menace as Cicero says, so here's
this original philosopher. 

486
00:30:14,900 --> 00:30:16,600
And it is. 
Philosophizing, is rooted in 

487
00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:19,000
faith? 
I forgot to finish the story. 

488
00:30:19,100 --> 00:30:21,300
He goes around and he says he's 
talking to people. 

489
00:30:21,300 --> 00:30:24,500
He realizes these guys don't 
know what they're talking about,

490
00:30:25,100 --> 00:30:30,200
because they think they're wise,
but they're not. so I am wiser 

491
00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:35,300
just by this little bit because 
I know I'm not wise But it's 

492
00:30:35,300 --> 00:30:39,100
that Oracle at Delphi sets him 
off on his life which is really,

493
00:30:39,100 --> 00:30:42,100
you could sum it up as an 
attempt to understand what is 

494
00:30:42,100 --> 00:30:45,000
wisdom and who is Socrates? 
Who am I? 

495
00:30:45,100 --> 00:30:46,300
And what does it mean to be 
wise? 

496
00:30:46,300 --> 00:30:50,400
And so, and so he said, yeah, go
ahead. 

497
00:30:50,900 --> 00:30:53,800
I'm just going to say that the 
Oracle of Delphi. 

498
00:30:53,800 --> 00:30:56,800
I remember my first dialogue 
that I read from Plato's apology

499
00:30:56,800 --> 00:30:59,900
my Rabbi Rabbi my roof. 
I said, I wanted to, I want to 

500
00:30:59,900 --> 00:31:01,000
learn play. 
Don't he's like if you wanna 

501
00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:02,300
learn Petty, gotta start with 
apology. 

502
00:31:02,500 --> 00:31:04,500
It's sort of an intro as you as 
you. 

503
00:31:04,600 --> 00:31:07,500
You just mentioned, right? 
It's really sets up all the rest

504
00:31:07,500 --> 00:31:09,000
of the dialogues. 
In terms of, you know, is 

505
00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:11,100
motivation and what is wisdom 
and all that. 

506
00:31:11,300 --> 00:31:13,800
And I remember, I got up to the 
delphic Oracle and I was 

507
00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:17,400
completely shocked. 
I was totally, I was like, I was

508
00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:21,700
telling what like, huh, it just 
it didn't it kind of came out of

509
00:31:21,700 --> 00:31:23,700
nowhere and especially for a new
reader. 

510
00:31:23,700 --> 00:31:28,300
So you bringing that in, is it 
just brought me back to when I 

511
00:31:28,308 --> 00:31:32,800
first read it and how surprised 
I was at that and I thought it 

512
00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:35,200
was maybe sarcastic. 
I thought maybe Like, you know, 

513
00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:37,600
I didn't know what to do with it
at the time, it was sort of 

514
00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:39,500
like, whoa, you know what I 
mean? 

515
00:31:39,500 --> 00:31:44,000
Like, how did we get to this 
spiritual event, right? 

516
00:31:44,800 --> 00:31:47,300
With Socrates the philosopher, 
and you just brought that up. 

517
00:31:47,300 --> 00:31:51,200
So, I just the whole thing, just
kind of when we played it, in my

518
00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:54,100
mind, when you were talking 
about that and you were 

519
00:31:54,100 --> 00:31:57,500
mentioning. 
So, you're you're using that to 

520
00:31:57,500 --> 00:32:02,000
show that there's there is 
There's a spiritual element 

521
00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:06,500
right there is a Jerusalem 
element, right? 

522
00:32:06,500 --> 00:32:11,400
That is really like the the, the
Catalyst and the force behind 

523
00:32:11,500 --> 00:32:15,500
everything that Socrates 
Advanced. 

524
00:32:16,300 --> 00:32:19,400
Yeah. 
You know I really like your 

525
00:32:21,100 --> 00:32:23,900
Telling me that story about 
reading the apology Ben tzion 

526
00:32:23,900 --> 00:32:28,000
because, you know, it's funny. 
I mean, I thought the apology a 

527
00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:32,600
million times and and students 
don't really notice that, right?

528
00:32:32,600 --> 00:32:37,400
Well, for a good, five minutes, 
I was like wait, which is, which

529
00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:40,400
is absolutely great because, you
know, so I mean here I am, I'm 

530
00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:42,300
sort of saturating Greek 
philosophy every tell him. 

531
00:32:42,300 --> 00:32:43,600
And I'm like, what's going on 
here? 

532
00:32:43,600 --> 00:32:45,200
Right? 
And then your saturated, 

533
00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:46,700
obviously, you know, a lot more 
time with it. 

534
00:32:46,700 --> 00:32:49,300
I know I'm sure and, you know, 
you come from the religious 

535
00:32:49,300 --> 00:32:50,800
background you recently. 
What's going on here? 

536
00:32:52,700 --> 00:32:54,600
This is, this is really 
interesting, you know, let me 

537
00:32:54,600 --> 00:32:56,100
say a little bit more about this
too. 

538
00:32:56,800 --> 00:33:00,900
It's not the only place. 
So Socrates was actually put on 

539
00:33:00,900 --> 00:33:05,600
trial in part because he had he 
kept talking about this what he 

540
00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:08,300
called I'm audience. 
Oh, a diamond that sometimes 

541
00:33:08,300 --> 00:33:12,000
it's translated in English demon
but that gives a kind of - 

542
00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:13,300
right. 
Because we know that demons, you

543
00:33:13,300 --> 00:33:17,700
know, there's, you know, haunted
and so forth, but really it's a 

544
00:33:17,700 --> 00:33:20,800
word that means like a sort of 
intermediate. 

545
00:33:20,900 --> 00:33:23,600
It deity. 
A kind of, let's say, a Lesser 

546
00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:26,100
God, that communicates to human 
beings. 

547
00:33:26,100 --> 00:33:30,400
But it's it's a Divine voice and
Socrates talks about his Divine 

548
00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:31,700
voice. 
In fact, he talks about in the 

549
00:33:31,700 --> 00:33:36,600
apology. 
He says, you know, well, once 

550
00:33:36,600 --> 00:33:39,600
he's convicted and sentenced to 
death, he says, actually this 

551
00:33:39,600 --> 00:33:44,700
wasn't so bad because my died 
money on my little Divine voice 

552
00:33:45,100 --> 00:33:47,400
hasn't spoken to me at this 
time. 

553
00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:50,800
And and because usually a talks 
to me if something's going 

554
00:33:51,100 --> 00:33:54,000
Right? 
And it didn't also there's a 

555
00:33:54,008 --> 00:33:56,700
dialect called the theaetetus 
for Socrates is talking to young

556
00:33:56,700 --> 00:34:01,900
men named the Adidas and 
Socrates explains his unusual 

557
00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:05,200
activity of like, what, what do 
I do as a philosopher? 

558
00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:08,500
He Compares himself as to a 
midwife of souls. 

559
00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:12,500
I talk to people and I help them
to give birth to some 

560
00:34:12,500 --> 00:34:15,000
understanding, right? 
I sort of tease that out of 

561
00:34:15,007 --> 00:34:16,800
them. 
They you know, young people are 

562
00:34:16,800 --> 00:34:19,300
pregnant with ideas but they 
don't know how to articulate 

563
00:34:19,300 --> 00:34:21,600
them and I help them too. 
Do that. 

564
00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:25,600
And he says the God has 
commanded me to do that right 

565
00:34:26,000 --> 00:34:28,300
now. 
Again, there's so many places in

566
00:34:28,308 --> 00:34:31,800
the dialogues where we hear this
kind of stuff that I don't, it 

567
00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:34,400
just, it would be foolish, 
frankly. 

568
00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:37,600
To rule them out, you know, one 
has to begin by taking them 

569
00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:39,600
seriously. 
And I began that way and never 

570
00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:41,300
end it right. 
I continue to take it. 

571
00:34:41,300 --> 00:34:44,100
Seriously. 
Here's a little problem, though.

572
00:34:45,500 --> 00:34:49,400
in the Jewish tradition, we know
who God is We learned from the 

573
00:34:49,400 --> 00:34:53,600
beginning, the first words of 
the Bible we get the whole story

574
00:34:53,600 --> 00:34:55,800
and then we get all the way into
Exodus and then finally we have 

575
00:34:55,800 --> 00:34:58,800
the giving of the law and so 
forth but you know it but God 

576
00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:01,500
has established God's Bona 
fides, right? 

577
00:35:01,500 --> 00:35:05,800
You know like what why should 
you listen to this law, right? 

578
00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:08,400
Well I'm the guy who created the
universe and so forth. 

579
00:35:09,500 --> 00:35:12,000
Socrates is very interesting and
I don't know if you noticed this

580
00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:16,900
Mencia in the apology. 
He never names the god. 

581
00:35:18,200 --> 00:35:20,200
True. 
Now, some people say well it's 

582
00:35:20,200 --> 00:35:23,700
Apollo because the Oracle of 
Delphi is the Oracle of Apollo, 

583
00:35:23,700 --> 00:35:29,300
the temple will pop, but in the 
Republic, he talks about and 

584
00:35:29,300 --> 00:35:31,500
this is also a part of this 
effort to sort of clean up, 

585
00:35:31,500 --> 00:35:34,200
Greek religion. 
There's in the end of the second

586
00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:36,700
book of the Republic. 
He lays down some of the 

587
00:35:36,707 --> 00:35:39,900
theological principles. 
In fact, the very first 

588
00:35:39,900 --> 00:35:42,400
occurrence in history. 
As far as we know of the word 

589
00:35:42,400 --> 00:35:47,800
fail logia which literally means
speech about the gods. 

590
00:35:48,300 --> 00:35:52,600
The Cure's in the Republic 
Socrates says, let me give you a

591
00:35:52,600 --> 00:35:55,700
theologia, if you all right, and
he lays out certain principles, 

592
00:35:55,700 --> 00:35:57,600
the gods, don't lie, they don't 
change shape. 

593
00:35:57,600 --> 00:36:00,200
We already saw that from the 
apology, right? 

594
00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:06,500
And, and so, he lays this out, 
but what happens in that context

595
00:36:06,500 --> 00:36:10,800
and elsewhere, as he switches 
from singular to plural, the god

596
00:36:11,300 --> 00:36:16,100
of gods, why does he do this? 
My own intuition is because he 

597
00:36:16,100 --> 00:36:21,600
doesn't know whether they're one
or many, what does he know about

598
00:36:21,600 --> 00:36:25,500
the gods? 
You see, you could read Homer. 

599
00:36:25,900 --> 00:36:29,200
And, you know, it's polytheism 
and you get their names and so 

600
00:36:29,200 --> 00:36:32,200
forth. 
But by the way, the Greek 

601
00:36:32,200 --> 00:36:35,100
historian. 
Herodotus rip very tellingly 

602
00:36:35,100 --> 00:36:37,900
rights at one point. 
You know, we didn't even know 

603
00:36:37,900 --> 00:36:40,700
who the gods were what they did 
until Homer, told us, 400 years 

604
00:36:40,700 --> 00:36:43,900
ago, we just sort of a way of 
saying, like, they're made up. 

605
00:36:43,900 --> 00:36:46,500
You know, I mean, one could 
interpret it that way, but 

606
00:36:46,500 --> 00:36:48,500
Socrates is a humble man, he 
doesn't know. 

607
00:36:49,100 --> 00:36:52,100
But look at it, he doesn't know 
if there's one God or many, but 

608
00:36:52,100 --> 00:36:54,600
he knows they don't lie, they 
tell the truth, and when they 

609
00:36:54,600 --> 00:36:58,200
speak, you better listen to him.
He knows what the characteristic

610
00:36:58,200 --> 00:37:00,900
of a god should be yes in our 
minds. 

611
00:37:01,100 --> 00:37:05,400
That doesn't mean that he knows 
God or that he can speak of the 

612
00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:10,800
God but he could Speak of the 
Gods in terms of what, should 

613
00:37:11,100 --> 00:37:14,100
what, what should be their 
characteristics? 

614
00:37:14,400 --> 00:37:16,700
Yes. 
And one can sort of put it this 

615
00:37:16,700 --> 00:37:21,200
way, right without further 
information because this, of 

616
00:37:21,200 --> 00:37:23,600
course, is the massive 
difference between the Greek 

617
00:37:23,600 --> 00:37:26,700
tradition and the hebraic 
tradition. 

618
00:37:28,700 --> 00:37:32,700
There's no Revelation, right? 
You're in the dark. 

619
00:37:32,700 --> 00:37:35,900
So, so, how to Socrates proceed?
He's, you might sort of put it 

620
00:37:35,900 --> 00:37:38,900
this way. 
What kind of being is worthy to 

621
00:37:38,900 --> 00:37:43,100
be worshiped? 
Exactly. no, not by the way, 

622
00:37:43,200 --> 00:37:47,200
God's who lie or steal, or 
commit adultery and all these 

623
00:37:47,200 --> 00:37:52,100
horrible things, that think that
think that the Greek gods do But

624
00:37:52,100 --> 00:37:59,000
Gods, who are, who are good and 
just, and in fact, Socrates 

625
00:37:59,700 --> 00:38:03,800
presents them almost as models 
for the philosophical life, 

626
00:38:04,100 --> 00:38:08,100
right? 
To be a God is to do what is 

627
00:38:08,100 --> 00:38:09,900
right, because it is right, 
right? 

628
00:38:10,000 --> 00:38:17,100
And then other words, they are 
governed by reason, you know and

629
00:38:17,100 --> 00:38:19,800
in the in the style of 
euthyphro, we might talk about 

630
00:38:20,500 --> 00:38:25,500
it's a discussion of piety and 
Socrates basically says, Is 

631
00:38:25,500 --> 00:38:29,400
something Pious just because God
says it is, right? 

632
00:38:29,800 --> 00:38:31,500
Yeah. 
Just the kind which is a kind of

633
00:38:31,500 --> 00:38:35,000
volunteerism right now with the 
will of the God make something 

634
00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:37,800
Pious, right? 
So what do we mean by piety and 

635
00:38:38,100 --> 00:38:42,500
Greek religion? 
Well, if we just look at the at 

636
00:38:42,500 --> 00:38:46,900
the at the at the myths and the 
stories, if Zeus tells you to do

637
00:38:46,900 --> 00:38:50,900
something, You better do it. 
Why? 

638
00:38:51,300 --> 00:38:54,200
Because you said it, I often put
it this way. 

639
00:38:54,200 --> 00:38:57,200
Zeus is a Godfather. 
Great. 

640
00:38:58,000 --> 00:39:00,600
He's awesome. 
By the way, you know, you know 

641
00:39:01,100 --> 00:39:03,100
you know he's often referred to 
as the father. 

642
00:39:03,100 --> 00:39:08,000
He's got father right now. 
That perspective is not a very 

643
00:39:08,000 --> 00:39:11,200
Humane one, it doesn't sort of 
say a lot about human dignity, 

644
00:39:11,200 --> 00:39:12,800
right? 
Why should I do this? 

645
00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:15,700
Because you said so 
Incidentally, that's what Greek 

646
00:39:15,700 --> 00:39:19,400
prophecy is to Greek dividers. 
You know, they'll cut open an 

647
00:39:19,400 --> 00:39:21,600
animal or look at how a bird 
flies and had various 

648
00:39:21,600 --> 00:39:24,800
techniques. 
And they tell you, for example, 

649
00:39:24,800 --> 00:39:27,200
before a battle, every time they
agreed, we're going to fight a 

650
00:39:27,200 --> 00:39:29,400
battle, they'd have their 
diviner come out, and they 

651
00:39:29,400 --> 00:39:33,000
looking at the kidneys too big 
or something, right? 

652
00:39:33,000 --> 00:39:36,600
You know, whatever the technique
is at, we shouldn't fight today,

653
00:39:37,000 --> 00:39:40,500
it's not auspicious. 
The gods are not behind us and 

654
00:39:40,500 --> 00:39:43,200
you don't question it. 
Socrates hates this. 

655
00:39:44,400 --> 00:39:47,700
He's something Pious because the
God says in his word, is the 

656
00:39:47,700 --> 00:39:51,400
god, say something is pious 
because it's Pious, right? 

657
00:39:52,700 --> 00:39:56,300
Exactly. 
We can locate the exact argument

658
00:39:56,300 --> 00:39:58,700
regarding its fault 
Commandments. 

659
00:39:59,100 --> 00:40:03,600
That's the exact argument, where
maimonides would ve mately 

660
00:40:03,600 --> 00:40:08,500
suggest that that it is a 
Mitzvah is to be done because it

661
00:40:08,500 --> 00:40:10,300
is correct to do it. 
Not? 

662
00:40:10,300 --> 00:40:14,100
Because just because it was 
commanded, but it was commanded.

663
00:40:14,200 --> 00:40:18,000
Cuz there's a rational basis for
it to be commended to us. 

664
00:40:18,600 --> 00:40:21,100
Yeah, and you know, this is 
really important today. 

665
00:40:21,100 --> 00:40:27,400
I mean, you know, The former 
Pope Benedict died recently, and

666
00:40:27,400 --> 00:40:30,100
there's been some good articles 
about him and he was a voice 

667
00:40:30,100 --> 00:40:34,400
within the within the Catholic 
tradition of Reason in 

668
00:40:34,400 --> 00:40:39,900
particular he had strong 
criticisms of Islam because much

669
00:40:39,900 --> 00:40:42,000
of Islam anyway or much the 
Islamic world. 

670
00:40:42,000 --> 00:40:45,500
It's very voluntaristic, right? 
I mean you know it's submit to 

671
00:40:45,500 --> 00:40:47,500
the will of God and no 
questioning. 

672
00:40:47,500 --> 00:40:49,100
Exactly. 
Exactly. 

673
00:40:49,100 --> 00:40:54,100
And you know, there are also 
versions Within Gianna t mean 

674
00:40:54,600 --> 00:40:57,300
long ago made the connection 
between Calvinism and Islam you 

675
00:40:57,300 --> 00:41:00,100
know, Calvin is Calvin teaches 
that there's a doctrine of 

676
00:41:00,100 --> 00:41:02,600
double predestination from 
eternity. 

677
00:41:02,600 --> 00:41:08,100
God has for God's own reasons 
decided that a few human beings 

678
00:41:08,100 --> 00:41:09,900
will be saved. 
And the vast majority will be 

679
00:41:09,900 --> 00:41:13,000
damned, right? 
And that's just the way it is 

680
00:41:14,000 --> 00:41:17,300
and we don't know why. 
I mean that's just so this is 

681
00:41:17,300 --> 00:41:21,800
complete kind of volunteerism. 
Incidentally I would say 

682
00:41:21,800 --> 00:41:26,900
willfulness is a huge problem in
the world today and those like 

683
00:41:26,900 --> 00:41:30,700
maimonides and others who wish 
to restore it Benedict, an 

684
00:41:30,700 --> 00:41:35,900
understanding of reason right of
our rational, capabilities to 

685
00:41:35,900 --> 00:41:40,800
grasp what God has commanded or 
is this is extremely important. 

686
00:41:40,800 --> 00:41:46,700
So so yeah. 
So let me say Less thing about 

687
00:41:46,700 --> 00:41:49,500
the connection and we can maybe 
talk about some specifics in 

688
00:41:49,500 --> 00:41:54,500
the, in the, in the talmud. 
Um, Another thing I noticed and 

689
00:41:54,500 --> 00:41:59,500
that is that it looks to me like
and we can debate and discuss 

690
00:41:59,500 --> 00:42:05,300
this, it looks to me like the 
talmud is what Leo Strauss would

691
00:42:05,300 --> 00:42:11,200
call or that the talmud as a 
text incorporates, what? 

692
00:42:11,200 --> 00:42:13,000
Leo Strauss would call 
esotericism. 

693
00:42:13,000 --> 00:42:20,600
Let me explain by that. 
So esotericism from the Stasi 

694
00:42:20,600 --> 00:42:22,200
and point of view is saying 
different things. 

695
00:42:22,200 --> 00:42:24,900
Things to different audiences. 
Okay? 

696
00:42:26,700 --> 00:42:31,200
And it's gotten a bad reputation
because the critics want to see 

697
00:42:31,200 --> 00:42:33,700
it as like a secret teaching 
that's available. 

698
00:42:33,700 --> 00:42:37,000
Only to a select few, who 
understand what the author is 

699
00:42:37,000 --> 00:42:41,800
really doing beneath the surface
but that's not it at all. 

700
00:42:42,700 --> 00:42:45,400
I would suggest it's a 
recognition that different 

701
00:42:45,400 --> 00:42:49,700
audiences have different needs 
and need to be met at different 

702
00:42:49,700 --> 00:42:53,400
places. 
We all Is that cetera system, 

703
00:42:53,700 --> 00:43:00,600
you know, in the sense that we 
tailor, what we say to the 

704
00:43:00,600 --> 00:43:05,300
person were speaking to and to 
the occasion, sort of silly 

705
00:43:05,300 --> 00:43:07,300
example, right? 
But let's say you have a great 

706
00:43:07,300 --> 00:43:11,600
aunt who loves to wear ugly 
hats, and she comes in with your

707
00:43:11,600 --> 00:43:15,400
ugly hat and she asks you, if 
your her hat looks good. 

708
00:43:16,300 --> 00:43:19,200
What do you say? 
You know, you don't say, you 

709
00:43:19,200 --> 00:43:22,300
know, and Shelly, let me just 
lay it on the line here. 

710
00:43:22,300 --> 00:43:26,300
You've always worn ugly, hats 
and super no, you don't do that.

711
00:43:27,900 --> 00:43:31,600
Now, in what sense would and 
I'll set aside the platonic 

712
00:43:31,600 --> 00:43:34,000
dogs, but in what sense would 
the town would be esoteric? 

713
00:43:35,300 --> 00:43:38,400
Because it connects and this is 
a very interesting question. 

714
00:43:38,900 --> 00:43:43,200
It has both a traditionalist 
level and a kind of anti 

715
00:43:43,200 --> 00:43:47,600
traditionalist level. 
So the traditionalist level is 

716
00:43:48,200 --> 00:43:50,800
God, gave the world a lot of 
Moses at Sinai. 

717
00:43:51,200 --> 00:43:54,500
And what we're trying to do at 
this late date is to reconstruct

718
00:43:54,500 --> 00:43:57,200
what that law was, right? 
It's sort of gotten corrupted, 

719
00:43:57,200 --> 00:43:59,900
over the years. 
My example is somebody gives you

720
00:44:00,400 --> 00:44:03,100
full Bowl brimming of water and 
you hand it to the next day, 

721
00:44:03,100 --> 00:44:04,400
some water spills out and so 
forth. 

722
00:44:04,400 --> 00:44:08,700
You keep asking The up and 
that's the source of the debates

723
00:44:08,700 --> 00:44:11,300
between the house of Hillel in 
the house of shimei and so 

724
00:44:11,300 --> 00:44:12,800
forth. 
And we're reconstructing. 

725
00:44:13,400 --> 00:44:16,500
What we know is authoritative 
and true because it was given to

726
00:44:16,500 --> 00:44:23,500
Moses by God or maybe it's 
possible for there to be new 

727
00:44:23,500 --> 00:44:27,500
understandings and new insights 
as we move forward. 

728
00:44:27,600 --> 00:44:30,700
And there's a kind of anti 
traditionalists trained in the 

729
00:44:30,700 --> 00:44:34,000
talmud as well where it 
suggested that. 

730
00:44:34,900 --> 00:44:38,300
You know, the road from Sinai 
isn't completely paved but we 

731
00:44:38,300 --> 00:44:44,100
can sort of extend it further. 
And so I see this as a kind of 

732
00:44:44,500 --> 00:44:48,200
way of giving readers what they 
need right. 

733
00:44:48,300 --> 00:44:51,400
And by the way, the Telma 
doesn't decide this question, it

734
00:44:51,400 --> 00:44:57,400
just presents two perspectives. 
So that's I think actually think

735
00:44:57,400 --> 00:44:58,300
go ahead. 
Interesting. 

736
00:44:58,300 --> 00:45:03,700
Because the so so the only view 
the ghonim right? 

737
00:45:03,700 --> 00:45:08,100
They They took the former and 
said it was basically, there was

738
00:45:08,100 --> 00:45:11,800
stuff that got like, you know, 
corrupted and to reconstruct 

739
00:45:11,800 --> 00:45:17,300
maimonides though believes that 
essential within Moses giving 

740
00:45:17,300 --> 00:45:21,200
over the oral law was also 
certain principles that the 

741
00:45:21,200 --> 00:45:25,400
rabbi's with authority can 
actually create new with, they 

742
00:45:25,400 --> 00:45:29,600
can create new laws. 
I want to say there are details 

743
00:45:29,600 --> 00:45:31,300
in the laws. 
May be new laws, wrong word, but

744
00:45:31,300 --> 00:45:34,500
there are details. 
Let's say unexplained details. 

745
00:45:34,600 --> 00:45:37,800
Right? 
That are kind of left to the to 

746
00:45:37,800 --> 00:45:45,300
the, to the stages to, by using 
certain methods of the Kaaba 

747
00:45:45,300 --> 00:45:49,900
home are Cloud broad practical 
using those given given 

748
00:45:49,900 --> 00:45:51,900
principles. 
They can actually create a new 

749
00:45:51,908 --> 00:45:55,600
one that's actually meant to be 
so it's kind of both sides of 

750
00:45:55,607 --> 00:45:57,700
the coin. 
Are actually being played out 

751
00:45:57,700 --> 00:46:00,200
over there. 
Right there are there's that 

752
00:46:00,200 --> 00:46:03,200
tradition that got kind of maybe
somewhat corrupted the needs to 

753
00:46:03,200 --> 00:46:06,600
be reconstructed but a Along 
with that right maimonides also 

754
00:46:06,600 --> 00:46:09,600
inserts the fact that yeah the 
rabbis did have certain 

755
00:46:09,600 --> 00:46:12,100
authority to fill in details 
right? 

756
00:46:12,100 --> 00:46:16,800
Or even create new Customs or 
what not based on you know their

757
00:46:16,800 --> 00:46:18,900
times. 
So that's just interesting 

758
00:46:18,900 --> 00:46:22,400
because there's actually a 
little playoff that goes on you 

759
00:46:22,400 --> 00:46:25,100
know based on what based off of 
what you said between the grown 

760
00:46:25,100 --> 00:46:27,600
even the wrong number. 
Yeah and if you know what's 

761
00:46:27,600 --> 00:46:30,900
interesting too is the so here's
another comparison with Socrates

762
00:46:32,100 --> 00:46:36,200
You know, he is accused of the 
actual charges that were brought

763
00:46:36,200 --> 00:46:39,900
against him at his trial, were 
not acknowledging. 

764
00:46:39,900 --> 00:46:44,700
The gods of Athens, sort of not 
sort of the Greek word is no 

765
00:46:44,700 --> 00:46:47,300
mids enemies like customarily 
acknowledging, like not thick, 

766
00:46:47,300 --> 00:46:50,500
not in accordance with custom 
acknowledging, the Gods in the 

767
00:46:50,500 --> 00:46:53,900
customary way, but introducing 
new deities. 

768
00:46:54,100 --> 00:46:57,700
Okay, I already pointed out. 
He's critical of the Greek gods.

769
00:46:58,700 --> 00:47:00,300
Right? 
And he presents a picture of the

770
00:47:00,300 --> 00:47:02,600
Gods that's quite different from
what you read in Homer, for 

771
00:47:02,600 --> 00:47:04,700
example. 
But there's another sense in 

772
00:47:04,700 --> 00:47:08,400
which Socrates is super 
traditional he embraced. 

773
00:47:08,400 --> 00:47:11,200
So in Homer, there's a 
fundamental contradiction. 

774
00:47:12,000 --> 00:47:15,900
If you read The Odyssey, there's
a passage do. 

775
00:47:15,900 --> 00:47:18,800
Odysseus has gone home and he's 
in Disguise and he's being 

776
00:47:18,800 --> 00:47:21,900
mistreated by the men who have 
invaded his house and are trying

777
00:47:21,900 --> 00:47:26,000
to marry his wife. 
And and there's a discussion 

778
00:47:26,000 --> 00:47:30,200
about somebody says, oh and he 
He's dressed as a beggar and and

779
00:47:30,200 --> 00:47:33,000
one of these suitors of his 
wife, there's a hundred eight of

780
00:47:33,000 --> 00:47:35,800
them in the house has like 
thrown a stool at him, and 

781
00:47:35,800 --> 00:47:37,800
they're berating Odysseus, they 
don't know what. 

782
00:47:37,800 --> 00:47:40,200
So Casillas. 
And somebody says, don't you 

783
00:47:40,207 --> 00:47:42,700
know that the gods wander 
through the cities of men, 

784
00:47:43,200 --> 00:47:48,800
observing our deeds, and seeing 
whether we're just or unjust and

785
00:47:48,800 --> 00:47:50,900
in fact, ultimately Justice is 
done. 

786
00:47:51,300 --> 00:47:53,900
And with the aid of Athena 
Odysseus defeats the suitors. 

787
00:47:53,900 --> 00:47:56,500
He kills them all. 
You know? 

788
00:47:56,500 --> 00:48:03,000
And and and he achieves victory.
And we see this elsewhere in the

789
00:48:03,000 --> 00:48:07,000
Greek myths, that we got these 
two contradictory views, Zeus 

790
00:48:07,300 --> 00:48:11,400
commits, you know, all kinds of 
crimes and adultery and so 

791
00:48:11,400 --> 00:48:13,100
forth, but he's also an agent of
Justice. 

792
00:48:13,700 --> 00:48:17,200
Well, Socrates grabs onto that 
gods are agents of Justice. 

793
00:48:17,900 --> 00:48:22,200
He holds to the idea that 
customer ideals of filial piety,

794
00:48:22,200 --> 00:48:24,800
right? 
You, you respect your father's, 

795
00:48:24,800 --> 00:48:27,300
you respect. 
And, and by the way, of course, 

796
00:48:27,300 --> 00:48:30,200
there's the this idea. 
Of fundamental respect for Law 

797
00:48:31,700 --> 00:48:37,900
and so, you know, and as I said,
he he believes that what the 

798
00:48:37,900 --> 00:48:41,100
Oracle said that the Oracle is a
site of contact with the Divine.

799
00:48:41,500 --> 00:48:45,400
So there's a kind of interesting
tension between these things and

800
00:48:45,400 --> 00:48:52,700
I think that's another point of 
connection with the talmud 

801
00:48:54,000 --> 00:49:01,800
wonderful wonderful incredible. 
For the second segment, what we 

802
00:49:01,800 --> 00:49:07,200
would like to do is to have you 
go into the examples that you 

803
00:49:07,200 --> 00:49:10,500
provide in your book which is 
Honea Miguel, which is a story 

804
00:49:10,500 --> 00:49:13,700
that you zoom in on to bring to 
life these ideas that you were 

805
00:49:13,700 --> 00:49:17,100
mentioning before in the 
previous segment and you said 40

806
00:49:17,100 --> 00:49:22,900
with apology if you can, if you 
can sort of give us an overview 

807
00:49:23,100 --> 00:49:31,600
and kind of get into that too. 
Yeah, sure thanks. 

808
00:49:32,500 --> 00:49:35,100
So one of the stories that I 
talked about, which will be 

809
00:49:35,100 --> 00:49:38,400
familiar to your listeners, is 
the start story of 

810
00:49:38,400 --> 00:49:45,000
honi-ha-magel, a honi the circle
drawer and the story occurs 

811
00:49:45,300 --> 00:49:48,400
before the rabbinic period, 
during the time of the 

812
00:49:48,400 --> 00:49:53,300
Sanhedrin, there is the head of 
the Sanhedrin is a guy named 

813
00:49:53,300 --> 00:49:59,500
Shimon been shot off. 
And Whose Senate who's an 

814
00:49:59,500 --> 00:50:04,700
important stage who is devoted 
to the law to following the law 

815
00:50:06,000 --> 00:50:10,000
and you know there's actually a 
famous story about Shimon. 

816
00:50:10,900 --> 00:50:13,300
He sees a guy go into a house 
with a knife. 

817
00:50:15,200 --> 00:50:17,700
The guy comes out of the house. 
Two minutes later, covered with 

818
00:50:17,700 --> 00:50:19,600
blood, the knife is covered with
blood. 

819
00:50:19,800 --> 00:50:22,600
He goes in the house, he finds 
someone dead. 

820
00:50:23,100 --> 00:50:25,900
He's been stabbed. 
But what can Shimon do? 

821
00:50:25,900 --> 00:50:28,900
Because the law is, you got to 
have two witnesses to a crime, 

822
00:50:30,300 --> 00:50:34,800
and I could multiply examples, 
but, you know, he's sort of very

823
00:50:35,300 --> 00:50:38,000
rational rationalistic. 
This is what the law does. 

824
00:50:38,000 --> 00:50:42,500
We abide by the law. 
He also is, he's strictly 

825
00:50:42,500 --> 00:50:46,600
devoted to the law, but he also,
It has a kind of Proto rabbinic 

826
00:50:46,600 --> 00:50:48,400
understanding. 
How do you earn Merit? 

827
00:50:48,400 --> 00:50:50,600
You earn Merit through study, 
right? 

828
00:50:50,600 --> 00:50:55,700
You earn Merit through this, you
know, Devotion to unpacking law,

829
00:50:55,700 --> 00:50:57,800
and debating and understanding 
it. 

830
00:50:58,700 --> 00:51:04,100
Now this onee character doesn't 
quite fit that Paradigm and I 

831
00:51:04,107 --> 00:51:08,100
should I should back up because 
this is in the context of a 

832
00:51:08,107 --> 00:51:12,600
discussion and Tawny which 
raises questions about, how can 

833
00:51:12,600 --> 00:51:17,100
we tell when Thing is a curse or
a blessing. 

834
00:51:17,100 --> 00:51:19,900
How can we tell who is 
deserving? 

835
00:51:19,900 --> 00:51:22,400
And who is not? 
These are sort of General issues

836
00:51:22,400 --> 00:51:26,300
in the air. 
And the context here is there's 

837
00:51:26,300 --> 00:51:29,700
a drought droughts going out, 
address going on. 

838
00:51:30,000 --> 00:51:34,300
The rabbi's have prayed, they 
Pray For Rain a natural way to 

839
00:51:34,300 --> 00:51:36,000
interpret. 
This is that, you know, God is 

840
00:51:36,000 --> 00:51:41,100
punishing the people because of 
some Perhaps unknown or 

841
00:51:41,100 --> 00:51:45,300
unspecified sin and God won't 
bring rain because, of course we

842
00:51:45,300 --> 00:51:48,600
read over and over again in 
Hebrew scriptures that, you 

843
00:51:48,600 --> 00:51:52,900
know, if you you know, walk in 
my ways that here the law and so

844
00:51:52,900 --> 00:51:53,800
forth. 
They're going to get rain, 

845
00:51:53,800 --> 00:51:56,500
you're gonna get food and 
otherwise know. 

846
00:51:57,400 --> 00:52:01,600
So the story is told in various 
ways is told him to Mission as 

847
00:52:01,600 --> 00:52:06,100
told him the gemara in one case 
I think the disciples come to 

848
00:52:06,100 --> 00:52:09,500
honi because he's got these 
disciples and in another case 

849
00:52:09,500 --> 00:52:13,800
the I think the people come to 
directly, but in any case, They 

850
00:52:13,800 --> 00:52:19,100
know that honi has the capacity 
to he's got some kind of direct 

851
00:52:19,100 --> 00:52:22,400
line to God and you can sort of 
work, what looks like Miracles. 

852
00:52:22,400 --> 00:52:26,800
And by the way Miracles is 
another big big theme in this 

853
00:52:26,800 --> 00:52:32,200
section of time neat which is a 
real interest to rabbinic 

854
00:52:32,200 --> 00:52:36,800
Judaism because Miracles are 
these you know, unforeseen 

855
00:52:36,800 --> 00:52:40,000
interventions into sort of the 
rational order of the world and 

856
00:52:40,000 --> 00:52:41,700
it presents a problem. 
Like why would there be 

857
00:52:41,700 --> 00:52:44,300
miracles? 
For example, if there are 

858
00:52:44,300 --> 00:52:48,400
Miracles is God, is that a sort 
of implicit admission that the 

859
00:52:48,400 --> 00:52:50,700
world wasn't set up right at the
beginning. 

860
00:52:51,000 --> 00:52:54,100
You know, that there has to be 
this intervention at this point.

861
00:52:54,300 --> 00:52:56,200
So, how do I understand? 
Miracles are so that's a whole 

862
00:52:56,200 --> 00:53:02,700
nother set of issues. 
But anyway, only comes in And he

863
00:53:02,700 --> 00:53:05,200
begins behaving in a very 
strange way. 

864
00:53:06,100 --> 00:53:10,700
He draws a circle around himself
and he talks directly to God and

865
00:53:10,700 --> 00:53:15,100
he says I'm not going to leave 
this circle until you give me 

866
00:53:15,100 --> 00:53:17,800
rain. 
Like what? 

867
00:53:19,000 --> 00:53:22,900
And sure enough little drop 
start coming down. 

868
00:53:22,900 --> 00:53:25,500
Tiny little Mists not very much,
you know. 

869
00:53:26,700 --> 00:53:31,800
And then Holy says, I didn't ask
for this mr. 

870
00:53:31,800 --> 00:53:36,100
Crane and what rain? 
And then the rabbi's report, you

871
00:53:36,100 --> 00:53:39,700
know, drops like the size of an 
orange, start coming down, I 

872
00:53:39,707 --> 00:53:43,400
mean, they're just huge, I just 
inundated right? 

873
00:53:43,700 --> 00:53:46,400
And meanwhile, the disciples are
the people are standing there 

874
00:53:46,400 --> 00:53:49,900
looking on and they're like, and
therefore, they're depicted. 

875
00:53:49,900 --> 00:53:55,100
By the way, is fearful children 
fearful children, in fact, they 

876
00:53:55,100 --> 00:53:59,400
refer to a phony as well 
actually, think, in the first 

877
00:53:59,400 --> 00:54:02,100
story, it's actually children 
who go to him and say my father.

878
00:54:02,100 --> 00:54:04,200
My father, bring rain and Tony 
says something like. 

879
00:54:04,400 --> 00:54:09,000
Like these kids don't 
understand, you know, that it's 

880
00:54:09,200 --> 00:54:11,700
the Father in Heaven who brings 
rain, not me, right? 

881
00:54:11,800 --> 00:54:14,400
But they sort of treat him as 
this, and there's a suggestion 

882
00:54:14,400 --> 00:54:18,000
throughout that which he sort of
confirms and you know what he 

883
00:54:18,000 --> 00:54:27,300
says that that The people don't,
you know, that they're that 

884
00:54:27,300 --> 00:54:30,400
they're very childish, and 
they're sort of incapable of 

885
00:54:30,600 --> 00:54:32,500
thinking, even sort of thinking 
for themselves. 

886
00:54:33,200 --> 00:54:37,400
So, anyway, all this rain comes 
down and, and people freak out 

887
00:54:37,400 --> 00:54:40,000
there, like, oh now we're going 
to, you know, we're going to 

888
00:54:41,000 --> 00:54:45,300
drown right and own. 
He's like, it's sort of 

889
00:54:45,300 --> 00:54:47,600
Goldilocks story, right? 
He's like, I didn't ask for a 

890
00:54:47,600 --> 00:54:51,100
flood, you know? 
So and then the right amount of 

891
00:54:51,100 --> 00:54:55,500
rain comes right. 
Now she won't been shut off. 

892
00:54:55,500 --> 00:54:59,400
Has been watching all this. and 
he says, to him something like 

893
00:55:00,500 --> 00:55:04,300
If you weren't honi, I would 
decree a ban on you. 

894
00:55:04,400 --> 00:55:08,800
And what does that mean? 
It's sort of expresses this 

895
00:55:08,800 --> 00:55:11,100
perplexity. 
Because here's Coney, he's not a

896
00:55:11,100 --> 00:55:15,100
sage, the gemara, by the waist, 
for the tries to turn him into a

897
00:55:15,100 --> 00:55:18,100
sage. 
But he's, he's not a sage. 

898
00:55:18,100 --> 00:55:21,100
He's got some special 
relationship to God. 

899
00:55:21,500 --> 00:55:25,200
He actually says, at one point 
that to God, he's like a son of 

900
00:55:25,200 --> 00:55:28,800
his house, right? 
And he behaves in a way that is 

901
00:55:28,800 --> 00:55:32,300
very unfair. 
Inning, according to she wants 

902
00:55:32,300 --> 00:55:37,300
lights and to say, if you were 
holding a decree, a ban on you. 

903
00:55:37,300 --> 00:55:39,800
And by the way, Shimon is well 
known. 

904
00:55:39,900 --> 00:55:43,600
This is part of his rationalism 
for having executed, like, 80 

905
00:55:43,600 --> 00:55:48,200
witches in Ashkelon. 
He doesn't like, you know, he's 

906
00:55:48,200 --> 00:55:51,900
very suspicious of people who 
look like miracle workers or 

907
00:55:52,100 --> 00:55:54,400
harnessing, you know, mysterious
powers and so forth. 

908
00:55:54,400 --> 00:55:57,400
He's no friend of mysterious 
Powers. 

909
00:55:58,000 --> 00:56:01,000
So when he says, I would decree 
a ban on you like How far does 

910
00:56:01,000 --> 00:56:02,700
that go? 
I mean this is a dangerous thing

911
00:56:03,100 --> 00:56:05,700
but then he says, if you weren't
honi and I think what that means

912
00:56:05,700 --> 00:56:11,300
is like you got results, right? 
And ultimately, I have to 

913
00:56:11,300 --> 00:56:13,400
acknowledge, I'm expanding the 
duck. 

914
00:56:13,400 --> 00:56:15,600
He's stuck. 
Yeah, he's stuck. 

915
00:56:16,000 --> 00:56:17,500
Yeah. 
But he didn't get any. 

916
00:56:17,500 --> 00:56:18,600
Also didn't get the right 
amount. 

917
00:56:18,600 --> 00:56:20,000
That's the thing eventually? 
Yeah. 

918
00:56:20,100 --> 00:56:24,100
Eventually but it took time it's
not like a right right right. 

919
00:56:24,200 --> 00:56:30,500
So so I mean I think it's an 
acknowledgement that I could 

920
00:56:30,500 --> 00:56:33,400
sort of sum it up this way. 
You have a special relationship 

921
00:56:33,400 --> 00:56:36,800
to God that I do not exactly 
comprehend because Shima goes on

922
00:56:36,800 --> 00:56:41,100
and says you behave like a small
child, you behave like a small 

923
00:56:41,100 --> 00:56:43,800
child here, you know, one 
doesn't talk to God this way. 

924
00:56:43,800 --> 00:56:45,700
One doesn't make demands this 
way. 

925
00:56:48,500 --> 00:56:51,200
And, you know, he's 
fundamentally perplexed about 

926
00:56:51,200 --> 00:56:59,000
what to do about this. 
Because it challenges his entire

927
00:56:59,100 --> 00:57:03,100
rational framework. 
He represents a text based 

928
00:57:03,100 --> 00:57:05,300
system of law, that's rational 
and teachable. 

929
00:57:05,900 --> 00:57:09,700
As I said, there are other 
rabbis who are associated with 

930
00:57:09,700 --> 00:57:13,700
the capacity. 
For example, Rabbi Eliezer in 

931
00:57:14,900 --> 00:57:19,300
the oven of off my story, just 
to give one example, who has 

932
00:57:19,300 --> 00:57:24,600
some kind of capacity, like 
liquid has the ear of god, let's

933
00:57:24,600 --> 00:57:30,300
say, and and can perform certain
sorts of miraculous actions but 

934
00:57:30,300 --> 00:57:34,800
Rabbi Eliezer has his powers 
because he is the best student 

935
00:57:35,200 --> 00:57:39,900
of Torah, you know, around like 
he has earned that Merit he has 

936
00:57:39,900 --> 00:57:47,400
proven Pony, has not Why is this
guy who's so important and who 

937
00:57:47,408 --> 00:57:49,600
doesn't have any of the 
capabilities that you would 

938
00:57:49,600 --> 00:57:53,600
ordinarily associate with what 
we believe produces married in 

939
00:57:53,600 --> 00:57:56,300
the eyes of God? 
Remember I said it who is 

940
00:57:56,300 --> 00:58:00,400
meritorious and it was not so 
you kind of shakes up, she moans

941
00:58:00,400 --> 00:58:03,800
worldview. 
Why is this the case? 

942
00:58:03,800 --> 00:58:07,800
Yeah, you have an interesting 
footnote just before you go on 

943
00:58:07,800 --> 00:58:10,200
with this because you're going 
to take it to a lot of places 

944
00:58:10,200 --> 00:58:13,200
that I wanted to just this 
tension that you mentioned. 

945
00:58:13,400 --> 00:58:17,500
You bring Safari Safari. 
I don't know how to mention his 

946
00:58:17,500 --> 00:58:20,000
name. 
What's who's that? 

947
00:58:20,000 --> 00:58:24,600
Guy's to fry? 
Which basically wants to put 

948
00:58:24,600 --> 00:58:28,300
honi into the plastic Camp. 
Not when we say custody 

949
00:58:28,300 --> 00:58:31,800
agreement, the consider Michonne
him of the talmud. 

950
00:58:31,800 --> 00:58:34,300
And he has an interesting. 
I was just hoping you can just 

951
00:58:34,300 --> 00:58:35,500
like, tell a little bit about 
that. 

952
00:58:35,500 --> 00:58:37,800
Little that. 
Yeah, what you do? 

953
00:58:37,800 --> 00:58:39,100
You happen to have that 
footnote? 

954
00:58:39,300 --> 00:58:43,100
Yeah, it's page 82. 
Footnote 11. 

955
00:58:43,600 --> 00:58:46,000
All right, I'm going to have to 
read reacquaint myself, here, 

956
00:58:46,000 --> 00:58:48,900
surprises. 
Yeah. 

957
00:58:56,100 --> 00:59:00,300
Yeah. 
So we've got these acetic care 

958
00:59:00,300 --> 00:59:02,800
asthmatics. 
I guess this is a ver eyes for 

959
00:59:02,800 --> 00:59:13,800
age of surprise phrase, and so 
these are these kind of miracle 

960
00:59:13,800 --> 00:59:19,100
workers at kind of Hiatus. 
Yes, yes they are. 

961
00:59:19,400 --> 00:59:25,000
They are pietists who valued 
Deeds more than study and who's 

962
00:59:25,000 --> 00:59:26,500
actually Actions. 
Displayed confidence in 

963
00:59:26,500 --> 00:59:29,000
Providence and in the Salvation 
route is all day for, right, 

964
00:59:29,000 --> 00:59:31,800
behavior, and even in the 
Miracles, which were to be 

965
00:59:31,800 --> 00:59:33,700
revealed to them, according to 
stir-fry. 

966
00:59:34,300 --> 00:59:37,800
So, phony is sort of a 
representative of this group. 

967
00:59:38,400 --> 00:59:42,200
And what is suggested here is 
that the story reflects this 

968
00:59:42,200 --> 00:59:45,600
uneasy relationship between 
these acetic karris Mattox and 

969
00:59:45,600 --> 00:59:49,500
these pharisaic sages like 
Shimon Ben chetta, what's 

970
00:59:49,500 --> 00:59:50,400
Justin? 
Yeah. 

971
00:59:50,500 --> 00:59:53,700
That's really interesting 
because in Yeshiva it's no one 

972
00:59:53,700 --> 00:59:57,600
really No one really puts like a
barrier between the cinema 

973
00:59:57,600 --> 01:00:00,900
showed him in the sages. 
They're kind of just put all 

974
01:00:00,900 --> 01:00:03,100
together in one lump. 
It's just like, you know, maybe 

975
01:00:03,100 --> 01:00:06,800
a more devotional expect within 
the sages or well, you mentioned

976
01:00:06,800 --> 01:00:08,000
that you mentioned that they're 
good. 

977
01:00:08,000 --> 01:00:12,700
Morrow, tries to make Coney into
kind of a rabbi but he's not so 

978
01:00:12,700 --> 01:00:14,000
no. 
Yeah, that would actually go 

979
01:00:14,000 --> 01:00:16,100
against what he's saying here. 
But I think that you mention in 

980
01:00:16,100 --> 01:00:20,800
your book that the gemara is 
when the Tom when the when the 

981
01:00:21,100 --> 01:00:24,400
gemara interjects within the 
story it's framing it. 

982
01:00:24,400 --> 01:00:26,100
A little It differently than the
mishnah. 

983
01:00:26,300 --> 01:00:27,700
So, yes, yeah. 
Okay. 

984
01:00:27,700 --> 01:00:31,400
So you'll yeah, yeah. 
So so, I mean, so first, a 

985
01:00:31,400 --> 01:00:36,600
couple things to notice here, 
The talmud which I, you know I 

986
01:00:36,600 --> 01:00:40,400
think it's fair to say that the 
general attitude of the talmud 

987
01:00:40,400 --> 01:00:47,900
is on the side of Shimon you 
know because you know it there 

988
01:00:47,900 --> 01:00:50,400
are there are principles of 
interpretation, there are 

989
01:00:50,400 --> 01:00:53,200
principles of debate, there's 
principles of discussion, we see

990
01:00:53,200 --> 01:00:57,000
constant dispute and 
interpretation and argumentation

991
01:00:57,000 --> 01:01:01,900
over halacha practices. 
But what's amazing is that it 

992
01:01:01,900 --> 01:01:06,900
includes this story, right? 
When I shouldn't say what's 

993
01:01:06,900 --> 01:01:08,400
amazing about the talmud is 
include the sir. 

994
01:01:08,500 --> 01:01:10,100
The talmud includes these kinds 
of stories all the time. 

995
01:01:10,100 --> 01:01:14,100
What I mean by these kinds of 
stories stories that call into 

996
01:01:14,100 --> 01:01:17,800
question their own institution, 
their own institutions, their 

997
01:01:17,800 --> 01:01:21,600
own presuppositions and, you 
know, what's the point of doing 

998
01:01:21,600 --> 01:01:25,900
that? 
Well, they, these kinds of 

999
01:01:25,900 --> 01:01:30,600
stories do a couple of things. 
One thing is Shimon is reminded 

1000
01:01:30,600 --> 01:01:34,400
in the reader is reminded that 
there is you know to quote ham 

1001
01:01:34,500 --> 01:01:36,700
There's more in Heaven and Earth
than are dreamt of in your 

1002
01:01:36,700 --> 01:01:39,600
philosophy, right? 
That there are limitations to 

1003
01:01:39,600 --> 01:01:42,400
the human understanding, one of 
the things I talk about in my 

1004
01:01:42,400 --> 01:01:45,100
book and I've got this wonderful
episode of Eleazar and the ugly 

1005
01:01:45,100 --> 01:01:46,800
man, right? 
He's riding along On an ass. 

1006
01:01:46,800 --> 01:01:50,600
And and he's, you know, he's 
thinks that oh, I'm so great. 

1007
01:01:50,600 --> 01:01:53,800
I'm a talmudic scholar and so 
forth and runs into an ugly man.

1008
01:01:53,800 --> 01:01:55,400
And he says, ours, is everyone 
from your village? 

1009
01:01:55,400 --> 01:01:58,700
This likely, you know, and the 
ugly man says, I don't know, why

1010
01:01:58,700 --> 01:02:02,000
don't you go ask my maker? 
Why don't you ask the guy who 

1011
01:02:02,000 --> 01:02:04,400
made me write and it sort of 
shocks him? 

1012
01:02:04,500 --> 01:02:06,200
Right. 
He actually learns Torah from 

1013
01:02:06,200 --> 01:02:08,800
this guy, right? 
This Anonymous, man, and he's 

1014
01:02:08,800 --> 01:02:12,600
brought up short, he's like, 
there's an induced humility. 

1015
01:02:12,600 --> 01:02:16,400
In this case, this is one things
about Judaism, by the way, I 

1016
01:02:16,400 --> 01:02:23,200
mean it's, you know, the same 
the same Bible that lays out 

1017
01:02:23,200 --> 01:02:28,100
very clearly, right? 
You adhere to the law, you walk 

1018
01:02:28,100 --> 01:02:30,500
in my ways and so forth. 
You're going to get rain to get 

1019
01:02:30,500 --> 01:02:33,700
food. 
It's going to be and not if not 

1020
01:02:33,700 --> 01:02:36,500
not. 
Has the Book of Job. 

1021
01:02:37,200 --> 01:02:41,000
I mean this is really amazing 
that like because so Judaism has

1022
01:02:41,800 --> 01:02:44,900
I would call this a 
philosophical element, right? 

1023
01:02:44,900 --> 01:02:47,600
In other words. 
Never forget. 

1024
01:02:49,200 --> 01:02:52,600
That you are a human being and 
that is smart as you are. 

1025
01:02:52,600 --> 01:02:55,800
And as learned as you are, you 
have to be humble because you 

1026
01:02:55,800 --> 01:02:58,900
cannot understand everything at 
the same time. 

1027
01:02:58,900 --> 01:03:01,500
Of course, the talmud 
celebrates, you know, the 

1028
01:03:01,500 --> 01:03:03,800
Majesty of intellect, right? 
So I'm thinking of Solavei 

1029
01:03:03,800 --> 01:03:06,400
chicks, famous article, you 
know, majesty and humility. 

1030
01:03:07,100 --> 01:03:09,200
And there's something like that 
in Socrates too. 

1031
01:03:10,500 --> 01:03:14,400
By the way because Socrates is 
going around and saying and this

1032
01:03:14,400 --> 01:03:19,100
is very paradoxical. 
I am the wisest human being You 

1033
01:03:19,100 --> 01:03:21,000
know why? 
Because I know that I'm not 

1034
01:03:21,000 --> 01:03:25,800
wise. 
And so is he humbler is the 

1035
01:03:25,800 --> 01:03:27,500
Arrogant. 
You know this very interesting. 

1036
01:03:27,500 --> 01:03:30,000
Paradox is Kierkegaard says 
somewhere. 

1037
01:03:30,000 --> 01:03:34,700
Incidentally, that the Paradox 
is the passion of thought and a 

1038
01:03:34,707 --> 01:03:37,800
thinker without a paradox is 
like a lover without passion. 

1039
01:03:39,700 --> 01:03:41,800
And I think that's right. 
I think that applies to Judaism.

1040
01:03:41,800 --> 01:03:45,900
I think it applies to Plato. 
It's these contradictions. 

1041
01:03:45,900 --> 01:03:48,100
So here's another contradiction 
that you mentioned been sealed. 

1042
01:03:50,100 --> 01:03:55,300
The gemara turns, honey into a 
rabbi and finished the later 

1043
01:03:55,300 --> 01:03:57,900
part of the story, which is 
really sort of tragic. 

1044
01:03:58,600 --> 01:04:04,300
It goes on to talk about honi 
and you almost might say this is

1045
01:04:04,300 --> 01:04:06,900
not quite fair if I were going 
to put it really strongly and 

1046
01:04:06,900 --> 01:04:11,300
from the point of view of a may 
be excessively critical person, 

1047
01:04:11,300 --> 01:04:17,000
I'd say the camargue gets its 
revenge on homey because because

1048
01:04:17,000 --> 01:04:22,100
what happens is, and and it gets
us revenge on phony in a way 

1049
01:04:22,100 --> 01:04:30,800
that shows that He's not. 
Like he doesn't lead anywhere, 

1050
01:04:30,800 --> 01:04:33,200
he's not. 
He's well, first of all, he's an

1051
01:04:33,200 --> 01:04:35,000
isolated guy, right? 
Here's this phony. 

1052
01:04:35,000 --> 01:04:38,600
He doesn't fit into the 
framework of Shimon. 

1053
01:04:39,100 --> 01:04:42,200
And I think the circle around 
him kind of almost is a 

1054
01:04:42,200 --> 01:04:46,900
suggestion of how cutoff he is 
because, you know, how do you 

1055
01:04:46,900 --> 01:04:49,200
hit? 
So, here's a question, how can a

1056
01:04:49,200 --> 01:04:54,100
person whose Excellence, if you 
will or whose power. 

1057
01:04:55,100 --> 01:04:57,300
Consistent a special 
relationship with God which 

1058
01:04:57,300 --> 01:05:01,300
nobody can quite understand, 
have any Offspring intellectual 

1059
01:05:01,300 --> 01:05:06,100
last week, and is there a future
for that kind of person right 

1060
01:05:06,900 --> 01:05:09,600
now, the thing is in rabbinic 
Judaism, there's always a future

1061
01:05:10,300 --> 01:05:14,400
because you have houses of study
and you have traditions and 

1062
01:05:14,400 --> 01:05:17,700
people can learn and that it can
become expert in these things 

1063
01:05:17,700 --> 01:05:20,100
and they can become rabbis, and 
they can pass it on from their 

1064
01:05:20,100 --> 01:05:22,100
teacher to the teacher, the next
teacher. 

1065
01:05:22,700 --> 01:05:24,300
How do you teach Miracle 
working? 

1066
01:05:24,500 --> 01:05:26,400
If you see what I'm saying, you 
don't. 

1067
01:05:27,300 --> 01:05:29,400
So the gemara does a couple 
things. 

1068
01:05:29,400 --> 01:05:33,900
It turns in into a sage maybe 
because it's a little bit 

1069
01:05:33,900 --> 01:05:36,100
uncomfortable with him. 
Maybe there's an irony here, I'm

1070
01:05:36,100 --> 01:05:39,200
not sure what but phony, it says
he always worried about this 

1071
01:05:39,200 --> 01:05:43,200
verse that in the Bible. 
About comparing I think 

1072
01:05:43,200 --> 01:05:47,500
comparing the Exile in Babylonia
to 70 years of sleep, right? 

1073
01:05:48,000 --> 01:05:52,100
Is like, how could you sleep for
70 years and He's sort of 

1074
01:05:52,107 --> 01:05:54,500
miraculously put to sleep for 70
years. 

1075
01:05:56,100 --> 01:06:00,500
Oh, but before that, he, he runs
into a guy who's planning a 

1076
01:06:00,500 --> 01:06:03,700
carob tree and he's like, why 
are you planning a carob tree? 

1077
01:06:04,400 --> 01:06:06,800
You know, the fruit from this 
tree, it takes decades to get 

1078
01:06:06,800 --> 01:06:09,200
anything to eat from it. 
Kara was a very big source of 

1079
01:06:09,200 --> 01:06:12,300
nutrition and you know, ancient 
Palestine. 

1080
01:06:12,300 --> 01:06:16,600
It it's I mean, I'm not sure 
it's particularly good but it's 

1081
01:06:16,600 --> 01:06:20,300
it was a main source of food. 
And the guy says, yeah, I'm not 

1082
01:06:20,300 --> 01:06:23,300
going to eat it. 
But my grandchildren will Which 

1083
01:06:23,300 --> 01:06:25,700
sort of suggests that homey, 
kind of doesn't understand 

1084
01:06:26,700 --> 01:06:29,100
right? 
The Dora Dora. 

1085
01:06:29,100 --> 01:06:30,800
I mean you got future 
Generations. 

1086
01:06:30,800 --> 01:06:33,600
You need to he's in. 
This is what in the world in a 

1087
01:06:33,600 --> 01:06:35,000
sense? 
Yes. 

1088
01:06:35,100 --> 01:06:37,200
Yes. 
And so he falls asleep for 70 

1089
01:06:37,200 --> 01:06:41,100
years and he wakes up and he 
goes to the beit midrash, right?

1090
01:06:41,600 --> 01:06:46,100
And they're talking about Coney.
Hey there like, you know, in the

1091
01:06:46,100 --> 01:06:48,300
days of Honey with this would 
all be clear. 

1092
01:06:48,300 --> 01:06:50,600
He would explain everything and 
so forth which of course is 

1093
01:06:50,800 --> 01:06:54,500
bizarre because, you know, No, 
according to mishnah like that. 

1094
01:06:54,500 --> 01:06:58,600
He's not a sage he doesn't, you 
know, so so phone. 

1095
01:06:58,600 --> 01:07:02,800
He's like I'm horny and they 
don't believe him. 

1096
01:07:04,000 --> 01:07:10,500
Like, he's just, he's sort of, 
you know, cut off and then he 

1097
01:07:10,508 --> 01:07:13,300
dies, right? 
So, what's going on here? 

1098
01:07:14,800 --> 01:07:19,600
The suggestion is. 
That Cody is you know you sort 

1099
01:07:19,600 --> 01:07:21,200
of a one-off there isn't a 
future. 

1100
01:07:21,200 --> 01:07:25,400
He's not going to make like like
okay they'll talk about maybe 

1101
01:07:25,600 --> 01:07:27,000
you know, his decisions and so 
forth. 

1102
01:07:27,000 --> 01:07:37,500
But there's a sort of a sad end 
note here, which is that Unlike 

1103
01:07:37,700 --> 01:07:44,000
these rabbis Coney is not 
there's no kind of spiritual 

1104
01:07:44,000 --> 01:07:47,300
fruitfulness that's going to 
endure and inform the lives of 

1105
01:07:47,300 --> 01:07:49,900
later. 
People at least that's sort of 

1106
01:07:49,900 --> 01:07:53,400
how I look at it. 
It's very it's very similar to 

1107
01:07:53,700 --> 01:07:59,000
the story of Elijah eliyahu 
hanavi in the Torah where he he 

1108
01:07:59,000 --> 01:08:01,300
is. 
This Zealot zealous person for 

1109
01:08:01,300 --> 01:08:05,000
God and he's, you know, going by
the book. 

1110
01:08:05,100 --> 01:08:08,900
But Essentially his miracles are
not, he's being told by the 

1111
01:08:08,900 --> 01:08:10,700
king. 
Your this is going to last for a

1112
01:08:10,700 --> 01:08:13,400
little bit of time here, this 
this magic that you're doing, 

1113
01:08:13,400 --> 01:08:15,800
whatever it is it's just going 
to impact the people for a very 

1114
01:08:15,800 --> 01:08:19,200
short period of time and at the 
end God critiques him and says 

1115
01:08:19,200 --> 01:08:23,800
this this approach that you have
of like theatrics and everything

1116
01:08:23,800 --> 01:08:25,700
like that. 
It's it's not going to work. 

1117
01:08:25,700 --> 01:08:28,000
You need to use a cold in my 
mind that Chi, you need to use a

1118
01:08:28,500 --> 01:08:31,899
like a stock soft still voice 
and that, and that something 

1119
01:08:31,899 --> 01:08:35,100
that can be passed on basically 
an event in eventually, he's 

1120
01:08:35,100 --> 01:08:40,100
replaced. 
By Alicia who basically fixes 

1121
01:08:40,100 --> 01:08:43,100
all the mistakes that LEL makes 
and he's kind of seen as like a 

1122
01:08:43,100 --> 01:08:46,000
cautionary tale. 
Ellie, I want to be where as you

1123
01:08:46,008 --> 01:08:48,800
know citrusy kind of the same 
thing with with Coney Coney is 

1124
01:08:48,800 --> 01:08:52,399
this you know Miracle Worker. 
Who cannot? 

1125
01:08:53,200 --> 01:08:55,000
It's not sustainable for the 
future. 

1126
01:08:55,000 --> 01:08:58,000
It's not going to be passed on. 
Yeah that's right. 

1127
01:08:58,000 --> 01:09:02,600
And you know so this actually 
sort of points in a couple of 

1128
01:09:02,600 --> 01:09:05,500
directions. 
I mean I see something similar. 

1129
01:09:05,600 --> 01:09:08,500
Blur going on in the story of 
the oven of Asana which your 

1130
01:09:08,500 --> 01:09:09,899
listeners probably know a lot 
about. 

1131
01:09:09,899 --> 01:09:14,399
But basically the I'll just very
briefly say and it's a fantastic

1132
01:09:14,399 --> 01:09:18,200
story. 
The rabbi's at the rabbinical 

1133
01:09:18,200 --> 01:09:23,500
Academy at yavne. 
Are debating the purity of an 

1134
01:09:23,500 --> 01:09:27,600
oven. 
And Rabbi Eliezer who, by the 

1135
01:09:27,600 --> 01:09:30,500
way the stories about Eleazar 
are just like this guy was the 

1136
01:09:30,500 --> 01:09:33,600
top guy. 
I mean, he, you know, and 

1137
01:09:33,700 --> 01:09:35,899
actually one of the stories that
can remember, where is drawn 

1138
01:09:35,899 --> 01:09:40,399
from his father. 
Didn't want him to study his 

1139
01:09:40,399 --> 01:09:43,700
father was a rich man and he, 
and he goes, and he studies and,

1140
01:09:43,700 --> 01:09:45,899
and then he sort of become, you 
know, and then his father comes 

1141
01:09:45,899 --> 01:09:48,500
to Jerusalem to visit him and he
find his father finds out. 

1142
01:09:48,500 --> 01:09:50,100
Oh, this guy is respected by all
the. 

1143
01:09:50,300 --> 01:09:53,500
People. 
And, you know, he's regarded as 

1144
01:09:53,500 --> 01:09:56,700
a great sage and so on into the 
front, I think they moved him to

1145
01:09:56,700 --> 01:09:59,600
the front so that his father can
see him with all the rich 

1146
01:09:59,600 --> 01:10:00,600
people. 
Yes. 

1147
01:10:00,600 --> 01:10:01,300
Right. 
Right. 

1148
01:10:01,300 --> 01:10:03,200
They kind of set it up for that.
Yeah. 

1149
01:10:03,600 --> 01:10:07,200
And so then and so then so then 
the father who had disinherited 

1150
01:10:07,200 --> 01:10:10,300
him was like I'm going to you 
know, you're my guy, you know, 

1151
01:10:10,500 --> 01:10:13,100
he sort of reconcile with him. 
I'm going to give you my 

1152
01:10:13,100 --> 01:10:17,100
inheritance over and you know 
phonies like to sum up very 

1153
01:10:17,100 --> 01:10:20,100
briefly. 
It's like well actually I don't 

1154
01:10:20,200 --> 01:10:23,700
Need any of that, you know, I'm 
he sort of positions himself as 

1155
01:10:23,700 --> 01:10:26,900
like, my real father is God, you
know, the something like this, 

1156
01:10:26,900 --> 01:10:29,500
another, the Zapata something. 
But anyway, so here's Eliezer, 

1157
01:10:29,500 --> 01:10:32,200
he's the top guy and they're 
debating it and by the way it's 

1158
01:10:32,200 --> 01:10:35,700
a very interesting argument. 
That Eleazar is making but his 

1159
01:10:35,700 --> 01:10:40,200
side is actually quite dumb. 
Sword from a practical 

1160
01:10:40,200 --> 01:10:43,600
perspective. 
It's, it's a good position 

1161
01:10:43,600 --> 01:10:47,000
because the side of the rabbi's 
is that the oven that has been 

1162
01:10:47,000 --> 01:10:49,900
Rippin rendered in pure is 
completely a and these communal 

1163
01:10:49,900 --> 01:10:52,400
ovens were expensive and you'd 
have to like rebuild the whole 

1164
01:10:52,400 --> 01:10:56,500
table and you'd have and Eliezer
has position that like oven come

1165
01:10:56,500 --> 01:10:59,200
in these parts. 
And if one part is rendered in 

1166
01:10:59,200 --> 01:11:01,800
pure, you could replace that. 
And so, it's less expensive and 

1167
01:11:01,800 --> 01:11:04,400
sober, but the rabbi's they 
don't agree. 

1168
01:11:04,400 --> 01:11:08,300
So Eleazar, it says he gave all 
the arguments of the world and 

1169
01:11:08,400 --> 01:11:11,400
The way, they're probably really
good arguments because he's the 

1170
01:11:11,400 --> 01:11:15,000
top guy. 
He knows, you know, he's the 

1171
01:11:15,000 --> 01:11:21,700
greatest talmudic scholar around
and and finally Eleazar says, 

1172
01:11:22,400 --> 01:11:25,000
let me show you. 
If my position is right, let the

1173
01:11:25,008 --> 01:11:28,300
carob tree jump in the carob 
tree jumps like 50 meters or 

1174
01:11:28,300 --> 01:11:31,300
something and basically the 
rabbi's are like that's that's 

1175
01:11:31,300 --> 01:11:34,500
irrelevant. 
We want an argument, you gave us

1176
01:11:34,500 --> 01:11:38,900
a miracle, how does your ability
to perform that Miracle persuade

1177
01:11:38,900 --> 01:11:41,000
us of the correctness of your 
position? 

1178
01:11:41,700 --> 01:11:44,200
Right? 
We're playing the the 

1179
01:11:44,200 --> 01:11:46,600
intellectual game we are 
playing, is argumentation, you 

1180
01:11:46,600 --> 01:11:48,400
make it opinion, you back it up 
with arguments. 

1181
01:11:48,400 --> 01:11:49,700
You didn't back it up with 
arguments. 

1182
01:11:49,700 --> 01:11:52,500
You backed it up with a miracle 
that's in effect what they're 

1183
01:11:52,500 --> 01:11:53,700
saying. 
I think and then at some point 

1184
01:11:53,700 --> 01:11:55,500
he's like Let The Stream flow 
backwards, stream flows 

1185
01:11:55,500 --> 01:11:59,500
backwards, Let the study house 
walls fall and the walls out of 

1186
01:11:59,500 --> 01:12:02,100
respect for Eliezer they fall 
halfway but they stopped because

1187
01:12:02,100 --> 01:12:04,600
they Which is actually really 
terrible because if they had 

1188
01:12:04,600 --> 01:12:06,800
fallen, he would have killed all
the other rabbis and maybe 

1189
01:12:06,800 --> 01:12:10,500
himself. 
But anyway, so finally a bot, 

1190
01:12:10,500 --> 01:12:14,100
coal comes a voice from God and 
says, why don't you agree with 

1191
01:12:14,100 --> 01:12:18,900
Rabbi Eliezer? 
Because he's always right on 

1192
01:12:18,900 --> 01:12:22,200
matters of Holocaust. 
And one of the rabbi's stands up

1193
01:12:22,200 --> 01:12:26,200
and says to God, it is not in 
heaven, which the rabbi's 

1194
01:12:26,200 --> 01:12:28,900
interpret to mean you gave us 
the Torah. 

1195
01:12:30,100 --> 01:12:33,000
We have our own system here 
where we examine the Torah. 

1196
01:12:33,000 --> 01:12:38,000
We reflect we use all of our 
intelligent capabilities, to 

1197
01:12:38,000 --> 01:12:40,800
understand what it means. 
And actually God, you're not 

1198
01:12:40,800 --> 01:12:45,800
part of this debate. 
And then God, let it says that 

1199
01:12:45,800 --> 01:12:48,000
Elijah went to God. 
And God said, my children have 

1200
01:12:48,000 --> 01:12:50,300
bested me my children. 
This is the father-son that 

1201
01:12:50,300 --> 01:12:52,900
children think now, what does 
this mean? 

1202
01:12:52,900 --> 01:12:55,900
Well, it connects with Greek 
philosophy to because in 

1203
01:12:55,900 --> 01:13:00,200
Aristotle's politics He says, if
you have someone who is 

1204
01:13:00,200 --> 01:13:03,500
absolutely outstanding in 
virtue, you either need to make 

1205
01:13:03,500 --> 01:13:06,500
him king or you have to 
ostracize him, got to get rid of

1206
01:13:06,508 --> 01:13:08,800
them. 
And what their rabbis did there 

1207
01:13:09,400 --> 01:13:14,500
is they didn't challenge The 
View that Eliezer was, right. 

1208
01:13:15,700 --> 01:13:18,400
In fact, my own intuition is 
they probably thought he was 

1209
01:13:18,400 --> 01:13:20,200
right? 
They just wanted to pick a fight

1210
01:13:20,400 --> 01:13:24,800
because if Eleazar is around and
he's got this special sort of 

1211
01:13:24,800 --> 01:13:28,700
connection with God, okay? 
What are the other rabbis doing?

1212
01:13:29,800 --> 01:13:32,000
They're just going to have to 
obey, whatever he thinks they're

1213
01:13:32,000 --> 01:13:35,000
completely irrelevant. 
So it's a way, the community 

1214
01:13:35,000 --> 01:13:39,300
sort of stands up for its own 
existence, as a community of 

1215
01:13:39,300 --> 01:13:41,600
rational interpretation and 
debate. 

1216
01:13:42,100 --> 01:13:45,900
It stands up for itself almost, 
you might put it this way. 

1217
01:13:46,100 --> 01:13:48,600
As long as Ellie ages around, 
we're just children compared to 

1218
01:13:48,600 --> 01:13:51,900
him. 
But we want to engage in the 

1219
01:13:51,900 --> 01:13:56,500
adult activity which all Jews 
are called to of thinking, for 

1220
01:13:56,500 --> 01:14:01,400
themselves of studying, Torah of
determining, the truth, height 

1221
01:14:01,500 --> 01:14:03,600
of giving it to their best 
effort. 

1222
01:14:03,600 --> 01:14:06,600
And if Eleazar is around or 
anybody like him we can't do 

1223
01:14:06,600 --> 01:14:09,400
that. 
So there's a kind of rebellion I

1224
01:14:09,400 --> 01:14:13,000
sort of rationalist rebellion. 
And then by the way they 

1225
01:14:13,000 --> 01:14:15,600
excommunicated Eleazar and all 
kinds of bad stuff happens 

1226
01:14:16,000 --> 01:14:18,300
because he causes miracles to 
sort of get back at them. 

1227
01:14:20,900 --> 01:14:24,200
But the same thing happens in 
with regard to Socrates, because

1228
01:14:24,200 --> 01:14:27,300
as I said, Socrates, has a 
special relationship with the 

1229
01:14:27,300 --> 01:14:31,300
god in some way and the same 
questions arise that have to do 

1230
01:14:31,300 --> 01:14:37,100
with Coney. 
Can Socrates, you know, is that 

1231
01:14:37,100 --> 01:14:42,400
special relationship with God 
somehow involved in his ability 

1232
01:14:42,400 --> 01:14:44,800
or inability to produce 
students? 

1233
01:14:46,300 --> 01:14:49,600
There is let me connect it with 
honi this way, and then, I'll 

1234
01:14:49,608 --> 01:14:54,200
stop in the phaedo, the 
dialogue, where Socrates dies, 

1235
01:14:55,200 --> 01:14:57,400
he's been sentenced to death, 
and he's drinking Hemlock, which

1236
01:14:57,400 --> 01:15:00,900
is a horrible poison and his 
students begin crying. 

1237
01:15:00,900 --> 01:15:03,100
And they say to him, Socrates, 
what are we going to do without 

1238
01:15:03,100 --> 01:15:05,200
you? 
How will we philosophize? 

1239
01:15:05,200 --> 01:15:07,400
What will we do? 
And I've always thought Socrates

1240
01:15:07,400 --> 01:15:11,000
must have been very disappointed
at that because his whole effort

1241
01:15:11,000 --> 01:15:16,600
was to help people mature, be 
independent, thinkers be capable

1242
01:15:16,600 --> 01:15:20,500
of argumentation, and discourse 
and debate and philosophize for 

1243
01:15:20,500 --> 01:15:22,700
themselves. 
And here they are like little 

1244
01:15:22,700 --> 01:15:27,200
children saying, Without you we 
can't go on, right? 

1245
01:15:27,800 --> 01:15:29,600
And there really is an 
interesting question. 

1246
01:15:29,600 --> 01:15:31,600
By the way I mentioned, they 
wrote a book on Kierkegaard and 

1247
01:15:31,600 --> 01:15:35,200
Socrates Kierkegaard basically 
has this critique of Socrates. 

1248
01:15:36,800 --> 01:15:40,800
You know, the philosophic life 
can set you on the right path 

1249
01:15:41,200 --> 01:15:43,800
and can help you to live. 
Well and so forth. 

1250
01:15:44,700 --> 01:15:52,100
If your Socrates, if you are the
kind of person who lives up to 

1251
01:15:52,100 --> 01:15:55,200
his best understanding, if you 
have tremendous, Intelligence. 

1252
01:15:55,200 --> 01:15:57,600
You figure things out on your 
own and you live up to your best

1253
01:15:57,600 --> 01:16:04,400
understanding and, you know, you
put your thoughts into action. 

1254
01:16:04,400 --> 01:16:07,600
There's no split between your 
speech and deed your integrated 

1255
01:16:07,600 --> 01:16:11,000
whole human being wholesome, 
human being, but unfortunately 

1256
01:16:11,000 --> 01:16:12,500
the rest of us aren't like 
Socrates. 

1257
01:16:14,100 --> 01:16:17,900
So this question of the 
reproducibility of say a 

1258
01:16:17,900 --> 01:16:21,900
Socratic, a good life through. 
Socratic inquiry is also 

1259
01:16:21,900 --> 01:16:23,900
challenged. 
I think in the dialogues. 

1260
01:16:25,100 --> 01:16:30,100
Ah yes actually you know I once 
heard a comedian Gary gulman 

1261
01:16:30,100 --> 01:16:34,000
Jewish comedian who said that 
you know the Greeks gave us 

1262
01:16:34,000 --> 01:16:37,700
Aristotle, Plato, and all these 
amazing things and since then 

1263
01:16:37,700 --> 01:16:39,700
they've given us Greek salad and
Yanni. 

1264
01:16:40,200 --> 01:16:43,000
Yeah. 
And and what I always wondered 

1265
01:16:43,000 --> 01:16:46,500
was like, why is why wasn't that
sustainable? 

1266
01:16:47,300 --> 01:16:50,900
For all time the way let's say, 
like, Jerusalem was and and, and

1267
01:16:50,900 --> 01:16:54,700
the, the wisdom of the sages 
actually rescued Judaism from 

1268
01:16:54,800 --> 01:16:58,800
I'm from being obliterated and 
is actually getting stronger and

1269
01:16:58,800 --> 01:17:02,000
stronger in a way, whereas the 
Greeks are, you know, their 

1270
01:17:02,000 --> 01:17:04,800
influence isn't as strong and 
actually, you kind of answered 

1271
01:17:04,800 --> 01:17:09,500
that question now with Socrates 
because it's, it's, it's not 

1272
01:17:09,500 --> 01:17:11,400
easy to pass down something like
that. 

1273
01:17:11,400 --> 01:17:14,900
It's not, it's not ingrained 
into the Layman. 

1274
01:17:15,000 --> 01:17:17,100
It's, it's not given to the the 
people. 

1275
01:17:17,500 --> 01:17:19,500
So I don't know what your 
thoughts on that are. 

1276
01:17:19,800 --> 01:17:26,000
Oh no, I think this is 
absolutely right, but look, The 

1277
01:17:26,000 --> 01:17:31,700
the ground was well prepared 
within the Jewish tradition. 

1278
01:17:31,700 --> 01:17:36,600
I mean, you know, the Torah is 
read aloud from the days of 

1279
01:17:36,600 --> 01:17:44,400
Ezra, you know, the Jews are our
the Traditions, give a very 

1280
01:17:44,400 --> 01:17:47,600
strong support for the idea that
Jews are to study Torah. 

1281
01:17:47,600 --> 01:17:50,300
The words of Torah to be in 
their mouths are supposed to 

1282
01:17:50,300 --> 01:17:54,300
understand it, it is 
ritualistically read and studied

1283
01:17:54,300 --> 01:18:00,200
throughout the year the cycle 
and they placed great emphasis 

1284
01:18:00,400 --> 01:18:06,300
on scholarly Excellence, right? 
And so, you know, you had this 

1285
01:18:06,300 --> 01:18:15,300
ground for a kind of General 
acknowledgement of the 

1286
01:18:15,300 --> 01:18:20,300
importance of these individuals.
We call rabbis who are you know,

1287
01:18:21,600 --> 01:18:25,700
let's say more devoted even to 
study them, the common man. 

1288
01:18:26,200 --> 01:18:27,700
What's the situation with 
Socrates? 

1289
01:18:27,700 --> 01:18:33,400
Well, You know, it's a really 
it's a really difficult position

1290
01:18:33,400 --> 01:18:37,300
that he's in because the great, 
you know, he is off, he's a 

1291
01:18:37,300 --> 01:18:40,500
philosopher and the 
Philosopher's were viewed, not 

1292
01:18:40,500 --> 01:18:43,900
not without Reason, by the way, 
in some sense as kind of 

1293
01:18:43,907 --> 01:18:48,000
dangerous and you know they're 
not really part of the city. 

1294
01:18:48,000 --> 01:18:49,200
They're engaged in this 
activity. 

1295
01:18:49,200 --> 01:18:51,300
That makes little sense to the 
common man. 

1296
01:18:51,300 --> 01:18:54,000
Is this quest for wisdom? 
What are we talking about? 

1297
01:18:54,000 --> 01:18:58,900
Philosophy is not in grade and 
has never been Rained and 

1298
01:18:58,900 --> 01:19:02,400
probably will never in sort of 
the DNA of human communities, 

1299
01:19:02,500 --> 01:19:04,500
right? 
And secondly, it has a terrible 

1300
01:19:04,500 --> 01:19:06,500
problem in the apology. 
The most famous thing. 

1301
01:19:06,500 --> 01:19:09,400
He says there. 
He says, you know, I'm not going

1302
01:19:09,400 --> 01:19:12,100
to stop philosophizing why and 
he says because the unexamined 

1303
01:19:12,100 --> 01:19:16,000
life is not worth living right a
life in which you don't examine 

1304
01:19:16,000 --> 01:19:19,400
and reflect and philosophize is 
not worth living, he's got a 

1305
01:19:19,407 --> 01:19:23,700
serious problem, you know, it's 
because he's talking to an 

1306
01:19:23,700 --> 01:19:26,900
audience of people who do not 
examine life that that the 

1307
01:19:26,900 --> 01:19:28,400
unexamined life is not worth 
living. 

1308
01:19:28,500 --> 01:19:32,000
She is certainly no proof that 
people can't lead unexamined 

1309
01:19:32,000 --> 01:19:33,900
life, they do it all the time. 
All right? 

1310
01:19:33,900 --> 01:19:35,800
People don't particularly think 
for themselves. 

1311
01:19:36,700 --> 01:19:40,600
Bertrand Russell said something 
like people would rather die 

1312
01:19:40,800 --> 01:19:45,400
than think for themselves and 
they do right like they die get 

1313
01:19:45,400 --> 01:19:47,900
out. 
So so how are you? 

1314
01:19:47,900 --> 01:19:53,800
I mean it's almost like if I 
said to you So, suppose I 

1315
01:19:53,800 --> 01:19:56,800
learned a really difficult and 
esoteric like, let's say a 

1316
01:19:56,800 --> 01:19:59,500
played the harp, okay? 
And I said that people look my 

1317
01:19:59,508 --> 01:20:02,600
conviction, is that a life 
without the capacity to play the

1318
01:20:02,600 --> 01:20:05,000
harp on an excellent level 
expert? 

1319
01:20:05,000 --> 01:20:10,700
Level is not worth living Well, 
why would I as a non harpist, 

1320
01:20:11,500 --> 01:20:15,200
you know, believe that the only 
way I might be led to believe 

1321
01:20:15,200 --> 01:20:17,100
that is. 
If I devoted my life to becoming

1322
01:20:17,100 --> 01:20:19,800
an excellent harp player, right?
And then I can say, okay now I 

1323
01:20:19,808 --> 01:20:22,900
know that he was wrong or what a
great or he was right. 

1324
01:20:23,200 --> 01:20:28,000
So how do you convince somebody 
of the importance of these 

1325
01:20:28,000 --> 01:20:29,900
things and it's much easier in 
Judy's? 

1326
01:20:29,900 --> 01:20:32,400
I mean, Plato's trying to like 
jump start a whole culture, 

1327
01:20:32,500 --> 01:20:34,300
right? 
I'm going to make a new hero. 

1328
01:20:34,300 --> 01:20:36,100
He's called Socrates a 
philosophical hero. 

1329
01:20:36,100 --> 01:20:38,600
I want people to look look up. 
I want people to understand that

1330
01:20:38,600 --> 01:20:41,700
there's a kind of transcendent 
realm of divinity and truth, and

1331
01:20:41,700 --> 01:20:44,600
goodness, and Justice, and so 
forth and focus on that and 

1332
01:20:44,600 --> 01:20:48,200
bring that into their lives. 
This is a huge problem, by the 

1333
01:20:48,200 --> 01:20:49,900
way, the Christians love, you 
know, Play-Doh. 

1334
01:20:49,900 --> 01:20:52,900
Because you concerted, you can 
sort of fit this into it, right?

1335
01:20:53,200 --> 01:20:56,100
This idea of transcendence and 
that there are Eternal truths 

1336
01:20:56,100 --> 01:20:59,800
and so forth and that, you know,
but with so what they do is they

1337
01:20:59,800 --> 01:21:03,500
just replace the good, which is 
the highest principle, right? 

1338
01:21:03,600 --> 01:21:06,900
Of Socratic Euros. 
Socratic longings for practice. 

1339
01:21:07,100 --> 01:21:13,000
With God, right? 
But you know and but 

1340
01:21:13,000 --> 01:21:14,400
Christianity is a religion, 
right? 

1341
01:21:14,400 --> 01:21:18,100
So you develop these practices, 
people go to church, they 

1342
01:21:18,100 --> 01:21:20,800
worship and congregations it 
spreads. 

1343
01:21:21,100 --> 01:21:22,900
And now you've got some kind of 
soil by the way. 

1344
01:21:22,900 --> 01:21:26,600
This I think is why you're 
looking at American universities

1345
01:21:26,600 --> 01:21:28,800
and you say well where are 
people really serious about 

1346
01:21:28,800 --> 01:21:31,900
philosophy? 
And again, I'm setting aside the

1347
01:21:31,900 --> 01:21:33,200
Jewish World, right? 
But let's just take like a 

1348
01:21:33,200 --> 01:21:35,100
mirror. 
It's the Catholic universities 

1349
01:21:35,300 --> 01:21:41,300
that still maintain a kind. 
Kind of serious interest in and 

1350
01:21:41,300 --> 01:21:44,500
teaching in and scholarship in 
the philosophical tradition. 

1351
01:21:44,900 --> 01:21:47,400
And why is that and what 
philosophical tradition, what, 

1352
01:21:47,400 --> 01:21:49,700
particularly like ancient 
philosophy and, you know, 

1353
01:21:49,700 --> 01:21:52,800
medieval and so forth and things
that are kind of compatible 

1354
01:21:53,200 --> 01:21:56,600
with, let's say a general 
Catholic view of the world or 

1355
01:21:56,600 --> 01:22:00,300
something. 
It's because they've already got

1356
01:22:00,300 --> 01:22:03,500
the soil, right? 
You know if you go to someone 

1357
01:22:03,500 --> 01:22:05,800
and say well you're a Christian 
and by the way, here's some 

1358
01:22:05,800 --> 01:22:10,400
text. 
Are actually sort of in harmony 

1359
01:22:10,400 --> 01:22:13,100
with what we're doing here. 
And by the way the church 

1360
01:22:13,100 --> 01:22:16,100
fathers understood them and read
them, and they critique them and

1361
01:22:16,100 --> 01:22:17,600
so forth. 
So we're going to study them. 

1362
01:22:18,700 --> 01:22:21,800
But, but that's it, right? 
And the secular world is neither

1363
01:22:21,800 --> 01:22:24,500
philosophical no religious. 
I mean, the soil is not there. 

1364
01:22:26,000 --> 01:22:28,300
Sort of materialist in a way. 
Exactly. 

1365
01:22:28,400 --> 01:22:31,500
Exactly. 
It's a tricky. 

1366
01:22:31,500 --> 01:22:33,600
It's a tricky. 
And if it's a difficult 

1367
01:22:33,600 --> 01:22:38,100
conundrum, like, you know, how 
how do you integrate philosophy 

1368
01:22:38,100 --> 01:22:40,200
with the Common Man? 
How do you do that? 

1369
01:22:40,200 --> 01:22:43,500
Or what's what's the answer to 
that because? 

1370
01:22:43,500 --> 01:22:49,000
Yeah, yeah anybody anybody who 
has delved into philosophy or as

1371
01:22:49,000 --> 01:22:52,700
if any even a small 
philosophical bone knows that 

1372
01:22:52,700 --> 01:22:58,200
it's vital right to humanity to 
advancing to to all the good 

1373
01:22:58,200 --> 01:23:01,100
right yet. 
It's It's very difficult. 

1374
01:23:01,100 --> 01:23:04,900
It's very difficult to translate
that to the common man. 

1375
01:23:05,500 --> 01:23:08,300
So it's kind of like, I don't 
know if there's really an answer

1376
01:23:08,300 --> 01:23:09,900
or what would be your answer if 
you could. 

1377
01:23:11,100 --> 01:23:12,400
Yeah. 
If you had the podium. 

1378
01:23:13,100 --> 01:23:15,000
Yeah. 
Well, we would have to revise 

1379
01:23:15,000 --> 01:23:18,100
the entire educational system. 
That's really where it goes down

1380
01:23:18,100 --> 01:23:20,100
to. 
Yeah, I mean, I mean, look, you 

1381
01:23:20,100 --> 01:23:27,300
know, we are very fortunate 
today in the in that we have 

1382
01:23:27,300 --> 01:23:35,300
behind us Millennia of Truly 
rich and great books, you know, 

1383
01:23:35,800 --> 01:23:42,400
starting with the Hebrew Bible, 
it is, you know, and then then 

1384
01:23:42,400 --> 01:23:46,200
we have this commentary on the 
Hebrew Bible called the New 

1385
01:23:46,200 --> 01:23:49,600
Testament, right? 
Which is also very interesting 

1386
01:23:49,600 --> 01:23:51,500
and, you know, these things give
right? 

1387
01:23:51,600 --> 01:23:57,300
But then that end in connection 
with the ancient Greek roots and

1388
01:23:57,300 --> 01:23:59,300
then the sort of Roman 
appropriation of that. 

1389
01:23:59,900 --> 01:24:05,000
Generates really serious 
reflection on moral and 

1390
01:24:05,000 --> 01:24:09,900
political and social issues, 
gives a very interesting 

1391
01:24:09,900 --> 01:24:12,000
perspective. 
There's a lot of work to be done

1392
01:24:12,000 --> 01:24:16,200
in sort of comparing origin, 
Tales, especially interpreted 

1393
01:24:16,200 --> 01:24:18,400
philosophically of the Greeks, 
right? 

1394
01:24:18,400 --> 01:24:21,000
And comparing that with the 
Bible and so forth. 

1395
01:24:22,400 --> 01:24:28,200
And but and and then this gives 
birth to incidentally. 

1396
01:24:28,200 --> 01:24:34,200
I mean, Grade literature. 
I mean you could look I was tell

1397
01:24:34,200 --> 01:24:37,300
students, you know, if I teach 
if I'd sort of a teach secular 

1398
01:24:37,300 --> 01:24:40,800
students, say something from the
Bible I say how many you want to

1399
01:24:40,800 --> 01:24:43,600
be writers. 
We raise our annual human rights

1400
01:24:43,600 --> 01:24:46,200
fiction, okay? 
All the stories are in the 

1401
01:24:46,200 --> 01:24:49,500
Bible. 
You got to read the Bible, you 

1402
01:24:49,508 --> 01:24:51,600
know. 
You want to understand like in 

1403
01:24:51,600 --> 01:24:54,400
other words you want to 
understand human nature, human 

1404
01:24:54,400 --> 01:24:58,300
beings, human longings. 
Human conflicts political 

1405
01:24:58,300 --> 01:25:00,300
issues. 
This is Source of political 

1406
01:25:00,300 --> 01:25:01,900
wisdom. 
This is a source of spiritual 

1407
01:25:01,900 --> 01:25:03,400
wisdom. 
You got to read the Bible. 

1408
01:25:03,800 --> 01:25:05,500
No, great author doesn't know 
the Bible. 

1409
01:25:05,700 --> 01:25:07,500
You know, it's Shakespeare and 
so forth. 

1410
01:25:07,500 --> 01:25:13,100
So so, but we don't, but my what
I wanted, I mean the punch line 

1411
01:25:13,100 --> 01:25:17,500
is we don't study this stuff or 
if we do, We bring to it, this 

1412
01:25:17,500 --> 01:25:21,100
kind of theoretical Matrix of 
like, you know, political 

1413
01:25:21,100 --> 01:25:24,800
correctness or diversity, equity
and inclusion, or whatever it 

1414
01:25:24,800 --> 01:25:27,300
may be. 
Already know what's in the 

1415
01:25:27,300 --> 01:25:29,000
books? 
I can already tell you, where 

1416
01:25:29,000 --> 01:25:31,400
reading this, who is it? 
Thomas Jefferson a slave owner. 

1417
01:25:32,400 --> 01:25:34,400
This is the lens we're going to 
read this through, right? 

1418
01:25:35,000 --> 01:25:43,900
And to be able to like Okay. 
Why is it if you look at 19 20th

1419
01:25:43,900 --> 01:25:48,400
century and you look at real 
Pioneers right in like 

1420
01:25:48,700 --> 01:25:54,200
groundbreaking thought you know 
in sociology and psychology and 

1421
01:25:54,200 --> 01:25:59,600
you know all kinds of areas. 
They're often Jews who grew up 

1422
01:25:59,600 --> 01:26:05,400
in traditional homes, right? 
And the capacities, I always 

1423
01:26:05,400 --> 01:26:09,300
sort of, think of it this way, 
this incredible idea that has 

1424
01:26:09,300 --> 01:26:10,800
been bhag bhag, says, turn it 
in. 

1425
01:26:10,800 --> 01:26:12,200
Turn it for everything, isn't 
it, right? 

1426
01:26:12,200 --> 01:26:18,200
That the Torah contains all 
wisdom, produces an in it sets 

1427
01:26:18,200 --> 01:26:23,800
an incredible emphasis on the 
skills of interpretation on 

1428
01:26:23,800 --> 01:26:27,900
creative thinking on 
understanding and Those skills 

1429
01:26:27,900 --> 01:26:32,600
are what make the, you know, 
like you say, well, why do Jews 

1430
01:26:32,600 --> 01:26:34,100
went so many Nobel prizes, so 
forth. 

1431
01:26:34,200 --> 01:26:39,100
It's in the DNA. 
It's the skills of saying, this 

1432
01:26:39,100 --> 01:26:41,700
text deserves the greatest 
seriousness. 

1433
01:26:41,700 --> 01:26:45,500
And I'm going to think about it 
and study it, and appropriate it

1434
01:26:45,500 --> 01:26:48,000
and interpret it. 
And when it doesn't work out, 

1435
01:26:48,000 --> 01:26:50,400
the way I'm hoping for, I'm 
going to find clever techniques 

1436
01:26:50,400 --> 01:26:52,000
of interpretation. 
By the way, of course, there's a

1437
01:26:52,000 --> 01:26:54,300
guy, there's a kind of therapy 
are parameters on that. 

1438
01:26:54,300 --> 01:26:57,200
Because if I go too far off, no 
one's going to care, what I 

1439
01:26:57,200 --> 01:27:00,200
Nice. 
A right because there are rules 

1440
01:27:00,200 --> 01:27:02,500
and principles as you pointed 
out earlier for interpretation. 

1441
01:27:02,800 --> 01:27:06,900
So working within a certain 
framework and getting squeezing 

1442
01:27:06,900 --> 01:27:10,200
every last drop of meaning out 
of this text, that's an 

1443
01:27:10,200 --> 01:27:12,400
incredible training for 
intellectual activity. 

1444
01:27:12,900 --> 01:27:16,100
We don't teach students to do 
that, how many students come to 

1445
01:27:16,100 --> 01:27:18,800
a text and say this text is 
worthy of revenant reference. 

1446
01:27:19,300 --> 01:27:24,000
Okay, if you're Annie Shiva, of 
course, but if you're in a 

1447
01:27:24,000 --> 01:27:29,000
public school, the United States
is Finn worthy of reverence is 

1448
01:27:29,000 --> 01:27:30,600
the Bible, we're not going to 
even read. 

1449
01:27:30,600 --> 01:27:33,700
The Bible is Plato, were there 
DNR going to replay? 

1450
01:27:33,700 --> 01:27:37,800
So we have to start introducing 
really meaningful and Rich Works

1451
01:27:37,800 --> 01:27:42,800
to students and saying, rule one
approach this with interpretive 

1452
01:27:42,800 --> 01:27:46,900
charity and generosity and 
believe that these words are 

1453
01:27:46,900 --> 01:27:50,900
deeply meaningful and now try to
understand what they mean and 

1454
01:27:50,900 --> 01:27:54,200
only them criticize. 
The mistake people make is that 

1455
01:27:54,200 --> 01:27:56,800
they think that you if you're 
not a, let's say they were not 

1456
01:27:56,800 --> 01:27:58,900
born. 
Born in a religious atmosphere. 

1457
01:27:58,900 --> 01:28:01,700
A religious family that the 
Bible doesn't have to be taken 

1458
01:28:01,700 --> 01:28:04,500
seriously for them. 
That's the huge mistake that's 

1459
01:28:04,500 --> 01:28:08,300
not true. 
In fact, that's literally almost

1460
01:28:08,300 --> 01:28:11,300
every great thinker in human 
history has taken it seriously 

1461
01:28:11,300 --> 01:28:14,200
without even being Jewish. 
Jonas. 

1462
01:28:14,700 --> 01:28:18,700
That's, that's exactly right. 
And in fact, what's what's so 

1463
01:28:18,700 --> 01:28:20,500
weird is? 
Let's say, we were speaking to a

1464
01:28:20,500 --> 01:28:24,200
kind of program, you know, 
Progressive someone on the far 

1465
01:28:24,200 --> 01:28:26,800
left or something. 
And what I'd like to say to some

1466
01:28:26,800 --> 01:28:29,700
of them. 
And and incidentally there, you 

1467
01:28:29,700 --> 01:28:32,100
know, atheistic, and like, oh 
Christianity, they're ready to, 

1468
01:28:32,300 --> 01:28:35,600
they want maybe attack Islam, 
but Christianity, I want to say 

1469
01:28:35,600 --> 01:28:39,700
to them, but actually, what your
entire framework is a kind of 

1470
01:28:39,700 --> 01:28:43,000
decreed decayed, secularized 
Christianity here, you come. 

1471
01:28:43,000 --> 01:28:46,100
And you say to me if we just 
make this, so we care about 

1472
01:28:46,100 --> 01:28:48,000
Justice, we care about Equity, 
okay? 

1473
01:28:48,000 --> 01:28:51,800
First of all, these are sort of,
you know, moral categories that 

1474
01:28:51,800 --> 01:28:55,700
you come down for a crochet, but
then you say, okay, we're going 

1475
01:28:55,700 --> 01:28:58,000
to create a heaven on Earth. 
A kind of Utopia. 

1476
01:28:58,000 --> 01:29:01,500
If we just change this, if we 
just make things more Equitable,

1477
01:29:01,500 --> 01:29:06,000
if we just do this, we can enter
into a kind of more utopian 

1478
01:29:06,000 --> 01:29:08,700
society and so forth. 
I'm like, this is just, this is 

1479
01:29:08,700 --> 01:29:11,600
just some some, some vert and 
and incidentally the whole 

1480
01:29:11,600 --> 01:29:14,700
notion of like where the True 
Believers, right? 

1481
01:29:15,300 --> 01:29:18,200
We're pure those people are 
impure their sinful ways, you 

1482
01:29:18,208 --> 01:29:20,400
know, because they have white 
skin or whatever it may be 

1483
01:29:20,400 --> 01:29:23,000
right, you know? 
And so all this is just a 

1484
01:29:23,008 --> 01:29:27,100
translation of this inheritance 
and they have no understanding 

1485
01:29:27,800 --> 01:29:29,100
Of any of this. 
This is a funny. 

1486
01:29:29,500 --> 01:29:33,500
They're also reading into all of
these things that even the Bible

1487
01:29:33,500 --> 01:29:37,200
or Thomas Jefferson as you 
mentioned with a modern lens so 

1488
01:29:37,300 --> 01:29:39,800
they're taking you completely 
out of the context. 

1489
01:29:39,800 --> 01:29:41,300
Yes. 
What was going on and that 

1490
01:29:41,300 --> 01:29:43,900
that's also very dangerous 
because you need to learn from 

1491
01:29:43,900 --> 01:29:47,300
history of any to understand 
what it was all about context is

1492
01:29:47,300 --> 01:29:49,600
very very important and what I 
think is what been she was 

1493
01:29:49,600 --> 01:29:52,000
talking about before. 
But building societies based on 

1494
01:29:52,000 --> 01:29:55,000
let's say, philosophy and 
rationalism, even the Jews who 

1495
01:29:55,000 --> 01:29:59,000
are quote unquote irrational, 
who Let's say, more mystical e 

1496
01:29:59,000 --> 01:30:04,400
oriented, they still have the 
the talmudic framework for 

1497
01:30:04,400 --> 01:30:09,100
living and thinking. 
So they still are essentially 

1498
01:30:10,200 --> 01:30:15,800
immersed in a rational World in 
something way, right? 

1499
01:30:15,800 --> 01:30:19,300
And if it's the case to go back 
to this notion of the halacha 

1500
01:30:19,300 --> 01:30:23,400
conscience for the sort of ethos
of Judaism that's got to be 

1501
01:30:23,400 --> 01:30:31,100
transmitted through a way of 
life and Um, you know, I mean 

1502
01:30:31,100 --> 01:30:33,600
there are sort of versions of 
this. 

1503
01:30:34,100 --> 01:30:38,700
Well, one thing that we don't 
really do is, I guess it would 

1504
01:30:38,700 --> 01:30:40,700
cause her intellectual 
apprenticeship. 

1505
01:30:40,700 --> 01:30:42,900
I mean, sometimes people think 
like I can read these books, I 

1506
01:30:42,907 --> 01:30:45,700
understand everything. 
But if you're going to be really

1507
01:30:45,700 --> 01:30:50,500
serious about, let's say doing 
history, right? 

1508
01:30:50,500 --> 01:30:52,800
Like what is historical 
evidence? 

1509
01:30:52,800 --> 01:30:56,300
You know how can I assess it and
so forth, you got to study with 

1510
01:30:56,300 --> 01:30:58,300
a really good historical. 
Dorian and what you learn from 

1511
01:30:58,300 --> 01:31:01,300
that person, our modes of 
thinking and approaching 

1512
01:31:01,300 --> 01:31:04,300
questions and so forth that you 
really can't get out of a book, 

1513
01:31:04,600 --> 01:31:07,600
but that's just the sort of 
relationship between one 

1514
01:31:07,600 --> 01:31:09,100
individual and another. 
Now, if you have a whole 

1515
01:31:09,100 --> 01:31:13,000
community that is reinforcing 
these lessons, it is bringing 

1516
01:31:13,000 --> 01:31:17,400
children up from an early age 
and sort of, you know, they're 

1517
01:31:17,400 --> 01:31:22,200
being acculturated in a very 
significant and Rich way that 

1518
01:31:22,300 --> 01:31:24,700
that, then transmits this, this 
ethos. 

1519
01:31:24,700 --> 01:31:29,300
And so, I think Plano was trying
to You know, again, produce a 

1520
01:31:29,308 --> 01:31:34,200
curriculum that would hopefully 
generate a sort of community as 

1521
01:31:34,200 --> 01:31:38,200
or philosophical community that 
would then produce a sort of 

1522
01:31:38,200 --> 01:31:40,300
ethos, that could then be 
transmitted through the 

1523
01:31:40,300 --> 01:31:42,600
generations. 
It didn't happen, okay? 

1524
01:31:43,700 --> 01:31:46,300
And I think, you know, it's 
just, it's just, it's just too 

1525
01:31:46,300 --> 01:31:50,400
much. 
I mean, if, you know, you, you 

1526
01:31:50,400 --> 01:31:52,900
have to have a kind of religious
basis. 

1527
01:31:52,900 --> 01:31:56,900
It's not enough to just sort of 
say, I can can imitate Socrates 

1528
01:31:57,200 --> 01:32:03,500
Because people won't, you know, 
absolutely, before we go, first 

1529
01:32:03,500 --> 01:32:05,400
of all we want to thank you so 
much for your time because this 

1530
01:32:05,400 --> 01:32:09,300
was so eye-opening and amazing. 
But before you go, we want to 

1531
01:32:09,308 --> 01:32:10,600
hear. 
If you have anything, you want 

1532
01:32:10,600 --> 01:32:14,400
to plug book that that has come 
out or is coming out. 

1533
01:32:14,400 --> 01:32:19,200
Are you working on anything? 
Well you know, right now I am 

1534
01:32:19,800 --> 01:32:22,700
what I'm working on is I'm 
helping to start this new 

1535
01:32:22,700 --> 01:32:27,200
university called the University
of Austin which is here and To 

1536
01:32:27,200 --> 01:32:32,400
Texas and that's dedicated to 
freedom of inquiry, freedom of 

1537
01:32:32,400 --> 01:32:34,100
discourse, freedom of 
conscience. 

1538
01:32:35,500 --> 01:32:37,900
I'm the director of the 
intellectual foundations program

1539
01:32:37,900 --> 01:32:40,500
here and which is a liberal 
studies program. 

1540
01:32:40,800 --> 01:32:43,600
So for example, we have courses 
in the beginning of 

1541
01:32:43,600 --> 01:32:47,300
civilization, you know we read 
Genesis we read the out of say 

1542
01:32:47,300 --> 01:32:50,700
we have courses in the beginning
of politics, we read Exodus, you

1543
01:32:50,700 --> 01:32:52,400
know, we read Herodotus and so 
forth. 

1544
01:32:52,400 --> 01:32:55,100
So I'm trying to really begin 
rooting it right in the great 

1545
01:32:55,100 --> 01:33:01,100
biblical and Ancient Greek texts
and we go through, you know, the

1546
01:33:01,100 --> 01:33:05,100
Western tradition and this is 
essentially a start-up and we've

1547
01:33:05,100 --> 01:33:06,500
been raising lots of money and 
so forth. 

1548
01:33:06,500 --> 01:33:08,900
So I haven't had a chance to be 
working on any books. 

1549
01:33:09,600 --> 01:33:13,200
I have actually been I turned to
writing on the literature 

1550
01:33:13,600 --> 01:33:16,400
written probably eight essays. 
Now for the new Criterion on 

1551
01:33:16,400 --> 01:33:19,700
things like latest one was on 
the brothers karamazov I've 

1552
01:33:19,700 --> 01:33:24,700
written on literature in the 
Soviet period. 

1553
01:33:24,700 --> 01:33:26,900
I'm sort of focused on 
totalitarianism. 

1554
01:33:27,100 --> 01:33:32,600
Now, and kind of sussing out, 
the let's say, the the the 

1555
01:33:32,700 --> 01:33:37,900
increasingly hardening 
ideological domination of 

1556
01:33:37,900 --> 01:33:41,600
politics and so forth. 
So I've been doing short essays.

1557
01:33:42,000 --> 01:33:47,000
If readers are interested in, 
in, in, in Plato, I would direct

1558
01:33:47,000 --> 01:33:49,800
them to my last book which 
already knows five years old in 

1559
01:33:49,800 --> 01:33:54,200
2018, I wrote a book called The 
glaucon's Fate history, myth and

1560
01:33:54,200 --> 01:33:57,300
character in Plato's Republic. 
And I am actually very Be proud 

1561
01:33:57,300 --> 01:34:01,000
of that because the second book 
ever another Republic and it 

1562
01:34:01,000 --> 01:34:04,000
gives you a think, a very rich 
sense of the, both the 

1563
01:34:04,000 --> 01:34:10,300
historical context. 
And Socratic philosophy is 

1564
01:34:10,300 --> 01:34:12,400
against some of the mistakes 
that Socrates made. 

1565
01:34:12,800 --> 01:34:15,100
It's actually about the fate of 
Plato's brother. 

1566
01:34:15,100 --> 01:34:18,900
Glaucon who is one of the main, 
the main interlocutor Socrates 

1567
01:34:18,900 --> 01:34:22,200
in the Republic. 
And my argument is that Socrates

1568
01:34:22,200 --> 01:34:25,000
could not save him for a life of
philosophy. 

1569
01:34:25,000 --> 01:34:29,400
Injustice that glaucon a Lee 
joined, this regime of Plato's 

1570
01:34:29,400 --> 01:34:31,000
relatives called the thirty 
tyrants. 

1571
01:34:31,900 --> 01:34:33,900
So it was a sort of spectacular 
failure. 

1572
01:34:35,000 --> 01:34:37,600
Yeah. 
So anyway that's that's one more

1573
01:34:37,600 --> 01:34:41,300
thing about about your, the 
school University of Austin. 

1574
01:34:41,600 --> 01:34:45,700
So I'm assuming based on what 
you said that you're trying to 

1575
01:34:45,700 --> 01:34:48,200
kind of get people back to the 
classics. 

1576
01:34:48,400 --> 01:34:52,000
Yes. 
Avoid a lot of the trends that 

1577
01:34:52,000 --> 01:34:54,900
you see over, you know, around 
universities, where there's a 

1578
01:34:54,900 --> 01:34:58,900
lot of political influence, In 
terms of how we understand 

1579
01:34:58,900 --> 01:35:00,900
things, what we're learning, 
what children are being 

1580
01:35:00,900 --> 01:35:03,800
indoctrinated with, rather than 
being educated with? 

1581
01:35:04,100 --> 01:35:09,100
Yes, what's kind of gone away 
is, you know, the our Educators 

1582
01:35:09,100 --> 01:35:12,500
teaching us how to think not 
what to think. 

1583
01:35:12,900 --> 01:35:15,200
Yeah. 
So is that something that you 

1584
01:35:15,200 --> 01:35:17,700
that you guys are really 
fighting for? 

1585
01:35:18,100 --> 01:35:22,100
Yeah, absolutely. 
And in fact, I mentioned earlier

1586
01:35:22,100 --> 01:35:27,600
in the podcast, you know, if you
if you if you think about The 

1587
01:35:27,600 --> 01:35:30,700
philosophical ethos like what is
it like to be a philosopher? 

1588
01:35:30,700 --> 01:35:35,200
What is like to be a rabbi that 
requires practical wisdom or 

1589
01:35:35,200 --> 01:35:38,100
require some judgment? 
And that's one of the things 

1590
01:35:38,100 --> 01:35:41,700
that I really want to present to
the world about our school. 

1591
01:35:41,700 --> 01:35:46,700
We want students to be able to 
bring together the best of 

1592
01:35:46,700 --> 01:35:51,300
tradition with the with the sort
of best ideas of the present and

1593
01:35:51,300 --> 01:35:56,100
to take that understanding that 
they've developed and bring it 

1594
01:35:56,100 --> 01:35:57,700
out into the world. 
World. 

1595
01:35:57,800 --> 01:36:01,500
And I would say, I want to 
advertise us as a place that 

1596
01:36:01,500 --> 01:36:06,700
actually strives to develop both
the sort of ordinary Virtues Of 

1597
01:36:06,700 --> 01:36:08,800
like, intellectual courage. 
Right? 

1598
01:36:09,100 --> 01:36:16,000
And humility, and I think other 
virtues, moral virtues that are 

1599
01:36:16,000 --> 01:36:18,600
associated with that moderation 
and so forth. 

1600
01:36:18,700 --> 01:36:21,800
But especially this idea of 
prudence, if you look at our 

1601
01:36:21,800 --> 01:36:25,200
world today, the thing that's 
lacking is good judgment. 

1602
01:36:26,300 --> 01:36:28,400
We've got We've got people in 
all institutions. 

1603
01:36:28,400 --> 01:36:32,600
They I mean, and there's a whole
long story here about perhaps, 

1604
01:36:32,600 --> 01:36:35,600
the way that modernity wants to 
replace judgment with kind of 

1605
01:36:35,600 --> 01:36:39,700
algorithms and procedures and 
kind of rules and principles and

1606
01:36:39,700 --> 01:36:43,700
so forth. 
So yeah, I mean, so how do you 

1607
01:36:43,700 --> 01:36:45,800
develop good judgment? 
You try to see things, hold 

1608
01:36:45,800 --> 01:36:50,100
right, you try to connect 
experience across multiple 

1609
01:36:50,100 --> 01:36:53,000
domains of human experience and 
different approaches. 

1610
01:36:53,000 --> 01:36:58,000
And it seems to me that to be a 
flourishing citizen in the world

1611
01:36:58,000 --> 01:37:00,000
today. 
You know, we have to start at 

1612
01:37:00,000 --> 01:37:03,100
the beginning. 
We have to be informed by these 

1613
01:37:03,100 --> 01:37:06,600
great books of wisdom. 
We have to see how that wisdom 

1614
01:37:06,600 --> 01:37:09,400
was appropriate or failed to be 
appropriated as we move through 

1615
01:37:09,400 --> 01:37:16,100
the ages. 
And you know, at part of this is

1616
01:37:16,100 --> 01:37:19,800
involved with like look when 
when we study a text at the 

1617
01:37:19,800 --> 01:37:22,400
University of Austin, we're not 
going to tell the students. 

1618
01:37:22,800 --> 01:37:25,300
Oh, by the way, this is a book 
that you should all condemned 

1619
01:37:25,300 --> 01:37:28,600
because it's author was a racist
or Like the, why are we studying

1620
01:37:28,600 --> 01:37:30,000
it? 
No, no. 

1621
01:37:30,100 --> 01:37:33,000
Here's the words on the page. 
Respect it. 

1622
01:37:33,400 --> 01:37:37,600
Understand it. 
Discuss it good beta and like 

1623
01:37:37,600 --> 01:37:41,800
the talmud multitude of opinions
are plausible. 

1624
01:37:41,800 --> 01:37:44,200
As long as you can. 
Here's the rule, you can give me

1625
01:37:44,200 --> 01:37:47,100
your opinion, right? 
Has to be pertinent to the 

1626
01:37:47,100 --> 01:37:50,400
discussion but as long as you're
willing to have it examined and 

1627
01:37:50,407 --> 01:37:53,400
you're willing to back it up 
with arguments so that kind of 

1628
01:37:53,400 --> 01:37:56,100
rationalism might think, you 
know, it's a that that reminds 

1629
01:37:56,100 --> 01:37:58,400
me of my mind at ease. 
It says except the truth from 

1630
01:37:58,400 --> 01:38:01,200
whoever says it instead of 
trying to see who said something

1631
01:38:01,300 --> 01:38:03,300
try to understand what's being 
said yes. 

1632
01:38:03,300 --> 01:38:06,700
Something you'll never says it 
but except truth forever Source.

1633
01:38:06,700 --> 01:38:10,500
It comes. 
It doesn't have to be exactly 

1634
01:38:10,600 --> 01:38:13,400
except Truth by what is said not
who said it? 

1635
01:38:13,700 --> 01:38:16,500
Yes, yes. 
And I think today, since we're 

1636
01:38:16,500 --> 01:38:20,400
so divided we look and we say oh
you know this was said by 

1637
01:38:20,400 --> 01:38:24,400
somebody who I am predisposed to
regard as you know about me. 

1638
01:38:24,700 --> 01:38:26,300
Yeah. 
From you can't board. 

1639
01:38:26,300 --> 01:38:29,000
Yeah. 
Jackie had a few podcasts 

1640
01:38:29,000 --> 01:38:31,400
actually to like certain 
segments to do. 

1641
01:38:31,400 --> 01:38:34,900
We do we, you know, throw away 
the art from the artist. 

1642
01:38:34,900 --> 01:38:37,800
The artist happened to be like, 
let's say, like a Bill Cosby, or

1643
01:38:38,200 --> 01:38:40,500
yes, somebody like that. 
So what do we do with that? 

1644
01:38:40,500 --> 01:38:43,700
So it's a very important thing 
and that really the Alicia been 

1645
01:38:43,700 --> 01:38:47,600
a weird story in the talmud. 
Oh, that's really what the 

1646
01:38:47,600 --> 01:38:49,300
question. 
They're posing Reuben scene, 

1647
01:38:49,500 --> 01:38:53,000
we're actually going to have on 
actually present that entire 

1648
01:38:53,000 --> 01:38:57,000
gyda his entire understanding. 
That story is exactly that that 

1649
01:38:57,100 --> 01:39:00,100
I'm going to have to tell ya. 
Can you accept truth from 

1650
01:39:00,100 --> 01:39:05,400
someone who did not exemplify 
exceptional character right? 

1651
01:39:05,400 --> 01:39:07,000
And in his case he was he was a 
sinner. 

1652
01:39:07,400 --> 01:39:10,800
He was an apostle. 
Yes, yes, yes, he understands 

1653
01:39:10,800 --> 01:39:13,600
the story of elusive and of who 
you are and what what the tommen

1654
01:39:13,600 --> 01:39:15,400
is presenting to us this 
conundrum. 

1655
01:39:15,700 --> 01:39:17,400
So it just flowed with what you 
said. 

1656
01:39:17,800 --> 01:39:21,000
That's that's excellent. 
Thank you so much. 

1657
01:39:21,000 --> 01:39:22,800
Thank you so much. 
And there, one, last thing 

1658
01:39:22,800 --> 01:39:25,700
before we go, I did notice 
somewhere, when I was looking at

1659
01:39:25,708 --> 01:39:29,500
some of your bios, you wrote. 
An essay on, theologies 

1660
01:39:29,500 --> 01:39:32,700
regarding the theologies on the 
Holocaust. 

1661
01:39:33,400 --> 01:39:38,500
Yeah, I've well I'm going to 
have to go look. 

1662
01:39:39,300 --> 01:39:43,200
I have I have written on that 
subject but I'm not sure which 

1663
01:39:43,200 --> 01:39:46,300
SAU referring to. 
So, yeah, I was just thinking 

1664
01:39:46,300 --> 01:39:48,800
that, perhaps, maybe down the 
line if you'd ever want to do it

1665
01:39:48,800 --> 01:39:50,200
again. 
Maybe that could be a topic 

1666
01:39:50,200 --> 01:39:52,300
since you've written about. 
It could be. 

1667
01:39:52,900 --> 01:39:54,200
Yes. 
Yes, it could be. 

1668
01:39:54,500 --> 01:39:58,900
I've certainly taught that 
material and it's It's a boy. 

1669
01:39:58,900 --> 01:40:01,100
That's what they talk about, big
questions. 

1670
01:40:01,500 --> 01:40:05,700
Yes, yeah, listen. 
I will have to gird my loins if 

1671
01:40:05,700 --> 01:40:08,100
we do that. 
But, Hey, listen. 

1672
01:40:08,100 --> 01:40:11,700
This has been really delightful,
it's, it's exceeded my 

1673
01:40:11,700 --> 01:40:14,300
expectations completely have 
being able to talk with you 

1674
01:40:14,300 --> 01:40:15,900
guys. 
And I'm going to have to listen 

1675
01:40:15,900 --> 01:40:19,200
to the Jeffrey Rubenstein, 
because that sounds fascinating.

1676
01:40:19,200 --> 01:40:21,500
So I don't know. 
I think I actually think the 

1677
01:40:21,500 --> 01:40:24,400
room and see an episode that we 
did before and even though the 

1678
01:40:24,400 --> 01:40:28,600
episode we do with Professor Len
Goodman, All right, up your 

1679
01:40:28,600 --> 01:40:31,000
alley. 
Len, Len is a good friend of 

1680
01:40:31,000 --> 01:40:32,600
mine. 
Oh yeah. 

1681
01:40:32,600 --> 01:40:36,700
He's he's fantastic. 
I I have the greatest respect 

1682
01:40:36,700 --> 01:40:39,700
for him so well, great. 
Well thank. 

1683
01:40:39,700 --> 01:40:42,100
We're gonna have him on again, 
by the way, to talk about his 

1684
01:40:42,100 --> 01:40:44,000
book on justice, but it's such a
hard book. 

1685
01:40:44,000 --> 01:40:46,900
That's it's the yeah. 
Well that's that's the only kind

1686
01:40:46,900 --> 01:40:49,800
of bulky rights, you know, but 
he's absolutely amazing. 

1687
01:40:50,200 --> 01:40:52,300
All right, thank you. 
Thank you, we appreciate it. 

1688
01:40:52,400 --> 01:40:54,100
Thank you so much. 
Okay. 

1689
01:40:54,100 --> 01:40:55,500
Wonderful week. 
Thank you. 

1690
01:40:59,900 --> 01:41:02,100
Hey guys, thanks so much for 
tuning in to the Judy's and 

1691
01:41:02,100 --> 01:41:05,100
demystified podcast. 
Really appreciate all your 

1692
01:41:05,100 --> 01:41:09,000
support and your feedback. 
If you want to help us grow the 

1693
01:41:09,000 --> 01:41:12,000
podcast, keep spreading the 
word, share it with your 

1694
01:41:12,000 --> 01:41:15,600
friends, family, or whoever you 
think would be interested, we 

1695
01:41:15,600 --> 01:41:19,700
also opened a patreon, so you 
can become a patron, contribute 

1696
01:41:19,700 --> 01:41:22,500
any small amount you'd like 
which would really help us grow 

1697
01:41:22,500 --> 01:41:29,700
the show. 
Our patreon is Patreon.com slash

1698
01:41:29,700 --> 01:41:33,300
Judaism pretty easy to remember.
Thank you again. 

1699
01:41:33,400 --> 01:41:36,100
And we hope to keep putting out 
Rachel's for you guys.