Welcome to Judaism demystified the podcast for the perplexed.
We are joined by dr. Jacob Holland.
Dr. Holland is McFarland professor of philosophy and
Meridius at the University of Tulsa where he taught from 1988
to 2020. He published five books and
roughly 60 articles in review, essays on the thought of Plato
Aristotle. Xena van Kierkegaard, the talmud
the Holocaust, ideological tyranny, and other subjects, a
past winner of the University of Tulsa outstanding teacher award
and the College of Arts and Sciences excellence.
In teaching award, he has received grants from the
National Endowment, for the Humanities, the loot, our
foundation, the ear heart foundation, and the Koch
foundation and has lectured in Israel.
France, England, Romania, Brazil, Denmark, and Norway and
at universities around The United States, his most recent
book is glaucon's fate history, myth and character in Plato's
Republic, Paul dry books. 2018 without further Ado, Professor
Holland. Thank you for joining the
Judaism demystified podcast. Can you tell us a little bit
about how you got into writing your book, Plato and the talmud
and also a little bit about yourself.
Yeah, sure. First I'd like to say that I'm
really glad to be on this podcast.
I think this is going to be a really fun and interesting
discussion. So I might scholarly background
was in Plata, and before I wrote this book on played on the
talmud, I had written three other books, all having to do
with Plato. One was on Plato's Republic,
comparing. It sort of to the Odyssey and
presenting as a kind of Of Odyssey of philosophy.
Another was on a sequence of dialogues, and Plato, the
theaetetus office and Statesman, where Socrates undergoes at the
same time as his public trial. When he's being tried by the
Athenians for impiety and corrupting the young, he
undergoes a kind of philosophical trial.
That's conducted by a stranger, a philosophical stranger from a
place called Delia. And then I wrote a book on
Kierkegaard and Socrates because later philosophers Love Socrates
and they all have their own version of Socrates and
Kierkegaard considered himself a kind of Christian Socrates.
So I had already sort of dealt with comparing sort of Christian
Perspective with a Socratic perspective and seeing what that
generated. And I realized it's actually
very interesting to being different Traditions into
connection with each other because you can find
similarities, you can find differences and fundamental
questions. I think become illuminated that
way. So then, I I belonged to a
conservative congregation in Tulsa, Oklahoma, and around
1998, our Rabbi said, hey, we're going to begin tellman studies
and I hadn't started the talmud before.
I start reading the talmud, I think, we begin with some stuff
in Bottle, Mitzi, and then we turn to time neat.
And then we did some stuff from Sun Heatran.
And I thought this stuff is really familiar because if your
listeners have red Play-Doh, they know that we have these
things called do, Logs, which are really philosophical.
Dramas. And in these philosophical
dramas, most often the character of Socrates appears Socrates,
was the teacher of Plato. And there are discussions and
debates, some of them grow a little bit rancorous
occasionally, but most of the time, they're not about
fundamental issues, fundamental issues like how to live.
What is Justice, what is piety, and so forth.
And the dialogues often do not Reach resolution.
So they'll discuss a topic. There's a wonderful dialogue
called the lakis where the question is, what is encouraged?
And Socrates is talking to a couple of generals who as you
might guess or a little bit embarrassed that they can't give
an account of Courage, and the dialogue seems to end as many
dialogues do with an admission of ignorance.
God, I guess we really don't know what courage is, we're
going to have to keep talking about this.
Now that reminded me of the talmud or rather, the talmud
reminded me Of those dialogues because what you get is a kind
of colloquial, a discussion, a conversation between, you know,
hundreds of review, look over the whole town, but which by the
way, I'm not an expert in the hotel, and I certainly haven't
read the whole town. But, but you have hundreds of,
rabbis debating And discussing all kinds of issues and they
move. And by the way, this is also
characteristic of the platonic dialogues from the most sort of
immediate practical questions, right?
To the most abstract. And kind of Eternal questions.
The platonic dialogues do that, too.
Because they all sort of start out on a very basic level, with
a practical concern. And then philosophy grows out of
the questions that are presented to you in practice, right?
So I mean, you know, in the talmud, it might be a case where
your neighbors tomatoes are leaning over onto your land, and
can you pick them and so forth. And then this kind of you can,
you can Devon a diamonds, you can turn on a dime into some
kind of metaphysical discussion about about the almighty and so
forth. So having noticed this, I
mentioned it to some people, Jacob new, stir, the sort of
great tell the scholar was visiting and I said, gosh,
there's this similarity says, oh, you should write a book on
it right now. I thought.
Wow that's that's a bridge too far.
And then we had read by her being Greenberg and and he told
me the same thing and I thought Thought well, why not?
And once I got into it, I began to rethink.
What I had read in Leo, Strauss. Okay.
So of course, Leo Strauss, The Great German Jew, who came to
the United States in the 30s and single-handedly.
I would say, produced the discipline of political theory
in the United States by bringing a method of reading text very
closely and trying to And, you know, the author's perspective
in the most charitable and generous way Strauss argued that
that the philosophical tradition and the religious tradition and
in particular Judaism are radically incompatible, right?
He says, look, they're incompatible in their
conceptions of wisdom and how to achieve it, right?
So the Beginning he says, of wisdom for.
The Jew is fear of the Lord and love of God.
And the beginning for philosophy is love of the Good Love Of
Truth. The objects of wisdom are
different too because in Greek philosophy, the Greeks are very
interested in distinguishing between what they call na.
Ma slaw sort of conventional law that you might find custom
Unwritten custom written law in particular City and Nature,
right in nature is not simply scientific nature, but a kind of
that the sort of natural order of the universe and, and Strauss
points out that they have at the beginning of philosophy, really
is Wonder. And the began.
And and and and it pursues a kind of autonomous understanding
that human beings can come to the truth, through their own
rational reflection. Whereas whereas in Judaism, the
emphasis is on obedience, and humility Revelation.
Exactly. And it's so, you know what?
I realized and I'll stop here and see if you have any thoughts
about what I've said so far is that the picture changes if you
consider not Not the Bible and Greek philosophy.
And here I should say the way Strauss terms.
It is Athens and Jerusalem, right?
That the detention between Athens and Jerusalem which
incidentally, he saw as a kind of spring, a kind of energizing
tension that's at the heart of Western civilization and I think
that's right. The picture changes if you don't
think of Athens and Jerusalem bible and Greek philosophy in
general. But rather Plato and the talmud
okay, so as I started to think about this, I realized here are
here are some connections, this is this can be sort of a long
list but let me let me mention some of them, both of these
texts, focus on questions and not on answers.
They both are full of sort of paradoxes and inconsistencies,
right and and and contradictions and that's all from the
beginning point is, you know, in talmudic discussion as animal.
Well, there seems to be a contradiction here.
Let's see if we can resolve this both of them end up in a kind of
open-ended way, very often. These Sue goat, you know, they
don't they don't these to move. Ian's don't come to a definitive
answer, right? And and they present a range of
opinions. So for example, in the dialogue
you might have Socrates talking with the beginning of the
Republic through simitis who argues that, you know, Justice
is simply the interest of the stronger, you know.
And Socrates has a much for Moral Moral perspective and then
maybe someone else has another perspective and it's the reader
who has to sort this out and decide where he or she is going
to stand, right? Which of these perspectives are
you To embrace another thing I have to say is that, you know,
the dialogues, there's been some argument and I don't take a
stance on this that the platonic dialogues.
Which, as I said earlier, our philosophical dramas were
actually performed. Okay?
And I mentioned that because they invite reading in a group,
right? I mean you do when you read a
dialogue, the best way to do it is to sit and talk with other
people and kind of discuss these perspectives and obviously
talmud is. Meant to be studied in a group.
So going Beyond this now. So those are kind of formal
similarities but let's look at sort of the content its stake in
the talmud ultimately. Well one of the fundamental
issues is how we should live how to live.
And for example, what it means to live according to the law of
God, right? When you apply that to the
particulars of your existence, same thing is true in the
platonic dialogues. The question of the best life.
If the good life that just life is front and center and and and
both the talmud and the dialogues are focused on law.
Now, law has a different meaning in the Greek context because
it's not revealed law and morality, right?
And the point of these texts is always to unite study in action
intellectual and moral virtue. It's not simply to be a scholar.
It's not simply to have the best understanding of the Torah,
right? You have to live Torah, it has
to translate has to translate into like it has to be.
Let me put it this way. One of the issues is how do you
internalize it? How do you take it into your
soul and how does it become an animating principle of your
life? Right?
And so it's also the case with Socrates, you know, His, the
active and contemplative lives are inseparable.
Socrates so Plato had this this Doctrine if you will of the
idea. So what are the ideas?
The ideas are the Eternal being and truth of a thing, right?
So the idea of justice is kind of the sort of pure concept of
justice. That one could either live up to
or fail to live up to, and Socrates is constantly trying to
live up to the ideas and that requires two things.
Thanks, right. It requires trying to
intellectually cognize the ideas to understand them to know them.
Now, this is unfortunately, a process that one can never be
certain about, right? So Socrates is constantly
inquiring and but he's but he always has humility.
He's always ready to say. Here's here's the way I look at
this, but if someone else has a better idea, I'm ready to learn
from you. So the, there is doubt, On the
way up to the idea, right? You know, and we might compare
that to have we understood Torah correctly, right?
Have we understood what this means?
What this book means and then it's not just that you got to
bring it down into your life. And that of course, is a very
interesting problem because the way the Greeks would frame that
is to bring what, you know, into your life requires practical
wisdom. Requires sound judgment.
There's no in any given circumstance in life.
There's no, there's no cheating. There's no app that says like
the Justice app, you know, pushes this do this or do that,
right? You gotta have that and the
problem is, and I think this is the end of the talmud
understands this, that cannot be systematically, formulated right
yet. There's no, there's no sort of
guide book, write as much as As as the greatest Minds in the
world have thought about me. There's no guide book.
That tells you what you need to do right now.
In this particular context in this situation rather there is a
kind of ethos, right? A kind of well Eliezer berkovitz
calls it, the halacha conscience and another Rabbi named Max
kedusha know. I talk about in the book talks
about the value concepts of rabbinic This is sort of living
Torah, but you can't, you can't say, right?
You can't formulate in some kind of systematic way the knowledge
that is involved in, living up to Torah, living up to the law,
but you can show it and you can show it the medically.
You can show it through. My god of narrative, you can
show it in the platonic dialogues through these dramas
about Socrates. And let's Take Socrates, we see
him speaking. We see him acting, we see him
defying, the command of the Athenians, in the case, brought
against him to stop. Philosophizing, we see him in
jail, in a dialogue, called The Credo.
Refusing to escape from jail. Love that one?
Yeah. One of my favorite ones.
Yeah. And, and so, you know, this
itself provokes reflection why why won't you know, Socrates
believes that he was Unjustly convicted, but he's not going to
escape from jail and he has Arguments for because we have to
obey the law, correct. So this is a sort of interesting
paralyzed bigger than his life. Why is bigger than his life?
Exactly. So what I realized is that in
the narrative, I got about the sages.
And by the way, the reason I chose tiny 3 is it's loaded with
great stories. Yeah.
Lots of different stages. Different sages who are I'm
approaching the same matters often in, you know, sort of
diametrically opposed to waist is that these stories show what
it, what it means, not just to think like a sage, right?
Which we get was a lockpick disputation and so forth, but
what it means to be a sage what it means to live like a stage.
Now, here's another thought, going even deeper I realized
that the dialogues and the talmud are ultimately responses
to something like civilizational Crisis, okay?
So let's just take the platonic dialogues.
Here's Plato. He's born, in the round, 428 BCE
and the near the beginning of the Peloponnesian War.
The war goes on. It's a war between Athens and
her allies and Sparta, they're called the peloponnesians. 04
BC. The Spartans are finally
Victorious and they set up a puppet government in Athens.
And unfortunately, by the way, run by some of Plato's
relatives, that's a whole interesting story because Plato
was invited to join the regime. And then he said, you know, I
thought they were going to restore the city to Justice and
so forth. And incidentally, his view was
that the Athenian democracy, which was a direct democracy and
kind of he regarded that She was having made tremendous mistakes
as having been that greedy for wealth and power, and the people
were like, yes, let's do crazy. Things like send our whole maybe
over to Sicily and Conquer. These cities and will do all
this. And they failed miserably and
Plato had a kind of aristocratic attitude and he thought.
Now we got to have, you know, an aristocratic regime and restore
it to the city, to its health. And then he realizes, he writes
in the famous document, called the seventh letter.
Then I realized that the old regime Was it was a thing of
gold compared to this one, right?
And he withdrew those guys prosecuted.
Those guys persecuted Socrates, they forbid him to philosophize.
And, and, and then ultimately, when they were overthrown, this
group of oligarchs known as the thirty tyrants, Socrates was
prosecuted by the restored, democracy for various reasons
that I won't go into. But and then so Plato's teacher
is then put to death. And by the way, all the students
applied are regarded him as the most Just the most truthful, the
most brilliant man you know they had ever met xenophon another
student of Socrates talks about him this way and so you know if
I had been played up I thought about this I would probably just
you know become a complete cynic and nihilist and you know
Retreat and just you but his response is I'm going to write
35 dialogues, I'm going to write 35 Alex and those diamonds are
going to be focused on sock. Ortiz in the life of Socrates,
they're going to be focused on the past.
So he's writing now in the 4th Century from Lankenau, Socrates
executed 399 and then Plato writes for the next thirty four
years. And they're going to, they're
going to sort of revive this world before it collapsed before
the city of Athens lost its autonomy before.
The great Socrates was killed before the end of everything.
Great, the the fifth century had aeschylus and Sophocles and
euripides and Themistocles in thucydides and Pericles.
And, you know, and Socrates and so forth.
That was all swept away. That was the kind of golden age
Swept Away. So what's he doing?
He wants us to internalize the past.
He wants us to, to, to well, you know what he does, is he
produces a curriculum, a new curriculum for a broken age,
right? And and sort of single-handedly,
you know, I don't know if there was success in Athens.
Exactly, although Plato did teach Aristotle and then
Aristotle, by the way, had a very famous His student, who did
not become a philosopher, that was Alexander the Great.
So, you know, things kind of went awry a little bit there but
but to to produce a a curriculum in the examined life, that would
restore some kind of Health to the city of Athens.
Talmud is even greater success, right?
So that's the destruction of the second temple.
Yeah no locus of contact with God.
No Priest, No sacrifice, no profits, no profits.
What are you gonna do? And rabbinic Judaism is reborn
and it is reborn as we know, right?
We you know, we get the mishnah, we get the gemara and and those
tax I mean the Babylonian talmud 2.5 million words right?
That Jerusalem talmud what is it a million words something like
this? These I contend are also
curricula. To form.
These are formative texts that are trying to establish
attitudes and virtues in The Souls of their readers and to
orient them toward Health and Justice and goodness.
And you know to produce flourishing communities and so
forth. So, I think that there's,
there's a sense of, I mean, I've always, you know, to me, The
rabbinic response to Judy like the rabbinic response to the
crisis of the second temple. He is the most evident proof of
the fecundity, the fruitfulness of the Jewish tradition, you
know, to, to be able to, to look at a world and say, our world
has collapsed, it is fractured the things we depended on are
gone. Now, what are we going to do?
There's a guy named rosenstock, pussy, who is 20th century
intellectual and he said something like, A citizen is a
person who if the need arises can reinvent civilization,
right? Like that's the highest level
and I think Plato and the rabbi's engaged in that exactly,
that kind of reinvention. So this is extremely
interesting. Now, Let me go a little further
here. The dialogues and the town woods
and they and the talmud look to the past but they present new
models, new, a new kinds of Heroes running.
So you know, there's a track day, there's a little story in
the talmud where Joshua and maybe more than one story, who's
the great military hero. Right is represented as kind of,
you know, why you Shiva buffer, he's kind of turned into this,
this student of Torah. So we had our, you know, we had
our Joshua's, we had our great Patriarchs, we had these are,
these are, these are very successful people, you know,
Abraham. He's a warrior.
He knows how to make money. He's you know, he's got it.
All right. Now, the new hero is the rabbi
In the Greek tradition, who are the heroes, Achilles Warriors,
right? Here's he's the top Socrates in
the apology, which is the, which is the dialogue of his trial.
Implicitly Compares himself. Not he explicitly Compares
himself to Achilles. He's a new Achilles.
What kind of warrior is, he is philosophical Warrior, right?
So that's very interesting. And then what I really realized
and this this has to Do now with my study of Play-Doh is that
there is a sense to use strauss's terms in which Athens
can be filed at the heart of Jerusalem.
And Jerusalem can be found at the heart of Athens.
Now, what do I mean by that? The talmud and the platonic
dialogues Express a certain tension between rational inquiry
and Faith, right? Or between what can be known
through rational discussion and so forth.
And, and these Mysteries that are sort of beyond the Ken of
those who are engaging in this rational inquiry.
There's a great book by Menachem fish called rational rabbis.
And in fact, it's funny because as introductions like 40 pages
long, he's comparing the talmudic rabbis He's talking
about Karl Popper. Karl Popper was a logician i
philosopher of science, right? Who sort of developed this idea
of falsifiability poppers claim is that you can't you can't
prove a theory, like, let's say, you know, you can't prove the
law of gravity, you can formulate the law of gravity and
then you can conduct experiments that would falsify your
understanding of the law of gravity.
So, for example, the law of gravity is indicates that, you
know, if I let go of this pain, it's going to fall, right?
Well, that did not falsify my little experiment.
If you're listening on the podcast, I dropped the pen and
it fell into my hand. So so far the law of gravity is
not been falsified. So popper, lays out a kind of
whole method of scientific inquiry and the not from fission
is book on wrestlerette. My suggest that the rabbi's are
essentially sort of Pop herion Enquirer strike who sort of
formulate hypotheses and then they see if they can explain the
evidence and then if they find evidence that falsifies that
they change the hypotheses So we know that the that the talmudic
rabbis are irrational, what about Socrates that?
Here's something I take seriously and there is a school
of thought of certainly some Strauss Ian's that thinks it's
all ironic and so forth. But if you read the apology,
Socrates tells the following Story.
How did I begin philosophizing? Well, I had a friend and the
friend went to the Oracle of Delphi.
Now, what is an oracle of Oracle is a location where the gods
speak, right? And it's a temple at usually,
right? And there are priestesses and
the case of delfi and they interpret certain signs and they
tell you what the gods answer is so so his friend Kyra fun goes
to the oracle and he asked the Oracle, is there any one wiser
than Socrates and the Oracle answers with the shortest
Revelation? I want to say in history and the
answer is no. And here's what Socrates says,
he says this really puzzled me because I look into my soul and
I say, I'm not wise, right? But, and here's the faith part.
I know that the Oracle cannot have uttered a falsehood Here's
his principal, his principle is the gods.
Why can't they ever fall to fall asleep?
Because I did. That would mean they're ignorant
and the gods are not ignorant. Or they're liars and the gods
are not Liars. Now, let me pause here for a
second in the Greek tradition in The Iliad, for example, in the
Odyssey, the gods lie, all the time, all the time.
They take a different shape, they're totally undependable.
They will lie for example to get revenge on somebody.
They want to see you know, come to grief But you're Socrates.
And he has this notion. No, no they got.
It's not sanctioned for the gods to other falsehoods, so I have
to take this seriously. Is there an argument?
No, He just asserts it. By the way, in other domains
goes against his general principles.
Not ask not not furthering, not furthering the idea.
Just kind of. Yeah, that's it.
Got to take it. Seriously.
Gotta take a serious. Find it anywhere in in Socrates
besides there. Yeah, exactly.
So there it is. And he says, so, that's so then
I thought, well, you know what I'm going to do and this is very
interesting. I'm gonna go find someone who's
wiser than me, and I'm going to bring him back to the Oracle and
I'm going to say, you told me that I was the wisest but this
guy's wiser. Now, incidentally, some people
have said, this shows, he's here religious, right?
Because he wants to show that the gods have lied or they're
ignorant on. The contrary Socrates was to
engage in a Socratic conversation with the gods, this
is another connection with Talbot.
Incidentally, being one of the great things about town but are
the interactions between God's God in human beings, it's just
amazing. And by the way, God has a sense
of humor which is fantastic but really it's absolutely
fantastic. So, you know, you know, and, and
it's, it's really lovely. And and in fact, we see, for
example, in the oven of off nice story which I might talk about
later. There's a point at which a rabbi
stands up to God. And says, by the way, you don't
really have a role in this conversation, right?
You have spoken but but you know, let us sort this out,
right? Which is really you might say
almost, it's impertinent, you know, So, so that's one of the
cool things so. So then I realized like, okay,
If this is correct, then the greatest philosopher like
Socrates is regarded as one of if not the greatest philosophers
in history, right? Certainly the first philosopher
as as Cicero rights to bring philosophy down from the
heavens, because before Socrates, by the way, they have
worked with called pre-socratic philosophers, and their
questions were very like, where did everything come from?
That it come from water, that it come from fire, what are things
made of a sort of physical physicist question.
Socrates brought philosophy down started inquiring about good and
bad and just and unjust and sofa brought it into the cities of
Menace as Cicero says, so here's this original philosopher.
And it is. Philosophizing, is rooted in
faith? I forgot to finish the story.
He goes around and he says he's talking to people.
He realizes these guys don't know what they're talking about,
because they think they're wise, but they're not. so I am wiser
just by this little bit because I know I'm not wise But it's
that Oracle at Delphi sets him off on his life which is really,
you could sum it up as an attempt to understand what is
wisdom and who is Socrates? Who am I?
And what does it mean to be wise?
And so, and so he said, yeah, go ahead.
I'm just going to say that the Oracle of Delphi.
I remember my first dialogue that I read from Plato's apology
my Rabbi Rabbi my roof. I said, I wanted to, I want to
learn play. Don't he's like if you wanna
learn Petty, gotta start with apology.
It's sort of an intro as you as you.
You just mentioned, right? It's really sets up all the rest
of the dialogues. In terms of, you know, is
motivation and what is wisdom and all that.
And I remember, I got up to the delphic Oracle and I was
completely shocked. I was totally, I was like, I was
telling what like, huh, it just it didn't it kind of came out of
nowhere and especially for a new reader.
So you bringing that in, is it just brought me back to when I
first read it and how surprised I was at that and I thought it
was maybe sarcastic. I thought maybe Like, you know,
I didn't know what to do with it at the time, it was sort of
like, whoa, you know what I mean?
Like, how did we get to this spiritual event, right?
With Socrates the philosopher, and you just brought that up.
So, I just the whole thing, just kind of when we played it, in my
mind, when you were talking about that and you were
mentioning. So, you're you're using that to
show that there's there is There's a spiritual element
right there is a Jerusalem element, right?
That is really like the the, the Catalyst and the force behind
everything that Socrates Advanced.
Yeah. You know I really like your
Telling me that story about reading the apology Ben tzion
because, you know, it's funny. I mean, I thought the apology a
million times and and students don't really notice that, right?
Well, for a good, five minutes, I was like wait, which is, which
is absolutely great because, you know, so I mean here I am, I'm
sort of saturating Greek philosophy every tell him.
And I'm like, what's going on here?
Right? And then your saturated,
obviously, you know, a lot more time with it.
I know I'm sure and, you know, you come from the religious
background you recently. What's going on here?
This is, this is really interesting, you know, let me
say a little bit more about this too.
It's not the only place. So Socrates was actually put on
trial in part because he had he kept talking about this what he
called I'm audience. Oh, a diamond that sometimes
it's translated in English demon but that gives a kind of -
right. Because we know that demons, you
know, there's, you know, haunted and so forth, but really it's a
word that means like a sort of intermediate.
It deity. A kind of, let's say, a Lesser
God, that communicates to human beings.
But it's it's a Divine voice and Socrates talks about his Divine
voice. In fact, he talks about in the
apology. He says, you know, well, once
he's convicted and sentenced to death, he says, actually this
wasn't so bad because my died money on my little Divine voice
hasn't spoken to me at this time.
And and because usually a talks to me if something's going
Right? And it didn't also there's a
dialect called the theaetetus for Socrates is talking to young
men named the Adidas and Socrates explains his unusual
activity of like, what, what do I do as a philosopher?
He Compares himself as to a midwife of souls.
I talk to people and I help them to give birth to some
understanding, right? I sort of tease that out of
them. They you know, young people are
pregnant with ideas but they don't know how to articulate
them and I help them too. Do that.
And he says the God has commanded me to do that right
now. Again, there's so many places in
the dialogues where we hear this kind of stuff that I don't, it
just, it would be foolish, frankly.
To rule them out, you know, one has to begin by taking them
seriously. And I began that way and never
end it right. I continue to take it.
Seriously. Here's a little problem, though.
in the Jewish tradition, we know who God is We learned from the
beginning, the first words of the Bible we get the whole story
and then we get all the way into Exodus and then finally we have
the giving of the law and so forth but you know it but God
has established God's Bona fides, right?
You know like what why should you listen to this law, right?
Well I'm the guy who created the universe and so forth.
Socrates is very interesting and I don't know if you noticed this
Mencia in the apology. He never names the god.
True. Now, some people say well it's
Apollo because the Oracle of Delphi is the Oracle of Apollo,
the temple will pop, but in the Republic, he talks about and
this is also a part of this effort to sort of clean up,
Greek religion. There's in the end of the second
book of the Republic. He lays down some of the
theological principles. In fact, the very first
occurrence in history. As far as we know of the word
fail logia which literally means speech about the gods.
The Cure's in the Republic Socrates says, let me give you a
theologia, if you all right, and he lays out certain principles,
the gods, don't lie, they don't change shape.
We already saw that from the apology, right?
And, and so, he lays this out, but what happens in that context
and elsewhere, as he switches from singular to plural, the god
of gods, why does he do this? My own intuition is because he
doesn't know whether they're one or many, what does he know about
the gods? You see, you could read Homer.
And, you know, it's polytheism and you get their names and so
forth. But by the way, the Greek
historian. Herodotus rip very tellingly
rights at one point. You know, we didn't even know
who the gods were what they did until Homer, told us, 400 years
ago, we just sort of a way of saying, like, they're made up.
You know, I mean, one could interpret it that way, but
Socrates is a humble man, he doesn't know.
But look at it, he doesn't know if there's one God or many, but
he knows they don't lie, they tell the truth, and when they
speak, you better listen to him. He knows what the characteristic
of a god should be yes in our minds.
That doesn't mean that he knows God or that he can speak of the
God but he could Speak of the Gods in terms of what, should
what, what should be their characteristics?
Yes. And one can sort of put it this
way, right without further information because this, of
course, is the massive difference between the Greek
tradition and the hebraic tradition.
There's no Revelation, right? You're in the dark.
So, so, how to Socrates proceed? He's, you might sort of put it
this way. What kind of being is worthy to
be worshiped? Exactly. no, not by the way,
God's who lie or steal, or commit adultery and all these
horrible things, that think that think that the Greek gods do But
Gods, who are, who are good and just, and in fact, Socrates
presents them almost as models for the philosophical life,
right? To be a God is to do what is
right, because it is right, right?
And then other words, they are governed by reason, you know and
in the in the style of euthyphro, we might talk about
it's a discussion of piety and Socrates basically says, Is
something Pious just because God says it is, right?
Yeah. Just the kind which is a kind of
volunteerism right now with the will of the God make something
Pious, right? So what do we mean by piety and
Greek religion? Well, if we just look at the at
the at the at the myths and the stories, if Zeus tells you to do
something, You better do it. Why?
Because you said it, I often put it this way.
Zeus is a Godfather. Great.
He's awesome. By the way, you know, you know
you know he's often referred to as the father.
He's got father right now. That perspective is not a very
Humane one, it doesn't sort of say a lot about human dignity,
right? Why should I do this?
Because you said so Incidentally, that's what Greek
prophecy is to Greek dividers. You know, they'll cut open an
animal or look at how a bird flies and had various
techniques. And they tell you, for example,
before a battle, every time they agreed, we're going to fight a
battle, they'd have their diviner come out, and they
looking at the kidneys too big or something, right?
You know, whatever the technique is at, we shouldn't fight today,
it's not auspicious. The gods are not behind us and
you don't question it. Socrates hates this.
He's something Pious because the God says in his word, is the
god, say something is pious because it's Pious, right?
Exactly. We can locate the exact argument
regarding its fault Commandments.
That's the exact argument, where maimonides would ve mately
suggest that that it is a Mitzvah is to be done because it
is correct to do it. Not?
Because just because it was commanded, but it was commanded.
Cuz there's a rational basis for it to be commended to us.
Yeah, and you know, this is really important today.
I mean, you know, The former Pope Benedict died recently, and
there's been some good articles about him and he was a voice
within the within the Catholic tradition of Reason in
particular he had strong criticisms of Islam because much
of Islam anyway or much the Islamic world.
It's very voluntaristic, right? I mean you know it's submit to
the will of God and no questioning.
Exactly. Exactly.
And you know, there are also versions Within Gianna t mean
long ago made the connection between Calvinism and Islam you
know, Calvin is Calvin teaches that there's a doctrine of
double predestination from eternity.
God has for God's own reasons decided that a few human beings
will be saved. And the vast majority will be
damned, right? And that's just the way it is
and we don't know why. I mean that's just so this is
complete kind of volunteerism. Incidentally I would say
willfulness is a huge problem in the world today and those like
maimonides and others who wish to restore it Benedict, an
understanding of reason right of our rational, capabilities to
grasp what God has commanded or is this is extremely important.
So so yeah. So let me say Less thing about
the connection and we can maybe talk about some specifics in
the, in the, in the talmud. Um, Another thing I noticed and
that is that it looks to me like and we can debate and discuss
this, it looks to me like the talmud is what Leo Strauss would
call or that the talmud as a text incorporates, what?
Leo Strauss would call esotericism.
Let me explain by that. So esotericism from the Stasi
and point of view is saying different things.
Things to different audiences. Okay?
And it's gotten a bad reputation because the critics want to see
it as like a secret teaching that's available.
Only to a select few, who understand what the author is
really doing beneath the surface but that's not it at all.
I would suggest it's a recognition that different
audiences have different needs and need to be met at different
places. We all Is that cetera system,
you know, in the sense that we tailor, what we say to the
person were speaking to and to the occasion, sort of silly
example, right? But let's say you have a great
aunt who loves to wear ugly hats, and she comes in with your
ugly hat and she asks you, if your her hat looks good.
What do you say? You know, you don't say, you
know, and Shelly, let me just lay it on the line here.
You've always worn ugly, hats and super no, you don't do that.
Now, in what sense would and I'll set aside the platonic
dogs, but in what sense would the town would be esoteric?
Because it connects and this is a very interesting question.
It has both a traditionalist level and a kind of anti
traditionalist level. So the traditionalist level is
God, gave the world a lot of Moses at Sinai.
And what we're trying to do at this late date is to reconstruct
what that law was, right? It's sort of gotten corrupted,
over the years. My example is somebody gives you
full Bowl brimming of water and you hand it to the next day,
some water spills out and so forth.
You keep asking The up and that's the source of the debates
between the house of Hillel in the house of shimei and so
forth. And we're reconstructing.
What we know is authoritative and true because it was given to
Moses by God or maybe it's possible for there to be new
understandings and new insights as we move forward.
And there's a kind of anti traditionalists trained in the
talmud as well where it suggested that.
You know, the road from Sinai isn't completely paved but we
can sort of extend it further. And so I see this as a kind of
way of giving readers what they need right.
And by the way, the Telma doesn't decide this question, it
just presents two perspectives. So that's I think actually think
go ahead. Interesting.
Because the so so the only view the ghonim right?
They They took the former and said it was basically, there was
stuff that got like, you know, corrupted and to reconstruct
maimonides though believes that essential within Moses giving
over the oral law was also certain principles that the
rabbi's with authority can actually create new with, they
can create new laws. I want to say there are details
in the laws. May be new laws, wrong word, but
there are details. Let's say unexplained details.
Right? That are kind of left to the to
the, to the stages to, by using certain methods of the Kaaba
home are Cloud broad practical using those given given
principles. They can actually create a new
one that's actually meant to be so it's kind of both sides of
the coin. Are actually being played out
over there. Right there are there's that
tradition that got kind of maybe somewhat corrupted the needs to
be reconstructed but a Along with that right maimonides also
inserts the fact that yeah the rabbis did have certain
authority to fill in details right?
Or even create new Customs or what not based on you know their
times. So that's just interesting
because there's actually a little playoff that goes on you
know based on what based off of what you said between the grown
even the wrong number. Yeah and if you know what's
interesting too is the so here's another comparison with Socrates
You know, he is accused of the actual charges that were brought
against him at his trial, were not acknowledging.
The gods of Athens, sort of not sort of the Greek word is no
mids enemies like customarily acknowledging, like not thick,
not in accordance with custom acknowledging, the Gods in the
customary way, but introducing new deities.
Okay, I already pointed out. He's critical of the Greek gods.
Right? And he presents a picture of the
Gods that's quite different from what you read in Homer, for
example. But there's another sense in
which Socrates is super traditional he embraced.
So in Homer, there's a fundamental contradiction.
If you read The Odyssey, there's a passage do.
Odysseus has gone home and he's in Disguise and he's being
mistreated by the men who have invaded his house and are trying
to marry his wife. And and there's a discussion
about somebody says, oh and he He's dressed as a beggar and and
one of these suitors of his wife, there's a hundred eight of
them in the house has like thrown a stool at him, and
they're berating Odysseus, they don't know what.
So Casillas. And somebody says, don't you
know that the gods wander through the cities of men,
observing our deeds, and seeing whether we're just or unjust and
in fact, ultimately Justice is done.
And with the aid of Athena Odysseus defeats the suitors.
He kills them all. You know?
And and and he achieves victory. And we see this elsewhere in the
Greek myths, that we got these two contradictory views, Zeus
commits, you know, all kinds of crimes and adultery and so
forth, but he's also an agent of Justice.
Well, Socrates grabs onto that gods are agents of Justice.
He holds to the idea that customer ideals of filial piety,
right? You, you respect your father's,
you respect. And, and by the way, of course,
there's the this idea. Of fundamental respect for Law
and so, you know, and as I said, he he believes that what the
Oracle said that the Oracle is a site of contact with the Divine.
So there's a kind of interesting tension between these things and
I think that's another point of connection with the talmud
wonderful wonderful incredible. For the second segment, what we
would like to do is to have you go into the examples that you
provide in your book which is Honea Miguel, which is a story
that you zoom in on to bring to life these ideas that you were
mentioning before in the previous segment and you said 40
with apology if you can, if you can sort of give us an overview
and kind of get into that too. Yeah, sure thanks.
So one of the stories that I talked about, which will be
familiar to your listeners, is the start story of
honi-ha-magel, a honi the circle drawer and the story occurs
before the rabbinic period, during the time of the
Sanhedrin, there is the head of the Sanhedrin is a guy named
Shimon been shot off. And Whose Senate who's an
important stage who is devoted to the law to following the law
and you know there's actually a famous story about Shimon.
He sees a guy go into a house with a knife.
The guy comes out of the house. Two minutes later, covered with
blood, the knife is covered with blood.
He goes in the house, he finds someone dead.
He's been stabbed. But what can Shimon do?
Because the law is, you got to have two witnesses to a crime,
and I could multiply examples, but, you know, he's sort of very
rational rationalistic. This is what the law does.
We abide by the law. He also is, he's strictly
devoted to the law, but he also, It has a kind of Proto rabbinic
understanding. How do you earn Merit?
You earn Merit through study, right?
You earn Merit through this, you know, Devotion to unpacking law,
and debating and understanding it.
Now this onee character doesn't quite fit that Paradigm and I
should I should back up because this is in the context of a
discussion and Tawny which raises questions about, how can
we tell when Thing is a curse or a blessing.
How can we tell who is deserving?
And who is not? These are sort of General issues
in the air. And the context here is there's
a drought droughts going out, address going on.
The rabbi's have prayed, they Pray For Rain a natural way to
interpret. This is that, you know, God is
punishing the people because of some Perhaps unknown or
unspecified sin and God won't bring rain because, of course we
read over and over again in Hebrew scriptures that, you
know, if you you know, walk in my ways that here the law and so
forth. They're going to get rain,
you're gonna get food and otherwise know.
So the story is told in various ways is told him to Mission as
told him the gemara in one case I think the disciples come to
honi because he's got these disciples and in another case
the I think the people come to directly, but in any case, They
know that honi has the capacity to he's got some kind of direct
line to God and you can sort of work, what looks like Miracles.
And by the way Miracles is another big big theme in this
section of time neat which is a real interest to rabbinic
Judaism because Miracles are these you know, unforeseen
interventions into sort of the rational order of the world and
it presents a problem. Like why would there be
miracles? For example, if there are
Miracles is God, is that a sort of implicit admission that the
world wasn't set up right at the beginning.
You know, that there has to be this intervention at this point.
So, how do I understand? Miracles are so that's a whole
nother set of issues. But anyway, only comes in And he
begins behaving in a very strange way.
He draws a circle around himself and he talks directly to God and
he says I'm not going to leave this circle until you give me
rain. Like what?
And sure enough little drop start coming down.
Tiny little Mists not very much, you know.
And then Holy says, I didn't ask for this mr.
Crane and what rain? And then the rabbi's report, you
know, drops like the size of an orange, start coming down, I
mean, they're just huge, I just inundated right?
And meanwhile, the disciples are the people are standing there
looking on and they're like, and therefore, they're depicted.
By the way, is fearful children fearful children, in fact, they
refer to a phony as well actually, think, in the first
story, it's actually children who go to him and say my father.
My father, bring rain and Tony says something like.
Like these kids don't understand, you know, that it's
the Father in Heaven who brings rain, not me, right?
But they sort of treat him as this, and there's a suggestion
throughout that which he sort of confirms and you know what he
says that that The people don't, you know, that they're that
they're very childish, and they're sort of incapable of
thinking, even sort of thinking for themselves.
So, anyway, all this rain comes down and, and people freak out
there, like, oh now we're going to, you know, we're going to
drown right and own. He's like, it's sort of
Goldilocks story, right? He's like, I didn't ask for a
flood, you know? So and then the right amount of
rain comes right. Now she won't been shut off.
Has been watching all this. and he says, to him something like
If you weren't honi, I would decree a ban on you.
And what does that mean? It's sort of expresses this
perplexity. Because here's Coney, he's not a
sage, the gemara, by the waist, for the tries to turn him into a
sage. But he's, he's not a sage.
He's got some special relationship to God.
He actually says, at one point that to God, he's like a son of
his house, right? And he behaves in a way that is
very unfair. Inning, according to she wants
lights and to say, if you were holding a decree, a ban on you.
And by the way, Shimon is well known.
This is part of his rationalism for having executed, like, 80
witches in Ashkelon. He doesn't like, you know, he's
very suspicious of people who look like miracle workers or
harnessing, you know, mysterious powers and so forth.
He's no friend of mysterious Powers.
So when he says, I would decree a ban on you like How far does
that go? I mean this is a dangerous thing
but then he says, if you weren't honi and I think what that means
is like you got results, right? And ultimately, I have to
acknowledge, I'm expanding the duck.
He's stuck. Yeah, he's stuck.
Yeah. But he didn't get any.
Also didn't get the right amount.
That's the thing eventually? Yeah.
Eventually but it took time it's not like a right right right.
So so I mean I think it's an acknowledgement that I could
sort of sum it up this way. You have a special relationship
to God that I do not exactly comprehend because Shima goes on
and says you behave like a small child, you behave like a small
child here, you know, one doesn't talk to God this way.
One doesn't make demands this way.
And, you know, he's fundamentally perplexed about
what to do about this. Because it challenges his entire
rational framework. He represents a text based
system of law, that's rational and teachable.
As I said, there are other rabbis who are associated with
the capacity. For example, Rabbi Eliezer in
the oven of off my story, just to give one example, who has
some kind of capacity, like liquid has the ear of god, let's
say, and and can perform certain sorts of miraculous actions but
Rabbi Eliezer has his powers because he is the best student
of Torah, you know, around like he has earned that Merit he has
proven Pony, has not Why is this guy who's so important and who
doesn't have any of the capabilities that you would
ordinarily associate with what we believe produces married in
the eyes of God? Remember I said it who is
meritorious and it was not so you kind of shakes up, she moans
worldview. Why is this the case?
Yeah, you have an interesting footnote just before you go on
with this because you're going to take it to a lot of places
that I wanted to just this tension that you mentioned.
You bring Safari Safari. I don't know how to mention his
name. What's who's that?
Guy's to fry? Which basically wants to put
honi into the plastic Camp. Not when we say custody
agreement, the consider Michonne him of the talmud.
And he has an interesting. I was just hoping you can just
like, tell a little bit about that.
Little that. Yeah, what you do?
You happen to have that footnote?
Yeah, it's page 82. Footnote 11.
All right, I'm going to have to read reacquaint myself, here,
surprises. Yeah.
So we've got these acetic care
asthmatics. I guess this is a ver eyes for
age of surprise phrase, and so these are these kind of miracle
workers at kind of Hiatus. Yes, yes they are.
They are pietists who valued Deeds more than study and who's
actually Actions. Displayed confidence in
Providence and in the Salvation route is all day for, right,
behavior, and even in the Miracles, which were to be
revealed to them, according to stir-fry.
So, phony is sort of a representative of this group.
And what is suggested here is that the story reflects this
uneasy relationship between these acetic karris Mattox and
these pharisaic sages like Shimon Ben chetta, what's
Justin? Yeah.
That's really interesting because in Yeshiva it's no one
really No one really puts like a barrier between the cinema
showed him in the sages. They're kind of just put all
together in one lump. It's just like, you know, maybe
a more devotional expect within the sages or well, you mentioned
that you mentioned that they're good.
Morrow, tries to make Coney into kind of a rabbi but he's not so
no. Yeah, that would actually go
against what he's saying here. But I think that you mention in
your book that the gemara is when the Tom when the when the
gemara interjects within the story it's framing it.
A little It differently than the mishnah.
So, yes, yeah. Okay.
So you'll yeah, yeah. So so, I mean, so first, a
couple things to notice here, The talmud which I, you know I
think it's fair to say that the general attitude of the talmud
is on the side of Shimon you know because you know it there
are there are principles of interpretation, there are
principles of debate, there's principles of discussion, we see
constant dispute and interpretation and argumentation
over halacha practices. But what's amazing is that it
includes this story, right? When I shouldn't say what's
amazing about the talmud is include the sir.
The talmud includes these kinds of stories all the time.
What I mean by these kinds of stories stories that call into
question their own institution, their own institutions, their
own presuppositions and, you know, what's the point of doing
that? Well, they, these kinds of
stories do a couple of things. One thing is Shimon is reminded
in the reader is reminded that there is you know to quote ham
There's more in Heaven and Earth than are dreamt of in your
philosophy, right? That there are limitations to
the human understanding, one of the things I talk about in my
book and I've got this wonderful episode of Eleazar and the ugly
man, right? He's riding along On an ass.
And and he's, you know, he's thinks that oh, I'm so great.
I'm a talmudic scholar and so forth and runs into an ugly man.
And he says, ours, is everyone from your village?
This likely, you know, and the ugly man says, I don't know, why
don't you go ask my maker? Why don't you ask the guy who
made me write and it sort of shocks him?
Right. He actually learns Torah from
this guy, right? This Anonymous, man, and he's
brought up short, he's like, there's an induced humility.
In this case, this is one things about Judaism, by the way, I
mean it's, you know, the same the same Bible that lays out
very clearly, right? You adhere to the law, you walk
in my ways and so forth. You're going to get rain to get
food. It's going to be and not if not
not. Has the Book of Job.
I mean this is really amazing that like because so Judaism has
I would call this a philosophical element, right?
In other words. Never forget.
That you are a human being and that is smart as you are.
And as learned as you are, you have to be humble because you
cannot understand everything at the same time.
Of course, the talmud celebrates, you know, the
Majesty of intellect, right? So I'm thinking of Solavei
chicks, famous article, you know, majesty and humility.
And there's something like that in Socrates too.
By the way because Socrates is going around and saying and this
is very paradoxical. I am the wisest human being You
know why? Because I know that I'm not
wise. And so is he humbler is the
Arrogant. You know this very interesting.
Paradox is Kierkegaard says somewhere.
Incidentally, that the Paradox is the passion of thought and a
thinker without a paradox is like a lover without passion.
And I think that's right. I think that applies to Judaism.
I think it applies to Plato. It's these contradictions.
So here's another contradiction that you mentioned been sealed.
The gemara turns, honey into a rabbi and finished the later
part of the story, which is really sort of tragic.
It goes on to talk about honi and you almost might say this is
not quite fair if I were going to put it really strongly and
from the point of view of a may be excessively critical person,
I'd say the camargue gets its revenge on homey because because
what happens is, and and it gets us revenge on phony in a way
that shows that He's not. Like he doesn't lead anywhere,
he's not. He's well, first of all, he's an
isolated guy, right? Here's this phony.
He doesn't fit into the framework of Shimon.
And I think the circle around him kind of almost is a
suggestion of how cutoff he is because, you know, how do you
hit? So, here's a question, how can a
person whose Excellence, if you will or whose power.
Consistent a special relationship with God which
nobody can quite understand, have any Offspring intellectual
last week, and is there a future for that kind of person right
now, the thing is in rabbinic Judaism, there's always a future
because you have houses of study and you have traditions and
people can learn and that it can become expert in these things
and they can become rabbis, and they can pass it on from their
teacher to the teacher, the next teacher.
How do you teach Miracle working?
If you see what I'm saying, you don't.
So the gemara does a couple things.
It turns in into a sage maybe because it's a little bit
uncomfortable with him. Maybe there's an irony here, I'm
not sure what but phony, it says he always worried about this
verse that in the Bible. About comparing I think
comparing the Exile in Babylonia to 70 years of sleep, right?
Is like, how could you sleep for 70 years and He's sort of
miraculously put to sleep for 70 years.
Oh, but before that, he, he runs into a guy who's planning a
carob tree and he's like, why are you planning a carob tree?
You know, the fruit from this tree, it takes decades to get
anything to eat from it. Kara was a very big source of
nutrition and you know, ancient Palestine.
It it's I mean, I'm not sure it's particularly good but it's
it was a main source of food. And the guy says, yeah, I'm not
going to eat it. But my grandchildren will Which
sort of suggests that homey, kind of doesn't understand
right? The Dora Dora.
I mean you got future Generations.
You need to he's in. This is what in the world in a
sense? Yes.
And so he falls asleep for 70
years and he wakes up and he goes to the beit midrash, right?
And they're talking about Coney. Hey there like, you know, in the
days of Honey with this would all be clear.
He would explain everything and so forth which of course is
bizarre because, you know, No, according to mishnah like that.
He's not a sage he doesn't, you know, so so phone.
He's like I'm horny and they don't believe him.
Like, he's just, he's sort of, you know, cut off and then he
dies, right? So, what's going on here?
The suggestion is. That Cody is you know you sort
of a one-off there isn't a future.
He's not going to make like like okay they'll talk about maybe
you know, his decisions and so forth.
But there's a sort of a sad end note here, which is that Unlike
these rabbis Coney is not there's no kind of spiritual
fruitfulness that's going to endure and inform the lives of
later. People at least that's sort of
how I look at it. It's very it's very similar to
the story of Elijah eliyahu hanavi in the Torah where he he
is. This Zealot zealous person for
God and he's, you know, going by the book.
But Essentially his miracles are not, he's being told by the
king. Your this is going to last for a
little bit of time here, this this magic that you're doing,
whatever it is it's just going to impact the people for a very
short period of time and at the end God critiques him and says
this this approach that you have of like theatrics and everything
like that. It's it's not going to work.
You need to use a cold in my mind that Chi, you need to use a
like a stock soft still voice and that, and that something
that can be passed on basically an event in eventually, he's
replaced. By Alicia who basically fixes
all the mistakes that LEL makes and he's kind of seen as like a
cautionary tale. Ellie, I want to be where as you
know citrusy kind of the same thing with with Coney Coney is
this you know Miracle Worker. Who cannot?
It's not sustainable for the future.
It's not going to be passed on. Yeah that's right.
And you know so this actually sort of points in a couple of
directions. I mean I see something similar.
Blur going on in the story of the oven of Asana which your
listeners probably know a lot about.
But basically the I'll just very briefly say and it's a fantastic
story. The rabbi's at the rabbinical
Academy at yavne. Are debating the purity of an
oven. And Rabbi Eliezer who, by the
way the stories about Eleazar are just like this guy was the
top guy. I mean, he, you know, and
actually one of the stories that can remember, where is drawn
from his father. Didn't want him to study his
father was a rich man and he, and he goes, and he studies and,
and then he sort of become, you know, and then his father comes
to Jerusalem to visit him and he find his father finds out.
Oh, this guy is respected by all the.
People. And, you know, he's regarded as
a great sage and so on into the front, I think they moved him to
the front so that his father can see him with all the rich
people. Yes.
Right. Right.
They kind of set it up for that. Yeah.
And so then and so then so then the father who had disinherited
him was like I'm going to you know, you're my guy, you know,
he sort of reconcile with him. I'm going to give you my
inheritance over and you know phonies like to sum up very
briefly. It's like well actually I don't
Need any of that, you know, I'm he sort of positions himself as
like, my real father is God, you know, the something like this,
another, the Zapata something. But anyway, so here's Eliezer,
he's the top guy and they're debating it and by the way it's
a very interesting argument. That Eleazar is making but his
side is actually quite dumb. Sword from a practical
perspective. It's, it's a good position
because the side of the rabbi's is that the oven that has been
Rippin rendered in pure is completely a and these communal
ovens were expensive and you'd have to like rebuild the whole
table and you'd have and Eliezer has position that like oven come
in these parts. And if one part is rendered in
pure, you could replace that. And so, it's less expensive and
sober, but the rabbi's they don't agree.
So Eleazar, it says he gave all the arguments of the world and
The way, they're probably really good arguments because he's the
top guy. He knows, you know, he's the
greatest talmudic scholar around and and finally Eleazar says,
let me show you. If my position is right, let the
carob tree jump in the carob tree jumps like 50 meters or
something and basically the rabbi's are like that's that's
irrelevant. We want an argument, you gave us
a miracle, how does your ability to perform that Miracle persuade
us of the correctness of your position?
Right? We're playing the the
intellectual game we are playing, is argumentation, you
make it opinion, you back it up with arguments.
You didn't back it up with arguments.
You backed it up with a miracle that's in effect what they're
saying. I think and then at some point
he's like Let The Stream flow backwards, stream flows
backwards, Let the study house walls fall and the walls out of
respect for Eliezer they fall halfway but they stopped because
they Which is actually really terrible because if they had
fallen, he would have killed all the other rabbis and maybe
himself. But anyway, so finally a bot,
coal comes a voice from God and says, why don't you agree with
Rabbi Eliezer? Because he's always right on
matters of Holocaust. And one of the rabbi's stands up
and says to God, it is not in heaven, which the rabbi's
interpret to mean you gave us the Torah.
We have our own system here where we examine the Torah.
We reflect we use all of our intelligent capabilities, to
understand what it means. And actually God, you're not
part of this debate. And then God, let it says that
Elijah went to God. And God said, my children have
bested me my children. This is the father-son that
children think now, what does this mean?
Well, it connects with Greek philosophy to because in
Aristotle's politics He says, if you have someone who is
absolutely outstanding in virtue, you either need to make
him king or you have to ostracize him, got to get rid of
them. And what their rabbis did there
is they didn't challenge The View that Eliezer was, right.
In fact, my own intuition is they probably thought he was
right? They just wanted to pick a fight
because if Eleazar is around and he's got this special sort of
connection with God, okay? What are the other rabbis doing?
They're just going to have to obey, whatever he thinks they're
completely irrelevant. So it's a way, the community
sort of stands up for its own existence, as a community of
rational interpretation and debate.
It stands up for itself almost, you might put it this way.
As long as Ellie ages around, we're just children compared to
him. But we want to engage in the
adult activity which all Jews are called to of thinking, for
themselves of studying, Torah of determining, the truth, height
of giving it to their best effort.
And if Eleazar is around or anybody like him we can't do
that. So there's a kind of rebellion I
sort of rationalist rebellion. And then by the way they
excommunicated Eleazar and all kinds of bad stuff happens
because he causes miracles to sort of get back at them.
But the same thing happens in with regard to Socrates, because
as I said, Socrates, has a special relationship with the
god in some way and the same questions arise that have to do
with Coney. Can Socrates, you know, is that
special relationship with God somehow involved in his ability
or inability to produce students?
There is let me connect it with honi this way, and then, I'll
stop in the phaedo, the dialogue, where Socrates dies,
he's been sentenced to death, and he's drinking Hemlock, which
is a horrible poison and his students begin crying.
And they say to him, Socrates, what are we going to do without
you? How will we philosophize?
What will we do? And I've always thought Socrates
must have been very disappointed at that because his whole effort
was to help people mature, be independent, thinkers be capable
of argumentation, and discourse and debate and philosophize for
themselves. And here they are like little
children saying, Without you we can't go on, right?
And there really is an interesting question.
By the way I mentioned, they wrote a book on Kierkegaard and
Socrates Kierkegaard basically has this critique of Socrates.
You know, the philosophic life can set you on the right path
and can help you to live. Well and so forth.
If your Socrates, if you are the kind of person who lives up to
his best understanding, if you have tremendous, Intelligence.
You figure things out on your own and you live up to your best
understanding and, you know, you put your thoughts into action.
There's no split between your speech and deed your integrated
whole human being wholesome, human being, but unfortunately
the rest of us aren't like Socrates.
So this question of the reproducibility of say a
Socratic, a good life through. Socratic inquiry is also
challenged. I think in the dialogues.
Ah yes actually you know I once heard a comedian Gary gulman
Jewish comedian who said that you know the Greeks gave us
Aristotle, Plato, and all these amazing things and since then
they've given us Greek salad and Yanni.
Yeah. And and what I always wondered
was like, why is why wasn't that sustainable?
For all time the way let's say, like, Jerusalem was and and, and
the, the wisdom of the sages actually rescued Judaism from
I'm from being obliterated and is actually getting stronger and
stronger in a way, whereas the Greeks are, you know, their
influence isn't as strong and actually, you kind of answered
that question now with Socrates because it's, it's, it's not
easy to pass down something like that.
It's not, it's not ingrained into the Layman.
It's, it's not given to the the people.
So I don't know what your thoughts on that are.
Oh no, I think this is absolutely right, but look, The
the ground was well prepared within the Jewish tradition.
I mean, you know, the Torah is read aloud from the days of
Ezra, you know, the Jews are our the Traditions, give a very
strong support for the idea that Jews are to study Torah.
The words of Torah to be in their mouths are supposed to
understand it, it is ritualistically read and studied
throughout the year the cycle and they placed great emphasis
on scholarly Excellence, right? And so, you know, you had this
ground for a kind of General acknowledgement of the
importance of these individuals. We call rabbis who are you know,
let's say more devoted even to study them, the common man.
What's the situation with Socrates?
Well, You know, it's a really it's a really difficult position
that he's in because the great, you know, he is off, he's a
philosopher and the Philosopher's were viewed, not
not without Reason, by the way, in some sense as kind of
dangerous and you know they're not really part of the city.
They're engaged in this activity.
That makes little sense to the common man.
Is this quest for wisdom? What are we talking about?
Philosophy is not in grade and has never been Rained and
probably will never in sort of the DNA of human communities,
right? And secondly, it has a terrible
problem in the apology. The most famous thing.
He says there. He says, you know, I'm not going
to stop philosophizing why and he says because the unexamined
life is not worth living right a life in which you don't examine
and reflect and philosophize is not worth living, he's got a
serious problem, you know, it's because he's talking to an
audience of people who do not examine life that that the
unexamined life is not worth living.
She is certainly no proof that people can't lead unexamined
life, they do it all the time. All right?
People don't particularly think for themselves.
Bertrand Russell said something like people would rather die
than think for themselves and they do right like they die get
out. So so how are you?
I mean it's almost like if I said to you So, suppose I
learned a really difficult and esoteric like, let's say a
played the harp, okay? And I said that people look my
conviction, is that a life without the capacity to play the
harp on an excellent level expert?
Level is not worth living Well, why would I as a non harpist,
you know, believe that the only way I might be led to believe
that is. If I devoted my life to becoming
an excellent harp player, right? And then I can say, okay now I
know that he was wrong or what a great or he was right.
So how do you convince somebody of the importance of these
things and it's much easier in Judy's?
I mean, Plato's trying to like jump start a whole culture,
right? I'm going to make a new hero.
He's called Socrates a philosophical hero.
I want people to look look up. I want people to understand that
there's a kind of transcendent realm of divinity and truth, and
goodness, and Justice, and so forth and focus on that and
bring that into their lives. This is a huge problem, by the
way, the Christians love, you know, Play-Doh.
Because you concerted, you can sort of fit this into it, right?
This idea of transcendence and that there are Eternal truths
and so forth and that, you know, but with so what they do is they
just replace the good, which is the highest principle, right?
Of Socratic Euros. Socratic longings for practice.
With God, right? But you know and but
Christianity is a religion, right?
So you develop these practices, people go to church, they
worship and congregations it spreads.
And now you've got some kind of soil by the way.
This I think is why you're looking at American universities
and you say well where are people really serious about
philosophy? And again, I'm setting aside the
Jewish World, right? But let's just take like a
mirror. It's the Catholic universities
that still maintain a kind. Kind of serious interest in and
teaching in and scholarship in the philosophical tradition.
And why is that and what philosophical tradition, what,
particularly like ancient philosophy and, you know,
medieval and so forth and things that are kind of compatible
with, let's say a general Catholic view of the world or
something. It's because they've already got
the soil, right? You know if you go to someone
and say well you're a Christian and by the way, here's some
text. Are actually sort of in harmony
with what we're doing here. And by the way the church
fathers understood them and read them, and they critique them and
so forth. So we're going to study them.
But, but that's it, right? And the secular world is neither
philosophical no religious. I mean, the soil is not there.
Sort of materialist in a way. Exactly.
It's a tricky.
And if it's a difficult
conundrum, like, you know, how how do you integrate philosophy
with the Common Man? How do you do that?
Or what's what's the answer to that because?
Yeah, yeah anybody anybody who has delved into philosophy or as
if any even a small philosophical bone knows that
it's vital right to humanity to advancing to to all the good
right yet. It's It's very difficult.
It's very difficult to translate that to the common man.
So it's kind of like, I don't know if there's really an answer
or what would be your answer if you could.
Yeah. If you had the podium.
Yeah. Well, we would have to revise
the entire educational system. That's really where it goes down
to. Yeah, I mean, I mean, look, you
know, we are very fortunate today in the in that we have
behind us Millennia of Truly rich and great books, you know,
starting with the Hebrew Bible, it is, you know, and then then
we have this commentary on the Hebrew Bible called the New
Testament, right? Which is also very interesting
and, you know, these things give right?
But then that end in connection with the ancient Greek roots and
then the sort of Roman appropriation of that.
Generates really serious reflection on moral and
political and social issues, gives a very interesting
perspective. There's a lot of work to be done
in sort of comparing origin, Tales, especially interpreted
philosophically of the Greeks, right?
And comparing that with the Bible and so forth.
And but and and then this gives birth to incidentally.
I mean, Grade literature. I mean you could look I was tell
students, you know, if I teach if I'd sort of a teach secular
students, say something from the Bible I say how many you want to
be writers. We raise our annual human rights
fiction, okay? All the stories are in the
Bible. You got to read the Bible, you
know. You want to understand like in
other words you want to understand human nature, human
beings, human longings. Human conflicts political
issues. This is Source of political
wisdom. This is a source of spiritual
wisdom. You got to read the Bible.
No, great author doesn't know the Bible.
You know, it's Shakespeare and so forth.
So so, but we don't, but my what I wanted, I mean the punch line
is we don't study this stuff or if we do, We bring to it, this
kind of theoretical Matrix of like, you know, political
correctness or diversity, equity and inclusion, or whatever it
may be. Already know what's in the
books? I can already tell you, where
reading this, who is it? Thomas Jefferson a slave owner.
This is the lens we're going to read this through, right?
And to be able to like Okay. Why is it if you look at 19 20th
century and you look at real Pioneers right in like
groundbreaking thought you know in sociology and psychology and
you know all kinds of areas. They're often Jews who grew up
in traditional homes, right? And the capacities, I always
sort of, think of it this way, this incredible idea that has
been bhag bhag, says, turn it in.
Turn it for everything, isn't it, right?
That the Torah contains all wisdom, produces an in it sets
an incredible emphasis on the skills of interpretation on
creative thinking on understanding and Those skills
are what make the, you know, like you say, well, why do Jews
went so many Nobel prizes, so forth.
It's in the DNA. It's the skills of saying, this
text deserves the greatest seriousness.
And I'm going to think about it and study it, and appropriate it
and interpret it. And when it doesn't work out,
the way I'm hoping for, I'm going to find clever techniques
of interpretation. By the way, of course, there's a
guy, there's a kind of therapy are parameters on that.
Because if I go too far off, no one's going to care, what I
Nice. A right because there are rules
and principles as you pointed out earlier for interpretation.
So working within a certain framework and getting squeezing
every last drop of meaning out of this text, that's an
incredible training for intellectual activity.
We don't teach students to do that, how many students come to
a text and say this text is worthy of revenant reference.
Okay, if you're Annie Shiva, of course, but if you're in a
public school, the United States is Finn worthy of reverence is
the Bible, we're not going to even read.
The Bible is Plato, were there DNR going to replay?
So we have to start introducing really meaningful and Rich Works
to students and saying, rule one approach this with interpretive
charity and generosity and believe that these words are
deeply meaningful and now try to understand what they mean and
only them criticize. The mistake people make is that
they think that you if you're not a, let's say they were not
born. Born in a religious atmosphere.
A religious family that the Bible doesn't have to be taken
seriously for them. That's the huge mistake that's
not true. In fact, that's literally almost
every great thinker in human history has taken it seriously
without even being Jewish. Jonas.
That's, that's exactly right. And in fact, what's what's so
weird is? Let's say, we were speaking to a
kind of program, you know, Progressive someone on the far
left or something. And what I'd like to say to some
of them. And and incidentally there, you
know, atheistic, and like, oh Christianity, they're ready to,
they want maybe attack Islam, but Christianity, I want to say
to them, but actually, what your entire framework is a kind of
decreed decayed, secularized Christianity here, you come.
And you say to me if we just make this, so we care about
Justice, we care about Equity, okay?
First of all, these are sort of, you know, moral categories that
you come down for a crochet, but then you say, okay, we're going
to create a heaven on Earth. A kind of Utopia.
If we just change this, if we just make things more Equitable,
if we just do this, we can enter into a kind of more utopian
society and so forth. I'm like, this is just, this is
just some some, some vert and and incidentally the whole
notion of like where the True Believers, right?
We're pure those people are impure their sinful ways, you
know, because they have white skin or whatever it may be
right, you know? And so all this is just a
translation of this inheritance and they have no understanding
Of any of this. This is a funny.
They're also reading into all of these things that even the Bible
or Thomas Jefferson as you mentioned with a modern lens so
they're taking you completely out of the context.
Yes. What was going on and that
that's also very dangerous because you need to learn from
history of any to understand what it was all about context is
very very important and what I think is what been she was
talking about before. But building societies based on
let's say, philosophy and rationalism, even the Jews who
are quote unquote irrational, who Let's say, more mystical e
oriented, they still have the the talmudic framework for
living and thinking. So they still are essentially
immersed in a rational World in something way, right?
And if it's the case to go back to this notion of the halacha
conscience for the sort of ethos of Judaism that's got to be
transmitted through a way of life and Um, you know, I mean
there are sort of versions of this.
Well, one thing that we don't really do is, I guess it would
cause her intellectual apprenticeship.
I mean, sometimes people think like I can read these books, I
understand everything. But if you're going to be really
serious about, let's say doing history, right?
Like what is historical evidence?
You know how can I assess it and so forth, you got to study with
a really good historical. Dorian and what you learn from
that person, our modes of thinking and approaching
questions and so forth that you really can't get out of a book,
but that's just the sort of relationship between one
individual and another. Now, if you have a whole
community that is reinforcing these lessons, it is bringing
children up from an early age and sort of, you know, they're
being acculturated in a very significant and Rich way that
that, then transmits this, this ethos.
And so, I think Plano was trying to You know, again, produce a
curriculum that would hopefully generate a sort of community as
or philosophical community that would then produce a sort of
ethos, that could then be transmitted through the
generations. It didn't happen, okay?
And I think, you know, it's just, it's just, it's just too
much. I mean, if, you know, you, you
have to have a kind of religious basis.
It's not enough to just sort of say, I can can imitate Socrates
Because people won't, you know, absolutely, before we go, first
of all we want to thank you so much for your time because this
was so eye-opening and amazing. But before you go, we want to
hear. If you have anything, you want
to plug book that that has come out or is coming out.
Are you working on anything? Well you know, right now I am
what I'm working on is I'm helping to start this new
university called the University of Austin which is here and To
Texas and that's dedicated to freedom of inquiry, freedom of
discourse, freedom of conscience.
I'm the director of the intellectual foundations program
here and which is a liberal studies program.
So for example, we have courses in the beginning of
civilization, you know we read Genesis we read the out of say
we have courses in the beginning of politics, we read Exodus, you
know, we read Herodotus and so forth.
So I'm trying to really begin rooting it right in the great
biblical and Ancient Greek texts and we go through, you know, the
Western tradition and this is essentially a start-up and we've
been raising lots of money and so forth.
So I haven't had a chance to be working on any books.
I have actually been I turned to writing on the literature
written probably eight essays. Now for the new Criterion on
things like latest one was on the brothers karamazov I've
written on literature in the Soviet period.
I'm sort of focused on totalitarianism.
Now, and kind of sussing out, the let's say, the the the
increasingly hardening ideological domination of
politics and so forth. So I've been doing short essays.
If readers are interested in, in, in, in Plato, I would direct
them to my last book which already knows five years old in
2018, I wrote a book called The glaucon's Fate history, myth and
character in Plato's Republic. And I am actually very Be proud
of that because the second book ever another Republic and it
gives you a think, a very rich sense of the, both the
historical context. And Socratic philosophy is
against some of the mistakes that Socrates made.
It's actually about the fate of Plato's brother.
Glaucon who is one of the main, the main interlocutor Socrates
in the Republic. And my argument is that Socrates
could not save him for a life of philosophy.
Injustice that glaucon a Lee joined, this regime of Plato's
relatives called the thirty tyrants.
So it was a sort of spectacular failure.
Yeah. So anyway that's that's one more
thing about about your, the school University of Austin.
So I'm assuming based on what you said that you're trying to
kind of get people back to the classics.
Yes. Avoid a lot of the trends that
you see over, you know, around universities, where there's a
lot of political influence, In terms of how we understand
things, what we're learning, what children are being
indoctrinated with, rather than being educated with?
Yes, what's kind of gone away is, you know, the our Educators
teaching us how to think not what to think.
Yeah. So is that something that you
that you guys are really fighting for?
Yeah, absolutely. And in fact, I mentioned earlier
in the podcast, you know, if you if you if you think about The
philosophical ethos like what is it like to be a philosopher?
What is like to be a rabbi that requires practical wisdom or
require some judgment? And that's one of the things
that I really want to present to the world about our school.
We want students to be able to bring together the best of
tradition with the with the sort of best ideas of the present and
to take that understanding that they've developed and bring it
out into the world. World.
And I would say, I want to advertise us as a place that
actually strives to develop both the sort of ordinary Virtues Of
like, intellectual courage. Right?
And humility, and I think other virtues, moral virtues that are
associated with that moderation and so forth.
But especially this idea of prudence, if you look at our
world today, the thing that's lacking is good judgment.
We've got We've got people in all institutions.
They I mean, and there's a whole long story here about perhaps,
the way that modernity wants to replace judgment with kind of
algorithms and procedures and kind of rules and principles and
so forth. So yeah, I mean, so how do you
develop good judgment? You try to see things, hold
right, you try to connect experience across multiple
domains of human experience and different approaches.
And it seems to me that to be a flourishing citizen in the world
today. You know, we have to start at
the beginning. We have to be informed by these
great books of wisdom. We have to see how that wisdom
was appropriate or failed to be appropriated as we move through
the ages. And you know, at part of this is
involved with like look when when we study a text at the
University of Austin, we're not going to tell the students.
Oh, by the way, this is a book that you should all condemned
because it's author was a racist or Like the, why are we studying
it? No, no.
Here's the words on the page. Respect it.
Understand it. Discuss it good beta and like
the talmud multitude of opinions are plausible.
As long as you can. Here's the rule, you can give me
your opinion, right? Has to be pertinent to the
discussion but as long as you're willing to have it examined and
you're willing to back it up with arguments so that kind of
rationalism might think, you know, it's a that that reminds
me of my mind at ease. It says except the truth from
whoever says it instead of trying to see who said something
try to understand what's being said yes.
Something you'll never says it but except truth forever Source.
It comes. It doesn't have to be exactly
except Truth by what is said not who said it?
Yes, yes. And I think today, since we're
so divided we look and we say oh you know this was said by
somebody who I am predisposed to regard as you know about me.
Yeah. From you can't board.
Yeah. Jackie had a few podcasts
actually to like certain segments to do.
We do we, you know, throw away the art from the artist.
The artist happened to be like, let's say, like a Bill Cosby, or
yes, somebody like that. So what do we do with that?
So it's a very important thing and that really the Alicia been
a weird story in the talmud. Oh, that's really what the
question. They're posing Reuben scene,
we're actually going to have on actually present that entire
gyda his entire understanding. That story is exactly that that
I'm going to have to tell ya. Can you accept truth from
someone who did not exemplify exceptional character right?
And in his case he was he was a sinner.
He was an apostle. Yes, yes, yes, he understands
the story of elusive and of who you are and what what the tommen
is presenting to us this conundrum.
So it just flowed with what you said.
That's that's excellent. Thank you so much.
And there, one, last thing
before we go, I did notice somewhere, when I was looking at
some of your bios, you wrote. An essay on, theologies
regarding the theologies on the Holocaust.
Yeah, I've well I'm going to have to go look.
I have I have written on that subject but I'm not sure which
SAU referring to. So, yeah, I was just thinking
that, perhaps, maybe down the line if you'd ever want to do it
again. Maybe that could be a topic
since you've written about. It could be.
Yes. Yes, it could be.
I've certainly taught that material and it's It's a boy.
That's what they talk about, big questions.
Yes, yeah, listen. I will have to gird my loins if
we do that. But, Hey, listen.
This has been really delightful, it's, it's exceeded my
expectations completely have being able to talk with you
guys. And I'm going to have to listen
to the Jeffrey Rubenstein, because that sounds fascinating.
So I don't know. I think I actually think the
room and see an episode that we did before and even though the
episode we do with Professor Len Goodman, All right, up your
alley. Len, Len is a good friend of
mine. Oh yeah.
He's he's fantastic. I I have the greatest respect
for him so well, great. Well thank.
We're gonna have him on again, by the way, to talk about his
book on justice, but it's such a hard book.
That's it's the yeah. Well that's that's the only kind
of bulky rights, you know, but he's absolutely amazing.
All right, thank you. Thank you, we appreciate it.
Thank you so much. Okay.
Wonderful week. Thank you.
Hey guys, thanks so much for tuning in to the Judy's and
demystified podcast. Really appreciate all your
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