Welcome to Judaism demystified a podcast for the perplexed.
We are joined by Rabbi dr. Eugene corn, we are grateful to
Professor Menachem Kellner for setting us up with dr.
Eugene corn, who's his friend and he highly recommended that.
We speak to him dr. Corn sent us his book and we
were blown away. And we feel like one podcast
will not be enough. So we're definitely hoping to
have him on again, but I just want to tell you a little bit
about him. Dr. Corn is a scholar in the
areas of Jewish, ethics jewish-christian relations and
Israel. He earned a doctorate in
Philosophy from Columbia University and was ordained by
the Israeli rabbit dr. Corn is presently, National
director of Jewish Affairs at the American Jewish Congress.
Adjunct, professor of Jewish thought in the department of
Christian Jewish studies, at seat, Hall University and editor
of the Atlanta Journal a forum. For modern Orthodox discourse,
he has taught at Columbia and Yeshiva universities and
previously was judaic scholar at the Jewish Federation at Metro
West, and director of leadership, education and
development. At the Shah aalam Hartman
Institute of Jerusalem at AJ Congress, Rabbi corn is
responsible for programs and Interfaith relations and Jewish
identity. He has been a member of the Give
Committee of the international Jewish committee on
inter-religious consultations. The highest Jewish body
responsible for Jewish Vatican relations in the diaspora in the
past. Five years, he lectured widely
on jewish-christian relations. He has been quoted extensively
regarding jewish-christian Affairs in the National and
Jewish media and appeared on numerous national television
news programs. He also directed the publication
of a number of monographs regarding Israel.
As in the Middle East and anti-Semitism as director of
leadership, Education and Training at the Hartman
Institute dr. Corner was responsible for
educational programs, for visiting rabbis academics.
Christian clerics American Jewish Community leaders and
students. He has designed courses in
Jewish thought, ethics and Jewish law, and taught Wexner
fellows and Jewish communal leaders.
Without further Ado, dr. Eugene corn.
Thank you for joining the Judaism demystified podcast.
Could you tell us a little bit about your book to be a holy
people? Jewish tradition, and ethical
values? Yes.
First of all, it's wonderful to be on on the cast with Ben.
Ben tzion, thank you very much. The book is called to be a holy
people, Jewish tradition and ethical values.
And I wrote the book because there's a certain crisis and
this is a division in the Jewish people they have And as a result
of historical development, and modern culture and that is that
the after the Emancipation in the Enlightenment and the 18th
and 19th century, they would be, there was a certain split in the
Jewish people that liberal Jews. Self that they didn't have to
keep Jewish tradition in Jewish law.
The only thing that was important was ethics.
So Mickey that's a lot of Jewish law.
For instance, like kashrut lack of dietary laws and they said,
the only thing is important is we have to be good to our
neighbors ethical values. And as a response to that
traditional is Jews. Are Orthodox.
Jews began to emphasize do wish Lon and ha.
You know, at the expense of Ethics, they so X is some kind
of you. Versatile, maybe Gentile import
into Judaism and they stress, haha.
So, in their education at Lok and in your sermons.
And in their writings, it was all about Jewish law and ethics
kind of fell into the into the deep background.
So, as a result, you have these two groups that I think are
still present. Today, they have the
traditionalist who Focus almost exclusively on Jewish law and
you have liberal Judaism, Deism which sometimes talks about
Jerusalem up in the most part. It's all about, but Universal
ethics. Now, my book was an attempt to
show that in fact, Jewish ethics of our sexual and critical and
internal to Jewish tradition and that Holiness, or could you shop
which is a prime objective of the Torah.
And we're supposed to be the only people, you cannot be a
holy people without a dedication.
To ethics and moral values. And this is not a new idea, this
was actually the discussed at Great length by the famous
rabbinic Authority run Bonner not Commodities.
You know who said in his commentary on the Torah, that
there's a Mitzvah good notion to you striving to be, holy you
shall be a holy people. God tells the Jewish people
right before the Ten Commandments I'm in Leviticus
and it's not not in the book of Exodus and Leviticus of it's
part of the Torah. It's part of Jewish law and the
Run Bond says there. That Holiness and Tails
something going Beyond formal law.
Before you can actually keep the law and still be a scoundrel.
Still be a despicable person. Therefore, you need ethical
values to come in to make you holy.
So the Holiness and ethics going hand in hand with each other.
And in fact, I could have been entitled.
The book Jewish law in an ethical mode for Helicon and
ethical mode, but that wouldn't have sold as many copies as
different titles. So we look at it that way, it's
an, it's an attempt to demonstrate from traditional
sources and from Jewish tradition that ethics and Jewish
law in Jewish tradition, really happened to hand in glove with
each other. So that's really the, you know,
the essential argument of the book.
Excellent, interesting. Okay, so Our ethics.
Something that is imposed on Jews from Gentile culture, or is
it an internal part of Jewish texts in Tradition?
Right. So, I mean there's a lot of
traditional dish. Now, to say that will ethics is
something projectiles, you know, if this is some people through
the answer will be traditional Jews.
Keep Jewish law and keep Jewish leadership, don't have to be
concerned with ethics. All we need to do is to follow
every prescription right in the codes of Jewish law like this.
Look on Earth. I'm a professor.
So interestingly you know, traditional Jews say that.
That's a very modern notion. You know, that's a result of
this. Development in modernity that I
mentioned earlier, that that's a response to kind of the
liberalization of Judaism. No, Rabbi in the talmud that I
know of ever held that position the Torah itself in the talmud.
It's understands that ethics are essential right?
To the Covenant, that God made with the Jewish people and you
find that all over the Torah. In other words, there are
essential components Suffuse ethics, right?
Like said they said that is usually translated as Justice
and mishpokhe Miss. Bai means that you have to live
in accordance with law and tell him.
Hello, Kim that every human being was created in the image
of God and listen and Rock'em that is compassion and empathy
with other human beings and the verse and Authority Octillery
Africa. Mocha the Remy atiba said was
the was asleep. Greatest principle of the talk.
All these things are foundations of Jewish ethics that are part
of the tour itself. They don't come from outside
Gentile, culture their part and parcel of of the tower itself
and the Torah itself says about Sita, Sharma had talked.
You have to do what is good and what is right?
So this notion that somehow the ethics come from check tiles
because the universal and we're particular ristic, you know
ironically that's a very Turn notion, that's not what the
Torah says it all and it's certainly not what huzzah or the
or the Tommy rabbis believed in my.
And I talked about this in the book and I give examples and
eyesight text that show that in fact, ethics is internal to
Judaism. We shouldn't see it as something
foreign and we should see it as something secondary to Jewish
ritual. Let me give you just one
example, you know, at the beginning of the Jewish people
in in the Book of Genesis and safe, appreciate this is a story
about stoma no more room at the con tells Abraham.
That he wants to destroy stomach tomorrow because there's many
Wicked people in the cities. So Abraham begins to argue with
God. You know and at the end he says
hello God forbid that you should treat righteous people.
The way you treat Sinners, the way you treat people and then he
says to God. People are, it's no use.
Will the Creator, will the judge of all the Earth, but not act.
In accordance with the laws of Justice.
In other words God is a just God.
God has to has to behave in accordance with the laws of
justice. So God has to behave in
accordance with the laws of Justice.
Certainly, we were created in the image of God, have to have
to adhere to the standards of Justice.
This is in the torrid Zone doesn't come.
Just this doesn't come from the outside Gentile work.
It's part of the tower is part of Are very conception of not of
aberration mine, borates of the guy who created the universe and
it's about Jewish tradition. God is seen as about has that is
as a compassionate empathetic entity.
Who treats human beings treats, his creatures, Jason and the
camera says and many places, but most obvious places in the
Camaro and Sota which says that uses God does acts of gets and
we have to do acts of person Sokka.
Compassion for other people and Justice.
And just to means, treating people fairly, these are
attributes of God, but they don't, when we're supposed to
imitate God and never work. We, as children of God, we has
Partners including who God made a covenant with also have to act
that way. So there's no question that
according to Jewish tradition ethics are internal to the
Torah. It's essential to the Torah and
that's again, what not Commodities said that you If you
really want to be a holy people, you know you have to be ethical.
You think of it this way? Think of it this way.
You know, he had a person who ate block potion would never eat
anything that was not Kosher and he would never violate the
Sabbath but yet it was an unethical person like he stole
from other people or he cheated other people.
Could you ever imagine that such a person you know, would be a
holy person would be impossible or for instance you know, we had
when we can talk a little bit about this later.
You have instances of violence and extremism, done by so-called
religious Jew. Jews.
Who wouldn't think about? What would never eat?
Non-kosher food the Sabbath, but they go and they harm other
people because such people be holy people, there's a
contradiction there so you need ethics in order, you know, to to
realize the great dream of the Torah and the great dream of God
to make us a holy people. I would actually say, you know
like if your brick like you don't have to mention like
stealing as an example. As that's clearly a Breaking Up
Haha, someone could actually be adhering to halakha fully and
completely and still be for example.
Like, you know, you're rushing to get to Minyan, but you're
pushing people out of the way to get there.
You're being rude, right? Exactly.
So, so the right not Commodities has a famous phrase that he says
in his commentary that Tory says you can get involved to shoot
the Torah. That is a scoundrel.
You can be a despicable person and still not great, Jewish
lawyer. You can be within the bounds of
Jewish law. Whoa, but even so you're a
loathsome person your scoundrel. And that's why you need the, the
imperative that our imperative to try to be a holy people to
teach you. Then law is not enough.
You have to go this evening Monsieur that then you could be
humble, look, the camera itself. I'm in very interesting, the
Thomas says in tractate problem with see that it says, why was
the second temple destroyed since no one, the first temple
was destroyed. Romero says that was destroyed
because Jews committed these terrible.
Violations of Jewish law. They committed idolatry, they
murder and they then committed incest and they were sexually
undisciplined. So we understand.
It was a fit part of their punishment for these people
because they violated to optional.
But in the second temple, period and that the second temple
period, the gemara says, they kept all the laws of the Torah.
You know, they've, they've behaved according to the D name
of the tower. That's what the commercial says,
and yet God punished them. Why because they kept the name
in a strict legal sense. Right.
But they were they were unfair to their neighbors, right?
They did the kind of thing that just right, they may have been
rushing to show, okay, but they were rude to other people or
they would be neglected other people, and they hated, they
hated their fellow neighbor, and they did all these things.
Even though they kept the Torah, so they come with mercies God,
couldn't tolerate the midst of this great head of the church
even volusion. At the end of the 19th century.
He said these people were intolerant toward each other,
they hated each other, and God couldn't tolerate these
intolerance righteous people. Just so they were intolerant
with their neighbors. So God was intolerant when with
them and, and destroyed the second temple.
So so the Judge there is you have to go beyond the strict
letter of the law. You have to go look Numa
shuriken and that's the tell Munich race you have to have
basic decency toward your fellow, man.
I remember a few times actually not once but multiple times
where I remember back in Yeshiva, when they would say
that the highest level person can reach is, let's say, take
look to ignore of don't steal so the highest Could reach is when
you don't steal not because it's unethical but because God told
you not to steal in a sense, taking out all the ethics from
the actual commandment. If you get what I'm saying.
Absolutely, that's, that's whatever that was.
That's very good. Example of this mindset is
modern, monitor is not a traditional - it's a modern
ninths of my said that all you have to do, you know, is listen
to the commands of God. And you don't have to be
concerned with any think that this is exclusive focus on the
law. And don't do worry that it sent
its read the fucking ceiling issue.
But there are passages in the mirror.
With says, you're allowed to steal from Jan kaas, okay.
As so, I mean, think about that if that in fact is this is the
strict formal law. Could a person be a holy person,
right? If he eats Glatt Kosher and, and
still some Gentiles and Known that he still some can cause,
you know, could such a person, be a holy person.
It's hard to consider conceive of such a thing.
So we can talk about these examples where a homophone
appears to be unethical, but the parameters of that helicopter
would be that you don't get punished maybe, but that doesn't
make it ethical. Am I wrong?
Correct? No, I'm not the ones.
You don't get punished because you haven't violated the law.
Yeah, but that doesn't make it necessarily.
Ethical. Is it correct?
Absolutely. That's exactly my point.
Yes. Fencing arm could do something
that might not be punishable, but that you're not.
That doesn't make you any better per se.
It's just, it's just, you know, by the letter of the law, your
Not punishable, right, right. And says, okay with that, that's
exactly why the talmud in the government seizes.
Yeah. You know, my father was in the
tower but they were still guilty of terrible, terrible things.
And that's why the second temple was destroyed.
So can you contextualize for our audience?
You know who hear these things? There are.
If you like kind of cherry pick certain verses and Tom would, it
comes off as extremely unethical in a way where you know, there's
in terms of let's say, for example, saving a Have a go, a
on Shabbat and all these things. Like you just mentioned, it
seems almost like if you're looking at it today, you're
almost cringing. So what what do you, what do you
say to that? Because I actually wanted to
give you my own perspective of things.
Obviously, if you want, I'm somebody who, you know, I'm very
much tapped into pop culture, and I was watching Game of
Thrones recently, and I was just thinking to myself, I said, you
know, anytime, If someone walks into a field or walks down the
block, they get, you know, they're getting ambushed or
attacked or there's, there's, you know, attacked by Bandits.
And this was the ancient world in a way because when they said
to lot to Derek, it wasn't like today where you would, you read
a verse because you're, you know, you're driving, you know,
few miles down the road. You're actually always in
Crittenden immediate danger. So, that's the world that they
lived and they lived in a world where they were brutalized by
the gooey and I saw them in a specific way, which is different
than today, obviously. So is it something along those
lines like the way you would answer that?
Yes, yes. And it's not only me, you know,
then who would answer. I think there's a whole host of
modern Orthodox. Rabbis lived in modernity of who
understood that exactly the difference that you're talking
about. Then other words, when the
gemara talked about about these things, they say not returning,
the Lost object of the Gentile. There's a moral and ethical
legal obligation to return, the Lost object of the Jew.
But not, there's no such obligation to return a lost
object of the Gentile. So today, that's that would seem
to be the unjust or discriminatory.
So, how host of modern very, very traditional Orthodox.
Rabbi said, well, you know that that original Law.
Oh, that's in the Torah. Only applied in the culture of
the. When the tourer was written
itself, or if you're even in Tom unit times, when the Assumption
was the Gentiles were uncivilized people, they they
felt no social or moral obligations toward us.
So therefore, we don't have any social moral obligations toward
them. Okay?
However, now when we live in a civilized in a pluralistic
civilized society with Christians and with Muslims
Okay. None of those laws of and of
course if if Christians would consider it an obligation to
return the Lost object of a Jew, then we have an obligation to
return, the Lost object, such as Jim, Tom, that's only fair.
That's what said that gives. That's just the service of
prostate or equality. So many of these laws that we
have problems with today. And we rightfully, we have
rightfully, you know, we cringe at them to use.
Your turn ever it was because they were from a different
context that were from the ancient world and non-jews were
uncivilized people go home when we live with, civilized people
who understand more of morality and moral limits than there's a
certain element that said it and equality and reciprocity that
kicks in. Yes, been seeing him.
Yeah, I push back on what both of you are saying, but we
actually would end up in the same place, just taking a
different direction. I think, although I could be
wrong that another way to look at it and I believe that the
rambam mentions this but I could be wrong.
Would be that the sumption also with the non-jews, in talmudic
times, would be that most non Jews were Idol.
Worshippers something that doesn't ask ye we would get to
the same place but just I'm going a little bit of a
different route. May be less practical like meant
like Benji was suggesting but Um, the standpoint that the that
you know, most Gentiles were considered to be Idol
worshippers and there was a necessary distance that we had
to have the right civilized, basically.
Let's the same at this point because idolatry comes with a
whole host of ethical issues with it, so, I guess maybe it's
not so different, but yeah, there's also that issue of, you
know, back then there was idol worship and there's a lot of
strange type of idol worship. Whereas today, especially in
the, And world I would say that, you know, these problems don't
exist as much. Maybe.
Yes, Yes, actually. That's a very good point.
Vince Young because you know what is idol worship?
If you look in the Torah is two different ideas for idol
worship. One is that people were bowing
down to the stars or it's the trees or today to that's one
form of idol worship. They consider trees and stars to
be cogs around. So, they're worshipping these
finite objects to really not Not God, or really not Divine.
That's one conception. Then you have another conception
of idol worship, and that is people who are not civilized for
instance, what's the Paradigm of idol worship?
He said, who the room is mola, you know, where people's so,
and, and the Paradigm for the Canaanite tribes that that Jews
had to eliminate when they, when yahshua came into the hurts to
not a paradigm where these were Wild uncivilized people, right?
Where no moral values, no central banks.
And the one who stressed Rabbi who stressed this notion of
Idols who was an idol worshiper, is somebody who has a religion,
that doesn't demand that they act.
Civilly and world. The one of the rabbi who
stressed, this was a familiarity lived in the in the 13th
century. And that's the way he defined
idol worship and there. And and and he understood that
Muslims and Christians. Christians were civilized
people, most of them, so they shouldn't be considered Idol
worshippers they were there. He had this famous phrase,
people who are constrained by by their religion.
Okay. So people people who have a
religion, which demands that they don't kill and that they
don't steal that they don't rape and pillage.
So if people are not Idol worshipers, okay?
And that certainly would include Christians.
He would say that they have full Notions, but not necessarily in
the category of Iowa's, right? Right for him.
I don't, you know, I don't worship was a function of how
they behave in the in society and toward other people.
It wasn't some theological conception of, how did they
conceive of God who was about, you know, but the Practical
attack was, you know, very pragmatic tests.
Are they moral people? Are they do have a sense of
social responsibility. If so, then they're not at all,
like the idol worshippers. Is that of describing Tanakh or
in the tumbler? This is a famous position of the
new URI and furthermore I think it is speaks to our day.
This is really how we have to understand about Hazard.
I'll Worship in modern terms that, you know, I have another
book that is actually coming out at the end of this month about
Jewish Gentile relations. And there's a whole chapter
there about what is idolatry today, following the position of
The year was a very underrated another.
Yeah, here's another example of the kinds of things were talking
about, you mentioned maimonides rambam where I'm not a thought
that Christians were Idol worshippers and because of the
Trinity and because of the Incarnation, I don't want to get
into Christian theology, but rambam believes you had to be a
pure monotheists and if you're not a monotheists, then then you
were an idol. Worship is Christianity was idol
worship, according to the Roma. So that was the position of Rob
on the consent for you. Interestingly, never lived with
Christians. You know, he lived in Muslim
societies and he could talk about Christians as a
theoretical population. You never met or talked to
Christians, you know, unlike the mirror who lived in Christian
Provence, in the southern France but meeting inside, that's a
yes. Okay, never confess.
So what that says is that our experience with other people
People are experienced really affects the way, you know, we
understand Jewish law and Jewish ethics, you know, it's not some
theoretical discipline out there, but it has to do with how
we live and what our experiences, many events among
the point. I wanted to make here was that
this could, this could was unacceptable for the rabbis.
Lived with Christians in ashkenaz in the Middle Ages, for
the late Middle Ages, you know, in France, and in Germany and
Italy, they lived with Christians, they understood the
Christians who could be sophisticated, you know, people
religiously morally and therefore they rejected that the
majority of the later rabbinic authorities in Austin has
rejected the rambam because they just couldn't be that Christians
could be Idol. A maybe, you know, they had will
Notions of God because they believe in the Trinity, but they
weren't Idol worshippers. So, they said that the
Christians are not the same kinds of people that the
commemorative development and referred to, I don't worship
mascara. So, another topic that we don't
want to get into human experiences with I'm a big
believer and you can A religion based on the behavior of its
adherence and in Judaism, even if there are texts and verses
that seem to be very very, you know, Unbecoming.
Let's just say, it doesn't usually reflect our actions.
Like we have, you know, for example, these user not really
people who went around ever killing people and forcing them
to convert to Judaism. And we don't have that kind of
history is no tyranny. There's no tyranny.
There's no none of that abuse of power.
Our so that that's something that I feel like is a great
example for another perfect. Example, actually would be the
good morrow which talks about a bit Dean that would that would
give the death penalty was considered a very brutal and
evil Corps kind of. Yeah and evil Court like
bloodthirsty bloody Cord Blood If you argue that the Torah
adopted that, that idea, the fact is use never really took
that literally, or at least tried their best, not to take
that literally right. Yes.
I mean, we just read it yesterday something earlier in
the day, you know, it says I am talking high and so and by the
way, Christians, who were anti-jewish, you know, held this
against us, that we have this bloody look, you know, and I've
heard enough You know, this is primitive, that's the way.
But of course, as you said correctly, Bim, you know, we
never did that literally. And it's interesting that we
never took that literally by the Jewish law, is you compensate.
The person who who lost the eye with money, right?
With the value another, you pay him the value of the I not the
eye itself. Now, now here's an interesting
point, why do we do that? Why don't we interpreted
literally Zion talk about, you know, Shmuel.
Yeah, just got the eye of Shamone, so why we got a gouge
out the Irishman? Well, so the governor explains
why it says, and the argument of the gemara is a moral ethical
argument. It says we don't do that.
Literally, we don't apply the verse literally because the
other value of schmules I might be different from the value of
might be dead. The other party.
Right. So what is that?
That's a moral argument. That says, look, this the
punishment has to fit the crime. So for the loss, the loss and
the punishment has to fit the the extent of the loss.
And one person's eye is not the same as another person.
So, here's an example. Let's say an artist gouged out
the gouges out of a mathematician, so mathematician
really doesn't need his eyes. To do his mathematics.
The way an artist needs is highest to pay heart, but it
would if the artist gouges out the eye of the methods issue and
you say, well you know the laws I am talking to Ian and I for
not and you get out you have to the eye of the artist.
You were taking away from the artist something much more
important than what he did to the mathematician.
That's okay. Why does it matter?
Has to be equal. The answer is because it's an
ethical value of Justice, right? It's something.
So, the rabbi's, understood the nature of justice and the
importance of ethical values so much that they were willing not
to ignore the literal interpretation of what the Torah
says, and go toward the ethical interpretation.
So that's a very powerful example of how ethical values in
this case notion of This year was fundamental in how we
interpret and live Jewish law. I would, I would say that
there's a very interesting chapter in Nahum sarna has
exploring Exodus book where he actually tries to show that it
could very well be that the tour never meant it literally based
on Ancient near East. I don't remember exact.
Maybe you remember member you do remember but he actually makes a
case for the tour. Not meaning it.
Literally all together. That's just an interesting side
note, but regardless, it's a certain sense.
I mean, you know, the ancient law was in the non-jewish
cultures. Was that the person the victim?
The person whose I was couched in?
Had the option of telling the judges?
I want you to gouge out the other, the, the eye of the
perpetrator, right? Or you can give me compensation.
He had the option of the But Jewish law was much more moral
and it sends it said, no. You don't have that option.
Any longer, you know, we only, we only settle this case through
monetary compensation. So, here is an instance and I
think not from sarna talks a lot about this and people who Calvin
people, who investigated, you know, what was Jewish law around
the time of when the Torah was given or the time of the talmud,
he saw the how how the rabbi's implemented visualize a great
moral advancement over the surrounding cultures of the
Time. Princess like the Code of
Hammurabi was is priming soon. So, yes, that's exactly true.
Now let's go back to the case that you talked about about not
as saving a gentile on the Sabbath.
So the Boomer says that, by the way, that we don't have to say
that that's how did in Tino's violating his so to us, you
know, we were to use Ben's term. We Cringe at that kind of
emotion. So in fact that the gemara does
say that there is a there is a way to reason that that gives
you a license or permission to save the life of a gentile and
that is because you don't want to engender hatred amongst the
Gentiles because if you don't save them on Shabbat, they will
hate you and they will come back and kill you, okay?
So that's called me Shoemaker that you're allowed to say the
Gentile because you To avoid their hatred.
That's not a moral argument. That's an argument from
self-interest, so, so many modern Orthodox.
Modern authorities, for instance, Rabbi nachman
Rabinowitz. She was a great great post
secure Israel, who died recently, unfortunately and
rough salivation. And many other round.
They said, no the reason that you Save the life of the
Gentile, right? It's not because you want to
avoid them from retaliating against us you do it because of
the intrinsic value of the life of the Gentile.
And if civilized if the Gentiles you talking about our civilized
non idol-worshipping people, then you save them, not me Zoom
Ava but you say them because their life is a value and just
as a Jewish life supersedes the observance of Shabbat one
Shabbat. So it I think I like also
supersedes it now that in that. So this was a kind of modern
realization or development of Jews ethics that that filtered
into Jewish law itself. And not from rabinovich, you
know, wrote an entire article showing that this was in fact,
not a modern notion but it's in the tower itself.
It comes from a verse in Leviticus and it also was the
major position of not Commodities himself, right?
So, So here's an instance where a kind of a new awareness of the
lives of Gentiles. Let two different moral
understanding of how we live Jewish law suppose.
So all of these are so the law about not saving the life of
ejecta only applies, really? When you're dealing with
primitive Pagan Gentiles, it doesn't apply to the Gentiles
who you and I live with. Amazing, love it really nice.
And, you know, the question I have which is what are the basic
ideas and values of Jewish, ethics, actually have a
question. That's even more, maybe
philosophical. And it's kind of a might have a
Chicken, and the Egg kind of answer, but I was wondering if
the F if ethics and morality shaped Jewish law, or did the
law, allow the ethics develop. You understand what I'm asking?
Yes. Yes, happiness.
A little of both, you know, it's a kind of reciprocal or cross
influence, but the main argument of my book is that we have to We
have to allow our ethical conceptions right to influence
Jewish. Look, here's a, here's another
modern notion that you hear frequently from very traditional
is choose. And that is that, you know,
what, our ethics, ethics are simply what Jewish look refined,
you know, type of what. I, what does it mean?
What it said? That mean what a specified mean,
they're Jewish, law tells us that grow.
So, ethics are nothing more than an extension.
So that all Is a very modern notion that comes from the
reaction against liberal Judaism was secular Judaism, which going
to be emphasized used, you know, there's a famous story in the
talmud which proves that this is absolute nonsense.
This is 3 in the, in the Tom of you Rochelle me about a great
leader of his generation of big leaders generation Shimon, Ben
schachter. So, the story is, as follows
should have been shocked. I was a great teacher of Torah.
And many students but he also worked for a living.
You know he wasn't a cold Little Nick, sadly the in the base
metal shield, a he work for a living and he was in the Flag
straight, he was a black Spurgeon and his students.
So he worked very hard so they came to him one day and they
said Rabbi you know you work so hard.
We're going to make life easier for you.
We're going to buy you a donkey so you don't have to carry the
flex yourself to the prior the acquitted on the donkey and the
Donkey We'll look a little temporary.
They need living for you so the only bought a donkey from an
idol worshiper but I don't worship and on the way back and
they're bringing you donkey back to their around.
But and they discovered that there's a jewel right?
That's under the saddle of the company.
So they bought a donkey but they got the donkey and this Jewel,
also said they come to Chemeketa and they say Rabbi revi, you
know, not only what? Will work be easier for you.
You don't even have to work at all anymore, right?
Because we found this very valuable jewel and you can sell
control and you'll be set for life, you'll never have to work
with the rest of you soshim invention access to his students
City and Did the Gentile know that there was a jewel under the
saddle and they say? No no no he didn't know but we
found that there so he sent to go return it to me, you didn't
do the right thing here, go return it and they protested.
They said wherever you taught us the Jewish law that you don't
have to return a lost object of it checked out.
So she murmured check assessment.
What do you think? I'm a barbarian.
Yeah. I know what?
The Lord's. I caught you the law.
I caught you. That is in strict formal.
Legal terms. You don't have to return this to
its barbaric. Not to do that, right?
So there's something the rump on would have seen.
This is the new measure that. Then you have to go beyond with
the lawyers and if you don't go beyond with the lawyers, you're
a barbarian and I'm not a Barbarian.
So there's an instance in which the unwritten rules the laws of
the law says one thing and Sherman bunch at that says, yeah
but if you follow the law strictly, you're a Barbarian.
So from this notion that all you need to do is to follow Jewish
law. Look is very untell Munich in
that sense. It's a very, it's a kind of
false. And I think very harmful, modern
notion that many traditional excuse me.
So first. And so, to answer a question,
you know, I think what you see in the instance, of returning
lost objects and what you see in the instance of saving the life
of Gentile, on Shabbat, because of the life of the Gentile, not
for your kind of Pragmatic reasons, no matter what you see,
there is an attempt to influence that our Notions of equality,
our Notions of the value of human life, selim are looking
for have influence the way, we interpret Jewish law and Jewish
tradition. Here's another example.
Famous example, bad actually has a lot of contemporary
application. According to the Torah, we're
supposed to exterminate them commit genocide against a
Mullick amalekite, people, and all the Canaanite mentions mean,
it's very is the Torah says with regard to the canine, you should
look to how you are going to show emotion.
Let any any life, you know, remain.
We shouldn't allow any life through me.
And so, it sort of makes a lot of sense to us that you Should
you should kill a know. The people who are in the enemy
Army, who are coming to kill you.
It's Justified to kill in self-defense.
What about women and children and 80 year old grandparents,
you know, according to the Torah itself, right?
We have to destroy all of these people, that's the strict in.
But what about the rabbi's were very uncomfortable with this
understood that there's something wrong with killing an
infant whose Harmless engine doesn't pose a threat to you.
We're killing a 90 year old grandmother and this is good
that the this just you can't do things like this is unethical,
it's barbaric to do that, the used to momentum.
So what did the mother says, you know, how did they solve the
problem? You solved the problem by saying
if there's some favorite poses Mesopotamia conquer, you know,
conquered the Middle East. He mixed all the people up
already. Intermarried all of the
conquered people and therefore, we Don't know who am I like, is
you know, who the Canaanite nations are and all of these
things? All traces of these people were
there. The yukos, their genealogy has
been Boston, differ, you never ever implement this law of
genocide of killing. Every, every human being even
the innocent civilians who are non combatants.
And why did they make this move? I mean, this is a very dramatic
hermeneutical or interpretive Everybody come because they are
more oh now now. Well I live in Jerusalem this is
a very important issue because you know, the Israelis, thank
God, we have an army that defends us and sometimes we have
to go to war and sometimes you have to kill the enemies.
Who are we allowed to kill you? Are we allowed to intentionally
kill to Target civilians from? Let's say, Gaza because there
are terrorists and vows of won't kill us and we have to kill them
before they kill us. But what about the grandmothers
in Gaza? And what about the infants in
Gossip? Are we allowed you know to fight
these wars the way the Torah says Yoshua should point it had
to happen. It was supposed to fight the war
so Robert goren. This is great.
He was the chief Rabbi of the Israeli Army and later became
the chief Rabbi of Cusco, very Orthodox, very traditional, very
committed to Jewish people, he said, God forbid, that we should
fight the laws today, fight. Was today according to the laws
that were set down in the Tobar because it can't those laws were
in different contexts but today we can change can only, you
know, Target or intentionally kill people who come to kill us
forever. But we're not allowed to
intentionally kill people who pose no threat to us and this
was robbed Gorman. So, this is an instance, where,
you know, in the era of human rights of the best war Theory,
though, some notion of just War Theory, you know, field, The
just War theory in modern times only emerged after the second
world war because in the second world war, Nazis were killing
civilian Jews and there were tremendous when they would what
something like 15 million civilians were killed in the
second world war. You're talking about people who
are in the Army were talking about civilians right?
And after the war People are nations got together and judges
got together and they said no. So now on you're not allowed to
intentionally kill civilians and this is the world in which we
live. So what do you do with these old
old laws or of the Torah? But look to Hayek ownership mom.
So, today we said, you can't do this, but the gemara said it Way
Way. Back 2,000, not 2,000 years ago,
maybe, 1,500 years ago. They said that, you know, we
don't know the genealogy of these people, so all bets are
off. Yes, it's written in the Torah
but that is room for instead classically with dr.
B. Then we should do something like
this. Now here you have a development
of how we lived you with that's influenced by our ethics and
thank God. It's influenced by our ethics.
How would you understand Shoal? Because he actually, yeah, it's
interesting that you brought that up.
As I was about to bring him up, he obviously refrains and we
never really act on this command of wiping.
I'm out, like we always failed to act on it, meaning even the
Jews. You don't have to go to the
rabbi's, the Jews themselves were kind of hesitant punished,
right, but by question about him, was his kingship.
Yes. But at the same time he from his
perspective, he was giving. I mean, she had been, I mean was
almost wiped out in the pale, ales give big evil.
Episode. And in a way from his point of
view, you can understand. Like he almost saw the
destruction of his own tribe and now he's being commanded to
destroy another people, right? So and and that's a good that's
a wonderful example, right? And by the way, the traditional
rabbis in the medieval rabbis all talk about this case because
the shovel is kind of the Prime case in the tower over him being
punished for not killing a god. Who's the who's that?
King, you know, his counterpart. He, you know, he has murdered.
He has compassion over. I bet he doesn't feel he loses.
His kingdom was a. He's punished because it is so.
So, it's interesting. So, who kills who kills our back
would, after shovel refuses to do it, she more.
All right, before he kills a guy, he says, just as you have
killed you just as you have made many mothers childless because
you You killed their children. Right?
I'm gonna kill you and make your mother gave an ethical reason
before doing. There you go.
That's right. It wasn't because well, you
know, God said it in some arbitrary fashion, right?
It's because you deserve to die deserve to die because you
killed others and therefore you deserve to give it to give it
context also for our listeners. Who may not know what my like
was. I'm a lick were didn't like you
said they didn't fight with the rules of War they would attack
women children, you know, old people People, who are sickly
from behind, you know, like today we would call them
terrorists, right? And happiness is not clear what
they were doing work. There were tears are ruthless
and, you know, and the juice still had a hard time with that,
but I wanted to say something else about cheol.
I think also the reason why he loses his kingship is because he
it ends up. What happens is, if your
merciful to the merciless, you end up becoming it kind of you
could potentially become that. That Carolyn, oh, yeah, yes,
happens with who later on. He he goes and wipes out a whole
city of 440 kohanim, because they were protecting David.
And it's like, oh, you're going to save a dog's life who's an
evil person and you're going to wipe out these innocent kohanim.
So it's kind of like when he loses it, he loses it because
she wanna be understands this or he understands work, which in
itself is a kind of Reasoning right.
Again, it's not because well you have this verse in Deuteronomy.
That says, you need to do. It is a cut that argument.
Is, you know, if your merciful to the cruel will wind up, being
cruel to the merciful for this. Those are the Coalinga.
So, that's a, that's a kind of utilitarian argument.
This is look. If you go off on your own, you
know what you, you're going to wind up being a murderer
yourself, which it, which is a moral argument that again, it's
not a kind of fundamentalist, aren't you?
And again, it's it's motivated by this notion said to confess
it which, you know, to answer your question.
Buzz are the fundamental values of Jewish Edwards said, heck,
meaning Justice and fairness? And kind of said, meaning
treating understanding the pain, the situation of other human
beings and not treating other human beings objects, you know,
it's interesting in parshat mishpatim which I read
yesterday. Read against well, it's Sunday
for you guys to now is that there's a verse that says, big
are those who cannot see should not oppress The Stranger.
We Were Strangers. The Antalya doctor nephew Shaggy
rug because you know the experience of the gear because
you were gay, reviewer strangers in Egypt.
Now this is actually a very beautiful way of illustrating
what moral reasoning is over that way The total really saying
here, it says you of all people you understood, you understand
what it meant. You experience being a stranger,
you were vulnerable minority, who was defenseless and the
Egyptians oppress you through slavery.
So you understand how bad it is to be oppressed and therefore
you have when you are the majority opinion in society and
you have a vulnerable minority of day reading strangers of
nonhumans You understand, you have to put yourself in their
place. That's beyond hop delivery of
her to come over. You have to put yourself in
their place, you have to understand their experience and
their pain, and you should understand their pain because
you, you experience that pain when you were slaves in Egypt.
So, this is a form of moral reasoning, philosophers.
Call it moral imagination. You have to imagine yourself in
the place of the other and behave toward them as if you.
Would want them to behave towards you.
That's the principle of the Kiba, that's the principle of
deadly. Oh, you know, this is a
principle of Justice. Now, interestingly, rep, I
seldom, Venture when he was used to give classes on Saturday
night in Brookline, Massachusetts and used to give
lectures on Marcia to Shibuya. So in the Book of Genesis, God
tells Abraham and In the future, your people, you know, will be
oppressed and subjected by other people and he's looking that
slavery in Egypt. So Rabbi some vintage is why did
the Jews have to go through the experience of slavery in Egypt?
They weren't they didn't send it that point.
They didn't say it was kind of miss.
It was determined that they had to go through this slave
experience. Why ceramic something she says,
they had to experience the pain of being slaves.
Waves to make them a compassionate people, make them
immoral people, so they wouldn't do the same thing to other to
others, right? So that's again, this kind of
moral view of Jewish life of Torah life that we had to endure
slavery to teach us that we can't behave.
Similarly, to other people. And this is the been extended.
And I think Roberts Elevate, chicks interpretation is very
valid because of the The verse that we just read yesterday that
you shouldn't have pressed, the drain is a stranger because we
ourselves Were Strangers or slaves in heat, right?
That it's a beautiful way of moralizing or using moral values
of aggressive, and Rock'em news, you know, to diner Behavior as
religious Jews, or in-store just as ethical views, It's a clear
usage of moral reasoning in relation to one of The
Commandments, which is actually why I can't understand what I
was saying. Go back to earlier when I said
that there was multiple times, I heard where, you know, rabbis
would say oh Robbie would say like, you know that the highest
level of Mitzvah would be to do it because God said it and not
even because of the ethical reason attached.
But here you have like you mentioned in the text in the
Torah itself. Clear defined moral reasoning,
literally being attached to the commandant so it doesn't get any
clearer than that. And yes, Marcia is really one
huge, you know. The whole Parsha is basically a
tutorial in moral reasoning. I was going through this partial
with my daughter. My daughter is really, really
responsive. I'm talking about, she's very
into ethics in general. She's she's very connected to
that concept of Ethics. So she really enjoyed this
partnership because every single Commandment that we're going,
almost every single one was so clearly related to ethics it's
undeniable and and it helped her feel very connected.
Know what I mean? Yes, yes.
That's true. So now that you brought up the
topic of slavery, I wanted to bring up in the Torah.
It mentions slavery, but actually read the finds it in a
way. It's in Israel.
It's indentured servitude. The Torah is really making a
polemic against, you know, the ancient way of doing things in
the Pagan world. How would you describe this too?
To somebody today who will open a homage and will read and say,
oh my gosh, the Torah, how can the the tour?
Condone such an activity, right? So this is a really good
questions. A really important question and
exposes a whole host of moral issues.
So it's true that the institution first of all, let me
just give you an Insight here. You just talked about or
submission tune of you to read yesterday and what is the first
laws of how Israel should govern itself after it, leaves the
Egypt in the slave experience and youth group.
And what kind what laws should be used to set up a Jewish
Society, orator has Society, the very first laws and parshat
mishpatim are about slavery, right?
How you What are you hungry fashion or reshape this whole
institution of slavery and it humanizes slavery, you know, to
a great degree if you knock out of slaves, to the slave post
free in all of these. So didn't eliminate this whole
notion of slavery because maybe that was impossible in the
ancient world to try to humanize or ameliorate the institution of
slavery, protect some certain rights of the Synod and later on
in the day. Dora.
But it says that you can't enslave somebody forever, a
slave can only be over servant can only be a servant to six
years. In the seventh year, he goes
free, unlike agents lately. I remember seeing films in
America about what slavery was like in the South American Staff
and which the slavery that the mastered, the plantation owner
of the master own the slave you can thank you.
Wanted with the sleep, you could beat the slave to death, he
could rape those, the women's literature.
He be separate the families of his face, you know, the slave
was nothing other than a property of the nest.
It was a horrible. Horrible Tiffany.
So, what did power did 2000 years ago?
Actually, let's say we couldn't eliminate slavery, didn't
eliminate the threat to human eyes.
Somebody forever, you can abuse the slave physically, Salinas
certain rights, you can't break up the slaves family to pay for
the slave came with family, has to it has to leave working with
his sons employees, unlike slavery in the South so the
Torah kind of gradually tried to humanize slavery.
So as you said, it's really more of indentured servitude than the
in practices. However, there's a complication
here, it's not so, not so easy to say that because all of these
limitations on what you can do with the select, you couldn't
work the slave to harder. The talmud says you're not
allowed to work just like you're not to come this way.
You know you go you dig up my backyard and keep digging until
when I completely have to say if they only pick up until this
point or you only can do it for two hours of three hours because
it's cruelty to tell the slave to work and not telling When he
finish, but all of these limitations on slavery, only
apply to a Jewish serving crew, jewishly agree.
They don't apply to a Gentiles. So so so Gentile servant or
slave you couldn't slave forever in the tote is very clear about
this. So let me just quote, you a
passage from maimonides to lived in the 12th century.
He said yes it's true. You can you can mistreat Kanani
Gentile slave according to the strict lawyer allowed to do that
seven even though that's the law only idolatrous cruel people
will do that, and you should never do that.
So here again, you have this critical passage and it's not in
some Phillips. In my mind, these philosophical
work, it's in maimonides code of Jewish law in his mission.
He says, even though the law is that you can mistreat You can be
cruel to a gentile slave or Penthouse, serving.
You should not do it. God forbid that you do it.
You have to, you have to treat this tent on serving as a human
being. And he quotes Pursuit came from
from The Book of Job about it, that everybody is created in the
image of God. And you have to treat people
with hessen and rocker and and only pagans only Pagan Idol.
Worshippers are cruel to other people.
So the It's one thing, but but religious Jews are faithful.
Jews are good Jews or authentic shoes.
Might have to be compassionate to everybody.
So, so here you have an instance where the Torah, when this far
regarding slavery. If you need not be cruel to a
Jewish slave. If you can be cruel to the
Gentiles layer and then rabbinic Judaism, right?
When even further it, took it further and say, you're not
allowed to be cruel or you're not allowed to mistreat, even No
service. So you have any is another
instance in which, in which ethics kind of overrode the
formal law and when was New measure cadmium and, and
intellect Jews to be ethical and compassionate and two exercises
notion of said, toward all human beings because all human beings
are created in terms of my money's quotes disbursed from
General. And job says, you know, haven't
I and my Gentile servant where we all created in the same room.
In other words, God, created all of us the same way we're all
equal, you know? And God forbid, that you should
say that, he and that were lack of not to be cruel.
To Jews were allowed to be cruel to Jenkins.
So this is another kind of beautiful, ethical formulation
of how Jude should live a moral life in a religious life.
Yeah, and again just for you know, those who are not
understanding fully The context, the idolaters of the ancient
world were sacrificing their children to their gods, and
that, really, that's the kind of, you know, people that they
were up against the Jews. So they have to keep that in
mind when they have to everything has to be put into
context. You can't look at, you know, the
tour or anything else from the past, in it from a 21st century
lens, it just doesn't, it's not right?
Also, I mean, I would say, you know, then it's much more
contemporary than than The ancient world.
I mean I cited the case of what slavery was like in America to
go to when you're 50 years ago a more Progressive famous book.
It was this book in America called the help you know.
And it was important. Yeah.
You're right. And it showed you that even
those there was no longer any form of slavery in America in
the 1950s. I think it took place in the
1950s. This is that you know how
Negroes are blacks were treated by white people in the South.
It's horrible. It's just Terrible, there was no
form of slavery, but there was so much Injustice and cruelty.
And, you know, so logical breakdown work.
It's not just the ancient world. So, you know, I would say, if
you read this book, the helper, see the movie became a movie and
you get real depressed because of how people were treating each
other with just Karma, then read this passage in maimonides which
is the 12th century text and tells you that, you know, you
can't be cruel to anybody who all created in the same room.
The same way by God. And so, and I also discussed
that famous passage in maimonides in my book, it's so
brutal, you know, what happened to the black people.
And it's, it's what's crazy. Is that the cognitive dissonance
of there were religious Christian owners of slaves, and
say who were, you know, practicing their religion.
And then reading these verses that all men are created equal,
and then, you know, doing what they do.
So that's crazy. Treating them as subhuman.
It's really horrible, but I'm gonna need is a book.
No, dad. I don't know if you know, Darryl
horn, she's a very talented heard.
The name was Jewish, by the way, really Rising superstar in
America. She's listening and she wrote a
book called the other night. It's about Jews in the South
during the Civil War period. And she, and there's a scene
there in which they're doing the satyr and I and it's fucking
about freedom and these and it's a wealthy Jews in the South and
there mumbling, they're reading the hug and down and talking
about Freedom, how to Jews became free and around them.
They have Jewish life, they have black slaves, you consider their
that is real cognitive dissidence.
There's, and they don't even realize, you know, that they're
enslaving people around them. So so we I've decided, you know,
we have to behave, according to what our views are not mouth
ideals and then Behavior, notably?
Yes. But it's a very, very
contemporary issue. I mean unfortunately,
discrimination and racial inequality, you know, are still
with us. Of course.
And now that we're kind of segue into a similar topic religious
violence, so lucky here at you live in Jerusalem.
That's kind of like Hot bed in a way for.
You see from lots of jihadists or you even see it from Jews and
non-jews? What is your opinion on this?
Yeah, so I mean this is really a Scourge, this is in my
neighborhood. It's not that uncommon to see
that. You don't see that in Great Neck
or in Five Towns or in Peoria, Illinois.
But you know, we see a lot in the Middle East and most of the
time we see it from Islam as or radical Muslims.
But I'm very sad to say that we see in amongst Jews here to,
and, and particularly say that is that sometimes it's religious
Jews and I was here in Jerusalem in 1995 but a religious Jew
assassinated. It's got Corbin for supposedly
religious motives, you know many, rabbis were counseling to
that behaving this way and I think In 2000 and maybe 2015,
there was a Gatorade in Jerusalem and a religious June,
you know, kill Shira banki. Was there a teenager who was at
this parade? She was one of The Observers in
the parade and he was so incensed that about that's
escaped. Her agent who was sufficiently
that he killed, he killed for their sensibly, work for
religious reasons, and And also very recently, some religious
Jews firebombed the church in the Gully of the this because
they felt here again. You know this come chickens come
home to roost because they felt that that Christians were
idolaters and we're supposed to kill a doctor's orders or
minimally destroy their places of idolatry.
So they firebombed this church in the Galilee so also religious
violence. This is a real problem today and
it was a book that was written a horrible book.
Just a horrible. Good book to write him.
A letter that said, you could kill Palestinians innocent
Palestinians because after all, they have no rights in the land.
Anyway, only do separates of movement and these are written
by rabbis, by rabbis. Now all of this to me is, is the
antithesis of what the Torah teaches us about send their
confession. But you find extremists go often
to Directions religion and so every religion has its fair
share of really that's crap solutely correct.
Every religion has it. And we were spared, and for many
years because we were a week community that lived in
Christian Society and we didn't have power.
We didn't have, we couldn't own gun.
So we certainly couldn't go around killing Christians
because it was politically impossible to do silks.
This famous passage in a book called The Goose to be written
by you who the Hologram, which is, if it's a He was booked,
it's on every every educated Jews bookshelf, and it says it's
a dialogue between this Rabbi. And the king of the cars are so
it's called the kuzuri. And the rabbi is making this
case to the king of the password, then we're not like
the Muslims, and we're not like the Christians because we never
went on jihadists and we never went on crusades to kill people.
And then the Rabbi says to the, they the king of the concert
says that the rabbit says you haven't, you never had.
A chance to never have the opportunity to because you asked
for the real test about whether your moral is when you have the
power and you don't kill people, you don't kill innocent people.
When you had that's the real test and that's where we are in
Israel today. Lee thank God.
We have an army that can defend the Jewish people.
It's not like the Jews of Europe in the 40s during the show.
Robin. Thank God.
We have an army that is strong and capable within defend us.
And People from killing this, but we have power and we have
guns and we have been the majority.
So the real test is, when we have this power, how do we
behave toward the stranger for the other?
And you find these extremists of go often University, they kill
people who they don't mind, sometimes the Jews like it's
covered in and Shira banki or Scout.
And but more often than not, they're innocent Palestinians.
I'm not talking about Palestinian terrorists or Arab
terrorists, who come to kill. Louis, of course we have to
defend ourselves in coming, but I'm talking about innocent
people. There's been incidents.
Yeah, yeah. So high.
So, what's the antidote for this disease?
You know, how can we argue, how can we convince people from
religious texts and Jewish tradition?
That this is wrong with this is completely unacceptable.
So I think the key notion here is this notion of Salem are
looking that all of us who paid in the image of God, what does
that mean? And by the way, Jews and
Gentiles ruined when God creates This is juice is talking about
only only Jews were created in the image of God, the gym house.
I mean that's it. That's completely Jewish notion
that does not in scripture at all anywhere.
So everybody has. So what does it mean to be
created in the image of God? It means that each of us each
life is Holy and that each of us is owed respect and dignity and
security. What we were Cause human rights
today, okay? So human rights is modern
language but that's really what's Illinois.
Theme is all about the each of us our lives our sacred or holy
and therefore no one has the right to take that like the only
justification for taking the lung is self-defense
self-defense. You're allowed to kill someone
who comes to kill you. First heard that you now have to
kill an innocent person who stormed the seems not.
So, so we have to teach this notion of selling milk, even
more and more in the Solution. Now, interestingly don't see it
that much in a locket literature or Jewish legal literature.
Unfortunately, it's not invoked, but Lee and legal and Jewish
people were very discussion, but I'll give you a case.
Where wasn't both very interested in 1917.
The only five countries in the world that gave women the right
to vote. And they weren't the ivy league.
International diplomacy. It was a very small countries
like Switzerland Russia because it had just undergone a
revolution Finland, you know, sort of a small countries.
That was a 1917 and then the issue of the right to vote
became a huge controversy in Europe.
Now, in 1917, something very critical happened.
There was a Balfour Declaration which said which England said
that they're kind of Jews homeland in Palestine.
So once you choose understood, they were going to have some
degree of political Independence.
They understood they were going to need a body to, you know, a
government or quasi government to determine how what the law
should be. And then the question came up in
the religious community should women, could women have the vote
right to vote? Should they involve be involved
in politics? And even could they even be
voted into office? Has, this is a huge.
Question. Because in the past, women never
Jewish women and in Jewish victims, never involved in
politics. If you read the Torah is read
the Tanakh. Women are never included in the
census, right? It's only adult.
Males were considered and women were not except for tube over
women whenever leaders of the Jewish community.
So many of the traditional most said women, this is a women
should be at home. They should not be involved in
politics, which is the public sphere.
And then, who is he? L wrote.
Who was the chief Rabbi of the holds this party to grab a table
City made an argument and said, listen, it's true that women
were not in the census isn't ruins.
Not women were not political uses, but aren't women created
in the image of God? And what does that mean?
That means they have the right to speak up for their own
interests, right? And therefore, they have the
right to elect representatives, who will defend their interests,
and they even have the right to be representatives in the
government. So for this, Notion of selling,
my leukemia, understood the implications then women, you
know, haven't you have equal rights in defending their own,
their own interests. And this is, this is an
expansion of the notion of selling the looking.
And certainly, if they have the right to speak up for their own
interest, they have the right to tell him.
LT means that that we have to consider all human life.
Holy and therefore, we have to Avoid that all courses extreme,
violent religious violence and reduce extremism.
As long as we don't teach so many theme.
I think we'll always have this idea of religious violence.
What would you say about the Harsh punishments in the Torah.
I think that some people justify or create a certain mindset
because of the harsh punishments that they see the tour meets out
for sometimes what would be perceived as you know.
Thins that Commandments that don't even have moral reasons,
or something like that. And you'll have a penalty and
stuff like that. How do you understand that?
Right? Right.
So first of all, understand what our opponents are.
The punishments for crimes of her sins.
So, they're not step that you take toward innocent people.
If this problem of religious extremism in many ways, is that
is that it's not only much punishment but it's balanced
Recon. Innocent people for racial
reasons or nationalistic reasons.
So it's interesting again. Here you have a situation with
the Torah. The written Torah says one thing
36 crimes for sins in the Torah for which His capital punishment
that the punishment is death. So, what did the rabbis do with
that? So that's you quoted earlier
right? They very rarely implemented
this because they made the legal procedures of the legal
prerequisites for the death penalty to be so extreme that it
was included almost never be implemented.
So the Torah says, the talmud says that a court that executed
somebody once in seven years and years.
As a variant of the, the leadership of the text that says
once in 17 years in federal court that executed, somebody,
once in seven years was considered a bloody court and
that's not a compliment to the court, okay?
And then rebbi Akiva came along and he said that if it were up
to me, we would never do it. You know, so yes there's harsh
punishments. That that the Torah says, should
be implemented but rabbinic Judaism interpreted in a way.
To protect human life and not xq people.
Because even to execute a criminal, you know, is something
that is is repugnant in some ways.
Yes. Sometimes we have to do it
because to protect Society, but don't do it but what if you have
to do it, understand that it's morally repugnant to do it and
it's not something you're supposed to Israel today is a we
don't execute people in Israel. Don't act cute errors.
Terrible terrible people You know, who do horrible, horrible
things, we don't actually the only person who was executing
Israel was Adolf, Eichmann, but other, but but we don't do it
because there's something in in Jewish ethics and Jewish values
that says, you know, you can't take a human life.
There's something wrong with it, okay?
You can only do it, an issue of self-defense.
So again, you know, you can you can take the literal list
meeting but then you remain, Of Judaism very, very frequently
try to humanize these texts and moralize these texts and
Implement Jewish law in a moral way.
But there are instances where it Jewish law today.
You know, Falls below with our conception of Ethics is with
respect to women, with respect to Gentiles and that's the kind
of ongoing development of Jewish law or 10.we in the face.
All way in a way that's consistent with Jewish law
somehow bring this notion of equality and compassion, you
know, into new areas and apply it to women and to Gentiles into
same-sex Jews or same sex people, you know, that that's
the ongoing development of Jewish law.
Anything about douche ethics. And also juice or and just as
modern Rabbi said, well, you know, we can say Gentiles on the
Sabbath because of the intrinsic.
Zeke value of the like magenta. That's a relatively new
development, but it's authentic. And it's traditional, it's
authentic and it's legitimate, you know, can we do the same
thing to women, the whole issue of Authority for women and equal
status of women is a huge, huge issue today that we have to
Grapple with and if we and a traditional Jews don't grapple
with it, you know, Judaism will just seem more Antiquated in a
relative and immoral and God forbid that that we see the
Torah. As as less moral than the
standards that the moral standards of the Gentile world,
where the secular world, and I'm going program of Jewish ethics,
and I cannot believe we can do it.
That ultimately, you know, good what God wants of us is to be to
do the good meseta, he sharbat of to do the good to do, what is
good to do, it is right to do, it is just to do what is
compassionate, you know, and we have to move in these directions
and that's Is the ongoing project of through sanitation?
The development of Ava. So I actually want to touch on
something related in the ancient Judaism that we had the Torah
that existed there. There's this idea that it was a
constitution and it became a religion out of necessity host
Exile. But really it was a constitution
for the people who lived in the land of that time and these are
the laws that they live by. They had to adhere to these laws
but now As youth, who returned to the land of Israel in a
secular Israel, don't have a constitution that would or even
like America has the Constitution which is somewhat
based on the Torah. Israel doesn't seem to have
something like that in place. Is there something that actually
could be done to kind of solve this issue?
Or is it there right now? I don't think it's run things.
Very, very current actually been you know this is huge
controversy going on. Now is show day.
Demonstrations That official reform, it's called judicial
reform to what extent, you know, should judges be able to cancel
laws that were made by the knesset there?
Even though Israel doesn't have a constitution as a certain very
kind of mini constitution of school basically us.
And so part of the judicial reform is to say that when the
politicians can cancel with the judges, say, you know, the law
may be one thing, but if the knesset passes new law, you
know, that violates the fundamental basic rules.
And then the courts can can intervene in any way.
So, there's an interesting part of the, the part of the tower
that deals with, this is really safe environment.
The book of Deuteronomy America, but about a king.
You should appoint a king, but there's a side.
There's a requirement for it. Being the Savior Towers supposed
to go with the King, where the king nor should be the concert,
you're supposed to write us a photographer.
What's that all about is that just kind of ancient, you know,
ritual that that has no meaning for us today.
I don't think so. What that means is that the King
Hamlet, who's the politician of his day, he runs the politics
of, you know. He has to have a secret Aura
around him. A little time to remind him that
he's subject to the law, right? That he is not the ultimate
Arbiter, he is subject to the commish pot in the laws of the
Torah. Now you can make an analogy
today to what's going on in here.
You know, some of this judicial reform is to say well you know,
the government can decide anything it wants and you have
the judges, the Supreme Court and they really have no say
because they may say that that you know what what what the
government the prime minister and it's not just this prime
minister, it's any prime minister, it's the executive
branch of the Israeli government that they can override the law.
The law is the law and that they have to in a certain sense.
For Cle carried around to say, for Tower with them, hey, can
override the law. So if the judges in the Supreme
Court say no, this is illegal, or this is against the basic
law, then then the judges should carry the day, not the
politicians and that's the big debate that's going on in
Israel. Today, should the politicians be
able to do whatever they want without the constraints of law
without the protection of individual rights, or Will the
law override the politicians. So I think the tower has
something to say about this. That's exactly why we can always
has to have a safe encoder American because he also has a
business famous statement by the French King of one of the
Louise. I'm not sure what, he's just
l'état C'est Moi, right? In the eye.
I am a mistake, right? The king does the Louis are
whatever I say they are and tutors is, no, that's not the
case. There's certain things you Did
not do no matter how much power you have.
And, and the Torah in the sacred Department, says the king can
accumulate too many horses, right?
Which means you can't have such a great arm.
You have to be limited in your political power.
You can have too much. Well, in other words, the game
is always constrained and what he can do.
You can't your syrup the power don't fall in the priesthood,
right? And the priest can't become
Kings and all these things are here.
There's about there's a checks and balance system, where the,
three tiers of leadership cannot usurp one another.
And, you know, do you have the prophets who are kind of in
between the people and the leaders who they're kind of?
Like, in a way they serve as the meteor with the media should be
in a way, where is there? Keeping everyone in check making
sure that people a moral falling out.
It would be great, but we have to protect the independence of
the Judiciary. Design of democracy.
That's the design of sign of the free society, and we have to
have a system of checks and balances, we can get allow any
branch of government to rule without certain limitations.
That's true. And that's, that's a huge issue
today, but I think those advice that no matter how much power he
has, you know, has to have a sacred toe around him.
He need to has to be subject to the law.
How you do in modern times is a difficult issue, that's it.
It's in Israel's the new country.
It's a, their learning, you know, they were socialists 20
years ago. Now it's capitalist country
things change and we're going to learn from our mistakes.
And, you know, it's a very young Asian, but frankly I think it's
overall, you know, positive development in human history
because arguably you could say that Israel today is the
greatest version. Israel that ever existed.
So in terms of success and I actually want to get back to a
topic that we because I don't want to lose track of what we
mentioned before, which is women's rights.
Today, we find that even in the 21st century, there's a lot of
you know, women who are chained, right?
The uh Guna crisis. It seems like a very Arcane kind
of law. What do you make of this whole
Isis today. Yeah, well I think well first of
all just to some background yet but the crisis is caused by the
stipulation in Jewish law that the only way a woman can obtain
a bill of divorce again, as if her husband makes it to her.
So her husband has that's the full power over.
Whether the woman is divorced or not divorce.
It's not an equal Pacifico relationship here.
Because sometimes you have husbands who sometimes the
voices are or predictive submitters a very bitter and the
parties don't want to be sympathetic to the other party.
This is a lot of acrimony and hatred.
So you have situations where husband very cruelly you know.
Deny a woman a divorce and in Jewish War I the husband refuses
is relying on like they can be done at least that's the basic
World they were rabbinic enactments that try to constrain
Ain't a husband, but they're not employed today.
So, as a result, you have made many women who are suffering,
not get divorced, because their husband refuses to divorce them,
and they live a life of loneliness and suffering and its
really cruelty. It's that it's real cool to you
and miss it. This is a legal problem and it's
an insufferable more crumb and it was against the grain of this
notion of equality. Because there is no equality in
Terms of of the power to divorce her to be divorced.
So it's a very, very big problem.
I personally feel that that Jewish law will never have the
moral High Ground that it was with.
You. Never say that Jewish law is
morally Superior and manifests the highest ideals of ethics and
morality. And so we solve this problem and
it's the same sudden, it's been ameliorated to some degree by
this notion of a prenuptial agreement.
Just before the marriage, you know met him signing agreement,
that's legally binding, that's electrically binding that in the
instance, let's say where the marriage is irretrievably, land
that the parties have separated for certain amount of times that
the husband has to pay x amount of money and that is very
onerous and inevitably an incentive.
But I was going to give the wiping divorce, but these are
kind of workaround so to speak. Do you really have to solve this
problem? It's a very, very deep problem
of any court and it's not a theoretical problem, you know,
it's not a severe. I'm like a mulling because we
don't know we're more like it is today.
So, you know, we can live with the idea that you should kill
him only because because we never actually do it here.
This is a real human problem with the human suffering and
Injustice that takes place each, and every day, particularly in
Israel and also in America We have to stop this problem.
How we do it? We don't know.
But there are prolific remedies that tragedy is that much of the
rabbinic establishment is not want to employ these these
collected remedies. I mean, the Meritor and medieval
commentaries talked about this notion that their advice can
basically a known the marriage. If you can situation with her
husband, refuses, the divorce, the ram has a mechanism of
annulling the marriage and say no, the woman doesn't need a
divorce because They were really never married, but the rabbi's
are not doing this today, because because of a reluctance
to liberalize service deeper to get women, hold equality.
And to take the power out of the hands of the husband, you know,
and kind of balance out the powers.
This is a tragedy. And I think this is a, this is
also part of the issue of how do we kind of re-appropriate or
read Understand this notion of equality between the Sexes.
You can't get around the fact that that traditional Judaism
gives men more power than women issue.
I mean, there's a big issue today about Dino.
Can women, hold religious Authority, can women be
realized? So the home existence of the
problem, testifies to the fact that women did not have equal
power however you want to in Sir that question about whether
women can hold Authority near the very fact that there is a
question indicates that there's an imbalance of power, and it's
also true in marriage, lawfully, married, Martin sto going to
problem. So how we solved, I don't know,
but we must solve it and we must alleviate the suffering and the
loneliness of, I don't know. In a woman.
No human being should be allowed to suffer.
We can avoid it, and no human being, should should be
condemned to live. Own and are not on married.
Life Community Services. Little video down below but it
was a good for the human being to live alone psychologically
and spiritually destructive. So we have to solve this
problem. I don't have any silver bullets
that can do it, but I am but but it's an urgent urgent problem
that needs great attention. Well you're an orthodox Rabbi
and you're having a conversation about it.
So in this generation that that's the best thing you can do
to kind of get you know. Just have the conversation this?
Yeah discussing. It's all about Judaism is about
discussing ideas. So before I would say, I would
say that, you know, there's one fundamental Act of Faith that we
have to function on and that is that ultimately, you know, you
can find a solution. It's not enough to say well
there's no solution here, this is just a problem.
Ultimately the towers that are offensive and in the center and
that means that there must be some there is a solution.
We must find it, you're not allowed to be lazy and say, well
it's just the problem. We have to move.
Now, that's an immoral position as far as I'm concerned.
So we will need to do a lot of work to find the solution and to
implement the solution and for and for those who are listening.
Now, the first episode we ever go with our Rabbi Rabbi Joshua,
my roof, we actually talked about the issue of the Iguana
crisis and he actually had some ideas which are interesting but
that's four. For you guys to check out and
was for the last question, been seized, right?
So we wanted to ask you about the phenomenon of cover-ups,
particularly in the religious World, your thoughtful.
It's how do we, what do we do about that?
Yeah, there's a cultural like, you know, it's kind of like in
Mafia culture where you know, the rats are not.
You're not a rat on each other and there's this strange culture
over there. Yes, yes.
And by the way, it's, it's not confined to the mafia been.
Unfortunately, it seeped into every institution with power in
life. I mean, it was obvious cases the
Catholic Church. The Catholic Church covered up
the sexual abuse by priests from very very, very long time.
I don't know who the PeopleSoft, there's a movie called Scott
wagon, chili dramatizes, the whole whole problem there and
the exposure of the problem that was Michael Keaton had Lisa.
And we see we see how unexpected.
Acceptable and harmful it is in others, right?
When you see what juicy the Catholic Church?
Oh, this is a terrible ones and we have the same phenomenon,
maybe not to the same extent, but we have the same compartment
as well in both Crazy Life in or even in modern Orthodox, like,
you know, protecting the rabbi's because somehow, if you don't
forget the brothers, the system will break or the institution
will grow. So we have a greater Fidelity to
the institution than 2 then to protecting the victims.
So we do. I have this.
I mean unfortunately I think We done a good job or at least
things are improving and cover-ups.
Are Woodson less acceptable today.
I have a daughter who lives in Brooklyn and we go shopping in a
very ultra-orthodox neighborhood in in.
I see posters on buildings in this ultra-orthodox neighborhood
saying, you know, if you've been sexually abused call the
following number, so the net community and thank God, it's
become more public and more acceptable and cover-ups are
less acceptable and there's some of the people but it plays all
of us. And ultimately it's About kind
of a power relation and ultimately it's coming down to
the fundamental values of Jewish ethics, which is of that person,
it's about compassion for people and people are being abused or
people's rights are being undermined, you know, Crescent
demands that we've come to their defense, not a defense of the
institution but the instant offense of the individual who's
created in the image of God. And it's about said, you know,
the victim the victim about Sexual abuse is entitled to just
as much protection just as much power as the greatest Rabbi
because that's what static is is fairness and equality.
And we have a ways to go to realize that that that aren't
over ideal. We're not there yet but we need
to keep moving along line toward that, I knew and I would just
say, you know, as a kind of summary of Jewish ethics that is
that really So all of these cases that we talk about in the
book, by the way, I talked about a number of cases in which
courts addition life has not stepped up to the full ideals of
ethics of classic and certainly put the best.
The best course. Summary of all of this I found
again it's in the Torah. It's a verse in me forever in
the prophet Micah and he says, as follows.
It says, God has told you. We're going to begin to know
what is good. Michael Wright and what God
demands of us. And here's what he says, It's a
certain spot to do justice certain but I thought you should
love this and you should you should love the compassion for
other people. That's what it's all about and
that's what Jewish law tries to do in Jerusalem.
And its best person to Jewish tradition as best price to do.
It's tries to enact Justice and fairness and equality and to
love and to be compassionate toward Understand that's the
basis of Jewish and ethics, and Lasting ideal toward, which
Jewish life should go and God forbid that we should see these
things as a kind of Gentile import.
That's got nothing to do with traditional.
Like this is really the foundation for what God wants of
us is Memphis in, this is what God asks of us to use and in are
challenges to is to behave that way and to move toward these
moral arguments. That's what being Godly is all
about. Beautiful, really.
We want to thank you so much. This is an amazing episode
because we really never touched on the issue of Jewish ethics.
And it's such an important topic.
It's often misunderstood. So to all of you, you should
really check out Rabbi corns book to be a holy people, Jewish
tradition and ethical values and we hope to do this again.
Hopefully, this is great. It's be my honor.
I mean, you know, we kind of fluid Here you know, we took two
things without a fully resolving them without his tail.
So we talked about some of these things and that's why people
need to buy the book so they just wetting the appetite.
Thank you. This part of the cheapest price
on the book is probably from Amazon.
So for anyone who is wondering why we're all wearing different
clothes. For this part of the podcast is
because we recorded this on two separate occasions, been see,
and I once we kind of got off the podcast, we were like we
totally missed an opportunity to bring up the following question.
So So how can we say that the Torah has all these Troublesome
statements quote-unquote that the rabbi's had to sanitize or
reinterpret in order to soften the blow yet?
Maintain that the laws are the Divine word of God Yes.
Well I wouldn't I wouldn't put it in the way of saying that
they have to sanitize it. I think that there's always,
this is an old question that you're asking the rambam,
maimonides in the morning, Buchan addresses this question,
essentially, what it what this question is when he talks about
animal sacrifices, his question is, how could God command animal
sacrifices? After the Jews left Egypt,
because after all animal sacrifices Are pagan very Pagan
institution. You know, so help me God command
in the Torah that we're obligated to bring em sacrifices
and maimonides gives the following answer.
He says that God was well, in effect dog was a very good
teacher, because he understood what his students could
understand. And what his students do not
understand. And the mentality of Nace realm,
when they left and drying, they left Egypt was that he couldn't
conceive of a religion that point in history, that didn't
include animal sacrifices and therefore, God, as a concession
to their kind of theological understanding he allowed animal
sacrifices, not because it was an ideal book.
Because people simply couldn't understand the religion, it That
time without animal sacrifices and therefore, he made a
concession to the, to the theological or religious level
of Jewish people when they left Egypt.
Now, this first of all, what it does is introduce history and
context into its vote into the Commandments and into the
tourist. So this is the answer of my
Maris is enormously controversial.
Because there's an implication, maimonides doesn't say it, but
the implication is that now that we have advanced beyond the
level of the Jews ulla Egypt, and we know we can understand
religion that includes prayer, not animal, sacrifices, but
prayer, you know, the time you place that in essence, replaced
the institution of animal sacrifices with prayer.
So what about us? Today, you know, that we no
longer need animal sacrifices, prayer is a higher level.
And therefore, the implication is, you know, now that we don't
need animal sacrifices, the homeless with goes away and
maybe when remote the machine, and the Messianic age, there's
another Temple. We wouldn't have animal
sacrifices. We would only have prayer.
That's the implication of what my monitor says.
So became very controversial because in effect would Moses is
saying, is that the tower evolves and some it's vote, were
were good for some points and some time in history, but later
in history, we may not need these bits with any move
anymore, which opens up a whole Pandora's Box about, which
Mitzvah that the eternity of Mitzvah, that's what my mommy
says. And, and I would say, the same
thing is true with many of them, it's folks that are written in
the Torah that we feel uncomfortable with today.
So for instance slavery or indentured servitude writing
mean the tour allows death, but I'm very few of us would be
comfortable with the notion of objects or slavery today for
polygamy or or executing Sabbath, violators McConnell a
Shabbat you know all of these things are in the Torah and yet
today we would prefer not to do them so it.
So here we have a situation and if you With the rabbis, did the
time. You'd agree a place in the
post-communist because they, in many ways in most of these
cases, they managed to either render the mitzvot inoperable,
for instance, here's an example. The the bends over the mitzvot
been so are more of the Torah and if you have a rebellious
child then the parents can bring him out to the court.
And if the Child is convicted, then there's a parent Stone him
to death, you know. Now that's he's very barbaric to
us and it was barbaric. I think the talmudic rabbis
because in effect what they did is they put all kinds of
conditions around this case so that it would never happen.
Would never happen. So the rabbi's in effect, they
couldn't erase the mitzvot because it's alright, as Divine.
So they just put all kinds of conditions around And so that we
would never implemented it sir and similarly with polygamy, you
know, that went out and at least in ashkenaz in the Middle Ages.
And with so, tired, in the institution where her husband
suspect, his wife of adultery used to the going and they go
through the ceremony. If she drinks the, the bitter
Waters, they the rabbi's eliminated these mitts votes
actually just on. If I can chime in over here with
the Sota. You can make the case that the
Torah Itself by creating this kind of ritual is, is also
protect its protecting women in the ancient world because
nothing's going to happen right there.
There's no a miracle had to happen according to this hotel,
a miracle had to happen in order to prove her guilt.
So the rabbi's in effect loaded the dice, you know, would they
understand Miracles? Don't happen very frequently.
So Don't hey, that was their way and that was the toe display
actually, a minimizing minimize the harsh punishment to the
suspected adulteress, but when further than the Torah right and
they eliminated, the eliminated Sota even before the destruction
of the second temple. So, all these Troublesome
Mitzvah would swim in Spokane, which seemed to be indicators of
more primitive cultures. We could say, earlier, cultures
the rabbi's found legal way. Ways to make sure that the midst
look whenever actually implemented.
And you see this in many, many minutes vote.
So, so what this shows you is that the, the conception of the
Torah that we have that the right at the time unit
Grandma's, it is not simply that.
I've been even misspoke and that's the way they are for
whole time but the the the system of mitzvoth, the system
of Jewish law that we have. Is actually a marriage to
marriage between God in the form of the written Torah and
rabbinic interpretation and rabbinic implementation, right?
So it's so, so the life of Tourism marriage, between God
and the rabbi's, and the rabbi's have a voice in this and the
rabbi's can then in a sense, Buying mitts vote that are
consistent with the culture of the times.
And when you think about it, seriously, I mean, this is the
greatness of maimonides. That's the only way that's over
can be Eternal. Because how could, how could the
Torah is a document be relevant to an ancient culture?
In which there was animal sacrifices and polygamy and
execution of Sabbath violators no way.
Way back then and still be relevant today to us.
Only if there's a there, Is a continuous legitimate system of
interpretation of the Torah. So that there really is a
marriage between the rabbi's and the and God and I would say that
most of the Troublesome, it's vote that that we look at today,
you know, have been kind of rooted out in a practical sense.
I think the one interesting aspect of all that hasn't yet
been routed out but it's in process.
Included out is the lack of equality between men and women.
That that's you mention that you mentioned that, it's all right.
And what you see today is, I think not only the lay people in
a row, but the graphics to are really thinking about this.
How can we, some raise the status of women in the eyes of
the Torah and observant Jewish life?
And we're in the middle of that process, where It's going to
end. I don't know when it's going to
end, I don't know. But what you see is there's a
certain ferment going on and they're the people with
different opinions and that's completely legitimate.
But we're in the midst of a historical process because it's
going to take time. If things always happens is
things Always by the way, you know this sounds like a very
radical idea. Value to having Thomas of them,
ran, by knocking, rabinovich who passed away long ago.
So, rocking a bit of it's all over, show them, what an essay
called artificial Torah in, which he explained that built
into the Tower built into Jewish law.
Is this notion of evolution? There's an evolution of values
that has limits. I'm not, you know, we couldn't
evolved to the situation where we could let's say legitimize
murder or legitimize adultery, but It's alright, his and
helicopters, always have undergone this kind of
historical Evolution and we're in the midst where the middle of
this evolutionary process. So I wouldn't say that the rabbi
sanitized, I think much more constructive way to put.
It is to say that the rabbi's in God are kind of a holy marriage
and a partnership in, which we also have a say in the Chimera
says that, the talmud says that, you know, that the militia
Miami, that's always no longer in heaven, but But we have a
voice, you know in the determination of what the Tobar
releases and how we should move it.
Yeah, and I think also, the fact that the Torah was meant to be,
especially if we follow the rabbinic tradition, this Dynamic
text, right? That, that continues to adapt to
the times and not be some kind of static other sects of Judaism
that have stuck to the more static approach are no longer
here to tell their story. So I find it to be really
fascinating and the issue. I think the trouble is that even
though we have this kind of system that is a dynamic, you
know, approach to law and everything.
There is no big thing how that doll today and there's no, you
know, there's no unified body that can kind of help us in
doing what we wanted at the process.
That process, we don't have a poem, we don't have a pulp on
top or, you know, so then the question is who America to make
these decisions. All right.
Well, you have to have a baby. They do have element or son had
drink or smoke at Faking. It Don't Ya?
Okay, son, a dream. Interesting.
So there was a very interesting historical development when this
idea of prohibiting, lagoons or kidney area grew up, is that
it's actually a great custom. It's in the Middle Ages when
that was introduced into Jewish life.
So at a certain point, the rabbi's wanted to prohibit
anything, any product that you could make cake Academy or
something that looked like the comments.
So they and some point they said that potatoes are pretty and it
made it has a rod. They made some kind of degree
that you just as we can't eat peas, we can't eat potatoes and
the people just simply didn't accept it, you know.
So they refused to accept it. They said it's just too
difficult that pace up with that potatoes, even though you can
make, you know, you can make wonderful cakes now, out of
potato starch, you don't need that meets or anything.
And so here's the sitch and there and therefore, the
rabbinic ruling just fine and they went away.
It wasn't balanced. So here we have a situation with
the people themselves, not even rabbinic authorities but the
people themselves, you know, determine how tell her life
should be lived. So it's not only a matter.
Has between the paralyzed. And and God, it's a marriage
between the Jewish people as a whole.
Thank you so much. Thank you so much for clearing
that up, and for expressing those Notions, it's extremely
important. You do fantastic work.
I'm looking forward to reading more of your work as time goes
by. Really, I really, really
enjoyed. I really, I really enjoyed the
material that I've read so far and I want to continue reading
it and we hope you have a chivato By the way, before we go
I didn't want to just came to my head now because you brought up
the ROM bombs, you know, example of animal sacrifice.
So, you know, people say who we like there are people make the
case that you know, who's in be interested in doing that and
we're beyond that we've evolved. But if you go to goto Crown
Heights and you know, when they do Kapa wrote that mean, you see
that? There's still this Instinct.
And a lot of people to kind of Do these kind of practices,
right? So I actually think that it's
the Torah. God understands human nature and
human nature really, doesn't change that much.
I don't think so, at least. Well, if you think about it, if
there was a bit of a dash and we were offering sacrifices, there
would be a lot less problems in different areas.
People would not be looking to the, you know, Sadiq figure
right to to get Are their inspiration or they wouldn't be
necessarily going to Graves or they wouldn't be.
There would be a centralized worship from that standpoint.
I do think it does and it's in a very wise Way by having a temple
and having the sacrifices in the temple.
It would, it would centralized worship.
And minimize the amount of times that people would obviously, we
had periods, where they would the No, they would, they would
banish all the back backyard by moment, right?
They didn't want people doing sacrifices in their own homes
and everything. So there was clearly a way the
beit hamikdash serve that purpose of kind of minimizing
the amount of times people do it and also, you know, getting
letting people get out of their system, but it's such a slap,
you know, you get tired of it and the hope is that over time
people just Move on. Right?
We don't we don't want to dwell too much on this stuff.
Right. There is a lot of psychological
and spiritual Advantage having a central class.
I mean, we are still human beings question blood and live
in the world of space and time and we need physical things to
inspire us in many ways. When you see this at the cartel,
no woman go. Tell is just phone.
I mean, it's just that people need to be near something
physical with it. The, the religiously inspired, I
personally would not do very comfortable with the day to make
that she was doing sacrifices animal sacrifices.
And, you know, I don't know what the people in Los Angeles or
even in Brooklyn or even in New Rochelle, you know, would feel
if they had they would be great for a LOL, but I'm not so sure
it would it would I'm coming from the angle that I that there
is religious fanaticism religious extremism and to have
that religious fanaticism in a sense prescribed and centralized
and not like gone wild. There's something to that to
consider maybe wouldn't be for everyone maybe but you get what
you get where I'm coming from though with Yes.
Actually you really you know, that's very good because you're
very close to with the rum bum says, you know, he says that You
think that there was a baton exhaust because it's warm only
because because animal sacrifices are more holding up
think again because the truth is that the base to make doctors
away to constrained and to put limits on sacrifice where there
you go to sacrifice their, you can only do when the Cohen was
there, right FEMA, which is a higher level tool.
You can even do in Brooklyn, you know, you can do anywhere.
So so that you know, that's what you said is very, very Close to
what the rambam said. That's true.
Thank you so much. This was awesome.
Amazing. And thank you for calling back
on and doing this for us. We hope to do this again.
Yes, there's a lot. I don't be my pleasure and good
luck. It's a wonderful book instead of
being millions millions of listeners because it's important
for people to have a, really, serious and honest,
understanding of Torah. Thank you very much.
We really appreciate that. Okay, final question, mr.
Man, they help you. Thank you very much.
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