1 00:00:01,440 --> 00:00:05,560 Welcome to Judaism Demystified, a podcast for the perplexed. 2 00:00:06,080 --> 00:00:09,320 Join us as we explore some of the most fascinating Jewish and 3 00:00:09,320 --> 00:00:12,200 Torah related topics with our esteemed guests. 4 00:00:12,640 --> 00:00:15,560 By tackling some of the biggest questions you likely won't find 5 00:00:15,560 --> 00:00:19,000 addressed elsewhere, we aim to shed light on important issues 6 00:00:19,280 --> 00:00:21,600 and inspire a return to the fundamentals. 7 00:00:21,920 --> 00:00:29,160 Enjoy the show. Welcome to Judaism demystified 8 00:00:29,160 --> 00:00:31,880 Rabbi Whoopi. In these times, interfaith 9 00:00:31,880 --> 00:00:35,240 dialogue is a critical is as critical as interfaith dialogue. 10 00:00:35,240 --> 00:00:38,400 Especially after October 7th. The Jewish people must come 11 00:00:38,400 --> 00:00:40,600 together to understand and support one another, breaking 12 00:00:40,600 --> 00:00:42,520 down walls that divide our communities. 13 00:00:42,840 --> 00:00:46,160 This conversation aims to foster mutual understanding and unity 14 00:00:46,160 --> 00:00:48,080 among Jews of diverse perspectives. 15 00:00:48,480 --> 00:00:51,360 So I want to thank you for coming on and for the first 16 00:00:51,360 --> 00:00:53,800 question. You've often spoken of 17 00:00:53,800 --> 00:00:56,880 Maimonides as the most important Jewish thinker to you. 18 00:00:57,400 --> 00:01:00,280 His teachings deeply resonate within the within Orthodox 19 00:01:00,280 --> 00:01:05,440 Judaism, yet his philosophy also holds universal Jewish appeal. 20 00:01:07,120 --> 00:01:10,400 How do you see Maimonides ideas influencing not only your 21 00:01:10,400 --> 00:01:13,560 personal approach, but also for the broader Jewish world in the 22 00:01:13,560 --> 00:01:17,160 modern age? So it's a large question to 23 00:01:17,160 --> 00:01:20,440 begin with, because Maimonides is also probably the most 24 00:01:20,440 --> 00:01:28,840 complex figure in in the history of Jewish thought, although he 25 00:01:28,840 --> 00:01:32,200 has some rivals. But I would say that the the 26 00:01:32,200 --> 00:01:38,720 legacy of Maimonides is it is separate but complementary. 27 00:01:39,000 --> 00:01:42,040 That is, you know, there's the Maimonides of the Mishnotaur and 28 00:01:42,040 --> 00:01:46,080 the Maimonides of the Mara Nebufe and and the my mommies of 29 00:01:46,080 --> 00:01:51,240 the Mishnatura is somebody who was trying as best he could to 30 00:01:51,240 --> 00:01:55,160 make the law as simple as possible for the man in the 31 00:01:55,160 --> 00:01:57,840 street. So it's written in simple 32 00:01:57,840 --> 00:02:00,960 missionaic Hebrew. He doesn't give sources because 33 00:02:00,960 --> 00:02:03,520 he doesn't think that the average person is going to go 34 00:02:03,520 --> 00:02:08,320 delve into all the sources. He arbitrates very complicated. 35 00:02:08,639 --> 00:02:10,639 Tom Munich disputes, but you don't know it when you're 36 00:02:10,639 --> 00:02:13,360 reading it because he's just saying do this, don't do that. 37 00:02:14,560 --> 00:02:18,040 And that my mom of these is a communal leader who tries to 38 00:02:18,040 --> 00:02:22,440 help people, who tries to make Judaism as accessible as 39 00:02:22,440 --> 00:02:26,520 possible. And that if if that were my mom 40 00:02:26,520 --> 00:02:29,880 of these alone by a new, I mean, that's already an amazing 41 00:02:29,880 --> 00:02:33,920 achievement. Obviously, in addition to 42 00:02:33,920 --> 00:02:37,040 everything else that he did that we know about, you know, about 43 00:02:37,040 --> 00:02:40,360 his communal work and about his being the physician to the 44 00:02:40,360 --> 00:02:44,280 Sultan and the famous letter that he wrote to Ibn Tibin 45 00:02:44,280 --> 00:02:46,760 about, you know, you can come visit me if you want. 46 00:02:46,760 --> 00:02:49,680 But this is my schedule. And his schedule puts us all to 47 00:02:49,680 --> 00:02:51,800 shame. And in the meantime, he was also 48 00:02:51,800 --> 00:02:54,920 writing the mission of Torah. And the more in the booth, But I 49 00:02:54,920 --> 00:02:56,840 think the Maimonides that we're referring to in this 50 00:02:56,840 --> 00:02:59,600 conversation much more is the Maimonides of the Guide to the 51 00:02:59,600 --> 00:03:05,440 Perplex, the more in the booth. And that Rambam, that Maimonides 52 00:03:05,440 --> 00:03:11,440 is someone who is open to the wisdom of the world in an 53 00:03:11,440 --> 00:03:15,120 attempt to show the ways in which that wisdom is challenged, 54 00:03:15,320 --> 00:03:17,040 channeled through the Jewish tradition. 55 00:03:17,800 --> 00:03:20,520 So he says that you should accept the truth from wherever 56 00:03:20,520 --> 00:03:23,760 it comes. But his assumption is that the 57 00:03:23,760 --> 00:03:27,160 deep truths of the world are all found in the Torah. 58 00:03:28,280 --> 00:03:31,280 And I say the deep truths because it doesn't mean every, 59 00:03:31,280 --> 00:03:34,480 you know, it might be that the Torah doesn't tell you that this 60 00:03:34,480 --> 00:03:37,960 medicine is the right thing to take for this ailment, but the 61 00:03:37,960 --> 00:03:40,680 deep truths of life are found in the Torah. 62 00:03:41,120 --> 00:03:48,480 And so the, the dual, I would say the dual fidelity that the 63 00:03:48,480 --> 00:03:52,800 Rambam has to intellectual openness and also Jewish 64 00:03:52,800 --> 00:03:57,360 normativity is remarkable and inspiring. 65 00:03:57,720 --> 00:04:03,640 And when you see the different kinds of scholars, Ashkenazi and 66 00:04:03,640 --> 00:04:08,280 Svarti, I mean, in our day, you know, Hahem Faur and, and, and 67 00:04:08,280 --> 00:04:11,440 Isidor Tversky write very different books about Rambam, 68 00:04:11,720 --> 00:04:16,680 but both of them grapple with both sides of this, this protean 69 00:04:16,680 --> 00:04:18,920 figure. And I don't think that it is 70 00:04:18,920 --> 00:04:22,560 possible really to take Judaism seriously without at least 71 00:04:22,560 --> 00:04:25,440 dipping your toe in the sea of the Rambam. 72 00:04:25,440 --> 00:04:28,200 Very. Well said. 73 00:04:28,760 --> 00:04:31,040 We definitely, that definitely resonates with us. 74 00:04:31,040 --> 00:04:36,000 And what I, what do I, I want to know is this modern generation, 75 00:04:36,000 --> 00:04:40,640 you know, we're, we're dealing with a lot of new challenges and 76 00:04:40,640 --> 00:04:43,120 one of them obviously is atheism, skepticism. 77 00:04:43,120 --> 00:04:47,000 So I feel like the Rambam is just a very useful kind of 78 00:04:47,000 --> 00:04:51,360 weapon, you know, to kind of fight back, go the same way. 79 00:04:51,960 --> 00:04:57,080 Also because, yes, Also because the Rambam insists that Judaism 80 00:04:57,080 --> 00:05:01,680 is consonant with reason and and that you don't, you know, at the 81 00:05:02,240 --> 00:05:06,880 look at the core of Christianity is a belief that is deliberately 82 00:05:06,880 --> 00:05:11,400 non rational, the three and one and one is 3 and so on. 83 00:05:11,720 --> 00:05:16,000 There's nothing essentially non rational that a Jew has to 84 00:05:16,000 --> 00:05:18,320 believe in order to be a Jew, right? 85 00:05:18,520 --> 00:05:22,760 I mean, miracles we could have a long discussion about, but even, 86 00:05:23,080 --> 00:05:26,360 but but even that is not the core belief, right? 87 00:05:26,360 --> 00:05:30,400 The core belief is, you know, Mahmoud Harsi and I, and there's 88 00:05:30,400 --> 00:05:33,040 nothing irrational. You might say it did happen. 89 00:05:33,040 --> 00:05:34,360 It didn't happen. It happened this way. 90 00:05:34,360 --> 00:05:36,280 It happened that way. But there's nothing about it 91 00:05:36,280 --> 00:05:39,080 that demands you put your reason aside in order to believe it. 92 00:05:39,480 --> 00:05:42,320 And that, I think is a great advantage as a tradition. 93 00:05:43,160 --> 00:05:46,280 Absolutely. So this brings me to the next 94 00:05:46,320 --> 00:05:49,720 question, which is the evolution of New Atheism. 95 00:05:49,960 --> 00:05:53,240 So in recent years, New Atheism seems to have evolved, with 96 00:05:53,240 --> 00:05:56,520 figures like Christopher Hitchens giving way to voices 97 00:05:56,520 --> 00:06:00,440 like Alex O'Connor. How do you perceive the shift 98 00:06:00,800 --> 00:06:04,120 and what impact do you think it has on dialogues about faith, 99 00:06:04,120 --> 00:06:06,080 especially within a Jewish context? 100 00:06:07,040 --> 00:06:12,320 One of the things that I think is true is that new atheism is 101 00:06:12,320 --> 00:06:18,680 not quite as biting and angry. And I find that interesting. 102 00:06:18,680 --> 00:06:23,080 And I think actually that this, a lot of the anger that drove 103 00:06:23,080 --> 00:06:28,400 the old New Atheism, if you will, came from 911, came from 104 00:06:28,400 --> 00:06:34,120 the recognition that there was a faith out there that was 105 00:06:34,360 --> 00:06:40,480 destructive of so much of what was Western civilization. 106 00:06:40,480 --> 00:06:44,800 That's jihadism, the jihadist branch of Islam that was that 107 00:06:44,800 --> 00:06:48,920 was intent on being anti western, anti Israel, anti 108 00:06:48,920 --> 00:06:51,280 America. And and so there was this 109 00:06:51,280 --> 00:06:54,360 tremendous push back because that's where Sam Harris wrote 110 00:06:54,360 --> 00:06:58,520 his books in the wake of 911, so Christopher Hitchens and so on. 111 00:06:58,520 --> 00:07:03,640 Now I think the question is much more is this true or not an 112 00:07:03,640 --> 00:07:06,960 issue good for society as opposed to we are fighting this 113 00:07:07,200 --> 00:07:09,640 great civilizational battle against faith. 114 00:07:11,360 --> 00:07:16,840 And, and, and part of the problem that that the new 115 00:07:16,840 --> 00:07:21,440 Atheism has also, which I don't think the old new atheism took 116 00:07:21,440 --> 00:07:27,560 on quite as much, is that materialist science is just much 117 00:07:27,560 --> 00:07:32,360 more complicated than people used to think it was. 118 00:07:32,640 --> 00:07:39,560 And quantum physics is really not straight materialism. 119 00:07:39,960 --> 00:07:44,280 And once you start to get into the higher reaches of 120 00:07:44,280 --> 00:07:47,480 speculation about the world, all of a sudden, you know, 121 00:07:47,480 --> 00:07:51,320 everything's solid, melts into air, to use an old phrase. 122 00:07:51,600 --> 00:07:56,120 And, and we recognize that the world is much more complicated 123 00:07:56,120 --> 00:07:59,960 and much deeper. And, and as the great biologist 124 00:07:59,960 --> 00:08:05,280 JBS Haldane said, it's the world is not only queerer than we 125 00:08:05,280 --> 00:08:07,600 imagined, it's queerer than we can imagine. 126 00:08:08,000 --> 00:08:13,080 So once you open up that box and you say, Oh my God, I actually 127 00:08:13,080 --> 00:08:16,600 can't figure this all out. I think that there is a 128 00:08:16,640 --> 00:08:21,040 possibility of faith that's much harder to just slam shut then 129 00:08:21,040 --> 00:08:24,840 seems to be in the days of Christopher Hitchens or or his 130 00:08:24,840 --> 00:08:27,440 more illustrious predecessors like Bertrand Russell. 131 00:08:29,040 --> 00:08:32,000 Absolutely. Devaka, you have anything you 132 00:08:32,000 --> 00:08:33,480 wanted to follow up with that as well? 133 00:08:34,440 --> 00:08:37,280 Yeah, I think those are such great points about like the new 134 00:08:37,280 --> 00:08:40,480 New Atheism being a bit less biting than the old New Atheism. 135 00:08:40,880 --> 00:08:44,800 I, I remember that much of the much of like the Four Horsemen's 136 00:08:45,160 --> 00:08:48,960 sort of, you know, talking points were about how religion 137 00:08:48,960 --> 00:08:54,360 is what drives this, this kind of like really, really dangerous 138 00:08:54,360 --> 00:08:57,360 ideologies. And now it's becoming a more 139 00:08:57,360 --> 00:09:00,720 respectable position. I think that the world as it 140 00:09:00,720 --> 00:09:05,680 opens up and as we see more and more complexity, it's becoming a 141 00:09:05,680 --> 00:09:08,160 more respectable position to hold. 142 00:09:08,160 --> 00:09:12,280 And that brings me to my sort of the next question, I suppose, is 143 00:09:12,280 --> 00:09:17,440 that, you know, nowadays you sort of branch off of the New 144 00:09:17,440 --> 00:09:20,960 atheist figures and you get people who are more, they speak 145 00:09:20,960 --> 00:09:23,120 in religious terms, but they're not really religious. 146 00:09:23,120 --> 00:09:25,440 They're more like culturally religious, I think is the term. 147 00:09:25,800 --> 00:09:28,800 So you have people like Dennis Prager and Jordan Peterson. 148 00:09:29,120 --> 00:09:32,360 They champion a lot of values which are rooted in religious 149 00:09:32,360 --> 00:09:35,000 traditions, and they don't necessarily embrace full 150 00:09:35,000 --> 00:09:37,400 religious observance. What do you think of that 151 00:09:37,400 --> 00:09:40,040 approach? Can can somebody meaningfully 152 00:09:40,040 --> 00:09:42,000 uphold a religious message without the religious 153 00:09:42,000 --> 00:09:43,720 commitments that typically come with it? 154 00:09:44,120 --> 00:09:47,920 Or is the religious commitment part and parcel of the message? 155 00:09:48,120 --> 00:09:51,960 So it's a great question and I want to know when you say 156 00:09:51,960 --> 00:09:56,160 religious commitment, Dennison and and Jordan are different, 157 00:09:56,600 --> 00:09:58,720 right, Because one is Jewish and one is not. 158 00:09:59,240 --> 00:10:03,200 So the Jewish tradition is somewhat different from 159 00:10:03,880 --> 00:10:05,640 Christianity. And I don't want to speak for 160 00:10:05,640 --> 00:10:09,960 Christianity, obviously for lots of reasons, but I would say this 161 00:10:09,960 --> 00:10:14,360 is this is what I this is like my go to answer about that 162 00:10:14,360 --> 00:10:19,960 question for Jewish groups, which is the problem with 163 00:10:19,960 --> 00:10:25,120 maintaining Judaism in the absence of specific ritual 164 00:10:25,120 --> 00:10:29,240 behavior is that there's nothing uniquely Jewish about being a 165 00:10:29,240 --> 00:10:32,000 good person. There's nothing uniquely Jewish 166 00:10:32,000 --> 00:10:34,480 about being ethical. There's nothing uniquely Jewish 167 00:10:34,480 --> 00:10:37,320 about being kind. Notice I say uniquely, it is 168 00:10:37,320 --> 00:10:39,600 Jewish to be kind. It is Jewish to be good. 169 00:10:39,600 --> 00:10:42,040 It is Jewish to be ethical, all those things. 170 00:10:42,280 --> 00:10:44,600 But you can do all those things and not be Jewish. 171 00:10:45,360 --> 00:10:48,680 It is uniquely Jewish to like Chavez scandals. 172 00:10:49,160 --> 00:10:51,440 It's uniquely Jewish to keep kosher. 173 00:10:51,960 --> 00:10:56,600 So if you want to maintain Judaism as a tradition, I think 174 00:10:56,600 --> 00:11:01,760 you have to have behaviors that distinguish it from other ways 175 00:11:01,760 --> 00:11:03,760 of being a good person in the world. 176 00:11:05,040 --> 00:11:08,920 And I don't want to speak for Dennis particularly. 177 00:11:08,920 --> 00:11:12,360 I don't know what his level of observance is or he's not now. 178 00:11:13,440 --> 00:11:19,560 But I do believe that you need a a uniquely Jewish pattern of 179 00:11:19,560 --> 00:11:24,240 behavior in order to sustain a Jewish life. 180 00:11:24,240 --> 00:11:29,360 And and without it, it just dissolves into I'm a good 181 00:11:29,360 --> 00:11:33,120 person. Well said. 182 00:11:33,440 --> 00:11:35,720 Yeah, Yeah, I see. I see what you're saying there. 183 00:11:36,880 --> 00:11:39,800 I suppose I should have differentiated between Dennis 184 00:11:39,800 --> 00:11:41,640 Prager and Jordan Peterson. I I guess. 185 00:11:41,640 --> 00:11:45,600 So what is your take on on people like Jordan Peterson's 186 00:11:45,600 --> 00:11:48,400 message, Right. Like is there they seem to they 187 00:11:48,400 --> 00:11:53,400 seem to specifically extrapolate the lessons of the Bible and 188 00:11:53,400 --> 00:11:56,480 very, very forcefully in some in some ways, you know, and very 189 00:11:56,480 --> 00:11:59,240 deeply in in ways that you may not hear from a religious 190 00:11:59,240 --> 00:12:01,320 person. So what do you? 191 00:12:01,400 --> 00:12:06,480 So I, I look, I, I, I reviewed Peterson's second book. 192 00:12:06,480 --> 00:12:08,960 I have not reviewed his book yet on the Bible. 193 00:12:08,960 --> 00:12:10,760 I mean, I might at some point, I don't know, I'm reading. 194 00:12:11,440 --> 00:12:16,040 But here is my impression of Peterson, and I'm perfectly 195 00:12:16,040 --> 00:12:18,960 willing to be wrong because, as I said, I'm read his book on the 196 00:12:18,960 --> 00:12:20,560 Bible, although I've heard him speak about it. 197 00:12:21,960 --> 00:12:27,640 My impression is that he does not want to be pinned down to 198 00:12:27,840 --> 00:12:31,120 specific Jewish convictions. He doesn't want to say this is 199 00:12:31,120 --> 00:12:34,720 true, This is not true in the sense in which we most usually 200 00:12:34,720 --> 00:12:37,720 understand truth to be a correspondence with reality. 201 00:12:38,560 --> 00:12:44,400 But he does want the authority of the religious texts to be 202 00:12:45,280 --> 00:12:49,680 full. And and that's hard, a hard 203 00:12:49,680 --> 00:12:53,040 match to make. I get the authority, but I don't 204 00:12:53,040 --> 00:12:56,440 necessarily affirm fully its veracity. 205 00:12:57,520 --> 00:13:00,600 And so it's not that that's never done. 206 00:13:00,600 --> 00:13:05,120 I mean, the rabbi's often cast out on this or that or the other 207 00:13:05,480 --> 00:13:09,040 thing by time still or, or created with Rashem and saying 208 00:13:09,040 --> 00:13:12,760 we should learn from this. But it's a really hard match to 209 00:13:12,760 --> 00:13:15,800 make. And I understand why for some 210 00:13:15,800 --> 00:13:21,160 people that wouldn't work so. Fascinating. 211 00:13:21,200 --> 00:13:24,680 I, I see what you're saying and I, I think that, I mean, I've 212 00:13:24,680 --> 00:13:27,880 followed, I followed your work and New Atheist and Jonah 213 00:13:27,880 --> 00:13:30,880 Peterson for a while. And I think that's a very valid 214 00:13:30,880 --> 00:13:36,360 assessment. And I one of the things he says, 215 00:13:36,360 --> 00:13:40,400 and it'll this will blend into the next question is he says 216 00:13:40,400 --> 00:13:42,920 that there is a brilliance in the story and he loves this 217 00:13:42,920 --> 00:13:46,160 story of Cain and Abel. You know, he says in 10 verses, 218 00:13:46,920 --> 00:13:50,920 a writer, the writer of Cain and Abel did what no other author 219 00:13:50,920 --> 00:13:53,160 could ever do. And that that authority that he 220 00:13:53,160 --> 00:13:55,720 wants, that you're speaking about is, is present in that 221 00:13:55,720 --> 00:14:00,560 sentence. So with with that in mind, there 222 00:14:00,560 --> 00:14:05,600 seems to be this desire for the authority of morality, for the 223 00:14:05,600 --> 00:14:08,840 authority of all these philosophical questions to be 224 00:14:08,840 --> 00:14:11,240 rooted in biblical claims of some sort. 225 00:14:11,560 --> 00:14:14,120 Yeah, I know you just mentioned that. 226 00:14:14,120 --> 00:14:18,520 It's not a unique thing to be Jewish, to be, to be a good 227 00:14:18,520 --> 00:14:21,000 person. It's not unique to be a good 228 00:14:21,000 --> 00:14:24,600 person to Judaism. It's Jews are good, but that's 229 00:14:24,600 --> 00:14:26,320 not what you need to be a good person. 230 00:14:26,320 --> 00:14:32,400 So there's a lot of sort of pushback on, on the, on the 231 00:14:32,400 --> 00:14:34,040 Bible being the force of morality. 232 00:14:34,040 --> 00:14:36,360 You know, there's a lot of questions about morality and the 233 00:14:36,360 --> 00:14:40,840 Bible's words and teachings. So we just want to go over some 234 00:14:40,840 --> 00:14:43,200 of these problems and questions with you. 235 00:14:44,800 --> 00:14:48,840 So like for many of people, the problem of evil and their other 236 00:14:48,840 --> 00:14:51,560 challenges of faith are significant barriers to belief. 237 00:14:51,960 --> 00:14:55,440 So how would you respond to these following points about 238 00:14:55,960 --> 00:15:00,880 philosophical problems of evil? So one is gratuitous evil. 239 00:15:01,320 --> 00:15:05,880 Why would a loving God allow seemingly senseless suffering, 240 00:15:06,240 --> 00:15:07,640 right? And, you know, there's the, 241 00:15:08,000 --> 00:15:12,280 there's obviously natural suffering for which there is no 242 00:15:12,320 --> 00:15:15,200 human cause of sin, some sort that we can see. 243 00:15:15,560 --> 00:15:19,320 There's gratuitous suffering as a whole category of its own. 244 00:15:20,520 --> 00:15:24,240 Another question that often comes up is the geography that 245 00:15:24,240 --> 00:15:27,400 determines very heavily whether you would be a believer, right? 246 00:15:27,400 --> 00:15:30,560 You know, we can tell statistically if based on where 247 00:15:30,560 --> 00:15:33,840 you're born, you know, how likely you are to believe in God 248 00:15:33,840 --> 00:15:39,360 or a certain variation of religion very with very precise 249 00:15:39,360 --> 00:15:42,440 metrics. And the the final question, and 250 00:15:42,440 --> 00:15:45,120 I think this is a little bit newer and I actually I've only 251 00:15:45,200 --> 00:15:46,720 recently become familiar with this one. 252 00:15:47,120 --> 00:15:49,600 This is called the non resistant non belief problem. 253 00:15:49,960 --> 00:15:54,520 So the idea is that a loving God would want to have a 254 00:15:54,520 --> 00:15:58,400 relationship with all who seek him, and there would be no such 255 00:15:58,400 --> 00:16:01,680 concept of a loving God who is not available to those who seek 256 00:16:01,680 --> 00:16:05,320 him out earnestly. So you know, with these 3 257 00:16:05,320 --> 00:16:08,680 problems, you know, and there are plenty more, you know, how 258 00:16:08,680 --> 00:16:11,600 can we address this problem and how can the Bible sort of maybe 259 00:16:11,600 --> 00:16:14,440 help us along those lines? So that's a really good array. 260 00:16:15,120 --> 00:16:20,240 My answer to the first one of fortuitous suffering is that if 261 00:16:20,680 --> 00:16:24,840 if good and evil. That is, I'm talking about good 262 00:16:24,840 --> 00:16:30,040 and evil in terms of suffering, pain, bliss, happiness. 263 00:16:30,360 --> 00:16:33,680 If they were not randomly distributed in the world, there 264 00:16:33,680 --> 00:16:37,440 would be no possibility of human goodness, as if good things 265 00:16:37,440 --> 00:16:39,960 happen to good people and bad things happen to bad people, 266 00:16:39,960 --> 00:16:41,800 everyone would be good. But the reason they would be 267 00:16:41,800 --> 00:16:43,440 good is so that they would get rewarded. 268 00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:47,680 The only possibility of being good is to be good without 269 00:16:47,680 --> 00:16:50,120 knowing whether you'll be rewarded or not. 270 00:16:50,680 --> 00:16:54,320 So randomness is an essential part of goodness, I think. 271 00:16:55,040 --> 00:16:59,720 And that's a really hard system. And I know when someone is 272 00:16:59,720 --> 00:17:01,720 suffering, you don't say that, right? 273 00:17:01,720 --> 00:17:05,040 But if you ask me in a detached manner, that's the best 274 00:17:05,160 --> 00:17:10,599 explanation I know for why it is that that the world is unfair, 275 00:17:10,599 --> 00:17:15,440 which I believe it is. As to the second question of 276 00:17:15,480 --> 00:17:19,280 like, if I were born in New Delhi at the Hindu, which I 277 00:17:19,280 --> 00:17:24,800 suspect is true, my feeling is that there are many, many 278 00:17:24,800 --> 00:17:31,080 avenues to God and that religions are not so much 279 00:17:31,240 --> 00:17:35,760 propositionally correct as they are directionally correct. 280 00:17:35,760 --> 00:17:40,480 That is, if it, if a tradition allows you to connect with that 281 00:17:40,480 --> 00:17:44,520 which is greater than yourself, whether you call it God or 282 00:17:44,520 --> 00:17:49,880 something else, that that's, that's what is needed in this 283 00:17:49,880 --> 00:17:52,120 world. And and this is reinforced. 284 00:17:52,240 --> 00:17:54,960 This isn't much easier argument for a Jew to make, I think, than 285 00:17:55,000 --> 00:17:57,640 other religions because we're not a proselytizing religion. 286 00:17:57,920 --> 00:18:01,240 We never felt like to have a relationship with God, you had 287 00:18:01,240 --> 00:18:03,880 to be Jewish. I mean, it's clear in the Bible, 288 00:18:03,880 --> 00:18:05,960 right? Malkhita has a relationship with 289 00:18:05,960 --> 00:18:08,960 the one God is not Jewish. Yet from the very beginning, we 290 00:18:08,960 --> 00:18:12,120 always said like, you can be anything. 291 00:18:12,320 --> 00:18:14,880 And if you have a relationship with God, you have a 292 00:18:14,880 --> 00:18:20,480 relationship with God. The third question reminds me of 293 00:18:20,480 --> 00:18:26,880 what of what Arthur Cohen, who is a theologian, once said about 294 00:18:26,960 --> 00:18:30,920 Abraham Joshua Hescher. He said he has no feeling for 295 00:18:30,920 --> 00:18:34,800 the tragedy of unbelief. In other words, the person who 296 00:18:34,800 --> 00:18:37,520 wants to believe but can't get there. 297 00:18:38,080 --> 00:18:44,760 And I do think that there is a sense in which faith is a talent 298 00:18:45,040 --> 00:18:50,400 like music or art that some people are just really good at. 299 00:18:51,520 --> 00:18:54,680 I know people who have never had a doubt about God in their 300 00:18:54,680 --> 00:18:56,560 entire lives. They just never have. 301 00:18:57,000 --> 00:19:01,000 And, and I think of them as sort of like Mozart's Vitafone. 302 00:19:01,000 --> 00:19:04,040 They're like they, they just believe and they've always 303 00:19:04,040 --> 00:19:05,400 believed and they always will believe. 304 00:19:05,400 --> 00:19:06,680 And that's it. And there's nothing more to 305 00:19:06,680 --> 00:19:10,160 discuss. I am not myself that way and 306 00:19:10,160 --> 00:19:14,600 most people are not that way. But I have no problem saying to 307 00:19:14,600 --> 00:19:19,960 the person who finds it hard to believe that actually for a lot 308 00:19:19,960 --> 00:19:26,080 of people believe takes work. And so, you know, I, I mean the 309 00:19:26,080 --> 00:19:29,080 old story about the, the guy who asked the rabbi, why should I 310 00:19:29,120 --> 00:19:31,120 put on filling? And he said, well, you have to 311 00:19:31,120 --> 00:19:33,720 put on filling for a year for me to answer that question. 312 00:19:34,080 --> 00:19:37,680 There is something in engaging in the community and the 313 00:19:37,680 --> 00:19:42,720 tradition and so on that helps people, I think, answer that 314 00:19:42,720 --> 00:19:45,640 question. But I want to, I want to add 1 315 00:19:45,640 --> 00:19:53,520 caveat, which is it's true that at the center of religion is 1's 316 00:19:53,520 --> 00:19:58,680 relationship with God, but it is also true that so much of what 317 00:19:58,680 --> 00:20:05,960 he, of what you feel about your tradition has to do with how 318 00:20:06,120 --> 00:20:10,200 what human beings introduce it to you and how they introduce it 319 00:20:10,200 --> 00:20:12,680 to you. So I know people, I've had 320 00:20:12,680 --> 00:20:14,280 people. I, I know this is not going to 321 00:20:14,280 --> 00:20:17,040 shock you. I cannot count the number of 322 00:20:17,040 --> 00:20:21,640 people who have said to me things like when I was 12, the 323 00:20:21,640 --> 00:20:24,040 rabbi yelled at me. So I don't believe anymore. 324 00:20:25,360 --> 00:20:30,800 And I want to say to them, first of all, that the rabbi is not 325 00:20:30,800 --> 00:20:34,760 judious. Second of all, the rabbi's 326 00:20:34,760 --> 00:20:38,000 allowed to have a bad day, or there are bad rabbis, like 327 00:20:38,000 --> 00:20:40,960 they're about everything else. Or maybe the rabbi's not good 328 00:20:40,960 --> 00:20:43,080 with kids, or God knows what else. 329 00:20:43,400 --> 00:20:49,720 But but people's experience of religion is sometimes so tied to 330 00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:56,240 human figures, parents, rabbis, priest ministers, that sometimes 331 00:20:56,240 --> 00:21:01,600 we have to get them to overcome their initial rejection and 332 00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:05,520 rediscover something that they think has nothing for them. 333 00:21:06,320 --> 00:21:09,760 We just recently had an episode with rabbit David Aaron and we 334 00:21:09,760 --> 00:21:14,440 were discussing the phenomenon of, of the Derek, which is, you 335 00:21:14,440 --> 00:21:17,920 know, from his experience. And I, I, I feel the same way 336 00:21:17,920 --> 00:21:21,960 that a lot of people who, who you know, leave the path, it's 337 00:21:21,960 --> 00:21:25,280 often because of something experiential rather than 338 00:21:25,280 --> 00:21:26,240 something. Absolutely. 339 00:21:27,520 --> 00:21:30,960 I can't grasp this idea of God. That's often as an excuse, 340 00:21:30,960 --> 00:21:33,440 maybe, but really they went through something, some type of. 341 00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:38,160 Trauma I, I had a my Uber driver, sure. 342 00:21:38,160 --> 00:21:43,480 Well, my Uber driver says to me, you know, when I came to 343 00:21:43,480 --> 00:21:48,400 America, I had nothing. And I went with my relatives to 344 00:21:48,400 --> 00:21:51,760 show and I always went to show. I went to show every day. 345 00:21:51,800 --> 00:21:55,520 I went with my relatives to show and the rabbi saw it was new and 346 00:21:55,520 --> 00:21:59,480 he gave me an aliyah and then he asked me for a donation and I 347 00:21:59,480 --> 00:22:01,880 said, if that's what this is about, I'm dumb. 348 00:22:01,920 --> 00:22:03,800 And I've not stepped into a show since. 349 00:22:04,600 --> 00:22:06,520 And we spent the whole Uber ride with my St. 350 00:22:06,520 --> 00:22:11,800 I'm like Shmuel, you know, it's like, that's not right, but but 351 00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:14,080 it's amazing how often that happens. 352 00:22:14,120 --> 00:22:17,920 And and that also that means that people who are religious 353 00:22:18,080 --> 00:22:23,000 have to redouble their efforts to be decent and welcoming, 354 00:22:23,040 --> 00:22:26,760 because it's amazing how much power you have to turn people 355 00:22:26,760 --> 00:22:31,000 off and the opposite and, and to bring them closer to do care. 356 00:22:32,520 --> 00:22:34,960 I just wanted to add to what you said before. 357 00:22:34,960 --> 00:22:37,760 Actually, we're Speaking of the Rambam, but he talks about your 358 00:22:37,760 --> 00:22:40,760 Christianity and Islam as being, you know, maybe not the truth, 359 00:22:40,760 --> 00:22:43,840 the truth, but it's, it's a positive development for mankind 360 00:22:43,840 --> 00:22:48,400 to the, for when you know, that we reach the, you know, 361 00:22:48,520 --> 00:22:52,480 Messianic age, there will be an understanding of God because of 362 00:22:52,480 --> 00:22:54,760 all this. But also I think that, you know, 363 00:22:54,760 --> 00:22:58,080 as an Orthodox Jew and you being a Conservative Jew, what I look 364 00:22:58,080 --> 00:23:00,240 at, you know, sometimes unfortunately what could happen 365 00:23:00,240 --> 00:23:03,520 with Orthodoxy is that it becomes too kind of obsessed and 366 00:23:03,520 --> 00:23:05,240 not, it's not a slight in any way. 367 00:23:05,240 --> 00:23:08,120 But what happens is people sometimes lose the big picture 368 00:23:08,480 --> 00:23:11,600 when they're, it's, I call it pots and pans Judaism where 369 00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:14,360 which is obviously these things are right. 370 00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:16,640 But it's important, right? I know it's. 371 00:23:17,040 --> 00:23:18,800 Important, but it's easy. To get lost. 372 00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:22,000 Look, it's what Heschel used to call religious behaviorism. 373 00:23:22,440 --> 00:23:27,000 And I would say Judaism is a great tradition for people who 374 00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:31,000 have a touch of OCD. But but if you have too much 375 00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:36,120 OCD, you tend to get lost only in the stuff and you forget that 376 00:23:36,120 --> 00:23:39,800 actually what's behind it is what's you know, right? 377 00:23:40,280 --> 00:23:43,120 So, so the, the the trade off is, you know, like I was gonna 378 00:23:43,120 --> 00:23:46,200 mention that in the conservative world, let's say you you guys 379 00:23:46,200 --> 00:23:50,120 champion more like midot and and Navi, you started. 380 00:23:50,200 --> 00:23:51,880 As a result. Right. 381 00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:55,360 So, so The thing is, there's there's also less focus on on 382 00:23:55,400 --> 00:23:59,560 let's say the and then just the statistically, you know, you, 383 00:23:59,560 --> 00:24:01,800 you see a drop off in in. No question. 384 00:24:01,800 --> 00:24:04,960 Durbin so, so. Well, also also I will say this 385 00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:07,200 though, about the drop off of an observance which I think is 386 00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:12,720 important to recognize is when people say to me, why is 387 00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:16,680 Orthodoxy doing so well in in the world right now as opposed 388 00:24:16,680 --> 00:24:18,760 to the non Orthodox denominations? 389 00:24:19,920 --> 00:24:22,040 I mean, first of all, all credit to Orthodoxy. 390 00:24:22,040 --> 00:24:23,840 They've done many, many wonderful things and they've 391 00:24:23,840 --> 00:24:26,160 done a lot of things right. And they have great rabbis and 392 00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:29,880 great educational institutions. And I don't mean just like that 393 00:24:29,880 --> 00:24:34,920 at all. But it is also true that the 394 00:24:34,920 --> 00:24:38,360 more traditional forms of religion are working. 395 00:24:38,360 --> 00:24:41,240 In every religion right now, there are more fundamentalist 396 00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:44,000 Christians, more Muslims, more Hindus. 397 00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:47,640 And the left in every religious tradition is suffering. 398 00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:50,880 This isn't like a vast worldwide sociological phenomena. 399 00:24:51,280 --> 00:24:53,400 Maybe it will stay, maybe it will change. 400 00:24:53,440 --> 00:24:54,960 I don't know. We'll see. 401 00:24:54,960 --> 00:24:57,360 Only time will tell. Yeah, it's, it's a very 402 00:24:57,360 --> 00:25:00,320 interesting thing and and it's not a by any means, I'm not, you 403 00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:02,440 know, it's not a criticism. I'm just observing. 404 00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:05,680 I think what, what can come, hopefully come out of these kind 405 00:25:05,720 --> 00:25:08,680 of these conversations or is that we can take the best of 406 00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:13,200 both worlds where we we focus on because a lot of times you like, 407 00:25:13,280 --> 00:25:15,920 it bothers me where I see people like aren't focused on me dot, 408 00:25:16,360 --> 00:25:19,880 how we treat others, you know, and we get lost in these little, 409 00:25:20,120 --> 00:25:23,720 you know, these little details. But, you know, we're also, for 410 00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:26,480 example, that we move more towards, you know, palm study 411 00:25:26,480 --> 00:25:30,840 versus studying the fundamentals the the, the Tanakh and we're 412 00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:32,520 missing out on it. That's that's a topic that comes 413 00:25:32,520 --> 00:25:35,560 up a lot on our podcast. So I think that, you know, part 414 00:25:35,560 --> 00:25:40,000 of this conversation is to bridge that gap where we could 415 00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:41,920 see that, you know, we're, we're all Jews. 416 00:25:41,920 --> 00:25:44,240 We all care about each other. And it's important to have these 417 00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:46,080 conversations because ultimately, we're in this 418 00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:49,560 together. Well, so that's, that's my like, 419 00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:52,160 if you say to me, what's my bottom line? 420 00:25:53,480 --> 00:25:56,320 And, and I don't, I'm not saying this should be everyone's bottom 421 00:25:56,320 --> 00:25:58,040 line. I'm just telling you it's mine. 422 00:25:58,720 --> 00:26:02,360 My bottom line is, how about the Australia? 423 00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:06,080 If you care about other Jews, we're good. 424 00:26:06,120 --> 00:26:08,920 I mean, there are a lot of other things I want you to care about, 425 00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:14,320 but it's the people who don't really have that concern for the 426 00:26:14,320 --> 00:26:16,560 Jewish people. And, and so I always tell 427 00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:22,360 people, for example, when Ruth converts in the Bible, what does 428 00:26:22,360 --> 00:26:25,880 she say first? First she says, your people will 429 00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:28,640 be my people. And then she says, and your God 430 00:26:28,640 --> 00:26:33,200 will be my God. Because in some ways the Jewish 431 00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:37,400 people have tremendous priority in the Jewish tradition. 432 00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:42,400 And you have to have that real sense of love for the Jewish 433 00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:45,120 people. And, and if you have that, I 434 00:26:45,120 --> 00:26:50,360 think that will keep you somehow in the fold in one way or 435 00:26:50,360 --> 00:26:52,160 another. And we know through generations 436 00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:54,320 things change. But if you have that, that's 437 00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:58,240 that's really crucial. Yeah, and we're now we're kind 438 00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:01,480 of just forced to have this conversation because of the 439 00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:05,880 aftermath of October 7th. And, and I think that, you know, 440 00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:09,280 we're so many people, like we're in the age of information. 441 00:27:09,280 --> 00:27:12,880 So amazingly, we can have these conversations on Zoom. 442 00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:16,640 But I think that like being, you know, being on Instagram, I've 443 00:27:16,640 --> 00:27:20,200 noticed that a lot of the people who've stepped up to the plate 444 00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:23,800 and unified us and try to, for the Jewish people are actually 445 00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:26,960 just like moms and, and regular people. 446 00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:30,080 Not let's say, like I, I always said, like I feel like there's 447 00:27:30,080 --> 00:27:31,680 an emptiness without Rabbi Sachs. 448 00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:34,200 I felt like he would have been perfect for this, you know, 449 00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:35,640 addressing this kind of situation. 450 00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:37,800 He's the kind of leader we're we're missing. 451 00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:41,200 But like, I'm, I'm loving what I see in terms of like these 452 00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:45,360 grassroots kind of, you know, people on the ground speaking up 453 00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:48,640 and, and, and connecting to their Judaism. 454 00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:51,760 And even in Israel, I have a lot of family in Israel, like some 455 00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:54,160 less religious, some more. But everyone's questioning who 456 00:27:54,160 --> 00:27:54,760 am I? What? 457 00:27:54,760 --> 00:27:57,120 What is my where's? Where's my place in the world 458 00:27:57,120 --> 00:28:00,360 right now? So This is why this is This is 459 00:28:00,360 --> 00:28:07,640 why I, it sounds I love the book of because even though I grant 460 00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:10,040 you that it's the most boring book of the Torah, if you're 461 00:28:10,040 --> 00:28:13,160 allowed to say that. But but here's the thing that I 462 00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:15,280 get from Vayikram more than anything else. 463 00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:18,560 You know, it's all full of what the priests are supposed to do, 464 00:28:18,560 --> 00:28:22,360 the Kohanim are supposed to do. And when I, when I almost every 465 00:28:22,360 --> 00:28:24,720 time when I talk about it, I tell people, you see, there's no 466 00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:27,960 secret knowledge here. It's not like the priest knows 467 00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:30,000 something that nobody else is allowed to know. 468 00:28:30,560 --> 00:28:35,160 It's like any Jew can change the world. 469 00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:38,520 Any Jew can speak out exactly what you're saying. 470 00:28:38,800 --> 00:28:43,320 It's like this mother who yesterday was, nobody says, 471 00:28:43,320 --> 00:28:46,000 well, how much you know of Masatha Beta. 472 00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:47,800 If you don't know that, then we're not going to listen to 473 00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:51,000 you. No, you can say any Jew, since 474 00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:54,440 all of the tradition is open to you and all of the dressers are 475 00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:55,800 open. Any Jew can say. 476 00:28:56,040 --> 00:28:59,400 I know in theory that's not true of Kabbalah, although the truth 477 00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:02,880 is that that rule about 40 was violated much more often than it 478 00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:06,000 was observed. But that's the wonderful thing 479 00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:09,520 about the Jewish tradition is really we learn from the great 480 00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:13,600 sages and scholars, but the Pintoliyid, as the tradition has 481 00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:17,520 it, like the simple Jew, can have a tremendous voice in our 482 00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:21,160 community. Yeah, and I, I think that, you 483 00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:23,760 know, you see a Khabad, they have a lot of success because 484 00:29:23,760 --> 00:29:25,560 they do reach out to other people. 485 00:29:26,040 --> 00:29:28,640 And I, I want to see them. But there's, there's all this 486 00:29:28,640 --> 00:29:30,960 fear about like, you know, we have to put up these walls. 487 00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:33,120 And there's other, there are Reformed Jews as conservatives 488 00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:36,080 and we're all like, we're, they're around us everywhere. 489 00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:40,040 And we have to, especially now we have to have conversations. 490 00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:41,600 I alluded to this in the beginning. 491 00:29:41,840 --> 00:29:44,920 It's so important. But I, I actually wanted to ask 492 00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:47,960 your opinion on, you know, what's happening to Judaism in 493 00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:50,800 America. We talked about October 7th, but 494 00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:54,720 now the Jews in America have an identity crisis in a way because 495 00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:59,360 they're also being bombarded with all this negativity on, you 496 00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:02,400 know, social media in on college campuses. 497 00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:05,440 Like everywhere they go, people are hiding, maybe want feeling 498 00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:08,400 they have the Judaism. What do you feel is the the end 499 00:30:08,400 --> 00:30:10,080 game here and what can we do about this? 500 00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:14,720 So I think there are three big challenges to Jews in America. 501 00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:18,720 One is anti-Semitism, right and left. 502 00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:22,600 They're different and they have different causes and different 503 00:30:23,040 --> 00:30:25,440 manifestations. And like what I saw at Harvard 504 00:30:25,440 --> 00:30:30,640 was was clearly from the left. But we always have to monitor 505 00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:33,680 wherever it rears its head. We can never afford to play the 506 00:30:33,680 --> 00:30:36,720 politics game of I only care about it on the right or I only 507 00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:38,240 care about it on the left. That's one. 508 00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:42,560 The second is what we're talking about here, ignorance and 509 00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:46,040 assimilation and just not caring about the tradition of learning. 510 00:30:46,760 --> 00:30:52,840 And then the third is the we have to come back the Jewish 511 00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:57,440 sense that we're alone. And I say that because there are 512 00:30:57,440 --> 00:31:02,640 a lot of people of goodwill in America who care about us a lot. 513 00:31:03,320 --> 00:31:08,520 And, and first of all, we're much, much better at identifying 514 00:31:08,520 --> 00:31:10,720 our enemies than we are at embracing our friends. 515 00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:16,200 But second, these friends, like it's in something to them when 516 00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:19,880 they hear Jews say, we're alone. Nobody cares about us. 517 00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:24,680 And it's a big challenge to get Jews to recognize that you can 518 00:31:24,680 --> 00:31:28,120 you don't have to agree with everything that your friends 519 00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:31,280 hate. Say you can have lots of 520 00:31:31,280 --> 00:31:34,360 political disagreements. But if somebody respects the 521 00:31:34,360 --> 00:31:37,600 Jewish people and wants the best for the state of Israel, you're 522 00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:42,960 my friend, you know, and and so right, left, center, whatever 523 00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:45,480 part part you are on the political spectrum, you're my I 524 00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:49,720 can fight with you about other things, but but that's also 525 00:31:49,720 --> 00:31:51,920 really important. So we have a three pronged 526 00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:55,640 battle against anti-Semitism, against ignorance and against a 527 00:31:55,640 --> 00:32:00,400 perceived isolation. Having said that, let me just 528 00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:03,840 tell you something very encouraging that that that that 529 00:32:03,840 --> 00:32:07,160 Ellie Wiesel Oliver show said said to me when he came to our 530 00:32:07,160 --> 00:32:09,720 Shoal to be the skull and residence for the 100th 531 00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:13,200 anniversary of the Shoal. So I was complaining about all 532 00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:15,680 these things. You know, that's what you do. 533 00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:20,560 And he said to me, listen, David, when I was liberated from 534 00:32:20,560 --> 00:32:24,440 the camps, we had three impossible missions. 535 00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:28,120 One was to have a state of Israel. 536 00:32:29,080 --> 00:32:33,680 The second was to free Soviet jewelry, And the third was to 537 00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:35,720 revitalize Jewish life throughout the world. 538 00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:39,920 He said, we did one and two, You have no right to despair of 539 00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:44,040 doing 3. And I thought, wow, you know, we 540 00:32:44,040 --> 00:32:47,320 tend to forget about our triumphs, and we only focus on 541 00:32:47,320 --> 00:32:50,600 the things we haven't done well. But I always think about that 542 00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:56,360 because the truth is we've lived in an age of miracles, so there 543 00:32:56,360 --> 00:32:59,240 could be more. So Speaking of things we haven't 544 00:32:59,240 --> 00:33:01,720 done well, and again, you kind of just, you know, killed my 545 00:33:01,720 --> 00:33:05,160 whole next question because it is something like like people 546 00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:08,600 are quite are actually now trying to figure out hasbara, 547 00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:10,320 right? Hasbara, you know, that's 548 00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:14,160 something that because obviously you, you share the belief that, 549 00:33:14,160 --> 00:33:17,400 you know, being a Zionist and being a Jew is just the same 550 00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:18,880 thing. It's part and parcel of who we 551 00:33:18,880 --> 00:33:22,960 are. So like what, what do you see as 552 00:33:22,960 --> 00:33:25,240 like kind of something, you know, a way we can kind of 553 00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:28,960 adjust and, and our approach to maybe like, because people 554 00:33:28,960 --> 00:33:31,160 aren't willing to hear certain arguments anymore, so. 555 00:33:31,320 --> 00:33:33,520 So, right. Yeah, I remember, I remember 556 00:33:33,520 --> 00:33:36,680 years ago during an Israeli general at one of those 557 00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:40,200 briefings that you go to in Israel and he said to us, you 558 00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:42,960 know, you're Americans are always upset about our Azbar, 559 00:33:42,960 --> 00:33:48,200 about our, our not propaganda, but our, our PR, our PR, he 560 00:33:48,200 --> 00:33:50,080 said. But realize this is the problem. 561 00:33:51,600 --> 00:33:56,760 Americans want to hear Israel say we love everyone and embrace 562 00:33:56,760 --> 00:34:00,360 everyone, he said. But our enemies on the border 563 00:34:00,360 --> 00:34:04,600 need to hear you mess with us and we will destroy you. 564 00:34:05,640 --> 00:34:10,360 And it's really hard to give both of those messages at the 565 00:34:10,360 --> 00:34:12,320 same time. And every time we get the 566 00:34:12,320 --> 00:34:15,440 message that our neighbors need to hear in order for us to 567 00:34:15,440 --> 00:34:19,639 survive, Americans hear that message and say, oh, Israel has 568 00:34:19,639 --> 00:34:24,440 such terrible Aspera. So I do appreciate, like, the 569 00:34:24,440 --> 00:34:29,760 difficulty of being in a really bad neighborhood and speaking to 570 00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:34,639 Americans whose neighborhood remember is, is Canada, Mexico 571 00:34:34,639 --> 00:34:39,480 and two oceans, right? We are so removed from the 572 00:34:39,480 --> 00:34:41,199 thought of a threat on our border. 573 00:34:41,199 --> 00:34:45,880 Look at how exercise people get about Mexican immigration, which 574 00:34:46,040 --> 00:34:49,120 in another part of the world would be nothing. 575 00:34:49,360 --> 00:34:51,440 I mean, it is for us. It's a real political issue. 576 00:34:51,440 --> 00:34:54,800 But it would be nothing if you were in the Middle East. 577 00:34:54,800 --> 00:34:57,680 I mean, Mexicans coming over the border, that's not the issue. 578 00:34:58,120 --> 00:35:04,080 So we have a really hard time, I think, in explaining to people 579 00:35:04,080 --> 00:35:08,040 who are not willing to understand what it is to live as 580 00:35:09,640 --> 00:35:15,520 a democracy in the Middle East. So we try, but I'm not sure that 581 00:35:15,520 --> 00:35:18,600 better PR is going to be the answer. 582 00:35:18,640 --> 00:35:27,160 I honestly feel as though in Europe and, and maybe even in 583 00:35:27,160 --> 00:35:30,920 the Middle East, people are starting to awaken to the fact 584 00:35:31,280 --> 00:35:36,200 that the, the enemies of Israel are the enemies of the world. 585 00:35:37,200 --> 00:35:38,880 And, and that's always been true. 586 00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:40,920 The enemies of the Jews have always been the enemies of the 587 00:35:40,920 --> 00:35:42,320 world. The Soviet communists were the 588 00:35:42,320 --> 00:35:44,960 enemies of the world and, and the Nazis were the enemies of 589 00:35:44,960 --> 00:35:47,560 the world. And that's just, and, and I 590 00:35:47,560 --> 00:35:50,920 think that that will be better. That'll be better than any PR we 591 00:35:50,920 --> 00:35:52,720 can advance. Yeah, well said. 592 00:35:52,720 --> 00:35:58,400 They they always come for us 1st and I, I have one one thing to 593 00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:01,120 maybe you can ask the next question. 594 00:36:01,720 --> 00:36:04,240 Oh, can I actually just ask a follow up to what I want? 595 00:36:04,240 --> 00:36:08,240 People said, so this, this point about the enemies of the Jews 596 00:36:08,240 --> 00:36:11,360 being the enemies of the world. You know, I've read about this 597 00:36:11,480 --> 00:36:14,280 theological take on Jewish history, which is that 598 00:36:14,600 --> 00:36:17,680 essentially, you know, you know, we believe that those who bless 599 00:36:17,680 --> 00:36:19,760 us shall be blessed and those who cursed us shall be cursed. 600 00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:22,560 Do you believe that there is truth to this claim? 601 00:36:22,560 --> 00:36:26,880 That like when the Jews start being targeted, that's when you 602 00:36:26,880 --> 00:36:29,720 know things are being things are going in a bad direction, 603 00:36:29,720 --> 00:36:33,480 morally speaking? Yeah, I think I yes, I actually 604 00:36:33,480 --> 00:36:38,120 do even historically, because first of all, anti-Semitism is 605 00:36:38,120 --> 00:36:41,840 always a conspiracy theory, which means that people feel 606 00:36:41,840 --> 00:36:45,200 like things are going bad and they have to find a scapegoat. 607 00:36:46,480 --> 00:36:49,320 I mean, look how much worse anti-Semitism got when things 608 00:36:49,320 --> 00:36:53,040 got worse in Germany. It was already there, obviously, 609 00:36:53,040 --> 00:36:55,680 but it got worse. And I think that people have 610 00:36:55,680 --> 00:36:59,480 felt a a real sense for the last. 611 00:36:59,480 --> 00:37:04,600 I don't know, 20 years made-up in America of things not going. 612 00:37:04,960 --> 00:37:11,160 You know, when I listen to my daughter's generation, they are 613 00:37:11,160 --> 00:37:15,120 considerably less optimistic than I was. 614 00:37:15,440 --> 00:37:19,640 And my generation growing up, we just honestly, I know it sounds 615 00:37:19,640 --> 00:37:22,200 naive and stupid. We just sort of assumed 616 00:37:22,200 --> 00:37:25,080 everything was going to be OK in America. 617 00:37:25,280 --> 00:37:28,480 We just did and I don't think people assume that anymore. 618 00:37:28,680 --> 00:37:32,080 And so, yes, I think that the, the hostility towards Jews that 619 00:37:32,080 --> 00:37:38,520 you see is in part a, a sort of generalized things are not going 620 00:37:38,520 --> 00:37:41,680 well. And, and, and obviously if 621 00:37:41,680 --> 00:37:43,640 things aren't going well that you're supposed to have 622 00:37:43,640 --> 00:37:49,800 something to do with, right so. Yeah, I I think also just the a 623 00:37:49,840 --> 00:37:52,720 culture usually degenerates or civilization just degenerates. 624 00:37:53,240 --> 00:37:56,040 The first signs you see is like the attacking of Jews. 625 00:37:56,360 --> 00:38:00,160 But like, I, I think that kind of what set the stage to this 626 00:38:00,400 --> 00:38:03,800 recently in America is I, I feel maybe I'm wrong, but trying to 627 00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:06,760 take God out of the national out of public schools, trying to, 628 00:38:06,760 --> 00:38:10,520 you know, you know, burning the flag, kneeling for the anthem, 629 00:38:10,800 --> 00:38:14,080 all of these like all these symbols of like national pride, 630 00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:18,920 kind of like disunified this country, all these, all these. 631 00:38:18,920 --> 00:38:21,320 Symbols. So I would say I, I would say 632 00:38:21,560 --> 00:38:27,560 right without like why questions always have too many answers. 633 00:38:28,240 --> 00:38:31,040 And if we wanted to talk about what went wrong with America, we 634 00:38:31,040 --> 00:38:36,280 could have there's so many things that we could identify as 635 00:38:36,280 --> 00:38:41,560 having been problematic. More more important to me at the 636 00:38:41,560 --> 00:38:45,120 moment, not in general the moment than the specific things 637 00:38:45,440 --> 00:38:49,600 that went wrong are why does that turn? 638 00:38:49,640 --> 00:38:52,440 Why does that automatically turn to the Jews are bad? 639 00:38:53,520 --> 00:38:58,240 And I think part of the reason that that's so is and Ruth Wise 640 00:38:58,400 --> 00:39:03,320 talks about this brilliantly, is hating Jews creates coalitions. 641 00:39:04,000 --> 00:39:07,280 Like when we saw on campus people saying queers for Hamas 642 00:39:07,280 --> 00:39:09,840 and everybody thought how how ridiculous that was. 643 00:39:10,160 --> 00:39:14,240 I thought of what Ruth Wise used to say, which is it doesn't 644 00:39:14,240 --> 00:39:17,200 matter that they don't agree about anything else. 645 00:39:17,200 --> 00:39:20,880 They can agree about hating Jews and it creates a coalition. 646 00:39:21,440 --> 00:39:24,800 And so when things start to fall apart, people want to feel 647 00:39:24,800 --> 00:39:27,440 unified. And you can be unified because 648 00:39:27,440 --> 00:39:29,040 they're the ones that did it to us. 649 00:39:30,200 --> 00:39:33,920 And so, look, I, I mean, there are a lot of prescriptions about 650 00:39:33,920 --> 00:39:36,000 what will put America back together again. 651 00:39:37,120 --> 00:39:39,960 As I said, I think these things are always really complicated. 652 00:39:39,960 --> 00:39:43,560 They're not simple. And and you have to ask 653 00:39:43,560 --> 00:39:45,960 yourself, you always have to ask yourself what went before that? 654 00:39:46,120 --> 00:39:48,640 Why do people feel that way? Like, why do people start to 655 00:39:48,640 --> 00:39:52,400 kneel on and on and on and on? I mean, look, part of the part 656 00:39:52,400 --> 00:39:56,320 of the 'cause that I always attribute to is transparency. 657 00:39:56,440 --> 00:40:01,960 And by that I mean loss of faith in leaders had to do in part 658 00:40:01,960 --> 00:40:04,200 with the fact that people knew more about their leaders. 659 00:40:05,520 --> 00:40:09,520 Kennedy and Clinton did the same thing in the White House. 660 00:40:09,800 --> 00:40:12,560 But when Kennedy did it, none of the news would report it. 661 00:40:12,840 --> 00:40:15,200 They knew about it, but nobody would put it in the newspaper. 662 00:40:15,200 --> 00:40:17,520 Clinton did it and everybody puts it on the front page. 663 00:40:18,040 --> 00:40:21,200 And so you have a whole generation of kids that have 664 00:40:21,200 --> 00:40:23,320 learned terrible things about leadership. 665 00:40:23,360 --> 00:40:27,720 I mean, just take one example. It's really hard to grow up as a 666 00:40:27,720 --> 00:40:31,080 Catholic kid knowing about the scandals in the Catholic Church. 667 00:40:31,640 --> 00:40:35,560 I mean, when you think about how many priests did what they did, 668 00:40:35,920 --> 00:40:38,320 how do you now have respect for authority? 669 00:40:38,920 --> 00:40:44,680 So I think that it that's why, again, it really is important 670 00:40:45,160 --> 00:40:51,800 for people in religious life to try their best to be decent and 671 00:40:51,800 --> 00:40:55,080 to be good and to be kind, because that's how you restore 672 00:40:55,080 --> 00:40:58,000 the authority of, I mean, like you spoke about Rabbi Sacks, 673 00:40:58,760 --> 00:41:04,280 that one person did so much to restore the sense of faith that 674 00:41:04,280 --> 00:41:09,040 people had in like a Jewish religious authority. 675 00:41:09,040 --> 00:41:10,640 Being able to speak to the world. 676 00:41:11,240 --> 00:41:15,480 You can do a lot of good, but you can also do a lot of that. 677 00:41:16,920 --> 00:41:19,120 Yeah. And to your point, you know, 678 00:41:19,320 --> 00:41:23,000 it's funny that we we see Nick Fuentes, you know, white 679 00:41:23,000 --> 00:41:27,000 supremacist and Kanye West, who's a black supremacist, how 680 00:41:27,000 --> 00:41:29,840 they kind of joined forces using the Jews as as there. 681 00:41:30,240 --> 00:41:32,160 You go, there's the alliance. There's the alliance. 682 00:41:32,160 --> 00:41:34,200 I mean, they both want segregation, they both want the 683 00:41:34,200 --> 00:41:35,960 same thing, but it's it's. Interesting. 684 00:41:36,320 --> 00:41:38,120 Perfect example. Yeah, yeah, it's a perfect 685 00:41:38,120 --> 00:41:40,760 example. So I, I actually if you want to 686 00:41:40,760 --> 00:41:43,360 take the next question, I have one question after this as well. 687 00:41:44,360 --> 00:41:46,280 Sure. Yeah, just to give a little like 688 00:41:46,280 --> 00:41:50,400 glimmer of hope. I mean, I'm, I'm the I'm like 689 00:41:50,400 --> 00:41:52,520 younger than I'm the younger one here. 690 00:41:52,520 --> 00:41:56,160 So my generation, I've noticed is a bit more despondent and 691 00:41:56,160 --> 00:41:59,480 hopeless about the future. But the point that you made 692 00:41:59,480 --> 00:42:02,720 earlier about our allies, you know, I was actually based on my 693 00:42:02,720 --> 00:42:06,240 understanding of history, I was shocked at how many non Jewish 694 00:42:06,600 --> 00:42:09,360 allies we have. You know, it's, it's I think 695 00:42:09,360 --> 00:42:13,160 it's a historical event that we have this many voices speaking 696 00:42:13,160 --> 00:42:17,760 up for Judaism and, you know, for Israel, even, you know, like 697 00:42:17,760 --> 00:42:22,120 Douglas Murray, even Jordan Peterson has this unbelievable 698 00:42:22,120 --> 00:42:24,600 respect for what Israel has accomplished. 699 00:42:24,600 --> 00:42:28,320 And but you know, there's there's a lot to unpack there 700 00:42:28,320 --> 00:42:29,480 and it gives me a little bit of hope. 701 00:42:29,480 --> 00:42:33,160 So maybe this time we can look at it a little bit in a 702 00:42:33,160 --> 00:42:37,960 different way. So on to that, on to that final 703 00:42:37,960 --> 00:42:40,640 question, a little bit of faith. There'll be one. 704 00:42:40,640 --> 00:42:47,920 One question after this OK the. Penultimate yes, I so in a 705 00:42:47,920 --> 00:42:50,480 recent discussion, I actually attended it and met you there. 706 00:42:50,480 --> 00:42:56,200 It was a very nice nice to meet you at the 92 NY that actual you 707 00:42:56,200 --> 00:42:59,960 had a discussion about whether Judaism can continue without 708 00:42:59,960 --> 00:43:03,960 belief in God. So how do we make belief in God 709 00:43:03,960 --> 00:43:07,200 more compelling and relevant in a world where skepticism often 710 00:43:07,200 --> 00:43:10,320 dominates? Are there specific examples or 711 00:43:10,320 --> 00:43:12,400 trends that give you hope in this regard? 712 00:43:14,680 --> 00:43:26,160 So I think I think if God is made more as a source of hope 713 00:43:26,240 --> 00:43:32,040 and less as a source of punitive condemnation, we have a better 714 00:43:32,040 --> 00:43:35,400 chance because we live in a very anti punitive world. 715 00:43:35,400 --> 00:43:38,560 That wasn't always true. People used to think of 716 00:43:38,560 --> 00:43:41,440 punishment in as you know, an essential part of book. 717 00:43:41,480 --> 00:43:43,920 But that's not the therapeutic culture doesn't work that way. 718 00:43:45,320 --> 00:43:48,480 And I think if you speak about God as as being a source of 719 00:43:48,480 --> 00:43:52,880 hope, you will have a much better in fact, do you know the 720 00:43:52,880 --> 00:43:57,200 most common command in the tower is is Altirad. 721 00:43:57,200 --> 00:44:00,360 Don't be afraid. And I think that that's a 722 00:44:00,360 --> 00:44:04,600 beautiful like message to let people know, which is that the 723 00:44:04,600 --> 00:44:09,000 God that we believe in is not there in order to inculcate 724 00:44:09,000 --> 00:44:12,360 fear, but to help you with the fear that you have. 725 00:44:13,360 --> 00:44:19,400 So if people speak about God, like, I think both intelligently 726 00:44:19,400 --> 00:44:24,680 and hopefully, we can do better than we've done thus far or at 727 00:44:24,680 --> 00:44:28,560 least recently. So before we go, I just want to 728 00:44:28,560 --> 00:44:32,200 ask you one personal question because you, you share the stage 729 00:44:32,200 --> 00:44:37,080 with so many, you know, famous people and, and rabbis and, and 730 00:44:37,640 --> 00:44:41,520 Christians and atheists. So I wanted to know your from 731 00:44:41,560 --> 00:44:43,360 all of your, maybe you can give us some highlights. 732 00:44:43,360 --> 00:44:47,000 But what were your some, some of your favorite moments in all of 733 00:44:47,040 --> 00:44:50,520 your public speeches are very, which are very well known on, 734 00:44:50,600 --> 00:44:53,120 for example, YouTube. So what were some of those 735 00:44:53,440 --> 00:44:56,480 moments that you just felt were like so memorable and so 736 00:44:56,600 --> 00:44:58,400 special? Can I tell you one of the most 737 00:44:58,400 --> 00:45:01,400 memorable moments that I I will never forget this. 738 00:45:04,200 --> 00:45:09,800 In some ways, the most memorable moment was in nine in 2016. 739 00:45:10,240 --> 00:45:15,760 I got a call from the Democratic National Convention and they 740 00:45:15,760 --> 00:45:22,200 said we want someone to do the closing benediction to the night 741 00:45:22,240 --> 00:45:25,880 that the president, this was President Obama's second term, 742 00:45:25,880 --> 00:45:27,760 is nominated. And would you be willing to do a 743 00:45:27,760 --> 00:45:29,440 benediction? So of course I'll be willing to 744 00:45:29,440 --> 00:45:31,200 do it. So I get there. 745 00:45:31,280 --> 00:45:33,200 I've never done a benediction at a convention. 746 00:45:34,080 --> 00:45:36,320 And and of course there was also like, why are you doing 747 00:45:36,320 --> 00:45:37,720 Democrats and not the Republicans? 748 00:45:37,720 --> 00:45:39,840 I still look at the Republicans and ask me, I would have done it 749 00:45:39,840 --> 00:45:41,880 there too. I'll do a benediction at any 750 00:45:41,880 --> 00:45:47,400 convention, but OK, so I'm there and for a variety of reasons, 751 00:45:47,400 --> 00:45:50,800 and I think I have some idea why, but nonetheless, they put 752 00:45:50,800 --> 00:45:55,680 the benediction at the end of the voting for president, which 753 00:45:55,680 --> 00:46:01,000 meant that every state said we give our X number of votes to 754 00:46:01,000 --> 00:46:03,200 the president and then they get up and leave. 755 00:46:04,080 --> 00:46:06,120 So at the beginning of the night, there's an auditorium 756 00:46:06,120 --> 00:46:10,120 with like several 1000 people there, and the benediction is 757 00:46:10,120 --> 00:46:12,600 going to be at like two or three in the morning and no one's 758 00:46:12,600 --> 00:46:14,440 going to be left in the entire place. 759 00:46:15,840 --> 00:46:18,800 I mean, like C-SPAN cuts off the cameras already by the time I'm 760 00:46:18,800 --> 00:46:23,360 giving my my benediction. So I went up to the guy who was 761 00:46:23,360 --> 00:46:26,040 running the convention with Antonio Villaraigosa, who's 762 00:46:26,040 --> 00:46:28,800 mayor of Los Angeles, and his nephew was there. 763 00:46:29,360 --> 00:46:33,800 So I walk over to his nephew and I say to him, by the time I give 764 00:46:33,800 --> 00:46:36,960 the benediction, it's going to be you and me and the 765 00:46:36,960 --> 00:46:39,640 maintenance staff. And you know what he said to me 766 00:46:40,720 --> 00:46:49,800 and God and it hit me between the eyes and changed my entire 767 00:46:50,120 --> 00:46:53,680 like I thought, that's right, I'm praying to God. 768 00:46:53,880 --> 00:46:56,640 I'm not supposed to be praying so that thousands of people will 769 00:46:56,640 --> 00:46:58,200 hear me. I'm supposed to be praying so 770 00:46:58,200 --> 00:47:02,480 the cottage borough hears me. And I'll never forget that 771 00:47:02,480 --> 00:47:05,800 moment. And I think about it every time 772 00:47:05,840 --> 00:47:10,040 I get caught up in, you know, are there, is there going to be 773 00:47:10,040 --> 00:47:11,040 a crowd? Is there not going to be a 774 00:47:11,040 --> 00:47:13,000 crowd? I always think if you just 775 00:47:13,000 --> 00:47:16,800 remember that, that, you know, it's like, it's like there's a 776 00:47:16,800 --> 00:47:25,440 Hasidic story like that about the, the, the rabbi who a 777 00:47:25,440 --> 00:47:27,800 peasant comes up to me and says, tell me, who do you work for? 778 00:47:28,560 --> 00:47:29,840 And the rabbi says, you know what? 779 00:47:30,040 --> 00:47:32,040 I'll give you a salary every day. 780 00:47:32,040 --> 00:47:36,480 Once a day you ask me that question just because like to 781 00:47:36,480 --> 00:47:39,400 remember that you're supposed to be doing it for the Cottage Bar 782 00:47:39,480 --> 00:47:42,960 and not for your ego and not for the crowd that was. 783 00:47:43,320 --> 00:47:46,960 I'll never forget that moment. So that's what a great all the 784 00:47:47,000 --> 00:47:48,600 things that you you could have said. 785 00:47:48,600 --> 00:47:51,120 I love how you chose that story. That's that's really amazing. 786 00:47:51,120 --> 00:47:53,360 Yeah. So I was expecting your car ride 787 00:47:53,360 --> 00:47:55,160 with Christopher Hitchens to come up for sure. 788 00:47:56,240 --> 00:47:58,600 Next time, Next. Time. 789 00:47:58,600 --> 00:48:00,640 We really want to thank you for making the time. 790 00:48:00,640 --> 00:48:02,160 Thank you. It was a pleasure. 791 00:48:02,360 --> 00:48:05,600 Thanks so much. It was a pleasure and hope to 792 00:48:05,760 --> 00:48:07,880 stay in touch. Yeah, absolutely. 793 00:48:08,120 --> 00:48:09,200 God bless. Thank you, Robin Wolpe. 794 00:48:09,200 --> 00:48:09,360 Bye. Bye.