Welcome to Judaism Demystified, a podcast for the perplexed.
Join us as we explore some of the most fascinating Jewish and
Torah related topics with our esteemed guests.
By tackling some of the biggest questions you likely won't find
addressed elsewhere, we aim to shed light on important issues
and inspire a return to the fundamentals.
Enjoy the show. Welcome to Judaism demystified
Rabbi Whoopi. In these times, interfaith
dialogue is a critical is as critical as interfaith dialogue.
Especially after October 7th. The Jewish people must come
together to understand and support one another, breaking
down walls that divide our communities.
This conversation aims to foster mutual understanding and unity
among Jews of diverse perspectives.
So I want to thank you for coming on and for the first
question. You've often spoken of
Maimonides as the most important Jewish thinker to you.
His teachings deeply resonate within the within Orthodox
Judaism, yet his philosophy also holds universal Jewish appeal.
How do you see Maimonides ideas influencing not only your
personal approach, but also for the broader Jewish world in the
modern age? So it's a large question to
begin with, because Maimonides is also probably the most
complex figure in in the history of Jewish thought, although he
has some rivals. But I would say that the the
legacy of Maimonides is it is separate but complementary.
That is, you know, there's the Maimonides of the Mishnotaur and
the Maimonides of the Mara Nebufe and and the my mommies of
the Mishnatura is somebody who was trying as best he could to
make the law as simple as possible for the man in the
street. So it's written in simple
missionaic Hebrew. He doesn't give sources because
he doesn't think that the average person is going to go
delve into all the sources. He arbitrates very complicated.
Tom Munich disputes, but you don't know it when you're
reading it because he's just saying do this, don't do that.
And that my mom of these is a communal leader who tries to
help people, who tries to make Judaism as accessible as
possible. And that if if that were my mom
of these alone by a new, I mean, that's already an amazing
achievement. Obviously, in addition to
everything else that he did that we know about, you know, about
his communal work and about his being the physician to the
Sultan and the famous letter that he wrote to Ibn Tibin
about, you know, you can come visit me if you want.
But this is my schedule. And his schedule puts us all to
shame. And in the meantime, he was also
writing the mission of Torah. And the more in the booth, But I
think the Maimonides that we're referring to in this
conversation much more is the Maimonides of the Guide to the
Perplex, the more in the booth. And that Rambam, that Maimonides
is someone who is open to the wisdom of the world in an
attempt to show the ways in which that wisdom is challenged,
channeled through the Jewish tradition.
So he says that you should accept the truth from wherever
it comes. But his assumption is that the
deep truths of the world are all found in the Torah.
And I say the deep truths because it doesn't mean every,
you know, it might be that the Torah doesn't tell you that this
medicine is the right thing to take for this ailment, but the
deep truths of life are found in the Torah.
And so the, the dual, I would say the dual fidelity that the
Rambam has to intellectual openness and also Jewish
normativity is remarkable and inspiring.
And when you see the different kinds of scholars, Ashkenazi and
Svarti, I mean, in our day, you know, Hahem Faur and, and, and
Isidor Tversky write very different books about Rambam,
but both of them grapple with both sides of this, this protean
figure. And I don't think that it is
possible really to take Judaism seriously without at least
dipping your toe in the sea of the Rambam.
Very. Well said.
We definitely, that definitely resonates with us.
And what I, what do I, I want to know is this modern generation,
you know, we're, we're dealing with a lot of new challenges and
one of them obviously is atheism, skepticism.
So I feel like the Rambam is just a very useful kind of
weapon, you know, to kind of fight back, go the same way.
Also because, yes, Also because the Rambam insists that Judaism
is consonant with reason and and that you don't, you know, at the
look at the core of Christianity is a belief that is deliberately
non rational, the three and one and one is 3 and so on.
There's nothing essentially non rational that a Jew has to
believe in order to be a Jew, right?
I mean, miracles we could have a long discussion about, but even,
but but even that is not the core belief, right?
The core belief is, you know, Mahmoud Harsi and I, and there's
nothing irrational. You might say it did happen.
It didn't happen. It happened this way.
It happened that way. But there's nothing about it
that demands you put your reason aside in order to believe it.
And that, I think is a great advantage as a tradition.
Absolutely. So this brings me to the next
question, which is the evolution of New Atheism.
So in recent years, New Atheism seems to have evolved, with
figures like Christopher Hitchens giving way to voices
like Alex O'Connor. How do you perceive the shift
and what impact do you think it has on dialogues about faith,
especially within a Jewish context?
One of the things that I think is true is that new atheism is
not quite as biting and angry. And I find that interesting.
And I think actually that this, a lot of the anger that drove
the old New Atheism, if you will, came from 911, came from
the recognition that there was a faith out there that was
destructive of so much of what was Western civilization.
That's jihadism, the jihadist branch of Islam that was that
was intent on being anti western, anti Israel, anti
America. And and so there was this
tremendous push back because that's where Sam Harris wrote
his books in the wake of 911, so Christopher Hitchens and so on.
Now I think the question is much more is this true or not an
issue good for society as opposed to we are fighting this
great civilizational battle against faith.
And, and, and part of the problem that that the new
Atheism has also, which I don't think the old new atheism took
on quite as much, is that materialist science is just much
more complicated than people used to think it was.
And quantum physics is really not straight materialism.
And once you start to get into the higher reaches of
speculation about the world, all of a sudden, you know,
everything's solid, melts into air, to use an old phrase.
And, and we recognize that the world is much more complicated
and much deeper. And, and as the great biologist
JBS Haldane said, it's the world is not only queerer than we
imagined, it's queerer than we can imagine.
So once you open up that box and you say, Oh my God, I actually
can't figure this all out. I think that there is a
possibility of faith that's much harder to just slam shut then
seems to be in the days of Christopher Hitchens or or his
more illustrious predecessors like Bertrand Russell.
Absolutely. Devaka, you have anything you
wanted to follow up with that as well?
Yeah, I think those are such great points about like the new
New Atheism being a bit less biting than the old New Atheism.
I, I remember that much of the much of like the Four Horsemen's
sort of, you know, talking points were about how religion
is what drives this, this kind of like really, really dangerous
ideologies. And now it's becoming a more
respectable position. I think that the world as it
opens up and as we see more and more complexity, it's becoming a
more respectable position to hold.
And that brings me to my sort of the next question, I suppose, is
that, you know, nowadays you sort of branch off of the New
atheist figures and you get people who are more, they speak
in religious terms, but they're not really religious.
They're more like culturally religious, I think is the term.
So you have people like Dennis Prager and Jordan Peterson.
They champion a lot of values which are rooted in religious
traditions, and they don't necessarily embrace full
religious observance. What do you think of that
approach? Can can somebody meaningfully
uphold a religious message without the religious
commitments that typically come with it?
Or is the religious commitment part and parcel of the message?
So it's a great question and I want to know when you say
religious commitment, Dennison and and Jordan are different,
right, Because one is Jewish and one is not.
So the Jewish tradition is somewhat different from
Christianity. And I don't want to speak for
Christianity, obviously for lots of reasons, but I would say this
is this is what I this is like my go to answer about that
question for Jewish groups, which is the problem with
maintaining Judaism in the absence of specific ritual
behavior is that there's nothing uniquely Jewish about being a
good person. There's nothing uniquely Jewish
about being ethical. There's nothing uniquely Jewish
about being kind. Notice I say uniquely, it is
Jewish to be kind. It is Jewish to be good.
It is Jewish to be ethical, all those things.
But you can do all those things and not be Jewish.
It is uniquely Jewish to like Chavez scandals.
It's uniquely Jewish to keep kosher.
So if you want to maintain Judaism as a tradition, I think
you have to have behaviors that distinguish it from other ways
of being a good person in the world.
And I don't want to speak for Dennis particularly.
I don't know what his level of observance is or he's not now.
But I do believe that you need a a uniquely Jewish pattern of
behavior in order to sustain a Jewish life.
And and without it, it just dissolves into I'm a good
person. Well said.
Yeah, Yeah, I see. I see what you're saying there.
I suppose I should have differentiated between Dennis
Prager and Jordan Peterson. I I guess.
So what is your take on on people like Jordan Peterson's
message, Right. Like is there they seem to they
seem to specifically extrapolate the lessons of the Bible and
very, very forcefully in some in some ways, you know, and very
deeply in in ways that you may not hear from a religious
person. So what do you?
So I, I look, I, I, I reviewed Peterson's second book.
I have not reviewed his book yet on the Bible.
I mean, I might at some point, I don't know, I'm reading.
But here is my impression of Peterson, and I'm perfectly
willing to be wrong because, as I said, I'm read his book on the
Bible, although I've heard him speak about it.
My impression is that he does not want to be pinned down to
specific Jewish convictions. He doesn't want to say this is
true, This is not true in the sense in which we most usually
understand truth to be a correspondence with reality.
But he does want the authority of the religious texts to be
full. And and that's hard, a hard
match to make. I get the authority, but I don't
necessarily affirm fully its veracity.
And so it's not that that's never done.
I mean, the rabbi's often cast out on this or that or the other
thing by time still or, or created with Rashem and saying
we should learn from this. But it's a really hard match to
make. And I understand why for some
people that wouldn't work so. Fascinating.
I, I see what you're saying and I, I think that, I mean, I've
followed, I followed your work and New Atheist and Jonah
Peterson for a while. And I think that's a very valid
assessment. And I one of the things he says,
and it'll this will blend into the next question is he says
that there is a brilliance in the story and he loves this
story of Cain and Abel. You know, he says in 10 verses,
a writer, the writer of Cain and Abel did what no other author
could ever do. And that that authority that he
wants, that you're speaking about is, is present in that
sentence. So with with that in mind, there
seems to be this desire for the authority of morality, for the
authority of all these philosophical questions to be
rooted in biblical claims of some sort.
Yeah, I know you just mentioned that.
It's not a unique thing to be Jewish, to be, to be a good
person. It's not unique to be a good
person to Judaism. It's Jews are good, but that's
not what you need to be a good person.
So there's a lot of sort of pushback on, on the, on the
Bible being the force of morality.
You know, there's a lot of questions about morality and the
Bible's words and teachings. So we just want to go over some
of these problems and questions with you.
So like for many of people, the problem of evil and their other
challenges of faith are significant barriers to belief.
So how would you respond to these following points about
philosophical problems of evil? So one is gratuitous evil.
Why would a loving God allow seemingly senseless suffering,
right? And, you know, there's the,
there's obviously natural suffering for which there is no
human cause of sin, some sort that we can see.
There's gratuitous suffering as a whole category of its own.
Another question that often comes up is the geography that
determines very heavily whether you would be a believer, right?
You know, we can tell statistically if based on where
you're born, you know, how likely you are to believe in God
or a certain variation of religion very with very precise
metrics. And the the final question, and
I think this is a little bit newer and I actually I've only
recently become familiar with this one.
This is called the non resistant non belief problem.
So the idea is that a loving God would want to have a
relationship with all who seek him, and there would be no such
concept of a loving God who is not available to those who seek
him out earnestly. So you know, with these 3
problems, you know, and there are plenty more, you know, how
can we address this problem and how can the Bible sort of maybe
help us along those lines? So that's a really good array.
My answer to the first one of fortuitous suffering is that if
if good and evil. That is, I'm talking about good
and evil in terms of suffering, pain, bliss, happiness.
If they were not randomly distributed in the world, there
would be no possibility of human goodness, as if good things
happen to good people and bad things happen to bad people,
everyone would be good. But the reason they would be
good is so that they would get rewarded.
The only possibility of being good is to be good without
knowing whether you'll be rewarded or not.
So randomness is an essential part of goodness, I think.
And that's a really hard system. And I know when someone is
suffering, you don't say that, right?
But if you ask me in a detached manner, that's the best
explanation I know for why it is that that the world is unfair,
which I believe it is. As to the second question of
like, if I were born in New Delhi at the Hindu, which I
suspect is true, my feeling is that there are many, many
avenues to God and that religions are not so much
propositionally correct as they are directionally correct.
That is, if it, if a tradition allows you to connect with that
which is greater than yourself, whether you call it God or
something else, that that's, that's what is needed in this
world. And and this is reinforced.
This isn't much easier argument for a Jew to make, I think, than
other religions because we're not a proselytizing religion.
We never felt like to have a relationship with God, you had
to be Jewish. I mean, it's clear in the Bible,
right? Malkhita has a relationship with
the one God is not Jewish. Yet from the very beginning, we
always said like, you can be anything.
And if you have a relationship with God, you have a
relationship with God. The third question reminds me of
what of what Arthur Cohen, who is a theologian, once said about
Abraham Joshua Hescher. He said he has no feeling for
the tragedy of unbelief. In other words, the person who
wants to believe but can't get there.
And I do think that there is a sense in which faith is a talent
like music or art that some people are just really good at.
I know people who have never had a doubt about God in their
entire lives. They just never have.
And, and I think of them as sort of like Mozart's Vitafone.
They're like they, they just believe and they've always
believed and they always will believe.
And that's it. And there's nothing more to
discuss. I am not myself that way and
most people are not that way. But I have no problem saying to
the person who finds it hard to believe that actually for a lot
of people believe takes work. And so, you know, I, I mean the
old story about the, the guy who asked the rabbi, why should I
put on filling? And he said, well, you have to
put on filling for a year for me to answer that question.
There is something in engaging in the community and the
tradition and so on that helps people, I think, answer that
question. But I want to, I want to add 1
caveat, which is it's true that at the center of religion is 1's
relationship with God, but it is also true that so much of what
he, of what you feel about your tradition has to do with how
what human beings introduce it to you and how they introduce it
to you. So I know people, I've had
people. I, I know this is not going to
shock you. I cannot count the number of
people who have said to me things like when I was 12, the
rabbi yelled at me. So I don't believe anymore.
And I want to say to them, first of all, that the rabbi is not
judious. Second of all, the rabbi's
allowed to have a bad day, or there are bad rabbis, like
they're about everything else. Or maybe the rabbi's not good
with kids, or God knows what else.
But but people's experience of religion is sometimes so tied to
human figures, parents, rabbis, priest ministers, that sometimes
we have to get them to overcome their initial rejection and
rediscover something that they think has nothing for them.
We just recently had an episode with rabbit David Aaron and we
were discussing the phenomenon of, of the Derek, which is, you
know, from his experience. And I, I, I feel the same way
that a lot of people who, who you know, leave the path, it's
often because of something experiential rather than
something. Absolutely.
I can't grasp this idea of God. That's often as an excuse,
maybe, but really they went through something, some type of.
Trauma I, I had a my Uber driver, sure.
Well, my Uber driver says to me, you know, when I came to
America, I had nothing. And I went with my relatives to
show and I always went to show. I went to show every day.
I went with my relatives to show and the rabbi saw it was new and
he gave me an aliyah and then he asked me for a donation and I
said, if that's what this is about, I'm dumb.
And I've not stepped into a show since.
And we spent the whole Uber ride with my St.
I'm like Shmuel, you know, it's like, that's not right, but but
it's amazing how often that happens.
And and that also that means that people who are religious
have to redouble their efforts to be decent and welcoming,
because it's amazing how much power you have to turn people
off and the opposite and, and to bring them closer to do care.
I just wanted to add to what you said before.
Actually, we're Speaking of the Rambam, but he talks about your
Christianity and Islam as being, you know, maybe not the truth,
the truth, but it's, it's a positive development for mankind
to the, for when you know, that we reach the, you know,
Messianic age, there will be an understanding of God because of
all this. But also I think that, you know,
as an Orthodox Jew and you being a Conservative Jew, what I look
at, you know, sometimes unfortunately what could happen
with Orthodoxy is that it becomes too kind of obsessed and
not, it's not a slight in any way.
But what happens is people sometimes lose the big picture
when they're, it's, I call it pots and pans Judaism where
which is obviously these things are right.
But it's important, right? I know it's.
Important, but it's easy. To get lost.
Look, it's what Heschel used to call religious behaviorism.
And I would say Judaism is a great tradition for people who
have a touch of OCD. But but if you have too much
OCD, you tend to get lost only in the stuff and you forget that
actually what's behind it is what's you know, right?
So, so the, the the trade off is, you know, like I was gonna
mention that in the conservative world, let's say you you guys
champion more like midot and and Navi, you started.
As a result. Right.
So, so The thing is, there's there's also less focus on on
let's say the and then just the statistically, you know, you,
you see a drop off in in. No question.
Durbin so, so. Well, also also I will say this
though, about the drop off of an observance which I think is
important to recognize is when people say to me, why is
Orthodoxy doing so well in in the world right now as opposed
to the non Orthodox denominations?
I mean, first of all, all credit to Orthodoxy.
They've done many, many wonderful things and they've
done a lot of things right. And they have great rabbis and
great educational institutions. And I don't mean just like that
at all. But it is also true that the
more traditional forms of religion are working.
In every religion right now, there are more fundamentalist
Christians, more Muslims, more Hindus.
And the left in every religious tradition is suffering.
This isn't like a vast worldwide sociological phenomena.
Maybe it will stay, maybe it will change.
I don't know. We'll see.
Only time will tell. Yeah, it's, it's a very
interesting thing and and it's not a by any means, I'm not, you
know, it's not a criticism. I'm just observing.
I think what, what can come, hopefully come out of these kind
of these conversations or is that we can take the best of
both worlds where we we focus on because a lot of times you like,
it bothers me where I see people like aren't focused on me dot,
how we treat others, you know, and we get lost in these little,
you know, these little details. But, you know, we're also, for
example, that we move more towards, you know, palm study
versus studying the fundamentals the the, the Tanakh and we're
missing out on it. That's that's a topic that comes
up a lot on our podcast. So I think that, you know, part
of this conversation is to bridge that gap where we could
see that, you know, we're, we're all Jews.
We all care about each other. And it's important to have these
conversations because ultimately, we're in this
together. Well, so that's, that's my like,
if you say to me, what's my bottom line?
And, and I don't, I'm not saying this should be everyone's bottom
line. I'm just telling you it's mine.
My bottom line is, how about the Australia?
If you care about other Jews, we're good.
I mean, there are a lot of other things I want you to care about,
but it's the people who don't really have that concern for the
Jewish people. And, and so I always tell
people, for example, when Ruth converts in the Bible, what does
she say first? First she says, your people will
be my people. And then she says, and your God
will be my God. Because in some ways the Jewish
people have tremendous priority in the Jewish tradition.
And you have to have that real sense of love for the Jewish
people. And, and if you have that, I
think that will keep you somehow in the fold in one way or
another. And we know through generations
things change. But if you have that, that's
that's really crucial. Yeah, and we're now we're kind
of just forced to have this conversation because of the
aftermath of October 7th. And, and I think that, you know,
we're so many people, like we're in the age of information.
So amazingly, we can have these conversations on Zoom.
But I think that like being, you know, being on Instagram, I've
noticed that a lot of the people who've stepped up to the plate
and unified us and try to, for the Jewish people are actually
just like moms and, and regular people.
Not let's say, like I, I always said, like I feel like there's
an emptiness without Rabbi Sachs.
I felt like he would have been perfect for this, you know,
addressing this kind of situation.
He's the kind of leader we're we're missing.
But like, I'm, I'm loving what I see in terms of like these
grassroots kind of, you know, people on the ground speaking up
and, and, and connecting to their Judaism.
And even in Israel, I have a lot of family in Israel, like some
less religious, some more. But everyone's questioning who
am I? What?
What is my where's? Where's my place in the world
right now? So This is why this is This is
why I, it sounds I love the book of because even though I grant
you that it's the most boring book of the Torah, if you're
allowed to say that. But but here's the thing that I
get from Vayikram more than anything else.
You know, it's all full of what the priests are supposed to do,
the Kohanim are supposed to do. And when I, when I almost every
time when I talk about it, I tell people, you see, there's no
secret knowledge here. It's not like the priest knows
something that nobody else is allowed to know.
It's like any Jew can change the world.
Any Jew can speak out exactly what you're saying.
It's like this mother who yesterday was, nobody says,
well, how much you know of Masatha Beta.
If you don't know that, then we're not going to listen to
you. No, you can say any Jew, since
all of the tradition is open to you and all of the dressers are
open. Any Jew can say.
I know in theory that's not true of Kabbalah, although the truth
is that that rule about 40 was violated much more often than it
was observed. But that's the wonderful thing
about the Jewish tradition is really we learn from the great
sages and scholars, but the Pintoliyid, as the tradition has
it, like the simple Jew, can have a tremendous voice in our
community. Yeah, and I, I think that, you
know, you see a Khabad, they have a lot of success because
they do reach out to other people.
And I, I want to see them. But there's, there's all this
fear about like, you know, we have to put up these walls.
And there's other, there are Reformed Jews as conservatives
and we're all like, we're, they're around us everywhere.
And we have to, especially now we have to have conversations.
I alluded to this in the beginning.
It's so important. But I, I actually wanted to ask
your opinion on, you know, what's happening to Judaism in
America. We talked about October 7th, but
now the Jews in America have an identity crisis in a way because
they're also being bombarded with all this negativity on, you
know, social media in on college campuses.
Like everywhere they go, people are hiding, maybe want feeling
they have the Judaism. What do you feel is the the end
game here and what can we do about this?
So I think there are three big challenges to Jews in America.
One is anti-Semitism, right and left.
They're different and they have different causes and different
manifestations. And like what I saw at Harvard
was was clearly from the left. But we always have to monitor
wherever it rears its head. We can never afford to play the
politics game of I only care about it on the right or I only
care about it on the left. That's one.
The second is what we're talking about here, ignorance and
assimilation and just not caring about the tradition of learning.
And then the third is the we have to come back the Jewish
sense that we're alone. And I say that because there are
a lot of people of goodwill in America who care about us a lot.
And, and first of all, we're much, much better at identifying
our enemies than we are at embracing our friends.
But second, these friends, like it's in something to them when
they hear Jews say, we're alone. Nobody cares about us.
And it's a big challenge to get Jews to recognize that you can
you don't have to agree with everything that your friends
hate. Say you can have lots of
political disagreements. But if somebody respects the
Jewish people and wants the best for the state of Israel, you're
my friend, you know, and and so right, left, center, whatever
part part you are on the political spectrum, you're my I
can fight with you about other things, but but that's also
really important. So we have a three pronged
battle against anti-Semitism, against ignorance and against a
perceived isolation. Having said that, let me just
tell you something very encouraging that that that that
Ellie Wiesel Oliver show said said to me when he came to our
Shoal to be the skull and residence for the 100th
anniversary of the Shoal. So I was complaining about all
these things. You know, that's what you do.
And he said to me, listen, David, when I was liberated from
the camps, we had three impossible missions.
One was to have a state of Israel.
The second was to free Soviet jewelry, And the third was to
revitalize Jewish life throughout the world.
He said, we did one and two, You have no right to despair of
doing 3. And I thought, wow, you know, we
tend to forget about our triumphs, and we only focus on
the things we haven't done well. But I always think about that
because the truth is we've lived in an age of miracles, so there
could be more. So Speaking of things we haven't
done well, and again, you kind of just, you know, killed my
whole next question because it is something like like people
are quite are actually now trying to figure out hasbara,
right? Hasbara, you know, that's
something that because obviously you, you share the belief that,
you know, being a Zionist and being a Jew is just the same
thing. It's part and parcel of who we
are. So like what, what do you see as
like kind of something, you know, a way we can kind of
adjust and, and our approach to maybe like, because people
aren't willing to hear certain arguments anymore, so.
So, right. Yeah, I remember, I remember
years ago during an Israeli general at one of those
briefings that you go to in Israel and he said to us, you
know, you're Americans are always upset about our Azbar,
about our, our not propaganda, but our, our PR, our PR, he
said. But realize this is the problem.
Americans want to hear Israel say we love everyone and embrace
everyone, he said. But our enemies on the border
need to hear you mess with us and we will destroy you.
And it's really hard to give both of those messages at the
same time. And every time we get the
message that our neighbors need to hear in order for us to
survive, Americans hear that message and say, oh, Israel has
such terrible Aspera. So I do appreciate, like, the
difficulty of being in a really bad neighborhood and speaking to
Americans whose neighborhood remember is, is Canada, Mexico
and two oceans, right? We are so removed from the
thought of a threat on our border.
Look at how exercise people get about Mexican immigration, which
in another part of the world would be nothing.
I mean, it is for us. It's a real political issue.
But it would be nothing if you were in the Middle East.
I mean, Mexicans coming over the border, that's not the issue.
So we have a really hard time, I think, in explaining to people
who are not willing to understand what it is to live as
a democracy in the Middle East. So we try, but I'm not sure that
better PR is going to be the answer.
I honestly feel as though in Europe and, and maybe even in
the Middle East, people are starting to awaken to the fact
that the, the enemies of Israel are the enemies of the world.
And, and that's always been true.
The enemies of the Jews have always been the enemies of the
world. The Soviet communists were the
enemies of the world and, and the Nazis were the enemies of
the world. And that's just, and, and I
think that that will be better. That'll be better than any PR we
can advance. Yeah, well said.
They they always come for us 1st and I, I have one one thing to
maybe you can ask the next question.
Oh, can I actually just ask a follow up to what I want?
People said, so this, this point about the enemies of the Jews
being the enemies of the world. You know, I've read about this
theological take on Jewish history, which is that
essentially, you know, you know, we believe that those who bless
us shall be blessed and those who cursed us shall be cursed.
Do you believe that there is truth to this claim?
That like when the Jews start being targeted, that's when you
know things are being things are going in a bad direction,
morally speaking? Yeah, I think I yes, I actually
do even historically, because first of all, anti-Semitism is
always a conspiracy theory, which means that people feel
like things are going bad and they have to find a scapegoat.
I mean, look how much worse anti-Semitism got when things
got worse in Germany. It was already there, obviously,
but it got worse. And I think that people have
felt a a real sense for the last.
I don't know, 20 years made-up in America of things not going.
You know, when I listen to my daughter's generation, they are
considerably less optimistic than I was.
And my generation growing up, we just honestly, I know it sounds
naive and stupid. We just sort of assumed
everything was going to be OK in America.
We just did and I don't think people assume that anymore.
And so, yes, I think that the, the hostility towards Jews that
you see is in part a, a sort of generalized things are not going
well. And, and, and obviously if
things aren't going well that you're supposed to have
something to do with, right so. Yeah, I I think also just the a
culture usually degenerates or civilization just degenerates.
The first signs you see is like the attacking of Jews.
But like, I, I think that kind of what set the stage to this
recently in America is I, I feel maybe I'm wrong, but trying to
take God out of the national out of public schools, trying to,
you know, you know, burning the flag, kneeling for the anthem,
all of these like all these symbols of like national pride,
kind of like disunified this country, all these, all these.
Symbols. So I would say I, I would say
right without like why questions always have too many answers.
And if we wanted to talk about what went wrong with America, we
could have there's so many things that we could identify as
having been problematic. More more important to me at the
moment, not in general the moment than the specific things
that went wrong are why does that turn?
Why does that automatically turn to the Jews are bad?
And I think part of the reason that that's so is and Ruth Wise
talks about this brilliantly, is hating Jews creates coalitions.
Like when we saw on campus people saying queers for Hamas
and everybody thought how how ridiculous that was.
I thought of what Ruth Wise used to say, which is it doesn't
matter that they don't agree about anything else.
They can agree about hating Jews and it creates a coalition.
And so when things start to fall apart, people want to feel
unified. And you can be unified because
they're the ones that did it to us.
And so, look, I, I mean, there are a lot of prescriptions about
what will put America back together again.
As I said, I think these things are always really complicated.
They're not simple. And and you have to ask
yourself, you always have to ask yourself what went before that?
Why do people feel that way? Like, why do people start to
kneel on and on and on and on? I mean, look, part of the part
of the 'cause that I always attribute to is transparency.
And by that I mean loss of faith in leaders had to do in part
with the fact that people knew more about their leaders.
Kennedy and Clinton did the same thing in the White House.
But when Kennedy did it, none of the news would report it.
They knew about it, but nobody would put it in the newspaper.
Clinton did it and everybody puts it on the front page.
And so you have a whole generation of kids that have
learned terrible things about leadership.
I mean, just take one example. It's really hard to grow up as a
Catholic kid knowing about the scandals in the Catholic Church.
I mean, when you think about how many priests did what they did,
how do you now have respect for authority?
So I think that it that's why, again, it really is important
for people in religious life to try their best to be decent and
to be good and to be kind, because that's how you restore
the authority of, I mean, like you spoke about Rabbi Sacks,
that one person did so much to restore the sense of faith that
people had in like a Jewish religious authority.
Being able to speak to the world.
You can do a lot of good, but you can also do a lot of that.
Yeah. And to your point, you know,
it's funny that we we see Nick Fuentes, you know, white
supremacist and Kanye West, who's a black supremacist, how
they kind of joined forces using the Jews as as there.
You go, there's the alliance. There's the alliance.
I mean, they both want segregation, they both want the
same thing, but it's it's. Interesting.
Perfect example. Yeah, yeah, it's a perfect
example. So I, I actually if you want to
take the next question, I have one question after this as well.
Sure. Yeah, just to give a little like
glimmer of hope. I mean, I'm, I'm the I'm like
younger than I'm the younger one here.
So my generation, I've noticed is a bit more despondent and
hopeless about the future. But the point that you made
earlier about our allies, you know, I was actually based on my
understanding of history, I was shocked at how many non Jewish
allies we have. You know, it's, it's I think
it's a historical event that we have this many voices speaking
up for Judaism and, you know, for Israel, even, you know, like
Douglas Murray, even Jordan Peterson has this unbelievable
respect for what Israel has accomplished.
And but you know, there's there's a lot to unpack there
and it gives me a little bit of hope.
So maybe this time we can look at it a little bit in a
different way. So on to that, on to that final
question, a little bit of faith. There'll be one.
One question after this OK the. Penultimate yes, I so in a
recent discussion, I actually attended it and met you there.
It was a very nice nice to meet you at the 92 NY that actual you
had a discussion about whether Judaism can continue without
belief in God. So how do we make belief in God
more compelling and relevant in a world where skepticism often
dominates? Are there specific examples or
trends that give you hope in this regard?
So I think I think if God is made more as a source of hope
and less as a source of punitive condemnation, we have a better
chance because we live in a very anti punitive world.
That wasn't always true. People used to think of
punishment in as you know, an essential part of book.
But that's not the therapeutic culture doesn't work that way.
And I think if you speak about God as as being a source of
hope, you will have a much better in fact, do you know the
most common command in the tower is is Altirad.
Don't be afraid. And I think that that's a
beautiful like message to let people know, which is that the
God that we believe in is not there in order to inculcate
fear, but to help you with the fear that you have.
So if people speak about God, like, I think both intelligently
and hopefully, we can do better than we've done thus far or at
least recently. So before we go, I just want to
ask you one personal question because you, you share the stage
with so many, you know, famous people and, and rabbis and, and
Christians and atheists. So I wanted to know your from
all of your, maybe you can give us some highlights.
But what were your some, some of your favorite moments in all of
your public speeches are very, which are very well known on,
for example, YouTube. So what were some of those
moments that you just felt were like so memorable and so
special? Can I tell you one of the most
memorable moments that I I will never forget this.
In some ways, the most memorable moment was in nine in 2016.
I got a call from the Democratic National Convention and they
said we want someone to do the closing benediction to the night
that the president, this was President Obama's second term,
is nominated. And would you be willing to do a
benediction? So of course I'll be willing to
do it. So I get there.
I've never done a benediction at a convention.
And and of course there was also like, why are you doing
Democrats and not the Republicans?
I still look at the Republicans and ask me, I would have done it
there too. I'll do a benediction at any
convention, but OK, so I'm there and for a variety of reasons,
and I think I have some idea why, but nonetheless, they put
the benediction at the end of the voting for president, which
meant that every state said we give our X number of votes to
the president and then they get up and leave.
So at the beginning of the night, there's an auditorium
with like several 1000 people there, and the benediction is
going to be at like two or three in the morning and no one's
going to be left in the entire place.
I mean, like C-SPAN cuts off the cameras already by the time I'm
giving my my benediction. So I went up to the guy who was
running the convention with Antonio Villaraigosa, who's
mayor of Los Angeles, and his nephew was there.
So I walk over to his nephew and I say to him, by the time I give
the benediction, it's going to be you and me and the
maintenance staff. And you know what he said to me
and God and it hit me between the eyes and changed my entire
like I thought, that's right, I'm praying to God.
I'm not supposed to be praying so that thousands of people will
hear me. I'm supposed to be praying so
the cottage borough hears me. And I'll never forget that
moment. And I think about it every time
I get caught up in, you know, are there, is there going to be
a crowd? Is there not going to be a
crowd? I always think if you just
remember that, that, you know, it's like, it's like there's a
Hasidic story like that about the, the, the rabbi who a
peasant comes up to me and says, tell me, who do you work for?
And the rabbi says, you know what?
I'll give you a salary every day.
Once a day you ask me that question just because like to
remember that you're supposed to be doing it for the Cottage Bar
and not for your ego and not for the crowd that was.
I'll never forget that moment. So that's what a great all the
things that you you could have said.
I love how you chose that story. That's that's really amazing.
Yeah. So I was expecting your car ride
with Christopher Hitchens to come up for sure.
Next time, Next. Time.
We really want to thank you for making the time.
Thank you. It was a pleasure.
Thanks so much. It was a pleasure and hope to
stay in touch. Yeah, absolutely.
God bless. Thank you, Robin Wolpe.
Bye. Bye.