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Welcome to Judaism Demystified, 
a podcast for the perplexed. 

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Join us as we explore some of 
the most fascinating Jewish and 

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Torah related topics with our 
esteemed guests. 

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By tackling some of the biggest 
questions you likely won't find 

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addressed elsewhere, we aim to 
shed light on important issues 

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and inspire a return to the 
fundamentals. 

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Enjoy the show. 
Thank you for joining the 

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Judaism Demystified podcast. 
We are joined by Rabbi Heim 

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Eisen. 
Again, thank you for joining us 

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and for the first time, Rabbi 
Yitzhak Adlerstein. 

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Today we are discussing 
panentheism or the topic that we

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called it is does God need us? 
This is a very popular slogan 

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these days, so the first thing 
we want to introduce our 

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audience to is clarifying what 
is God's oneness? 

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Can you explain why God's 
oneness implies he is beyond the

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world rather than including it? 
What does His uniqueness, 

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oneness and wholeness mean, 
especially when the term in 

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odmilvador implies there's 
nothing other than him including

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any physical existence? 
Who goes first? 

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I'll go first because I'm 
probably going to be briefer. 

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You guys are editing this later,
right? 

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So yeah, OK, let's have a recap 
on that question. 

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What was did it include the 
ideas? 

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Why is panentheism impossible? 
We. 

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We didn't get into panentheism, 
we. 

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Didn't get into panentheism. 
It was just like why does we 

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want to? 
Why does the oneness of 

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akadaswarafu particularly as as 
implied by the phrase anal 

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movado? 
Why does that preclude? 

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Anything in the physical realm, 
let's just say. 

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Anything in the physical? 
In the physical. 

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That's a lot of a lot of a lot 
of times you'll hear that 

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response. 
What do you mean? 

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Hashem is imbued in all things 
because he is, you know, and 

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odmelvado. 
That's that's that's a response 

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you often hear. 
Right. 

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And God's oneness today, at 
least what has really become of 

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this terminology is in a sense 
instead of one being 1 notion, 

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oneness has become a terminology
of he's everything oneness 

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instead of oneness. 
That's really the the counter 

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that we're discussing. 
OK, I'm going to rich. 

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That's not good shouldn't have 
done this after lunch, but 

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within a few hours of lunch. 
Oh, that's really bad. 

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You know, the, the, the idea of,
of, of God being the oneness of 

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the of, of everything being one 
rather than God is everything is

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lahavdil what some of our 
Christian friends have to deal 

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with in what they call agape 
that since they have discovered 

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that God means more than means 
more than implies, but means 

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love. 
Therefore love is God. 

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It's a kind of reversal of the 
definitional elements. 

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The the, the, the limit, the 
boundary of what is acceptable 

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and we'll push the boundary a 
little bit later is that when 

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you link God to any physical 
element of the world, you are 

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doing two things. 
One, you are implying that God 

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can become physical can become 
physical, and that is just an 

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impossibility. 
The IT it's akin to what the 

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Rambam writes about someplace in
Marnev Ukhimal deferred over by 

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Eisen for that that the the 
Torah does not demand of us that

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we believe in contradictions and
terms. 

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It is not a violation of God's 
greatness to say that God no, he

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cannot create a triangle with 
four internal angles, that such 

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a critter just doesn't exist. 
God being what he is, cannot be 

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physical. 
Physical means being limited, 

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being bounded, being restricted.
There is no other kind of 

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physicality and the oneness of 
God completely banishes that 

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that I that idea. 
On the other hand, on the other 

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hand, to think that there can be
sort of a because of that, that 

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God is is limited to some 
ethereal realm where sometimes 

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interacts with us or maybe his 
will sustains it, but he's not 

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part of it, I find to be equally
objectionable. 

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And I think everyone in the 
world of Hasidis and Kabbalah 

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found it equally unacceptable. 
EN ode Movado implies fully that

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nothing but nothing but nothing 
can have any existence outside 

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of the rutz on the basha. 
So there has to be a way you can

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say I'll, I'll, I'll just table 
the question and we'll come back

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to it some other time. 
Refuse to deal with it, but to 

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to exclude God from this 
activity puts you in the camp of

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dualism. 
And we, we, we can brook no 

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compromise with that. 
So somehow you have to find a 

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way in which God is responsible 
for everything and that a 

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mechanism, as it were, for God's
will to be part of everything. 

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So the way I think Kabbalah 
dealt with that is that that 

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there is a a neat salts of 
Hashem or some kind of shefa of 

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Hashem. 
These are terms I know I'm 

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making my hosts wince by 
listening to, but those if you 

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think of it, what those terms do
is to say, no, God does not 

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become part of this world. 
This world is not part of God. 

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If the world, the universe, 
would to cease to exist, there 

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would be nothing missing from 
Hakotashvaraku, from his, from 

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his schlammers. 
If Hakotashvaraku, as it were, 

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would cease to exist, there 
would be nothing to talk about, 

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nothing would be here. 
We wouldn't be around to, to to 

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analyze it. 
But there has to be some way of 

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describing how it is that the 
Rutzen of Hashem is part of this

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world, but not in a way that 
takes away from Hashem's 

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shrineless. 
I turned it over to my esteemed 

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colleague. 
OK, you've certainly given me a 

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lot with which to grapple. 
I think I'm going to violate the

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principle of Al Rishon Rishon 
and start out with the end this 

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idea of neat thoughts and I 
respectfully dissent with the 

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ascription with provenance to 
Kabbalah because it's they're 

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front and center in severa 
Kosare, in severa kosare, in the

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second mahamar in Simanim Zain 
the the the the king asks the 

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cavair to exploit the idea of 
Qvod Hashem and the caviar in 

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his response has hakavod mitzvot
or El oki ET El Amo UV al ritzo,

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which of course wants to listen 
to a whole discussion of varam 

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Mitra and eritreal have in 
common in this manifestation of 

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quavo dashem, but without 
launching into a whole 

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exposition of severe Cos array. 
The reason that I'm citing it 

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here is I definitely agree there
has to be a middle point 

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someplace between some rarifying
Khalila of Agatha sparkle that 

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drives them out of any 
connectedness with us. 

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And I don't know if I would 
describe that as dualism or 

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deism, but certainly it would be
a heresy. 

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And correspondingly dragging 
Agatha Sparkle into this world, 

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which is another kind of heresy.
That is, if we equate with the 

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totality of the world, that's 
pantheism. 

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If we equate with some element 
in this world, that's paganism. 

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But they're both heretical. 
And what I feel compelled to 

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stress here, specifically 
returning to the starting point,

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which was the question of what 
we mean by Hashem Akkad and how 

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to parse Einod Milvado in these 
terms, is the idea that is of 

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course, most famously announced 
by Rambam at the beginning of 

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Hilhodi Zodiya Torah, where he 
explicitly cites in odd milvado 

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in Halakhad Dalid. 
And it's important for us to 

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consider the context that is, 
that's not the first possible in

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that halakhad. 
The first possible is Bashem 

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Elokim Ahmed. 
And before I give the context, 

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it's important for us to take 
maybe a couple of steps backward

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in considering why this business
of divine oneness is so 

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foundational, that it's 
foundation I think is axiomatic 

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for everyone. 
I mean everyone who was saying 

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Shmai Israel at least twice 
daily is affirming something, 

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some content to Hashem Mahad, 
and we need to consider what 

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that is. 
And moreover, why it is so 

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foundational. 
Now I'll note in this regard it 

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is significant that both Rabih 
Dahalebi and Rambam, and of 

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course many in their footsteps, 
regard the attribute of oneness 

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as essentially to be technical 
here, a negative attribute, 

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meaning that oneness as we 
conceive of oneness in this 

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world cannot be ascribed because
oneness in this world either 

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means a unity of component parts
or one as opposed to multiple. 

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And when we speak of oneness in 
the realm of Hakkadosh Prokhu, 

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we categorically mean neither. 
And if we ask ourselves why 

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neither? 
So this is an A crucial point 

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for us to appreciate both based 
upon arguments from Sekhel, from

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the intellect and arguments 
based upon Amar Sarath. 

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When we consider first and 
foremost that aspect of Sekhel. 

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If the most foundational premise
that we enunciate with respect 

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to Akhilesh Barkhou is self 
mandated existence, not 

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contingent existence, not 
dependence upon anything else. 

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You know the reason that I think
every child goes to some stage 

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of asking, well, if I got this 
problem, who makes everything, 

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then who made him and and trying
to conceive of. 

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So what would it been like if 
Khalila There wasn't? 

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But there isn't any possibility 
of there wasn't. 

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When we enunciate that Hagadash 
Procol self mandated existence, 

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what we're stating is that 
Hagadash Procol alone is 

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absolute and nothing else is an 
absolute. 

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Now, the moment that you say 
absolute, that necessarily 

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rejects out of hand, for 
example, the possibility of 

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divine corporeality, because 
anything corporeal is 

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necessarily in need of something
that compounded it. 

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So there's a compounder that's 
more foundational than the 

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entity itself. 
And it is indeed for this reason

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that, as rebelliously noted, 
Rambam in the mover in both the 

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second Kelek in Pekka Giman, the
third Keleka Pekka Dah talks 

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about that which we 
categorically reject, ascribing 

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Takash Brahu. 
No, Takash Brahu cannot make 

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another being like himself. 
No, Takash Brahu cannot be 

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mortal. 
But don't we believe that Takash

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Brahu is perfect, so doesn't 
mean he can do everything? 

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No, it means that categorically 
no deficiency is possible in the

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realm of the divine. 
And the description of any 

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deficiency is therefore 
categorically false. 

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Why? 
Because Rahu is real, that's 

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really all there is to it. 
Saying daco sparkle is real 

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means that would that would 
would be negated in reality 

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cannot be described Daco das 
sparkle. 

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So making another thing like 
himself, that doesn't compute 

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because obviously anything that 
would be made is not absolute 

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existence, it's contingent 
existence. 

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So it can't be like becoming 
mortal. 

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Mortal is invested with all the 
limitations and deficiencies of 

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proporiality. 
So no, we cannot ascribe that 

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Dakota sparkle. 
We can't describe ascribe Dakota

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sparkle that which is absurd 
because Dakota sparkle is real. 

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I will note, I'll put this in 
parenthetically because I don't 

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want to get lost off of a deep 
end here. 

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That Rabbio Dalivi Ansaniates 
this slightly differently in 

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several Kuzari in the first 
Myanmar in section 67 and 89 

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where he has this exclamation of
Khalila. 

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God forbid that the torch to the
man that loves believing in 

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something illogical. 
And I quibble here. 

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It could be that what Rabbi 
Daliby said is what Rambam said.

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It could be that Rabbi Daliby is
saying something slightly more 

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nuanced in that he might be 
saying maybe we don't have the 

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way withhold to be able to 
establish categorical absolute 

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bounds on what reality is. 
But if the Torah is intent upon 

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our believing in Pagodasarov was
consonant with reality, we're 

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not transcendentalists after 
all, then, so it would never 

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demand us to believe in 
something that is categorically 

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irreconcilable with our 
conception of reality. 

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But the bottom line is that we 
don't believe in anything that 

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is irreconciled with our 
conception of reality. 

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And therefore when we speak of 
divine oneness, it is cognizant 

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of the inexorable implications, 
at least in our minds, of 

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believing that it goes wrong. 
Whose absolute existence? 

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That's what we mean by oneness. 
And it becomes so foundational, 

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moreover, for us to enunciate 
that belief in Divine Oneness at

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least twice daily, Hashem and 
Hashem, because even though what

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in our minds we think of when we
say 1 is not what applies to 

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each other. 
And again I reiterate the idea 

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that is enunciated by Rabi 
Udalevi in several Kuzari in the

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second mahamar in Siman death 
and by Rambam in the first 

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character Abdul Mahreh in even 
though these are negative 

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attributes. 
In other words, it's simply 

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negating the opposite. 
So you could say, well, if we 

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could negate from our but both 
oneness and multiplicity, so why

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are we negating oneness? 
It is categorically important 

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for our Avodah to regard 
everything as having one source.

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If I could express this a little
bit metaphorically, if you take 

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out your metaphysical shovel and
start digging anywhere in the 

224
00:16:47,440 --> 00:16:55,440
universe, eventually you will 
impinge upon Kivya Hull, that 

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00:16:55,440 --> 00:16:57,920
impenetrable boundary between 
you and El Lokut. 

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00:16:58,280 --> 00:17:02,440
But it will be going to El Lokut
and not anything else because 

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00:17:02,680 --> 00:17:05,560
there is one source and we are 
not dualists and everything 

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00:17:05,560 --> 00:17:06,599
ultimately is traced. 
Akhileshwar. 

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00:17:07,079 --> 00:17:12,119
Now getting back to Rambam the 
4th Talaqa, who shall now be 

230
00:17:12,119 --> 00:17:16,000
Omer Bashemel Kim Mehmet who 
Levado ha Ahmed the Emmett can't

231
00:17:16,000 --> 00:17:23,760
meet at all. 
Uncontingent existence, absolute

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00:17:23,800 --> 00:17:28,119
reality is something we ascribe 
only Takhileshwar, the hota 

233
00:17:28,119 --> 00:17:31,680
shataram merit in odd Mila 
badao, Kumar Encha Matsui and 

234
00:17:31,680 --> 00:17:35,280
met Mila Badao Kimoto. 
That is, we don't positive there

235
00:17:35,280 --> 00:17:40,400
can be anything that is existent
in the same manner that is 

236
00:17:40,400 --> 00:17:42,880
existent in odd Mila badao. 
Because everything else that 

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exists in the world is 
contingent existence. 

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00:17:46,160 --> 00:17:53,040
Contingent on what? 
Excuse me, the contingent on 

239
00:17:53,680 --> 00:17:55,040
contingent on absolutely 
nothing. 

240
00:17:55,320 --> 00:17:58,200
So what is it going to say with 
respect to the world? 

241
00:17:59,680 --> 00:18:05,920
Getting back to Nisotz, we 
unequivocally see everything in 

242
00:18:05,920 --> 00:18:08,480
the universe as one gets 
existence. 

243
00:18:10,880 --> 00:18:18,120
That, after all, is precisely 
the second. 

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00:18:19,240 --> 00:18:28,520
If you can imagine that this 
existent hacker sparkle would 

245
00:18:28,520 --> 00:18:30,280
not be, then nothing else could 
exist. 

246
00:18:30,840 --> 00:18:35,000
And it's a continuous dependence
because we aren't theists. 

247
00:18:36,560 --> 00:18:43,480
And moreover, what that means is
that everything on a constant 

248
00:18:43,480 --> 00:18:51,480
ongoing basis owes it's ongoing 
existence to something we can 

249
00:18:52,720 --> 00:18:57,920
call, we can invoke a whole 
array of expressions. 

250
00:18:58,120 --> 00:19:01,360
They're all anthropomorphic 
terms. 

251
00:19:02,960 --> 00:19:11,600
It's not that Khalila was in 
that world, it is that that 

252
00:19:11,600 --> 00:19:14,840
world is entirely contingent on 
Hakashburg. 

253
00:19:15,520 --> 00:19:19,040
So the oneness is absolutely 
inviolable, but it doesn't mean 

254
00:19:19,040 --> 00:19:21,800
that we're not going to be 
received, manifest as it were in

255
00:19:21,800 --> 00:19:26,720
this world. 
The whole gamut of attributes of

256
00:19:26,800 --> 00:19:33,000
action, such as the Yudhimami 
daughter, Al Kamim, the 13 

257
00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:37,040
attributes of divine compassion 
that we enunciate depending upon

258
00:19:37,040 --> 00:19:42,720
the Nusak a few times a year or 
every day, but those are all of 

259
00:19:42,720 --> 00:19:44,680
April. 
That's describing the manner in 

260
00:19:44,680 --> 00:19:46,560
which we proceed like there's 
bravo benefits in this world 

261
00:19:46,560 --> 00:19:49,640
through action. 
They don't imply that there's 

262
00:19:49,640 --> 00:19:53,200
bravos in this world. 
They do enunciate the Verity 

263
00:19:53,880 --> 00:19:56,240
that nothing in this world is 
divorced from Akhilesh Prakhu, 

264
00:19:56,760 --> 00:20:04,000
but there's a huge, indeed 
unbridgeable gap between saying 

265
00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:07,520
that and saying Elokut is in 
this world. 

266
00:20:08,840 --> 00:20:11,960
So I hope that more or less 
addresses the issue of totally 

267
00:20:11,960 --> 00:20:16,440
knowing this. 
That was great. 

268
00:20:16,560 --> 00:20:23,440
Probably Adlerstein. 
A a quick response, just the 33 

269
00:20:23,440 --> 00:20:27,280
small items. 
One, I'm very indebted now to 

270
00:20:27,440 --> 00:20:32,000
Rabbi Eisen for informing us 
that review Huda Levi was in 

271
00:20:32,000 --> 00:20:34,640
Bakuba. 
I'm very pleased to find that 

272
00:20:34,640 --> 00:20:44,840
out Number number #2 I I am 
indebted to him for clarifying 

273
00:20:45,160 --> 00:20:49,000
something that I've pointed out 
when I when I have on several 

274
00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:55,360
occasions tried to teach Ram 
Kao, particularly Der Hashem to 

275
00:20:55,440 --> 00:20:59,800
to tell me them and made the 
made the observation that here 

276
00:20:59,800 --> 00:21:07,120
in this one volume philosophy of
of of Yiddish Gite of Judaism, 

277
00:21:07,120 --> 00:21:12,120
of Yadud, that it tends to 
encompass more than what the 

278
00:21:12,120 --> 00:21:15,760
view to Halevi did in Kazari. 
There's a lot more topics. 

279
00:21:16,560 --> 00:21:23,160
The absolute shortest parrot in 
the whole safer is what is God 

280
00:21:25,840 --> 00:21:29,280
and and he sort of like gets it 
down to a couple of statements, 

281
00:21:29,280 --> 00:21:32,880
not principles. 
There's a heck of a lot of 

282
00:21:32,880 --> 00:21:37,720
Rambam in the Ram Pal, far more 
than I think people are willing 

283
00:21:37,720 --> 00:21:44,360
to own up to. 
And what Rabbi Eisen did is help

284
00:21:44,360 --> 00:21:48,520
me with a, a hunch I always had.
And I was conveyed to students 

285
00:21:48,880 --> 00:21:51,640
that of the, I think 5 or 6 
statements that the rampal 

286
00:21:51,640 --> 00:21:56,600
makes, they ultimately all boil 
down to the oneness of, of 

287
00:21:56,600 --> 00:22:01,080
bhakadershwaraku. 
And from there all of the others

288
00:22:01,280 --> 00:22:03,760
can be understood. 
And without them, they cannot be

289
00:22:03,760 --> 00:22:08,480
understood. 
So Rabbi Eisen gets the positive

290
00:22:08,920 --> 00:22:13,320
Reductionist of the Year award 
for that one. 

291
00:22:13,800 --> 00:22:19,560
And lastly, at the at the risk 
of throwing in a name which is 

292
00:22:19,560 --> 00:22:23,040
probably as welcome to our hosts
as a double dose of gefilte 

293
00:22:23,080 --> 00:22:29,120
fish, when we speak about Ms., 
about the truth being the 

294
00:22:29,120 --> 00:22:33,160
ultimate, the ultimate value and
the ultimate reality and the 

295
00:22:33,320 --> 00:22:38,360
only thing that really is true 
is the non contingent existence 

296
00:22:38,560 --> 00:22:41,640
of a Kadeshbaraku. 
I'm reminded of an observation 

297
00:22:41,640 --> 00:22:48,080
at review Ruhm Levovitz made 
certainly not a Maimonidean 

298
00:22:48,080 --> 00:22:54,440
rationalist, but but with far 
more deeply probing and 

299
00:22:54,440 --> 00:22:57,560
philosophical areas than many of
this generation. 

300
00:22:57,920 --> 00:23:02,360
He said we're all acquainted 
with the fact that Uncleus in a 

301
00:23:02,360 --> 00:23:06,280
number of many different places 
when it comes to things that 

302
00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:09,720
sound anthropomorphic, he 
addresses them as 

303
00:23:09,720 --> 00:23:12,560
anthropomorphism. 
So he doesn't talk about speech.

304
00:23:12,560 --> 00:23:16,880
He talks about about something 
about the D board that came 

305
00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:21,240
from. 
He finds ways of dealing with 

306
00:23:21,240 --> 00:23:25,360
things like Yad Hashem. 
So if you Ruhum said that, we 

307
00:23:25,360 --> 00:23:29,640
know why he doesn't want to just
translate Yad Hashem is the hand

308
00:23:29,640 --> 00:23:33,360
of God because God doesn't have 
a hand, not at least in the 

309
00:23:33,360 --> 00:23:37,640
sense that we think of a hand. 
But he said the ultimate reality

310
00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:43,760
is that only God has a hand, and
what we think is a hand is not 

311
00:23:43,760 --> 00:23:47,040
really a hand. 
And and clearly what he meant is

312
00:23:47,040 --> 00:23:52,520
that our idea of hand is limited
and very much contingent. 

313
00:23:52,760 --> 00:23:56,680
And whatever it is that the 
Torah refers to as Hashem's hand

314
00:23:56,920 --> 00:23:59,480
is not limited and not 
contingent. 

315
00:24:01,560 --> 00:24:05,480
If I could just put in two repo 
scripts and again I'm going to 

316
00:24:05,480 --> 00:24:10,400
violate the principle of first 
with respect to the last point, 

317
00:24:10,880 --> 00:24:17,080
I think that is a fundamental 
bone of contention in the 

318
00:24:17,080 --> 00:24:20,280
Rishonian between the 
philosopher's and Mukubalin 

319
00:24:20,760 --> 00:24:22,080
miracle. 
We discussed this once with 

320
00:24:22,080 --> 00:24:29,200
respect to an idea expressed by 
Rabi Itzhaka Ramaa in Sharkhet 

321
00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:35,320
of Aki Dakitzhak, with respect 
to the two versions of the 

322
00:24:35,320 --> 00:24:37,720
mitrash of Gadol Kokhanshal 
Naveen. 

323
00:24:38,320 --> 00:24:44,440
Is it Shehem Meddamin 
Suraliotska or shamdamim dmut 

324
00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:50,880
guruchelmala, the basavadam? 
So the, you know, the whether we

325
00:24:51,120 --> 00:24:55,680
see the hand as essentially a 
physical organ that we are 

326
00:24:55,680 --> 00:24:58,560
allegorically ascribing in the 
realm of the divine as an 

327
00:24:58,560 --> 00:25:02,400
anthropomorphism, or we see it 
rather as a kind of symbolism on

328
00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:04,240
the level of MIBE besaviya kheze
eloka. 

329
00:25:04,760 --> 00:25:06,160
But I know I'd rather not get 
into that. 

330
00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:08,440
I just wanted to know with 
respect to the second, the 

331
00:25:08,440 --> 00:25:14,720
second point, As for what the 
foundation is of the ideas 

332
00:25:14,720 --> 00:25:18,200
enunciated in Ram Khal. 
So I'm going to say that oneness

333
00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:22,720
is in itself a derivative of 
self mandated existence. 

334
00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:24,960
That's the axiom. 
That's the axiom and that's the 

335
00:25:24,960 --> 00:25:26,960
definition. 
The moment that we speak about 

336
00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:30,280
Akashbroko, if we're not talking
about absolute self mandated 

337
00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:31,640
existence, we're on a different 
page. 

338
00:25:31,640 --> 00:25:34,280
We're not talking about 
Akashbroko and everything that 

339
00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:38,000
we say then derives from that. 
That's why this principle of 

340
00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:41,640
oneness. 
I don't think I sufficiently 

341
00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:45,760
clarified what I intended at the
outset when I said Derek Hasehl 

342
00:25:45,760 --> 00:25:50,960
and Derek Hasehl is simply that 
in others that the moment we 

343
00:25:50,960 --> 00:25:54,880
speak of self mandated 
existence, the this concept of 

344
00:25:54,880 --> 00:25:57,920
oneness. 
It is purely corollary of saying

345
00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:01,520
self mandated existence. 
Derek Haseh the very reality 

346
00:26:02,040 --> 00:26:09,760
that this is clearly the premise
enunciated by the gamut of the 

347
00:26:09,760 --> 00:26:11,600
rich your name. 
This isn't something my mind at 

348
00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:17,240
the end nor something unique to 
rebuild Olivi and I'm just note 

349
00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:25,080
that the Avad in addressing the 
question of divine corporeality 

350
00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:36,040
indicts Agadot hamishabushot ETA
de OTT agadic passages that 

351
00:26:36,640 --> 00:26:38,800
confuse or corrupt the mind, 
depending on how you want to 

352
00:26:38,800 --> 00:26:41,760
chance that Michelle Schulte. 
You know, there's certainly the 

353
00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:45,080
premise of anything that would 
contravene categorical 

354
00:26:45,080 --> 00:26:52,840
incorporeality is false. 
And even more stridently, where 

355
00:26:52,920 --> 00:26:56,760
Ramban weighed in really 
throughout his writings, but 

356
00:26:56,760 --> 00:27:02,280
especially in the GERD Aluka 
with respect to the my Mana Dean

357
00:27:02,280 --> 00:27:04,320
controversy that was erupting in
his time. 

358
00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:07,800
And the position that he takes 
with respect to the essential 

359
00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:11,320
theology is we are completely 
beholden to Ramba. 

360
00:27:12,040 --> 00:27:14,960
So I don't know if I would go 
along with saying that Rabbi is 

361
00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:17,920
a Mukuba, but Ramba certainly 
was and he definitely goes along

362
00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:22,360
with this theology in Ramba. 
So just pointing out that we 

363
00:27:22,360 --> 00:27:24,320
definitely have Masoret that 
makes it clear. 

364
00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:29,240
And you know, someone wants to 
descend with nearly all the 

365
00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:32,440
Rishonim. 
Well, you know, we're familiar 

366
00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:34,720
with phenomena like that. 
We usually call them reform. 

367
00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:48,640
All right, OK, on to round two, 
Round 2, the topic of does God 

368
00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:53,760
need us? 
There is a popular campaign 

369
00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:57,000
promulgated by certain rabbis 
today which teaches that God 

370
00:27:57,120 --> 00:28:00,600
needs us, while there's another 
popular campaign which asserts 

371
00:28:00,600 --> 00:28:04,240
that God is actually jealous and
has regrets just as the Torah 

372
00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:07,000
says. 
A perspective that is critical 

373
00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:11,000
to viewing the Torah with Greek 
eyes is the Neo Kabbalist of the

374
00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:18,520
Hasidic belief and panentheism 
that both God, that both that 

375
00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:22,600
God is both transcendent and 
imminent, imbued in all things. 

376
00:28:22,800 --> 00:28:25,840
Just another form of paganism 
which seems like a kind of 

377
00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:29,680
spiritual polytheism. 
Both systems involve a hierarchy

378
00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:32,840
of divine powers, potentially 
leading to idolatry of the mind.

379
00:28:33,200 --> 00:28:36,240
What is problematic about God 
permeating the world if we 

380
00:28:36,240 --> 00:28:39,960
acknowledged he's infused in 
everything, yet his essence is 

381
00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:43,520
not that thing? 
Or the idea that the human soul 

382
00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:47,800
is a literal piece of God and 
more revealed in specific 

383
00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:50,440
people? 
Or that the Shrinath is God's 

384
00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:54,080
physical presence in the world? 
How does one determine when to 

385
00:28:54,080 --> 00:28:56,960
take the tour, literally or 
metaphorically, regarding God I?

386
00:28:57,080 --> 00:29:00,280
Think we we both feel the same 
thing It takes. 

387
00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:02,840
Me a little while to recover 
from that the the idea that 

388
00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:09,120
there's certain rabbis who who 
who contend that God needs us 

389
00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:16,080
reminds me of the time that I 
think we're Zev Cone in Chicago.

390
00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:19,440
So it was a, it was a major 
halacha figure. 

391
00:29:19,440 --> 00:29:22,160
They're called or of Schwabs or 
of Racha. 

392
00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:26,800
Ask him for guidance about how 
to relate to, from people in the

393
00:29:26,800 --> 00:29:32,840
community who were convicted of 
certain monetary offenses. 

394
00:29:33,280 --> 00:29:38,280
And, and Bershwab said, what did
you say? 

395
00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:41,680
And he said, well, I'm dealing 
with the issue of, from people 

396
00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:45,240
in the community who are, you 
know, been been caught on major 

397
00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:47,200
scandals. 
What did you say? 

398
00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:53,240
And it went a few, few rounds 
like that before Rabbi Cohen 

399
00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:56,400
realized that what Schwab was 
saying was how can you call such

400
00:29:56,400 --> 00:30:01,400
a person from, I don't know how 
you could use the word rabbi in 

401
00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:06,080
reference to such an abhorrent, 
abhorrent statement. 

402
00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:12,040
Need, God, need can. 
Can you say that God needs 

403
00:30:12,120 --> 00:30:15,720
anything? 
The idea of need has been 

404
00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:19,320
totally rejected. 
It's we just our literature is 

405
00:30:19,320 --> 00:30:23,200
saturated with the idea that a 
cut of article was lamella from 

406
00:30:23,240 --> 00:30:26,640
all of those things. 
He has no restrictions. 

407
00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:30,240
He is perfect. 
A perfect being cannot need 

408
00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:33,960
anything. 
Need always implies deficiency. 

409
00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:38,600
That's not Greek. 
Or if it is shared by some 

410
00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:40,760
people in the Greek world, more 
power to them. 

411
00:30:41,160 --> 00:30:46,960
But that is that is part and 
parcel of Hakodesh Burkhu's 

412
00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:50,400
perfection, which Rabbi Eisen 
will show us how it also comes 

413
00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:55,560
from God's self mandated 
existence. 

414
00:30:57,120 --> 00:30:59,080
But I'm not gonna I'm not gonna 
go there. 

415
00:30:59,080 --> 00:31:03,560
I'll leave that for him. 
But yes, that is the single most

416
00:31:03,560 --> 00:31:07,800
objectionable form of what you 
of of what you mentioned in the 

417
00:31:07,800 --> 00:31:10,480
question. 
On some of the others, I think 

418
00:31:10,480 --> 00:31:13,800
there's less objection. 
One of the one of the things 

419
00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:18,720
that you posited was that that 
that that Hashem is somehow 

420
00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:28,800
connected to the world without 
such connection, implying that 

421
00:31:28,920 --> 00:31:31,600
this is a necessary part of his 
existence. 

422
00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:34,720
I Koeshbroka's existence would 
be nonetheless if that 

423
00:31:34,920 --> 00:31:37,360
connection disappeared and if 
the world disappeared. 

424
00:31:37,760 --> 00:31:41,280
I think that round one we pretty
much covered that. 

425
00:31:41,280 --> 00:31:44,560
Rabbi Eisen, of course, did a 
much better job than I did of 

426
00:31:44,560 --> 00:31:50,480
showing the tale why we reject 
the extremes of God being 

427
00:31:50,520 --> 00:31:55,720
unconnected on the one hand, and
the other extreme of God being 

428
00:31:55,880 --> 00:32:00,920
in it in a physical in a 
physical sense, when you talk 

429
00:32:00,920 --> 00:32:07,320
about things being the most 
sublime manifestation of 

430
00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:12,760
something of a gulbargu, 
depending on which group of 

431
00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:18,160
heretical group within Rasid as 
you're talking about, I think 

432
00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:24,560
we'd have to go through them one
by one to to to say that that 

433
00:32:25,320 --> 00:32:30,720
Sadiqim or the Merkova of the 
Shrina is not a heretical idea. 

434
00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:32,320
That's straight out of the 
Gemara. 

435
00:32:33,600 --> 00:32:36,160
How, how does it, where do you 
cross the line? 

436
00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:39,840
You practically speaking, you 
know when you've crossed the 

437
00:32:39,840 --> 00:32:44,280
line, after you've done as as 
much thinking about the issues 

438
00:32:44,640 --> 00:32:47,640
as Rebei Eisenhower, minimally 
by listening to everything that 

439
00:32:47,640 --> 00:32:49,680
he has to say. 
And then if you're still 

440
00:32:49,680 --> 00:32:51,880
confused, call him and ask him, 
right? 

441
00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:53,800
That's typically what we do in 
this religion. 

442
00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:57,320
No, I mean, in all seriousness, 
when things are confusing, this 

443
00:32:57,320 --> 00:33:00,160
is a confusing area. 
And people have to have Rebei. 

444
00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:04,040
They have to have people who 
they trust, who are thoroughly 

445
00:33:04,280 --> 00:33:08,360
immersed in the world of, of, of
proper Tora hash, Kapha. 

446
00:33:08,760 --> 00:33:10,640
And you you can ask questions 
like that. 

447
00:33:10,640 --> 00:33:13,800
And they make they, they can, 
they tend to find clarity out of

448
00:33:13,800 --> 00:33:18,120
the murkiness. 
But the, the idea that that 

449
00:33:18,640 --> 00:33:23,600
Shrina is in this world. 
Sure, the Rishonimo grappled 

450
00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:28,320
with the idea, but you know, 
and, and they, they put huge 

451
00:33:28,320 --> 00:33:30,480
limitation about what that 
means. 

452
00:33:30,480 --> 00:33:33,120
Does God become part of the 
world? 

453
00:33:33,120 --> 00:33:36,160
Does he, you know, does he find 
the, the Kurdish Kardashian as 

454
00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:40,400
his home where he takes all of 
his essence and put it there? 

455
00:33:40,760 --> 00:33:45,320
No, but even even in the world, 
look, I see this, you have this,

456
00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:50,360
this, this vast difference 
between about what Simpson meant

457
00:33:51,080 --> 00:33:58,280
to create the a room for finity 
within Infinity, which is a just

458
00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:03,760
absolute conundrum, which the 
Kabbalah very, very wisely said,

459
00:34:03,760 --> 00:34:06,240
we're just going to call it 
Simpson and don't ask me 

460
00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:08,000
anything like that. 
But it allows us to move the 

461
00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:11,560
question and talk about to talk 
about things afterwards. 

462
00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:15,480
Did it mean that Hashem 
contracted his essence, whatever

463
00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:19,480
that means, or just the aura of 
his essence? 

464
00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:26,280
But nobody, nobody talked about 
God becoming physical in this 

465
00:34:26,280 --> 00:34:30,040
world. 
You do that and you've become a 

466
00:34:30,239 --> 00:34:34,440
member of a different religion, 
another monotheistic religion 

467
00:34:34,719 --> 00:34:39,040
maybe going to happen that 
you've shown him according to 

468
00:34:39,040 --> 00:34:43,480
happen that you've shown him and
maybe even more than half, but 

469
00:34:43,560 --> 00:34:49,120
but nonetheless a belief that we
are high of Nisa for believing. 

470
00:34:49,840 --> 00:34:56,400
Robert Adlerstein 2 points 
before before Rabbi Eisen 

471
00:34:56,400 --> 00:35:00,720
responds 1 So I just found it 
somewhat interesting that the 

472
00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:03,680
the first part with the does God
need us? 

473
00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:08,840
You categorically rejected it. 
However, you're, you sort of 

474
00:35:08,840 --> 00:35:13,560
have you've you from what I can 
tell you accept to some extent 

475
00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:18,600
the Kabbalistic positions to 
some extent, but does God need 

476
00:35:18,600 --> 00:35:22,880
us is actually one of the the 
highlights of Kabbalistical 

477
00:35:22,880 --> 00:35:26,360
thought for the whole point of 
mitzvot and the whole point of 

478
00:35:26,360 --> 00:35:30,400
everything is to essentially 
reunify the spirit so that God 

479
00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:32,920
can become one again. 
I was just wondering how you 

480
00:35:32,920 --> 00:35:39,040
square that with with those 
notions because even more than 

481
00:35:39,080 --> 00:35:43,080
if we just say penentiism or 
throughout terms, really the 

482
00:35:43,080 --> 00:35:47,120
whole point of the Czar is 
essentially the God needs our 

483
00:35:47,120 --> 00:35:49,360
mitzvot. 
That's like that's literally the

484
00:35:49,360 --> 00:35:53,640
whole, the whole point. 
That was one thing and another 

485
00:35:53,640 --> 00:35:58,040
thing, which I'm, I apologize if
I'm, if I'm thinking, but so 

486
00:35:59,520 --> 00:36:04,880
you've been so you're saying 
you've you've said it. 

487
00:36:05,240 --> 00:36:07,640
If we can go back and listen, 
but I remember you said so it's 

488
00:36:07,640 --> 00:36:09,600
not that God puts all his 
essence. 

489
00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:16,000
It's only a aura just from my my
studies in these things. 

490
00:36:16,000 --> 00:36:20,720
And I, Rob Eisen, I'm sure will 
be able to to help clear it up 

491
00:36:20,720 --> 00:36:23,600
for me as well. 
I think part of the problem is, 

492
00:36:23,600 --> 00:36:28,160
is that the concept of having 
hara from A1 of from from 

493
00:36:28,240 --> 00:36:32,960
essence or a part of essence. 
Those are contradictory terms 

494
00:36:32,960 --> 00:36:37,040
because God's essence, if it's 
one is, is indivisible into 

495
00:36:37,440 --> 00:36:40,720
parts. 
Hey, arot NIT sot sot that was 

496
00:36:40,720 --> 00:36:44,480
that would imply that his that 
would imply that God's essence 

497
00:36:44,720 --> 00:36:49,360
has multiple functionalities, 
right, Or that it is it is 

498
00:36:49,360 --> 00:36:51,120
multiplexed in its in what it 
can do. 

499
00:36:51,360 --> 00:36:57,160
Whereas when we say a simple 
unity, that kind of detracts and

500
00:36:57,160 --> 00:37:00,560
I understand the need for it. 
I understand what you mean that 

501
00:37:00,560 --> 00:37:05,280
we're trying to somehow we're 
trying to somehow keep God's 

502
00:37:05,280 --> 00:37:10,000
essence away, but at the same 
time to fix certain empirical 

503
00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:13,560
issues that we have that we need
to, you know, connect God with 

504
00:37:13,560 --> 00:37:15,560
the world. 
So we're trying to find this 

505
00:37:15,560 --> 00:37:18,600
middle bridge, but I think part 
of the problem is, is that when 

506
00:37:18,600 --> 00:37:23,680
you have a notion of simple 
unity, it automatically detracts

507
00:37:23,680 --> 00:37:28,040
from a middle ground that in a 
positive way they might be 

508
00:37:28,040 --> 00:37:29,880
trying to find. 
Those are just two points I 

509
00:37:29,880 --> 00:37:32,360
wanted to bring up. 
I'm sorry if I if I no problem. 

510
00:37:33,160 --> 00:37:36,200
I, I will respond. 
I will respond to briefly. 

511
00:37:36,440 --> 00:37:42,720
The first one's the easier one 
to to respond to the. 

512
00:37:42,760 --> 00:37:46,800
I just lost my thought. 
That God needs us I think you're

513
00:37:46,800 --> 00:37:50,520
referring to. 
Yeah, how did you phrase the 

514
00:37:50,520 --> 00:37:53,200
question? 
Well, the the entire zor is 

515
00:37:53,200 --> 00:37:56,560
essentially how to. 
Yes, yeah, yeah. 

516
00:37:57,120 --> 00:38:01,040
I think this is a a crucial 
error that people make. 

517
00:38:01,720 --> 00:38:07,680
Resolvatri puts it very pithily.
You simply cannot talk about 

518
00:38:08,360 --> 00:38:12,360
purpose when it comes to that. 
Cutter's powerful purpose in 

519
00:38:12,360 --> 00:38:17,000
creating the world, purpose in 
giving us mitzvos, purpose in 

520
00:38:17,480 --> 00:38:20,800
caring about man. 
What you can talk about is 

521
00:38:20,800 --> 00:38:24,960
function. 
We don't know why and we can't 

522
00:38:24,960 --> 00:38:29,520
even ask why. 
And the very question why is 

523
00:38:29,520 --> 00:38:35,160
asking for you to understand God
in completely human terms of 

524
00:38:35,360 --> 00:38:38,240
well, something wasn't here and 
and it had to be done. 

525
00:38:38,240 --> 00:38:40,160
So you know, this is this is the
way. 

526
00:38:40,160 --> 00:38:43,160
This is the way he did it, but I
could his brother who did create

527
00:38:43,160 --> 00:38:49,640
a world and in that world he has
he has a a script for the world 

528
00:38:49,640 --> 00:38:56,120
he has he has a plan for the way
world is going to progress to 

529
00:38:56,120 --> 00:39:01,480
fulfill that mission as it were 
the mission that he gave to man.

530
00:39:01,720 --> 00:39:08,040
Yes, man is necessary for the 
furtherance of that program. 

531
00:39:08,240 --> 00:39:12,200
The program was designed to 
incorporate man Again, I can't 

532
00:39:12,200 --> 00:39:18,160
tell you why, but man is part of
it and he gave he assigned that 

533
00:39:18,160 --> 00:39:22,000
mission to man. 
Now, how do you how do you 

534
00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:26,440
square this with your second, 
your second point, How do we 

535
00:39:26,440 --> 00:39:36,600
square this with with the the 
the annoying all right, neat 

536
00:39:36,600 --> 00:39:40,640
sauce and things like that are 
are just semantic things trying 

537
00:39:40,640 --> 00:39:45,680
to take away from. 
So I would I would point you to 

538
00:39:45,680 --> 00:39:52,480
Das Unos of the Ranghao. 
The whole safer deals with that.

539
00:39:52,840 --> 00:39:56,400
And it starts with the 
recognition that of course 

540
00:39:56,400 --> 00:40:00,400
that's true and that everything 
that Akashbar who created in 

541
00:40:00,400 --> 00:40:05,960
this world was. 
Was was sort of anthrocentric. 

542
00:40:06,200 --> 00:40:10,280
It was there for man and for 
what man is supposed to do. 

543
00:40:10,280 --> 00:40:16,760
But the goal of the whole thing 
is to show that there is no 

544
00:40:16,880 --> 00:40:21,120
division of the world. 
There is no turning the world 

545
00:40:21,400 --> 00:40:28,120
into into particles. 
The world is 1, and the way that

546
00:40:28,120 --> 00:40:32,600
the world becomes one is for 
human beings to live in it with 

547
00:40:32,600 --> 00:40:35,560
the contradictions, with the 
questions. 

548
00:40:35,800 --> 00:40:39,600
And keep on saying, ain't ode 
milvado. 

549
00:40:40,040 --> 00:40:48,520
Nothing out there can take away 
from the oneness of Hakurajbaru.

550
00:40:48,960 --> 00:40:53,680
This is the Sode Hayekud, which 
ultimately is the way he 

551
00:40:53,680 --> 00:41:00,520
describes the mission statement 
from a human standpoint of the 

552
00:41:00,520 --> 00:41:05,120
world. 
We gradually by doing mitzvos, 

553
00:41:05,120 --> 00:41:10,160
by listening to Khadushbar who, 
by looking evil straight in the 

554
00:41:10,160 --> 00:41:16,600
face and saying you can, you 
can, you can hide, but we're 

555
00:41:16,600 --> 00:41:19,640
still going to find you. 
And ultimately we're going to 

556
00:41:19,640 --> 00:41:25,320
assert. 
Right now, like Rashi says, we 

557
00:41:25,320 --> 00:41:30,760
can only assert it, but in the 
end of time we will be able to 

558
00:41:30,760 --> 00:41:35,440
understand how everything that 
Akoteshwaraku created, including

559
00:41:35,440 --> 00:41:40,920
these seeming pockets of non 
existence of of of Hashem's 

560
00:41:40,920 --> 00:41:45,080
presence, don't contradict the 
oneness of Hashem. 

561
00:41:45,080 --> 00:41:53,280
He's there in in everything. 
About Ayton. 

562
00:41:54,720 --> 00:41:56,240
Yeah. 
So again, I'm going to start up,

563
00:41:56,960 --> 00:42:03,200
I keep on doing this from the 
end just with respect to the 

564
00:42:04,840 --> 00:42:09,160
impossibility of understanding 
Hakadashvaraku's act of 

565
00:42:09,160 --> 00:42:12,720
creation. 
And this, of course, is the 

566
00:42:12,720 --> 00:42:19,160
principal thrust of Rambam in 
the third unit of the MOVA in 

567
00:42:21,080 --> 00:42:23,920
precisely to enunciate that 
Verity. 

568
00:42:24,080 --> 00:42:29,400
And of course simultaneously, 
while we don't have the 

569
00:42:29,400 --> 00:42:37,600
werewithal to understand the 
reason of creation, one of the 

570
00:42:40,840 --> 00:42:45,480
most foundational principles 
that Rambam enunciates in the 

571
00:42:45,480 --> 00:42:48,800
Pyrrhic. 
And he does it in the context of

572
00:42:49,120 --> 00:42:54,160
a scathing rejection of 
Aristotelianism. 

573
00:42:54,680 --> 00:42:59,600
The progression in the mohair is
from the first Catholic that 

574
00:42:59,680 --> 00:43:01,760
that is essentially consonant 
with Aristotle. 

575
00:43:01,760 --> 00:43:05,000
The second, which begins to cast
aspersions and certain aspects 

576
00:43:05,040 --> 00:43:08,120
of Astelianism, saying that 
Aristotle can only be relied 

577
00:43:08,120 --> 00:43:12,080
upon in the sublunary realm. 
The third, where Aristotle flies

578
00:43:12,080 --> 00:43:19,360
out the window in the critical 
critique in this chapter, in 

579
00:43:19,360 --> 00:43:24,560
chapter 13, what Rama 
essentially says is the premise 

580
00:43:25,360 --> 00:43:34,840
of telos of some ultimate 
purpose is something that is 

581
00:43:34,840 --> 00:43:38,480
irreconcilable with a primeval 
universe, which is of course 

582
00:43:38,720 --> 00:43:43,120
foundational in Aristotelian 
philosophy that the universe is 

583
00:43:43,120 --> 00:43:47,920
primeval. 
And this is a more complex 

584
00:43:47,920 --> 00:43:52,680
issue, and as much as Aristotle 
attempts to eat his cake and 

585
00:43:52,680 --> 00:43:57,560
have it too, because he does 
presume that Telos exists in a 

586
00:43:57,560 --> 00:44:01,760
primeval universe, ironically I 
think that was one of the 

587
00:44:02,120 --> 00:44:08,800
principal motivations of Spinoza
in rejecting the idea of Telos 

588
00:44:09,000 --> 00:44:15,080
because he realized it was an 
insurmountable obstacle to a 

589
00:44:15,280 --> 00:44:19,360
pantheistic worldview. 
Because then there has to be 

590
00:44:20,120 --> 00:44:26,200
some divine Meridian purpose. 
So he took the air stealing 

591
00:44:26,200 --> 00:44:30,360
system through, tell us out the 
window, and of course 

592
00:44:30,360 --> 00:44:36,440
established what is on deep 
contemplation and utter 

593
00:44:36,440 --> 00:44:38,560
absurdity. 
Because everyone intuitively 

594
00:44:38,560 --> 00:44:44,120
senses that the universe has 
some underlying purpose. 

595
00:44:45,360 --> 00:44:48,240
Great scientists have that 
presumption. 

596
00:44:49,240 --> 00:44:53,080
It's ironic in that vein that 
Einstein is a case in point, 

597
00:44:54,640 --> 00:44:56,840
describes himself as tracing the
lines that flow from God. 

598
00:44:57,040 --> 00:44:59,000
No, he describes himself as 
being Spinoza. 

599
00:44:59,920 --> 00:45:02,840
But the moment that you talk 
about lines that flow, that flow

600
00:45:02,840 --> 00:45:05,960
from God, in that sense, you 
really aren't the Spinoza. 

601
00:45:06,160 --> 00:45:12,800
I, if I may have that 
admonishment on Einstein's 

602
00:45:13,080 --> 00:45:16,160
premise of being a Spinoza. 
But but consider, though, 

603
00:45:16,160 --> 00:45:18,080
Einstein was coming from a 
completely, completely atheistic

604
00:45:18,080 --> 00:45:21,040
background, given his home 
environment, and his conception 

605
00:45:21,040 --> 00:45:25,960
of there being a re bonochel 
olam in some sense of the term 

606
00:45:27,120 --> 00:45:30,960
was a consequence of if you're a
great scientist, you do believe 

607
00:45:31,520 --> 00:45:34,920
that you're tracing lines that 
flow from God, as Einstein saw 

608
00:45:35,040 --> 00:45:37,200
aptly expressed it. 
Me Yorker scientists, by the 

609
00:45:37,200 --> 00:45:43,400
way, don't have that problem, 
which explains a lot of the the 

610
00:45:43,400 --> 00:45:50,160
morons who, based upon their 
very petty misunderstanding of 

611
00:45:50,160 --> 00:45:54,880
philosophy of science, think 
that their science has somehow 

612
00:45:55,120 --> 00:45:58,600
proven atheism. 
But again, this is something 

613
00:45:58,600 --> 00:46:00,560
that would be aside every We'll 
leave it on the side. 

614
00:46:00,840 --> 00:46:04,960
Returning to the essential 
question of pantheism, as I 

615
00:46:04,960 --> 00:46:08,080
already commented to you, I have
a major problem trying to figure

616
00:46:08,080 --> 00:46:11,480
out what pantheism, what 
pantheism is going to be as 

617
00:46:11,480 --> 00:46:14,640
distinct from pantheism or as 
the same from monotheism. 

618
00:46:15,040 --> 00:46:19,600
That is, once we appreciate it 
all goes back to that bedrock 

619
00:46:19,600 --> 00:46:22,640
definition that self mandated 
existence. 

620
00:46:22,960 --> 00:46:26,160
And self mandated existence does
not broker any room for 

621
00:46:26,160 --> 00:46:30,920
multiplicity whatsoever. 
So we aren't going to be able to

622
00:46:31,320 --> 00:46:34,320
whip out our metaphysical knife 
and start chopping 

623
00:46:34,320 --> 00:46:37,200
Akadarshbaraho Khalilah into 
parts they don't exist. 

624
00:46:38,280 --> 00:46:45,520
So if when we speak of the 
accessibility Kivyakol of 

625
00:46:45,520 --> 00:46:49,400
Akadarshbaraho in this world, we
speak of some manifestation, 

626
00:46:49,400 --> 00:46:53,360
again on the level of observing 
action and ascribing it to its 

627
00:46:53,360 --> 00:46:58,560
divine stores, 100%. 
And indeed, in this regard it 

628
00:46:58,640 --> 00:47:04,640
will note the correspondence 
famously enunciated in the 

629
00:47:04,640 --> 00:47:10,920
Gemara in Masek Braho da Feud 
between what we say about the 

630
00:47:10,920 --> 00:47:15,960
Mishima, the soul with respect 
to the microcosm of man, and 

631
00:47:15,960 --> 00:47:18,720
what we say about Hakadosh 
Paraho Kibiaho with respect to 

632
00:47:18,720 --> 00:47:22,520
the universe, an idea that is 
far more elaborated upon in the 

633
00:47:22,520 --> 00:47:25,880
Madras, in particular by Ikaraba
Parashadal Piskahet. 

634
00:47:26,760 --> 00:47:32,120
This idea of kivyako agosproko 
being the Nishima of the 

635
00:47:32,120 --> 00:47:39,280
universe is by no means 
pantheistic or even pan 

636
00:47:39,280 --> 00:47:41,960
entheistic. 
It's purely monotheistic. 

637
00:47:42,680 --> 00:47:47,800
It is recognizing that just as 
the Nishima is transcendent, but

638
00:47:47,800 --> 00:47:52,560
it still animates the microcosm,
the goof, the person. 

639
00:47:53,200 --> 00:47:56,640
So Agospracho is utterly 
transcendent, but animates the 

640
00:47:56,640 --> 00:47:59,520
universe. 
And and of course, it's in this 

641
00:47:59,520 --> 00:48:03,880
vein that we likewise appreciate
the idea enunciated manifold 

642
00:48:03,880 --> 00:48:05,600
places in The Mirage. 
Well, note in particular 

643
00:48:05,600 --> 00:48:11,320
Brashita Gabba in Parshasa 
Machet Biscartet about referring

644
00:48:11,320 --> 00:48:15,680
to as Rahu as Hamakom. 
Why do we refer to as Rahu as 

645
00:48:15,760 --> 00:48:18,880
Hamakom? 
Hakadosh rahum mikomochalam, the

646
00:48:18,880 --> 00:48:21,920
en olamo Mikomo? 
Now what does that mean? 

647
00:48:22,360 --> 00:48:25,280
Because the place of this world,
the world is not his place, that

648
00:48:25,280 --> 00:48:27,600
Agosroko transcends, the world 
that is not subsumed within it. 

649
00:48:28,200 --> 00:48:31,280
Now, someone could come along 
and say, oh, that's panantheism.

650
00:48:31,280 --> 00:48:34,800
And maybe it is. 
I I just have no idea what 

651
00:48:34,800 --> 00:48:36,800
Panantheism means in this 
regard. 

652
00:48:36,800 --> 00:48:40,360
What The Mirage prima facie is 
enunciating is the realization 

653
00:48:40,640 --> 00:48:42,560
that Agosroko's utterly 
transcended, and then yet the 

654
00:48:42,560 --> 00:48:46,320
entire world is animated through
Agosroko's divinity. 

655
00:48:47,480 --> 00:48:49,120
We're going to call that 
pantheism. 

656
00:48:49,280 --> 00:48:51,080
We call it monotheism. 
That's exactly what antheism 

657
00:48:51,080 --> 00:48:53,760
presumes. 
Monotheism as opposed to daism. 

658
00:48:54,080 --> 00:48:57,240
Hakush prokhu, is kibiyakho in 
that vein involved? 

659
00:48:57,400 --> 00:48:59,160
Now, Rabbi, I understand, 
expressed it very well. 

660
00:48:59,240 --> 00:49:01,640
If you ask me to parse out 
exactly how that works, I'll 

661
00:49:01,640 --> 00:49:02,800
tell you. 
I don't know. 

662
00:49:03,600 --> 00:49:05,520
We're mortal, we don't 
understand these things. 

663
00:49:06,600 --> 00:49:09,440
But I can enunciate my lack of 
understanding. 

664
00:49:09,440 --> 00:49:14,160
Not in the sense of enunciating 
some logical contradiction and 

665
00:49:14,160 --> 00:49:15,640
saying that's what it's got to 
be. 

666
00:49:16,160 --> 00:49:18,320
There are things that I simply 
don't understand, right. 

667
00:49:18,880 --> 00:49:23,480
After all, Lawyer Rani Ha Dan 
Bakai, that means mankind, while

668
00:49:23,480 --> 00:49:27,080
live in this world cannot see 
meaning grasp. 

669
00:49:29,640 --> 00:49:32,720
So there are a lot of things we 
don't understand, but it's not 

670
00:49:32,720 --> 00:49:39,760
going to justify our engaging in
some facile and absurd division 

671
00:49:39,760 --> 00:49:45,800
in the realm of the divine or 
making khalilah Khalilah dahas. 

672
00:49:45,920 --> 00:49:49,080
I feel like I need to, you know,
even say the sentence part of 

673
00:49:49,080 --> 00:49:55,960
this world, because saying that 
means either of two things. 

674
00:49:55,960 --> 00:49:59,480
Either it's an equation with the
totality of this world, we call 

675
00:49:59,480 --> 00:50:06,280
it pantheism, or an association 
with some XM something in this 

676
00:50:06,280 --> 00:50:07,200
world. 
We call it paganism. 

677
00:50:07,200 --> 00:50:10,240
They're both here radical and we
certainly are not going to 

678
00:50:10,240 --> 00:50:13,600
subscribe to either one. 
As for speaking, that means I'm 

679
00:50:13,600 --> 00:50:16,400
just the absurdity of it boggles
the mind. 

680
00:50:17,120 --> 00:50:24,400
How could something that Haggis 
Raku creates even means for 

681
00:50:25,480 --> 00:50:29,280
addressing a need that otherwise
he wouldn't be able to? 

682
00:50:30,000 --> 00:50:34,080
I can't even say the sentence. 
It's just utterly absurd to 

683
00:50:34,120 --> 00:50:38,560
espouse absurdities and say, oh,
well, that's the enigma of 

684
00:50:38,560 --> 00:50:40,280
divinity. 
We have a name for that. 

685
00:50:40,400 --> 00:50:41,760
And actually it's it's a 
doctrine. 

686
00:50:41,760 --> 00:50:44,680
It's called feedeism, the 
presumption that faith is 

687
00:50:44,680 --> 00:50:47,520
antagonistic to reasoning. 
Jews are not feedeistic. 

688
00:50:48,320 --> 00:50:53,040
Pityism is something that arose 
as an explanation of various 

689
00:50:53,040 --> 00:50:54,080
statements of the Church 
Fathers. 

690
00:50:54,080 --> 00:50:57,440
We're not going to go into it, 
but I'm not saying it as an 

691
00:50:57,440 --> 00:51:01,960
indictment, saying it as the 
realization that in as much as 

692
00:51:01,960 --> 00:51:05,840
Christianity from the outset was
transcendentalistic, it could 

693
00:51:06,160 --> 00:51:11,280
accommodate not only a 
bifurcation, but an antagonism 

694
00:51:11,280 --> 00:51:14,080
between one's conception of this
world and one's conception of 

695
00:51:14,080 --> 00:51:16,320
theology. 
Because if you're a 

696
00:51:16,320 --> 00:51:19,720
transcendentalist, then you're 
not focusing on this world, 

697
00:51:19,720 --> 00:51:22,200
you're focusing someplace else. 
Jews are not transcendentalists.

698
00:51:22,320 --> 00:51:25,840
The Torah is all about reality, 
the reality of spirituality in 

699
00:51:25,840 --> 00:51:28,360
this world. 
So you got to be able to deal 

700
00:51:28,360 --> 00:51:30,920
with this world. 
So making all sorts of absurd 

701
00:51:30,920 --> 00:51:34,960
PDistic statements is just not 
going to cut it in Torah, even 

702
00:51:34,960 --> 00:51:36,640
if some people would like to do 
so. 

703
00:51:36,960 --> 00:51:41,160
It's not a matter of that the 
Rishonima Khalila were were 

704
00:51:41,160 --> 00:51:44,200
Greek. 
It's that anyone who makes a 

705
00:51:44,200 --> 00:51:46,920
statement like that does 
manifestly pay. 

706
00:51:46,920 --> 00:51:52,320
It's not. 
Doris So Rabbi Eisen, if I'm 

707
00:51:52,320 --> 00:51:54,920
just trying to make sure I'm 
understanding you and how that 

708
00:51:54,920 --> 00:52:00,360
goes with Rabbi Adlerstein's. 
So I think for you, even if you 

709
00:52:00,360 --> 00:52:06,720
were to agree with Rabbi 
Adlerstein's idea that Nitsoto 

710
00:52:06,720 --> 00:52:10,400
Ara is not necessarily trying to
bring God in, it's it's our way 

711
00:52:10,400 --> 00:52:14,920
of expressing the this, this 
dichotomy of God's oneness. 

712
00:52:14,920 --> 00:52:19,960
But his animation, you're saying
that to put any sort of word to 

713
00:52:19,960 --> 00:52:24,080
create any sort of confuse, we, 
we just simply have to recognize

714
00:52:24,360 --> 00:52:27,360
the fact that we cannot 
understand transcendence with 

715
00:52:27,640 --> 00:52:33,320
animation, instead of trying to 
put fancy words or fancy ideas 

716
00:52:33,560 --> 00:52:38,520
that can now just lead and 
spiral into many strange ideas. 

717
00:52:38,920 --> 00:52:40,440
Am I understanding you 
correctly? 

718
00:52:40,640 --> 00:52:42,600
I I don't think I'm saying 
anything different from what 

719
00:52:42,600 --> 00:52:44,200
Rabi Everstein said. 
In other words. 

720
00:52:45,120 --> 00:52:46,560
We. 
Use this nomenclature. 

721
00:52:46,600 --> 00:52:53,520
If I can cite an example from 
somewhat far afield, you know, 

722
00:52:53,520 --> 00:52:55,800
the premise of the company 
Diversification of Quantum 

723
00:52:55,800 --> 00:52:58,480
Mechanics is that we use 
classical terms in describing 

724
00:52:58,480 --> 00:53:02,720
phenomenon that simply cannot be
understood in the terms of 

725
00:53:03,440 --> 00:53:06,040
classical Newtonian physics. 
But we still use the 

726
00:53:06,120 --> 00:53:07,920
nomenclature because we already 
have nomenclature. 

727
00:53:07,920 --> 00:53:10,080
So in the same vein here, we're 
not going to make up a new 

728
00:53:10,080 --> 00:53:12,440
language that wouldn't really 
help very well because we'll be 

729
00:53:12,560 --> 00:53:15,160
just speaking in terms that no 
one else will understand. 

730
00:53:15,760 --> 00:53:18,120
So we use the terms that we 
have. 

731
00:53:18,760 --> 00:53:22,400
Indeed, again, we speak of 
Nisaltz, we can speak of 

732
00:53:22,400 --> 00:53:27,680
Khrotashem, we speak of Shrina. 
These are terms that didn't even

733
00:53:27,680 --> 00:53:29,680
arise in the regional name. 
They arrived in Kazao. 

734
00:53:31,280 --> 00:53:34,120
We see them explicitly. 
One could very well argue that 

735
00:53:34,400 --> 00:53:35,920
because I weren't in of any of 
them either. 

736
00:53:35,920 --> 00:53:41,240
We we we see them in the words 
of the Naveen right and 

737
00:53:42,640 --> 00:53:44,960
simultaneously going to ask me 
to give a rigorous 

738
00:53:44,960 --> 00:53:47,720
understanding. 
I have to be humble enough to 

739
00:53:47,720 --> 00:53:52,720
recognize that I am Basar Vadam 
and the flesh and blood creature

740
00:53:52,720 --> 00:53:56,240
is not going to be able to 
understand divinity as both 

741
00:53:56,720 --> 00:53:59,880
dharan and Rashotaran and raviol
savabo and sephirahim 

742
00:53:59,880 --> 00:54:03,480
expressively. 
If I, if I would know Hashem, I 

743
00:54:03,480 --> 00:54:07,000
would be Hashem, right? 
It's as simple as that. 

744
00:54:07,000 --> 00:54:12,400
We're not there, we're not going
to be there. 

745
00:54:12,960 --> 00:54:15,400
My thoughts are your thoughts. 
You always are my ways. 

746
00:54:15,800 --> 00:54:18,960
Period. 
That's an inviolable barrier to 

747
00:54:18,960 --> 00:54:20,920
our being able to understand. 
But at the very least, it's 

748
00:54:20,920 --> 00:54:24,920
important for us to be able to 
enunciate why we don't 

749
00:54:24,920 --> 00:54:26,680
understand. 
That is, if I was just going to 

750
00:54:26,680 --> 00:54:29,080
say we don't understand, then 
hey, I could have done that a 

751
00:54:29,080 --> 00:54:32,320
lot more tersely than I did. 
So you could say I'm just saying

752
00:54:32,320 --> 00:54:35,200
I don't understand in an 
extraordinarily verbose manner. 

753
00:54:35,760 --> 00:54:41,000
I I think the verbosity has 
justification here because it's 

754
00:54:41,000 --> 00:54:45,360
important for us to be able to 
enunciate why this is something 

755
00:54:45,760 --> 00:54:50,880
that I cannot understand and 
simultaneously why I am still 

756
00:54:50,880 --> 00:54:57,160
going to abide by these two 
premises that divine unity is 

757
00:54:57,160 --> 00:55:00,440
not going to be violated under 
any circumstance whatsoever. 

758
00:55:01,040 --> 00:55:04,880
Self mandated existence is the 
definition and that necessarily 

759
00:55:04,880 --> 00:55:12,640
has unity and lack of dependence
of contingency as the most 

760
00:55:12,720 --> 00:55:15,840
obvious corollaries. 
And simultaneously we look at a 

761
00:55:15,840 --> 00:55:20,840
world and we see manifest. 
To us, the most essential 

762
00:55:20,840 --> 00:55:25,280
deadrock of our belief in 
Agathas Prakhu is we experience 

763
00:55:25,520 --> 00:55:28,640
Hashem. 
That doesn't mean we are 

764
00:55:28,640 --> 00:55:31,600
encountering literal elokut. 
We experience Hashem because 

765
00:55:31,600 --> 00:55:35,800
Agathas Prakhu has made his 
presence manifest in this world.

766
00:55:36,080 --> 00:55:39,000
So I've said presence, I've said
manifest. 

767
00:55:39,840 --> 00:55:43,360
Of course, I could express this 
in terms of Shrinath and Giloi 

768
00:55:43,640 --> 00:55:47,480
and kavod and mitzvot and use a 
whole arsenal of vocabulary. 

769
00:55:47,480 --> 00:55:48,760
We're not going to understand 
it. 

770
00:55:49,360 --> 00:55:54,800
But to take that inability to 
understand that which transcends

771
00:55:54,800 --> 00:55:59,160
human can and get out our 
metaphysical broom and wipe it 

772
00:55:59,160 --> 00:56:01,120
off the table and say, oh, we 
understand that. 

773
00:56:02,040 --> 00:56:04,200
Again, I'm not going to repeat 
the heresy. 

774
00:56:04,200 --> 00:56:07,680
We don't do that sort of thing. 
But I'm going to get that that 

775
00:56:07,680 --> 00:56:11,000
heretical statement that that 
you made at the outset that 

776
00:56:11,000 --> 00:56:14,800
that's just doesn't compute. 
So I don't understand me. 

777
00:56:15,000 --> 00:56:19,360
It's not a license for spouting 
absurdities. 

778
00:56:20,680 --> 00:56:22,600
Very well said, but. 
Especially absurdities that go 

779
00:56:22,600 --> 00:56:26,240
against our masarat. 
So that's the thing that one of 

780
00:56:26,240 --> 00:56:29,960
the issues that I feel is 
happening is that people are 

781
00:56:30,080 --> 00:56:32,320
like you mentioned, a lot of 
these terms were were brought 

782
00:56:32,320 --> 00:56:34,800
down by Hazal Tatikim. 
What is, what is all that? 

783
00:56:34,800 --> 00:56:38,720
What is, what is, you know, 
whatever, whatever concepts came

784
00:56:38,800 --> 00:56:42,280
out, all these concepts, the 
problem is with the revelatory 

785
00:56:42,280 --> 00:56:46,480
nature of Kabbalah and Khasidut 
is that these ideas become more 

786
00:56:46,480 --> 00:56:48,840
and more defined over time with 
new meaning. 

787
00:56:49,440 --> 00:56:52,480
So now a Sadiq, does it mean 
something completely different 

788
00:56:52,480 --> 00:56:55,240
than it meant maybe 100 years 
ago, 1000 years ago? 

789
00:56:55,760 --> 00:56:57,960
That's really the issue. 
Because now there are certain, 

790
00:56:57,960 --> 00:57:01,640
let's say, groups that will see 
that, you know, the, the, the 

791
00:57:01,640 --> 00:57:05,120
Tadiq is atmos Sumehous 
Melubash, but goof or they'll 

792
00:57:05,120 --> 00:57:06,880
see that, you know, only through
the Tadiq. 

793
00:57:06,880 --> 00:57:08,760
Can you? 
Because what happens is, is that

794
00:57:09,360 --> 00:57:12,440
yes, we, we all agree that 
tadiqim are, are unbelievable 

795
00:57:12,440 --> 00:57:15,360
And, and we, we really admire 
them and we want to be like them

796
00:57:15,360 --> 00:57:18,400
and so on. 
But the, the idea of Hasidut 

797
00:57:18,760 --> 00:57:22,160
tends to, tends to have a 
different meaning. 

798
00:57:22,160 --> 00:57:26,760
Now it tends to be like it's the
vertical society where the where

799
00:57:26,760 --> 00:57:28,960
the Sadiq is basically above 
all. 

800
00:57:28,960 --> 00:57:31,880
He is an ulama at salute. 
He is beyond, you know. 

801
00:57:32,360 --> 00:57:33,000
Yeah, I know. 
I see. 

802
00:57:33,560 --> 00:57:35,920
Let me abbreviate the heresy. 
I'm sorry. 

803
00:57:35,920 --> 00:57:37,240
I just I I I. 
I know. 

804
00:57:38,240 --> 00:57:41,560
My my constitution is is 
somewhat delicate, I must admit.

805
00:57:41,560 --> 00:57:42,960
I. 
I think we should be no. 

806
00:57:44,200 --> 00:57:46,640
I think, I think it is 
sufficient for us to appreciate 

807
00:57:46,640 --> 00:57:53,120
in this regard, even if someone 
is a completely ignorant, 

808
00:57:54,240 --> 00:57:58,080
blithering idiot with respect to
any matters of the intellect and

809
00:57:58,080 --> 00:58:00,000
can't comprehend them. 
The arguments that we just 

810
00:58:00,000 --> 00:58:02,880
enunciated, we have something 
called the masoret. 

811
00:58:03,600 --> 00:58:09,760
The moment someone says no, it's
something that is developing in 

812
00:58:10,000 --> 00:58:12,520
brand new directions that have 
no earlier antecedent. 

813
00:58:12,640 --> 00:58:18,680
So there is a locus of movements
of Jews that do that sort of 

814
00:58:18,680 --> 00:58:20,640
thing. 
We call them reform, but we're 

815
00:58:20,640 --> 00:58:27,120
not reformed. 
Yeah, I think very easy to make 

816
00:58:27,120 --> 00:58:28,720
the mistake we. 
Believe We believe it is a 

817
00:58:28,760 --> 00:58:33,280
masoret. 
Of of seeing good ideas, which 

818
00:58:33,280 --> 00:58:37,160
happens right and left, good 
ideas that turn into 

819
00:58:37,160 --> 00:58:41,040
monstrosities by people taking 
them beyond where they were 

820
00:58:41,040 --> 00:58:46,720
supposed to go. 
But but to indict Kabola because

821
00:58:46,880 --> 00:58:50,320
Kabola led to Shoptite's fee. 
Yes, Kabola did lead to 

822
00:58:50,320 --> 00:58:54,440
Shoptite's fee, but it was a it 
was a misstatement of Kabbalah. 

823
00:58:55,040 --> 00:58:57,800
And maybe it took 
Aerchencholum's fattest volume 

824
00:58:58,200 --> 00:59:02,600
to at least suggest where it 
went wrong, but it but it did go

825
00:59:02,600 --> 00:59:05,360
wrong. 
I I don't think that Rove minion

826
00:59:05,360 --> 00:59:10,520
and Rove Binion of people today 
who who have an appreciation of,

827
00:59:10,560 --> 00:59:15,000
of Kabbalah have any stomach for
thinking for for phrases like 

828
00:59:15,400 --> 00:59:21,920
the Optimus of Akersburg who 
Muluvash and the yeah, yeah, I, 

829
00:59:23,040 --> 00:59:24,680
I, I, but. 
By Adler saying one thing I 

830
00:59:24,680 --> 00:59:27,120
would tell you though, is I 
understand what you're saying 

831
00:59:27,120 --> 00:59:31,360
and I'm in agreement with you 
earlier Kabbalah, especially 

832
00:59:31,360 --> 00:59:34,320
Kabbalah by the by the Rashonim 
by the Rashonim. 

833
00:59:34,640 --> 00:59:42,560
Of course it's not on the same 
they they, they spent a large 

834
00:59:42,560 --> 00:59:46,920
amount of time trying to 
preserve fundamentals, right of 

835
00:59:46,920 --> 00:59:49,520
God's unity and all that. 
I understand. 

836
00:59:50,160 --> 00:59:53,360
I think where though the problem
is, is that when you create an 

837
00:59:53,360 --> 00:59:58,480
entire doctrine, there's a 
problem when when the entire 

838
00:59:58,480 --> 01:00:04,320
language of Kabbalah, even when 
you're even at the most careful 

839
01:00:04,320 --> 01:00:07,920
point, even when you go back to 
the Ramban and the Ramchal who 

840
01:00:07,920 --> 01:00:11,200
have made great, great, great 
strides to make sure language 

841
01:00:11,200 --> 01:00:16,600
doesn't get jumbled and mixed up
and confused and and spiraling 

842
01:00:16,600 --> 01:00:19,640
into something else. 
At the end of the day, when you 

843
01:00:19,680 --> 01:00:23,600
introduce an anthropomorphic 
doctrine again, not that they 

844
01:00:23,600 --> 01:00:26,880
meant to be anthropomorphic 
here, obviously I'm I'm I'm in 

845
01:00:26,880 --> 01:00:29,960
agreement with you up until 
those points, right? 

846
01:00:30,160 --> 01:00:32,360
They didn't necessarily mean for
it. 

847
01:00:32,600 --> 01:00:37,640
But when you introduce an A 
doctrine which points towards an

848
01:00:37,640 --> 01:00:43,080
anthropomorphic language, the 
end result is most likely always

849
01:00:43,080 --> 01:00:46,720
going to be what the result 
actually happened, at least from

850
01:00:46,720 --> 01:00:51,680
how I'm instead now the as a as 
a as an example, though, see the

851
01:00:51,680 --> 01:00:55,640
Rambam, Maimonides and and 
delusion and actually, we should

852
01:00:55,640 --> 01:00:59,280
say overshone him in that from 
that perspective, they spoke the

853
01:00:59,280 --> 01:01:03,160
language is always negative, 
negative theology wise, right. 

854
01:01:03,160 --> 01:01:07,040
We're trying to negate, negate, 
negate because when you point 

855
01:01:07,040 --> 01:01:10,680
the arrow that way, you're safe.
There's nowhere where that's 

856
01:01:10,680 --> 01:01:13,640
really going to go wrong. 
You might not get it perfect, 

857
01:01:13,800 --> 01:01:18,920
but you're not going to go wrong
here with Kabbalah with the best

858
01:01:18,920 --> 01:01:20,840
of intentions. 
And I'm, I promise I'm in full 

859
01:01:20,840 --> 01:01:23,080
agreement with you, best of 
intentions. 

860
01:01:23,440 --> 01:01:27,640
But you see, because of the 
nature of its language, it's 

861
01:01:27,640 --> 01:01:32,280
almost like it's a matter of 
time until it goes in the 

862
01:01:32,280 --> 01:01:35,240
direction it went. 
That's all I wanted to say and I

863
01:01:35,240 --> 01:01:37,080
apologize. 
I don't mean to offend her in 

864
01:01:37,080 --> 01:01:39,240
any way. 
I These things are important to 

865
01:01:39,240 --> 01:01:41,360
me, you know. 
That's the job we got to clarify

866
01:01:41,400 --> 01:01:43,680
it. 
But but, but it just reminds me 

867
01:01:43,680 --> 01:01:48,520
of the Gemara of the, the Kofair
who came to one of the, I don't 

868
01:01:48,520 --> 01:01:52,480
remember Tanner and Amora and 
said, you know, but Kurzberg who

869
01:01:52,480 --> 01:01:56,200
hates Avodah Zara so much, you 
know, why doesn't he just cancel

870
01:01:56,200 --> 01:01:58,920
it? 
And, and, and he and he said, 

871
01:01:59,120 --> 01:02:03,480
look, people worship the sun and
moon, but the sun in particular 

872
01:02:03,480 --> 01:02:06,120
for good reason. 
Should I, Kurzberg, who 

873
01:02:06,120 --> 01:02:08,440
destroyed the sun and destroyed 
the world because of those 

874
01:02:08,440 --> 01:02:12,640
fools? 
I don't think that I I fiercely 

875
01:02:12,640 --> 01:02:15,880
resist what you're what you're 
the implication of what you're 

876
01:02:15,880 --> 01:02:19,560
saying that well, the early 
Mukilbolom got it right and then

877
01:02:19,560 --> 01:02:21,800
it it it just went off the 
tracks. 

878
01:02:22,040 --> 01:02:23,840
I think that some people went 
off the tracks. 

879
01:02:24,040 --> 01:02:29,000
I don't think it defines the 
majority of people by by any 

880
01:02:29,000 --> 01:02:32,640
means. 
Look, I'm not a Bucky in in in 

881
01:02:32,960 --> 01:02:38,400
this, but I would be surprised 
if you find found the vocabulary

882
01:02:38,400 --> 01:02:43,560
that you're rightfully pushing 
back against in any of the 

883
01:02:43,560 --> 01:02:51,880
descendants of the Itakadash of 
of of that's I can. 

884
01:02:52,440 --> 01:02:56,560
There's simple, there's simple. 
Bunim in particular. 

885
01:02:57,080 --> 01:03:00,960
OK, talking about the the gear 
and you know the ones that are 

886
01:03:00,960 --> 01:03:03,120
that are. 
Warmer the, the ones, the ones, 

887
01:03:03,280 --> 01:03:07,600
the ones who are still into 
thinking through issues. 

888
01:03:07,800 --> 01:03:10,280
There's a fascinating paper 
which I would recommend to 

889
01:03:10,280 --> 01:03:15,080
people written by my friend and 
neighbor, Professor Benny Brown 

890
01:03:16,280 --> 01:03:22,440
on the what happened in certain 
parts of Glacedus. 

891
01:03:22,920 --> 01:03:26,280
I, I think you'll be very happy 
with the, with the paper. 

892
01:03:26,520 --> 01:03:29,840
And he, he made the very cogent 
observation that up until fairly

893
01:03:29,840 --> 01:03:33,600
recent times, you have sort of 
two different views of the 

894
01:03:33,600 --> 01:03:36,280
universe, but they'd be both 
systematic. 

895
01:03:36,680 --> 01:03:41,120
You had a rationalist way of 
looking at the, at the, at the 

896
01:03:41,120 --> 01:03:44,720
world and you had a kabbalistic 
way, but they were both 

897
01:03:44,720 --> 01:03:46,800
systematized. 
They asked questions that were 

898
01:03:46,800 --> 01:03:51,880
theorems, they were axioms. 
And then a kind of negative 

899
01:03:51,880 --> 01:03:55,080
theology, a different kind of 
negative theology than what you 

900
01:03:55,080 --> 01:03:58,680
were referring to, took over in 
which all questions became us 

901
01:03:58,680 --> 01:04:01,840
and we just made statements. 
And that left room. 

902
01:04:02,360 --> 01:04:06,000
Sort of like, you know, one of 
the reasons people enjoy 

903
01:04:06,000 --> 01:04:09,200
learning Rambam is because you 
can say whatever you want and 

904
01:04:09,200 --> 01:04:10,720
you know, like. 
Who's there to tell you that 

905
01:04:10,720 --> 01:04:13,560
you're? 
Wrong is such in in places such 

906
01:04:13,560 --> 01:04:16,720
a tabula rasa, but that that 
doesn't mean that we shouldn't 

907
01:04:16,720 --> 01:04:19,160
continue to to figure out what 
the Rambam meant. 

908
01:04:19,480 --> 01:04:22,920
So I I don't think that it's a 
question of early Kabbala versus

909
01:04:22,920 --> 01:04:27,320
late Kabbala. 
I think it's early Kabbalah 

910
01:04:27,320 --> 01:04:29,440
certainly didn't have the 
problem, although I could point 

911
01:04:29,440 --> 01:04:34,080
to a couple of places that will 
raise your hair. 

912
01:04:35,960 --> 01:04:43,760
But but the the the the idea of 
of, you know, couldn't they see 

913
01:04:43,760 --> 01:04:46,440
where it was going is no more of
an indictment to them than 

914
01:04:46,440 --> 01:04:49,600
Takotos Berkle for using 
anthropomorphic language 

915
01:04:49,600 --> 01:04:54,640
throughout Tanakh. 
Didn't people realize or 

916
01:04:54,640 --> 01:04:59,040
voracious Barohelo Kim. 
What's that floral doing there 

917
01:04:59,200 --> 01:05:01,040
in that first pusuk in the 
Torah. 

918
01:05:03,400 --> 01:05:07,360
We're on to something. 
No, I I I I don't accept that 

919
01:05:07,840 --> 01:05:11,080
two other two other points. 
If I can, if I can remember 

920
01:05:11,080 --> 01:05:14,960
them. 
One of them is that, at the risk

921
01:05:14,960 --> 01:05:21,080
of turning this wonderful 
theoretical conversation into 

922
01:05:21,080 --> 01:05:25,000
something pragmatic, I would 
just point out that what Rabbi 

923
01:05:25,000 --> 01:05:29,400
Eisen offered us a few minutes 
ago is one of the most important

924
01:05:29,400 --> 01:05:33,520
tools for facing a whole bunch 
of issues. 

925
01:05:34,000 --> 01:05:37,040
What do I mean? 
That it's not only the question 

926
01:05:37,040 --> 01:05:42,520
of God's presence and pantheism 
and pantheism, but the existence

927
01:05:42,520 --> 01:05:46,400
of evil. 
I remember in Los Angeles the 

928
01:05:46,400 --> 01:05:52,320
great earthquake and all of the 
and all of the the, the, the, 

929
01:05:52,560 --> 01:05:58,200
the, the death, the destruction.
The ground had barely ceased 

930
01:05:58,200 --> 01:06:02,560
moving before a 
Reconstructionist rabbi in the 

931
01:06:02,560 --> 01:06:09,040
valley wrote an article for the 
world saying God does not do 

932
01:06:09,040 --> 01:06:11,920
earthquakes. 
God is not responsible for 

933
01:06:11,920 --> 01:06:15,320
earthquakes. 
God is only responsible for the 

934
01:06:15,320 --> 01:06:18,760
good things, the things that we 
like, but anything that we don't

935
01:06:18,760 --> 01:06:21,600
like that comes from some other 
place entirely. 

936
01:06:21,600 --> 01:06:28,720
So of course he was a duelist. 
And what, what people, what 

937
01:06:28,720 --> 01:06:32,280
people should realize is that 
what Rabbi Eisen was suggesting 

938
01:06:32,840 --> 01:06:39,760
is one of the triumphs of 
Yahadut that we would rather say

939
01:06:39,760 --> 01:06:42,400
full faced. 
This is a question. 

940
01:06:43,000 --> 01:06:46,400
The reason we can't understand 
it is because we are not 

941
01:06:46,400 --> 01:06:49,320
Hakodesh Baraku and you have to 
be Hakodesh Baraku. 

942
01:06:49,320 --> 01:06:52,080
As I said, you said, to 
understand him. 

943
01:06:52,320 --> 01:06:54,960
We would rather say I don't 
understand. 

944
01:06:54,960 --> 01:06:57,560
I have no hope of understanding,
at least not in this life. 

945
01:06:57,800 --> 01:07:03,440
It cannot be understood to say 
that rather than to pick at 

946
01:07:03,440 --> 01:07:08,520
facile arguments, which are 
corruptions and denials of what 

947
01:07:08,520 --> 01:07:11,240
Hakodesh Baraku is. 
It's not just in this issue, 

948
01:07:11,240 --> 01:07:15,040
it's certainly in the existence 
of of evil where people will 

949
01:07:15,040 --> 01:07:17,600
still say that. 
You know, last week or whenever 

950
01:07:17,600 --> 01:07:22,440
it was after the assassination 
and Trump was saying, even Trump

951
01:07:22,440 --> 01:07:25,200
said this was this was God 
working. 

952
01:07:25,200 --> 01:07:30,600
And the amount of mockery you 
found in some of the media. 

953
01:07:30,960 --> 01:07:37,280
Oh yeah, God saved him. 
So where was God when my 

954
01:07:37,280 --> 01:07:42,120
mother-in-law was in the way of 
an oncoming bus and he didn't 

955
01:07:42,120 --> 01:07:45,280
run her over? 
You know, if, if God's really 

956
01:07:45,280 --> 01:07:48,800
out there, why didn't he take 
care of business there? 

957
01:07:49,040 --> 01:07:52,880
Or why does God allow evil? 
There is no God. 

958
01:07:53,160 --> 01:07:57,040
Stop it. 
You know, that kind of of of 

959
01:07:57,080 --> 01:08:01,680
equally contemptible thinking. 
At least it wasn't coming from 

960
01:08:02,560 --> 01:08:06,640
from what people close they, 
they wouldn't, you know, the, 

961
01:08:06,800 --> 01:08:08,960
the statements you dealt with 
were not coming from the 

962
01:08:08,960 --> 01:08:11,640
Orthodox world. 
They were clearly beyond the 

963
01:08:11,640 --> 01:08:14,440
pale of the Orthodox world, but 
they were coming from people who

964
01:08:14,440 --> 01:08:16,520
called themselves rabbis and 
scholars. 

965
01:08:19,160 --> 01:08:22,960
One other point, the idea of how
Arora and Nitzevitz and all of 

966
01:08:22,960 --> 01:08:28,720
those terms is, are those terms 
are not just there to describe 

967
01:08:28,720 --> 01:08:30,359
the connection of a Kurdishburg 
in the world. 

968
01:08:30,359 --> 01:08:33,120
They're there for one for at 
least one of the purpose as 

969
01:08:33,120 --> 01:08:35,880
well, which we have avoided 
entirely in this broadcast, 

970
01:08:35,880 --> 01:08:39,479
probably for good reason. 
And that is that there's another

971
01:08:39,479 --> 01:08:44,920
essential paradox that we live 
with, and that is the existence 

972
01:08:45,120 --> 01:08:51,960
of limit limitedness in with 
within Hakoto's bark, who is 

973
01:08:51,960 --> 01:08:55,200
limitless. 
Again, the idea that spawned 

974
01:08:55,279 --> 01:09:00,960
Simpson as an answer, but 
Kabbalah wasn't wasn't content 

975
01:09:00,960 --> 01:09:04,560
with just saying Simpson. 
It then had the task of 

976
01:09:04,720 --> 01:09:09,040
understanding as much as 
possible of how you could go 

977
01:09:09,439 --> 01:09:16,160
from the purely spiritual to a 
world of material. 

978
01:09:16,720 --> 01:09:20,880
Ultimately you're confounded 
with a Jewish form of Zeno's 

979
01:09:20,880 --> 01:09:24,319
paradox. 
The whole idea of Ishthal 

980
01:09:24,319 --> 01:09:29,160
Shalhos through the Olamos and 
then the Spheros transmuting 

981
01:09:29,399 --> 01:09:33,600
Hakushburg who is spiritual 
Shephat, till at some magical 

982
01:09:33,600 --> 01:09:39,760
point which we can never 
describe, somehow the this 

983
01:09:39,760 --> 01:09:43,319
becomes manifest in a material 
world. 

984
01:09:43,560 --> 01:09:49,399
That's another reason for this 
whole structure that was that we

985
01:09:49,399 --> 01:09:51,960
find in the world in the in in 
the world of Kabala. 

986
01:09:53,920 --> 01:09:55,520
I'll let Rabbi eyes. 
And say that's what that's one 

987
01:09:55,520 --> 01:09:57,640
and the same. 
You know, that's essentially the

988
01:09:57,640 --> 01:10:02,360
conundrum of evil, the conundrum
of divinity not being in this 

989
01:10:02,360 --> 01:10:08,000
world that are being able to 
perceive, to experience this 

990
01:10:08,000 --> 01:10:10,840
divine imminence. 
The the conflict all together, 

991
01:10:10,840 --> 01:10:13,880
divine transcendence and divine 
imminence is all really one and 

992
01:10:13,880 --> 01:10:18,000
the same. 
I, I, I, I must admit that that 

993
01:10:18,000 --> 01:10:21,480
someone could purport in the 
name of Judaism to make a 

994
01:10:21,480 --> 01:10:25,160
statement that is so radically 
dualistic. 

995
01:10:25,760 --> 01:10:29,280
I mean, I guess maybe he didn't 
regard himself as beholden to 

996
01:10:29,280 --> 01:10:35,080
anything Jewish altogether with 
respect to the conundrum of the 

997
01:10:35,080 --> 01:10:43,280
existence of evil. 
The the supposed clergyman whom 

998
01:10:43,280 --> 01:10:48,640
you cited after the earthquake 
in Los Angeles, I would have 

999
01:10:48,640 --> 01:10:52,760
thought on some level would at 
the very least be beholden, if 

1000
01:10:52,760 --> 01:10:57,240
not to Talmudic or rabbinical 
teachings, at the very least to 

1001
01:10:57,560 --> 01:11:02,680
Tanakh. 
That is, when we read in Isaiah 

1002
01:11:02,680 --> 01:11:09,920
Yoshiyahu chapter 45 verse 7, 
the God is Yosef O overeek oseh 

1003
01:11:09,920 --> 01:11:14,520
Shalom ovorega, God explicitly 
identifies himself as the 

1004
01:11:14,520 --> 01:11:22,280
creator of evil, and we may 
augment that also with Amos in 

1005
01:11:23,560 --> 01:11:28,520
the era ABBA irbashem LO Siva 
that the the source of 

1006
01:11:28,520 --> 01:11:33,480
everything that happens, the 
negative as well is necessarily 

1007
01:11:33,480 --> 01:11:38,320
going to be the divine command. 
What we read in Aha the P 

1008
01:11:38,320 --> 01:11:40,880
Eliondo, also a rhetorical 
question. 

1009
01:11:40,880 --> 01:11:43,120
Obviously everything. 
I'm sorry for Hashem, but with 

1010
01:11:43,120 --> 01:11:48,520
respect to the Pasukin Yeshaya, 
which if anything is the most 

1011
01:11:48,520 --> 01:11:56,240
explicit boure, the comment of 
Rambam in Myrna Bokim in the 

1012
01:11:56,240 --> 01:12:01,960
third Kelek in Perekyod, where 
Rambam very prosaically notes an

1013
01:12:02,320 --> 01:12:06,040
exegetical conundrum. 
There are three verbs that are 

1014
01:12:06,040 --> 01:12:10,720
employed in the pasuk, Yosser, 
Beauvais and Oser. 

1015
01:12:11,000 --> 01:12:12,160
What's the distinction among 
them? 

1016
01:12:12,160 --> 01:12:17,240
In particular, we invoke 
Beauvais before we even get to 

1017
01:12:17,240 --> 01:12:21,440
the subject of evil. 
With respect to darkness, how do

1018
01:12:21,440 --> 01:12:23,360
you create darkness? 
Darkness isn't a presence, 

1019
01:12:23,360 --> 01:12:28,280
darkness is an absence. 
And Rambam notes, even though it

1020
01:12:28,280 --> 01:12:33,000
is a subject of a dissension 
among the commentators, the well

1021
01:12:33,000 --> 01:12:38,600
established tradition that Bara 
is the verb that we knew used to

1022
01:12:38,600 --> 01:12:42,000
describe creation X nilo, 
creating from nothing, says 

1023
01:12:42,000 --> 01:12:44,800
Rambam. 
It's amazing to the Force that 

1024
01:12:44,960 --> 01:12:48,680
this tells us that Bara is a 
verse, is a verb that is 

1025
01:12:48,680 --> 01:12:54,080
associated with nothingness. 
So in the story of creation, it 

1026
01:12:54,080 --> 01:12:58,960
is of course creating from 
nothing, and in this enigmatic 

1027
01:12:59,000 --> 01:13:05,240
verse in yeshayao, it is 
creating a nothing. 

1028
01:13:06,200 --> 01:13:11,920
You've said, oh, God forms 
light, but creates the 

1029
01:13:11,920 --> 01:13:13,480
potentiality to the light being 
withdrawn. 

1030
01:13:13,920 --> 01:13:21,280
That is tantamount to creating 
this absence, creating darkness,

1031
01:13:21,560 --> 01:13:25,040
and likewise creating evil, 
because evil is always an 

1032
01:13:25,040 --> 01:13:28,240
absence rather than a presence. 
Which of course further 

1033
01:13:28,240 --> 01:13:32,760
amplifies the absurdity of 
ascription of anything like evil

1034
01:13:34,080 --> 01:13:37,080
as an actuality in the rumble of
the divine. 

1035
01:13:37,200 --> 01:13:41,360
Because after all, God is 
presence, not absence. 

1036
01:13:42,480 --> 01:13:47,400
But at the same time, because we
are a duelist and everything has

1037
01:13:47,480 --> 01:13:53,920
its source in Hakadosh Barako, 
then the potentiality for evil 

1038
01:13:54,320 --> 01:13:56,440
that necessarily is in the 
rumble of the divine. 

1039
01:13:56,440 --> 01:13:59,080
And of course, we see this as 
the most concrete terms. 

1040
01:13:59,360 --> 01:14:01,880
Where's the 1st place that evil 
appears in Tanakh? 

1041
01:14:02,320 --> 01:14:05,320
The tree, it's Haddad Tovara, 
the tree of knowing good and 

1042
01:14:05,320 --> 01:14:09,120
evil, the potentiality of evil. 
What makes the evil not merely a

1043
01:14:09,120 --> 01:14:13,040
potential, but something actual 
man taking of the tree of the 

1044
01:14:13,040 --> 01:14:17,800
fruit of the tree and eating it.
And and that really summarizes 

1045
01:14:17,800 --> 01:14:20,400
our attitude with respect to 
evil, that ultimately everything

1046
01:14:20,400 --> 01:14:22,920
has its sorts in the realm of 
the divine. 

1047
01:14:23,560 --> 01:14:27,720
Simultaneously, the whole 
challenge of creation is God 

1048
01:14:27,880 --> 01:14:30,800
gives us potentiality and then 
summons us to make the right 

1049
01:14:30,800 --> 01:14:35,800
choice. 
And is that statement rife with 

1050
01:14:35,800 --> 01:14:37,280
conundrums? 
Of course it is. 

1051
01:14:38,040 --> 01:14:40,680
As we've discussed previously, 
free will itself is a conundrum,

1052
01:14:41,960 --> 01:14:44,000
like the Trump will create 
something that is entirely 

1053
01:14:44,000 --> 01:14:47,160
contingent on him for its 
existence, but it exists 

1054
01:14:48,000 --> 01:14:50,040
independent of him. 
That doesn't make any sense. 

1055
01:14:50,960 --> 01:14:56,200
We understand, we're again, 
we're our minds come up against 

1056
01:14:56,920 --> 01:15:01,520
an impenetrable wall. 
It's not going to justify our 

1057
01:15:01,520 --> 01:15:09,880
making absurd statements and 
ascribing them, excuse me, in 

1058
01:15:09,880 --> 01:15:14,960
the same way that we as children
at a juvenile birthday party go 

1059
01:15:14,960 --> 01:15:16,760
about trying to pin a tail on a 
donkey. 

1060
01:15:18,920 --> 01:15:20,920
I remember going to say a lot of
the other because they're both 

1061
01:15:22,000 --> 01:15:24,840
criminal absurdities. 
We're not coming to do either 

1062
01:15:24,840 --> 01:15:29,760
one of them. 
There is a locus of movements 

1063
01:15:29,760 --> 01:15:32,640
among Jews. 
I'm conspicuously not referring 

1064
01:15:32,640 --> 01:15:38,920
to them as Jewish movements that
have as their premise that we 

1065
01:15:38,920 --> 01:15:42,160
can come up with completely new 
ideas. 

1066
01:15:42,160 --> 01:15:45,600
We may use a traditional 
vocabulary, but completely 

1067
01:15:45,600 --> 01:15:47,040
divorced from traditional 
meanings. 

1068
01:15:47,640 --> 01:15:55,400
And that locus of movements we 
call reform in, ironically in 

1069
01:15:55,400 --> 01:16:00,320
the Protestant church, the 
Reformation reform was based 

1070
01:16:00,320 --> 01:16:03,400
upon the premise there was 
something that had become 

1071
01:16:03,440 --> 01:16:05,800
utterly corrupt in the church, 
and therefore we were going to 

1072
01:16:05,800 --> 01:16:08,920
go back to something earlier, 
more original. 

1073
01:16:10,840 --> 01:16:15,240
And it it really is breathtaking
how fraudulent the implication 

1074
01:16:15,240 --> 01:16:20,360
of the term reform is then by 
those Jews who weren't going 

1075
01:16:20,360 --> 01:16:24,160
back to anything original. 
They were simply pulling in 

1076
01:16:24,160 --> 01:16:26,880
fabrication of thin air because 
they weren't interested in 

1077
01:16:26,880 --> 01:16:30,520
tradition. 
Well, anyone who does that 

1078
01:16:31,120 --> 01:16:38,320
essential activity, even if, 
excuse me, he does it wearing a 

1079
01:16:38,320 --> 01:16:42,080
strimel and a bekaa, is reform. 
We have a tradition. 

1080
01:16:42,800 --> 01:16:48,880
The the premise that is most 
essential in Torah is we have a 

1081
01:16:48,880 --> 01:16:52,400
massara. 
Which is precisely why, as 

1082
01:16:52,440 --> 01:16:56,880
Rambam so famously expresses it,
those who are Mahishay Magideha,

1083
01:16:58,240 --> 01:17:02,760
those who deny that there is a 
transmission of a masoret of 

1084
01:17:02,760 --> 01:17:05,080
Torah, forfeit their share in 
the world to come. 

1085
01:17:08,200 --> 01:17:11,160
But the difficulty is with, you 
know, they all say that they 

1086
01:17:11,160 --> 01:17:13,720
have the Masoret. 
They they all say that the 

1087
01:17:13,720 --> 01:17:18,720
masoret is, is was revealed to a
certain small group of people or

1088
01:17:18,720 --> 01:17:21,120
revealed in certain periods that
that's a separate issue. 

1089
01:17:21,360 --> 01:17:23,520
But it is something that it's 
not that they deny that there's 

1090
01:17:23,520 --> 01:17:25,720
a masoret. 
They just have new definitions. 

1091
01:17:26,000 --> 01:17:29,320
And it's hard to really, you 
know, how do we respond to these

1092
01:17:29,320 --> 01:17:31,320
things without sounding like 
we're criticizing the whole 

1093
01:17:31,320 --> 01:17:31,840
system? 
I'm. 

1094
01:17:31,960 --> 01:17:37,880
Sorry, we we respond through 
going back to the services. 

1095
01:17:38,480 --> 01:17:42,240
That is as a case in point when 
we consider Rambam's repudiation

1096
01:17:42,240 --> 01:17:46,080
of literalism in Agada. 
It wasn't saying that Rambam 

1097
01:17:46,080 --> 01:17:49,840
came up with it's written in the
early writings of the Ghonim. 

1098
01:17:50,400 --> 01:17:53,480
We've seen it explicitly 
Rasadhya Ravshira Ravshwa 

1099
01:17:53,480 --> 01:18:00,080
Barhofni Ravhai, the Ghonim as 
well as the earlier Rishonim, 

1100
01:18:00,480 --> 01:18:06,920
Rabino Khananel, Rabino Nissim 
Gaon Raviudalevi and certainly 

1101
01:18:07,160 --> 01:18:11,920
by the gamut of later Rishonim, 
including the Ladakh Rabin, 

1102
01:18:11,920 --> 01:18:30,880
Rambam, Ramban Verona, Rashba 
and again, as we noted, even 

1103
01:18:31,160 --> 01:18:38,080
among the but he still talks 
about the Agadoth 

1104
01:18:38,160 --> 01:18:40,600
Hamishabhshotta. 
They ought Ramban Ramban 

1105
01:18:40,600 --> 01:18:43,440
certainly had a children of 
Kabbalah and in the Garrett 

1106
01:18:43,440 --> 01:18:45,640
Aruka, he completely affirms 
theology of Rambam. 

1107
01:18:46,600 --> 01:18:51,400
And, and while we will note, 
yes, if if you ask me, is there 

1108
01:18:51,400 --> 01:18:54,400
any dissenting voice, there is a
dissenting voice certainly on 

1109
01:18:54,400 --> 01:18:58,320
the subject of literalism in 
Agadah, which has profound 

1110
01:18:58,320 --> 01:19:01,400
implications with respect to 
much of this discussion among 

1111
01:19:01,400 --> 01:19:08,200
the Richonim. 
We can cite two in particular, 

1112
01:19:11,040 --> 01:19:16,560
Roshan Shams and Rabbi Moshe 
Tako of Regensburg, who 

1113
01:19:16,560 --> 01:19:20,400
definitely seem to advocate and 
uncompromising literalism in 

1114
01:19:20,520 --> 01:19:24,440
Agatha. 
But you know, it's noteworthy, 

1115
01:19:25,480 --> 01:19:31,480
the premier exponent of this 
literalism, Rabbi Moshe Tako. 

1116
01:19:32,600 --> 01:19:35,800
I must admit, on a personal 
plane, the subject of the very 

1117
01:19:36,120 --> 01:19:39,240
first line that I had the 
privilege of hearing from 

1118
01:19:39,240 --> 01:19:41,400
Rabatleston when we first met, 
He asked me what do I have to 

1119
01:19:41,400 --> 01:19:47,720
say about Rabbosh attack and, 
and, and from there it was great

1120
01:19:47,800 --> 01:19:49,480
sailing, and it's been great 
sailing since. 

1121
01:19:51,000 --> 01:19:57,840
And while his composition on 
this subject was quoted in 

1122
01:19:58,240 --> 01:20:01,600
contemporaneous Ashkenazi 
literature, it's noteworthy that

1123
01:20:01,600 --> 01:20:03,760
only one fabric fragment 
survived. 

1124
01:20:04,160 --> 01:20:14,960
And it was first published in a 
scholarly compendium in Kukhmat,

1125
01:20:14,960 --> 01:20:20,680
Israel in the mid 19th century, 
Ottarn Ahmad by Rafael Kershaw. 

1126
01:20:21,880 --> 01:20:27,160
And what is noteworthy, besides 
the extraordinary rarity of the 

1127
01:20:27,160 --> 01:20:32,280
statement, is the extent to 
which he clearly appreciated 

1128
01:20:32,280 --> 01:20:35,760
himself, how he needed to 
descend with everyone that came 

1129
01:20:35,760 --> 01:20:41,160
before him. 
That is, his primary target 

1130
01:20:41,760 --> 01:20:43,800
isn't Rambam. 
His primary target is Ramsadhya.

1131
01:20:45,320 --> 01:20:52,320
And besides his targeting 
Ramsadhya, there's also an 

1132
01:20:53,400 --> 01:20:58,720
assault on Ibn Ezra, Rambam, 
Rabudah, Hasid. 

1133
01:21:01,320 --> 01:21:06,680
It's it's difficult to see that 
there was any long term effect 

1134
01:21:07,040 --> 01:21:14,160
of Ravi Moshe of tacos polemics.
But we will note that there was 

1135
01:21:14,160 --> 01:21:19,760
one other singular individual 
who lived much later, Raviosa 

1136
01:21:19,760 --> 01:21:23,160
Ashkenazi. 
He lived in the mid 16th century

1137
01:21:23,160 --> 01:21:26,640
Laminianam and he expressed a 
similar outlook. 

1138
01:21:27,800 --> 01:21:32,600
He mainly attacked Rabbi Abram 
Ezra, Rambam Al Bag Rabbi 

1139
01:21:32,600 --> 01:21:35,920
yourself Albo also railing 
predictably again. 

1140
01:21:35,920 --> 01:21:39,760
So Sajigaon, Rabbi Bakhi Ibn 
Pakoda, Rabbi Azrael Girana, who

1141
01:21:39,760 --> 01:21:44,120
was one of the great Kubali, 
Radak, Ramban, also Kubal 

1142
01:21:44,120 --> 01:21:51,000
Gabbiona, Rabbiona Rashba 
Pabbien Bachi Benasche Abbisaki,

1143
01:21:51,000 --> 01:21:58,360
Sraeli, Tamil de Rosh. 
He was also one of the great 

1144
01:21:58,400 --> 01:22:02,760
Kubalin period, the period 
adjacent to the expulsion, you 

1145
01:22:02,760 --> 01:22:05,240
know. 
So they themselves recognized 

1146
01:22:05,720 --> 01:22:08,360
that they were the ones who are 
going not against the 

1147
01:22:08,360 --> 01:22:11,080
mainstream, against everyone. 
So yeah. 

1148
01:22:11,120 --> 01:22:16,720
So if I may recall this 
conversation that you and I had 

1149
01:22:18,160 --> 01:22:22,840
almost 20 years ago, I 
distinguish between saying that 

1150
01:22:22,840 --> 01:22:29,080
a viewpoint is unacceptable and 
illegitimate based upon the 

1151
01:22:29,760 --> 01:22:33,880
position, which admittedly is a 
dissension among the Rishanim as

1152
01:22:33,880 --> 01:22:38,080
well, that if something does not
explicitly contravene a Gemara, 

1153
01:22:38,080 --> 01:22:40,320
I can't say it's illegitimate, 
but it's definitely unacceptable

1154
01:22:40,320 --> 01:22:41,680
because it goes against 
everyone. 

1155
01:22:42,000 --> 01:22:44,080
We haven't saw it. 
That's a good point. 

1156
01:22:44,840 --> 01:22:48,360
So, so it's not simply a matter 
of saying, well, I claim that I 

1157
01:22:48,360 --> 01:22:49,840
have my sources. 
You claim you have your sources.

1158
01:22:49,840 --> 01:22:55,280
No, that doesn't make everything
into a game of relativism. 

1159
01:22:55,800 --> 01:22:57,560
There's a clear massage that I'm
Israel. 

1160
01:22:58,200 --> 01:23:01,600
So aside from the starting point
of this discussion, which was 

1161
01:23:01,800 --> 01:23:06,440
that Sehel mandates these 
conclusions, we have a clear 

1162
01:23:06,440 --> 01:23:09,000
massage that dictates the 
conclusions that we've reached. 

1163
01:23:09,400 --> 01:23:15,120
Anyone who wants to fly in the 
face of that massage, excuse me,

1164
01:23:15,280 --> 01:23:18,160
has chosen a path of reform. 
Not reform in the in the 

1165
01:23:18,160 --> 01:23:21,080
positive sense that the 
Protestants invoked it, the 

1166
01:23:21,080 --> 01:23:29,440
reform in the most objectionable
manner that Jews invoked it in 

1167
01:23:29,440 --> 01:23:33,520
the 19th century. 
In invoking this label to excuse

1168
01:23:33,520 --> 01:23:37,120
the fact that they were 
completely ignoring the 

1169
01:23:37,120 --> 01:23:42,400
traditions of Torah. 
And again, it's no less reform. 

1170
01:23:42,920 --> 01:23:44,480
It becomes wearing a straw man, 
a Becker shot. 

1171
01:23:45,040 --> 01:23:48,320
If it goes against MSR, it is to
be categorically rejected, plain

1172
01:23:48,320 --> 01:23:53,640
and simple. 
So first of all, we want to 

1173
01:23:53,640 --> 01:23:57,160
thank you both for making the 
time to do this. 

1174
01:23:57,160 --> 01:24:02,000
I know it's a difficult time and
being in Israel also because of 

1175
01:24:02,000 --> 01:24:04,200
the war and everything. 
So we really appreciate your 

1176
01:24:04,200 --> 01:24:05,720
time. 
We wish we could do this for 

1177
01:24:05,720 --> 01:24:08,840
even longer, but unfortunately 
we'll have to wrap it up now. 

1178
01:24:09,320 --> 01:24:12,200
But hopefully we can continue 
this conversation in the future.

1179
01:24:13,040 --> 01:24:15,080
Thank you so much. 
Really, really thank you. 

1180
01:24:15,560 --> 01:24:18,440
This was amazing. 
You want to. 

1181
01:24:18,720 --> 01:24:23,960
And we, we appreciate both, both
Rabbi Eisen and Rabbi 

1182
01:24:23,960 --> 01:24:30,400
Adlerstein, really, truly like 
we need more, we need more 

1183
01:24:30,400 --> 01:24:36,320
voices like both of yours 
running in the Jewish world 

1184
01:24:37,160 --> 01:24:40,680
because regardless agreement or 
disagreements versus certain 

1185
01:24:40,680 --> 01:24:46,640
things, you both have, you are 
both committed to the traditions

1186
01:24:46,720 --> 01:24:49,520
of Judaism. 
And that is all that we as a 

1187
01:24:49,520 --> 01:24:54,480
podcast want to make sure is 
being projected really that that

1188
01:24:54,480 --> 01:24:58,400
is, that is the whole point. 
And we appreciate both of you 

1189
01:24:58,640 --> 01:25:00,360
and thank you so much for making
time. 

1190
01:25:00,560 --> 01:25:02,880
And Bizarat Hashem will be able 
to continue doing it in the 

1191
01:25:02,880 --> 01:25:04,320
future. 
My pleasure. 

1192
01:25:05,440 --> 01:25:06,880
Thank you to you and Kazakh 
Bahu. 

1193
01:25:07,640 --> 01:25:10,520
Is Sarah Tovat. 
Thank you Shavatov, stay safe.