Thank you for joining the Judaism demystified podcast
again, Professor, see skin. That's an honor to have you on.
You are one of the most requested guests to have on
again, so thank you for making the time.
Well, it's sure to be here and today I want to speak about
messianism and the concept of a messiah so let's face it.
We pray for the coming of a messiah every day and I want to
argue that judaism's two greatest contributions to World
Civilization, our first of All monotheism, but second of all,
this is going to sound funny, but hear me out the idea of a
future Judea Judaism is responsible in many ways for the
concept of a future. Now what do I mean by that?
It isn't that, you know, alright.
Tomorrow is another day and a day after that and the week
after the money, everybody had that what Judaism gave us and
this is so important. Is the notion that the future is
open may contain new and better possibilities?
What Judaism gave us? Is the idea that we are
justified in hoping for a better future than what we have.
So, when you really come down to it, what is belief in a messiah.
It's the belief that no matter how bad things are now, Now this
is not the way they have to be. And in the end it's not the way
they're going to be. So if I can put this in another
way, belief in the Messiah is the belief that the human
situation is not tragic somehow or other again.
As bad as things may seem right now somehow or other, we are
justified in hoping and working for a better future.
Future for something different than what we now have.
And to understand how important this is, we just refer to the
Dante in Dante's Hell, what is written over the passageway to
hell and what's inscribed, as abandon hope.
All ye, who enter Okay. Now what Judaism is telling us
is we shouldn't abandon that. This is an essential part of
what it is to be Jewish in the first place.
We're told, for example, that in the death camps in World War
two, people were led to, to their desk, and many of them
asserted one of my mantras. Duties of principles.
I believe with perfect faith in the coming of the Messiah,
though. He may carry it.
I believe. And I don't think they thought
there was going to be some magical change, you know, all of
a sudden you know, their citric is somebody would come in and
rescue thy that trivializes it. What I do think is that this
idea that this was not the end result Human existence gave them
some measure of dignity as they face their death and belief in
the Messiah. I think has given Jews some
measure of dignity throughout our history.
And let's face it, we we've encountered a lot of tragedy but
but again it's not the end. Now there is no reference to a
Messianic future in the Torah. So let's start there, in fact, A
lot of people don't realize this.
If you think about the end of the Torah, the Torah pretty much
ends on a sour note, Moses has been leading people through the
desert and they been provoking God and disobeying Moses the
whole way. And in the end when God says to
him, you know, behold, you're about to sleep with your
father's. And if you're about to die,
Moses, you can't enter. The promised land and God gives
him a picture and we would hope that picture would be, you know,
people enter the promised land and return to God and celebrate
it. But in fact what God says is
that the new generation is going to be a disaster.
If you know the passage Deuteronomy 31 a God says
they're going to provoke me even more.
I'm going to hide my face from them and every conceivable
disaster. Her is going to befall them,
they're going to turn to idolatry, they're nothing but a
horn. Having the the rhetoric is
terrible that's more or less how the Torah ends.
And that's why it's so important that by the time we get to the
prophets, the great literary prophets.
What they're saying is no this, there's got to be something
more. There's got to be something.
We can't just have this end of this, this terrible.
The deter there's got to be something better than this.
And that's why they give us the idea of what they call the days
of the Lord, which are coming. It's going to set everything,
right? Or if you will, the coming of a
messiah. For those who don't know,
Messiah, just means the one who's anointed Kings and Priests
were Anointed with oil in the ancient, right?
Even to this day, King Charles, The third, if you walk to the
coronation was anointed with oil.
So, the Messiah, maschiach is just means the Holy One,
Jeremiah says, surely the days are coming when the Lord will
raise up for David A righteous Branch, he shall reign as king
Messiah, will be a King deal, wisely shall execute Justice and
righteousness in the And all right.
What is David doing here? Well, God had made a covenant
with David and David's Kingdom in effect was going to go on
forever and so the Messiah is supposed to be a descendant of
David will come from the House of David.
What is the Messiah going to do? What?
We get a variety of suggestions. Most important, the Messiah will
restore. Our sovereignty to Israel.
If we're under the domination of a foreign power, which we were
Babylonia Persia Rome. The Messiah will restore
sovereignty. The Messiah will rebuild the
Temple. by the time we get to rabbinic and Pharisees
literature, Messiah will bring about the resurrection of the
Dead. The Messiah will be preceded by
a cataclysm with the mountains will shake in the rivers will
dry up and there may be a final battle of good against evil, the
battle of Armageddon. And eventually all of this, the
evil will be wiped out. And what will come in is a Of
Earthly Paradise. Well, that's an awful lot looked
at philosophically. The belief that are the hope for
a better future believe in the coming of Messiah gives us a
kind of paradox. It's been said, I think with
justification that the belief in the coming of a messiah is
either Pandora's box or the elixir of life.
Okay. Now which one, what why is this?
So paradoxical, it's the elixir of life again because if we
abandon hope, we've got nothing, we abandon hope we.
All we have is despair. Then we have to say as bad as
things are, they're not going to get better.
And there's no point in working and devoting ourselves to
straightening things out. And that to some extent, It's
sort of the nadir of human existence.
I would say there's no hope whatsoever.
On the other hand, why is that Pandora's box?
And the answer is because, historically, Messianic fervor
has led to a great deal of tragedy.
If you know about you wish history, then you know, there
were two revolts against the Roman Empire, both of them
turned out to be utter disasters in the second revolt.
And there was a guy named Marco seba whose name was changed to
bar kochba. Which means son of the star.
No less than Authority Rabbi Akiba proclaimed.
Him the Messiah. We have revolted against Rome.
Once it didn't go well, and we revolted again, and the Romans
decided this time, they're going to teach us a real lesson, and
more or less pursued, a Scorched, Earth, policy,
Jerusalem, destroyed, thousands of crucifixions of people led
off to slavery. So in the ancient world,
Messianic fervor gave rise to to utterly disasterous revolts and
let's be honest, it gave rise to a rival religion because a good
portion of Judaism thought that Jesus was the The Messiah in
fact, maschiach in Hebrew and translated into Greek is what
just Christos. He was the, he was the Christ.
He was the promised Messiah and I would say that practically
every age that Judaism has been beset by false Messiahs.
In many cases it's LED as I say it's led to death and
destruction and disaster in some cases.
Has its led to her great, big hill of disappointment, Shabba
tights. Of e is converted to Islam in
order to save his life. So the problem is this, when the
chips are down, when things are terrible, is when we are most
susceptible to Folly, And believe me there is a lot of
folly in our history. Unfortunately, on the other hand
it's when the chips are down that we most need hope for a
better future. So that's why it's been called
both pants Forest box and the elixir of life.
Now faced with this history, what did the rabbi's do the
rabbi's early rabbinic literature should let's say they
realize they had been burned badly again to revolts and
arrival religion. And so, I would say that in the
early part of rabbinic literature and the mishnah,
there's a tendency to sort of downplay, the importance of the
Messiah, they can't get rid of it.
They know that and yet it's in the profits.
And again, it's the elixir of Life, they can't just erase it
and the other And they know the price has been paid and it was
terrible. And so there's a tendency now to
kind of do I would say, either ignore it or diminish, its
importance. There's always the question of
what is the Messiah going to be? What is the model we have in
mind for a messiah? Is it going to be a warrior?
In the image of bar, kochba someone establishes Authority
and throws out the domination of a foreign power or is it going
to be a Torah scholar? Well, these don't always go
together. So what exactly are we praying
for here? By the time you get to the
gemara their start speculation comes back to Messianics Babs.
Their Messianic speculation good, right.
But there is no settled Doctrine.
Professor may I ask. So you say in the mission of
there's a tendency to downplay for a few weeks.
You're right. It doesn't seem to me to be of a
central Borden. So I'm making a generalization
the mission of the mishnah is relatively silent about it.
That's right. That's, that would be my plan.
And, and if I'm understanding the direction, you're going to
go, It sounds like every generation has their own unique
relationship to the Messiah. Based on mitigating factors that
they're going to actually physically roll.
Aha. So they so the.
So the so the town has the mishnah since it had a very bad
experience. Fresh bad experience.
The tendency is going to be 2. Don't play.
That's right. That's it.
Thank you for good reason. You have to understand what
these people. It was through the memories
still fresh in their minds. What happened?
By the time you get to later rabbinic, literature the
Spectrum khlyen Sanhedrin. Speculation starts to come by.
All right. When is the prayers for the
Messiah or there? When is the Messiah going to
come a when everything is just so rotten.
I mean, things just reach the absolute pits of what human
beings are capable of. God is going to look down and
they I better do something drastic.
I think I'm going to send the Messiah so that's one Theory.
Another theory is no, it's the Opposite it's when we finally
get our act together, it's when we repent it's when we start
doing Justice to the observation of Shabbat and observing the
Commandments that we will be in effect rewarded.
The Messiah will be in effect. The icing on the cake, God will
look down and say, well now these people really deserve to
enjoy their Messianic future and therefore this is The time to
send the Messiah. There's a theory that says the
Messiah has already come. The Messiah has come and
basically. Now, the only thing that's
really important, or basically, observance of The Commandments
and good deeds, and all of this Messianic speculation and
everything is really to beside the point.
That that's that's Hillel, who says that basically Messiah
came. It's over a Rob says that to,
basically, all the Messiah, Guys have come and gone.
What remains are fulfillment of The Commandments and good.
Deeds. And you can understand why that
might be what, you know, somebody who you looking back
and all of this good say that there is a old tradition
actually, which I kind of like the Messiah is here right now.
The master which is we don't recognize him Messiah is a leper
outside, the gates of Rome bandaging his wounds.
It's just that we're too occupied with other things to
recognize that he's he's here. Well, If you therefore if you
say what is the, what is the rabbinic doctrine?
On the Messiah, there isn't one it's all over the lot.
And of course, again the prayers are there, but exactly what are
we praying for unclear at least if we stick with the rabbinic
literature thus far. And of course, this leads opens
the door to what I do, which is Theology and philosophy because
there's a lot of stuff that has to be clarified.
You just leave this ambiguous as it is or do you try to Introduce
some clarity to this soap. I would say if you look at what
people have attempted to do, To clarify the doctrine.
You have basically five possibilities.
The first I'm calling inflation, okay?
If you are in inflation assess, what you say is, look, here's a
long list of what the Messiah has to do.
Restore sovereignty, rebuild the Temple, raise the Dead, all the
rest of this. And, unless all of this has
happened, or unless there's a final battle of good against
evil and all of the other Pathetic images were just going
to have to wait. So what you do you raise the bar
of what the Messiah has to do is so high and what that does is it
gives you the right to reject false Messiahs.
So did Jesus restore sovereignty?
No, he did not. Did Jesus bring about a final
battle of good against evil? No, he didn't.
You can Jesus, you can reject shaba tights, to be, you can
reject Frank, you can reject all of the false Messiahs in every
age of come along, because they didn't cross the bar because the
bar is so, so difficult to cross and therefore what you say, we
have to wait. And in fact, what you say is
waiting or patience is a virtue, you should pray, and simply the
Messiah will come and God's goodness.
Good time and we just simply have to wait for the professor.
Sorry to interrupt. So you mentioned earlier that
some of the rabbinic attitudes in the talmud involved, you
know, like a cataclysmic event and all that.
So are you trying to say that these sages in the talmud that
presented that idea of Messiah were We engaging in, in, in
inflating, the Messiah, the racing they make, they look,
they have provided a motive station and what they said, they
have prophetic passages to back them up and they can say, for
example, especially as some of them did at the time, bar kochba
was not the Messiah. He was a false Messiah.
Jesus. Paul.
So you've got a long list now. People, Who didn't do all of
this and you can reject them as false Messiahs.
That's the advantage of the inflation of the inflation is
position, though. Let's face it is relying.
Someone heavily on the, miraculous on the things that
are really Beyond, normal human control.
So those sages. So what happened?
And basically try to instill a certain direction of Messiah to
Essentially assure that these things won't happen again.
Yes. Gotcha.
Okay. All right.
The other is deflation the opposite and the greatest
deflation is who ever lived in. Jewish history is Moses
maimonides in the mission of Torah.
He's very clear that don't expect miracles to happen, don't
they? This stuff is Messiah is not
going to be called upon Upon to perform Miracles.
What is the Messianic age going to be?
It's going to be an age. Yes sovereignty will be restored
when Israel is at peace with its neighbors and the great thing
about peace is that we won't have to spend as much time
preparing for war. We won't have to devote so much
of our resources, both time and money to War.
And the great thing about that is we will be able to Throughout
most of what we do to what we are really best suited for which
is study. We're going to study the Torah,
the talmud we're going to study science.
We're going to study mathematics.
We're going to study astronomy and that's what the Messianic
age is all about. Well says maimonides.
Look, they're still going to be rich and poor in the.
It's not going to be an Earthly Paradise as some people imagine.
Imagine they're still going to be rich and poor, they're still
going to be the sick. We're still going to have to
care for the sick. You're still going to have to
help the poor. So all of this stuff is going to
be the same, the Torah will still be valid again.
We're going to do what we are best suited for and that's
perfecting our intellect. So I have to say, whenever I
teach maimonides, I tell my My students.
If you want to see what the Messianic am, you're sitting on
a college campus, if you want to see what maimonides Messianic
age. Looks like when class is over,
just go out and walk her on campus Because if he's right,
the world will become a gigantic Research Institute, there will
be libraries, there will be Laboratories, there will be
seminars, there will be tietjens, there will be books
there that's the my monody and I do but there aren't going to be
any Any miracles? Okay, that's so that's.
That's what I'm calling a deflationary messiah.
You know what's so interesting about about how you describes,
the rambam is vision of mushy athletes, because if you and I'm
sure, you know, the professor knows when you go through the
Ramones writings, there is a clear, his entire his entire
philosophy of life, is essentially that life should be
spent learning and Knowledge of God, knowledge of physics and
metaphysics. And the knowledge is really what
life was for the rambam. That's right.
Looking for really mature, has really just a realization of
everything that he stood for, in a sense.
That's exactly right. I mean, his his account of the
Messiah, his the best account of it comes at the climax of the
mission of Torah the last book of the mission of Dora and this
is sort of, I would say is a thief.
Imagine Attic and rhetorical Climax and now that you've got
all of Jewish law in front of you.
What is it going to lead to? And it's going to lead to eat
the things and hopes an age. When the study of this is not
just what we would call, sacred text, but bread, secular
subjects, math, astronomy, physics, biology, that's what
we're going to do with ourselves instead of preparing for war.
Ironically he also mentions the reason for the destruction of
the second temple. Was that your that we were
involved in stupidity? Like what gave up the study of
the sciences and that's why we lost the Romans.
I don't think that's true but that's what he said.
Well really also we weren't behaving like a normal
sovereignty from would in preparing for war and strategy
and all that. That's right too much
Superstition. Yes too much distraction.
Okay, number three. Marginalization Which to some
extent we've already discussed if you want to marginalize it,
what you say is, look, observe the Commandments, help the poor,
help the sick, help the bereaved, and as far as
messianism goes, it'll come when it comes.
So I was once in a seminar and on messianism and a very noted
Jewish scholar basically said that, but look okay.
We pray for it. But it's still Judaism is and
always has been and always will be a question of performance of
The Commandments and of good. Deeds.
And don't speculate, don't try to force gods.
And this is sort of the machine iock who what we said.
And also some of the rabbi's did this that they don't get rid of
it but they don't make it central to what they're doing
and they see the dangers that have come from a historical
number 4, and what I call internalisation The great Jewish
philosopher. Emmanuel Lebanon has said that
all of these references to cataclysm and shaking of the
earth and disruptive changes. These all should be in effect
understood as what's going on inside of you.
It's you, who, if you understand correctly, you're going to have
a change in become a different person.
You're going to become less selfish.
You're going to be more concerned with others, with
helping others, with giving your life to others.
And this is in effect, a kind of psychological cataclysm that's
going to go. It's not that much.
Mountains will shake and rivers will dry up.
Its how much you will change if you understand correctly?
With Judaism is really about very Hasidic view.
Yes. And it will.
He was heavily influenced by hasidism and at one point, he
says, you know, look the Messiah who I'm the Messiah, never be
careful with this. Each of us in effect has a, we
might say the possibility of achieving a kind of Messianic
Perfection. If we take off again, what what
the religion is asking us to do. It's as if we're, if we we it
isn't that the so much as historical.
Disruption as as a psychological.
And finally, there's the thief. What I call deferral to be
careful here. I'm thinking of Herman Cohen.
Do understand cones view of the Messiah.
I'm going to have to take you back to your high school algebra
class just very briefly, okay? So you remember your high school
algebra class, remember the kid you had graph paper ever, you
had two axes vertical and horizontal axis.
Okay. And remember, sometimes, if you
graph a function, it would slope down and it would approach say
the horizontal axis, but never quite touched, or if you would
touch it, only at Infinity keeps getting closer and closer and
closer. Okay, Cohen, use that to
understand the Messiah that that human beings are at best are on
the pathway to Perfection. But Perfection is an infinite
task and Humanity then and each of us individually is embarked
on an infinite task. We aren't going to achieve it in
the sense that it's going to happen in.
Local time. It is something that we
approaches a limit. We can get closer but in effect,
no cigar. You don't actually we don't
actually touch the axes. Now the advantage of Cohen and
he gets rid of all the false Messiahs, they're all and Cohen
felt that questions like is the Messiah going to enter Jerusalem
for there were certain gate, you know, where's the Messiah going
to stand? What is the Messiah gonna say?
Who is he? All of these questions now are
rejected. Are you familiar with your show?
Yahoo leibovitz's dance. Not entirely, yes.
He know he said in Hebrew, but he said, nimah Amin shy, mushiya
voice-over, Olam, meaning that I believe that PSI will come
forever like for all time. Meaning, we, the moment you say
he's here, or he has an identity then the, you know, that
person's a false Messiah. That's cool too.
Yeah, you could be Cohen's followers, Stephen Schwartz
styled my A great mentor used to said Messiah will always be in
the process of coming, right? Will ever actually arrive will
always be coming? Yes, always be coming.
Now, people objected to that because well, the messiah's
never actually gonna come. Then if it is, the Messiah is
always in the process of coming of the Messiah is never
actually, Going to be here. And what does that do to our
concept of hope? So, you know, each of these
positions has its strengths and weaknesses.
It raises the question though, I think is a deep question can
Arc, human beings capable of getting themselves out of the
moral and spiritual hole All that they've created for
themselves. I mean, just like the new
generation entering the promised land at the end of the Torah.
God Is So pessimistic about it. Are we capable on our own of
getting out of this? The war, the disease, the prime,
the deceit, the corruption or do we need a Divine solution?
Do we need need something from heaven.
We can't do it on our own. Now, you can either say look,
let's be realistic over thousands of years.
If we haven't done it we can't. And we need somehow or other for
God to step in some kind of divine intervention for this to
happen. That's not my view, I think it's
a serious question. It's not the view that I take.
So the view that I take, I have a proof text for it, which I
hope I can read from Deuteronomy 30, an extremely famous passage.
Let me just read the passes. That is very relevant to the
question of a messiah or messianism.
And this is what what? Moses says in God's name
Deuteronomy 30, what I'm commanding you today is not too
difficult for you or beyond your reach.
There is, I think what he said, the, I take this to mean that
the Commandments are fulfilled level.
It may be hard to fulfill them, but the what God has asked of us
is not too difficult for us or beyond our reach.
It is not up in heaven that you The ask who will Ascend into
heaven and get it and Proclaim it.
So we may obey it, it's not beyond the sea that you will
have to ask who will cross the sea to get it and Proclaim it to
us so that we will obey. It know the word, the words of
the Torah is very near Q. It is in your mouth and in your
heart So that you may do. So I take this to me and I take
this to the central position of Judaism, not everyone agrees
with this, but I put it to you that.
Reaching satisfying, what God has given us and obtaining
Redemption of closing, the gap of doing what we said we were
going to do it. Sign on it's not infinitely far
up that that was the Cohen V when I don't know, it's not
something that we approach asymptotic.
It can be done, we haven't done it, but we may not even be going
in the right direction. I don't know what it can be
done. And the coming of a Messianic
age is something that we are capable of bringing about.
I think if we put our hearts to it.
So if you say what is my position, it's a modified
deflation as a maimana daeun, I accept a great deal of the
deflation maimonides believed in the bill that rebuilding of the
temple. I'm not sure.
I do that. We create a lot of other
problems and my favorite rabbinic precedent for this.
This is my favorite position on the Messiah is, is this one Sage
says The Messiah will come. When all of Israel celebrate.
Shabbat two weeks running. All right, what do I like that
so much? Well, one week, I mean.
Okay. You know, you might luck out.
And so they know the reason I like it is because celebrating
Shabbat two weeks running is, it seems exactly right, we can do
it. Yeah, you worked.
It isn't asking for something that is so far beyond.
Reach that we have to, you know, need divine intervention to help
us. We can we can all celebrate.
Shabbat two weeks, run. It's not that hard to do.
Let's face it. It's a day of rest.
It's within our possibilities. Within human ability to
celebrate Shabbat two weeks running.
It just isn't that difficult? Now, the other side of the coin,
don't bet your mark. Kajal on it.
There is a realism. Don't don't bet your mortgage on
it. In the one sense, the coming of
the Messiah. Ever more than two weeks off.
Is it going to happen by the end of June?
I don't think so, but it could now it's not that, I believe
that if we all celebrate your brought, somebody once asked me,
what do you say, we all get together and celebrate, Shabbat
what's going to? It's not that Mountains will
shake. It's not that I'm not looking
for miracle. All I'm saying is that this is
teaching us a lesson and that lesson is, as I think
Deuteronomy 30 is telling us That Perfection is achievable.
It can be done. If we don't, it's our fault not
Gods, you know, Professor. I read that part of the book.
When you mention this, that is actually my favorite part in the
whole book because what hit me or what struck me with what you
said in the book and just reiterated right now that I got
da right of, you know, if Keeping Shabbat shakes going to
come though. Abused has been.
So misunderstood has been so sensationalized like as like,
you know as if the idea here is that by the time that it's the
by keeping to shabbat, like magically now, or whatever
Shabbat is, is going to like, you know, I don't know Creak
Creak this energy and bring some magical Messiah down.
People have so many strange things to say about that.
I got that but what you said was So perfect and it like I truly
believe that that was the intent.
Personally. Speaking that what you're trying
to say is what they're telling us is hey, it's reachable, it's
doable, go and do it absolutely. It's amazing to me that in all
my life and I've read so many commentaries on that, I got Don.
I've heard it being used in so many speeches and lectures and
you know what you said it. I was like you know sometimes
the the best answer is the simplest one really So I just
wanted to make, let's try it. I mean what the heck, our
community actually, you know, there's a lot of communities
that do the Shabbat project, right?
So I might do it two weeks and it's not going to hurt you.
You made in gu, you may even enjoy it.
That means it may lead to something better.
Let's try it. And we'll see exactly what Opens
I don't see anything wrong with the attempt and her cat hurt.
Exactly. Right.
So so the maimonides and view although it is definitely
something that is it's realistic.
It's a good thing at the same time.
It also makes us more susceptible to fall in a way to
the false messy. That's exactly right.
If you lower the bar, If you keep lowering the bar and say we
don't need Miracles and so on and so forth, then you don't
really have the wherewithal to eliminate false Messiahs because
a false Messiah can simply say, all right, I didn't do this
miracle or that Miracle, but according to maimonides, I don't
have to. Now, maimonides did, is sort of
get into an issue with the building of the second temple.
Why? Because the Torah he thought is
valid for all times. It says that about himself, and
we don't do animal sacrifice because we don't have a place to
do it in anymore. And the temple was destroyed by
the Romans in 70 AD. We gave up animal sacrifice, and
replaced it with prayer, study of the Torah and Good Deeds.
Well, if you rebuild the Temple, And maimonides admits this.
You may not like it, but we would have to go back to
sacrifice the animals. Is somebody who is extremely
squeamish and pens to faint at the sight of blood.
I have to, I don't want to see this, but he does say again this
may be distasteful to you, but in his principal, he stuck to
his principles and if the doctor, if there is a third
Temple, There would be no principled reason not to
sacrifice animals. I again, I don't want to see
this and that part of his position, I just assumed drop.
Professor may. I may I try to help you out with
this one. I would love it.
If you did, you'd be doing me an enormous favor.
Okay, I got him. I'm not saying what I'm saying
is true, but it's just an idea that I Yes, it's okay to float
out the the problem with the temple.
Everyone has something to say about this with cook even came
and said that, you know, it'll be replaced with vegetation
instead of animal sacrifice. And some people say like, oh
that's not gonna happen anymore. And some people insistent that
it needs to happen and Central for it to happen, there's always
going to be arguments about this, but from a philosophical
perspective, right? Which is up your alley?
A benefit of having the temple from and I'm taking this from a
bunch of things that I've read and learned and throughout the
podcast that we've done. You know.
I've learned a lot if we agree that idolatry is Alive.
And Well, if we agree that there's a lot of misplaced, you
know, people are praying at, you know, Graves people are using,
you know, Weird incantations and probably a lot of things that
have substituted that the temple, right, that people,
because they're drawn to that need of, of worship in a way
that's concrete. Right?
Which was the reason in the first place for the sacrifices.
So, it's been replaced by a lot of strange things.
If we did establish a temple, and if we did If we establish
the temple, it would by default eliminate all of these problems
because now you have a centralized place of worship and
you can't have an excuse to go do all these strange other
worships anymore. So from a philosophical point of
view, it would actually improve mankind.
Yeah, I mean, that was the point in large part of the book of
Deuteronomy was, right, relies worse.
At the temple in Jerusalem, write his own sacrifices that
you can't, you can't no more freelance sacrificing.
Well, I'm just exchanging that with the freelancing that goes
on today. In more modernized ways we're
not out of the woods, just because it's not with us with
animal sacrifice per se. Basically couple people today,
will argue that were beyond that already.
We don't need, we don't have those Basic Instincts anymore or
the Tendencies towards Those things, but the truth of the
matter is we've only just now idolatry has become a Dolce of
the mind so it's still relevant. It's still something that we
have like mentioned been see, mentioned the great worship
copper, all these things people are they need that outlet still
we haven't really people. Human beings don't really change
by Nature. That's exactly the purpose of
standardizing. The prayer book so you don't
have people saying whatever comes into their head, But we
don't so you don't you don't project, we won't project our
own language said that if you want to speak to God, there are
ways to do it there times to do it, their contexts in which you
can do it and it's more or less regulated.
But look, if you believe is, he does the Toros valid for all
time then you can't avoid the the issue of sacrifice.
You get, you have to do, you have to go back so that I
suppose you wouldn't give up the prayers but you would still have
a temple called That was doing the sakharine.
Still have a scapegoat on Yom Kippur etcetera.
Etc. Now the further question about a
third Temple and here I'm I don't want to offend people but
I can't I have to be honest with you.
A temple is still a structure built with bricks and mortar and
stone and even if it's the temple in Jerusalem, it to me,
it's not a substitute for what goes on in our own minds.
And in our hearts it's still a physical thing is though.
It can Inspire worship, it can Inspire an attitude of
gratitude. Rooms.
Perhaps an attitude of repentance all of that's fine,
but it's still a physical thing. And this is a religion.
Ultimately, its focus on something that's not physical
and can't be understood or even image in terms of brick stone
wood mortar. So I there is a part of me that
is against making things to concrete.
This is the, my monody and if you don't want to go, Too.
Too much in the direction of concrete.
But what's available to end to the set, what we can see touch
here and cement, we have that, you know, we have dollar, you
know, we have what you can smell, what you can see what you
can hear and synagogue, right. But these things are there, but
they're under control. It's not ultimately, this is not
a Based on the physical senses. So I think to add to that, you
know today, what people turn the Western Wall into is kind of
like in a way some people treat it like an idol and it with the
writing notes in this body in a way.
I think we're a lot of people it, that's exactly.
What are your prayers are going to be more powerful if you're
standing there. You know, that's not even the
temple. This is not Judaism as I
understand it or would like to see it.
And in fact, you know there, Is a sign out in front of it.
That says. And I think a lot of people come
to believe that God somehow dwells within these Stones.
Well, no, I'm afraid not God doesn't dwell in anything that's
physical. That's the wrong way of
understanding Judaism, right? It's a place that we sanctify
for God's place, right? It's a place that has historical
significance. If Sport, you're arguing clock.
It's a place that we can come together to understand and
remember our past, but the temple, the temple itself, which
is obviously different than the kotel.
I think that, you know, the issue, the, the problem that it
would solve is, or should solve because, again, it didn't even
solve it back, then, a lot of the times, but it should solve
the issue of the leadership, or the kohanim, you know, should be
able All to keep people in line for the most part.
That's the idea it's not just people going to a building and
worshipping the stones in the building.
They're at you're going to hit record of what else.
I think you can be as close to God, if you are standing at the
kotel. Or if you are standing in Times
Square or on State Street in Chicago, or Hollywood and Vine.
And but our anywhere else on this planet, it's a question of
what's going on in your mind and in your heart.
It's not a question of where you are physically, right?
Can't be. Yeah. 100%, that's a fact.
And, and your that's the truth. The question is, I am looking at
it from two angles, actually one and I'm actually I remember in
your book, no, other gods sort of touch upon this, how The
Human Condition where it's almost impossible for us to be
complete Angels, Enterprise Angels, I'm saying that you
know, right, lean, right. They're going to be always in
Aspect of human nature even at our best.
Maybe there's that, there's going to be an aspect of human
nature. That is going to Need that
right? Even though we shouldn't right
under like you know we should all it should be the way you're
saying it ought to be the way. I am very hard for me to have a
spiritual experience on in Time Square and that is that it's
much easier in a house of worship, which is there is
beauty, there's art and architecture the presence of the
Dora the ability to provide our or take my Tha leave and kiss
the Thorin. So yeah, all of this is is
important to induce reverence hoodie all the things that this
religion says that it stands for.
But In the end. It's not a physical thing.
Yes, you mentioned in your in your book.
North of guys now that Ben's he reminded me.
I believe you said something to the effect of fighting idolatry
you. It's almost like you have to you
take one step forward and then two steps backwards and yeah
writing adultery because like you have to some we have to do
rituals but then these rituals could become in a way like Like
adulteress. So we have to walk are used to
say, you know, when I was on the board of directors in the
synagogue for the Torah service, have we paid more attention to
the bringing the Torah out of the arc and the arc Optics
prating it around and kissing it and vowing to it and putting it
back pack and Alder, have we paid more attention to that.
Then we have to the message that the this week's Torah portion is
supposed to be teaching us and if we have paid more attention
to the silver crowns and the the robe, the way it's dressed in
the jewels and the. So if we've done that, we we've
missed it, it again. I don't want that.
I want to get rid of the Torah service.
Don't misunderstand, me, absolutely, of course.
It's important, let's keep it. But let's ask ourselves what the
end of this is supposed to be supposed to be and your dreams
of learning of study irreverence over again of repentance in your
book and your book thinking of the editora, I believe that's
the book you were mentioning your think it was in the
introduction. You mentioned that the Torah is
a book of philosophy foremost, because it points to a any
record, philosophy has to point to an ideal, right?
And it has to point to kind of a an age that you know, Idealistic
age. So I think you really captured
that in what you presented tonight.
I hope I want to add one thing two things actually one I was
thinking about it right now, so you're you're correct, right
that the temple should not be an end of itself.
And then itself, which is essentially what Professor.
I think you're trying to say, is that a temple is not an end
within itself. Right.
And everything has to lead to the ultimate goal, but now I'm
actually thinking about it and what you said actually earlier
in the podcast, that for the rambam, the temple in isolation
is not what the Messianic age is.
You mentioned that for the rambam.
The Messianic age is a time of learning of studies of of, of
men devoting their time towards using their their capacities.
Towards knowledge of God if that is going on, simultaneous with
the temple, then actually the risk of the temple is by
default. Neutralized agree, if that's
going on our bird. Keep in mind though that for the
rambam, the temple is an instant of mods.
It's make God is making a concession to human fallibility.
Okay. So, for example, the in the
Torah, the mishkan, you know, raise the question of, why does
a monotheistic God need all this gold?
All this jewelry silver. Fine linen.
Sealskin, you know why does it? Why does a monotheistic God?
Need all of these accouterments to channel our energies to be I
mean, you know, Moses, but let's be clear on.
Moses didn't need that when he was alone with God, on the
mountain didn't need a house of worship, didn't need gold and
jewels and fine linen or anything of the sort.
The the guy who's going to put on the, the jewelry and the
Rings and the turbine, and there is Aaron not Moses.
Okay, so you have even in the Torah, this idea of pure
worship, which not every human being and achieved and God in
the sense, making a concession, okay?
You knew in Egypt. The gods were worshipped in
these luxurious places. Therefore, if we want to worship
me, I'm going to give you the blueprint for a luxurious place
as well. Similarly, with Solomon's.
But these are these are concessions to human fallible,
right? After the golden calf, they
build the mishkan. And that's a way of got that
goes with maimonides thinking. That God gave like kind of
channeled. Our energies towards he
understood. You can't eliminate this need.
Let's transfer it towards you know, something positive.
Exactly under the golden calf is by definition is made of gold.
But look, when we get to the description of the mishkan, look
at how much growth been estimated that to build this
thing would require two thousand pounds of refined gold.
So, Old plays, a central role in Boca in the one case we have the
ultimate form of idolatry which angers God, and in the other
case, what we have is the place in which God wants to be
worshiped. So you got to be careful here,
it's can't be turned into a golden calf.
It can't end yet. There is the possibility of
doing that. If I think this these passages
of the book of Exodus, make clear, I think I think some of
the problems that persist today is that people are always trying
to kind of crown the next Messiah.
We see that with habad, we see that with there's some people
who are starting this guy in Israel.
The Anouk has heard of him professor system, I don't know.
But I will tell you, I was on television in Chicago Ones They
asked me whether the rebbe the other schneerson was the
Messiah. And I said, look, he's a great
Rabbi and he's a learned man and you know, there's much to learn
from but the Messiah know. Ryan, all of his followers were
happy with that. Yeah.
And you know, I think, I think one of the things that people do
today also which is I see it often whenever there's a tragedy
that hits, you know, Community. A lot of people will cry out for
the Messiah but they'll conflate the Messianic age with
resurrection and Olam Haba. It's like one big mishkabobala,
love ideas that that they'll just be And the days of the
Messiah, again he thought the Torah is still valid.
Her is valid for all. In fact, the whole point of the
Messianic age is now we can observe the Torah fully who
without interference, right? In all of them.
How bought the Torah Is no longer valid.
I mean, there's no eating, there's no drinking, there's no
sexual contact in Olam Haba. So the Torah is not a valid lien
literally low Basham. I'm he you know, assure my a
professor before we go I wanted to just mention That the whole
second half of this convo. I know that a lot of people
listening something like you said, you didn't want to offend
people, and I know that like, you know, some people are going
to be listening and they'd be like, oh, shouldn't need a
temple. We do need the temple.
And, you know, I always I I want to go back to statement from
Rabbi Jonathan sacks, which I think is really important
because there is a tendency that we have to sometimes suppress
our Inner sensibilities. We every single person has an
inner sensibility, right? Your inner sensibilities, you
you don't see why they would be a need for a temple.
It's an inner sensibility that you have that that's developed
within you, right? We all have that in different
Realms and different aspects of Torah and okay, so I think that
a lot of people are so focused in suppressing, the inner
sensibilities, Rabbi Jonathan sacks said something, Is my mind
brilliant because he's actually letting you know that you don't
have to suppress your sensibilities.
And and that's not a problem because what he says is Faith is
living without faith is living with them.
Which means that that that the our inner sensibilities,
sometimes are going to doubt certain things which our very
faith is gravitating us to understand to believe and
understand. And and that contradiction is
not a problem. That is what faith is the faith.
That, you know, I have a certain as he says the courage to live
with uncertainty actually. Sorry, I apologize the courage
to live with uncertainty. I call it.
I didn't get that hard absolutely with you on this
unfortunately, for some people Jews included Faith, becomes a
question of dogmatism of close-mindedness of an event of
intolerance. Now, that's really not what it's
supposed. I don't always like the word
base. You know, let's go back to
maimonides. Again, it's Masterpiece is
called the guide for the perplexed.
But what a lot of people don't understand is that he a says,
quite clearly. He cannot resolve every
perplexity. He can't.
Nobody can't no human being Europe.
Every perplexity and in fact, there are several pages of
places in that book where he himself, says I'm perplexed.
I don't believe I've worked myself into a problem and I
tried to show you what can be said on both sides and here's
the evidence. And so, out of the group text,
but to resolve this whole thing he can't.
So I think what he's trying to say here is pretty much what you
you said. We're not going to resolve
everything. We don't have to, and we
couldn't even if we wanted to, there is room for da, he had
doubts, your Bertrand. Russell Bertrand Russell has a
great quote that the whole, the whole problem with the world is
that fools and Fanatics are always.
So certain of themselves and wiser people or so full of
doubts. That's right.
Why? According to maimonides is Moses
the wisest person who ever lived and at one point says because
Moses more than any other human being recognized the limits of
human and saw that there were limits to what we could do.
And of course, there's also he refers to divide thing a little
more time. Famous rabbinic parable.
For rabbis who enter our days. I don't know how you would the
Garden or the orchard. Yeah, Orchard Orchard, Garden
Orchard, whatever. What happens?
One goes insane. One commits suicide.
One becomes an apostate. Only Akiba goes in and out and
holds himself together. Why does the rambam?
Why is that? Because only Akiba recognize the
limits of what he had and stayed with?
He didn't look Moses Moses, famously turns away from the
burning bush. The Elders of Israel and Moses
with his usual. Humility, look the other way.
Absolutely. Yeah, nothing wrong with doubt.
There's nothing wrong with humility.
There's nothing wrong with, recognizing that there are
questions that we can't fully get an answer to on the
contrary. There's everything right with
them the way I see it. Yeah it's amazing professor
before we go. Can you maybe blog committing to
plug you want to tell anybody about any books coming out or
that are out right now? Well, the latest one was the
thinking about the prophets. I am a supposed to attend a
conference in Germany in October.
Where I'm going to present, a make a presentation on the
Jewish conception of happiness, that was the idol, and I'm going
to say in the first trigger, maybe this should be the Jewish
conception of unhappiness. And I prepared a long essay on
this. I will be published probably
somewhere in Europe but that my next project is the questions.
Also a good question. What does it really mean to be?
Happy taking Judaism, seriously. What what what is involvement
has his limits? The act of of is this, our
ultimate goal is to be happy or is our ultimate goal, something
else. How do we define happiness of?
Can I be happy without you being happy, all kinds of questions.
That that sounds amazing. Please keep writing Professor,
please, please keep writing because no, because because
Professor you have a certain style of writing, it's very
unique and that you can take difficult abstract Concepts and
explain it in a way that everybody can understand.
And that is missing. So keep writing and we always
appreciate you. We hope to have you on.
Of All Times God. Willing and may we live to
eventually figure out what exactly is going to happen with
that Temple usual. It's my pleasure.
This is thank you so much. That's the sort of thing I love
to do. Thank you.
Hey guys. Thanks so much for tuning in to
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