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Welcome to Judaism Demystified, 
a podcast for the perplexed. 

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Join us as we explore some of 
the most fascinating Jewish and 

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Torah related topics with our 
esteemed guests. 

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By tackling some of the biggest 
questions you likely won't find 

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addressed elsewhere, we aim to 
shed light on important issues 

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and inspire a return to the 
fundamentals. 

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Enjoy the show. 
Thank you, Hannah for joining 

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the Judaism Demystified podcast.
We are so excited for this. 

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First of all, before we begin, I
want to give a special thank you

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and shout out to Johnny Rea Boy.
A mutual friend of ours who gave

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me a quick text message a few 
days ago says we got to get this

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podcast going. 
And I, I once I read about your 

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book, I was sold and I'm very 
excited to get into discussion. 

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But before we do, can you just 
tell our audience a little bit 

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about yourself and your 
background? 

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Sure. 
Yeah, I'm Hannah Cohen. 

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I'm from Chicago. 
The great, the great old 

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Midwest. 
I've been working for the OU for

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a bunch of years. 
And again, a lot of that kind of

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influenced the writing of this 
book, which maybe we'll get into

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a little bit, maybe we won't. 
We'll see. 

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I worked for JLIC on on campus 
at Queen's College when I lived 

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in Jersey for a few years. 
Then I worked for their research

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department and did like a 
massive large scale study on the

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shuttle crisis, which is always 
a great conversation starter for

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any Shabbos meal. 
You could pretend you worked for

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the Center for Communal Research
if you're low on Shabbos table 

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topics for the shuttle crisis. 
It's it's great. 

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And now I actually work for JLIC
again. 

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I work for their young 
professional leadership division

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called Yavna Young 
Professionals. 

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So that's kind of like my, my 
work experience. 

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And this is my first experience 
really writing, researching and 

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writing. 
Recently I've gotten a lot into 

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history and just the moral, the 
moral lessons that are embedded 

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in the history of the Jewish 
people. 

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I've I've become very interested
in that and that's how I got to 

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writing this book in one way or 
another. 

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OK, so just to get right into 
it, we want to know what 

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inspired you to write a 
historical fiction novel set 

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during the time of The Maccabees
and how does it connect to the 

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idea of reviving heroes in 
Jewish culture? 

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Yeah, OK, so thanks for for the 
perfect question set up. 

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So again, a a piece of what 
inspired me. 

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I feel like I've, I've, I've 
said this in a lot of kind of 

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different ways, but really what 
inspired me was I have my, my 

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oldest is an 11 year old boy and
as he grows older, I have a 7 

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year old girl and a four year 
old boy and a baby now also. 

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And just seeing kind of the, the
media that's available for them 

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in Jewish culture, especially 
Jewish media started like 

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grating on me more and more as 
time went on. 

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And just feeling like, again, 
especially with the study of 

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history that I was doing on the 
side that there are so many 

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great stories available about 
Jews for Jews, about Jewish 

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history that are literally epic.
They're epic stories of Jewish 

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heroes. 
And in a certain way, we don't 

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have access to that. 
Our children don't have access 

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to that where they do have 
access to things like Batman and

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Superman. 
Like, OK, I remember one time I 

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was at a friend's house on shop 
this afternoon, sitting outside 

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and I saw her, her five year old
son was playing with a bunch of 

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five year old boys outside, 
whatever, and a few girls 

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outside. 
And he was at the top of the 

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slide. 
And he said to the friends at 

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the bottom, he's like, guys, I'm
going to be Batman. 

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And you guys, you're all the bad
guys. 

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And like quickly all the little 
kids like fell in line with 

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this. 
And I was sitting there like 

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literally horrified where I was 
like, again, I like Batman. 

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I think Batman's actually really
good. 

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I think the stories of heroes 
and superheroes are really 

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important for developing minds, 
developing young minds in any 

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capacity. 
My mind too, right? 

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Like, they're just, they're good
for the soul. 

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And I was just like, the kid's 
name was Yehuda. 

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And I was like, in why didn't he
say to them, guys, I'm Yehuda 

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Hamakabi, you're the Greeks, 
right? 

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Like that's what I want. 
Like I want us to have an 

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understanding of our own heroes 
in a way that like, again, 

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Batman and Superman are great 
and I'm not anti them in any 

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capacity, but like, we should 
have access to our own heroes 

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too. 
And in a certain way we don't. 

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And I think it's because in a 
certain way, sometimes we feel 

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like we have sort of this moral,
like morally we can't touch 

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them. 
Morally, they're beyond our Ken.

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Like there's right, Like there's
all this like hush scuffic. 

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Am I allowed to say that kind of
thing? 

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I'm over here, right? 
I can, I could be honest, like, 

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right. 
There's like a hush scuffic. 

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Right for honesty in this 
podcast we struck for. 

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Honesty, I thought so I just 
like felt like I should check 

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before I continue this rant a 
little bit right? 

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But like there's a certain 
Hushkuffic like philosophy that 

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we shouldn't speak about heroes.
And I think it's a little weird 

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because I think that there's no 
parallel of like a Hushkuffic 

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feeling like we should talk 
about heroes and that any 

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developing human needs heroes. 
So that's like kind of how I got

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started here where I'm like, I 
want my kids growing up to stay 

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to each other. 
Guys, I'm Yehuda Homakovi, 

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you're the Greeks. 
Let's let's play this game, 

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right? 
Like there's always going to be 

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good and evil. 
Let's give our own kids, our own

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heroes that exist that we are 
scared of and let's stop being 

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scared of them and let's know 
their stories. 

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Should I keep going or or like? 
I wanted, I wanted to just 

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clarify something. 
So when you say that we don't 

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have access to our heroes, So 
what you I want to clarify as to

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what you mean by this. 
So you don't mean in terms 

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meaning we do have almost what? 
Role models. 

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Role models, but in in the form 
of almost like we do have 

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superhero status. 
OK. 

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And then what you're trying to 
say is, is that because they 

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have this superhero status, we 
can't really talk about it and 

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talk about them in any real 
meaningful way that's relatable 

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to us simple people in a way. 
Is that what you mean? 

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Yeah, Bensi, I actually love 
that you just clarify that, 

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right, Because I think in a lot 
of ways we do have these larger 

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than life figures in Judaism and
the Jewish culture. 

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Every Bible hero, so to speak, 
is like that, right? 

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Like we don't touch them with a 
10 foot pole. 

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I'm not saying we should. 
If you notice, I didn't write 

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about the first temple period. 
I wrote about the second temple 

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period, right. 
Like, I'm also scared of like 

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going there because they were 
real and like, far be it for me 

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to to put some some narrative of
their life, you know, down on 

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paper. 
But on the other hand, like, 

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there's something a hero isn't 
someone who is larger than life.

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Like, I actually don't like the 
term superhero. 

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I think in a certain way, 
exactly like you said, we have 

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superheroes. 
We have like, you know, 

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biographies and graphic novels 
and some podcasts like stories 

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for kids in which the elder 
rabbinic figure is beyond 

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question, beyond fallibility. 
Never makes a mistake, doesn't 

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have Sahara, right? 
And if they make a mistake or 

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they have a Sahara, it's 
blacklisted. 

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And like, now we're in CRM and 
we have like a massive communal 

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controversy around it. 
And that's not heroes. 

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It doesn't, it doesn't compel, 
it doesn't compel the developing

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soul of every human that like 
there's some reflection that you

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see in yourself and in the story
in front of you. 

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And in the same way that you 
feel like the character in the 

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story is struggling with their 
own Dragons, is struggling with 

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their own demons, is falling, is
coming out with something new 

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inside of them. 
And then they could offer the 

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world that struggle and that 
fall and that coming out with 

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something new. 
That's the process that really 

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is reflected and should be 
reflected in the soul of every 

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person reading or hearing or 
listening to A to a great story.

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But to do that, the characters 
in the story have to not be 

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perfect. 
And they have to do things that 

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are mistakes and they have to 
struggle and they have to have a

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hard time and they have to do 
something that makes you 

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frustrated with them every once 
in a while. 

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And we don't have those stories.
We don't. 

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We don't tell them. 
I would cautiously argue that 

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the Bible, that the Torah itself
actually really follows this 

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line. 
Have you by any chance ever read

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Svigrumit's book on Genesis from
Magi Publishing? 

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His the entire book is really 
trying to show that Avram 

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Yitzhak Yaakov and the Imahot 
and and and and the Shwatim and 

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Yosef. 
They were there's a constant 

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struggle to achieve that 
covenant with with with God. 

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And it's, it's, he goes through 
all the ups and downs and very 

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close reading to the text as I'm
reading it, as I, as I have been

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reading it, I've never felt the 
Torah impact me more than when 

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I've read his book. 
And I think that we, we almost 

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create a barrier, you know what 
I mean, in that everything. 

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And like you said, when it comes
to the Torah, it gets a little 

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bit more complicated, of course,
right? 

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It's harder to touch that, of 
course, right. 

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But it's not only just that it's
like you said, it's, it's, it's 

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a, it's our, it's our, you know,
Rabbis Dolan. 

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And we have, you know, figures 
of the, the medieval times that 

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we're, we're not allowed to kind
of peek into their actual human 

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struggles in life because we 
have to put him on a certain 

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pedestal and it becomes distance
instead of, instead of actually 

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getting something from their 
lives. 

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So I I I really I actually. 
Think just just to build on 

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that, I think that there it's 
very explicit in in Tanakh with 

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DaVita Melek that he says 
himself Khatati, right? 

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He says I sinned. 
But we obviously have a 

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reverence and Tamil tries to 
make us see things in a 

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different point of from a 
different point of view. 

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And that's all very, you know, 
fine and dandy, but the, the 

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truth is the approach we have 
this reverence that we have 

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sometimes creates a distance to 
the point of like not being able

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to relate similar to Lahavdeal, 
but similar to like, like 

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Christian Saints where, you 
know, they're, they're almost 

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like angels. 
You can't really, you can't 

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relate to someone who never 
sinned, who never really sinned.

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Yeah. 
And it. 

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Doesn't have to be that way 
though. 

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The reverence doesn't go away 
from from acknowledging her 

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version of what she's saying as 
a hero. 

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It's not. 
It doesn't. 

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It shouldn't lead to any type of
lack of reverence. 

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If anything, it gives a more 
meaningful reference. 

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We just had a similar discussion
2 episodes ago, I believe, with 

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Rabbi Gill's students on this 
exact topic. 

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It's about reverence, so if 
anybody wants to go back and 

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listen to that. 
But just to continue about the 

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point you were making, was there
anything else you wanted to say 

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on this topic? 
Yeah, just I, I totally, I 

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totally hear what both of you 
are saying. 

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And again, I definitely have 
inside of me this like push, 

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pull with like how far back it 
could go, right. 

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Like I am I, I am scared to 
touch, so to speak, the Bible 

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heroes, even though I think 
exactly what you're saying, this

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isn't a modern approach. 
You see that the Torah is 

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written in a way that assumes 
that everybody who's there, 

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who's a model of Judaism for the
ages is also fallible fights, 

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makes mistakes. 
We have long arguments for 

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thousands of years about exactly
the kinds of mistakes that they 

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make. 
But the fact that they made 

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mistakes is really on the table 
for everybody. 

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Like that's for sure. 
That being said, again, like to 

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answer your original first 
question, like that's why I went

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into the second Temple period. 
I think that the story of the 

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Hanukkah story is the really the
first proliferated story that is

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a like a super clear story of 
good versus evil, right? 

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The Greeks were not allowing us 
to serve God and to, you know, 

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to show up in the land of Israel
with the people of Israel in the

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way that the people of Israel 
should show up. 

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And we fought back with the 
tiniest resistance against a 

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large. 
We're like, it's a classic 

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versus evil story. 
And even that we light the 

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Hanukkah candles and we're like,
thank you, God for the miracles 

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of the wars. 
And we're like, what wars did 

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they fight? 
What miracles? 

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Who were they like? 
Nobody even knows, right. 

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So again, like, that's why I 
took that second temple period. 

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And again, especially on a 
Jewish holiday that comes up 

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every year saying like here at 
least is a place where we we 

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have to touch it delicately. 
And I was like, I tried to be 

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very delicate and especially you
go to homocrity's character. 

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But here's something that we 
should know more about. 

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We should be able to relate to 
it as a classic hero story 

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that's meant to speak to humans,
just like every hero story is 

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meant to speak to humans. 
And like, let's learn something 

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from it. 
Like, let's, let's really get to

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the bottom of what this story is
trying to tell us about 

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ourselves. 
Yeah. 

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And I think because we don't 
have a safer, we don't have a 

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book or Megillah on, on 
Hanukkah, this is a great 

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opportunity for, you know, 
you're, I think most people 

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don't know the history 
surrounding Hanukkah, what was 

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happening at the time. 
So like, I think your book is 

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really just coming out of such a
great time. 

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It's a great opportunity. 
I think you you touched on 

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something that was very much 
needed. 

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So we're very excited to get 
more into this. 

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One other point before we move 
on, I am actually borrowing this

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from something you said in a 
different podcast, but I wanted 

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to just bring it up here because
I think it was so important. 

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Is that a lot of times when, 
when we read these narratives in

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Torah and, and, and you know, 
the book of Maccabees, the book 

257
00:12:53,120 --> 00:12:58,040
of the McGill anything, we come 
from a after the fact standpoint

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where we don't, we don't seem to
realize that the, that the that 

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the people that were involved in
the story, right, They don't 

260
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know how it's going to end. 
And you can argue this also by 

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the way, for the, for the tour 
as well. 

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Like, you know, Yaakov was 
scared of ace of and he says 

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Katante Mikola Hassadi Mcbini. 
We, we tend to think like in, in

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this, like a after the fact and 
like, you know, that and that 

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they kind of, we, we shaped them
as if they've, they've also 

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already always known, like we 
know thousands of years later. 

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And I think that you mentioned 
in, in a different podcast how 

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you wanted to make sure that you
captured the feelings and the 

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worries and the, and the, and 
the, and the concerns that that 

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00:13:42,360 --> 00:13:45,640
your, your, your, your 
characters in your book are 

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feeling as the Hanukkah story is
moving along. 

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00:13:48,680 --> 00:13:51,520
I I thought that was amazing. 
Yeah, I actually love that 

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00:13:51,520 --> 00:13:55,280
point, which is as soon as you 
write a book about the Hashmana,

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even about the Hanukkah time 
period, the number one sort of 

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like Ground Zero question where 
it's going to start. 

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Is that like, did Matisyahu and 
the Makabeim or the Hashmanai 

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00:14:04,200 --> 00:14:07,800
brothers start fighting thinking
they were going to win, or did 

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00:14:07,800 --> 00:14:09,800
they start fighting thinking 
they were going to lose? 

279
00:14:10,200 --> 00:14:12,040
Right. 
And your whole philosophy of 

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what it would have felt like to 
show up and actually fight 

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00:14:15,080 --> 00:14:17,440
alongside them at the time is 
going to come down to one of 

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those questions. 
And again, before I started 

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writing, I spent a long time, 
like reading kind of different 

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sources that went in One 
Direction or another. 

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00:14:23,880 --> 00:14:25,840
And I feel like it's a question 
we all have to ask ourselves. 

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00:14:26,000 --> 00:14:28,640
But I love what you're saying. 
Ben C Like very, very little 

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00:14:28,640 --> 00:14:31,880
time do we ever spend lighting 
the candles and being like, did 

288
00:14:31,880 --> 00:14:33,200
Matisyu really think he was 
gonna win? 

289
00:14:33,200 --> 00:14:35,720
Like it's almost impossible to 
think that he thought he was 

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00:14:35,720 --> 00:14:37,720
gonna win. 
On the other hand, like he had a

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00:14:37,720 --> 00:14:40,560
muna that was like, you know, 
head and shoulders above me. 

292
00:14:40,560 --> 00:14:42,960
So like maybe he started knowing
that it was the right thing. 

293
00:14:42,960 --> 00:14:45,680
And but like, I didn't really 
think so again, like I debated 

294
00:14:45,680 --> 00:14:48,280
back and forth and I came out on
the side of like, I'm, I'm 

295
00:14:48,280 --> 00:14:50,440
pretty sure they did this 
thinking that it was like 

296
00:14:50,880 --> 00:14:53,640
communal suicide, but had to be 
done because again, like that's 

297
00:14:53,640 --> 00:14:55,800
the Jewish tradition. 
You stand up for what's right 

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00:14:55,960 --> 00:14:58,160
and you don't really worry about
what's going to happen to you on

299
00:14:58,160 --> 00:15:00,480
the other side of it. 
But it's really hard to read the

300
00:15:00,480 --> 00:15:02,400
story thinking that they thought
that they were going to have a 

301
00:15:02,400 --> 00:15:05,720
successful revolt. 
And also like, was the revolt 

302
00:15:06,040 --> 00:15:07,320
successful? 
Did it end? 

303
00:15:07,320 --> 00:15:09,160
Like, did it ever end? 
Was there ever? 

304
00:15:09,160 --> 00:15:12,560
Like, you know, it gets really 
dicey when you look at the 

305
00:15:12,560 --> 00:15:16,040
history beyond the actual 
lighting of the menorah in the 

306
00:15:16,040 --> 00:15:18,760
rededication of the Temple, 
which is why the book ends 

307
00:15:18,760 --> 00:15:20,080
there. 
Fantastic. 

308
00:15:20,160 --> 00:15:22,080
And then it's it's that's 
incredible. 

309
00:15:22,080 --> 00:15:26,640
OK, so you've spoken about the 
shit of Crisis and the absence 

310
00:15:26,640 --> 00:15:29,040
of compelling male heroes in 
Jewish literature. 

311
00:15:29,400 --> 00:15:31,960
How does your protagonist Gilad,
fill this gap? 

312
00:15:32,160 --> 00:15:36,200
What What impact do you hope his
character will have on young 

313
00:15:36,200 --> 00:15:39,160
male readers? 
OK, I love that question. 

314
00:15:39,160 --> 00:15:40,680
Thank you so much. 
I really feel like you did your 

315
00:15:40,680 --> 00:15:42,080
research. 
You know, I feel like you like 

316
00:15:42,080 --> 00:15:44,680
you understand what I was trying
to do here again. 

317
00:15:44,680 --> 00:15:48,000
So what you just did is like, 
is, is Mary not to to use like 

318
00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:51,680
a, you know, a too apropos of a 
term, But the shut off crisis 

319
00:15:51,680 --> 00:15:54,680
study with this right, which is 
that part of what we found in 

320
00:15:54,680 --> 00:15:56,920
the shut off crisis study. 
I'm like on one foot is that it 

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00:15:56,920 --> 00:16:00,160
seems to be that men are much 
more likely to veer left and off

322
00:16:00,160 --> 00:16:02,920
of the beaten path path of 
Judaism than are women. 

323
00:16:03,720 --> 00:16:06,400
And what what's happening and 
why it's happening is a larger 

324
00:16:06,400 --> 00:16:08,480
scale question that really 
nobody could answer. 

325
00:16:08,960 --> 00:16:11,680
But in terms of having done the 
research, I was the qualitative 

326
00:16:11,680 --> 00:16:13,080
researcher. 
So I was the one who listened to

327
00:16:13,080 --> 00:16:17,040
the stories and again and again 
and again and again and sort of 

328
00:16:17,040 --> 00:16:20,280
really had to hold all of that, 
the tension around the shut up 

329
00:16:20,280 --> 00:16:21,920
crisis, both for the single 
people and the people who are 

330
00:16:21,920 --> 00:16:23,840
trying to help the single people
in one way or another. 

331
00:16:24,720 --> 00:16:26,520
And really this was like part of
the answer that I came up with 

332
00:16:26,520 --> 00:16:30,120
is like, we have to do a better 
job speaking to the soul of 

333
00:16:30,120 --> 00:16:32,360
developing, especially males in 
Judaism, right? 

334
00:16:32,360 --> 00:16:35,360
Something social, like some 
socialization, culturalization, 

335
00:16:35,360 --> 00:16:38,760
pieces off that like more men 
are born than women, you know, 

336
00:16:38,960 --> 00:16:42,880
whatever demographically, 
statistically, but then men seem

337
00:16:42,880 --> 00:16:45,120
to like disappear somewhere. 
Where are they going, right? 

338
00:16:45,120 --> 00:16:49,200
So again, for for me feeling 
like I had something that I 

339
00:16:49,200 --> 00:16:51,560
could do about that was very 
important, that I wasn't just 

340
00:16:51,560 --> 00:16:54,000
helpless and going to watch the 
train wreck happen and hope that

341
00:16:54,000 --> 00:16:56,240
it wasn't my kids who suffered, 
but someone else's kids who 

342
00:16:56,240 --> 00:16:57,880
suffered. 
Like that wasn't really going to

343
00:16:57,880 --> 00:16:59,960
be good enough for me. 
And this was the place where I 

344
00:16:59,960 --> 00:17:03,720
felt like I could do something 
about that by again, introducing

345
00:17:03,840 --> 00:17:07,319
these characters that allowed 
Jewish, again, especially 

346
00:17:07,319 --> 00:17:14,640
developing Jewish male minds and
souls and characters with models

347
00:17:14,640 --> 00:17:16,119
that spoke to them. 
So I'm going to talk about that 

348
00:17:16,119 --> 00:17:18,000
in a second. 
But really like for me, thinking

349
00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:20,800
back about the men who again, 
it's funny, like the men in my 

350
00:17:20,800 --> 00:17:24,880
life who I call when I have a 
question about like a question 

351
00:17:24,880 --> 00:17:26,680
about morality, they're all 
there. 

352
00:17:26,720 --> 00:17:28,800
There are like two of them that 
are like my go to. 

353
00:17:28,800 --> 00:17:30,600
If I'm like, I'm not really sure
what to do about this, Obviously

354
00:17:30,600 --> 00:17:31,920
I ask my husband. 
And then I have like these two 

355
00:17:31,920 --> 00:17:34,640
people who I worked with and 
both of them are big comic book 

356
00:17:34,640 --> 00:17:36,240
people. 
They're both people who are 

357
00:17:36,240 --> 00:17:38,480
heavily impacted by reading 
comic books when they were a 

358
00:17:38,480 --> 00:17:40,600
kid. 
Like they just have this moral 

359
00:17:40,600 --> 00:17:44,880
piece of them that has spent a 
lot of time and imagining good 

360
00:17:44,880 --> 00:17:47,320
and evil and feeling like 
they're on the side of the good 

361
00:17:47,760 --> 00:17:49,200
and it really makes them moral 
people. 

362
00:17:49,200 --> 00:17:51,920
I really do feel like that. 
So I really, again, wanted to 

363
00:17:51,920 --> 00:17:53,880
do, that's where I felt like I 
could just do something about 

364
00:17:53,880 --> 00:17:55,640
that by introducing these 
heroes. 

365
00:17:56,040 --> 00:17:58,160
But that being said, again, the 
main character of the book is 

366
00:17:58,160 --> 00:18:00,760
not Yehuda Homokibee. 
It's not even any of the five 

367
00:18:00,760 --> 00:18:03,400
Hashimanayi brothers, 
Ormatisyahu, even though they 

368
00:18:03,400 --> 00:18:06,920
are the heroes of the Hanukkah 
story, But the hero of the story

369
00:18:06,920 --> 00:18:11,280
I knew had to be much more 
fallible then I was OK, like 

370
00:18:11,280 --> 00:18:15,520
making you Huda Homocoby and had
to in some way resonate with 

371
00:18:15,520 --> 00:18:20,560
these like deep soulful question
that every developing human kind

372
00:18:20,560 --> 00:18:23,560
of goes through in their minds. 
A big influence for me here, 

373
00:18:23,560 --> 00:18:25,720
which I'll have to like kind of 
give deference to is Joseph 

374
00:18:25,720 --> 00:18:29,080
Campbell, who was a mythologist 
who studied the the myths of all

375
00:18:29,080 --> 00:18:31,320
cultures and which myths 
survived in the different 

376
00:18:31,320 --> 00:18:33,080
cultures. 
He basically mapped what he 

377
00:18:33,080 --> 00:18:34,440
called the hero's journey, 
right? 

378
00:18:34,440 --> 00:18:37,200
That every good story and this 
was a really a shift that I got 

379
00:18:37,200 --> 00:18:39,520
from Campbell. 
Every good story is not about 

380
00:18:39,520 --> 00:18:42,040
something that happens. 
Sometimes we think that, right? 

381
00:18:42,040 --> 00:18:44,480
Like I say that this is a 
historical fiction about the 

382
00:18:44,480 --> 00:18:46,880
Hanukkah time period. 
It's not really a historical 

383
00:18:46,880 --> 00:18:48,360
fiction about the Hanukkah time 
period. 

384
00:18:48,520 --> 00:18:52,600
It's really a story about a 
specific person and the story is

385
00:18:52,600 --> 00:18:56,240
about that person's shift 
because that's the part that 

386
00:18:56,240 --> 00:18:58,160
resonates with the human who's 
reading it. 

387
00:18:58,320 --> 00:19:00,880
That's the part that feels like 
it's speaking to our soul and 

388
00:19:00,880 --> 00:19:03,840
teaching us a little bit about 
how we could show up in our own 

389
00:19:03,840 --> 00:19:06,840
struggles and in our own lives. 
And the backdrop of that was the

390
00:19:06,840 --> 00:19:09,440
Hanukkah story, right again, 
which is I'm sort of being 

391
00:19:09,440 --> 00:19:11,600
tongue in cheek are like just 
extremist in general because 

392
00:19:11,600 --> 00:19:12,800
like that's a little bit my 
personality. 

393
00:19:12,800 --> 00:19:15,000
Like obviously it is a 
historical fiction about the 

394
00:19:15,200 --> 00:19:19,360
about the Hanukkah time period. 
And I was obsessed with making 

395
00:19:19,360 --> 00:19:21,920
every single detail of the 
Hanukkah like a time period. 

396
00:19:21,920 --> 00:19:24,520
True, right. 
Every single thing I said to my 

397
00:19:24,520 --> 00:19:26,960
publisher at some point, I was 
like, there's not a shred of 

398
00:19:26,960 --> 00:19:30,160
known history that shows that 
any part of the book couldn't 

399
00:19:30,160 --> 00:19:32,720
have happened exactly. 
Like I said it happened. 

400
00:19:32,880 --> 00:19:34,560
And he was like, OK, but that 
doesn't mean that like, it did 

401
00:19:34,560 --> 00:19:36,200
happen that way. 
And I was like, OK, fair. 

402
00:19:36,200 --> 00:19:38,320
Right. 
Like, obviously it doesn't mean 

403
00:19:38,320 --> 00:19:40,040
that like it, it did happen this
way. 

404
00:19:40,040 --> 00:19:42,000
But like, it could have. 
It could have. 

405
00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:44,920
There is not a shred of known 
history that directly 

406
00:19:44,920 --> 00:19:47,400
contradicts anything that I said
about any of the characters or 

407
00:19:47,400 --> 00:19:49,160
anything that happened in this 
in this book. 

408
00:19:49,160 --> 00:19:51,480
And I was like, again, in a 
certain way, obsessed with for 

409
00:19:51,480 --> 00:19:54,720
that because I wanted the 
backdrop to be something that 

410
00:19:54,720 --> 00:19:57,680
the reader could trust. 
Because if you could fall into a

411
00:19:57,680 --> 00:20:01,320
story and trust that the 
background is real and just sort

412
00:20:01,320 --> 00:20:05,360
of like relax into therefore 
just the perspective of the main

413
00:20:05,360 --> 00:20:09,720
character, you get to try on 
this experience of what would it

414
00:20:09,720 --> 00:20:13,440
have felt like if I was a Jew 
not born into the 21st century? 

415
00:20:13,520 --> 00:20:16,720
But what would it have felt like
if I was a young Jew born into 

416
00:20:16,720 --> 00:20:20,920
165 BCE where like there was all
of this? 

417
00:20:21,440 --> 00:20:23,520
Constraint against my religious 
life. 

418
00:20:23,720 --> 00:20:26,600
The stakes of standing up to it 
were astronomical. 

419
00:20:26,760 --> 00:20:29,520
There was a tiny little fraction
of people who think they're 

420
00:20:29,520 --> 00:20:32,000
going to fight back. 
Do I want to fight back? 

421
00:20:32,000 --> 00:20:34,800
Am I willing to do that? 
Am I willing to stake my own 

422
00:20:34,800 --> 00:20:36,440
life? 
Am I willing to stake the lives 

423
00:20:36,440 --> 00:20:38,520
of my loved ones and everything 
that I care about? 

424
00:20:38,760 --> 00:20:40,520
Because the stakes are really 
high. 

425
00:20:40,520 --> 00:20:42,960
If you're part of a rebellion 
and and you lose an ancient 

426
00:20:42,960 --> 00:20:45,000
world, it didn't get more 
gruesome than that. 

427
00:20:45,000 --> 00:20:47,720
And I'll spare you the actual 
stories about like the way that 

428
00:20:47,720 --> 00:20:49,760
they used to kill rebels was 
worse than the way they used to 

429
00:20:49,760 --> 00:20:52,480
kill anybody else, right? 
Like this stakes were very high.

430
00:20:52,640 --> 00:20:56,120
What would it have felt like to 
have to make that choice to 

431
00:20:56,120 --> 00:20:58,720
fight alongside the Huda 
Hamakabi, to fight for the 

432
00:20:58,720 --> 00:21:00,960
Jewish people, to fight for the 
God of the Jews? 

433
00:21:01,160 --> 00:21:02,240
Like what would it have felt 
like? 

434
00:21:02,240 --> 00:21:04,960
And again, that's what I wanted 
the reader to sort of be able to

435
00:21:04,960 --> 00:21:07,760
experience, which is why it 
wasn't any of the Hashemani 

436
00:21:07,760 --> 00:21:09,640
brothers or Matisyo who's the 
hero. 

437
00:21:09,920 --> 00:21:14,120
It's this much more fallible, 
uncertain character who sort of 

438
00:21:14,120 --> 00:21:18,080
represents than anybody who 
might have had to fight 

439
00:21:18,080 --> 00:21:20,640
alongside Yehuda Hamakabi, of 
which there were many people. 

440
00:21:20,720 --> 00:21:23,360
My son this morning in carpool, 
my 11 year old was asking me all

441
00:21:23,360 --> 00:21:25,920
sorts of questions about about 
the main characters and who was 

442
00:21:25,920 --> 00:21:27,760
real and who was like 
historically accurate and who 

443
00:21:27,760 --> 00:21:30,080
wasn't. 
And I said to him, I was like, 

444
00:21:30,080 --> 00:21:31,600
yeah, you know, you're right, 
Gilad is not historically 

445
00:21:31,600 --> 00:21:32,760
accurate. 
You as I was like, we only 

446
00:21:32,760 --> 00:21:36,840
actually interestingly of the of
the entire backdrop backdrop of 

447
00:21:36,840 --> 00:21:39,200
the hash of the hash Mani and 
Hanukkah time story. 

448
00:21:39,200 --> 00:21:41,280
We actually only know the names 
of two other people who fought 

449
00:21:41,280 --> 00:21:43,840
alongside Ehudah Makabe, right? 
There were several hundreds of 

450
00:21:43,840 --> 00:21:45,920
several thousands of them. 
We only know the names of two 

451
00:21:45,920 --> 00:21:48,360
because they disobeyed Ehudah 
Makabe's orders later on and 

452
00:21:48,360 --> 00:21:51,920
like basically LED their guys 
into a slaughter beyond again, 

453
00:21:51,920 --> 00:21:54,880
beyond the closing of this book 
and after the Hanukkah like 

454
00:21:54,880 --> 00:21:58,280
menorah miracle time period. 
But I said to I said to my son, 

455
00:21:58,280 --> 00:22:00,680
I was like, but listen, there 
were people right like it's not 

456
00:22:00,680 --> 00:22:02,680
like there was nobody. 
It wasn't just the five of them.

457
00:22:02,680 --> 00:22:06,400
There were a lot of people who 
fought and this is the the story

458
00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:09,280
exactly as it played out between
the five Kashimanayi brothers 

459
00:22:09,520 --> 00:22:11,920
and the Greeks who they fought, 
they fought them where, when and

460
00:22:11,920 --> 00:22:14,560
how they fought. 
And all the story does all like 

461
00:22:14,560 --> 00:22:17,560
my book does is sort of paint 
how all that could have happened

462
00:22:17,560 --> 00:22:19,960
in a real way. 
So again, like I'm very 

463
00:22:19,960 --> 00:22:22,200
compelled by these characters 
because they're not real, but 

464
00:22:22,200 --> 00:22:24,040
there were real people there 
were. 

465
00:22:24,280 --> 00:22:26,800
And I wanted to be that as you 
were a reader reading the book, 

466
00:22:26,960 --> 00:22:30,120
you feel what you what the 
choices you would have had to 

467
00:22:30,120 --> 00:22:32,360
make if you were going to show 
up in the way that the main 

468
00:22:32,360 --> 00:22:34,640
character keeps debating showing
up in this war against the 

469
00:22:34,640 --> 00:22:37,320
Greeks. 
Fascinating. 

470
00:22:37,480 --> 00:22:42,080
Very, very interesting. 
So, as a self-proclaimed purist,

471
00:22:42,520 --> 00:22:44,920
how did you she? 
Kind of described a little bit 

472
00:22:44,920 --> 00:22:48,120
of it, but OK, we'll, we'll. 
Yeah, just the historical 

473
00:22:48,120 --> 00:22:52,440
accuracy aspect of it, because 
obviously you have to glean from

474
00:22:53,000 --> 00:22:54,840
Josephus and the Book of the 
Maccabees. 

475
00:22:54,840 --> 00:23:01,720
So can you just share the the 
challenges of detailing, you 

476
00:23:01,720 --> 00:23:03,320
know, the the whole historical 
picture? 

477
00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:08,360
And how did your historical 
research reshape your 

478
00:23:08,360 --> 00:23:11,160
understanding of Hanukkah? 
That's a great, that's a great 

479
00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:13,120
question. 
OK, so exactly like you said 

480
00:23:13,120 --> 00:23:15,720
earlier, right, every other 
Jewish holiday that we encounter

481
00:23:15,720 --> 00:23:17,920
or Jewish time period, even fast
days, right, that we encounter, 

482
00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:21,160
for the most part, they have a 
specific written event that they

483
00:23:21,160 --> 00:23:23,960
commemorate that we can go right
back to the source, right? 

484
00:23:23,960 --> 00:23:26,880
Let's say pays off. 
You can go back to schmos, you 

485
00:23:26,880 --> 00:23:29,000
know, dozens of Prakam about it.
You could also have the 

486
00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:30,840
Haggadah. 
You have like multiple places 

487
00:23:30,840 --> 00:23:31,680
that you can hit. 
You have right? 

488
00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:34,640
You're like, right, there's tons
of places that you can re look 

489
00:23:34,640 --> 00:23:35,840
up the history history in 
Hanukkah. 

490
00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:37,760
We don't have that anywhere. 
We have like little paltry 

491
00:23:37,760 --> 00:23:42,000
pieces of Hazal who are not 
always exactly the way like they

492
00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:44,600
don't seem to want to or care 
about telling the historical 

493
00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:46,400
story, which is like Hazal in 
most places. 

494
00:23:46,400 --> 00:23:50,360
The same thing with the Corbin 
Baez story and there's a ton and

495
00:23:50,360 --> 00:23:52,160
save for Hamakabeim and 
Josephus. 

496
00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:54,520
So again, like historically what
I did is that I read all the 

497
00:23:54,520 --> 00:23:57,880
primary texts, the two the two 
books of the Sabermakabeim 1, 

498
00:23:57,880 --> 00:24:00,760
Sabermakabeim 2 and Josephus on 
it. 

499
00:24:01,480 --> 00:24:02,680
I can go a little bit more into 
detail. 

500
00:24:02,680 --> 00:24:05,080
I'm not sure like how nerdy you 
want this conversation to get. 

501
00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:06,200
So like making. 
This nerdy? 

502
00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:08,040
Give it a little nerdy to know, 
yeah? 

503
00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:09,080
A little nerdy. 
OK, great. 

504
00:24:09,440 --> 00:24:11,880
So there's there's Maccabees 1 
and Maccabees 2. 

505
00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:14,760
Maccabees 1 is a claim to 
basically be historically 

506
00:24:14,760 --> 00:24:17,080
accurate. 
Any secondary texts that you 

507
00:24:17,080 --> 00:24:20,120
find talking about this historic
historic historicity of the time

508
00:24:20,120 --> 00:24:22,840
period are going to be quoting 
primarily from the first book of

509
00:24:22,840 --> 00:24:25,840
the Maccabees. 
It's actually purportedly 

510
00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:28,360
written probably by a young 
person who fought alongside the 

511
00:24:28,360 --> 00:24:30,080
Huda Maccabee. 
So that was also part of the 

512
00:24:30,080 --> 00:24:32,160
inspiration for the character of
Gilad is like, this is cool. 

513
00:24:32,160 --> 00:24:35,120
Like all we know about this time
period is from like a young guy 

514
00:24:35,120 --> 00:24:38,080
who because again, he survives 
way beyond all the all the I 

515
00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:39,840
think all five of the Hashemi 
brothers. 

516
00:24:40,480 --> 00:24:42,880
So again, he must have been 
young at the at the onset of it.

517
00:24:43,400 --> 00:24:45,680
The second book of the Maccabees
is where we have all like the 

518
00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:49,640
gruesome, gory stories of what 
was happening, but we also have 

519
00:24:49,640 --> 00:24:53,320
a lot more like, you know, kind 
of apocryphal miraculous 

520
00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:55,320
happenings. 
So the second book of the 

521
00:24:55,320 --> 00:24:57,880
Maccabees is like a little bit 
more colorful and a little a lot

522
00:24:57,880 --> 00:25:00,200
less historically accurate. 
So no one really, it quotes that

523
00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:02,120
unless you're just trying to add
like a little bit of color 

524
00:25:02,120 --> 00:25:04,840
because it's like, interesting. 
And Josephus, again, who's 

525
00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:08,280
writing around 100 and 5200 
years after the Hosmani time 

526
00:25:08,280 --> 00:25:10,880
period. 
Josephus, like any historian, 

527
00:25:10,960 --> 00:25:14,840
had all the texts available to 
him, many of which we don't have

528
00:25:14,840 --> 00:25:16,600
right now, right? 
The assumption is that Josephus 

529
00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:19,280
was not only working off the 
first second book of the Mcabees

530
00:25:19,480 --> 00:25:22,360
and the lore that had developed 
since then, but potentially that

531
00:25:22,360 --> 00:25:25,680
he had the manuscripts or that 
he had the text of the Diaries 

532
00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:28,880
of other people who had fought 
alongside the Hosmani, maybe 

533
00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:32,160
some of like the the royal texts
of the time. 

534
00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:34,680
So again, Josephus like he gives
names to things. 

535
00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:37,040
He gives details to things that 
not that are do not show up in 

536
00:25:37,040 --> 00:25:38,720
the 1st and 2nd book of the 
Maccabees, but again, like 

537
00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:41,120
mostly historically accurate 
there. 

538
00:25:41,440 --> 00:25:45,960
So those are the three primarily
the three primary like for like 

539
00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:47,800
first primary sources that I 
used. 

540
00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:51,120
And then again, I did a ton of 
secondary secondary source 

541
00:25:51,120 --> 00:25:52,920
research and also like saying 
who they quote and how they 

542
00:25:52,920 --> 00:25:54,160
quote. 
There's a map in the beginning 

543
00:25:54,160 --> 00:25:59,080
like any good fantasy or like or
really good story needs to have 

544
00:25:59,080 --> 00:26:00,960
that in which the characters 
move around needs to have a good

545
00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:02,320
map. 
So like I had to cross 

546
00:26:02,320 --> 00:26:03,640
reference. 
There is no available. 

547
00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:06,520
It's like Rick bonkers to me. 
Like there's no available map of

548
00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:09,920
Judea at the time of the Hashmi.
Very often you find maps that 

549
00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:12,200
have like just the places where 
Houda Maki fought battles and 

550
00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:14,160
like little arrows like where he
went when right. 

551
00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:17,240
So like I had to cross reference
six different maps and make sure

552
00:26:17,240 --> 00:26:19,240
that every time the characters 
were going in like Google Maps, 

553
00:26:19,240 --> 00:26:21,320
like how long it would take to 
walk from one place to another. 

554
00:26:21,520 --> 00:26:23,400
And again, just like make sure 
that everyone who was doing 

555
00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:25,560
stuff like it would have made 
sense at the at the time. 

556
00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:30,000
So again, like I was, you know, 
whatever, like snakes that are 

557
00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:32,360
mentioned, I had to like look up
different ancient snakes and 

558
00:26:32,360 --> 00:26:35,160
texts that had record of what 
snakes were like in the Middle 

559
00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:37,360
East at the time. 
So like, again, I really tried 

560
00:26:37,360 --> 00:26:40,920
to make it you even, you know 
what'd you say? 

561
00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:42,560
You. 
Even researched guerrilla 

562
00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:43,360
tactics? 
No. 

563
00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:44,680
I did exactly. 
Yeah. 

564
00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:47,840
That was actually, that was the 
hardest piece for me to figure 

565
00:26:47,880 --> 00:26:50,800
out because it's not, it's not 
clear. 

566
00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:54,160
Right. 
Like how on earth Yahuda 

567
00:26:54,160 --> 00:26:56,600
Hamakabee with really no 
military experience, I don't 

568
00:26:56,600 --> 00:26:58,160
know. 
I said really Yahuda Hamakabee 

569
00:26:58,160 --> 00:27:02,520
with no military experience 
would have kept alive a few 100 

570
00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:04,680
to a few 1000 people in the 
middle of the woods. 

571
00:27:04,760 --> 00:27:06,360
Like, how do you do that? 
Right? 

572
00:27:06,360 --> 00:27:08,760
What is the way in which the 
Makabeam actually could have 

573
00:27:08,760 --> 00:27:11,520
passed messages to each other 
and fought back against the 

574
00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:12,640
Greeks? 
Like again, we think it's like 

575
00:27:12,640 --> 00:27:15,720
kind of magical, but I like I 
spent a long time trying to 

576
00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:17,560
research like how would 
something like this happen? 

577
00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:20,280
For that, I really took from two
places I took from the Vikings. 

578
00:27:20,280 --> 00:27:22,480
Like, I actually researched a 
lot about the Vikings and how 

579
00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:24,760
they, again, because they would 
kind of like, come in and do 

580
00:27:24,760 --> 00:27:27,200
like hit and kills and then 
like, take over villages, right?

581
00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:29,920
So like, how did the Vikings 
keep alive like a few 1000 

582
00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:32,640
troops in different terrain that
was not their own? 

583
00:27:33,120 --> 00:27:35,720
And I researched like, 
resistance movements during 

584
00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:38,600
World War 2 where you had like, 
large groups of people living 

585
00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:41,200
off in the forest having to 
forage and keep and like, 

586
00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:43,160
survive and stay alive. 
So like between the two of 

587
00:27:43,160 --> 00:27:46,520
those, I had to come up with 
like some plausible way in which

588
00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:49,000
Hidal Maccabee would have been 
able to keep alive several 100 

589
00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:51,680
people who fought with him and 
again, pass messages throughout 

590
00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:53,480
Judea and keep the Jewish 
villages alive. 

591
00:27:54,560 --> 00:27:55,480
So thank you for mentioning 
that. 

592
00:27:55,480 --> 00:27:57,160
Cause like, I think, I think 
it's kind of cool, right? 

593
00:27:57,160 --> 00:27:59,040
Like, again, this wasn't what I 
said to my publisher. 

594
00:27:59,040 --> 00:28:00,400
Like, is this the way that it 
happened? 

595
00:28:00,520 --> 00:28:03,120
Like, I don't know. 
But is this the way it had to 

596
00:28:03,120 --> 00:28:06,040
happen some way? 
Like they had to do it, It 

597
00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:08,560
really happened. 
So like, how did he keep alive 

598
00:28:08,960 --> 00:28:10,160
and how did he actually fight 
back? 

599
00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:12,240
And how did they pass messages? 
Like it's got to happen somehow.

600
00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:13,680
So like, here's a plausible way 
it could happen. 

601
00:28:14,320 --> 00:28:17,400
So how did you find like the, 
how did you strike a balance 

602
00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:22,080
between the older sources, let's
say like those primary sources, 

603
00:28:22,520 --> 00:28:27,080
which didn't highlight the, you 
know, the, the, the type, the, 

604
00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:29,600
the story that we have today, 
which is like the festival of 

605
00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:32,920
lights and the miracle of lights
and, and all that with the 

606
00:28:33,360 --> 00:28:37,600
rabbinic kind of the Talmudic 
version of it. 

607
00:28:37,600 --> 00:28:39,680
How did you strike a balance 
between those two? 

608
00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:41,520
Yeah, I didn't. 
I, I'll be honest with you 

609
00:28:41,520 --> 00:28:43,600
again, 'cause like you told me, 
I'm allowed to like I did not 

610
00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:48,560
really strike a balance right? 
Where I what I did was primarily

611
00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:53,720
talk about the wars and the 
history and the miracle of the 

612
00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:55,880
lights happens like in the 
epilogue. 

613
00:28:55,880 --> 00:28:58,520
It's not even like a chapter. 
It's like an epilogue, but 

614
00:28:58,520 --> 00:29:01,120
again, like it knowing and 
researching the time period and 

615
00:29:01,120 --> 00:29:02,880
again, trying to imagine what it
really would have felt like to 

616
00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:04,600
be there. 
It's got to be how it actually 

617
00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:07,760
happened, right? 
They fought the wars for like 2 

618
00:29:07,760 --> 00:29:10,120
1/2 to three years before they 
came in and rededicated the, 

619
00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:12,560
the, the temple. 
And again, exactly like you're 

620
00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:14,360
saying what you were referring 
to is the fact that the miracle 

621
00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:17,440
of the lights does not feature 
neither in the first nor second 

622
00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:19,240
book of the Maccabees, nor in 
Josephus. 

623
00:29:19,240 --> 00:29:22,440
Josephus has this very weird 
line where he's like, and we 

624
00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:24,960
call the festival lights. 
I'm not really sure why. 

625
00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:28,360
I guess it's because it was like
light in the darkness and you're

626
00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:29,480
like, you're not really sure 
why. 

627
00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:31,520
Is it because they found him in 
Nora and lit it and it stayed 

628
00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:33,960
lit for eight days. 
Like I can tell you why, right? 

629
00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:36,160
So again, it's like this very 
disorienting thing that you read

630
00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:39,200
of your where you're like, what,
Like what? 

631
00:29:39,560 --> 00:29:41,360
Where did like, what am I 
supposed to do with that? 

632
00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:44,400
So again, I I actually and 
again, I'm being honest, I don't

633
00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:48,040
really care. 
I happen to not really care. 

634
00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:51,520
Like I think that the I think 
that I love the fact that there 

635
00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:54,720
was no menorah actually in the 
Temple because it had been sold 

636
00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:57,480
by a Cohen gudal who was not 
even a cohane like ages ago to 

637
00:29:57,480 --> 00:29:59,280
Antiochus. 
So like the makka beam had to 

638
00:29:59,280 --> 00:30:01,720
come back and like rebuild with 
their own hands all the Calum of

639
00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:03,240
the base. 
I make dush like I love the 

640
00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:05,720
image of the menorah at the time
being this like wooden thing 

641
00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:07,840
with like a bunch of metal 
things that they like lit. 

642
00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:10,160
Like did they find the oil? 
Did it stay lit? 

643
00:30:10,280 --> 00:30:13,280
Again, my inclination is like, 
yeah, I love it. 

644
00:30:13,280 --> 00:30:16,200
Why does Josephus not know? 
I don't know, but like it 

645
00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:18,720
doesn't to me, it doesn't super 
matter. 

646
00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:22,840
It's part of our culture. 
But even at the time, like let's

647
00:30:22,840 --> 00:30:25,240
say, let's assume that it had 
happened, I assume it happened, 

648
00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:26,640
right? 
I like, I like it that it 

649
00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:28,440
happened. 
It doesn't destroy Hanukkah to 

650
00:30:28,440 --> 00:30:30,680
me if it didn't happen, right. 
So like let's assume that it 

651
00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:34,440
happened like if you were one of
the Hashmunayim and you had just

652
00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:36,520
or you or whatever, you were one
of the maca beams that fought 

653
00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:39,080
alongside the Hashmunayim. 
You finally made your way to 

654
00:30:39,080 --> 00:30:40,800
Jerusalem. 
You expected a ton of 

655
00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:42,160
resistance, didn't really get 
it. 

656
00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:44,560
You spent eight days, like, 
cleaning everything up. 

657
00:30:44,720 --> 00:30:46,800
The the maca beam themselves 
rebuilt. 

658
00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:50,080
They rebuilt the menorah. 
They light it and it stays lit. 

659
00:30:50,160 --> 00:30:53,600
Like, you're not surprised. 
I don't think you're surprised. 

660
00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:56,000
You're like, yeah, I knew that 
was going to happen. 

661
00:30:56,040 --> 00:30:58,920
Like the people in Jerusalem 
might be surprised, but you 

662
00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:02,880
literally had just experienced 
two major scale battles in which

663
00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:04,840
Yahudah Maccabee had lost not 
one man. 

664
00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:07,560
And you've been able to actually
stand up against the Greek 

665
00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:10,760
behemoth who had come against 
you with their top generals and 

666
00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:13,120
Yahudah Maccabee. 
Yahudah Maccabee, like Yahudah 

667
00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:16,640
Maccabee's general war tactic, 
was a direct target and kill of 

668
00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:19,560
the general of the Greeks. 
That was his war tactic across 

669
00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:21,600
the board. 
He didn't like putts around, you

670
00:31:21,600 --> 00:31:25,320
know, Maccabee went straight for
the general, the opposing 

671
00:31:25,320 --> 00:31:27,720
general, and with his own bare 
hands, with no military 

672
00:31:27,800 --> 00:31:30,320
experience, took down the top 
generals of the Greek army 

673
00:31:30,320 --> 00:31:31,560
again, like three times in a 
row. 

674
00:31:31,800 --> 00:31:33,920
Like, it's awesome. 
You fight alongside, you know, 

675
00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:36,200
Maccabee, and then you go and 
you see the candles lit and 

676
00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:38,680
you're like, yeah, God's here. 
Like, I get it. 

677
00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:41,960
So to me, the only like really 
open question that bothers me 

678
00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:46,160
that I don't know the answer to 
is like why if it didn't happen?

679
00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:49,240
If it didn't happen, like why 
weren't the wars enough for 

680
00:31:49,280 --> 00:31:51,880
Khazzal? 
Like why, why didn't they just 

681
00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:54,400
rest on their laurels and we're 
like, God fought the wars. 

682
00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:55,960
Like let's light the candles for
that reason. 

683
00:31:55,960 --> 00:31:59,560
Like why does it have to be the 
miracle of the oil that Khazzal 

684
00:31:59,560 --> 00:32:01,440
is looking at? 
Like why weren't the wars 

685
00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:02,120
enough? 
Like that? 

686
00:32:02,120 --> 00:32:06,440
That question bothers me. 
I actually love the fact that 

687
00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:09,760
you focused on that part, 
although I do if if I were to, 

688
00:32:10,280 --> 00:32:13,080
you know, speak for the 
tradition, it's obviously that 

689
00:32:13,280 --> 00:32:16,200
they want the the story. 
Sometimes when things get too, 

690
00:32:16,360 --> 00:32:19,240
too much about the military 
might, we forget that it's 

691
00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:21,720
really God running the show. 
So the highlighting, 

692
00:32:21,720 --> 00:32:24,560
highlighting of the miracle, it 
is a miracle. 

693
00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:26,840
Kind of what she said. 
Yeah, yeah, Rekindling the. 

694
00:32:26,840 --> 00:32:29,960
Yeah, exactly. 
Rekindling the menorah. 

695
00:32:30,120 --> 00:32:33,800
It's all part of one big theme. 
But I actually am curious about 

696
00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:35,920
one thing. 
I didn't even, you know, think 

697
00:32:35,920 --> 00:32:38,760
about this before, but I'm 
curious to know cuz writing a 

698
00:32:38,760 --> 00:32:41,520
story like this, you mentioned 
that you had a map and it just 

699
00:32:41,520 --> 00:32:43,520
like I started thinking of like 
Game of Thrones and. 

700
00:32:43,520 --> 00:32:47,360
All yeah, I promise me too. 
And I'm thinking to myself, and 

701
00:32:47,360 --> 00:32:51,320
I was thinking to myself, I'm 
like, I wonder who, who you know

702
00:32:51,640 --> 00:32:53,760
influenced your writing of 
dialogue? 

703
00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:56,360
Like, like what's your 
inspiration? 

704
00:32:56,360 --> 00:32:59,600
Because, right, it's kind of 
like you're, you're, you're 

705
00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:01,920
obviously, you know, you grew up
in America and, and you've 

706
00:33:01,920 --> 00:33:03,640
watched a bunch of shows, I'm 
sure. 

707
00:33:03,840 --> 00:33:08,480
So like, is there a particular 
kind of theme that or or style 

708
00:33:08,480 --> 00:33:11,800
that that influenced how you 
approached writing the dialogue?

709
00:33:13,840 --> 00:33:17,520
That's a great question. 
I I don't know, like I don't 

710
00:33:17,520 --> 00:33:20,560
really think so. 
I could say that the most 

711
00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:23,000
influential books to me growing 
up were Harry Potter and Lord of

712
00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:25,400
the Rings, right. 
Again, just in this developed 

713
00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:28,320
when I was a teenager. 
I really needed, I needed to 

714
00:33:28,320 --> 00:33:31,520
develop validation and I needed 
the understanding like the 

715
00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:33,720
empathy and the resonance, I 
think is a word we haven't quite

716
00:33:33,720 --> 00:33:35,600
used yet, right? 
I needed the resonance with 

717
00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:38,200
someone who was going through 
something that was a very hard 

718
00:33:38,200 --> 00:33:39,200
time. 
I was going through a very hard 

719
00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:41,800
time at the time. 
I'm sure all teenagers think 

720
00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:48,640
that, but just having the heroes
who spoke to an element of the 

721
00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:52,000
human experience that my world 
was not speaking to the adults 

722
00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:55,680
in the, in my world. 
And the, and the, the, my peers 

723
00:33:55,680 --> 00:34:01,120
in my world were really not, 
they weren't acknowledging the 

724
00:34:01,120 --> 00:34:04,800
struggles of like of the, the 
inner struggles of every human 

725
00:34:04,800 --> 00:34:07,360
at the time. 
And the fact that Harry Potter 

726
00:34:07,360 --> 00:34:10,800
especially did really gave me 
strength to kind of like 

727
00:34:10,800 --> 00:34:12,840
continue on my own path as a, as
a human. 

728
00:34:13,080 --> 00:34:16,159
So I would say like Harry Potter
was, was the biggest influencer 

729
00:34:16,159 --> 00:34:17,920
for me. 
Lord of the rings. 

730
00:34:17,920 --> 00:34:19,840
Again, just like the epic good 
versus evil battles. 

731
00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:23,760
I like loved to. 
I'm not 100% sure where exactly 

732
00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:26,880
the voice came from, where 
exactly the style came from. 

733
00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:30,920
I'm actually again, I'll be, 
I'll be honest again, I'm like 

734
00:34:30,920 --> 00:34:32,719
hoping this book sells well 
enough that I could write 

735
00:34:32,719 --> 00:34:36,360
another one about the Corbin 
bias time period because I love 

736
00:34:36,360 --> 00:34:38,199
the Corbin bias time period. 
But also it's weirder. 

737
00:34:38,199 --> 00:34:39,400
Like you're going to write a 
hero narrative. 

738
00:34:39,400 --> 00:34:41,880
It makes sense to do that about 
the Kashmir Naiya Konica story 

739
00:34:41,880 --> 00:34:43,280
and not so much about Corbin 
bias. 

740
00:34:43,719 --> 00:34:45,920
But I'm having a hard time 
getting out like not having my 

741
00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:47,840
main character sound like Gilad 
in his head, you know what I 

742
00:34:47,840 --> 00:34:49,280
mean? 
Like in a certain way, maybe 

743
00:34:49,280 --> 00:34:51,840
it's just like the inner, my 
inner voice. 

744
00:34:51,960 --> 00:34:54,199
Like I don't know, I'm not 
really sure. 

745
00:34:54,199 --> 00:34:57,120
Like definitely one of my 
friends texted me that she's 

746
00:34:57,120 --> 00:34:59,840
like, who's the narrator? 
And I'm like, are you asking if 

747
00:34:59,840 --> 00:35:03,280
he's historically accurate or 
are you asking what part of my 

748
00:35:03,280 --> 00:35:05,120
psyche he is? 
I'm like, I'm not sure what your

749
00:35:05,120 --> 00:35:07,280
question is, right. 
So in the same way I'm like, I 

750
00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:08,440
don't really know how to answer 
that. 

751
00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:11,200
Like I don't think I have like 
one specific influence. 

752
00:35:11,200 --> 00:35:14,200
I think in a certain way, like, 
I don't know, all of us, like 

753
00:35:14,200 --> 00:35:18,320
you sit down and you try to 
write a story that is in a 

754
00:35:18,320 --> 00:35:21,600
certain way the story of it's 
the story that I wish I'd had as

755
00:35:21,600 --> 00:35:23,080
a teenager. 
It's the story that I wish I 

756
00:35:23,080 --> 00:35:26,000
knew about Hanukkah for, for, 
you know, all 30 plus years of 

757
00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:30,240
my life. 
Like there's a certain, there's 

758
00:35:30,240 --> 00:35:34,160
a certain, like, yeah, bleeding 
of my soul onto those pages. 

759
00:35:34,160 --> 00:35:36,400
And I have absolutely actually 
no idea where it came from. 

760
00:35:36,680 --> 00:35:38,160
But what's the reaction you're 
getting? 

761
00:35:38,160 --> 00:35:39,280
Yeah. 
What's the reaction you're 

762
00:35:39,280 --> 00:35:41,520
getting from, like your kids and
people around you who've read 

763
00:35:41,520 --> 00:35:44,120
it? 
Do you feel like it's resonating

764
00:35:44,120 --> 00:35:45,960
and it's something that you can 
build off of? 

765
00:35:46,720 --> 00:35:49,840
Yeah, I, I really hope so. 
I do feel like that I was very 

766
00:35:49,840 --> 00:35:51,400
nervous to give it to my 11 year
old for a while. 

767
00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:53,480
He didn't read it 'cause he knew
that it was like, it's like a 

768
00:35:53,480 --> 00:35:55,360
little scary for 11 year olds, I
think. 

769
00:35:55,360 --> 00:35:57,760
Like it's not, it's not really 
like that's the lowest bracket 

770
00:35:57,760 --> 00:35:59,240
that I'd be comfortable sharing 
it with. 

771
00:35:59,960 --> 00:36:02,560
So for a while he was kind of 
like scared to, to read it. 

772
00:36:02,560 --> 00:36:04,600
And then finally we read it 
together and I was nervous out 

773
00:36:04,600 --> 00:36:08,000
of my mind because I'm like, if 
he doesn't like it, like my ego 

774
00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:10,960
is crushed, right? 
And it was, it was it was kind 

775
00:36:10,960 --> 00:36:12,320
of like funny. 
This year also like around 

776
00:36:12,320 --> 00:36:14,680
Yamaha and where I'm like, I am 
heading into the one of the 

777
00:36:14,680 --> 00:36:17,640
biggest, like meaningful 
accomplishments of my life or 

778
00:36:17,640 --> 00:36:19,440
the biggest failure of my entire
life. 

779
00:36:19,440 --> 00:36:22,480
Like if I put this out and 
everyone's like that was weird. 

780
00:36:22,640 --> 00:36:24,080
What is going on? 
I really felt that. 

781
00:36:24,520 --> 00:36:26,040
That's scary. 
What'd you say? 

782
00:36:26,240 --> 00:36:28,120
No, I'm saying that's, that's a 
really scary thing. 

783
00:36:28,120 --> 00:36:31,240
I I felt that. 
Yeah, yeah. 

784
00:36:31,240 --> 00:36:34,880
So again, like, but for the most
part, I think for the most part,

785
00:36:34,880 --> 00:36:37,160
I'm getting very positive 
feedback, thank the good Lord. 

786
00:36:37,760 --> 00:36:40,000
And some people, some people get
it. 

787
00:36:40,160 --> 00:36:42,720
It's interesting. 
Some people like the the hero 

788
00:36:42,720 --> 00:36:45,640
narrative of it that really 
speaks to this kind of like 

789
00:36:45,640 --> 00:36:47,240
deeper development. 
I could tell. 

790
00:36:47,240 --> 00:36:49,280
Like, I could tell when they 
talk to me, when they text me 

791
00:36:49,280 --> 00:36:51,760
after they've read it. 
Like, for some people, it hits 

792
00:36:51,760 --> 00:36:54,320
really deep. 
And those are the people that 

793
00:36:54,320 --> 00:36:56,280
are like me, you know, those are
the people who like, just 

794
00:36:56,280 --> 00:36:58,840
something about the hero 
narrative really gives us 

795
00:36:59,160 --> 00:37:04,600
courage to be able to like, show
up in the face of the outrageous

796
00:37:04,720 --> 00:37:09,160
slings of grief and gratitude 
and love and like pain that the 

797
00:37:09,160 --> 00:37:10,840
world tends to fling in our 
direction. 

798
00:37:12,400 --> 00:37:15,240
And it really helps, it really 
helps to have to have, again, I 

799
00:37:15,240 --> 00:37:16,880
learned a lot of about this from
Joseph Campbell. 

800
00:37:16,880 --> 00:37:20,040
It really helps to have heroes 
who in a certain way are showing

801
00:37:20,040 --> 00:37:21,560
the way. 
And again, I just want to just 

802
00:37:21,560 --> 00:37:23,600
claim that, like, a lot of that 
voice is not mine, right? 

803
00:37:23,600 --> 00:37:26,280
A lot of that voice is history. 
It's what happened in history. 

804
00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:29,000
And again, I know, I know we'd 
like, we know we'd like 

805
00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:30,320
schmoozed about this before we 
came on. 

806
00:37:30,320 --> 00:37:34,760
But Hirsch was a huge influence 
there for me in terms of being 

807
00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:37,320
able to give some hush Gothic 
direction to the text, right? 

808
00:37:37,320 --> 00:37:40,360
Like I can't tell you what 
Hanukkah was about. 

809
00:37:40,560 --> 00:37:42,960
I can't tell you the moral of 
the story. 

810
00:37:42,960 --> 00:37:45,200
Like that is again, far be it 
for me. 

811
00:37:45,200 --> 00:37:47,960
I have like ego issues, but not 
that big ego issues, right? 

812
00:37:47,960 --> 00:37:49,480
Like I, I wouldn't, I wouldn't 
go there. 

813
00:37:49,480 --> 00:37:51,920
I'm scared of that. 
So I really took a lot of my 

814
00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:57,840
direction from rehearsh as I do 
in general, but a lot of the 

815
00:37:57,920 --> 00:38:01,520
themes of like, you know, really
the moral that I wanted people 

816
00:38:01,520 --> 00:38:04,480
to walk out with that was 
rehearses writing on Hanukkah. 

817
00:38:04,640 --> 00:38:08,120
We just did a podcast with Rabbi
Semi Lerner on rehearsh. 

818
00:38:08,120 --> 00:38:11,280
You told me that you listen to 
that and we're kind of going 

819
00:38:11,280 --> 00:38:13,120
starting to go down the 
rehearsed rabbit hole. 

820
00:38:13,120 --> 00:38:15,600
But just for audience who didn't
hear that and don't know about 

821
00:38:15,600 --> 00:38:18,400
rehearsh, can you kind of 
explain how that you know how 

822
00:38:18,400 --> 00:38:20,400
you worked him into the 
narrative? 

823
00:38:20,920 --> 00:38:23,920
Yeah, so a few ways. 
Again, the 1st is just the 

824
00:38:23,920 --> 00:38:27,880
direction of of just really the 
moral, The moral point that I 

825
00:38:27,880 --> 00:38:31,280
wanted the whole story to be 
like kind of circling around, 

826
00:38:31,520 --> 00:38:33,240
which again, that moral point 
has to show up. 

827
00:38:33,240 --> 00:38:35,320
Not in the history, right. 
The moral point can't be like 

828
00:38:35,320 --> 00:38:36,520
God fights for the Jewish 
people. 

829
00:38:36,640 --> 00:38:39,240
That's an incredible point to 
sort of like relive during the 

830
00:38:39,240 --> 00:38:41,280
Hanukkah time period. 
But the moral has to be 

831
00:38:41,280 --> 00:38:43,160
something that the main 
character is dealing with in his

832
00:38:43,160 --> 00:38:45,680
own experience. 
And again, this is rehearsed, 

833
00:38:45,680 --> 00:38:47,560
rehearsed says like when you 
light the Hanukkah candles, 

834
00:38:47,720 --> 00:38:49,880
you're not thinking like the 
light in the dark isn't the fact

835
00:38:49,880 --> 00:38:52,640
that God fought the wars for the
sake of the Jewish people or on 

836
00:38:52,640 --> 00:38:54,600
behalf of the Jewish people, and
then God won and that we 

837
00:38:54,600 --> 00:38:56,520
rededicated the temple. 
He's like, that's not what the 

838
00:38:56,520 --> 00:38:58,160
light symbolizes, according to 
rehearse. 

839
00:38:58,160 --> 00:39:02,120
The light symbolizes that, that 
there is a light alive in the 

840
00:39:02,120 --> 00:39:05,640
soul of every Jew. 
That alone, if needed, could 

841
00:39:05,640 --> 00:39:07,960
save the entire Jewish world. 
According to rehearse. 

842
00:39:07,960 --> 00:39:10,800
Fascinatingly, like Yehuda 
Homocabe is not the hero of the 

843
00:39:10,800 --> 00:39:12,960
Hanukkah story, and neither is 
Gila or your other, right. 

844
00:39:12,960 --> 00:39:15,600
Like according to Yehuda to 
rehearse, the hero of the 

845
00:39:15,600 --> 00:39:18,960
Hanukkah story is Monteziyahu, 
who was the only person at the 

846
00:39:18,960 --> 00:39:21,720
time who was willing to stand up
for what he felt was right and 

847
00:39:21,720 --> 00:39:24,320
should be done. 
And according to rehearse that 

848
00:39:24,320 --> 00:39:29,120
alone, the the light in his own 
chest sparked alive back alive. 

849
00:39:29,280 --> 00:39:32,440
The light in the chest of every 
single other Jew at the time and

850
00:39:32,440 --> 00:39:35,280
all the five Kashimani brothers,
everybody who ended up fighting 

851
00:39:35,280 --> 00:39:38,360
alongside Yehuda Hamakabi again,
Matisio dies like one year into 

852
00:39:38,360 --> 00:39:40,920
the war, having no idea where 
the revolt would go. 

853
00:39:40,920 --> 00:39:42,160
Right? 
Like he actually is almost like 

854
00:39:42,160 --> 00:39:44,800
a peripheral, a peripheral 
character to the actual wars 

855
00:39:44,800 --> 00:39:46,840
that were fought. 
But he's a hero because he's the

856
00:39:46,840 --> 00:39:49,040
one who stood up and started it.
And of her, according to 

857
00:39:49,040 --> 00:39:50,880
rehearse, like that is the 
symbolism of the menorah. 

858
00:39:50,880 --> 00:39:53,720
It's the Jewish spirit that 
cannot die, not only that does 

859
00:39:53,720 --> 00:39:57,240
not die, that cannot die, that 
is alive in every single person.

860
00:39:57,840 --> 00:40:00,080
And again, rehearses like all 
sorts of that's rehearses style.

861
00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:02,440
Like he then he then parallels 
it to the different halakhals at

862
00:40:02,440 --> 00:40:05,120
the time and shows that like his
Ashkafa of what he's saying it 

863
00:40:05,120 --> 00:40:07,520
means is reflected in all the 
halakhals that you have to 

864
00:40:07,520 --> 00:40:08,640
follow. 
So I won't get into like the 

865
00:40:08,640 --> 00:40:10,640
details of it, but it's very 
compelling. 

866
00:40:11,280 --> 00:40:13,480
And that's really that's really 
like the moral. 

867
00:40:13,480 --> 00:40:16,920
The moral of the story is just 
like the Jewish spirit and what 

868
00:40:16,920 --> 00:40:21,000
that means and what that looks 
like when it's alive. 

869
00:40:21,560 --> 00:40:24,040
In the hearts of all of us, as 
it always has the potential to 

870
00:40:24,040 --> 00:40:25,880
be and that we're responsible 
towards. 

871
00:40:25,880 --> 00:40:28,040
And that's what Hanukkah is 
really teaching us. 

872
00:40:28,400 --> 00:40:32,960
So it's so it's not about God 
fighting our wars, but God's 

873
00:40:32,960 --> 00:40:37,480
voice within us inspiring us to 
fight the war. 

874
00:40:38,200 --> 00:40:40,920
Yeah, exactly. 
And us like us acknowledging 

875
00:40:40,920 --> 00:40:43,960
that, us showing that, us 
letting that take light, us 

876
00:40:43,960 --> 00:40:46,320
letting that flame grow a little
bit brighter. 

877
00:40:46,320 --> 00:40:48,720
And again, that's what he says. 
Like it, you know, the the I 

878
00:40:48,720 --> 00:40:50,440
should have had a reproach out 
here and just been able to like 

879
00:40:50,440 --> 00:40:54,040
read you the one quote. 
But he's like the flame in the 

880
00:40:54,040 --> 00:40:58,000
heart of one Jewish breast is 
enough to save the entire Jewish

881
00:40:58,000 --> 00:40:59,960
world. 
Like that's the moral of 

882
00:40:59,960 --> 00:41:01,600
Hanukkah. 
And also, like when you're 

883
00:41:01,600 --> 00:41:03,960
letting the Hanukkah menorah, 
that means like, it could be 

884
00:41:03,960 --> 00:41:05,920
you. 
And you should feel like that. 

885
00:41:05,920 --> 00:41:08,480
You should feel like if it had 
to be you, it would be you. 

886
00:41:09,400 --> 00:41:12,120
You have something. 
That alone is enough to save the

887
00:41:12,120 --> 00:41:15,040
Jews, just in your own heart. 
Maybe benci, not me. 

888
00:41:15,040 --> 00:41:16,240
I don't know. 
I'm kidding. 

889
00:41:16,760 --> 00:41:19,600
That's what you think? 
Really beautiful. 

890
00:41:19,600 --> 00:41:22,760
It's a great message, it's a 
fantastic message and it's very 

891
00:41:22,760 --> 00:41:24,920
exciting. 
You want to just. 

892
00:41:25,200 --> 00:41:28,560
Yeah, what do you hope readers 
take away from your book? 

893
00:41:30,880 --> 00:41:33,920
And also tell us maybe a little 
bit about your ideas for the 

894
00:41:33,960 --> 00:41:35,600
sequel that would be? 
Oh, that? 

895
00:41:35,680 --> 00:41:37,240
Yeah. 
Fun, fun, fun. 

896
00:41:37,960 --> 00:41:40,000
OK, So what do I hope they take 
away from the book again? 

897
00:41:40,000 --> 00:41:41,000
There's like there's a few 
things. 

898
00:41:41,000 --> 00:41:43,680
The first is is just quote UN 
quote this understanding. 

899
00:41:43,680 --> 00:41:50,000
Like I feel so grateful. 
I don't know. 

900
00:41:50,000 --> 00:41:53,080
I'm probably grateful as where 
it starts and ends just with the

901
00:41:53,080 --> 00:41:56,360
thought that when people light 
the Hanukkah candles or when 

902
00:41:56,360 --> 00:41:59,280
they say Al Hanisim again and 
again, that they have a little 

903
00:41:59,280 --> 00:42:01,920
bit of an understanding of like 
what the wars were that were 

904
00:42:01,920 --> 00:42:04,640
fought and how hard it would 
have been to show up and fight 

905
00:42:04,640 --> 00:42:06,800
those wars and how the wars were
won. 

906
00:42:06,800 --> 00:42:09,200
Which again, according to our 
first is by just like the sheer 

907
00:42:09,320 --> 00:42:11,960
blazing Jewish spirit that was 
enough to defeat the entire 

908
00:42:11,960 --> 00:42:13,920
Greek army with the help of God,
right? 

909
00:42:13,920 --> 00:42:17,560
So again, like that, that just 
like that moral and that message

910
00:42:17,560 --> 00:42:19,480
of understanding a little bit 
more about the Hanukkah time 

911
00:42:19,480 --> 00:42:21,960
period and what again, the the 
challenges that those people 

912
00:42:21,960 --> 00:42:24,120
faced and the vicarious living, 
right? 

913
00:42:24,120 --> 00:42:26,640
Like the vicarious living of 
like this is these are the 

914
00:42:26,640 --> 00:42:30,160
choices I would have had to make
had I lived then that like that,

915
00:42:30,200 --> 00:42:31,280
you knew that would have been 
enough. 

916
00:42:32,040 --> 00:42:34,720
But the truth is, again, there's
like that other layer of just, I

917
00:42:34,720 --> 00:42:38,840
really hope that the themes that
the main character struggles 

918
00:42:38,840 --> 00:42:41,680
with, which are themes of 
belonging, they're themes of 

919
00:42:41,680 --> 00:42:44,240
family, they're themes of trust,
right? 

920
00:42:44,240 --> 00:42:46,840
There's themes of, again, 
trusting his own self, trusting 

921
00:42:46,840 --> 00:42:50,440
the social situation that he's 
in, being able to trust God, 

922
00:42:50,440 --> 00:42:53,000
that God's gonna show up even in
these situations where he's 

923
00:42:53,000 --> 00:42:54,360
really not sure what's gonna 
play out. 

924
00:42:54,360 --> 00:42:57,400
And either way, he has to be OK,
which is, again, a lot of the 

925
00:42:57,400 --> 00:42:59,240
themes of what you Hamakabe 
talks about and save our 

926
00:42:59,240 --> 00:43:01,680
Makabeam, right? 
All of that just kind of like 

927
00:43:01,680 --> 00:43:07,200
the larger underlying picture of
being inspired by the 

928
00:43:07,200 --> 00:43:10,960
potentially true story of the 
heroics of what someone else had

929
00:43:10,960 --> 00:43:12,400
to go through. 
And again, heroics doesn't mean 

930
00:43:12,400 --> 00:43:14,600
like that he wins. 
It means that he struggles and 

931
00:43:14,600 --> 00:43:15,960
that he falls. 
And like again, the hero's 

932
00:43:15,960 --> 00:43:19,200
journey of just like the descent
into hell is like a huge stage 

933
00:43:19,200 --> 00:43:21,160
of that, right? 
Like and then being able to come

934
00:43:21,160 --> 00:43:23,200
out with something new and offer
it back to the world. 

935
00:43:23,440 --> 00:43:27,760
All of that like that, the 
deeper level by which really 

936
00:43:27,760 --> 00:43:32,000
engrossing yourself in the the 
hero narrative of somebody else 

937
00:43:32,760 --> 00:43:35,840
and the potential that has to 
kind of inspire our own journeys

938
00:43:35,840 --> 00:43:39,440
and our own ways. 
That's like, that's my dream, 

939
00:43:39,920 --> 00:43:41,960
right? 
Is that it it will come out as a

940
00:43:42,000 --> 00:43:45,600
hero, you know, inspired by the 
hero and not just by the 

941
00:43:45,600 --> 00:43:46,320
history. 
Incredible. 

942
00:43:47,800 --> 00:43:51,280
Incredible. 
Really. 

943
00:43:51,280 --> 00:43:55,080
And you, you put so much, you've
put so much work into it. 

944
00:43:55,800 --> 00:43:58,360
One can tell from just from from
listening to you how much 

945
00:43:58,880 --> 00:44:04,480
meticulous research, thought, 
reflection, care that you put 

946
00:44:04,480 --> 00:44:07,200
into it. 
So we really, really hope that 

947
00:44:07,200 --> 00:44:09,960
your book is a success. 
We hope that the podcast will 

948
00:44:09,960 --> 00:44:11,480
reach ears and people will buy 
it. 

949
00:44:11,480 --> 00:44:13,800
I bought the book. 
I'm waiting for it to arrive. 

950
00:44:14,040 --> 00:44:17,360
I'm excited to read it, and we 
hope that you'll be able to 

951
00:44:17,360 --> 00:44:20,960
venture off into many projects 
because we need writers like you

952
00:44:20,960 --> 00:44:22,520
in the Jewish world today. 
Absolutely. 

953
00:44:22,520 --> 00:44:25,840
And and when I'm going to read 
Al Hani Seam this year and I'm 

954
00:44:25,960 --> 00:44:29,520
I'm going to focus on the Alamel
Hamot, right, The aspect that 

955
00:44:29,520 --> 00:44:31,360
that you're trying to make us 
focus on, which I love. 

956
00:44:32,040 --> 00:44:34,120
So thank you again. 
This was amazing. 

957
00:44:34,120 --> 00:44:36,120
And could you just tell our 
audience briefly where they 

958
00:44:36,120 --> 00:44:38,880
could find you and where they 
can find your book? 

959
00:44:39,920 --> 00:44:43,280
Yeah, yeah, I'm gonna, I'm gonna
answer. 

960
00:44:43,280 --> 00:44:44,640
I'll guess, I'll answer the word
that you asked. 

961
00:44:44,640 --> 00:44:47,680
I I actually live under a rock. 
I happen to, I happen to live 

962
00:44:47,680 --> 00:44:49,600
under a rock. 
I also happen to have a Jewish 

963
00:44:49,600 --> 00:44:52,160
name that makes me sound like 
I'm pretending to be somebody 

964
00:44:52,160 --> 00:44:53,800
else. 
Like my actual name is Hannah 

965
00:44:53,800 --> 00:44:55,440
Cohen. 
Which like, I can't wait till 

966
00:44:55,440 --> 00:44:56,960
I'm at. 
I actually can't wait for a long

967
00:44:56,960 --> 00:44:58,840
time until I'm at the playground
and someone's like, what's your 

968
00:44:58,840 --> 00:44:59,720
name? 
And I'm like Hannah Cohen and 

969
00:44:59,720 --> 00:45:03,120
she's like, me too. 
And I'm gonna be like, OK, but 

970
00:45:03,120 --> 00:45:04,800
that is my name. 
So you can't find me anywhere 

971
00:45:04,800 --> 00:45:06,760
because I live under a rock and 
I have a generic Jewish name, 

972
00:45:06,760 --> 00:45:10,280
which is great because, because 
then like it has to be about the

973
00:45:10,280 --> 00:45:11,920
book and it's never gonna be 
about Hanukkah when he wrote the

974
00:45:11,920 --> 00:45:14,080
book cuz no one's gonna ever 
remember that, which is good for

975
00:45:14,080 --> 00:45:16,880
me. 
So you can't find me really 

976
00:45:16,880 --> 00:45:19,320
anywhere. 
It's not true. 

977
00:45:19,440 --> 00:45:21,520
I do have a podcast. 
I do have a history podcast, 

978
00:45:22,200 --> 00:45:25,960
which is fun where I talk. 
It's called moral leadership 

979
00:45:25,960 --> 00:45:28,040
boot camp. 
It goes to the second temple 

980
00:45:28,040 --> 00:45:31,280
period and the heroes of the 
second temple period and talks 

981
00:45:31,280 --> 00:45:34,160
about just like a, a, a lesson 
in moral leadership that you 

982
00:45:34,160 --> 00:45:37,600
could learn from those people in
the second temple time period. 

983
00:45:37,600 --> 00:45:39,520
And I'm like, I'm going to take 
it either beyond or like shift 

984
00:45:39,520 --> 00:45:42,760
into another again, more more 
about the hero's journey I think

985
00:45:42,760 --> 00:45:45,320
is where I'm going there. 
So we got to move you on again 

986
00:45:45,320 --> 00:45:47,720
then to to discuss maybe 
something from your podcast 

987
00:45:47,720 --> 00:45:49,640
that'll be very. 
What's the name of the podcast? 

988
00:45:49,760 --> 00:45:51,440
It's called moral leadership 
boot camp. 

989
00:45:51,640 --> 00:45:53,440
Moral leadership boot camp. 
Yeah. 

990
00:45:53,440 --> 00:45:56,960
And it's about like, again, just
Jewish like the the experience 

991
00:45:56,960 --> 00:46:00,640
of the actual historic figures 
and their choices and what that 

992
00:46:00,640 --> 00:46:02,600
teaches you about moral 
leadership from a Jewish. 

993
00:46:02,600 --> 00:46:03,880
That's amazing. 
Amazing. 

994
00:46:04,120 --> 00:46:06,320
That's amazing. 
You should be shying this from 

995
00:46:06,320 --> 00:46:08,080
the a rooftop. 
This is a great top. 

996
00:46:08,080 --> 00:46:12,560
This is a amazing podcast. 
So we we would love to, first of

997
00:46:12,560 --> 00:46:14,040
all, we're going to start 
listening. 

998
00:46:14,080 --> 00:46:16,040
And. 
And hopefully we can do this 

999
00:46:16,040 --> 00:46:17,200
again. 
That would be awesome. 

1000
00:46:17,200 --> 00:46:18,520
And then where can we find the 
book? 

1001
00:46:19,320 --> 00:46:21,160
So the book is in all Jewish 
bookstores. 

1002
00:46:21,280 --> 00:46:24,280
It's also on Amazon, but it has 
like a super long time before it

1003
00:46:24,280 --> 00:46:28,120
actually ships out, which like 
I'm, I'm a little sad about and 

1004
00:46:28,120 --> 00:46:30,440
feldhaim.com and like all 
Judaica place. 

1005
00:46:30,440 --> 00:46:32,640
I mean, like any, any place that
carries Jewish books will carry 

1006
00:46:32,640 --> 00:46:34,200
this. 
So it's in real life and real 

1007
00:46:34,200 --> 00:46:35,520
bookstores. 
That's the easiest way to find 

1008
00:46:35,520 --> 00:46:38,920
it. 
And it's also again on Amazon 

1009
00:46:38,920 --> 00:46:43,680
and on those other, those other 
platforms of the online sales, 

1010
00:46:43,880 --> 00:46:46,240
general sales stuff, You just 
have to wait for it to come, 

1011
00:46:46,400 --> 00:46:49,440
which is OK, It's OK, It's OK 
cuz again, it's about Hanukkah 

1012
00:46:49,440 --> 00:46:52,320
and it's awesome. 
But it's also just a great hero 

1013
00:46:52,320 --> 00:46:53,720
narrative for any day of the 
year. 

1014
00:46:53,720 --> 00:46:56,280
So I hope that people do buy it 
and enjoy it. 

1015
00:46:56,280 --> 00:47:01,840
And thank you so much for just 
like gracing me with your time 

1016
00:47:01,840 --> 00:47:06,480
and attention and really just 
engaging with the larger meta 

1017
00:47:07,040 --> 00:47:10,440
themes that we've discussed. 
It's like it's so resonant to 

1018
00:47:10,440 --> 00:47:13,280
find like fellow humans who just
care about this kind of thing. 

1019
00:47:14,040 --> 00:47:16,280
And you also just like we're 
we're all on the same same team,

1020
00:47:16,280 --> 00:47:19,160
Like we're all compelled by the 
same kind of like cultural like 

1021
00:47:19,200 --> 00:47:22,280
need to move us as the Jewish 
people, like one step, one step 

1022
00:47:22,280 --> 00:47:24,640
forward. 
So I really appreciate your your

1023
00:47:24,640 --> 00:47:26,320
time. 
Any chance of pleasure? 

1024
00:47:26,320 --> 00:47:28,360
And pleasure is ours. 
We hope to do this again. 

1025
00:47:28,360 --> 00:47:30,680
Thank you so much. 
Thanks.