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Welcome back to Mike and 
Maurice's Mind Escape. 

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Let us help you escape your 
mind. 

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None. 
All right. 

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Welcome back to Mike and 
Maurice's mind escape. 

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We have episode #294. 
We're getting close to 300. 

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Maybe we'll do something 
special. 

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We're also coming up on six 
years here these holidays, too. 

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That's crazy. 
Think about. 

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It's been that long. 
But yeah, we have a special 

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episode tonight. 
I am alive. 

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Thank you to some people sending
emails. 

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It's only been a week since our 
last show, but people knew I had

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a nasty, venomous spider bite. 
It's kind of going away. 

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And it wasn't a brown recluse, 
It was this other it was a sack 

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spider. 
Either way, this thing is 

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gnarly. 
If I put a timeline of like the 

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progression you'd throw up when 
it got to the middle when it was

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like black and necrotic. 
Yeah. 

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So all fun stuff. 
No, no, but I I, I am a lot 

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better. 
Thank you to there's a few 

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people that sent me emails and 
stuff. 

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So tonight we are going to be 
discussing The Bicameral mind 

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which is a theory and book by 
Julian James who was a 

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psychologist and like he studied
ancient psychology too. 

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And I think what was this 
written in 69, 70? 

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76 76 OK, but he started 
researching it, I think late 60s

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I believe. 
Totally. 

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Yeah, it took him a long time. 
But yeah, so we're going to 

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discuss all that special guest 
tonight. 

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Welcome back on the show. 
It's been years. 

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Andrew Tischler. 
If you don't know Andrew, you 

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can go back and listen to our 
episodes with him. 

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We did, I believe one on Rudolf 
Steiner and I think one on just 

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philosophy in general, like 
Plato, Socrates. 

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That one got kind of screwed up 
though, so if you go back and 

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listen to that, there might be 
like a doubling of my voice, 

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which sounds terrible, so. 
Yeah, we did Tom Campbell and we

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did the Dunning Kruger. 
I forgot we did that many too. 

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We've done, I guess we have 
done. 

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I thought we did like two or 
three, but we must have done 

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like four. 
Yeah, we did do Tom Campbell's 

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theory of everything. 
Those fans don't like me because

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I always point out the lack of 
inclusion of just at least 

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having psychedelics in that 
pantheon of stuff he talks about

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in his book. 
His his followers don't like 

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that. 
But but yeah, those were great 

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episodes actually. 
And the Dunning Kruger one I 

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thought was great too. 
That was before a lot of you 

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hear people talk about all the 
time. 

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Now that was actually, people 
weren't really talking about it 

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that much back then. 
But Oh yeah man, it's good to 

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have you back on if you don't 
know who Andrew is to. 

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He is a very sick, very heady 
glass blower. 

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You can check him out at a 
Tischler glass on Instagram. 

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You won't be able to really see 
it, but I have my sweet terp 

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marble here and here I'll pull 
up a couple pictures real quick 

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too of some marbles that he 
blew. 

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Again, Hand blown glass. 
Look at this beauty. 

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Do you know this one's for sale 
right now? 

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Yeah, that one I have on my 
website. 

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So, OK, what's your website? 
You said it. 

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A tishular glass. 
OK, gotcha. 

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And then this beauty too. 
I love your fractal work. 

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That's actually, it's two shots 
of the same marble. 

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So that's a oh, that's the back 
end of it. 

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Yeah. 
It's oh, OK Gotcha. 

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Gotcha. 
Oh, I see. 

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I see. 
I see. 

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I see. 
Yeah, man. 

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Yeah, sick. 
Thank you for. 

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Showing that and can I take a 
second to say thank you for 

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having me on and Congrats on 294
episodes and all the success. 

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It's really cool. 
Thanks man. 

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Yeah, I appreciate it. 
And yeah, we'll have many more 

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to come as things evolving as as
we are. 

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So yeah, I don't, I don't know, 
but yeah, so go check out 

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Andrew's stuff. 
I highly recommend it if you 

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like functional glass, even non 
functional. 

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I mean, I guess you could use 
those marbles for anything, not 

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just TERP sets. 
But yeah, that's that's what I'm

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using them for anyways. 
So we're going to talk about the

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bicameral. 
Mind you and I used to go back 

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and forth a lot more, you know 
back in the day. 

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We've obviously things come up, 
life happens. 

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But we, you know, you'll send 
me, you used to send me some 

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interesting stuff to look into. 
I would check that out. 

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I tell you about some stuff and 
yeah, dude, some of the actually

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this stuff that you sent me is 
stuff that I've really gone deep

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into and I I can actually, I can
confidently say that you made me

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reassess philosophy. 
So I went back and you were part

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of the catalyst too, of, you 
know, kind of the show taking 

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that kind of a turn, if you 
will. 

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But I think just having those 
tools is huge. 

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But without further ado, let's 
get into this thing, the 

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bicameral mind. 
You said you were reading it. 

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I'm like, I got to check this 
out. 

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People have been telling me to 
check out this book for years 

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and this theory. 
I kind of had an idea of what it

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was, but why don't you give me a
little bit of a summary from 

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your reading it and looking into
it and everything? 

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Yeah, sure. 
So I I do think he spent, like 

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you said, a decade or two 
thinking about consciousness. 

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And I think he mentions in the 
book like spending years 

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following dead end trails before
he finally hit upon this theory 

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that he came up with. 
He was also a linguist, so he 

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studied origin of language, I 
think, probably with like the 

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intention. 
Or like with the insight that it

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may have something to do with 
consciousness. 

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So him knowing so much about 
early language, I think really 

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helped him develop the theory 
the way he did. 

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But yeah, questions about 
consciousness. 

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And I really like the way he 
breaks down the different views 

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that we currently have, is that 
it's either something that is 

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like a pan psychism, that the 
whole universe is conscious, 

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which. 
You know, we can definitely get 

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into that as we get into the 
meaty stuff. 

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But, you know, the consciousness
start at the beginning, at The 

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Big Bang, or did it start with, 
you know, complicated matter, or

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did it start with the first 
single cell, or is it a complex 

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nervous system? 
And to all of our surprise, his 

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conclusion was actually that 
none of those things are the 

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real catalyst and that actually 
language helped give rise to the

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modern kind of consciousness 
that we have. 

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Well, let's, let's stop. 
I want to hold you up right 

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there because we've talked about
that on the show. 

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Massive, massive point. 
I don't think people really 

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think about it that much, but 
even think about cultures and 

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and you know, just different 
languages and how people 

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interact within those cultures 
via their own language. 

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And there's some languages that 
can't even, they don't even have

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descriptions or words for things
that other cultures do and stuff

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like that. 
So it has a massive influence on

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consciousness, whether it is the
catalyst that changed it along, 

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kind of like what you're saying 
or not. 

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I think that it's it's at least 
one of the contributing factors 

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in my opinion. 
I totally agree. 

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Yeah. 
That's well said. 

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Yeah. 
So he gets into this thing. 

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So we've talked a lot about on 
the show about gods. 

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Where are these gods? 
Where did they go? 

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Who were, you know, like where 
was this coming from? 

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So why don't you explain that 
aspect of it? 

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Because I think that that's 
obviously the most important 

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point or you know, part of the 
theory. 

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Yeah. 
So he picks up the gods kind of 

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in the middle of his theory, and
he's trying to well, OK. 

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So I think the origin of the 
gods would have been like a a 

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tribal leader. 
It's like the first God was like

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a king of Ur that they find 
buried with, you know, certain 

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things. 
So when the, you know, like if 

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you imagine ancient hominids and
tribal communities listening to 

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the leader dictating and you 
know where the leader goes, 

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everyone follows and there's 
like he, he kind of describes 

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just a chain of events that 
occur that instead of hearing 

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the leader's voice. 
When he's alive, you you know 

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that he argues that you continue
to hear the leader's voice after

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he dies, and that this leader's 
voice transforms into the voice 

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of not just a human leader, but 
like a leader on high. 

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And all of a sudden now there's 
like this transition from a 

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living human God to like, God 
removed. 

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And would you think about that 
part too, 'cause I thought that 

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was kind of weird when they were
talking about how people used 

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to, like, dress and sit dead 
people at the table and like, so

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like that. 
What you're saying is kind of 

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the idea that even when they 
die, they still hear that voice,

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so they take care of the body as
if it's still alive, which was 

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kind of a weird thing to think 
about. 

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Yeah, because they continue to 
hallucinate. 

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So you know, the whole one of 
the whole idea of that stage is 

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that they are not introspecting 
moment to moment about what to 

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go do that. 
If they are behaving or acting 

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in any way, it's as a result of 
these hallucinated voices, of 

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the leader telling them what to 
do. 

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And it's just that these, these 
hallucinated voices are ever 

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present, you know, for these, 
for this bicameral people, you 

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know, it's the source of their 
volition and action. 

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Yeah, to your point, to the the 
father, the archetypes, the 

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father, the mother, gods, 
goddesses, yeah. 

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And what does he call it? 
He calls them like noble cogs or

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noble automaton, something like 
that, where they're just like 

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they have like good intentions 
of being a good human being. 

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However, they don't have, like 
you just said, like 

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introspection or something like 
that. 

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I I think like you know, as a a 
metaphor like a beehive or an 

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Ant colony, you know, where. 
Why are they so consistent? 

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Why are they so dedicated to the
queen and to the colony? 

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And it's because, like radio 
transmitters, they're constantly

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getting signals from the queen 
herself. 

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You know, it's a really kind of 
a 1 to 1 metaphor for the 

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bicameral society that these, 
like, rulers are able to just 

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basically transmit, like, 
telepathically, you know? 

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Yeah. 
Almost like instinctual 

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commands. 
Yeah. 

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So it's like. 
They're they're moral to a fault

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because the volition isn't there
to take them. 

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Yeah, didn't it? 
Doesn't it feel like it just it 

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answers too many questions? 
Like it just fits. 

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It's almost like, you know, he's
got a board and all the strings 

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of all the mysteries surrounding
consciousness and origins and 

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stuff, just like it fits, 
everything fits into place. 

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So that's why this is a 
interesting theory and why you 

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might have people, like, trying 
poke holes in it. 

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But there's not like a oh, 
that's pseudoscience or anything

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like that, 'cause it, you really
can't refute it. 

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In a way, even people like 
Daniel Dennett, who's like a 

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hardcore materialist, says it's 
like one of the bigger 

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inspirations for the way he 
thinks about consciousness and 

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stuff like that, so. 
I didn't realize that. 

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That's awesome. 
Yeah. 

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Yeah, his just the analysis on 
consciousness and what it isn't 

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and what it is. 
I think is one of the reasons I 

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suggested it to you. 
Like given his theory or not, 

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just the being, like you said, 
having that in your toolbox is 

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pretty powerful. 
Yeah, I mean, again, I've been 

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putting it off. 
I don't know why I did, but 

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maybe it's things, you know, I 
think sometimes sometimes that 

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stuff happens for a reason, like
you're just into something else 

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or something else is going on 
and then it hits you at the 

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right time and place. 
Yeah. 

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IA friend of mine that has also 
read the book, we like to joke 

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that James was a academic 
materialist scholar that 

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accidentally stumbled upon an 
esoteric truth about the world. 

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So his methodology is strictly 
evolutionary materialist, which 

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is you know, if you read that in
the in the book, he's not not 

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broaching the subject of what 
are the gods except outside of 

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00:13:52,080 --> 00:13:57,000
just neurological kind of stuff.
But we, you know, we like to. 

227
00:13:57,920 --> 00:14:00,920
I I don't think it's a too far 
vote. 

228
00:14:01,120 --> 00:14:04,920
You can use James's theories and
have them inform more spiritual 

229
00:14:04,960 --> 00:14:07,720
worldviews and they just it 
still fits. 

230
00:14:07,720 --> 00:14:09,440
Like you're saying it fits too 
well. 

231
00:14:10,720 --> 00:14:13,520
So I think he he's on to 
something, but there's 

232
00:14:13,520 --> 00:14:16,600
definitely more to the story too
than is in his books, you know? 

233
00:14:18,080 --> 00:14:23,960
Yeah, absolutely. 
The one of the interesting 

234
00:14:23,960 --> 00:14:30,240
things to me is he actually uses
ancient Greece like a lot is 

235
00:14:30,240 --> 00:14:32,840
like the backbone the way he 
describes it. 

236
00:14:32,840 --> 00:14:38,040
So he's talking about, like, if 
you look at, like Solon's 

237
00:14:38,040 --> 00:14:42,320
writing, who Solon is one of the
great, you know, 7 sages of 

238
00:14:42,320 --> 00:14:47,440
ancient Greece, and he's saying 
he's he's like one of the first 

239
00:14:47,440 --> 00:14:49,560
conscious or introspective 
people. 

240
00:14:49,880 --> 00:14:52,600
And then you have, like Thales, 
the first philosophy natural 

241
00:14:52,600 --> 00:14:54,680
philosopher. 
Oh, there's other explanations 

242
00:14:54,680 --> 00:14:57,640
then these weird voices we've 
been hearing forever kind of a 

243
00:14:57,640 --> 00:15:03,040
thing. 
Now thinking about that, though,

244
00:15:06,560 --> 00:15:10,640
do you think that 'cause there's
a lot of stuff 'cause like that 

245
00:15:10,640 --> 00:15:14,280
even incorporates the 
schizophrenia aspect of this, 

246
00:15:14,280 --> 00:15:19,240
which is he's saying that that 
is, or that was like some part 

247
00:15:19,240 --> 00:15:22,840
of it, or on some level most 
people had it or something like 

248
00:15:22,840 --> 00:15:25,560
that was the confusing part to 
me is like, is that kind of the 

249
00:15:25,560 --> 00:15:29,360
vibe you got from that or? 
Well, what he noticed is that 

250
00:15:29,360 --> 00:15:35,000
the behavior and like internal 
experience of schizophrenics is 

251
00:15:35,000 --> 00:15:37,720
he. 
He calls it like a vestige, 

252
00:15:37,800 --> 00:15:39,920
which is a fancy word for like a
leftover. 

253
00:15:40,800 --> 00:15:45,240
So the fact that by the fact 
that schizophrenics here 

254
00:15:45,560 --> 00:15:51,600
interact with and act on the 
voices in their heads told him 

255
00:15:51,600 --> 00:15:55,360
that that is something that's 
plausible in human nature, you 

256
00:15:55,360 --> 00:15:57,520
know, it's it's it's not 
something we have to imagine 

257
00:15:57,520 --> 00:15:59,120
because we have examples of it 
now. 

258
00:15:59,480 --> 00:16:02,480
And, you know, he talks about 
how even average people 

259
00:16:02,920 --> 00:16:05,960
experience voices in like a sort
of one to three, one to four 

260
00:16:05,960 --> 00:16:08,400
ratio. 
But most people don't report 

261
00:16:08,400 --> 00:16:10,840
them. 
But like stories of housewives 

262
00:16:10,840 --> 00:16:13,520
that have conversations with 
their dead mothers or 

263
00:16:13,520 --> 00:16:16,800
grandmothers as a as a matter of
course every morning, but just 

264
00:16:16,800 --> 00:16:18,880
wouldn't report it to the 
husband because of who would 

265
00:16:18,880 --> 00:16:20,400
believe them. 
But when they're asked about it,

266
00:16:20,400 --> 00:16:22,160
they all these stories come out.
So. 

267
00:16:22,160 --> 00:16:25,960
So schizophrenia for him was 
like a proof that this is a 

268
00:16:25,960 --> 00:16:28,560
possible thing, that human 
beings have this relationship 

269
00:16:28,560 --> 00:16:31,200
with a voice in their head and 
that the brain can produce 

270
00:16:31,200 --> 00:16:34,280
voices and audio hallucinations 
and visual hallucinations. 

271
00:16:34,280 --> 00:16:38,840
And so, yeah, they they wouldn't
be the ball by camera. 

272
00:16:39,280 --> 00:16:42,080
Yeah, go ahead. 
No, I was just going to say, I 

273
00:16:42,080 --> 00:16:45,080
think that even today, we still 
don't really understand the 

274
00:16:45,080 --> 00:16:48,760
mechanisms that drive. 
Like there's different theories,

275
00:16:48,760 --> 00:16:53,320
like gut Biome stuff. 
I've heard they've even tested. 

276
00:16:53,320 --> 00:16:55,200
I I think Rick Straussman was 
talking about how they were 

277
00:16:55,200 --> 00:16:59,040
testing urine, looking for 
dimethyltryptamine to see if 

278
00:16:59,040 --> 00:17:02,200
that might like overproduction 
in the brain or something like 

279
00:17:02,200 --> 00:17:05,200
that might have caused something
along those lines. 

280
00:17:05,200 --> 00:17:07,680
Who knows? 
It could still be something, you

281
00:17:07,680 --> 00:17:10,079
know, endogenous or 
neurochemical or something like 

282
00:17:10,079 --> 00:17:15,280
that, but yeah. 
I we should get into this too. 

283
00:17:15,280 --> 00:17:17,960
But there is a litany of other 
authors and, you know, 

284
00:17:17,960 --> 00:17:25,480
philosophers who who are, yeah, 
parroting or mimicking James's 

285
00:17:25,480 --> 00:17:27,920
ideas without even knowing it a 
lot of the time coming up with 

286
00:17:27,920 --> 00:17:31,400
it on their own. 
Oh, that point lost my point. 

287
00:17:33,480 --> 00:17:35,720
Sorry, yeah, I lost my point. 
But yeah, we'll we'll get into 

288
00:17:35,720 --> 00:17:38,600
the list of other people too 
that are substantiating this, 

289
00:17:38,600 --> 00:17:40,800
this theory. 
That's that's pretty exciting, 

290
00:17:41,040 --> 00:17:43,560
yeah. 
So again, you can look into it 

291
00:17:43,560 --> 00:17:46,560
and it seems like it's got like 
a weird reception where it's got

292
00:17:46,560 --> 00:17:51,320
like a cult following kind of. 
And it also, like you said, has 

293
00:17:51,320 --> 00:17:55,280
some esoteric aspects to it. 
But then, even the more 

294
00:17:55,280 --> 00:17:57,960
skeptical people don't. 
They're not, like, attacking it 

295
00:17:57,960 --> 00:17:59,640
like they would something else. 
You. 

296
00:18:00,040 --> 00:18:02,120
Know you reminded me that was 
what I was going to say is. 

297
00:18:03,560 --> 00:18:06,360
Yeah, they're they're they're 
desperately searching to a 

298
00:18:06,360 --> 00:18:11,360
materialist neurological or some
sort of biological foundation 

299
00:18:11,520 --> 00:18:15,200
for for these things. 
But what James is saying is that

300
00:18:15,200 --> 00:18:20,000
consciousness evolved not just 
with the human nervous system or

301
00:18:20,440 --> 00:18:24,040
you know, with our our DNA or 
our brains, because our brains 

302
00:18:24,040 --> 00:18:27,240
were already in place in these 
pre bicameral ages. 

303
00:18:27,560 --> 00:18:30,120
That consciousness is really 
this language thing. 

304
00:18:30,680 --> 00:18:33,720
And then sorry it's a long way 
around, but to also say that you

305
00:18:33,720 --> 00:18:38,040
know, someone like Rudolf 
Steiner will talk about etheric 

306
00:18:38,120 --> 00:18:42,960
and astral bodies, other non 
physical systems that play into 

307
00:18:42,960 --> 00:18:46,920
our consciousness that these 
scientists aren't studying don't

308
00:18:46,920 --> 00:18:49,440
have an idea about. 
So sometimes I wonder in 

309
00:18:49,440 --> 00:18:54,320
conjecture if if they're not 
going to find material causes 

310
00:18:54,320 --> 00:18:57,360
for this stuff, but if we. 
More apt to find it in these 

311
00:18:57,680 --> 00:19:00,320
more subtle bodies, which we 
don't really have science for 

312
00:19:00,320 --> 00:19:03,360
yet. 
Yeah, I mean, absolutely. 

313
00:19:03,360 --> 00:19:07,320
So like, I will say that after 
reading this book, like I just 

314
00:19:07,320 --> 00:19:11,120
said, it's like, very romantic 
to, like, think about it in that

315
00:19:11,120 --> 00:19:15,160
way. 
However, I still favor more of, 

316
00:19:15,160 --> 00:19:21,000
like, the possible entheogenuse 
with ritual, with more of a 

317
00:19:21,000 --> 00:19:23,200
spiritual side of things. 
You know what I'm saying? 

318
00:19:23,200 --> 00:19:26,760
Like, I'm not, I'm not a 
bicameral mind endorser. 

319
00:19:26,760 --> 00:19:30,200
Now I just think that it's a 
really interesting way to look 

320
00:19:30,200 --> 00:19:34,280
at, you know, 'cause, 'cause if 
you think about it, it's not, 

321
00:19:34,280 --> 00:19:36,840
was it? 
The collapse of the Bronze Age 

322
00:19:36,840 --> 00:19:39,840
is when he's talking about, like
I said, Solon, one of the first 

323
00:19:39,840 --> 00:19:42,720
people. 
And then even if you look at So 

324
00:19:44,560 --> 00:19:48,600
what we know about Socrates, we 
know from two people, from 

325
00:19:48,600 --> 00:19:55,680
Plato, from the dialogues and 
from Xenophon. 

326
00:19:56,920 --> 00:20:03,200
So I think Xenophon describes 
him as just merely a man. 

327
00:20:03,600 --> 00:20:07,200
So, like, how could a great man 
be described as merely a man? 

328
00:20:07,680 --> 00:20:11,360
Unless Xenophon maybe, you know,
had a little bit of the 

329
00:20:11,360 --> 00:20:14,680
bicameral thing still kicking 
around in there, you know? 

330
00:20:15,080 --> 00:20:15,920
Sure, Absolutely. 
Yeah. 

331
00:20:15,960 --> 00:20:16,360
Yeah. 
Yeah. 

332
00:20:17,600 --> 00:20:18,960
I don't know. 
Something to think about. 

333
00:20:19,600 --> 00:20:20,120
Absolutely. 
Yeah. 

334
00:20:20,120 --> 00:20:21,040
I follow. 
Yeah. 

335
00:20:25,080 --> 00:20:28,400
What was something in the book, 
though, that like, really 

336
00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:34,120
shocked you Because like the 
fact that he used the Iliad and 

337
00:20:34,120 --> 00:20:37,600
then, OK, so in the Iliad he's 
saying that these are all 

338
00:20:37,600 --> 00:20:40,480
bicameral minds. 
The gods are telling them what 

339
00:20:40,480 --> 00:20:42,440
to do. 
They're talking about thumos and

340
00:20:42,440 --> 00:20:46,720
noose. 
Thumos is like your spirit or 

341
00:20:46,720 --> 00:20:49,080
like, it's described in 
different ways. 

342
00:20:49,080 --> 00:20:52,400
So it's kind of difficult to 
describe, but noose is like. 

343
00:20:53,240 --> 00:20:56,320
Your intelligence or your 
intellect or whatever. 

344
00:20:57,240 --> 00:21:00,120
But he talks about all these old
words used and, you know, so he 

345
00:21:00,280 --> 00:21:03,600
in the Iliad, they're all these 
bicameral minds. 

346
00:21:03,600 --> 00:21:06,560
And then when you get to the 
Odyssey, Odysseus has the 

347
00:21:06,560 --> 00:21:10,640
ability to use introspection and
manipulate and trickster. 

348
00:21:10,800 --> 00:21:13,280
You know, these, what are they 
called? 

349
00:21:13,280 --> 00:21:19,680
Not sea wenches, sirens. 
And yeah, so yeah, the archetype

350
00:21:19,680 --> 00:21:24,080
of a of a conniving lot, like 
problem solving, right? 

351
00:21:24,360 --> 00:21:27,160
Which is totally not what you 
find in the Iliad, according to 

352
00:21:27,160 --> 00:21:30,200
Jane's, yeah. 
So, but what did you did you 

353
00:21:30,200 --> 00:21:32,480
find that 'cause that was 
actually really shocking to me, 

354
00:21:32,480 --> 00:21:34,920
because I've read those before 
and I didn't even really think 

355
00:21:34,920 --> 00:21:36,400
about that at all when I read 
them. 

356
00:21:36,400 --> 00:21:37,560
Right. 
You're just thinking it's like 

357
00:21:37,560 --> 00:21:41,400
some old timey way of talking. 
Totally. 

358
00:21:41,400 --> 00:21:47,240
So I I do think, like, yeah, his
ability to bring logic or just a

359
00:21:47,240 --> 00:21:51,320
a new understanding that's 
plausible to all of these epic 

360
00:21:51,400 --> 00:21:57,360
poems and and phrases we find in
ancient texts that we either 

361
00:21:57,360 --> 00:22:01,040
mistranslate or just don't have,
you know, any experience with. 

362
00:22:01,040 --> 00:22:04,880
We don't have that experience. 
So we paced over our modern 

363
00:22:04,880 --> 00:22:07,200
experience because why? 
How could we know that there's 

364
00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:10,480
something different? 
But once you see it, yeah, 

365
00:22:11,680 --> 00:22:15,680
everything is, you know, the the
water told him to do this and 

366
00:22:15,680 --> 00:22:18,800
this guy told him to do that. 
And his God has told him to go. 

367
00:22:18,800 --> 00:22:23,240
And yeah, it's like, wow, yeah. 
He does such a beautiful job. 

368
00:22:23,240 --> 00:22:25,600
Like there's like four or five 
more words that you, you know, 

369
00:22:25,680 --> 00:22:28,200
you that he breaks down like 
this is not consciousness. 

370
00:22:28,200 --> 00:22:29,520
It's not consciousness. 
Yeah. 

371
00:22:31,040 --> 00:22:32,400
Yeah. 
And then again, some of those 

372
00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:35,800
words all then get used as like 
body parts too. 

373
00:22:35,800 --> 00:22:41,720
So it gets get like really weird
to the way it's used real quick.

374
00:22:42,320 --> 00:22:44,120
My friend is also familiar with 
this. 

375
00:22:44,120 --> 00:22:46,800
She's, she's always pointing out
that like if you read the Bible 

376
00:22:47,400 --> 00:22:50,680
you'll in the earlier bits, you 
always, it'll start with like 

377
00:22:50,800 --> 00:22:54,880
hear my voice, listen to my, you
know, listen to me, hear what I 

378
00:22:54,880 --> 00:22:59,360
have to say, like hear hear me. 
And it's like that's that's a 

379
00:22:59,360 --> 00:23:02,080
bicameral thing. 
Like it's, you know, the 

380
00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:04,600
auditory hallucination will 
become your volition. 

381
00:23:04,800 --> 00:23:08,000
Do do listen to the voice and do
as it tells you like you. 

382
00:23:08,080 --> 00:23:11,880
You start to see the bicameral 
idea in all of these old. 

383
00:23:13,040 --> 00:23:15,240
Yeah. 
So do you think the catalyst 

384
00:23:15,240 --> 00:23:20,880
would have been like a Solon or 
somebody being like kind of what

385
00:23:20,880 --> 00:23:23,800
you said, like you, you hear the
voice and instead of thinking, 

386
00:23:24,160 --> 00:23:27,480
oh, I just, I do whatever this 
thing's telling me to do, kind 

387
00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:34,840
of like it says. 
But maybe at that point Solon 

388
00:23:34,840 --> 00:23:39,320
realized, oh, this is just my 
internal. 

389
00:23:39,840 --> 00:23:44,240
You know, theatre or whatever, I
don't have to do that. 

390
00:23:44,320 --> 00:23:48,880
I have the choice or free will 
to do or not do that, you know. 

391
00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:51,600
And then that's not, that's what
we have now, which is like, 

392
00:23:51,880 --> 00:23:55,000
yeah, we have our inner voice 
and our, you know, if you want 

393
00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:58,600
to say you're hypothetical Angel
and devil on your shoulder, we 

394
00:23:58,600 --> 00:24:01,240
have those. 
And maybe some people don't 

395
00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:02,640
actually. 
I think that there is some sort 

396
00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:05,440
of. 
I don't know what it's called, 

397
00:24:05,600 --> 00:24:08,560
but I feel like there is 
something I've read where people

398
00:24:08,560 --> 00:24:10,640
don't have that. 
Introspection. 

399
00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:12,360
That would be interesting. 
Now I got to look into that 

400
00:24:12,360 --> 00:24:14,640
because I think that that might 
work exactly. 

401
00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:21,840
So this is where like I would 
enter, enter a guy named 

402
00:24:21,840 --> 00:24:24,120
Marshall Mcluhan. 
Are you familiar with Mcluhan? 

403
00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:29,240
You know, so his whole idea is 
like the extensions of man and 

404
00:24:29,240 --> 00:24:32,920
technology, extending our body 
in different ways. 

405
00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:36,320
So like the telephone extends 
our vote, our voice, you know, 

406
00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:40,440
the camera extends our eyes, the
tire extends our feet, you know,

407
00:24:40,440 --> 00:24:42,360
so the road extends, you know 
everything. 

408
00:24:42,640 --> 00:24:44,560
All of these different 
technologies extend part of our 

409
00:24:44,560 --> 00:24:48,240
body. 
But so he's talking about how 

410
00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:52,280
the media, you know, his big 
thing, the medium is the 

411
00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:55,080
message. 
So he was saying it's not about 

412
00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:57,320
what you put in a newspaper or 
book. 

413
00:24:57,360 --> 00:25:01,840
It's the fact that the book is 
the dominant media that matters.

414
00:25:01,840 --> 00:25:03,240
It's not what you put on 
television. 

415
00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:05,080
It's that the people are 
watching television in the 

416
00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:09,160
society that makes a difference.
So what I hear from that is, and

417
00:25:09,160 --> 00:25:11,840
what what James even points out 
is that people that are taught 

418
00:25:11,840 --> 00:25:16,640
to read and write, that cancels 
out bicameralism. 

419
00:25:17,160 --> 00:25:19,880
So that's a first important 
step. 

420
00:25:19,880 --> 00:25:23,000
And like you're saying, so on 
was one of just the only 

421
00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:27,280
literate people around. 
And because he was literate, 

422
00:25:27,360 --> 00:25:30,000
there was a better chance that 
he was not having the bicameral 

423
00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:32,920
experience and that he was the 
first one to write about his 

424
00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:36,280
introspection. 
But prior to learning to read 

425
00:25:36,280 --> 00:25:40,320
and write, you know, James talks
about having to deduce, OK, 

426
00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:43,440
yeah, the big, the big thing 
that stops the bicameralism and 

427
00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:49,080
starts modern consciousness is 
the chaos of meeting other 

428
00:25:49,080 --> 00:25:51,800
societies, seeing people 
behaving in other ways, 

429
00:25:51,800 --> 00:25:55,560
listening to other gods and then
warring when when there was no 

430
00:25:55,560 --> 00:25:57,560
more peace. 
When societies are collapsing 

431
00:25:57,560 --> 00:26:00,920
and you're exposed to all this 
novelty and your, your, your 

432
00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:04,920
gods can't get you through it. 
And he said that you there's a 

433
00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:10,840
chance that the first first we 
had to assume that the other 

434
00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:14,240
person that was like a part of 
some other society, that maybe 

435
00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:17,600
they're conscious, maybe there's
an eye in them. 

436
00:26:18,480 --> 00:26:20,520
That's why they're so different 
from me. 

437
00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:23,840
And if they have an eye in them,
maybe I have an eye in me too. 

438
00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:27,720
And he talks about maybe the 
first people to wake up woke up 

439
00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:29,640
because they thought someone 
else was conscious. 

440
00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:32,280
And it almost, like, spurred 
them to consciousness, which is 

441
00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:35,240
a funny idea. 
It kind of turns, I forget who's

442
00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:37,880
the psychologist that said like 
the first, the mirror stage. 

443
00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:41,400
Like Lacan, I think like you 
become conscious by recognizing 

444
00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:43,040
yourself. 
Well, Jane says it's actually 

445
00:26:43,040 --> 00:26:44,200
the opposite. 
You become conscious by 

446
00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:47,360
recognizing someone else with 
some, with some other gods that 

447
00:26:47,360 --> 00:26:49,360
are doing their own thing that 
doesn't match with what you're 

448
00:26:49,360 --> 00:26:52,560
doing. 
So I think Solon must have had 

449
00:26:52,840 --> 00:26:57,760
parents that saw the collapse of
societies, passed on, you know, 

450
00:26:57,760 --> 00:27:01,200
a slightly less bicameral thing.
And then when he was educated 

451
00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:03,680
and taught to read and write 
that, that that type of 

452
00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:06,360
education just cancels out 
bicameralism. 

453
00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:10,200
And the last point I'll make is 
that's the same reason Plato was

454
00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:15,520
against poets in his Republic. 
He wanted to ban poetry, and 

455
00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:19,640
it's because poets put people 
into trances and they have 

456
00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:22,880
bicameral experiences. 
And he wanted people not to have

457
00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:25,920
not to learn from the oral 
tradition, but learn from the 

458
00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:27,960
written tradition. 
So yeah, that's what they were 

459
00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:31,040
mentioning, right? 
Like the poems with the music 

460
00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:36,160
and these like, like like they 
would use it as a like a system 

461
00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:38,440
of remembering or something like
that. 

462
00:27:38,840 --> 00:27:41,880
I mean it was very psychedelic. 
They would go into the the poet,

463
00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:44,960
the reciters would go into a 
trance and the gods would write 

464
00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:47,360
recite to them and they'd repeat
it and the listeners would go 

465
00:27:47,360 --> 00:27:51,200
into a trance and they would 
become the figures in the story.

466
00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:53,600
They'd have the psychedelic, 
like you said, almost 

467
00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:56,880
entheogenic where they they 
become the hero that the that 

468
00:27:56,880 --> 00:27:59,760
the reciter is talking about. 
And then you know, they snap out

469
00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:02,440
of it when it ends and they go, 
Oh my gosh, like, yeah. 

470
00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:05,040
So that's that's this idea of 
bicameralism that. 

471
00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:08,440
One critique I would have of of 
this whole theory? 

472
00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:14,240
Psychedelics 'cause people did. 
Psychedelics people did 

473
00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:17,840
entheogens. 
You would be hard pressed to 

474
00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:22,200
convince me that somebody's not 
introspective from one of these 

475
00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:25,280
experiences or people. 
Like for instance, if you did 

476
00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:28,320
the Lucidian mysteries everybody
has to partake in at once in 

477
00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:33,040
their life, Everybody 
experiences the Kekian, so. 

478
00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:38,000
That in itself would be like 
transferring from bicameral mind

479
00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:41,640
into some sort of conscious 
awareness state. 

480
00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:46,040
Again, I'm not this, I'm not 
saying I'm this would debunk his

481
00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:47,680
theory. 
I'm just pointing out that, like

482
00:28:47,680 --> 00:28:51,120
anybody who had that experience 
in the ancient world, I think 

483
00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:54,840
would have been ousted from the 
bicameral mind. 

484
00:28:55,200 --> 00:28:58,680
I I'm glad you brought that up 
because it dovetails with like 

485
00:28:58,680 --> 00:29:01,720
my, you know, when I think about
and compare it with Rudolf 

486
00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:05,280
Steiner. 
So again James, you know his 

487
00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:09,240
method is to work within 
academia to use academic 

488
00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:12,000
methodology, publish in peer 
reviewed journals. 

489
00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:15,520
So there was a severe limit to 
how much he could conjecture and

490
00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:17,920
to what kind of information he 
could use in these theories. 

491
00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:20,960
And I think he is a person 
accepted those limitations, but 

492
00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:23,880
we don't have to. 
And so Steiner, you know, will 

493
00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:26,680
talk about, just as you're 
saying, mystery schools and 

494
00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:29,720
initiations. 
And what I would think is that 

495
00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:33,320
yes, the collapse of 
civilizations changed 

496
00:29:33,320 --> 00:29:36,040
consciousness on a large scale. 
But what Steiner is saying that 

497
00:29:36,040 --> 00:29:39,200
on a small scale and on a much 
more intentional scale, these 

498
00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:41,920
mystery schools are initiating 
people. 

499
00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:44,920
And Steiner literally goes as 
far as saying this, that people 

500
00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:47,600
in ancient mystery circles were 
experiencing a kind of 

501
00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:50,360
consciousness that everyone in 
the future would experience. 

502
00:29:50,840 --> 00:29:53,400
That initiation is initiation 
into a new kind of 

503
00:29:53,400 --> 00:29:55,360
consciousness. 
So if you were talking about a 

504
00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:59,120
bicameral age, these people are 
being initiated into our modern 

505
00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:03,320
consciousness and so so on may 
have been an initiate and it was

506
00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:07,240
through these initiating 
processes with psychedelics or 

507
00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:10,520
meditation or other things that 
are actually bringing people out

508
00:30:10,520 --> 00:30:12,360
of bicameralism, just as you're 
saying. 

509
00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:16,720
And so James isn't tracing that 
lineage because it's harder with

510
00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:20,720
his methodology, but we can and 
we can say that perhaps it 

511
00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:24,040
wasn't just this, the collapse, 
but it was these secret schools 

512
00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:26,920
that were intending to bring a 
new type of consciousness as a 

513
00:30:26,920 --> 00:30:28,720
result of their whole spiritual 
worldview. 

514
00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:31,400
I think you definitely said it. 
Well, yeah, I agree. 

515
00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:34,480
I just want to point out a great
books. 

516
00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:36,600
We're talking about the collapse
of the Bronze Age. 

517
00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:41,720
There's a book called 1177 BC by
Eric Klein. 

518
00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:44,400
Now he's an academic. 
It's kind of like a mainstream 

519
00:30:44,720 --> 00:30:49,720
book, but it's a really, look, 
whatever you like about history,

520
00:30:50,040 --> 00:30:53,280
you have to know what scientists
and archaeologists are saying. 

521
00:30:53,280 --> 00:30:55,400
So. 
Even if you don't believe it, 

522
00:30:55,400 --> 00:30:57,920
you should know where they stand
so you can have a conversation 

523
00:30:57,920 --> 00:31:01,560
with them about it. 
But that book is unbelievable to

524
00:31:01,560 --> 00:31:06,160
tell you exactly what was going 
on in 1177 BC, which is the 

525
00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:09,880
collapse of a lot of shit. 
So that's and again, you can 

526
00:31:09,880 --> 00:31:12,760
read it with the bicameral 
theory in mind and they start to

527
00:31:12,760 --> 00:31:14,200
bounce back. 
I I, I made a note. 

528
00:31:14,200 --> 00:31:18,600
I'll definitely check it out. 
And then, yeah, just just for 

529
00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:22,920
just to get it out of my head, 
like, well, yeah, do you mind me

530
00:31:22,920 --> 00:31:26,160
taking another tangent? 
Dude, run with it bro. 

531
00:31:26,600 --> 00:31:31,760
Thank you. 
So I have been reading Rudolf 

532
00:31:31,760 --> 00:31:35,840
Steiner for a decade or more, as
you know and in Steiner 

533
00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:40,400
constantly you hear this phrase 
atavistic clairvoyance. 

534
00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:48,960
So atavistic kind of means 
ancient or like a way that 

535
00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:52,240
things used to be that they 
aren't anymore, a way of an 

536
00:31:52,480 --> 00:31:55,800
antiquated way of doing things. 
So he kind of says it's almost 

537
00:31:55,800 --> 00:31:59,200
regressive, like at that point 
it was fine, but now it's 

538
00:31:59,200 --> 00:32:02,920
atavistic clairvoyance. 
So he would say things like the 

539
00:32:02,920 --> 00:32:06,080
whole Spiritist movement and 
trying to get knocks on doors or

540
00:32:06,360 --> 00:32:10,800
appear, have ghosts appear That,
or even schizophrenia or all 

541
00:32:10,800 --> 00:32:12,480
these things are kind of like at
a. 

542
00:32:12,480 --> 00:32:14,400
Well, OK. 
He talked about ancient. 

543
00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:16,360
He talked about ancient people 
having this atavistic 

544
00:32:16,360 --> 00:32:19,520
clairvoyance as a rule, that all
ancient people at a certain 

545
00:32:19,520 --> 00:32:21,920
point had this had this 
clairvoyance. 

546
00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:25,120
And so, you know, it just didn't
take me long when I was reading 

547
00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:27,880
Janes to realize, like, they're 
talking about the same thing. 

548
00:32:28,480 --> 00:32:30,720
Steiner is saying that all 
ancient people have a type of 

549
00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:32,600
clairvoyance. 
And James is saying that all 

550
00:32:32,600 --> 00:32:35,920
ancient people visually and 
auditorily hallucinate and see 

551
00:32:35,920 --> 00:32:38,640
into their spiritual world. 
It's like, OK, these people are 

552
00:32:38,640 --> 00:32:41,760
saying the same thing. 
But what's funny is that Steiner

553
00:32:41,760 --> 00:32:44,880
said it 100 years before James 
did, and he said it for 

554
00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:48,960
completely different reasons. 
And James said it not because he

555
00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:51,600
read Steiner and agreed, but 
because he used a fully 

556
00:32:51,600 --> 00:32:54,360
different methodology but came 
to the same conclusion. 

557
00:32:54,760 --> 00:32:58,560
So it's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, 
here's this, you know, Oxford 

558
00:32:58,560 --> 00:33:01,880
educated linguist psychologist 
talking about Atavista 

559
00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:03,640
clairvoyance. 
And here's Steiner talking about

560
00:33:03,640 --> 00:33:05,760
atavista clairvoyance. 
And then I read Marshall 

561
00:33:05,760 --> 00:33:10,720
Mcluhan, and he's talking about 
how media changes your mind that

562
00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:13,840
the dominant media in the 
society dictates the kind of 

563
00:33:13,840 --> 00:33:16,520
mind. 
So before writing, what was the 

564
00:33:16,520 --> 00:33:18,800
media? 
It was this clairvoyance. 

565
00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:21,680
That's how society's organized. 
That's how they got information 

566
00:33:21,680 --> 00:33:23,640
around. 
And there's a guy named Todd 

567
00:33:23,640 --> 00:33:27,200
Murphy who talks about a 
Darwinistic theory of 

568
00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:30,520
reincarnation. 
And listening to his lecture, he

569
00:33:30,520 --> 00:33:34,560
just brings up the same point. 
And there's Gene Gepser, there's

570
00:33:34,560 --> 00:33:36,280
all these, you know, Tom 
Campbell. 

571
00:33:36,760 --> 00:33:40,480
His whole theory is he. 
Knows the first one was to kind 

572
00:33:40,480 --> 00:33:43,000
of. 
Well, I mean you. 

573
00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:45,680
We people attribute a ton of 
shit to this guy, but they don't

574
00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:47,520
know exactly what exactly was 
his. 

575
00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:53,560
But Pythagoras, right? 
That was like he that was, he 

576
00:33:53,560 --> 00:33:58,560
led an acidic cult where people 
were vegetarian and, you know, 

577
00:33:58,560 --> 00:34:01,640
believed in reincarnation and 
used this number magic and 

578
00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:04,160
numerology to kind of figure 
these things out. 

579
00:34:04,760 --> 00:34:09,320
Totally. 
So like, once James put it to 

580
00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:13,520
me, I realized that all of the 
people I'm reading about are 

581
00:34:13,520 --> 00:34:17,000
talking about this, this, the 
evolution of consciousness. 

582
00:34:17,280 --> 00:34:20,000
And I I know you share that 
passion and that's what you're, 

583
00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:23,159
you know, a lot of this channel 
is about is like talking about 

584
00:34:23,679 --> 00:34:26,960
the future, the new paradigm, 
consciousness, spirituality, 

585
00:34:26,960 --> 00:34:28,679
like. 
So it was just really exciting 

586
00:34:28,679 --> 00:34:30,639
to realize. 
Like Oxford academic 

587
00:34:30,639 --> 00:34:32,880
materialist, he's talking about 
it. 

588
00:34:33,320 --> 00:34:35,080
Esotericist, he's talking about 
it. 

589
00:34:35,080 --> 00:34:37,760
You know, Mcluhan's talking 
about a psychologist. 

590
00:34:38,040 --> 00:34:39,520
They're all coming to this 
conclusion. 

591
00:34:39,920 --> 00:34:41,960
It's like this. 
This new paradigm is starting to

592
00:34:41,960 --> 00:34:45,280
creep and get some serious cold.
And I just thought it was so 

593
00:34:45,280 --> 00:34:48,560
exciting to find people hundreds
of years apart, totally 

594
00:34:48,560 --> 00:34:51,239
dissolute, same ideas. 
So that was, to me, really 

595
00:34:51,239 --> 00:34:53,520
exciting. 
I absolutely. 

596
00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:56,800
I think you hit it on the head 
too, with that whole idea. 

597
00:34:57,200 --> 00:35:01,720
And yeah, I haven't looked into 
or listened to any Steiner stuff

598
00:35:01,720 --> 00:35:06,120
in a long time. 
Maybe I'll revisit it, but in 

599
00:35:06,120 --> 00:35:09,080
terms of what you were saying, I
mean. 

600
00:35:10,960 --> 00:35:19,080
The whole religious, you know, 
gods, goddesses, whole thing. 

601
00:35:19,520 --> 00:35:22,800
It just, it was so confusing to 
me recently. 

602
00:35:22,800 --> 00:35:25,600
Within the last few years of 
like doing the show, it's like 

603
00:35:26,680 --> 00:35:29,600
it's got something else has to 
be going on, whether it's 

604
00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:33,480
entheogens and ritual or 
meditation or some sort of. 

605
00:35:34,080 --> 00:35:37,560
You know, I think I wonder what 
other people think sometimes 

606
00:35:37,560 --> 00:35:39,800
because I feel, I feel like 
other people think that the 

607
00:35:39,800 --> 00:35:42,800
world used to be different, 
where there was like superpowers

608
00:35:43,120 --> 00:35:44,720
in ancient times or something 
like that. 

609
00:35:44,720 --> 00:35:47,360
Like I'm I'm being honest too. 
I I feel like I when I talk to 

610
00:35:47,360 --> 00:35:50,120
people about the stuff, 
sometimes it's like they think 

611
00:35:50,760 --> 00:35:54,520
those things, but in reality the
world is the same. 

612
00:35:54,520 --> 00:35:57,520
I mean, maybe a little bit 
different, like use of 

613
00:35:57,520 --> 00:36:00,200
consciousness and different ways
of looking at things, but. 

614
00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:06,360
People are people. 
You know, so yeah, yeah, yeah, 

615
00:36:06,360 --> 00:36:10,720
it's AI mean that's a big topic.
But I think just to say a little

616
00:36:10,720 --> 00:36:13,720
bit about it, like we've 
definitely been brought up in in

617
00:36:13,720 --> 00:36:18,800
this scientific worldview where 
what exists is natural forces 

618
00:36:19,120 --> 00:36:22,880
gravity, you know that what is 
it, the weak and strong 

619
00:36:22,880 --> 00:36:26,240
electromagnetic force or stuff. 
I don't, you know, the the 

620
00:36:26,240 --> 00:36:29,520
complicated physics and all this
and so but what what brings the 

621
00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:34,760
world about is natural forces. 
Well, of course we know that 

622
00:36:34,920 --> 00:36:38,200
even Newton struggled with this 
idea of action at a distance, 

623
00:36:38,200 --> 00:36:41,600
like he invented gravity, but he
didn't know why it worked. 

624
00:36:41,680 --> 00:36:44,200
He could tell you how it worked 
and the math, but why? 

625
00:36:44,280 --> 00:36:46,000
Why are they attracted to each 
other? 

626
00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:47,640
We we still kind of struggle 
with that. 

627
00:36:48,560 --> 00:36:51,840
So OK, we have the scientific 
thing where everything is 

628
00:36:51,840 --> 00:36:55,200
forces. 
Well, if you ask me, prior to 

629
00:36:55,200 --> 00:36:59,520
that, every person on the planet
explained the way the world 

630
00:36:59,520 --> 00:37:03,320
worked, not in terms of forces, 
but in terms of beings. 

631
00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:06,840
Because, well, what? 
What is growing the plants? 

632
00:37:06,840 --> 00:37:10,360
Well, I got to go out and plant 
the plants and I got to harvest 

633
00:37:10,360 --> 00:37:11,600
them. 
They don't harvest themselves. 

634
00:37:11,600 --> 00:37:14,520
So, like if things get done, a 
being is doing them. 

635
00:37:14,680 --> 00:37:17,400
Why is the bee flying around? 
Who makes the honey? 

636
00:37:17,400 --> 00:37:19,800
Who does? 
You know, things? 

637
00:37:19,800 --> 00:37:21,680
Beings accomplish things. 
Not. 

638
00:37:21,680 --> 00:37:25,320
Not forces, not not 
unintelligent. 

639
00:37:25,440 --> 00:37:27,400
You know, there was no idea of 
forces. 

640
00:37:27,560 --> 00:37:30,680
So it makes sense to me that 
people thought of the way that 

641
00:37:30,680 --> 00:37:35,360
the world worked in terms of 
minds or beings or souls or so. 

642
00:37:35,360 --> 00:37:39,200
Then now natural forces aren't 
forces, They're spirits, natural

643
00:37:39,200 --> 00:37:42,960
spirits. 
And everything is alive because 

644
00:37:42,960 --> 00:37:45,440
they didn't know how to think in
terms of dead forces. 

645
00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:49,160
So yeah, everything is a being. 
Everything is a God. 

646
00:37:49,320 --> 00:37:51,480
Because look at all this 
intelligence, look at all this 

647
00:37:51,480 --> 00:37:53,240
behavior. 
Things, if there, if there's 

648
00:37:53,240 --> 00:37:55,520
nothing alive, rocks don't move,
right? 

649
00:37:55,520 --> 00:37:58,080
So if it's moving, if the world,
all the sun is moving, it must 

650
00:37:58,080 --> 00:38:00,040
be alive. 
It must be a God, it must be a 

651
00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:02,440
being. 
So it's like they saw everything

652
00:38:02,440 --> 00:38:05,920
in terms of being, in terms of 
what we might call consciousness

653
00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:09,320
and not in terms of forces. 
So yeah, I think like that is a 

654
00:38:09,320 --> 00:38:12,640
big shift and now we're starting
to see a shift back towards like

655
00:38:12,880 --> 00:38:15,600
what are these forces? 
Are they intelligent, do they 

656
00:38:15,600 --> 00:38:19,200
have mind, are they conscious or
there's their consciousness? 

657
00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:22,040
And yeah, so I don't know if 
that if that is helps at all or.

658
00:38:23,280 --> 00:38:30,600
Yeah, no, that was great insight
I think, yeah, I I it's it's 

659
00:38:30,600 --> 00:38:36,280
hard to put yourself in like. 
Somebody elses consciousness 

660
00:38:36,280 --> 00:38:41,600
now, let alone somebody that 
lived 3004 thousand, 5000 years,

661
00:38:41,640 --> 00:38:47,960
you know, whatever. 
So I mean really though, like 

662
00:38:47,960 --> 00:38:53,400
I'll keep saying this, this just
kind of like fits all of those. 

663
00:38:53,800 --> 00:38:57,080
Weird mysteries that they 
couldn't figure out of like the 

664
00:38:57,080 --> 00:38:59,800
gods and gods because like even 
archaeologists and 

665
00:38:59,800 --> 00:39:02,240
anthropologists they'll tell you
like oh these were the 

666
00:39:02,640 --> 00:39:06,200
primordial gods Nutt and Gab and
they they, you know it had to do

667
00:39:06,200 --> 00:39:10,840
with this mythology and you know
the the beginning and but they 

668
00:39:10,840 --> 00:39:13,520
don't they don't really they 
don't look at it. 

669
00:39:13,520 --> 00:39:16,600
They don't look at they just 
look at how these people did 

670
00:39:16,600 --> 00:39:18,760
these things. 
They don't look at why they did 

671
00:39:18,760 --> 00:39:22,000
these things and and I think 
that's important purpose or 

672
00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:24,600
Telos's. 
Massive when it comes to the 

673
00:39:24,600 --> 00:39:28,400
stuff. 
And teleology has been utterly 

674
00:39:28,400 --> 00:39:31,120
removed from the sciences and 
philosophy and and academic 

675
00:39:31,120 --> 00:39:33,920
circles that there's no point. 
You know, just again, it goes 

676
00:39:33,920 --> 00:39:35,680
right back to the evolution of 
consciousness. 

677
00:39:35,880 --> 00:39:37,960
What's the point of it all? 
And if you believe in a 

678
00:39:37,960 --> 00:39:39,840
teleology, you think there is a 
point, Yeah. 

679
00:39:39,920 --> 00:39:42,080
And that's been taken out. 
So yeah, that's a great, great 

680
00:39:42,080 --> 00:39:45,320
call. 
Well, Even so, and I've talked 

681
00:39:45,320 --> 00:39:49,680
about this before, like even if 
you use like extreme cartesian 

682
00:39:49,680 --> 00:39:52,920
doubt about like purpose or 
whatever. 

683
00:39:53,200 --> 00:39:56,720
You would still be left with 
evolution, which is in itself is

684
00:39:56,720 --> 00:40:00,000
purpose. 
Like trying to survive is 

685
00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:02,200
purpose. 
So if you stripped everything 

686
00:40:02,200 --> 00:40:07,000
away, the fundamental reason of 
why we multiply and live and 

687
00:40:07,000 --> 00:40:12,200
breathe is because that there is
that purpose is to stay alive. 

688
00:40:12,200 --> 00:40:16,280
So yeah, I don't know. 
I think Tom Campbell summed it 

689
00:40:16,280 --> 00:40:18,000
just up. 
What you're saying there's only,

690
00:40:18,600 --> 00:40:21,840
OK, there's three options. 
There's you can evolve, you can 

691
00:40:21,840 --> 00:40:23,840
devolve, or you can stay the 
same. 

692
00:40:24,240 --> 00:40:26,920
Well, it actually takes more 
energy to stay the same than the

693
00:40:26,920 --> 00:40:28,880
other two options. 
So that gets thrown out. 

694
00:40:29,320 --> 00:40:32,280
And you know, if you devolve, 
that just hurts the system. 

695
00:40:32,280 --> 00:40:35,080
So the system evolution is the 
only game in town. 

696
00:40:35,080 --> 00:40:37,360
There's no stasis, There's no 
devolving. 

697
00:40:37,360 --> 00:40:40,960
We have to continue to evolve. 
And it reminds me all the time 

698
00:40:40,960 --> 00:40:46,080
of a Gerta poem, we had the 
title Stability in change. 

699
00:40:46,640 --> 00:40:49,920
And so if you have, if you have 
the idea of love or 

700
00:40:49,920 --> 00:40:53,840
consciousness or the godhead or 
if this, this being, if that 

701
00:40:53,840 --> 00:40:58,400
does exist, it it can't just sit
around and be if it does that 

702
00:40:58,400 --> 00:41:02,720
it'll start to devolve. 
So everything is trying to keep 

703
00:41:02,720 --> 00:41:05,800
the stability and change towards
evolution, towards love. 

704
00:41:06,280 --> 00:41:10,280
And that's kind of how I see it.
It's like, yeah, evolution is is

705
00:41:10,600 --> 00:41:12,840
that's the only game in town. 
We got to keep moving forward 

706
00:41:12,840 --> 00:41:15,080
and where we're going, well, 
we're going to figure that out. 

707
00:41:15,280 --> 00:41:16,800
There's no one that can say 
where we're going. 

708
00:41:16,800 --> 00:41:18,680
We're going to get, we're going 
to find out when we get there. 

709
00:41:19,680 --> 00:41:22,600
Well, I mean, I wouldn't say no 
one. 

710
00:41:22,600 --> 00:41:25,040
I mean eventually here is pretty
soon I think we'll have more of 

711
00:41:25,040 --> 00:41:30,360
a hand and where that's going, I
mean just with like technology 

712
00:41:30,360 --> 00:41:32,720
and. 
CRISPR and all that kind of 

713
00:41:32,720 --> 00:41:35,160
stuff. 
So for sure I I agree with you. 

714
00:41:35,160 --> 00:41:38,680
I I think I look to people like 
Steiner, you know, maybe even 

715
00:41:38,680 --> 00:41:40,840
people like Tom Campbell and 
Marsh Mcluhan sort of 

716
00:41:40,840 --> 00:41:44,360
visionaries that are are 
offering insights. 

717
00:41:44,800 --> 00:41:47,480
But I'm taking that sentiment a 
bit from Steiner himself like 

718
00:41:48,000 --> 00:41:51,280
you know we're trying to become 
free and we have to if we don't 

719
00:41:51,280 --> 00:41:53,080
do that, we're not you know, 
we're not going to continue to 

720
00:41:53,080 --> 00:41:55,040
evolve. 
So yeah, there's definitely, I 

721
00:41:55,040 --> 00:41:58,600
think there's a big cosmic plan 
and then we're we're instigators

722
00:41:58,600 --> 00:42:00,400
in that plan so. 
Yeah. 

723
00:42:01,000 --> 00:42:04,840
I mean, look, again, go read 
this book because it will make 

724
00:42:04,840 --> 00:42:07,600
you think, especially if you're 
into like, the ancient stuff and

725
00:42:07,600 --> 00:42:09,920
had questions about things I 
remember. 

726
00:42:09,920 --> 00:42:14,040
So, like, there's the famous, 
like mythos surrounding Thalies 

727
00:42:14,040 --> 00:42:19,760
that when it was a rainy season 
and he realized there was going 

728
00:42:19,760 --> 00:42:23,880
to be more of a a harvest for 
olives, so he went around and 

729
00:42:23,880 --> 00:42:28,760
bought all the olive presses. 
Then when it came time to press 

730
00:42:28,760 --> 00:42:31,520
all the olives and all these 
people were looking, where did 

731
00:42:31,520 --> 00:42:33,240
they go? 
Oh, this dude just made a 

732
00:42:33,240 --> 00:42:37,080
fortune, 'cause he he 
understood, you know, this these

733
00:42:37,080 --> 00:42:40,760
were natural forces, not 
bicameral gods talking to me, 

734
00:42:40,760 --> 00:42:43,680
telling me to do this. 
So again, it'll it'll make you 

735
00:42:43,680 --> 00:42:47,400
go back and think about all 
these stories and anecdotes and 

736
00:42:47,400 --> 00:42:50,920
things, and again, it fits. 
So it's it's weird. 

737
00:42:50,920 --> 00:42:52,800
It's just it could be one of 
those things that's just a 

738
00:42:52,800 --> 00:42:54,040
coincidence. 
But. 

739
00:42:54,560 --> 00:42:56,600
Maybe there's some truth in 
there and. 

740
00:42:56,600 --> 00:42:59,120
And we'll figure that out here, 
you know, in the future. 

741
00:42:59,560 --> 00:43:01,600
Yeah. 
And just to to reiterate that if

742
00:43:01,600 --> 00:43:05,000
you're the kind of person who 
uses the word consciousness, you

743
00:43:05,000 --> 00:43:08,200
kind of have to read 
bicameralism, not because he's 

744
00:43:08,200 --> 00:43:12,320
right, but because he does such 
a good job analyzing the reality

745
00:43:12,320 --> 00:43:14,960
of consciousness that it's just 
worth having in your toolbox and

746
00:43:14,960 --> 00:43:16,600
your lexicon. 
Yeah. 

747
00:43:16,600 --> 00:43:18,840
If you're interested in ancient 
mythology like you're saying, 

748
00:43:18,840 --> 00:43:20,920
like, there's a bunch of 
different angles to approach it.

749
00:43:21,440 --> 00:43:23,880
But certainly if you're talking 
about consciousness, you've got 

750
00:43:23,880 --> 00:43:25,160
to put this on your reading 
list. 

751
00:43:25,160 --> 00:43:28,320
It's just one of those books. 
Yeah, so. 

752
00:43:28,320 --> 00:43:32,400
And there's it's really three 
books in one and he kind of 

753
00:43:32,400 --> 00:43:34,760
breaks down everything in each 
one. 

754
00:43:36,240 --> 00:43:39,120
I just to interrupt real quick, 
even if you were to read the the

755
00:43:39,120 --> 00:43:41,880
1st 100 pages where like you're 
saying the first third where 

756
00:43:41,880 --> 00:43:43,920
he's just talking about what 
consciousness is and what it 

757
00:43:43,920 --> 00:43:46,680
isn't. 
But you could stop there and you

758
00:43:46,680 --> 00:43:49,160
would be so benefited so much 
from having picked that up. 

759
00:43:49,520 --> 00:43:51,800
But once you get that far, it is
pretty hard to stop, as you 

760
00:43:51,800 --> 00:43:54,440
know, having read the book. 
What do you what do you think? 

761
00:43:54,440 --> 00:43:56,960
What how would you define? 
I'll I'll tell you real quick 

762
00:43:56,960 --> 00:43:59,920
how I think about it now after 
reading this and just everything

763
00:43:59,920 --> 00:44:03,240
I know. 
I define consciousness as 

764
00:44:04,120 --> 00:44:06,960
self-awareness and 
introspection, meaning that you 

765
00:44:06,960 --> 00:44:09,680
can look at. 
Your relationship to the 

766
00:44:09,680 --> 00:44:12,720
external world around you and 
make decisions, manipulate 

767
00:44:12,720 --> 00:44:15,360
things, alter things, things of 
that nature. 

768
00:44:15,360 --> 00:44:19,920
It's not just, oh, lights coming
in or oh it's it's it's the 

769
00:44:19,920 --> 00:44:24,280
complex system that gets formed 
through, whether it's evolution 

770
00:44:24,280 --> 00:44:28,920
or evolution of mind as you get 
older and your system just 

771
00:44:28,920 --> 00:44:31,080
starts to kind of start firing 
into place. 

772
00:44:31,080 --> 00:44:34,600
But it's the when things are 
clicking, it's the ability to 

773
00:44:34,600 --> 00:44:38,720
think about. 
Things internally and then 

774
00:44:39,800 --> 00:44:43,520
externalize them or vice versa 
or whatever, right. 

775
00:44:44,920 --> 00:44:48,760
Oh yeah, it's a good question. 
I'm, I'm reaching to think about

776
00:44:48,760 --> 00:44:50,160
what How would James answer 
that? 

777
00:44:50,160 --> 00:44:55,520
But how am I answering that? 
Yeah, consciousness. 

778
00:44:57,440 --> 00:45:00,800
I like to sometimes. 
I think of it as like the stage.

779
00:45:00,800 --> 00:45:01,600
Hold on. 
It was funny. 

780
00:45:01,600 --> 00:45:04,080
You're like, yeah, 
consciousness. 

781
00:45:04,080 --> 00:45:05,680
And I hate, like one of those 
old timey guys. 

782
00:45:05,680 --> 00:45:08,200
He's got like a little mustache,
right, These twirling, you know,

783
00:45:08,200 --> 00:45:11,200
be a good little clip to pull 
out and get memed. 

784
00:45:11,480 --> 00:45:13,000
Yeah. 
Oh, man. 

785
00:45:13,320 --> 00:45:14,400
Yeah. 
Yeah, maybe. 

786
00:45:14,400 --> 00:45:18,640
You know I think of it like 
there's the eye like James talks

787
00:45:18,640 --> 00:45:21,480
about, but then there's the 
stage that all the things that 

788
00:45:21,480 --> 00:45:24,960
the eye interacts with and the 
stage is kind of like the 

789
00:45:24,960 --> 00:45:26,360
consciousness. 
But you made a good point. 

790
00:45:26,360 --> 00:45:30,360
You don't just witness it, you 
also do consciousness. 

791
00:45:30,360 --> 00:45:33,360
So it's not just the stage 
because there's an interactive 

792
00:45:33,360 --> 00:45:37,840
element. 
I I'm, I'm a big fan of just you

793
00:45:37,840 --> 00:45:41,400
know, reciting what other people
think of things. 

794
00:45:41,720 --> 00:45:44,800
So I think Steiner has a cool 
system where he talks about 

795
00:45:45,240 --> 00:45:51,520
physical ether, astral I body, 
but then he talks about where we

796
00:45:51,520 --> 00:45:55,880
are now is like developing like 
we're like spiritualizing the 

797
00:45:55,880 --> 00:45:58,320
etheric body, which he calls 
like consciousness, soul. 

798
00:45:58,320 --> 00:46:01,000
And then we'll spiritualize the 
astral body and then eventually 

799
00:46:01,000 --> 00:46:04,600
spiritualize the physical body. 
So he has these seven stages and

800
00:46:04,600 --> 00:46:07,520
he puts us at like 4 going on to
five. 

801
00:46:07,520 --> 00:46:13,440
So he's got an answer, you know,
and yeah, yeah, consciousness. 

802
00:46:13,480 --> 00:46:15,680
I just think it's just such a 
hard question to answer it when 

803
00:46:15,680 --> 00:46:17,960
you're talking about James 
because he does such a good job 

804
00:46:17,960 --> 00:46:20,000
of whittling away everything you
thought you knew about what 

805
00:46:20,000 --> 00:46:26,480
consciousness is until it's like
I I in spatialization and an eye

806
00:46:26,520 --> 00:46:29,480
in a mind. 
An analogue eye in a mind space.

807
00:46:29,480 --> 00:46:34,080
Yeah, it's a good question. 
Yeah, but I mean just think 

808
00:46:34,080 --> 00:46:39,560
about the like that. 
I thought about it like when I 

809
00:46:39,560 --> 00:46:41,760
was thinking about like, that's 
like kind of like what a video 

810
00:46:41,760 --> 00:46:45,320
game would be like. 
You hit a button, the thing does

811
00:46:46,040 --> 00:46:48,080
the thing. 
Not that there would be the God 

812
00:46:48,080 --> 00:46:49,680
though, and the control. 
You're doing that thing to 

813
00:46:49,680 --> 00:46:54,640
yourself if that makes sense. 
Like it would be a video game 

814
00:46:54,640 --> 00:46:58,800
playing itself, but just still 
doing the video game and not 

815
00:46:58,800 --> 00:47:01,840
doing like whatever it wants or 
free will or whatever. 

816
00:47:02,240 --> 00:47:05,240
Yeah, you're you're you're 
pointing towards this idea that 

817
00:47:05,240 --> 00:47:08,240
like, and this is a bit of a 
mcluhanist idea that like the 

818
00:47:08,240 --> 00:47:12,680
media we make extends our body. 
So like, you know, these 

819
00:47:12,680 --> 00:47:16,640
alternate realities or virtual 
realities, like, it's almost 

820
00:47:16,640 --> 00:47:19,880
like we're extending the 
spatialization that James talks 

821
00:47:19,880 --> 00:47:23,400
about like into a, not just into
our, you know, we, we think we 

822
00:47:23,400 --> 00:47:25,800
have like the space in our heads
where our consciousness is, but 

823
00:47:25,800 --> 00:47:27,640
then the video game is like a 
new space where the 

824
00:47:27,640 --> 00:47:30,040
consciousness fills up outside 
of our heads. 

825
00:47:30,040 --> 00:47:33,280
I mean, yeah, we're extending 
ourselves into these systems in 

826
00:47:33,280 --> 00:47:37,160
really surprising ways. 
Yeah, absolutely. 

827
00:47:37,160 --> 00:47:39,320
It's very bizarre. 
It's tough. 

828
00:47:39,760 --> 00:47:42,680
I want to read Mcluhan and James
and Steiner and Tom Campbell all

829
00:47:42,680 --> 00:47:45,600
at once and it's like, oh God, I
can never keep it all straight 

830
00:47:45,600 --> 00:47:48,160
because they're all yeah. 
Yeah, I haven't. 

831
00:47:48,160 --> 00:47:50,160
I don't know. 
I went on a. 

832
00:47:50,920 --> 00:47:54,440
Non reading kick. 
And then I I started reading 

833
00:47:54,440 --> 00:47:59,080
again about a few months ago and
this was one of them along with 

834
00:47:59,080 --> 00:48:02,480
a few other ones and some guests
that we have coming up and their

835
00:48:02,480 --> 00:48:06,960
books and stuff. 
But but yeah, I mean, I don't 

836
00:48:07,000 --> 00:48:09,280
know. 
I think not to take a little bit

837
00:48:09,280 --> 00:48:14,400
of a diversion, but I think, I 
really do think like moderation 

838
00:48:14,400 --> 00:48:18,200
is the key to life. 
Like, I'm at my best when I'm 

839
00:48:18,200 --> 00:48:21,360
like playing a little guitar. 
Playing a little Call of Duty or

840
00:48:21,360 --> 00:48:25,680
NHL you know for me time 
obviously I have a son and a 

841
00:48:25,680 --> 00:48:28,400
wife and that takes up you know 
most of my day. 

842
00:48:28,400 --> 00:48:32,840
But me time everything. 
When I'm all my the podcast the 

843
00:48:32,840 --> 00:48:35,600
creative stuff everything's 
kicking and and right lately 

844
00:48:35,600 --> 00:48:38,480
I've I've been thinking like 
when I focus too heavily on any 

845
00:48:38,480 --> 00:48:41,640
one of those things but I don't 
know why this made me think of 

846
00:48:41,640 --> 00:48:45,200
that but I just I think the flow
state really is the moderation 

847
00:48:45,200 --> 00:48:48,680
and and constantly. 
You know tickling your your 

848
00:48:48,680 --> 00:48:51,400
passions. 
No, I I think there's I I 

849
00:48:51,400 --> 00:48:53,360
appreciate you saying that 
because you're bringing us to a 

850
00:48:53,360 --> 00:48:56,120
very pragmatic and practical 
place that I think it's always 

851
00:48:56,120 --> 00:49:01,280
important to have that in mind. 
We're all very philosophical 

852
00:49:01,280 --> 00:49:06,240
people but you have to be a body
and a person and be bring 

853
00:49:06,240 --> 00:49:09,480
balance. 
And I, I, I that's AI think 

854
00:49:09,520 --> 00:49:13,360
that's a very good sentiment. 
And you work hard, man. 

855
00:49:13,360 --> 00:49:15,120
I'm impressed. 
So I couldn't then. 

856
00:49:15,520 --> 00:49:17,720
Oh, I appreciate it, man. 
It's tough, but it's tough. 

857
00:49:17,720 --> 00:49:21,480
It's tough having a full time 
job, you know, a little son that

858
00:49:21,480 --> 00:49:23,800
you also help take care of 
during the week. 

859
00:49:23,800 --> 00:49:27,280
You know, and like, dude, child 
care is super expensive. 

860
00:49:27,280 --> 00:49:28,480
I don't. 
I mean, I'm sure you know, you 

861
00:49:28,480 --> 00:49:32,520
know, people know, but you know,
on top of all that, just 

862
00:49:32,520 --> 00:49:35,200
everything, all the. 
The pursuits that I do on the 

863
00:49:35,200 --> 00:49:39,680
side and the podcast stuff and 
the creative stuff and but let's

864
00:49:39,840 --> 00:49:42,880
the reason why I said that 
though is I want to segue to a 

865
00:49:42,880 --> 00:49:45,840
little bit of what you do with 
glass and art. 

866
00:49:45,840 --> 00:49:50,320
Because I think art is the 
ultimate form of breaking out of

867
00:49:50,320 --> 00:49:54,520
this bicameral mind like 
originality through art and 

868
00:49:54,920 --> 00:49:58,160
expression is. 
Yeah. 

869
00:49:58,240 --> 00:50:02,080
I mean, I think that that's 
that's another thing I was 

870
00:50:02,080 --> 00:50:06,480
thinking of too is like. 
Cave art did those people, for a

871
00:50:06,480 --> 00:50:09,240
moment, were those like a few 
people throughout time that are 

872
00:50:09,240 --> 00:50:12,280
just like capturing what we're 
talking about. 

873
00:50:12,280 --> 00:50:15,240
And then maybe not the rest of 
the people, but there was a few 

874
00:50:15,240 --> 00:50:18,840
artists and a few, you know, 
intellectuals or whatever. 

875
00:50:19,360 --> 00:50:22,120
Yeah, even the academics say 
that whoever painted them were 

876
00:50:22,120 --> 00:50:25,120
probably tribal leaders or 
shamans or someone of great 

877
00:50:25,120 --> 00:50:27,400
significance within the society.
That was playing a very 

878
00:50:27,400 --> 00:50:29,880
important role. 
And I I totally think you're on 

879
00:50:29,880 --> 00:50:34,440
to it like that, that the the 
drawing itself shows that 

880
00:50:34,440 --> 00:50:37,480
there's a different type of 
mentality than everyone else 

881
00:50:37,560 --> 00:50:39,440
that's there. 
And then it's a more modern 

882
00:50:39,440 --> 00:50:42,280
mentality. 
So I think I I totally agree and

883
00:50:42,280 --> 00:50:43,360
I appreciate you bringing that 
up. 

884
00:50:43,360 --> 00:50:47,240
Yeah, I've been doing glass for 
a living now for like last year 

885
00:50:47,240 --> 00:50:51,280
and a half and there is just so 
much balance you have to bring 

886
00:50:51,280 --> 00:50:53,080
to it. 
Like I I don't want, I can't 

887
00:50:53,080 --> 00:50:55,680
spend too much time doing that. 
I, you know, I do have a 

888
00:50:55,680 --> 00:50:58,400
tendency to read a lot, but I 
can't do that all the time. 

889
00:50:58,720 --> 00:51:01,400
I, I I play disc golf. 
That's one of my things. 

890
00:51:01,400 --> 00:51:05,240
So I I definitely have a lot of 
hobbies I balance myself in. 

891
00:51:05,240 --> 00:51:10,120
I think, you know we can't we 
can't let the corporations get 

892
00:51:10,120 --> 00:51:12,600
us and think about this idea of 
productivity. 

893
00:51:12,920 --> 00:51:15,480
You know there's we're not we're
not trying to be productive. 

894
00:51:15,480 --> 00:51:18,120
We're trying to be becomes more 
spiritual and more loving and 

895
00:51:18,120 --> 00:51:21,680
that may mean sitting and being 
silent and being goalless and 

896
00:51:21,680 --> 00:51:23,520
rejuvenating and bringing 
balance. 

897
00:51:23,520 --> 00:51:27,880
And yeah, it's hard to separate 
productivity with like your own 

898
00:51:27,880 --> 00:51:30,520
spiritual aspirations, but 
there's certainly, I think 

899
00:51:30,520 --> 00:51:31,880
there's something of a 
difference, yeah. 

900
00:51:32,800 --> 00:51:35,760
Yeah, you don't want to be that 
noble cog or whatever. 

901
00:51:35,760 --> 00:51:39,400
You're not like, you just we all
like whatever it is, whatever 

902
00:51:39,400 --> 00:51:40,840
you're passionate about, start 
doing it. 

903
00:51:40,840 --> 00:51:43,040
If you're not doing it right 
now, take it from me. 

904
00:51:43,080 --> 00:51:46,040
Like I just said, I'm at my best
when I'm balancing all these 

905
00:51:46,040 --> 00:51:47,880
things, hitting them all, you 
know? 

906
00:51:48,240 --> 00:51:50,600
Same thing with my boy Tischler 
over here. 

907
00:51:50,600 --> 00:51:52,880
Listen to this guy. 
Look. 

908
00:51:53,760 --> 00:51:56,240
Go check out his glass. 
A Tischler glass? 

909
00:51:56,240 --> 00:51:58,400
Seriously. 
On Instagram or a Tischler 

910
00:51:58,400 --> 00:52:02,920
glass.com and buy yourself a 
terp set. 

911
00:52:02,920 --> 00:52:06,440
Get a marble marble your marble.
You don't have to do anything, 

912
00:52:06,440 --> 00:52:08,440
you can just set it. 
It looks beautiful on your you 

913
00:52:08,440 --> 00:52:12,280
know, your counter, whatever. 
Your your, your collection. 

914
00:52:12,280 --> 00:52:14,080
I have a collection. 
I'm a collector. 

915
00:52:14,080 --> 00:52:17,440
But I'm trying to trying to get 
some more pieces into your 

916
00:52:17,440 --> 00:52:19,400
collection. 
I we talked about follow up with

917
00:52:19,400 --> 00:52:20,760
that. 
I'm all I'll. 

918
00:52:20,880 --> 00:52:24,800
I'll be definitely adding to 
that in the future and I will. 

919
00:52:25,240 --> 00:52:27,600
I just want to reference because
you're giving me the platform. 

920
00:52:27,920 --> 00:52:31,160
If if anyone listening is savvy 
on Instagram and they aren't 

921
00:52:31,160 --> 00:52:33,600
finding stuff in their price 
range or is not seeing something

922
00:52:33,600 --> 00:52:36,200
they want. 
If you just mentioned this is 

923
00:52:36,200 --> 00:52:38,520
how you found me, we can 
definitely work on something I 

924
00:52:38,520 --> 00:52:41,160
want to support Mike what you're
doing and all the people 

925
00:52:41,160 --> 00:52:43,840
supporting you so but we're a 
little community so just 

926
00:52:43,840 --> 00:52:46,560
mentioned that you found me that
way I'd I'd be happy to to get 

927
00:52:46,560 --> 00:52:48,680
something in your hands. 
So very support, very 

928
00:52:48,680 --> 00:52:51,560
appreciative of you guys. 
Dude, that's awesome for sure. 

929
00:52:51,560 --> 00:52:54,960
Somebody take advantage of that 
because that's no he's seriously

930
00:52:54,960 --> 00:53:00,280
he's he's got stuffs on a lot of
the nice online galleries and 

931
00:53:00,280 --> 00:53:02,440
stuff like that too. 
So his stuff's out there. 

932
00:53:03,080 --> 00:53:08,040
I will also point out that. 
We may be, I don't know, you 

933
00:53:08,040 --> 00:53:09,800
know, we'll talk about this 
more, but we were talking about 

934
00:53:09,800 --> 00:53:12,960
maybe doing a collaboration too,
maybe like a mind escape marble 

935
00:53:12,960 --> 00:53:15,200
or something like that. 
I think something like if you're

936
00:53:15,200 --> 00:53:16,960
interested, somebody's 
interested or people are 

937
00:53:16,960 --> 00:53:20,880
interested in some sort of mind 
escape, either functional or non

938
00:53:20,880 --> 00:53:22,640
functional glass piece, let me 
know. 

939
00:53:23,040 --> 00:53:26,720
Yes, yeah, I'm already. 
I'm thinking of ideas right now 

940
00:53:26,720 --> 00:53:29,640
to get like a couple pieces made
that, yeah, that, yeah, there's 

941
00:53:29,640 --> 00:53:31,400
some options. 
So it'll be some work, but it's 

942
00:53:31,400 --> 00:53:33,080
totally worth it. 
Yeah, it might be hard, I. 

943
00:53:33,960 --> 00:53:37,400
And I I'm not taking into 
account how hard this would be, 

944
00:53:37,400 --> 00:53:42,240
but I think a dicurlic or 
dicuric background with like 

945
00:53:42,240 --> 00:53:46,800
some like slime green writing or
or colors or something like 

946
00:53:46,800 --> 00:53:48,840
that. 
I've seen you, you've good slime

947
00:53:48,840 --> 00:53:50,560
work on your on some of your 
marbles where you do those 

948
00:53:50,560 --> 00:53:52,320
flower patterns. 
Thank you. 

949
00:53:52,800 --> 00:53:54,360
Yeah. 
Are you familiar with the term 

950
00:53:54,360 --> 00:53:58,560
Marini? 
You know Marini, people can do 

951
00:53:59,040 --> 00:54:02,760
like an image and then like 
they'll do an image and kind of 

952
00:54:02,760 --> 00:54:07,000
like a a flat 2D thing. 
And then you stretch it out and 

953
00:54:07,000 --> 00:54:11,200
cut up the slices and that image
gets like a small, you get like 

954
00:54:11,200 --> 00:54:12,480
a little coin with that image on
it. 

955
00:54:12,480 --> 00:54:15,080
So if we could do your logo in a
Marini, we could stretch it out 

956
00:54:15,080 --> 00:54:17,880
and cut up like 10 or 20 and 
then you can make more than one 

957
00:54:17,880 --> 00:54:18,760
piece. 
Oh dude, yeah. 

958
00:54:18,760 --> 00:54:21,720
That would be a way to get kind 
of like your image. 

959
00:54:21,720 --> 00:54:23,160
And then we put some dichro 
behind it. 

960
00:54:23,160 --> 00:54:25,160
Like, yeah, I haven't done too 
much work like that, but I 

961
00:54:25,160 --> 00:54:26,920
would. 
It's such a good reason to try. 

962
00:54:26,920 --> 00:54:29,120
So yeah, yeah, yeah. 
Let me think about it. 

963
00:54:29,400 --> 00:54:31,600
Yeah, we'll, we'll, we'll get 
more into that. 

964
00:54:31,600 --> 00:54:34,040
I'll let people know if that 
comes to fruition, cuz I think 

965
00:54:34,040 --> 00:54:38,640
that that'd be kind of cool. 
And obviously, you know, we 

966
00:54:38,640 --> 00:54:41,760
wanna support Andrew here and 
what he's doing and yeah, go 

967
00:54:41,760 --> 00:54:45,320
check his stuff out like on a 
Tischler glass.com. 

968
00:54:45,800 --> 00:54:47,480
All right, let's get back into 
this now. 

969
00:54:50,080 --> 00:54:52,760
What what was your take away 
from the whole thing? 

970
00:54:52,760 --> 00:54:55,480
Obviously, like I mentioned, I'm
not completely sold. 

971
00:54:55,480 --> 00:54:58,880
I think it's super interesting. 
It fits a lot of of the the 

972
00:54:58,880 --> 00:55:03,120
holes or plugs, a lot of the 
holes of mysteries and stuff. 

973
00:55:03,120 --> 00:55:08,160
But through my own experiences, 
I do think that it's tough. 

974
00:55:08,520 --> 00:55:12,560
Look, I have OCD, so I have my 
brain works differently to begin

975
00:55:12,560 --> 00:55:15,320
with. 
So it's not that hard to believe

976
00:55:15,320 --> 00:55:18,200
that that's possible. 
It's just hard for me to believe

977
00:55:18,200 --> 00:55:23,200
that. 
Throughout time we just this 

978
00:55:23,200 --> 00:55:27,400
guy's had to come up with this 
intricate theory to explain that

979
00:55:27,400 --> 00:55:30,240
we just didn't figure it out. 
Which is possible I guess too. 

980
00:55:30,240 --> 00:55:32,800
But I don't know What was your 
final take away from the whole 

981
00:55:32,800 --> 00:55:34,360
thing. 
Yeah it's. 

982
00:55:34,400 --> 00:55:40,120
I think that's well said. 
Like it it really, until you put

983
00:55:40,400 --> 00:55:44,640
all of the pieces together like 
he's describing, it's kind of 

984
00:55:44,640 --> 00:55:47,480
hard to believe. 
And he admits it all the time. 

985
00:55:47,480 --> 00:55:50,960
Like, you know, it's kind of an 
unbelievable theory. 

986
00:55:51,200 --> 00:55:54,000
So it really takes like seeing 
it from the very particular 

987
00:55:54,000 --> 00:55:57,320
angle that he saw it from to 
sort of have it make sense. 

988
00:55:57,560 --> 00:56:00,080
But like you're saying, when you
do look at it from that angle, 

989
00:56:00,080 --> 00:56:02,200
it does make a crap ton of 
sense. 

990
00:56:03,560 --> 00:56:06,440
But I just think my take away 
and I definitely referenced it, 

991
00:56:06,840 --> 00:56:10,360
the fact that kind of like 
everyone I'm reading is talking 

992
00:56:10,360 --> 00:56:13,320
about the evolution of 
consciousness, like it that kind

993
00:56:13,320 --> 00:56:16,800
of makes me excited. 
So I I think you're right. 

994
00:56:16,800 --> 00:56:20,240
I'm not committed to him being 
the guy because I think there's 

995
00:56:20,240 --> 00:56:21,760
a lot more that needs to be 
added. 

996
00:56:22,200 --> 00:56:25,480
But he's, I think he's one of 
the guys that is starting to 

997
00:56:25,480 --> 00:56:29,360
build that foundation. 
Just just I just I think we can 

998
00:56:29,360 --> 00:56:33,560
agree that like consciousness 
and mind and and spirituality 

999
00:56:33,560 --> 00:56:35,880
like are are the big debates 
right now. 

1000
00:56:37,200 --> 00:56:38,880
So it's just a piece in that 
debate. 

1001
00:56:39,840 --> 00:56:43,840
I mean, I'll give you, I'll give
you a hot take, which is I could

1002
00:56:43,840 --> 00:56:47,080
stop the show right now and just
say all this is going to be 

1003
00:56:47,080 --> 00:56:50,200
wrong 100 years from now. 
I'm not going to do that because

1004
00:56:50,200 --> 00:56:54,680
I feel like you do need to build
the correct narrative. 

1005
00:56:54,680 --> 00:56:57,080
So like, I'm not saying that I'm
like super intelligent or 

1006
00:56:57,080 --> 00:56:59,360
anything like that. 
But I see a lot of dumb people 

1007
00:56:59,360 --> 00:57:01,160
out there talking about a lot of
stuff that they probably 

1008
00:57:01,160 --> 00:57:03,000
shouldn't be. 
And then they have like way huge

1009
00:57:03,000 --> 00:57:05,440
audiences. 
So it's like you kind of have to

1010
00:57:05,440 --> 00:57:10,280
combat the BS with some of the 
more legitimate research, you 

1011
00:57:10,280 --> 00:57:11,360
know? 
And that's what I feel like I'm 

1012
00:57:11,360 --> 00:57:14,400
doing. 
I'm trying to add value to, you 

1013
00:57:14,400 --> 00:57:16,960
know, whether I think it's right
or wrong, I want to present it 

1014
00:57:16,960 --> 00:57:21,160
in a way that allow people to 
digest it. 

1015
00:57:21,160 --> 00:57:23,680
And and like, maybe they don't 
have the time to sit there and 

1016
00:57:23,680 --> 00:57:26,360
read the whole book or whatever,
but they can take away knowing 

1017
00:57:26,360 --> 00:57:28,160
that like. 
I'm an honest person. 

1018
00:57:28,160 --> 00:57:30,840
I'm not going to be like, oh, I 
figured it out, or that we 

1019
00:57:30,840 --> 00:57:32,480
figured that we're never going 
to figure it out. 

1020
00:57:32,480 --> 00:57:35,520
And I'll give you the final part
of the heart hot take is we may 

1021
00:57:35,520 --> 00:57:37,360
never figure it out because 
we're in it. 

1022
00:57:37,360 --> 00:57:40,360
We are in consciousness. 
Unless you were able to escape 

1023
00:57:40,360 --> 00:57:42,320
consciousness, which is what 
this show is called. 

1024
00:57:42,320 --> 00:57:44,760
Mind escape. 
If you can escape your mind. 

1025
00:57:44,960 --> 00:57:48,360
The closest I ever got was with 
chemical intervention. 

1026
00:57:48,360 --> 00:57:52,680
But if you can escape your mind,
you might have a chance at 

1027
00:57:52,680 --> 00:57:55,520
figuring out what consciousness 
near death experience. 

1028
00:57:56,200 --> 00:57:58,360
You know, there's a couple ways 
to do this. 

1029
00:57:58,360 --> 00:58:00,600
So it's not like it's 
impossible. 

1030
00:58:00,600 --> 00:58:05,000
But again, we might not ever 
figure it out because that is 

1031
00:58:05,000 --> 00:58:07,160
what we we're trying to measure 
consciousness with 

1032
00:58:07,160 --> 00:58:09,560
consciousness. 
We're the observer trying to 

1033
00:58:09,560 --> 00:58:13,120
measure an observation, you 
know, like we're we're, it's 

1034
00:58:13,120 --> 00:58:16,400
kind of like a a double negative
in a way if you think about it. 

1035
00:58:16,400 --> 00:58:22,880
So, well, yeah. 
To just to to to what's the what

1036
00:58:22,880 --> 00:58:25,480
the phrase you use, but you have
to go back the other direction. 

1037
00:58:27,120 --> 00:58:31,440
What's fun with James and these 
people is that they're so far on

1038
00:58:31,440 --> 00:58:35,480
the fringes now that in 100 
years maybe they'll move towards

1039
00:58:35,480 --> 00:58:38,320
the center, whereas the things 
that are in the center now in 

1040
00:58:38,320 --> 00:58:40,880
100 years will definitely be 
moved on from. 

1041
00:58:41,120 --> 00:58:43,960
So James kind of occupies a very
fringe space. 

1042
00:58:44,120 --> 00:58:47,520
So it's like, yeah, that's my 
fun way of it's yeah, he maybe 

1043
00:58:47,520 --> 00:58:50,600
he will be the one that we have 
to say is wrong 100 years from 

1044
00:58:50,600 --> 00:58:52,160
now because he was a bit ahead 
of his time. 

1045
00:58:52,520 --> 00:58:55,520
And like you're saying we still 
will have to overcome even that 

1046
00:58:55,520 --> 00:58:57,880
at some point. 
But at least he, he's one of 

1047
00:58:57,880 --> 00:59:00,800
these fringe guys that, you 
know, yeah, maybe we'll be part 

1048
00:59:00,800 --> 00:59:03,320
of the new paradigm that you're 
saying we'll have to overcome 

1049
00:59:03,320 --> 00:59:05,120
that too. 
And I totally agree with that. 

1050
00:59:06,760 --> 00:59:13,040
But also you're bringing up like
really important personal points

1051
00:59:13,040 --> 00:59:16,240
of view about like balancing 
your your interest in all these 

1052
00:59:16,240 --> 00:59:18,400
topics with like you know your 
own life. 

1053
00:59:18,880 --> 00:59:22,160
And maybe we can get another 
episode going about my guy 

1054
00:59:22,160 --> 00:59:26,880
Steiner and the philosophy of 
freedom, which is his one of his

1055
00:59:26,880 --> 00:59:29,360
main texts. 
And because he actually, you 

1056
00:59:29,360 --> 00:59:33,520
know talks about like you know 
epistemology and like studying 

1057
00:59:33,520 --> 00:59:37,680
mind and where it came from and 
like yeah, like a lot of what 

1058
00:59:37,680 --> 00:59:40,040
you're talking about is is in 
that is in his some of his early

1059
00:59:40,040 --> 00:59:42,000
work. 
So could be another episode. 

1060
00:59:42,320 --> 00:59:44,960
No, let's do it. 
I mean, I I was all into that. 

1061
00:59:45,400 --> 00:59:50,600
I was. 
Hands deep into that, you know 

1062
00:59:50,600 --> 00:59:53,120
back when we were doing those 
episodes, I just did something 

1063
00:59:53,120 --> 00:59:56,320
that, you know, you get on like 
A roll with other stuff and you 

1064
00:59:56,320 --> 00:59:57,760
just don't really think about 
it. 

1065
00:59:57,800 --> 01:00:00,400
Nothing against them. 
I just don't really, you know, 

1066
01:00:00,560 --> 01:00:01,760
haven't thought about them in a 
while. 

1067
01:00:01,760 --> 01:00:06,080
But I'm gonna pick that back up,
you know, like I said, let's do,

1068
01:00:06,080 --> 01:00:08,360
let's do that. 
Let's do an episode on Steiner. 

1069
01:00:09,840 --> 01:00:13,360
We'll get it on the books and 
yeah, I'll start looking into 

1070
01:00:13,360 --> 01:00:14,640
it. 
Just give me like a little bit 

1071
01:00:14,640 --> 01:00:19,040
of direction of what you wanna. 
Look into and we'll go there. 

1072
01:00:19,520 --> 01:00:24,240
Yeah, he's got some nice 
practical advice about 

1073
01:00:24,240 --> 01:00:28,280
spirituality that is very 
different from his, like crazy 

1074
01:00:28,280 --> 01:00:31,120
theories about Atlantis and all 
the other stuff that he talks 

1075
01:00:31,120 --> 01:00:32,840
about. 
So yeah, we could maybe narrow 

1076
01:00:32,840 --> 01:00:34,160
in on that. 
I can get you some stuff to 

1077
01:00:34,160 --> 01:00:35,960
read, yeah. 
I mean, I'm not worried. 

1078
01:00:35,960 --> 01:00:41,560
That seems more of like, 
thinking back, I thought like, 

1079
01:00:41,560 --> 01:00:45,120
oh, it take that. 
But no, that's like like Lemuria

1080
01:00:45,120 --> 01:00:48,880
and you know, all that stuff. 
There's a thing where he's 

1081
01:00:48,880 --> 01:00:50,720
talking about like the Egyptian 
traditions. 

1082
01:00:50,720 --> 01:00:54,720
And he starts to equate like 
their architecture with the way 

1083
01:00:54,720 --> 01:00:57,160
that their minds are at the 
time. 

1084
01:00:57,160 --> 01:01:03,360
Like, you know, if you look at, 
he was just making correlations 

1085
01:01:03,360 --> 01:01:06,680
between like if you look at like
the Greek temples and some of 

1086
01:01:06,680 --> 01:01:09,040
them are like open air and 
these, you know, like he was 

1087
01:01:09,040 --> 01:01:11,600
just making connections between 
that and like the culture of the

1088
01:01:11,600 --> 01:01:14,840
people too. 
But but yeah, it some of it gets

1089
01:01:14,840 --> 01:01:18,280
wacky, but I mean a lot of stuff
gets wacky. 

1090
01:01:18,280 --> 01:01:21,320
So it's like it's if that's what
we're worried about. 

1091
01:01:21,320 --> 01:01:25,120
I mean, that guy lived 100 / 100
years ago, you know so. 

1092
01:01:25,840 --> 01:01:29,920
Yeah, I just, I got into Steiner
reading his philosophy and then 

1093
01:01:29,920 --> 01:01:32,760
I found out that he had all this
other stuff to say. 

1094
01:01:33,520 --> 01:01:36,720
And I I feel lucky that I got 
into his philosophy first, 

1095
01:01:36,720 --> 01:01:40,120
'cause I think if without that. 
You don't really know what to 

1096
01:01:40,120 --> 01:01:42,120
make of all the other stuff. 
Like you're saying There's lots 

1097
01:01:42,120 --> 01:01:43,480
of people that have said lots of
things. 

1098
01:01:43,480 --> 01:01:46,960
So I like to talk about 
Steiner's philosophy because I 

1099
01:01:46,960 --> 01:01:49,240
think it gets at more of the 
heart of what the practical 

1100
01:01:49,240 --> 01:01:51,600
stuff you're talking about. 
Yeah, I mean that turn of the 

1101
01:01:51,600 --> 01:01:54,760
century time too is tough. 
Like Madame Blavatsky, you know,

1102
01:01:54,760 --> 01:01:59,800
a lot of that stuff has like 
race, racial undertones and you 

1103
01:01:59,800 --> 01:02:01,640
know, a lot of like messed up 
shit in there. 

1104
01:02:01,640 --> 01:02:03,920
But again, those are turn of the
century people. 

1105
01:02:04,200 --> 01:02:06,040
Not that you, you know, 
whatever. 

1106
01:02:06,040 --> 01:02:09,400
But you can. 
You know, I can do it, but it 

1107
01:02:09,400 --> 01:02:11,880
seems like most of society can't
separate the art from the 

1108
01:02:11,880 --> 01:02:14,840
artists. 
Not that we need to be, like, 

1109
01:02:14,840 --> 01:02:17,080
excusing terrible, disgusting 
behavior. 

1110
01:02:17,080 --> 01:02:20,200
But somebody, if we're gonna 
read Marcus Aurelius's 

1111
01:02:20,200 --> 01:02:22,360
Meditations and there's 
something in there that we don't

1112
01:02:22,360 --> 01:02:24,400
like, are we gonna be like, oh, 
this is the whole thing's 

1113
01:02:24,400 --> 01:02:26,560
garbage? 
No, you you don't do that. 

1114
01:02:27,080 --> 01:02:30,240
I agree, and I'm definitely a a 
big fan of. 

1115
01:02:31,040 --> 01:02:33,840
I I will always, if I get into 
somebody, I always Google like 

1116
01:02:33,840 --> 01:02:36,480
debunking this person or 
criticisms of this person 

1117
01:02:36,480 --> 01:02:38,040
because I want to know both 
sides. 

1118
01:02:38,040 --> 01:02:41,280
And yeah, there's definitely 
stuff that you can talk about 

1119
01:02:41,280 --> 01:02:45,080
with Steiner and these people. 
But again, I I just, you know, 

1120
01:02:46,440 --> 01:02:49,000
if you read Steiner's philosophy
of freedom, he actually 

1121
01:02:49,000 --> 01:02:52,720
addresses some of that stuff and
you know his. 

1122
01:02:53,680 --> 01:02:56,120
Point of view is that this, if 
the human being is free, then it

1123
01:02:56,120 --> 01:02:59,840
can be free of all of these 
sociological, psychological, 

1124
01:03:00,240 --> 01:03:03,880
historical, racial, all that 
stuff is falls away if you're 

1125
01:03:03,880 --> 01:03:06,080
talking about true freedom. 
And I I think, you know, 

1126
01:03:06,080 --> 01:03:07,720
Steiner's got a beautiful point 
of view on that. 

1127
01:03:07,720 --> 01:03:12,400
So yeah, I yeah, exactly. 
No, I'm I'm down. 

1128
01:03:12,400 --> 01:03:21,240
We'll do the episode on it. 
And so the bicameral mind, I'm 

1129
01:03:21,240 --> 01:03:24,120
putting it on the shelf as 
something kind of credit. 

1130
01:03:24,120 --> 01:03:29,360
Like I'll still need to go 
digest what it, what it was 

1131
01:03:29,360 --> 01:03:32,320
when, you know, I've finished 
reading it, I don't know, four 

1132
01:03:32,320 --> 01:03:35,400
or five days ago. 
And since then I've like thought

1133
01:03:35,400 --> 01:03:37,760
about all these like other 
things that I've read or like 

1134
01:03:37,760 --> 01:03:40,360
theories and stuff like that and
how it plays off of that. 

1135
01:03:40,360 --> 01:03:42,120
So I still think I need to 
digest it. 

1136
01:03:42,120 --> 01:03:44,840
So we could even maybe even do 
another episode on this as well 

1137
01:03:44,840 --> 01:03:47,360
as what I was going to say. 
Yeah, we can definitely do that,

1138
01:03:47,360 --> 01:03:49,600
'cause like you said, they're 3 
thirds of the book, and we've 

1139
01:03:49,600 --> 01:03:51,800
kind of touched on some of it, 
but there's definitely more we 

1140
01:03:51,800 --> 01:03:53,200
can dive into. 
Oh, there's a ton. 

1141
01:03:53,200 --> 01:03:56,960
I mean, it's it's there's a lot,
'cause even it's not the biggest

1142
01:03:56,960 --> 01:03:57,960
book. 
I mean, it's big, but it's not 

1143
01:03:57,960 --> 01:04:03,240
the biggest book in the world. 
But the the content is so like 

1144
01:04:03,240 --> 01:04:05,880
alt like mind altering, you 
know, in itself. 

1145
01:04:06,080 --> 01:04:08,280
So. 
Yeah, it'd be fun maybe to dig 

1146
01:04:08,280 --> 01:04:13,000
into like, the role of the 
ziggurat and the role of idols 

1147
01:04:13,000 --> 01:04:15,760
and then the role of, you know, 
wildlife. 

1148
01:04:16,400 --> 01:04:18,960
Yeah, like that part. 
Yeah, let's definitely talk 

1149
01:04:18,960 --> 01:04:20,440
about that next time for. 
Sure. 

1150
01:04:20,440 --> 01:04:21,240
Yeah. 
Yeah. 

1151
01:04:21,240 --> 01:04:22,680
That could be fun. 
And I think you're right. 

1152
01:04:22,680 --> 01:04:25,160
We could both brush up on it 
again, because there's so much 

1153
01:04:25,160 --> 01:04:27,400
information in that book so that
we're ready to talk about it. 

1154
01:04:27,400 --> 01:04:28,240
That sounds great. 
Yeah. 

1155
01:04:28,280 --> 01:04:32,320
Yeah, cool. 
Is there anything we wanted to 

1156
01:04:32,320 --> 01:04:33,960
hit on here before we wrap it 
up? 

1157
01:04:34,640 --> 01:04:37,760
No, I think I I I mean, I yeah, 
we we, I think it's great. 

1158
01:04:37,760 --> 01:04:39,800
We can always do another 
episode, but I feel pretty good.

1159
01:04:39,800 --> 01:04:43,680
I got to mention, you know, it's
not just Jane's, but a whole. 

1160
01:04:44,160 --> 01:04:45,960
And, you know, a whole bunch of 
people talking about 

1161
01:04:45,960 --> 01:04:50,720
consciousness, talking about, 
and well, did we ever talk about

1162
01:04:50,720 --> 01:04:54,880
Doctor Claire Graves? 
I talked about with somebody 

1163
01:04:54,880 --> 01:04:59,800
else, but that is you didn't. 
Mention it. 

1164
01:05:00,720 --> 01:05:05,120
That one is, you know, there's a
book called Spiral Dynamics that

1165
01:05:05,120 --> 01:05:06,680
was written by these other two 
guys. 

1166
01:05:06,680 --> 01:05:10,160
But Doctor Claire Graves was a 
professor at a university, I 

1167
01:05:10,160 --> 01:05:15,560
want to say somewhere in like 
Ohio or something that came up 

1168
01:05:15,560 --> 01:05:17,840
with this thing. 
There's like 8 things. 

1169
01:05:17,840 --> 01:05:21,400
And you your consciousness as it
evolves like swings, like a 

1170
01:05:21,400 --> 01:05:24,080
pendulum, like you'll go from 
like theistic thinking to non 

1171
01:05:24,080 --> 01:05:27,160
theistic thinking to, you know, 
it just goes, starts going back 

1172
01:05:27,160 --> 01:05:28,680
and forth. 
And then you get to a point 

1173
01:05:28,680 --> 01:05:32,880
where your consciousness is so 
evolved you're recognizing the 

1174
01:05:32,880 --> 01:05:36,720
patterns that lead to 
interactions and behaviors and 

1175
01:05:36,720 --> 01:05:39,440
things like that where you can 
predict things that are gonna 

1176
01:05:39,440 --> 01:05:41,320
happen. 
I mean I do that because I have 

1177
01:05:41,320 --> 01:05:45,240
OCD sometimes because it's like 
a like a almost like a defense 

1178
01:05:45,240 --> 01:05:48,120
mechanism when you're in the 
heightened state of. 

1179
01:05:48,880 --> 01:05:52,840
But this talks about how you can
achieve that as like a regular 

1180
01:05:52,840 --> 01:05:55,360
state of being and like you know
that kind of a thing. 

1181
01:05:55,360 --> 01:05:57,440
So it's a it's a really 
interesting way of looking. 

1182
01:05:57,440 --> 01:05:58,680
I haven't looked at it in a 
while. 

1183
01:05:58,680 --> 01:06:02,120
I think that it's kind of got 
also got like a cult following, 

1184
01:06:02,120 --> 01:06:04,360
but something interesting to 
look into all. 

1185
01:06:05,080 --> 01:06:08,520
Right, 1177 BC Claire. 
Yeah, I've got, I've got my list

1186
01:06:08,520 --> 01:06:14,520
going, so thank you for that. 
Yeah, well I mean that's that's 

1187
01:06:14,520 --> 01:06:18,240
about it here, Let's wrap it up 
please, one more time, go check 

1188
01:06:18,240 --> 01:06:20,880
out a Tischler glass on 
Instagram. 

1189
01:06:20,880 --> 01:06:24,240
He's super active on there. 
I always add his stuff to my 

1190
01:06:24,240 --> 01:06:28,360
story when I see it and as well 
I've, you know I've been 

1191
01:06:28,360 --> 01:06:31,760
supporting the the glass art 
community lately pretty hard. 

1192
01:06:33,400 --> 01:06:35,920
It's something that I've I've 
actually been collecting 

1193
01:06:36,680 --> 01:06:39,840
functional and non functional 
pieces since I was like 19. 

1194
01:06:39,840 --> 01:06:46,280
So I think I got my first Bowl 
on fish tour at IT festival. 

1195
01:06:46,840 --> 01:06:49,840
That was 2003. 
Two thousand such. 

1196
01:06:50,040 --> 01:06:53,040
A small world. 
It's amazing, yeah. 

1197
01:06:53,120 --> 01:06:56,680
But yeah, man, I, I it's crazy 
that we're talking about this. 

1198
01:06:56,680 --> 01:07:00,360
And you know, you're into a lot 
of the same stuff as me, so 

1199
01:07:00,360 --> 01:07:02,680
you're welcome on anytime. 
Of course, I know it's been a 

1200
01:07:02,680 --> 01:07:04,680
while since you've been on, but 
don't be a stranger. 

1201
01:07:04,680 --> 01:07:07,880
Obviously we'll try and get the 
Steiner one in Part 2 of this. 

1202
01:07:08,520 --> 01:07:12,680
And yeah, everybody go go buy a 
a terp set or a marble right 

1203
01:07:12,680 --> 01:07:15,080
now. 
He'll hook you up bro. 

1204
01:07:15,080 --> 01:07:16,440
I'm. 
I'm going to return. 

1205
01:07:17,240 --> 01:07:19,480
I'm going to return the favor 
because since I've been on, 

1206
01:07:19,480 --> 01:07:22,960
you've done 200 episodes and 
you've had some really big names

1207
01:07:22,960 --> 01:07:26,200
on this show like that kind of 
surprised me a couple of times. 

1208
01:07:26,200 --> 01:07:27,960
That's amazing. 
And all the hard work you're 

1209
01:07:27,960 --> 01:07:29,960
putting in, it is not easy to do
what you do. 

1210
01:07:30,360 --> 01:07:34,760
So it's awesome to see and it's 
great to be back on. 

1211
01:07:35,160 --> 01:07:38,040
With this like new evolved 
platform and yeah, so thanks for

1212
01:07:38,040 --> 01:07:40,040
having me. 
Thanks for all the time you put 

1213
01:07:40,040 --> 01:07:42,360
in. 
Like I would never have been 

1214
01:07:42,360 --> 01:07:44,760
able to have this conversation 
if it wasn't for you putting out

1215
01:07:44,760 --> 01:07:47,800
that content. 
So oh man, I'm I'm all about 

1216
01:07:47,800 --> 01:07:51,160
connecting with people and 
interesting things. 

1217
01:07:51,160 --> 01:07:53,640
And dude, thank you so much for 
your kind words. 

1218
01:07:53,640 --> 01:07:56,520
And if anybody wants to support 
Mind Escape, the best way to do 

1219
01:07:56,520 --> 01:08:00,040
it is to go to our link tree 
link down below. 

1220
01:08:00,040 --> 01:08:02,760
It's got every time we got a 
merch store with designs that I 

1221
01:08:02,760 --> 01:08:07,040
created. 
We've got Patreon with exclusive

1222
01:08:07,040 --> 01:08:09,480
episodes. 
You know some of the people he 

1223
01:08:09,480 --> 01:08:12,400
just mentioned, Rick Strassman 
and Randall Carlson. 

1224
01:08:13,240 --> 01:08:16,000
And a lot of these big, big name
people are on there as well. 

1225
01:08:17,640 --> 01:08:19,200
And what else? 
Oh, go check out our 

1226
01:08:19,200 --> 01:08:21,479
documentary. 
It's free on YouTube right now. 

1227
01:08:22,160 --> 01:08:26,760
It is called As Within, So 
Without from UFOs to DMT. 

1228
01:08:27,439 --> 01:08:31,000
There is an extended cut on our 
Patreon as well for 777. 

1229
01:08:31,680 --> 01:08:34,720
You get the exclusive content 
with that as well, and I'm just 

1230
01:08:34,720 --> 01:08:36,760
trying to think the easiest way 
to support the show. 

1231
01:08:37,600 --> 01:08:41,560
If you can't spare any goodies 
our way would be just to leave 

1232
01:08:41,560 --> 01:08:44,520
us a nice review on Apple 
Podcast or Spotify. 

1233
01:08:44,520 --> 01:08:47,600
We do do all of our episodes 
live on our YouTube channel, 

1234
01:08:47,600 --> 01:08:50,439
please subscribe to that. 
But we also have our video 

1235
01:08:50,439 --> 01:08:52,840
episodes on Spotify. 
If you're not checking that out,

1236
01:08:52,840 --> 01:08:56,040
please do that as well. 
It's in 4K. 

1237
01:08:56,040 --> 01:08:58,200
We're really pulling out all the
stops here. 

1238
01:08:58,200 --> 01:09:01,720
So oh, I'm working on a new 
song. 

1239
01:09:01,720 --> 01:09:04,840
It's super sick love where it's 
going. 

1240
01:09:05,240 --> 01:09:09,920
Should be ready maybe by next 
week in a new video being worked

1241
01:09:09,920 --> 01:09:14,279
on here eventually by Maurice C 
Yeah, that's that's right. 

1242
01:09:14,279 --> 01:09:17,160
Maurice is still alive. 
He might be. 

1243
01:09:17,240 --> 01:09:19,000
He might be on one time. 
I don't know. 

1244
01:09:20,240 --> 01:09:25,240
But yeah, so look for all that. 
But listen, we got to wrap it up

1245
01:09:25,240 --> 01:09:26,880
here. 
We love you. 

1246
01:09:26,960 --> 01:09:29,800
We love everybody. 
Please stay safe out there. 

1247
01:09:29,800 --> 01:09:31,479
Spread love. 
Spread kindness. 

1248
01:09:32,040 --> 01:09:34,640
Don't don't listen to what's on 
the news. 

1249
01:09:34,640 --> 01:09:38,040
It's garbage. 
So just spread love and peace 

1250
01:09:38,040 --> 01:09:41,720
and yeah, that's it. 
Love everybody. 

1251
01:09:41,720 --> 01:09:43,359
Stay safe out there. 
We'll catch you next time. 

1252
01:09:43,960 --> 01:10:14,480
Peace 
the.