1 00:00:16,309 --> 00:00:21,310 Welcome to Mind Escape. Are you ready? 2 00:00:24,550 --> 00:00:28,470 Are you ready to escape your mind? 3 00:00:49,030 --> 00:00:52,430 Hello Mind Escapees, if you have not already, please go check out 4 00:00:52,430 --> 00:00:54,950 my other channel Masters of Rhetoric. 5 00:00:54,950 --> 00:00:57,430 I will have the link down below. It's also part of the Mind 6 00:00:57,430 --> 00:01:00,710 escape link tree link. It's something I'm very 7 00:01:00,710 --> 00:01:05,349 passionate about where I dissect the origins of Western thought 8 00:01:05,349 --> 00:01:09,480 through the pre Socratic thinkers all the way to 9 00:01:09,520 --> 00:01:11,240 Aristotle. And I'm probably going to go 10 00:01:11,240 --> 00:01:12,960 beyond that as well at some point. 11 00:01:12,960 --> 00:01:15,120 So please support Masters of Rhetoric. 12 00:01:15,800 --> 00:01:17,880 Go check out our YouTube channel and subscribe. 13 00:01:17,880 --> 00:01:21,600 There's tons of shorts on there already as well as episodes and 14 00:01:21,600 --> 00:01:23,200 there's a bunch of episodes lined up. 15 00:01:23,560 --> 00:01:25,760 I'm on all audio platforms with it. 16 00:01:25,960 --> 00:01:29,320 And if you're on TikTok, Instagram X, or any of the 17 00:01:29,320 --> 00:01:31,960 social media platforms, please go check out our page on there 18 00:01:31,960 --> 00:01:34,160 as well. I'd really appreciate it. 19 00:01:34,440 --> 00:01:36,600 Thank you. Tonight we have an amazing 20 00:01:36,600 --> 00:01:39,280 episode. I mean, let's face it, most of 21 00:01:39,280 --> 00:01:42,800 them are amazing, but I really enjoyed this conversation. 22 00:01:43,320 --> 00:01:47,640 I am joined by Keith Thompson, who is an author, independent 23 00:01:47,640 --> 00:01:53,240 journalist, talk radio host, former TV talk show host, and 24 00:01:53,240 --> 00:01:55,360 former U.S. Senate staff member. 25 00:01:55,600 --> 00:01:59,960 His articles have appeared in the New York Times, Esquire, and 26 00:01:59,960 --> 00:02:03,840 the San Francisco Chronicle. He is the author of Angels and 27 00:02:03,840 --> 00:02:07,480 Aliens, which the San Francisco Chronicle dubbed the most 28 00:02:07,480 --> 00:02:11,800 fascinating book written on the subject, and he's also written 29 00:02:11,800 --> 00:02:15,800 the book The UFO Paradox, which we'll be focusing on today. 30 00:02:16,240 --> 00:02:19,600 If you are interested in Keith's books, please click the link 31 00:02:19,600 --> 00:02:23,800 down below at the bottom and sit back and enjoy. 32 00:02:25,480 --> 00:02:27,720 Hey Keith, welcome to Mind Escape. 33 00:02:27,720 --> 00:02:30,440 How are you? It's I'm doing well. 34 00:02:30,440 --> 00:02:32,320 I'm glad to be with you. I'm looking forward to our 35 00:02:32,320 --> 00:02:35,640 conversation. As am I, as am I. 36 00:02:36,040 --> 00:02:40,680 I really appreciated your book The UFO Paradox. 37 00:02:41,440 --> 00:02:45,240 I have yet to read Angels and Aliens, but I look forward to 38 00:02:45,240 --> 00:02:49,280 reading that as well here soon. Why don't you give us a little 39 00:02:49,280 --> 00:02:53,760 bit of your background on how you got into the UFO topic and 40 00:02:53,760 --> 00:02:59,800 got interested in this field? OK, I'm, I'm one person who does 41 00:02:59,800 --> 00:03:03,960 not come into it with a UFO experience, you know, of my own 42 00:03:03,960 --> 00:03:08,120 that I struggled with an abduction like say, Whitley 43 00:03:08,120 --> 00:03:14,680 Strieber or, or and I did not come at it like Budd Hopkins or 44 00:03:14,680 --> 00:03:17,960 David Jacobs, the two researchers who, you know, work 45 00:03:17,960 --> 00:03:20,480 with abductees to try to find a common pattern. 46 00:03:21,080 --> 00:03:27,160 I really came at it from, from this, from the standpoint of 47 00:03:27,720 --> 00:03:30,280 really asking fundamental questions about philosophy and 48 00:03:30,280 --> 00:03:34,120 about the nature of reality. I've always been interested in 49 00:03:34,120 --> 00:03:36,560 those questions. I've always had a, a really, I 50 00:03:36,560 --> 00:03:39,400 guess the word, the salience. They've really had a resonance 51 00:03:39,400 --> 00:03:44,760 for me going back to experiences of my own, which led me to start 52 00:03:44,760 --> 00:03:48,600 reading philosophers and thinkers like Alan Watts, for 53 00:03:48,600 --> 00:03:54,040 example, and to make sense of my own experiences. 54 00:03:54,560 --> 00:03:59,120 The UFO phenomenon. Well, I'll tell you really how I 55 00:03:59,120 --> 00:04:01,080 got into the UFO phenomenon specifically. 56 00:04:01,080 --> 00:04:05,000 I was, I'm an independent journalist and author and I, I 57 00:04:05,000 --> 00:04:08,640 would say my, one of my first journalistic assignments was as 58 00:04:08,640 --> 00:04:12,600 a, as an elementary school student. 59 00:04:13,160 --> 00:04:17,240 I it was my turn to give a current events report in my 6th 60 00:04:17,240 --> 00:04:20,880 grade class. The idea was every student would 61 00:04:20,880 --> 00:04:24,600 have would take a turn to stand up and bring in news, news 62 00:04:24,600 --> 00:04:28,240 clippings, a background of the story and sort of tell it, tell 63 00:04:28,240 --> 00:04:30,600 it to the class and why it interested them. 64 00:04:30,600 --> 00:04:34,840 And the idea wasn't to do it as a reporter, but it seemed to be 65 00:04:34,920 --> 00:04:38,840 a natural way to approach it. I guess I've always had an 66 00:04:38,840 --> 00:04:44,320 instinct to based on following reporters like Walter Cronkite, 67 00:04:44,320 --> 00:04:48,560 the legendary CBS News reporter from the 60s and 70s, I think 68 00:04:48,560 --> 00:04:53,400 even into the 80s, I always had a certain draw to their, you 69 00:04:53,400 --> 00:04:55,720 know, to telling the telling the news. 70 00:04:56,160 --> 00:04:59,720 So in this case, there I was growing up in Northwest Ohio. 71 00:05:00,160 --> 00:05:05,800 There was a sighting in Michigan around a college campus and it 72 00:05:05,800 --> 00:05:09,000 lasted for about 3 or 4 days. Continuous sightings of lights 73 00:05:09,000 --> 00:05:13,240 and objects that were anomalous didn't make sense, didn't fit a 74 00:05:13,240 --> 00:05:16,640 pattern. And AI told the story to the 75 00:05:16,640 --> 00:05:21,000 class about how a Pentagon consultant named Jay Allen 76 00:05:21,000 --> 00:05:26,080 Hynek, who became legendary in the UFO field, flew into 77 00:05:27,000 --> 00:05:29,800 Michigan and did what he was supposed to do. 78 00:05:29,800 --> 00:05:34,680 He he was hired by the Pentagon basically to be the front to, 79 00:05:34,680 --> 00:05:38,320 to, to front for, you know, to, to be the face for the public 80 00:05:38,320 --> 00:05:40,160 response, the government response. 81 00:05:40,320 --> 00:05:44,160 What he didn't really understand when he signed on to that was 82 00:05:44,160 --> 00:05:46,680 that they expected him to explain all of these things 83 00:05:46,680 --> 00:05:50,880 away. He, being an astronomer, thought 84 00:05:50,880 --> 00:05:54,440 his job was to tell the truth, and he understood. 85 00:05:54,440 --> 00:05:57,040 There was a tension that he understood the government was 86 00:05:57,040 --> 00:06:00,040 not eager to say there was something in the sky that didn't 87 00:06:00,040 --> 00:06:04,160 seem to belong there or didn't have an explanation in 88 00:06:04,160 --> 00:06:07,640 conventional, reassuring terms. But he said, ultimately, that's 89 00:06:07,640 --> 00:06:10,280 not my job. I'm not here to be a front man. 90 00:06:10,560 --> 00:06:15,880 I'm here to present my analysis so he. 91 00:06:16,440 --> 00:06:18,560 That was Project Blue Book too, by the way. 92 00:06:18,880 --> 00:06:23,080 Yeah, Project Blue Book. And he, he, he came, he came to 93 00:06:23,080 --> 00:06:26,280 feel, he, he came to Michigan, he traveled around, had probably 94 00:06:26,280 --> 00:06:28,440 had a driver. He went to all the places where 95 00:06:28,440 --> 00:06:32,400 the sightings had happened, including to an A place on the 96 00:06:32,400 --> 00:06:39,640 edge of town, a marsh or swamp, and the the word swamp is also 97 00:06:39,640 --> 00:06:44,560 legendary in the UFO field. Thanks in this case to Jay Allen 98 00:06:44,560 --> 00:06:49,560 Hynek, who concluded that at least it was a possibility that 99 00:06:49,640 --> 00:06:55,120 one of the sightings could have been, and he put it very, very 100 00:06:55,560 --> 00:07:00,080 conditionally, could have been swamp gas, which is a natural 101 00:07:00,080 --> 00:07:05,880 phenomenon in which decaying vegetation around a swamp will 102 00:07:05,880 --> 00:07:11,680 give off luminous phenomena. So he at a news conference which 103 00:07:11,680 --> 00:07:15,280 he called, which is called to for the purpose of summarizing 104 00:07:15,280 --> 00:07:19,000 what he found, he referred to that he said it is at least 105 00:07:19,000 --> 00:07:22,200 possible. We can't exclude the possibility 106 00:07:22,200 --> 00:07:26,680 that one of the sightings in this in this collection of 107 00:07:26,680 --> 00:07:30,200 sightings might have been swamp gas, marsh gas. 108 00:07:30,760 --> 00:07:36,320 He was instantly mortified when before he barely gotten that 109 00:07:36,320 --> 00:07:41,760 phrase out of his mouth when the reporters jumped out of their, 110 00:07:42,000 --> 00:07:45,040 you know, their metal seats, the chairs that had been assembled 111 00:07:45,040 --> 00:07:48,680 in the auditorium and went out to what were in those days pay 112 00:07:48,680 --> 00:07:52,440 Tele, a Bank of pay telephone calls that they they called 113 00:07:52,440 --> 00:07:56,000 their their news bureaus and said, Pentagon says it's all 114 00:07:56,000 --> 00:08:00,960 swamp gas, which is not what he said, but it was understood as 115 00:08:00,960 --> 00:08:05,200 what he said. So to to bring this idea to kind 116 00:08:05,200 --> 00:08:08,640 of bring it home from my own interest, that fascinated me. 117 00:08:09,280 --> 00:08:13,840 It fascinated me that he put out something conditionally and that 118 00:08:13,840 --> 00:08:17,040 there was such a an instantaneous interpretation of 119 00:08:17,040 --> 00:08:19,760 what he'd said. It was when I, even as a young 120 00:08:19,760 --> 00:08:23,520 person, 12 years old, I knew that this was part of the story, 121 00:08:23,960 --> 00:08:27,760 that this was about stories, what's credible, what's 122 00:08:27,760 --> 00:08:31,160 believable, and that people approach this phenomenon with 123 00:08:31,160 --> 00:08:33,440 beliefs. They weren't as objective as 124 00:08:33,440 --> 00:08:36,280 they thought. So I was drawn into the 125 00:08:36,480 --> 00:08:39,400 structure of the stories. In the same way that one reads a 126 00:08:39,400 --> 00:08:41,799 good novel. If it's a good novel, you want 127 00:08:41,799 --> 00:08:45,160 to keep reading, you want to identify with the protagonists, 128 00:08:45,160 --> 00:08:48,040 attempt to make sense of of the case. 129 00:08:48,520 --> 00:08:53,640 So I, I told my class about this and when it came time for 130 00:08:53,640 --> 00:08:57,840 questions, one of my classmates said, what do you think they 131 00:08:57,840 --> 00:09:01,000 saw? And I said, I don't know. 132 00:09:02,040 --> 00:09:04,320 I said it very honestly. And I, and I, and I, it was 133 00:09:04,320 --> 00:09:08,120 because I didn't have a, a dog in the fight or dog in the hunt. 134 00:09:09,120 --> 00:09:11,560 Not knowing seemed to me, but I did say this. 135 00:09:12,120 --> 00:09:17,920 I said it did not seem that swamp gas was a accurate 136 00:09:17,920 --> 00:09:20,360 representation, the best interpretation. 137 00:09:20,360 --> 00:09:22,240 But again, that isn't what Hynek saw. 138 00:09:22,800 --> 00:09:26,840 I was struck even with my my classmates, they didn't want 139 00:09:26,840 --> 00:09:30,280 those those subtleties either. Yes, but do you think, Keith, it 140 00:09:30,280 --> 00:09:33,240 was a flying saucer? Was it aliens? 141 00:09:33,920 --> 00:09:36,240 And I kind of stuttered a little bit, stammered. 142 00:09:36,240 --> 00:09:38,600 I said, well, that's what some people, I mean, you know, that's 143 00:09:38,600 --> 00:09:40,960 what some people think. Well, what do you think? 144 00:09:41,240 --> 00:09:43,440 At this point? My teacher came up to the front, 145 00:09:43,440 --> 00:09:46,400 said Keith, thank you for you've really handled this well. 146 00:09:46,800 --> 00:09:49,360 I said, oh, really? She said, yes, you, you were 147 00:09:49,360 --> 00:09:51,920 holding the ground for it's OK not to know. 148 00:09:52,800 --> 00:09:56,560 It's OK not to have answers. And she said class, What Keith 149 00:09:56,560 --> 00:10:00,160 is saying is it's important to keep an open mind and ask 150 00:10:00,160 --> 00:10:04,720 relevant questions, follow the evidence wherever it leads in 151 00:10:04,720 --> 00:10:07,920 anything, whether it's something that's mysterious and 152 00:10:07,920 --> 00:10:10,920 controversial like UFOs or anything else in life. 153 00:10:11,360 --> 00:10:14,520 Well, I have to tell you, that was like a benediction for me. 154 00:10:14,920 --> 00:10:18,560 It was like a blessing to be 12 years old and to have an adult, 155 00:10:18,840 --> 00:10:22,800 your teacher, give you that kind of a pat on the back and say 156 00:10:22,800 --> 00:10:26,280 you've brought a discerning awareness to this. 157 00:10:26,720 --> 00:10:28,800 She, she, she called me Mr. Thompson. 158 00:10:29,280 --> 00:10:33,120 And then she said, Mr. Thompson, you have the makings of a, of a 159 00:10:33,640 --> 00:10:37,440 scientist or maybe a detective or reporter. 160 00:10:37,720 --> 00:10:39,960 Again, follow the evidence wherever it leads. 161 00:10:39,960 --> 00:10:42,000 Well, that's a nice, that's a nice selection. 162 00:10:42,400 --> 00:10:46,920 A reporter, a detective or scientist, all of all of whom 163 00:10:46,920 --> 00:10:50,040 are committed to the idea of getting at the truth of things, 164 00:10:50,040 --> 00:10:53,280 at least in principle. Journalism is supposed to look 165 00:10:53,280 --> 00:10:56,280 at all sides. Science is not supposed to have 166 00:10:56,280 --> 00:11:00,800 a be wedded to a preconceived conclusion with we've generally 167 00:11:00,800 --> 00:11:02,440 thought that's what religion is about. 168 00:11:02,960 --> 00:11:05,960 And science was supposed to be a different way of knowing based 169 00:11:05,960 --> 00:11:08,360 on empirical evidence. And the same with being a 170 00:11:08,360 --> 00:11:10,760 detective. And what kind of detective would 171 00:11:10,760 --> 00:11:14,720 in in advance say, well, I'm going to exclude that hypothesis 172 00:11:15,320 --> 00:11:19,520 because it doesn't appeal to me. No, whatever the hypo good 173 00:11:19,520 --> 00:11:21,880 detective doesn't exclude anything in advance. 174 00:11:22,280 --> 00:11:25,960 Maybe the Butler did it. So I wrote my first book, Angels 175 00:11:25,960 --> 00:11:30,200 and Aliens more than a couple of decades ago. 176 00:11:30,320 --> 00:11:34,760 And in that book I explored the parallels between the the 177 00:11:34,760 --> 00:11:38,920 phenomena and the figures from myth, especially Greek myth. 178 00:11:39,560 --> 00:11:46,760 So, and attempted to show that at this at that point, all of 179 00:11:46,760 --> 00:11:51,040 our best efforts to explain UFOs ultimately revealed more about 180 00:11:51,080 --> 00:11:53,920 who we are. That's a big part of my approach 181 00:11:53,920 --> 00:11:57,520 to this is namely that we like black and white solutions, but a 182 00:11:57,520 --> 00:12:02,000 lot of life is Gray. And I just so I, I, I'll 183 00:12:02,000 --> 00:12:08,120 conclude this by saying I'm been at this UFO game for quite some 184 00:12:08,120 --> 00:12:11,400 time and I'm still not at all reluctant to say I don't know 185 00:12:11,400 --> 00:12:14,920 what a UFO is. I know that extraterrestrial, 186 00:12:14,920 --> 00:12:18,200 the extraterrestrial hypothesis is still, you know, the most 187 00:12:18,200 --> 00:12:21,720 popular interpretation. But I think there's a huge 188 00:12:22,800 --> 00:12:25,680 overlap between these phenomena and the paranormal. 189 00:12:26,480 --> 00:12:29,720 And I think the philosophical implications of the paranormal 190 00:12:29,720 --> 00:12:33,080 are important because mainstream materialist science says, well, 191 00:12:33,080 --> 00:12:36,960 the paranormal can't be real. Well, why can't it be real? 192 00:12:38,320 --> 00:12:43,680 It's a, it's a, a body of data that challenges our assumptions. 193 00:12:44,400 --> 00:12:46,960 So in any case, that that that's really how I began it. 194 00:12:46,960 --> 00:12:50,240 And I wrote my follow up book last last year called The UFO 195 00:12:50,240 --> 00:12:52,520 Paradox, which we can talk about as well. 196 00:12:53,440 --> 00:12:56,600 Yeah, I like I said, I identified a lot with the UFO 197 00:12:56,600 --> 00:12:59,360 paradox. I've had my own weird 198 00:12:59,360 --> 00:13:03,640 experiences in the sighting, but you know, I'm very familiar with 199 00:13:03,640 --> 00:13:08,200 altered States and the consciousness side of things. 200 00:13:08,200 --> 00:13:12,520 And even when I was when my cousin Maurice and I were making 201 00:13:12,520 --> 00:13:18,520 our documentary as within so without from UFOs to DMT, you 202 00:13:18,520 --> 00:13:22,360 know, I realized there was always an element of weirdness 203 00:13:22,360 --> 00:13:25,240 with the sightings. It was never like a fully 204 00:13:25,240 --> 00:13:29,480 conscious sunny day outside. You know, there's oh, I woke up 205 00:13:29,480 --> 00:13:35,040 from a dream or I was under the influence of something or, you 206 00:13:35,040 --> 00:13:37,680 know, there was always something connected to the experience. 207 00:13:37,680 --> 00:13:40,960 Very rarely do you hear about an experience where somebody's like 208 00:13:41,360 --> 00:13:45,080 dead sober and it's broad daylight and there's a million 209 00:13:45,080 --> 00:13:48,440 people around which there are some and we can talk about that. 210 00:13:48,440 --> 00:13:52,520 You have it in your book, the Ruah, Zimbabwe one. 211 00:13:52,520 --> 00:13:57,240 But you know, you, you explained your your origin story 212 00:13:57,240 --> 00:13:59,400 perfectly. And I appreciate that you read 213 00:13:59,400 --> 00:14:04,200 your own book 2 for Audible. I think that you have a good 214 00:14:04,200 --> 00:14:07,920 voice for it. And it was it was a good listen. 215 00:14:10,360 --> 00:14:13,240 You talk about the kind of Tharnold sighting is kind of 216 00:14:13,240 --> 00:14:16,080 like it right after you talk about the Ann Arbor swamp gas 217 00:14:16,080 --> 00:14:21,520 stuff and how the media misinterpreted his words to 218 00:14:21,520 --> 00:14:24,280 describe the sighting. And then all the sudden, you 219 00:14:24,280 --> 00:14:26,520 know, that kicked off a misunderstanding. 220 00:14:28,560 --> 00:14:31,800 You know, the term flying saucer just stuck. 221 00:14:31,920 --> 00:14:34,240 And then, you know, kind of like what you were describing 222 00:14:34,480 --> 00:14:37,840 everybody getting on the phone about the swamp gas, something 223 00:14:37,840 --> 00:14:42,120 very similar happened. And as humans, we have a knack 224 00:14:42,120 --> 00:14:46,600 for playing telephone quickly. Do you think that that this 225 00:14:46,600 --> 00:14:51,440 modern myth got kind of set off on the wrong foot because later 226 00:14:51,440 --> 00:14:54,040 on you describe his daughter saying that he thought they 227 00:14:54,040 --> 00:14:59,320 looked more like flying sting alive Stingrays or something 228 00:14:59,320 --> 00:15:02,200 along those lines. So do you think that we kind of 229 00:15:03,400 --> 00:15:07,680 got this image stuck in our head and then that got the myth going 230 00:15:07,680 --> 00:15:10,240 and then kind of almost like a mind virus, if you will? 231 00:15:10,960 --> 00:15:15,080 That's a great question. I when I talk about the mythic 232 00:15:15,080 --> 00:15:19,520 structure of the UFO sightings, people often hear me say, oh, 233 00:15:19,520 --> 00:15:23,360 then you're a debunker. You think they're just myth and 234 00:15:23,360 --> 00:15:25,200 I go, no, that's, that's not what I'm saying. 235 00:15:25,200 --> 00:15:26,680 But thank you for raising that question. 236 00:15:26,680 --> 00:15:29,240 Let's see if we can broaden the conversation. 237 00:15:29,240 --> 00:15:30,480 Myth. Yes, does. 238 00:15:30,480 --> 00:15:35,000 It's common, common language and politics my opponent has 239 00:15:35,000 --> 00:15:39,720 purveyed is purveying myths, which means falsehoods, 240 00:15:40,400 --> 00:15:43,840 fabrications. But myth refers in its original 241 00:15:43,840 --> 00:15:47,920 sense to a kind of story, kind of narrative that goes much 242 00:15:47,920 --> 00:15:52,240 deeper than just true or false. It it speaks deeply to the human 243 00:15:52,240 --> 00:15:54,520 psyche. It's highly symbolic. 244 00:15:54,880 --> 00:15:59,280 So I just, I described Kenneth Arnold, who was a deputy sheriff 245 00:15:59,520 --> 00:16:04,080 who was in a private airplane one day, 1947 June, I think June 246 00:16:04,080 --> 00:16:09,920 25th, if I recall the day he, he saw out, you know, ahead of him 247 00:16:10,520 --> 00:16:14,480 9 objects flying in formation at a he was a very good pilot. 248 00:16:14,480 --> 00:16:17,440 He knew how to configure speed, calibrate speed. 249 00:16:17,800 --> 00:16:21,240 He, I don't remember the speed at the moment, but he said that 250 00:16:21,240 --> 00:16:26,160 we're going much faster than anything we could, could make 251 00:16:26,160 --> 00:16:30,400 sense of. And he, so he called into the 252 00:16:30,760 --> 00:16:33,400 called into the tower. What? 253 00:16:33,760 --> 00:16:38,720 What I'm seeing looks like this. Do you have any craft that meet 254 00:16:38,720 --> 00:16:42,520 this description? They said no, and they said so 255 00:16:42,520 --> 00:16:44,720 with a kind of quizzical attitude. 256 00:16:44,720 --> 00:16:47,400 Like we know Ken Arnold, we work with him. 257 00:16:47,400 --> 00:16:50,080 He calls in regularly. He's a pilot, but he's 258 00:16:50,080 --> 00:16:52,320 describing something that makes no sense at all. 259 00:16:52,760 --> 00:16:54,720 I wonder if he maybe is a little off. 260 00:16:55,440 --> 00:16:57,280 That's really what began to happen. 261 00:16:57,280 --> 00:17:00,480 So he landed at one of his maybe in Oregon. 262 00:17:00,480 --> 00:17:03,360 He was, it was over Mount Rainier that he saw these. 263 00:17:03,560 --> 00:17:06,359 So he, I think he landed in Oregon, Bellingham maybe. 264 00:17:06,680 --> 00:17:11,680 And already the journalists had, you know, listening to the radio 265 00:17:11,680 --> 00:17:13,720 or, or got word that there was something. 266 00:17:13,720 --> 00:17:17,839 So he was greeted at the airport and he climbs down the, you 267 00:17:18,119 --> 00:17:22,440 know, the side of his plane and has a impromptu news conference. 268 00:17:22,920 --> 00:17:29,080 And he actually said that the that the objects moved as like a 269 00:17:29,080 --> 00:17:33,880 saucer skipping over water. He did not describe them as in 270 00:17:33,880 --> 00:17:37,080 the shape of a saucer. That's a relevant point because 271 00:17:37,080 --> 00:17:41,360 a journalist made an error, an interpretive error at the time 272 00:17:41,680 --> 00:17:44,760 and said that the that Kenneth Arnold had described seeing 273 00:17:44,760 --> 00:17:49,120 flying saucers. So I call this the origin story 274 00:17:49,600 --> 00:17:52,920 of the, of the UFO phenomenon. And by that I mean in, in, in 275 00:17:52,920 --> 00:17:55,960 traditional cultures, so-called primitive cultures. 276 00:17:55,960 --> 00:17:59,880 I prefer the time, the term primal cultures or first world 277 00:17:59,880 --> 00:18:04,360 cultures. The, the, the tribes, if you 278 00:18:04,360 --> 00:18:07,240 will. Anthropology has documented as 279 00:18:07,240 --> 00:18:09,800 well they have they have origin stories. 280 00:18:10,120 --> 00:18:13,480 Each tribe has a story that they came from the gods or their 281 00:18:13,480 --> 00:18:18,040 ancestors came from the sky. And so I thought, wow, this is 282 00:18:18,040 --> 00:18:21,840 Ufology. This is the origin story of of 283 00:18:21,840 --> 00:18:26,080 the modern UFO phenomenon. The Kenneth Arnold story is like 284 00:18:26,080 --> 00:18:29,760 the tale that keeps being told. And the tale that kept being 285 00:18:29,760 --> 00:18:32,240 told was that these were shaped like saucers. 286 00:18:32,480 --> 00:18:37,000 So people began to identify saucers, They began to see 287 00:18:37,000 --> 00:18:39,160 saucers. Now that raises a lot of 288 00:18:39,160 --> 00:18:42,480 interesting questions. Could could it be that if this 289 00:18:42,480 --> 00:18:47,120 is an intelligent phenomenon and it appears to be, it appears to 290 00:18:47,120 --> 00:18:50,560 have the characteristics of intelligence, is it possible 291 00:18:50,560 --> 00:18:54,560 that this this it's a shape shifting phenomenon that decided 292 00:18:54,880 --> 00:18:59,160 in response to the expectation that it began to look like 293 00:18:59,160 --> 00:19:02,560 saucers? I mean, it's a it's a wild idea. 294 00:19:02,560 --> 00:19:06,640 If there's an interactive, conscious relationship with this 295 00:19:06,640 --> 00:19:09,480 phenomenon, that could be a possibility. 296 00:19:09,760 --> 00:19:12,800 In any case, you're right. Several decades later in the 297 00:19:12,800 --> 00:19:17,480 1980s, after Kenneth Arnold had died, his daughter Kim Arnold 298 00:19:17,720 --> 00:19:20,440 came forward and said, I have something to tell, that my 299 00:19:20,440 --> 00:19:24,280 father did not want to tell at the time because he was already 300 00:19:25,400 --> 00:19:29,000 beleaguered by being the flying saucer guy. 301 00:19:29,800 --> 00:19:33,520 And he, she gave an interview, I believe it was coast to coast AM 302 00:19:33,520 --> 00:19:36,720 in the middle of the night. And, and they said, well, what, 303 00:19:36,720 --> 00:19:38,920 what did your father see that he didn't talk about? 304 00:19:39,280 --> 00:19:43,600 She said, my father was always mystified that he, that he had 305 00:19:43,800 --> 00:19:49,280 supposedly had seen craft, technological hardware from 306 00:19:49,280 --> 00:19:51,360 another, you know, another Galaxy. 307 00:19:51,560 --> 00:19:53,480 He never said that and he never saw it. 308 00:19:53,600 --> 00:19:57,720 He told us privately and he kept it private, that these seem to 309 00:19:57,720 --> 00:20:04,080 be living, they seem to be breathing, they seem to be have 310 00:20:04,080 --> 00:20:07,920 respiration and they were translucent. 311 00:20:08,120 --> 00:20:13,600 The colors they were, they were like like living beings that 312 00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:16,120 were breathing. And he even said they had the 313 00:20:16,120 --> 00:20:21,320 beat similar to the human heart. And I felt, he said to his 314 00:20:21,320 --> 00:20:25,640 daughter and to his wife that they were more likely from 315 00:20:25,640 --> 00:20:28,640 another dimension. Of reality that we don't 316 00:20:28,640 --> 00:20:30,560 understand. Perhaps they were from what we 317 00:20:30,560 --> 00:20:34,320 call death. They were from the realm that we 318 00:20:34,320 --> 00:20:37,400 go after we leave this world. Well, that's a very advanced 319 00:20:37,400 --> 00:20:40,800 kind of if. If he had said that at the time, 320 00:20:41,320 --> 00:20:43,560 first of all, what would have happened is if there would have 321 00:20:43,560 --> 00:20:45,640 been even more doubt about his sanity. 322 00:20:45,840 --> 00:20:48,680 He was already assumed to be maybe a little nutty because 323 00:20:48,680 --> 00:20:51,520 he's the guy who saw the flying saucers, which he didn't say he 324 00:20:51,520 --> 00:20:54,080 saw. He said he saw objects that move 325 00:20:54,080 --> 00:20:57,520 like saucers over water. Well, if he'd gone with his 326 00:20:57,520 --> 00:21:00,880 larger interpretation, he saw living beings breathing and 327 00:21:01,040 --> 00:21:02,560 having the beat of the human heart. 328 00:21:02,560 --> 00:21:05,160 And they seemed to be from beyond this world where we go 329 00:21:05,160 --> 00:21:07,680 when we die. He probably would have had to 330 00:21:07,680 --> 00:21:12,760 take a test, just a psychiatric test, just to keep his aviation 331 00:21:12,760 --> 00:21:15,280 license. So he kept that to himself. 332 00:21:15,840 --> 00:21:17,680 Here's the here's an interesting part. 333 00:21:17,680 --> 00:21:19,680 And that's why I talk about the paranormal. 334 00:21:20,920 --> 00:21:25,120 That day when he flew back to Boise, ID, where he was from, he 335 00:21:25,120 --> 00:21:27,400 got in his car at the airport and drove home. 336 00:21:27,680 --> 00:21:34,120 And that night, there were in his house orbs of light moving 337 00:21:35,160 --> 00:21:38,280 through the through the house in different rooms, which had never 338 00:21:38,280 --> 00:21:42,880 happened before. So did he did whatever he saw 339 00:21:43,520 --> 00:21:47,680 have some relationship? Did he have some sense of deep 340 00:21:47,680 --> 00:21:50,440 connection to this, to these events? 341 00:21:50,760 --> 00:21:53,080 Had they chosen him to be the witness? 342 00:21:53,360 --> 00:21:56,320 Who knows? But whatever it was, you could 343 00:21:56,320 --> 00:22:00,160 say followed him home. He didn't see Kraft in his in 344 00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:03,360 his home. He saw beams, beams of light, 345 00:22:03,360 --> 00:22:07,560 which he also kept to himself. And it turned out his his wife 346 00:22:07,880 --> 00:22:12,200 had beliefs about reincarnation and had had telepathic 347 00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:15,960 experiences. So right there we have a larger 348 00:22:15,960 --> 00:22:20,080 framework in which this is far more consistent with esoteric 349 00:22:20,080 --> 00:22:23,800 philosophies, initiation ceremonies. 350 00:22:23,880 --> 00:22:26,840 Was there some kind of initiation that Kenneth Arnold 351 00:22:27,440 --> 00:22:30,040 supposedly seeing objects separate from him? 352 00:22:30,320 --> 00:22:33,640 Is there a bonding that he had with this event that it followed 353 00:22:33,640 --> 00:22:35,640 him home? You're probably familiar with 354 00:22:35,640 --> 00:22:40,200 the the idea of the hitchhiker effect that became famous with 355 00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:43,440 Skinwalker Ranch. This paranormal Wonderland in 356 00:22:43,440 --> 00:22:50,560 Utah that has it's famous for being a a geographic location 357 00:22:50,560 --> 00:22:55,360 that has a great deal of a paranormal phenomena, Bigfoot, 358 00:22:56,080 --> 00:22:59,360 human creatures of various kinds. 359 00:22:59,760 --> 00:23:03,440 And what what what has been alleged about Skinwalker Ranch 360 00:23:03,440 --> 00:23:06,960 and other paranormal hotspots is that when researchers, when they 361 00:23:06,960 --> 00:23:11,000 come in to investigate, will go home and they will take the 362 00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:15,440 phenomena with them. So this is stuff that I, I 363 00:23:15,440 --> 00:23:18,560 continually try to broaden the frame of reference. 364 00:23:18,880 --> 00:23:25,640 The UFO as ET hypothesis has been very firmly cemented in our 365 00:23:25,640 --> 00:23:28,120 minds thanks to Steven Spielberg. 366 00:23:28,520 --> 00:23:31,320 I continue to believe that close Encounters of the Third Kind is 367 00:23:31,320 --> 00:23:35,080 still the the best movie in terms of what he portrayed. 368 00:23:35,600 --> 00:23:37,560 But, and I'll tell you one more detail about that. 369 00:23:37,880 --> 00:23:40,720 He worked closely with the astronomer Jacques Valet, who, 370 00:23:40,720 --> 00:23:44,080 as you know, is the one researcher who has tried to open 371 00:23:44,080 --> 00:23:48,040 the door to these larger connections decade after decade, 372 00:23:48,480 --> 00:23:52,040 saying with his marvelous French accent, I don't I do didn't 373 00:23:52,040 --> 00:23:56,240 simply do not believe the the ET hypothesis is the best 374 00:23:56,240 --> 00:23:59,480 explanation for all of the data all. 375 00:23:59,480 --> 00:24:02,440 Passport to Magonias kind of a lot. 376 00:24:03,520 --> 00:24:06,480 Book called passport to magonia. He was the really the first to 377 00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:09,600 make the comparison he said these do not appear to have 378 00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:12,960 begun in 1947. We appear to be dealing with a 379 00:24:12,960 --> 00:24:16,240 phenomenon that has a much larger history. 380 00:24:16,440 --> 00:24:20,000 And in order to study it, we need to study culture, we need 381 00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:24,120 to study folklore, We need to study what we call mythology and 382 00:24:24,120 --> 00:24:26,800 folklore. And of course, at the time, many 383 00:24:26,800 --> 00:24:31,520 of the pro ET hypothesis researchers who are the majority 384 00:24:31,760 --> 00:24:34,640 who had concluded that if they are real, they must be 385 00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:37,880 extraterrestrial craft. But again, must be. 386 00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:40,680 That's not how science works. That's a hypothesis. 387 00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:44,680 That's one interpretation. But the expectation was so 388 00:24:45,280 --> 00:24:48,880 deeply cemented even before Steven Spielberg that many 389 00:24:48,880 --> 00:24:51,520 researchers said, well, Jacques Valet has lost the plot. 390 00:24:51,920 --> 00:24:53,760 He thinks they're just mythology. 391 00:24:54,280 --> 00:24:57,160 He said, no, no, no, I'm not saying just mythology. 392 00:24:57,920 --> 00:25:03,120 Raise your opinion of mythology. Don't say just mythology, just 393 00:25:03,120 --> 00:25:07,320 mythological meaning, false or fanciful, or folklore as 394 00:25:07,320 --> 00:25:11,120 something that is oh what the folk out in the hinterlands 395 00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:15,520 report that I've become far more appreciative of what the folk, 396 00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:18,920 the folks say. Folklore means. 397 00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:23,160 The stories that people tell who do not have necessarily advanced 398 00:25:23,160 --> 00:25:25,920 degrees doesn't mean you don't have an opinion. 399 00:25:27,440 --> 00:25:31,520 Early villagers in the United States, people out in the 400 00:25:31,520 --> 00:25:38,760 folkland, were reporting that fiery rocks were landing in 401 00:25:38,760 --> 00:25:41,480 their fields. And the experts at the time 402 00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:44,240 said, well, that's fine, but that is impossible. 403 00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:47,640 There are no fiery rocks. If you if you tell me that the 404 00:25:47,640 --> 00:25:51,720 rock that you're pointing to seems to have been involved with 405 00:25:51,720 --> 00:25:55,880 fire, that's because maybe somebody burned the rock and is 406 00:25:55,880 --> 00:25:59,000 trying to pass off a fake story. What they didn't realize these 407 00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:01,800 were meteors. The meteors were real. 408 00:26:02,320 --> 00:26:04,120 They didn't have an explanation at the time. 409 00:26:04,120 --> 00:26:08,800 So I used that same analogy to say that the UFO phenomenon is 410 00:26:08,800 --> 00:26:11,640 real. It and it and it has precursors 411 00:26:11,640 --> 00:26:15,760 in myth and folklore. And it's a bigger picture that 412 00:26:15,760 --> 00:26:18,680 probably ultimately challenges our views of reality. 413 00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:22,280 And, and that's where I, you know, come down and say that the 414 00:26:22,280 --> 00:26:26,320 materialist view of science, while it's been very helpful, is 415 00:26:26,320 --> 00:26:30,080 not the full extent of science. It's one approach and it does 416 00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:33,720 not give us any real clarity about what the nature of 417 00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:36,880 consciousness is, what the nature of mind is. 418 00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:41,520 Materialism excludes mind. So I'm saying the UFO phenomenon 419 00:26:41,520 --> 00:26:44,880 is one of many phenomena, including much of the the 420 00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:48,760 paranormal per SE, telepathy, clairvoyance, precognition, 421 00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:51,920 psychokinesis. I say all of this needs to be on 422 00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:55,680 the table if we're excluding that in advance because we want 423 00:26:55,680 --> 00:27:00,080 a simple hypothesis like the ET hypothesis, which I don't rule 424 00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:06,720 off the table, but I question the the explanatory power of the 425 00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:09,400 ET hypothesis. I don't think it accounts for 426 00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:13,880 the richness of the data. So to summarize, I would say the 427 00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:18,480 UFO phenomenon is ultimately a call, if you will, a call from 428 00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:21,080 the cosmos. It's a it's, it's a way of 429 00:27:21,080 --> 00:27:23,320 saying your maps of reality are not finished. 430 00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:27,120 You live in a bigger realm than you realize. 431 00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:31,360 And to make that clear, here is some here's a phenomenon that's 432 00:27:31,360 --> 00:27:35,120 going to confound you. And I'm a big believer. 433 00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:39,360 Be willing to be confounded. Sometimes being confounded is 434 00:27:39,360 --> 00:27:43,280 the most authentic response. I don't know what's going on 435 00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:46,640 here. How often do we do we studying 436 00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:49,200 politics right now, following the political scene? 437 00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:53,920 I'm very often aware. I don't know what's going on in 438 00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:58,000 the current debate between Trump and his adversaries. 439 00:27:58,600 --> 00:28:01,600 I don't think I've got enough information to evaluate 440 00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:04,920 specific. I'm fine with not knowing. 441 00:28:05,280 --> 00:28:09,880 I'm a big advocate of not knowing as a, as a precursor to 442 00:28:09,880 --> 00:28:12,680 opening to new knowledge. If you've got all the answers, 443 00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:15,360 you're not going to be open to new information. 444 00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:18,080 And I in the best sense, I'm a science guy. 445 00:28:18,080 --> 00:28:21,200 I'm in the sense of science. I don't think science is going 446 00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:24,120 to explain necessarily everything, but science in its 447 00:28:24,120 --> 00:28:27,000 best sense was why don't we take an empirical approach? 448 00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:31,080 What does the evidence say? And, and regarding anybody of 449 00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:33,160 evidence, what are, what are the, what is the best 450 00:28:33,160 --> 00:28:36,200 hypothesis? Then we can test the hypothesis. 451 00:28:36,360 --> 00:28:40,000 So with that in mind, I use use the UFO as a framework to ask 452 00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:42,360 bigger questions rather than smaller questions. 453 00:28:43,320 --> 00:28:46,400 Yeah, interesting by. The way I think they ultimately 454 00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:51,400 the questions take us back to esoteric, spiritual, mystical, 455 00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:55,240 philosophical issues. I think the phenomenon is is a 456 00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:58,680 kind of initiation process and should remind us of the 457 00:28:58,680 --> 00:29:03,280 Elusinian mysteries. Initiation rites have played a 458 00:29:03,280 --> 00:29:06,160 great role in in in the development of human 459 00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:07,880 consciousness. And by the way, the, the idea, 460 00:29:08,040 --> 00:29:11,560 the connection between the UFO phenomena and the DMTI mean I'm 461 00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:14,880 not an expert on DMT, the psychedelics, but I, I believe 462 00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:18,480 the psychedelic frame of reference is ought to be brought 463 00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:22,480 in to the UFO phenomena. Which is not to say that if 464 00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:25,680 you've had a UFO experience, you must have been on psychedelics. 465 00:29:25,920 --> 00:29:28,400 It's not what I'm. Saying I mean the the the DMT 466 00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:30,800 thing too, or psychedelics in general. 467 00:29:30,800 --> 00:29:32,640 I mean DMT we produce in our body. 468 00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:34,800 We know for a fact it's produced in the brain now. 469 00:29:34,800 --> 00:29:38,800 So it's not like, you know, if there's an endogenous component 470 00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:43,320 to it as opposed to some sort of exogenous experience or taking 471 00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:46,440 something or whatever. So that was the connection 472 00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:48,000 there. Not to say that people aren't 473 00:29:48,000 --> 00:29:50,640 having real experiences or whatever, but just, you know, 474 00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:53,560 the hypothesis of the documentary we made was that the 475 00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:57,760 mind is essential for all these experiences. 476 00:29:57,760 --> 00:30:01,520 You know, 'cause we don't know any other part of nature that 477 00:30:01,520 --> 00:30:05,120 has these similar experiences. Not that other, you know, 478 00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:09,240 animals or plants don't have DMT in them or whatever, but we're 479 00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:13,800 interacting with the world in in a very different way, whether 480 00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:16,400 it's advanced or different or whatever. 481 00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:19,560 So well and. Also after Gallimore with a 482 00:30:19,560 --> 00:30:24,200 wonderful new book out the The Death of Astonishment. 483 00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:27,120 Death by Astonishment. I've not met Andrew, but we've 484 00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:30,080 corresponded. He he makes a very solid case. 485 00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:32,600 He he approaches, by the way, the DMT phenomena as a 486 00:30:32,600 --> 00:30:35,280 scientist. He says, I kept trying different 487 00:30:35,280 --> 00:30:38,000 explanations. This will explain it. 488 00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:41,240 He finally landed in the union world and he was not a union. 489 00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:44,680 But in order to understand it, people said, oh, this you need 490 00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:48,040 to read Carl Jung. Jung's thinking will probably 491 00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:50,920 explain these are archetypes and so forth. 492 00:30:51,560 --> 00:30:54,320 And I don't want to go down the the Jungian rabbit hole here 493 00:30:54,320 --> 00:30:57,120 today. But point is he he what he found 494 00:30:57,120 --> 00:30:59,800 is that this Jung may have something to say. 495 00:30:59,840 --> 00:31:02,680 Jung's thinking may have something to say about DMT, but 496 00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:07,960 he noted that the DMT experience of these machine elves, these 497 00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:13,200 creatures who seem to have these playful, teasing, provocative 498 00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:18,160 elf like figures that are encountered, do not seem to be 499 00:31:18,160 --> 00:31:22,240 related like other psychedelics are, to the psychological 500 00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:25,400 framework of the user of the traveler. 501 00:31:25,640 --> 00:31:27,560 That the. The basic idea in most 502 00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:31,400 psychedelics, the mushrooms and LSD and so forth, is that your 503 00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:35,520 mental set and your mental and the setting in which you do a 504 00:31:35,520 --> 00:31:39,120 psychedelic journey, the mindset you bring and the physical 505 00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:41,840 setting and the emotional setting are very important to 506 00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:46,200 shaping the phenomena. What he found and others other 507 00:31:46,200 --> 00:31:50,120 DMT researchers find is that it doesn't matter what the mindset 508 00:31:50,600 --> 00:31:55,120 of a person is, They're invited to to take a few hits of a vape, 509 00:31:55,640 --> 00:31:59,080 that of DMT, and it's a very short journey. 510 00:31:59,080 --> 00:32:02,520 I've not done it myself like 10 minutes in length, but it seems 511 00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:07,040 like eons when you come back that you encounter what appears 512 00:32:07,040 --> 00:32:11,680 to be an autonomous realm, an ontological realm to use the 513 00:32:11,680 --> 00:32:15,360 fancy term for philosophy. A realm of being that is 514 00:32:15,360 --> 00:32:18,600 discreet. That and it will very often the 515 00:32:18,600 --> 00:32:23,560 first time DMT user will be greeted when they come into 516 00:32:23,560 --> 00:32:26,480 contact with these beings. Oh it's good to see you again, 517 00:32:26,960 --> 00:32:30,520 Welcome back. Wow. 518 00:32:31,280 --> 00:32:34,360 They come back and say, I, I, I had a sense I'd been there 519 00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:37,320 before. So it suggests the realm that 520 00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:40,400 we're in relationship to and the DMT brings it forth. 521 00:32:40,680 --> 00:32:43,720 Could the UFO phenomenon be the same, same kind of thing? 522 00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:46,880 In fact, there is some you can, you can make an analogy between 523 00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:51,160 the UFO aliens and the DMT beings. 524 00:32:51,600 --> 00:32:54,400 Are they, they would just put it this way, they may not be the 525 00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:57,600 same, but is there a, what do you call it? 526 00:32:58,160 --> 00:32:59,440 A. Trickster. 527 00:33:00,520 --> 00:33:04,760 Well, an overlap Venn diagram. If you do a Venn diagram, you've 528 00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:08,200 got the UFO aliens and the DMT beings. 529 00:33:08,440 --> 00:33:10,720 There would be a certain amount of common territory. 530 00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:15,080 What is that commonality? I actually think of the UFO 531 00:33:15,080 --> 00:33:17,440 phenomenon as a series of Venn diagrams. 532 00:33:17,880 --> 00:33:21,520 We need religion, spirituality, we need philosophy. 533 00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:25,920 We need anomaly studies. We need good paranormal 534 00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:29,760 parapsychological research. We need field research. 535 00:33:30,320 --> 00:33:35,720 Just get the best stories and and try to look at the larger 536 00:33:35,720 --> 00:33:38,480 patterns that Gregory Bates and the anthropologist had the 537 00:33:38,480 --> 00:33:42,400 phrase the patterns that connect what are the patterns that 538 00:33:42,400 --> 00:33:44,600 connect phenomena from different realms. 539 00:33:44,800 --> 00:33:48,480 That's the ultimate quest of knowledge is to to Charles 540 00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:53,320 Darwin attempted that when he he was just a he was a British 541 00:33:53,320 --> 00:33:56,440 naturalist who enjoyed taking walks. 542 00:33:57,000 --> 00:34:00,480 He was a man of leisure. And he began collecting samples, 543 00:34:00,760 --> 00:34:05,480 fossils and, and noted the birds from this island are similar to 544 00:34:05,720 --> 00:34:09,400 the birds on that island. And he pursued those patterns 545 00:34:09,719 --> 00:34:12,760 and the result was the the great evolution, evolutionary 546 00:34:12,760 --> 00:34:17,080 synthesis, which we're still trying to wrap our minds around 547 00:34:17,080 --> 00:34:19,480 the implications of the origin of species. 548 00:34:19,679 --> 00:34:21,760 By the way, I don't think evolutionary theory has figured 549 00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:24,800 everything out, and I don't think it negates the idea of a 550 00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:29,960 God or a larger intelligence. But certainly nature does 551 00:34:29,960 --> 00:34:32,560 evolve. And I think that the phenomenon, 552 00:34:32,840 --> 00:34:36,719 the UFO phenomenon may be part of an can be understood in 553 00:34:36,719 --> 00:34:40,520 evolutionary terms that there's something that is not, not yet 554 00:34:41,960 --> 00:34:44,360 our reality as we know it is not finished. 555 00:34:44,800 --> 00:34:48,800 It may be it's emerging. There are new aspects of, of 556 00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:50,639 nature that are making themselves known. 557 00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:53,120 And so that's another frame of reference. 558 00:34:53,159 --> 00:34:56,360 I I I bring to this to my studies. 559 00:34:57,320 --> 00:35:01,520 For sure. Yeah, No, I I love that topic. 560 00:35:01,640 --> 00:35:05,080 We've talked about the hallucinating mysteries and what 561 00:35:05,080 --> 00:35:09,320 was probably going on there a lot on the podcast. 562 00:35:09,320 --> 00:35:12,160 We've had Andrew Gallimore on the podcast probably 6 or 7 563 00:35:12,160 --> 00:35:14,560 times over the years. He's actually in our documentary 564 00:35:14,560 --> 00:35:16,960 too. No, I mean, I identify with a 565 00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:22,640 lot of that as being somebody that's definitely experienced a 566 00:35:22,640 --> 00:35:25,840 lot of these States and compounds and things like that 567 00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:28,000 and had weird experiences myself. 568 00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:32,200 You know, there's no answers. And like you said, the best we 569 00:35:32,200 --> 00:35:37,240 can do when you're dealing with the mind, since we don't have 570 00:35:38,040 --> 00:35:42,480 the way to quantify it all yet like we do, you know, things in 571 00:35:42,480 --> 00:35:46,720 the material world, we just have to do the best we can use 572 00:35:46,720 --> 00:35:51,800 philosophy, psychology, the science and neuroscience that we 573 00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:56,080 can, you know, use to quantify and just slowly pick away at 574 00:35:56,080 --> 00:36:00,640 what's what. I did want to go back though to 575 00:36:00,640 --> 00:36:04,160 the myth aspect of it real quick before we move forward. 576 00:36:04,840 --> 00:36:08,600 Do you think that myths arise spontaneously in response to 577 00:36:08,600 --> 00:36:11,280 what our civilization most needs to integrate? 578 00:36:12,640 --> 00:36:16,800 Like UFOs are a mirror for our technological anxiety or 579 00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:20,160 spiritual hunger? Almost like young. 580 00:36:20,160 --> 00:36:23,240 You mentioned young. Almost like his approach or 581 00:36:23,880 --> 00:36:27,640 thoughts on the phenomenon. Yeah, it's, you could say 582 00:36:27,640 --> 00:36:29,600 there's a phenomenon called mythogenesis. 583 00:36:29,600 --> 00:36:34,400 How how do myths emerge? And here I I cite Joseph 584 00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:38,040 Campbell, his famous book The Hero with 1000 Faces. 585 00:36:38,040 --> 00:36:40,120 He's popularized the hero journey. 586 00:36:40,440 --> 00:36:43,360 So he he defined the monomyth as the idea that that is that 587 00:36:43,360 --> 00:36:47,960 there's a mythic structure that is at the heart of all world 588 00:36:47,960 --> 00:36:50,440 myth. And in Jung's term, all 589 00:36:50,840 --> 00:36:55,800 psychological myth of psychological phenomena come 590 00:36:55,800 --> 00:37:00,200 down to this idea of a of a protagonist who goes forth in 591 00:37:00,200 --> 00:37:04,400 the light of day and has an encounter that takes him off the 592 00:37:04,400 --> 00:37:06,760 beat, hit him or her off the beaten path. 593 00:37:07,400 --> 00:37:13,200 And it is the way nature keeps discovery going. 594 00:37:13,600 --> 00:37:17,440 And the hero's journey is understood as the Odyssey. 595 00:37:17,440 --> 00:37:20,720 You know, we see it in Homer, the Iliad, the Odyssey, the 596 00:37:20,720 --> 00:37:24,000 great mythic structures. That's why we go to the movies. 597 00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:32,320 That's why Marvel Comics are so prone to powerful motifs, 598 00:37:32,320 --> 00:37:34,200 especially for younger audiences. 599 00:37:34,360 --> 00:37:37,200 People say, go to the movies. Now it looks like it's entirely 600 00:37:37,200 --> 00:37:40,960 for juvenile audience. So, yeah, because we've stopped 601 00:37:40,960 --> 00:37:43,600 teaching our young people the great myths. 602 00:37:43,840 --> 00:37:48,320 So it's up to them to go to the movie theaters to to watch Iron 603 00:37:48,320 --> 00:37:50,920 Man. And they're drawn. 604 00:37:50,920 --> 00:37:51,920 We're drawn. Yeah. 605 00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:55,360 So we are drawn to to myth. We're drawn to these deeper 606 00:37:55,360 --> 00:37:57,920 stories. It's why we pick up a novel at 607 00:37:57,920 --> 00:38:01,560 the airport and we read it for four hours on the flight. 608 00:38:02,040 --> 00:38:05,480 It's called What's Why We read a page Turner because a 609 00:38:05,480 --> 00:38:09,280 compelling, a well written novel or a well written design 610 00:38:09,280 --> 00:38:14,200 screenplay, a movie that is captivating deeply. 611 00:38:14,200 --> 00:38:17,160 It's because it resonates with these deep mythic structures. 612 00:38:17,720 --> 00:38:22,640 So I think the the and, and I think Steven Spielberg was the 613 00:38:22,640 --> 00:38:25,440 genius at that. By the way, let me share 614 00:38:25,440 --> 00:38:28,040 something with you about. I go back to, I brought up 615 00:38:28,040 --> 00:38:29,720 Jacques Valet, the French astronomer. 616 00:38:30,080 --> 00:38:34,080 He was brought in by Steven Spielberg back in the early 70s 617 00:38:34,360 --> 00:38:39,040 to work on when Spielberg was working on on the on the 618 00:38:39,040 --> 00:38:43,320 phenomenon and trying to find a plot that that is that captured 619 00:38:43,320 --> 00:38:46,680 the biggest part of it. He knew about Ballet's books, so 620 00:38:46,680 --> 00:38:48,720 he brought, he said, Jacques, I want to meet you. 621 00:38:48,720 --> 00:38:52,080 Come, come to me in LA. So they did they they worked 622 00:38:52,080 --> 00:38:56,800 together and valet brought a vast amount of field research. 623 00:38:57,200 --> 00:39:00,200 For example, the, you know, the sense in which in, in close 624 00:39:00,200 --> 00:39:03,680 Encounters of the Third Kind, the Richard Dreyfuss character, 625 00:39:03,680 --> 00:39:09,320 his truck stops, it stops the engine, it turns off all the 626 00:39:09,320 --> 00:39:11,200 lights. And then when the phenomenon 627 00:39:11,560 --> 00:39:16,040 goes back off into the sky, that the, the, the car starts up 628 00:39:16,040 --> 00:39:18,960 again. The idea that people all around 629 00:39:18,960 --> 00:39:22,360 the world were transfixed by the idea of what was going on at 630 00:39:22,360 --> 00:39:28,320 Devil's Tower in Wyoming. That is also a powerful theme. 631 00:39:28,600 --> 00:39:30,440 So Valet brought a lot of that in. 632 00:39:30,880 --> 00:39:34,720 And then at one point it became clear to Valet that what 633 00:39:34,760 --> 00:39:38,800 Spielberg was planning to do was have this culminate in the giant 634 00:39:38,800 --> 00:39:41,760 mothership. He was going to resolve the plot 635 00:39:42,080 --> 00:39:45,480 as a classic extraterrestrial landing. 636 00:39:46,480 --> 00:39:51,040 And Valet said to Spielberg, Steven, it's your movie. 637 00:39:51,480 --> 00:39:55,920 You'll do what you want, but you will resolve, if you resolve all 638 00:39:55,920 --> 00:39:59,840 the ambiguities, all the richness of the data, which is 639 00:39:59,840 --> 00:40:03,320 far more nuanced as an extraterrestrial event in a 640 00:40:03,320 --> 00:40:09,120 definitive sense, you will overly define this phenomenon in 641 00:40:09,120 --> 00:40:11,640 a way that the evidence doesn't indicate. 642 00:40:12,080 --> 00:40:16,000 And, Spielberg said to Valet. I understand what you're telling 643 00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:18,440 me. I've studied the phenomena 644 00:40:18,440 --> 00:40:20,920 you've brought to me. I've studied the cases. 645 00:40:20,920 --> 00:40:23,760 You're right, it is far more subtle. 646 00:40:24,120 --> 00:40:27,120 But here's the deal. I work in Hollywood. 647 00:40:27,920 --> 00:40:32,840 My day job is to make movies. People who go to this movie are 648 00:40:32,840 --> 00:40:36,240 going to want the handshake. He used the term handshake. 649 00:40:36,240 --> 00:40:40,640 You remember the French scientist who, who, who, who 650 00:40:40,640 --> 00:40:48,280 used a musical 55 notes do do, do, do, do, do and and he had 651 00:40:48,280 --> 00:40:53,240 the hand gesture by which the connection was made. 652 00:40:53,440 --> 00:40:54,880 He said. People are going to want the 653 00:40:54,880 --> 00:40:59,200 handshake about I said, Steven, I know what you're saying. 654 00:40:59,480 --> 00:41:01,360 I understand you want to make a great movie. 655 00:41:01,520 --> 00:41:05,280 But he he did believe that what, what, what Spielberg would be 656 00:41:05,280 --> 00:41:09,080 doing was making that ending so compelling that people would 657 00:41:09,080 --> 00:41:14,800 assume that UFO means extraterrestrial spacecraft. 658 00:41:14,920 --> 00:41:20,800 What UFO means is unidentified aerial flying phenomena, 659 00:41:20,800 --> 00:41:23,160 something's in the sky that we can't explain. 660 00:41:23,840 --> 00:41:27,160 It could just as easily come from other dimensions of 661 00:41:27,160 --> 00:41:31,040 reality, not from a, just necessarily from a physical 662 00:41:31,040 --> 00:41:33,120 place. Or it could be some third 663 00:41:33,120 --> 00:41:35,560 option. It's, it's from another, another 664 00:41:35,560 --> 00:41:39,960 physical place, but it, it, it manifests in terms that for us 665 00:41:39,960 --> 00:41:43,080 we can only call paranormal. So anyway, that's a that's an 666 00:41:43,080 --> 00:41:49,360 example of the of the tension between storytelling and another 667 00:41:49,360 --> 00:41:53,600 example of it's how the major UFO abduction researchers Budd 668 00:41:53,600 --> 00:41:59,480 Hopkins and and David Jacobs were both very forthright in a 669 00:41:59,480 --> 00:42:02,960 curious way, very candid to say they would learn to exclude 670 00:42:02,960 --> 00:42:06,680 cases as probably not real abductions. 671 00:42:07,080 --> 00:42:08,280 Oh, really? What would what would be 672 00:42:08,280 --> 00:42:11,920 examples of cases that don't, that don't, don't seem to be 673 00:42:11,920 --> 00:42:15,280 real abductions that were probably only psychological. 674 00:42:15,720 --> 00:42:18,480 And they both basically said if it doesn't fit the emerging 675 00:42:18,480 --> 00:42:22,840 profile of little short Gray aliens, the ones that are 676 00:42:22,840 --> 00:42:28,080 supposedly 7 feet tall who don't fit that profile, those probably 677 00:42:28,080 --> 00:42:30,640 are just psychological. Well, wait a minute. 678 00:42:30,640 --> 00:42:32,720 Whoa, whoa. Because you have a lot of 679 00:42:32,720 --> 00:42:36,680 sightings that that preference, that show a preference, a 680 00:42:36,680 --> 00:42:40,000 predilection for the short Gray reptile aliens. 681 00:42:40,360 --> 00:42:43,520 If anything doesn't fit that they're excluded. 682 00:42:43,760 --> 00:42:47,920 What I'm saying is there is among UFO researchers an 683 00:42:47,920 --> 00:42:54,960 unavoidable desire to remove the strangeness and to regularize to 684 00:42:54,960 --> 00:43:00,880 make the phenomenon credible. Because you know, if you're a 685 00:43:01,520 --> 00:43:05,640 UFO research, if, if you're an engineer, teach a professor of 686 00:43:05,640 --> 00:43:09,680 engineer at a university and, and there are a good number of 687 00:43:09,800 --> 00:43:12,800 engineers who professors of engineers who, who actually are 688 00:43:12,800 --> 00:43:14,440 interested in the UFO phenomenon. 689 00:43:15,520 --> 00:43:19,120 They have a hard enough time selling this as even 690 00:43:19,120 --> 00:43:22,200 extraterrestrial. They don't want little elves 691 00:43:22,200 --> 00:43:25,640 from mythology. They don't want to hear about 692 00:43:25,640 --> 00:43:30,720 parallels between UFO abductions and fairy abductions in the 693 00:43:30,720 --> 00:43:34,840 Irish and Celtic cultures. That's way too weird. 694 00:43:34,840 --> 00:43:39,120 So I'm not saying that the the researchers are dishonest, but 695 00:43:39,120 --> 00:43:42,960 there's a natural attempt to rationalize, to make the 696 00:43:42,960 --> 00:43:45,640 phenomenon more rational than it really is. 697 00:43:45,640 --> 00:43:49,760 What I'm saying is the UFO phenomenon is actually stranger 698 00:43:50,200 --> 00:43:54,440 than we think because it's there are too many kinds of creatures 699 00:43:54,760 --> 00:43:58,360 with too many kinds of morphologies and body types and 700 00:43:58,360 --> 00:44:01,440 anatomies. So I'm a big believer in let the 701 00:44:01,480 --> 00:44:03,800 evidence be as weird as it it needs to be. 702 00:44:04,320 --> 00:44:08,200 Don't oh, don't close down. And I so I think that that these 703 00:44:08,200 --> 00:44:11,920 these researchers on abductions have given us 2 concrete a 704 00:44:11,920 --> 00:44:14,800 picture. The idea that these are literal. 705 00:44:15,080 --> 00:44:18,320 Well, the abduction issue is a is a is a complex 1. 706 00:44:18,320 --> 00:44:21,480 And I don't want to do it in a. Yeah, we can. 707 00:44:22,440 --> 00:44:25,800 We can do that later, maybe even have you back on and you know, 708 00:44:25,800 --> 00:44:29,320 discuss that a little bit more fully because that is, I mean, 709 00:44:29,320 --> 00:44:33,520 that's what we looked at in our documentary and going into 710 00:44:34,440 --> 00:44:37,080 making it. You know, when I first started, 711 00:44:37,480 --> 00:44:40,600 I've always been interested since I was like 1213, pondering 712 00:44:40,600 --> 00:44:45,880 the universe, whatever. But when I really got into these 713 00:44:45,880 --> 00:44:49,520 ideas and concepts and things, I was much like what you were 714 00:44:49,520 --> 00:44:52,280 discussing. Like I'm, I'm very about science 715 00:44:52,280 --> 00:44:55,640 and observation. How can we quantify these 716 00:44:55,640 --> 00:44:59,160 things? And slowly I realized through 717 00:44:59,160 --> 00:45:01,320 researching, talking with people, having my own 718 00:45:01,320 --> 00:45:07,560 experiences, that there's a far more, it's a, it's a far bigger 719 00:45:07,560 --> 00:45:15,240 Gray area than just rational materialism or something along 720 00:45:15,240 --> 00:45:16,840 those lines. Like you said, there's a lot of 721 00:45:16,840 --> 00:45:21,760 people that want to turn this into a solid flying disc with a 722 00:45:21,760 --> 00:45:24,360 physical being from another planet getting out. 723 00:45:24,360 --> 00:45:29,040 As opposed to some sort of whether it's our own part of our 724 00:45:29,040 --> 00:45:33,120 own psyche or a piece of something or something we're 725 00:45:33,120 --> 00:45:35,680 encountering in an altered state that's communicating with 726 00:45:35,680 --> 00:45:39,400 something in a different dimension or something that, you 727 00:45:39,400 --> 00:45:41,760 know, it's basically what we're talking about is metaphysics. 728 00:45:42,040 --> 00:45:44,200 And that's kind of the conclusion that I came to as 729 00:45:44,200 --> 00:45:48,080 well, which is that there's a metaphysical component to this 730 00:45:48,880 --> 00:45:54,200 and that the very few, like I said, rational daylight, whether 731 00:45:54,200 --> 00:46:00,160 it's, you know, a physical encounter somebody had or 732 00:46:00,160 --> 00:46:04,360 something. I'm, I'm actually more skeptical 733 00:46:04,360 --> 00:46:08,240 of those these days than I am of the actual people having weird 734 00:46:08,240 --> 00:46:13,160 experiences in altered states or in liminal spaces or waking up 735 00:46:13,160 --> 00:46:16,840 or falling asleep or so light outside and they wake up or 736 00:46:17,040 --> 00:46:19,400 something along those lines. Because I feel like a lot of 737 00:46:19,400 --> 00:46:23,160 people can connect with that as opposed to I'm sitting in my 738 00:46:23,160 --> 00:46:27,320 backyard and a metal disc lands and some being it's out. 739 00:46:27,320 --> 00:46:31,360 Not that I feel like that's not in the realm of possibility, 740 00:46:31,360 --> 00:46:34,760 It's just that going in I felt like that was more likely as 741 00:46:34,760 --> 00:46:38,880 opposed to now where I feel like that's far less likely, if that 742 00:46:38,880 --> 00:46:40,440 makes sense. Well. 743 00:46:40,440 --> 00:46:44,000 That's one of the one of in in my assembly of the Venn 744 00:46:44,000 --> 00:46:46,160 diagrams. I bring in also the shamanic 745 00:46:46,160 --> 00:46:49,200 tradition, shamans. The shaman in traditional 746 00:46:49,200 --> 00:46:53,360 cultures, primal cultures was that figure who was expected and 747 00:46:53,360 --> 00:46:57,920 trained very eccentric would probably be considered a 748 00:46:58,040 --> 00:47:02,080 psychologically disordered person according to contemporary 749 00:47:02,080 --> 00:47:06,920 psychological diagnostics. But the shaman was that being 750 00:47:07,160 --> 00:47:11,080 who would use, you know, would would light the fire and have 751 00:47:11,080 --> 00:47:16,640 ceremonies and conduct discourse, intercourse, if you 752 00:47:16,640 --> 00:47:18,120 will. I don't mean it in the sexual 753 00:47:18,120 --> 00:47:22,560 sense, but exchanges with the beings from the upper and the 754 00:47:22,560 --> 00:47:27,000 middle and the lower realms. Most shamanic cultures have a 755 00:47:27,000 --> 00:47:30,200 well defined cosmology of beings at many levels. 756 00:47:30,440 --> 00:47:34,320 When I discovered that when I found my way into the 757 00:47:34,320 --> 00:47:38,080 anthropological evidence of shamanism, I said we can't 758 00:47:38,320 --> 00:47:43,520 exclude the possibility that maybe today's UFO abductees are 759 00:47:43,520 --> 00:47:47,200 unwitting shamans. They are drawn into the same 760 00:47:47,200 --> 00:47:52,840 realms that the shamanic cultures are speak of with their 761 00:47:52,960 --> 00:47:56,160 with their different levels of beings, non ordinary 762 00:47:56,680 --> 00:48:01,400 mythological creatures. That simply because our 763 00:48:01,400 --> 00:48:04,920 philosophies and our cosmologies in the Western mind have 764 00:48:04,920 --> 00:48:09,400 excluded all those phenomena doesn't mean the phenomena are 765 00:48:09,400 --> 00:48:13,760 excluding us. If I often say when we have a 766 00:48:13,760 --> 00:48:18,400 consistent body of evidence, and I mean the whole entire 767 00:48:18,400 --> 00:48:22,880 phenomenology of the UFO world, the abductions, the contacts, 768 00:48:22,880 --> 00:48:26,800 the the visitations, the sightings in the sky, the sense 769 00:48:26,800 --> 00:48:30,240 in which the sightings in the sky often correlate with deep 770 00:48:30,240 --> 00:48:35,480 psychological experiences that would not necessarily go with 771 00:48:35,640 --> 00:48:38,960 seeing a light in the sky. What is it about the sense of a 772 00:48:38,960 --> 00:48:41,560 person who witnesses something in the sky and has a 773 00:48:41,560 --> 00:48:44,960 transformative life experience that cannot be explained by a 774 00:48:44,960 --> 00:48:49,040 conventional light in the sky? So when I, so I often say when 775 00:48:49,040 --> 00:48:53,880 we have a phenomenology, a broad body of data that doesn't fit 776 00:48:53,880 --> 00:48:59,200 our maps, maybe at some point the wisest question is maybe 777 00:48:59,200 --> 00:49:01,880 it's the maps. Maybe our map. 778 00:49:02,040 --> 00:49:04,600 Has anybody checks our checked our maps lately? 779 00:49:05,640 --> 00:49:08,760 Are they up to date? By maps, I mean our theories. 780 00:49:09,240 --> 00:49:11,360 And we don't literally carry around maps with us. 781 00:49:11,360 --> 00:49:16,000 But the Western model of, of, of science involves theories, 782 00:49:16,000 --> 00:49:18,680 which, which are mappings. You could say in the same sense 783 00:49:18,680 --> 00:49:22,600 that the adventurers who came Magellan and other adventures 784 00:49:22,600 --> 00:49:26,800 who came in ships, they had maps of the ocean of the sky. 785 00:49:27,040 --> 00:49:29,400 While our maps don't appear to be final. 786 00:49:29,520 --> 00:49:32,320 Whoa. And not up to date. 787 00:49:32,560 --> 00:49:36,000 We don't even include consciousness even in the 788 00:49:36,000 --> 00:49:39,080 Western materialist framework. We don't have an understanding. 789 00:49:39,080 --> 00:49:44,000 We don't even have a framework for understanding the act of 790 00:49:44,000 --> 00:49:47,240 observing. We don't account for awareness 791 00:49:47,280 --> 00:49:50,760 and for psychological we don't have a good map of of of 792 00:49:50,760 --> 00:49:54,160 interior life and it's relationship to the outer life, 793 00:49:54,320 --> 00:49:56,440 which is where synchronicities come in, right. 794 00:49:56,440 --> 00:49:59,280 And synchronicity is by definition a meaningful 795 00:49:59,280 --> 00:50:02,920 correlation between an internal state and a psychological state. 796 00:50:03,200 --> 00:50:08,680 If famously young was working with one of his patients who had 797 00:50:08,680 --> 00:50:12,880 was telling about dream of beetles, a particular beetle 798 00:50:12,880 --> 00:50:16,280 called a scarab. And at one point it while the 799 00:50:16,360 --> 00:50:19,200 the the patient was telling Jung about his dream of a of a 800 00:50:19,200 --> 00:50:24,080 certain kind of beetle, Jung heard a kind of knocking on the 801 00:50:24,080 --> 00:50:25,520 window. So he got up and opened the 802 00:50:25,520 --> 00:50:29,720 curtain and there was that very beetle on the window. 803 00:50:29,720 --> 00:50:33,920 And that's when Jung began to work with the the physicist 804 00:50:35,480 --> 00:50:38,200 Wolfgang Polly. Yeah, from the Manhattan 805 00:50:38,200 --> 00:50:40,960 Project. Yeah, so basically. 806 00:50:40,960 --> 00:50:45,360 So we need a model that talks about evidence that mind and 807 00:50:45,360 --> 00:50:50,240 matter far from being 2 fixed positions, mind is here, matter 808 00:50:50,240 --> 00:50:52,520 is here. Going way back to Descartes, 809 00:50:52,760 --> 00:50:56,120 they don't communicate. These are separate categories 810 00:50:56,200 --> 00:50:58,840 somehow meaning is entirely inside us. 811 00:50:59,040 --> 00:51:03,680 The outer world is composed of dead, inert matter. 812 00:51:04,440 --> 00:51:07,840 Well, what we have with synchronicities and other 813 00:51:07,840 --> 00:51:11,080 paranormal phenomena, you have a precognitive dream that you're 814 00:51:11,080 --> 00:51:13,520 going to be walking down the street and see a person dressed 815 00:51:13,520 --> 00:51:17,640 in these colors and that this the, you see a scene which the 816 00:51:17,640 --> 00:51:22,240 next day the, the based on the dream, you see that scene 817 00:51:22,240 --> 00:51:26,400 another you well, great, let's, let's, let's draw bigger maps. 818 00:51:26,400 --> 00:51:30,000 I'm up for drawing bigger maps. And that's the true scientific 819 00:51:30,000 --> 00:51:31,880 enterprise. It should be the religious 820 00:51:31,880 --> 00:51:34,320 enterprise as well. But too often most religions 821 00:51:34,680 --> 00:51:39,240 define given map. It's with a particular book and 822 00:51:39,240 --> 00:51:41,240 a particular interpretation of that book. 823 00:51:41,240 --> 00:51:44,960 And I don't want to go deeply into that, but I'm spiritually, 824 00:51:44,960 --> 00:51:47,640 and I think it's good. Good science and spirituality 825 00:51:47,640 --> 00:51:50,000 are the same, the same enterprise. 826 00:51:50,480 --> 00:51:53,520 Yeah, and Young and Polly, I think they came to the 827 00:51:53,520 --> 00:51:59,640 conclusion that it was when mind meets matter is what the 828 00:51:59,640 --> 00:52:02,960 synchronicity is. Those two different, you know, 829 00:52:03,200 --> 00:52:06,520 mind and matter kind of intersecting is like, oh, that's 830 00:52:06,520 --> 00:52:10,680 when you have this epiphany or this synchronicity or whatever. 831 00:52:12,160 --> 00:52:14,680 Yeah, those are that's I, I, if you're interested in 832 00:52:14,680 --> 00:52:17,240 synchronicities, I implore people to go look into that. 833 00:52:17,600 --> 00:52:21,000 The communications and letters between Young and Polly 'cause 834 00:52:21,760 --> 00:52:23,520 there's a lot of interesting stuff there. 835 00:52:25,120 --> 00:52:29,440 And they actually there's another young short story. 836 00:52:29,560 --> 00:52:33,720 I think it's Man's Search for Meanie and not, not the Frankel 837 00:52:33,720 --> 00:52:35,400 book, but there's another one, a young one. 838 00:52:35,400 --> 00:52:39,280 I can't think of the title right now where he's talking about a 839 00:52:39,280 --> 00:52:42,880 mountain climber that he was that was seeing him. 840 00:52:43,200 --> 00:52:45,800 And the mountain climber came to him in the, you know, he was 841 00:52:46,000 --> 00:52:48,760 climbing in the Alps and said, you know, I keep having this 842 00:52:48,760 --> 00:52:52,800 nightmare that I'm going to die up on the mountain or die, you 843 00:52:52,800 --> 00:52:56,120 know, And Young said, well, don't go up there alone. 844 00:52:56,120 --> 00:52:58,520 So he started going with somebody else. 845 00:52:58,880 --> 00:53:03,680 And then finally, I think one day he, you know, decided to 846 00:53:03,680 --> 00:53:08,440 just do it himself and he goes up there and dies on the 847 00:53:08,440 --> 00:53:10,200 mountain. So it's like, it's one of these 848 00:53:10,200 --> 00:53:14,440 things where it's like, was he foreshadowing his own death or 849 00:53:14,440 --> 00:53:18,960 was there something to those dreams and those thoughts? 850 00:53:18,960 --> 00:53:21,560 You know, it's it's an interesting thought experiment. 851 00:53:22,640 --> 00:53:27,240 And this brings, this brings up the whole question of what's the 852 00:53:27,240 --> 00:53:31,720 role of skepticism and, and, and, and, and critical thinking? 853 00:53:32,880 --> 00:53:36,560 I became aware and when I was 12 years old and I had that 854 00:53:37,080 --> 00:53:39,720 assignment to cover this case and, or I made that my 855 00:53:39,720 --> 00:53:42,360 assignment, brought it to my class about the Western Michigan 856 00:53:42,360 --> 00:53:45,120 sighting. I That's when I first had the 857 00:53:45,120 --> 00:53:49,800 introduction to the debunkers. And by debunker, I mean that 858 00:53:49,800 --> 00:53:53,360 class of skeptics who speak in the name of science very often. 859 00:53:53,520 --> 00:53:58,640 Carl Sagan was famous for this. And now Neil deGrasse Tyson is 860 00:53:58,640 --> 00:54:02,840 sort of the latest TV scientist. I don't know what real science 861 00:54:02,840 --> 00:54:07,640 he does apart from being on TV. And they tried him out as the, 862 00:54:08,640 --> 00:54:13,880 as a, as a representative of science and generally in, in 863 00:54:14,120 --> 00:54:18,320 televised debates about the paranormal and extraterrestrials 864 00:54:18,320 --> 00:54:21,800 and the UFO phenomenon. The generally the last 15 865 00:54:21,800 --> 00:54:25,080 minutes of an hour long show is now we're going to bring on the 866 00:54:25,080 --> 00:54:27,760 skeptics who basically dismiss it all. 867 00:54:28,200 --> 00:54:31,240 So I, I don't think skepticism. I do. 868 00:54:31,240 --> 00:54:33,680 I distinguish between genuine skepticism. 869 00:54:34,600 --> 00:54:36,480 Well, like what? What happened? 870 00:54:36,480 --> 00:54:39,520 Tell me your story. Is it possible there's another 871 00:54:39,520 --> 00:54:43,120 interpretation? Asking good critical, critically 872 00:54:43,120 --> 00:54:47,600 minded question, not needing to believe anything in advance is 873 00:54:47,600 --> 00:54:50,080 different. That kind of skepticism is 874 00:54:50,080 --> 00:54:53,200 healthy. When someone says I saw your 875 00:54:53,200 --> 00:54:55,160 wife with another man, are you going to say, oh, that's 876 00:54:55,160 --> 00:55:00,200 interesting, or are you going to say where, when? 877 00:55:01,080 --> 00:55:03,800 Tell me how I can find you. I want to confirm that you know, 878 00:55:04,240 --> 00:55:06,920 of course you want evidence. You just want basic information. 879 00:55:07,480 --> 00:55:09,720 Yeah, this is what good detective stories are about. 880 00:55:10,360 --> 00:55:13,400 There's a kind of toxic skepticism that passes for 881 00:55:13,400 --> 00:55:15,320 skepticism. And that's the debunker who 882 00:55:15,320 --> 00:55:19,480 immediately says, well, this UFO stuff is really nonsense. 883 00:55:20,040 --> 00:55:23,360 Oh, tell us more about that. Well, because we know that 884 00:55:23,720 --> 00:55:26,920 reality doesn't do this. There aren't these the speed of 885 00:55:26,920 --> 00:55:29,880 light question. They could not get here from 886 00:55:29,880 --> 00:55:33,280 Alpha Centauri. All of these could not is not 887 00:55:33,760 --> 00:55:37,680 therefore could not therefore is not we can't explain it. 888 00:55:37,680 --> 00:55:42,040 Therefore it didn't happen what this does and I I got I got wind 889 00:55:42,040 --> 00:55:46,200 of this early before that's why I went the route I went to study 890 00:55:46,200 --> 00:55:49,760 people like Jung and Joseph Campbell and myth bringing in 891 00:55:49,760 --> 00:55:52,600 mythological thinking. It doesn't make it easier to 892 00:55:52,600 --> 00:55:57,120 bring this stuff in, but it's important to bring it in If we 893 00:55:57,120 --> 00:56:01,800 have if, if they're if they're a phenomena that well. 894 00:56:01,800 --> 00:56:03,360 So what happens is with the debunkers. 895 00:56:03,360 --> 00:56:04,960 That's what I want to. I'm going to stay on that point. 896 00:56:05,200 --> 00:56:09,480 The debunker basically says in response to a witness testimony 897 00:56:09,760 --> 00:56:12,040 that didn't happen. We know that reality doesn't 898 00:56:12,040 --> 00:56:15,480 behave this way. This kind of knee jerk dismissal 899 00:56:16,000 --> 00:56:20,600 of phenomena drives the phenomena into the underground, 900 00:56:20,600 --> 00:56:23,680 if you will, to the deep unconscious of the culture. 901 00:56:24,160 --> 00:56:29,560 So what makes the UFO phenomena difficult, challenging, and 902 00:56:29,560 --> 00:56:33,560 ultimately an opportunity to think big is that it brings in 903 00:56:33,560 --> 00:56:36,600 the human unconscious. Because these phenomena are 904 00:56:36,600 --> 00:56:40,840 officially dismissed by the official agents of culture. 905 00:56:41,040 --> 00:56:45,760 In science, academia, and the news media, there's always the 906 00:56:45,760 --> 00:56:48,520 giggle factor. I can't tell you the number of 907 00:56:48,800 --> 00:56:51,320 and I don't mind. I I find it amusing the number 908 00:56:51,320 --> 00:56:56,320 of podcasts and media events I've done for this book, The UFO 909 00:56:56,320 --> 00:56:59,960 Paradox. They begin with The X-Files 910 00:56:59,960 --> 00:57:02,960 music. They bring up the interview with 911 00:57:02,960 --> 00:57:05,640 The X-Files music. And I don't mind. 912 00:57:06,080 --> 00:57:08,720 I'm always aware, Oh, this is where the interview is going to 913 00:57:08,720 --> 00:57:10,480 go. We're going to go with a little 914 00:57:10,480 --> 00:57:12,640 bit of tongue in cheek. I'm up for that. 915 00:57:13,320 --> 00:57:16,960 So it's it, it takes a certain amount of calibration to say, 916 00:57:16,960 --> 00:57:19,960 OK, I'm I'm dealing with a phenomenon that is officially 917 00:57:19,960 --> 00:57:23,200 has a big laugh factor associated with it. 918 00:57:23,560 --> 00:57:26,800 And to me, that's just part of the, the working conditions of, 919 00:57:27,240 --> 00:57:30,240 of exploring phenomena like this, because it's no way around 920 00:57:30,240 --> 00:57:33,280 the fact that debunkers set the terms. 921 00:57:33,360 --> 00:57:36,040 And I, I'm not here to do, I'm not here to complain about that. 922 00:57:36,400 --> 00:57:39,120 The debunkers, it tells us a lot about their psychology. 923 00:57:39,480 --> 00:57:44,240 The immediate impulse to debunk a phenomenon is not a scientific 924 00:57:44,240 --> 00:57:47,760 impulse, even though it is often done by people who claim to be 925 00:57:47,760 --> 00:57:51,000 speaking in the name of science. It's it's closer to the 926 00:57:51,000 --> 00:57:54,200 phenomenon of the Vatican officials who who paid that 927 00:57:54,200 --> 00:57:58,240 famous visit to Galileo and said, you've got to stop saying 928 00:57:58,600 --> 00:58:01,440 that the Earth revolves around the sun when we know that the 929 00:58:01,440 --> 00:58:05,160 sun revolves around the Earth. And he said, well, you don't 930 00:58:05,160 --> 00:58:08,480 have to take my word for it. I've got this thing called a 931 00:58:08,480 --> 00:58:12,120 telescope and I look into the sky with it and you can see and 932 00:58:12,120 --> 00:58:15,120 also my table over here, all my computations. 933 00:58:15,240 --> 00:58:17,800 You're welcome to spend the afternoon and we can talk about 934 00:58:17,800 --> 00:58:20,640 my computations. They said no to all of that. 935 00:58:20,760 --> 00:58:22,560 We don't want to read your computations. 936 00:58:22,880 --> 00:58:25,480 We don't want to look through your telescope because we know 937 00:58:25,480 --> 00:58:29,400 from our faith how the universe is set up. 938 00:58:29,920 --> 00:58:32,240 And if you keep saying this, we're going to put you under 939 00:58:32,240 --> 00:58:34,840 house arrest. Well, he did get a kind of house 940 00:58:34,840 --> 00:58:38,640 arrest, a kind of genial accommodation. 941 00:58:38,920 --> 00:58:42,040 They told him to settle down and stop making these claims. 942 00:58:42,280 --> 00:58:45,960 Then in the late 1960s, I think finally the Vatican said, oh, by 943 00:58:45,960 --> 00:58:50,400 the way, Galileo was right. Oh, thank you for correcting 944 00:58:50,400 --> 00:58:53,280 that long standing error on your part. 945 00:58:53,480 --> 00:58:57,280 So whereas it was, it was the Vatican who made it necessary. 946 00:58:57,280 --> 00:59:00,080 And the Vatican, I mean organized religion in general, 947 00:59:00,320 --> 00:59:02,880 made it necessary to have a separate body of evidence called 948 00:59:02,880 --> 00:59:06,600 science that didn't depend on faith, where you could challenge 949 00:59:06,600 --> 00:59:09,760 faith assumptions. Now it is the people who act in 950 00:59:09,760 --> 00:59:13,400 the name of science who are actually far more dogmatic and 951 00:59:13,400 --> 00:59:16,200 dismissing this phenomena in advance in a way that is not 952 00:59:16,200 --> 00:59:18,800 truly scientific. It's one of the perplexing 953 00:59:19,120 --> 00:59:19,920 aspects of. All this. 954 00:59:20,240 --> 00:59:22,840 Yeah. I think for me, what I realized 955 00:59:22,840 --> 00:59:26,240 too, I'm not, you know, you see people out there and I've 956 00:59:26,240 --> 00:59:30,480 interviewed Mick West and I think he's, you know, he's a 957 00:59:30,480 --> 00:59:32,280 nice guy. I could see where I, he rubs 958 00:59:32,280 --> 00:59:37,920 people the wrong way though, in his, his quest to, to debunk 959 00:59:37,920 --> 00:59:40,560 these videos and pictures and things like that. 960 00:59:42,120 --> 00:59:47,600 But I, I'm more in the camp of the cognitive bias stuff. 961 00:59:47,600 --> 00:59:50,800 So like I've noticed from interacting with the community 962 00:59:50,800 --> 00:59:53,080 and stuff like that, I've met a lot of cool people. 963 00:59:53,320 --> 00:59:57,120 Most people are honest. There are grifters though. 964 00:59:57,120 --> 01:00:00,200 There's grifters, there's mentally ill people, there's 965 01:00:01,680 --> 01:00:04,880 people that are very stubborn that treat it like a religion 966 01:00:04,880 --> 01:00:07,800 that. You know, somebody who believes 967 01:00:07,800 --> 01:00:10,920 the Bible word for word but doesn't understand the origins 968 01:00:10,920 --> 01:00:13,720 of where any of it comes from, that kind of a thing. 969 01:00:14,320 --> 01:00:16,920 So there are people like that in the community. 970 01:00:16,920 --> 01:00:22,280 And again, I'm not here to like, you know, question anybody's 971 01:00:22,280 --> 01:00:23,760 experiences or anything like that. 972 01:00:23,760 --> 01:00:28,440 But I will say that when I listen to stuff or I see stuff, 973 01:00:29,400 --> 01:00:32,720 I'm, I'm using it, I'm, I'm approaching it through the lens 974 01:00:32,720 --> 01:00:36,240 of what I understand about human cognitive bias, whether it be 975 01:00:36,640 --> 01:00:43,520 apophenia, pareidolia, you know, just bias in general. 976 01:00:43,960 --> 01:00:48,440 Even Dunning Kruger. Oh, I, you know, I could, you 977 01:00:48,440 --> 01:00:52,680 know, fly that plane better understand this better, whatever 978 01:00:52,680 --> 01:00:55,280 the, the case may be, you see a lot of that too. 979 01:00:55,280 --> 01:01:01,840 So I, you know, it's tough because like I said, I, I do 980 01:01:01,840 --> 01:01:04,920 witness a lot of stuff online where I'm like, how are even, 981 01:01:05,240 --> 01:01:08,200 you know, is Facebooks gotten bad by the way too with the fake 982 01:01:08,200 --> 01:01:14,520 videos and the AI and CGI hard to and, and, and it does fool 983 01:01:14,520 --> 01:01:16,960 people. And I could see that if you have 984 01:01:16,960 --> 01:01:20,280 no experience with any of this and you know, whatever, But at 985 01:01:20,280 --> 01:01:22,680 the same time, it's like if you're looking at this through a 986 01:01:22,680 --> 01:01:25,960 critical lens, you have to be completely honest about all the 987 01:01:25,960 --> 01:01:31,720 flaws that are there too. So while I love science and I do 988 01:01:31,720 --> 01:01:35,520 understand what you're saying about like the Neil degrasse and 989 01:01:35,520 --> 01:01:40,520 the Bill Nye and all that kind of stuff, I do think that there 990 01:01:40,520 --> 01:01:44,800 are legitimate scientists that do entertain this on a, on a 991 01:01:45,760 --> 01:01:50,640 honest level as well. And those people have 992 01:01:50,640 --> 01:01:53,600 interesting ideas of what it could be and what what it can't 993 01:01:53,600 --> 01:01:57,080 be and things like that too, so. Many of them will admit 994 01:01:57,080 --> 01:01:59,440 privately they don't do it publicly for the same reason 995 01:01:59,440 --> 01:02:04,680 that that Kenneth Arnold kept to himself the larger speculations, 996 01:02:04,680 --> 01:02:06,480 including that he went home that day. 997 01:02:06,680 --> 01:02:10,040 His house was filled with orbs of light that would have been 998 01:02:10,040 --> 01:02:13,880 the most self cancelling, that would have completely cancelled 999 01:02:13,960 --> 01:02:17,480 everything he had said that day about the objects that seem to 1000 01:02:17,480 --> 01:02:20,920 be skipping like saucers. So what I'm, what I'm getting at 1001 01:02:20,920 --> 01:02:22,720 here is a lot of these researchers who do take it 1002 01:02:22,720 --> 01:02:27,320 seriously and do science keep to themselves, their own that many 1003 01:02:27,320 --> 01:02:29,000 of them have mystical experiences. 1004 01:02:29,000 --> 01:02:32,680 They have they have profound psychological experiences that 1005 01:02:32,680 --> 01:02:35,080 raise for them the question of what is real. 1006 01:02:35,760 --> 01:02:40,400 And now I get asked a lot do is my book about disclosure. 1007 01:02:41,440 --> 01:02:46,000 Do I cover disclosure? My response is almost always I 1008 01:02:46,000 --> 01:02:49,600 cover nothing but disclosure. But I don't think I mean by that 1009 01:02:49,600 --> 01:02:53,480 what you mean. I think the main disclosure is 1010 01:02:53,480 --> 01:02:58,520 the phenomenon that can do these things, that presents itself in 1011 01:02:58,520 --> 01:03:03,160 these forms that that cross the boundary between mind and matter 1012 01:03:03,600 --> 01:03:06,160 in ways that again, are self canceling. 1013 01:03:06,760 --> 01:03:10,200 A good UFO report is going to almost Whitley Strieber, the 1014 01:03:10,200 --> 01:03:14,920 author of Communion, the great abduction story of the about the 1015 01:03:14,920 --> 01:03:17,960 20th century of you. He put on the map this idea of 1016 01:03:17,960 --> 01:03:20,640 the abduction experience. He happened to be a very gifted 1017 01:03:20,640 --> 01:03:22,000 writer. He wrote this book called 1018 01:03:22,000 --> 01:03:25,720 Communion. He has talked about how if he 1019 01:03:25,720 --> 01:03:30,440 could do it over again, would he have told all the details of the 1020 01:03:30,440 --> 01:03:37,160 probing that the creatures did of his body and the deep 1021 01:03:37,160 --> 01:03:40,640 embarrassment about many of the aspects. 1022 01:03:41,160 --> 01:03:44,720 The So anyway, what what I'm getting at here is to me, the 1023 01:03:44,720 --> 01:03:49,680 disclosure is the wildness of the events themselves versus the 1024 01:03:49,680 --> 01:03:55,360 current emphasis on government disclosure as if it is certain 1025 01:03:55,360 --> 01:03:57,400 that the, you know, the government has the answers. 1026 01:03:57,400 --> 01:04:00,520 Any day now. This is the if there's a, if 1027 01:04:00,520 --> 01:04:04,200 there's a mythos or a narrative at the heart of the UFO 1028 01:04:04,200 --> 01:04:06,560 phenomenon, I don't know of one that is more fundamental than 1029 01:04:06,560 --> 01:04:09,600 this one. Any day now, the lid on the 1030 01:04:09,600 --> 01:04:12,680 government cover up is going to blow sky high. 1031 01:04:13,880 --> 01:04:17,600 I've been at this phenomenon long enough to know, and being 1032 01:04:17,600 --> 01:04:22,280 an older citizen, if you will, that this has been going on 1033 01:04:22,280 --> 01:04:25,640 since the 1940's, the expectation of an imminent 1034 01:04:25,640 --> 01:04:27,440 disclosure. The government knows more than 1035 01:04:27,440 --> 01:04:29,600 they're saying, which by the way, I believe is true. 1036 01:04:29,840 --> 01:04:34,120 I don't disregard the idea that there is been, there's been 1037 01:04:34,120 --> 01:04:37,520 government dissembling, hiding stuff. 1038 01:04:37,720 --> 01:04:41,520 But I think the best hypothesis is, and I know there are people 1039 01:04:41,600 --> 01:04:44,160 probably listening to who might, who might disagree, who really 1040 01:04:44,160 --> 01:04:46,720 do believe the government has figured it all out. 1041 01:04:47,240 --> 01:04:51,520 And they're they're now doing a strategic disclosure in doses we 1042 01:04:51,520 --> 01:04:54,080 can tolerate. Again, we've heard, I've heard 1043 01:04:54,080 --> 01:04:56,800 this for so long. I think that what the government 1044 01:04:56,800 --> 01:05:00,480 is hiding is that this phenomenon has us outclassed. 1045 01:05:02,840 --> 01:05:04,960 I agree. I, I, I don't think we, I, I 1046 01:05:04,960 --> 01:05:07,040 think and I argue with people all the time. 1047 01:05:07,040 --> 01:05:09,880 I, I have friends that believe what you're saying that we have 1048 01:05:09,880 --> 01:05:15,520 craft that we've back engineered and you know, the Bob Lazar and 1049 01:05:15,920 --> 01:05:18,240 all the secrecy. And I disagree. 1050 01:05:18,360 --> 01:05:21,360 You know, like even the Manhattan Project, which was our 1051 01:05:21,360 --> 01:05:26,680 most top secret project we've ever had, had, you know, moles 1052 01:05:26,680 --> 01:05:30,480 and leaks and you know, the Canadian stuff where, you know, 1053 01:05:30,480 --> 01:05:33,440 and the, the we even told Russia about it and they didn't 1054 01:05:33,440 --> 01:05:36,680 believe. I know it was a Roosevelt told 1055 01:05:36,880 --> 01:05:39,640 Stalin that we had this thing and he didn't even believe them 1056 01:05:39,640 --> 01:05:44,560 and this kind of stuff. So like, who's who's the UFO 1057 01:05:45,480 --> 01:05:48,960 Oppenheimer, who's the UFO Einstein or Niels Bohr or 1058 01:05:48,960 --> 01:05:51,120 whoever, Like we don't have that. 1059 01:05:51,120 --> 01:05:54,720 So like that tells me that this is a far stranger, weirder 1060 01:05:54,720 --> 01:05:57,080 thing. So to think that our government, 1061 01:05:57,080 --> 01:06:02,640 which seems, let's face it, not great at concealing things like 1062 01:06:02,640 --> 01:06:04,880 that, you know, I mean, I, and you can make the argument that 1063 01:06:04,880 --> 01:06:07,200 we're better at that with the military stuff, whatever. 1064 01:06:07,200 --> 01:06:09,000 But again, look at the Manhattan Project. 1065 01:06:09,280 --> 01:06:15,040 I don't, I don't think that we have this stuff nailed down 1066 01:06:15,040 --> 01:06:18,080 'cause I don't know who are the scientists, who are these 1067 01:06:18,080 --> 01:06:22,680 intelligent people behind the scenes that are figuring this 1068 01:06:22,680 --> 01:06:27,000 stuff out, 'cause I have yet to see anybody like that come out 1069 01:06:27,000 --> 01:06:31,960 where it's like, Oh my God. Like, you know, and, and I, I, I 1070 01:06:31,960 --> 01:06:37,800 maybe you disagree, but I just, I don't see this, these people 1071 01:06:37,800 --> 01:06:41,400 that we've had in the past that have brought us into this 1072 01:06:41,400 --> 01:06:45,640 paradigm that we're in now coming out and saying we have 1073 01:06:45,640 --> 01:06:48,080 this or we know about this or whatever. 1074 01:06:48,840 --> 01:06:52,840 It just seems like, like you said, we're outclassed or we're 1075 01:06:53,120 --> 01:06:57,680 so far from understanding what's going on that we can pretend 1076 01:06:57,680 --> 01:07:00,160 like we're on top of it, but we're really not, or something 1077 01:07:00,160 --> 01:07:01,760 along those. Lines, yeah, there's just so 1078 01:07:01,760 --> 01:07:05,880 much of it repeated about we have fully intact craft that 1079 01:07:05,880 --> 01:07:08,200 have been captured and in the back. 1080 01:07:08,200 --> 01:07:11,600 Engineer, where do they, where are they recovered from? 1081 01:07:11,600 --> 01:07:13,800 Are they always generally on government? 1082 01:07:14,040 --> 01:07:16,960 Why are there no craft that land in, you know, central? 1083 01:07:16,960 --> 01:07:18,680 I don't even mean the White House landing. 1084 01:07:18,800 --> 01:07:20,520 Why don't they land on the White House lawn? 1085 01:07:20,520 --> 01:07:25,440 That's a old cliche. But why don't they land in in 1086 01:07:25,440 --> 01:07:29,840 places where there are witnesses that take photographs, that 1087 01:07:30,080 --> 01:07:33,960 they're always they're recovered fully, fully intact craft? 1088 01:07:34,160 --> 01:07:36,320 And they crash. They're so advanced, but they 1089 01:07:36,320 --> 01:07:40,120 crash everywhere. They crash and Ross Coldheart, 1090 01:07:40,120 --> 01:07:44,160 the the Woodward and Bernstein, I guess of the of the UFO field, 1091 01:07:44,160 --> 01:07:47,240 the sole researcher, the sole journalist who makes this his 1092 01:07:47,800 --> 01:07:50,800 thing. Remember the the the guy Jake 1093 01:07:50,800 --> 01:07:54,520 Barber 8 months ago or has it been a has it been a year yet? 1094 01:07:56,040 --> 01:08:01,280 Newsmax, not Newsmax, but net whatever his network is covered 1095 01:08:01,280 --> 01:08:05,720 this this guy who anyway, the point they don't they don't pan 1096 01:08:05,720 --> 01:08:07,800 out. Jake Barber was supposed to be 1097 01:08:07,800 --> 01:08:12,200 the breakthrough, the paradigm shift that that is going to now 1098 01:08:12,360 --> 01:08:16,680 hasten disclosure and there's going to be and something's 1099 01:08:16,680 --> 01:08:20,359 going to happen in 2027. By the way, Ross Coldheart says 1100 01:08:20,359 --> 01:08:27,359 he knows of a of the location of a craft that is a mile in size. 1101 01:08:28,120 --> 01:08:31,840 Larger, Well, very, very, very, very large craft underground. 1102 01:08:31,840 --> 01:08:36,000 Where is that Ross? I can't tell you National 1103 01:08:36,200 --> 01:08:37,399 because it would hurt our national. 1104 01:08:37,399 --> 01:08:39,680 Sounds like an Alien versus Predator movie. 1105 01:08:40,520 --> 01:08:43,200 Yeah, it really does. It's it's this is always, you 1106 01:08:43,200 --> 01:08:46,120 know, there's a new movie coming out, the new, the new disclosure 1107 01:08:46,120 --> 01:08:48,439 movie coming out in November. A lot of the people who were 1108 01:08:48,439 --> 01:08:51,640 interviewed in that, I know them and they, they generally and, 1109 01:08:51,640 --> 01:08:57,120 and I, I trust that they, they said, they say things like I 1110 01:08:57,120 --> 01:09:02,359 have talked with people who have had their hands on these craft. 1111 01:09:03,040 --> 01:09:06,120 I can't tell you more, however, why? 1112 01:09:06,720 --> 01:09:09,359 Well, because in some cases because of their own alleged 1113 01:09:09,359 --> 01:09:13,359 national security clearances, at some point it's put up or shut 1114 01:09:13,359 --> 01:09:14,880 up. So bring it. 1115 01:09:15,080 --> 01:09:19,040 I think what for me what what comes down to is this phenomenon 1116 01:09:19,040 --> 01:09:22,640 has become so deeply enmeshed in the national security 1117 01:09:22,640 --> 01:09:27,960 intelligence military framework that it is it has come to define 1118 01:09:27,960 --> 01:09:31,000 the phenomena and there's a lot of the phenomena that doesn't 1119 01:09:31,000 --> 01:09:36,200 fit the national security intelligence state framework. 1120 01:09:36,560 --> 01:09:42,359 So I mean, there are people who are out out this very weekend, 1121 01:09:42,359 --> 01:09:46,160 probably doing close encounters of the fifth kind, trying to 1122 01:09:46,160 --> 01:09:49,240 call the craft in. I say, yes, OK, now that makes 1123 01:09:49,240 --> 01:09:51,319 sense. Go if if you, if you really 1124 01:09:51,319 --> 01:09:55,080 believe, if, if your evidence is that you are able through the 1125 01:09:55,080 --> 01:10:00,240 state of your consciousness to invite this phenomena in, let's 1126 01:10:00,240 --> 01:10:03,280 go for it. That is far more productive in 1127 01:10:03,280 --> 01:10:06,360 terms of evidence gathering than this. 1128 01:10:06,400 --> 01:10:11,800 This refrain of the government has the answers. 1129 01:10:12,080 --> 01:10:15,240 And by probably 2027, it's always a pushing. 1130 01:10:15,560 --> 01:10:19,160 There's always a date that keeps us moving forward with this 1131 01:10:19,160 --> 01:10:22,080 phenomenon. I've sort of begun to identify 1132 01:10:22,520 --> 01:10:27,160 those frameworks as you know, it's kind of disinformation, but 1133 01:10:27,160 --> 01:10:30,120 it's it's willing disinformation at some point when we when we 1134 01:10:30,120 --> 01:10:34,920 believe these explanations about disclosure being imminent. 1135 01:10:35,040 --> 01:10:37,440 Again, the the greatest disclosure is the events 1136 01:10:37,440 --> 01:10:41,480 themselves and how they confound our rational categories. 1137 01:10:41,480 --> 01:10:44,840 That's the disclosure that I try to document. 1138 01:10:45,720 --> 01:10:48,280 And I, I think the other thing that gets lost too is people 1139 01:10:48,280 --> 01:10:51,520 think of the government is this monolithic entity where 1140 01:10:51,520 --> 01:10:55,520 everybody's in, you know, communication with each other. 1141 01:10:55,520 --> 01:10:57,360 And, and I don't think that's true. 1142 01:10:57,360 --> 01:10:59,600 I think a lot of these departments have beefs with each 1143 01:10:59,600 --> 01:11:00,680 other. They're different, they have 1144 01:11:00,680 --> 01:11:02,600 different people, they have different moving parts. 1145 01:11:02,960 --> 01:11:06,320 On top of that, they're just human beings too, You know, like 1146 01:11:06,320 --> 01:11:08,840 we can talk about scientists just being human beings that use 1147 01:11:08,840 --> 01:11:13,480 the scientific method or priests being human beings that have a 1148 01:11:13,480 --> 01:11:16,360 way of faith or whatever. These are just human beings that 1149 01:11:16,360 --> 01:11:20,760 work for this entity that they could have their own beliefs. 1150 01:11:20,760 --> 01:11:24,400 This could be, we could be this thing of disclosure could be 1151 01:11:24,400 --> 01:11:28,360 colored by people that you know, like anything else. 1152 01:11:28,360 --> 01:11:32,560 There's people that are Christian or Buddhist or 1153 01:11:32,560 --> 01:11:36,240 whatever and they have their own thoughts on life and philosophy 1154 01:11:36,240 --> 01:11:37,960 and death. Same thing with this. 1155 01:11:37,960 --> 01:11:40,960 There could be people within the government that truly believe 1156 01:11:40,960 --> 01:11:43,400 this stuff. With the myth stuff and the 1157 01:11:43,400 --> 01:11:45,720 mythologizing stuff. I think that's where we have to 1158 01:11:45,720 --> 01:11:47,280 be careful when you're looking at this. 1159 01:11:47,280 --> 01:11:50,200 If you truly want to know something, you kind of have to 1160 01:11:50,200 --> 01:11:54,760 pick apart the myth and understand what was the origin 1161 01:11:54,760 --> 01:11:56,560 of this myth. Kind of like you do with the 1162 01:11:56,560 --> 01:11:59,640 kind of thorn old stuff. Because I think that when you go 1163 01:11:59,640 --> 01:12:03,560 down the wrong path, it colors your future trajectory on 1164 01:12:03,560 --> 01:12:05,440 understanding. And I think that that's kind of 1165 01:12:05,440 --> 01:12:08,800 where we've gotten with this, where we've gone so far down the 1166 01:12:08,800 --> 01:12:12,760 road with this idea of flying saucers being from outer space. 1167 01:12:12,760 --> 01:12:16,200 That now there's so many people that believe that, or at least 1168 01:12:16,200 --> 01:12:20,320 it's in the zeitgeist and psyche and everything that it's hard to 1169 01:12:20,320 --> 01:12:24,160 get out of that. So when you're talking about non 1170 01:12:24,160 --> 01:12:28,280 physical States and psychedelics and altered States and near 1171 01:12:28,280 --> 01:12:31,680 death experiences and things like that, well it's like it's 1172 01:12:31,680 --> 01:12:34,960 hard to get people to shift from that because they're so set in 1173 01:12:34,960 --> 01:12:36,840 their ways on that. Just like people get with 1174 01:12:36,840 --> 01:12:39,040 religion, just like people get with anything else. 1175 01:12:39,040 --> 01:12:42,760 So. Well, and my friend Jeffrey 1176 01:12:42,760 --> 01:12:47,920 Cripple, Perezia Cripple of Rice University, runs an division. 1177 01:12:47,920 --> 01:12:50,920 They're called the Archives of the Impossible, and he has 1178 01:12:50,920 --> 01:12:54,600 written numerous books about the just about the entire category 1179 01:12:54,600 --> 01:12:58,120 of the impossible. These phenomena are impossible 1180 01:12:58,120 --> 01:13:01,200 not because they really are impossible, but because they 1181 01:13:01,200 --> 01:13:05,200 fall outside the paradigms of what we call possible and so 1182 01:13:05,200 --> 01:13:07,360 that they are officially impossible. 1183 01:13:07,760 --> 01:13:11,640 But he says we must pursue the impossible, what we call the 1184 01:13:11,640 --> 01:13:15,200 impossible. That's the largest requirement 1185 01:13:15,200 --> 01:13:18,840 we have with all of this. And so I associate myself a lot 1186 01:13:18,840 --> 01:13:22,680 with Jeff Cripple on that. And there are researchers. 1187 01:13:23,000 --> 01:13:25,800 I, I noticed one of the researchers recently said he 1188 01:13:25,800 --> 01:13:30,560 believes there are now easily 6 categories of aliens that are, 1189 01:13:30,560 --> 01:13:34,960 that are making contact with us and that they are at odds with 1190 01:13:34,960 --> 01:13:37,600 themselves. So they're not even on the same 1191 01:13:37,600 --> 01:13:39,960 team. And I kind of said, what is your 1192 01:13:39,960 --> 01:13:43,480 evidence for that? Not that there aren't pretend 1193 01:13:43,480 --> 01:13:46,800 potentially such, but saying with such certainty that we know 1194 01:13:46,800 --> 01:13:48,800 it. We now know, see the, the, the 1195 01:13:48,800 --> 01:13:52,680 degree to which our language says, well, we now know that 1196 01:13:52,680 --> 01:13:58,000 there are 6 species of aliens. And it's very clear, really very 1197 01:13:58,000 --> 01:14:00,720 clear. These things get repeated. 1198 01:14:00,720 --> 01:14:03,240 Instead, they're very clear that they are at odds with 1199 01:14:03,240 --> 01:14:06,280 themselves. And so the tall Gray, the short 1200 01:14:06,280 --> 01:14:11,800 Grays and the tall whites are at deep, deeply at odds with 1201 01:14:11,800 --> 01:14:14,840 themselves. OK, that's myth making, doesn't 1202 01:14:14,840 --> 01:14:19,480 mean it's false, but it's uncorroborated and it and it 1203 01:14:19,480 --> 01:14:22,640 falls out into the realm. So ultimately, this phenomenon 1204 01:14:22,640 --> 01:14:25,680 poses a great challenge. How do you determine fact from 1205 01:14:25,680 --> 01:14:28,040 fiction? It ultimately comes down. 1206 01:14:28,280 --> 01:14:30,080 So yeah, the debunkers have their role. 1207 01:14:30,600 --> 01:14:33,320 Genuine skeptics. Well, people are gonna listen to 1208 01:14:33,320 --> 01:14:36,320 this back and forth we've had for the last 15 minutes now and 1209 01:14:36,320 --> 01:14:39,120 be like they're debunking or they're skeptical. 1210 01:14:39,120 --> 01:14:41,720 No, what I'm saying is there's something real. 1211 01:14:41,720 --> 01:14:43,440 And I think you would agree there's something real at the 1212 01:14:43,440 --> 01:14:47,640 heart of this. However, it gets bastardized or 1213 01:14:47,640 --> 01:14:52,480 colored in a wrong way or, you know, people are people, You 1214 01:14:52,480 --> 01:14:55,680 know, we're all flawed. So you have to accept that some 1215 01:14:55,680 --> 01:14:58,480 people are wrong, or some people are delusional, or some people 1216 01:14:58,480 --> 01:14:59,960 just don't know what they're talking about. 1217 01:15:00,160 --> 01:15:02,200 Well, and I think there's you can make a distinction between 1218 01:15:02,560 --> 01:15:04,840 having a degree of certainty. There's something going on 1219 01:15:05,280 --> 01:15:07,560 ontologically. Again, it's a fancy word for the 1220 01:15:07,560 --> 01:15:11,560 division of philosophy that this studies the nature of being what 1221 01:15:11,560 --> 01:15:15,680 exists, what is real. So there's something going on. 1222 01:15:16,560 --> 01:15:20,880 It is on the interpretation that my critical thinking comes in. 1223 01:15:21,080 --> 01:15:25,240 I'm an agnostic about various interpretations of the real 1224 01:15:25,240 --> 01:15:28,360 thing that is going on. So yeah, if you just tuned in 1225 01:15:28,360 --> 01:15:32,040 the last 15 minutes, this Keith Thompson sounds like a debunker. 1226 01:15:32,520 --> 01:15:35,760 He sounds caustically skeptical, a blah, blah, blah. 1227 01:15:36,080 --> 01:15:38,040 I'm skeptical of interpretations. 1228 01:15:38,160 --> 01:15:41,000 We need better stories, need better interpretation. 1229 01:15:41,000 --> 01:15:42,520 I need to hold them more lightly. 1230 01:15:42,760 --> 01:15:45,760 I don't know if this is exactly true, but I've heard that 1231 01:15:45,760 --> 01:15:49,560 Jacques Valet, who I've quoted this researcher who was one of 1232 01:15:49,560 --> 01:15:53,720 the first to originally bring in, let's look at mythology, 1233 01:15:53,880 --> 01:15:58,560 let's look at cultural reports for hundreds of years and do 1234 01:15:58,560 --> 01:16:02,520 that within the framework of the UFO phenomenon, he was recently 1235 01:16:02,520 --> 01:16:06,160 quoted as saying. In one of his podcasts, he said, 1236 01:16:06,400 --> 01:16:11,200 I don't find the UFO discourse fun anymore. 1237 01:16:12,040 --> 01:16:16,280 He's 89 years old. He's been at or 80 some years 1238 01:16:16,280 --> 01:16:18,160 old, been at it for a very long time. 1239 01:16:18,720 --> 01:16:23,960 When he says this is not fun anymore, I think he's referring 1240 01:16:23,960 --> 01:16:30,280 to these waves of overbelief at the interpretation level, these 1241 01:16:30,600 --> 01:16:33,840 expectation that there's going to be disclosure that never 1242 01:16:33,840 --> 01:16:36,160 comes. So then people then dismiss the 1243 01:16:36,160 --> 01:16:39,040 whole phenomenon because a particular interpretation 1244 01:16:39,040 --> 01:16:41,760 doesn't pan out. The debunkers can say, oh, see, 1245 01:16:41,760 --> 01:16:44,760 there's there's nothing here, There's nothing to see here, 1246 01:16:45,080 --> 01:16:48,760 there's something to see here. And we need to keep our 1247 01:16:49,160 --> 01:16:55,880 interpretations reasonable, not rash, not not not They need to 1248 01:16:55,880 --> 01:17:00,000 be evidence based. So, you know, if there are 66 1249 01:17:00,240 --> 01:17:04,320 species of aliens fighting among themselves, Well, tell me more 1250 01:17:04,320 --> 01:17:05,800 about what's the source of that story. 1251 01:17:05,800 --> 01:17:09,080 I'm a I'm a reporter. I want to track that story. 1252 01:17:09,200 --> 01:17:11,920 Teach me how I can verify what you're saying. 1253 01:17:12,120 --> 01:17:15,320 I come at it that way. If I wanted to prove what you're 1254 01:17:15,320 --> 01:17:19,160 saying, Sir, about the six species that are at war with 1255 01:17:19,160 --> 01:17:21,640 each other right near on this, right here on this planet. 1256 01:17:21,640 --> 01:17:24,680 Now, how could I pursue that to confirm what you're saying? 1257 01:17:25,280 --> 01:17:27,680 They often get very quiet as well. 1258 01:17:27,680 --> 01:17:31,520 I was told by somebody who's in the know, but he will lose his 1259 01:17:31,520 --> 01:17:34,120 security clearance and he will be court martial. 1260 01:17:34,120 --> 01:17:37,560 OK, that that one again. Okey doke. 1261 01:17:37,960 --> 01:17:42,320 Yeah, I, you know, and, and I got tired of that as well. 1262 01:17:42,320 --> 01:17:45,960 Not that I I look, I never had any belief that any of that was 1263 01:17:45,960 --> 01:17:49,040 going to come out anyways. If anything's going to happen, 1264 01:17:49,400 --> 01:17:52,160 it's probably going to happen. Like that movie Arrival where, 1265 01:17:52,160 --> 01:17:54,480 you know, something just appears. 1266 01:17:54,480 --> 01:17:58,280 We need linguists. We need psychologists, We need 1267 01:17:58,760 --> 01:18:00,520 scientists. Yeah. 1268 01:18:00,520 --> 01:18:03,280 Our best people. So, you know, this idea that, 1269 01:18:03,840 --> 01:18:08,360 you know, that something traversed, you know, the Galaxy 1270 01:18:08,360 --> 01:18:11,320 but somehow crashed here by accident, you know, and it's 1271 01:18:11,320 --> 01:18:13,920 happened many times. Well, you know, then they have 1272 01:18:13,920 --> 01:18:16,760 to come up with this idea. Oh, it started happening after 1273 01:18:16,760 --> 01:18:20,040 we created the atomic bomb and you know, it started wiping 1274 01:18:20,040 --> 01:18:22,680 these things out from other dimensions and now that's why 1275 01:18:22,680 --> 01:18:25,000 they're landing in this dimension and turning physical 1276 01:18:25,000 --> 01:18:27,320 in this dimension. It's just like it's, it's, 1277 01:18:27,320 --> 01:18:32,560 there's so much layer upon layer of I don't want to say BS 'cause 1278 01:18:32,560 --> 01:18:35,280 I don't think it's BSI just think it's people's imaginations 1279 01:18:35,280 --> 01:18:37,800 running wild or people putting pieces together. 1280 01:18:37,800 --> 01:18:40,880 And how could this be true? And again, I have nothing 1281 01:18:40,880 --> 01:18:46,200 against, you know, thought experiments and talking shit or 1282 01:18:46,200 --> 01:18:49,080 whatever the case may be. But the problem is when you 1283 01:18:49,080 --> 01:18:53,800 start debating people or going after people or whatever, you 1284 01:18:53,800 --> 01:18:57,520 better have some information, some, some ducks in a row. 1285 01:18:57,520 --> 01:19:00,640 Because I think that it looks bad when you don't and that you 1286 01:19:00,640 --> 01:19:02,440 see a lot of people looking bad out there. 1287 01:19:03,480 --> 01:19:07,520 And I, I don't know if you're on X, but you know, yeah, I was 1288 01:19:07,520 --> 01:19:11,000 doing X spaces for a, a long time and trying to implement the 1289 01:19:11,040 --> 01:19:16,520 idea of philosophy and teleology, epistemology, 1290 01:19:16,800 --> 01:19:19,960 ontology, and, and integrating that into these conversations. 1291 01:19:19,960 --> 01:19:23,160 And there was people resistant to it, but there was also people 1292 01:19:23,160 --> 01:19:25,800 that were also interested in the, in those ideas. 1293 01:19:25,800 --> 01:19:30,040 And I think that because it's a, it's based in metaphysics, I 1294 01:19:30,040 --> 01:19:32,800 think that's the way you have to approach it because we don't 1295 01:19:32,800 --> 01:19:36,000 have the tools yet to quantify that. 1296 01:19:36,000 --> 01:19:40,120 So what I tell people is at very least it's interesting because 1297 01:19:40,640 --> 01:19:43,760 we're all being subjected to some sort of a mind virus of 1298 01:19:43,760 --> 01:19:46,040 believing something that doesn't actually exist. 1299 01:19:46,040 --> 01:19:48,600 That's that's the worst case possibility. 1300 01:19:48,960 --> 01:19:51,360 The best case possibility is kind of what we're talking about 1301 01:19:51,360 --> 01:19:54,240 now in my opinion, where there's something greater than us that 1302 01:19:54,240 --> 01:20:01,320 we can't quantify yet that's out there that hopefully we slowly 1303 01:20:01,840 --> 01:20:06,880 can, you know, whether it's understand it or communicate 1304 01:20:06,880 --> 01:20:11,800 with it or whatever it is. But yeah, I think that, yeah, I 1305 01:20:11,800 --> 01:20:14,240 just don't like dogmatism. I don't like it on either side. 1306 01:20:14,240 --> 01:20:16,880 I don't like scientists being super dogmatic and using 1307 01:20:16,880 --> 01:20:19,840 scientism. And I don't like the complete 1308 01:20:19,840 --> 01:20:23,040 believer that's unwilling to hear anything else other than 1309 01:20:23,040 --> 01:20:27,720 what they are, you know, they're pre predisposed ideas of what 1310 01:20:27,720 --> 01:20:30,080 this could be. So I'm kind of in the middle on 1311 01:20:30,080 --> 01:20:33,240 all that and I, I, from what you've explained, it sounds like 1312 01:20:33,240 --> 01:20:35,520 you are too. Yeah, I am. 1313 01:20:35,560 --> 01:20:37,840 And a matter of fact, I, I did mention, you know, that 1314 01:20:37,840 --> 01:20:40,800 Spielberg had that enormous impact that valet was concerned 1315 01:20:40,800 --> 01:20:42,880 about. You're going to over define this 1316 01:20:42,880 --> 01:20:45,400 as extraterrestrial. Now, by the way, I love the 1317 01:20:45,400 --> 01:20:48,360 closing of close Encounters. I the, the, the, the ship 1318 01:20:48,360 --> 01:20:53,520 landing and the, the, the human abductees all coming back out, 1319 01:20:53,760 --> 01:20:55,880 the ones who'd been taken for decades. 1320 01:20:56,240 --> 01:21:00,240 And they they named they said I'm Sergeant Smith, U.S. 1321 01:21:00,240 --> 01:21:03,320 Marine. My my code number. 1322 01:21:03,320 --> 01:21:09,240 Is this my anyway, the the powerful dramatic ending 1323 01:21:09,400 --> 01:21:12,160 Spielberg is now at work on on his next movie. 1324 01:21:12,640 --> 01:21:17,040 He's doing a movie in 2026. Apparently it's still on for for 1325 01:21:17,040 --> 01:21:19,040 release. He's calling it disclosure. 1326 01:21:20,240 --> 01:21:24,640 So I'm, I'm cannot wait to see what Spielberg, who has shaped 1327 01:21:24,640 --> 01:21:28,520 this phenomenon so, so powerfully, what he does with 1328 01:21:28,520 --> 01:21:29,960 disclosure. Is he going to go? 1329 01:21:29,960 --> 01:21:34,480 I imagine it's going to be a mix of yes, disclosure. 1330 01:21:34,960 --> 01:21:38,000 What does the government know? There are probably going to be a 1331 01:21:38,560 --> 01:21:42,560 character protagonist who's on to his secret but whose life is 1332 01:21:42,560 --> 01:21:46,400 in jeopardy because those in the know don't want it to be 1333 01:21:46,400 --> 01:21:49,000 revealed. That'll probably irresistible to 1334 01:21:49,000 --> 01:21:52,920 Spielberg. But by my reckoning, Spielberg 1335 01:21:52,920 --> 01:21:56,520 is a sharp enough cultural observer to know that there's 1336 01:21:56,640 --> 01:22:00,440 also an aspect of disclosure that pertains to what you're 1337 01:22:00,440 --> 01:22:03,880 what we're describing as the metaphysics that ultimately this 1338 01:22:03,880 --> 01:22:09,440 is the disclosure is about maybe our purpose, the larger purpose 1339 01:22:09,440 --> 01:22:14,480 of life that they, it, whatever this phenomenon are, is is is 1340 01:22:14,520 --> 01:22:18,800 trying to advance our understanding of this could be a 1341 01:22:18,880 --> 01:22:22,920 test, a an initiation. So anyway, is is he going to 1342 01:22:22,920 --> 01:22:27,280 play the wisely, play the edge between the disclosure of 1343 01:22:27,280 --> 01:22:30,680 government secrets and the disclosure of metaphysical 1344 01:22:30,680 --> 01:22:32,800 truths? Because I think they're bound 1345 01:22:32,800 --> 01:22:35,160 up. I don't dismiss the disclosure 1346 01:22:35,160 --> 01:22:37,960 thing, the government disclosure conversation. 1347 01:22:37,960 --> 01:22:41,320 I just finally say, at what point are we going to get beyond 1348 01:22:41,320 --> 01:22:43,280 the endless prediction? As I say, the old. 1349 01:22:43,280 --> 01:22:44,800 I would love it to be, by the way. 1350 01:22:44,800 --> 01:22:47,160 I would love it to be true because that would mean that we 1351 01:22:47,160 --> 01:22:51,560 do have the ability to keep secrets and we do have advanced 1352 01:22:52,000 --> 01:22:55,040 stuff like that. I just don't know where the 1353 01:22:55,040 --> 01:22:57,600 people that would be working on those things are coming from. 1354 01:22:57,600 --> 01:22:59,520 They've never seen the light of day ever. 1355 01:22:59,520 --> 01:23:01,760 They don't. There's never been any sort of a 1356 01:23:01,760 --> 01:23:06,320 real leak, you know, other than these ones that you know, you're 1357 01:23:06,320 --> 01:23:09,560 Lazar or whatever. You know, it's just, there's no, 1358 01:23:09,640 --> 01:23:14,440 there's to me, there's never been any real credible person 1359 01:23:14,440 --> 01:23:17,440 that didn't have some sort of questionable thing attached to 1360 01:23:17,440 --> 01:23:22,600 them in regards to that in in my opinion. 1361 01:23:22,600 --> 01:23:24,720 But again, I'm happy to be wrong. 1362 01:23:24,720 --> 01:23:27,520 I'm not saying that that's impossible or whatever. 1363 01:23:27,520 --> 01:23:31,160 I'm saying that everything that I've seen to this point points 1364 01:23:31,160 --> 01:23:36,160 to that being kind of just like, you know, somebody dangling a 1365 01:23:36,160 --> 01:23:38,520 carrot in front of a pony or something like that. 1366 01:23:38,520 --> 01:23:41,680 Well, let me say this you know the the famous disclosure case 1367 01:23:42,160 --> 01:23:46,280 some ways the paradigm case for a government cover up is Roswell 1368 01:23:46,880 --> 01:23:49,680 1947. Something landed something 1369 01:23:49,680 --> 01:23:54,480 crashed in the desert near Roswell Army base in in June of 1370 01:23:54,480 --> 01:23:59,080 1947 government first came out with a story that said a disk 1371 01:23:59,080 --> 01:24:02,600 has been recovered the next day. It wasn't a disk after all. 1372 01:24:02,600 --> 01:24:07,080 It was just a weather balloon. And and there's a pretty well 1373 01:24:07,200 --> 01:24:12,840 orchestrated, a pretty well confirmed case that the military 1374 01:24:12,840 --> 01:24:15,840 official who posed with the remnants was not telling the 1375 01:24:15,840 --> 01:24:18,920 truth as he saw it. So look, something more than a 1376 01:24:18,920 --> 01:24:23,000 weather balloon crashed. Was it an extraterrestrial craft 1377 01:24:23,000 --> 01:24:25,960 in the in the storm that night or that week? 1378 01:24:26,240 --> 01:24:29,720 Was it something of our own that went amiss? 1379 01:24:29,720 --> 01:24:30,320 Yeah. Was it? 1380 01:24:30,320 --> 01:24:34,320 Military came out and said it was a nuclear detection balloon. 1381 01:24:35,200 --> 01:24:38,400 Well, they certainly, I mean, I've talked to people who, who 1382 01:24:38,400 --> 01:24:41,640 just are very, very evidence oriented, who keep their 1383 01:24:41,960 --> 01:24:44,840 theories at a minimum. And, and they, they talk about 1384 01:24:44,840 --> 01:24:47,800 the fact that there's good evidence that the, the military 1385 01:24:47,800 --> 01:24:53,920 did go door to door in Roswell after most of these scraps were 1386 01:24:53,920 --> 01:24:56,640 picked up, raked off the desert floor. 1387 01:24:56,920 --> 01:25:00,360 If you picked up any of that, and if you're holding on to any 1388 01:25:00,360 --> 01:25:02,520 of it, you're going to get in very serious trouble. 1389 01:25:03,480 --> 01:25:05,960 I believe those conversations apparently did happen. 1390 01:25:06,240 --> 01:25:09,000 I mean, I have no doubt that that's a reasonable. 1391 01:25:09,160 --> 01:25:13,880 So something was so top secret they released, they were willing 1392 01:25:13,880 --> 01:25:16,360 at first to say that it was a flying saucer. 1393 01:25:16,520 --> 01:25:20,840 That's what they led with, then they backed off from that right 1394 01:25:20,840 --> 01:25:22,600 there. Yeah, I've got the article from 1395 01:25:22,600 --> 01:25:24,800 the Roswell Daily Record up there on my wall. 1396 01:25:25,000 --> 01:25:26,880 Exactly. It is legendary and it's it's a 1397 01:25:26,880 --> 01:25:27,640 myth. It's mythic. 1398 01:25:27,640 --> 01:25:30,200 And again I say Roswell is a mythic case. 1399 01:25:30,200 --> 01:25:31,640 I said, oh, you mean it didn't happen? 1400 01:25:32,000 --> 01:25:35,680 No, I, I, I just have to come to realize the term myth is, is. 1401 01:25:35,680 --> 01:25:40,200 So we need to recover language from sets of assumptions that 1402 01:25:40,680 --> 01:25:42,600 mythic thinking doesn't mean false. 1403 01:25:42,760 --> 01:25:47,760 It's by definition the Roswell is a mythic event, but I I find 1404 01:25:47,760 --> 01:25:52,840 that a phrase that doesn't close conversation, it should enlarge 1405 01:25:52,880 --> 01:25:55,440 the conversation. So I I still don't know. 1406 01:25:55,640 --> 01:25:58,880 I also don't think we're likely to probably know anything that 1407 01:25:58,880 --> 01:26:01,280 comes out about Roswell. By the way, what would 1408 01:26:01,280 --> 01:26:04,880 constitute good proof of the crash saucers? 1409 01:26:07,360 --> 01:26:09,680 Yeah, you would be. People would be assuming. 1410 01:26:09,680 --> 01:26:12,800 Yeah, you would have to know what alien technology looks 1411 01:26:12,800 --> 01:26:14,960 like. Well, you know, and did what 1412 01:26:14,960 --> 01:26:18,080 what Trump knows or doesn't know about. 1413 01:26:18,080 --> 01:26:21,960 And he's he makes playful remarks every now and then, just 1414 01:26:21,960 --> 01:26:25,240 as Obama did. Obama pretended as though I know 1415 01:26:25,240 --> 01:26:27,400 what happened, but I can't tell you the full story. 1416 01:26:27,920 --> 01:26:30,880 Well, OK, that's, you know, you're on with Jimmy Kimmel. 1417 01:26:31,040 --> 01:26:32,920 Is this the framework in which you want to have this 1418 01:26:32,920 --> 01:26:36,000 conversation Late night comics And he's smirking and you're 1419 01:26:36,000 --> 01:26:37,920 smirking. So what's the smirking? 1420 01:26:37,920 --> 01:26:40,520 Is it is it to say that you're that you're that you're 1421 01:26:40,520 --> 01:26:43,560 furthering the cover up? Or are you saying in other 1422 01:26:43,560 --> 01:26:47,040 words, what does what did Barack Obama was was he briefed the 1423 01:26:47,040 --> 01:26:48,920 idea that there's going to be a briefing. 1424 01:26:50,320 --> 01:26:54,360 Jacques Valet has come out with the idea that this this subject, 1425 01:26:54,360 --> 01:27:00,680 for whatever reason, is so highly classified that the 1426 01:27:00,680 --> 01:27:03,640 president is not even considered to have a need to know. 1427 01:27:04,560 --> 01:27:07,000 That's a pretty. If it, if it was true, I think 1428 01:27:07,000 --> 01:27:10,320 that that would actually probably be true, given the, the 1429 01:27:10,320 --> 01:27:15,200 way that our top secret and the contractors and that whole 1430 01:27:15,960 --> 01:27:18,720 structure works. I I actually believe that if it 1431 01:27:18,720 --> 01:27:21,040 were true, that that would be probably true. 1432 01:27:21,720 --> 01:27:23,680 Yeah, I do it it, it has a ring of truth through it. 1433 01:27:23,680 --> 01:27:27,440 So, you know, and Valet often says, as I say, he says I may be 1434 01:27:27,440 --> 01:27:29,800 the only one or the the longest researcher. 1435 01:27:29,800 --> 01:27:32,440 I do not know what a UFO is. I say that too. 1436 01:27:32,440 --> 01:27:34,120 I often say, well, I'm second to Valet. 1437 01:27:34,360 --> 01:27:37,640 He's been at it longer than me. But I don't know what a UFO is 1438 01:27:37,800 --> 01:27:41,960 except that it is a very powerful, it's a it's a powerful 1439 01:27:41,960 --> 01:27:44,240 force. It involves light. 1440 01:27:44,680 --> 01:27:50,520 It involves effects on witnesses that create experiences that 1441 01:27:50,520 --> 01:27:54,440 that, that result in experience. You know, partly we have to ask 1442 01:27:54,440 --> 01:27:59,680 ourselves, are these, is this a real phenomenon that does impact 1443 01:27:59,680 --> 01:28:04,920 our consciousness by creating scenarios that are believable 1444 01:28:05,200 --> 01:28:08,800 about abductions? See, I, I'm often asked by I 1445 01:28:08,800 --> 01:28:11,960 was, I was asked, I was on the Larry King live, the late Larry 1446 01:28:11,960 --> 01:28:14,720 King. And he asked me, do you think 1447 01:28:14,720 --> 01:28:18,200 the abductions are real? You know, that kind of gravelly 1448 01:28:18,200 --> 01:28:20,240 New York voice? Is it real? 1449 01:28:20,240 --> 01:28:22,240 I said, well, it depends on what we mean by really. 1450 01:28:22,240 --> 01:28:24,440 No, no, no, I'm not going to let you off the hook. 1451 01:28:25,320 --> 01:28:27,400 Is it real? Are people being abducted? 1452 01:28:27,680 --> 01:28:31,120 So what I thought of on the spot, I said, Larry, here's how 1453 01:28:31,120 --> 01:28:34,560 I'd put it. If you or I had the experience 1454 01:28:34,560 --> 01:28:39,120 that is called a UFO abduction, we would believe it really 1455 01:28:39,120 --> 01:28:42,000 happened. It is a real experience. 1456 01:28:42,320 --> 01:28:47,120 He goes, oh, OK, OK. So I mean, he was actually 1457 01:28:47,120 --> 01:28:49,000 willing to. He stopped. 1458 01:28:49,040 --> 01:28:52,520 So I think the abductees are reporting real experiences. 1459 01:28:52,520 --> 01:28:56,360 But like Plato's cave, the famous, you know, the famous 1460 01:28:56,480 --> 01:29:00,720 paradigm of people sitting in a cave and they're looking forward 1461 01:29:01,000 --> 01:29:04,160 and they see movement against the walls. 1462 01:29:04,280 --> 01:29:06,600 What they don't know is that there's a fire behind them. 1463 01:29:06,880 --> 01:29:09,960 And those are shadows that are being cast. 1464 01:29:10,080 --> 01:29:13,640 So the we believe the shadows are the primary reality. 1465 01:29:13,720 --> 01:29:16,520 One of the prisoners gets loose and sees, oh, wait a minute, 1466 01:29:17,200 --> 01:29:20,640 those are just shadows. The primary phenomenon is behind 1467 01:29:20,640 --> 01:29:24,400 us. So if the experience of 1468 01:29:24,400 --> 01:29:29,200 abduction is real, what is the what is at the heart, what is 1469 01:29:29,200 --> 01:29:31,280 creating? Are they at this at the level 1470 01:29:31,280 --> 01:29:34,880 that many abduction researchers say they are, political 1471 01:29:34,880 --> 01:29:37,320 experiences? They're happening just as they 1472 01:29:37,320 --> 01:29:39,560 say. There's so much about them 1473 01:29:39,840 --> 01:29:44,640 involving the jump cuts and the and the loss of time, the 1474 01:29:44,640 --> 01:29:49,240 missing time, that consciousness is a very important part of 1475 01:29:49,240 --> 01:29:50,880 this. And when there's a lot of 1476 01:29:50,880 --> 01:29:55,480 missing time in an experience, it suggests there's an 1477 01:29:55,480 --> 01:29:59,560 alteration of consciousness that also suggests is something real 1478 01:29:59,560 --> 01:30:02,760 is going on. But don't take it at face value. 1479 01:30:03,600 --> 01:30:06,680 That is a good rule of thumb. Something's going on here. 1480 01:30:06,680 --> 01:30:11,560 But don't take it at face value or question taking it at face 1481 01:30:11,560 --> 01:30:13,680 value. Assume that there may be more 1482 01:30:13,680 --> 01:30:17,480 going on that is going to ask a deeper set of questions than 1483 01:30:17,480 --> 01:30:20,200 both sides really want. The debunkers want this to be 1484 01:30:20,200 --> 01:30:23,680 easily dismissed. The believers in the ET 1485 01:30:23,680 --> 01:30:26,760 hypothesis wanted to be deeply believed. 1486 01:30:27,280 --> 01:30:29,880 And there's a lot of us in the middle who say something's going 1487 01:30:29,880 --> 01:30:32,160 on here. Like Jung said, something's 1488 01:30:32,160 --> 01:30:36,120 going on, something is happening, something is seen. 1489 01:30:36,560 --> 01:30:42,680 The question is what? Holding that what in greater 1490 01:30:43,160 --> 01:30:46,640 with a greater degree of transparency, openness, 1491 01:30:46,640 --> 01:30:49,800 playfulness, being entered, being willing not to have to 1492 01:30:49,800 --> 01:30:54,920 reach final conclusions at all times about everything. 1493 01:30:55,120 --> 01:30:59,040 This phenomenon can really drive the dogmatic mind crazy. 1494 01:30:59,720 --> 01:31:02,680 And maybe because I don't come at it from that way, people say, 1495 01:31:02,680 --> 01:31:04,960 you know, you don't seem to have been driven crazy by this. 1496 01:31:04,960 --> 01:31:08,160 So many researchers who followed this a long time that doesn't 1497 01:31:08,200 --> 01:31:10,840 that they don't end up well. And I've actually noticed that 1498 01:31:10,840 --> 01:31:12,920 too. I think the reason that many 1499 01:31:12,920 --> 01:31:17,200 researchers end up badly with this phenomenon is because they 1500 01:31:17,200 --> 01:31:20,680 approach it with an expectation of imminent rational 1501 01:31:21,080 --> 01:31:24,560 interpretation. It's all going to be made clear 1502 01:31:24,560 --> 01:31:28,880 anytime soon, John Keel KEEL, one of the early researchers of 1503 01:31:28,880 --> 01:31:33,280 the 1960s, said. This phenomenon will wreak havoc 1504 01:31:33,600 --> 01:31:36,560 on your mind. If you want to follow it, you 1505 01:31:36,560 --> 01:31:41,560 need to you, you need to have a framework that can hold 1506 01:31:41,800 --> 01:31:46,560 ambiguities and allow for ambiguities to exist. 1507 01:31:46,720 --> 01:31:49,880 Because if you don't, if you need everything to be tied down, 1508 01:31:49,880 --> 01:31:52,840 this phenomenon will run roughshod over you. 1509 01:31:53,200 --> 01:31:55,760 And I think that's true. I don't say that in a spooky 1510 01:31:55,760 --> 01:31:58,600 sense. Oh, it will run roughshod. 1511 01:31:58,720 --> 01:32:00,160 Stay away. No, I don't. 1512 01:32:00,200 --> 01:32:02,320 I don't. I don't go there. 1513 01:32:02,520 --> 01:32:04,840 Operation Trojan Horse. Check it out. 1514 01:32:04,880 --> 01:32:07,000 People Trojan Horse. And actually, people most 1515 01:32:07,000 --> 01:32:09,360 probably know him from Mothman Prophecy because they made a 1516 01:32:09,360 --> 01:32:12,520 movie about it back in the day. And he, he, he, you know, he 1517 01:32:12,520 --> 01:32:16,800 would be on the road. He would be on the road studying 1518 01:32:16,800 --> 01:32:19,200 this phenomena. Does he check into a motel? 1519 01:32:20,080 --> 01:32:23,840 And he'd get phone calls at the motel from people who, who, who 1520 01:32:24,240 --> 01:32:26,680 that he, who would not have known he was there? 1521 01:32:26,880 --> 01:32:29,920 He found himself in a paranormal vortex. 1522 01:32:29,960 --> 01:32:34,920 In other words, he said, this is not a level 1 ET hypothesis. 1523 01:32:35,120 --> 01:32:38,200 This isn't just greater craft from another part of the 1524 01:32:38,200 --> 01:32:41,040 universe landing. This is something that's landing 1525 01:32:41,040 --> 01:32:45,640 in our psyches, and I am questioning my own ability to 1526 01:32:45,640 --> 01:32:49,440 stay sane. That was a moment of lucid 1527 01:32:49,440 --> 01:32:53,480 awareness when a researcher says I questioned my own ability to 1528 01:32:53,480 --> 01:32:57,840 stay sane if I need to believe every hypothesis. 1529 01:32:58,000 --> 01:33:01,720 So he became a kind of radical agnostic about the 1530 01:33:01,720 --> 01:33:06,200 interpretations and said basically cautionary, go toward 1531 01:33:06,200 --> 01:33:10,200 this phenomenon carefully. Go, go, go at it. 1532 01:33:10,200 --> 01:33:11,640 Careful. Now I would say the same thing. 1533 01:33:11,680 --> 01:33:13,120 I again, I don't want to sound spooky. 1534 01:33:13,120 --> 01:33:16,960 I don't want to sound warning. I try to make it an adventure in 1535 01:33:16,960 --> 01:33:21,120 thinking, you know, an adventure in cognition and asking. 1536 01:33:22,200 --> 01:33:25,640 Aristotle famously said philosophy begins in wonder. 1537 01:33:26,120 --> 01:33:29,000 I continue to wonder. I'm filled with wonder about all 1538 01:33:29,000 --> 01:33:31,360 of this. And so it keeps me in a place of 1539 01:33:31,640 --> 01:33:34,560 essentially a positive, I think positive disposition. 1540 01:33:35,720 --> 01:33:38,680 Yeah, no. And I I approach it in a very 1541 01:33:38,680 --> 01:33:40,400 similar way. That's why I wanted to have you 1542 01:33:40,440 --> 01:33:42,280 on. And actually after talking with 1543 01:33:42,280 --> 01:33:46,120 you now, I think we're, you know, and there's not too many 1544 01:33:46,120 --> 01:33:49,640 people that have these takes in the community. 1545 01:33:49,640 --> 01:33:52,520 You know, you mentioned Kreipl and you know, there's a few 1546 01:33:52,520 --> 01:33:57,160 others, but Valet. But like, I don't know, I mean, 1547 01:33:57,160 --> 01:33:58,640 when I was making that documentary, I had the 1548 01:33:58,640 --> 01:34:01,960 hypothesis that it's, you have to, you know, almost like use a 1549 01:34:01,960 --> 01:34:05,280 Cartesian doubt. And at very least what, what 1550 01:34:05,280 --> 01:34:08,840 could be happening on the biological level is whether it's 1551 01:34:09,360 --> 01:34:13,440 the modern myth of the UFO or the ancient Greek myths and the 1552 01:34:13,440 --> 01:34:15,960 Titans and, you know, Zeus and whatever. 1553 01:34:16,400 --> 01:34:20,240 Maybe what we're doing is we're creating these things that, you 1554 01:34:20,240 --> 01:34:23,800 know, like I said, it's almost like dangling a carrot to 1555 01:34:23,800 --> 01:34:28,160 further us and like, it's some part of our psyche that we don't 1556 01:34:28,160 --> 01:34:31,880 understand. That's our mind's using us to 1557 01:34:31,880 --> 01:34:34,000 evolve without us knowing, if that makes sense. 1558 01:34:34,000 --> 01:34:36,080 So we create. This part of our mind that we 1559 01:34:36,080 --> 01:34:37,840 don't even know exists is backing in. 1560 01:34:37,840 --> 01:34:41,720 As for Jeff, Krypel often says, I think the phenomenon is US. 1561 01:34:42,480 --> 01:34:45,960 I have often urged him to unpack that a little better because to 1562 01:34:45,960 --> 01:34:48,560 say that it's just us kind of implies, oh, maybe it's just 1563 01:34:48,560 --> 01:34:52,680 something in the social psychology that is, but he's 1564 01:34:52,680 --> 01:34:54,720 actually saying it's, it's something much bigger. 1565 01:34:54,720 --> 01:34:59,000 When he says the UFO is about us, he means bigger part of 1566 01:34:59,000 --> 01:35:02,800 being that we've stopped asking questions about. 1567 01:35:02,920 --> 01:35:05,000 Therefore we think could only be other. 1568 01:35:05,560 --> 01:35:07,440 So that's a that's a framework. Wow. 1569 01:35:07,440 --> 01:35:13,640 So this is a part of us that is bigger than we know about which 1570 01:35:13,640 --> 01:35:18,040 you know, points. Ultimately, I'll leave with 111 1571 01:35:18,040 --> 01:35:21,160 image when Whitley Strieber and his wife, Ann Strieber, the late 1572 01:35:21,160 --> 01:35:23,520 Ann Strieber were after they wrote, he wrote the book 1573 01:35:23,520 --> 01:35:27,560 Communion. They in that book, he said, if 1574 01:35:27,560 --> 01:35:29,920 you've had your own experiences, send us a letter. 1575 01:35:30,560 --> 01:35:33,160 Get in touch. So he got they got thousands. 1576 01:35:34,080 --> 01:35:36,760 Whitley and Ann Strieber, after he wrote Communion, got 1577 01:35:36,760 --> 01:35:39,440 thousands of letters from people all around the world. 1578 01:35:40,120 --> 01:35:44,320 And she came out of her Home Office one day in their home and 1579 01:35:44,320 --> 01:35:47,920 said Whitley and she'd been studying these letters, reading 1580 01:35:47,920 --> 01:35:53,480 them with a group of volunteers. She said, Whitley, this is about 1581 01:35:53,720 --> 01:35:57,720 this. This phenomenon is fundamentally 1582 01:35:57,720 --> 01:36:03,280 about what we call death. And she used that phrase about 1583 01:36:03,280 --> 01:36:07,680 what we call death, didn't say it's about death. 1584 01:36:08,000 --> 01:36:11,720 It's about the realm that we call death and that we don't 1585 01:36:11,720 --> 01:36:15,600 know what that. So there is there's a big 1586 01:36:15,600 --> 01:36:19,080 overlap with postmortem and the UFO phenomenon. 1587 01:36:19,400 --> 01:36:24,880 I also have deduced that most people that are interested in 1588 01:36:24,880 --> 01:36:27,720 this topic aren't just interested in the flying saucer 1589 01:36:27,720 --> 01:36:30,040 or aliens or whatever. They're interested to know what 1590 01:36:30,040 --> 01:36:32,680 happens when we die. We all want to know what happens 1591 01:36:32,680 --> 01:36:37,520 when we die. We all die, and we all want to 1592 01:36:37,520 --> 01:36:39,200 understand that on a deeper level. 1593 01:36:39,200 --> 01:36:43,120 So I think that from my own analysis, from interviewing all 1594 01:36:43,120 --> 01:36:46,600 these people and doing over 300 episodes of this podcast, making 1595 01:36:46,600 --> 01:36:50,360 a documentary, talking with all sorts of people, people are 1596 01:36:50,360 --> 01:36:53,280 interested in death. That's what this it's all, it's 1597 01:36:53,280 --> 01:36:58,880 all a death cult, if you will, not in this that sense, but just 1598 01:36:58,880 --> 01:37:01,680 in the sense that we all want to know what happens when we die. 1599 01:37:01,960 --> 01:37:04,920 And I think that this people believe that this is the best 1600 01:37:04,920 --> 01:37:07,560 route to understand that as opposed, you know. 1601 01:37:07,560 --> 01:37:11,040 If there's a disclosure coming about the nature of reality, I 1602 01:37:11,040 --> 01:37:15,440 think it's probably as as likely to happen less through the UFO 1603 01:37:15,440 --> 01:37:17,600 phenomenon as we normally understand it. 1604 01:37:18,000 --> 01:37:22,680 The field that I'm finding a lot of whispers about right now, 1605 01:37:22,880 --> 01:37:25,760 supposedly both the New York Times and Washington Post, for 1606 01:37:25,760 --> 01:37:29,680 example, are on the verge of publishing a big articles. 1607 01:37:29,680 --> 01:37:32,680 I don't know if it's entirely true, but you follow the smoke, 1608 01:37:32,680 --> 01:37:36,320 there's generally fire. And what they are covering is 1609 01:37:36,320 --> 01:37:40,080 the near death experience because the evidence for thanks 1610 01:37:40,080 --> 01:37:44,560 to resuscitation techniques becoming so advanced that it is 1611 01:37:44,560 --> 01:37:49,840 actually one of the most rich, robust data that the number of 1612 01:37:50,000 --> 01:37:53,160 the of of the growing preponderance, the growing 1613 01:37:53,160 --> 01:37:57,720 number of credible near death experiences. 1614 01:37:58,040 --> 01:38:02,280 People who leave their body sense the other world have 1615 01:38:02,280 --> 01:38:06,320 perceptions that are not consistent with being with the 1616 01:38:06,320 --> 01:38:11,920 material frame and coming back with reports of another world 1617 01:38:11,920 --> 01:38:16,040 and afterlife. That appears to be something 1618 01:38:16,040 --> 01:38:17,360 that that. In other words, it may be the 1619 01:38:17,360 --> 01:38:21,800 near death experience may be the case that breaks the paradigm. 1620 01:38:22,200 --> 01:38:26,360 I almost died twice in the last three years, literally bled out, 1621 01:38:26,360 --> 01:38:30,360 was unconscious. And I wanted to ask you this 1622 01:38:30,360 --> 01:38:32,400 too, which people can go back and listen. 1623 01:38:32,400 --> 01:38:36,040 I've done episodes on my experiences, but the in your 1624 01:38:36,040 --> 01:38:37,920 book you talk about your near death experience. 1625 01:38:37,920 --> 01:38:39,520 Can we? I want to do this Mike's mind 1626 01:38:39,520 --> 01:38:42,040 melters, which is just five questions, but can you please 1627 01:38:42,480 --> 01:38:46,640 just give us a little bit of a, a brief synapsis of your near 1628 01:38:46,640 --> 01:38:49,200 death experience that you talk about in UFO Paradox? 1629 01:38:49,640 --> 01:38:51,720 Yeah, I will. I will give it and I will keep 1630 01:38:51,720 --> 01:38:54,120 it brief and I'll and I'll hold myself to that. 1631 01:38:54,720 --> 01:38:57,920 It's an experience I decided not to talk about, partly because 1632 01:38:58,560 --> 01:39:01,800 I'm old enough that I had the experience before the near death 1633 01:39:01,800 --> 01:39:05,160 experience was well known. I had not read Raymond Moody's 1634 01:39:05,160 --> 01:39:08,000 book Life Afterlife. I did not know about the stages, 1635 01:39:08,000 --> 01:39:13,120 the tunnel, the encounters with with deceased relatives and 1636 01:39:13,120 --> 01:39:16,240 friends, and I had a near drowning experience. 1637 01:39:16,560 --> 01:39:19,040 I felt myself. I thought I was rising above the 1638 01:39:19,720 --> 01:39:23,440 I was coming out of the water and finally I was struggling for 1639 01:39:23,440 --> 01:39:28,600 so long body surfing off the coast of Hawaii that I thought I 1640 01:39:28,600 --> 01:39:30,560 said to myself, I'm going to die. 1641 01:39:31,320 --> 01:39:34,680 I had a very lucid sense that I was not going to survive this. 1642 01:39:35,000 --> 01:39:41,160 And I suddenly realized I was rising above the scene itself. 1643 01:39:41,560 --> 01:39:43,640 I was out of I had an out of body experience. 1644 01:39:43,640 --> 01:39:47,040 I knew nothing. I was 20 something at the time 1645 01:39:47,040 --> 01:39:49,760 knew nothing about out of body experiences. 1646 01:39:50,200 --> 01:39:54,960 I saw the body of Keith floating in the water, and I overheard my 1647 01:39:54,960 --> 01:39:58,600 friends on the coast who had told me, my one friend named 1648 01:39:58,600 --> 01:40:01,200 Mary said to another friend of ours. 1649 01:40:01,400 --> 01:40:04,680 I told Keith, referring to Keith, who was struggling in the 1650 01:40:04,680 --> 01:40:07,680 water. I observed from this sense of 1651 01:40:07,680 --> 01:40:10,520 awareness, this vast sense of awareness. 1652 01:40:10,680 --> 01:40:13,480 I heard her say. I told Keith not to go out. 1653 01:40:13,720 --> 01:40:17,760 I told him it was too dangerous. I told him to be careful. 1654 01:40:18,000 --> 01:40:22,240 So I said to Mary, I, my continuing sense of awareness, 1655 01:40:22,240 --> 01:40:27,320 who was no longer that body or identified with that body. 1656 01:40:27,560 --> 01:40:31,040 I said, Mary, it's OK. I'm actually fine. 1657 01:40:31,480 --> 01:40:34,120 It's all OK. This is OK. 1658 01:40:34,120 --> 01:40:37,320 Meaning this entire thing, I knew that I had died. 1659 01:40:38,080 --> 01:40:40,920 I was, I was dying or knew that I had died. 1660 01:40:41,200 --> 01:40:45,960 And I said to myself, oh, dead isn't dead. 1661 01:40:47,160 --> 01:40:51,080 That phrase came to me. Long story short, I don't, I did 1662 01:40:51,080 --> 01:40:55,720 not get one of those statements from the larger intelligence. 1663 01:40:55,840 --> 01:40:59,080 It's not your time. But instead I went back to my 1664 01:40:59,080 --> 01:41:01,560 body. I got sent back, if you will, 1665 01:41:01,880 --> 01:41:07,480 and I came onto the shore and I told my and my friends, you 1666 01:41:07,480 --> 01:41:11,320 know, rescued me and helped me get they knew what I had gone 1667 01:41:11,320 --> 01:41:13,680 through. And I, one of my friends that 1668 01:41:13,680 --> 01:41:17,320 day said to me right after it happened, man, we thought you 1669 01:41:17,320 --> 01:41:20,720 had lost it out there. We thought you had given it up. 1670 01:41:21,600 --> 01:41:23,880 And I said, oh, God, he understands. 1671 01:41:24,000 --> 01:41:27,440 I said I did, I did. I, I, I died. 1672 01:41:28,200 --> 01:41:32,040 But I came back understand. They'd never heard of the near 1673 01:41:32,040 --> 01:41:34,520 death experience either. It did not exist. 1674 01:41:34,560 --> 01:41:37,840 Oprah had not made it, had not put it on the map of popular 1675 01:41:37,840 --> 01:41:39,040 culture. I didn't know either. 1676 01:41:39,320 --> 01:41:44,400 So when they, when I saw the look in their eyes when I said I 1677 01:41:44,400 --> 01:41:47,560 had died, when I came back, I knew they were looking at me 1678 01:41:47,560 --> 01:41:51,720 like I had gone out of my mind and that I would now be faced 1679 01:41:51,720 --> 01:41:56,160 with I'd had a trauma. I need to have treatment and 1680 01:41:56,160 --> 01:41:58,640 I'll come back and realize I had just had a complex 1681 01:41:58,640 --> 01:42:02,720 hallucination. I got it and I also said it's 1682 01:42:02,720 --> 01:42:04,800 not true what their interpretation. 1683 01:42:04,800 --> 01:42:06,360 I know that I had a real experience. 1684 01:42:06,440 --> 01:42:09,960 So turned out I, I started to study and I found out about 1685 01:42:09,960 --> 01:42:12,160 Raymond Moody's book. I studied the near death 1686 01:42:12,160 --> 01:42:14,760 experience. I met Doctor Kenneth Ring, one 1687 01:42:14,760 --> 01:42:18,880 of the other key researchers. So I had, I didn't have a UFO 1688 01:42:18,880 --> 01:42:20,360 experience. I had a near death experience 1689 01:42:20,360 --> 01:42:24,000 and that had a profound as I began to realize, oh, it fits a 1690 01:42:24,000 --> 01:42:25,840 pattern. There are stages. 1691 01:42:26,520 --> 01:42:28,440 By the way, let me let me keep one key thing. 1692 01:42:29,000 --> 01:42:33,720 When I saw relatives and friends passing before me, I did see 1693 01:42:33,880 --> 01:42:37,960 deceased relatives, one of whom I did not know had died. 1694 01:42:38,400 --> 01:42:43,440 I had a great Uncle Sam, who I believe was alive. 1695 01:42:44,120 --> 01:42:48,240 I saw him among the dead. So after my experience was over, 1696 01:42:48,480 --> 01:42:50,800 I survived. It came back to my body and was 1697 01:42:50,800 --> 01:42:53,160 Keith again. Keith in this form. 1698 01:42:54,040 --> 01:42:56,360 I called my mom. I didn't tell her about the 1699 01:42:56,360 --> 01:42:58,240 experience because I'd already had enough feedback. 1700 01:42:58,480 --> 01:43:03,480 This doesn't go well when you talk about it, which is also 1701 01:43:03,480 --> 01:43:06,800 common with the UFO experience. It doesn't go well when you say 1702 01:43:06,800 --> 01:43:10,720 you've had a UFO experience. Trust me, doesn't mean don't, 1703 01:43:11,040 --> 01:43:12,720 but it doesn't mean you will. You'll, you will. 1704 01:43:12,880 --> 01:43:14,920 You'll face the grilling of your lifetime. 1705 01:43:15,600 --> 01:43:18,280 I asked my mom. I said, have you seen Uncle Sam 1706 01:43:18,280 --> 01:43:21,400 lately? She said, oh, did you not know 1707 01:43:21,840 --> 01:43:27,360 he passed away? When he passed away in June, it 1708 01:43:27,360 --> 01:43:29,880 was six months prior to my near death experience. 1709 01:43:30,440 --> 01:43:33,920 I did not know that. So that is a level of accuracy. 1710 01:43:34,200 --> 01:43:36,440 It's one thing to say you saw your great, you know your 1711 01:43:36,440 --> 01:43:38,800 grandfather, but you knew your grandfather was dead. 1712 01:43:39,040 --> 01:43:42,840 Maybe it was a hallucination, but you see an uncle that you 1713 01:43:42,840 --> 01:43:44,600 have a reason to believe is still alive. 1714 01:43:44,600 --> 01:43:47,360 That's good proof too. You know, and I, I don't know if 1715 01:43:47,360 --> 01:43:49,840 you've ever read Evan Alexander's book Proof of 1716 01:43:49,840 --> 01:43:54,160 Heaven, but he had a similar story about I think a sister 1717 01:43:54,160 --> 01:43:56,480 that passed away or something along or no. 1718 01:43:56,760 --> 01:43:59,520 But anyways, there's these stories of these people that 1719 01:43:59,520 --> 01:44:04,280 like didn't know they had a relative and that relative died 1720 01:44:04,280 --> 01:44:06,920 and they met that relative in that space or they had a sister. 1721 01:44:06,920 --> 01:44:09,880 Like that's actually pretty interesting. 1722 01:44:09,880 --> 01:44:14,040 And I think that if anything like what's go if, let's just 1723 01:44:14,040 --> 01:44:17,120 say from a skeptical mind, like what could be happening in that 1724 01:44:17,520 --> 01:44:21,920 experience that would cause that I couldn't think of anything. 1725 01:44:21,920 --> 01:44:24,480 And I've had my own brushes with death as well. 1726 01:44:24,480 --> 01:44:32,400 So yeah, I mean, so did did when you came out of it, did you have 1727 01:44:33,400 --> 01:44:37,400 any sort of like remorse that you came back? 1728 01:44:37,400 --> 01:44:41,680 I know some people are like they wanted to stay in that realm or, 1729 01:44:42,080 --> 01:44:44,840 you know, that's actually more common, I think, with people 1730 01:44:44,840 --> 01:44:46,560 that have their heart stop. I don't know if your heart 1731 01:44:46,560 --> 01:44:48,960 stopped, but. I don't know exactly what 1732 01:44:48,960 --> 01:44:50,120 happened. I don't know what my physical 1733 01:44:50,120 --> 01:44:54,880 status was, but I do know I did not have that because I did not 1734 01:44:54,880 --> 01:44:58,400 have many people long to wish they could go back because they 1735 01:44:58,400 --> 01:45:01,640 come back so badly injured from something automobile accident. 1736 01:45:02,120 --> 01:45:05,600 They're crippled, they have injuries, they find life. 1737 01:45:05,600 --> 01:45:07,880 Hell, I didn't have that experience. 1738 01:45:08,160 --> 01:45:13,960 I will say I did have the one of the other confirming aspects of 1739 01:45:13,960 --> 01:45:18,240 this was, as I say, I heard my friend Mary on the shore way 1740 01:45:18,240 --> 01:45:21,600 beyond my hearing ability. It was not my body in the water 1741 01:45:21,600 --> 01:45:25,160 that was hearing her say this. She said I told him that it was 1742 01:45:25,160 --> 01:45:27,000 unsafe. I told him to be careful and I 1743 01:45:27,000 --> 01:45:30,120 told him not to go out there. So after I survived the next 1744 01:45:30,120 --> 01:45:34,880 morning, after having a night of rest and food and watching 1745 01:45:34,880 --> 01:45:39,400 movies and keeping to myself the powerful experience that I'd 1746 01:45:39,400 --> 01:45:42,400 been through, I said to my friend Mary, can we go for a 1747 01:45:42,400 --> 01:45:43,480 walk? I want to talk with you. 1748 01:45:43,800 --> 01:45:46,640 She goes, sure. So we went for a walk and I said 1749 01:45:47,040 --> 01:45:48,680 I heard what you said on the beach. 1750 01:45:49,720 --> 01:45:51,040 She said, what are you talking about? 1751 01:45:51,280 --> 01:45:54,600 I said yesterday you stood there with Moore, another friend of 1752 01:45:54,600 --> 01:45:57,080 ours who was on this trip. We were all in our 20s. 1753 01:45:57,080 --> 01:45:59,840 We were body surfing and stuff, I said. 1754 01:45:59,840 --> 01:46:02,080 I heard you say why did he go out there? 1755 01:46:02,320 --> 01:46:03,960 I told Keith not to go out there. 1756 01:46:03,960 --> 01:46:07,760 I told him it was too dangerous. I watched the blood drained from 1757 01:46:07,760 --> 01:46:11,600 her face as I told her that because we were both in our 20s, 1758 01:46:11,720 --> 01:46:14,400 we were not in touch with philosophy of mind. 1759 01:46:14,640 --> 01:46:17,320 We didn't know about the near death experience. 1760 01:46:17,480 --> 01:46:19,720 We didn't know about. We didn't ask questions about 1761 01:46:19,720 --> 01:46:24,240 the nature of consciousness. But we both knew that if I had 1762 01:46:24,640 --> 01:46:29,880 overheard her, then the game conditions that we call reality 1763 01:46:29,880 --> 01:46:33,560 are different. I'd had a paranormal cognition. 1764 01:46:33,960 --> 01:46:38,760 She knew it and we she and therefore she said so you did. 1765 01:46:39,040 --> 01:46:42,600 You did have this experience. Maybe you did die. 1766 01:46:43,760 --> 01:46:45,520 She didn't know about the near death experience either. 1767 01:46:45,520 --> 01:46:48,560 So there was a coming back. You know, part of what this is a 1768 01:46:48,560 --> 01:46:51,960 larger conversation, but whether it's UFOs, near death 1769 01:46:51,960 --> 01:46:55,480 experiences, paranormal experiences in general, one of 1770 01:46:55,480 --> 01:47:00,520 the things that happens when one has these is 1 is lucky. 1771 01:47:01,040 --> 01:47:04,280 You get to make you begin to ask new questions. 1772 01:47:04,440 --> 01:47:08,600 I began to read Alan Watts, for example, the philosopher who's 1773 01:47:08,600 --> 01:47:11,480 written such popular books. I love Alan Watts. 1774 01:47:12,360 --> 01:47:16,400 Yeah, so he's one of the best WATTS, for those who don't know. 1775 01:47:18,080 --> 01:47:20,000 I began to ask spiritual questions. 1776 01:47:20,160 --> 01:47:22,320 I began to read esoteric literature. 1777 01:47:22,480 --> 01:47:26,880 I began to practice meditation. So I got on a kind of path that 1778 01:47:26,880 --> 01:47:29,920 I would not have gotten on. And I think this is an untold 1779 01:47:29,920 --> 01:47:32,920 story of our time, that people are having anomalous 1780 01:47:32,920 --> 01:47:37,480 experiences, experiences of realities beyond our framework, 1781 01:47:37,680 --> 01:47:40,480 and they evoke deep metaphysical questions. 1782 01:47:40,480 --> 01:47:44,960 So that larger question is these experiences provoke larger 1783 01:47:44,960 --> 01:47:47,000 inquiries into the nature of reality. 1784 01:47:47,160 --> 01:47:49,960 And that to me is one of the added values. 1785 01:47:50,280 --> 01:47:54,120 I mean I'm not the same person as I was before my near death 1786 01:47:54,120 --> 01:47:57,960 experience or being with my mother in a Hospice and 1787 01:47:57,960 --> 01:48:04,880 watching, I'm convinced watching her relatives come and come to 1788 01:48:04,880 --> 01:48:07,840 get her. I saw in this Hospice room. 1789 01:48:08,040 --> 01:48:11,040 Well as I lay there with my mother at this is after my own 1790 01:48:11,040 --> 01:48:17,000 near death experience, I saw beings, filmy diaphanous, 1791 01:48:17,000 --> 01:48:20,920 vaporous beings approaching my mother and I saw her face. 1792 01:48:21,160 --> 01:48:24,720 I saw her smile. I did not know about near near 1793 01:48:24,720 --> 01:48:29,360 deathbed visitations and after I had the experience, I started 1794 01:48:29,360 --> 01:48:33,320 reading about those two. I said it's a common thing that 1795 01:48:33,320 --> 01:48:37,680 the that the dead already dead come and take you to where they 1796 01:48:37,680 --> 01:48:39,440 are. Where is that? 1797 01:48:40,040 --> 01:48:43,400 Is it right here, but in a larger set of dimensions? 1798 01:48:43,400 --> 01:48:45,920 I'm inclined to think it is. I think the dead are actually 1799 01:48:45,920 --> 01:48:50,880 very close to us, but they're separated and people have 1800 01:48:50,880 --> 01:48:53,080 experiences of their mother or father or other. 1801 01:48:53,280 --> 01:48:56,800 It's because they it's a frequency issue and you, you and 1802 01:48:56,880 --> 01:49:00,480 you sometimes you just find yourself on the same frequency 1803 01:49:00,480 --> 01:49:04,920 and your mother comes and says I'm fine or dad says I'm great. 1804 01:49:05,040 --> 01:49:08,680 Keep up doing what you're doing. Yeah, it's. 1805 01:49:08,680 --> 01:49:09,840 Interesting. Yeah. 1806 01:49:09,840 --> 01:49:13,040 And especially, you know what I know too, about the people 1807 01:49:13,040 --> 01:49:17,000 reaching out towards their loved ones at the end and saying final 1808 01:49:17,000 --> 01:49:19,680 things like, oh, I'm surrounded by, you know, this person or 1809 01:49:19,680 --> 01:49:23,520 that person. So yeah, it's super interesting. 1810 01:49:23,520 --> 01:49:26,520 And actually this is something that we've tossed around my 1811 01:49:26,920 --> 01:49:29,360 cousin and I'm making for our next documentary, something on 1812 01:49:29,360 --> 01:49:31,240 the near death experience since I've had one. 1813 01:49:31,240 --> 01:49:34,440 My mother had a traditional near death experience and it's 1814 01:49:34,880 --> 01:49:37,160 definitely something we've talked a lot about on the show. 1815 01:49:37,160 --> 01:49:41,600 But I want to pivot. Let's let's start to wrap it up 1816 01:49:41,600 --> 01:49:44,240 here. I want to do Mike's Mind Melters 1817 01:49:44,240 --> 01:49:48,080 and then wrap it up after that if if you're OK with that. 1818 01:49:48,640 --> 01:49:51,560 Sure, let's give it a shot. Are you ready to melt your mind, 1819 01:49:51,560 --> 01:49:53,240 Keith? All right. 1820 01:50:11,170 --> 01:50:15,130 All right, I'm going to ask you 5 philosophical questions. 1821 01:50:15,610 --> 01:50:18,890 Just answer them the best that you can and there's no right or 1822 01:50:18,890 --> 01:50:24,360 wrong answer #1 what is something you believe in that 1823 01:50:24,360 --> 01:50:28,480 you know is probably wrong or illogical, but you are just not 1824 01:50:28,480 --> 01:50:32,000 being honest with yourself? Whoa. 1825 01:50:32,000 --> 01:50:37,760 What is something that I believe in that is probably not real? 1826 01:50:37,920 --> 01:50:40,440 Is that what you said? Yeah, like wrong or illogical, 1827 01:50:40,440 --> 01:50:43,120 like somebody that believes in God, but deep down they might 1828 01:50:43,120 --> 01:50:45,440 think that that there's some, there's nothing there, something 1829 01:50:45,440 --> 01:50:48,680 along those lines. Boy, that's a good one. 1830 01:50:48,680 --> 01:50:50,440 I don't have an immediate, I don't have an immediate 1831 01:50:50,440 --> 01:50:53,360 response. I have an error in believing 1832 01:50:53,360 --> 01:50:58,000 people are more open than they really are, and I tend to be 1833 01:50:58,000 --> 01:51:02,480 surprised at the unwillingness of people to question their 1834 01:51:02,480 --> 01:51:06,680 confirmation bias. Not that I'm 100% accomplished 1835 01:51:06,680 --> 01:51:09,240 in that realm. I have my own confirmation 1836 01:51:09,240 --> 01:51:12,400 biases that I don't know about, but that, you know, when you 1837 01:51:12,400 --> 01:51:16,640 have, when you have, what is it? You have cognitive dissonance, 1838 01:51:16,880 --> 01:51:21,200 something that tells you what you're seeing is, is different 1839 01:51:21,200 --> 01:51:23,960 from what what you're seeing is inaccurate. 1840 01:51:24,240 --> 01:51:27,360 How do we respond to that? I generally say, oh, if there's 1841 01:51:27,360 --> 01:51:31,000 new evidence, maybe I should question my confirmation bias. 1842 01:51:31,000 --> 01:51:32,600 Maybe I should question what I believe. 1843 01:51:33,200 --> 01:51:37,760 And I think that I might be more inclined to think people are 1844 01:51:37,760 --> 01:51:41,520 willing to question their deep biases than they really are. 1845 01:51:42,440 --> 01:51:45,080 OK, that's a good answer. I'll accept that. 1846 01:51:46,160 --> 01:51:48,960 Number 2. Do you think there is an 1847 01:51:48,960 --> 01:51:52,400 objective purpose for humanity, and if So, what? 1848 01:51:54,120 --> 01:51:56,400 I don't. I think there is purpose for 1849 01:51:56,400 --> 01:52:01,240 humanity and I don't think it's a single single anything. 1850 01:52:01,720 --> 01:52:04,680 I think meaning is based, is deeply based. 1851 01:52:04,680 --> 01:52:07,080 This is a, this is a universe of meaning. 1852 01:52:07,360 --> 01:52:12,000 It's a meaningful place and we're here to learn and, and 1853 01:52:12,000 --> 01:52:15,960 this is not this the, the physical game, the physical 1854 01:52:15,960 --> 01:52:19,160 world is not the final, the final anything. 1855 01:52:19,160 --> 01:52:21,520 It's, it's a realm that I think the soul, if you will, the 1856 01:52:21,520 --> 01:52:24,400 deepest part of who we are, chooses to come into this realm 1857 01:52:24,680 --> 01:52:28,440 to learn about limitation. You know, you, you, there's the 1858 01:52:28,440 --> 01:52:33,840 sense in which that we, we wonder when you have a mystical 1859 01:52:33,840 --> 01:52:37,800 or aha, a big experience, a peak experience, you sometimes 1860 01:52:37,800 --> 01:52:40,640 realize there are no limits. But in fact, what you're what 1861 01:52:40,640 --> 01:52:42,480 you're having then is a soul experience. 1862 01:52:42,840 --> 01:52:46,520 And I think the soul that that limitless place comes here to 1863 01:52:46,520 --> 01:52:51,720 learn something about life in form that and limits and 1864 01:52:51,720 --> 01:52:54,960 boundaries that are difficult. And that's what suffering is 1865 01:52:54,960 --> 01:52:56,520 about. Coming to terms with those 1866 01:52:57,080 --> 01:52:59,240 boundaries that make no sense to us. 1867 01:52:59,440 --> 01:53:03,480 Why do people suffer? Why, if there is a God, is there 1868 01:53:03,480 --> 01:53:05,640 such cruelty? These are deep. 1869 01:53:06,320 --> 01:53:09,840 These these are deep curriculum questions. 1870 01:53:11,640 --> 01:53:18,200 I like it #3 do you think humans are special or separate from 1871 01:53:18,200 --> 01:53:21,120 nature? If your answer is yes, give me 1872 01:53:21,120 --> 01:53:23,640 your best example or explanation of why. 1873 01:53:25,600 --> 01:53:29,160 Separate There's something we bring to the game that is 1874 01:53:29,160 --> 01:53:32,680 implicit in other animals. Primates, dogs and cats. 1875 01:53:33,200 --> 01:53:36,760 They're aware and we're aware, but we're aware that we're 1876 01:53:36,760 --> 01:53:38,480 aware. We have what's called 1877 01:53:38,480 --> 01:53:40,960 metacognition. We know that we know. 1878 01:53:41,840 --> 01:53:45,720 And it's it's a source of great suffering because you can sit 1879 01:53:45,720 --> 01:53:48,280 and ruminate. Why did I do that when I could 1880 01:53:48,280 --> 01:53:50,360 have done this? I should have known better. 1881 01:53:50,560 --> 01:53:53,080 I did know better. The kind of the Woody Allen 1882 01:53:53,080 --> 01:53:55,960 character that he plays at all of his movies, the constant 1883 01:53:55,960 --> 01:53:58,440 ruminating about what I should have done, could have done, 1884 01:53:58,440 --> 01:54:00,760 didn't do, did Rodney Dangerfield. 1885 01:54:01,480 --> 01:54:05,480 So there's a dilemma of our we are aware that we're aware and 1886 01:54:05,480 --> 01:54:07,840 we can reflect on our experience. 1887 01:54:08,640 --> 01:54:13,040 I think that is that is, I don't see it in dogs and cats, 1888 01:54:13,040 --> 01:54:15,400 although I see dogs and cats as very aware. 1889 01:54:15,400 --> 01:54:18,400 I mean, if you, if you don't see awareness in dogs and cats and 1890 01:54:18,400 --> 01:54:20,080 primates, you're not paying close attention. 1891 01:54:20,080 --> 01:54:23,960 So the, we are different. We we are the next level of of a 1892 01:54:23,960 --> 01:54:28,480 kind of consciousness that includes knowing that we are 1893 01:54:28,480 --> 01:54:30,960 conscious and learning to live into that. 1894 01:54:31,520 --> 01:54:35,160 That's the growing edge. OK, yeah, I like that. 1895 01:54:35,400 --> 01:54:37,000 Yeah. You know, a lot of people give 1896 01:54:37,000 --> 01:54:40,200 answers, but there's a lot of proto versions of things that 1897 01:54:40,240 --> 01:54:43,520 like tool making and like recursion and things like that 1898 01:54:43,520 --> 01:54:45,160 that, you know, you could point to. 1899 01:54:45,160 --> 01:54:47,920 But there's, again, there's a lot of proto versions of things 1900 01:54:47,920 --> 01:54:52,040 that we do that are found in animals and primates and things 1901 01:54:52,040 --> 01:54:56,640 like that. Number four, what do you think 1902 01:54:56,640 --> 01:55:01,680 happens when we die? I think we, I think what I had 1903 01:55:01,680 --> 01:55:04,000 in my near death experience, I think the near death experience 1904 01:55:04,000 --> 01:55:06,000 is, is a paradigm for what we do. 1905 01:55:06,000 --> 01:55:10,840 We separate. We, we, we see the body, we see 1906 01:55:10,840 --> 01:55:12,720 others around us. We don't often know what 1907 01:55:12,720 --> 01:55:14,160 they're, they're so concerned about. 1908 01:55:14,560 --> 01:55:20,040 And I think the, the uncertainty is the is whether the Buddhist 1909 01:55:20,040 --> 01:55:24,800 and Hindu traditions speak of reincarnation, recycling of, of 1910 01:55:24,800 --> 01:55:27,160 lives. The Christian and Islamic 1911 01:55:27,160 --> 01:55:31,440 traditions speak of a heaven that's a static place. 1912 01:55:31,880 --> 01:55:34,480 So which is it? I don't necessarily think it is 1913 01:55:34,480 --> 01:55:36,640 one or the other. I think part of, I think partly 1914 01:55:36,640 --> 01:55:41,160 it's your belief system. What where I saw family in a, in 1915 01:55:41,160 --> 01:55:43,760 an afterlife. It could have been a, it could 1916 01:55:43,760 --> 01:55:46,400 be where part of our my ancestors are. 1917 01:55:46,800 --> 01:55:50,400 That's one of their bodies. That spiritual body, an energy 1918 01:55:50,400 --> 01:55:53,480 body maybe is in a place like heaven. 1919 01:55:54,200 --> 01:55:56,840 Another part of them may reincarnate. 1920 01:55:56,840 --> 01:56:00,120 I tend to feel there's there's a, there's a pretty good body of 1921 01:56:00,120 --> 01:56:03,200 evidence for either reincarnation in the human realm 1922 01:56:03,480 --> 01:56:07,640 or depending on the degree of spiritual knowledge and freedom. 1923 01:56:07,840 --> 01:56:11,680 I think what let me let me summarize I think the state in 1924 01:56:11,680 --> 01:56:15,760 which you pass the the what's called the Buddhists call the 1925 01:56:15,760 --> 01:56:21,320 bardo realm the degree to which you stay lucid in that place as 1926 01:56:21,320 --> 01:56:26,840 you see enormous possibilities of things to re identify with on 1927 01:56:27,080 --> 01:56:31,600 your way out. Identify with the light appears 1928 01:56:31,600 --> 01:56:38,560 to be a common theme and by by by doing so you will you'll have 1929 01:56:38,560 --> 01:56:40,360 an adventure. I think there is a post mortem 1930 01:56:40,360 --> 01:56:42,040 adventure. I think what we take from this 1931 01:56:42,040 --> 01:56:50,600 life into into a post mortem subtle bodied life is very much 1932 01:56:50,600 --> 01:56:53,480 worth considering. There's the I think the proper 1933 01:56:54,280 --> 01:56:58,000 distinction is not between life and death, but birth and death. 1934 01:56:58,480 --> 01:57:03,320 I I believe life continues, survival continues beyond birth 1935 01:57:03,720 --> 01:57:06,160 and death for sure. I like it. 1936 01:57:06,400 --> 01:57:10,000 I mean, there's tons of possibilities and infinite 1937 01:57:10,000 --> 01:57:13,560 possibilities and waking state and life. 1938 01:57:13,560 --> 01:57:19,520 Why wouldn't there be in death? Final question, this is my 1939 01:57:19,520 --> 01:57:22,320 favorite quote. 2 possibilities exist. 1940 01:57:22,360 --> 01:57:25,240 Either we are alone in the universe or we are not. 1941 01:57:25,400 --> 01:57:29,440 Both are equally terrifying. Arthur C Clarke and I think I 1942 01:57:29,440 --> 01:57:32,320 have an idea of what you're going to say, but do you think 1943 01:57:32,320 --> 01:57:35,120 there's life elsewhere in the universe or do you think we are 1944 01:57:35,120 --> 01:57:37,520 alone? And I let me, let me, I'll 1945 01:57:37,520 --> 01:57:40,520 change that a little bit because I know now your thoughts on 1946 01:57:41,440 --> 01:57:43,680 metaphysics and dimensions and things like that. 1947 01:57:43,960 --> 01:57:47,360 Do you think that there is life elsewhere in this physical 1948 01:57:47,400 --> 01:57:52,200 universe that we can quantify and see or examine? 1949 01:57:52,440 --> 01:57:54,160 Or do you think that we are alone? 1950 01:57:55,280 --> 01:57:59,240 I think that the the most probable is that there is 1951 01:57:59,680 --> 01:58:03,720 there's other life that is just when you grasp the enormity and 1952 01:58:03,720 --> 01:58:06,360 I don't know how many billions and billions and billions and 1953 01:58:06,360 --> 01:58:08,760 billions. Carl Sagan used to love that 1954 01:58:08,760 --> 01:58:12,360 kind of language, but stars and galaxies and so forth. 1955 01:58:14,000 --> 01:58:17,400 It is very seems to me far more likely that something we call 1956 01:58:17,400 --> 01:58:23,200 life is quite common, but it is also where are they? 1957 01:58:23,920 --> 01:58:27,400 Where are they? So there is something poignant 1958 01:58:27,400 --> 01:58:32,160 about our sense of being so alone and and of being unique, 1959 01:58:32,720 --> 01:58:38,120 but it may be a regional belief and it so that that's kind of 1960 01:58:38,120 --> 01:58:39,640 where I'd I'd I'd land with that. 1961 01:58:39,920 --> 01:58:42,840 I think it's probably the the odds are that life is 1962 01:58:42,840 --> 01:58:49,240 profligate. It is very numerous. 1963 01:58:50,320 --> 01:58:53,440 Yeah, I like it. I mean, statistically, that's 1964 01:58:53,440 --> 01:58:56,040 what the evidence gets behind. But you know, you never know. 1965 01:58:56,040 --> 01:58:58,280 What if we were the first? You know, we're the ones that 1966 01:58:58,280 --> 01:59:02,320 are going to spread the seed across the universe, if you 1967 01:59:02,320 --> 01:59:05,400 will. Or yeah, something along those 1968 01:59:05,400 --> 01:59:07,360 lines. I think it's in one of the 1969 01:59:07,360 --> 01:59:10,160 schools of Buddhism that says the human birth is is an 1970 01:59:10,160 --> 01:59:13,720 incredible opportunity because the beings lower than us often 1971 01:59:13,720 --> 01:59:19,040 don't have enough consciousness to to even aspire to anything 1972 01:59:19,040 --> 01:59:22,000 higher. And the beings higher than us 1973 01:59:22,280 --> 01:59:26,760 are just so enjoying of being in a bliss state that they don't 1974 01:59:26,760 --> 01:59:29,040 have any motivation. There's something about being in 1975 01:59:29,040 --> 01:59:32,360 this in in between realm for humans where we have enough 1976 01:59:32,360 --> 01:59:36,480 motivation to aspire to something larger that is 1977 01:59:36,480 --> 01:59:38,400 actually part of what we already are. 1978 01:59:38,720 --> 01:59:41,080 I like that. I like the idea that that middle 1979 01:59:41,080 --> 01:59:46,520 realm between in between the two is what it means to be a human 1980 01:59:46,520 --> 01:59:51,600 being, to ask about questions of meaning, and to pursue questions 1981 01:59:51,600 --> 01:59:55,600 of meaning as one of the most noble things that we can do and 1982 01:59:55,600 --> 01:59:59,160 be. I like that and I appreciate you 1983 01:59:59,160 --> 02:00:02,960 answering all my mind melter questions and. 1984 02:00:03,680 --> 02:00:05,120 Listen man, I want to wrap it up here. 1985 02:00:05,120 --> 02:00:09,360 We've been doing 2 hours, which didn't feel like it was 2 hours, 1986 02:00:09,360 --> 02:00:11,400 but I'd love to have you back on in the future. 1987 02:00:11,400 --> 02:00:13,080 There was a lot of stuff we didn't get to. 1988 02:00:13,560 --> 02:00:17,440 We didn't really touch too much on the cripples research or the 1989 02:00:17,440 --> 02:00:20,400 Rua Zimbabwe sightings and things like that and the the 1990 02:00:20,400 --> 02:00:22,680 angels and aliens. Maybe we can talk a lot about 1991 02:00:22,680 --> 02:00:25,000 that. Maybe next time I get you on 1992 02:00:25,000 --> 02:00:28,560 here 'cause there's just so much to talk about with this topic. 1993 02:00:28,560 --> 02:00:31,560 And I, I feel like these kinds of conversations are at a 1994 02:00:31,560 --> 02:00:34,560 premium because I think we both know the other kinds of 1995 02:00:34,560 --> 02:00:40,480 conversations and the nightly, you know, 800 number style UFO 1996 02:00:40,480 --> 02:00:44,720 shows with the people calling in and, and there's nothing wrong 1997 02:00:44,720 --> 02:00:48,760 with that stuff either. But I just think that these 1998 02:00:48,760 --> 02:00:53,520 ideas, the way that we talk about this stuff rather 1999 02:00:53,520 --> 02:00:57,000 philosophically, you're using in the context of metaphysics and 2000 02:00:57,000 --> 02:00:58,880 things like that. I think that these conversations 2001 02:00:58,880 --> 02:01:02,720 need to occur more so people can hear other possibilities and 2002 02:01:02,720 --> 02:01:04,480 other ways to talk about these things. 2003 02:01:05,080 --> 02:01:07,600 Well, I love your approach, Mike, that you, you have a long 2004 02:01:07,600 --> 02:01:12,080 form interview style and it's who would have thought, you 2005 02:01:12,080 --> 02:01:15,240 know, that the podcasting phenomenon would come along to 2006 02:01:15,240 --> 02:01:20,400 make it possible for the old fashioned long dialogue, 2007 02:01:21,520 --> 02:01:25,160 symposium type conversations could happen with the frequency 2008 02:01:25,520 --> 02:01:27,960 that that this medium is making possible. 2009 02:01:27,960 --> 02:01:32,280 So thank you for what you do. I appreciate it and I appreciate 2010 02:01:32,280 --> 02:01:35,960 you sharing your time and your research and your personal 2011 02:01:35,960 --> 02:01:38,520 stories and stuff and even your near death experience. 2012 02:01:38,520 --> 02:01:40,240 A lot of these things can be very personal. 2013 02:01:40,240 --> 02:01:41,560 Some people don't even share them. 2014 02:01:41,560 --> 02:01:45,240 So I appreciate you sharing all that and I appreciate you being 2015 02:01:45,240 --> 02:01:49,400 an ambassador to the more intellectual side of these 2016 02:01:49,400 --> 02:01:51,600 topics. And like I said, I'd love to 2017 02:01:51,600 --> 02:01:53,080 have you back on sometime in the future. 2018 02:01:53,080 --> 02:01:55,480 Maybe sometime after the new year, we can get you back on 2019 02:01:55,480 --> 02:01:57,320 here and discuss all the other stuff. 2020 02:01:58,000 --> 02:02:00,480 And we're going to end this one the way we end all of our 2021 02:02:00,480 --> 02:02:03,520 podcasts, which is we love everybody. 2022 02:02:03,520 --> 02:02:06,040 Stay safe out there, and we'll catch you next time. 2023 02:02:06,480 --> 02:02:11,880 Peace if you would like to support mind escape, there's 2024 02:02:11,880 --> 02:02:14,640 many ways you can do it, but the best way to do it is to click 2025 02:02:14,640 --> 02:02:20,360 the link tree link down below. I have everything from merch to 2026 02:02:20,400 --> 02:02:24,800 our Patreon page, our Patreon. By the way, I archived a lot of 2027 02:02:24,840 --> 02:02:27,480 the mind escape one point O episodes on there. 2028 02:02:27,800 --> 02:02:30,960 There is still some available on our YouTube channel and our 2029 02:02:30,960 --> 02:02:35,440 Spotify and Apple podcast. However, like I said, if you're 2030 02:02:35,440 --> 02:02:38,280 looking for a specific older episode, it might be on our 2031 02:02:38,280 --> 02:02:42,120 Patreon which has been archived and it's $2.00 a month and 2032 02:02:42,120 --> 02:02:45,040 there's also exclusive content on there as well that was never 2033 02:02:45,040 --> 02:02:48,720 released to any other platform, so please go check that out. 2034 02:02:48,720 --> 02:02:50,880 You can also check out our documentary that Maurice and I 2035 02:02:50,880 --> 02:02:54,800 made a few years ago called As Within So Without from UFOs to 2036 02:02:54,800 --> 02:02:57,960 DMT that is available on there as well. 2037 02:02:57,960 --> 02:03:01,640 There's also a director's cut video versions of Mind Escape. 2038 02:03:01,640 --> 02:03:06,040 New telos are available on YouTube and Spotify, and it's 2039 02:03:06,040 --> 02:03:09,160 also available on all audio platforms like Apple and 2040 02:03:09,160 --> 02:03:11,520 whatever other audio platform you use to listen to your 2041 02:03:11,520 --> 02:03:14,960 podcast. So please subscribe, like and 2042 02:03:14,960 --> 02:03:17,880 follow us, and we'd also appreciate any nice review.