1 00:00:48,400 --> 00:00:52,960 Welcome to Mind Escape New telos. 8 years ago I started 2 00:00:52,960 --> 00:00:54,720 Mind Escape with my cousin Maurice. 3 00:00:55,640 --> 00:00:59,280 At the time I was in the middle of a transformation, maybe even 4 00:00:59,280 --> 00:01:02,600 an existential crisis. My mother had just been 5 00:01:02,600 --> 00:01:04,920 diagnosed with an aggressive form of cancer. 6 00:01:05,360 --> 00:01:09,360 I was desperately searching for meaning, for answers about who 7 00:01:09,360 --> 00:01:13,840 we are and why we are here. That search led me back into 8 00:01:13,840 --> 00:01:17,720 spirituality and eventually into the world of ancient mysteries 9 00:01:17,720 --> 00:01:21,880 and esoteric knowledge. I felt strongly that somewhere 10 00:01:21,880 --> 00:01:25,320 in those traditions, somewhere in the fringes of human thought, 11 00:01:25,800 --> 00:01:29,640 there had to be wisdom, or at least clues to the questions I 12 00:01:29,640 --> 00:01:33,960 was asking. So I dove in, I read endlessly, 13 00:01:34,240 --> 00:01:37,160 and I started reaching out to authors, researchers, and 14 00:01:37,160 --> 00:01:39,880 thinkers to ask them directly about their work and their 15 00:01:39,880 --> 00:01:42,960 experiences. That journey connected me with 16 00:01:42,960 --> 00:01:46,760 incredible people, some of whom I now call friends, others I 17 00:01:46,760 --> 00:01:48,880 still exchange ideas with regularly. 18 00:01:49,280 --> 00:01:52,720 Many were brilliant, some had perspectives I had never even 19 00:01:52,720 --> 00:01:56,120 considered, and all of them helped shape the trajectory of 20 00:01:56,120 --> 00:01:59,240 mind escape. In those early years, I was 21 00:01:59,240 --> 00:02:03,320 trying to find the line of where reality meets magic. 22 00:02:03,560 --> 00:02:07,000 Because I approach things with an open mind and an open heart, 23 00:02:07,320 --> 00:02:10,440 I sometimes fell victim to rhetoric and repeated ideas 24 00:02:10,440 --> 00:02:12,800 that, looking back, I wouldn't endorse now. 25 00:02:13,280 --> 00:02:16,760 But I also tried to call out inconsistencies and keep things 26 00:02:16,760 --> 00:02:18,880 fair. Whether I was dealing with the 27 00:02:18,880 --> 00:02:23,160 academic world or the fringe communities, case by case, I was 28 00:02:23,160 --> 00:02:25,480 trying to sort truth from illusion. 29 00:02:26,640 --> 00:02:30,560 About five years ago, that path led me deeper into philosophy, 30 00:02:30,840 --> 00:02:34,560 specifically epistemology, ontology, and teleology. 31 00:02:35,120 --> 00:02:37,680 I developed a habit of chasing origins. 32 00:02:38,080 --> 00:02:40,600 Where did an idea start, and why? 33 00:02:41,600 --> 00:02:45,240 Through that process, I became more aware not only of other 34 00:02:45,240 --> 00:02:49,960 people's biases, but of my own. And that awareness changed 35 00:02:49,960 --> 00:02:52,680 everything. Many of the so-called mysteries 36 00:02:52,680 --> 00:02:55,800 I once thought were truly inexplicable turned out to be 37 00:02:55,800 --> 00:03:00,520 explainable, quantifiable, or simply products of human error, 38 00:03:00,520 --> 00:03:04,600 flawed memory, or in some cases, unfortunately, an outright 39 00:03:04,600 --> 00:03:07,360 grift. But some questions remain, 40 00:03:07,920 --> 00:03:10,040 questions that resist easy answers. 41 00:03:10,320 --> 00:03:12,400 I'd call these the true mysteries. 42 00:03:12,880 --> 00:03:17,400 Who or what are we communicating with in deep psychedelic states? 43 00:03:17,920 --> 00:03:21,480 What are UF OS, really? Did life emerge through 44 00:03:21,480 --> 00:03:25,560 abiogenesis, or was it through some sort of form of panspermia? 45 00:03:26,080 --> 00:03:29,520 Do we live inside a black hole, or are we in a multiverse? 46 00:03:29,880 --> 00:03:33,720 These questions belong more to metaphysics than magic, and 47 00:03:33,720 --> 00:03:35,680 that's the shift I've come to embrace. 48 00:03:36,360 --> 00:03:40,360 The truth is, the magic we're searching for isn't out there, 49 00:03:40,400 --> 00:03:43,800 it's within us. Mind creates matter, at least to 50 00:03:43,800 --> 00:03:46,720 a certain degree. We are the magic. 51 00:03:47,120 --> 00:03:51,160 That realization changed my purpose, my telos, if you will. 52 00:03:51,720 --> 00:03:54,800 Mind escape. New telos reflects where I am 53 00:03:54,800 --> 00:03:58,280 now. Skeptical but open, critical but 54 00:03:58,280 --> 00:04:01,200 imaginative. Committed to clarity without 55 00:04:01,200 --> 00:04:04,000 losing wonder. To truly breakthrough in 56 00:04:04,000 --> 00:04:06,000 thought, you have to shed belief. 57 00:04:06,280 --> 00:04:09,840 Belief clouds observation, and observation is the foundation of 58 00:04:09,840 --> 00:04:12,760 discovery. New Telos is about making that 59 00:04:12,760 --> 00:04:16,839 leap, letting go of dogma so we can see more clearly and think 60 00:04:16,839 --> 00:04:20,279 more freely. Philosophy is a way of life. 61 00:04:21,120 --> 00:04:23,960 There was a time when I leaned on spirituality and higher 62 00:04:23,960 --> 00:04:26,640 powers as a way to cope with suffering. 63 00:04:27,240 --> 00:04:30,440 It was intoxicating. It lifted the weight off of life 64 00:04:30,440 --> 00:04:34,200 for a while, but it ultimately left me in a cycle of why me and 65 00:04:34,200 --> 00:04:37,040 poor me because I wasn't actually doing anything about 66 00:04:37,040 --> 00:04:39,440 it. Philosophy changed that. 67 00:04:39,840 --> 00:04:43,480 When you understand your own mind and biases and then apply 68 00:04:43,480 --> 00:04:47,160 epistemology, ontology, and teleology, you gain the tools to 69 00:04:47,160 --> 00:04:50,400 take ownership over your own mind, your life, and your 70 00:04:50,400 --> 00:04:53,480 decisions. I am not just talking about 71 00:04:53,480 --> 00:04:58,760 philosophy, I am living it. So what's next for mind Escape? 72 00:04:59,320 --> 00:05:03,120 While I was on hiatus building my new series called Masters of 73 00:05:03,120 --> 00:05:05,400 Rhetoric, which you should definitely go check out on 74 00:05:05,400 --> 00:05:09,760 YouTube and all audio podcast platforms, I received emails, 75 00:05:09,760 --> 00:05:13,440 DMS, and even texts from longtime listeners who said they 76 00:05:13,440 --> 00:05:15,840 missed Mind Escape and hoped that I would continue it. 77 00:05:16,320 --> 00:05:20,160 Honestly, I plan to overhaul the whole thing and just make it 78 00:05:20,160 --> 00:05:22,200 unrecognizable to old Mind Escape. 79 00:05:22,480 --> 00:05:26,080 But after reflection, I realized I don't need to erase the past. 80 00:05:26,800 --> 00:05:30,560 The new Telos era will keep some of the familiar elements while 81 00:05:30,560 --> 00:05:34,240 adding new ones. I will continue to do live 82 00:05:34,240 --> 00:05:37,960 episodes with guests. There will also be pre recorded 83 00:05:37,960 --> 00:05:41,240 conversations for guests that are overseas or that are being 84 00:05:41,240 --> 00:05:45,840 recorded at odd hours. There will be more solo episodes 85 00:05:45,840 --> 00:05:49,560 on science updates, philosophy, and personal reflections. 86 00:05:50,160 --> 00:05:53,360 I will be implementing YouTube Shorts and clips which is 87 00:05:53,360 --> 00:05:55,920 something I've been doing with the Master's Rhetoric channel. 88 00:05:55,960 --> 00:05:58,440 Again, please go check that out. The link is down below. 89 00:05:59,280 --> 00:06:02,440 There will also be a new segment and maybe even more in the 90 00:06:02,440 --> 00:06:05,920 future, but currently the new segment will be called Mike's 91 00:06:05,920 --> 00:06:09,800 Mind Melters where I will ask 5 philosophical questions to my 92 00:06:09,800 --> 00:06:12,720 guest. I feel refreshed. 93 00:06:12,800 --> 00:06:16,360 I feel revitalized. I'm ready to start this new era 94 00:06:16,360 --> 00:06:19,040 of mind escape. Thank you to everyone who has 95 00:06:19,040 --> 00:06:22,200 supported the show from the beginning and those who are just 96 00:06:22,200 --> 00:06:25,360 joining the journey now. Please leave a comment or e-mail 97 00:06:25,360 --> 00:06:28,120 me with any guest or topic suggestions. 98 00:06:28,400 --> 00:06:31,160 As for tonight, I will be recording this first episode of 99 00:06:31,160 --> 00:06:37,200 New Telos with Dennis Walker AKA Micropreneur, where we will be 100 00:06:37,200 --> 00:06:41,760 discussing his satire, comedy, psychedelic updates, and the 101 00:06:41,760 --> 00:06:44,760 fascinating world of functional and medicinal mushrooms. 102 00:06:45,440 --> 00:06:49,560 Please check out Dennis's podcast Micropreneur and also 103 00:06:49,560 --> 00:06:52,120 anything he does. This dude is just constantly 104 00:06:52,120 --> 00:06:56,800 traveling the world and engaging with different people from all 105 00:06:56,800 --> 00:06:59,520 walks of life on mushrooms and psychedelics. 106 00:06:59,800 --> 00:07:01,280 So again, please check out his work. 107 00:07:01,280 --> 00:07:05,040 It's super fascinating. Thank you and stay tuned for the 108 00:07:05,040 --> 00:07:07,360 show. All right, Dennis, thank you so 109 00:07:07,360 --> 00:07:09,320 much for coming back on. How are you doing? 110 00:07:10,520 --> 00:07:12,400 It's great to be here and welcome back dude. 111 00:07:12,400 --> 00:07:16,680 I'm a fan of the show. Hello to everyone and I missed 112 00:07:16,680 --> 00:07:19,200 that intro music man. I remember you produced your own 113 00:07:19,200 --> 00:07:21,320 intro music. I was very impressed by the 114 00:07:21,320 --> 00:07:24,880 whole the visuals and the music but welcome back none none the 115 00:07:24,880 --> 00:07:26,120 less. Thank you. 116 00:07:26,200 --> 00:07:30,320 Yeah, it'll be added in to the episode after I actually, I'm 117 00:07:30,320 --> 00:07:32,800 going to edit a little, put a little effort into it going 118 00:07:32,800 --> 00:07:34,280 forward and you know what I'm saying? 119 00:07:35,720 --> 00:07:38,040 But I appreciate it and I appreciate you coming back on. 120 00:07:38,040 --> 00:07:43,120 And if you don't know who Dennis is, follow Micro Mycopreneur. 121 00:07:43,600 --> 00:07:47,680 I have the links down below. And he does satire. 122 00:07:47,680 --> 00:07:50,720 He has, you know, a whole community online of 123 00:07:50,720 --> 00:07:54,520 entrepreneurs, people associated with the psychedelic community, 124 00:07:54,800 --> 00:07:57,920 mushrooms, functional mushrooms, all that kind of stuff. 125 00:07:57,920 --> 00:08:01,440 So check it out. But yeah, man, what's going on 126 00:08:01,440 --> 00:08:03,320 with you? It's been a while since we 127 00:08:03,320 --> 00:08:06,640 caught up. Yeah, as I mentioned earlier, 128 00:08:06,640 --> 00:08:10,880 the major development of my life is I have a 8 month old boy 129 00:08:10,880 --> 00:08:13,560 right now. So first time entering 130 00:08:13,560 --> 00:08:16,280 parenthood. He's been keeping us on our 131 00:08:16,280 --> 00:08:19,240 toes. It's been an amazing, 132 00:08:19,240 --> 00:08:23,400 extraordinary journey so far. And if I doze off in the middle 133 00:08:23,400 --> 00:08:25,480 of the interview, that's probably why, honestly, you 134 00:08:25,480 --> 00:08:28,480 know? Yeah, you got to, you have to 135 00:08:28,480 --> 00:08:31,480 get that sleep when you can, especially with a a little guy 136 00:08:31,480 --> 00:08:36,520 there and is somebody that has an almost 4 year old now it it 137 00:08:36,520 --> 00:08:39,240 doesn't get any easier unfortunately. 138 00:08:40,280 --> 00:08:42,760 Charm to hear that, Yeah. I mean, I've been waking up at 139 00:08:42,760 --> 00:08:47,080 like 5:00 AM because pretty much 5:00 AM to 8:00 AM are my only 140 00:08:47,080 --> 00:08:49,800 uninterrupted hours until he goes to sleep. 141 00:08:49,800 --> 00:08:54,240 It's 8:30 and change where I am and he he's usually winding down 142 00:08:54,240 --> 00:08:56,840 at 8:00 PM. But it's been awesome. 143 00:08:56,840 --> 00:08:58,640 You know, it's something I've always wanted to do. 144 00:08:58,680 --> 00:09:01,440 And I guess there's no way to really prepare someone for it. 145 00:09:01,840 --> 00:09:04,680 Kind of like a psychedelic trip. You can read about it, you can 146 00:09:04,680 --> 00:09:07,880 talk about it, but until you go through it, whole different ball 147 00:09:07,880 --> 00:09:11,120 game, brother. Oh 100%. 148 00:09:12,360 --> 00:09:15,960 And I know it's cliche, but having my son was easily the 149 00:09:15,960 --> 00:09:19,640 best and greatest thing I've ever done, no questions asked. 150 00:09:19,640 --> 00:09:24,120 So I feel you there. I thought we'd get crack in 151 00:09:24,120 --> 00:09:28,600 here. Let's start off with a little 152 00:09:28,600 --> 00:09:30,680 bit of your background. I think in the past we've talked 153 00:09:30,680 --> 00:09:34,360 about like how you got into all this and like psychedelics and 154 00:09:34,360 --> 00:09:36,600 all that stuff. But like when you were building 155 00:09:36,600 --> 00:09:40,760 Micropreneur and you were thinking about how you were 156 00:09:40,760 --> 00:09:45,320 going to do it, was it initially like a brand idea or are you 157 00:09:45,320 --> 00:09:48,080 trying to create like a like a cultural platform? 158 00:09:49,760 --> 00:09:52,200 And did you initially try and start with the satire or was 159 00:09:52,200 --> 00:09:53,880 that something that you added in later? 160 00:09:55,040 --> 00:09:58,360 The satire came later. So I've always been a psycho now 161 00:09:58,440 --> 00:10:01,400 from day one. I think I was 17 when I had my 162 00:10:01,400 --> 00:10:05,440 first psilocybin mushroom experience, and I identified 163 00:10:05,440 --> 00:10:08,800 with the psychonaut crowd before that because quite frankly, my 164 00:10:09,280 --> 00:10:12,040 early cannabis experiences were pretty psychedelic, pretty 165 00:10:12,040 --> 00:10:16,720 visual, close eyed visuals, geometric patterns and all that. 166 00:10:17,000 --> 00:10:18,840 And so I knew there was something there. 167 00:10:18,840 --> 00:10:21,320 It was clear to me and I did my research. 168 00:10:21,320 --> 00:10:24,880 I went to the library. This was literally before we 169 00:10:24,920 --> 00:10:27,880 regularly used the Internet like I had it, but we had a computer 170 00:10:27,880 --> 00:10:29,560 lab at school. It wasn't like we all had the 171 00:10:29,560 --> 00:10:32,000 Internet on our phones. So I remember going to the 172 00:10:32,000 --> 00:10:35,960 library and checking out books from like Yale ethnobotanist 173 00:10:35,960 --> 00:10:39,280 from Mark Plotkin, I think was really one of my first points of 174 00:10:39,600 --> 00:10:42,440 entry. And then I discovered Erewid. 175 00:10:42,560 --> 00:10:47,160 And over the next couple years, this was like circa 2005, 2006 176 00:10:47,160 --> 00:10:49,680 around there. Then I became increasingly 177 00:10:49,680 --> 00:10:54,560 infatuated with these visionary compounds, and more specifically 178 00:10:54,560 --> 00:10:57,520 from indigenous cultures around the world, started reading about 179 00:10:57,640 --> 00:11:02,880 ayahuasca, started reading about Maria Sabina, and found Terence 180 00:11:02,880 --> 00:11:06,160 McKenna. And then so that was over many 181 00:11:06,160 --> 00:11:08,920 years, and I went to school in San Francisco, which is kind of 182 00:11:08,920 --> 00:11:13,480 like Ground Zero for Western psychedelia and was a stone's 183 00:11:13,480 --> 00:11:17,360 throw from the hate street. So I kind of cut my teeth 2007 184 00:11:17,360 --> 00:11:21,360 through 2012, living on the hate and connecting with that whole 185 00:11:21,360 --> 00:11:26,000 legacy and learning about a lot more of these Western pioneers 186 00:11:26,000 --> 00:11:28,920 of psychedelics, which sent me down a million different roads. 187 00:11:29,320 --> 00:11:33,360 And then it was 2020 when I decided to launch Mycopreneur. 188 00:11:33,360 --> 00:11:35,520 So it was very much a pandemic project. 189 00:11:35,920 --> 00:11:38,520 I already had edited and produced media. 190 00:11:38,560 --> 00:11:42,640 I'd done podcasts for a couple well known international brands 191 00:11:42,640 --> 00:11:46,280 where I was kind of on the production side of them, like 192 00:11:46,280 --> 00:11:49,960 for example, Occidental College in LA for their diplomacy and 193 00:11:49,960 --> 00:11:53,040 world affairs department. So I had a sense of how to 194 00:11:53,040 --> 00:11:57,840 podcast, but I had never considered hosting a podcast and 195 00:11:57,840 --> 00:12:01,480 even less so, I had never considered openly talking about 196 00:12:01,480 --> 00:12:05,680 psychedelics and mushrooms. But I sort of had the put two 197 00:12:05,680 --> 00:12:09,760 and two together moment, that aha moment where I was like, OK, 198 00:12:09,840 --> 00:12:13,400 it's more culturally acceptable now to talk about psychedelics. 199 00:12:13,400 --> 00:12:17,720 And that really happened in 2018-2019 going back to like 200 00:12:17,720 --> 00:12:21,560 2012 through, you know, that whole, there was nobody talking 201 00:12:21,560 --> 00:12:24,680 about very, very few people talking about psychedelics 202 00:12:24,720 --> 00:12:30,240 outside of like a few, you know, The Who who like Johns Hopkins 203 00:12:30,240 --> 00:12:32,160 researchers and a handful of things. 204 00:12:32,160 --> 00:12:36,400 But it was kind of like if career, career suicide is one 205 00:12:36,440 --> 00:12:39,600 word for it, like if you were going to openly discuss that you 206 00:12:39,600 --> 00:12:43,520 were a psychonaut, you know, there's a reason everybody was 207 00:12:43,520 --> 00:12:46,600 using pseudonyms and code names and Internet names and all that. 208 00:12:46,800 --> 00:12:50,120 And then that, for whatever reason, around 2018-2019, thanks 209 00:12:50,120 --> 00:12:53,880 to a few of these kind of pop culture breakthroughs, be at the 210 00:12:53,880 --> 00:12:57,800 Michael Pollan book or the Fantastic Fungi Netflix film, 211 00:12:57,800 --> 00:13:00,600 etcetera, all the sudden it became a little bit more 212 00:13:00,640 --> 00:13:02,440 culturally acceptable to speak about them. 213 00:13:02,760 --> 00:13:05,960 And during the pandemic, I just said, you know what? 214 00:13:06,280 --> 00:13:09,160 The world's kind of topsy turvy turned on its head. 215 00:13:09,360 --> 00:13:11,520 There's this whole new normal thing going on. 216 00:13:11,920 --> 00:13:15,040 I think it's time for me to speak openly and own my story. 217 00:13:15,360 --> 00:13:17,920 And that's when I came out with Micropreneur Podcast, and I 218 00:13:17,920 --> 00:13:21,800 remember sending out a cold message to like 12 people I knew 219 00:13:21,800 --> 00:13:25,240 who I knew were into psychedelics and mushrooms, but 220 00:13:25,240 --> 00:13:30,000 also kind of had a platform and a degree of cultural legitimacy. 221 00:13:30,000 --> 00:13:32,920 There was like, my first interview was Michelle Janikian. 222 00:13:32,920 --> 00:13:36,360 She was a Playboy writer and wrote a book about mushrooms she 223 00:13:36,360 --> 00:13:39,240 had written for a Rolling Stone. So already it's like, OK, this 224 00:13:39,240 --> 00:13:42,840 is a journalist who has professional experience and also 225 00:13:42,840 --> 00:13:44,000 has written a book about mushrooms. 226 00:13:44,000 --> 00:13:48,480 Of course she said yes. Another guy, Alan Lilienthal, he 227 00:13:49,000 --> 00:13:53,200 has a podcast on KPBS and I know he's been very open about 228 00:13:53,200 --> 00:13:56,000 psychedelics. So pretty much everyone I asked 229 00:13:56,000 --> 00:13:59,280 said, yeah, I would love to talk to to you about my mushroom 230 00:13:59,280 --> 00:14:01,680 experiences. And then one thing leads to the 231 00:14:01,680 --> 00:14:04,880 next and it's like, next thing you know, I got a veteran who's 232 00:14:04,920 --> 00:14:07,640 been on 2 tours of duty in Afghanistan. 233 00:14:07,640 --> 00:14:10,400 Shut up Colin Wells and veterans walk and talk. 234 00:14:10,680 --> 00:14:15,240 And then I've got a therapist friend from college and over 235 00:14:15,240 --> 00:14:19,920 time it led to I've got publicly traded CEO's now I've got people 236 00:14:19,920 --> 00:14:23,280 from, you know, multi $1,000,000 companies who want to come talk 237 00:14:23,280 --> 00:14:26,240 about their research. And that kind of gave rise to 238 00:14:26,240 --> 00:14:30,480 the satire because about a year in, so around 2021 or so, I 239 00:14:30,480 --> 00:14:33,160 realized mushrooms, psychedelics, etcetera. 240 00:14:33,480 --> 00:14:36,920 They're have a very funny side to them potentially. 241 00:14:36,920 --> 00:14:40,480 Like how many times have people laughed and tripped or gone to a 242 00:14:40,480 --> 00:14:42,960 concert and just had the time of their lives? 243 00:14:43,360 --> 00:14:46,640 But to make them culturally acceptable, there has to be this 244 00:14:46,640 --> 00:14:50,240 sort of scientific rigor. And I think that's good, but not 245 00:14:50,240 --> 00:14:54,840 at the expense of losing this kind of funny, hilarious side of 246 00:14:54,840 --> 00:14:56,760 things. So I really leaned into that and 247 00:14:56,760 --> 00:14:58,160 it's worked out over the last couple years. 248 00:14:58,160 --> 00:15:00,680 So that's kind of in a nutshell how I got to where I'm where I'm 249 00:15:00,680 --> 00:15:03,720 at today. Awesome. 250 00:15:03,720 --> 00:15:07,080 Yeah, I, I can identify with a lot of that. 251 00:15:07,080 --> 00:15:11,240 Obviously for the last, I mean, since I was in high school, 252 00:15:11,240 --> 00:15:17,400 we've been playing in jam bands and going to see fish and you 253 00:15:17,400 --> 00:15:21,160 know, the whole jam scene and everything in shakedown and 254 00:15:21,160 --> 00:15:23,680 psychedelics. That was always a huge part of 255 00:15:23,680 --> 00:15:27,240 that culture. So you know, Maurice and I, my 256 00:15:27,680 --> 00:15:32,240 former Co host and cousin, we've seen a ton of shows together and 257 00:15:33,240 --> 00:15:37,080 I remember being 15 or 16 and reading Electric Kool-aid Acid 258 00:15:37,080 --> 00:15:42,400 Test and then on the road and just like all these ideas kind 259 00:15:42,400 --> 00:15:45,040 of came together and we're like, let's start touring around 260 00:15:45,040 --> 00:15:47,720 seeing stuff, experiencing things and yeah, totally with 261 00:15:47,720 --> 00:15:50,960 the arrow wid and all that stuff. 262 00:15:50,960 --> 00:15:55,760 So I can identify with a lot of what you're saying, minus the 263 00:15:55,760 --> 00:15:59,400 business side, which is why I like following you because I 264 00:15:59,400 --> 00:16:03,680 learned a lot in terms of like what's happening on the 265 00:16:03,680 --> 00:16:06,760 financial side of things and the legal side of things and all 266 00:16:06,760 --> 00:16:10,600 that. Because I'm not really too 267 00:16:10,600 --> 00:16:13,520 interested in that. I'm more looking at it from like 268 00:16:13,520 --> 00:16:17,600 a phenomenological standpoint, like the whole experiential 269 00:16:17,600 --> 00:16:20,080 thing. But it is interesting when you 270 00:16:20,080 --> 00:16:22,760 look at the business and the culture and how it's evolved and 271 00:16:22,760 --> 00:16:28,480 grown and everything like that. And I remember seeing, I forget 272 00:16:28,480 --> 00:16:31,760 what it was, it was a podcast. It wasn't Joe Rogan or anything 273 00:16:31,760 --> 00:16:33,920 like that, but it was in the early days of podcast, somebody 274 00:16:33,920 --> 00:16:36,800 was talking about psychedelics. I'm like, oh, you know, people 275 00:16:36,800 --> 00:16:41,720 are talking about this on, on here now, you know, so that was 276 00:16:41,720 --> 00:16:45,280 something that we'd always, you know, kind of hush, hush talk to 277 00:16:45,280 --> 00:16:49,400 amongst friends and close personal bandmates and things 278 00:16:49,400 --> 00:16:52,480 like that. But yeah, it's, it's come a long 279 00:16:52,480 --> 00:16:54,160 way. Same thing with cannabis. 280 00:16:54,160 --> 00:16:57,280 I mean, I think it's headed all in the right direction in terms 281 00:16:57,280 --> 00:17:02,240 of at least investigating to see what can be used beneficially 282 00:17:02,240 --> 00:17:07,839 and what's kind of BS. So you've interviewed mushroom 283 00:17:07,839 --> 00:17:13,319 entrepreneurs across tons of countries and all around the 284 00:17:13,319 --> 00:17:16,760 world. What are some common themes that 285 00:17:16,760 --> 00:17:19,800 keep coming up in conversations when you talk with these people, 286 00:17:20,040 --> 00:17:22,960 whether it's cultural or business or whatever? 287 00:17:24,599 --> 00:17:27,520 Yeah, thanks for asking. So I definitely came out all of 288 00:17:27,520 --> 00:17:30,800 this from the cultural side. I played in a band in college 289 00:17:30,800 --> 00:17:36,400 for five years and was heavily experimenting and investing my 290 00:17:36,400 --> 00:17:39,240 time and energy with mushrooms and all kinds of other 291 00:17:39,240 --> 00:17:43,040 psychedelics. And so that was kind of my point 292 00:17:43,040 --> 00:17:47,560 of interest mainly is psilocybin mushrooms and quote, magic 293 00:17:47,560 --> 00:17:52,240 mushrooms and the whole like cultural side, scientific 294 00:17:52,240 --> 00:17:55,520 financial side that's coming out of all that has sort of been a 295 00:17:55,520 --> 00:17:59,800 byproduct of my interest. And like I always say that I got 296 00:17:59,800 --> 00:18:04,080 into this by listening to OK Computer on a macro dose 297 00:18:04,080 --> 00:18:08,000 Radiohead album super far out. And it sent me to these 298 00:18:08,160 --> 00:18:11,560 unimaginable, previously unimaginable dimensions, which 299 00:18:11,560 --> 00:18:15,480 were very intelligent, it felt like, and very ancient. 300 00:18:15,480 --> 00:18:16,720 Who knows? I mean, I'm preaching to the 301 00:18:16,720 --> 00:18:19,280 choir here, I bet. But it was trying to figure out 302 00:18:19,280 --> 00:18:21,640 like, what's going on there and how come we're not talking about 303 00:18:21,640 --> 00:18:23,640 this? And how come this isn't a, this 304 00:18:23,640 --> 00:18:28,240 isn't a cultural blind spot. So it's sort of been a sort of 305 00:18:28,880 --> 00:18:33,880 accidental happenstance that I got into this kind of, I guess, 306 00:18:34,080 --> 00:18:36,080 financial side of things, if you will. 307 00:18:36,440 --> 00:18:39,200 But what comes up with talking to all these different people? 308 00:18:39,800 --> 00:18:44,320 I think that there's a huge amount of ethnomycology 309 00:18:44,520 --> 00:18:47,960 knowledge, ethnomycological knowledge, like little pockets 310 00:18:47,960 --> 00:18:51,920 around the world of ancestral and indigenous knowledge about 311 00:18:51,920 --> 00:18:54,600 mushrooms. But that's just one focal point 312 00:18:54,600 --> 00:18:58,760 for a broader relationship with how to interact with the world, 313 00:18:58,960 --> 00:19:03,400 how to interact with altered states, things like dreaming and 314 00:19:03,880 --> 00:19:06,760 ceremonies for curing illnesses, etcetera. 315 00:19:07,000 --> 00:19:09,560 And that's always been so fascinating to me. 316 00:19:09,560 --> 00:19:14,280 Like if you go to a little remote corner of Northeast India 317 00:19:14,520 --> 00:19:18,440 that they have all of these folk tales about mushrooms and OK, 318 00:19:18,440 --> 00:19:21,280 when the Thunder hits, then it produces the mushroom. 319 00:19:21,280 --> 00:19:24,760 The mushroom spirit comes and then we give it to someone when 320 00:19:24,760 --> 00:19:27,000 they're sick. There's just so much that you 321 00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:30,600 can unpack there. And you hear these stories from 322 00:19:30,600 --> 00:19:33,560 all over the planet. Like there will be tribes in 323 00:19:33,560 --> 00:19:37,880 Norway and tribes in Uruguay or Paraguay that have the same 324 00:19:37,880 --> 00:19:40,320 mushroom with the same origin story. 325 00:19:40,680 --> 00:19:43,480 And that stuff is just so fascinating to me. 326 00:19:43,680 --> 00:19:47,400 The ethnomycological traditions basically, so those come up a 327 00:19:47,400 --> 00:19:51,080 lot where people will say, Oh yeah, the ancestors or the the 328 00:19:51,080 --> 00:19:55,760 elders of our tribe, they have very detailed knowledge about 329 00:19:55,760 --> 00:19:58,680 these different mushrooms, the morphology of them. 330 00:19:58,680 --> 00:20:01,320 They'll be able to distinguish which ones are edible versus 331 00:20:01,320 --> 00:20:04,440 toxic. They'll know which ones to give 332 00:20:04,440 --> 00:20:07,560 you to have visions or to cure an illness. 333 00:20:07,840 --> 00:20:11,280 And also this is a, this knowledge is emerging from all 334 00:20:11,280 --> 00:20:14,440 over the world. So for years, academia has only. 335 00:20:14,680 --> 00:20:19,800 Substantiated that Maria Sabina and Mazitex and in Mexico and 336 00:20:19,800 --> 00:20:24,000 kind of this Central American Mexican tradition around 337 00:20:24,160 --> 00:20:26,840 psilocybin mushrooms. But there's been increasing 338 00:20:27,640 --> 00:20:30,840 substantiation academically from other pockets of the world like 339 00:20:30,840 --> 00:20:34,680 from South Africa has come out with indigenous knowledge around 340 00:20:34,680 --> 00:20:37,240 mushrooms. And I've heard anecdotal reports 341 00:20:37,240 --> 00:20:41,080 of healers in West Africa and including by academics who've 342 00:20:41,080 --> 00:20:44,600 said, yes, they have knowledge of mushrooms, but there was just 343 00:20:44,840 --> 00:20:47,080 really, it's an underfunded science. 344 00:20:47,080 --> 00:20:48,640 It's a citizen science driving this. 345 00:20:48,640 --> 00:20:50,320 So how many mycologists are there? 346 00:20:50,320 --> 00:20:53,160 This is a new thing. Like, I spent a lot of time in 347 00:20:53,160 --> 00:20:55,080 Chiapas, Mexico. I'm here right now. 348 00:20:55,080 --> 00:20:56,480 We have a mushroom festival this week. 349 00:20:57,080 --> 00:20:59,000 For years. There's literally like one or 350 00:20:59,000 --> 00:21:03,240 two mycologists in this entire state that encompasses millions 351 00:21:03,240 --> 00:21:05,840 of square miles and thousands of years of tradition. 352 00:21:05,840 --> 00:21:08,840 But it's like that all over the planet, Papua New Guinea, all 353 00:21:08,840 --> 00:21:12,040 all over Africa. So I think it's really a case of 354 00:21:12,040 --> 00:21:14,680 just like nobody's really gone there looking. 355 00:21:14,680 --> 00:21:18,120 And if they have, then there's a lot of gatekeeping for obvious 356 00:21:18,120 --> 00:21:22,000 reasons, because historically a lot of indigenous tribes, they 357 00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:24,600 know that if they share this knowledge, it's probably gonna 358 00:21:24,600 --> 00:21:27,200 be taken from them. You know, they were many people 359 00:21:27,200 --> 00:21:29,640 were burned at the stake for witchcraft for these. 360 00:21:29,640 --> 00:21:33,280 So that's one thing that keeps coming up is people will say, Oh 361 00:21:33,280 --> 00:21:36,400 yeah, we have knowledge around mushrooms in Borneo, we have 362 00:21:36,400 --> 00:21:38,880 knowledge around mushrooms in Africa, etcetera. 363 00:21:39,600 --> 00:21:41,640 In India. I got to go to the first 364 00:21:41,720 --> 00:21:44,880 mushroom festival in India. There's like they just did a 365 00:21:45,400 --> 00:21:49,040 survey of the mushroom landscape there and kind of counted a 366 00:21:49,040 --> 00:21:51,000 bunch of species in this one area. 367 00:21:51,360 --> 00:21:56,640 There's like 40 plus solosity species in India like across the 368 00:21:56,640 --> 00:22:00,760 subcon, and that's just based on a few surveys and people are 369 00:22:00,760 --> 00:22:03,520 finding new ones all the time. So that's one that comes up. 370 00:22:03,720 --> 00:22:07,000 But I think more broadly than just like tripping on mushrooms, 371 00:22:07,160 --> 00:22:12,200 there's a lot of potential uses for like bio materials for kind 372 00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:15,520 of advanced technology, things like mycotexture. 373 00:22:15,520 --> 00:22:19,440 People are building houses out of mushrooms, tiny houses using 374 00:22:19,640 --> 00:22:23,560 mycelium and hemp composite materials and structural 375 00:22:23,560 --> 00:22:26,680 insulated panelling. You've got just the biggest 376 00:22:26,680 --> 00:22:30,840 companies in the world investing in fungi tech like NASA, IKEA, 377 00:22:31,160 --> 00:22:34,880 Dell, the US Department of Defense, Mercedes-Benz, 378 00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:38,960 Cadillac, the list goes on and on and on because there's a lot 379 00:22:38,960 --> 00:22:41,760 you can do with this material and we're just starting to 380 00:22:41,760 --> 00:22:44,640 scratch the surface of that. So there's off planet 381 00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:46,600 applications like Astro Mycology. 382 00:22:46,600 --> 00:22:49,960 Well, I was going to say because mushrooms can survive the the 383 00:22:49,960 --> 00:22:53,880 vacuum of space, right? Yeah, there was just an 384 00:22:53,880 --> 00:22:57,680 Australian company that grew mushrooms to feed a sub orbital 385 00:22:57,680 --> 00:23:01,000 space crew that they had. And that's part of what NASA has 386 00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:05,400 invested in is to do R&D about growing habitats basically. 387 00:23:05,400 --> 00:23:08,280 Because let's say you want to put a base on the moon or on 388 00:23:08,280 --> 00:23:12,480 Mars or whatever, thinking long term, what are you going to like 389 00:23:12,520 --> 00:23:14,720 transport a bunch of heavy materials up there? 390 00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:18,800 Or you could potentially grow the habitats using some kind of 391 00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:22,600 byproduct, you know, and that's what translates, I think, to a 392 00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:24,800 lot of different marginalized cultures. 393 00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:28,280 Embracing the potential of mushrooms too, is that you can 394 00:23:28,280 --> 00:23:33,160 grow habitats, food, medicine, etcetera, out of the byproducts 395 00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:35,640 of waste, out of agricultural byproducts. 396 00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:38,960 So I'm going to Uganda in November, super pumped about it, 397 00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:42,480 and I'm going to participate in the third African Rising 398 00:23:42,480 --> 00:23:44,760 Mushroom Festival. And that's a whole community of 399 00:23:44,760 --> 00:23:48,400 people who have figured out how to grow mushrooms, oyster 400 00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:51,000 mushrooms, lion's meat. They're completely detached or 401 00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:53,640 separate from the whole, like psychedelic microdosing 402 00:23:53,640 --> 00:23:55,440 movement. And I think that's something 403 00:23:55,440 --> 00:23:59,160 that I wanna bring into this whole cultural phenomenon in the 404 00:23:59,160 --> 00:24:00,760 West. Like, people are so interested 405 00:24:00,760 --> 00:24:05,400 in tripping and psilocybin and microdosing, but to me, that's 406 00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:08,640 just sort of the gateway into the much broader potential of 407 00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:10,280 what you can actually do with mushrooms. 408 00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:13,960 And you really can cover the whole Maslow hierarchy of need. 409 00:24:13,960 --> 00:24:16,800 You can get food, medicine, shelter. 410 00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:19,480 There's people making clothes and materials. 411 00:24:19,760 --> 00:24:21,880 And so that's really where the whole kind of premise of 412 00:24:21,880 --> 00:24:26,040 mycopreneur comes from. It's not about this like Silicon 413 00:24:26,040 --> 00:24:29,720 Valley startup ethos and we're going to sell super exclusive 414 00:24:29,720 --> 00:24:34,280 expensive meat to Erawan. That's like 1 angle of it, but 415 00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:36,080 it's this. See right there, that was one of 416 00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:40,560 your skits, basically like that whole thing that that evolution 417 00:24:40,560 --> 00:24:43,840 of thought you just threw out there is kind of how I see you 418 00:24:43,840 --> 00:24:45,960 come up with the stuff. Because then you'll take that 419 00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:48,600 and turn that into a reality of like, that's how people are 420 00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:52,680 about it too in reality. And there you go, there's your 421 00:24:52,680 --> 00:24:55,800 satire. Oh dude, I get so many like Chat 422 00:24:55,840 --> 00:25:02,000 GPTPR pitches for the podcast of like our founder is a expert in 423 00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:04,320 psychedelics. They started micro dosing in 424 00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:08,760 2024 and now they're a keynote speaker and I'm just like you 425 00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:13,360 sent that to. 2000 they did mushrooms one time and became a 426 00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:14,320 shaman. He. 427 00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:17,520 Saw faces in the guacamole at the Super Bowl party. 428 00:25:21,120 --> 00:25:23,520 No, totally. I'm all about that. 429 00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:26,080 I like I said, I, I mean, part of me is jealous too. 430 00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:27,960 I see you. You're, I don't, I think you 431 00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:31,240 might travel more than anybody I've ever seen online. 432 00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:35,240 I mean, even like people that travel as their job, you travel 433 00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:38,120 a lot. So I grew up hosting exchange 434 00:25:38,120 --> 00:25:39,600 students. So I think that really kind of 435 00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:43,520 informed a sense of like the world was bigger than San Diego 436 00:25:43,520 --> 00:25:46,960 where where I grew up. And just over time, like I've 437 00:25:46,960 --> 00:25:48,560 kept in touch with a lot of people. 438 00:25:48,560 --> 00:25:51,240 I've been raised in a very international environment. 439 00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:54,920 I've worked my first like real job out of college was in Saudi 440 00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:57,440 Arabia. And everybody works in Saudi 441 00:25:57,440 --> 00:26:00,360 Arabia is there to make money and get the hell out of Saudi 442 00:26:00,360 --> 00:26:02,480 Arabia. So, you know, I got to travel 443 00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:06,560 all over the Middle East and Sri Lanka and Asia and West Africa 444 00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:11,480 and or East Africa. So, yeah, I mean, I think you 445 00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:14,600 just pick that up as time goes on and then it's a expensive 446 00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:16,120 habit. You know, some people are into 447 00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:20,480 cocaine and fine wine and I, I love to travel, but also those 448 00:26:20,480 --> 00:26:25,200 other two are great too. Nice actually, so we were just 449 00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:27,040 talking about like sacred uses and stuff. 450 00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:28,880 I just read. I don't know if you're familiar 451 00:26:28,880 --> 00:26:31,840 with Tom Lane, but he just wrote a new book called Sacred 452 00:26:31,840 --> 00:26:34,120 Mushroom Sorcery of Ancient Mexico. 453 00:26:34,960 --> 00:26:36,680 I was in contact with him. I'm trying to get him on. 454 00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:39,480 I don't know if we'll end up linking up, but I did do like 5 455 00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:42,560 episodes with them over the past. 456 00:26:43,040 --> 00:26:47,080 Yeah, probably the span of like a year early on and, and mind 457 00:26:47,080 --> 00:26:49,960 escapes evolution. And he took us through a lot of 458 00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:55,400 like the metaphysics and the way that the ancient people and the 459 00:26:55,400 --> 00:27:01,840 Maz attack and you know, Nawa and all those people interpret 460 00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:09,960 reality versus the Western idea of reality and you know, how the 461 00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:11,560 universe works and things like that. 462 00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:15,000 So I actually recommend checking that out if if anybody's 463 00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:16,240 interested in that kind of stuff. 464 00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:19,360 I just saw that he dropped that new book and it's very 465 00:27:19,360 --> 00:27:22,000 interesting to me because, you know, I grew up in the South of 466 00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:24,320 San Diego, 5-10 minutes from the border. 467 00:27:24,560 --> 00:27:27,880 So I've been coming down to Mexico for since like 1990. 468 00:27:27,880 --> 00:27:30,680 I was born in 89, so very, very young in my life. 469 00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:34,200 I would cross my church. I grew up and was very active on 470 00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:37,720 both sides of the border. And then as time went on, I just 471 00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:41,000 became increasingly interested in the other side of the border. 472 00:27:41,320 --> 00:27:44,520 And so I, I spent a good amount of the year down in Chiapas. 473 00:27:44,520 --> 00:27:48,000 And so everything Tom Lane was writing about, I've had some 474 00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:51,680 experience with some of the different traditional uses of 475 00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:53,760 mushrooms in the Mazatec culture, etcetera. 476 00:27:54,080 --> 00:27:57,480 And like I mentioned this week, we have a big mushroom festival 477 00:27:57,680 --> 00:28:00,400 that's exclusively focused on one mushroom called the Moni 478 00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:02,560 mushroom. It's edible. 479 00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:06,640 It's the Lactifluse chiapenensis, it's called, and 480 00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:11,240 it's a very important mushroom to the Chiapenekin people in the 481 00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:13,840 capital of Tutla Gutierrez and surrounding regions. 482 00:28:13,840 --> 00:28:17,440 So like that's kind of I tapped into that network of people and 483 00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:21,240 it's very interesting because it's ancestral knowledge, but 484 00:28:21,240 --> 00:28:25,120 with a homegrown crowd of scientists who can really 485 00:28:25,120 --> 00:28:29,880 understand like DNA bar coding, the morphology and the taxonomy 486 00:28:29,880 --> 00:28:33,000 and the Latin names. So once I kind of linked up with 487 00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:35,800 that group, I just opened the door to a lot of cool 488 00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:38,880 opportunities because there are a lot of these pockets of these 489 00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:42,680 homegrown people who recognize the cultural heritage and the 490 00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:45,320 importance of mushrooms, not just in Mexico, but like I 491 00:28:45,320 --> 00:28:49,400 mentioned in places like India, South Africa, Serbia. 492 00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:52,720 And it's wild, dude. You just, if you try to Google 493 00:28:52,720 --> 00:28:54,520 some of this knowledge, it's just not there. 494 00:28:54,600 --> 00:28:56,320 You know, there are. It's a lot of dude. 495 00:28:56,320 --> 00:28:59,200 I look at like Alan, Alan Rockefeller's posts and it's 496 00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:01,960 like he just picks something up and goes, this is what it is. 497 00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:05,080 Like how did you like, there's got to be, I mean, I don't even 498 00:29:05,080 --> 00:29:10,000 know how many species there are, but I mean, he, you watch his 499 00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:13,040 videos or like these things that he posts, he's like, how does he 500 00:29:13,040 --> 00:29:14,520 know that? And then he pulls out his like 501 00:29:14,520 --> 00:29:17,120 microscope and starts like analyzing these things. 502 00:29:17,120 --> 00:29:19,680 It's crazy. They're finding new mushrooms 503 00:29:19,680 --> 00:29:22,480 all the time, like Alan finds new mushrooms every time that we 504 00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:25,000 go out with the group fungaria that I've been working with. 505 00:29:25,280 --> 00:29:26,840 We find new mushrooms to science. 506 00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:29,840 And that's part of what drew me to spending time in this region 507 00:29:29,840 --> 00:29:34,800 is that there's an estimated 50,000 types of fungi in the 508 00:29:34,800 --> 00:29:37,680 state, and only 2% have been identified and described. 509 00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:41,360 But it really is that bridging of this sort of ancestral 510 00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:44,760 indigenous ancient knowledge with modern scientific rigor. 511 00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:46,800 And that gets so exciting because we'll be out there 512 00:29:46,800 --> 00:29:49,960 foraging and there will be someone who speaks Tozo, which 513 00:29:49,960 --> 00:29:52,960 is one of the Mayan demographics and languages here. 514 00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:55,360 And they'll say, oh, we have this word for this mushroom. 515 00:29:55,560 --> 00:29:58,840 And then the Mexicans, the Chupanekins I work with will be 516 00:29:58,840 --> 00:30:00,400 like, well, here's the Latin name for it. 517 00:30:00,560 --> 00:30:03,240 And then there will be like a white mycologist from the States 518 00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:04,400 would be like, here's what we call it. 519 00:30:04,560 --> 00:30:07,840 And to see that happen in real time and to have the traditions 520 00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:11,280 and the science all merge is just extremely exciting for a 521 00:30:11,280 --> 00:30:17,120 lot of reasons, I think. Oh yeah, that's awesome. 522 00:30:17,120 --> 00:30:21,360 Are there any differences you've noticed in terms of like how 523 00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:25,840 psychedelics are framed in the US versus internationally? 524 00:30:25,840 --> 00:30:29,840 I know obviously it's illegal in a lot of places, but places 525 00:30:29,840 --> 00:30:35,240 where it is part of their heritage or ceremonies and 526 00:30:35,240 --> 00:30:39,320 things like that, you know, how does how does it compare? 527 00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:42,640 And then how does it compare to, you know, in the US we don't 528 00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:48,000 really have, I mean, maybe Native American, obviously, but 529 00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:51,400 other than that in terms of like Western culture, I mean, it kind 530 00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:56,440 of died with the elucity and mysteries a long time ago, so. 531 00:30:57,520 --> 00:31:01,080 Yeah, it's huge, honestly, because like a lot of parts of 532 00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:03,480 the world that I've been fortunate to travel to and 533 00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:06,200 speaking from my experience in Mexico is like the idea of 534 00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:11,640 psychedelics and traditional metheno medicines are very 535 00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:14,720 different from each other. So I've heard Jonathan OTT talk 536 00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:16,680 about this personally. He's someone who was a 537 00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:19,920 inspiration to me and a lot of people, you know, for anyone 538 00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:22,520 who's unfamiliar. Yeah, RIP. 539 00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:26,880 He just passed away in August and I think, or July, he was 77. 540 00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:31,000 But he devoted his life to the study of entheogens. 541 00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:34,560 And he actually coined that term right as he helped coin the term 542 00:31:34,560 --> 00:31:40,080 entheogen, God containing plant. And so in Mexico, there's a 543 00:31:40,080 --> 00:31:44,400 tradition of mushroom use. But psychedelic is a Western 544 00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:45,920 word. They're very disconnected. 545 00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:49,800 Psychedelic was coined, I think, by Humphrey Osmond in the 1950s, 546 00:31:49,800 --> 00:31:53,600 as most people probably know. So even like thinking about the 547 00:31:53,600 --> 00:31:58,720 psychedelic 1st or the 1st wave in the West with like Tim Leary. 548 00:31:58,920 --> 00:32:02,000 Tim Leary had his first psychedelic experience in 549 00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:05,880 Cuernavaca, Mexico, and it was with psilocybin mushrooms and 550 00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:08,480 maybe 1955 somewhere around there. 551 00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:12,400 And they have a multi millennia year tradition around that. 552 00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:15,560 So like the whole like hype of psychedelics and all that. 553 00:32:15,560 --> 00:32:18,480 And granted, there are a lot of really interesting lab born 554 00:32:18,480 --> 00:32:22,400 psychedelics in the West and I'm a proponent or you know, a 555 00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:27,240 student if you will, of Shogun. So I also see the value of like 556 00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:31,440 a lot of these other research chemicals, some would call them, 557 00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:35,760 and things like 2 CB and MDMA and LSD, but those are very, 558 00:32:35,760 --> 00:32:38,680 very different than a lot of these traditions around 559 00:32:39,720 --> 00:32:43,120 mushrooms. Or like with the Taino people in 560 00:32:43,120 --> 00:32:46,840 the Caribbean region, apparently there's a rich history of DMT 561 00:32:46,840 --> 00:32:51,000 use of different snuffs. It's called Yopo, I believe in 562 00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:53,800 parts of South America, but I've been following some of the work 563 00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:57,560 of Manny Torres. I believe his name is Manny 564 00:32:57,560 --> 00:33:02,600 Torres and he studies the ancient use of DMT snuffs and 565 00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:06,320 it's Pan Caribbean tradition. But I think you kind of hear 566 00:33:06,320 --> 00:33:08,800 these things all over the world. There's different sacraments, 567 00:33:08,800 --> 00:33:12,400 different people. So how that gets squared away, I 568 00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:16,160 think with the whole idea of this psychedelic renaissance is 569 00:33:16,160 --> 00:33:19,480 very disconnected from a lot of the folk traditions. 570 00:33:20,040 --> 00:33:23,160 Of course there's overlap with it, but like I was mentioning 571 00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:27,040 earlier about the in Serbia, I was there last year and 572 00:33:27,040 --> 00:33:31,240 apparently there's healers or visionaries in the hills and 573 00:33:31,240 --> 00:33:35,680 remote areas of Serbia who still employ psilocybin mushrooms and 574 00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:38,400 there's a silocity Cerbica. It's like, where does that 575 00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:41,480 tradition come from? You know, So and then, you know, 576 00:33:41,480 --> 00:33:43,240 we can get into it. But the whole idea of like 577 00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:46,960 framing this in a very individualized, pathologized 578 00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:50,080 way, which is very much what this kind of psychedelic 579 00:33:50,080 --> 00:33:54,520 renaissance tries to do is say like psilocybin and DMT for PTSD 580 00:33:54,520 --> 00:33:57,280 and depression. To me, that's just such a modern 581 00:33:57,440 --> 00:34:01,760 construct and it's really pathologizing something a little 582 00:34:01,760 --> 00:34:05,640 bit more broad and a lot more broad, honestly. 583 00:34:07,040 --> 00:34:09,360 But that's where we are. So that's where the satire comes 584 00:34:09,360 --> 00:34:12,360 in is because I also get to have a foot in that world. 585 00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:16,320 You know, I, I had no idea about this whole psychedelic industry. 586 00:34:16,600 --> 00:34:19,080 And then all the sudden I started getting invited to 587 00:34:19,080 --> 00:34:21,000 things and I started getting invited. 588 00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:23,400 Like, you know, there's been people who say, Hey, we want you 589 00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:25,199 on the board of directors for this company. 590 00:34:25,199 --> 00:34:27,440 And I'm like, you're probably not going to like what I have to 591 00:34:27,440 --> 00:34:30,400 say, but that's what I have a podcast, you know, you guys go 592 00:34:30,400 --> 00:34:31,719 ahead. And everyone's fired. 593 00:34:35,960 --> 00:34:40,000 I guess my question would be to, to follow up on that is, do you 594 00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:46,320 think since like the US is this big cultural melting pot and we 595 00:34:46,320 --> 00:34:49,600 don't really have this like anchored history other than the 596 00:34:49,600 --> 00:34:52,800 Native Americans, that the indigenous people that live in 597 00:34:52,800 --> 00:34:56,840 North America, Do you think that it it, it comes off as cheesy 598 00:34:56,840 --> 00:35:01,200 because there isn't those roots and it's not taken from a 599 00:35:01,200 --> 00:35:03,760 historical standpoint. Like does that make sense? 600 00:35:03,760 --> 00:35:07,880 Like, there's no planted roots of Western society within 601 00:35:07,880 --> 00:35:10,560 psychedelia. This is kind of like the closest 602 00:35:10,560 --> 00:35:16,960 we've been right now. But there's a cheese cheesiness 603 00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:19,600 to it, if that makes sense. And I'm not trying to like, 604 00:35:19,600 --> 00:35:22,160 disparage anybody, but it's just, do you? 605 00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:25,120 Do you get what I'm saying? Yeah, I get it in a big way. 606 00:35:25,120 --> 00:35:27,680 And what I say is that there's a fair amount of people trying to 607 00:35:27,680 --> 00:35:30,360 build a culture on top of an old culture. 608 00:35:30,360 --> 00:35:33,440 Like it's something that goes back many, many years as the use 609 00:35:33,440 --> 00:35:37,080 of visionary plants and tools. But I've noticed this since 610 00:35:37,080 --> 00:35:40,720 getting inducted into this kind of psychedelic industry or 611 00:35:40,720 --> 00:35:44,440 conference circuit or whatever, where it's natural for the first 612 00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:47,080 part that people have an experience and then they want to 613 00:35:47,080 --> 00:35:49,280 be outspoken about it. I get that. 614 00:35:49,280 --> 00:35:52,440 Like, I mean, I, I start a fucking, I start a podcast 615 00:35:52,440 --> 00:35:54,680 because I want to share about my experiences, but. 616 00:35:54,920 --> 00:35:57,760 Well bro, you are allowed to swear. 617 00:35:58,360 --> 00:36:00,320 Great. I've just noticed people trying 618 00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:04,640 to build this culture on top of a much more ancient culture 619 00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:10,240 without really having the let's say like devotion or awareness 620 00:36:10,320 --> 00:36:12,640 of the through lines and a lot of the history. 621 00:36:12,880 --> 00:36:15,200 So that's what I'm trying to do is kind of like keep alive these 622 00:36:15,200 --> 00:36:17,720 different traditions. And it's part of why I've 623 00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:19,880 travelled all over the world to connect with people. 624 00:36:19,880 --> 00:36:24,720 Cuz I think people need to hear this broader context of how 625 00:36:24,720 --> 00:36:29,320 these traditions actually show up in different cultures versus 626 00:36:29,320 --> 00:36:33,800 this brand new thing that comes out with like where hey, I had a 627 00:36:33,800 --> 00:36:37,720 mushroom experience and then I hired APR team and now I have a 628 00:36:38,200 --> 00:36:42,200 six week program. I think, okay, there's value in 629 00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:46,360 people sharing the experiences, but I don't know if you were to 630 00:36:46,360 --> 00:36:50,400 come into music and then just completely disregard the last 631 00:36:50,600 --> 00:36:53,640 10,000 years of music and have no idea how to play an 632 00:36:53,640 --> 00:36:57,800 instrument and then say that you are like the peak of musical 633 00:36:57,800 --> 00:37:00,360 culture. I think there's a hubris in 634 00:37:00,360 --> 00:37:01,720 that. And I think it actually 635 00:37:01,720 --> 00:37:05,400 potentially does more of a disservice than a good. 636 00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:09,600 Is this idea of like, I don't care about the traditions or the 637 00:37:09,600 --> 00:37:12,040 giants whose shoulders I stand on. 638 00:37:12,640 --> 00:37:15,800 All I know is that I microdosed and now, you know, I, I pivoted 639 00:37:15,800 --> 00:37:18,360 in, I have some capital and we're going to launch this 640 00:37:18,360 --> 00:37:20,040 company. Like, first of all, put me on 641 00:37:20,040 --> 00:37:21,720 the board, I'll take some of your money. 642 00:37:21,920 --> 00:37:24,680 But second of all, like, I, I think that we really do need to 643 00:37:24,680 --> 00:37:27,160 pay homage and respect the different traditions. 644 00:37:27,320 --> 00:37:30,280 Doesn't mean that we have to just like borrow from them. 645 00:37:30,280 --> 00:37:33,120 Because for example, I've heard this analogy, which makes sense 646 00:37:33,120 --> 00:37:36,120 to me is like, and some indigenous cultures like 647 00:37:36,120 --> 00:37:40,640 Nawatol, I believe there was like human sacrifice with, with 648 00:37:40,640 --> 00:37:42,680 mushrooms. And so like we can evolve from 649 00:37:42,680 --> 00:37:44,240 that. I don't think we need to bring 650 00:37:44,240 --> 00:37:46,960 that in the 21st century. But at the same time, we don't 651 00:37:46,960 --> 00:37:50,160 need to completely disregard the fact that so many different 652 00:37:50,160 --> 00:37:55,360 cultures have really hard won and, and important and reverent 653 00:37:55,360 --> 00:38:00,920 tones about how they approach psychedelics or ethno medicines, 654 00:38:00,920 --> 00:38:03,280 if you will. So I'm very into the hybrid 655 00:38:03,280 --> 00:38:04,960 approach personally. And that's part of what I've 656 00:38:04,960 --> 00:38:07,160 been trying to do is like, I'm going to, you know, get 657 00:38:07,160 --> 00:38:09,000 different stakeholders at the table. 658 00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:12,160 I'll listen to the CEO and the guy who has the hedge fund or 659 00:38:12,160 --> 00:38:13,800 whatever. That's one perspective. 660 00:38:14,080 --> 00:38:16,840 But is that perspective more important than the 7th 661 00:38:16,840 --> 00:38:21,360 generation shaman or Taita who's been working with these for many 662 00:38:21,360 --> 00:38:23,360 generations? Like, I think there has to be 663 00:38:23,360 --> 00:38:27,200 some form of hybridization or else you just have this endless 664 00:38:27,200 --> 00:38:28,800 culture war. It's sort of where I'm at. 665 00:38:30,880 --> 00:38:32,640 Yeah, No, thanks for your take on that. 666 00:38:32,800 --> 00:38:37,480 You know, for me, I guess my real quick, my take is it's 667 00:38:37,480 --> 00:38:40,360 almost just like it's an obvious lack of knowledge. 668 00:38:40,600 --> 00:38:43,640 And for me, I'm trying to balance like, how do I come off 669 00:38:43,640 --> 00:38:45,240 when I'm talking to people about it? 670 00:38:46,040 --> 00:38:48,840 Not like a know it all or like a stuffy about it. 671 00:38:48,840 --> 00:38:52,120 But at the same time, it's like there should be a reverence. 672 00:38:52,120 --> 00:38:55,560 There should be, you know, if you want to do like you said, 673 00:38:55,560 --> 00:38:59,360 create a course or a podcast or whatever, like you have to be 674 00:38:59,360 --> 00:39:03,240 passionate about investigating the origins and the knowledge 675 00:39:03,240 --> 00:39:06,560 and everything. And I think it comes off pretty 676 00:39:06,560 --> 00:39:10,600 obvious to people that do put in the work and do know about these 677 00:39:10,600 --> 00:39:15,240 things when somebody doesn't and not necessarily grifting per SE, 678 00:39:15,240 --> 00:39:18,240 but like you said, it's just new and it's exciting and maybe 679 00:39:18,240 --> 00:39:22,960 they're not really thinking clearly long term about it kind 680 00:39:22,960 --> 00:39:25,880 of a thing. So I guess that's where I'm at 681 00:39:25,880 --> 00:39:28,440 with it. My thing is, I've, I've checked 682 00:39:28,440 --> 00:39:32,720 my own biases on these things and it's just as long as you get 683 00:39:32,720 --> 00:39:36,280 there. For me, it's like, I don't how, 684 00:39:36,280 --> 00:39:37,520 how long does it take or whatever. 685 00:39:37,520 --> 00:39:39,440 As long as you get there, as long as you're trying. 686 00:39:39,440 --> 00:39:42,560 If you're not, then what conversation are we even having 687 00:39:42,560 --> 00:39:43,760 on this topic? Right. 688 00:39:43,880 --> 00:39:48,080 So. Yeah, there's so many emerging 689 00:39:48,080 --> 00:39:52,000 categories around psychedelia that I'm very interested in, 690 00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:54,720 like DMTX. That's fascinating, right? 691 00:39:54,720 --> 00:39:58,520 The fact that you can go into these extended state DMT 692 00:39:58,520 --> 00:40:01,720 experiences and I've heard a few of the different people talk 693 00:40:01,720 --> 00:40:05,920 about him, like I was in Hungary 2 years in a row at Ozora and 694 00:40:05,920 --> 00:40:10,560 saw Carl, maybe Hayden is his name, I can't remember, but he's 695 00:40:10,560 --> 00:40:13,920 really into the DMT extended states. 696 00:40:13,960 --> 00:40:17,520 And so I gobbled that up and I'm like wow, that's fascinating. 697 00:40:17,520 --> 00:40:21,000 So also I think. It's really important to have a 698 00:40:21,000 --> 00:40:23,000 sense of humility, and that's where I try to come out this 699 00:40:23,000 --> 00:40:24,800 with and that's where the satire works really well. 700 00:40:24,800 --> 00:40:27,600 It's like, I'll often be like, I honestly have no idea. 701 00:40:27,720 --> 00:40:32,000 I'll say that I have my experiences, I have my biases. 702 00:40:32,000 --> 00:40:35,520 I think as much as people try to say that I'm I'm open minded, 703 00:40:35,520 --> 00:40:38,040 like we're all culturally conditioned and programmed. 704 00:40:38,400 --> 00:40:42,720 And I found that satire can be a great way of sort of taking the 705 00:40:42,720 --> 00:40:45,560 piss out of yourself, you know? And that's something I saw a lot 706 00:40:45,560 --> 00:40:49,040 and still see in psychedelia. Is this like, need to be right? 707 00:40:49,080 --> 00:40:51,400 Like I need to be right. I'm right. 708 00:40:51,560 --> 00:40:55,160 But it's like, what if there's a multiplicity of right answers? 709 00:40:55,160 --> 00:40:56,560 Like how do you square with that? 710 00:40:56,760 --> 00:41:00,480 What if you find out something on your next trip that just 711 00:41:00,480 --> 00:41:02,320 tells you you were wrong about everything else? 712 00:41:02,600 --> 00:41:05,600 And it's ironic to me that there's so much, there's a fair 713 00:41:05,600 --> 00:41:08,320 amount of close mindedness, I think, and psychedelia of like, 714 00:41:08,320 --> 00:41:10,440 this is the way to do it and this is how you do it. 715 00:41:10,440 --> 00:41:11,680 We're going to train people to do this. 716 00:41:11,680 --> 00:41:14,480 So I'm like, you should leave some room for the fact that 717 00:41:14,480 --> 00:41:16,320 like, maybe you're wrong. Maybe. 718 00:41:16,400 --> 00:41:18,800 I'm wrong. Yeah, that just comes across. 719 00:41:18,840 --> 00:41:23,600 I mean, that's just dog dogmatism regard like so as long 720 00:41:23,600 --> 00:41:27,240 as you're, I mean, my philosophy is always to have an evolving 721 00:41:27,240 --> 00:41:30,760 philosophy, meaning that if I tie myself to one thing that 722 00:41:30,760 --> 00:41:33,120 doesn't make any sense. We know science evolves, we know 723 00:41:33,120 --> 00:41:35,360 philosophy evolves. We know the mind and 724 00:41:35,360 --> 00:41:38,440 consciousness and our knowledge of what's going on is always 725 00:41:38,440 --> 00:41:40,480 evolving. So if you're going to die in a 726 00:41:40,480 --> 00:41:43,240 hill at this point, I guess you're not really thinking too 727 00:41:43,240 --> 00:41:47,320 deeply about things. However, I will say that there's 728 00:41:47,320 --> 00:41:51,760 a difference between like experiential stuff like gnosis, 729 00:41:51,760 --> 00:41:55,600 like first hand knowledge of these things and like you said, 730 00:41:55,600 --> 00:41:58,760 doing these compounds and experiencing these things 731 00:41:58,760 --> 00:42:01,120 yourself. But then also like historical 732 00:42:01,120 --> 00:42:03,880 context or scientific knowledge. And you know what I'm saying? 733 00:42:03,880 --> 00:42:06,880 Like there is a difference there where I would agree with you 734 00:42:07,360 --> 00:42:10,240 that each person's different. Let's keep some humility in 735 00:42:10,240 --> 00:42:13,080 terms of, you know, experiences and what people are 736 00:42:13,080 --> 00:42:16,120 experiencing. However, we know what this 737 00:42:16,120 --> 00:42:19,040 compound is and what it does to the human mind. 738 00:42:19,040 --> 00:42:21,200 And we know, you know, where it grows. 739 00:42:21,200 --> 00:42:23,800 We know what people have used it over. 740 00:42:23,800 --> 00:42:27,040 However, you know, roughly. We'll always learn more, but you 741 00:42:27,040 --> 00:42:30,960 get what I'm saying. Yeah, and I'm pretty interested 742 00:42:30,960 --> 00:42:34,920 in a lot of these lab chemicals, you know, like I have some, I 743 00:42:34,920 --> 00:42:40,240 think it's called Ald 52. That's a analog of LSD and it's 744 00:42:40,240 --> 00:42:43,880 fascinating. And you know, I, I used to be a 745 00:42:43,880 --> 00:42:47,560 little bit more on the side of like natural versus synthetic, 746 00:42:47,560 --> 00:42:50,560 but I've kind of come around that Ben, you know, like I think 747 00:42:50,920 --> 00:42:54,280 DMT is a fascinating chemical. Some of it's naturally 748 00:42:54,280 --> 00:42:56,200 extracted. You know, I'm not a, a 749 00:42:56,200 --> 00:43:00,360 neuropsychopharmacologist here, but having tried different 750 00:43:00,360 --> 00:43:04,040 things, like it's, it's a broader conversation now too. 751 00:43:04,040 --> 00:43:07,960 I mean, it's ever broadening about all of these emergent 752 00:43:07,960 --> 00:43:12,920 molecules and like I've been gifted some three MMC and things 753 00:43:12,920 --> 00:43:16,520 like that, you know, and some of these are becoming very popular, 754 00:43:16,520 --> 00:43:18,440 like 2 CB has become very popular. 755 00:43:18,520 --> 00:43:22,160 I'm so old school, I2 CB is the only one I recognize that you 756 00:43:22,160 --> 00:43:25,440 just said so. There's quite a few other ones 757 00:43:25,440 --> 00:43:26,520 and. I'm sure there are. 758 00:43:28,560 --> 00:43:31,760 Yeah. And I like I said, I am open 759 00:43:31,760 --> 00:43:35,400 minded. I'm interested but have to kind 760 00:43:35,400 --> 00:43:40,880 of pick my battles, if you will, because yeah, like LSD is 761 00:43:40,880 --> 00:43:45,760 awesome, but I can't be doing like 12 hour, 15 hour plus trips 762 00:43:45,760 --> 00:43:48,840 all the time, you know, So I'm sure somebody out there. 763 00:43:48,840 --> 00:43:51,800 Yeah, dude, you're a pops now. You don't have time for that one 764 00:43:51,800 --> 00:43:55,240 day when the the chickens flown the coop, you know that's the 765 00:43:55,240 --> 00:43:56,680 time to. Actually, you know, I get to 766 00:43:56,920 --> 00:43:58,680 travel like I mentioned. That's true. 767 00:43:58,680 --> 00:43:59,600 I forgot. Yeah. 768 00:43:59,600 --> 00:44:02,680 That's how it's, you know, like for example, I was like never 769 00:44:02,680 --> 00:44:05,440 interested in ketamine. And I always, always have to 770 00:44:05,440 --> 00:44:08,600 preface this by saying like do your own homework and be careful 771 00:44:08,600 --> 00:44:10,400 and know that. And I know myself. 772 00:44:10,400 --> 00:44:14,160 So like I haven't really done much ketamine, but I hit AK hole 773 00:44:14,160 --> 00:44:17,040 last year and I was, I was gifted some ketamine in Europe. 774 00:44:17,040 --> 00:44:21,000 It's really popular over in like England and Germany and places 775 00:44:21,000 --> 00:44:23,160 like that. And it was awesome, you know, so 776 00:44:23,160 --> 00:44:25,040 I get it. But also it's nice to be like, 777 00:44:25,120 --> 00:44:27,960 oh man, that was awesome. I probably should probably take 778 00:44:27,960 --> 00:44:30,560 a year off from doing it, you know, cuz it's really easy to 779 00:44:30,560 --> 00:44:31,840 get sucked into the other side of that. 780 00:44:31,840 --> 00:44:35,040 I've seen it happen too often. And at the end of the day, like 781 00:44:35,040 --> 00:44:36,960 I'm just stoked on the life I have. 782 00:44:36,960 --> 00:44:39,520 So you know, there's always a new thing. 783 00:44:39,520 --> 00:44:42,040 People wanting to mail me. Check out this product. 784 00:44:42,120 --> 00:44:45,680 Everybody has the best product. Have you ever noticed that this 785 00:44:45,680 --> 00:44:49,840 is 99.7% pure MDMA? It's pharmaceutical grade. 786 00:44:49,840 --> 00:44:52,080 It's like that's what the last guy said too. 787 00:44:52,080 --> 00:44:54,840 But you know, I usually find a good source and stick with it 788 00:44:54,840 --> 00:44:57,120 when I can. Nice. 789 00:44:57,240 --> 00:45:02,800 Yeah, I, I mean, I'm out of I'm out of the the game and that 790 00:45:02,840 --> 00:45:04,240 trying all the sorts of different stuff. 791 00:45:04,240 --> 00:45:07,200 There's just too much going out of my life right now. 792 00:45:07,200 --> 00:45:10,920 However, you know, there's always the future, you know, and 793 00:45:11,600 --> 00:45:15,560 old silly will always be there. You can always rely on old silly 794 00:45:16,200 --> 00:45:18,800 my. Favorite definitely my favorite 795 00:45:18,800 --> 00:45:21,440 and just works the best for me personally. 796 00:45:21,680 --> 00:45:23,440 Like some of the other things are just like, well, 797 00:45:23,440 --> 00:45:26,400 polypharmacy and all this. I'm just like, I'm not really 798 00:45:26,400 --> 00:45:29,640 tapped into the OR, I'm not really that interested in being 799 00:45:29,640 --> 00:45:33,600 part of the whole like festival polypharmacy culture and all 800 00:45:33,600 --> 00:45:36,640 that was like mushrooms. If I do them, I usually wake up 801 00:45:36,640 --> 00:45:39,200 feeling awesome the next day and I have a sense of purpose and 802 00:45:39,200 --> 00:45:41,320 motivation. That's enough for me if. 803 00:45:41,320 --> 00:45:44,040 You do a real macrodose too. To your point, you said you 804 00:45:44,040 --> 00:45:45,520 wanted to take a year off after the. 805 00:45:45,760 --> 00:45:50,760 If you have a real experience and from my 20 years of plus, 806 00:45:51,000 --> 00:45:55,360 you know, whatever doing this, if you have a real experience, 807 00:45:55,360 --> 00:45:58,760 you do not want to do it anytime soon because you want to process 808 00:45:58,760 --> 00:46:02,920 everything that just happened. And you know, I think if you do 809 00:46:02,920 --> 00:46:06,760 it too much, you lose that. I used to get this feeling not 810 00:46:06,760 --> 00:46:09,800 as much, you know, I haven't been as active lately, but like 811 00:46:10,080 --> 00:46:13,640 in the past, you know, my late 20s and early 30s especially, 812 00:46:13,920 --> 00:46:17,040 you took a macrodose. You're like, what did I just do 813 00:46:17,560 --> 00:46:20,040 right after you do it? And then you're, you know, then 814 00:46:20,040 --> 00:46:22,560 becomes great after. But there's that like initial 815 00:46:22,560 --> 00:46:24,960 feeling like after you do it. I always felt, I don't know if 816 00:46:24,960 --> 00:46:29,760 it was psychological or if other people feel that, but it's 817 00:46:29,760 --> 00:46:34,000 always this like instant dread or regret, but then it like 818 00:46:34,000 --> 00:46:37,560 fades off as you kind of come up and start having the experience. 819 00:46:38,360 --> 00:46:40,920 Well, I think that's also where running a business, having a 820 00:46:40,920 --> 00:46:44,320 family comes in because like those are so utterly fulfilling, 821 00:46:44,320 --> 00:46:47,040 as many people can attest to. And you really don't have time 822 00:46:47,040 --> 00:46:49,440 to be sleeping in. You can't be like, oh, I'm just 823 00:46:49,440 --> 00:46:51,320 going to sleep in till 2:00 PM today. 824 00:46:51,320 --> 00:46:54,560 It's like, no, the baby needs to wake up and he needs diapers 825 00:46:54,560 --> 00:46:57,560 changed and all that. So same thing with like I put 826 00:46:57,560 --> 00:47:00,120 out the podcast every Friday. I host an incubator every 827 00:47:00,120 --> 00:47:03,280 Thursday for the community, which is mushroom entrepreneurs 828 00:47:03,280 --> 00:47:05,680 to come together and connect and level up together. 829 00:47:05,960 --> 00:47:08,760 I do the newsletter on Thursday, and now I've, I did one on 830 00:47:08,760 --> 00:47:11,200 Tuesday. And sort of having that flow 831 00:47:11,680 --> 00:47:14,360 causes me and forces me to be like, you know what? 832 00:47:14,360 --> 00:47:15,960 I probably shouldn't do that tonight. 833 00:47:15,960 --> 00:47:17,560 You know, like I need to get a good night's sleep. 834 00:47:17,720 --> 00:47:19,960 I like to get up early. I like to get work done. 835 00:47:20,400 --> 00:47:22,960 And then there's your pockets, You know, there's times and 836 00:47:22,960 --> 00:47:25,280 places for everything. But like, I think you get to a 837 00:47:25,280 --> 00:47:28,000 certain point where you're just like, yeah, I'm good on that. 838 00:47:28,000 --> 00:47:30,840 Like I, I'm. Yeah, there's I've never gotten 839 00:47:30,840 --> 00:47:33,800 that vibe from you either. Like, and I like, I can tell 840 00:47:33,800 --> 00:47:37,520 you're very, you know, have your wits about everything and like 841 00:47:37,520 --> 00:47:39,840 there's some people you're talk to, like in these spaces, you 842 00:47:39,840 --> 00:47:41,320 know, like this person's degenerate. 843 00:47:41,320 --> 00:47:43,880 Like. You know, like, no offense, but 844 00:47:43,880 --> 00:47:47,520 like, I don't know how they're living life, you know, that way. 845 00:47:47,520 --> 00:47:50,280 But it's like the people you see on TV with all these reality 846 00:47:50,280 --> 00:47:53,120 shows, they're drinking, you know, they're in their 40s and 847 00:47:53,120 --> 00:47:57,080 they're hammering beers and alcohol like it's going out of 848 00:47:57,080 --> 00:48:00,000 style, you know, so, and actually I had to, I just read 849 00:48:00,000 --> 00:48:04,240 something alcohol uses way down, which is an interesting given 850 00:48:04,600 --> 00:48:07,400 cannabis and and psychedelics and everything like that. 851 00:48:07,400 --> 00:48:11,120 You have to wonder how much of that's kind of interfered with 852 00:48:11,120 --> 00:48:13,760 that. But I do want to touch it 853 00:48:13,760 --> 00:48:18,160 because we have mentioned satire a few times since it's like so 854 00:48:18,160 --> 00:48:21,280 important to kind of do what you do and it's so central. 855 00:48:21,560 --> 00:48:25,480 Do you think that humor is kind of like a powerful way to to 856 00:48:26,560 --> 00:48:30,600 talk about psychedelics and kind of disarm people and also bring, 857 00:48:31,280 --> 00:48:33,920 you know, awareness to these topics? 858 00:48:33,920 --> 00:48:36,640 Almost like making fun of something kind of takes its 859 00:48:36,640 --> 00:48:39,720 power away from being this like ostracized thing. 860 00:48:40,880 --> 00:48:44,760 Definitely, 100%. And I think that erring on the 861 00:48:44,760 --> 00:48:48,160 side of humor or satire is always gonna be the right way to 862 00:48:48,160 --> 00:48:51,600 do it because there's something about it, like what makes a good 863 00:48:51,600 --> 00:48:55,640 joke, what makes good satire? And there's so many cultural 864 00:48:55,640 --> 00:48:59,200 touch points that you have to have a familiarity with and 865 00:48:59,200 --> 00:49:02,440 being able to communicate about those in some ways, I think is 866 00:49:03,120 --> 00:49:07,040 like the what is the tribe? There's one the the weeks 867 00:49:07,040 --> 00:49:09,800 Carita, sorry, I live in Mexico. I don't know them. 868 00:49:09,800 --> 00:49:13,120 But the people who do the peyote pilgrimage, right, They talk 869 00:49:13,120 --> 00:49:16,760 about twisted words. They use twisted language and 870 00:49:16,760 --> 00:49:19,440 it's a way to communicate the ineffable, basically. 871 00:49:19,440 --> 00:49:24,600 So like if you go on the peyote pilgrimage, then you, for 872 00:49:24,600 --> 00:49:27,840 example, you're in the desert. They'll say the desert is now 873 00:49:27,840 --> 00:49:30,800 the ocean and you'll see cars and let's say cars are now 874 00:49:30,800 --> 00:49:32,840 ships. And essentially it's a way of 875 00:49:33,160 --> 00:49:36,960 reprogramming your mind linguistically to think about 876 00:49:36,960 --> 00:49:40,280 things paradoxically, metaphorically, kind of. 877 00:49:40,840 --> 00:49:43,080 And that's kind of how a trip goes for a lot of people is 878 00:49:43,080 --> 00:49:44,720 you're like, how do you explain this? 879 00:49:44,840 --> 00:49:47,160 You can't explain it in normal words. 880 00:49:47,360 --> 00:49:50,440 It's like, good luck with that. Good luck talking to someone 881 00:49:50,440 --> 00:49:52,720 about ADMT trip and try to explain it. 882 00:49:52,720 --> 00:49:55,720 As Terence McKenna said, it's unenglishable. 883 00:49:56,200 --> 00:49:59,200 Well, I think that the the missing piece there is with 884 00:49:59,200 --> 00:50:01,880 something like satire or humor, you know, you can find a way to 885 00:50:02,240 --> 00:50:04,760 make a joke about it and people can understand it and they'll be 886 00:50:04,760 --> 00:50:06,960 like, Oh yeah, I get that. And somebody mentioned that to 887 00:50:06,960 --> 00:50:09,920 me recently where they were like, you know, being able to do 888 00:50:09,920 --> 00:50:13,560 psychedelic comedy and do jokes about things like DMT and 889 00:50:13,560 --> 00:50:16,080 psilocybin. It shows how mature the 890 00:50:16,200 --> 00:50:18,080 ecosystem and the culture has gotten. 891 00:50:18,080 --> 00:50:22,280 Because if you were trying to do a stand up routine 15 years ago, 892 00:50:22,280 --> 00:50:24,880 20 years ago and you start talking about things like 893 00:50:24,880 --> 00:50:28,240 ibogaine or whatever and research with the military and 894 00:50:28,560 --> 00:50:31,480 DMT, people really aren't going to get it. 895 00:50:31,480 --> 00:50:33,880 But now the culture has evolved where people are like, oh, I 896 00:50:33,880 --> 00:50:37,080 know what micro dosing is. Oh, I've heard of iboga, I get 897 00:50:37,080 --> 00:50:39,600 it. And so I think like in terms of 898 00:50:39,600 --> 00:50:43,120 being able to communicate, the ineffable comedy and satire can 899 00:50:43,120 --> 00:50:46,320 do a great job at that. And like, I've heard even with 900 00:50:46,320 --> 00:50:50,520 the Boiti that there have been people saying that the role of a 901 00:50:51,960 --> 00:50:54,960 Iboga initiation is to be able to tell better jokes. 902 00:50:55,360 --> 00:50:57,920 You know, and you, you look at these different cultures, like 903 00:50:57,920 --> 00:51:00,360 my grandfather was a Christian pastor. 904 00:51:00,360 --> 00:51:04,760 He was a very devout, very on the other side of the 905 00:51:04,760 --> 00:51:07,000 psychedelic or drug culture divide. 906 00:51:07,320 --> 00:51:10,880 And he was someone who had a great sense of humor and an 907 00:51:10,880 --> 00:51:13,840 appreciation for that. And like, so you could be from 908 00:51:13,840 --> 00:51:15,760 anywhere. And if you can sit at the table 909 00:51:15,760 --> 00:51:19,680 with someone like that and have a a sense of jokes about it, 910 00:51:19,680 --> 00:51:22,560 like you can bridge the cultural divide. 911 00:51:22,560 --> 00:51:25,840 So I think that's what's happening or the potential 912 00:51:25,840 --> 00:51:28,840 exists there with something like satire and comedy to be like, 913 00:51:29,160 --> 00:51:32,360 OK, you know, like, I always think about people I've met on 914 00:51:32,360 --> 00:51:36,280 my travels, and some of them were just very funny and I 915 00:51:36,280 --> 00:51:37,720 hardly understood a word they said. 916 00:51:37,720 --> 00:51:41,320 There was a guy in northern Thailand who spoke super broken 917 00:51:41,320 --> 00:51:45,200 English, but he would laugh so much and he would just just had 918 00:51:45,200 --> 00:51:50,440 that way of cutting through all of the cultural familiarity or 919 00:51:50,440 --> 00:51:52,280 whatever where it's like, I don't understand this culture. 920 00:51:52,520 --> 00:51:54,560 Oh, I understand this guy. He's funny as hell. 921 00:51:54,560 --> 00:51:57,880 I'll take a shot with you. And then, you know, I in Saudi 922 00:51:57,880 --> 00:52:02,240 Arabia meeting people like that where if you can lean into humor 923 00:52:02,240 --> 00:52:05,600 and, and so as far as humor and satire, I think they're a little 924 00:52:05,600 --> 00:52:07,760 different, like stand up comedy versus satire. 925 00:52:08,120 --> 00:52:12,080 And, and what I like about satire is it's very vitriolic. 926 00:52:12,080 --> 00:52:14,480 It's very dark. And I think that's important. 927 00:52:14,480 --> 00:52:20,240 So like, it's something that sort of makes subject matter 928 00:52:20,240 --> 00:52:22,600 that's hard to broach. Are you really taking the piss 929 00:52:22,640 --> 00:52:24,960 out of it? You got to man, I look at 930 00:52:24,960 --> 00:52:27,680 someone like Anthony Bourdain like he's a satirist to me. 931 00:52:27,680 --> 00:52:30,880 You know, like you, you read Anthony's prose and his writing, 932 00:52:30,880 --> 00:52:34,560 It's like, oh, he's scathing. Like he's simultaneously at the 933 00:52:34,560 --> 00:52:38,440 peak of the restaurant industry and, and food culture and also 934 00:52:38,440 --> 00:52:42,200 just like so critical and taking the piss out of it and all this 935 00:52:42,200 --> 00:52:46,520 stuff like the celebrity of the cation of, of food, etcetera. 936 00:52:46,520 --> 00:52:49,280 And I think about like Hunter S Thompson, you know, like he's a 937 00:52:49,280 --> 00:52:51,360 satirist, right? Someone who you're like, if 938 00:52:51,360 --> 00:52:55,800 they're singular, they're able to bring this lens to the 939 00:52:55,800 --> 00:52:58,520 experience that makes you relatable, but they're also 940 00:52:58,520 --> 00:53:01,600 being incredibly critical of it. And I think there's a fair 941 00:53:01,600 --> 00:53:05,160 amount also, we live in a hyperpolarized society in time. 942 00:53:05,160 --> 00:53:08,840 So there's something about like when you're not actually pissed 943 00:53:08,840 --> 00:53:12,400 off at this person, it's like South Park style or whatever. 944 00:53:12,640 --> 00:53:15,880 There's a lot of value there. And I like that I've had to 945 00:53:15,880 --> 00:53:18,560 navigate that and be like, oh man, how do I approach this 946 00:53:18,560 --> 00:53:20,760 scenario? And especially as you kind of 947 00:53:20,760 --> 00:53:24,400 get more recognition, there's a lot of times when I'm like, man, 948 00:53:24,400 --> 00:53:28,440 I wanna say so much about this subject matter, but like you 949 00:53:28,440 --> 00:53:30,320 really have to nail it or else is bad. 950 00:53:30,320 --> 00:53:33,400 So like one of the first things that really put me on the radar 951 00:53:33,400 --> 00:53:37,360 more broadly speaking, honestly in 2022 is I went to Israel and 952 00:53:37,360 --> 00:53:41,520 Palestine and I was making like really far out over the top 953 00:53:41,520 --> 00:53:45,120 satire on the border and both sides of those countries. 954 00:53:45,360 --> 00:53:48,640 And and it was all very honest and it landed very well. 955 00:53:48,880 --> 00:53:52,560 And now I'm like, I wish I could kind of do that again, but like 956 00:53:52,840 --> 00:53:54,920 the there's that old saying like. 957 00:53:54,920 --> 00:53:56,920 The temperature's a little too hot right now. 958 00:53:57,160 --> 00:53:59,560 Well, you can't stand in the same river twice, you know, It's 959 00:53:59,600 --> 00:54:01,720 either a different river. Or Heraclitus. 960 00:54:01,720 --> 00:54:06,240 Yeah, you'll get Heraclitus. I mean, I think we need to use 961 00:54:06,240 --> 00:54:09,840 satire to really broach these hard to talk about subjects. 962 00:54:09,840 --> 00:54:12,560 And I have to a degree. And I, I have really, there was 963 00:54:12,560 --> 00:54:14,760 a point where I was just like, I'm just going to push this as 964 00:54:14,760 --> 00:54:17,560 far as it can go. And kind of the tagline I had 965 00:54:17,560 --> 00:54:19,520 was like, I mean, they're going to get cancelled. 966 00:54:19,520 --> 00:54:21,320 They're suicided by the globalists. 967 00:54:21,320 --> 00:54:24,080 And then, you know, it ended up becoming popular. 968 00:54:24,080 --> 00:54:25,520 So I'm like, what am I going to do now, Man? 969 00:54:25,520 --> 00:54:28,440 My, my life's too cushy. I can't be just taking blind 970 00:54:28,440 --> 00:54:30,680 gambles anymore. I get paid too much. 971 00:54:31,680 --> 00:54:34,600 Yeah, dude, you're you do do take some risks, especially in 972 00:54:34,600 --> 00:54:38,440 that Speedo of yours that that might get you in more trouble 973 00:54:38,440 --> 00:54:43,000 than your words one day. Especially once I get into flags 974 00:54:43,000 --> 00:54:46,920 dude I got like different flags speedos and they're just 975 00:54:46,920 --> 00:54:48,280 talking. About that's like a double, 976 00:54:48,280 --> 00:54:50,920 that's a double way, I mean. It, it is. 977 00:54:50,920 --> 00:54:53,480 And I was thinking about having like 1 flag on the front and one 978 00:54:53,480 --> 00:54:55,840 flag on the back. Like, you know, it's just like 979 00:54:56,080 --> 00:54:57,760 people are animals at the end of the day. 980 00:54:57,760 --> 00:55:00,240 Like there's definitely the whole spiritual component, but 981 00:55:00,440 --> 00:55:02,880 it's so easy to capture attention and. 982 00:55:03,120 --> 00:55:05,480 But I don't want to be pandered to the lowest common 983 00:55:05,480 --> 00:55:07,200 denominator. Like honestly, that's the other 984 00:55:07,200 --> 00:55:11,040 thing as a content creator, you know, it'd be so easy just to go 985 00:55:11,040 --> 00:55:15,200 into the most provocative thing you can do. 986 00:55:15,520 --> 00:55:17,960 But that's not my brand, dude. Like I think, yeah. 987 00:55:18,040 --> 00:55:20,680 People are doing that and people hate those people that that do 988 00:55:20,680 --> 00:55:23,200 do that. So and that's not even funny. 989 00:55:23,200 --> 00:55:26,920 It's just like, yeah, like you said, pandering to the lowest 990 00:55:26,920 --> 00:55:31,800 common or trolling to the highest, you know, degree or 991 00:55:31,800 --> 00:55:36,640 whatever. So have you ever gotten pushback 992 00:55:36,640 --> 00:55:40,120 from the psychedelic community for any of your satirical takes, 993 00:55:40,360 --> 00:55:43,400 whether it was over the top or somebody you offended somebody 994 00:55:43,400 --> 00:55:46,080 personally? You know, I, I, cuz I, I had 995 00:55:46,080 --> 00:55:48,560 this other guy on, he's a comedian, Dave Yates. 996 00:55:48,600 --> 00:55:52,360 And he does, he's out West, I think he's in LA and he does 997 00:55:52,360 --> 00:55:55,080 like fish and jam band jokes and stuff like that. 998 00:55:55,360 --> 00:55:59,000 And most of the jam band fans get it and they laugh along cuz 999 00:55:59,000 --> 00:56:01,480 it's like, you know, makes fun of the like wooks in the 1000 00:56:01,480 --> 00:56:03,200 community and everything like that. 1001 00:56:04,120 --> 00:56:07,920 And people like the Goose fans and they're so touchy and you 1002 00:56:07,920 --> 00:56:09,600 know, stuff like that. But. 1003 00:56:11,200 --> 00:56:13,040 Do you ever? Experience anything like that? 1004 00:56:13,040 --> 00:56:15,560 Because I, I think I've seen some stuff on Twitter maybe in 1005 00:56:15,560 --> 00:56:20,200 the past or Axe or whatever we're calling it now, but I was 1006 00:56:20,200 --> 00:56:22,680 just curious if anybody ever came at you with some heat for 1007 00:56:22,680 --> 00:56:26,560 anything that you made. I have had that happen before 1008 00:56:26,560 --> 00:56:28,640 and I think it's totally natural, But I guess the 1009 00:56:28,640 --> 00:56:31,840 difference between me and like, let's say other people is I'll, 1010 00:56:32,040 --> 00:56:34,520 I'll stand on it and I'll talk to people one-on-one. 1011 00:56:34,520 --> 00:56:36,680 Like I that I'm a community builder. 1012 00:56:36,680 --> 00:56:39,000 You know, I'm not interested in beefs. 1013 00:56:39,000 --> 00:56:42,600 Like people always try to come to me with this person said this 1014 00:56:42,600 --> 00:56:45,280 and this person did that. And I just feel like, especially 1015 00:56:45,280 --> 00:56:48,320 with something like satire, like it should be protected speech 1016 00:56:48,640 --> 00:56:51,760 and I make stuff every day. That's the thing people don't 1017 00:56:51,760 --> 00:56:55,720 get is like it's improv. I've made a 1000 plus videos, 1018 00:56:55,720 --> 00:56:58,840 you know, so like if someone's gonna cherry pick and be like 1019 00:56:58,840 --> 00:57:00,800 William, like this one, it's be like great. 1020 00:57:00,800 --> 00:57:04,400 I didn't hear you say anything about the 500 that everybody 1021 00:57:04,400 --> 00:57:05,080 liked. You did. 1022 00:57:05,080 --> 00:57:06,680 You sat on the sidelines for those. 1023 00:57:06,680 --> 00:57:09,080 But as soon as something crossed the line, you had a lot to say 1024 00:57:09,080 --> 00:57:11,240 about it. And that's worked very well for 1025 00:57:11,240 --> 00:57:12,720 me. I'm like, I'll just text people. 1026 00:57:12,720 --> 00:57:14,080 I'll be like, here's my number, dude. 1027 00:57:14,160 --> 00:57:16,480 Like so I ran into some stuff with symposia. 1028 00:57:16,520 --> 00:57:18,720 You know who hasn't with their organization? 1029 00:57:18,720 --> 00:57:20,720 And I'm like, I'm good. Friends, they still around? 1030 00:57:20,720 --> 00:57:24,560 I feel like they've disappeared. Yeah, I mean, you know, I'm not 1031 00:57:24,560 --> 00:57:27,360 going to comment on it too broadly, but I will say that 1032 00:57:27,640 --> 00:57:30,000 I'll stand on it whenever, you know, because at the end of the 1033 00:57:30,000 --> 00:57:31,680 day, it's your intent and what you're doing. 1034 00:57:31,920 --> 00:57:35,440 And if we're going to start like picking out microaggressions 1035 00:57:35,440 --> 00:57:37,560 over something or interpretations, it's like, 1036 00:57:37,840 --> 00:57:39,480 great. You know, like I, I host a 1037 00:57:39,520 --> 00:57:42,400 incubator every Thursday. I've been doing it for over a 1038 00:57:42,400 --> 00:57:44,600 year at this point, and we've built a community in the 1039 00:57:44,600 --> 00:57:47,160 thousands. And like, it's shocking. 1040 00:57:47,160 --> 00:57:50,440 That's people, you know, who have these fake screen names. 1041 00:57:50,440 --> 00:57:53,400 And I'm not addressing symposia specifically here, but like some 1042 00:57:53,400 --> 00:57:57,160 of the other organizations, like there were all of these faceless 1043 00:57:57,160 --> 00:57:59,040 accounts. And I'm like, you're gonna hide 1044 00:57:59,040 --> 00:58:03,360 behind a keyboard and like, parrot things that I said six 1045 00:58:03,360 --> 00:58:05,200 months ago or whatever. Be my guest. 1046 00:58:05,200 --> 00:58:07,960 Let me ask you this though with the symposia stuff. 1047 00:58:07,960 --> 00:58:13,160 So without getting too weird, it seemed like they were around 1048 00:58:13,160 --> 00:58:17,160 until they accomplished this mission of tanking those trials 1049 00:58:17,560 --> 00:58:23,560 and then it just disappeared. I mean, what do you think or do? 1050 00:58:23,560 --> 00:58:26,280 You there's a lot, there's a lot to be said for all of that. 1051 00:58:26,280 --> 00:58:28,560 But like I mentioned, like someone like Mache, you know, 1052 00:58:28,560 --> 00:58:31,040 she's probably the focal point, a big voice there. 1053 00:58:31,040 --> 00:58:33,640 And like, I know her personally and I've spent time with her in 1054 00:58:33,640 --> 00:58:37,200 at least three countries. And I will communicate directly 1055 00:58:37,400 --> 00:58:39,800 with anybody. Somebody has a criticism like 1056 00:58:39,800 --> 00:58:42,920 bring it publicly A and then be ready to stand on it. 1057 00:58:42,920 --> 00:58:45,840 And then also I'll text you and we'll, we'll call, we'll figure 1058 00:58:45,840 --> 00:58:49,920 this out, dude, because I think, you know, people have these high 1059 00:58:49,920 --> 00:58:53,040 gloss sense of exactly who they are and where they stand and all 1060 00:58:53,040 --> 00:58:54,640 that. And it's like, great, Well, why 1061 00:58:54,640 --> 00:58:57,280 don't we talk about this one-on-one diplomatically? 1062 00:58:57,520 --> 00:59:00,080 And I think that's what's been lost with a lot of the public 1063 00:59:00,080 --> 00:59:02,920 sphere as diplomacy. And I've always said like, 1064 00:59:02,920 --> 00:59:04,960 great, like, why don't we just talk about this one-on-one, 1065 00:59:04,960 --> 00:59:07,280 whoever it is and, and then we handle it and we move on. 1066 00:59:07,280 --> 00:59:10,800 And sometimes am I perfect? No, sometimes, dude, I had so 1067 00:59:10,800 --> 00:59:12,560 much going on. Like I said, I just had a kid, 1068 00:59:12,800 --> 00:59:14,720 you know, I'm running my own business, dude. 1069 00:59:14,720 --> 00:59:16,920 I don't have a cushy academic salary. 1070 00:59:16,920 --> 00:59:22,360 I don't have a funder, you know, I I run all my deals one-on-one 1071 00:59:22,360 --> 00:59:24,480 with people like yourself and people like. 1072 00:59:25,080 --> 00:59:27,800 So if somebody it just to me, there's there's a sense of 1073 00:59:27,800 --> 00:59:30,440 hubris of like that the ideology. 1074 00:59:30,440 --> 00:59:32,200 It's like this is how things should be. 1075 00:59:32,200 --> 00:59:35,360 There's sort of like idealism and then a pragmatism. 1076 00:59:35,560 --> 00:59:37,400 And I live in a pragmatic world, dude. 1077 00:59:37,400 --> 00:59:40,240 I live in a world like, you know, I mentioned this earlier, 1078 00:59:40,240 --> 00:59:42,040 like I've worked all over the world. 1079 00:59:42,040 --> 00:59:44,960 I've traveled all over the world and I do that constantly. 1080 00:59:44,960 --> 00:59:47,960 Like I this year I've got, you know, I'm headed out to 1081 00:59:47,960 --> 00:59:51,760 Switzerland and then I've got Tunisia, I've got Uganda. 1082 00:59:52,560 --> 00:59:54,080 I spend most of my time in Mexico. 1083 00:59:54,080 --> 00:59:56,640 I'm producing a huge event here. It's like somebody wants to be 1084 00:59:56,640 --> 00:59:59,960 critical about some take I had. It's like, well, great, you 1085 00:59:59,960 --> 01:00:01,560 didn't say anything about the event. 1086 01:00:01,560 --> 01:00:05,880 I financed and worked from the ground roots at their request 1087 01:00:05,880 --> 01:00:08,880 here in Chiapas, Mexico, which is the most abjectly 1088 01:00:08,880 --> 01:00:12,120 impoverished state of Mexico. So, you know, I'm willing, I'm 1089 01:00:12,120 --> 01:00:16,960 willing to take that on wherever and I'm not seeking any 1090 01:00:16,960 --> 01:00:19,800 altercation. And I actually have grown and 1091 01:00:19,800 --> 01:00:21,960 learned a lot from those experiences because what I 1092 01:00:21,960 --> 01:00:25,000 learned. Is that the more public you are, 1093 01:00:25,000 --> 01:00:27,800 the more your work is received? Whatever you're doing, you're 1094 01:00:27,800 --> 01:00:30,120 going to have criticism, you're going to have haters, you're 1095 01:00:30,120 --> 01:00:32,440 going to have push back. And that's actually natural. 1096 01:00:32,440 --> 01:00:36,280 So like, I just did a whole video ripping burners. 1097 01:00:36,280 --> 01:00:38,480 You know, I think Burning Man personally, I've never been, 1098 01:00:38,560 --> 01:00:41,560 I've been invited. It just seems very pretentious 1099 01:00:41,560 --> 01:00:44,720 to me and I've you know when. Somebody died this year, right? 1100 01:00:44,760 --> 01:00:48,400 Or was found. I, I, OK, great. 1101 01:00:48,400 --> 01:00:51,160 I would love to go if somebody wants to pay for me to go out 1102 01:00:51,160 --> 01:00:53,680 there. And but even then it's just, to 1103 01:00:53,680 --> 01:00:57,520 me, it seems like the spirit of what it was formed as and this 1104 01:00:57,520 --> 01:01:01,080 whole idea of like a social experiment and we don't have 1105 01:01:01,080 --> 01:01:03,480 capital and all that. It's completely mutated away 1106 01:01:03,480 --> 01:01:05,440 from that. And I, I think Silicon Valley, 1107 01:01:05,440 --> 01:01:07,560 the same thing happened. Like the origins of a lot of 1108 01:01:07,560 --> 01:01:10,520 Silicon Valley was about innovation, connecting people, 1109 01:01:10,520 --> 01:01:13,240 helping people. It's turned into like SAS 1110 01:01:13,240 --> 01:01:16,680 platform Bros trying to cash out and like here, you know, it's 1111 01:01:16,680 --> 01:01:18,760 not about innovation anymore. It's about trying to get 1112 01:01:18,760 --> 01:01:22,080 acquired and trying to build for money. 1113 01:01:22,080 --> 01:01:26,400 And a lot of the architects of Web 2.0 or earlier and the whole 1114 01:01:26,480 --> 01:01:28,280 electronic link, it's the same thing. 1115 01:01:28,280 --> 01:01:30,640 Going back to what I said about psychedelics, it's like people 1116 01:01:30,640 --> 01:01:34,880 are uninterested in the broader potential social agendas and the 1117 01:01:35,080 --> 01:01:39,080 decentralization and the the, the personable connections with 1118 01:01:39,080 --> 01:01:41,680 your community and more interested in like, how can I 1119 01:01:41,680 --> 01:01:43,520 make a trillion dollars right now? 1120 01:01:43,520 --> 01:01:47,200 So point being that I just like, I love to satirize Burning Man. 1121 01:01:47,320 --> 01:01:49,080 I would go. I'm not like I don't have a 1122 01:01:49,080 --> 01:01:51,000 vendetta against Burning Man dude, it looks it. 1123 01:01:51,080 --> 01:01:53,080 Looks terrible bro. It looks. 1124 01:01:53,120 --> 01:01:56,640 It's such low hanging fruit to make fun of and then a bunch of 1125 01:01:56,640 --> 01:01:59,760 burners get super butt hurt over this thing that I don't even 1126 01:01:59,760 --> 01:02:02,800 script them is the other thing. It's like I literally do improv. 1127 01:02:02,840 --> 01:02:04,840 I'll I'll get up. I'll be like I'm gonna make a 1128 01:02:04,840 --> 01:02:06,760 one. It looks like psychedelic health 1129 01:02:06,840 --> 01:02:10,000 to me if I had to like I'm. Not personally interested in it 1130 01:02:10,000 --> 01:02:11,880 at all. If I had to think about like 1131 01:02:12,600 --> 01:02:18,120 what, like like Mad Max psychedelic hell, that's kind of 1132 01:02:18,120 --> 01:02:21,280 like beyond the Thunderdome or people are just riding these 1133 01:02:21,640 --> 01:02:25,880 spiked mobiles in in the desert, you know, on psychedelics. 1134 01:02:25,880 --> 01:02:28,000 And I don't know, man. I'm not trying to. 1135 01:02:28,240 --> 01:02:29,800 I'm not trying to touch it. Like. 1136 01:02:30,000 --> 01:02:34,240 Do whatever makes you happy, but to me, yeah, to me it looks 1137 01:02:34,240 --> 01:02:35,400 terrible. So. 1138 01:02:36,280 --> 01:02:38,440 Well, that's, that's it. It's like, I don't actually 1139 01:02:38,440 --> 01:02:41,080 think about Burning Man ever. But when it's Burning Man, it's 1140 01:02:41,080 --> 01:02:45,040 like, oh, this is such easy material to satirize right now 1141 01:02:45,320 --> 01:02:48,880 And, and I do and it, it always lands and people like it. 1142 01:02:48,880 --> 01:02:52,240 But then inevitably you get the pushback would be like, you, you 1143 01:02:52,240 --> 01:02:55,080 don't understand Burning Man. We have 10 principles. 1144 01:02:55,080 --> 01:02:57,840 I'm like, it sounds culty, bro, but all right, I'm gonna, I'm 1145 01:02:57,840 --> 01:03:00,160 gonna not stop making fun of. You, I don't know anything about 1146 01:03:00,160 --> 01:03:02,240 that. I'm just saying specifically 1147 01:03:02,240 --> 01:03:05,880 aesthetics and what I like to experience when I'm trying, you 1148 01:03:05,880 --> 01:03:09,040 know, whatever. I like to meditate, I like to 1149 01:03:09,040 --> 01:03:13,240 learn things, I like to dig deep within myself. 1150 01:03:13,240 --> 01:03:15,720 I don't know how any of that's happening there, but whatever. 1151 01:03:15,720 --> 01:03:17,800 To each their own. If that works for somebody, 1152 01:03:18,360 --> 01:03:22,560 kudos. Let's pivot here. 1153 01:03:22,560 --> 01:03:25,320 Moving. So like, what do you think is 1154 01:03:25,320 --> 01:03:29,680 the most misunderstood idea about psychedelics and in like 1155 01:03:29,680 --> 01:03:33,000 the mainstream culture and purview right now? 1156 01:03:33,040 --> 01:03:36,200 A lot of. New culture building on top of 1157 01:03:36,200 --> 01:03:38,760 these kind of ancient cultures, if you will. 1158 01:03:39,080 --> 01:03:43,080 And so like, I see it all the time and I love to satirize. 1159 01:03:43,080 --> 01:03:45,400 And again, I'm friends with a lot of these people and I also 1160 01:03:45,400 --> 01:03:48,640 benefit a lot from this emergent psychedelic industry. 1161 01:03:48,640 --> 01:03:52,320 Like I get tons of sponsorships and stuff and I'm thankful for 1162 01:03:52,320 --> 01:03:53,040 those. That's great. 1163 01:03:53,040 --> 01:03:55,920 But like, I'm gonna also speak my mind, I think, which is why 1164 01:03:56,440 --> 01:03:59,360 ironically, it's like people people say like man, can you do 1165 01:03:59,360 --> 01:04:02,680 a satirical video roasting my company and I'll pay for you. 1166 01:04:02,680 --> 01:04:05,440 I'm like, well, that's not the spirit, but yes, of course, yes. 1167 01:04:05,720 --> 01:04:10,840 So I think there's a lot happening right now with the 1168 01:04:10,840 --> 01:04:14,320 globalization of psychedelics and it it becomes again, a 1169 01:04:14,320 --> 01:04:17,000 diplomacy initiative for me because there's definitely 1170 01:04:17,000 --> 01:04:20,520 people invested in trying to gatekeep and patent. 1171 01:04:20,640 --> 01:04:22,760 And there's an argument to be made for that for sure. 1172 01:04:22,760 --> 01:04:26,400 Like about do you just want like rampant psychedelic use among 1173 01:04:26,400 --> 01:04:28,280 everyone? Like I think in most cultures, 1174 01:04:28,560 --> 01:04:30,560 it's not something that's normalized. 1175 01:04:30,560 --> 01:04:33,120 Like it's not a normal thing to be promoting. 1176 01:04:33,120 --> 01:04:35,960 Like you should just be doing all these psychedelic drugs all 1177 01:04:35,960 --> 01:04:38,400 the time. At the same time, I'm a 1178 01:04:38,400 --> 01:04:41,000 cognitive libertarian. So I think like people should be 1179 01:04:41,000 --> 01:04:43,160 open to that. If if you want to do that, 1180 01:04:43,160 --> 01:04:45,520 that's great. But I'm kind of over this 1181 01:04:45,840 --> 01:04:48,800 endless spiritualization and searching. 1182 01:04:48,800 --> 01:04:51,080 You know, like I mentioned, I came around full circle. 1183 01:04:51,080 --> 01:04:54,920 I was fortunate to be from a very middle class family to go 1184 01:04:54,920 --> 01:04:57,000 to school and all that. And I got to a point where I was 1185 01:04:57,000 --> 01:05:00,800 like, do I really need to go to Peru and do another 5 ayahuasca 1186 01:05:00,800 --> 01:05:03,080 ceremonies? I went three years in a row and 1187 01:05:03,080 --> 01:05:04,920 I just saw like this. It's like a revolt. 1188 01:05:04,920 --> 01:05:07,800 Yes I do. No, that's. 1189 01:05:07,800 --> 01:05:09,360 You great. That's but like I. 1190 01:05:09,360 --> 01:05:12,640 Got to a point where I'm like, you know, I have just so many 1191 01:05:12,640 --> 01:05:15,280 substances I mentioned that people want to share with me and 1192 01:05:15,280 --> 01:05:17,240 like there's a time and a place. So I'd be like, this is fun. 1193 01:05:17,240 --> 01:05:19,120 We're at The Flaming Lips concert. 1194 01:05:19,120 --> 01:05:21,960 Like I'll definitely do. That's really good MDMA and I 1195 01:05:21,960 --> 01:05:26,240 know you awesome, but like there's this, it's sort of a 1196 01:05:26,240 --> 01:05:29,240 I've heard it compared to which is an analogy that makes sense 1197 01:05:29,240 --> 01:05:31,920 to me. That's like a video game where 1198 01:05:31,960 --> 01:05:35,440 the more you go out, it's just like self generating. 1199 01:05:35,440 --> 01:05:39,280 So it's like, are you like on an infinite side quest right now or 1200 01:05:39,280 --> 01:05:42,560 are you like accomplishing what you set out to do and you're and 1201 01:05:42,560 --> 01:05:43,600 if you're enjoying, yeah, what is that? 1202 01:05:43,600 --> 01:05:46,080 Is that no man's land or what's that called? 1203 01:05:46,840 --> 01:05:49,160 There's a, there is a video game, but there is a video game 1204 01:05:49,160 --> 01:05:52,120 where it's like supposedly like infinite where you can like 1205 01:05:52,400 --> 01:05:54,680 there's infinite worlds you can discover or whatever. 1206 01:05:54,680 --> 01:05:56,720 I literally think I mean I there was a. 1207 01:05:58,080 --> 01:06:00,800 He called himself a shaman. He probably wasn't a shaman, but 1208 01:06:01,000 --> 01:06:04,040 maybe he was. But a guy in South America that 1209 01:06:04,040 --> 01:06:07,920 I had been to the the retreat center he owned back in like 1210 01:06:07,920 --> 01:06:10,360 2010. And this was prior to any 1211 01:06:10,360 --> 01:06:12,520 knowledge I had whatsoever about like that. 1212 01:06:12,520 --> 01:06:15,600 There was potentially a dark side to some of this stuff and I 1213 01:06:15,600 --> 01:06:18,920 just saw this individual and his circle get just like 1214 01:06:18,920 --> 01:06:22,080 progressively more unhinged. And then he ended up dying in 1215 01:06:22,080 --> 01:06:24,440 2012 under very mysterious circumstances. 1216 01:06:24,440 --> 01:06:26,320 But then all these allegations came out. 1217 01:06:26,520 --> 01:06:29,880 So there is very much like a, you know, the cult potential of 1218 01:06:29,880 --> 01:06:33,560 these things, which is obvious in hindsight, but I goody 2 1219 01:06:33,560 --> 01:06:36,840 shoes over here approach. This is like everybody's happy 1220 01:06:36,840 --> 01:06:39,120 and I want to make everybody happy and this is so good. 1221 01:06:39,360 --> 01:06:42,400 And I think, you know, it's all about your disposition and your 1222 01:06:42,400 --> 01:06:45,320 complexion. But we can't be naive that there 1223 01:06:45,320 --> 01:06:52,160 are the potential for like abuse and cult like God like figures 1224 01:06:52,160 --> 01:06:54,320 and all that to emerge well and it amplifies. 1225 01:06:54,320 --> 01:06:57,920 So if you're already into the. Occult stuff or cult or 1226 01:06:57,920 --> 01:07:01,560 whatever, it's just going to amplify that even further. 1227 01:07:01,560 --> 01:07:04,400 So maybe that even pushes somebody to take it to the next 1228 01:07:04,400 --> 01:07:10,480 level, you know, or gives them some sort of God complex sort of 1229 01:07:10,480 --> 01:07:12,440 a thing. I could totally see that 1230 01:07:12,440 --> 01:07:14,280 happening and obviously it has happened. 1231 01:07:14,280 --> 01:07:17,880 So yeah, I mean, that makes total sense. 1232 01:07:19,280 --> 01:07:23,840 Micro preneur ship suggests blending mushrooms in business. 1233 01:07:24,200 --> 01:07:29,880 Do you think psychedelics are changing the way people think 1234 01:07:29,880 --> 01:07:32,040 about business models and ethics and innovation? 1235 01:07:32,040 --> 01:07:35,520 Obviously you mentioned tech, CE, OS and obviously people have 1236 01:07:35,520 --> 01:07:38,520 been experimenting and stuff like that, but as it becomes 1237 01:07:38,520 --> 01:07:42,600 more mainstream, do you think it affects things in a positive 1238 01:07:42,600 --> 01:07:43,960 way? Let's say people are starting to 1239 01:07:43,960 --> 01:07:48,320 microdose, whatever. Where do you see? 1240 01:07:48,320 --> 01:07:50,280 What do you what do you see from that standpoint? 1241 01:07:50,280 --> 01:07:52,680 Of things. Yeah. 1242 01:07:52,680 --> 01:07:57,000 So I think. Mycopreneur is a portmanteau, 1243 01:07:57,000 --> 01:08:00,600 which is like Myco for mushrooms and preneur for building and 1244 01:08:00,600 --> 01:08:02,040 making things. And like, you know, I went to 1245 01:08:02,040 --> 01:08:05,080 school, as I mentioned, in San Francisco and was very connected 1246 01:08:05,320 --> 01:08:07,800 to the whole startup culture, Silicon Valley. 1247 01:08:07,800 --> 01:08:12,640 This was like 2007 to 2012. So I saw both sides of this 1248 01:08:12,640 --> 01:08:14,560 coin. I saw the side of like people 1249 01:08:14,560 --> 01:08:18,160 making really interesting valuable contributions to 1250 01:08:18,160 --> 01:08:20,720 society. And then I saw the other side of 1251 01:08:20,720 --> 01:08:25,399 like people just trying to capitalize and rent seek, I 1252 01:08:25,399 --> 01:08:27,319 guess is one word for things like that. 1253 01:08:27,680 --> 01:08:30,560 But I think in a lot of the world, entrepreneurship is the 1254 01:08:30,560 --> 01:08:32,359 only way. You literally don't have an 1255 01:08:32,359 --> 01:08:34,720 option. Like if you are born in certain 1256 01:08:34,720 --> 01:08:37,080 parts of the world and societies, like you kind of have 1257 01:08:37,080 --> 01:08:39,200 to be very entrepreneurial and hustle. 1258 01:08:39,399 --> 01:08:43,359 So I think the idea of a mycopreneur to me is it can be a 1259 01:08:43,359 --> 01:08:47,359 lot of things, but I'm really interested in how abjectly 1260 01:08:47,359 --> 01:08:53,120 impoverished, like marginalized communities can embrace mushroom 1261 01:08:53,120 --> 01:08:57,080 entrepreneurship to significantly and tangibly up 1262 01:08:57,080 --> 01:08:59,720 level their own lives individually and as a community. 1263 01:08:59,720 --> 01:09:05,800 So I mentioned I'm going out to Uganda and Hoima HOIMA, Uganda, 1264 01:09:06,080 --> 01:09:08,760 there's a community that has leaned into growing mushrooms. 1265 01:09:08,760 --> 01:09:10,760 It has nothing to do with psychedelic mushrooms. 1266 01:09:10,760 --> 01:09:15,359 You know, there are hundreds, I think thousands of medicinal and 1267 01:09:15,359 --> 01:09:18,680 edible mushrooms beyond, above and beyond psychedelics. 1268 01:09:18,680 --> 01:09:21,560 So if you learn how to grow oyster mushrooms, all the sudden 1269 01:09:21,560 --> 01:09:25,720 you have an affordable, clean and bankable source of protein 1270 01:09:25,720 --> 01:09:27,560 that you can share. It's almost like mana. 1271 01:09:27,560 --> 01:09:30,600 And there have been some speculations of that like mana 1272 01:09:30,600 --> 01:09:33,840 in the Bible. MANNA actually has the desert 1273 01:09:33,840 --> 01:09:37,760 truffle because there's a lot of both the Kalahari truffle and 1274 01:09:37,760 --> 01:09:40,399 sub-Saharan Africa. And then also there's a 1275 01:09:40,399 --> 01:09:44,520 Turfisiachi and North Africa and it goes all across the Arabian 1276 01:09:44,520 --> 01:09:47,040 Peninsula. And I believe even over in the 1277 01:09:47,160 --> 01:09:50,920 kind of Levant area that there are these truffles that people 1278 01:09:50,920 --> 01:09:54,160 can, yeah, they just grow and you eat them and the rains come 1279 01:09:54,160 --> 01:09:55,760 and all of a sudden you're in the middle of the desert and you 1280 01:09:55,760 --> 01:09:58,360 have a viable food source. And it's the same with mushrooms 1281 01:09:58,360 --> 01:10:00,800 Everywhere there's it's a sustainable micro economy. 1282 01:10:00,800 --> 01:10:04,200 So like if you're on the roadside in India and Kerala or 1283 01:10:04,200 --> 01:10:08,280 rural India, Goa, you'll see people selling mushrooms that 1284 01:10:08,280 --> 01:10:12,160 grew like the termiticitis mushrooms that grow over the 1285 01:10:12,240 --> 01:10:16,200 termite hills, they're edible. And you go to parts of Africa, 1286 01:10:16,200 --> 01:10:17,920 the same thing. You go to Mexico, the same 1287 01:10:17,920 --> 01:10:19,480 thing. I go to the open air markets 1288 01:10:19,480 --> 01:10:22,120 here and people are selling wild mushrooms. 1289 01:10:22,240 --> 01:10:25,040 So all the sudden it's like you have a sustainable micro 1290 01:10:25,040 --> 01:10:26,720 economy. What you don't sell, you can 1291 01:10:26,720 --> 01:10:29,600 eat, you can trade. And that's really to me the 1292 01:10:29,600 --> 01:10:33,240 whole object of mycopreneurship. And then you can level that up 1293 01:10:33,240 --> 01:10:36,240 and you'd be like, wait a minute, you can build a moon 1294 01:10:36,240 --> 01:10:39,120 habitat, something in 0 gravity out of mushrooms. 1295 01:10:39,120 --> 01:10:44,040 You can you can build the you can clean up plastic and 1296 01:10:44,040 --> 01:10:47,000 cigarette butts with mushrooms. There's 400 species of mushrooms 1297 01:10:47,000 --> 01:10:49,920 that eat plastic like hero diapers. 1298 01:10:49,920 --> 01:10:55,840 Hiro, that's a diaper that for sigmatic founder ESO the finish 1299 01:10:55,840 --> 01:10:58,040 guy. He is one of the Co founders of 1300 01:10:58,040 --> 01:11:00,160 this. And after the baby uses the 1301 01:11:00,160 --> 01:11:03,720 diaper, you throw this mushroom packet on it, a packet and it 1302 01:11:03,720 --> 01:11:07,280 will decompose right there. So something like mushroom or 1303 01:11:07,280 --> 01:11:11,600 sorry, diapers, 300,000 diapers per minute get put into 1304 01:11:11,600 --> 01:11:14,320 landfills. And these people have figured 1305 01:11:14,320 --> 01:11:17,400 out how to erase that trend essentially. 1306 01:11:17,400 --> 01:11:20,760 So like the Sky's the limit as far as I could, not even the 1307 01:11:20,760 --> 01:11:22,760 limit. And then we're just scratching 1308 01:11:22,760 --> 01:11:24,840 the surface on a lot of other things that can be done with 1309 01:11:24,840 --> 01:11:26,520 these. Can you see the screen right 1310 01:11:26,520 --> 01:11:27,880 now? Yeah, dude. 1311 01:11:27,880 --> 01:11:29,760 And I've spent time. In Egypt, and I've seen those 1312 01:11:29,760 --> 01:11:30,480 out there. What? 1313 01:11:30,480 --> 01:11:31,960 Do you, what do you think about that? 1314 01:11:31,960 --> 01:11:36,000 Doesn't that look like? Away and I, I think actually 1315 01:11:36,280 --> 01:11:38,800 I've mentioned this many times in Mind escape over the years, 1316 01:11:38,800 --> 01:11:41,760 we've done episodes on this like ancient psychedelic use and 1317 01:11:41,760 --> 01:11:43,080 speculation and things like that. 1318 01:11:43,360 --> 01:11:46,280 But I, I think Paul Stamets, the last time he was on Joe Rogan 1319 01:11:46,280 --> 01:11:48,560 actually had him pick pull up this picture. 1320 01:11:48,880 --> 01:11:50,680 What do you think? They're the one on the right. 1321 01:11:51,560 --> 01:11:55,880 That definitely looks like some sort of cultivation there. 1322 01:11:56,960 --> 01:12:00,000 Yeah, I'm a fan of Kalindi Iggy. And he talked a lot. 1323 01:12:00,000 --> 01:12:04,120 About like Kemet and the ancient civilizations of Africa, There's 1324 01:12:04,120 --> 01:12:07,960 no question that selosity mushrooms grow all over the 1325 01:12:07,960 --> 01:12:09,880 planet. And I think we've really just 1326 01:12:09,880 --> 01:12:11,520 started to scratch the surface of that. 1327 01:12:11,720 --> 01:12:15,640 So have they been used by different cultures throughout 1328 01:12:15,640 --> 01:12:18,240 time? There's a lot of anecdotal and 1329 01:12:18,240 --> 01:12:20,920 some hard science emerging about that. 1330 01:12:20,920 --> 01:12:22,520 Anecdotal evidence and hard science. 1331 01:12:22,800 --> 01:12:25,720 And I think what Paul actually said on that podcast, if I'm not 1332 01:12:25,720 --> 01:12:29,760 mistaken, is we really can't know currently about a lot of 1333 01:12:29,760 --> 01:12:33,840 these hypotheses. But we do have the hard science 1334 01:12:33,840 --> 01:12:37,280 now where we can substantiate things like there was a Johns 1335 01:12:37,280 --> 01:12:41,240 Hopkins religious study recently, right, 2016 or so, 1336 01:12:41,520 --> 01:12:45,520 where like imams, rabbis and priests were all given 1337 01:12:45,520 --> 01:12:47,480 mushrooms. And that something like 22 out 1338 01:12:47,480 --> 01:12:51,760 of 25 said that it amplified their ability to connect with 1339 01:12:51,760 --> 01:12:53,480 God. So like when you start putting 1340 01:12:53,480 --> 01:12:55,640 those things together, you're like, wait a minute, these 1341 01:12:55,640 --> 01:13:00,200 things are found and all over Africa, all over Australia, all 1342 01:13:00,200 --> 01:13:03,200 over Mexico, South America, pretty much the whole planet 1343 01:13:03,200 --> 01:13:04,920 except for Antarctica. Well, the early, yeah, the 1344 01:13:04,920 --> 01:13:07,000 earliest and kind of in that region. 1345 01:13:07,000 --> 01:13:13,040 Would be the Algerian to seal glyphs. 1346 01:13:13,040 --> 01:13:18,400 That's that's where you get that that mushroom bee looking shaman 1347 01:13:18,400 --> 01:13:22,400 guy that Terence McKenna or Terence McKenna use where you 1348 01:13:22,400 --> 01:13:23,800 know, do you get, you know what I'm saying? 1349 01:13:23,800 --> 01:13:25,120 I think I might have an image of that. 1350 01:13:25,120 --> 01:13:26,560 Yeah. Yeah, I know the exact figure. 1351 01:13:26,840 --> 01:13:29,680 Yeah. I actually will be adjacent to 1352 01:13:29,680 --> 01:13:32,160 Algeria, so I might. Try to go, I don't even know if 1353 01:13:32,160 --> 01:13:35,200 you can go to see this figure, but like I mentioned, I'll be in 1354 01:13:35,200 --> 01:13:38,320 Tunisia in December and I've already looked at me like how 1355 01:13:38,320 --> 01:13:39,760 hard would it be to go see this thing? 1356 01:13:39,760 --> 01:13:43,320 I think it'd be really cool, yeah. 1357 01:13:43,320 --> 01:13:46,600 There's also a cave. In Spain called Salva Pasquala, 1358 01:13:46,600 --> 01:13:48,240 I've pulled it up many times before too. 1359 01:13:48,240 --> 01:13:52,040 And there's clearly an image of a cave painting of a bowl and 1360 01:13:52,040 --> 01:13:56,760 then what's known as Philosophy Hispanica down below. 1361 01:13:57,440 --> 01:14:02,040 So I mean, you know, it's like you said, it's been. 1362 01:14:02,040 --> 01:14:04,680 Used all over the world. Thousands and thousands of 1363 01:14:04,680 --> 01:14:06,480 years. I think the Algerian one's like 1364 01:14:06,480 --> 01:14:10,320 9000 years old and I think the Spanish one's like 6000 years 1365 01:14:10,360 --> 01:14:14,680 old or something like that. And so to me it's. 1366 01:14:14,760 --> 01:14:16,520 Ridiculous to think about like we're. 1367 01:14:16,520 --> 01:14:19,160 Going to ignore all of that we're not going to focus on 1368 01:14:19,160 --> 01:14:23,600 those things and we're just going to do patented micro doses 1369 01:14:23,600 --> 01:14:27,160 from a 4A CODMT. It's like OK, that has its place 1370 01:14:27,160 --> 01:14:29,440 for sure. I, I definitely I know people 1371 01:14:29,440 --> 01:14:31,960 who like research chemicals more than mushrooms. 1372 01:14:31,960 --> 01:14:35,080 They think they're more predictable or controllable, but 1373 01:14:35,080 --> 01:14:39,000 it's like I'm personally really interested in these ancient 1374 01:14:39,200 --> 01:14:42,640 through lines to Lord knows what they actually are. 1375 01:14:42,640 --> 01:14:45,440 But in my life they've been pretty beneficial honestly over 1376 01:14:45,440 --> 01:14:48,720 the last 20 years or so. Here's real quick, just so 1377 01:14:48,720 --> 01:14:50,120 people have reference, this is the other. 1378 01:14:50,120 --> 01:14:52,960 One I was talking about in Spain, you see the bull up there 1379 01:14:52,960 --> 01:14:56,600 in the left hand corner and the Salosa be down there in the 1380 01:14:56,600 --> 01:14:59,160 right corner. Well, and since you're bringing 1381 01:14:59,160 --> 01:15:00,720 up the images, I got a shout out. 1382 01:15:00,720 --> 01:15:04,200 Colin Clark, who's ecnomycologist in South Africa 1383 01:15:04,560 --> 01:15:08,200 and he's been on the podcast Mycopreneur and he's contributed 1384 01:15:08,200 --> 01:15:11,120 a few new species, quote UN quote, to science. 1385 01:15:11,120 --> 01:15:13,080 They're old to indigenous, but new to science. 1386 01:15:13,080 --> 01:15:17,080 But he has analyzed over 300 cave paintings across South 1387 01:15:17,080 --> 01:15:22,160 Africa and Lesotho, Lesotho, who and has been able to just like 1388 01:15:22,160 --> 01:15:24,920 the one you showed, they're very clearly mushrooms, like it's 1389 01:15:25,080 --> 01:15:29,200 people dancing around mushrooms. It's it's like the bee figure in 1390 01:15:29,200 --> 01:15:31,640 The Cave. And that's his hypothesis. 1391 01:15:31,760 --> 01:15:35,000 But not just that they have The Cave paintings, but that there 1392 01:15:35,000 --> 01:15:39,240 are these different diviners and healers who have shared in South 1393 01:15:39,240 --> 01:15:43,280 Africa that they have knowledge about this and that now is when 1394 01:15:43,280 --> 01:15:44,320 they want to share it with people. 1395 01:15:44,320 --> 01:15:46,920 And like this is a well documented, academically 1396 01:15:46,920 --> 01:15:51,120 substantiated, for whatever it's worth, emerging science because 1397 01:15:51,120 --> 01:15:54,560 for years people would be like, there's no record of use. 1398 01:15:54,880 --> 01:15:57,200 It's like, yeah, well, who's really asking? 1399 01:15:57,200 --> 01:15:59,400 You know, like you went down to the Mazitex and look what 1400 01:15:59,400 --> 01:16:01,960 happened there. Like Maria Sabina had her home 1401 01:16:01,960 --> 01:16:05,560 burned down and there, you know, was an influx of foreigners. 1402 01:16:05,560 --> 01:16:09,800 And then it wasn't even her consent that she shared to share 1403 01:16:09,800 --> 01:16:11,920 that whole story. And it was all done under false 1404 01:16:11,920 --> 01:16:15,240 pretenses to for Gordon Wasson to share that story with Life 1405 01:16:15,240 --> 01:16:18,040 magazine. So I do think there, there's a 1406 01:16:18,040 --> 01:16:20,960 fair amount of gatekeeping for probably pretty good reasons, 1407 01:16:20,960 --> 01:16:24,000 because people don't want their, they don't want to be have their 1408 01:16:24,000 --> 01:16:27,600 cultures ripped off and they don't wanna be subjected to 1409 01:16:27,600 --> 01:16:30,840 unnecessary harassment and random people coming in. 1410 01:16:30,960 --> 01:16:33,800 And this is something actually I've seen come up with some of 1411 01:16:33,800 --> 01:16:37,880 the ethnographic research around mushrooms is like Juliana 1412 01:16:37,880 --> 01:16:40,680 Furchi, who I'm a big fan of. She runs Fungi Foundation and 1413 01:16:40,680 --> 01:16:42,680 Chili. She goes all over the world and 1414 01:16:42,680 --> 01:16:46,040 documents Indigenous knowledge around mushrooms and she shared 1415 01:16:46,040 --> 01:16:48,640 that in some of the cultures, people don't want that knowledge 1416 01:16:48,640 --> 01:16:51,840 outside of their tight knit community because they say we're 1417 01:16:51,840 --> 01:16:55,200 not comfortable with. Next thing you know, we're gonna 1418 01:16:55,200 --> 01:16:58,800 be treated like these museum specimens and then the 1419 01:16:58,800 --> 01:17:01,560 government's gonna come in and then they're gonna do this, that 1420 01:17:01,560 --> 01:17:04,960 and the other. So it is that time I always 1421 01:17:04,960 --> 01:17:07,520 trace that back to that's where diplomacy comes in. 1422 01:17:07,520 --> 01:17:11,120 And I grew up in the kind of citizen diplomat community 1423 01:17:11,120 --> 01:17:12,880 hosting exchange students all over the world. 1424 01:17:13,120 --> 01:17:15,600 I found mushrooms then I found all over the world they have 1425 01:17:15,600 --> 01:17:17,280 traditions with mushrooms and psychedelics. 1426 01:17:17,280 --> 01:17:20,600 And I'm like, well, I don't have to be like a rocket scientist 1427 01:17:20,760 --> 01:17:25,880 explaining the academic and physiological aspects of these 1428 01:17:25,880 --> 01:17:28,040 things. Like, I can just make sure that 1429 01:17:28,040 --> 01:17:31,360 these different people feel comfortable and valued and that 1430 01:17:31,920 --> 01:17:34,040 I can contribute something here and connect. 1431 01:17:34,040 --> 01:17:37,160 Mushrooms grow everywhere. I mean like they literally grow. 1432 01:17:37,160 --> 01:17:40,040 Everywhere. So like to think that most 1433 01:17:40,040 --> 01:17:43,120 cultures haven't dabbled in what's around them for food 1434 01:17:43,120 --> 01:17:47,040 sources and maybe stumbled upon it or whatever, you know, is 1435 01:17:47,040 --> 01:17:52,000 kind of naive. There's like Gordon Wasson 1436 01:17:52,000 --> 01:17:54,960 actually did research all over. The world and he's primarily 1437 01:17:54,960 --> 01:17:58,560 known for kind of blowing the cover off Maria Sabina and the 1438 01:17:58,560 --> 01:18:01,200 Mazatecs and all that. But like, what I find 1439 01:18:01,200 --> 01:18:03,840 interesting is he has writings where he went to Borneo and 1440 01:18:03,840 --> 01:18:06,960 Papua New Guinea and he talks about mushroom traditions in 1441 01:18:06,960 --> 01:18:10,440 Borneo, but there's not a lot of elaboration on that. 1442 01:18:10,480 --> 01:18:15,040 And I, I've been to Borneo, I've not been to Papua New Guinea, 1443 01:18:15,040 --> 01:18:17,800 but it's high on my list. But there are native saucy 1444 01:18:17,800 --> 01:18:20,320 species that grow there. Of course, there's some 1445 01:18:20,320 --> 01:18:23,360 tradition. Maybe not every single tribe has 1446 01:18:23,360 --> 01:18:25,480 one. But if you look at the thousands 1447 01:18:25,480 --> 01:18:28,800 or 10s of thousands of ethnographic and indigenous 1448 01:18:28,800 --> 01:18:32,000 groups around the world, people have figured this out, as you 1449 01:18:32,000 --> 01:18:34,760 say, like they, they know literally every plant, every 1450 01:18:34,840 --> 01:18:37,000 animal, every fruit. How do they not know the 1451 01:18:37,000 --> 01:18:39,200 mushrooms? It's pretty obvious to me. 1452 01:18:39,320 --> 01:18:41,640 But whether or not they want to share that knowledge is a 1453 01:18:41,640 --> 01:18:43,840 different story. I mean, there is kind of a 1454 01:18:43,840 --> 01:18:50,480 balance though too I think. That apophenia and, you know, 1455 01:18:51,560 --> 01:18:56,400 bias and things like that kind of come into play. 1456 01:18:56,800 --> 01:19:01,680 Pareidolia, when you're looking at these things is I, while I 1457 01:19:02,400 --> 01:19:05,240 think that there's something with these older ones, there's 1458 01:19:05,240 --> 01:19:08,840 this like push for like Christian and sacred mushroom in 1459 01:19:08,840 --> 01:19:12,400 the cross and Amanita muscaria. I personally have read that 1460 01:19:12,400 --> 01:19:13,960 book. I've looked into all that stuff. 1461 01:19:13,960 --> 01:19:16,040 I know Joe Rogan repeats it like all the time. 1462 01:19:16,520 --> 01:19:19,720 I'm, I don't think that those are mushrooms and those 1463 01:19:19,720 --> 01:19:23,920 Christian reliefs that's they look like trees that were, you 1464 01:19:23,920 --> 01:19:27,640 know, and I think that who's, is it Tom Hatsis or somebody's 1465 01:19:27,640 --> 01:19:31,160 written about that kind of stuff too and actually doing the 1466 01:19:31,160 --> 01:19:34,880 research into it. So I think that while there is 1467 01:19:35,080 --> 01:19:38,800 roots in a lot of these ancient traditions and cave art and 1468 01:19:39,200 --> 01:19:42,080 things like that, I think that people are trying to now fit it 1469 01:19:42,080 --> 01:19:45,680 into other places where it's maybe not really there. 1470 01:19:45,720 --> 01:19:47,640 So I don't know if that makes sense. 1471 01:19:48,480 --> 01:19:50,640 It makes a lot of sense and I don't really have a strong 1472 01:19:50,640 --> 01:19:52,360 opinion. On all that, you know, I've not 1473 01:19:52,360 --> 01:19:56,640 even read John Allen or the Allegro book about sacred 1474 01:19:56,640 --> 01:19:59,320 mushroom in the cross. Like I grew up very Christian. 1475 01:19:59,600 --> 01:20:02,120 I think there's certainly some potential that there were 1476 01:20:02,120 --> 01:20:05,800 different plants used throughout history, but like I that's not 1477 01:20:05,800 --> 01:20:09,600 where I like hang my hat up. You know, I think if more 1478 01:20:09,880 --> 01:20:12,240 evidence or compelling stories emerges, great. 1479 01:20:12,240 --> 01:20:14,200 But again, I just well, it all hinges too. 1480 01:20:14,200 --> 01:20:16,280 I like not to cut you off, sorry, but it all kind. 1481 01:20:16,280 --> 01:20:21,320 Of hinges on this idea that like there's some lost amanita that 1482 01:20:21,520 --> 01:20:24,080 does something special that it doesn't do anymore. 1483 01:20:24,240 --> 01:20:27,840 Almost like this idea that Jesus was a special person and nobody 1484 01:20:27,840 --> 01:20:30,040 else has lived that same way since. 1485 01:20:30,040 --> 01:20:32,400 You get what I'm saying? It's like it's all dependent on 1486 01:20:32,400 --> 01:20:35,200 something that has happened but it will never happen again for 1487 01:20:35,200 --> 01:20:38,440 us to experience it kind of a thing, you know what I'm saying? 1488 01:20:38,440 --> 01:20:42,040 Like I've tried amanita, it definitely does something, but 1489 01:20:42,040 --> 01:20:45,440 not nearly what Solocity does in my opinion. 1490 01:20:45,440 --> 01:20:46,960 I don't know if you have any thoughts on that. 1491 01:20:47,720 --> 01:20:49,400 Yeah, that's a really interesting one. 1492 01:20:49,400 --> 01:20:53,320 And for me I've. Just kind of embraced Amanita 1493 01:20:53,320 --> 01:20:56,560 over the last year and part of it was a a sponsor shout out 1494 01:20:56,560 --> 01:21:00,040 Minnesota nice ethno botanicals and they have a bunch of Amanita 1495 01:21:00,040 --> 01:21:01,920 and they're like, we want you to try this. 1496 01:21:01,920 --> 01:21:06,080 Let us know what you think. And I had specifically for 1497 01:21:06,080 --> 01:21:08,440 dreams. I had some really enchanting 1498 01:21:08,440 --> 01:21:10,560 intense dreams. So but I've never like taken 1499 01:21:10,560 --> 01:21:13,560 Amanita in the daytime and even like philosophies. 1500 01:21:13,560 --> 01:21:15,560 When I take them, it's usually a night time thing. 1501 01:21:15,560 --> 01:21:18,640 I've definitely done them in the day before, but like, I think 1502 01:21:18,640 --> 01:21:21,160 there's a reason why philosophies have caught on in a 1503 01:21:21,160 --> 01:21:23,120 big way. I do think that there's some 1504 01:21:23,120 --> 01:21:26,400 value, of course, with Amanita and that people should learn 1505 01:21:26,400 --> 01:21:29,560 about them and check them out. But I've become wary of anything 1506 01:21:29,560 --> 01:21:33,320 where you try to like promise the moon to people, you know, I 1507 01:21:33,320 --> 01:21:36,680 think that, OK, you should learn about these, have an experience, 1508 01:21:36,920 --> 01:21:40,800 and as many probably spiritual people or traditions will tell 1509 01:21:40,800 --> 01:21:43,240 you, there's lots of ways to get to this point. 1510 01:21:43,240 --> 01:21:45,680 I haven't personally found something that can really get to 1511 01:21:45,680 --> 01:21:48,520 you to like a macrodose of possibly yet. 1512 01:21:48,560 --> 01:21:52,080 And to be fair, I haven't even taken a macro dose of Amanita. 1513 01:21:52,080 --> 01:21:54,720 I've heard people talk about taking like 20 grams. 1514 01:21:55,040 --> 01:21:57,720 That's pretty crazy to me. And like maybe there's that in 1515 01:21:57,720 --> 01:21:58,840 my future. I don't know. 1516 01:21:58,840 --> 01:22:03,560 I've taken up to like 2 1/2 grams or so and again for sleep. 1517 01:22:03,560 --> 01:22:07,680 And I think, what's Stamitz? Described. 1518 01:22:07,680 --> 01:22:12,400 His. Amanita Panthera or is it 1519 01:22:12,400 --> 01:22:14,000 Panthera pantherina? I don't know. 1520 01:22:15,240 --> 01:22:17,480 And that didn't sound pleasant to me. 1521 01:22:17,480 --> 01:22:22,840 I mean, I don't know, you know, this repeating, you know, kind 1522 01:22:22,840 --> 01:22:27,320 of a weird thing happening just didn't sound like my cup of tea. 1523 01:22:28,280 --> 01:22:31,640 But what I'll say is it just psychedelics in general. 1524 01:22:31,640 --> 01:22:35,160 I think the the important thing here is I don't know of anything 1525 01:22:35,160 --> 01:22:36,680 else in mind. Escape. 1526 01:22:36,680 --> 01:22:39,880 Over the last eight years we've investigated meditation and 1527 01:22:41,080 --> 01:22:44,120 basically your near death experience is any way to alter 1528 01:22:44,120 --> 01:22:46,560 your consciousness. Psychedelics is literally the 1529 01:22:46,560 --> 01:22:49,560 only thing you can do that alters your consciousness in a 1530 01:22:49,560 --> 01:22:53,240 waking state and allows you to interact with reality in the 1531 01:22:53,240 --> 01:22:56,120 world around you. No, no other altered state of 1532 01:22:56,120 --> 01:22:57,520 consciousness can really do that. 1533 01:22:57,800 --> 01:23:00,120 If you're meditating, you're pretty much sitting there still 1534 01:23:00,120 --> 01:23:02,560 with your eyes closed or breathing or whatever. 1535 01:23:02,800 --> 01:23:06,680 If you're lucid dreaming, you're obviously dreaming or dreaming 1536 01:23:06,680 --> 01:23:11,000 you're dreaming and near death experience I, which I've had to, 1537 01:23:11,760 --> 01:23:14,520 you're pretty much dying at that time, you know what I'm saying? 1538 01:23:14,520 --> 01:23:17,400 So it's like all these things where people have these 1539 01:23:17,400 --> 01:23:21,960 visionary or transcended experiences all happen either 1540 01:23:22,040 --> 01:23:25,920 like in an incapacitated state where psychedelics allow you to 1541 01:23:25,920 --> 01:23:29,480 interact with the world around you, you know, in a, in a real 1542 01:23:29,480 --> 01:23:35,880 time way, if that makes sense. There's so many different 1543 01:23:36,360 --> 01:23:38,480 dimensions. As probably most people can 1544 01:23:38,480 --> 01:23:40,760 attest to, and there's things I'm interested in trying and 1545 01:23:40,760 --> 01:23:43,880 there's things that I just don't really see a need for them. 1546 01:23:43,880 --> 01:23:47,280 And I've sort of even come under, let's say criticism 1547 01:23:47,280 --> 01:23:50,880 occasionally. But I think that why do you need 1548 01:23:50,880 --> 01:23:55,440 to go through 55 different routes to get to the same 1549 01:23:55,680 --> 01:23:58,920 potential open minded state? So I think like, okay, DMT, 1550 01:23:58,920 --> 01:24:01,200 super interested. I've smoked DMT on three hits of 1551 01:24:01,200 --> 01:24:03,920 LSD before and had incredible breakthroughs. 1552 01:24:03,920 --> 01:24:06,560 And I've tried macro doses of this, that and the other. 1553 01:24:06,720 --> 01:24:09,720 I've been invited through now the work that I do and all that 1554 01:24:09,720 --> 01:24:12,480 to basically all kinds of retreat centers. 1555 01:24:12,480 --> 01:24:15,080 And I'm just like, I don't really want to do Iboga, like 1556 01:24:15,080 --> 01:24:16,600 maybe I will one day, I don't know. 1557 01:24:16,600 --> 01:24:19,240 But like again, like I found something that works for me and 1558 01:24:19,240 --> 01:24:21,840 my culture and like I've I heard that's intelligence. 1559 01:24:21,880 --> 01:24:24,680 But he nods on my bro. Same thing with five meo. 1560 01:24:24,680 --> 01:24:27,160 DMT it's like I don't really feel called to like go smoke the 1561 01:24:27,160 --> 01:24:29,200 toad. Like maybe I'm sure it's amazing 1562 01:24:29,200 --> 01:24:32,520 and it's great. But like, again, I love the 1563 01:24:32,520 --> 01:24:35,360 things that I do and I'm happy with them and I've tried a lot 1564 01:24:35,360 --> 01:24:37,320 of things and I'll probably try some more later. 1565 01:24:37,320 --> 01:24:40,120 But like, you know, you got to make sense in your own world, in 1566 01:24:40,120 --> 01:24:42,040 your own life. And I feel like that's the 1567 01:24:42,200 --> 01:24:45,160 conundrum a lot of spiritual seekers find themselves in as 1568 01:24:45,160 --> 01:24:47,120 they shop the spiritual supermarket. 1569 01:24:47,120 --> 01:24:50,000 It's like, I'm gonna be a Buddhist and then I'm gonna get 1570 01:24:50,000 --> 01:24:52,920 into Tantra and then I'm gonna get really into 5 meo DMT. 1571 01:24:53,160 --> 01:24:55,120 Well, have you? And I hear this all the time, 1572 01:24:55,120 --> 01:24:56,240 bro. I go, you know, I work with 1573 01:24:56,240 --> 01:24:59,120 these different companies where I end up at parties and shit and 1574 01:24:59,120 --> 01:25:03,680 I'm in LA and they're like, here's a whole lineup of sprays 1575 01:25:03,680 --> 01:25:07,640 and we've got the MDMA, but we personally like to do the MDMA 1576 01:25:07,640 --> 01:25:10,600 with the Iboga and then we feel that after that the five meo 1577 01:25:10,600 --> 01:25:12,360 comes in. I'm just like, I don't know 1578 01:25:12,360 --> 01:25:14,560 about any of that, bro. Like good. 1579 01:25:14,560 --> 01:25:16,520 And again, I'm a cognitive libertarian. 1580 01:25:16,520 --> 01:25:18,880 I will die on that hill, I guess if I had to. 1581 01:25:18,880 --> 01:25:22,800 Where you do you, bro? But like, what if, what if just 1582 01:25:22,800 --> 01:25:26,480 like, you know, taking some mushrooms gets you there and 1583 01:25:26,480 --> 01:25:28,880 that's cool and maybe you don't need to do it anymore. 1584 01:25:29,120 --> 01:25:32,320 I still like doing psychedelics, but I often will be like, you 1585 01:25:32,320 --> 01:25:34,400 know, I'll take like 6 months or a year off or whatever. 1586 01:25:34,400 --> 01:25:36,840 Literally, I'll be like, yeah, I got my thing going on. 1587 01:25:36,880 --> 01:25:40,120 You know, I, I think people get really infatuated with the 1588 01:25:40,120 --> 01:25:42,360 honeymoon phase of stuff. And I think you could live your 1589 01:25:42,360 --> 01:25:44,960 whole life going from one honeymoon to the next. 1590 01:25:44,960 --> 01:25:48,040 You can be like, oh man, like I'm really, I've connected with 1591 01:25:48,040 --> 01:25:50,920 the spirit of the Iboga. It's like, yeah, but I bet you 1592 01:25:50,920 --> 01:25:53,200 if I see you in two years, you're going to be really into 1593 01:25:53,200 --> 01:25:55,640 like MDMA or something. And that's cool if that's you, 1594 01:25:56,000 --> 01:25:57,360 but like, just be honest with yourself. 1595 01:25:57,360 --> 01:25:59,880 No, no, that's and I think you have a great approach like your 1596 01:25:59,880 --> 01:26:02,960 outlook. On it's amazing and to be honest 1597 01:26:02,960 --> 01:26:06,800 with you, I've been that. So pre me having OCD, which kind 1598 01:26:06,800 --> 01:26:10,000 of came out in my early 20s, like your OCD, like clinical, 1599 01:26:10,000 --> 01:26:13,680 not like oh, I clean too much or whatever people like to throw 1600 01:26:13,680 --> 01:26:19,960 out there like actual real OCD. Pre OCD was what you just said 1601 01:26:19,960 --> 01:26:26,000 like once in a while macro dose amazing time or go to a show or 1602 01:26:26,000 --> 01:26:29,360 whatever, having a transcendent experience and then not have to 1603 01:26:29,440 --> 01:26:32,600 want to do it for a while. Post OCD. 1604 01:26:32,600 --> 01:26:35,080 There's been times where literally that's the only thing 1605 01:26:35,600 --> 01:26:40,120 that would break me out of like like a psychotic funk or like 1606 01:26:40,120 --> 01:26:44,920 some sort of crazy psychological thing, you know, like this mind 1607 01:26:44,920 --> 01:26:49,600 loop that won't stop, you know. So again, I think that speaks to 1608 01:26:49,600 --> 01:26:52,760 the power of being able to escape your day-to-day 1609 01:26:52,760 --> 01:26:55,920 consciousness via these compounds. 1610 01:26:57,000 --> 01:27:00,520 And I think that if you have reverence for them, whether you 1611 01:27:00,520 --> 01:27:05,160 know you're trying to use them medicinally or you're trying to 1612 01:27:05,600 --> 01:27:08,160 just have a good time and chill or whatever, as long as you 1613 01:27:08,160 --> 01:27:11,240 respect the compound, I think that's the most important part, 1614 01:27:11,520 --> 01:27:12,920 right? Like, I don't, you don't have to 1615 01:27:12,920 --> 01:27:16,120 think that God's inside this thing or whatever, but I think 1616 01:27:16,120 --> 01:27:18,880 you do have to respect the fact that this is a powerful 1617 01:27:19,120 --> 01:27:23,320 transformative compound and you interacting with it will take 1618 01:27:23,320 --> 01:27:27,600 you somewhere. And I think that you have to own 1619 01:27:27,600 --> 01:27:29,800 that. And your life story and all that 1620 01:27:29,800 --> 01:27:32,600 and that there's this sense of like, again, you could really 1621 01:27:32,600 --> 01:27:35,720 get lost in the endless seeking. And I think a lot of people do. 1622 01:27:35,720 --> 01:27:39,120 And I'm speaking as someone who thought for a while, like maybe 1623 01:27:39,120 --> 01:27:42,360 I should get an apprenticeship as ayahuasca shaman. 1624 01:27:42,360 --> 01:27:45,720 You know, like I was invited to invest in opening a center in 1625 01:27:45,720 --> 01:27:48,320 like 2012. And I've been working in Saudi 1626 01:27:48,320 --> 01:27:51,240 Arabia and as people I've met drinking ayahuasca and Peru and 1627 01:27:51,240 --> 01:27:54,120 they're like, we're going to open a center and we want you to 1628 01:27:54,120 --> 01:27:56,320 be one of the Co founders. And I have the pitch deck and I 1629 01:27:56,320 --> 01:27:57,880 would like the money and everything else. 1630 01:27:57,880 --> 01:27:59,880 Like, this is going to be my life, man. 1631 01:27:59,880 --> 01:28:01,520 I'm going to open Ayahuasca Center. 1632 01:28:01,520 --> 01:28:03,960 And then I pretty quickly realized I was like, just 1633 01:28:03,960 --> 01:28:05,640 probably sit on this idea for a while. 1634 01:28:05,640 --> 01:28:07,400 I probably don't need to be going down there. 1635 01:28:07,600 --> 01:28:10,240 And they're like, here, you're missing out, man. 1636 01:28:10,240 --> 01:28:12,080 We just did a bunch of blow last night. 1637 01:28:12,080 --> 01:28:13,840 It's great. But the center is going good. 1638 01:28:14,040 --> 01:28:16,480 And I'm like, all right, cool. Those are those, you know. 1639 01:28:16,480 --> 01:28:19,680 Again, not your typical Iowa scarrows there. 1640 01:28:21,720 --> 01:28:24,560 Yeah, but you know what? Like we're all figuring it out 1641 01:28:24,560 --> 01:28:25,920 so. I think that empathy is really 1642 01:28:25,920 --> 01:28:27,920 important, like, and that's again bringing it back to the 1643 01:28:27,920 --> 01:28:32,080 satire, Like satire, you can create this fantasy mock world 1644 01:28:32,240 --> 01:28:35,360 where it's sort of like the rules are intentionally bent and 1645 01:28:35,600 --> 01:28:38,440 people are intentionally cartoonishly distorted. 1646 01:28:38,920 --> 01:28:42,720 And then you can, and I think that you can create that and 1647 01:28:42,720 --> 01:28:47,000 then send it off on its way and you can create another world 1648 01:28:47,000 --> 01:28:48,400 tomorrow. You don't have to be stuck in 1649 01:28:48,400 --> 01:28:49,920 it. And you can hopefully learn 1650 01:28:49,920 --> 01:28:51,640 something from it because, man, yeah. 1651 01:28:51,640 --> 01:28:54,320 I have seen like one of the first characters I did that 1652 01:28:54,320 --> 01:28:57,320 became popular was this Don Chad. 1653 01:28:57,520 --> 01:29:00,760 And Chad is like the idea of the Chad and the cannabis industry. 1654 01:29:01,000 --> 01:29:04,320 But it's like the same character who discovers ayahuasca and then 1655 01:29:04,320 --> 01:29:07,000 he gets a big ayahuasca tattoo and then he wears it. 1656 01:29:07,160 --> 01:29:11,400 And I have like a hat from Nepal, a rogue from Japan, a 1657 01:29:11,400 --> 01:29:15,680 belt from Tanzania. And it's sort of, I've seen the 1658 01:29:15,680 --> 01:29:19,360 robe, you do the. Speedo with the robe. 1659 01:29:19,920 --> 01:29:21,720 I've got a whole robe collection. 1660 01:29:21,720 --> 01:29:23,080 Dude. I got them from China. 1661 01:29:23,080 --> 01:29:26,440 Japan and the Orient all over the world. 1662 01:29:26,960 --> 01:29:29,760 But I would run into these characters, and I probably had 1663 01:29:29,880 --> 01:29:34,120 them and me to some degree where it's like, I figured this out 1664 01:29:34,160 --> 01:29:38,240 and now I'm gonna move down to Peru and I'm going to change my 1665 01:29:38,240 --> 01:29:40,040 name. And so that's like one of the 1666 01:29:40,040 --> 01:29:43,400 characters I have too, is like an Amethyst Jaguar, which 1667 01:29:43,440 --> 01:29:46,200 apparently was like a real name. Somebody they named themselves 1668 01:29:46,200 --> 01:29:48,040 Amethyst, and then they took on Jaguar. 1669 01:29:48,240 --> 01:29:51,760 But it's like Amethyst Jaguar runs a retreat in Costa Rica, 1670 01:29:51,760 --> 01:29:55,680 and he's an expert on ayahuasca, but he's actually from Michigan, 1671 01:29:55,680 --> 01:29:58,080 and his family makes fudge on Mackinac Island. 1672 01:29:58,360 --> 01:30:01,880 And like, he thinks that by changing his name and having 1673 01:30:01,880 --> 01:30:05,200 this cool story around him that it gives him power. 1674 01:30:05,400 --> 01:30:08,560 But it's like, what? What if Todd, his name is Todd 1675 01:30:08,560 --> 01:30:12,280 Baker from Michigan? What if he's also a cool, 1676 01:30:12,280 --> 01:30:17,520 important dude and we don't have to dress up and have the Jaguar 1677 01:30:17,520 --> 01:30:19,480 claws and the tattoo and all that? 1678 01:30:19,840 --> 01:30:24,240 I think Westerners, myself included, really have gone 1679 01:30:24,240 --> 01:30:26,880 through this growing pain of like, we kind of rejected our 1680 01:30:26,880 --> 01:30:29,160 culture. We found out these, these cool 1681 01:30:29,160 --> 01:30:32,520 ancient stories and then we wanted to play dress up, you 1682 01:30:32,520 --> 01:30:34,560 know, and we shop the spiritual supermarket. 1683 01:30:34,560 --> 01:30:37,560 It's like, oh, wait, there's like an ancient Indian secret in 1684 01:30:37,560 --> 01:30:39,600 the Amazon. And I'm going to go down there 1685 01:30:39,600 --> 01:30:42,240 and I'm going to figure it out. But it's like I, I went down to 1686 01:30:42,240 --> 01:30:43,840 the Amazon. Like I mentioned three times, 1687 01:30:43,840 --> 01:30:46,120 I've been to Peru five times and I was in the Amazon. 1688 01:30:46,120 --> 01:30:49,360 I did like 21 ayahuasca ceremony spread out over three years. 1689 01:30:49,760 --> 01:30:52,920 And like I would meet these shaman or indigenous people in 1690 01:30:52,920 --> 01:30:56,200 Shipibo who were wearing Nikes listening to Michael Jackson and 1691 01:30:56,200 --> 01:30:58,400 they wanted to come to LA. And I was like, isn't that 1692 01:30:58,400 --> 01:31:00,440 funny? Like all the people from LA are 1693 01:31:00,440 --> 01:31:03,760 trying to go down and like go deep into the ayahuasca trance 1694 01:31:04,000 --> 01:31:06,200 and the shaman's like, bro, why don't you stay here? 1695 01:31:06,440 --> 01:31:08,560 I'll go stay at your house in Silver Lake. 1696 01:31:08,840 --> 01:31:10,600 I really like. I want my kids to get an 1697 01:31:10,600 --> 01:31:14,160 exchange for an exchange program that's a 90. 1698 01:31:14,160 --> 01:31:16,640 Day the other way. Well, that, that's. 1699 01:31:16,640 --> 01:31:19,160 A satire bit I've done that's like endlessly gift. 1700 01:31:19,160 --> 01:31:20,960 That keeps on giving. It's like, what would it be 1701 01:31:20,960 --> 01:31:23,600 like, you know, all of our American and Western European 1702 01:31:23,600 --> 01:31:26,920 people went down to go find God in the Amazon or they went to 1703 01:31:26,920 --> 01:31:29,640 India to do yoga. It's like, what if we reversed 1704 01:31:29,640 --> 01:31:30,120 that? What would they? 1705 01:31:30,120 --> 01:31:33,280 They'd go to Waffle House, like have the Shipibos go to Waffle, 1706 01:31:33,480 --> 01:31:36,520 go to the sphere and see the dead play at the sphere. 1707 01:31:36,760 --> 01:31:40,680 They'd get good at and Jerry's like, you know, we should have a 1708 01:31:40,680 --> 01:31:45,520 shamanic exchange program. Yeah, I love that. 1709 01:31:45,520 --> 01:31:50,520 Shit, keep making that. When you're so like, obviously 1710 01:31:50,520 --> 01:31:54,760 we both make content, different styles, different things. 1711 01:31:55,520 --> 01:31:58,480 Now I'm doing the master's of rhetoric, which is more purely 1712 01:31:58,480 --> 01:32:03,240 academic and focused on the origins of Western philosophy 1713 01:32:03,240 --> 01:32:07,760 and thought and everything. But as I do that, you know, I do 1714 01:32:07,760 --> 01:32:12,040 think about what you're doing and I've definitely learn some 1715 01:32:12,040 --> 01:32:16,400 things from you and what you're doing, which you know, is a, is 1716 01:32:16,400 --> 01:32:21,440 a high compliment because I consider you to be kind of like, 1717 01:32:21,960 --> 01:32:24,800 I don't know anybody that's as good of a networker as you in 1718 01:32:24,800 --> 01:32:27,720 terms of these topics and things like that. 1719 01:32:27,720 --> 01:32:33,320 But do you feel like platforms like YouTube or Tiktok or 1720 01:32:33,320 --> 01:32:36,840 Instagram are helping shape the psychedelic conversation? 1721 01:32:37,120 --> 01:32:39,600 And I know you've had like certain pages taken down or 1722 01:32:39,600 --> 01:32:42,040 whatever. Do you also feel like certain 1723 01:32:42,040 --> 01:32:46,160 narratives are being silenced or certain algorithms are kind of 1724 01:32:46,160 --> 01:32:50,200 being shadow banned or whatever, Something along those lines? 1725 01:32:51,360 --> 01:32:54,960 100 and I think that. That's part of where your 1726 01:32:54,960 --> 01:32:57,480 strategy comes in of like just build one-on-one. 1727 01:32:57,480 --> 01:32:59,840 I think people get really preoccupied with the idea of 1728 01:32:59,840 --> 01:33:02,680 like, I'm going to have all these metrics and you get lucky. 1729 01:33:02,680 --> 01:33:05,120 It's almost like gambling. Like it is like gambling where 1730 01:33:05,120 --> 01:33:07,840 it's like, and I think the algorithms are often built that 1731 01:33:07,840 --> 01:33:10,680 way where like you'll get a hit of a viral video on TikTok. 1732 01:33:10,680 --> 01:33:11,880 You're like, oh, I got a million views. 1733 01:33:12,000 --> 01:33:15,160 And then you spend the next five years chasing trying to get a 1734 01:33:15,160 --> 01:33:16,840 million and you spend all your time there. 1735 01:33:17,040 --> 01:33:21,360 So I think that they are shaping not just the conversation around 1736 01:33:21,360 --> 01:33:24,920 psychedelics, but like a lot of the conversation globally. 1737 01:33:24,920 --> 01:33:28,600 And like you'll see different political and social topics, 1738 01:33:28,600 --> 01:33:31,320 etcetera. Just get shut out. 1739 01:33:31,320 --> 01:33:35,360 So before you would burn books or you would like censor or ban. 1740 01:33:35,600 --> 01:33:38,760 And now it's just the algorithm will tell you what you can see 1741 01:33:38,760 --> 01:33:41,400 and what you can say. And it's tough for real because 1742 01:33:41,400 --> 01:33:44,360 like I mentioned, I mean, I'm often confronted with like, do I 1743 01:33:44,360 --> 01:33:47,640 really want to like make this stand on this particular subject 1744 01:33:47,640 --> 01:33:49,960 matter? And once you get an account 1745 01:33:49,960 --> 01:33:53,640 taken down and all that, like it's, it's dispiriting. 1746 01:33:53,640 --> 01:33:57,000 It's demoralizing because you know how much work it takes to 1747 01:33:57,000 --> 01:34:00,840 like be heard and be seen into network and things like that. 1748 01:34:01,200 --> 01:34:03,880 And I think everybody who says they don't care about it is 1749 01:34:03,880 --> 01:34:06,280 probably lying. If you didn't care about it, you 1750 01:34:06,280 --> 01:34:08,280 wouldn't be on the platforms in the 1st place. 1751 01:34:09,360 --> 01:34:11,920 So, you know, I've had to try to figure out how to be diplomatic 1752 01:34:11,920 --> 01:34:13,560 about it and it's changed my approach. 1753 01:34:13,560 --> 01:34:16,000 And that's part of why double down on the thing like a 1754 01:34:16,000 --> 01:34:17,880 newsletter and building the incubator. 1755 01:34:17,880 --> 01:34:21,520 Cuz, you know, I also think that there's a false sense of 1756 01:34:21,520 --> 01:34:24,040 confidence that comes with virality where it's just like 1757 01:34:24,200 --> 01:34:28,120 when and certain content will go viral. 1758 01:34:28,120 --> 01:34:30,160 So then people are incentivized to do that. 1759 01:34:30,160 --> 01:34:33,880 So it'd be like if I were to go dump on one like ethnic group 1760 01:34:33,880 --> 01:34:37,080 right now on Twitter, like it would probably catch on. 1761 01:34:37,080 --> 01:34:38,400 Like I think there's a lot of that going on. 1762 01:34:38,400 --> 01:34:41,920 Look at Twitter because X is insane right now, but I'm not 1763 01:34:41,920 --> 01:34:43,880 going to do that. It's like not that, but I think 1764 01:34:43,880 --> 01:34:47,440 that people do, they want to get seen and they want to get heard. 1765 01:34:47,440 --> 01:34:49,920 And if they're like, oh, this content like this same thing on 1766 01:34:49,920 --> 01:34:52,280 TikTok, it's a little bit different, but it's like, oh, 1767 01:34:52,280 --> 01:34:56,760 this dumb content, it gets amplified and I think there's a 1768 01:34:56,760 --> 01:34:59,600 social design there. Honestly, it's like if you were 1769 01:34:59,960 --> 01:35:02,440 trying to trying to social engineer people, I've you would 1770 01:35:02,440 --> 01:35:06,440 have them one last TikTok challenges and not be sharing 1771 01:35:06,640 --> 01:35:09,520 about macro doses and doing your own mushrooms. 1772 01:35:09,760 --> 01:35:12,680 I've taken breaks over that shit honestly, like. 1773 01:35:13,120 --> 01:35:15,960 When I see somebody's like, yeah, dude, like I wasn't even 1774 01:35:15,960 --> 01:35:17,960 trying. I just made some videos and then 1775 01:35:17,960 --> 01:35:21,680 it like took off and now I'm the most popular podcast, bro. 1776 01:35:21,680 --> 01:35:23,240 Like it's like a dagger to my heart. 1777 01:35:23,240 --> 01:35:25,200 It's like, oh, this person's such an idiot. 1778 01:35:25,480 --> 01:35:29,880 But I have to then you know, like you said it, it is kind of 1779 01:35:29,880 --> 01:35:33,040 luck. It is kind of, you could put 1780 01:35:33,040 --> 01:35:37,680 everything into it and still not make it because there's a so 1781 01:35:37,680 --> 01:35:44,160 many people B, let's say you're very well read on a certain 1782 01:35:44,160 --> 01:35:48,320 topic and maybe it's niche. There's not a lot of people that 1783 01:35:48,320 --> 01:35:50,400 will even understand half the shit that you're saying. 1784 01:35:50,440 --> 01:35:53,440 So like you had kind of have the, you know, you start riffing 1785 01:35:53,440 --> 01:35:56,320 on mushrooms, you know, a shit load more about mushrooms than 1786 01:35:56,320 --> 01:36:00,360 the average person. While I would find that 1787 01:36:00,360 --> 01:36:02,840 interesting, I could see where a lot of people be like, what is 1788 01:36:02,840 --> 01:36:04,400 he talking about kind of a thing? 1789 01:36:04,400 --> 01:36:09,480 And unfortunately, we live in a society, as you pointed out, 1790 01:36:09,480 --> 01:36:15,960 that like low bearing fruit or easy takes or fast food 1791 01:36:15,960 --> 01:36:19,840 knowledge is kind of where it's at right now, unfortunately. 1792 01:36:20,480 --> 01:36:23,320 And that's why I do that masters of rhetoric thing or started 1793 01:36:23,320 --> 01:36:28,560 doing it to try and change the the topic like epistemology, 1794 01:36:28,680 --> 01:36:31,000 theory of knowledge. How do we know what we know 1795 01:36:31,000 --> 01:36:32,440 about something? Where did you get that 1796 01:36:32,440 --> 01:36:34,240 information? What was the origin of it? 1797 01:36:34,560 --> 01:36:36,960 Teleology? What is our purpose? 1798 01:36:36,960 --> 01:36:39,480 What is the purpose and ontology? 1799 01:36:39,480 --> 01:36:41,920 What does it mean to be or to be a person? 1800 01:36:41,920 --> 01:36:45,360 You know, those kinds of things. So I think that it's important 1801 01:36:47,000 --> 01:36:52,400 to recognize that no matter how hard you put into something, 1802 01:36:52,400 --> 01:36:56,120 sometimes they're always just be people that get selected or 1803 01:36:56,440 --> 01:36:59,160 resonate more or whatever the case may be. 1804 01:36:59,160 --> 01:37:02,960 And it's unfortunate, but you know, it's a lonely, it's a 1805 01:37:02,960 --> 01:37:05,160 lonely path, that path of knowledge. 1806 01:37:06,120 --> 01:37:08,960 Well, dude, I think a couple of things there as one. 1807 01:37:09,200 --> 01:37:13,480 Is that the whole idea of like virality and like quick friends 1808 01:37:13,480 --> 01:37:16,400 and fast success? Like where has that ever been 1809 01:37:16,400 --> 01:37:18,000 true? You know, like, certainly some 1810 01:37:18,000 --> 01:37:21,320 people can have a 10 year overnight sensation. 1811 01:37:21,320 --> 01:37:23,200 You hear about that in the music industry where they're like, 1812 01:37:23,200 --> 01:37:24,720 this person took off. It's like, yeah, but they've 1813 01:37:24,720 --> 01:37:28,120 been doing shows for 10 years that no one was out. 1814 01:37:28,120 --> 01:37:30,960 So it's not like, you know, Kenny Loggins personally, 1815 01:37:30,960 --> 01:37:33,600 one-on-one told me luck smells like sweat. 1816 01:37:33,600 --> 01:37:35,600 And I've always taken that. It's like, oh, that makes sense, 1817 01:37:35,600 --> 01:37:40,000 you know, But again, people get really swindled by this sense of 1818 01:37:40,000 --> 01:37:42,440 like fast growth, growth hacking. 1819 01:37:42,600 --> 01:37:44,440 There's always something going on there. 1820 01:37:44,440 --> 01:37:48,360 It's like there's so many people truthfully, like in psychedelics 1821 01:37:48,400 --> 01:37:51,960 and other industries that are paying for followers, paying for 1822 01:37:51,960 --> 01:37:54,400 likes, paying for AI development. 1823 01:37:54,400 --> 01:37:56,720 It's like, OK, but we see you, bro. 1824 01:37:56,800 --> 01:37:59,360 We see you. And so from the approach I want 1825 01:37:59,360 --> 01:38:03,000 to take is just like slow, steady, long game building 1826 01:38:03,000 --> 01:38:05,840 one-on-one, like these conversations, you know, we did 1827 01:38:05,840 --> 01:38:07,760 this. I think tonight I'll talk to you 1828 01:38:07,760 --> 01:38:11,120 again in another year or two or whenever and just keep building. 1829 01:38:11,160 --> 01:38:14,200 We're gonna have Gray beards. But by the time we finally hit. 1830 01:38:14,200 --> 01:38:15,720 The algorithm, dude. That's dude. 1831 01:38:15,800 --> 01:38:18,800 It's just like if it looks too good to be. 1832 01:38:18,800 --> 01:38:21,760 I should say me you've entered at different points. 1833 01:38:21,760 --> 01:38:25,240 I've yet to launch off. I make that clear to people 1834 01:38:25,240 --> 01:38:28,480 though that like. I, I got really in as many 1835 01:38:28,480 --> 01:38:31,080 people did to psychedelics, but at a young age and it was very 1836 01:38:31,080 --> 01:38:33,040 niche. Like it wasn't a big community, 1837 01:38:33,040 --> 01:38:36,360 as most people can attest to. And so at least that I was 1838 01:38:36,360 --> 01:38:38,520 connected to. And then I studied media. 1839 01:38:38,680 --> 01:38:41,080 So it's like the whole, to me, the idea that like I have a 1840 01:38:41,080 --> 01:38:44,600 successful media property around psychedelics, like I started 1841 01:38:44,600 --> 01:38:46,480 this in like 2007, you know what I mean? 1842 01:38:46,720 --> 01:38:49,280 And then people will hit me up and they'll be like, I just got 1843 01:38:49,280 --> 01:38:51,480 into this. I started a podcast in 2024 and 1844 01:38:51,480 --> 01:38:54,320 I haven't made any money. And I'm just like, bro, just 1845 01:38:54,680 --> 01:38:57,000 chill out man. Just take some time. 1846 01:38:57,160 --> 01:39:01,120 Don't with social media makes you keep up with the Joneses. 1847 01:39:01,120 --> 01:39:04,840 It's like I need to be. And you have to think too if you 1848 01:39:04,840 --> 01:39:06,440 started a podcast. I mean, I've been. 1849 01:39:06,440 --> 01:39:09,840 Doing mind escape for over 8 years when I started there. 1850 01:39:09,840 --> 01:39:13,320 Really. I mean there was definitely a 1851 01:39:13,320 --> 01:39:16,040 few 100,000, but there definitely wasn't a million and 1852 01:39:16,040 --> 01:39:19,960 I remember when it hit a million and then now way over and 1853 01:39:19,960 --> 01:39:21,920 everybody has a podcast, which is totally cool. 1854 01:39:21,920 --> 01:39:23,920 I I'm not like one of these people that's like, Oh, you so 1855 01:39:23,920 --> 01:39:26,520 many podcasts out there these days, you know, like I'm not 1856 01:39:26,520 --> 01:39:29,640 like that at all. I I think that I like listening 1857 01:39:29,640 --> 01:39:32,080 to a lot of different podcasts. So when I see something cool 1858 01:39:32,080 --> 01:39:36,200 that's like new and righteous, you know, I'll check it out for 1859 01:39:36,200 --> 01:39:39,200 sure. But I do think that you can get 1860 01:39:39,200 --> 01:39:42,320 lost like anybody else, like anybody can make music now if 1861 01:39:42,320 --> 01:39:45,200 you have a MacBook and an interface, you know what I'm 1862 01:39:45,200 --> 01:39:46,960 saying? Or or a MIDI controller. 1863 01:39:47,120 --> 01:39:51,800 So there's like a lot of things now that you kind of have access 1864 01:39:51,800 --> 01:39:55,040 to that anybody can do that. So it's, I don't want to say 1865 01:39:55,040 --> 01:39:57,880 competitive, but that's kind of what it is because you're 1866 01:39:58,120 --> 01:40:01,600 competing for people to see you. Let's be honest about what all 1867 01:40:01,600 --> 01:40:05,520 this is, you know, and we might have the integrity of like, 1868 01:40:06,000 --> 01:40:07,880 we're not doing it just for that. 1869 01:40:07,880 --> 01:40:10,120 And I'm not saying that that's the case, but at the end of the 1870 01:40:10,120 --> 01:40:13,960 day, you do want people to see your philosophies or your work 1871 01:40:13,960 --> 01:40:16,240 or your thoughts or what you have to offer on a certain 1872 01:40:16,240 --> 01:40:18,320 topic. I I mean, that's just what it 1873 01:40:18,320 --> 01:40:21,680 is. I'm a firm believer and if you 1874 01:40:21,680 --> 01:40:22,920 build. It they will come. 1875 01:40:23,160 --> 01:40:26,840 And that there's the whole like equal and opposite reaction or 1876 01:40:26,840 --> 01:40:29,440 whatever where if you put something out, you're going to 1877 01:40:29,440 --> 01:40:31,400 get something back. I think that's the laws of the 1878 01:40:31,400 --> 01:40:33,800 universe. But when you feel entitled to 1879 01:40:33,800 --> 01:40:37,160 things like I have tons of episodes I've done that. 1880 01:40:37,160 --> 01:40:41,200 I get like 200 downloads, you know, and like, but I'm not 1881 01:40:41,200 --> 01:40:44,080 willing to go on the other side and be like, I want to pay for 1882 01:40:44,080 --> 01:40:46,120 this and that and the other and I'm going to have a million 1883 01:40:46,120 --> 01:40:48,600 metrics. It's like to me, I do a lot of 1884 01:40:48,600 --> 01:40:51,520 what I'm doing because it's one-on-one network building. 1885 01:40:51,520 --> 01:40:54,280 And then that's literally no matter what you do, if it's in 1886 01:40:54,280 --> 01:40:56,720 psychedelics, if it's you're owning a restaurant, if it's, 1887 01:40:56,720 --> 01:41:00,040 you're an athlete, like it's that network man that overtime 1888 01:41:00,280 --> 01:41:04,960 and like people don't want to be a node that's just part of your 1889 01:41:04,960 --> 01:41:07,160 network that you don't that you don't care about. 1890 01:41:07,160 --> 01:41:09,960 Like people want to feel like you know their names, you know, 1891 01:41:09,960 --> 01:41:12,200 about their families. And I always hear that too, 1892 01:41:12,200 --> 01:41:14,200 about like different successful people. 1893 01:41:14,200 --> 01:41:17,000 Like there was a politician whose name's escaping me at the 1894 01:41:17,000 --> 01:41:18,720 moment, but he's someone everybody would have heard of. 1895 01:41:19,080 --> 01:41:22,120 And I, I heard an interview with someone from The Tonight Show 1896 01:41:22,120 --> 01:41:26,160 who was like, this guy came on seven years ago and he came back 1897 01:41:26,160 --> 01:41:28,560 and like, he kind of knew everybody's name who was there 1898 01:41:28,560 --> 01:41:29,960 and it was cool. And like, maybe he had a 1899 01:41:29,960 --> 01:41:33,320 briefing, but like you, you make people feel like they account. 1900 01:41:33,640 --> 01:41:35,200 And I feel like we've lost that now. 1901 01:41:35,200 --> 01:41:38,560 People they supposedly Tom Cruise remembers everybody's 1902 01:41:38,560 --> 01:41:41,080 names on movies. And shit, people talk all sorts 1903 01:41:41,080 --> 01:41:43,840 of shit about Tom Cruise, but apparently this dude remembers 1904 01:41:43,840 --> 01:41:46,520 everything. And I think that's a special 1905 01:41:46,520 --> 01:41:48,080 skill. And it just shows that like. 1906 01:41:48,360 --> 01:41:50,800 You actually care about people. So that's kind of where I'd 1907 01:41:50,800 --> 01:41:53,280 stack my chips. And it's also I I see a lot of 1908 01:41:53,520 --> 01:41:57,120 like elitism for sure. There's elitism and business 1909 01:41:57,120 --> 01:41:59,960 world and psychedelics and it's like I lived in Malibu for a 1910 01:41:59,960 --> 01:42:03,120 while and that's like peak of the Creme de la Creme of the 1911 01:42:03,880 --> 01:42:06,240 there's a row and I've been to these garden parties where it's 1912 01:42:06,240 --> 01:42:09,080 like nobody. I remember one specific example, 1913 01:42:09,080 --> 01:42:11,840 like I'm an includer. You know, I'll see people in a 1914 01:42:11,840 --> 01:42:14,200 group or whatever, be like I'll go talk to them or whatever. 1915 01:42:14,440 --> 01:42:17,720 And I was at this super nice garden party and point doom. 1916 01:42:17,720 --> 01:42:20,320 You know, it's like tons of billionaires and business people 1917 01:42:20,320 --> 01:42:22,680 there and all that. And this woman was by herself. 1918 01:42:22,960 --> 01:42:24,480 And I just like, I'm going to go talk to her. 1919 01:42:24,680 --> 01:42:27,760 And I went and talked, and then people heard, overheard us talk 1920 01:42:27,760 --> 01:42:30,040 and they're like, she's like, oh, I live in Carbon Beach, 1921 01:42:30,040 --> 01:42:33,040 which is like billionaire's row. And then everybody took an 1922 01:42:33,040 --> 01:42:34,960 interest in her. And that's to me, like what a 1923 01:42:34,960 --> 01:42:37,160 lot of these things are be like, they didn't actually care about 1924 01:42:37,160 --> 01:42:40,280 this person. That story encapsulates what I 1925 01:42:40,280 --> 01:42:43,480 think about California. In general, unfortunately, and 1926 01:42:43,480 --> 01:42:46,240 I'm not saying that to like talk shit or, but like when people 1927 01:42:46,240 --> 01:42:49,640 from like the Midwest or somewhere more down to earth, 1928 01:42:49,640 --> 01:42:54,040 usually when we think about like LA or California, I know there's 1929 01:42:54,040 --> 01:42:57,440 real people there. Obviously people like you and 1930 01:42:57,440 --> 01:43:00,320 other people I've met definitely and I have friends that have 1931 01:43:00,320 --> 01:43:03,880 moved out there. But there is definitely like a 1932 01:43:03,880 --> 01:43:07,320 social climbing aspect to the culture there in in general. 1933 01:43:07,320 --> 01:43:11,320 In general, Yeah. And I think, just as I've always 1934 01:43:11,320 --> 01:43:12,720 tried. To approach things is like. 1935 01:43:13,320 --> 01:43:15,760 I was at South by Southwest. I've got to do it a few years, 1936 01:43:15,760 --> 01:43:17,960 which is super fun. But like, again, I've never even 1937 01:43:17,960 --> 01:43:20,520 like heard of half of these things until I, you know, over 1938 01:43:20,520 --> 01:43:22,440 many years got invited to do them. 1939 01:43:22,720 --> 01:43:24,840 And there was a woman who was speaking there the first year I 1940 01:43:24,840 --> 01:43:26,840 was there. And I saw her walk up to the 1941 01:43:26,840 --> 01:43:29,080 janitor and like talk to the janitor. 1942 01:43:29,080 --> 01:43:32,120 And literally like all of these people have just walked by and 1943 01:43:32,120 --> 01:43:33,520 not paid attention to this person. 1944 01:43:33,760 --> 01:43:36,920 And it just moved me so deeply that that's like the main thing 1945 01:43:36,920 --> 01:43:39,840 I remember from that whole South by Southwest is that this this 1946 01:43:39,840 --> 01:43:42,840 person went and talked to the janitor and like made them feel 1947 01:43:42,840 --> 01:43:45,320 seen when everybody else was just like walking by on their 1948 01:43:45,320 --> 01:43:48,000 phone throwing trash in. And but that's how I tried to 1949 01:43:48,000 --> 01:43:50,760 like approach everything is to be like, you don't need to 1950 01:43:50,760 --> 01:43:54,400 social climb like and honestly, like that usually works out in 1951 01:43:54,400 --> 01:43:56,760 your favor where you're like, Oh man, I got this cool 1952 01:43:56,760 --> 01:43:59,440 opportunity. It's like I heard a saying that 1953 01:43:59,440 --> 01:44:02,000 I I like a lot and Edward Crowe shout out. 1954 01:44:02,000 --> 01:44:05,640 He's one of my colleagues and friends, a great artist and 1955 01:44:05,720 --> 01:44:08,800 music industry professional. And first time he came on the 1956 01:44:08,800 --> 01:44:10,200 podcast, he's a big mushroom guy. 1957 01:44:10,200 --> 01:44:13,720 He, he shared this saying with me, it's like, sweep the parking 1958 01:44:13,720 --> 01:44:16,480 lot until you own the building. And I really think that's an 1959 01:44:16,480 --> 01:44:19,200 important way, like with whatever you're doing, there's 1960 01:44:19,200 --> 01:44:22,600 so many people who think that they deserve to be the CEO or 1961 01:44:22,600 --> 01:44:25,480 they deserve to be the rock star or whatever, but it's like, bro, 1962 01:44:25,480 --> 01:44:27,320 you gotta go sweep that parking lot. 1963 01:44:27,320 --> 01:44:31,040 You gotta like wake up and take care of your people and all 1964 01:44:31,040 --> 01:44:32,800 that. You don't, you don't put the 1965 01:44:32,800 --> 01:44:35,560 cart before the horse. Like you do your thing, you 1966 01:44:35,560 --> 01:44:38,760 focus and, and again, you know, like I said, like I know with my 1967 01:44:38,760 --> 01:44:42,600 family, my circle of friends and all that, like that's hard won 1968 01:44:42,600 --> 01:44:44,800 and over time. And that's something that's 1969 01:44:44,800 --> 01:44:47,840 like, regardless of if I'm successful or not, there's going 1970 01:44:47,840 --> 01:44:50,000 to be hangers on, bro. I see it all the time. 1971 01:44:50,000 --> 01:44:52,320 You see the people kissing your ass and wanting something from 1972 01:44:52,320 --> 01:44:54,120 you. And I'm just like, that's not 1973 01:44:54,120 --> 01:44:56,400 what got me here A&B. That's not why I'm here. 1974 01:44:56,600 --> 01:44:58,080 Like it's cool. I'll hang out. 1975 01:44:58,080 --> 01:45:01,480 I like to fraternize and have fun, but like, you know, you 1976 01:45:01,480 --> 01:45:04,160 hear this from people who have been successful and it inspires 1977 01:45:04,160 --> 01:45:06,680 me a lot. Like Dave Portnoy, regardless of 1978 01:45:06,680 --> 01:45:09,400 what you feel about him, the Barstool Sports guy, he's talked 1979 01:45:09,400 --> 01:45:13,080 about like his ex-wife still has access to his bank account even 1980 01:45:13,080 --> 01:45:15,200 though he has a $500 million business now. 1981 01:45:15,200 --> 01:45:18,720 Plus, yeah, I see. She was, she was there when 1982 01:45:18,720 --> 01:45:21,560 nobody else was. And I think like loyalty is in 1983 01:45:21,560 --> 01:45:24,480 such short supply because when you're hot, everybody wants a 1984 01:45:24,480 --> 01:45:25,920 piece. I think that's a Jerry Maguire 1985 01:45:25,920 --> 01:45:27,200 bit too. Everybody wants a piece. 1986 01:45:27,440 --> 01:45:30,840 But like when you're on the come up or when you're, and so why 1987 01:45:30,840 --> 01:45:32,120 can't you do that for other people? 1988 01:45:32,120 --> 01:45:33,160 You know, like you don't need to. 1989 01:45:33,480 --> 01:45:35,720 And I just see that so much in psychedelics too, to be like, 1990 01:45:35,920 --> 01:45:37,120 oh, I'm going to go to the conference. 1991 01:45:37,200 --> 01:45:40,480 I'm going to get Andrew Huberman's ball sweat on my 1992 01:45:40,480 --> 01:45:43,400 fingers or whatever. Like, dude, it's got some dude, 1993 01:45:43,400 --> 01:45:48,840 it's got nootropics in it, bro. No, I mean look. 1994 01:45:48,840 --> 01:45:52,000 As as. The old schools used to say real 1995 01:45:52,000 --> 01:45:54,840 recognize real, you know, like you're right. 1996 01:45:54,840 --> 01:45:58,160 And like, you know, even for this podcast, like I could have 1997 01:45:58,160 --> 01:46:01,480 sent you like some weird social media DM, but I text, I had your 1998 01:46:01,480 --> 01:46:02,600 number. I'm like, I'm going to text this 1999 01:46:02,600 --> 01:46:04,160 dude. Let's let's get this set up, you 2000 01:46:04,160 --> 01:46:07,600 know, and we've had cool conversations in the past, so I 2001 01:46:07,600 --> 01:46:09,480 didn't feel like weird about it or whatever. 2002 01:46:09,480 --> 01:46:12,600 But like, you're right, like, you know, and that's something 2003 01:46:12,600 --> 01:46:15,120 I've always tried to cultivate is like kind of make friends 2004 01:46:15,120 --> 01:46:18,720 with people on the that you have on, not necessarily like every 2005 01:46:18,720 --> 01:46:20,840 guest that comes on. But if there's some sort of 2006 01:46:20,840 --> 01:46:25,560 common thread there, why not, You know, if you have a lot of 2007 01:46:25,880 --> 01:46:30,840 commonalities or, you know, you share some sort of kinship 2008 01:46:30,840 --> 01:46:32,640 there. Let's let's let's make it happen 2009 01:46:32,640 --> 01:46:35,800 kind of a thing. And, you know, there's what I 2010 01:46:35,800 --> 01:46:38,600 call friends of the show or people that I talk to regularly 2011 01:46:38,600 --> 01:46:42,040 or will bounce ideas off me. I'll bounce ideas off them, you 2012 01:46:42,040 --> 01:46:44,080 know, say what's up, you know, see how you doing. 2013 01:46:45,280 --> 01:46:47,400 And I, and I think that that's, that is important. 2014 01:46:47,400 --> 01:46:50,200 And whether you're doing a podcast or running a TikTok 2015 01:46:50,200 --> 01:46:54,880 account or whatever, I think that creating those bonds are 2016 01:46:54,880 --> 01:46:58,800 important. And I do think that I've been 2017 01:46:58,800 --> 01:47:05,560 lucky enough for 90% of the people, maybe 85, it's been 2018 01:47:05,560 --> 01:47:07,520 reciprocal. And then you'll get somebody, as 2019 01:47:07,520 --> 01:47:09,960 I mentioned, off air, they'll come on and be like, I'm trying 2020 01:47:09,960 --> 01:47:12,280 to sell my book and they'll just repeat the same talking points 2021 01:47:12,280 --> 01:47:14,760 that they repeated on five other previous podcasts. 2022 01:47:14,760 --> 01:47:16,760 It's like, I'm not interested in that. 2023 01:47:16,760 --> 01:47:17,680 If that's what you're going to do. 2024 01:47:17,680 --> 01:47:21,000 I can't really control that. But I would rather have a real 2025 01:47:21,120 --> 01:47:24,360 conversation and, and have a little bit of a back and forth 2026 01:47:24,360 --> 01:47:29,440 and, and build some rapport then have some sort of like, you 2027 01:47:29,440 --> 01:47:32,320 know, stale talking point podcast or whatever. 2028 01:47:33,720 --> 01:47:35,080 Yeah. And I do my best to be as 2029 01:47:35,080 --> 01:47:36,520 authentic as. Possible, you know. 2030 01:47:36,520 --> 01:47:39,760 Like I'm just kind of sharing, like even this week I do the 2031 01:47:39,760 --> 01:47:41,760 incubator I mentioned and there's somebody who's been 2032 01:47:41,760 --> 01:47:44,160 coming on and they're like, look, I have a very similar 2033 01:47:44,160 --> 01:47:45,840 business to yours that I'm launching. 2034 01:47:46,120 --> 01:47:47,880 And what do you think about this? 2035 01:47:47,880 --> 01:47:49,280 And I'm like, great, here's three leads. 2036 01:47:49,280 --> 01:47:51,840 I don't have time for this, you know, so like you could take. 2037 01:47:51,840 --> 01:47:55,760 But that's how I feel that about life in general is like, I'm not 2038 01:47:55,760 --> 01:47:58,880 too focused on the critics. Like it's certainly it's hurt in 2039 01:47:58,880 --> 01:48:00,240 the past. And there's time when I'm like, 2040 01:48:00,240 --> 01:48:02,440 oh, that's stung. But like, you get to a point 2041 01:48:02,440 --> 01:48:04,480 where like, I just got bigger fish to fry, dude. 2042 01:48:04,480 --> 01:48:07,040 Like I'm not out there trying to take anyone down. 2043 01:48:07,040 --> 01:48:10,800 Like I got way more going on and I'll deal with the things as 2044 01:48:10,800 --> 01:48:12,760 they come. You know, life comes at you. 2045 01:48:12,760 --> 01:48:15,440 And, and that's something I've learned from life in general 2046 01:48:15,440 --> 01:48:17,880 now, is that like that shit hits you when you are not ready for 2047 01:48:17,880 --> 01:48:21,360 it, Bro, Dude, I got this gnarly satirical hit piece, bro, it's 2048 01:48:21,360 --> 01:48:22,360 ready. To roll. 2049 01:48:22,960 --> 01:48:24,240 I'm ready. I've been kind of like 2050 01:48:24,440 --> 01:48:28,880 disheartened that nobody's. Taken like that public swipe in 2051 01:48:28,880 --> 01:48:32,200 a like a hit piece in a major publication for me. 2052 01:48:32,200 --> 01:48:33,760 Yeah, you know, hopefully one day. 2053 01:48:34,040 --> 01:48:35,680 Well, you're authentic and you're like it. 2054 01:48:35,680 --> 01:48:37,440 You're a likable dude. I mean, it would take a real. 2055 01:48:37,440 --> 01:48:40,040 Piece of shit to do that in my opinion, because it would take 2056 01:48:40,040 --> 01:48:42,880 somebody that doesn't even know what they're doing to do that, 2057 01:48:43,040 --> 01:48:45,200 which is I guess what a lot of hit pieces are, right? 2058 01:48:45,200 --> 01:48:49,480 It's surface, you know, gossip or whatever that they have to 2059 01:48:49,480 --> 01:48:52,760 sell clicks or whatever. But I mean, it would be very 2060 01:48:52,760 --> 01:48:56,240 hard. That's why when you're authentic 2061 01:48:56,240 --> 01:48:58,840 and you put your real self out there and you do build true, 2062 01:48:58,840 --> 01:49:02,360 real community and you do things like you said, you put, you put 2063 01:49:02,360 --> 01:49:05,320 good vibes out there, you, you know, invest in your community 2064 01:49:05,320 --> 01:49:07,120 and share and everything like that. 2065 01:49:07,120 --> 01:49:10,880 I think it's hard to critique and criticize. 2066 01:49:10,880 --> 01:49:12,360 I mean, cause what are they going to say? 2067 01:49:12,360 --> 01:49:15,080 You know, you're, you're, you're a real 1. 2068 01:49:15,080 --> 01:49:17,440 And I mean, that's it's a tough, it's a tough thing. 2069 01:49:18,480 --> 01:49:20,480 It's a long road I think is important. 2070 01:49:20,480 --> 01:49:23,600 And like I wake. Up just super grateful to be on 2071 01:49:23,600 --> 01:49:25,800 the road. I think there's also there's AI 2072 01:49:25,800 --> 01:49:28,400 love, like anecdotes and stories and there's a great Jerry 2073 01:49:28,400 --> 01:49:30,680 Seinfeld story and that's someone actually I've never 2074 01:49:30,680 --> 01:49:31,960 really even like watched his stuff. 2075 01:49:31,960 --> 01:49:34,640 Like of course I'm aware of Jerry Seinfeld and Seinfeld, but 2076 01:49:34,640 --> 01:49:37,640 it's a story I heard about him that I really like where he was 2077 01:49:37,640 --> 01:49:40,920 already super successful with Seinfeld doing stand up comedy 2078 01:49:40,920 --> 01:49:44,200 all over the world and he was backstage in New York and there 2079 01:49:44,200 --> 01:49:46,640 was a comic going up. He's like Jerry, He's like, man, 2080 01:49:47,000 --> 01:49:50,920 I've been doing comedy for 12 years and I haven't made it yet. 2081 01:49:51,240 --> 01:49:53,240 And I need to know, like, how do I make it? 2082 01:49:53,240 --> 01:49:55,800 Like, when do I give up? And then Jerry goes, you missed 2083 01:49:55,800 --> 01:49:58,200 the whole point. You're doing comedy tonight. 2084 01:49:58,240 --> 01:50:00,040 You made it. You know, there's this. 2085 01:50:00,080 --> 01:50:02,880 And I think there's this sense again of entitlement of like, I 2086 01:50:02,880 --> 01:50:05,360 need to get to the next thing. But like, if you can walk that 2087 01:50:05,360 --> 01:50:08,040 back and be like, dude, I'm just in the game. 2088 01:50:08,080 --> 01:50:11,080 As you know, as cliche as it sounds, I'm in the arena. 2089 01:50:11,560 --> 01:50:14,960 That's where you got to be, bro. Like this sense of the external 2090 01:50:14,960 --> 01:50:19,320 motivation of like the award or the money or the fame, That's 2091 01:50:19,320 --> 01:50:21,640 what validated me. I think you missed the whole 2092 01:50:21,640 --> 01:50:23,640 boat. And most people are looking for 2093 01:50:23,640 --> 01:50:24,800 that. It's like, no, no, no. 2094 01:50:24,800 --> 01:50:26,560 The whole point is like, you get to do this. 2095 01:50:26,560 --> 01:50:29,440 You get to learn from your craft and you get to do it again 2096 01:50:29,440 --> 01:50:31,520 tomorrow. And again, just bring it back to 2097 01:50:31,520 --> 01:50:33,640 that Kenny Loggins. But it's like, look, smells like 2098 01:50:33,640 --> 01:50:36,320 sweat, dude. Like you're, you know, 10 years, 2099 01:50:36,320 --> 01:50:38,960 20 years, whenever it is. And maybe you never get that 2100 01:50:38,960 --> 01:50:42,200 like Joe Rogan level fame. That's an anomaly for sure. 2101 01:50:42,240 --> 01:50:45,240 Or that Huberman ball sweat. Yeah dude. 2102 01:50:45,240 --> 01:50:46,840 And shout out. I would love to go on, you know, 2103 01:50:46,840 --> 01:50:47,960 their podcast. I don't think they'll ever. 2104 01:50:47,960 --> 01:50:50,880 Invite me because I don't have a canned political talking point, 2105 01:50:50,880 --> 01:50:53,000 you know, so it would be cool to do it. 2106 01:50:53,840 --> 01:50:56,040 I'm I'm on board. I mean, I've seen some pretty 2107 01:50:56,040 --> 01:50:59,720 big grifters on both, so I. Wouldn't rule it out if you 2108 01:50:59,720 --> 01:51:05,280 really are interested. So this is. 2109 01:51:05,360 --> 01:51:08,880 You're the second person to do. This this is a Nuke segment. 2110 01:51:09,080 --> 01:51:12,760 And here we go. Are you ready? 2111 01:51:31,110 --> 01:51:33,430 Are you ready for Mike's mind melters? 2112 01:51:34,070 --> 01:51:38,390 Help me bro, All right? And just so, everybody. 2113 01:51:38,390 --> 01:51:40,630 Knows I initially had it at 4 questions. 2114 01:51:40,630 --> 01:51:45,670 I've changed it. It's 5 pretty, you know, out 2115 01:51:45,670 --> 01:51:48,990 there philosophical questions, except for the last one, which 2116 01:51:48,990 --> 01:51:51,470 will hopefully brighten up at the end. 2117 01:51:51,470 --> 01:51:56,000 But here we go. Number one, What is something 2118 01:51:56,000 --> 01:51:58,320 you believe in that you? Know is probably. 2119 01:51:58,320 --> 01:52:02,120 Wrong or illogical, but you are just not being honest with 2120 01:52:02,120 --> 01:52:07,600 yourself. Something that I. 2121 01:52:07,600 --> 01:52:09,520 Believe in that. Is wrong. 2122 01:52:09,720 --> 01:52:14,920 Or illogical. I believe in the benevolence and 2123 01:52:14,920 --> 01:52:18,600 the goodness of the human spirit and race, and that's being 2124 01:52:18,600 --> 01:52:21,800 challenged every day right now. And I fundamentally have always 2125 01:52:21,800 --> 01:52:26,440 believed that people are good and that humanity has a moral 2126 01:52:26,440 --> 01:52:29,560 center. And I hope that's true because 2127 01:52:29,560 --> 01:52:33,040 it's looking pretty hairy these days in a lot of different ways. 2128 01:52:34,960 --> 01:52:39,360 OK. #2. Do you think there is an 2129 01:52:39,360 --> 01:52:43,240 objective purpose for humanity, and if So, what? 2130 01:52:45,040 --> 01:52:47,440 So I had a. Vision, once that. 2131 01:52:47,440 --> 01:52:51,920 Said that humanity is the medium between like biology and 2132 01:52:51,920 --> 01:52:55,760 technology. So maybe there's something to 2133 01:52:55,760 --> 01:53:00,200 one of these visions I had with ayahuasca years ago, which was 2134 01:53:01,040 --> 01:53:05,240 Michelin Man like Homer Simpson looking white Michelin Man being 2135 01:53:05,240 --> 01:53:09,320 poked by Bender from Futurama and kind of like prodded. 2136 01:53:09,320 --> 01:53:12,960 And so I think what is our objective as a species? 2137 01:53:12,960 --> 01:53:17,520 Maybe it's to usherin our own extinction. 2138 01:53:17,560 --> 01:53:25,080 Honestly, Bender's unbelievable. #3 Do you think humans are 2139 01:53:25,080 --> 01:53:28,960 special or separate from the rest of nature? 2140 01:53:29,120 --> 01:53:32,160 If your answer is yes, please give me your best example or 2141 01:53:32,160 --> 01:53:34,320 explanation of why humans are special. 2142 01:53:36,280 --> 01:53:39,280 I think that we have. A form that. 2143 01:53:39,280 --> 01:53:42,960 Is really important, but are we separate from nature? 2144 01:53:43,120 --> 01:53:45,600 I don't think so. I don't think we're particularly 2145 01:53:45,600 --> 01:53:47,440 special. I think there's a lot of overlap 2146 01:53:47,440 --> 01:53:52,280 between something like a mushroom and a person, and I 2147 01:53:52,280 --> 01:53:54,560 think that we are not that separate at the end of the day 2148 01:53:54,560 --> 01:54:00,560 from the rest of nature. I like that answer. #4. 2149 01:54:01,320 --> 01:54:03,480 What do you think happens when we die? 2150 01:54:06,080 --> 01:54:08,840 Wow, so my. Christian programming and. 2151 01:54:08,840 --> 01:54:11,880 Growing up would tell me that there's a heaven, and also my 2152 01:54:11,920 --> 01:54:15,360 life experience would tell me that maybe that's a way of 2153 01:54:15,360 --> 01:54:18,440 framing and oversimplifying something that's ineffable that 2154 01:54:18,440 --> 01:54:21,600 we can't understand. And I would like to think that 2155 01:54:21,600 --> 01:54:25,200 maybe we never die. I think that I've often thought 2156 01:54:25,200 --> 01:54:27,520 this, like, what if I am in the hereafter right now? 2157 01:54:27,520 --> 01:54:30,880 How would that change things? Because how would we even know 2158 01:54:30,880 --> 01:54:32,400 so? And there's been lots of 2159 01:54:32,480 --> 01:54:34,960 experiences in my life and other people's lives that they've 2160 01:54:34,960 --> 01:54:39,040 shared with me that defy logic. So I like to suspend my 2161 01:54:39,040 --> 01:54:41,680 disbelief a little bit. And what happens when we die? 2162 01:54:41,960 --> 01:54:43,840 I don't really have a clear frame of that. 2163 01:54:43,840 --> 01:54:46,480 But I also want to introduce the possibility of like, what if we 2164 01:54:46,480 --> 01:54:48,240 don't? And what if we already have? 2165 01:54:48,320 --> 01:54:53,640 And who would be the one to tell us that we have to piggyback on 2166 01:54:53,640 --> 01:54:54,240 that? This is the. 2167 01:54:54,240 --> 01:54:58,720 Last question this. Is more of like a speculation or 2168 01:54:58,720 --> 01:55:02,080 a hopeful speculation. What do you hope it happens when 2169 01:55:02,080 --> 01:55:03,640 we die? Like, you know, we talked about 2170 01:55:03,640 --> 01:55:07,000 what do you think happens, but what do you hope happens when we 2171 01:55:07,000 --> 01:55:10,880 die? I hope that my life. 2172 01:55:10,880 --> 01:55:13,520 And the people. That I've touched, can live on 2173 01:55:13,520 --> 01:55:18,560 and echo into eternity. And I really appreciate the here 2174 01:55:18,560 --> 01:55:21,720 and now and again, I don't spend too much time thinking about 2175 01:55:21,720 --> 01:55:23,920 that. I did have, and I have had some 2176 01:55:25,120 --> 01:55:26,960 ego death. Seems cheap to call it that 2177 01:55:26,960 --> 01:55:28,520 because it's such a widely used term. 2178 01:55:28,520 --> 01:55:31,960 But like points where I like feel like I had died for sure. 2179 01:55:32,240 --> 01:55:36,560 And then just being able to come back here, my real sense of 2180 01:55:36,560 --> 01:55:39,000 purpose. And the last one I had was that 2181 01:55:39,120 --> 01:55:42,240 my son is here now and that it's really just my job to be of 2182 01:55:42,240 --> 01:55:44,480 service to him and to other people. 2183 01:55:44,480 --> 01:55:47,520 So I, there's a woman here where I live that I used to buy 2184 01:55:47,520 --> 01:55:50,160 vegetables from and she's like 90 years old. 2185 01:55:50,160 --> 01:55:54,200 She's very old small woman. And she said to me randomly one 2186 01:55:54,200 --> 01:55:56,320 day I came and like bought 2 potatoes from her. 2187 01:55:56,320 --> 01:55:59,880 And she's like, just so you know, one day you'll come and I 2188 01:55:59,880 --> 01:56:03,400 won't be here, but I will be in the trees and in the birdsong 2189 01:56:03,640 --> 01:56:06,200 and you will be able to connect with me and you'll ask where I 2190 01:56:06,200 --> 01:56:08,960 am and I will be there. And I was like, wow, that was 2191 01:56:08,960 --> 01:56:11,680 the coolest potato purchase I've ever made right now. 2192 01:56:11,960 --> 01:56:13,880 And I think there's some value to that too as well. 2193 01:56:14,360 --> 01:56:16,720 Recognize yourself. I was like, I'm here to serve, 2194 01:56:16,720 --> 01:56:19,120 I'm here to enjoy and to connect with you. 2195 01:56:19,120 --> 01:56:22,640 And when I'm gone, hopefully that's what lives on is that 2196 01:56:22,640 --> 01:56:26,360 memory of me being of service and being upbeat and happy and, 2197 01:56:26,600 --> 01:56:30,560 and, and wherever I am, there I am as well. 2198 01:56:31,840 --> 01:56:34,320 Amazing. Thank you so much, Dennis. 2199 01:56:34,600 --> 01:56:55,680 For answering the questions. wrap it up here. 2200 01:56:56,120 --> 01:56:59,120 I want to ask you one last question and then we can talk 2201 01:56:59,120 --> 01:57:02,480 about anything else or not and we can just wrap it up. 2202 01:57:02,960 --> 01:57:08,080 But what is next for Micropreneur and for what you 2203 01:57:08,080 --> 01:57:11,400 think is psychedelic culture in general and what shifts do you 2204 01:57:11,400 --> 01:57:13,560 see coming in the next five years or so? 2205 01:57:14,720 --> 01:57:16,960 So big one I'm working on right now which? 2206 01:57:17,040 --> 01:57:20,840 So Mycopreneur will always, as far as I can tell, be going on 2207 01:57:20,840 --> 01:57:25,640 and is in a pocket right now. So every Thursday we do the 2208 01:57:25,640 --> 01:57:28,160 incubator. Anyone's welcome to join. 2209 01:57:28,160 --> 01:57:30,280 Just drop in for 10 minutes if you want. 2210 01:57:30,280 --> 01:57:31,680 And that's all through the newsletter. 2211 01:57:31,680 --> 01:57:34,960 I put the link in there so I'll keep covering that because 2212 01:57:34,960 --> 01:57:37,840 there's so much happening in the mushroom entrepreneurial space 2213 01:57:38,080 --> 01:57:40,360 globally. I've got stories from like 2214 01:57:40,680 --> 01:57:45,400 sub-Saharan Africa and China and Chile all this week, every week 2215 01:57:45,400 --> 01:57:47,400 I have them. So that'll keep going. 2216 01:57:47,680 --> 01:57:51,240 But the big kind of next project is Global Psychedelic Week, 2217 01:57:51,240 --> 01:57:53,320 which I've been looped into. I'm a Co founder of it. 2218 01:57:53,320 --> 01:57:57,320 It was an invitation last year that came and it's to connect 2219 01:57:57,320 --> 01:58:02,000 all these pockets and siloed off communities all over the world. 2220 01:58:02,000 --> 01:58:07,560 There's people and I mentioned in Serbia, South Africa, 2221 01:58:07,560 --> 01:58:11,080 Australia, Russia, you name it, there's a psychedelic community 2222 01:58:11,080 --> 01:58:13,960 there and they're all pretty much operating underground or 2223 01:58:13,960 --> 01:58:16,280 independently. So we're really working to 2224 01:58:16,640 --> 01:58:20,200 connect people who are open to that and that's November 3rd 2225 01:58:20,200 --> 01:58:22,920 through 9th. We've got some of the big names 2226 01:58:22,920 --> 01:58:25,000 and psychedelic industry renaissance. 2227 01:58:25,000 --> 01:58:29,040 We've got Rick Doblin speaking, Robin Carhartt Harris, but then 2228 01:58:29,040 --> 01:58:32,480 also a ton of other people many folks will have never heard of. 2229 01:58:32,480 --> 01:58:37,280 We've got people from Zimbabwe and Argentina and United Arab 2230 01:58:37,280 --> 01:58:40,600 Emirates because again, if you build it, they will come. 2231 01:58:40,600 --> 01:58:43,720 And we, we put it out there and then people started hitting us 2232 01:58:43,720 --> 01:58:47,720 up and they told, hey, my friend posted about this and we want 2233 01:58:47,720 --> 01:58:48,800 our community to be a part of it. 2234 01:58:48,800 --> 01:58:51,880 So it's online. And we also have in person 2235 01:58:51,880 --> 01:58:53,440 satellite events all over the planet. 2236 01:58:53,440 --> 01:58:56,560 So we've got like 50 plus confirmed in places like Goa, 2237 01:58:56,560 --> 01:59:02,200 India, Buenos Aires, Los Angeles, Amsterdam, and we're 2238 01:59:02,200 --> 01:59:03,880 really getting cooking with it right now. 2239 01:59:03,880 --> 01:59:07,240 And we do have a very professional event production 2240 01:59:07,240 --> 01:59:11,120 team behind it as well. So I feel like my role is really 2241 01:59:11,120 --> 01:59:14,400 as an ambassador and a evangelist and a community 2242 01:59:14,400 --> 01:59:19,040 builder, if you will. The logistics are not my my bag, 2243 01:59:19,240 --> 01:59:21,200 but I'm learning how to do an event. 2244 01:59:21,200 --> 01:59:24,040 So that's November 3rd to 9th Global Psychedelic week. 2245 01:59:24,440 --> 01:59:27,880 You can find that anywhere if you Google that or just follow 2246 01:59:27,880 --> 01:59:30,360 my work. And then what else? 2247 01:59:30,360 --> 01:59:32,680 Yeah, dude, I'm pumped. I'm, I'm headed out to 2248 01:59:33,520 --> 01:59:35,600 Switzerland. Well, first I'm going to be in 2249 01:59:35,600 --> 01:59:39,040 Turkey in October. So October 8th, I think I take 2250 01:59:39,040 --> 01:59:42,200 off for Turkey, going to spend a week and 1/2 or two weeks in 2251 01:59:42,200 --> 01:59:44,240 Greece with a very good friend of mine. 2252 01:59:44,560 --> 01:59:50,040 And then Switzerland, Italy, Uganda, Tunisia, France. 2253 01:59:50,040 --> 01:59:53,240 So like quite a run. And all of those are kind of 2254 01:59:53,240 --> 01:59:56,880 like separate mini chapters. And I'll be doing mushroom stuff 2255 01:59:56,880 --> 01:59:58,880 the whole way through, keeping the platform running. 2256 01:59:59,400 --> 02:00:01,280 So I guess those are some of the big immediate things. 2257 02:00:01,280 --> 02:00:04,120 And then as far as like what's coming up in the by the way, 2258 02:00:04,120 --> 02:00:08,880 2026 is already like stacked. Like I've got cool invites all 2259 02:00:08,880 --> 02:00:11,120 over the place. And at this point I just say, 2260 02:00:11,120 --> 02:00:14,480 yeah, you know, I'm a big like, yes, am like, you got a thing 2261 02:00:14,480 --> 02:00:16,640 going on. I'll do my best to be there. 2262 02:00:16,640 --> 02:00:18,720 And then we'll figure it out. And then we'll see what happens 2263 02:00:18,720 --> 02:00:20,440 after that. So it's looking to be 2264 02:00:20,440 --> 02:00:22,960 interesting. And then next five years. 2265 02:00:23,680 --> 02:00:27,000 Dude, it's gonna be a a struggle in some ways. 2266 02:00:27,000 --> 02:00:30,600 There's gonna be like, let's say Babylon gonna do what Babylon 2267 02:00:30,600 --> 02:00:32,800 does. It's one one of my friends shout 2268 02:00:32,800 --> 02:00:35,560 out Travis who grows mushrooms there in Colorado. 2269 02:00:35,560 --> 02:00:39,080 People probably know Travis Who? Who? 2270 02:00:39,120 --> 02:00:41,440 Yeah, he grows awesome. Travis Birkenstock. 2271 02:00:42,360 --> 02:00:44,840 Yeah, that sounds right. Yeah, it's. 2272 02:00:44,840 --> 02:00:48,120 From the movie From the movie Clueless if nobody got the oh. 2273 02:00:48,200 --> 02:00:50,840 Yeah, no Travis the man, but anyways. 2274 02:00:51,080 --> 02:00:53,360 He, he says like Babylon going to do what Babylon's going to 2275 02:00:53,360 --> 02:00:55,240 do. So anybody who thinks that like 2276 02:00:55,240 --> 02:00:58,400 they're going to, we're going to override Babylon. 2277 02:00:58,400 --> 02:01:02,280 It's like, bro, just figure out how to contend with it if you 2278 02:01:02,280 --> 02:01:05,880 can and keep 1 foot in each world if you can. 2279 02:01:05,880 --> 02:01:08,680 Because I, I maintain that like that's part of the whole 2280 02:01:08,680 --> 02:01:10,920 business. Entrepreneurship stuff is like, 2281 02:01:11,400 --> 02:01:13,080 they're not going to take you seriously. 2282 02:01:13,080 --> 02:01:17,640 Like you think that you're going to have your worldview overcome 2283 02:01:17,640 --> 02:01:20,120 another worldview that has billions of dollars and 2284 02:01:20,120 --> 02:01:23,280 connections behind it. Like so you either have the Tim 2285 02:01:23,280 --> 02:01:27,840 Leary approach is like TuneIn turn on drop out, or you can try 2286 02:01:27,840 --> 02:01:30,400 to be diplomatic. So that's where I see things 2287 02:01:30,400 --> 02:01:32,440 heading. It's like, am I under any false 2288 02:01:32,440 --> 02:01:35,640 pretenses that like, we're gonna defeat the corporate psychedelic 2289 02:01:35,640 --> 02:01:37,120 overlords? Not really. 2290 02:01:37,120 --> 02:01:39,000 Is that even a fair framing of it? 2291 02:01:39,120 --> 02:01:41,600 I don't know. But you know, I'm going to do my 2292 02:01:41,600 --> 02:01:48,120 damnedest to be there and and use satire to kind of critique 2293 02:01:48,120 --> 02:01:50,480 and challenge some of the. Dominant. 2294 02:01:50,480 --> 02:01:53,360 Hierarchical narrative, because just to wrap that thought up, I 2295 02:01:53,360 --> 02:01:55,080 think the main thing that's happening right now is 2296 02:01:55,240 --> 02:01:56,960 hierarchy. Hierarchy versus 2297 02:01:56,960 --> 02:01:59,360 decentralization. I think psychedelics are very 2298 02:01:59,360 --> 02:02:02,520 inherently decentralized. How do people get into 2299 02:02:02,520 --> 02:02:04,160 psychedelics? They've been prohibited forever. 2300 02:02:04,160 --> 02:02:05,480 It's your friend tells you about it. 2301 02:02:05,760 --> 02:02:07,040 I learned about it on this website. 2302 02:02:07,040 --> 02:02:08,360 And then my friend grows mushrooms. 2303 02:02:08,600 --> 02:02:11,440 And now there's a push to be like, well, you have to get it 2304 02:02:11,440 --> 02:02:13,440 from your friend, the government, you know, it has to 2305 02:02:13,440 --> 02:02:16,760 be patented and you got to make sure that you get it from this 2306 02:02:16,760 --> 02:02:19,240 license supply. And that's going to happen, bro. 2307 02:02:19,240 --> 02:02:22,360 That's like, so how do we push back against that? 2308 02:02:22,360 --> 02:02:28,880 I think that lawful disobedient, sorry, yeah, civil disobedience 2309 02:02:28,880 --> 02:02:32,160 is one way, Serving your community is one way. 2310 02:02:32,440 --> 02:02:34,600 And then just having a sense of humor about it and being like, 2311 02:02:34,600 --> 02:02:37,560 all right, dude, I don't need to be part of the psychedelic 2312 02:02:37,560 --> 02:02:42,160 imperial overlord hierarchy. But also, if they want to invite 2313 02:02:42,160 --> 02:02:44,760 me to their dinner party, they usually have pretty good hors 2314 02:02:44,760 --> 02:02:46,480 d'oeuvres. So I'll show up for sure. 2315 02:02:46,480 --> 02:02:49,560 But I'll be showing up with the mushrooms that my homie grew or 2316 02:02:49,560 --> 02:02:51,400 that I grew, dude. Maybe it'll go the way of the 2317 02:02:51,400 --> 02:02:55,440 dank and the heady nugs bro. I mean, look at the whole 2318 02:02:55,440 --> 02:02:57,920 cannabis industry like it's. A It's a mess, so. 2319 02:02:58,240 --> 02:03:01,680 Again, I just everything here in Michigan is so much better and. 2320 02:03:01,680 --> 02:03:07,560 Cheaper than Chicago. Dude, the Chicago cannabis, you 2321 02:03:07,560 --> 02:03:11,480 know, dispensary scene is ridiculous price wise. 2322 02:03:11,720 --> 02:03:14,120 Like what? Like I would have to imagine, 2323 02:03:14,920 --> 02:03:17,520 Yeah, I would have to imagine. Most people in Chicago are still 2324 02:03:17,520 --> 02:03:20,160 doing black market stuff big time. 2325 02:03:20,160 --> 02:03:22,640 Shout out Wolfpack, Great Michigan band. 2326 02:03:22,640 --> 02:03:25,200 You know, there's there's plenty of Oh, I love Wolfpack, dude. 2327 02:03:25,200 --> 02:03:27,160 Yeah, I figured you would. I've I've seen. 2328 02:03:27,440 --> 02:03:29,840 Theo Katzman, I don't think. I've actually seen Wolfpack, but 2329 02:03:29,840 --> 02:03:32,560 I've seen Theo a few times, but I've been listening to them for 2330 02:03:32,560 --> 02:03:36,280 a minute. Yeah, dude, like the world is 2331 02:03:36,280 --> 02:03:37,840 awesome. People are awesome. 2332 02:03:37,840 --> 02:03:40,960 And there's a saying I also like, there's always rabbit shit 2333 02:03:40,960 --> 02:03:44,160 mixed in with the Jelly beans. So like, just be aware of that. 2334 02:03:44,160 --> 02:03:47,320 And I think regardless of if you're into psychedelics or 2335 02:03:47,520 --> 02:03:51,200 whatever you're into, bro, now is the perfect time to cultivate 2336 02:03:51,200 --> 02:03:54,560 a healthy sense of humor. Because I think that is like the 2337 02:03:54,920 --> 02:03:57,800 Achilles heel of inhumanity is humor. 2338 02:03:58,000 --> 02:04:01,680 Like, you think about the way that there's a lot of what seems 2339 02:04:01,680 --> 02:04:04,080 to me like social programming and conditioning going on. 2340 02:04:04,280 --> 02:04:06,560 It's trying to rob people of their sense of humor and 2341 02:04:06,560 --> 02:04:09,360 humility. It's US versus them, this 2342 02:04:09,360 --> 02:04:11,400 person, this, that and the other is wrong. 2343 02:04:11,640 --> 02:04:14,040 And you see this all over the place and it's awash on our 2344 02:04:14,040 --> 02:04:17,080 social media timelines. If you can cultivate that sense 2345 02:04:17,080 --> 02:04:20,240 of humor, have a sense of humor about it, like it's going to be 2346 02:04:20,240 --> 02:04:22,320 very hard to fuck with those types of people. 2347 02:04:22,520 --> 02:04:25,560 Because I also think, man, look at where everything's heading 2348 02:04:25,560 --> 02:04:31,320 with AI and the post truth world facts that are up for debate. 2349 02:04:31,320 --> 02:04:34,600 Like we, we have just an absolute circus that's 2350 02:04:34,600 --> 02:04:36,840 unfolding. So why, if you're going to take 2351 02:04:36,840 --> 02:04:39,760 everything super serious, bro, that is going to be a real 2352 02:04:39,760 --> 02:04:43,760 tough, tough cookie to to to tangle with. 2353 02:04:43,760 --> 02:04:47,440 But like, if you have a sense of humor about it, then hopefully 2354 02:04:47,480 --> 02:04:50,800 we can we can at least have a good time while we're here. 2355 02:04:50,800 --> 02:04:52,640 So that's where I see the next five years going. 2356 02:04:53,080 --> 02:04:53,880 Nice. Yeah. 2357 02:04:53,880 --> 02:04:55,400 That actually kind of plays into this. 2358 02:04:55,920 --> 02:05:00,000 Philosophical thought experiment kind of thing I've been doing 2359 02:05:00,560 --> 02:05:03,560 deep in meditation called the I'm, I'm calling it the humanity 2360 02:05:03,560 --> 02:05:05,440 paradox. Like how are we here? 2361 02:05:05,920 --> 02:05:10,960 Because literally we would stab each other in the back for no 2362 02:05:10,960 --> 02:05:13,320 reason if it meant whatever we needed. 2363 02:05:13,560 --> 02:05:17,680 Yet we'd like to think of the When we think of the word 2364 02:05:17,680 --> 02:05:23,800 humanity, we think of it as, you know, like goodwill or whatever, 2365 02:05:23,800 --> 02:05:28,320 but in reality, like the history of us has been so bloody and so 2366 02:05:28,320 --> 02:05:33,080 disgusting, it's a shock to me that we are here in the capacity 2367 02:05:33,080 --> 02:05:36,200 that we are right now. Well, I want to close with one 2368 02:05:36,200 --> 02:05:37,840 bit. I heard from Paul Stamets. 2369 02:05:37,840 --> 02:05:41,480 Recently, which you know, he's a fascinating character and I was 2370 02:05:41,480 --> 02:05:44,360 in Telluride, Co for the Mushroom Festival a couple weeks 2371 02:05:44,360 --> 02:05:45,320 ago. I think I know where you're 2372 02:05:45,320 --> 02:05:49,040 going, but not but I like it. I think it's really important to 2373 02:05:49,040 --> 02:05:51,920 amplify this. Because his whole talk was about 2374 02:05:51,920 --> 02:05:55,240 what separates humanity from AI and machines. 2375 02:05:55,480 --> 02:05:57,360 And it's random acts of kindness. 2376 02:05:57,360 --> 02:06:01,800 And most people are only here and you're you're only doing as 2377 02:06:01,800 --> 02:06:05,360 well as you are because someone was kind to you in a way that 2378 02:06:05,360 --> 02:06:07,560 wasn't transactional. And that's how I try to approach 2379 02:06:07,560 --> 02:06:11,160 everything to be like, if it's cold clinical transactionality, 2380 02:06:11,160 --> 02:06:15,240 which a lot of people are pushing for, then we've lost our 2381 02:06:15,240 --> 02:06:17,480 humanity there because that's inefficient. 2382 02:06:17,560 --> 02:06:20,120 And if you were to ask a machine, as Paul Stammons had 2383 02:06:20,120 --> 02:06:23,880 said in this talk, be like, what if I was just like randomly nice 2384 02:06:23,880 --> 02:06:25,920 to this person to be like, well, what do you get out of that? 2385 02:06:25,920 --> 02:06:29,320 Where's the, you know, where's the efficiency, the clinical 2386 02:06:29,320 --> 02:06:33,400 precision there? But can we take that spirit and 2387 02:06:33,400 --> 02:06:36,240 and move it to the next chapter of humanity? 2388 02:06:36,320 --> 02:06:39,720 It remains to be seen. But if you can just be kind for 2389 02:06:39,720 --> 02:06:43,360 no reason, especially the people who can't pay you back, like 2390 02:06:43,400 --> 02:06:46,160 you're going to be fine. And I see that with ironically, 2391 02:06:46,160 --> 02:06:47,840 like some of the most successful companies. 2392 02:06:47,840 --> 02:06:50,320 I see the coolest people. They're just like, oh, yeah, 2393 02:06:50,320 --> 02:06:52,600 we're not worried about it here. How can we help you out? 2394 02:06:52,640 --> 02:06:57,400 And obviously you can't always do that without a sense of 2395 02:06:57,400 --> 02:07:00,280 business acumen. But I think that if you approach 2396 02:07:00,280 --> 02:07:03,200 life that way where it's not all about transactionality, it's 2397 02:07:03,200 --> 02:07:06,520 it's more be like, hey, can I just do a cool thing for you for 2398 02:07:06,520 --> 02:07:08,200 no reason? You're going to actually 2399 02:07:08,200 --> 02:07:11,960 ironically get way further ahead than if you take like the, you 2400 02:07:11,960 --> 02:07:15,600 know, quickest route from A to B clinical efficiency. 2401 02:07:15,600 --> 02:07:17,880 So don't do that, bro. Don't be a machine. 2402 02:07:17,880 --> 02:07:20,480 Be a random act of kindness person, human. 2403 02:07:21,040 --> 02:07:23,920 Yeah, I I heard that on Rogan and I would, I would love to 2404 02:07:23,920 --> 02:07:26,600 pick. His braid on that because you 2405 02:07:26,600 --> 02:07:30,200 know part of kind of what I just mentioned this humanity paradox 2406 02:07:31,680 --> 02:07:34,840 does does he think you know he. Might I'd have to go? 2407 02:07:34,840 --> 02:07:37,480 Back and watch, but does he think that he said that's the 2408 02:07:37,480 --> 02:07:41,080 only reason why we here so is it the snowball effect and they 2409 02:07:41,080 --> 02:07:44,160 like the like we're here because there's the this accumulation of 2410 02:07:44,160 --> 02:07:47,320 all these random acts of kindness throughout history. 2411 02:07:47,480 --> 02:07:50,720 But if that's the case, you know there's been like bottlenecks 2412 02:07:50,720 --> 02:07:54,480 from like super volcanoes and diseases and different things 2413 02:07:55,120 --> 02:07:57,080 and obviously that brings people together. 2414 02:07:57,080 --> 02:08:00,480 So is there like periods where these things come and go or is 2415 02:08:00,480 --> 02:08:06,280 it really just random as in like there's no algorithm set to pick 2416 02:08:06,280 --> 02:08:10,760 this thing up kind of a thing? I would be curious to speak more 2417 02:08:10,760 --> 02:08:11,720 about that. With him. 2418 02:08:11,720 --> 02:08:15,480 But you know, I think that's just one way of framing it and I 2419 02:08:15,480 --> 02:08:18,760 that's it's not rocket science. They there's the old trope or a 2420 02:08:18,760 --> 02:08:22,880 joke about like white guys will do mushrooms and then discover a 2421 02:08:22,880 --> 02:08:25,600 basic sense of empathy and think it's like a breakthrough or 2422 02:08:25,600 --> 02:08:27,000 whatever. But it's true. 2423 02:08:27,000 --> 02:08:30,320 I mean, that was kind of like what got me into and fascinated 2424 02:08:30,320 --> 02:08:32,320 and all this stuff. It wasn't about never, never, 2425 02:08:32,600 --> 02:08:35,960 never, never was about like healing mental health or total 2426 02:08:35,960 --> 02:08:38,360 addressable market. You know, now it's framed again 2427 02:08:38,360 --> 02:08:43,480 pathologically to be like, there's this patented O52H 2428 02:08:44,080 --> 02:08:47,560 receptor thing that's gonna, it's gonna potentially be worth 2429 02:08:47,560 --> 02:08:49,920 $2 billion. It's a blockbuster drug. 2430 02:08:49,920 --> 02:08:53,280 It's like, OK, well, that's a very separate conversation then 2431 02:08:53,280 --> 02:08:56,520 like, oh dude, I had a mushroom experience and then I wanted to 2432 02:08:56,520 --> 02:08:58,720 call my friend I haven't talked to in three years. 2433 02:08:58,720 --> 02:09:02,520 We're like, I wanted to go give a bunch of money to a charity. 2434 02:09:02,520 --> 02:09:04,360 I'm not even sure why I just wanted to do it. 2435 02:09:04,360 --> 02:09:07,000 I think that that's where I want to live, man. 2436 02:09:07,000 --> 02:09:10,600 And and again, like I love having resources and having 2437 02:09:10,600 --> 02:09:15,640 opportunities, but like, I hope that years from now I'll still 2438 02:09:15,640 --> 02:09:18,600 be that dude that will just say yes for no reason. 2439 02:09:18,600 --> 02:09:20,800 Like somebody hits me up, they want to work on a project. 2440 02:09:20,800 --> 02:09:23,160 I'll try to find a way to do it and to accommodate it. 2441 02:09:23,160 --> 02:09:26,120 And if I can't, I'll try to add some value and amplify in some 2442 02:09:26,120 --> 02:09:30,080 way rather than just that cold clinical precision 2443 02:09:30,080 --> 02:09:32,240 transactionality. Because also there's a sense 2444 02:09:32,240 --> 02:09:35,160 since we're getting into it about like seeing the end goal 2445 02:09:35,400 --> 02:09:37,200 of capitalism and kind of rejecting it. 2446 02:09:37,200 --> 02:09:40,640 And I feel like I got to see that living in San Francisco and 2447 02:09:40,640 --> 02:09:44,160 Silicon Valley and Malibu. I see and have seen people who 2448 02:09:44,160 --> 02:09:48,320 are like crazy wealthy who have these like, kind of like self 2449 02:09:48,320 --> 02:09:50,920 degenerative conditions and issues. 2450 02:09:50,920 --> 02:09:53,480 Like, you know, I've been exposed to people who live in 2451 02:09:53,480 --> 02:09:57,560 mansions by themselves who have just like boxes of stuff they 2452 02:09:57,560 --> 02:10:00,520 order from Amazon because they're trying to replace the 2453 02:10:00,520 --> 02:10:02,000 sense of community and connection. 2454 02:10:02,000 --> 02:10:05,480 It's like they, they, I saw a video recently which resonated 2455 02:10:05,480 --> 02:10:07,840 with me and I've seen this in Malibu about like people in the 2456 02:10:07,840 --> 02:10:10,720 Hamptons have everything. They've won capitalism. 2457 02:10:10,920 --> 02:10:13,640 And then they put up these big hedges and walls and they don't 2458 02:10:13,640 --> 02:10:16,440 want anyone to see them. And then they, you know, then 2459 02:10:16,600 --> 02:10:20,240 you end up having kids who like get into opiates and, you know, 2460 02:10:20,240 --> 02:10:22,280 they're trying to fill this spiritual vacuum. 2461 02:10:22,520 --> 02:10:25,400 And so there's obviously rabbit holes we could tug out there. 2462 02:10:25,400 --> 02:10:27,640 It's probably for a different. Well, I mean you that's a 2463 02:10:27,640 --> 02:10:29,480 dichotomy too, because you have one of the. 2464 02:10:29,480 --> 02:10:33,080 Richest real estate markets in the country and people are 2465 02:10:33,240 --> 02:10:34,960 taking dumps on the street everywhere. 2466 02:10:34,960 --> 02:10:39,480 So like, it's kind of, it's wild, but I mean, hopefully 2467 02:10:40,200 --> 02:10:42,720 $1,000,000 apartments with like homeless employments around 2468 02:10:42,720 --> 02:10:44,560 them. And then, yeah, people need to 2469 02:10:44,600 --> 02:10:49,320 find a way to kind of keep up with the illusion that they're 2470 02:10:49,320 --> 02:10:51,600 they're healthy and happy. And that's what we've been 2471 02:10:51,600 --> 02:10:53,880 programmed to do is like buy more do. 2472 02:10:53,920 --> 02:10:57,320 And and I think a lot of people have kind of seen that end goal 2473 02:10:57,320 --> 02:11:01,160 be like, oh, man, like having billions of dollars is almost 2474 02:11:01,160 --> 02:11:03,440 kind of like a mental illness in some way. 2475 02:11:03,480 --> 02:11:06,760 Like what I love plenty of resources for sure. 2476 02:11:07,000 --> 02:11:09,440 But like, once it gets to this point where it's like I have to 2477 02:11:09,440 --> 02:11:12,800 have a bigger yacht, you know, I have to have a bigger plane, to 2478 02:11:12,800 --> 02:11:16,680 me that's like such a misguided use of our time and resources 2479 02:11:16,680 --> 02:11:19,600 and all that. Like, am I saying I want to eat 2480 02:11:19,600 --> 02:11:21,080 out of a dumpster? No, bro. 2481 02:11:21,080 --> 02:11:24,120 Like I like caviar. I like boats and shit like that. 2482 02:11:24,120 --> 02:11:26,640 But like, that's not the end all be all for me. 2483 02:11:26,640 --> 02:11:28,920 Is that I need to have more, bigger, better. 2484 02:11:29,000 --> 02:11:30,360 It's not really. And that's yeah, it doesn't 2485 02:11:30,360 --> 02:11:32,080 really care about where the podcast goes. 2486 02:11:32,080 --> 02:11:35,360 I'm just going to keep doing it. I mean, I grew up in one of the, 2487 02:11:36,280 --> 02:11:38,640 you know, nicer. Suburbs of Detroit, Grosse 2488 02:11:38,640 --> 02:11:43,240 Pointe and you know, I know people that had their whole life 2489 02:11:43,560 --> 02:11:46,720 handed on a silver platter. They take over the parents 2490 02:11:46,760 --> 02:11:48,400 business. They've got the mansion, blah, 2491 02:11:48,400 --> 02:11:50,680 blah, blah. Oh, then they overdose because 2492 02:11:50,680 --> 02:11:54,160 they have too much time, you know, or they're, they squander 2493 02:11:54,160 --> 02:11:57,360 the business or they're gambling addicts or whatever the case may 2494 02:11:57,360 --> 02:11:59,840 be. I've grown up with tons of 2495 02:11:59,960 --> 02:12:03,920 fortunate people that you know, are no longer with us or 2496 02:12:03,920 --> 02:12:06,680 squandered everything or unfortunate and it's it is 2497 02:12:06,680 --> 02:12:11,360 unfortunate, but it I think that there is there is a lesson 2498 02:12:11,360 --> 02:12:15,400 there, which is no matter what you do, you have to put you have 2499 02:12:15,400 --> 02:12:17,400 to put some sort of energy out there. 2500 02:12:17,400 --> 02:12:21,200 You know, you can't just be content if you will, if that 2501 02:12:21,200 --> 02:12:24,080 makes sense. Dude my last bit y'all say is I 2502 02:12:24,080 --> 02:12:28,520 I've often. Being like why me God or why me 2503 02:12:28,520 --> 02:12:33,280 universe like my roommate had a trust fund and then this person 2504 02:12:33,280 --> 02:12:36,840 has this and now I feel like I'm like rushing it. 2505 02:12:37,040 --> 02:12:40,640 And part of that is because I wasn't entitled and because I 2506 02:12:40,640 --> 02:12:44,320 had to work shitty jobs and I had to take out people's trash. 2507 02:12:44,320 --> 02:12:47,640 And like there's something about just being like, you earned it 2508 02:12:47,880 --> 02:12:50,080 and when you earn it, no one can take it away from you. 2509 02:12:50,080 --> 02:12:52,600 And that's also why I'm like, dude, don't buy your followers, 2510 02:12:52,880 --> 02:12:55,360 don't flatter, don't make fake friends. 2511 02:12:55,360 --> 02:12:59,200 Like one good friend, 1 long term relationship, etcetera. 2512 02:12:59,200 --> 02:13:01,600 It's worth 100 of the other variety because the other ones 2513 02:13:01,600 --> 02:13:04,440 are going to come and go. And especially in this era, 2514 02:13:04,440 --> 02:13:07,400 people are just like, they want the fast, quick success. 2515 02:13:07,400 --> 02:13:09,400 It's like that's not success, bro. 2516 02:13:09,400 --> 02:13:12,880 That is the illusion of success. Success again, is when you sweep 2517 02:13:12,880 --> 02:13:15,160 the parking lot and then you own the building and they're like, 2518 02:13:15,160 --> 02:13:17,400 wait, why is this person still waking up at 6:00 AM? 2519 02:13:17,400 --> 02:13:20,160 And they're still devoted to, it's like, cuz that's who they 2520 02:13:20,160 --> 02:13:21,960 are, bro. Why do you think like some of 2521 02:13:21,960 --> 02:13:25,280 the wealthiest people I know are still doing all their, they're 2522 02:13:25,280 --> 02:13:27,600 trimming the trees themselves and all that, while the other 2523 02:13:27,600 --> 02:13:29,960 people are like, I need to outsource my whole life for a 2524 02:13:29,960 --> 02:13:32,160 million reasons. And so, you know, it gets long 2525 02:13:32,160 --> 02:13:35,440 winded and philosophical, but hey, we're on the mind Escape 2526 02:13:35,440 --> 02:13:37,200 podcast is the place for that, you know? 2527 02:13:37,280 --> 02:13:40,360 Yeah, man, New Telos, this is this is what it's. 2528 02:13:40,360 --> 02:13:42,840 For and. I really appreciate what you're 2529 02:13:42,840 --> 02:13:46,000 doing. And yeah, man, I mean, next time 2530 02:13:46,000 --> 02:13:48,880 you're in the Michigan area, I mean, I, I can't be traveling 2531 02:13:48,880 --> 02:13:53,400 too much these days, but if you're ever in the the zone here 2532 02:13:53,400 --> 02:13:56,080 and give me a, a ring of damn about once a year, bro, we'll do 2533 02:13:56,080 --> 02:13:57,560 that. Because my wife went to Hope 2534 02:13:57,560 --> 02:14:00,200 college. In Holland, MI, OK, yeah, we've 2535 02:14:00,200 --> 02:14:02,200 got laws in Chicago, so we usually will. 2536 02:14:02,200 --> 02:14:04,360 Drive up I'd go. To the lakes we have a friend 2537 02:14:04,360 --> 02:14:08,000 with a lake house so stay tuned bro but let's do a podcast in 2538 02:14:08,000 --> 02:14:11,400 person next time I'm out yeah man I I have all the gear 2539 02:14:11,400 --> 02:14:13,040 actually no let's. Let's do it. 2540 02:14:14,120 --> 02:14:16,240 Well, yeah, man, I really love what you're doing. 2541 02:14:16,560 --> 02:14:19,800 I love the satire. I love the community building. 2542 02:14:21,080 --> 02:14:22,880 You know, you are definitely a real one. 2543 02:14:23,000 --> 02:14:27,240 Where can people find your stuff if they're interested in the 2544 02:14:27,240 --> 02:14:30,840 podcast or what you're doing with these incubators and all 2545 02:14:30,840 --> 02:14:34,800 that stuff? Yeah, Michael Preneur MYCOPR. 2546 02:14:34,800 --> 02:14:38,360 ENEUR, any, anywhere. I've got the podcast, the 2547 02:14:38,360 --> 02:14:40,760 newsletter, the social media. Is this, that and the other. 2548 02:14:41,040 --> 02:14:43,400 Just hit me up michaelpreneur@gmail.com. 2549 02:14:43,680 --> 02:14:46,520 If you see me out and about, you know, I get around say what's up 2550 02:14:46,520 --> 02:14:49,680 to me. I'd love to connect with people 2551 02:14:49,680 --> 02:14:51,120 and hear your story and all that. 2552 02:14:51,120 --> 02:14:52,880 So yeah, thanks for having me on, dude. 2553 02:14:52,920 --> 02:14:56,360 Really appreciate if you see him in Antarctica growing mushrooms. 2554 02:14:57,200 --> 02:15:01,440 Just say what's up bro. No, but seriously, dude, keep 2555 02:15:01,440 --> 02:15:03,960 doing what you're doing. You know, I've been following 2556 02:15:03,960 --> 02:15:07,600 you and you know, I get more active and less active on social 2557 02:15:07,600 --> 02:15:09,800 media. But whenever I see something, I 2558 02:15:09,800 --> 02:15:14,040 try and, you know, retweet it or repost it or whatever. 2559 02:15:14,040 --> 02:15:17,240 And I do think a lot of what you do is hilarious because it is 2560 02:15:17,240 --> 02:15:19,080 just, you know, taking the piss out of stuff. 2561 02:15:19,080 --> 02:15:22,000 So keep doing that. And yeah, we'll link back up 2562 02:15:22,000 --> 02:15:23,360 sometime here in the near future. 2563 02:15:23,360 --> 02:15:24,880 But I really appreciate you doing this. 2564 02:15:24,880 --> 02:15:29,560 This was a a great conversation and a great way to kick off this 2565 02:15:29,560 --> 02:15:32,600 new Telos, this this mind escape new Telos. 2566 02:15:32,600 --> 02:15:35,480 So thank you so much. Well, thanks for having me. 2567 02:15:35,480 --> 02:15:37,680 I hope everyone has a a great day. 2568 02:15:37,880 --> 02:15:41,000 Afternoon, evening, wherever you are in the in the world, don't 2569 02:15:41,000 --> 02:15:43,960 be a stranger and random acts of kindness. 2570 02:15:43,960 --> 02:15:45,400 Pay it forward. Just do it. 2571 02:15:45,400 --> 02:15:48,280 Come on, guys. All right, well, we love 2572 02:15:48,280 --> 02:15:49,720 everybody. Stay safe out. 2573 02:15:49,720 --> 02:15:51,360 There, and we'll catch you next time. 2574 02:15:51,680 --> 02:15:52,240 Peace.