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Welcome to Mind Escape. 
Are you ready? 

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Are you ready to escape your 
mind? 

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Hello Mind Escapees, if you have
not already, please go check out

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my other channel Masters of 
Rhetoric. 

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I will have the link down below.
It's also part of the Mind 

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escape link tree link. 
It's something I'm very 

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passionate about where I dissect
the origins of Western thought 

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through the pre Socratic 
thinkers all the way to 

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Aristotle. 
And I'm probably going to go 

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beyond that as well at some 
point. 

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So please support Masters of 
rhetoric. 

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Go check out our YouTube channel
and subscribe. 

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There's tons of shorts on there 
already as well as episodes and 

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there's a bunch of episodes 
lined up. 

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I'm on all audio platforms with 
it. 

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And if you're on Tiktok, 
Instagram X, or any of the 

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social media platforms, please 
go check out our page on there 

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as well. 
I'd really appreciate it. 

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Thank you. 
Tonight I have an amazing 

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episode for everybody. 
I am joined by author, 

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researcher, and friend PD 
Newman. 

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We're going to be discussing his
latest book, Tripping the Trail 

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of Ghosts. 
Also, if you have not already, 

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check out his previous books. 
I have the links down below, 

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Alchemically Stoned Angels in 
Vermilion and Theergy Theory and

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Practice. 
I've had PD on more than 

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probably most other guests, 
maybe even 8 or 9 times. 

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And each time it's a fascinating
conversation. 

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He does his homework, he does 
his research, he's very well 

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versed. 
He reads probably more than most

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other people in the world. 
He's he's very well versed. 

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And if you're looking for some 
sort of esoteric book on a 

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topic, check out his social 
media 'cause he might even be 

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selling one of his books that 
he's already read through. 

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So sit back, relax, and get 
ready to trip the trail of 

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ghosts with me and PD. 
All right, welcome back on Mind 

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Escape. 
Danny, how are you? 

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Doing good. 
Good. 

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Yeah, it's been a bit. 
Yeah, I know we've been trying 

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to do this for a while since 
your book Tripping the Trail of 

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Ghosts came out. 
And it's obviously something 

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we've talked about in the past. 
I know I've had you and Greg 

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Little on at the same time, and 
we've talked about some of the 

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stuff and you've mentioned your 
Missawaska hypothesis a few 

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times, but I thought we'd kind 
of go through it a little bit 

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deeper. 
And yeah, I really appreciate 

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you doing this. 
My pleasure. 

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So just to jump right in, what 
was the catalyst for you to 

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start writing this book other 
than obviously the Missawaska 

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hypothesis? 
Well, the the hypothesis came 

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much later when I started 
looking into the material. 

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It was a result of my previous 
book on on Theergy. 

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And you know, Theergy is a late 
antique ritualistic application 

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of Platonic metaphysics, and 
it's essentially a model of soul

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ascent. 
And there are envisaged two 

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portals in the heavens, one 
where disincarnate entities exit

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the realm of material, and one 
where 3 Incarnate beings entered

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to Incarnate. 
And I was at a conference in 

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Yorkshire, fantastic conference 
called the Tie Ring of 

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Initiative. 
And Brian Morarescu who wrote 

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the immortality key, I know you 
know him, but he was there and 

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he was asking, you know, what 
was I up to? 

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And I just published Theergy 
and, and I knew he had a 

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background in, in classics. 
And so I'm describing to him the

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the model of, of theergic 
ascent. 

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And nearby to us were Dennis 
McKenna and Graham Hancock. 

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And they were talking amongst 
themselves, just like Brian and 

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I were, but they had overheard 
our conversation. 

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And Graham turns around and 
says, oh, you're talking about 

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the path of souls. 
And I said, I've, I've never 

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heard that. 
I don't know what that is. 

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I'm talking about theory. 
And I, I said, is that what some

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people call this ascent model on
theology? 

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He said, oh, no, it's, it's a 
Native American model of sole 

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ascent. 
But it's exactly what you're 

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describing with two portals in 
the sky and, you know, accessing

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the one for discarded entities 
in order to step foot on the 

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Milky Way, which is the path of 
souls proper. 

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And this is what piqued my 
interest beyond, you know, I had

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participated in, in some smoke 
and, and sweat ceremonies with 

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some Lakota natives in Memphis 
in the past, but that was about 

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the extent of, of my knowledge 
of anything regarding Native 

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American spirituality. 
And so I, you know, I jumped on 

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my phone and, and started 
researching Path of Souls in the

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first thing that came up was 
Greg Little's book, The Path of 

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Souls. 
And so I ordered it. 

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By the time I got back to 
Mississippi, the book was 

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waiting for me. 
And I, I was, the first thing 

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that struck me was the fact that
Greg lived in Memphis, you know,

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which is about an hour drive. 
That's where I was born. 

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Like I said, I was thinking, 
what are the odds that this 

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guy's this close to me? 
So I contacted him, You know, 

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we, we met up, he showed me 
around some mounds in Memphis 

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that I wasn't aware of. 
And from there, I used the 

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sources mentioned in his book, 
particularly the ones that 

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centered around F Kent Riley's 
annual or biannual conference he

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would have at Texas University, 
where he would invite academics,

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both archaeologists, 
anthropologists, as well as 

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natives, Native Americans, to 
come and try and make sense of 

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the iconography and, and what 
was previously known as the 

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Southern death cult. 
But now that term is out of 

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vogue, it's seen as offensive. 
So those texts were which turned

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out to be the source texts for 
this approach to studying the 

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iconography. 
I just began devouring them and 

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there aren't many. 
I think in all there are four or

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five source books before we get 
into secondary literature within

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this domain. 
But the more I read, not only 

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was I I completely taken aback 
by the parallels between that 

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model and the orgy because there
were no known communication 

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among these groups, I was struck
by the repeated reference to 

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plants that were discovered 
within the vicinity of these 

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mound complexes. 
When they would do analysis of, 

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of botanical assemblages, they'd
rake up soil and look for pollen

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and, and plant remains and 
seeds. 

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And pretty much in every case, 
if, if it wasn't the remains of 

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a food stuff, it was 
psychoactive or outright 

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hallucinogenic. 
And so that's what really, you 

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know, made me feel like there's 
enough here, There's enough to 

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contribute and warrant a new 
book, a new study in this 

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domain, but focusing instead, 
not just on the path of souls, 

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not just on psychedelics, but 
how those two were bridged 

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through the use of, of ritual 
that took place on these 

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mountain complexes. 
And, and once that approach 

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became my, my kind of North 
star, I started looking at the 

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complexes themselves in a whole 
different way because there were

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so many parallels between them 
and the path of souls itself. 

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So I began to develop this 
understanding that the mound 

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complexes served as a sort of 
virtual training ground for 

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living persons being taught this
information. 

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Because just like with, you 
know, in, in ancient Egypt, 

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originally only the Pharaohs 
were the ones that were because 

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the the same model exists in 
Egypt, only the Pharaohs were 

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the ones that were doing this. 
But by the time the Pyramid of 

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Unas was discovered in the 
hieroglyphs on the walls were 

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copied. 
That's where we get the Pyramid 

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texts. 
After that came this tradition 

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of what are known as the Coffin 
Texts, where this same 

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information or variation of it 
would be painted on the inside 

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of a coffin for the deceased. 
And then eventually with the the

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widespread distribution of 
papyrus, we get into a time when

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virtually anybody who could 
afford it could have their own 

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personal book of the dead, like 
the papyrus of an E that we 

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currently called the Egyptian 
Book of the Dead. 

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But there aren't one there. 
There are many of these. 

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So just like in that case, in 
the in the Native American 

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model, this was secret wisdom 
that was only available to the 

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chiefs, the elite, the shamans. 
But eventually these sodalities,

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these secret societies were 
formed that we might call it a 

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Society of shamans, where this 
wisdom was imparted 

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incrementally in the form of a 
formal degree structure so that 

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they could teach persons while 
they're alive the necessary 

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steps to take once they die, how
to get on the path of souls. 

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So yeah, that's, that's how it 
came about and how the Misopaska

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hypothesis it, it, it just 
emerged organically from this 

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this territory, especially once 
I saw the prevalence of honey 

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locust in the ethnographies and 
eventually started getting 

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familiar with it where I could 
recognize it in the archaeology.

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But honey locust is, is a, a 
native source of NNDMT that 

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grows all around the South. 
And it was intentionally 

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propagated by the Cherokee, so 
much so that the the animals 

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that used to feed on honey 
locust and distribute the seeds 

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through feeding on them are 
extinct. 

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There's nothing left that still 
feeds on the honey locust. 

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Now you you'll still see things 
like foxes that will eat the 

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seeds, but not in the amounts 
that would warrant the wide 

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dispersal we see particularly 
around sites the Cherokee 

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inhabited. 
So this is LED botanist to 

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conclude that it was being 
intentionally propagated, but 

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they were unable to come to an 
agreement as to why they were 

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being propagated, and this 
seemed to me to be the most most

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logical reason for that. 
Yeah, interesting. 

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Thank you for the the summary 
there to set this up. 

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I, yeah, I remember you reaching
out cuz Greg Little, somebody 

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that we've had on the show a 
ton, he's actually in our as 

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with and so without documentary 
as are you both sharing 

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knowledge and stories. 
But you reached out to me and 

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said, hey, can you put me in 
contact with Greg Little? 

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I said, yeah, no problem. 
Of course, I kind of had an idea

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of what was going on, and I had 
talked with Greg in the past, 

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but she was kind of, you know, a
little bit hesitant to talk 

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about his knowledge of 
psychoactive compounds and his 

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history with all that. 
But I think since you've 

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connected with him, he's 
definitely been more open about 

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it. 
And as you can see on X, he's 

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definitely posting a lot about 
the effigy pipes and things like

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that now. 
And he's a great follow on X if 

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you don't already. 
And he's the author of the 

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Encyclopedia of Native American 
Mounds, which I highly recommend

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if you're interested in that 
topic. 

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But what what I found 
interesting too, is you had 

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Christine Vanpool write the 
foreword to your book. 

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How did you connect with her and
what did you feel like she 

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brought to this hypothesis? 
Well, in addition to F Kent 

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Riley, another major figure in 
this research was a guy named 

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George E Lankford, and he 
recently passed away. 

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I believe he was living in 
Alabama, but he did so much for 

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the preservation of the folklore
of the Mississippians. 

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And in one of his papers that 
was published in a journal that 

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is owned by archaeologists in 
Arkansas, there's a series of 

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them. 
I think there are three in all. 

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But he discusses the 
significance, the relevance of 

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these noted pods. 
And they're they're pottery, but

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they're covered in little nodes 
that stick out all over them. 

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And he discusses the probability
that these are in reference to 

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Datura seed pods. 
And the thing with the 

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Mississippians is they didn't 
have a universal system of 

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writing. 
The Ojibwa did. 

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They had writing, but it wasn't 
universal. 

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So let's say that you they would
write on these Birch bark 

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scrolls. 
Let's say that you got your 

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hands on one of these scrolls. 
Even if you were a native 

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Ojibwa, you wouldn't be able to 
read it without asking the 

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person who wrote it. 
What does this mean? 

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So they had a system of of 
symbols, but they weren't 

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universal. 
In many cases, unique symbols 

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were used that without access to
the author, you'd never know 

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what it said. 
So by and large, for the most 

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part, there was no writing 
within the Mississippian 

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tradition. 
So how do you how do you 

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preserve certain sensitive 
concoctions, potions, substances

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alongside foodstuffs, especially
with children running around? 

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How? 
How do you preserve it and label

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it at the same time to let 
everyone know this is something 

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that will cause you to 
hallucinate or potentially die 

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if you take too much of it? 
And their solution was pretty 

226
00:16:27,040 --> 00:16:31,280
brilliant in my opinion. 
They would construct them either

227
00:16:31,280 --> 00:16:36,000
to resemble the things they 
contained or to resemble the 

228
00:16:36,000 --> 00:16:41,720
supernatural entity that they 
believed the substance would 

229
00:16:41,720 --> 00:16:45,800
either put you in touch with or 
protect you from. 

230
00:16:46,920 --> 00:16:56,520
So that with these noted pots 
and they were tested by Eric 

231
00:16:56,520 --> 00:17:00,320
Singleton and several other 
folks tested a number of pots 

232
00:17:00,320 --> 00:17:03,880
they found at at Spiro in 
Oklahoma and they tested 

233
00:17:03,880 --> 00:17:08,760
positive for Datira residues. 
So that was a good confirmation 

234
00:17:08,960 --> 00:17:13,400
of of Langford's theory that 
these noted pots were indeed 

235
00:17:13,720 --> 00:17:16,760
intended to resemble Datira seed
pods. 

236
00:17:17,319 --> 00:17:24,960
Now, in that study, he cites 
Christine Vanpool saying that 

237
00:17:25,079 --> 00:17:27,599
she's really the pioneer in this
territory. 

238
00:17:28,520 --> 00:17:31,280
She was the first one to propose
something like this. 

239
00:17:31,280 --> 00:17:36,440
So I looked into her work and 
sure enough, years prior to 

240
00:17:36,440 --> 00:17:42,360
Langford's work, she and her 
colleagues had been identifying 

241
00:17:43,080 --> 00:17:46,720
noted pots not in the Southeast,
what I'm studying, but in the 

242
00:17:46,720 --> 00:17:52,640
Southwest, and with the proposal
that these resemble Datura seed 

243
00:17:52,640 --> 00:17:55,560
pods. 
And so I got in touch with her 

244
00:17:55,560 --> 00:18:00,360
and, you know, kind of ran, ran 
my hypothesis, including the 

245
00:18:00,360 --> 00:18:06,480
Missiwaska hypothesis by her. 
And she was incredibly receptive

246
00:18:06,480 --> 00:18:12,680
and also incredibly supportive 
and gave me notes and gave, 

247
00:18:12,680 --> 00:18:15,560
pointed me and, and very helpful
directions. 

248
00:18:15,960 --> 00:18:20,760
And so it was, it was fairly 
natural, you know, once the book

249
00:18:20,760 --> 00:18:26,120
was done, she was who ideally I 
wanted to write the foreword. 

250
00:18:26,400 --> 00:18:31,640
And I was happily elated when 
she said she would. 

251
00:18:31,640 --> 00:18:35,440
And, and she did a great job. 
She's a, she's a phenomenal, 

252
00:18:35,520 --> 00:18:39,480
absolutely brilliant scholar in 
this, in this domain. 

253
00:18:41,120 --> 00:18:44,000
Awesome. 
Yeah, No, I, I, you know, 

254
00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:46,680
sometimes forwards it's like 
somebody's just giving their 

255
00:18:46,680 --> 00:18:49,440
endorsement or whatever. 
But I think she definitely added

256
00:18:49,800 --> 00:18:52,520
and helped set up kind of what 
you were going into there. 

257
00:18:52,520 --> 00:18:56,960
So yeah, I appreciated that in 
your introduction you start 

258
00:18:56,960 --> 00:19:04,600
talking about the MIIS ipians. 
Can you elaborate on that and 

259
00:19:04,600 --> 00:19:07,360
and what does that even mean? 
Yeah, yeah. 

260
00:19:07,360 --> 00:19:14,600
So like I said, the the Southern
death cult name applied to this 

261
00:19:14,600 --> 00:19:20,200
iconography really fell out of 
favor, especially following the 

262
00:19:20,240 --> 00:19:23,720
the conferences that were being 
held at Texas University. 

263
00:19:24,160 --> 00:19:29,480
And the participants struggled 
to find a new way to identify 

264
00:19:29,480 --> 00:19:33,720
these and an acceptable name. 
And the first one that they 

265
00:19:33,720 --> 00:19:39,960
settled on was the Southeastern 
Ceremonial complex, something 

266
00:19:39,960 --> 00:19:43,720
like that. 
And that that seemed fitting for

267
00:19:43,720 --> 00:19:49,960
a while, but eventually there 
the need arose for something 

268
00:19:49,960 --> 00:19:57,120
more specific. 
And there was another term that 

269
00:19:57,120 --> 00:20:00,240
escapes me. 
I believe the the initials are 

270
00:20:00,280 --> 00:20:06,880
Macc. 
Mississippian arc artifact or 

271
00:20:06,880 --> 00:20:13,840
something in that in that area. 
But finally, the last name, the 

272
00:20:13,840 --> 00:20:18,760
last designation that that was 
settled upon was the Miis, which

273
00:20:18,760 --> 00:20:22,120
is the Mississippian ideological
interaction sphere. 

274
00:20:23,440 --> 00:20:28,920
And this became important 
because, you know, it's, it's 

275
00:20:28,920 --> 00:20:32,120
fallacious to think of the 
Mississippians as one big 

276
00:20:32,120 --> 00:20:36,080
culture. 
It's, it's a, it's a 

277
00:20:37,760 --> 00:20:42,520
conglomeration of different 
tribes that each have in a very 

278
00:20:42,520 --> 00:20:47,160
different life ways, very 
different mythologies, you know,

279
00:20:47,200 --> 00:20:52,880
and of course, just like we see 
with neighboring groups all over

280
00:20:52,880 --> 00:20:55,200
the world, there's some 
crossover. 

281
00:20:55,680 --> 00:21:00,400
But even where that crossover 
occurs, from the academic 

282
00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:04,200
standpoint, it's important to 
maintain a distinction between 

283
00:21:04,200 --> 00:21:10,640
them and recognize this is just 
crossover and not I not, not not

284
00:21:10,640 --> 00:21:15,240
an indication that this is the 
same group or came from a 

285
00:21:15,240 --> 00:21:21,560
previous similar group. 
So interaction sphere allowed an

286
00:21:21,560 --> 00:21:27,120
approach to the problem of a 
group of of different cultures 

287
00:21:27,600 --> 00:21:33,040
interacting through shared 
iconography, even when over 

288
00:21:33,040 --> 00:21:35,640
distance. 
And throughout time, the 

289
00:21:35,640 --> 00:21:39,760
meanings attributed to that 
iconography might change. 

290
00:21:39,760 --> 00:21:43,320
Just like with with anything 
else, you know, And it's a 

291
00:21:43,320 --> 00:21:48,280
cliche, but it's, it's still 
hold in some ways, it's kind of 

292
00:21:48,280 --> 00:21:53,960
like the telephone game, you 
know, over time, the intention 

293
00:21:53,960 --> 00:21:59,720
can be to perpetuate something 
that that the speaker believes 

294
00:22:00,600 --> 00:22:06,360
was also ascribed to by his 
distant ancestors. 

295
00:22:06,360 --> 00:22:10,520
But naturally, these things 
change with the time new 

296
00:22:10,520 --> 00:22:13,960
technologies come along. 
And just like with them. 

297
00:22:14,080 --> 00:22:19,200
I'm sure you're familiar with 
Joshua Kitchens work and Jacques

298
00:22:19,200 --> 00:22:24,440
Valley where they're looking at 
the language used throughout the

299
00:22:24,440 --> 00:22:29,520
Middle Ages and the Renaissance 
to describe beings. 

300
00:22:29,960 --> 00:22:34,120
Which because we're a 
technological society, in many 

301
00:22:34,120 --> 00:22:37,960
cases we might be describing the
same things, but naturally we're

302
00:22:37,960 --> 00:22:42,280
going to opt for a technological
language to explain it, like 

303
00:22:42,280 --> 00:22:46,400
extraterrestrials or some are 
interdimensional beings. 

304
00:22:46,400 --> 00:22:53,840
Whereas being a prior to the 
emergence of quantum physics, 

305
00:22:54,720 --> 00:22:59,000
another dimension wasn't really 
language they would have had 

306
00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:02,120
access to. 
So just by us, that being our 

307
00:23:02,120 --> 00:23:05,120
fall back, we naturally explain 
it in a different way. 

308
00:23:05,120 --> 00:23:08,320
And this is true also for for 
the Mississippians. 

309
00:23:08,320 --> 00:23:12,160
By the time, especially by the 
time the colonists got here, you

310
00:23:12,160 --> 00:23:17,080
know, and they're introducing 
things like gunpowder and, and 

311
00:23:17,080 --> 00:23:22,960
distilled whiskeys, things like 
that, it it naturally once those

312
00:23:22,960 --> 00:23:27,320
things become incorporated, 
become commonplace, it becomes 

313
00:23:27,320 --> 00:23:30,600
the best way that the next 
generation can explain certain 

314
00:23:30,600 --> 00:23:33,280
phenomena. 
So we see that within the 

315
00:23:33,280 --> 00:23:36,040
interaction sphere, and by 
calling it the interaction 

316
00:23:36,040 --> 00:23:41,280
sphere, it allows for those, 
those small variations and, and 

317
00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:46,000
allows for them to receive the, 
the, the reverence, the, the and

318
00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:50,000
the respect that they deserve 
without, you know, some outsider

319
00:23:50,000 --> 00:23:52,800
coming along and saying, oh, 
you're, you're just like them 

320
00:23:52,800 --> 00:23:55,080
when they would never say that, 
you know? 

321
00:23:56,440 --> 00:23:59,680
Interesting, yeah, you mentioned
entities. 

322
00:23:59,680 --> 00:24:05,000
So like how did your thinking of
all from ghost as an apparition 

323
00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:09,480
or classical understanding of it
to more of like ghost as a 

324
00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:14,080
ritual technology? 
What do you mean in terms of the

325
00:24:14,080 --> 00:24:17,600
path of Souls itself? 
Yeah, in terms of like this 

326
00:24:17,760 --> 00:24:22,200
realm of understanding with the 
the psychedelics and the Native 

327
00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:32,200
Americans and things like that. 
Well, you know, to be 100% fair,

328
00:24:33,680 --> 00:24:37,920
I'm probably just as guilty of 
the same problem, you know, 

329
00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:41,760
because I do come from a 
background in the use of 

330
00:24:41,760 --> 00:24:46,120
entheogens and encounters with 
with beings. 

331
00:24:46,120 --> 00:24:50,920
That one person to contact you 
or an abductee might say, oh, 

332
00:24:50,920 --> 00:24:54,920
that's an alien or somebody 
that's into paranormal research 

333
00:24:54,920 --> 00:24:59,440
might say that's a ghost. 
You know, for me, especially in 

334
00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:06,080
the early stages of my research 
before I really surrendered to a

335
00:25:06,080 --> 00:25:11,040
magical worldview, which was a 
gradual process for me, it was 

336
00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:12,920
psychological. 
You know, I can't. 

337
00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:17,400
I came from a background 
studying Young and Spiel, Ryan 

338
00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:23,840
and Rank and Freud. 
So for me, my experience with 

339
00:25:23,840 --> 00:25:30,720
those substances was very much 
limited to what I believed was 

340
00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:34,320
coming from my own psyche, 
unconscious or, you know, 

341
00:25:34,600 --> 00:25:40,200
projection. 
So in that way, I'm probably 

342
00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:43,840
guilty of the same. 
But at the same time, even 

343
00:25:43,840 --> 00:25:47,480
though I'm not an academic and 
have no desire to work in 

344
00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:54,280
academia, for scholarship to be 
acceptable, there is a certain 

345
00:25:54,280 --> 00:26:02,120
way phenomena have to be 
treated, but without it being 

346
00:26:02,120 --> 00:26:04,720
outright dismissed. 
Now that's gradually changing 

347
00:26:04,720 --> 00:26:07,960
with people like cripple. 
Cripple. 

348
00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:09,160
I can't. 
I think it's cripple. 

349
00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:13,240
Yeah, Jeffrey Cripple. 
Yeah, you know, he's doing a 

350
00:26:13,240 --> 00:26:19,320
lot, as are many others, but he 
he's key, I think, in this 

351
00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:24,040
transition. 
Transition to where we can 

352
00:26:24,040 --> 00:26:26,960
approach this stuff 
phenomenologically and not 

353
00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:32,280
reductively, you know, and, and 
my future work, I'm really going

354
00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:38,080
to make more of an effort to see
things or at least communicate 

355
00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:41,040
things that way because I do see
them that way. 

356
00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:48,080
But like I said, from a 
scholarship perspective, there 

357
00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:54,360
is an apprehension and, and to 
be honest, a phobia inherent in 

358
00:26:55,640 --> 00:26:58,120
communicating this stuff in that
way. 

359
00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:07,080
You know, anthropologist, they, 
they really have the benefit in 

360
00:27:07,080 --> 00:27:12,400
that regard because if they're 
going to describe the material 

361
00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:17,560
faithfully, even if they don't 
believe it phenomenologically, 

362
00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:22,360
they still discuss it that way, 
you know, and, and I'm, I'm 

363
00:27:22,360 --> 00:27:26,480
trying to take some pages from 
their book, you know, and, and 

364
00:27:26,520 --> 00:27:29,360
incorporate that into the way I 
express these ideas. 

365
00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:32,880
So we'll see how that goes. 
But in the in my future work, 

366
00:27:32,880 --> 00:27:35,520
that's that's definitely a big 
concern for me. 

367
00:27:36,760 --> 00:27:40,720
Yeah, I mean, we all want to get
stuff right as human beings, 

368
00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:42,600
right? 
Or as long as you're, you know, 

369
00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:44,560
an honest person, right? 
There's a lot of people out 

370
00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:49,240
there grifting and, you know, 
doing not so great stuff. 

371
00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:52,160
But the people that are doing 
the work, putting in the time, 

372
00:27:52,160 --> 00:27:54,960
doing the real research, you 
want to get it right. 

373
00:27:54,960 --> 00:27:57,360
And you want it to be taken 
seriously. 

374
00:27:57,360 --> 00:28:01,600
You know, we're all we're all 
humans in that sense that we're 

375
00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:08,280
flawed and we've got cognitive 
bias and apophenia, pareidolia, 

376
00:28:08,280 --> 00:28:11,320
all these kinds of things. 
So it is kind of like a 

377
00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:14,280
tightrope walk in that regard. 
When you look at these topics 

378
00:28:14,280 --> 00:28:17,160
like the fringe topics and 
things like that and just 

379
00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:20,080
metaphysics and stuff like 
psychedelics and psychoactive 

380
00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:23,560
compounds, just stuff we don't 
know a ton about yet 

381
00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:26,560
scientifically because it's kind
of still like on the the 

382
00:28:26,560 --> 00:28:28,880
forefront of cutting edge 
research. 

383
00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:31,680
So yeah, no, I appreciate that 
approach. 

384
00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:33,840
And I think that's what makes 
you a great author too, is 

385
00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:38,640
you're not like, oh, this is how
it is and you know, this is, you

386
00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:41,440
know, a definitive take on 
things. 

387
00:28:41,440 --> 00:28:43,600
I don't, I don't like that. 
And I don't think that people 

388
00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:46,520
respond to that well either. 
And it doesn't age well usually 

389
00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:51,320
as as well. 
So what psychoactive compound 

390
00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:55,480
candidates surprised you most in
terms of its like ritual 

391
00:28:55,480 --> 00:28:57,760
sophistication while you were 
writing this book? 

392
00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:02,760
Absolutely. 
The missal Bosca hypothesis and,

393
00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:08,920
and granted it is a hypothesis, 
you know, we, we don't have any 

394
00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:15,520
conclusive findings of like 
we've, we have Datura residues, 

395
00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:21,000
we don't have DMT residues. 
And of course we wouldn't that, 

396
00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:27,600
that that particular molecule 
wouldn't survive in the way that

397
00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:32,640
the Datura scopolamine, that 
stuff can survive longer. 

398
00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:39,000
Not to mention the fact that 
virtually everything has some 

399
00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:42,880
amount of DMT in it. 
It's almost in everything. 

400
00:29:43,520 --> 00:29:47,360
So even if we did find it, 
depending on where it was found,

401
00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:51,120
what the conditions were, it 
still might not be conclusive 

402
00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:58,880
evidence, you know, but the, the
best evidence for me was in the 

403
00:29:58,880 --> 00:30:01,600
domain of archaeology and the 
ethnographies. 

404
00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:10,000
And, and it was surprising 
because we've always been told 

405
00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:16,720
that ayahuasca was a phenomenon 
unique to South America, that, 

406
00:30:16,760 --> 00:30:19,320
that no one else was doing this.
And you're, you're familiar with

407
00:30:19,320 --> 00:30:23,560
my previous research with, with 
DNP and Acacia and the roles 

408
00:30:23,560 --> 00:30:26,400
that, that played in alchemy and
Freemasonry. 

409
00:30:28,880 --> 00:30:36,200
So I was already open to the 
idea that that DMT did have a 

410
00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:41,200
prehistory that most people 
weren't aware of, simply because

411
00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:43,960
nobody is really looking at it 
at the problem in that way. 

412
00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:49,200
But that doesn't finding DMT is 
not finding ayahuasca. 

413
00:30:50,120 --> 00:30:56,240
And the, the, the math was done 
and I'm sure it would be 

414
00:30:56,240 --> 00:30:58,400
different now because new 
species have been discovered. 

415
00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:03,120
But at the time, taking into 
account all of the plants that 

416
00:31:03,120 --> 00:31:08,800
were native and and growing in 
the Amazon, in the in the Amazon

417
00:31:08,800 --> 00:31:14,040
basin, the odds of finding the 
two that would produce the 

418
00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:17,560
effect that ayahuasca does we're
astronomical. 

419
00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:23,000
It, it simply, it was considered
an impossible feet and yet it 

420
00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:28,440
happened, you know, and, and 
since those estimates were 

421
00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:31,960
arrived at, we now know that 
there, there were more than two,

422
00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:36,760
you know, while there, there is 
only the one good source of, of 

423
00:31:36,760 --> 00:31:40,240
monomine oxidase inhibitor, the 
Banisteriopsis copy vine. 

424
00:31:41,680 --> 00:31:44,640
There are numerous DMT 
containing plants. 

425
00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:48,000
The most common is the Sukkotri 
Veritas, but there's dip plop 

426
00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:52,640
terrace Cabra Rana and there's a
species of Virola that Dennis 

427
00:31:52,640 --> 00:32:01,760
McKenna studied among others. 
So, so that that raises the odds

428
00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:05,000
that it would be discovered. 
But even by raising them, it's 

429
00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:09,520
still pretty phenomenal that it 
happened that they found it. 

430
00:32:10,040 --> 00:32:17,360
So the idea that ayahuasca it 
would be being used in North 

431
00:32:17,360 --> 00:32:24,560
America and the Southeast, you 
know, it, it was pretty mind 

432
00:32:24,560 --> 00:32:27,760
blowing for me. 
It was paradigm shifting because

433
00:32:28,240 --> 00:32:33,520
we're not talking about 
importing true ayahuasca from 

434
00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:39,640
the Amazon basin. 
We're talking about a discovery 

435
00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:45,280
of two plants that are 
completely different from the 

436
00:32:45,280 --> 00:32:49,440
plants that they have access to 
down there, that there is 

437
00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:55,680
evidence that they're being 
combined to produce a chemically

438
00:32:56,160 --> 00:32:59,560
phenomenologically similar 
concoction. 

439
00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:07,880
So huge paradigm shift and the 
the plants that they're using in

440
00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:12,000
the, the way I arrived at this 
conclusion, it started with the 

441
00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:20,160
botanical assemblages because in
dozens of them I'm seeing 

442
00:33:20,280 --> 00:33:24,240
Passiflora incarnata show up, 
which is our native passion 

443
00:33:24,240 --> 00:33:28,120
flower. 
Here there are several species 

444
00:33:28,120 --> 00:33:32,200
of passion flower, but only two 
of them are known to contain 

445
00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:34,960
monomine oxidase inhibitors that
contain harmine. 

446
00:33:36,120 --> 00:33:41,120
Ours is one of them. 
And you know, for the past 20 

447
00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:48,080
years, that's that's my source 
that I use for potentiating 

448
00:33:48,080 --> 00:33:52,000
tryptamines. 
I'll take about 10 to 25 grams 

449
00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:55,880
depending on what part of the 
plant I'm using to potentiate 

450
00:33:56,080 --> 00:34:01,240
mushrooms or or or NNDMT. 
And it works with mushrooms 

451
00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:05,560
because silicon and psilocybin 
are both forms of NNDMT. 

452
00:34:05,560 --> 00:34:12,199
Psilocybin is for hydroxy NNDMT 
and silicon is for phosphoroloxy

453
00:34:12,199 --> 00:34:18,600
NNDMT and so arming and other 
Mao is interact with it and very

454
00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:23,480
much the same way increases and 
prolongs the effects also alters

455
00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:29,560
them in some ways. 
But I'm seeing this and that 

456
00:34:29,560 --> 00:34:33,960
that really got me interested. 
And what, what made me first 

457
00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:38,320
begin to suspect there might be 
something going on with the with

458
00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:48,000
the Mao is were the sketches of 
the, the Mississippians drinking

459
00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:52,960
out of these giant whilkshell 
cups, Because in the depictions 

460
00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:54,679
they're drinking it and 
vomiting. 

461
00:34:55,679 --> 00:35:00,440
And traditionally what is in the
literature is that what they're 

462
00:35:00,440 --> 00:35:05,200
drinking from these cups is 
something we call black drink. 

463
00:35:05,200 --> 00:35:09,200
I think in, in the, in Florida, 
among the Florida natives, it 

464
00:35:09,200 --> 00:35:14,800
was known as Cassina, but it's, 
it's made from Ilex vomitoria. 

465
00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:18,160
And it was given that name 
vomitoria by the botanist 

466
00:35:18,160 --> 00:35:21,120
because they would observe these
natives drink it and vomit and 

467
00:35:21,120 --> 00:35:23,880
drink it again and vomit. 
So it was assumed it was in a 

468
00:35:23,880 --> 00:35:29,760
medic. 
Well, what what Ilex vomitoria 

469
00:35:29,760 --> 00:35:35,760
is, is, is yaupon holly and it 
only grows in, you know, North 

470
00:35:35,760 --> 00:35:39,240
Mississippi, some parts of 
southern Tennessee, northern 

471
00:35:39,240 --> 00:35:42,120
Georgia and on over into 
northern Florida. 

472
00:35:42,320 --> 00:35:46,200
But what they would do is boil 
up a concoction of this stuff 

473
00:35:47,720 --> 00:35:50,600
and reduce it, make it so 
concentrated that it essentially

474
00:35:50,600 --> 00:35:56,960
became like a black syrup. 
And Fast forward to colonial 

475
00:35:56,960 --> 00:36:01,440
times, before coffee was being 
imported to the states, to the 

476
00:36:01,440 --> 00:36:09,240
colonies, the way people were 
getting their morning jolt after

477
00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:12,480
they realized drinking rum in 
the morning wasn't the most 

478
00:36:12,480 --> 00:36:18,720
productive way to start your 
day, they started making tea 

479
00:36:18,760 --> 00:36:22,800
from these leaves. 
You roast them to decarboxylate 

480
00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:25,080
them, which activates the 
caffeine in them. 

481
00:36:25,080 --> 00:36:28,680
They're the only native source 
of caffeine in North America. 

482
00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:33,080
And so I'm wondering, you know, 
how are these colonists drinking

483
00:36:33,080 --> 00:36:36,360
it to start their day? 
If it's in a medic, if it's a 

484
00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:40,360
purgative and makes you vomit? 
And so just like with anything 

485
00:36:40,360 --> 00:36:44,840
else in my research, I'm, you 
know, I'm a big take it to the 

486
00:36:44,840 --> 00:36:49,360
bench, like, like JBS Haldane, 
you know, tested on yourself and

487
00:36:49,360 --> 00:36:53,160
see what it does. 
And we had it growing all around

488
00:36:53,160 --> 00:36:58,640
our pond and the yard here. 
So I collected up all of these 

489
00:36:58,640 --> 00:37:03,120
leaves, dried, washed them, 
dried them and then roasted 

490
00:37:03,120 --> 00:37:07,200
them, ground them into a powder 
and started making tea from it. 

491
00:37:07,200 --> 00:37:13,440
And I started slow, and nothing 
happened outside of caffeine 

492
00:37:13,440 --> 00:37:15,520
buzz. 
So I'd increase the dose, I'd 

493
00:37:15,520 --> 00:37:18,920
increase the concentration. 
And at one point I even made a 

494
00:37:18,920 --> 00:37:22,600
gallon of this stuff and reduced
it down to about 10 ounces of 

495
00:37:22,600 --> 00:37:26,440
liquid. 
It tasted, you know, unbearable,

496
00:37:27,160 --> 00:37:30,640
but I didn't vomit and I never 
even got so much as nauseous. 

497
00:37:31,680 --> 00:37:34,720
So that's when I said, well, 
there's there's something else 

498
00:37:34,720 --> 00:37:36,760
going on. 
What are they drinking that's 

499
00:37:36,760 --> 00:37:40,360
making them vomit? 
If it's not, if it's this, that 

500
00:37:40,440 --> 00:37:43,440
that's not a solution. 
And it was around the same time 

501
00:37:43,440 --> 00:37:47,880
that I read Sean Rafferty's book
on on Native American and Native

502
00:37:47,880 --> 00:37:54,320
American intoxicants. 
And he notes that depending on 

503
00:37:55,160 --> 00:38:01,840
the occasion for drinking this 
black drink, the additives would

504
00:38:01,840 --> 00:38:03,720
change. 
And these additives were 

505
00:38:03,720 --> 00:38:08,360
oftentimes secret, that they 
were only known to the groups 

506
00:38:08,360 --> 00:38:10,640
drinking them for the purpose 
that we're drinking it. 

507
00:38:11,840 --> 00:38:16,040
And, you know, you know as well 
as I do the the association with

508
00:38:16,040 --> 00:38:20,240
purging in ayahuasca. 
It's even called La Purga in 

509
00:38:20,240 --> 00:38:25,320
some regions because it makes 
you vomit or come out the other 

510
00:38:25,320 --> 00:38:29,400
end, but it makes you purge. 
And so it at that time, it was 

511
00:38:29,400 --> 00:38:33,760
just a kind of a novel 
suspicion, like, you know, like 

512
00:38:33,760 --> 00:38:38,720
a what if? 
What if they were consuming a 

513
00:38:38,720 --> 00:38:43,840
form of ayahuasca? 
And so I keep digging and I find

514
00:38:43,840 --> 00:38:51,680
out that the Alex vomitoria is a
close cousin of yerba mate in 

515
00:38:51,680 --> 00:38:56,480
South America, which contains 
monomine oxidase inhibitors, 

516
00:38:56,480 --> 00:39:00,400
contains beta carbolines. 
And I thought, well, that's 

517
00:39:00,440 --> 00:39:04,000
interesting. 
You know, now we know that what 

518
00:39:04,000 --> 00:39:06,680
they're drinking would 
potentiate it if it were 

519
00:39:06,680 --> 00:39:10,720
concentrated enough. 
And then I find out that the 

520
00:39:10,720 --> 00:39:15,360
tobacco they're using, Nicotiono
rustica, contains monomine 

521
00:39:15,360 --> 00:39:18,200
oxidase inhibitors. 
So there are three potential 

522
00:39:18,200 --> 00:39:22,640
plants, all of which many of 
these tribes are using for 

523
00:39:22,640 --> 00:39:27,400
different reasons that were they
combined with the source of DMT,

524
00:39:27,840 --> 00:39:31,120
it would cause an ayahuasca like
experience. 

525
00:39:32,480 --> 00:39:37,040
And so I started going back 
through the literature looking 

526
00:39:37,040 --> 00:39:40,400
for a tree or another type of 
plant. 

527
00:39:40,400 --> 00:39:43,400
But first I was looking for a 
tree, largely because of my 

528
00:39:44,040 --> 00:39:48,240
previous research into Acacia 
for a tree here that would meet 

529
00:39:48,240 --> 00:39:54,760
that criteria, and I found it in
none of the academic sources. 

530
00:39:55,160 --> 00:39:58,880
The only place I found it was in
a book called Some Simple 

531
00:39:58,880 --> 00:40:02,480
Tryptamines by Keeper of the 
Trout, which is a classic and 

532
00:40:02,480 --> 00:40:11,440
psychedelic literature, but he 
had tested the the roots of a 

533
00:40:11,440 --> 00:40:14,480
honey locust tree. 
And found that they contained 

534
00:40:14,480 --> 00:40:17,040
NNDMT in them, which isn't 
surprising. 

535
00:40:17,480 --> 00:40:20,120
Honey locust. 
Now it's classified as Gliditzia

536
00:40:20,120 --> 00:40:24,280
triocanthos, but prior to that 
reclassification it was known as

537
00:40:24,280 --> 00:40:29,920
Acacia Americana. 
And we know that there are 

538
00:40:29,920 --> 00:40:34,000
hundreds of species of Acacia 
that contain DMT either in the 

539
00:40:34,000 --> 00:40:38,640
roots and the leaves and the 
flowers and the the external 

540
00:40:38,640 --> 00:40:45,160
bark. 
But just like with with the 

541
00:40:45,160 --> 00:40:48,960
Jerima preda, the the Mimosa 
hostilis, which was previously 

542
00:40:49,040 --> 00:40:53,000
Acacia Tinua flora in South 
America with, with Clifton Sea 

543
00:40:53,000 --> 00:40:55,160
of Trey campus, it's in the 
roots. 

544
00:40:55,840 --> 00:41:01,960
And that became my focus for the
next, you know, several months 

545
00:41:01,960 --> 00:41:05,640
trying to find any evidence that
this would have been used. 

546
00:41:05,640 --> 00:41:10,000
And the evidence came when I was
reading the work of James 

547
00:41:10,000 --> 00:41:11,800
Mooney. 
And James Mooney was very 

548
00:41:11,800 --> 00:41:16,000
important figure also in 
southeastern ethnographies. 

549
00:41:16,320 --> 00:41:21,440
He was a big proponent, big 
supporter of the natives rights 

550
00:41:21,600 --> 00:41:26,120
to use peyote when the when 
their their peyote ceremonies 

551
00:41:26,120 --> 00:41:28,720
were trying to be shut down by 
the US government. 

552
00:41:31,040 --> 00:41:34,240
He was a major figure and making
sure that didn't happen. 

553
00:41:34,760 --> 00:41:40,440
Well, he also did some work and 
the Southeastern territories for

554
00:41:40,440 --> 00:41:44,360
the Smithsonian and in the 
Smithsonian's publication of the

555
00:41:44,360 --> 00:41:49,320
Myths of the Cherokee, I found 
my smoking gun. 

556
00:41:49,320 --> 00:41:55,080
I mean they would use it. 
What he first notes about it is 

557
00:41:55,080 --> 00:41:57,840
that they would use it in their 
ball games. 

558
00:41:57,840 --> 00:42:01,920
The the Cherokee have a kind of 
lacrosse like ball game that 

559
00:42:01,920 --> 00:42:05,240
they would play and what the 
sticks would be made from a 

560
00:42:05,240 --> 00:42:07,480
honey locust that had been 
struck by lightning. 

561
00:42:08,040 --> 00:42:10,160
That was my first reference. 
And I thought, well, that's not 

562
00:42:10,160 --> 00:42:13,320
proof that they're consuming it,
but we know it's sacred to them.

563
00:42:14,520 --> 00:42:18,280
And then he goes on to say that 
when they play, they take the 

564
00:42:18,280 --> 00:42:21,720
ash from where it was struck by 
lightning and they draw crosses 

565
00:42:22,040 --> 00:42:25,920
on their shoulders. 
And then they take the roots and

566
00:42:25,920 --> 00:42:30,120
chew on them while they play. 
And now chewing the roots 

567
00:42:30,400 --> 00:42:33,160
because there's no beta 
carbolenes, no monomineoxase 

568
00:42:33,160 --> 00:42:36,680
inhibitor in the plant, it's 
doubtful that that would cause 

569
00:42:36,680 --> 00:42:41,760
any kind of effect. 
But remember, they are also 

570
00:42:41,760 --> 00:42:45,720
smoking tobacco that has 
monomineoxase inhibitors in it. 

571
00:42:45,720 --> 00:42:48,760
They're also drinking black 
drink before these games that 

572
00:42:48,760 --> 00:42:52,280
has monomineoxidase inhibitors. 
And they would, they're, they 

573
00:42:52,280 --> 00:42:54,840
were in the habit of spitting 
the juices out and rubbing it on

574
00:42:54,840 --> 00:42:57,760
their bodies. 
And I'm sure you're familiar 

575
00:42:57,760 --> 00:43:02,840
with Terence Mckenna's book True
Hallucinations, where he goes to

576
00:43:02,840 --> 00:43:07,200
LA Charera looking for Ukuhe, 
this orally active DMT that 

577
00:43:07,200 --> 00:43:10,000
doesn't have a monomenoxase 
inhibitor in it. 

578
00:43:10,640 --> 00:43:14,480
And in searching for that, he 
meets a shaman that explains to 

579
00:43:14,480 --> 00:43:16,480
them that it's also used in 
warfare. 

580
00:43:16,760 --> 00:43:20,760
That if one shaman is battling 
another, they'll sneak to his 

581
00:43:20,760 --> 00:43:25,320
house and rub Ukuhe on the rungs
of the ladder that they used to 

582
00:43:25,320 --> 00:43:28,440
climb up on top of their house 
to do certain ceremonies. 

583
00:43:28,960 --> 00:43:33,000
So that once they get up there 
it the Kuhei, the DMT would soak

584
00:43:33,000 --> 00:43:37,240
into their hands, cause them to 
become off balance, they'll fall

585
00:43:37,240 --> 00:43:39,760
off the house and and die or be 
injured. 

586
00:43:40,440 --> 00:43:44,640
So it was a form of warfare and 
a good indication that it is 

587
00:43:44,640 --> 00:43:48,960
transdermally absorbable even 
without a monoamine oxidase 

588
00:43:48,960 --> 00:43:52,480
inhibitor. 
So that was exciting. 

589
00:43:52,480 --> 00:43:57,360
But we still hadn't arrived at 
anything specifically like an 

590
00:43:57,360 --> 00:44:04,120
ayahuasca resembling concoction.
And in the same text, it gets 

591
00:44:04,120 --> 00:44:09,400
into the myths now in, in, in 
the, the native, the in the 

592
00:44:09,400 --> 00:44:13,960
tribes of the Southeast, there's
a prevalent myth of these two 

593
00:44:13,960 --> 00:44:16,200
twins. 
They call them the hero twins. 

594
00:44:17,480 --> 00:44:22,960
One of them was raised by the 
father, the other one was thrown

595
00:44:22,960 --> 00:44:24,720
away. 
And why he was thrown away 

596
00:44:24,720 --> 00:44:29,520
changes with the tribes. 
But the the most common 

597
00:44:29,640 --> 00:44:33,160
variation is that the father's 
gone hunting. 

598
00:44:33,160 --> 00:44:35,120
The mother is pregnant with 
twins. 

599
00:44:35,680 --> 00:44:41,200
This evil being, this 
underground being comes and 

600
00:44:41,200 --> 00:44:44,800
mauls her and kills her. 
The father comes home and finds 

601
00:44:44,800 --> 00:44:49,720
her dead, but he can see that 
there's movement in her womb and

602
00:44:49,720 --> 00:44:54,120
so he cuts the womb open and 
takes the baby, not realizing 

603
00:44:54,120 --> 00:44:59,160
there are two babies in there 
and he throws the remains into a

604
00:44:59,160 --> 00:45:06,480
nearby pool. 
So the second baby gets kind of 

605
00:45:06,680 --> 00:45:11,480
adopted by these same the the 
emissaries of the same below 

606
00:45:11,480 --> 00:45:14,600
world being that killed the 
mother and he gets raised in the

607
00:45:14,600 --> 00:45:17,760
below world. 
And because of this, he knows 

608
00:45:17,760 --> 00:45:20,200
magic. 
He's learned magic from them. 

609
00:45:20,200 --> 00:45:26,480
So while lodge boy, the first 
boy he's raised in a political 

610
00:45:26,480 --> 00:45:30,160
kind of a setting where he's 
raised to be a leader, thrown 

611
00:45:30,160 --> 00:45:34,600
away is raised to be a magician 
and he's wild, whereas the other

612
00:45:34,600 --> 00:45:40,560
is civilized. 
So in the story, the wild one 

613
00:45:41,080 --> 00:45:47,160
approaches his father's Hut. 
And this story, this likely 

614
00:45:47,160 --> 00:45:52,480
served as what's known as a 
charter to explain actual rites 

615
00:45:52,480 --> 00:45:55,360
of passage that young boys would
have gone through. 

616
00:45:55,680 --> 00:46:01,640
So the, the myth becomes it, it,
it begins to inform the, the 

617
00:46:01,640 --> 00:46:06,640
ritual itself, the the boys are,
are playing the role of thrown 

618
00:46:06,640 --> 00:46:11,360
away in this rite of passage, 
becoming recognized as the child

619
00:46:11,360 --> 00:46:13,960
of this father. 
So the boy approaches the 

620
00:46:13,960 --> 00:46:17,240
father's Hut and tells him, I'm 
your son. 

621
00:46:17,480 --> 00:46:21,400
And the father says, well, that 
remains to be seen and we'll 

622
00:46:21,400 --> 00:46:24,360
have to do some tests to, to 
find out. 

623
00:46:24,360 --> 00:46:27,400
He says, until we get ready, 
have a seat right over here. 

624
00:46:27,720 --> 00:46:32,120
And this is the first Test, and 
it's a, it's blankets on the 

625
00:46:32,120 --> 00:46:34,680
ground. 
Unbeknownst to him, beneath 

626
00:46:34,680 --> 00:46:38,040
those blankets are thorns from 
the honey locust tree. 

627
00:46:38,240 --> 00:46:43,400
And honey locust thorns, they 
can get 12 to 14 inches long. 

628
00:46:43,400 --> 00:46:47,240
They're huge, long thorns, 
extremely sharp. 

629
00:46:48,640 --> 00:46:50,880
And he sits down and it doesn't 
harm him. 

630
00:46:51,720 --> 00:46:57,840
And so that's taken as the 
there's 33 tests, very classic 

631
00:46:58,000 --> 00:47:01,920
Van Gannett rite of passage. 
And it doesn't harm him. 

632
00:47:02,320 --> 00:47:06,240
So once it doesn't harm him, the
father says, OK, let me see. 

633
00:47:06,240 --> 00:47:10,360
How will you fare playing 
stickball against my other sons?

634
00:47:10,360 --> 00:47:12,120
Because by this part, he's got 
more sons. 

635
00:47:13,360 --> 00:47:18,640
And the mother pulls him aside, 
the new wife, and she whispers 

636
00:47:18,640 --> 00:47:21,360
to him that they're going to 
cheat. 

637
00:47:22,440 --> 00:47:25,360
And another version, she tells 
him that you can't win, you're 

638
00:47:25,360 --> 00:47:29,560
one against many. 
And she's so she says you have 

639
00:47:29,560 --> 00:47:35,920
the power of lightning. 
If you strike lightning at or in

640
00:47:35,920 --> 00:47:40,280
the direction of your father's 
honey locust tree, he'll 

641
00:47:40,280 --> 00:47:42,960
immediately stop the game 
because he doesn't want to lose 

642
00:47:42,960 --> 00:47:45,760
that tree. 
And so he goes out, they start 

643
00:47:45,760 --> 00:47:48,560
playing stickball, and he 
strikes lightning at the tree 

644
00:47:49,040 --> 00:47:51,440
just like she said. 
The father says, Nope, stop, 

645
00:47:51,800 --> 00:47:54,440
this ain't happening. 
You ain't killing my honey Lucas

646
00:47:54,440 --> 00:47:56,560
tree. 
And he brings them in for the 

647
00:47:56,560 --> 00:48:00,560
third and final Test. 
And this is the one that really 

648
00:48:01,400 --> 00:48:05,560
opened the possibility of an 
ayahuasca analogue in the 

649
00:48:05,560 --> 00:48:09,480
Southeast. 
He has the boy climbed into a 

650
00:48:09,480 --> 00:48:15,800
giant cauldron, a giant pot, and
in the pot with him are the 

651
00:48:15,800 --> 00:48:20,320
roots of the honey locust tree. 
Remember, the roots are where 

652
00:48:20,600 --> 00:48:27,760
the molecule is located and he's
boiled in this pot and if it 

653
00:48:27,760 --> 00:48:31,880
doesn't kill him, that's the 
final proof that he's this 

654
00:48:31,880 --> 00:48:36,640
immortal God like being that is 
really the twin of lodge boy. 

655
00:48:38,360 --> 00:48:43,880
So there are artifacts that back
this up and, and one example is 

656
00:48:43,880 --> 00:48:49,200
a, a, a gorget that they'd carve
from shells, the same Welt 

657
00:48:49,200 --> 00:48:51,320
shells they would drink the 
substance out of. 

658
00:48:52,000 --> 00:48:55,520
And in the gorget, 
archaeologists were dumbfounded 

659
00:48:55,520 --> 00:48:58,400
as to what it represented 
because it shows a humanoid 

660
00:48:58,400 --> 00:49:04,480
figure in a, in a definite 
circle, A2 edge circle. 

661
00:49:04,480 --> 00:49:08,600
So a lip, a rim, and he's 
surrounded by all these squiggly

662
00:49:08,600 --> 00:49:11,640
curly lines. 
And archaeologists never knew 

663
00:49:11,640 --> 00:49:14,000
what this was. 
So they gave them the name, the 

664
00:49:14,000 --> 00:49:17,200
spaghetti style gorgettes or 
gorgettes because they look like

665
00:49:17,200 --> 00:49:19,200
they have spaghetti noodles in 
them. 

666
00:49:20,920 --> 00:49:26,920
But after reading that that that
description for Mooney, I 

667
00:49:26,920 --> 00:49:32,440
thought, could that be the boy 
in the pot with these roots? 

668
00:49:32,920 --> 00:49:36,440
And so I started digging on any 
description of this gorget and 

669
00:49:36,440 --> 00:49:40,320
finally come across this paper 
by F Kent Riley where he draws 

670
00:49:40,320 --> 00:49:44,800
it not from an aerial 
perspective, but 3D and says 

671
00:49:44,800 --> 00:49:48,720
this is a depiction of a 
humanoid figure in a boiling 

672
00:49:48,720 --> 00:49:50,320
pot. 
We don't know what the curly 

673
00:49:50,320 --> 00:49:56,000
lines are, but it's somebody in 
a pot being boiled and you know 

674
00:49:56,040 --> 00:49:59,760
that that for me, I I said what 
there, let's let's keep pushing,

675
00:49:59,760 --> 00:50:04,920
let's keep digging. 
And the, IT, it was out of that 

676
00:50:05,000 --> 00:50:10,320
that I really began to entertain
the possibility and got the 

677
00:50:10,320 --> 00:50:13,520
nerve to put it in writing that 
I think this could be what's 

678
00:50:13,520 --> 00:50:17,920
going on. 
And, and Christine Van Poole 

679
00:50:18,680 --> 00:50:22,880
invited me to the Society of 
American Archaeologists 

680
00:50:23,320 --> 00:50:26,600
conference in New Orleans and 
asked me to present this 

681
00:50:26,600 --> 00:50:29,280
material. 
And I was very nervous because I

682
00:50:29,280 --> 00:50:34,040
was the only person there that 
didn't have a PhD or wasn't 

683
00:50:34,760 --> 00:50:39,880
studying to get his PHDI felt 
like I didn't really, I had, you

684
00:50:39,880 --> 00:50:42,800
know, imposter syndrome all over
me going into this place. 

685
00:50:44,200 --> 00:50:46,840
So I presented the material with
a lot of conditionals, you know,

686
00:50:46,840 --> 00:50:50,040
a lot of if then or maybe 
perhaps. 

687
00:50:51,440 --> 00:50:55,400
But afterwards it was 
overwhelmingly well received. 

688
00:50:55,400 --> 00:51:01,320
And I even had one very 
prominent scholar in this field 

689
00:51:01,320 --> 00:51:04,440
come and tell me you, you can 
remove the conditionals. 

690
00:51:04,760 --> 00:51:06,800
He said you. 
This is the closest we've got to

691
00:51:06,840 --> 00:51:10,280
a solution to what's going on 
with the gorgets, with these 

692
00:51:10,280 --> 00:51:14,320
particular ethnographies, with 
why these plants were so 

693
00:51:14,320 --> 00:51:18,840
revered, this particular tree 
and you know, so it was very 

694
00:51:18,840 --> 00:51:23,000
well received. 
And since then we've gotten even

695
00:51:23,000 --> 00:51:26,560
more confirmation. 
And this came from Greg Little. 

696
00:51:27,400 --> 00:51:31,800
You know, he, he likes to post 
on his, his Twitter feed, his ex

697
00:51:31,800 --> 00:51:37,040
feed pots and, and, and mounds 
and gorgettes. 

698
00:51:37,040 --> 00:51:43,000
But he posted a picture of of a 
play pot I had never seen and it

699
00:51:43,000 --> 00:51:48,680
was a pot with a humanoid figure
inside of it, just like the 

700
00:51:48,680 --> 00:51:51,240
gourget, but it comes from a 
different tribe, you know? 

701
00:51:51,240 --> 00:51:56,560
So this is a good example of how
they can have the same icon, but

702
00:51:56,560 --> 00:52:01,640
the description and the 
execution of it will change, but

703
00:52:01,640 --> 00:52:05,920
very likely indicative of the 
same myth or a variation 

704
00:52:06,000 --> 00:52:08,840
thereof. 
So yeah, that that that was by 

705
00:52:08,840 --> 00:52:14,400
far the most shocking and I 
think paradigm shifting, not 

706
00:52:14,400 --> 00:52:20,600
just for me, but for the whole 
study of what was going on with 

707
00:52:20,600 --> 00:52:24,480
the Path of Souls with the the 
southeastern natives and, and 

708
00:52:24,480 --> 00:52:26,280
all of those tribes involved in 
it. 

709
00:52:27,800 --> 00:52:31,640
Yeah, that's super interesting. 
And I mean, you know, it makes 

710
00:52:31,640 --> 00:52:34,680
sense. 
Your, your research isn't 

711
00:52:37,040 --> 00:52:42,960
predicated on, you know, like 
you said, you, you actually try 

712
00:52:42,960 --> 00:52:47,400
these compounds, you try to 
recreate these scenarios. 

713
00:52:47,400 --> 00:52:52,040
So yeah, I mean, I think that 
that's what's missing from a lot

714
00:52:52,040 --> 00:52:55,720
of other people's research too, 
is taking it from the 

715
00:52:55,720 --> 00:53:01,280
hypothetical or a hypothesis to 
actually a theory or trying to 

716
00:53:01,280 --> 00:53:03,480
test the hypothesis or something
like that. 

717
00:53:03,480 --> 00:53:06,520
So I think that that's just 
another reason why I appreciate 

718
00:53:06,520 --> 00:53:09,000
your work is you're willing to 
put yourself out there and 

719
00:53:09,280 --> 00:53:11,720
you're honest with yourself, 
like, hey, I don't know if this 

720
00:53:11,720 --> 00:53:14,840
is true, but let me, you know, 
put it out there and see what 

721
00:53:14,840 --> 00:53:16,880
actual academics have to say 
about it. 

722
00:53:16,880 --> 00:53:23,000
So no, that's awesome. 
In chapter 2, Cavern of Sacred 

723
00:53:23,000 --> 00:53:29,280
Visions, what makes a cave more 
than just geology or a place? 

724
00:53:29,280 --> 00:53:33,480
Like what makes it a machine or 
something transformative? 

725
00:53:35,640 --> 00:53:42,680
That's a good question. 
When you look at the origin 

726
00:53:42,680 --> 00:53:47,400
myths of a number of different 
tribes and groups in the 

727
00:53:47,400 --> 00:53:53,680
Southeast, you see caves here in
Mississippi that the Choctaw, 

728
00:53:53,680 --> 00:53:57,440
the band of Choctaw recently 
reacquired the land where on 

729
00:53:58,560 --> 00:54:03,200
their sacred cave exists. 
And their origin myth is that 

730
00:54:03,200 --> 00:54:09,440
their people formed within a 
mound, Nani way, a mound like a 

731
00:54:09,480 --> 00:54:13,480
like a big belly, but then 
emerge from a cave. 

732
00:54:13,480 --> 00:54:17,320
So you see this 
anthropomorphization of the 

733
00:54:17,320 --> 00:54:23,040
earth as womb and vulva. 
And from this, the people are 

734
00:54:23,040 --> 00:54:31,440
born like babies. 
And when you're looking at the 

735
00:54:31,440 --> 00:54:36,760
Mississippian iconography that's
so prevalent in the Southeast, 

736
00:54:39,040 --> 00:54:42,640
the Mississippians proper only 
go back to about 1000 AD, 

737
00:54:43,600 --> 00:54:50,680
whereas the iconography itself 
shows up much earlier in a place

738
00:54:50,680 --> 00:54:58,600
called Picture Cave. 
And Picture Cave is is located 

739
00:54:58,680 --> 00:55:04,960
at a secret location on private 
land in Missouri. 

740
00:55:05,160 --> 00:55:11,560
And within it there are 
something like 300 petroglyphs 

741
00:55:12,560 --> 00:55:19,040
that are that predate that 
thousand AD dating for the 

742
00:55:19,040 --> 00:55:22,600
origin of the Mississippians. 
And it's where we're first 

743
00:55:22,600 --> 00:55:27,240
introduced to a number of these 
supernatural figures like like 

744
00:55:27,240 --> 00:55:33,760
red horn and the underwater 
Panther and the the great 

745
00:55:33,760 --> 00:55:41,080
serpent, the horn serpent. 
And they show up in there and 

746
00:55:42,120 --> 00:55:47,000
recent dating of some of the 
petroglyphs in there. 

747
00:55:47,720 --> 00:55:52,160
I don't want to give away the 
material because the paper I 

748
00:55:52,160 --> 00:55:56,560
don't think has been published 
yet, but it shows a much earlier

749
00:55:56,560 --> 00:56:00,880
date than what has been imagined
for the Mississippians. 

750
00:56:01,560 --> 00:56:06,520
So that cave, just like with the
Naniweya cave for the Choctaw, 

751
00:56:07,920 --> 00:56:11,120
it's sort of the birth place of 
the Mississippians. 

752
00:56:11,120 --> 00:56:14,640
It's the, it's where we see the 
earliest examples of the 

753
00:56:14,640 --> 00:56:20,920
iconography that defines them 
and, and caves. 

754
00:56:22,840 --> 00:56:26,920
They, they, they've always been 
sought out in regions where they

755
00:56:26,920 --> 00:56:32,800
exist by those seeking visions, 
by shamans, by people undergoing

756
00:56:32,800 --> 00:56:37,920
rites of passage. 
And it's, it's akin to what John

757
00:56:37,920 --> 00:56:42,200
C Lilly was doing with his float
tanks, because you can't hear 

758
00:56:42,200 --> 00:56:44,120
anything once you're deep in 
there. 

759
00:56:44,120 --> 00:56:47,800
You can't see anything once 
you're in the dark zone, so it 

760
00:56:47,800 --> 00:56:51,320
effectively becomes a sensory 
deprivation bank. 

761
00:56:51,840 --> 00:56:58,200
And through trans induction 
techniques, through fasting, 

762
00:56:58,200 --> 00:57:02,480
through physical torture, 
scarification, and through the 

763
00:57:02,480 --> 00:57:09,560
consumption of entheogenic or 
psychoactive plants, the the 

764
00:57:09,560 --> 00:57:15,080
effects of that, of that 
isolation can bring about 

765
00:57:15,080 --> 00:57:21,440
intense visionary experiences. 
And that's likely what was what 

766
00:57:21,440 --> 00:57:24,440
is what was taking place in 
picture cave. 

767
00:57:25,680 --> 00:57:30,200
And, and the, the natives that 
visited this were from all over.

768
00:57:30,200 --> 00:57:34,240
Some of them would travel 1000 
miles to get to this cave. 

769
00:57:34,960 --> 00:57:37,840
And the, the, the time span is 
also great. 

770
00:57:38,720 --> 00:57:43,320
So it's very possible that that 
it had a number of different 

771
00:57:43,560 --> 00:57:46,840
uses. 
I imagine, and this is just 

772
00:57:46,840 --> 00:57:52,800
speculation, but imagine that 
the early uses probably were 

773
00:57:53,360 --> 00:57:58,400
that sensory deprivation model 
and whatever visions were seen 

774
00:57:58,600 --> 00:58:01,440
emerging from the walls of this 
cave. 

775
00:58:01,880 --> 00:58:05,720
Just like is proposed with 
Neanderthal art and caves in 

776
00:58:05,720 --> 00:58:09,800
France, it's been proposed that 
what they saw they then 

777
00:58:09,800 --> 00:58:14,480
immortalized by painting or 
etching or, you know, depicting 

778
00:58:14,480 --> 00:58:23,120
on the spot where they saw it. 
Now over time, The Cave, once 

779
00:58:23,120 --> 00:58:27,400
pictures are there, I think it's
a natural evolution that others 

780
00:58:27,400 --> 00:58:30,760
will come in and add to the art 
and the art. 

781
00:58:31,720 --> 00:58:35,480
We live in a in a time when all 
of these different domains have 

782
00:58:35,480 --> 00:58:39,600
been separated, demarcated. 
We don't think about religion as

783
00:58:39,600 --> 00:58:42,400
being art or medicine as being 
magic. 

784
00:58:42,680 --> 00:58:44,360
You know, all these things are 
separated. 

785
00:58:44,800 --> 00:58:47,280
But for indigenous cultures, 
that's not the case. 

786
00:58:47,360 --> 00:58:50,120
Everything is sacred. 
Everything participates in the 

787
00:58:50,120 --> 00:58:54,200
sacred. 
Religion as such doesn't exist 

788
00:58:54,240 --> 00:58:57,960
because everything is a 
religious activity for them. 

789
00:58:58,320 --> 00:59:00,400
They're the secular does not 
exist. 

790
00:59:01,680 --> 00:59:08,400
So once art has been left on 
these walls of this cave, for 

791
00:59:08,400 --> 00:59:13,440
whatever reason, it's only a 
natural next step for other art 

792
00:59:13,440 --> 00:59:19,000
to be added. 
And I think the and again, I'm 

793
00:59:19,000 --> 00:59:23,760
speculating, but I think what 
probably took place is because 

794
00:59:23,760 --> 00:59:27,480
what's being depicted isn't 
everyday activities. 

795
00:59:27,480 --> 00:59:30,320
It's supernatural beings from 
their own mythology. 

796
00:59:31,080 --> 00:59:37,120
It opened up the door for kind 
of a, a prototypical television 

797
00:59:37,840 --> 00:59:44,520
in a way where the images can be
shown one at a time to deliver a

798
00:59:44,520 --> 00:59:48,760
narrative to an A candidate to 
an initiate that's coming there 

799
00:59:48,760 --> 00:59:54,440
to be initiated into the secret 
supernatural wisdom that that 

800
00:59:54,440 --> 00:59:56,000
was shared by a number of 
tribes. 

801
00:59:56,000 --> 00:59:58,280
Because it wasn't just one tribe
using it. 

802
00:59:58,280 --> 01:00:01,680
It's all different tribes. 
You know, and that speaks also 

803
01:00:01,680 --> 01:00:07,480
to the, the, the unifying 
element of it because of, you 

804
01:00:07,480 --> 01:00:13,240
know, rating was a real, it was 
a reality for a number of 

805
01:00:13,240 --> 01:00:16,080
tribes. 
You rated other tribes and, and 

806
01:00:16,080 --> 01:00:21,320
how well you rated them was 
largely how much of a man you 

807
01:00:21,320 --> 01:00:25,160
were considered, how much honor 
you had was based on your 

808
01:00:25,160 --> 01:00:26,880
success at rating other 
villages. 

809
01:00:27,680 --> 01:00:33,080
So I think it's a testimony to 
The Cave and to the natives 

810
01:00:33,080 --> 01:00:37,320
themselves that this place 
transcended that, that once they

811
01:00:37,320 --> 01:00:40,280
were there, the differences 
didn't matter a lot. 

812
01:00:40,280 --> 01:00:44,000
Like in a Masonic Lodge, you 
know, you might have Jews and 

813
01:00:44,000 --> 01:00:48,040
Muslims battling in war right 
now, but the minute they step 

814
01:00:48,040 --> 01:00:51,120
into a lodge that's gone. 
You saw that in the Civil War 

815
01:00:52,200 --> 01:00:56,760
where a, a man who's a Mason in 
the North, coming down to the 

816
01:00:56,760 --> 01:01:01,400
South, he'd encounter a, a 
Confederate Mason and their 

817
01:01:01,400 --> 01:01:06,520
stories, I've heard numerous 
stories where they say don't 

818
01:01:06,520 --> 01:01:08,680
touch him, don't touch his 
family, don't touch his house. 

819
01:01:08,680 --> 01:01:12,000
That's my brother, you know. 
So the difference is, just like 

820
01:01:12,000 --> 01:01:15,200
with with those scenarios within
this cave, the differences fell 

821
01:01:15,200 --> 01:01:21,720
away and it became this magical 
theatre, really like a 

822
01:01:21,720 --> 01:01:24,120
television. 
Because once you get in the dark

823
01:01:24,120 --> 01:01:27,880
zones where the art exists, you 
can't see. 

824
01:01:28,240 --> 01:01:31,080
And their only method of seeing 
would have been with a torch. 

825
01:01:31,520 --> 01:01:35,840
And with a torch, the light 
doesn't go very far. 

826
01:01:36,600 --> 01:01:41,280
They would have been able to 
illuminate 1 icon at a time, so 

827
01:01:41,400 --> 01:01:44,600
they would have been presented 
sequentially, which would 

828
01:01:44,600 --> 01:01:46,760
naturally lend itself to a 
narrative. 

829
01:01:47,360 --> 01:01:51,640
And I think this is probably 
where a lot of the the 

830
01:01:51,960 --> 01:01:56,680
narratives emerged from for a 
number of different tribes. 

831
01:01:57,200 --> 01:01:59,720
You know, even though, again, 
they change over space, they 

832
01:01:59,720 --> 01:02:02,760
change over time. 
But it does become this magic 

833
01:02:02,760 --> 01:02:08,680
time capsule where something 
resembling theater or television

834
01:02:09,280 --> 01:02:13,960
is made possible. 
And you know, I'll get a little 

835
01:02:13,960 --> 01:02:20,960
bit out there with this because 
I do think it's pertinent, but 

836
01:02:21,560 --> 01:02:24,520
David Lewis Williams, an 
archaeologist that was studying 

837
01:02:24,520 --> 01:02:29,280
the the rock art of the sand 
people, he developed this model 

838
01:02:29,280 --> 01:02:31,320
of trance. 
He calls it the three stages of 

839
01:02:31,320 --> 01:02:35,520
trance model. 
And he postulates that the first

840
01:02:35,520 --> 01:02:39,960
stage of trance is the 
perception of geometric figures,

841
01:02:39,960 --> 01:02:43,680
geometric motifs, a set number 
of them that that chemist named 

842
01:02:43,880 --> 01:02:46,800
Heinrich Kluber discovered. 
He calls them form constants. 

843
01:02:47,120 --> 01:02:49,560
He discovered them taking 
mescaline in his in his 

844
01:02:49,560 --> 01:02:54,080
laboratory with his assistant, 
but these appear over and over 

845
01:02:54,080 --> 01:02:57,160
in the earliest cave art and 
Neanderthal are lattices, 

846
01:02:57,280 --> 01:03:01,440
spirals, funnels or tunnels, and
cobwebs are the traditional 

847
01:03:01,440 --> 01:03:04,600
forms. 
So he he postulates that in 

848
01:03:04,600 --> 01:03:07,920
stage 1 of trance, you're seeing
geometric figures. 

849
01:03:08,560 --> 01:03:15,040
In stage 2 of trance, these 
geometric figures begin to take 

850
01:03:15,040 --> 01:03:23,880
on the appearance, often 3 
dimensionally, of real world 

851
01:03:24,000 --> 01:03:26,880
objects that those shapes and 
form. 

852
01:03:27,320 --> 01:03:30,160
So let's say it's a latticework 
of hexagons. 

853
01:03:31,760 --> 01:03:37,080
Once you enter stage 2, that 
might become a honeycomb for if 

854
01:03:37,320 --> 01:03:39,600
and, and it's often culturally 
relevant. 

855
01:03:39,840 --> 01:03:44,160
So especially if the individual 
was a beekeeper, he would 

856
01:03:44,160 --> 01:03:46,160
probably see something like 
honeycombs. 

857
01:03:46,480 --> 01:03:50,600
If they were from in Ireland, 
they might begin to see the 

858
01:03:50,600 --> 01:03:55,240
basalt columns that, you know, 
that form the long hexagonal 

859
01:03:55,800 --> 01:03:57,920
structures that piece together 
like a honeycomb. 

860
01:03:59,320 --> 01:04:02,880
But they're still observing it 
as an outsider. 

861
01:04:02,920 --> 01:04:06,320
They're, they're watching it 
like we watch TV. 

862
01:04:07,240 --> 01:04:13,560
When stage 3 happens, the 4th 
wall falls like in theater. 

863
01:04:13,560 --> 01:04:17,440
You know, in theater, the actors
don't address the audience. 

864
01:04:17,440 --> 01:04:20,320
There's a invisible 4th wall 
that separates the two. 

865
01:04:20,320 --> 01:04:25,680
And never shall the twain meet 
but that the 4th wall falls away

866
01:04:26,440 --> 01:04:31,880
and they become an active 
participant in what they're 

867
01:04:31,880 --> 01:04:36,480
observing, often times without 
remembering that they ever took 

868
01:04:36,480 --> 01:04:40,840
a drug, which is you've probably
heard or experienced something 

869
01:04:40,840 --> 01:04:43,120
similar with high doses of 
psilocybin. 

870
01:04:43,400 --> 01:04:48,440
You get immersed into this 
almost alien narrative and you 

871
01:04:48,440 --> 01:04:52,320
forget who you are, that you've 
done the drug and you're totally

872
01:04:52,840 --> 01:04:55,760
in what's happening. 
And so that's what happens with,

873
01:04:56,160 --> 01:05:03,520
with stage, stage 3. 
So with these caves, just like 

874
01:05:03,520 --> 01:05:08,520
with television or, or a play, a
theatre, a group of people 

875
01:05:08,520 --> 01:05:13,360
watching television are 
essentially participating in a 

876
01:05:13,360 --> 01:05:18,200
version of Stage 2 trance. 
You know, the first time we get 

877
01:05:18,200 --> 01:05:24,920
to something like stage 3 on a 
global level is when something 

878
01:05:24,920 --> 01:05:29,120
like Nintendo emerges, you know,
because then you're, even though

879
01:05:29,120 --> 01:05:34,200
you have an avatar on the 
screen, you are him, you know, 

880
01:05:34,200 --> 01:05:36,680
and you're participating in the 
drama that's going on, 

881
01:05:36,680 --> 01:05:38,760
controlling the direction it 
moves. 

882
01:05:39,320 --> 01:05:43,200
So with these caves, I think 
it's something a lot like that 

883
01:05:44,360 --> 01:05:48,000
in the in the stages where 
someone is being taught this 

884
01:05:48,000 --> 01:05:52,520
myth through this narrative, 
It's very much an artificial 

885
01:05:52,520 --> 01:05:58,280
induction of stage 2 trance. 
But the moment someone descends 

886
01:05:58,280 --> 01:06:03,280
into this cave with the 
intention of inducing trance 

887
01:06:03,280 --> 01:06:08,280
through one or more of these 
techniques, they participate in 

888
01:06:08,280 --> 01:06:09,680
it. 
You know, they're they're 

889
01:06:09,840 --> 01:06:13,520
participating in the the being, 
the entity that they're 

890
01:06:13,520 --> 01:06:17,280
observing on the walls, probably
in some cases becoming them 

891
01:06:17,720 --> 01:06:19,680
just. 
But that wouldn't have been 

892
01:06:19,800 --> 01:06:23,240
confusing for them, especially 
with rites of passage and 

893
01:06:23,240 --> 01:06:26,520
rituals, initiations that are 
based on the myths already where

894
01:06:26,520 --> 01:06:31,800
they're playing the character. 
And again, bring it to something

895
01:06:31,800 --> 01:06:35,480
modern, like in Masonry where 
the candidate is made to be 

896
01:06:35,480 --> 01:06:40,240
higher in the biff and, and he's
murdered and raised, You know, 

897
01:06:40,360 --> 01:06:45,400
in those moments, it's it's 
bewildering because you're no 

898
01:06:45,400 --> 01:06:49,880
longer observing a mystery play.
You're at the center of it and, 

899
01:06:49,880 --> 01:06:53,840
and had no idea you were going 
to be at the center of it. 

900
01:06:55,280 --> 01:07:01,840
And I think that that that can 
tell us a lot about, you know, 

901
01:07:01,840 --> 01:07:05,520
you, you use the, the, the, the 
phrase machine. 

902
01:07:05,520 --> 01:07:07,760
Is that what you, how can, how 
can it be like a machine? 

903
01:07:09,000 --> 01:07:13,480
I think that's how I think 
that's the closest thing to to 

904
01:07:13,560 --> 01:07:19,040
how to view it as a technology 
and not just a a dwelling place 

905
01:07:19,040 --> 01:07:22,440
or a shelter, if that makes 
sense. 

906
01:07:23,280 --> 01:07:26,800
No, I appreciate that. 
Yeah, no, that was a good 

907
01:07:26,800 --> 01:07:29,720
explanation. 
And if you look throughout 

908
01:07:29,720 --> 01:07:33,360
history, you know, Da Vinci 
disappearing in a cave and a lot

909
01:07:33,360 --> 01:07:39,160
of great artists and minds of 
similar things or, you know, 

910
01:07:40,120 --> 01:07:43,320
darkness induced visions and 
things of that nature. 

911
01:07:43,320 --> 01:07:50,240
So super interesting. 
Do you think the Cahokia mound 

912
01:07:50,240 --> 01:07:55,200
alignments were some sort of 
like astronomical launch window 

913
01:07:55,200 --> 01:08:00,360
for spiritual contact or 
anything these these psychedelic

914
01:08:00,360 --> 01:08:02,720
rituals or what do you think was
happening there? 

915
01:08:03,680 --> 01:08:07,120
Absolutely. 
I think most of them were, but 

916
01:08:07,120 --> 01:08:15,680
Cahokia is really easy to see 
because the structure of the 

917
01:08:15,680 --> 01:08:21,000
complex lines up perfectly with 
the constellation we recognize 

918
01:08:21,000 --> 01:08:24,880
as Orion. 
And that that's confusing for a 

919
01:08:24,880 --> 01:08:29,240
lot of people studying this 
because, you know, they're well 

920
01:08:29,240 --> 01:08:32,840
aware of the fact that Orion is 
a Greek convention and they 

921
01:08:32,840 --> 01:08:35,399
wouldn't have recognized that 
cluster of stars that way. 

922
01:08:35,720 --> 01:08:38,960
And that's true. 
The same cluster is still sacred

923
01:08:38,960 --> 01:08:44,479
to them, but they see it as the 
chief's hand constellation, and 

924
01:08:45,359 --> 01:08:50,439
it it appears that the oldest 
mounds are the ones that align 

925
01:08:50,439 --> 01:08:52,600
with the chief's hand 
constellation. 

926
01:08:53,160 --> 01:08:56,960
The other ones that seem to 
resemble what we see as Orion 

927
01:08:58,359 --> 01:09:04,040
are are significantly later. 
And it appears to be that they 

928
01:09:04,040 --> 01:09:07,359
weren't so much trying to create
Orion on the ground as much as 

929
01:09:07,359 --> 01:09:12,080
they were including the other 
stars around the constellation. 

930
01:09:12,520 --> 01:09:17,319
And the ones that stand out the 
most that seem to form a shape 

931
01:09:17,359 --> 01:09:20,399
are those that they include 
there. 

932
01:09:20,960 --> 01:09:24,960
And it it also is interesting 
that when you look at the 

933
01:09:24,960 --> 01:09:30,359
depiction of red horn in picture
cave, it fits. 

934
01:09:30,439 --> 01:09:35,520
If you overlay that on Orion, 
you're looking at a perfect 

935
01:09:35,520 --> 01:09:44,040
match, you know, So there does 
seem to be a tradition of seeing

936
01:09:44,040 --> 01:09:49,760
it as a humanoid figure, even 
though it would be incredibly 

937
01:09:49,760 --> 01:09:54,560
misleading to say it's Orion, 
it's the hunter that they're 

938
01:09:54,800 --> 01:09:57,880
creating. 
But they were, they were 

939
01:09:57,880 --> 01:09:59,560
certainly modeling it after 
that. 

940
01:09:59,560 --> 01:10:03,840
And the reason they would want 
to model it around that specific

941
01:10:03,840 --> 01:10:08,040
constellation is because in the 
palm of the chief's hand, one of

942
01:10:08,040 --> 01:10:12,000
the most prevalent pieces of 
iconography from the 

943
01:10:12,120 --> 01:10:15,800
Mississippian ideological 
interaction sphere is a hand 

944
01:10:15,800 --> 01:10:17,680
that looks like it has an eye in
the palm. 

945
01:10:18,880 --> 01:10:23,160
It's not an eye. 
It's actually meant to look like

946
01:10:23,160 --> 01:10:26,680
what they call the Mijas scale, 
which is a cowrie shell. 

947
01:10:28,720 --> 01:10:37,400
Actually, I have one right here.
These little shells and these 

948
01:10:37,400 --> 01:10:44,920
are sacred among a number of 
tribes and medicine sodalities 

949
01:10:44,920 --> 01:10:52,520
as in the the media we win the 
shell society, which is a little

950
01:10:52,520 --> 01:11:01,800
further West and N into Canada. 
But their mark of showing that 

951
01:11:01,800 --> 01:11:04,880
they're an initiate is they'll 
put that shell in their palm and

952
01:11:04,880 --> 01:11:10,760
show it to the other members and
that that act is confirmation 

953
01:11:10,760 --> 01:11:13,520
for them. 
Even if he's from another tribe 

954
01:11:13,520 --> 01:11:16,760
or from a the same tribe but a 
different settlement. 

955
01:11:17,560 --> 01:11:20,880
Yes, he's a member he's welcome 
he can come in and participate 

956
01:11:20,880 --> 01:11:24,520
in the ceremony. 
So it that's what it's meant to 

957
01:11:24,520 --> 01:11:28,840
represent. 
But in the constellation itself,

958
01:11:29,080 --> 01:11:33,960
where that's placed in the palm 
is the exact location of Messier

959
01:11:33,960 --> 01:11:39,280
42, which is the Orion Nebula. 
And I'm sure Greg is he, he's 

960
01:11:39,280 --> 01:11:41,960
the guy who opened me up to this
whole thing. 

961
01:11:41,960 --> 01:11:44,720
So and I'm sure you've. 
Heard him that we've done an 

962
01:11:44,720 --> 01:11:48,360
episode where he kind of goes 
through all the actually might 

963
01:11:48,360 --> 01:11:50,840
even be on our Patreon now that 
I think about it, but it's he 

964
01:11:50,840 --> 01:11:54,520
goes through the metaphysics of 
the Native Americans kind of 

965
01:11:54,520 --> 01:11:55,920
what you're describing right 
now. 

966
01:11:56,760 --> 01:12:02,920
Yeah, he, he gets it for sure. 
And so this, this the Orion 

967
01:12:02,920 --> 01:12:08,720
Nebula, they see as a what's 
called an ogee. 

968
01:12:08,720 --> 01:12:10,560
That's not a Native American 
word. 

969
01:12:10,560 --> 01:12:16,880
That's a word from you'll you'll
primarily see it, if you see it 

970
01:12:16,880 --> 01:12:24,440
at all, in descriptions of of 
ornaments on houses are on 

971
01:12:24,440 --> 01:12:28,240
furniture. 
But it's a shape that has a 

972
01:12:28,240 --> 01:12:33,680
curve with curves coming up on 
the side, almost kind of like an

973
01:12:33,680 --> 01:12:37,280
F hole in a violin that, you 
know, if we took half of that, 

974
01:12:37,280 --> 01:12:43,520
we could call that an oogie. 
But the soul, initially only the

975
01:12:43,520 --> 01:12:49,200
soul of the the chief, the 
shaman, the elites at death 

976
01:12:49,200 --> 01:12:53,000
would travel with no, to travel 
through this whole, they would 

977
01:12:53,000 --> 01:12:57,120
launch themselves, their soul in
the form of an arrow through 

978
01:12:57,120 --> 01:12:59,680
that opening. 
And that's how they would gain 

979
01:12:59,680 --> 01:13:04,160
access to the Milky Way. 
To give you a picture, if we 

980
01:13:04,160 --> 01:13:09,960
imagine this as the Earth going 
this way, we have the ecliptic, 

981
01:13:10,000 --> 01:13:12,680
which is where the sun rises, 
the moon. 

982
01:13:12,680 --> 01:13:15,040
All the planets travel through 
this path. 

983
01:13:15,880 --> 01:13:20,480
Now going this way is the Milky 
Way wrapping around. 

984
01:13:20,720 --> 01:13:25,760
So naturally there are two 
intersection points where the 

985
01:13:25,760 --> 01:13:30,320
ecliptic meets the Milky Way at 
those two points are where there

986
01:13:30,320 --> 01:13:34,080
are two portals in the sky. 
And we see the same exact thing 

987
01:13:34,160 --> 01:13:37,600
in the theergic model and late 
antiquity. 

988
01:13:38,000 --> 01:13:40,760
Even before that, there were 
hints of it in Plato and even in

989
01:13:40,760 --> 01:13:46,920
Homer. 
But so the the southern 

990
01:13:47,400 --> 01:13:52,920
entrance, the point of 
intersection is located exactly 

991
01:13:52,920 --> 01:13:57,600
at that ogee at Messier 42 
within the constellation of 

992
01:13:57,840 --> 01:14:03,600
Orion or the Chief's hand. 
So that's the goal. 

993
01:14:03,600 --> 01:14:08,360
That's what they're trying to do
now at Cahokia. 

994
01:14:09,160 --> 01:14:14,720
And this research was done by 
another absolute brilliant 

995
01:14:15,960 --> 01:14:21,640
scholar named William F Romain. 
He's got at least three books on

996
01:14:21,640 --> 01:14:25,320
the subject where he really 
dives deep into this. 

997
01:14:26,000 --> 01:14:33,560
But at the, the right time of 
the year, the there there's a 

998
01:14:33,560 --> 01:14:38,960
main mound, the the big mound at
the center, but then there's a 

999
01:14:38,960 --> 01:14:43,840
Causeway, like a road that's 
built that leads to a smaller 

1000
01:14:43,840 --> 01:14:48,600
mound that is in the shape of 
the ogee and the Orion 

1001
01:14:48,600 --> 01:14:52,840
constellation. 
And that Causeway represents the

1002
01:14:52,840 --> 01:14:57,880
path that the soul would travel.
And it's done on the night when 

1003
01:14:57,960 --> 01:15:03,600
the Milky Way, which you know, 
in my model here, just because 

1004
01:15:03,600 --> 01:15:08,440
this is easy, easier to 
juxtapose with a vertical, It's 

1005
01:15:08,440 --> 01:15:11,960
actually at a tilt. 
The Milky Way is in a tilt and 

1006
01:15:12,000 --> 01:15:19,640
on on the summer solstice, it 
aligns with that spot, which 

1007
01:15:19,640 --> 01:15:24,240
becomes a veritable launchpad. 
Like you said, a launchpad for 

1008
01:15:24,240 --> 01:15:28,600
the soul to immediately enter 
the Milky Way. 

1009
01:15:28,960 --> 01:15:33,960
And you know, I should, I should
clarify the, the southern portal

1010
01:15:34,280 --> 01:15:39,240
in the Orion, that is a portal 
and it, it became the primary 

1011
01:15:39,240 --> 01:15:46,440
portal used especially with 
later, later complexes like 

1012
01:15:46,440 --> 01:15:49,080
Moundville, which was a 
necropolis. 

1013
01:15:49,080 --> 01:15:54,960
But by this point, it wasn't 
just the elite they had evolved 

1014
01:15:54,960 --> 01:16:01,120
to, where the shamans in these 
sodalities would offer to take 

1015
01:16:01,120 --> 01:16:05,440
people who hadn't been initiated
into this wisdom for a nominal 

1016
01:16:05,440 --> 01:16:08,320
fee. 
They would take you or a loved 

1017
01:16:08,320 --> 01:16:13,320
one who had passed away along 
this path like a psychopomp God.

1018
01:16:13,320 --> 01:16:17,880
They would leave their body 
through ritual psychedelics and 

1019
01:16:17,880 --> 01:16:21,480
guide the soul of the dead 
safely onto the Milky Way, and 

1020
01:16:21,480 --> 01:16:24,880
then come back. 
Now, at the time of Cahokia, 

1021
01:16:26,360 --> 01:16:31,160
they would actually use the 
northern portal, and at the 

1022
01:16:31,160 --> 01:16:34,080
summer solstice instead of the 
winter solstice, it's at the 

1023
01:16:34,080 --> 01:16:37,880
winter solstice when Orion is 
visible, and after winter, 

1024
01:16:37,880 --> 01:16:39,800
Orion's no longer visible in the
sky. 

1025
01:16:40,360 --> 01:16:47,120
Well, the reason they're opting 
for the Orion portal is because 

1026
01:16:47,120 --> 01:16:50,600
they're taking people who 
weren't initiated Now at the 

1027
01:16:50,600 --> 01:16:53,480
opposite portal, the one that 
they were primarily using at 

1028
01:16:53,480 --> 01:16:57,960
Cahokia, it's within the 
vicinity of what we we recognize

1029
01:16:57,960 --> 01:17:01,200
as Scorpio. 
For them, it wasn't Scorpio, it 

1030
01:17:01,200 --> 01:17:03,280
was the great Serpent 
constellation. 

1031
01:17:03,920 --> 01:17:07,280
And the serpent is also the 
below world entity. 

1032
01:17:09,080 --> 01:17:13,000
The Scorpio constellation is 
only visible in the summer night

1033
01:17:13,000 --> 01:17:16,360
sky, just like Orion is only in 
the winter night sky. 

1034
01:17:17,400 --> 01:17:23,440
And what this serpent did 
mythologically, was police the 

1035
01:17:23,440 --> 01:17:29,320
skies for anyone attempting to 
enter that portal who hadn't 

1036
01:17:29,320 --> 01:17:32,800
been initiated into the secret 
Wisdom, who wasn't a member of 

1037
01:17:32,800 --> 01:17:35,120
the Sodality, wasn't an elite, 
wasn't a chief. 

1038
01:17:35,520 --> 01:17:38,680
And if that happened, he would 
knock them out of the sky and 

1039
01:17:38,680 --> 01:17:42,520
they would fall to the below 
world where he eventually goes 

1040
01:17:42,520 --> 01:17:46,200
to following summer. 
Scorpio never rises above the 

1041
01:17:46,200 --> 01:17:50,320
horizon and at this point, this 
feathered serpent constellation.

1042
01:17:50,560 --> 01:17:54,360
Once he descends, he sheds his 
feathers and becomes what's 

1043
01:17:54,360 --> 01:17:58,560
known as the underwater Panther 
and hibernates in the underworld

1044
01:17:58,560 --> 01:18:00,960
like a bear or a Panther 
hibernating down there. 

1045
01:18:01,560 --> 01:18:05,480
But he knocks people down to 
make sure they can't access this

1046
01:18:05,480 --> 01:18:09,560
sacred domain where the the 
happy dead go. 

1047
01:18:13,920 --> 01:18:18,880
So like I said, just to clarify,
at that time, Cahokia is an 

1048
01:18:18,880 --> 01:18:24,800
early civilization within the 
Mississippian timeline. 

1049
01:18:25,360 --> 01:18:29,160
And at that point, just like 
with Egypt, it's still limited 

1050
01:18:29,160 --> 01:18:30,960
to people who had been 
initiated. 

1051
01:18:31,640 --> 01:18:35,040
But once we get further towards 
the end of the timeline, 

1052
01:18:35,040 --> 01:18:38,360
especially at Moundville, 
they're allowing people who 

1053
01:18:38,360 --> 01:18:42,360
weren't initiated to go with the
help of someone who was 

1054
01:18:42,360 --> 01:18:46,080
initiated as a psychopomp. 
But for that reason, they had to

1055
01:18:46,080 --> 01:18:49,480
avoid Scorpio, the Great 
Serpent. 

1056
01:18:49,480 --> 01:18:54,080
So they did it at a time when it
was totally below the the 

1057
01:18:54,080 --> 01:18:58,240
horizon in the Underworld, and 
that gave them safe passage to 

1058
01:18:58,800 --> 01:19:02,000
the ogee located in Orion or the
Chief's Hand. 

1059
01:19:04,000 --> 01:19:09,120
Interesting the Spyro shells of 
Oklahoma. 

1060
01:19:09,120 --> 01:19:14,720
Which artifact out of, you know,
that realm of research do you 

1061
01:19:14,720 --> 01:19:19,560
think shows most convincingly 
sort of metaphysical design? 

1062
01:19:19,920 --> 01:19:22,880
And then to piggyback on that, 
why do you think so many 

1063
01:19:22,880 --> 01:19:28,000
academics mischaracterize some 
of these artifacts as toys? 

1064
01:19:30,480 --> 01:19:36,320
That's a great question. 
I think probably the most 

1065
01:19:36,320 --> 01:19:41,160
interesting is the hollow mound 
that that's became like an earth

1066
01:19:41,160 --> 01:19:43,160
lodge as they're sometimes 
called. 

1067
01:19:43,160 --> 01:19:46,840
And it was hollow. 
So it was effectively a cave. 

1068
01:19:47,280 --> 01:19:50,560
And I think it was either 
Langford or Riley. 

1069
01:19:50,560 --> 01:19:55,120
But they said what is a mound 
but a man made cave, you know, 

1070
01:19:55,120 --> 01:19:59,080
And that that I think speaks 
also to the significance of 

1071
01:19:59,080 --> 01:20:04,120
caves and these these practices.
But this one was intentionally 

1072
01:20:04,120 --> 01:20:07,720
made hollow. 
And the cavity was supported by,

1073
01:20:08,320 --> 01:20:10,840
I believe it was cedar, giant 
cedar posts. 

1074
01:20:11,280 --> 01:20:19,040
And within it were placed 
statues and pipes that were 

1075
01:20:19,320 --> 01:20:24,640
created as effigies of the 
particular supernatural beings 

1076
01:20:24,640 --> 01:20:29,280
that one could expect to 
encounter in the path of souls 

1077
01:20:29,280 --> 01:20:31,560
journey. 
They were the they represented 

1078
01:20:31,560 --> 01:20:37,840
the trials that one had to pass 
like metaphysical landmarks, but

1079
01:20:37,840 --> 01:20:42,800
they were placed in their proper
positions within this opening. 

1080
01:20:43,120 --> 01:20:49,880
And it's terrible. 
The the this mound was first 

1081
01:20:49,880 --> 01:20:53,160
accessed by people who had no 
business being in it. 

1082
01:20:53,160 --> 01:20:58,240
And they created a a fictitious 
mining company to give the 

1083
01:20:58,240 --> 01:21:00,520
appearance that what they were 
doing was official. 

1084
01:21:01,480 --> 01:21:04,240
But when the university, the 
local university found out about

1085
01:21:04,240 --> 01:21:10,400
it, they immediately got a 
statement issued that they had 

1086
01:21:10,400 --> 01:21:16,240
to vacate those premises because
that was not only sacred area, 

1087
01:21:16,240 --> 01:21:20,200
but needed to be studied by 
those who are qualified to study

1088
01:21:20,200 --> 01:21:21,480
it. 
Because these people were 

1089
01:21:21,680 --> 01:21:25,600
looting it and then going and 
setting up stands on the highway

1090
01:21:25,600 --> 01:21:29,040
and selling these pieces, you 
know, for pennies. 

1091
01:21:29,720 --> 01:21:33,040
And there were thousands and 
thousands, just shell cups 

1092
01:21:33,040 --> 01:21:36,200
alone, thousands of them 
discovered in this thing in 

1093
01:21:36,200 --> 01:21:39,520
addition to these pipes and 
statues. 

1094
01:21:41,040 --> 01:21:48,520
But once they got the order, 
they decided to fill it up with 

1095
01:21:48,520 --> 01:21:54,920
kegs of dynamite and blew it up,
destroyed it and anything that 

1096
01:21:54,920 --> 01:21:58,880
was left. 
And if it wasn't for one of the 

1097
01:21:59,840 --> 01:22:04,720
individuals involved, a drawing 
he made of everything inside it 

1098
01:22:04,720 --> 01:22:07,920
before they raided it, we'd have
no idea what it looked like in 

1099
01:22:07,920 --> 01:22:10,080
there. 
But he did. 

1100
01:22:10,480 --> 01:22:15,440
So as as despicable as he is, we
should still give him credit for

1101
01:22:15,440 --> 01:22:18,280
the drawing because otherwise we
we wouldn't know anything about 

1102
01:22:18,280 --> 01:22:20,960
it. 
But that to me is the most 

1103
01:22:20,960 --> 01:22:30,360
fascinating because not only 
does it give us a picture of a 

1104
01:22:30,360 --> 01:22:32,960
real picture, it's not just 
we're not speculating anymore. 

1105
01:22:32,960 --> 01:22:35,560
We're looking at what they 
imagine the path of souls look 

1106
01:22:35,560 --> 01:22:39,720
like. 
But it because of all the shell 

1107
01:22:39,720 --> 01:22:44,040
cups there, many of which tested
positive for substances like 

1108
01:22:44,040 --> 01:22:51,520
datura, it becomes like a North 
American, almost like Ellucidian

1109
01:22:51,520 --> 01:22:53,480
mysteries. 
Like we're looking at the the 

1110
01:22:53,640 --> 01:22:59,240
telesterion where they would 
drink the Kiki on and experience

1111
01:23:00,120 --> 01:23:03,120
what they interpreted as the 
afterlife through the through 

1112
01:23:03,120 --> 01:23:06,000
the psychedelic, you know, 
training for death. 

1113
01:23:06,720 --> 01:23:11,080
We're seeing something like that
with this place set up like the 

1114
01:23:11,080 --> 01:23:15,320
afterlife as they imagined it. 
And with all of these cups that 

1115
01:23:17,120 --> 01:23:20,480
were likely the cups belonging 
to individuals who went through 

1116
01:23:20,480 --> 01:23:24,200
it, you know, the these cups 
weren't just, oh, let's drink 

1117
01:23:24,200 --> 01:23:25,720
from the shell cup and throw it 
away. 

1118
01:23:26,200 --> 01:23:29,480
The cups were often inscribed 
with images. 

1119
01:23:29,520 --> 01:23:35,080
And those images were were super
supernatural beings that one 

1120
01:23:35,080 --> 01:23:39,240
could expect to encounter on the
path of souls, which in effect 

1121
01:23:39,240 --> 01:23:42,760
became the degrees, right? 
Remember I said it was a degreed

1122
01:23:42,760 --> 01:23:46,360
structure. 
So once you get to a certain 

1123
01:23:46,360 --> 01:23:50,080
degree, you receive a new cup 
that has the image of the 

1124
01:23:50,080 --> 01:23:54,520
supernatural associated with 
that point in the journey. 

1125
01:23:55,360 --> 01:24:00,840
And this explains why so many 
people were buried with their 

1126
01:24:00,840 --> 01:24:04,800
cup, because it was quite 
literally the a mark of their 

1127
01:24:04,800 --> 01:24:08,680
identity. 
It showed other people where 

1128
01:24:08,680 --> 01:24:12,600
they were not as a nobleman 
necessarily, but where they were

1129
01:24:12,600 --> 01:24:17,000
as as a member of a sodality, 
that they were possessed of a 

1130
01:24:17,000 --> 01:24:20,160
certain wisdom that many people 
didn't have, you know, and it 

1131
01:24:20,160 --> 01:24:21,680
set them apart. 
It marked them. 

1132
01:24:22,280 --> 01:24:26,920
And we know this from a, a, a 
story that was preserved by 

1133
01:24:26,920 --> 01:24:34,200
Lankford, where this chief needs
to send a message to a chief of 

1134
01:24:34,200 --> 01:24:37,600
the neighboring tribe. 
And he sends his son as the 

1135
01:24:37,600 --> 01:24:41,320
emissary. 
And he gives his son his shell 

1136
01:24:41,320 --> 01:24:43,600
cup. 
And he says, be sure to show 

1137
01:24:43,600 --> 01:24:47,920
this to the chief so that he 
knows it came from me, you know,

1138
01:24:49,880 --> 01:24:53,320
very clearly indicating that it 
was a mark of identity, not 

1139
01:24:53,400 --> 01:24:57,240
something he was going to trade 
with the chief, but something to

1140
01:24:57,240 --> 01:25:01,200
save. 
Here's proof that I'm from X, 

1141
01:25:01,520 --> 01:25:10,480
you know, So, yeah, it, it, it 
opens up an aspect of Native 

1142
01:25:10,480 --> 01:25:17,640
American ritual culture in the 
Southeast that provides just one

1143
01:25:17,640 --> 01:25:24,960
more really striking parallel to
what we imagined to be a Greek 

1144
01:25:24,960 --> 01:25:28,240
phenomenon. 
You know, you, you encounter so 

1145
01:25:28,240 --> 01:25:32,040
much, especially in 19th century
scholarship on ancient Greece, 

1146
01:25:32,040 --> 01:25:35,880
they call it the Greek miracle. 
Like everybody was stupid in the

1147
01:25:35,880 --> 01:25:39,160
whole world until these Greeks 
came along and brought us 

1148
01:25:39,160 --> 01:25:43,000
reason. 
And it's, it's just, it's 

1149
01:25:43,000 --> 01:25:44,600
absurd. 
It's nonsense. 

1150
01:25:44,920 --> 01:25:50,160
And we're seeing that writing or
no writing, the, the what the 

1151
01:25:50,160 --> 01:25:53,920
Native Americans in the 
Southeast were doing was just as

1152
01:25:53,920 --> 01:26:00,760
sophisticated, just as complex 
and, and just as magical as 

1153
01:26:00,800 --> 01:26:03,880
anything that emerged out of 
Greek culture. 

1154
01:26:05,040 --> 01:26:06,600
They would interpret them as 
toys. 

1155
01:26:08,920 --> 01:26:15,040
You know that it's because 
they've completely lost touch 

1156
01:26:15,200 --> 01:26:21,040
with the magic of, of, of 
nature, of being. 

1157
01:26:21,480 --> 01:26:25,240
You know, in the ancient world, 
everything reflected nature. 

1158
01:26:26,520 --> 01:26:30,600
It wasn't until the development 
of things like Chariots that we 

1159
01:26:30,600 --> 01:26:33,760
even see something resembling 
cars and things on wheels. 

1160
01:26:34,040 --> 01:26:38,480
But going all the way back to 
the Stone Age, there was a this 

1161
01:26:39,480 --> 01:26:44,920
amazing piece of amber that was 
carved into a small bear. 

1162
01:26:45,520 --> 01:26:52,480
You know, clearly a ritualistic 
object may be indicative of a 

1163
01:26:52,480 --> 01:26:58,280
clan, of a vision, of a power 
being given to them by receiving

1164
01:26:58,280 --> 01:27:00,080
it. 
But some of the first 

1165
01:27:00,080 --> 01:27:05,040
discussions of it were that it 
was probably a toy, you know, 

1166
01:27:05,760 --> 01:27:09,520
this delicate, perfectly carved 
object. 

1167
01:27:09,520 --> 01:27:11,720
And, and that's the best they 
could come up with was it's 

1168
01:27:11,720 --> 01:27:14,760
probably a toy. 
So I think that's just the 

1169
01:27:14,760 --> 01:27:22,440
tendency of, of academia, 
particularly at a time when that

1170
01:27:22,440 --> 01:27:28,160
that bias exists that says there
is no magic, you know, it must 

1171
01:27:28,160 --> 01:27:31,880
be something practical, 
therefore it must be a toy. 

1172
01:27:31,880 --> 01:27:34,840
Because I can't do any, I can 
imagine doing anything with 

1173
01:27:34,840 --> 01:27:39,760
this, but it just shows their 
their lack of imagination, lack 

1174
01:27:39,760 --> 01:27:45,680
of innovation, and the the the 
bias that exists towards 

1175
01:27:45,680 --> 01:27:53,240
discussing the sacred in any way
other than to demarcate it from 

1176
01:27:53,240 --> 01:27:57,240
the mundane with within a a a 
rite of passage model. 

1177
01:27:57,600 --> 01:28:01,920
In Chapter 7, you know we're 
talking about Mississippian 

1178
01:28:02,400 --> 01:28:07,920
shamans and shamanism. 
Do you think the Mississippian 

1179
01:28:07,920 --> 01:28:12,560
shaman was closer to a 
pharmacologist, astronomer, 

1180
01:28:12,560 --> 01:28:16,600
psychonaut, or do you think 
there were they were all three 

1181
01:28:16,600 --> 01:28:20,840
simultaneously? 
Oh yeah, definitely the latter 

1182
01:28:22,640 --> 01:28:29,160
and you know it before. 
Before I answer this in in more 

1183
01:28:29,160 --> 01:28:37,000
complete terms, it it is 
important to to distinguish 

1184
01:28:37,000 --> 01:28:43,080
between what a shaman actually 
was and what we use the word to 

1185
01:28:43,080 --> 01:28:49,320
describe since the time of of 
the late 19th century when 

1186
01:28:50,640 --> 01:28:54,120
anthropologists were trying to 
find it. 

1187
01:28:54,120 --> 01:28:57,160
A term that could be universally
used to cover all of these 

1188
01:28:57,160 --> 01:28:59,760
different types of people 
because they are vastly 

1189
01:28:59,760 --> 01:29:01,640
different depending on where 
we're talking about. 

1190
01:29:03,120 --> 01:29:07,400
But the word itself comes from 
likely stems from the Ungus 

1191
01:29:07,840 --> 01:29:11,240
people which were Siberian are 
Siberian. 

1192
01:29:11,240 --> 01:29:14,520
They still they still exist, but
that's where we get the word 

1193
01:29:14,520 --> 01:29:24,400
Saman from and the the practices
they exhibit became the criteria

1194
01:29:24,400 --> 01:29:31,760
for what modern academics used 
to describe these people in 

1195
01:29:31,760 --> 01:29:37,040
vastly different settings. 
But they are very different. 

1196
01:29:37,040 --> 01:29:40,800
And often times, you know, 
sometimes the word gets used 

1197
01:29:40,800 --> 01:29:46,720
for, for types of practitioners 
that it really doesn't fit with.

1198
01:29:47,680 --> 01:29:52,160
And Sasha Chaitao has has 
recently pointed this out in 

1199
01:29:52,160 --> 01:29:58,440
regard to ancient Greece. 
And while I, I think what she's 

1200
01:29:58,440 --> 01:30:04,400
saying is, is relevant, I also 
see the usefulness in having a 

1201
01:30:04,400 --> 01:30:12,760
universal term because it, a lot
of it is contact with the dead, 

1202
01:30:12,760 --> 01:30:15,680
communication with the dead, 
contact with in communication 

1203
01:30:15,680 --> 01:30:22,680
with supernatural beings, nature
spirits and and Native American 

1204
01:30:22,680 --> 01:30:26,480
tradition. 
A big part of it consisted of 

1205
01:30:27,840 --> 01:30:33,720
being bed, you know, the shaman 
able able to enter a state that 

1206
01:30:33,880 --> 01:30:37,040
for himself and for the 
observers very much look like he

1207
01:30:37,040 --> 01:30:41,040
was dead, you know, and is being
raised from the dead often by 

1208
01:30:41,040 --> 01:30:45,600
another shaman who's there as 
kind of to watch him, to help 

1209
01:30:45,600 --> 01:30:49,200
him keep his body safe, you 
know, things like that. 

1210
01:30:49,200 --> 01:30:54,080
But, but that being said, I do 
think it's a useful term. 

1211
01:30:54,160 --> 01:31:01,000
And there the principal concern 
within many of the Southeastern 

1212
01:31:01,480 --> 01:31:07,520
traditions were healing. 
And, and that's fairly universal

1213
01:31:09,040 --> 01:31:13,240
and the healing we think about 
medicine largely in terms of, of

1214
01:31:13,240 --> 01:31:16,080
physical ailments, fixing 
something physical. 

1215
01:31:16,600 --> 01:31:24,080
But medicine for, for many 
Native American cultures can be 

1216
01:31:24,080 --> 01:31:26,720
something like, I'll give you an
example. 

1217
01:31:28,520 --> 01:31:32,680
The first time I sat with a 
group of Lakota doing a pipe 

1218
01:31:32,680 --> 01:31:37,000
ceremony, a, a butterfly came 
and landed on my shoulder. 

1219
01:31:38,120 --> 01:31:41,120
And I thought that was neat, 
interesting. 

1220
01:31:41,480 --> 01:31:43,040
But for them, it was something 
else. 

1221
01:31:43,040 --> 01:31:47,360
They, they started talking about
butterfly medicine and I 

1222
01:31:47,360 --> 01:31:50,200
thought, what do you mean? 
You know, butterfly medicine 

1223
01:31:50,200 --> 01:31:55,720
and, and for them, medicine is 
something that can come along 

1224
01:31:55,760 --> 01:32:01,560
and bless you, give you help, 
give you assistance, boost you, 

1225
01:32:01,840 --> 01:32:04,280
but it's giving you something 
that you're missing. 

1226
01:32:04,960 --> 01:32:10,680
So they would have perceived 
that as I arrived missing 

1227
01:32:10,840 --> 01:32:13,000
something the butterfly had to 
offer. 

1228
01:32:14,280 --> 01:32:20,920
And this, this is a fairly 
common way of thinking and, and 

1229
01:32:21,080 --> 01:32:29,360
different shamanic traditions 
that let's say that that I want 

1230
01:32:29,360 --> 01:32:35,280
to develop the power of flight 
or I want to develop the ability

1231
01:32:35,280 --> 01:32:40,720
to see farther than I should be 
able to see as a man. 

1232
01:32:42,920 --> 01:32:49,320
This consists in a number of 
cases of being able to acquire 

1233
01:32:49,320 --> 01:32:53,600
the power of an eagle, you know,
or a hawk, something that has an

1234
01:32:53,600 --> 01:32:57,800
incredible sight that that has 
the ability to fly seemingly all

1235
01:32:57,800 --> 01:33:03,400
the way up to the sun. 
You know, we think about man, 

1236
01:33:04,000 --> 01:33:11,000
especially in in post Christian 
Judeo-christian traditions as 

1237
01:33:11,000 --> 01:33:16,440
being evolved beyond animals, as
being something superior to 

1238
01:33:16,440 --> 01:33:20,720
animals. 
And many shamanic settings 

1239
01:33:20,720 --> 01:33:24,800
that's not the case. 
These beings are more evolved 

1240
01:33:24,800 --> 01:33:30,600
than us and that's why they have
magic we don't have. 

1241
01:33:32,360 --> 01:33:37,840
And even in, in postmodern and 
meta modern settings where these

1242
01:33:37,840 --> 01:33:42,360
traditions are continued, but 
the, the cultures have evolved 

1243
01:33:42,360 --> 01:33:46,600
with the times. 
They'll view it in conjunction 

1244
01:33:46,640 --> 01:33:51,800
with the judeo-christian kind of
model that yes, we're evolved 

1245
01:33:51,800 --> 01:33:55,120
beyond them, but that also means
we've evolved beyond magic. 

1246
01:33:55,920 --> 01:34:02,000
And to acquire magic powers, we 
have to recover our eagle, you 

1247
01:34:02,000 --> 01:34:05,280
know, we have to recover our 
Hulk that we have lost touch 

1248
01:34:05,280 --> 01:34:09,960
with. 
But it's somewhere often times 

1249
01:34:10,120 --> 01:34:15,560
in US and, or in the, in the 
more ancient picture, it's, it's

1250
01:34:15,600 --> 01:34:19,240
out there and we have to get it 
from them. 

1251
01:34:20,600 --> 01:34:24,480
So medicine can be something 
like that. 

1252
01:34:25,240 --> 01:34:29,000
And what, what I was getting 
from the butterfly, I didn't 

1253
01:34:29,000 --> 01:34:32,200
press it at the time because the
notion was really foreign to me 

1254
01:34:32,240 --> 01:34:35,080
and I didn't really understand 
what they were saying. 

1255
01:34:35,920 --> 01:34:39,800
And I didn't feel like I was in 
a position to quiz them, 

1256
01:34:40,120 --> 01:34:42,760
interrogate them about that 
particular thing. 

1257
01:34:43,320 --> 01:34:46,080
But over the years, I've 
gradually come to understand 

1258
01:34:46,080 --> 01:34:49,880
that that medicine is acquiring 
something missing. 

1259
01:34:51,720 --> 01:34:57,280
So healing can mean a number of 
different things, but healing is

1260
01:34:57,280 --> 01:35:03,440
a major factor. 
Recovery of the soul or souls is

1261
01:35:03,440 --> 01:35:09,480
a major factor. 
We again and post Christian, 

1262
01:35:10,160 --> 01:35:14,760
judeo-christian setting, we 
think of we have a soul, but for

1263
01:35:14,760 --> 01:35:17,560
many indigenous traditions, we 
have many souls. 

1264
01:35:18,280 --> 01:35:23,000
You can have in Africa, there's 
a Bush soul that's separate from

1265
01:35:23,600 --> 01:35:29,560
the dreaming soul, you know, and
there's evidence that in in 

1266
01:35:30,360 --> 01:35:33,400
certain times in ancient Egypt, 
there were as many as seven 

1267
01:35:33,400 --> 01:35:37,040
souls. 
But the Native Americans in the 

1268
01:35:37,040 --> 01:35:39,640
Southeast most commonly believed
in two souls. 

1269
01:35:40,960 --> 01:35:46,760
And these two souls were there's
a a free soul that is the soul 

1270
01:35:46,760 --> 01:35:50,800
that is able to leave the body 
in dreams and vision quests. 

1271
01:35:51,320 --> 01:35:56,840
And then there's a a second soul
that's bound to the earth that 

1272
01:35:56,840 --> 01:36:00,680
stays after death. 
So after the physical body dies,

1273
01:36:00,960 --> 01:36:05,200
the free soul is able to ascend 
and follow the path of souls 

1274
01:36:05,800 --> 01:36:07,760
while the other soul is bound 
here. 

1275
01:36:08,080 --> 01:36:10,920
And we see an antelope to that 
in in ancient Egypt where 

1276
01:36:10,920 --> 01:36:15,920
there's a BA and a castle. 
And the BA soul is often 

1277
01:36:15,920 --> 01:36:19,520
depicted as a bird with the face
of the deceased. 

1278
01:36:19,520 --> 01:36:24,360
And that's the one that is able 
to go on the journey into the 

1279
01:36:24,360 --> 01:36:28,880
duot like we see in the pyramid 
coffin and and book of the Dead 

1280
01:36:28,880 --> 01:36:34,680
texts. 
Whereas the car remains behind 

1281
01:36:34,840 --> 01:36:39,120
in the form of a statue that is 
sometimes in the burial. 

1282
01:36:39,520 --> 01:36:42,280
Sometimes there are a number of 
cause put in one spot. 

1283
01:36:43,520 --> 01:36:49,480
But I like to think about it 
because we are so meta modern 

1284
01:36:49,480 --> 01:36:52,240
and post Judeo-christian and and
our thinking. 

1285
01:36:54,040 --> 01:36:58,640
I like to think about the the 
free soul or the BA as being 

1286
01:36:58,960 --> 01:37:03,520
akin to our suke or psyche. 
The part of our it's clearly us,

1287
01:37:03,520 --> 01:37:06,640
it's our our emotional mental 
disposition. 

1288
01:37:06,640 --> 01:37:11,120
It's the locus of ourselves that
many believe continue after 

1289
01:37:11,120 --> 01:37:22,000
death, whereas the CA remains 
behind #1 because it's, it comes

1290
01:37:22,000 --> 01:37:24,800
from the earth, it doesn't 
originate somewhere else like 

1291
01:37:24,800 --> 01:37:32,440
the free soul is thought to do. 
And #2IN in in the Egyptian 

1292
01:37:32,440 --> 01:37:36,040
tradition, the car is the source
of luck. 

1293
01:37:36,920 --> 01:37:44,280
It's the source of of beneficial
things bestowed on you from your

1294
01:37:44,280 --> 01:37:47,520
ancestors. 
So it's easy. 

1295
01:37:48,320 --> 01:37:53,480
It might not be correct, but 
it's easy to think of the car as

1296
01:37:53,680 --> 01:37:56,600
genetics. 
You can see how genetics are 

1297
01:37:56,600 --> 01:37:59,840
just as much you as your psyche 
is you. 

1298
01:38:00,480 --> 01:38:04,120
But one remains behind for the 
sake of your descendants. 

1299
01:38:04,160 --> 01:38:08,560
They carry your genes, whereas 
the other one is envisaged as 

1300
01:38:08,560 --> 01:38:14,880
going off somewhere else. 
That being said, these souls, 

1301
01:38:14,880 --> 01:38:17,760
one or more of them can get 
lost. 

1302
01:38:18,040 --> 01:38:24,840
This can happen through trauma, 
through illness, depression, you

1303
01:38:24,840 --> 01:38:32,240
know, and, and, and these states
were seen as requiring someone, 

1304
01:38:33,160 --> 01:38:35,640
the shaman, to go and retrieve 
them. 

1305
01:38:36,160 --> 01:38:39,680
And so they often times they 
would have to go to the land of 

1306
01:38:39,680 --> 01:38:42,800
the dead, find the soul and 
bring it back to them. 

1307
01:38:46,560 --> 01:38:50,360
So soul retrieval is a big part 
of that. 

1308
01:38:50,360 --> 01:38:54,600
And that that that qualifies 
them as a psychopomp, which is 

1309
01:38:54,600 --> 01:38:58,680
this. 
It's similar to what we're 

1310
01:38:58,680 --> 01:39:01,320
seeing in Mountainville with the
shamans guiding the dead. 

1311
01:39:01,760 --> 01:39:04,680
Instead of guiding them to the 
realm of the dead, they're 

1312
01:39:04,680 --> 01:39:10,040
guiding them back because the 
body isn't ready to die and it 

1313
01:39:10,040 --> 01:39:17,640
needs its soul to remain active 
participant in the, the, the 

1314
01:39:17,640 --> 01:39:21,520
tribe to contribute what they 
contribute, which might be 

1315
01:39:22,000 --> 01:39:25,600
hunting, it might be sewing, you
know, it could be anything. 

1316
01:39:25,880 --> 01:39:30,960
But they need them for the tribe
to persist. 

1317
01:39:31,920 --> 01:39:36,800
There's not just an infinite 
number of, of people who can 

1318
01:39:36,800 --> 01:39:42,800
say, make bread, you know, or, 
or knows how to go out and 

1319
01:39:42,800 --> 01:39:46,200
gather all these herbs. 
So it's incumbent upon them for 

1320
01:39:46,200 --> 01:39:49,840
the sake of the whole tribe to 
go and retrieve this soul, bring

1321
01:39:49,840 --> 01:39:56,560
it back to them. 
But they do these things often 

1322
01:39:56,560 --> 01:40:01,160
in conjunction with certain 
astrological timings. 

1323
01:40:01,160 --> 01:40:05,160
So yes, they're also astrologers
in a way now. 

1324
01:40:05,640 --> 01:40:08,320
They didn't divide the year in 
the same way we do. 

1325
01:40:09,600 --> 01:40:15,400
We're a, a, a solar people. 
We divide our calendar into the 

1326
01:40:15,400 --> 01:40:21,200
360 plus degrees of the solar 
circuit, the the annual circuit,

1327
01:40:22,040 --> 01:40:27,000
we divide that into an equal 
segment of of of 12 sections, 

1328
01:40:27,000 --> 01:40:34,040
each of which has 30° in them. 
You know, so everything we do 

1329
01:40:34,280 --> 01:40:40,560
and and did from planting to 
harvesting, everything was based

1330
01:40:40,560 --> 01:40:45,160
on on that solar circuit. 
They were a lunar people and 

1331
01:40:45,160 --> 01:40:49,760
many still are, but they used a 
lunar calendar and we usually 

1332
01:40:49,760 --> 01:40:57,760
think of the lunar calendar as 
being 13 months of 28 days each,

1333
01:40:57,760 --> 01:41:00,560
which gives us the same end 
result of a year. 

1334
01:41:01,400 --> 01:41:03,880
And but it's it doesn't line up 
with the sun. 

1335
01:41:03,920 --> 01:41:07,040
It takes 19 years for the 2 to 
align. 

1336
01:41:07,040 --> 01:41:13,120
That's called metonic time. 
Well, for them, they didn't look

1337
01:41:13,120 --> 01:41:19,120
at the the lunar year they were 
observing. 

1338
01:41:19,280 --> 01:41:24,440
And this probably took centuries
of one person observing, passing

1339
01:41:24,440 --> 01:41:26,360
that information on him 
observing. 

1340
01:41:27,040 --> 01:41:30,680
But they're not just looking at 
the moon phases because the moon

1341
01:41:30,680 --> 01:41:33,200
changes. 
You think if you were, if you 

1342
01:41:33,200 --> 01:41:37,440
had no idea about how long a 
year was and you were watching 

1343
01:41:37,440 --> 01:41:43,040
the sun, the sun doesn't change 
physically, it stays circular. 

1344
01:41:43,280 --> 01:41:46,880
But the moon changes, goes 
through phases and changes. 

1345
01:41:47,280 --> 01:41:51,840
So naturally that would lend 
itself to keeping time more 

1346
01:41:52,080 --> 01:41:54,680
easily and quickly than would 
the the sun. 

1347
01:41:55,040 --> 01:41:59,200
But in addition to the the 
cyclical changes, they noticed 

1348
01:41:59,200 --> 01:42:04,040
that just like with the sun 
through the seasons, it would it

1349
01:42:04,040 --> 01:42:10,000
would rise on a different place 
on the horizon and it would rise

1350
01:42:10,000 --> 01:42:12,520
to a different height in the 
sky. 

1351
01:42:13,760 --> 01:42:16,280
And that's what what we're 
dealing with with when you look 

1352
01:42:16,280 --> 01:42:20,800
at the poverty point cultures 
down in Louisiana where they 

1353
01:42:20,800 --> 01:42:25,120
have the wood hinges, you know, 
these hinges and the, the mound 

1354
01:42:25,360 --> 01:42:28,960
complexes function this they, 
they function this the same way 

1355
01:42:29,240 --> 01:42:34,720
where you can stand in one spot 
and at the moment of moonrise or

1356
01:42:34,720 --> 01:42:39,760
sunrise, you determine which of 
these these poles or which of 

1357
01:42:39,760 --> 01:42:45,840
these mounds aligns with the 
moonrise at a given time. 

1358
01:42:46,520 --> 01:42:52,000
And that's how they discovered, 
well, I shouldn't say that's how

1359
01:42:52,000 --> 01:42:53,520
they discovered, that's why they
built them. 

1360
01:42:53,520 --> 01:43:00,440
But they discovered that the 
moon had a broader cycle of 18.6

1361
01:43:00,440 --> 01:43:05,000
years. 
And they call that the the minor

1362
01:43:05,000 --> 01:43:08,400
and major lunistices or or lunar
standstills. 

1363
01:43:08,640 --> 01:43:11,120
It's the lunar equivalent of a 
solstice. 

1364
01:43:12,200 --> 01:43:18,640
It's called a lunistus. 
And when we got to the major and

1365
01:43:18,640 --> 01:43:26,000
the minor, those for them, we're
literally understood as the 

1366
01:43:26,000 --> 01:43:30,600
world being recreated at that 
moment, all of creation was 

1367
01:43:30,600 --> 01:43:33,160
renewed. 
Naturally, they didn't feel a 

1368
01:43:33,160 --> 01:43:35,280
pause. 
It was, there's a just like we 

1369
01:43:35,280 --> 01:43:37,840
have continuity of consciousness
through the seasons. 

1370
01:43:38,520 --> 01:43:41,360
But they understood that at that
point, everything was renewed. 

1371
01:43:41,840 --> 01:43:46,720
And they started using it in a 
magical context eventually, 

1372
01:43:46,720 --> 01:43:51,640
because a drought kept crept in.
Now, Cahokia was the first big, 

1373
01:43:52,120 --> 01:43:55,400
major, complex site with 
hundreds of thousands of people 

1374
01:43:55,800 --> 01:43:59,560
potentially living there. 
You can imagine how much corn 

1375
01:44:00,040 --> 01:44:02,760
would be required to sustain 
them. 

1376
01:44:03,200 --> 01:44:07,520
We're talking about millions of 
corn plants just to sustain them

1377
01:44:07,520 --> 01:44:13,640
for a year. 
So when drought came, they don't

1378
01:44:13,640 --> 01:44:16,680
know what to do. 
You know, they're, they're dying

1379
01:44:16,680 --> 01:44:19,280
off in huge numbers. 
Some are migrating, trying to go

1380
01:44:19,280 --> 01:44:22,960
somewhere where it's better. 
So how do they sustain this 

1381
01:44:22,960 --> 01:44:27,120
population? 
Well, they started timing 

1382
01:44:27,120 --> 01:44:34,440
rituals with these major and 
minor lunar sandstills to try to

1383
01:44:34,480 --> 01:44:38,760
affect time being restarted that
they could, if they did the 

1384
01:44:38,760 --> 01:44:42,280
ritual just right, acted out 
the, the things that happened at

1385
01:44:42,280 --> 01:44:45,400
the beginning of time in just 
the right way, they could 

1386
01:44:45,400 --> 01:44:52,640
restart creation themselves. 
So yes, the, the, there was a 

1387
01:44:52,640 --> 01:44:56,560
heavy astrological component to 
what the shamans were doing, 

1388
01:44:56,560 --> 01:45:01,040
especially by that time. 
Now, prior to that, it most 

1389
01:45:01,040 --> 01:45:06,160
evidence, it looks like they're 
aware of this lunar timing, but 

1390
01:45:06,160 --> 01:45:09,800
instead of trying to use it to 
restart time, they're trying to 

1391
01:45:09,800 --> 01:45:17,520
use it to increase or embrace 
meteorological activity to make 

1392
01:45:17,520 --> 01:45:21,040
it rain. 
And that's what early sweat 

1393
01:45:21,040 --> 01:45:23,400
lodges, the earliest sweat 
lodges looks like they were 

1394
01:45:23,400 --> 01:45:25,920
doing. 
It wasn't just a way to relax in

1395
01:45:25,920 --> 01:45:28,880
a hot tub. 
It was a ritual for the filling 

1396
01:45:28,880 --> 01:45:34,120
up with all that steam was a way
to affect rainfall on a, on a 

1397
01:45:34,120 --> 01:45:37,840
miniature, on a microcosmic 
scale to affect broader 

1398
01:45:37,840 --> 01:45:40,520
rainfall, you know, in the world
around them. 

1399
01:45:41,000 --> 01:45:45,440
So very, very astrological. 
And what, what was the 3rd 

1400
01:45:45,840 --> 01:45:48,800
qualifier you mentioned? 
You said astrological. 

1401
01:45:48,920 --> 01:45:51,000
Psycho Nod. 
I mean, we kind of I mean, it 

1402
01:45:51,000 --> 01:45:52,840
kind of touches on a little bit,
yeah. 

1403
01:45:53,520 --> 01:45:57,280
But yeah, I know it's it's a 
good breakdown. 

1404
01:45:57,280 --> 01:46:01,800
And yeah, I think that as you 
mentioned, when we think about 

1405
01:46:01,800 --> 01:46:06,560
these, you know, somebody 
pictures somebody, you know, 

1406
01:46:06,560 --> 01:46:10,000
with a group and leading them in
some sort of like psychedelic 

1407
01:46:10,000 --> 01:46:12,160
circle or trance circle or 
something like that. 

1408
01:46:12,160 --> 01:46:15,120
But obviously there's a lot more
involved with that. 

1409
01:46:15,240 --> 01:46:20,920
And as academia dives even 
deeper into these topics, I 

1410
01:46:20,920 --> 01:46:22,880
think that we'll probably see 
more and more of kind of what 

1411
01:46:22,880 --> 01:46:27,400
you're talking about, which 
brings me into my next question.

1412
01:46:27,760 --> 01:46:32,080
If the Missus Missawaska 
hypothesis is correct, it's 

1413
01:46:32,080 --> 01:46:35,040
obviously enormous. 
But why do you think academia 

1414
01:46:35,040 --> 01:46:38,320
hasn't wrestled with the 
possibility of this even harder?

1415
01:46:40,480 --> 01:46:49,440
I think it's a simple reason the
like I said earlier, the none of

1416
01:46:49,440 --> 01:46:55,760
the academic sources in any of 
the different disciplines that 

1417
01:46:55,760 --> 01:47:01,640
I've encountered are aware that 
in in DMT is in the honey 

1418
01:47:01,640 --> 01:47:05,480
locust. 
It's not mentioned anywhere and 

1419
01:47:05,480 --> 01:47:13,000
the only source that I did find 
it in is something that no self 

1420
01:47:13,000 --> 01:47:16,560
respecting academic would open. 
You know, some simple 

1421
01:47:16,560 --> 01:47:20,840
tryptamines, a book written by a
guy who's trying to figure out 

1422
01:47:20,840 --> 01:47:25,480
what can I trip on outside? 
Like what in nature can I use to

1423
01:47:25,480 --> 01:47:29,400
have a psychedelic experience. 
And I think that's the main 

1424
01:47:29,400 --> 01:47:34,600
reason. 
It has to do with their 

1425
01:47:34,600 --> 01:47:39,840
readiness to dismiss a source if
it doesn't meet their criteria, 

1426
01:47:40,880 --> 01:47:43,160
which for them means peer 
review. 

1427
01:47:43,160 --> 01:47:46,720
And, and, and there's a lot to 
be said for peer review, but to 

1428
01:47:46,720 --> 01:47:50,880
pretend that the author of 
Keeper of the Keeper of the 

1429
01:47:50,880 --> 01:47:54,240
Trout book some simple 
tryptamines, the notion that 

1430
01:47:54,240 --> 01:47:56,400
that wasn't peer review is 
ridiculous. 

1431
01:47:56,400 --> 01:48:01,920
It wasn't reviewed by peers in a
university, but he had a team of

1432
01:48:01,920 --> 01:48:06,200
people helping him with this 
mass mass spectrometer. 

1433
01:48:07,080 --> 01:48:09,920
How do you pronounce it? 
Mask spectrometer. 

1434
01:48:11,400 --> 01:48:14,200
That's how he tested it and 
found DMT present. 

1435
01:48:14,720 --> 01:48:19,320
But the idea that that laymen 
are that are sophisticated 

1436
01:48:19,320 --> 01:48:26,200
enough to do that aren't worthy 
of consideration because they 

1437
01:48:26,200 --> 01:48:29,440
didn't graduate from a 
university is absurd. 

1438
01:48:30,840 --> 01:48:33,840
And will only hurt them in the 
long run. 

1439
01:48:33,840 --> 01:48:36,600
You could. 
Say the the opposite though, 

1440
01:48:36,600 --> 01:48:39,040
too, right? 
Like you could say, you know, 

1441
01:48:39,040 --> 01:48:42,360
while obviously that's just how 
you do science using the 

1442
01:48:42,360 --> 01:48:45,600
scientific method and all these 
techniques, there's something to

1443
01:48:45,600 --> 01:48:48,120
be said about mind which we 
don't fully understand yet. 

1444
01:48:48,120 --> 01:48:51,920
And then these compounds that 
interact with that mind that 

1445
01:48:51,920 --> 01:48:54,840
maybe even a lot of these, you 
know, maybe some of these people

1446
01:48:54,840 --> 01:48:57,400
have used cannabis in college or
something like that. 

1447
01:48:57,400 --> 01:49:01,960
But I've only found really a few
academics that are outwardly 

1448
01:49:01,960 --> 01:49:05,480
spoken about their use other 
than the people that write about

1449
01:49:05,480 --> 01:49:09,640
or work within psychedelic 
science, if you know what I'm 

1450
01:49:09,640 --> 01:49:11,840
saying. 
So it's like, I think, I think 

1451
01:49:11,840 --> 01:49:15,400
it's they're missing this 
component which you're willing 

1452
01:49:15,400 --> 01:49:18,840
to do, which is like put 
yourself in these mindsets or, 

1453
01:49:19,200 --> 01:49:21,320
or actually test these things 
out. 

1454
01:49:21,320 --> 01:49:24,600
Personally, I don't see much of 
that within academia. 

1455
01:49:24,600 --> 01:49:29,720
And if you did, you probably see
more ethnobotany, more, you 

1456
01:49:29,720 --> 01:49:33,200
know, a lot of chemical samples 
being studied, looking for 

1457
01:49:33,200 --> 01:49:35,240
psychoactive compounds and 
things like that. 

1458
01:49:35,240 --> 01:49:38,040
So that's why I think what 
you're doing is important, 

1459
01:49:38,040 --> 01:49:41,760
because it's bringing more 
attention to something not only 

1460
01:49:41,760 --> 01:49:48,920
just within a field, but also 
this specific topic, which is 

1461
01:49:48,920 --> 01:49:52,000
Native American psychoactive 
compounds and rituals. 

1462
01:49:53,160 --> 01:50:01,880
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I agree. 
And the, the, the problem is 

1463
01:50:03,200 --> 01:50:09,000
that unless what you're 
researching, if, if you happen 

1464
01:50:09,000 --> 01:50:14,160
to be an academic researching 
psychoactive, narcotic, 

1465
01:50:14,160 --> 01:50:20,480
hallucinogenic plants, no one 
wants to fund that. 

1466
01:50:21,040 --> 01:50:26,200
You know, the only, only ones 
that want to fund that are the 

1467
01:50:26,240 --> 01:50:30,440
the pharmaceutical companies 
that think they'll get the 

1468
01:50:30,440 --> 01:50:33,800
benefit of being able to market 
whatever is found. 

1469
01:50:34,640 --> 01:50:39,080
So you get people like, you 
know, Wade Davis, brilliant 

1470
01:50:40,160 --> 01:50:44,680
researcher and writer, but he's 
sent to the Amazon by 

1471
01:50:44,760 --> 01:50:48,200
pharmaceutical companies looking
for drugs. 

1472
01:50:48,200 --> 01:50:52,480
He's sent to Haiti looking for 
the zombie drug so that they can

1473
01:50:52,800 --> 01:50:56,600
get a new anesthetic. 
If it's not something like that,

1474
01:50:58,240 --> 01:51:03,000
Universities just I mean, and 
and I see a change happening and

1475
01:51:03,000 --> 01:51:10,000
hopefully it'll happen more. 
But prior to literally the last 

1476
01:51:10,320 --> 01:51:15,520
1510, fifteen years, you, you 
wouldn't just not get funded. 

1477
01:51:16,040 --> 01:51:19,280
You would be dismissed from your
station. 

1478
01:51:19,400 --> 01:51:23,280
You know, that's just not 
something that that they wanted 

1479
01:51:23,280 --> 01:51:28,920
to be associated with. 
But you know more for people 

1480
01:51:28,920 --> 01:51:32,240
like me. 
Yeah, totally. 

1481
01:51:32,960 --> 01:51:35,200
And like I said, I appreciate, 
that's why I appreciate your 

1482
01:51:35,200 --> 01:51:38,240
work is because you are willing 
to put yourself out there like 

1483
01:51:38,240 --> 01:51:42,240
that. 
What evidence would you like to 

1484
01:51:42,240 --> 01:51:44,800
see discovered next on while 
we're on this topic? 

1485
01:51:44,800 --> 01:51:49,080
Like chemical residues, 
botanical finds, more cave 

1486
01:51:49,120 --> 01:51:53,560
iconography, like what are you 
hopeful for, looking forward to?

1487
01:51:56,200 --> 01:52:05,400
I would love to see, I would 
love to see some research done 

1488
01:52:06,600 --> 01:52:12,560
in an attempt to discover any 
evidence of, of tryptamines in 

1489
01:52:12,560 --> 01:52:17,880
pots shells. 
You know, I said earlier that 

1490
01:52:18,200 --> 01:52:22,400
it's doubtful that it would be 
there, but at the same time, the

1491
01:52:22,400 --> 01:52:28,480
team that was researching the 
shell cups at Spyro, that's not 

1492
01:52:28,480 --> 01:52:31,160
something they were looking for.
You know, they were looking for 

1493
01:52:31,160 --> 01:52:38,600
things like datura and tobacco. 
So it's doubtful that that they 

1494
01:52:38,600 --> 01:52:42,040
would have known even if they 
did found it, find it because it

1495
01:52:42,040 --> 01:52:44,200
wasn't something they were 
actively searching for. 

1496
01:52:45,080 --> 01:52:48,640
But that that's what I would 
love to see some effort, some 

1497
01:52:48,640 --> 01:52:55,640
time, some resources put into 
and I think the best, the best 

1498
01:52:55,640 --> 01:53:03,640
chances would be within Cherokee
artifacts because we know that 

1499
01:53:03,640 --> 01:53:07,840
they were planting these things.
We know that they were it was 

1500
01:53:07,840 --> 01:53:13,440
wrapped up with their ball game.
And, and just as an example of, 

1501
01:53:13,440 --> 01:53:19,080
of again, how we're so divorced 
from the idea that everything is

1502
01:53:19,080 --> 01:53:23,800
sacred for us, a ball game is 
recreation. 

1503
01:53:24,320 --> 01:53:31,560
You know, we go to have a good 
time, watch two teams play, but 

1504
01:53:31,560 --> 01:53:35,920
it wasn't like that for them. 
What what they're acting out on 

1505
01:53:35,920 --> 01:53:40,560
the field where they play these 
games was cosmological. 

1506
01:53:41,000 --> 01:53:44,720
You know, they're they're 
participating in cosmological 

1507
01:53:44,720 --> 01:53:48,080
powers. 
And there's even evidence that 

1508
01:53:49,360 --> 01:53:54,160
the winners or losers of these 
games also served a divinatory 

1509
01:53:54,160 --> 01:53:59,960
function that could tell them 
how well crops might do or how 

1510
01:54:01,080 --> 01:54:05,400
bad they might do, which, 
knowing something like that 

1511
01:54:06,440 --> 01:54:10,560
gives them time to prepare for 
the worst. 

1512
01:54:10,600 --> 01:54:16,280
You know, no matter how you feel
about divination and how how 

1513
01:54:16,640 --> 01:54:22,440
legitimate the information 
gleaned from it is for them, 

1514
01:54:22,440 --> 01:54:25,440
it's real and it changes the 
entire way they prepare for 

1515
01:54:25,440 --> 01:54:31,000
what's coming. 
And in that preparing, chances 

1516
01:54:31,000 --> 01:54:37,440
are you're going to discover new
ways to prepare and if it works,

1517
01:54:37,760 --> 01:54:41,040
will likely become the norm for 
the next years, for the 

1518
01:54:41,040 --> 01:54:43,840
following decades. 
You know, it's through that 

1519
01:54:44,240 --> 01:54:48,480
reaching into the unknown and, 
and trying to find a solution 

1520
01:54:49,040 --> 01:54:53,360
that that new lifeways emerge 
and, and those kinds of, of 

1521
01:54:53,360 --> 01:54:57,120
settings. 
So, so yeah, I, I would love to 

1522
01:54:57,120 --> 01:55:03,600
see some resources poured just 
into the, the Missahawska 

1523
01:55:03,600 --> 01:55:09,960
hypothesis as a whole, because I
do, I really do. 

1524
01:55:12,320 --> 01:55:15,200
I don't want to say I believe 
that's, that's what was going 

1525
01:55:15,200 --> 01:55:20,200
on, but I do think there's ample
evidence to support the 

1526
01:55:20,200 --> 01:55:25,480
hypothesis. 
And if, if more people within 

1527
01:55:25,480 --> 01:55:29,640
the that domain of study like, 
you know, did like Christine Van

1528
01:55:29,640 --> 01:55:34,200
Poole has done and take that 
seriously, regardless of the 

1529
01:55:34,200 --> 01:55:38,080
fact that it wasn't found by 
something, someone in their 

1530
01:55:38,080 --> 01:55:41,560
department, you know, that's the
problem you run into is that I 

1531
01:55:41,560 --> 01:55:45,200
don't have credentials to be 
studying this stuff. 

1532
01:55:45,680 --> 01:55:47,680
But I also don't think they're 
needed. 

1533
01:55:47,680 --> 01:55:52,160
The literature's published. 
You don't have to take a class 

1534
01:55:52,160 --> 01:55:55,800
and get a diploma to read the 
same text that the professor is 

1535
01:55:55,800 --> 01:55:57,680
teaching from. 
Those texts are available. 

1536
01:56:00,200 --> 01:56:04,000
So that that's what I would like
to see more, more research 

1537
01:56:04,000 --> 01:56:10,520
poured into that and more 
scholars, not necessarily 

1538
01:56:10,520 --> 01:56:16,640
academic scholars, preferably 
from both fields stepping in to 

1539
01:56:16,640 --> 01:56:20,760
look at these problems. 
Because like you said, most 

1540
01:56:20,760 --> 01:56:23,240
academics aren't doing 
psychedelics. 

1541
01:56:23,720 --> 01:56:29,880
So when they see psychedelics or
or evidence of their use, 

1542
01:56:30,440 --> 01:56:31,680
they're not always going to see 
it. 

1543
01:56:31,680 --> 01:56:35,080
They're not looking at it with 
the eyes of someone that's been 

1544
01:56:35,080 --> 01:56:37,880
outstripping root bark and 
boiling it with other plants, 

1545
01:56:37,920 --> 01:56:42,920
you know, to, to consume it. 
So it just goes right, right 

1546
01:56:42,920 --> 01:56:46,360
past them. 
See, I think we could all 

1547
01:56:46,360 --> 01:56:50,960
benefit from people from all 
walks of life who who have an 

1548
01:56:50,960 --> 01:56:55,120
interest in this stuff looking 
at it and telling the rest of us

1549
01:56:55,120 --> 01:56:58,680
what they see. 
Absolutely. 

1550
01:56:58,720 --> 01:57:05,520
And why not go to the source to 
and use that lens of gnosis or 

1551
01:57:05,520 --> 01:57:08,480
knowledge and kind of apply it 
to that kind of like what you're

1552
01:57:08,480 --> 01:57:09,880
doing? 
So yeah, totally. 

1553
01:57:11,640 --> 01:57:14,600
One more question before we get 
to Mike's mind melters. 

1554
01:57:15,240 --> 01:57:19,920
Do you think the ghosts or you 
know, what we're calling ghosts 

1555
01:57:19,920 --> 01:57:22,080
are the dead? 
Or do you think they're like 

1556
01:57:22,080 --> 01:57:27,360
some, you know, like information
imprints that you know gets 

1557
01:57:27,360 --> 01:57:29,360
amplified through ritual? 
Or do you think there's some 

1558
01:57:29,360 --> 01:57:33,880
sort of like interdimensional 
beings or something along those 

1559
01:57:33,880 --> 01:57:37,840
lines? 
That's a good question. 

1560
01:57:38,280 --> 01:57:42,000
And I think by the second you 
mean like the kind of like the 

1561
01:57:42,000 --> 01:57:46,800
Stone Tape theory, like it's 
recorded in the environment and.

1562
01:57:47,840 --> 01:57:50,560
Yes. 
Or even like a Rupert Sheldrick 

1563
01:57:50,760 --> 01:57:52,760
morphic residence, like 
something. 

1564
01:57:52,760 --> 01:57:55,200
Yeah. 
Is like, you know, I don't know 

1565
01:57:55,200 --> 01:57:57,600
if you've ever seen that 
documentary, you know, Muscle 

1566
01:57:57,600 --> 01:58:01,160
Shoals about the famous 
recording studio. 

1567
01:58:01,520 --> 01:58:06,400
But they say like, anybody that 
records in the studio says 

1568
01:58:06,400 --> 01:58:09,840
there's like something like 
there's like a living presence 

1569
01:58:09,840 --> 01:58:11,720
in the room. 
And that's why all these great 

1570
01:58:11,720 --> 01:58:15,720
albums came out of there. 
So something along those lines. 

1571
01:58:16,560 --> 01:58:20,200
I certainly believe in that. 
You know, the Greek, the Greeks 

1572
01:58:20,200 --> 01:58:24,360
called it a spiritus loci, a a 
genius of a location. 

1573
01:58:25,000 --> 01:58:28,880
And we think about a genius as 
being someone radically 

1574
01:58:28,880 --> 01:58:32,080
intelligent of their own 
constitution. 

1575
01:58:32,760 --> 01:58:37,600
But this wasn't the case for the
Greeks and and people in the 

1576
01:58:37,600 --> 01:58:40,800
Middle East. 
Genius is something you acquire.

1577
01:58:40,800 --> 01:58:44,480
It's like a, a daemon that 
comes, like Socrates said, he 

1578
01:58:44,480 --> 01:58:49,840
has a daemonian that informs him
of things before they happen and

1579
01:58:49,840 --> 01:58:52,680
tells him how to act or respond 
in certain ways. 

1580
01:58:55,520 --> 01:59:02,160
And I absolutely believe that 
certain locations harbor these 

1581
01:59:02,160 --> 01:59:06,920
types of spirits entities. 
You know, I don't think it 

1582
01:59:06,920 --> 01:59:13,320
matters what we call them to 
acknowledge that there is an 

1583
01:59:13,320 --> 01:59:15,560
effect. 
You know, when you look at 

1584
01:59:15,560 --> 01:59:20,280
something like Stax Records in 
Memphis or Muscle Shoals or or 

1585
01:59:20,280 --> 01:59:26,320
Motown in Detroit, I mean, 
there's something going on in 

1586
01:59:26,320 --> 01:59:30,960
that spot regardless of who is 
there playing the instrument, 

1587
01:59:30,960 --> 01:59:33,240
who is singing the song, who 
wrote the song. 

1588
01:59:33,720 --> 01:59:39,640
But the moment it is brought to 
that location and laid down on 

1589
01:59:39,800 --> 01:59:43,200
on tape, something magical 
happens. 

1590
01:59:43,880 --> 01:59:48,240
And the same is true at at 
certain locations. 

1591
01:59:48,240 --> 01:59:50,760
I know, I know you've, we've 
talked a little bit in the past 

1592
01:59:50,760 --> 01:59:56,320
about, you know, outdoors kinds 
of stuff and even festivals, you

1593
01:59:56,320 --> 01:59:59,560
know, when they have them at the
same place year after year, 

1594
01:59:59,560 --> 02:00:05,080
every other year, something. 
Happens there. 

1595
02:00:05,080 --> 02:00:09,120
Now, whether it's brought with 
the activities of the people who

1596
02:00:09,120 --> 02:00:14,320
are there doing whatever they're
doing or whether those people 

1597
02:00:14,320 --> 02:00:19,800
chose that place to do it 
because it's conducive to or is 

1598
02:00:19,800 --> 02:00:24,960
in alignment with what they plan
to do, I don't think we can 

1599
02:00:24,960 --> 02:00:27,040
necessarily know. 
And I also don't think it 

1600
02:00:27,040 --> 02:00:30,200
matters. 
But I do believe that there are 

1601
02:00:30,200 --> 02:00:35,080
are we could say 
electromagnetic, but but if it's

1602
02:00:35,080 --> 02:00:40,200
something we can't observe 
scientifically and put our 

1603
02:00:40,200 --> 02:00:45,120
finger on, it doesn't matter 
what we call it, because 

1604
02:00:45,680 --> 02:00:47,880
anything we call it, we're 
explaining it away. 

1605
02:00:47,880 --> 02:00:50,920
We're not explaining it. 
We're just kind of putting it in

1606
02:00:50,920 --> 02:00:56,160
a neat box, but but being open 
to the mystery of why this 

1607
02:00:56,160 --> 02:00:58,680
place, you know, why these 
people. 

1608
02:01:00,960 --> 02:01:03,080
Yeah, there, I think there's 
something spooky going on. 

1609
02:01:03,560 --> 02:01:09,360
Do I think there are ghosts? 
I mean, yes, I think in a way 

1610
02:01:09,360 --> 02:01:15,000
we're ghosts. 
And and, and Paulo, this is 

1611
02:01:15,040 --> 02:01:19,720
Bantu African tradition that was
preserved by slaves that were 

1612
02:01:19,720 --> 02:01:26,320
exported into Cuba. 
They preserved their religion in

1613
02:01:26,320 --> 02:01:31,240
the New World and it of course 
naturally changed to reflect the

1614
02:01:31,240 --> 02:01:34,520
area they're performing. 
It took on some of the 

1615
02:01:34,520 --> 02:01:37,240
characteristics of the 
Protestants. 

1616
02:01:37,240 --> 02:01:43,600
They were enslaved by the 
Nigerian Lukumi practitioners 

1617
02:01:43,600 --> 02:01:48,840
that they were enslaved next to.
But one of the things that I 

1618
02:01:48,840 --> 02:01:56,360
was, I was told when I was first
initiated in to Paulo, was that 

1619
02:01:57,360 --> 02:02:01,160
we're only alive to the degree 
that the dead can pass through 

1620
02:02:01,160 --> 02:02:04,200
us. 
That the moment the dead stop 

1621
02:02:04,200 --> 02:02:07,440
passing through US is the moment
we are also dead. 

1622
02:02:08,160 --> 02:02:14,040
And you know, if you look at the
world as we've got the material 

1623
02:02:14,040 --> 02:02:18,080
realm and then something else 
and the domain of psychology, 

1624
02:02:18,080 --> 02:02:21,080
they're going to call that 
mental or psychological where we

1625
02:02:21,080 --> 02:02:24,000
project things. 
If you go to a more traditional 

1626
02:02:24,000 --> 02:02:26,160
society, they'll say that's the 
land of the dead and the 

1627
02:02:26,160 --> 02:02:29,000
ancestors. 
You go to atheistic society, 

1628
02:02:29,000 --> 02:02:31,440
they're going to say that's the 
realm of the gods, spirits, 

1629
02:02:31,440 --> 02:02:33,400
angels, demons, things like 
that. 

1630
02:02:34,920 --> 02:02:37,640
But it doesn't matter what we 
call it. 

1631
02:02:37,640 --> 02:02:41,040
We're basically dividing the 
world into into two. 

1632
02:02:41,920 --> 02:02:49,320
And if the dead are spirits, and
if the other world is the 

1633
02:02:49,320 --> 02:02:54,600
spiritual domain juxtaposed with
our material domain, does it 

1634
02:02:54,600 --> 02:02:57,560
matter what we call it? 
We're really just saying there's

1635
02:02:57,560 --> 02:03:01,440
something else that 
interpenetrates and affects us. 

1636
02:03:03,520 --> 02:03:06,640
Your cultural conditioning is 
what's going to determine how 

1637
02:03:06,640 --> 02:03:11,880
you identify that thing. 
But I think there's a, there's a

1638
02:03:11,880 --> 02:03:20,120
certain magic in allowing 
yourself to be vulnerable to not

1639
02:03:20,120 --> 02:03:25,920
knowing and still participating 
in it and living in the mystery.

1640
02:03:25,920 --> 02:03:33,040
You know, for, for me, that's, 
that's far more honest with 

1641
02:03:33,040 --> 02:03:35,520
myself. 
If I try and say that's a ghost,

1642
02:03:36,840 --> 02:03:41,360
that's an alien, that's a fairy.
You know, I think what what 

1643
02:03:41,360 --> 02:03:47,960
we're doing is reducing our 
ability to perceive its action. 

1644
02:03:48,440 --> 02:03:53,840
The minute we say that's a car 
is the same minute it's not 

1645
02:03:53,840 --> 02:03:56,280
going to fly. 
And if it does, we probably 

1646
02:03:56,280 --> 02:04:00,560
won't see it as a car anymore. 
You know, So being, being in 

1647
02:04:00,560 --> 02:04:05,680
that state of vulnerability of, 
of not knowing, I think gives us

1648
02:04:05,680 --> 02:04:11,760
more opportunity to observe the 
phenomena, the phenomena of the 

1649
02:04:11,760 --> 02:04:16,000
other, rather than trying to say
it's this thing and this thing 

1650
02:04:16,000 --> 02:04:20,960
does this, it's characterized by
these behaviors, which is 

1651
02:04:21,000 --> 02:04:25,880
naturally going to make us 
dismissive of or completely 

1652
02:04:25,960 --> 02:04:29,120
blind to anything else it might 
do. 

1653
02:04:31,160 --> 02:04:35,400
Interesting. 
Well, thank you for answering 

1654
02:04:35,400 --> 02:04:37,080
that. 
Are you ready for Mike's mind 

1655
02:04:37,080 --> 02:04:40,200
melters? 
I don't know man, that sounds 

1656
02:04:40,760 --> 02:04:43,680
that sounds intimidating. 
I think it'll be good for you, 

1657
02:04:44,520 --> 02:05:03,440
but here we go. 
All right, Danny, Are you ready?

1658
02:05:03,440 --> 02:05:06,080
I'm going to ask you 5 
philosophical questions. 

1659
02:05:06,440 --> 02:05:09,960
Just answer them the best and as
concisely as you can. 

1660
02:05:10,080 --> 02:05:13,200
And here we go. 
Hit me. 

1661
02:05:13,800 --> 02:05:18,320
Number one, what is something 
that you believe in that you 

1662
02:05:18,320 --> 02:05:22,160
know is probably wrong or 
logical, but you are just not 

1663
02:05:22,160 --> 02:05:35,720
being honest with yourself? 
Probably that I that I exist and

1664
02:05:35,720 --> 02:05:42,560
I specifically mean existing as 
an individual, something I think

1665
02:05:42,560 --> 02:05:48,520
that's probably fallacious. 
We have this first party 

1666
02:05:48,520 --> 02:05:52,480
perspective of the world. 
We have an internal life, 

1667
02:05:52,600 --> 02:06:00,440
eternal dialogue, but we buy 
into this notion that we're 

1668
02:06:00,440 --> 02:06:03,920
abstracted from the world, we're
abstracted from nature. 

1669
02:06:06,280 --> 02:06:11,520
And I think it's useful 
particularly for the discovery 

1670
02:06:11,520 --> 02:06:15,720
of technology, creation of art 
and things like that. 

1671
02:06:18,320 --> 02:06:20,280
But I think it's probably 
fallacious. 

1672
02:06:20,600 --> 02:06:23,640
And that ties in with with with 
free will. 

1673
02:06:24,200 --> 02:06:26,160
We all like to believe we have 
free will. 

1674
02:06:26,200 --> 02:06:30,480
And I'm not necessarily sure 
that's the case. 

1675
02:06:30,480 --> 02:06:36,960
We are, we are subject to so 
many external factors. 

1676
02:06:37,120 --> 02:06:42,800
We're subject to so many genetic
tendencies, we're subject to 

1677
02:06:42,800 --> 02:06:49,280
traumatic responses that we 
don't know we have, that it 

1678
02:06:49,280 --> 02:06:56,040
begins to look like we don't so 
much have free will as we have 

1679
02:06:56,040 --> 02:07:04,800
freedom of surrendering or 
struggling, if that makes sense.

1680
02:07:04,800 --> 02:07:09,680
Surrendering to, I hate to use 
the word fate, but surrendering 

1681
02:07:09,680 --> 02:07:15,600
to the world as it is or 
struggling against seeing as it 

1682
02:07:15,600 --> 02:07:19,960
is, which which would also say 
struggling to see the world as 

1683
02:07:19,960 --> 02:07:23,600
you wish it were. 
But I think either way we say 

1684
02:07:23,600 --> 02:07:32,040
it, it really puts a lot of 
suspicion on on the reality of 

1685
02:07:32,040 --> 02:07:39,040
free will and on the question of
whether or not we exist at all 

1686
02:07:39,160 --> 02:07:45,120
as beings that are somehow 
separate from everything else 

1687
02:07:45,520 --> 02:07:49,880
here. 
That's that's probably my I like

1688
02:07:49,880 --> 02:07:51,960
it, my belief. 
Yeah. 

1689
02:07:52,040 --> 02:07:57,200
You know, I always think about 
it like Simone Laplace's 

1690
02:07:57,200 --> 02:08:01,840
billiards break in terms of like
if you're God's billiards break,

1691
02:08:01,840 --> 02:08:07,960
I should say, where if you had 
all the physics and you had the 

1692
02:08:07,960 --> 02:08:11,400
knowledge of the universe, and 
we're able to like, obviously we

1693
02:08:11,400 --> 02:08:14,240
quantify things, right? 
We can observe, we can measure. 

1694
02:08:14,600 --> 02:08:18,880
If you did that on a macro 
scale, you could probably figure

1695
02:08:18,880 --> 02:08:26,000
out about us in that way. 
So like internally we have free 

1696
02:08:26,000 --> 02:08:31,240
will, externally we have not, no
free will, if that makes sense. 

1697
02:08:31,240 --> 02:08:36,400
Like the universe, if there is a
creator or somebody controlling 

1698
02:08:36,400 --> 02:08:38,840
it probably would have the 
knowledge of what's going to 

1699
02:08:38,840 --> 02:08:41,920
happen next. 
And internally we don't have 

1700
02:08:41,920 --> 02:08:44,400
that ability. 
So it's free will. 

1701
02:08:46,200 --> 02:08:52,640
Yeah, I, I, I envision envision 
a car on a highway with 

1702
02:08:52,640 --> 02:09:00,480
guardrails on each side and free
will really amounts to I can hit

1703
02:09:00,480 --> 02:09:05,800
the rail on the left or the rail
on the right, but I'm likely 

1704
02:09:05,800 --> 02:09:07,520
never going to get off this 
highway. 

1705
02:09:09,720 --> 02:09:17,040
Yeah, that's a good way of 
putting it #2 do you think there

1706
02:09:17,040 --> 02:09:20,720
is an objective purpose for 
humanity, and if So, what do you

1707
02:09:20,720 --> 02:09:30,920
think it is? 
I do think that we do have an 

1708
02:09:30,920 --> 02:09:34,040
objective purpose. 
I don't think we can know what 

1709
02:09:34,040 --> 02:09:41,640
it is, and this is not anything 
logical, reasonable, reasonable.

1710
02:09:41,640 --> 02:09:47,440
It's strictly faith that there 
is some purpose to this. 

1711
02:09:47,880 --> 02:09:58,480
Now that being said, I also 
ascribe to the deconstructionist

1712
02:09:58,480 --> 02:10:03,800
idea that we make meaning as we 
go. 

1713
02:10:04,080 --> 02:10:07,400
Now that's not to say that 
meaning does not exist until we 

1714
02:10:07,400 --> 02:10:10,600
make it. 
It's the, it's the part of me 

1715
02:10:10,600 --> 02:10:17,640
that has faith, the part of me 
that has seen it on, you know, 

1716
02:10:18,400 --> 02:10:21,560
1015 grams of mushrooms or 10 
strip acid. 

1717
02:10:22,720 --> 02:10:27,400
Meaning exists in the world and 
those states, whether or not 

1718
02:10:27,400 --> 02:10:30,440
that my awareness of that 
meaning fades afterwards, the 

1719
02:10:30,440 --> 02:10:33,640
memory of it remains. 
And it's in that memory that I 

1720
02:10:33,640 --> 02:10:39,320
have faith that there was a time
when I saw meaning in the world,

1721
02:10:39,880 --> 02:10:48,360
you know, but I also think that 
part of what we do and it's 

1722
02:10:48,480 --> 02:10:52,640
which probably has something to 
do with not being able to know 

1723
02:10:52,640 --> 02:10:55,880
what that meaning is. 
The big meaning that we 

1724
02:10:55,880 --> 02:11:01,080
previously just discussed is 
making meaning as we go. 

1725
02:11:01,440 --> 02:11:05,400
And I hate to use a phrase, you 
know, cliche, new age, kind of 

1726
02:11:05,720 --> 02:11:10,440
like Co creators with God. 
I hate that kind of thinking, 

1727
02:11:10,880 --> 02:11:16,640
you know, but it, but it, it 
does seem to have some kind of 

1728
02:11:20,120 --> 02:11:25,280
grasp of the idea that that we 
do have the power to make 

1729
02:11:25,280 --> 02:11:27,640
meaning. 
And I think that's part of what 

1730
02:11:27,640 --> 02:11:30,440
art art is. 
I think that's part of what 

1731
02:11:30,440 --> 02:11:35,840
discovery technology. 
All of that has to do with with 

1732
02:11:35,840 --> 02:11:42,080
making meaning, but it's 
probably very different from 

1733
02:11:43,280 --> 02:11:50,480
objective meaning in the world. 
Yeah, like God's air or a God's 

1734
02:11:50,480 --> 02:12:00,640
art? 
Yeah, I like it #3 Do you think 

1735
02:12:00,640 --> 02:12:03,920
humans are special or separate 
from nature? 

1736
02:12:04,680 --> 02:12:07,160
If your answer is yes, please 
give me your best example of 

1737
02:12:07,160 --> 02:12:10,000
why. 
No, no. 

1738
02:12:10,000 --> 02:12:11,920
And that goes back to my the 
first question. 

1739
02:12:13,280 --> 02:12:19,280
I don't think we're separate. 
I think we buy into the illusion

1740
02:12:19,360 --> 02:12:26,080
that we're separate, which is 
probably a major source for a 

1741
02:12:26,080 --> 02:12:29,600
lot of the shit that we're 
putting the planet through, you 

1742
02:12:29,600 --> 02:12:37,400
know, just the, the pollution 
that effects innumerable 

1743
02:12:37,440 --> 02:12:42,520
ecosystems, you know, litter 
and, and plastics in the ocean. 

1744
02:12:42,520 --> 02:12:45,080
You know, the the Earth is 
resilient. 

1745
02:12:45,480 --> 02:12:51,200
It's not that I'm saying that 
we're killing the Earth, but we 

1746
02:12:51,200 --> 02:12:57,320
are killing our ourselves by, 
you know, I'm sure there's a 

1747
02:12:57,840 --> 02:13:01,880
what is it Sherwin-Williams that
has the the picture, their 

1748
02:13:02,480 --> 02:13:04,960
slogan is paint the Earth and 
it's a picture of the earth 

1749
02:13:04,960 --> 02:13:08,720
being covered in paint. 
You know, I've always thought 

1750
02:13:08,720 --> 02:13:15,760
that was the most disgusting 
icon who would say that to 

1751
02:13:15,760 --> 02:13:18,720
represent their product and what
they have to offer. 

1752
02:13:18,840 --> 02:13:22,360
But that's what we're doing. 
We're we're covering the planet 

1753
02:13:22,360 --> 02:13:27,280
and in doing so painting a wall 
between ourselves and the planet

1754
02:13:27,680 --> 02:13:31,240
to further abstract us to say 
we're separate, we're above 

1755
02:13:31,240 --> 02:13:35,280
nature. 
But anybody who's taken 

1756
02:13:35,280 --> 02:13:41,080
ayahuasca or good dose mushrooms
knows that nature is far smarter

1757
02:13:41,600 --> 02:13:44,240
than we are. 
And I look at things like 

1758
02:13:46,280 --> 02:13:50,400
there's a moth that looks like 
an owl. 

1759
02:13:51,080 --> 02:13:53,400
You know, it's got owl eyes, it 
looks like it's got owl 

1760
02:13:53,400 --> 02:14:01,040
feathers. 
But that that species didn't 

1761
02:14:01,040 --> 02:14:06,840
have a meeting and say it would 
be cool if we had moth eyes on 

1762
02:14:06,840 --> 02:14:13,840
us, you know, so that then the 
things we eat, you know, it 

1763
02:14:13,840 --> 02:14:18,120
won't affect them. 
But the things that eat us, it's

1764
02:14:18,120 --> 02:14:20,760
their predator. 
So if we could look like the 

1765
02:14:20,760 --> 02:14:24,280
predator of our predators, that 
would be fucking sweet if we 

1766
02:14:24,280 --> 02:14:26,440
could do that, you know, they 
didn't do that. 

1767
02:14:27,480 --> 02:14:31,440
The intelligence of nature 
itself, you know, think about 

1768
02:14:31,440 --> 02:14:33,440
it's once removed. 
It's not that they look like 

1769
02:14:33,440 --> 02:14:36,640
they're predators. 
They look like the predator of 

1770
02:14:36,640 --> 02:14:41,920
their predators. 
That's smart, super smart. 

1771
02:14:42,120 --> 02:14:45,280
There's other moths that look 
like snakes for the same reason.

1772
02:14:45,960 --> 02:14:49,280
You know, the tips of their 
wings are perfect snakeheads 

1773
02:14:49,280 --> 02:14:56,080
with with eyes and and mouths. 
And it just shows that that 

1774
02:14:56,080 --> 02:15:02,760
there is an intelligence, a 
logos present in nature that is 

1775
02:15:03,480 --> 02:15:07,800
far smarter than the most 
intelligent human on the planet 

1776
02:15:08,600 --> 02:15:12,640
and automatic. 
It doesn't take reasoning or or 

1777
02:15:12,680 --> 02:15:15,880
an equation to come to the 
conclusion. 

1778
02:15:15,880 --> 02:15:18,280
It just is. 
It just does. 

1779
02:15:19,040 --> 02:15:23,200
So no, I don't think humans are 
are above or separate from 

1780
02:15:23,200 --> 02:15:26,840
nature. 
It's just the lie we tell 

1781
02:15:26,840 --> 02:15:33,240
ourselves so that we don't feel 
as bad as we should about a lot 

1782
02:15:33,240 --> 02:15:38,160
of the shit we're doing. 
Totally, totally identify with a

1783
02:15:38,160 --> 02:15:41,760
lot of that. 
You know, there's very few 

1784
02:15:41,760 --> 02:15:45,040
arguments, if any, that you 
could make that there's not 

1785
02:15:45,040 --> 02:15:48,960
already a proto version of 
something else that's capable of

1786
02:15:48,960 --> 02:15:51,440
what we're doing in nature, just
not on the level that we're 

1787
02:15:51,440 --> 02:15:53,520
doing it at. 
Yeah. 

1788
02:15:53,520 --> 02:15:58,080
So to say that it, you know, 
there's a, we're A1 off, well, 

1789
02:15:58,080 --> 02:16:02,960
you'd be very hard pressed to 
find, you know, like I said, 

1790
02:16:03,080 --> 02:16:12,080
some non proto version of that. 
I like it #4 What do you think 

1791
02:16:12,080 --> 02:16:15,800
happens when we die? 
I don't know. 

1792
02:16:16,680 --> 02:16:22,560
I, I, I, to be completely 
honest, I think anything we 

1793
02:16:22,560 --> 02:16:24,680
could say about it would be 
speculation. 

1794
02:16:26,480 --> 02:16:35,600
If we want to give credence to 
the people who have had near 

1795
02:16:35,600 --> 02:16:38,600
death experiences and come back 
and tell us what happened. 

1796
02:16:39,360 --> 02:16:40,719
I've had a near death 
experience. 

1797
02:16:40,719 --> 02:16:44,320
So I'm sure you remember in 
2015, I was struck by lightning 

1798
02:16:44,320 --> 02:16:49,639
and and had a full on near death
experience. 

1799
02:16:51,120 --> 02:16:56,920
But whether or not that's what 
really is going to happen when 

1800
02:16:56,920 --> 02:17:00,719
we die, what happened to me was 
so different than any other near

1801
02:17:00,719 --> 02:17:04,200
death experience I've ever read.
So I don't think we can 

1802
02:17:04,799 --> 02:17:11,280
necessarily glean glean any 
universal information about what

1803
02:17:11,280 --> 02:17:17,400
might happen to a specific 
individual when they die, You 

1804
02:17:17,400 --> 02:17:20,799
know? 
So reincarnation, total 

1805
02:17:20,799 --> 02:17:28,000
oblivion, the life of the soul 
in another place, my own near 

1806
02:17:28,000 --> 02:17:32,040
death experience, my own 
psychedelic experiences, my own 

1807
02:17:32,400 --> 02:17:36,879
experiences in the domains of 
magic and mysticism and inducing

1808
02:17:36,879 --> 02:17:46,040
out of body experiences. 
I, I tend to suspect that there 

1809
02:17:46,040 --> 02:17:52,040
is continuity of consciousness 
beyond death, that in some ways 

1810
02:17:52,040 --> 02:17:57,680
it resembles a physical world. 
I'll be it with laws that are 

1811
02:17:57,680 --> 02:18:00,840
very different than what we're 
used to here. 

1812
02:18:01,840 --> 02:18:06,719
But to say that I believe that, 
no, I have no idea. 

1813
02:18:06,719 --> 02:18:11,520
And it would just be an, again, 
a question of, of faith. 

1814
02:18:11,520 --> 02:18:15,120
And I do have faith that there's
continuity of consciousness. 

1815
02:18:15,400 --> 02:18:21,280
I don't like to support that 
with the, the, the positivist 

1816
02:18:21,639 --> 02:18:26,559
materialist kind of logic that 
that material energy is never 

1817
02:18:27,080 --> 02:18:32,040
destroyed, it's only converted. 
I don't think that proves 

1818
02:18:32,040 --> 02:18:36,959
anything because we're not 
talking about energy in a 

1819
02:18:36,959 --> 02:18:40,400
material sense, you know, we're 
talking about what seems to be 

1820
02:18:40,400 --> 02:18:43,559
something else. 
So no, I, I don't have any proof

1821
02:18:43,559 --> 02:18:47,840
for it. 
It's simply a a faith thing, but

1822
02:18:47,959 --> 02:18:50,760
ultimately I don't think any of 
us can know that. 

1823
02:18:50,760 --> 02:18:56,639
And I think that's part of the 
real beauty of the of it. 

1824
02:18:56,639 --> 02:19:00,440
Participate, just participating 
in the mystery, surrendering to 

1825
02:19:00,440 --> 02:19:04,440
that mystery. 
There is a sacred vulnerability 

1826
02:19:04,440 --> 02:19:08,200
to that. 
That can either be the most 

1827
02:19:08,200 --> 02:19:12,559
terrifying thing that you've 
ever considered or the most 

1828
02:19:12,559 --> 02:19:17,840
liberating thing. 
It just depends on how you let 

1829
02:19:17,840 --> 02:19:20,719
it hit you. 
Interesting. 

1830
02:19:22,840 --> 02:19:28,240
Number 52 possibilities exist. 
Either we are alone in the 

1831
02:19:28,240 --> 02:19:32,160
universe or we are not. 
Both are equally terrifying. 

1832
02:19:32,280 --> 02:19:36,799
Arthur C Clarke, do you think 
there's life elsewhere in the 

1833
02:19:36,799 --> 02:19:39,559
universe, or do you think we are
alone? 

1834
02:19:42,639 --> 02:19:47,000
That's a good question. 
And do you mean do I think 

1835
02:19:47,000 --> 02:19:48,720
there's life elsewhere? 
OK. 

1836
02:19:48,720 --> 02:19:50,600
So, yeah, let me rephrase that. 
I know. 

1837
02:19:50,680 --> 02:19:54,200
Yeah. 
So do you think that there is 

1838
02:19:54,200 --> 02:19:57,720
material or physical life 
elsewhere? 

1839
02:19:58,120 --> 02:20:00,640
Not necessarily like, you know, 
we've talked about like 

1840
02:20:00,640 --> 02:20:03,760
interdimensional beings and 
possibilities of that, but do 

1841
02:20:03,760 --> 02:20:08,600
you think that there is physical
life as we know it somewhere 

1842
02:20:08,600 --> 02:20:14,160
else in the universe? 
I suspect that there there, 

1843
02:20:14,560 --> 02:20:21,120
there would be the the universe 
is just too vast for conditions 

1844
02:20:21,120 --> 02:20:25,720
similar to our Goldilocks zone 
conditions to have not emerged 

1845
02:20:25,720 --> 02:20:28,240
somewhere. 
Now, are they carbon based? 

1846
02:20:28,720 --> 02:20:31,640
Do they breathe oxygen? 
Are they bipedal? 

1847
02:20:33,400 --> 02:20:38,960
All of those things probably not
in in vastly different 

1848
02:20:38,960 --> 02:20:41,800
conditions would produce vastly 
different beings. 

1849
02:20:42,840 --> 02:20:46,080
I don't think we're alone, but I
also don't think we're alone 

1850
02:20:46,080 --> 02:20:50,920
here. 
Like we're surrounded by life. 

1851
02:20:50,920 --> 02:20:53,960
We're surrounded by more, more 
more to the point, we're 

1852
02:20:53,960 --> 02:20:57,960
surrounded by mind. 
I'm I'm of the opinion that 

1853
02:20:58,120 --> 02:21:03,960
everything that exists 
participates in mind to the 

1854
02:21:03,960 --> 02:21:07,720
degree that it's capable. 
There is a certain kind of 

1855
02:21:07,720 --> 02:21:18,560
knowing to a mineral, There's a 
knowing to a piece of mica that 

1856
02:21:18,560 --> 02:21:22,400
knows how to cube. 
You know, there's a knowing to a

1857
02:21:22,400 --> 02:21:25,320
crystal lattice that does what 
it does. 

1858
02:21:25,760 --> 02:21:29,200
And I don't think it's an 
automatic mindless process. 

1859
02:21:29,640 --> 02:21:34,320
I think mind drives it to the 
degree that it can participate 

1860
02:21:34,320 --> 02:21:41,280
in mind. 
So life probably mind, 

1861
02:21:41,280 --> 02:21:45,840
absolutely. 
I like it. 

1862
02:21:45,840 --> 02:21:49,480
Thank you for answering Mike's 
Mind melters. 

1863
02:21:50,000 --> 02:21:51,560
We've had you on a million 
times. 

1864
02:21:51,560 --> 02:21:55,280
And obviously since I came back 
up after a little bit of a 

1865
02:21:55,280 --> 02:21:58,800
hiatus, we've added this new 
segment. 

1866
02:21:58,800 --> 02:22:00,960
So I appreciate you answering 
those. 

1867
02:22:02,560 --> 02:22:06,880
And yeah, I, you know, I really 
enjoyed the the this last book, 

1868
02:22:06,880 --> 02:22:13,200
Tripping the Trail of Ghosts. 
Obviously, it's kind of, would 

1869
02:22:13,200 --> 02:22:16,760
you call it your magnum opus of 
Missawaska or do you think 

1870
02:22:16,760 --> 02:22:18,640
you're going to expound on it at
any point? 

1871
02:22:21,880 --> 02:22:25,560
That's probably the extent of 
what I'm going to do in the 

1872
02:22:25,560 --> 02:22:29,520
domain of of Native American 
research. 

1873
02:22:30,040 --> 02:22:35,800
Not because I think I've 
exhausted the field, I've just 

1874
02:22:36,040 --> 02:22:37,880
my interests are all over the 
place. 

1875
02:22:38,520 --> 02:22:45,160
And if I spend too much time on 
that, then I'm going to do it at

1876
02:22:45,160 --> 02:22:52,760
the expense of something else 
that I would really like to, you

1877
02:22:52,760 --> 02:22:56,560
know, give my perspective on. 
So that's probably it. 

1878
02:22:56,560 --> 02:23:03,360
And also I'm, I'm realizing that
a number of really important 

1879
02:23:03,360 --> 02:23:10,040
thinkers have read that book and
are carrying that research 

1880
02:23:10,040 --> 02:23:13,440
further and ways that I couldn't
particularly there's some 

1881
02:23:13,440 --> 02:23:18,360
indigenous authors, some 
academic authors, Chris, Chris 

1882
02:23:18,360 --> 02:23:24,120
Vanpool is a good example that 
have have really picked that up 

1883
02:23:24,120 --> 02:23:27,920
and are taking it in places that
I'm just not qualified to do. 

1884
02:23:28,600 --> 02:23:33,240
And I'm content that they'll get
it where it needs to go. 

1885
02:23:33,240 --> 02:23:38,200
And, and in the meantime, I've 
got to, yeah, I've got a handful

1886
02:23:38,200 --> 02:23:39,920
of other projects I'm working on
right now. 

1887
02:23:40,520 --> 02:23:43,160
By the time those are done, 
there will be another handful. 

1888
02:23:43,160 --> 02:23:46,880
I just, I just bounce around. 
I follow my notes, you know. 

1889
02:23:48,480 --> 02:23:50,800
No, I like it. 
I mean, that's kind of how I run

1890
02:23:51,520 --> 02:23:55,120
this podcast, for that matter. 
I just whatever I'm interested 

1891
02:23:55,120 --> 02:23:58,600
in or books that I've been 
reading or something's really 

1892
02:23:58,600 --> 02:24:01,520
been hitting me hard or I do a 
lot of reflecting and something 

1893
02:24:01,520 --> 02:24:03,120
comes to me. 
I have the same approach. 

1894
02:24:03,120 --> 02:24:06,320
I think that's a good approach 
to have because whatever you're 

1895
02:24:06,320 --> 02:24:09,120
passionate about at that time or
at that moment, it's going to 

1896
02:24:09,120 --> 02:24:13,400
come out in whatever creative 
endeavour it is, whether it's a 

1897
02:24:13,400 --> 02:24:16,920
book, a documentary, a podcast, 
whatever it is. 

1898
02:24:16,920 --> 02:24:20,880
So I like that approach. 
And yeah, I think you have a 

1899
02:24:21,160 --> 02:24:25,280
great take on that. 
Like, like you said, you realize

1900
02:24:25,280 --> 02:24:27,880
the limits of what you're 
capable of, so you're going to 

1901
02:24:27,880 --> 02:24:29,440
let other people carry that 
torch. 

1902
02:24:29,440 --> 02:24:32,280
And I think that that's a 
perfect way to approach that. 

1903
02:24:32,280 --> 02:24:35,640
And I think more people should 
take that approach based on some

1904
02:24:35,640 --> 02:24:39,120
of the stuff I see people 
putting on or putting out there.

1905
02:24:39,120 --> 02:24:44,200
But yeah, man, as usual, it's 
always fun having you on. 

1906
02:24:44,800 --> 02:24:47,960
If anybody has not checked out 
Alchemically Stone, you could 

1907
02:24:47,960 --> 02:24:51,920
start there, work your way to 
angels and Vermilion. 

1908
02:24:52,240 --> 02:24:55,760
And then we did a cool episode 
when you came out with the OR G 

1909
02:24:57,440 --> 02:24:59,800
theory and practice. 
And I really enjoyed that one as

1910
02:24:59,800 --> 02:25:03,080
well. 
And yeah, this new one, tripping

1911
02:25:03,080 --> 02:25:10,120
the trail of ghosts. 
It's it's if you like history, 

1912
02:25:10,280 --> 02:25:15,040
psychedelics, ritual, esoterics,
I think, you know, it's the 

1913
02:25:15,040 --> 02:25:16,800
perfect combination of all of 
that. 

1914
02:25:16,800 --> 02:25:21,760
So, and you're not in academia, 
so you're able to kind of 

1915
02:25:22,040 --> 02:25:27,240
theorize, hypothesize, speculate
a little bit more, which is 

1916
02:25:27,240 --> 02:25:30,440
always fun as well. 
And yeah, man, like I said, I 

1917
02:25:30,440 --> 02:25:33,120
really appreciate you sharing 
all your knowledge and research.

1918
02:25:33,120 --> 02:25:35,880
And obviously we'll have you 
back on in the future. 

1919
02:25:35,880 --> 02:25:41,440
And you and I text regularly and
talk and, you know, about crazy,

1920
02:25:41,560 --> 02:25:44,440
weird stuff we're into and 
experiencing and stuff like 

1921
02:25:44,440 --> 02:25:48,320
that. 
And yeah, why don't you, if you 

1922
02:25:48,320 --> 02:25:51,160
want to just drop real quick a 
little bit of a nugget on your 

1923
02:25:51,160 --> 02:25:54,920
next two projects here that we 
were talking about off air? 

1924
02:25:56,360 --> 02:26:01,280
Yeah, well, we're kind of 
stepping out of the domain of 

1925
02:26:01,720 --> 02:26:05,400
literature and working on a 
couple of documentaries. 

1926
02:26:05,400 --> 02:26:09,320
We're nearing the completion of 
the first documentary, which is 

1927
02:26:09,320 --> 02:26:13,160
following the timeline in my 
second book, Angels and 

1928
02:26:13,160 --> 02:26:16,160
Vermilion. 
And for those who aren't 

1929
02:26:16,160 --> 02:26:22,600
familiar with that book, it 
looks at the tradition of 

1930
02:26:22,600 --> 02:26:29,840
alchemy that fed into 
Freemasonry and fundamentally 

1931
02:26:29,840 --> 02:26:35,000
altered the ritual by 
introducing Acacia into the 

1932
02:26:35,000 --> 02:26:38,120
ritual. 
And the question that drove me 

1933
02:26:38,400 --> 02:26:42,560
that kind of blew the doors off 
of all of this research in that 

1934
02:26:42,560 --> 02:26:46,080
book, in my previous book was 
why is the Acacia put there? 

1935
02:26:46,080 --> 02:26:49,200
Because when when I went through
the Master Mason degree and 1st 

1936
02:26:49,200 --> 02:26:54,040
encountered that Acacia, I had 
just finished extracting my 

1937
02:26:54,040 --> 02:26:57,040
first batch of N and DMT from 
from Acacia. 

1938
02:26:58,280 --> 02:27:02,760
And so I thought, well, that's 
either a really interesting 

1939
02:27:02,760 --> 02:27:08,480
synchronicity or there's 
something more at work with this

1940
02:27:08,480 --> 02:27:12,360
bird of Acacia. 
So I really dove in, read every 

1941
02:27:12,360 --> 02:27:15,840
version of the ritual I could 
find, and then finally found the

1942
02:27:15,840 --> 02:27:21,200
evidence that proved that they 
were consuming the Acacia 

1943
02:27:21,200 --> 02:27:24,280
specifically for its visionary 
qualities. 

1944
02:27:25,680 --> 02:27:31,400
And the the documentary follows 
that tradition from from Egypt 

1945
02:27:31,880 --> 02:27:38,720
on into Prague with John D and 
Edward Kelly into London with 

1946
02:27:38,720 --> 02:27:45,320
the Royal Society, which is the 
the first group that was looking

1947
02:27:45,320 --> 02:27:47,720
at this problem. 
After Elias Asheville had 

1948
02:27:47,720 --> 02:27:50,720
inherited these papers. 
I was trying to make his 

1949
02:27:50,720 --> 02:27:55,000
Enochian magic system work but 
couldn't and decided that it was

1950
02:27:55,000 --> 02:27:58,600
because he didn't have this red 
powder Edward Kelly had. 

1951
02:27:59,040 --> 02:28:02,480
So they go on this wild goose 
chase looking for a drug that 

1952
02:28:02,480 --> 02:28:06,400
would fit that bill, what they 
decide on as Acacia. 

1953
02:28:07,320 --> 02:28:13,400
And that is what leads the 
research assistant to Sir Isaac 

1954
02:28:13,400 --> 02:28:17,280
Newton, a man named John 
Theophilus de Sacuglieri, after 

1955
02:28:17,280 --> 02:28:19,880
he was installed as the third 
grandmaster, the premier grand 

1956
02:28:19,880 --> 02:28:24,160
legend London to put the Acacia 
in Masonic ritual. 

1957
02:28:25,680 --> 02:28:28,720
So, yeah, we, we in that 
documentary, we, we've gone to 

1958
02:28:28,720 --> 02:28:32,760
all the places where this 
happened, taken experts in those

1959
02:28:32,760 --> 02:28:37,200
particular areas of research 
with us, conducted interviews 

1960
02:28:37,200 --> 02:28:39,800
with them telling the story 
where it happened. 

1961
02:28:40,320 --> 02:28:44,360
And the, the director of the 
films is my dear friend Alec 

1962
02:28:44,360 --> 02:28:50,120
Hawkins, who is an award-winning
filmmaker from Columbus, Ms. But

1963
02:28:50,120 --> 02:28:53,680
he doesn't just make films. 
It's not just your typical 

1964
02:28:53,680 --> 02:28:57,920
documentary. 
He is a cinematographer. 

1965
02:28:57,920 --> 02:29:01,720
You know, he, it's, it's an art 
film that documents. 

1966
02:29:01,720 --> 02:29:06,920
So we're excited about that. 
It should be done by the end of 

1967
02:29:06,920 --> 02:29:12,360
this year, end of December, and 
then we'll be figuring out who's

1968
02:29:12,360 --> 02:29:17,240
going to carry it for us. 
Yeah, we've had Alec on the show

1969
02:29:17,240 --> 02:29:20,360
too before. 
That's right, you have. 

1970
02:29:20,800 --> 02:29:25,920
We were talking about like 
Charles Manson, MK Ultra, all 

1971
02:29:25,920 --> 02:29:28,120
that kind of jazz when he was 
on. 

1972
02:29:29,040 --> 02:29:31,720
Yeah, he he knows his Manson 
more for sure. 

1973
02:29:34,480 --> 02:29:40,120
And he's also working with me on
the next documentary that right 

1974
02:29:40,120 --> 02:29:44,560
now we're in the the writing 
phases. 

1975
02:29:44,560 --> 02:29:47,960
Not not not writing a script, 
but writing kind of an outline, 

1976
02:29:47,960 --> 02:29:49,960
getting all the information in 
one place. 

1977
02:29:51,240 --> 02:29:56,080
And oddly enough, it sounds like
it's completely out of left 

1978
02:29:56,080 --> 02:29:58,600
field. 
I've met given my, my previous 

1979
02:29:58,600 --> 02:30:08,240
research, but we're looking at 
the the various examples of, of 

1980
02:30:08,280 --> 02:30:15,240
alien UFO sightings, abductions,
contact incidents that happened 

1981
02:30:15,240 --> 02:30:20,320
in Mississippi and most people 
don't think about, unless you're

1982
02:30:20,320 --> 02:30:22,160
thinking about the Pascagoula 
incident. 

1983
02:30:22,480 --> 02:30:26,400
Most people don't think about 
this stuff in Mississippi, but 

1984
02:30:26,480 --> 02:30:30,840
it is very prevalent. 
And you know, there's a lot of 

1985
02:30:30,840 --> 02:30:35,800
consensus today about how 
whatever these things are like 

1986
02:30:35,800 --> 02:30:39,960
to hover about nuclear 
facilities and and places where 

1987
02:30:39,960 --> 02:30:41,640
nuclear bombs have been 
detonated. 

1988
02:30:42,240 --> 02:30:48,640
And a little known fact is that 
in Mississippi in 1964, two 

1989
02:30:48,640 --> 02:30:51,320
nuclear bombs were detonated in 
Lamar County. 

1990
02:30:52,240 --> 02:30:55,120
And it's after that that these 
sightings really amped up. 

1991
02:30:55,560 --> 02:31:00,400
But even prior to that, we see 
them in the most significant. 

1992
02:31:00,400 --> 02:31:07,320
And, and really what made us say
we need to document this somehow

1993
02:31:08,840 --> 02:31:12,000
was an event known as the 
Kilgore Hills Moon Man. 

1994
02:31:12,600 --> 02:31:16,880
And this was in in a newspaper 
in 1893. 

1995
02:31:18,040 --> 02:31:21,800
This man, Kilgore Hills is now 
there's nothing there. 

1996
02:31:21,800 --> 02:31:23,920
It used to be a little town with
a saloon. 

1997
02:31:24,800 --> 02:31:28,520
But this man, Gus Goody I think 
was his name. 

1998
02:31:28,920 --> 02:31:35,680
He owned the saloon and he sees 
down in a a ravine, a light 

1999
02:31:35,680 --> 02:31:40,240
coming out of this ravine and he
goes down to investigate it and 

2000
02:31:40,240 --> 02:31:44,520
sees a cylindrical ship down 
there. 

2001
02:31:44,520 --> 02:31:52,120
And surrounding it are a number 
of beings that are like 3 feet 

2002
02:31:52,120 --> 02:31:56,480
tall, 3 to 5 feet tall, have 
large heads, Gray skin and 

2003
02:31:56,480 --> 02:32:01,720
enormous cat like eyes. 
And as the story goes, and this 

2004
02:32:01,720 --> 02:32:04,320
is treated as folklore in 
Mississippi, but I'll tell you 

2005
02:32:04,320 --> 02:32:10,280
why I don't think that's the 
case, is that somebody behind 

2006
02:32:10,280 --> 02:32:14,680
Goody also saw them and at his 
shotgun and shot one of them. 

2007
02:32:15,360 --> 02:32:19,880
The rest of them scramble into 
the cylinder ship, take off, and

2008
02:32:19,880 --> 02:32:24,080
the other one lays there dead. 
And if you're familiar at all 

2009
02:32:24,080 --> 02:32:29,640
with the the UFO flaps from the 
late 19th century, most of them 

2010
02:32:29,640 --> 02:32:32,560
were these cylinder ships. 
Not UFOs, not discs. 

2011
02:32:32,560 --> 02:32:36,800
The airship phenomenon, Yeah. 
Yeah, so it fits. 

2012
02:32:36,800 --> 02:32:40,760
It fits with that, even though 
it's never like even in Jacques 

2013
02:32:40,760 --> 02:32:44,720
Valet's passport to Magonia 
where he gives the the 

2014
02:32:44,920 --> 02:32:50,400
chronology of all of the known 
abductions or sightings, he 

2015
02:32:50,400 --> 02:32:53,720
skips right over 1893, never 
mentions this incident 

2016
02:32:53,720 --> 02:32:57,440
Mississippi, which I find 
strange and I'll tell you why. 

2017
02:32:57,440 --> 02:33:01,240
And it's also this the reason 
why I have my doubts about this 

2018
02:33:01,240 --> 02:33:07,920
just being folklore. 
But the the being they took and 

2019
02:33:07,920 --> 02:33:13,960
placed it on a cot on the porch 
of Goodies Saloon and people 

2020
02:33:13,960 --> 02:33:17,560
would come by and look at it. 
Now this, this photographer, I 

2021
02:33:18,280 --> 02:33:22,280
think he worked for a newspaper 
in Houston, Mississippi, gets 

2022
02:33:22,280 --> 02:33:25,240
wind of this, travels down with 
his camera and takes pictures 

2023
02:33:25,840 --> 02:33:27,960
and sells the pictures for a 
dollar. 

2024
02:33:27,960 --> 02:33:31,440
Or he'll take your picture 
standing next to it for $5.00. 

2025
02:33:32,040 --> 02:33:36,400
But this only went on for a day 
because by Day 2, the smell was 

2026
02:33:36,400 --> 02:33:41,400
so overwhelming that Goody's 
wife was throwing a fish. 

2027
02:33:41,400 --> 02:33:42,680
He said, you got to get this 
thing out of here. 

2028
02:33:42,680 --> 02:33:45,160
This is embarrassing. 
Nobody's coming in the saloon, 

2029
02:33:45,760 --> 02:33:48,280
you know. 
So he and the guy who pulled the

2030
02:33:48,280 --> 02:33:51,560
trigger on the thing, they 
decide they're going to go bury 

2031
02:33:51,560 --> 02:33:53,720
it in the Kilgore Hills 
Cemetery. 

2032
02:33:55,120 --> 02:33:58,000
But once they get in there, they
realize, well, this, this isn't 

2033
02:33:58,000 --> 02:34:00,280
a white man. 
We're in a white man's cemetery.

2034
02:34:00,280 --> 02:34:02,680
This clearly isn't a man, nor is
he white. 

2035
02:34:03,120 --> 02:34:06,000
And so they do, they agree, OK, 
we'll carry it over to the 

2036
02:34:06,000 --> 02:34:08,680
African American cemetery and 
we'll bury it there. 

2037
02:34:09,360 --> 02:34:12,960
And the African American folks 
say you're not burying that 

2038
02:34:12,960 --> 02:34:15,040
here. 
He's not white. 

2039
02:34:15,280 --> 02:34:18,160
He's not a man. 
Well, he's not African American 

2040
02:34:18,200 --> 02:34:19,480
either. 
You can't put him in our 

2041
02:34:19,480 --> 02:34:21,920
cemetery. 
So they carry him back to the 

2042
02:34:21,920 --> 02:34:26,080
white cemetery and decide to 
build it outside the fence line 

2043
02:34:26,080 --> 02:34:29,840
on a on a hill. 
Like there's a trench on each 

2044
02:34:29,840 --> 02:34:31,360
side. 
And they put him on this Crest 

2045
02:34:31,360 --> 02:34:37,000
of this hill and covered it with
sandstone and put an oak marker 

2046
02:34:37,000 --> 02:34:40,840
there that said here lies the 
moon man because they believe 

2047
02:34:40,840 --> 02:34:45,320
they'd come from the moon. 
And so we drove out there to 

2048
02:34:45,320 --> 02:34:47,520
check this place out. 
You know, when we got the first 

2049
02:34:47,520 --> 02:34:51,560
footage of it to see if there 
even was a Crest, a Ridge 

2050
02:34:51,560 --> 02:34:54,040
outside the fence. 
And I walked the entire 

2051
02:34:54,040 --> 02:34:58,840
perimeter and there was 1 Crest 
directly behind it. 

2052
02:34:59,080 --> 02:35:01,840
Now what's interesting is it's 
got this barbed wire fence. 

2053
02:35:02,200 --> 02:35:04,560
The whole barbed wire fence is 
intact until you get to where 

2054
02:35:04,560 --> 02:35:07,720
that Crest is and it's 
permanently pulled back and 

2055
02:35:07,720 --> 02:35:09,720
folded up so people can go 
through there. 

2056
02:35:10,320 --> 02:35:15,640
And in in some of the accounts, 
people talk about how they still

2057
02:35:15,640 --> 02:35:18,920
visit the grave site of this 
moon man and take their 

2058
02:35:18,920 --> 02:35:23,800
grandkids to see it. 
And that may be what, why it's 

2059
02:35:23,800 --> 02:35:27,000
pulled apart there, that people 
are still going in this place, 

2060
02:35:27,000 --> 02:35:31,240
which is fascinating to me. 
But the reason I, I have my 

2061
02:35:31,240 --> 02:35:35,840
suspicions about it not being 
folklore is because the common 

2062
02:35:36,120 --> 02:35:41,120
consensus, consensus among 
ufologists is that the, the 

2063
02:35:41,120 --> 02:35:44,800
idea, the picture of the, the 
traditional grey alien that we 

2064
02:35:44,800 --> 02:35:50,520
know today came about with the 
success of Whitley Strivers 

2065
02:35:50,520 --> 02:35:54,160
Communion, the, the painting he 
had put on the cover. 

2066
02:35:56,520 --> 02:36:01,320
But that's not really true 
because even if we go back to 

2067
02:36:01,320 --> 02:36:04,880
the Barney Hill, Barney and 
Betty Hill incident, they drew 

2068
02:36:04,880 --> 02:36:07,240
some pictures and made 
sculptures of what they saw. 

2069
02:36:07,240 --> 02:36:11,440
And it was a these three to five
feet tall beings with Gray skin 

2070
02:36:11,680 --> 02:36:17,720
that had large cat like eyes. 
And when you look at the 

2071
02:36:17,720 --> 02:36:21,640
description in the newspaper 
from what happened in 1893 in 

2072
02:36:21,640 --> 02:36:26,360
Mississippi, they're described 
as skinny, 3 to 5 feet tall, 

2073
02:36:26,360 --> 02:36:29,960
large heads with big cat like 
eyes. 

2074
02:36:30,400 --> 02:36:39,600
So if it is folklore, that means
that Mississippi folklore is the

2075
02:36:39,600 --> 02:36:45,120
ultimate source for the image of
the Gray alien as we know it. 

2076
02:36:45,560 --> 02:36:48,200
But the problem is Betty and 
Barney Hill, they're in New 

2077
02:36:48,200 --> 02:36:50,760
Hampshire. 
It's highly doubtful that they 

2078
02:36:50,760 --> 02:36:54,200
would have seen a newspaper 
clipping from a town in 

2079
02:36:54,200 --> 02:36:58,120
Mississippi that basically 
consisted of a saloon, you know,

2080
02:37:00,040 --> 02:37:03,840
and it's I also find it doubtful
that Whitley Schreiber would 

2081
02:37:03,840 --> 02:37:07,680
have encountered it. 
So it, it either means that a 

2082
02:37:07,680 --> 02:37:12,360
piece of unknown folklore 
dictated the way we perceived 

2083
02:37:12,360 --> 02:37:19,000
aliens for the next 100 years, 
you know, or there's something 

2084
02:37:19,600 --> 02:37:22,640
to it worth discussing. 
And that that was really what 

2085
02:37:22,640 --> 02:37:28,080
made us say, you know what, we 
should just really look at the 

2086
02:37:28,080 --> 02:37:32,440
trajectory of these accounts and
Mississippi that started with 

2087
02:37:32,440 --> 02:37:37,080
this in 1893 and persist all the
way up to this year where an 

2088
02:37:37,080 --> 02:37:39,400
event happened in Columbus where
Alec lives. 

2089
02:37:40,600 --> 02:37:44,400
So that's what's that's what's 
next on the docket once we get 

2090
02:37:44,400 --> 02:37:49,640
the the the DMT Acacia 
documentary finally out of our 

2091
02:37:49,640 --> 02:37:52,600
hands. 
Nice. 

2092
02:37:52,640 --> 02:37:55,720
Yeah, I know. 
I'm, I'm excited to see what 

2093
02:37:55,720 --> 02:37:58,560
comes of it. 
And I know you've been working 

2094
02:37:58,560 --> 02:38:01,320
on this first documentary for a 
while, so I'm looking forward to

2095
02:38:01,320 --> 02:38:05,200
that one as well. 
And yeah, you've been, you were 

2096
02:38:05,200 --> 02:38:07,360
in our documentary too, as 
within. 

2097
02:38:07,360 --> 02:38:11,720
So without from UFOs to DMT, you
describe your own personal 

2098
02:38:11,720 --> 02:38:15,760
encounter that you had with your
wife in Mississippi. 

2099
02:38:15,760 --> 02:38:19,800
And I appreciate you sharing 
your story on that as well. 

2100
02:38:20,200 --> 02:38:25,440
And yeah, man, I mean, I think 
my ass is asleep right now. 

2101
02:38:26,160 --> 02:38:28,560
So we're going to have to 
probably do like a Part 2, but 

2102
02:38:28,560 --> 02:38:32,640
we should definitely do 1, 
unlike the UFO stuff. 

2103
02:38:32,640 --> 02:38:35,640
And I think you've got a lot of 
interesting stuff you've 

2104
02:38:35,640 --> 02:38:39,840
uncovered. 
And obviously I had ingrained 

2105
02:38:39,840 --> 02:38:43,200
myself into that world for a 
bit. 

2106
02:38:44,120 --> 02:38:47,360
And you know, you, I think you 
can only keep keep the one foot 

2107
02:38:47,360 --> 02:38:49,960
in that world for a bit, you 
know, before it gets a little 

2108
02:38:49,960 --> 02:38:54,080
chaotic and you got to. 
If you're if you're interacting 

2109
02:38:54,080 --> 02:39:02,360
with the people that occupy that
domain, it gets a little 

2110
02:39:02,360 --> 02:39:06,240
nauseating real quick. 
You I find it best to just keep 

2111
02:39:06,240 --> 02:39:09,480
to myself with this research. 
Y'all do what you're going to 

2112
02:39:09,480 --> 02:39:17,480
do, but I think 90% of them are 
completely nuts, egomaniacal, 

2113
02:39:17,920 --> 02:39:25,520
and are just ruining the entire 
area of research to be. 

2114
02:39:26,160 --> 02:39:31,720
Well, I think with, with the 
social media and cliques and 

2115
02:39:32,160 --> 02:39:35,520
saying salacious shit to get 
more attention, I think has 

2116
02:39:35,520 --> 02:39:40,000
definitely brought a lot of kind
of what you're talking about. 

2117
02:39:40,000 --> 02:39:43,760
I have obviously the, you know, 
I think when I started doing 

2118
02:39:43,760 --> 02:39:47,640
mind escape is really when I 
started ingraining myself into 

2119
02:39:47,640 --> 02:39:52,720
all these fringe communities. 
And yeah, the UFO thing, I've 

2120
02:39:52,720 --> 02:39:57,960
met a lot of cool people, you 
know, but there is also kind of 

2121
02:39:57,960 --> 02:40:00,160
what you mentioned too. 
So, you know, you just kind of 

2122
02:40:00,160 --> 02:40:05,160
have to take it for what it is 
and just remind yourself to like

2123
02:40:05,160 --> 02:40:08,840
when you're online, like. 
The same thing applies to 

2124
02:40:08,840 --> 02:40:10,760
everything. 
So if somebody's trying to get 

2125
02:40:10,760 --> 02:40:13,600
clicks on a political topic, of 
course they're going to say 

2126
02:40:13,600 --> 02:40:15,640
crazy shit. 
If they're trying to get clicks 

2127
02:40:15,640 --> 02:40:19,560
on metaphysical fringe topics, 
of course they're going to say 

2128
02:40:19,560 --> 02:40:21,160
crazy shit. 
So you just kind of have to keep

2129
02:40:21,160 --> 02:40:25,960
that in mind when engaging with 
these communities because there 

2130
02:40:25,960 --> 02:40:31,280
is a lot of that. 
And usually, you know, there are

2131
02:40:31,280 --> 02:40:34,840
your cool people, you know, like
I met you through doing this. 

2132
02:40:34,840 --> 02:40:36,960
I met, you know, so some of the 
people that were in their 

2133
02:40:36,960 --> 02:40:39,320
documentary through doing that, 
you know, like, so it's just 

2134
02:40:39,320 --> 02:40:44,320
like there is that, but there's 
also good cool, knowledgeable 

2135
02:40:44,320 --> 02:40:46,160
people too. 
I guess you just kind of have to

2136
02:40:46,160 --> 02:40:49,000
use your judgement on what's 
going on there, but. 

2137
02:40:49,520 --> 02:40:52,480
Yeah, yeah, I I agree. 
They're few and far between. 

2138
02:40:53,800 --> 02:40:54,800
I have. 
You're right. 

2139
02:40:54,800 --> 02:41:01,800
I have met some really valuable 
people since I started really 

2140
02:41:01,800 --> 02:41:12,160
looking into this territory, but
Even so, I'm careful to let them

2141
02:41:12,160 --> 02:41:15,160
do their research and I do mine,
you know? 

2142
02:41:16,440 --> 02:41:20,080
Well, of course, yeah. 
I mean, I think everybody should

2143
02:41:20,080 --> 02:41:23,800
always do their own research and
just not take word of mouth from

2144
02:41:24,560 --> 02:41:26,560
somebody, you know, especially. 
With this topic. 

2145
02:41:26,560 --> 02:41:31,280
Yeah. 
And and look, if you watch our 

2146
02:41:31,280 --> 02:41:35,640
documentary as within so without
that's, I had a couple of 

2147
02:41:35,640 --> 02:41:39,560
hypotheses going in. 
One that it takes a human mind 

2148
02:41:39,880 --> 02:41:43,400
to interact with this 
phenomenon, whatever it is, at 

2149
02:41:43,400 --> 02:41:48,640
very least a mind virus, at most
something otherworldly that 

2150
02:41:48,640 --> 02:41:50,520
we're connected to that we don't
know about. 

2151
02:41:52,240 --> 02:42:00,120
And then the other hypothesis is
it could just be genetics or 

2152
02:42:03,080 --> 02:42:07,800
part of our evolutionary or, you
know, evolving our consciousness

2153
02:42:07,800 --> 02:42:11,400
in the sense that maybe if you 
look at like the pantheon of 

2154
02:42:11,400 --> 02:42:16,480
gods from ancient times or now, 
this might, you know, as a, a 

2155
02:42:16,760 --> 02:42:22,080
young modern myth style thing. 
Like maybe this is what pushes 

2156
02:42:22,080 --> 02:42:26,360
humanity forward in terms of 
like achieving the next goal or 

2157
02:42:26,360 --> 02:42:29,680
technology or whatever. 
In the sense that like we're 

2158
02:42:29,680 --> 02:42:33,040
subconsciously dangling this 
carrot in front of ourselves, 

2159
02:42:33,040 --> 02:42:34,800
but it's not, there's nothing 
really there. 

2160
02:42:35,200 --> 02:42:41,520
And we're truly these aliens, if
you will, by we're creating this

2161
02:42:41,520 --> 02:42:45,640
myth that we're chasing that. 
And and then we'll invent a new 

2162
02:42:45,640 --> 02:42:49,800
myth when that, you know, kind 
of unfolds or whatever, you 

2163
02:42:49,800 --> 02:42:54,000
know, now we can kind of see, 
you know, there's nobody that I 

2164
02:42:54,000 --> 02:42:59,000
mean, I'm sure there are, but 
nobody's practicing in a large 

2165
02:42:59,000 --> 02:43:03,520
scale ancient Greek religion 
based on the pantheon of gods. 

2166
02:43:03,520 --> 02:43:07,680
And nobody's, you know, you 
could call it paganism or 

2167
02:43:07,680 --> 02:43:11,160
whatever, but in, in terms of 
like, actually is like a 

2168
02:43:11,160 --> 02:43:14,080
movement, those things kind of 
go wayside when we, you know, 

2169
02:43:14,080 --> 02:43:18,000
Thales comes along. 
Oh no, these, there's a natural 

2170
02:43:18,160 --> 02:43:22,200
explanation for this phenomenon.
And I'm going to buy up all 

2171
02:43:22,200 --> 02:43:25,920
these olive presses and I'm 
going to make a ton of money 

2172
02:43:25,920 --> 02:43:28,160
because everybody thinks the 
gods are what's making it rain. 

2173
02:43:28,160 --> 02:43:29,240
And there's going to be more 
hubs. 

2174
02:43:29,240 --> 02:43:31,760
But I know that it's just a 
rainy season, you know, like 

2175
02:43:31,760 --> 02:43:37,080
that kind of a thing. 
So I, I, you know, those were my

2176
02:43:37,080 --> 02:43:43,320
2 hypothesises going into making
our documentary, but there is 

2177
02:43:43,320 --> 02:43:47,360
something weird there and I've 
never gotten to what that 

2178
02:43:47,360 --> 02:43:50,160
actually is. 
And I kind of go back and forth 

2179
02:43:50,160 --> 02:43:52,800
a lot about it. 
But I'm interested to see your 

2180
02:43:52,800 --> 02:43:56,440
take because, you know, I think 
you have a great perspective on 

2181
02:43:56,440 --> 02:44:00,520
these things. 
And you know, as you mentioned, 

2182
02:44:00,520 --> 02:44:02,640
you're not just, you're actually
interested in it. 

2183
02:44:02,640 --> 02:44:05,280
You're not just doing it to do 
it, which some people do. 

2184
02:44:06,560 --> 02:44:08,880
So yeah man, super looking 
forward to that. 

2185
02:44:08,880 --> 02:44:12,080
Let's do a full work up an 
episode on it. 

2186
02:44:12,080 --> 02:44:15,520
We'll try and schedule that. 
Like I said, if I I got to get 

2187
02:44:15,520 --> 02:44:19,400
in butt shape again after my 
hiatus, I've come back. 

2188
02:44:19,400 --> 02:44:23,320
I realized like 2 1/2 hours is 
like the most I can sit without 

2189
02:44:23,320 --> 02:44:25,640
my ass falling asleep. 
But I. 

2190
02:44:26,280 --> 02:44:29,880
Get it? 
Yeah man, I really appreciate 

2191
02:44:29,880 --> 02:44:31,920
it. 
Click the link down below. 

2192
02:44:31,960 --> 02:44:36,840
I'll have the link for all of P 
DS books next to the mushroom 

2193
02:44:37,160 --> 02:44:41,440
icon at the bottom. 
Yeah, check out Alchemically 

2194
02:44:41,440 --> 02:44:46,000
stone, check out Angels and 
Vermilion, check out Theergy and

2195
02:44:46,000 --> 02:44:49,080
check out his newest one, 
Tripping the Trail of ghosts. 

2196
02:44:49,120 --> 02:44:51,800
And of course, look out for 
these two new documentaries that

2197
02:44:51,800 --> 02:44:54,000
are going to come out sometime 
in the next couple years. 

2198
02:44:54,880 --> 02:44:57,240
One, the first one's probably 
going to be out sooner than 

2199
02:44:57,240 --> 02:45:00,600
later, but yeah, man, I really 
appreciate you coming on. 

2200
02:45:00,600 --> 02:45:04,680
And I love our interactions and 
even sometimes just texting us, 

2201
02:45:04,800 --> 02:45:08,520
texting each other randomly, 
interesting stuff. 

2202
02:45:08,520 --> 02:45:12,400
I love that. 
So yeah, man, I appreciate it. 

2203
02:45:12,400 --> 02:45:15,480
And thank you for sharing all of
your knowledge and your efforts.

2204
02:45:16,440 --> 02:45:18,160
My pleasure. 
Thanks for having me. 

2205
02:45:18,200 --> 02:45:21,080
It's it's good to see you. 
Good to see you back on. 

2206
02:45:21,440 --> 02:45:24,720
Good to see you too, man, and 
you're welcome back on anytime, 

2207
02:45:25,680 --> 02:45:28,560
but we are going to end this the
same way we end all of our 

2208
02:45:28,560 --> 02:45:31,680
episodes, which is we love 
everybody. 

2209
02:45:31,800 --> 02:45:34,240
Stay safe out there and we'll 
catch you next time. 

2210
02:45:35,040 --> 02:45:39,040
Peace. 
If you would like to support 

2211
02:45:39,040 --> 02:45:41,880
Mind Escape, there's many ways 
you can do it, but the best way 

2212
02:45:41,880 --> 02:45:44,280
to do it is to click the link 
tree link down below. 

2213
02:45:44,520 --> 02:45:50,720
I have everything from merch to 
our Patreon page, our Patreon by

2214
02:45:50,720 --> 02:45:55,120
the way, I archived a lot of the
Mind Escape One Point O episodes

2215
02:45:55,120 --> 02:45:57,760
on there. 
There is still some available on

2216
02:45:57,760 --> 02:46:02,160
our YouTube channel and our 
Spotify and Apple podcast. 

2217
02:46:02,160 --> 02:46:04,880
However, like I said, if you're 
looking for a specific older 

2218
02:46:04,880 --> 02:46:08,360
episode, it might be on our 
Patreon which has been archived 

2219
02:46:08,360 --> 02:46:12,000
and it's $2.00 a month and 
there's also exclusive content 

2220
02:46:12,000 --> 02:46:15,640
on there as well that was never 
released to any other platform, 

2221
02:46:15,640 --> 02:46:17,720
so please go check that out. 
You can also check out our 

2222
02:46:17,720 --> 02:46:20,760
documentary that Maurice and I 
made a few years ago called As 

2223
02:46:20,760 --> 02:46:25,520
Within So without from UFOs to 
DMT that is available on there 

2224
02:46:25,520 --> 02:46:27,680
as well. 
There's also a director's cut 

2225
02:46:27,680 --> 02:46:31,600
video versions of Mind Escape. 
New telos are available on 

2226
02:46:31,600 --> 02:46:35,680
YouTube and Spotify, and it's 
also available on all audio 

2227
02:46:35,680 --> 02:46:38,800
platforms like Apple and 
whatever other audio platform 

2228
02:46:38,800 --> 02:46:40,280
you use to listen to your 
podcast. 

2229
02:46:40,640 --> 02:46:44,360
O please subscribe, like and 
follow us and we'd also 

2230
02:46:44,360 --> 02:46:46,040
appreciate any nice review.