Welcome back to Mike and Maurice's might Escape.
Let us help you escape your mind.
All right, folks. Welcome back to Mike and
Maurice's mind, Escape. We have episode number 275
tonight. This is going to be the first
part of an ongoing series that we're going to do.
We are going to call it psychedelic, gnosis with
encyclopédie Newman, is it encyclopedia encyclopedia
something like that? With our buddy PD Newman and
also Joan? Co-host, Leah's back.
You can check out PD stuff down below.
At the bottom, I have all of his links to his books, his Facebook
group, and all that kind of wonderful stuff.
He has a new book coming out called theurgy in practice.
Correct, drg theory and practice theory, theurgy theory and
practice. It's a real tongue twister, and
that'll be out through inner Traditions.
Shout out to Inner traditions, we love inner traditions.
And yeah, it's going to be looking forward to that.
When, I know, he's been reading up on it, I see him reading on
all the ancient, Greek, stuff, and Rome and stuff.
And I think you're probably going to have a real good real
good take. So I look forward to that, check
out Leah stuff as well. I have her website down below.
She does a YouTube channel called The Invisible night
school where they talk about the UFO phenomenon as well as other
things. And she's got a great sub stack,
check that out and You know, we're mind Escape.
So we've got tons of other stuff going on, but you can check out
all of our links down below. I'm not going to go too deep
into it. We do have a patreon episode
that we released with PD. He was actually on only two
episodes ago. Our last episode we did with dr.
Andrew Gallimore. Great.
Episode and DMT and DMT entities and the mechanisms behind.
How these things work? What we know.
But yeah, so let's get to it again.
If you want to support any one of the things that, We do, you
can click on the link down below at the end of the episode, I
will be playing the trailer to our documentary that gets
released March 10th through 12th.
The Roswell, UFO Expo, shout out to Toby, shout out to Shane.
Shout out to Maurice, who's diligently editing this
documentary for us right now. So, again, all the links are
down below. We love everybody, let's get
this thing rocking. So, I asked you what you wanted
to talk about for the first episode or first installment of
this and use Said Native American psychedelic use for
entheogens. Maybe New World antigen
something along those lines. What what has you most
fascinated about that aspect of psychedelics?
Or at least right now? What you're studying?
Well, primarily, when most people think about Native
American entheogen use, they immediately go to peyote, the
probably the most visual excuse me, visible example, but and I
had no idea outside of peyote and tobacco that there were
other examples. But once I started digging in,
it was actually at in Yorkshire, I was talking about my theurgy
book and I was talking about the fact that in there, the theory
of theology, there are these two portals in the sky one through
which you incarnate and one through its you x-coordinate.
And Graham Hancock and Dennis McKenna weren't in the
conversation, but they overheard me and both of them turned
around at the same time. And they said, oh are you
talking about the path of Souls and I was sad.
I don't know what that is. And they told me to check out
Greg's book Greg, Littles book path of Souls and I was
absolutely floored by the similarities.
The fact that they virtually every step in this process.
Is represented in this Native American model, but the only
difference was that in this, theurgy model there are very
clear examples of entheogen, use to induce these death States
while you're alive at the, the What's called the right of
elevation, the major Central ritual of theurgy is a death
ritual where you died and your resurrected afterwards and
during that death, you travel through this portal and go get
on the Milky Way. Way.
And that's exactly what we were seeing in this Native American
model. So I thought, well, if it's not
just a death journey in Greece, if it's an initiatory process
meant to put somebody through death, nominally in a ritual
setting is that the case with the Native American model?
Are they using this after death model for some?
Some kind of a ritual eyes. Setting to put a Person through
a ceremony. And once I started digging at,
that's absolutely the case. And the entheogens that they
were using that they were mastering Absolutely blew my
mind because it's it includes datura.
It includes morning, glory seeds, which is a erga teen
mimics LSD, but not quite as potent, similar to LSD.
They were using Nicotiana, Rustica obviously, a very strong
tobacco, but the most surprising and this isn't in the
literature. You won't find anybody saying
they were using these. These other plants, but I found
evidence that they were using and Ayahuasca analog for those
of you who aren't familiar with Ayahuasca, it's a South American
tea made with plants containing both DMT and some Form of a
monoamine, oxidase inhibitor, like harming or are Moline to
induce something. Very similar to mushrooms.
Mushrooms, psilocybin is for phosphorus lock CNN DMT.
So it's Nature's orally active form of DMT.
That doesn't necessitate that MAOI addition but they're using
this MAOI addition. So, When I started looking at
the Native American usage, I'm trying.
I'm trying to find all the plants they're using, so I ended
up contacting the local University here and I lied to
them. I told them I was a doctor of
archaeology and that I was traveling through and that I
wanted to use their Professor Newman.
I presume I want this. You can add a monocle onto.
Yeah. Yeah.
But I just said, you know, I'm traveling through, I'd love to
stop and take a look mainly because of this mound called Owl
Creek Mound, that is in, the Mounds are positioned in the
exact places as the, what they call the Chiefs hand, what we
recognize as Orion, but they, they're in the position of Orion
and the lady who had excavated it.
She's passed away now, but I found out that she was with
this. School.
So I'm trying to find her papers specifically.
But once I got to digging in there, I found several
unpublished feces doctoral Theses that discussed Botanical,
assemblages that were recovered from these sites.
So they, they gave a complete list of all of these different
plants they were using now, they're obviously separated into
categories, like food. Stuffs, you know, things for
textiles for building. But then there's this this x
category of drugs and that includes these other note.
Since I've started digging into this, I found published examples
that I can actually cite at least five or six different
reports on Botanical assemblages, all of them have
the same plants in them. The main thing we We see is the
nicotiana Rustica. Then we see the the Morning
Glory the datura, something called ilex vomitoria, which is
North America's only native source of caffeine.
It's a lot like yerba mate. It's, I think it's in the same
family as yerba mate. But what surprised me was report
after report after report included, glad I did see a tree
acanthus and passiflora incarnata.
And this is what I call my missus swastika hypothesis.
It's a major part of the book I'm writing right now.
The inner Traditions is also picked up but the book isn't
finished. So I don't know when it will be
published, but I remember as soon as I saw the good did see a
tree, can't those I thought Where do where do I know this
from? Why do I know that name and
that? And it dawned on me a couple of
days later it's in Trout's book tryouts, he wrote a book called
some simple tryptamines, where he bioassay did a number of
different plants that were in The Acacia and Mimosa family to
try and determine if they were psychoactive like Mimosa
hostilities or like like Acacia melodica.
And this plan in particular, Before it was classified as
Glenn did see, a tree can't, those was called, Acacia
Americana and actually the tree acanthosis that I can is the
same root as Acacia. Acacia means thorned and these
things are covered in gnarly Thorns but That's where it's and
it's the only source. I think there's there are no
academic sources that talk about the DMT content of this tree,
only trowel. So shout out to Trout for being
the the Trailblazer and in this regard.
But and every report there's glad that see a tree account
those and right next to it is passiflora incarnata passion
flower, which is not every passion flower has monoamine,
oxidase Inhibitors in it but The ones that grow here, the in
Karnataka species. Do they have harming in them?
And we put it to the test. We took a small amount first and
definitely notice something. So then we upped the dose we
eventually found out that roughly 10 grams of glue.
Did see a tree account those with 25 grams of the passiflora
incarnata is enough to elicit an experience that I can't
distinguish from Ayahuasca and it's in all of these Length
assemblages. So you did though.
You tried this this combination? Yeah, yes, yes.
I mean, every everything I write about, I try it because I want
to make sure I want to understand like right now, I'm
working on the chapter on. That's good to know.
You're not sitting back like that.
Let's see what happens when they try this.
Yeah. I'm like the housing housing.
He was a medical doctor, but he wouldn't give it any of his
patients, a drug, unless he had taken it him.
Self. So I kind of I'm inspired by
haldane to say, well, if you want to talk about it you need
to be sure what you're talking about.
And it absolutely is entheogenic and if those plants were found
alone, I probably wouldn't bat an eye at it because you could
argue that the good that see a tree.
Can't those was being used for firewood or for building.
Even though they didn't build with it they tended to build
with cedar because Cedar, was there this the sacred tree to
them? But the good did see a tree.
Can't those shows up in all these potential assemblages next
to passion flower but like I said, I wouldn't bat an eye at
those if it weren't for the fact that they're listed alongside
things like black Nightshade datura and morning glory seeds.
So once I started really unpacking this, this stuff and
reading everything I could find. I finally stumbled upon a report
by a woman named Judith night who's also So passed away on the
reverence for this moth, this particular moth species, that
shows up in all of this different Mississippian, heart,
it shows up in Moundville. It even shows up in Southwestern
art, in the Zuni art and bowls from.
Where does that mound called Pottery Mound?
I think it's called, but this moth was identified by and
Entomologist as men dukkha sexta, which is tobacco moth,
and it only lays its eggs and feeds on Tobacco and debt Tira.
So they see this as kind of a Divine figure.
It can eat, it can consume this stuff and it and they the
transformation into the moth from.
The larvae was also significant to them.
There are shell gorgets courgettes are these He's
necklace kind of like pendants that they would wear and there
are examples of shamans emerging from a cocoon.
That's very much like these cocoons that are made.
These Crystal has crystal eye that are made by these these
caterpillars. These, they call them hornworms
tobacco hornworms and I even found ethnological reports of a
myth or talking about a myth and it's the Sun.
God is trying to determine if these two boys are his kids or
claiming to be his kids and these, they're the hero twins
that show up in virtually every Mississippian culture.
So, he says, handle the world cultures, right?
I mean, you have, yeah, it's the Roman is it I'm drawing a blank
Romulus and Romulus. Yeah, exactly.
Yeah. Yeah, this hero twins, Motif.
And it shows up in Central America, it shows up in South
America. But it shows up here, to, and
virtually every Mississippian culture, and he gives them a
test and this test becomes what's called a charter for a
rite of passage for young boys, a myth, they use myths to
Explain why they do certain things.
Once they use it that way, archaeologists called it a
charter. So it becomes a charter for this
rite of passage for boys where he tells them, you see that.
You see that caterpillar right there.
That worm, he pukes blue stuff. If you watch him and they tell
the boys to take that caterpillar and put it in their
mouth. Don't chew it up, but just put
it in their mouth and then spit the juice out like they do
tobacco well. This horn worm.
Unlike other insects is, unaffected by nicotine, nicotine
is toxic to most insects and kills them, but this hornworm
can not only not be affected by it, but it can hold it in its
body as long as it wants. And it can eject at will, as a
defense mechanism. So they've got these boys
holding this worm in their mouth, so it can spit in their
mouths. Now, I don't know if the spit
that if the caterpillar somehow. Metabolizes the substance and
makes it different somehow or or easier to deal with.
But when they pass, this test takes a Calumet Off the Wall,
which a peace pipe and he packs it with something.
He calls the tobacco that kills, and he said okay, and if they
can smoke it and survive, then he knows their Supernaturals in
their his children. So within the, the
archaeological reports that In a logical reports they're all
these overwhelming examples of entheogen.
Use among the mississippians. The most obvious are these
shells that they drink out of and they would these shells come
from, from the Gulf, they are. What's called a lightning Welk
Show. This is that the Blackwater,
right? Black drink that her black trim
cast. A Cena is what they called it.
At least the Florida natives called it Cocina.
And the this, this drink it's made from that ilex vomitoria
that caffeine Source. Well, when the Spanish and the
French show up and they observe these natives doing this ritual,
they've got this black drink they've boiled up with the
Cocina and the shells. They're not little shells,
they're huge. They fill them with this stuff
and they drink it conch, shells or like what what are we talking
here? Yeah, like I've got a small one
here. This is a small example but it's
one of these. Okay.
And this is the same species because they only wanted them to
spiral to the left. You see the Spiral goes this
way, whereas, other species virtually, every other species,
spirals to the right. So they wanted these in
particular but the Lemoine for example, made these woodcuts of
the ritual where they're sitting around drinking it and vomiting
over and over, they drink it and they vomit.
And it was this observation that led botanist to classify it as
vomitoria and thought for years that this was in a medic.
Well it only grows in certain areas, one of the area's is in
North Mississippi. So of course I was like, well,
I'm gonna go get some and I'm going to make some and we'll see
if we vomit and then we'll know if it makes you vomit.
It does not make you vomit. I've, I've drink lots of this
stuff. It'll make you speed, but it
won't make you vomit. It.
So why are they vomiting? I think, the reason they're
vomiting is probably because of this Ayahuasca analog that they
were mixing with it. So, in the literature, it says
that the base is this Cocina, this ilex vomitoria, but there
were a number of different secretive plants.
They would add to it for different purposes.
One of those plants we know was datura because Was something
like, 90% of the shell cups that remain come from Spiro, Oklahoma
and a group of scientists got together and they tested the
residues of these cups and they tested positive for debt Tara.
And for Theobroma caffeine related things from the Hilux,
so we know they were drinking the debtor away with it.
We I don't know if they were looking for something like a
DMT, or if it would be if you'd be able to find it after that
many years, 1000 years. But you know what?
So, the dating on the black drink for like the
archaeological record has ten. Fifty a d--, is that kind of
Where you fell? That's when the Mississippian
culture started, right? But those butts, there's same
shell Cups have been discovered in the graves of people from the
Hopewell. That's why I'm asking because I
don't believe a lot of these dates seem.
So, relatively new, it's like, if this stuff was going on, then
then then it was going on a lot longer than they.
Just don't have evidence physical evidence for it.
It was definitely going on and a good agree.
We know it was because the Rick the ritual they're going through
even they're trying to say goes back no further than 910 50-ish
that. But there's a study that was
done on a particular Mound complex, that matches this
ritual to a tee where they're doing what they're explaining is
this actual place that goes back to Hopewell times.
So the ritual is at least that old Old and it involves bear Mah
kwahm and Nico has his name in a jeep.
When he's who brought the me to we went, which is known as the
grand medicine Society to the natives and me to.
We went has like this secret society of shamans that's
particularly focus on plants and how to use plants for healing.
Well, one of the names for this bear is the left-handed one.
And Say this. There's the charter for this.
Is this story about a man who he comes home and he realizes his
mother. Or his wife has been murdered
and he thinks it's a bear, that's done it and he goes out
to The Bear Village and he starts a launching arrows at the
Bears and he kills several of them.
And one of these Bears sees him coming and he puts his moccasins
on so he can run away but he puts them on the wrong feet
because he's in such a hurry and they say that That this is why
bearpaws their tracks are moved outward instead of inward like a
man's tracks because his moccasins are on the wrong feet
in festivals from Aqua or forbear.
The eat the things that bear likes to eat like honey maple
sugar, berries, and they only use their left hand as an
indication of that. It's like saying at the end of
his right arm as a left hand. So when they want to do
something to Revere, R him or honor him, they use their left
hand and that's what I suspect is.
The real meaning behind the left-handed shells that spiral
to the left there. It's the it's evidence that this
drink goes back to at least as far as this this bear ritual.
That that is the charter for the meter we win.
And the meter we win. They they have these powders his
magic powders, they carry and they carry them and animal sacs
called media way on and they'll usually make them from the skin
of the animal that's related to the degree that they belong to.
So it's a four degree system, later became eight degrees
system. But in the original original
model, it's a 4 degree system. And in each degree, is ruled by
a different Manito, which is a supernatural and these are in
Envisaged as being animals. So 1 degree is ruled by otter.
One degree is ruled by bear, one is ruled by Owl.
And for each of these degrees, they have these magic pouch has
almost like a gris-gris bag and who do or a packet Congo and
Voodoo. And they put in these, these
pouches these magic herbs, they use and they're constantly
referencing Hunters medicine that they described as being a
Vermilion colored. Powder which was just stunning
to me having spent the last 20 years, investigating Alchemy in
this red powder problem. And at one point, they even
named the fucking plant. And one of the charters,
remember there, they have these Rites of Passage one of them to
determine whether or not. The boy is actually the son of a
supernatural. And they have him lay on a bed
of Honey Locust Thorns, honey locust is good at see a tree at
Kent. Those while he's laying on them,
he gets put in a pot and boiled so he's boiled with the honey
locust in this pot and this is the tree that they say, they get
their Hunters medicine from, they even describe it as
Vermilion colored and another Charter at from a different
meeting. We went group has Sick girl,
there are two girls instead of two boys, one of them is deathly
ill. Her body is basically rotting
and she smells awful and the other daughter says, I can't
stand the way she smells, you know, can we do something about
it? And she overhears her and she's
so she runs away and she goes to sleep beneath.
This tree that it says has sharp bows sharp bowels.
Excuse me, though, the overhang of the tree and has thorns in it
basically. And eventually, they dig the
roots up of this tree and I kid you not it says they recover a
stone from the route that they get red powder from and that's
Hunters medicine. That's, that's stunning to me.
I just absolutely staggering to me but that's what I thought.
That's what I'm calling them. This missive osca hypothesis is
this overwhelming evidence that there Using DMT.
And now, in some cases, There isn't passion flower, there will
be tree account. Those the glad that see a tree,
can't those but passiflora incarnata doesn't show up in
about two or three different reports where the tree does.
So I thought well how does it work?
The more I started digging nicotiana, Rustica works as a
monoamine, oxidase inhibitor. I didn't know that tobacco
certain tobacco strains were maois.
But this one is. And and when I looked even
further and started investing in the chemistry of this, ilex
vomitoria, the Yaupon Holly that they make the black drink from.
It's a monoamine. Oxidase inhibitor.
Just like yerba mate is a monoamine.
Oxidase inhibitor. so, it's overwhelming evidence that
they're using a DMT and Ayahuasca analog, but even if
they're not, they are using datura, they are using morning
glory seeds. They are using black Nightshade.
So it's a pretty evolved complex system of medicine that they've,
they've arrived at, and it's all but lost at this point.
I brought this thesis to the attention of a chair Chief who
is also a Mason and a rosicrucian.
So we get along. We've known each other for a
while, and frankly, he was offended by everything.
I was saying that I would even insinuate this later, he sent me
an article called Altered States of America from an archaeology
magazine by Gail Keck as the author.
It confirms everything I'm saying.
So, I took that to mean, you know, I can't tell you what this
is but here that talks about it here, that's so mi.
So hee was in offended at the fact that you were talking about
possibly some of their sacred secret rituals.
Something you probably should know, or he was more offended
that you were insinuating that they used entheogens or like,
what was the both both? He admitted to me that they used
something, they use datura. But he said it's not like you
think and I said, well what do you think?
I think you know, hey said what we're not using it to trip.
It's a medicine and I said, well, of course, it's a
medicine, that's what every indigenous culture calls this
stuff. It's a medicine, you know, but
it, but you're using it and that was pretty much where the
conversation ended. But and I don't know if someone
else was present, this was over the phone.
So I don't know if someone else was present and overheard him
talking to me about, Isn't he thought?
You know, I need to shut this down, you know, pretty quick or
not. But this is a man who's been
doing peyote since he was seven and payroll rights.
So I already thought why would you be offended by it?
Where would you be bashful about this?
Yeah yeah he's a Cherokee Chief out of Oklahoma and very
knowledgeable. He gave a lecture on how Masonic
Ritual actually influence the way peyote is used in the half
moon, ceremony, the Quanah Parker created, I didn't realize
this, but a lot of natives became Freemasons right off the
bat were immediately attracted to it.
And after investigating the me to we win, it makes sense
because they already have this graded degree structure, where
Mysteries are dulled out, you know, slowly at a time and and
The Acacia correlation. They blew my mind like you got
to remember it. It's Acacia Americana.
Also, we found evidence of the case, you use all over the place
in an entheogen of context and America.
It looks like is right there in the middle of it.
North America, we know in South America, there's an atom Thera
call you Brina, and an add-in in therapy.
Peregrina, which is where we get yo, popo or a penis snuff that
they make from the Saudis. He's with the Rustica with the
DMT containing and áanotherá that would be enough to launch
off. Yep.
Absolutely. Would so snuff that's probably
what they were doing with the snuff.
Yeah, there's there's evidence of snuffs the fact that it was a
red powder leads me to believe that it was probably a snuff.
Yeah, you're spot-on. Yeah, I like I said I went back
to that episode and re-watched. It the Jonathan well.
It was a Hamilton's pharmacopoeia episode where he
was trying to recreate Jonathan dots journey to Argentina where
there's a specific and áanotherá tree there.
That they do this specific ceremony and stuff like that.
So yeah, the guy, he's one of the few legit shamans.
Seen on a television show. I couldn't believe I was
watching that, but that guy that he meant that that gave him that
snuff, you're looking at a real Shaman when you're looking at
that. I believe hearing you talk about
this reminds me of hopping I think that's how you say it,
right? Same kind of thing, right?
Yep. It's a that's just a tobacco
snuff but you do have people now adding things like cocoa to it
just kind of synergize it, but I think it is pronounced wrap a
but the Rope AP the rapey pronunciation led us here to try
and say it differently but the Taisha that I know that uses
right. Fire to Ayahuasca ceremonies.
He calls it rapping Yeah, that's that's, that's pretty much the
same, the same stuff. I don't, I think the so down in
South America, and Central America, they're also using
Rustica. It's only in, and the Southwest
they don't have Rustica, they have nicotiana obtuse, a Folia.
Now, this is interesting too. So I went to Arizona with Jamie
Paul lamb, shout out to Jamie. Astrologer and brother Mason and
he took me to. It's called dear dear.
I don't think it's Deer Park but it's dear something Petroglyph
Park and we walked all around. It must have been the entire
area was probably 11 or 12 acres all the way up there.
I didn't see any plants. I mean, it's the desert.
I didn't see hardly anything growing except for like
Sagebrush when we got to the petroglyphs, which are Are
already strange-looking because they're enormous Boulders that
no one could move and it would take a group of men to move them
and they look stacked. It doesn't look, it's not a
mountain, it's a bunch of rocks stacked in a pile just like we
see in Alabama with the The Rockpile Mounds but they're
bigger and all over. These stones are these
petroglyphs that are At the time were puzzling.
I couldn't figure out what I was looking at now.
I know that at least two of those symbols were that moth The
Moth that we were talking about earlier, manduca sexta.
But once I see there's a rope, you know, and you're not
supposed to go past that rope, of course, I mean I jump the
rope and and I will because I saw some plants growing
underneath each of the petroglyphs almost like directly
under every Petroglyph. When I got close enough to see
what they were, they were datura.
Mattel and nicotiana obtuse of Folia datya and desert tobacco
under every Petroglyph. So I thought well these must
just be native here. I guess so.
Jamie and I walked the whole area we couldn't find a single
specimen anywhere else in this desert where we were able to go
only under these petroglyphs. So I asked a botanist, a friend
In about it is so cool. You know what are the chances
that this grows only there and he said, well, those two plants
where they drop their seeds, they grow.
And I said well, for how long for potentially a thousand years
or more, if the weathers right, if the climate's, right?
And so I said, what are the chances that those plants were
planted under the pastor? And he said, well I can't answer
that but if you didn't find them anywhere else in the desert the
chances are probably pretty good.
Well, Fast forward like two weeks and I run across this
article of these archaeologists that were studying the
petroglyphs on this 24, Mile Stretch and New Mexico.
And every time they saw one particular glyph, which is a
triangular, a jagged looking glyph.
They found either nicotiana obtuse a folio or detriment ill
and the, so her there Oh thinking this symbol for them is
like this is writing, this is language and it need cakes,
these plants. Well that right jack is
conveying information people. You're right and that for a
preliterate society, it's saying we see this on the jars to that
saying, this is what the contents of this jar are.
But those Jagged Motif shows up in pottery and Zuni, pottery and
it's the jagged Motif on the wing of manduca, sexta, the same
exact movement and motion. Ocean a downward, kind of
movement and the Mississippian culture before it becomes the
Mississippian culture. The first real picture we get of
it is in a place called picture cave and it's this private cave
that was recently auctioned off for like a million dollars.
So somebody owns and it's on private land.
But in it is that same Jagged pattern along with several other
images that we associate with the mississippians like the
Birdman red horn. There's also known as morning
star with the long nose mask gets four earrings.
One of his name's is he who wears human heads on his ears
and those long nose mess gets those are those twins.
He's their father. That shows up there for the
first time in this is eighth Century.
Ninth Century right before the mississippians happen, but that
same Jagged pattern is on the wall and there. so, absolutely
just Mind-boggling to me. I'm so in meshed in this and
here for this right now that I can I can barely keep my mind on
anything else. You're doing?
Me a favor by letting me talk. Oh, dude, I love this shit.
I love learning things. I people get mad at me.
Yeah, I'm like dying here. I'm so wrapped up in this, it's
so cool. I people give me a lot of shit.
They're like because, you know, I say I want people to blow my
mind you know, like, there's not enough If people out there that
are doing like enough research or so, it's like some of these
Fringe communities. I'll say like, who's blowing
your mind? And, you know, almost take it
down a Socratic method. Road, while ask them a bunch of
questions and then the result is them answering in.
Like, oh, well, there's this person or there's that person
but that person, blah, blah, blah, blah.
And you realize, like a lot of these people don't know shit.
You know? So it's like, so when I listen
to you talk, first of all, Can look up everything you're saying
and cross-reference and it's everything you're sayings
accurate. You know, obviously aside from
your personal research where you lay that out within your
hypothesis and your book and everything like that.
But the dating the the timelines, all that kind of
wonderful stuff. It's not like what you're
sayings, crazy. But like a lot of people don't
take it to the level you do. So I, you know, I love the
passion. That's why we're doing this
series because Cuz I want to learn stuff.
You know, I don't really and I'm not saying this to be like cocky
or anything, but I don't really talk to that many people where
I'm like, learning like a ton of new stuff from the most of the
stuff I learned is from reading books, reading old books,
reading dense books, you know, that kind of reading, you know,
you and me are kind of similar, like, we read a lot of classical
philosophy stuff, stuff about Plato stuff about, you know,
Parmenides all that kind of theurgy, all that kind of stuff.
So, it's like, Again I want to learn.
So if there's nobody bringing anything really new to the
table, it's like woah, bro. You know, like we just smoked
like TNT dog, you know, you know it's like stuff like that's like
no I'm good on that. I want to know the cultural
aspects of it. I want to know the secret
society aspects of that. I want to know about the
pharmacology. You know, I want to know about
all that kind of stuff. So it's just like the Bro
Science stuff. I'm way beyond that.
So one of the one of the The things that's so compelling PD
and hearing you talk. First of all is I'm a big fan of
this kind of Rogue scientist approach you know the things
that we saw with. Whether Timothy Leary or
Alexander shulgin or John Lilly, right, this willingness and very
internalized sense of curiosity and openness to the varieties of
experience, that's as a capital R romantic like hearing you work
out. This is very, very appealing to
me because I have such a curious mind and I A big fan of
experimentation but also, you know, just philosophically
speaking. What's really compelling to me
is I think when we were talking about science, in any sense it
tends to be this very prepositional kind of knowledge,
and modernity, this idea that it's something to be read and
learned about, but knock, not actually participated in and
there is as you were saying this participatory knowledge or
gnosis, that's it. Viewed by actually participating
in these experiences and ceremonies that far, outstrips
kind of the material assessment of what's going on.
And I think that when we're talking about these expensive
experiences or psychedelics or meditation or breathwork or
whatever else there, you can only kind of obliquely get at
the heart of these experiences through like literal
documentation. There is this sort of
Participatory knowledge and gnosticism at the heart of it,
that can only really be conferred by experiencing it.
Hmm. I think that's a pivotal notion
to and in genuine spiritualities.
That I don't think you can get it unless you dive in a little
bit and do it and take it at face value and listen to what
they're saying and and try a good example.
As Palo mayombe, another thing I'm really Get into right now.
I'm taking it my initiation into Paulo next month and in Paulo
eautiful, you're asked to kind of accept a world view that for
modern westerners is very difficult because everything is
centered around the dead. There's, there's this notion
that you're only alive to the degree that the dead flow
through you, your porous. And what animates is Early your
ancestors which they call Colunga.
It's the word that you will antic ocean but it means this
massive, the anonymous a dead that moves through you and makes
you makes you animate. And when I first encountered
that I thought am I going to be okay if afterwards if I accept
this worldview, am I going to be able to keep functioning If I
think that way but those are the leaps that have to be made.
I really believe that if we want to understand anything about it.
And with this, this territory, this Native American territory,
like Mike said about the cultural side of it, not just
the drugs are using but the cultural side.
Well what they're doing with it is dying.
This they're dying traveling. There mean of course it's
ritual. Wised, they're putting on a
ritual that you're going through nominally, what you would go
through, really? If you were dead and it's to
teach you what to do when you die, it's practical to say
because if you don't know, you don't know where to go, you
don't know how to do it. And for them, it Fascinate this
fascinates me to that knowledge isn't for everyone.
Not everyone gets to know what you do when you die.
That's initiated knowledge. Is a special place you too, but
not everybody can get their. You know, that's that's very
fascinating to me because it this modern culture that, you
know, this this notion that everything should be free to
everybody. And there should be no secrets
and all the door should be open. I don't think that way at all.
I think that right that wisdom and is, is granted, you're not
give you my take on that. And I know you could, you have a
different take as your in some of these organizations and
stuff. An epiphany that I came to was
that it's not that this knowledge is being withheld from
people from these secret organizations, or Societies, or
clubs or whatever it is mentors, whatever.
Its you have to seek it out yourself and through seeking,
you know, you can't. How am I trying to?
It's not about People being kept kept from knowing it's about.
Like you said it's kind of its kind of a hybrid of what I'm
saying and what you're saying? You're saying not everybody
supposed to have that and I agree but I think that that
comes with what I'm saying which is you have to seek that
knowledge out yourself. You cannot just be given that
knowledge. It means nothing to you.
If you've done nothing to gain that knowledge.
So when we have a world full of people right now that want
everything just handed to them or put down on Google or Wiki or
whatever, we're in a place now. Now, where it should just be
easy in the minds of most people.
But in reality, these topics, whether it be psychedelics the
Mind death, what happens when we die metaphysics, these are very
complicated topics. So we're not putting in the
work, as a society and that's what we're witnessing is.
Kind of like, what you're talking about, I again, but I
don't think it's Gatekeepers keeping people out.
I think it's people keeping themselves out by just not being
interested in the mysteries of life.
Kind of a thing. Yep.
Part. And part of it is for, for the
protection of the uninitiated. It's not my place explode.
Someone's worldview. That's, that's violent.
And it's mean, and a large percentage of the secrecy,
especially in these societies, is for the protection of of the
person, but what you are saying, I think is valid to because When
you allow a purse, like let's take music.
For example, your big music fan like I am, if if If I show my
brother, I love my brother to death, but if I show him
anything music or something, he's not going to listen to it.
He, but if he finds it himself, he'll be like, oh, man.
If you heard this, I'll say yeah, fucking showed you that
like two years ago, it did I know exactly.
I know exactly what you're talking about.
Yeah, because it's too. It's too easy.
And I remember showing Maurice, unfreeze McGee, and weaned, and
same thing with my cousin Rob. And they're both.
Like what the fuck is this? And then later I'm like dude
have you checked out Quebec? Or have you checked out this
new? I'm like, but but I, but I don't
give him too much. You like my cousin.
Rob got me into fish which is like my favorite band now.
So it's like you know, it's a little bit of a back-and-forth
with all that but I completely agree with what you're saying.
On the other hand, to I also used to give guitar lessons and
the kids that learned and learned quickly where the kids
that wanted to play the guitar. Not the kids, whose parents made
them play the guitar, that was okay.
I took away from that experience was the kids that wanted to
learn like they would come be excited.
Oh, guitar lesson and I want to learn this song and that song
and I want to do this. And those were the kids that
actually walked away with something and in the kids who
were just forced to do it was just like it was brutal, you
know? So yeah.
And you think about the way Alchemists work and how chemical
manuscripts, they give you half truths and and Giving you a
half, truth is the biggest gift. It's much more valuable than
giving you the whole truth, because it's an invitation to
discover yourself to get involved and figure it out.
If there's not a riddle, we don't feel like we've
accomplished anything by being handed something.
We just set it back down on our Shelf, we make a spot for it and
a pretty little box. And we say, yeah, I know that,
you know, but you don't, you don't until you are in, Almost
impelled to to figure that out for yourself and then it means
something. Yeah I agree.
Yeah I've been you can you can take that philosophy and apply
at all the stuff. But yeah, I mean, I agree with
partly what you're saying and I obviously there's a reason why
those whether it be Freemasons or rosicrucians or Any of these
organizations or Societies or whatever they're trying to
preserve and maybe there's a secrecy aspect to to preserve
those Traditions, just to not let anybody come in and alter or
change or becomes game of telephone or something like
that. Which I'm sure it's happened to
some extent. Anyways, given time with masonry
with masonry, the secrecy is, is there's a difference in secrets
and Mysteries. These secrets are just modes of
recognition. The handshakes the passwords,
the steps, the things that would get you in a lodge.
Anything else we can talk about because those are Mysteries
which are said in masonry they say are ineffable.
Meaning I can't, I can't. If you don't have a frame of
reference for it it's not going to mean anything to you.
If I tell you the whole thing it wouldn't matter.
Because those are Mysteries different from Secrets.
Yeah, I think percent what percentage, what percentage of
Mason's would you say are in to not necessarily psychedelics but
just these like more metaphysical elements of these
traditions because I've talked to a couple people that made it
just seemed like it was more like a beer-drinking networking
kind of a thing. Social fraternity.
Thank you.
It's social for sure, but the way masonry Worx number one,
masonry is a microcosm. The ratio of assholes is the
same inside as outside. Now, the second point is that,
when, As Above So Below, Yep. That's exactly the same.
The ratio of people who could get it is the same inside as
outside so don't think you're going to come into a lodge and
everybody is going to be talking about Kabbalah and Alchemy and
Taro and Sufism. They're not is their lodges that
are just subtle do contain like, mostly those types of people are
known as that not exist. Yes, there are lodges that that
Put you through hell to get into, make sure that you're the
right person they want. And then they have a club
setting of people of like mind but that's not really what
masonries about masonry is supposed to be about people that
aren't of like mind being able to sit next to one another as a
Brotherhood under a fatherhood of God kind of thing.
But but this, the the Yeah, it's the same, really?
I mean, I don't I don't I've never been to a lodge where just
everyone was in tune but I don't think they're supposed to be
masonry is a science of man and there are so many facets of
Manliness that. I think there's plenty of room
for people who could care less about any of that other stuff.
But the the other point I was going to make is that masonry is
like an invitation to a banquet. Not everybody is going to eat
and those who do eat aren't going to take a bite of
everything. You're you're invited to explore
what? They're offering you but you're
not made to What You're Made to do is give this mouth to ear
word-for-word transmission. So that a like you said, we know
it's going to be the same throughout the years, the
telephone game won't screw it up and be we at least can Be sure
that the the individual Mason has internalized, the work to
some degree because he's memorized it masonry works on
catechisms. So after you take your first
degree before, you can take the second degree.
There are 56 questions and answers that you have to know
word for word. If you miss a single word, you
don't pass and you have to do it again and that's not written
down. You have to meet some old dude.
Dude at the lodge on his day off and tells you stuff.
Yeah, I told you. I remember when we had Randall
Carlson on, I think it might have been.
We've had them on like three times.
I might have been the second episode where he was talking
about, how going through the rights actually improved his
memory because of all the memorization and everything like
that. And through that process is
actually made him like a better researcher to.
Absolutely. I had no idea.
I could fit all that stuff in there.
I mean I really doubted and that was possible.
But after going through masonry, I there's no limit to what I can
fit in there and be confident that I can recall.
It that masonry also made me more confident and addressing
people public speaking. You know, because you're forced
to get up and give answers in front of sometimes, you know,
200 men that you don't know. But you you have to get to a
place where you're comfortable. With your opinions, whether
you're, you're going to piss somebody off.
No matter what you say. So figure out, just figure out
how to articulate it. Don't worry about the responses,
but it's helped me a lot, I think.
But earlier you, when you mention the cultural aspect of
these uses Freemasonry, is this death and Resurrection ritual,
just like we see in, theurgy this death and Resurrection
ritual. The way that these natives were
using, these entheogens were in the same context and they would
drink different drugs. For each part of this degree
structure for each segment. This idea comes from first time
I read it was this guy named Jeff Kent, Riley, the third,
absolutely brilliant. Researcher who holds an annual
or biannual conference at Texas University.
T of different archaeologists and ethnologist and natives
trying to just make sense of all of this Miss.
What did Kevin Reilly do? He wrote about he was making the
point that these are preliterate people never mind that because
you said f can't Riley, I said what did get look.
Never mind. It was a stupid joke.
It was a dad joke. I'm a dad.
Now, what can I say you are? That's, that is a bad joke.
But he said, these are like prescription bottles.
The prescription bottle tells you what's in the, what's in the
bottle, and these different pots.
Have different symbols on them. One will be a winged snake.
That's one specific drug one will be a hand with an.
I what looks like an i and the Palm.
It's not an i it's it's more like a vagina.
It's or vulva. It's called a noogie, which is
an old. It's a old English term for for
furniture that has curves on it. But if you put the two together,
you get the vesica piscis shape that reminds us of an eyeball on
my. Yeah.
So somebody posted something a couple weeks ago about the
petroglyphs that show the Oggy And The American South and they
were saying that it looks very Celtic because there's that The
hand with the eyes part of the Celtic.
Do you think there's any chance? Yeah, yeah.
So, it was all right and actually shout out we should
have done this earlier but shout-out to dr.
Greg Little, we've had them on the podcast five or six times.
He's a wealth of knowledge. We've talked about Native
American Mounds. We did a whole slide show up.
I sewed with them and a patreon. We've done episode on Edgar
Cayce episode on UFOs episode on Atlantis episode, he knows so
much about So many different things pharmacology and
psychedelics you name it, but I know you've been content, you
know, you've been in Cotton, you know, then going back and forth
with him about a lot of this stuff.
And if you're on Twitter, yeah, exactly.
Pharmacology was this the last copy of his drug boat?
He if you're on Twitter, follow them on Twitter.
Dr. Gregory little and he's just posting Native American Mounds
pretty much all day long so if you like that kind of stuff.
Highly recommend it, but yeah. So back to the Oogie.
So you think it's just a universal symbol, but where do
you think? I don't know.
You don't. Okay then, let's sorry.
I didn't know. That's what.
So in Greg's book, when he's talking about that symbol.
He says everybody, he asked, they would say, oh, the hand and
the eye, that's universal symbol, you know, he'd say, but
what does it mean? And they'd say, oh, it's a
universal symbol, it shows up everywhere.
As as though, that That tells you what it means but it was F
can't Riley's group, that determined that finally figured
out what it means. And what it is is, remember I
said in theurgy, they have these two portals in the sky.
One of those portals is as near the constellation of Orion, what
the Greeks recognized as Orion but of course that's a great
conception the natives. Don't see Orion when they look
at the The sky. But they do see pictures.
They do see mids in the stars. And what they see at what those
Orion's Belt, they see as a wrist that's been cut.
Off of a hand, a severed hand, they call it the Chiefs hand.
That's right. That's right now, I remember.
And that's what is hanging there.
And and this in this native model once you die First off
that, there's this serpent, the that rules, the sky during the
summer, he's this horned winged serpent that if he if you try to
enter this portal during the summer, he will snatch you up
and take you to the underworld. So they don't even tell stories
about this serpent during the summer because he'll hear you,
but during the winter in the serpent, is Scorpio they they
see what What the Greeks saw as a scorpion, they see as this
winged snake, but in the winter, it never comes above the Horizon
at night so you never see Scorpio during the winter.
So this is the time that they would do their funeral rites,
they would deflesh the bodies and store the bones until the
right time, which was this winter solstice .8 and they'd
take these bones up. We're going to talk about this
after the There's some this is a synchronicity, the only orb
thing I've seen in the sky actually took place within
Scorpio. At the end of October, which was
kind of weird. You're saying what you're saying
right now? Because right now, right on the
horizon. But we'll talk about that later.
Sorry. Go ahead.
The funeral rites winter solstice So they do this funeral
in the winter. In this funeral is what they're
tall. If they are initiated, if they
haven't been through it, they can do what's called a ghost
Lodge and meet at. We went where somebody can fill
in for you and do it. So, they become psycho pumps.
Basically, that guides the soul through this journey.
Cool. And there are at least two or
three different Charters, where they're talking about how the
soul has to be launched, like an arrow shot.
Like an arrow, towards the Chiefs hand, and into the Oogie,
or OG you'll see it pronounce different both ways once you get
through there. That's how you get on the Milky
Way. The Milky Way is what they call
the path of souls. This is exactly what happens and
theurgy and there are different explanations for it, but in
Plato, Plato talks about how the ecliptic that will say, this is
the ecliptic, the, which is where this planets, and the Sun
rises in the east and set in the west, make their circle around
the earth, which would be here in the center.
Well, Crossing that is the Milky Way and it makes what Plato
calls in X. Because if you see it from the
side, it's a big X. But as the Milky Way, is wrapped
around the ecliptic. Of course, there are two points
for they connect those two points are those portals and
porphyry calls them the gates of the moon and the gates of
Saturn, because he's Hellenistic, he's using tropical
astrology, and he fixes things and just like, tropical
astrology uses fixed positions. So he fixes them, and they're
actually in the Wrong places and porphyry.
Manila is correct him and says, you know, where they actually
are and manila's? Is he?
What the explanation? He gives is identical to the one
you read in Egyptian Book of the Dead and the coffin texts and
the pyramid texts as well as in Babylonian systems.
One gate is near Taurus. One gate is near Scorpio,
there's a great monograph by a researcher named, George latura
Becky, Called visible Gates. And Pagan Skies order that if
you don't have it, it's super cheap.
It has everything. But the Native American model,
because I don't think he was aware of it, but it goes through
the Greek Egyptian and Babylonian models and shows how
they're all about getting into this gate and onto the Milky
Way. But that's what they're doing
with this. So it's the natives, they're
waiting until winter and then they perform this ritual and
they face West and right before Sunrise, Orion the Chiefs hand
becomes to the Horizon. And it's almost like the way the
Egyptians put it is Osiris. The Orion is Osiris for them,
Osiris is standing on the Earth. The Earth and that's when you
assume the form of Orion of Osiris, and then you can enter
the underworld with him. Assuming the form is like, if
you're familiar with the Golden Dawn, they have Assumption of
God forms, which is basically you imagining, right?
That you are this deity sitting in positions like him.
So they're becoming this way, natives are shooting themselves
into it and that's interesting. And for another reason because
like in Cahokia, they would bury the dead with these tiny little
arrow points that are impossible to shoot their they're less than
an inch long but they're carved in the shapes of morning.
Glory and debt to relieves I'm not making this up.
This is from Timothy pocket. Etz new book because I don't
believe you, bro. I get that a lot but pocket tet.
He he just wrote this book called gods of thunder and shows
side by side these points with these leaves, the souls are
represented by these arrowheads and the arrowheads represent
psychedelic plants. Cool, they shoot it.
The soul is to be shot like an arrow into that, constellation
into the hole. Once it goes through, there it
goes down, a little ways because the way the way the Milky Way
moves isn't, it's not like a perfect cross this way, it's an
angle. So you got to go down a little
ways and then you jump off, you take an exit and get on the
Milky Way and it takes you all the way around to the ecliptic
where the sun rises. So you're you're entering the
West riding the Milky Way Around coming up with the sun and the
ecliptic where you meet this This bird figure at the top of
the heavens, which is the cygnus constellation.
This is mainly what Greg Littles book is about.
This process. Each of these figures were
talking about the hand with the eye, the Birdman symbol.
All of these are on different cups, symbols on different cups,
according to Riley, different drugs.
Go in each one of them. So, when you join this sodality,
this little, this medicine society, which is so it's only
the M we win for the Ojibwe, but medicine, sodality is existed
in. Lots of different cultures.
And one of the main ones that that Georgie Lankford talks
about is the Moundville medicine society and Moundville is where
all of these symbols show up and it looks like they're using
malmö malmö becomes a necropolis.
It's a booming City like Cahokia or Spiro, but eventually, they
stopped building people move away and they only meet their
for funerals. The people doing the funerals
are the secret, Piety that know how to get there, how to get to
the lodge in the sky basically? But each of the pots.
So you take your first degree, you're going to, it's going to
have to do with the first step on that path.
The going the hand and the eye and that's on several of these
pots. You take the next step, it
depends on the region, some of them have dogs that you have to
deal with in between and some of them have snakes that you have
to coax with magic words and to laying down and becoming a log
Bridge. So you could cross this River.
But what we're seeing with these pots with these images on them
are literally descriptions of not only the Place.
They're meant to propel you to the experience.
They're meant to induce, but also the drug they contain.
So, when you talk about cultural side of this, it's very rich in.
And it's a death culture, it's a funeral culture, it's an
ancestral kind of culture. Yeah, it's fascinating Leah.
I know you got to get out of here soon.
Did you have any specific questions for PD before you
bounce out? You know honestly I do it partly
because very candidly this is an area.
A much about. Although I'm loving the
discussion about how some of this maps to Western esotericism
and very much a child of the rosicrucians at the AAA of Oto,
etcetera, Etc. So, that's really fascinating.
For me, I'm always extremely fascinated by the perennials
nature of so, many of these things, and how this shows up,
whether it's in everything from DNT and Ayahuasca experiences
through deliberate practices. But I also, I did I want to
personally say a couple things about something you talked about
earlier, which is about the kind of violence and cruelty
associated with non-consent, really disrupting people's
ontology. And this is something as I've
gotten deeper and deeper into my own practices of both formal and
informal nature. These are insights and learnings
or knowledge that unwind core parts of one's identity.
It sort of reminds me of an ego death experience where Having
had them. I understand that now completely
how and why these ego death? Or you go into solution
experiences, or sort of ontological breakdowns, are
extraordinarily traumatic for people that are particularly
wedded to materialist interpretations of reality or
also are fundamentally. Unprepared for how Monumental
these experiences can be. But I will also say, on the
other side of that, be good side of that.
Is that if you are ready for these experiences or you think
you're ready, there are some of the most overwhelmingly
incredible and ecstatic and numinous experiences available
to The Human Experience. And I can say, pretty
categorically, as someone, who was on that like atheist
materialist, whatever, starting place all the way.
You threw like deep blue like living probably 90% in that
universe and 10% in like the real world, it's a it makes you
feel like you're seeing in color for the first time.
It's completely worth it. So I just I just say all of that
to say that so much of what you're saying resonates.
I feel like I'm learning so much just from listening to you and I
genuinely hope that our paths cross in the future because I'd
love to talk to you more about this work.
Oh well, thank you like that one.
That that's that's what I do it for is, you know, like Lily's
Leary said, meet the others, find the others.
Yeah you do I do this to find the others for a genuine sense
of kinship and it is special. Yes, very, very special.
Thank you so much for facility and you're afraid, you're
welcome. Every time we do one of these,
you're welcome. I mean, whatever we can fit.
Oh my people. I will certainly be back for the
next round. Both of you gentlemen, enjoy
your evening. Thank you so much for having me.
Again, of course. So yeah.
And if anybody's interested you can, please follow me on Twitter
at Lea Prime I have her link to her website down below.
She does an excellent series on her YouTube channel called The
Invisible night school where they go through the UFO UAP
phenomenon take you know they look at skeptical approaches on
top of you know some of the Believers and kind of see What's
going on? It's a really interesting format
and then also she does a sub stack that you should check out
as well so but yeah, thank you so much again, Leah.
And I'm sure the Mind Escape listeners will see you sooner
than later. Take care gentlemen.
So, yeah, so in terms of what we were talking about, so we're
talking about like path of souls.
You know, you were talking about the metaphysics.
And again, if you're looking for visual of what PD was,
describing, we actually we did a slide show up.
Sewed with dr. Greg Little a couple of years
ago but we did a patreon segment specifically on the metaphysics
of Native Americans specifically kind of what he's talking about.
And the Oggy and the hand and the underworld.
And you know, there's actually some visual representation of
that too. I think we so if you're
interested you can go check that out.
But yeah, I mean I think that for me the most interesting
aspect of all this is the crossover, right?
Like obviously different cultures and tribes and peoples,
had groups have different takes on different things, but this
missile osca Ideas interesting to me from the standpoint that
so I mean I'm sure, you know, I'm fascinated with Soma, we've
been doing a series on it and I talked about it on a lot of
episodes, as well as the loosening Mysteries and all that
kind of stuff. With the Soma stuff, you have a
migration break off, which the indo-iranian break off, which
some go to Northwest India, create the rig Veda, The Vedic,
cultures, and create Soma, and then you have the other break
off going towards Iran. And they end up creating the
avesta and they have Houma, or how much now.
Yeah. So when you have something like
that, it's hard. Not to believe that that's not
happening in other places in the world with antigenic and
traditions. Second you move or migrate to a
new area or ecosystem or whatever you have different
flora and fungi and different things available.
So, is that do you think that Maybe these people migrated up
through South America because I know from talking with dr.
Greg, some of the Mounds in South America are way older than
the North American mounds. And in South America, we have
clear evidence of San Pedro. Use going back. 3,000 years.
They found that fox snout pouch that had bufotenin and harmelin,
and coca leaves in the southwest and particularly a place called
Choco Choco Canyon. They found an entire cache of
these. Oh, by the way, there's a
documentary on Netflix right now called shots about Chaco Canyon,
if anybody had a flex check it out.
It's fucking awesome. I remember in high school
learning about the sun dagger, the way that they track the
movements and the solstices and everything like the sun peeks in
this one little spot once a year.
It's pretty fascinating. Anyway.
Sorry Co-op. It's amazing.
Amazing and Timothy Pocket at calls, it Cahokia as lunar twin
because they based a lot of ther building orientations on Lunesta
C's, which is like a solstice but it's the lunar version.
It's a 18.6 year cycle that they had figured out and kept up with
and it looks like they believe that cycle had something to do
with rain cycles and their ability to grow Maize.
But They found a cache of cylinder jars at Chaco.
When they tested them, they were positive for Coco.
Now Coco is Central, American, ultimately South Americans.
Some point south Americans brought them up and planted them
and Central America and they were able to grow their butt.
They found cylinder jars that were identical to the ones used
in South and Central America for this cocoa ritual that they
would do not only that they found mummified macaws McCall,
birds South American and Central American the red parrot.
Looking birds they found there. So we know they were coming up
from the South but through DNA evidence and through.
Geological evidence. We also know they were coming in
through the north from Mongolia in Siberia, after the Bering
Strait and entering that way. So it's both, I mean, they're
coming from both sides and when you compare, The metaphysics of
all of these Southeastern Southwestern natives, they're
remarkably similar, when you compare them to what was what's
being described about what was happening in Siberia and
Mongolia the tungus tribe, it is overwhelming.
There's even a book on it by ground, where he looks at Ojibwe
me. Did we win that ceremony?
We were talking about in terms of Siberian, Shamanism /,
Mercia, eliade, and even more recent.
So what do you think about that? What do you think about the
whole? Amanita muscaria, potentially
being obviously the the Siberian shamans supposedly used it is
used. It's used in the Native American
systems also, right? So, so, but what do you think
about that as a compound being Is being, you know, some
obviously, some people point so much because of Wasson, I don't
think that's the case, but stuff like that.
Like I've never had. I've tried Amanita twice.
I try to Ting Catcher And I tried eating some dried caps
because you have to decarboxylate it to convert the.
I botanic acid in the musket ball or else you're doing
yourself, a neurotoxic this pleasure you can't just eat
them. You can Hand, but it's not gonna
be pleasant the way to the way to do it.
And Clark Heinrich did the best job of describing how to use
them. That I know of in his book,
magic mushrooms, and religion and Alchemy, he wrote the
forward to my first book but he talks about how it's an
alchemical process. They have to.
Not only do you have to choose mature specimens because as they
age, they convert some of that I bitonic acid.
And to muscimol, they also have to be dried once they're dried.
More is converted. Then they have to be heated.
Yeah, like a cracker. Try to not like kind of dry.
They have to be like Cracker dry or School.
Yep. Fired is what the way he says,
they have to be fired. And then after that, then you
make a tea with it, which helps convert even more.
So the the name of the game is converting I bitonic acid to
muscimol. And you know as far as the net
the identification of Soma we'll probably never know what Soma
was but there have been a lot of really great arguments, Watson
has some great points. He has some really shitty
points, Chris Bennett has some great points.
He has some points that I'm like, not so much but Chris is
book is brilliant. If you haven't read his book and
you're still on the fence about the something you have to read
it. Yeah.
But and there's another cannabis in the Soma solution.
And yeah, we had him on his part.
One of these what was Soma series part two with Matthew
Clark, who has the Ayahuasca analog hypothesis?
He has. So and he, but he's the one that
told me, he didn't think that the in strands of Acacia didn't
have DMT in them. So I don't know.
I mean again, that's that what that's what makes your research,
that's much more appealing to me is you're willing to actually
try these compounds and concoctions, you know what I'm
saying? Like if you wrote a book on the
Lusitania Mysteries I have no doubt.
You'd be out there trying to figure out how to get all the
neurotoxic shit out of the our guy.
So we've already been been slowly working with her gum
blaring. I'm sure what to do, but he's at
Only wrong. I appreciate what you?
What you doing, Matthew? But there are absolutely active,
Acacia species and a lotta is active.
If you don't believe me, try 10 grams with some pig.
What about mama, and call from, from my own research on the,
some of things I don't want to go too much into this because we
were focusing on other stuff, but my takeaway was so much just
meant psychedelic along with ceremony or ritual.
Kind of like saying, it's like, Adela Theory, they might curly
wrote secret drugs and Buddhism and he's got another book coming
out. I think old psychedelic Buddhism
but he doesn't, he's not talking about Soma, he is but he ties it
into Amrita. And and, and his argument Amrita
is any substance that will induce a numinous experience.
Well, I take it back to I've read that book.
I didn't get that take away from.
I mean, I I'm not disagreeing with what you're saying.
I'm just saying My point is though is like what I was saying
about Soma, how you have the brake off?
Well, there's no way that the part of that those people landed
in, during the indo-iranian migrations the people that
landed in Iran are not going to have the same floor as the
people that landed Northwest India.
So what you have to make do with what?
Yeah with eons of use and in dealing with nomadic cultures,
spontaneously nomadic cultures and climate changes.
It's not going to be the same drug.
There are going to be what, Carl rub called surrogates.
They're going to find a surrogate for what they once had
but no longer do. So when it comes to Soma I truly
believe it's a number of things depending on which people which
time you know which location they found that mural to those
Russian archaeologists found that mural of two people holding
them. Yeah.
The mushroom over the fire, whatever.
Which in the Mongolian. That's right there, with this
Siberian, kind of a movement. I don't know, if you've read
Peter, kingsley's book a story waiting to pierce you read that.
If you haven't, it ties the whole Mongolian Siberian
shamanic thread into theurgy and Precinct.
Mainly pre-socratic, Greek philosophy Is that real to the
fact that the Siberian shamans drink?
The reindeer piss is that, or is that a true at all?
I've never been So I can, yeah, I don't, I take everything with
with a Shaker of salt. Yeah, I mean that try it myself
and I'm not about to drink some reindeer.
I got some I harvest. Every year we get a Manny, the
university, no insurance, which are our of, or what's the one
stamets was talking about his? I think it was panthera and
Medina. Oh yeah, Panther.
Yeah. From when he was talking about
but he hit that sounded like not the most pleasant experience and
I don't work. If you're if you're if you're
ready to commit suicide, because life is so terrible.
By all means eat some Panther Arena first, but I wouldn't do
it unless it was something like that.
But the pissed thing, you know, that even shows up in Native
American teachings in the Ojibwe, there was an Ojibwe, an
elder of the crane Clan of the Ojibwe named key, wady Of quay
Pascal. She wrote a couple of books that
are extremely rare. They used copies sell for $1000.
But in this, she tells the story of Miss Quade.
Oh, and it's these, two brothers ones.
Depressed ones, not the one that isn't disappears and comes back.
And it turns out that he's been eating these red mushrooms with
white spots and he tells them that if they'll drink his urine,
it's been So long to read the actual story but it's says drink
the urine and you'll you'll be happy you won't be sad.
You want me to press like you are.
If you drink this urine, Watson quotes it at one point.
I was totally dismissive of this.
I thought who in the hell is this?
You know, she, what she read Wasson and now she just wants to
claim this for the Native Americans.
No, she's she's dead serious. I mean I haven't found other
tellings of the mosquito story but I found other examples of
Amanita muscaria use. There's one in this book.
Both of these books here Chippewa Customs which the
Chippewa Chippewa is the other pronunciation pronunciation of
Ojibwa G block. Chip waffle.
Is that the try? Think that's was my area to
Michigan or what was that? Maybe they should get in Troy
Michigan Minnesota. The, the Great Lakes region.
Yeah. Yeah, but that's not because we
have a lot of chips in Michigan. There's a lot of Chippewa.
A lot of schools are named Chippewa.
There's a lot of Chippewa stuff. I can see that I think my
screens lagging a little bit, but this is Wisconsin chip
sales, both of those books talk about the use of mnd, damask
area, one for a love potion, another talks about the shaman
who like to burn them and breathe the smoke.
And then there's a third example where, when they die, Die.
They are taking the mushroom powdering, it and mixing it with
that same Vermillion Hunters powder and painting mushrooms on
their face. And this is allegedly how they
paint all of their dead at this time, with, with pili, I the
mushroom caps here and then stems going this way.
So, that's it. That's three examples of Amanita
muscaria through four of them and need a mascara use within
the Ojibwe. I do, when I go Camping is
either Northern Michigan they're everywhere.
You can't walk through the woods that's eating a ton of the
Amanita but yeah I mean I'm just trying to think my experience
though does not Reconcile a lot of what I've read from like the
rigveda. Like if you're saying that Soma
was you know, Amanita, I don't buy.
I don't really make that connection for many more months,
it bonds to Gaba receptor, right?
That's the same alcohol bonds to so, write any it's not that my
experience was this, it wasn't even a Lucinda genic.
It was made me very tired. Almost like a hypnotic and then
maybe Hey sleepy. The only thing I could think
that that my mind goes to is maybe this is because I had very
vivid dreams, I usually don't dream that much because my
cannabis use is absolutely. Yeah, you have drink that
doesn't cause visual that's, that's that was my computer.
There's people telling me. No, no, no.
You got to do it this. So you got your, you haven't
done it, right? So, I keep hearing that and I'm
trying to think, was there something wrong with me or my
biochemist? There is something wrong with
you. No.
But so, but that was my thing. That was my takeaway is it had
very vivid dreams, which were interesting, but not nothing
prophetic or had epiphanies or anything.
Like I do on other tryptamine based psychedelic.
Not what Jung called a big dream, right?
Yeah. Yeah, my experience with it is
always been mild. But with someone like me who
grew up taking, you know, drinking a third of a vial of
acid. When I, you know, and my teens
and taking 20 and 30 grams of cubensis mushrooms.
And teens and 20s, I'm not sure that I would, I'm not sure it
would do that for me because my frame of reference is bigger,
it's bigger. And you know, I know what's
possible with those substances and and I'm skeptical that
Amanita for someone with my history can ever meet that
level. But I'm open, you know, I'm
hoping obviously, I still pick them and I still prepare them.
And my thing, what I like to do is Infuse them in wine and just
sip on it. I read about a ritual.
I think it was in ruk ruk and Hoffman where they were talking
about, who are the peacock worshipers and Iran.
The peacock God I can't, I'll remember the minute, but but
that he claims, that they would go up on the roof of their
house, every morning and take a sip of this wine that's been
infused with these mushrooms. And I have a friend who is
Siberian descends from Siberians.
And he claimed that his grandfather would put the
mushrooms in vodka, they were Russian but they descended from
Siberians He claimed, they would put them in vodka but he would
only take a tiny amount and he would do this every night, but
he didn't say it was a hallucinogen.
He claimed it was a medicine and that's actually how you saw it
marketed and in Germany. Back in the 19th century, you
could buy Amanita muscaria medicines, that are unheard of
now, but they seem to have thought that it had some kind of
a medicinal value almost like with old folks here in the
South. That would drink.
Sassafras tea, you know, sassafras contains safrole,
which is a precursor to MDMA and it was outlawed.
I think, for that reason. The reason that was that the
peacock, I was a Malik that me Ellie killick.
That's the God. But yeah, it's actually a foul
goddamn elect house but the group, The, you see this says,
it's a, yeah, this is Edie's. Is the, the I thought you were
looking for the actually. The Malik and then it's called
the peacock, angel of that. Peacock Angel.
Melek taus is actually an owl but it's but it's confused with
this peacock, if maybe I'm wrong, but I I'm pretty certain.
Melech Taos, is an owl deity. I know moloch is an owl deity.
That's but I don't know if that's the same.
I don't know. I haven't done enough.
I didn't even know about this speak.
I got to look into his room. Yeah, it's the same route but
the melek taus This peacock, Angel is basically Lucifer.
And anybody who's done DMT or high doses of psilocybin,
immediately recognizes the peacocks tail.
It's an Alchemy, it's called caught up of bonus and caught
up. A bonus means, tail of the
peacock. And if you see the tail of the
peacock, in your Alchemy in your work, you know, you've arrived.
That's the last The last sign that you're about to break
through and, and have success with your, with the stone.
If you don't see the peacocks tail, you're not close.
And just so anybody that smokes out and gets all weird.
Lucifer, literally means, you know, Morningstar, you know,
which is Native American deity also, right?
So so before people, if you're religious, before you freak out,
Go look into the origins of Satan, Lucifer.
They're all different and these are just anthropomorphize
concepts of what people see as evil.
However, their Origins are not evil at all.
So it makes no sense. It's almost like it's crazy that
people abide by this stuff so, you know, dogmatically because
apparently none of those people have done any of their homework.
So Go look into the origins, obviously shows up in the Bible.
I think, I think word is Lucifer, huge and Isaiah
Lucifer, and but Lucifer has just kind of Taken on a life of
its own, the whole thing's stupid.
Like I said, I grew up Catholic went to Catholic schools Church
twice a week. I'm a good person.
However there's so many dogmatic religious people.
Yeah, exactly. Somebody put light-bearer
exactly like bear. Dean bringer, Morningstar.
You know, the thing about all of that is again do your homework.
If you want to really do great research, start at the root or
going back to the earliest known reference, whether it's a person
or a passage or whatever and work your way from there.
Because then you're at least going back to the first known
instance of this. So you can look at the
progression and how its evolved and how it was used.
That's doing great research. Search doing bad.
Research is reading just the Bible or just watching a YouTube
video or just you know, watching One documentary and thinking,
you know, all about a subject or something along those lines.
Google is not your friend by the way.
If you want to be a Regal could be good.
Google can be a resource but don't make that your primary
resource now. Go ahead and get ready to get
become poor and broke buying books, because the books that
have anything that's worth reading.
NG in them are going to cost, 70, 150, $250, that's where it's
at right now. What if you can find it in
Barnes & Noble, you don't want to fucking read it, there's
nothing in every someone told me this.
Once that if you can buy it in a store it's a beginner book and
they're right. If it's in a store, it's for
beginners. The the meaty texts that are
going to have this kind of stuff in it.
Get ready to spend 100 to 150 dollars and click on this.
Go follow PD on Facebook right now and Instagram because he's
constantly selling these books that he's already read these
expensive as books. Have shirt and tie them and he's
charging less than what they're worth and they're worth a lot.
So again, follow PD, yeah, follow me.
I post mainly post about things that interest me and the Books.
I'm selling there. If you're interested in buying
books, definitely, definitely follow me because I sell
hundreds every year. In cross-reference things if
you're going to search something on Google also go check other
servers in check, you know, even, you know, I look, there's
stuff wrong with, you know, Chad GPT does isn't always accurate,
especially, with opinion-based things, but I've type some
things into it and it can pull up facts and factual
information, and papers, and references and quotes, and
things like that. So, again, try and get creative
with your research. Spread it around, look at
multiple looking to books. Into ancient texts.
Look into if you look at ancient texts, don't just look at it in
context, but then read every translation you can get because
there might be like. For instance, if you read
Plato's dialogues, you know, whether it's transcribed from
Latin, or ancient, Greek, or whatever.
Some of the words have different meanings, or might have other
multiple meanings and things like that.
So to actually really dive deep into it, they always suggest
that you read. Multiple translations.
So same time, Of a thing. You just cross referencing like
a ton of things here. Yeah, the older.
It is, the more translations you want to read.
I ran into this problem with my the book that's about to come
out on theurgy because you can't really talk about theurgy
without talking about the pre-socratics because what the
theory just did, was re-orientate the direction of
travel prior to Plato, everybody went to the underworld, traveled
to the underworld after Plato, because Plato allegorized And
that underworld Journey as Incarnation as so as if to say
when we fell from Divinity and became in a body that is going
to hell. After that, there's nowhere else
to go. Or as far as we can go, the, the
orientation changes and everybody wants to go up.
But in order to talk about that, Intelligently.
I couldn't just read one translation of Parmenides, I had
to read every translation of Parmenides and even that wasn't
enough I had to get a Greek Lexicon and dictionary and then
start translating it myself. You know the older it is spoil
alert or thinks your senses lie to you Parliament Parmenides has
this You know, he is considered the father of logic.
This is one thing that really fascinates me prior to his
introduction of logic of logos. Everything turned on a pivot of
Mythos. So we take Logic for granted.
We say, we can look at someone in the street and what they're
doing and we can just say without even doing any
calculations we can say. Well, that's that behavior is or
is not logical. Before Parmenides, this wasn't a
thing. What determined the rightness or
wrongness of the behavior was how well it conformed to a
pre-existing myth? What myth are you participating
in? What myth are you embody?
If you're wrong? It was because you weren't in
line with a myth well, Parmenides claims to have gotten
this information from a goddess in the underworld after going
into a trance and traveling to the underworld, I can't think of
any other scenario that would be The direct opposite of logic
that's not logical to go to the underworld and talk to a goddess
and get the laws. Peter Kingsley, famously said
you know, Moses went to the top of Mount Sinai to bring back the
law, but Parmenides went to hell to bring him back.
But the law he brought back was a logic that completely rules
out. Any trip to Hell any goddess,
it's not logical, but And again, we talked about this last time.
I think the loosening Mysteries, Osiris, all these people being
taken to the underworld, this is an allegory for shamanic
experience and it plays out more unveiled I guess in the new
world or mesoamerica, right? It's not as like, like, like
they tear, it became secretive to, but it became secretive.
Once, the Colombians, the Europeans came and Started to
colonize and all that kind of stuff.
Spyro. Spyro Oklahoma.
We mentioned it earlier. Yeah.
You mentioned with the where those seashells are from Spyro,
I believe is our lusus. That's where 90% of these shell
cups show up that test positive for at least datura and Cocina.
The ilex vomitoria. I'm certain more of them test
positive for other plants. The same plants that we tried
those two specifically together, those two compounds, Yeah, yeah,
I go really wild datura. I try I think has very
neurotoxic. I have a child.
So, you know, before my son was born, my youngest son before he
was born. I was pretty adventurous with
what I did and how I did it. But with the datura, I'm very
leery about ingesting it. I actually prefer Yeah, you
showed us last time that white men or whatever.
Appointments this is, if you're going to do datura in datura
grows Everywhere. By the way, it's probably in
your backyard. If you live in the midwest or
out west, it's like Kobe Michaels blend but it's a common
weed that just grows all over the place in the United States.
Yeah, yeah, there are different strains, it shares a lot of
alkaloids with other night shades.
Some of the alkaloids that are in datura are in nicotiana
Rustica and obtuse, Folia some of the it shares, some with
black Nightshade. Remember Leah, before we started
the show, we were talking about opium lettuce.
Opium, lettuce has high Sky amine in it, which is one of the
things that makes. Tira active.
So a lot of these share these alkaloids, but what I was
getting at with Spyro, Spyro, I really believe is our lusus.
So Cahokia was the first really big Mississippian City to appear
and it was able to appear because of climate change, the
climate became such that corn could be grown and someone gave
them a sacred bundle. This is how religions were
passed around beliefs were passed around and what they
called, sacred bundles, patatas. And they received the the maze
pitaka with the maze goddess in it, who is also known as evening
star and Earth, Mother May's mother.
And this allows Cahokia to become the first major American
city. Well, all of the sudden around,
I don't know, I think 14th century.
It's abandoned. They stopped building people
disappear and they don't come back for a long time, but right
around that time, that they disappear, Spyro starts
happening. Moundville starts happening.
These things further south now. Archaeologists know that this
has to do with the little Ice Age, the little Ice Age, caused
a major drought and because they depended.
So heavily on what they receive from that.
At sacred bundle of this maze goddess.
They depended on corn to survive.
They didn't know what to do. They didn't know how to move
forward. Well, the mississippians even
though they were mound. Builders Mounds existed before
them built by the Edina and Hopewell cultures.
What they would do was Return to.
These sites are already sacred and build on top of them,
embellish them, and turn them into other things.
This happened in Spyro Errol and Spiro. the great Mound, there is
called Craig Mound, which is Before Spyros Discovery was
surrounded with Paranormal Activity, one of the woman who
lived there. Aunt, Rachel Brown.
She claimed to have seen her noises that woke her from her
sleep, and she looked out at the mound and there were blue sheets
of Fire coming off of it. And these cats giant cats,
pulling a chariot around in circles on the top strange
stuff. Tough.
They were they were seeing even before they knew what it was,
but this was something before the mississippians got there.
The Hopewell had already buried. All of these Elite people there
and they called that the great Mortuary.
Well, when the mississippians arrived, they kind of flattened
it out, and they built a floor with these.
These polls that were faced North and South.
Now with the Mississippian culture, North, and South means
the realm of the Dead East and West is the realm of Life, the
Milky Way. It's because the Milky Way the
path of souls is on a north-south axis.
So, they built this floor, and then on top of it, built
something that's now called a spirit Lodge, and the spirit
Lodge had these different pipes, pipes, big pipes that were
carved out of Flint out of clay flint, and they are Effigies of
various Supernaturals, various deities in this tradition.
Well, what they eventually realized after studying this
Pawn? Nice kitty.
It's called the ski D Sky Map. It's a like a turtle, looks like
a turtle shell with with spots all over the represent stars and
then it kind of a line moving through it.
The represents the Milky Way James Brown not the fuck, not
the singer, but famous archeologist, Mississippian
archaeologist, James Brown after studying the spirit law, Lodge
in the placement of these items in there.
He realized they're in the exact placement of these
constellations on this Palm, nice, kitty Sky Map, and it
represents they were able to determine through through a
computer program that that reverses the skies and how they
looked through the generations that this was A picture of the
sky at the moment of what they thought was, the moment of
Creation in the, and I believe the 1600s and it was identical
to this. So This Spirit Lodge Which is
where they found, 90%, of the shell cups, that survive that
have debt Tara and this other ilex vomitoria and I'm certain
other compounds in them like Morning Glory black shade and
missive osca. They found them there and Riley
talks about how the great Mortuary represents the
underworld and the spirit Lodge on top represents the heavens.
That's why the deity's are placed there.
He further says, that the drugs smoked through these pipes are
meant to animate them. Just like with theurgy, we have
animated statues. He says, the act of smoking, the
drug through the, through the God, because the pipes are made.
In the Effigy of these Gods, animates them and makes them
present with you during the ritual.
This is this is still persist today with peace pipes that will
be made of Eagle Effigies which are Thunderbirds or bear
Effigies but Mircea. Eliade, for example, he talks
about in illo tempore, which means in that time any ritual
even in masonry and these rituals are meant to take us
back to square, one to Ground Zero before the fall of Man,
when everything was perfect even in masonry, when we're
Initiated. Genesis is recited before we're
brought to light and the blindfold is taken off.
Because that's the creates that were being recreated.
That's the goal of the ritual. And that's what they think.
The spirit Lodge was about its setting up, the spirit Lodge
that represents ground zero for the entire world and they needed
they needed to do this because of this drought situation.
Things had been terrible for 20 or 30 years because of this
little Ice Age trout. People were starving to death.
They just weren't making it there.
So they're their inclination was, let's restart time as how
Eric Singleton puts it. He's, he's the curator at the
national Cowboy & Western Heritage Museum.
And Oklahoma. But he says they needed to
restart time and this is where they find all these cups and
these pipes. My suspicion is that sour
looses. That's where people
mississippians were coming from all over the country.
We know they were because the things to positive, there aren't
from Spyro. None of them are the pipes are
from Cahokia. The shells are from Florida, but
they're all coming to Spiro entering the spirit Lodge for an
experience of participation in Zero Mark, going back to square
one to try and reverse the drought reverse, whatever.
They did that. They and their minds that caused
this. But and that's that's what I'm,
that's one of the main arguments of my book is that?
Yeah, I mean, it's Barbara. That's interesting, right.
Because, you know, the placebo effect.
We don't know much about likes. I even though you look at the
weird stuff that they don't like random number.
Years. And you just wonder how much
intention in belief played and I think that there is like belief
as in like you've done your homework, you've got a true
heart and then belief that you're just using something as
an excuse to be a certain way or go about yourself in a certain
way which is what you see most dogmatic religious people do.
But I think, I think that there's a way to go about that.
That is pure that does have pure intentions and true.
True of heart. But my question was actually, I
was going to ask you before you went into the whole Effigy pipe
thing. I was going to ask you about
that because dr. Little's going on a run right
now where he's just posting crazy amounts.
Effigy pipes on Twitter, what exactly was being smoked out of
it was a just tobacco or tobacco Rustica was that cannabis was
that ended áanotherá seeds like what was being smoked out of
those. So the out of Arkansas There was
what they call smoking tubes, which we would call a Chillum
when they tested those residues all they were able to detect was
tobacco and datura. So we know both of those were
smoked. That's what was mentioned in the
ethnography. I talked about earlier so people
that so you want to dry out the datura and smoke it right.
Right. They were because I know it's
orally active and I've even heard anecdotal stories of
people like cutting down large portions of in their backyard
and getting seat seeped into their like cuts and things like
that Lancia. So the first first time, my wife
and I we found a Bergman see a tree and it was in the the yard
of this shoe store in Tupelo, Mississippi cold, Peggy's shoes.
They're not there anymore. But every year this old lady,
sweet old lady. Would plant the, he's broke man.
See a tree. Trees.
She had the brig Mansa Aria. She has, she had the pink, the
white, the the yellow. Once we realized what those were
we went by and we just started picking flowers and leaves and
you know our plan was to experiment and just see what it
would do. I mean, we were probably picking
those things for five or ten minutes and it became very clear
very fast that I wasn't sure I could drive us home.
I didn't eat anything and smoke anything just from picking them
in those juices soaking in my hands.
I felt like my head was going long and tall and long.
Long and tall. Like I couldn't focus on
anything but that's how, that's how that stuff is used.
Anyway, as a what they call a flying ointment, which is
ointments, which centers around the same plants henbane
Mandrake, datura. Bergman.
What's the one that looks like you posted?
That was a James Joyce Finnegan's way.
There's a man drink. Yeah.
Yeah, that the Mandrake is always depicted as like a
walking, almost like that. Yeah, like a stick figure,
right? Yeah.
It looks like a little the. So that's where we get our idea
for an Alchemy. They call it a homunculus or
homing. Que lo a tiny man in Yes.
Supposedly we've got a homunculus.
I a person or that used to be the thought that that's what it
comes from, a person living up in him.
When he read about the hand of glory and old witchcraft stuff,
the hand of Glory is man drink. It's in the potato family.
Nightshades is a broad family, it includes terrorism, 80's
Tomatoes, May shade eggplant. Yeah, eggplant potatoes, and
actually nightshades are not do. Get your genetic testing done
for things that you should eat or not.
Because there's a lot of people that have issues with
Nightshade. I know, Maurice went to the
doctor and was because he had really bad psoriasis.
Outbreaks, and they said, stay away from nightshades.
Whatever reason. So, interesting.
Yeah. Nightshades are powerful, and it
also shows up in pop. Its there's a tradition and And
European. It's not an American American
mandrake's aren't aren't really active, but they're completely
different species. What about there's Hannah best
was Cannabis used in any of these tribes or Native Americans
Native American. No, no, not that I know of no,
there are things that are considered, cannabis,
surrogates, like wild dagga, and stuff that I've seen claims were
used. But I've not seen any proof of
it. I I'm a big forager.
Anything that grows out here. I'm out every season.
Harvesting what's available? And I've never seen anything
like that. You've never seen wild cannabis
or I found wild tobacco makes you wonder 21 was that brought
over here? You know, why don't we think was
it Native Americans was that Europeans?
Like who brought the who brought the Cannabis?
The Cannabis goes back to Because I know the earliest F
the earliest as it is. Yeah.
The plains of Tibet there is an article written that says it
could go back to. It might have even been
domesticated as long ago as 100,000 years ago.
Maybe even by neanderthals. Yeah.
So right, I believe, I believe it probably was because it's
such a useful plant, even if you're not using it for its
entheogenic properties. It's a food.
The fibers make clothes. I mean it's just you know the
the botanists argue that these plants produce these substances
as a means to protect themselves against use.
But I find that completely a faulty.
I don't agree. I don't think that's what it is.
A good example. Is.
Well, let's take the cicadas. I'm sure you saw the, the
psilocybin cicadas, right? That has psilocybin in it.
They claim that psilocybin mushrooms produce psilocybin,
because they're competing for the same food source with
insects. They both want the feces.
They're growing on cubensis anyway.
And they produce this psilocybin to get the bugs, intoxicated
enough to not worry about eating the poop.
They want to live on, but here's the problem with the cicadas and
there's evidence that it's not just with cicadas, but with
skate, as we know this cordyceps, mushroom, that
infects them. That contained psilocybin makes
them sex-crazed to the degree that they will imitate. 8, the
opposite sex that they are just to have sex with.
Another of the same species you tell me.
Is that to the advantage of the mushroom?
If this thing gets sex-crazed and goes and produces more of
itself and multiplies itself so that more of its things will
come there and eat the same poop.
That's I think, I think nature is more intelligent than that.
And, and I've completely part ways with this modern botanist
argument that It exists to deter.
The insects, if it's going to make them sex-crazed inside,
encourage I've talked about my trip report I took, I think like
four grams, silent darkness and meditated and it showed me.
Yeah, you know, when I do that, I actually started doing that.
Believe it or not. Before I found out about the
heroic dose Terence McKenna even though I bet I've been doing
psychedelics for like 20 years, right?
I've been doing psychedelics for over 20 years and I just found
out about Terence McKenna like four years ago or five years ago
when I started doing this podcast.
So the first book I ever read the very first book now, when I
was a little kid, I was into poetry.
So I remember reading Edgar Allan Poe.
The first book I checked out from the library was book of
Paul Simon's poems. I think I was like six years.
Old. But the first book I ever read
from cover to cover was Terrence McKenna and Dennis McKenna.
I mean, and I told that to Dennis, he's doing this
interviewed me. Not true hallucinations.
Yep, it was true hallucination. Do Lodge Herrera, that that
whole part about trying to recreate the sound from the
Hamas room. That was the mushroom was
created and trying to harmonize with the sound of the launch was
Sam. Yeah the buzz did the buzz and
And then you know the wind blowing noise, you get the wind
blowing noise that makes you squint and Ian like all the time
I get that like yawning is pretty rough, right?
But with his insect, the buzz noise.
So on bicycle day of 2000. 18. I think it was I was struck by
lightning on DMT. I was, I was on LSD had taken
three hits us. We love before we get going.
You were on a bicycle on Alice t on bicycle day.
He got struck by lightning wasn't okay.
LSD. And it was on bicycle day in my
intention was that at midnight? I was going to smoked DMT
because I find that if you smoked DMT from Baseline, it's
so abrasive. It's not comfortable.
It's unbearable for me. But if I smoke it, when I'm
already on LSD, it's almost like I'm just hopping on top of the
mountain. I'm not being thrown.
Grown up there. It's the the abrasiveness goes
away. So when I, when I was doing DMT
at that time, I would do it on LSD.
And I had taken three hits and there was a thunderstorm
happening in the lightning was magnificent.
This magenta purple, kind of thing going on, and I was on the
second floor. Of my apartment and that we have
a balcony, had a balcony and I was out there trying to get a
picture of that lightning and every time it was Flash.
I have to take my picture but I'd never catch it.
You know I would miss it every time.
And so at one point I thought fuck it.
I'm not gonna do this anymore. It's midnight.
It's time to do the DMT and I walked inside and I already had
my pipe ready, I picked it up and I took one hit.
Usually when I do DMT, when I did DMT back, then made it a
point to stay in the seat. Not not to get up and walk
around. But for some reason I got up And
walked out on the balcony and put, I remember putting my hands
on my hips and just kind of looking out watching for a
lightning Flash and I didn't see it.
My wife saw it, the lightning struck the tree in the courtyard
in front of me and I got hit with rebound lightning.
And it didn't, it didn't hurt. All I remember is being
paralyzed. I couldn't move my hands were
stuck on my sides. I remember thinking in that
moment. Did you get that shock feeling
that you get like sometimes when you plug something in and like,
shocks, you can, yeah, I definitely felt the electricity
but it didn't hurt. And I put, I had my hands on my
hips and I remember thinking, I bet I look like Peter Pan with
my like that. So, it was my fault at this
moment. I bet I look Peter Pan and then
I'm starting to leave Peter Pan worth a damn is the movie Hook
bro. Get it right right now.
Yo Rufio that's that's exactly what I'm talking about.
Was yeah. That's yeah, yeah, yeah.
But I'm standing there with my hands stuck to my hips.
I'm paralyzed and I hear this noise coming.
From like behind me somewhere that sounds like an insect at
the time, I didn't think. Oh, this is like, what?
Dennis was talking about. But I heard this noise and it
was very unnerving. I thought, man, I wish that.
I wish that would stop. I don't like that.
My wife later told me it was coming from me.
I was making that sound. This ungodly gurgling.
Buzzing noise. You probably like I have no, I
have no idea. I can't do this day.
I can't remember what it sounded like.
I just remember not liking it, dude, that's crazy.
It's a it's for real. Like I believe the newest wasn't
wasn't bullshitting. There is a, there's a sound you
can make this is like almost like a cicada screaming.
I don't know. I've tried it, bro.
It's you can't. I couldn't I You know, I'm a
musician, your musician, you can match pitch.
It's like a to me, it's like a pinch.
Harmonic that's almost you're unable to recreate in a way.
It's, I don't know how to explain it because it is a, it's
not one tone. I mean, it was it was like two
tones, maybe three tones almost like like to Von throat singing
or something. But but yeah, like the In
throat, singers or whatever. Yep, but false said it was high
wasn't a low sound, it was a Trill you know.
Yeah. Why I was going to say about
that trip report though in the silent Darkness I was kind of
shown it was not like I don't know, people say download I hate
saying download I don't know what to call it but you feel
like you're getting information from somewhere else outside of
yourself, not that you're coming up with it, but that it's coming
to you and I was this is what came to me, this was always the
case. This was in 2000 with just here,
you're just aware of the process.
This was from eleven Seventeen to twenty.
I actually have a trip Journal. I started keeping actually found
ones from high school to a there is a bunch of years.
I forgot to do it, but this one set, this came to me that
mushrooms might get out give off psilocybin so that people have
reverence for them. And we do not destroy them or
the planet or anything predatory to him and says, you know,
eating them could Save the Planet.
It is a technology and makes you more empathetic.
Now, that's not true for everybody.
Obviously, we like you mentioned earlier, people are assholes
everywhere. It doesn't matter if you're into
psychedelics or you're a mason or this or that it, you know,
assholes are assholes that are everywhere.
Unfortunately. But that was the thing that I
was pondering because I've was always under the assumption.
Same thing. You said that like, maybe
psilocybin was evolutionarily Ed by fungi to put, you know, keep
insects and what ants and whatever away.
I don't believe that the power that it has, what it does to, we
evolved alongside of these things.
And then we're actually evolutionarily closer to fungi
that we are actually, the plant kingdom, believe it, or not,
that's true. And actually fungi are closer.
I should say that that way fungi are closer to us evolution,
Eerily than fungi is to plants, so I know it's the same thing,
but but man's relationship with the mushroom, particularly the
cubensis. Variety.
You can't have cubensis without cattle and you can't have
cubensis without cattle that are fed corn.
Man is the fourth part and that quadratic equation if you so I
invite you to study the history of corn, just look at corn, wild
corn, doesn't look like the corn.
We know, it'll have a few grains, a few kernels of corn on
it. In order for it to be full of a
full corn cob, like what we're used to Fires an entire field of
these things growing because every single grain of pollen
that gets caught on the statement of that other plant
becomes a corn kernel. Every single kernel on the corn,
cob used to be a single grain of pollen. it takes a man to till
the field and to plant them to get those numbers that would
provide What we call Corn now. Even traditional corn to like
mac Mesoamerican Maize or whatever, has like half to a
third of the amount of kernels on it.
If you look at, that's right. The amount of kernels are
determined by the pollen, available to the field, to the
plans. Now, if you have cattle, we know
that psilocybin, be cubensis, mushrooms grow on the feces of
bovines, But they won't grow on them unless you feed them corn.
Grain fed cattle. Even, that's not enough.
You have to build a fence around them or tie a rope to them to a
tree so that they'll shit in the same place over and over.
To make the soil able capable of of maintaining, of supporting
the mycelial network necessary to produce the fruiting bodies
that we call mushrooms. And induce these experiences,
this is a complex symbiotic, quadratic relationship between
man corn. Mushrooms and cows.
Both mean doesn't have to be cows and growing Ryan.
Oh poop. And growing pig poop, you know.
But he has do they grow on those other poop?
Yes, they absolutely. Yeah.
John W, Allen, famous amateur Mycologist.
I don't know. Maybe he's a professional
Mycologist. I think he's an amateur
Mycologist but he picked some on elephant.
Excuse me, rhino poop. And in Thailand, or somewhere
wherever, wherever the hell he is, I'm not sure maybe it is
elephant poop. I think grows on both as long as
their grain fed, but I'm not an expert in that area.
I could be wrong. I know they grow on.
You're not an expert on poops. Get out makes bird own cow poo.
Yeah, when I was 15, I went to juvenile hall for picking,
mushrooms out of a Out of a judge's field.
I didn't know he was a judge rather never been in that field.
But yeah, I I get a long history of cow field picking Yeah, I
might never I've never done that but I've bought enough mushrooms
on the fish and dead lots and jam band.
Lots that I'm sure something I've eaten scum off some poop.
Well I so my family lives on a cow field like it's from way
before I was born. My parents were born and take
County Mississippi and What is now a cow field?
Where I pick? My mushrooms used to be a slave
cemetery and when we go out there, we clean up the
gravestones. We set them back up because I
get knocked over by the cows. But I took some Spore prints and
sent them to folks, and Detroit when Detroit got decriminalized.
And they wanted a strain name, I said, well there's their
cubensis and they said know what strain is it.
So I didn't know what to say. I said they're Delta Blues from
Mississippi is the delta blues and now that's like a that's
kind of a household name, among Colorado.
Yeah, psychedelic groups. But That's how available they
are here. As long as those cows are fed
grain corn, then it's only a matter of time before some
spores, get in the field and we average I mean I haven't picked
and five or six years and I've since my since my son was old
enough to need me here with him every day, he's on the autism
spectrum. I homeschool him.
But prior to that we would average 10, 11 pounds dried
every year out of that field now that's it's it's a lot but it's
not like penis envy. No, no.
You like you said being I think you said last time you need like
two times the amount of normal dried or something like that.
At least at least yeah. So if I take a, if I take 20
grams of Of the mushrooms. I pick.
It's closer to a quarter 10 grams of something, like, penis
envy. So I like to, I like to make
that point. Because when people hear me say,
I take 20 and 30 grams, I'm not taking 20 and 30 grams of penis
envy. If I had penis envy, I probably
would not exceed a quarter. So obviously, I mean, there's a
backstory to the penis envy ones if anybody's Did Hamilton Morris
has a podcast where he talks to the sky.
I think it seems like Richard Gutierrez or something.
And what he did was he took the original Spore prints from the
Amazonian celosia. Be that Terrence and Dennis
brought back and the 70s from not sure era from latter era and
he took a lot of the went to watch a rarity to find kou.
Hey, right DMT. But yeah, got that track by
those mushrooms, right? And they got sidetracked by the
mushroom because there's just fields of them and they're like,
oh well whatever what? Let's take a look at.
So, anyways, they brought those back and kind of, you know,
aside from wasps and going down and meeting with María.
Sabina. I would say that that them
coming back and bringing it back and kind of started this whole
mushroom Revolution, psychedelic revolution in a way.
Anyways, to bring my point around though, is that this guy
took the Spore prints from those and something happened, where I
saw this abort that looked like really weird or something like
that, so he started cultivating this abort.
And actually penis. Envy is this abort of those
amazonians and then they found out that they're like, super,
super potent, so, penis, envy from what I understand in my own
experiences, taking lots of different types of psilocybin
over the years and everything penis.
And he's kind of the only one that's really distinguish or
terms of like dosage. We're kind of what you're
saying. Maybe golden teachers to but
penis, envy is by far the strongest.
You talk to anybody. It's not even a question is.
Yeah. So, and when you say abort, it's
not like aborts on, on a cow pie when you pick them up the abort
sir, after it produces, its main flush and you pick those, it'll
produce some smaller ones that will get any bigger and die off.
That's and maybe I'm wrong. I don't think that's what he
did. I think he was cultivating them
on a gar. In the problem with mushroom
spores that you pick in the wild is they're not alone.
They have other fungi. Yeah, this guy was a, this guy
was a. I forget, I don't know if he was
a biologist, he was not doing. He was doing this in a lab, he
was not doing this on cow. Pat?
Yeah. So he that's what I'm saying.
It's not that they were aborts aborts or technically the little
guys that you don't use because the mushroom decide.
Ides all my energy as working here and I like this these these
little ones aren't necessary. Like McKenna said that the
mushrooms aren't the hallucinogen there.
The sex organs of the hallucinogen.
So the abort sir, like flaccid penises that don't get to
ejaculate what he was doing the gutti.
I mean I don't know if that's his name I can't remember either
but what I'm looking it up I'm looking at Altuve, do I believe
he was cultivating them on agar which allows spores to grow in
sections like a map. So if you have one bacteria, it
will be maybe to the Northwest Quadrant quadrant of your disc.
But you can tell, what is the mycelial network of the
cubensis? It looks hairy and it'll stand
up taller and using ask Scalpel, they'll cut that section out and
just grow that section on a new a car.
And that's what allows what creates different strains.
Now, you've got strains. Like, have you seen the blobs
That look they're just monstrous and yeah blah like fish fins.
If you go on my buddy Lee zap DMT world, there's tons of
people with all sorts of different, you know, I'm sure
anybody that's if you're on, it's hard though, because they
got rid of a lot of that stuff on my minute.
A lot of the main social media is like, you can't do any that
stuff up like Instagram or anything anymore.
You have to go to some of these forums.
There's, you know. What's it called?
What's that mushroom form online?
I forget the name of it. Murray sure Murray.
Yep. But yeah you know I guess it's
all over read it too but yeah they're cracking down on all
that stuff online. You can't really well.
I mean the other thing is I do get spammed, I get spammed with
like tons of people trying to sell and Source shit online.
It's like dude, get that shit off my Pate like ridiculous, you
know, like I can't come, I can't comment on a YouTube video
without it being followed us. And yeah.
Yeah, no spores up here with it. It's like we love we love these
things. And obviously we're trying to
push this thing forward, but that's not helping anybody.
In fact, you know, who knows if they're cops or whatever the
fuck's going on to. So like I said earlier, I don't
I mean, I don't, this ain't free energy.
I mean, I don't believe it's for everyone.
It's it's it's it's a it's an initiated thing I mean not
everyone will agree with me but I think very much like ancient
indigenous people. You're not a man until other men
past you into manhood. That I feel like that's true.
Also of psychedelic States, you can take them by yourself all
you want, but there's an initiated mode of taking them
that bypasses that need 20. Let's figure this out.
Let's see what this does guess what?
There are people who have been doing it for eons, and passing
it down and have asked that question and it's no longer
relevant. That's it.
That's really how I think about. These territories.
Yeah, and it will, if I don't know if anybody's interested, it
doesn't say his name in the thing.
I think it's Richard something. I don't know, it's called the
true story of the penis, envy mushroom.
It's on Hamilton's, pharmaco Hamilton, Morris podcast.
It's on Spotify. You know, they go through the
whole thing. Everything we were just talking
about, even he talks about other people trying to pass off his
work, as their own, like some guy named mushroom, John, who I
guess is prevalent. The psychedelic, mushroom
Pantheon, who he who steals everybody else's ideas
apparently? So yeah, I don't know, but yeah,
fascinating stuff. Let's wrap it up here, dude.
We've been going for two and a half hours.
I know you and I have to still attend to something else here
for a few minutes. So we're going to keep doing
this and yeah, I don't know. Once twice a month, whatever
PD's down for obviously we do. - Cape episodes wondered once or
twice a week so whatever you want to do.
But I feel like this was a great first episode with all the
Native American stuff and just putting it out there right now.
Miss Alaska is PD. So if you hear anybody else
talking about it, please reach out to me or him.
Let us know because that's bullshit because I know he's
been talking about this for a while.
It's part of his research going forward, and I wanted to get
this on record, it's on record here.
So, if you again, if you hear anybody talking about it, please
let us know. Because this is groundbreaking
stuff and he puts a lot of time into this to have the vultures
come in and, you know, pick at stuff, like they tend to do so.
Thank you, Mike. Yeah, of course.
And yeah, that's it. Check out PD's books,
alchemically, stoned and angels in Vermillion.
The links are down below. PD has a Facebook group, which I
am a part of great stuff. Again, if you're interested in
all those books and stuff, we were talking about earlier,
follow PD on either Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, one of
those. I'm sure you'll be able to find
some of the stuff he's posting that he's recently read and
trying to sell or Whatever. And yeah, I think, oh, please
check out lie again. Leah was on the show earlier.
She had to dip out. She's got to be up early for
school. So, check out at Lea, Prime on
Twitter. Also, she does have a podcast
called The Invisible night school.
She does on YouTube, check that out.
But her websites down below. And the best way to support
mind, Escape is to click on the link, tree, link down below.
We have our documentary. Just premiering March 10 through
12 that the Roswell UFO Expo, that is coming up here in a
couple weeks pumped for it. I will be speaking virtually,
unfortunately, I'm a unable to make it but I will be speaking
there virtually. And again, shout out to Toby and
Shane follow both of them. I've been links down below and
what else? Oh, yeah.
We did a patreon segment with PD.
And he was on two episodes ago. So if you want to, you know, you
were interested in more of the esoteric, I can ancient stuff we
talked way more about that on that episode.
Last episode, we had Andrew gal more on.
That was a fantastic episode as well and I'm just trying to
think, what else? Yeah.
Cool merch and emerge store. Yeah, and check out the the
trailer. I'm going to play the trailer
actually as we exit out of here for the documentary and it's
coming down to the wire it's coming together actually.
So I'm very I needed to see how this thing turns out.
See people's reactions to it. You never know when you put
yourself out there and put these ideas out there, how people are
going to respond, but we wanted to do.
We wanted to make a UFO psychedelic.
Combat combo, that is for people that are into that stuff.
There's a lot of crossover there.
So and we were just talking about true hallucinations.
There's a quote, Terrence says in that book that somehow UFOs
are tangled up into this psychedelic mystery.
You know. So that was My inspiration for
this is, you know, bringing this is something we've been talking
about since the beginning of this podcast is those two things
and how they cross over. So - yeah, shout out to Dennis.
Shout out to our IP Terrence, you huge inspiration, and yeah.
Oh check out, check out our other podcasts, the Roswell UFO.
Symposium we just did two great episodes on there with me.
Toby and Shane we had John Burroughs who is one of the
experiencers from the The rendlesham forest incident which
is one of the most famous UFO incidences and he had physical
stuff, you know, that he John McCain actually had to
declassify his medical records to get him help because he was
in bad shape after that, whole thing, so crazy.
And then we also had James Fox, who's the director of the
phenomenon and most recently moment of contact.
So go check out that stuff, the Roswell UFO symposium.
Hey, and yeah, I think what we'll wrap it up here.
Again, this will be an ongoing series.
Will pick a different psychedelic topic next time.
But I really appreciated, PD sharing, his missile mosca,
hypothesis, and his different research, and theories into all
this Native American Research that he's doing.
Which is incredible. Shout-out to dr.
Greg Little who's also in our documentary, oddly enough.
And yeah, that's the things coming together here.
So listen, we love everybody. Stay safe out there and we'll
catch you next time. There you go.
Is it real? Or is it gone?
That's what you're asking me. I still to this day, can't find
any rational explanation for what I saw.
Extremely intelligent apparently, highly Advanced
hyper technological be, I think that We just don't look at the
perception of reality in the right way.
Yet he got very close to the point that I can see just one
big light and then it stopped and then it shot up in the sky,
you know, you know you're not dreaming but you wonder how real
any of it really is? It dawned on me it was real this
this took place but then I still didn't do anything with it.
Never I said anything to anybody, there is some
mind-altering aspect to these UFO encounters.
A lot of people get a sense of missing.
Time, I noticed that these three stars were kind of in a
formation. It was a triangular formation
condensed into entities or beings that you interact with
who are sentient the chemicals which are going into our brain
are making the conscious archetypes cover like how things
evolve from pure energy to matter.
Definitely was kind of a paradigm shifting moment.
As we continue to evolve in our own Consciousness, we will
perceive of new modes of interpretation, but that may be
dependent upon how this supposed phenomenon reveals itself to us,
and sure why we discredit The Human Experience.
When it's not in alignment with our current belief system, it's
important to consider that one. We don't really understand.
Timelines do under the influence of psychedelics, they all
attached to the reality of some other realm we call it.
The Paranormal, doesn't matter what you call it, spiritual
realm, Supernatural, metaphysical, doesn't matter.
The fact that we're essentially vibrates and energy in a sense
and the when this experience is over that, that particular
energy transforms and doesn't die because it can't buy fills
me with a lot of comfort that there is something else after
this so-called Here and Now, They show you how much of your
reality is subjective and fragile and capable of being
influenced by a psychedelic drug.
It's only from a scientific background, you come up with
some Asians that range from geomagnetic through atmosphere
to something that's physical in nature.
There's a lot more out there that we don't know than we do
know. So the entire system the human
body is effectively a stimulation response machine, I
think something's here, I don't know what it is.
I don't know where it's from. It could be extraterrestrials
Tell it made a full rotation and then it just hit an insane speed
and just shot up straight into the atmosphere.
I think that there's compelling evidence that psychedelics have
played a significant role in human evolution over a long
period of time. The owl view of reality.
The reality we experience with day-to-day basis, seems to be
this very, very thin slice of a something far larger and far
more as within.
So, without From UFOs to DMT.