1 00:00:16,720 --> 00:00:21,720 Welcome to Mind Escape. Are you ready? 2 00:00:24,960 --> 00:00:28,800 Are you ready to escape your mind? 3 00:00:49,240 --> 00:00:52,520 All right, folks, welcome back to Mind Escape. 4 00:00:52,520 --> 00:00:56,080 I am your host, Mike. It's been a little bit, you 5 00:00:56,080 --> 00:00:58,800 know, it's been a few months. I apologize about that. 6 00:00:58,800 --> 00:01:04,440 Life comes up, had a quick vacation, work stuff, you know, 7 00:01:04,480 --> 00:01:07,920 things pop up. But we're back in action here. 8 00:01:07,920 --> 00:01:11,280 And I'm joined by friend of the show Laura Taboni, who runs the 9 00:01:11,280 --> 00:01:13,280 Megalith Hunter channel on YouTube. 10 00:01:13,280 --> 00:01:15,880 Please go check that out. And you change your name on 11 00:01:15,880 --> 00:01:17,480 Instagram. What's the name on Instagram 12 00:01:17,480 --> 00:01:20,400 now? Mediterranean Mystique. 13 00:01:20,840 --> 00:01:23,440 Mediterranean Mystique, I like that one too. 14 00:01:24,800 --> 00:01:26,760 I couldn't find you for a second on on Instagram. 15 00:01:26,760 --> 00:01:28,560 I was like, where what, what happened to? 16 00:01:28,560 --> 00:01:31,080 Did she take her? And then I'm like, Oh no, she 17 00:01:31,080 --> 00:01:32,360 just changed the name a little bit. 18 00:01:34,520 --> 00:01:38,280 But yeah, go check those out if you're looking for masters of 19 00:01:38,280 --> 00:01:40,600 rhetoric. I have pulled it down from all 20 00:01:40,600 --> 00:01:42,880 the Mind Escape stuff because I'm just creating it as a 21 00:01:42,880 --> 00:01:46,800 separate entity. There is a Masters of Rhetoric 22 00:01:46,800 --> 00:01:48,680 YouTube channel that's separate now. 23 00:01:49,800 --> 00:01:56,320 There's also a Instagram page and a Twitter or X page. 24 00:01:56,320 --> 00:02:01,160 You can go check those out. And I will be uploading episodes 25 00:02:01,160 --> 00:02:02,960 bi weekly. The first one's already up 26 00:02:02,960 --> 00:02:04,360 there. I kind of tweaked things a 27 00:02:04,360 --> 00:02:07,400 little bit as well. And again, the best way to 28 00:02:07,400 --> 00:02:10,840 support Mind Escape is just to click the link tree link and 29 00:02:10,840 --> 00:02:13,200 we've got everything on there. So go check that out. 30 00:02:14,680 --> 00:02:16,960 But without further ado, welcome back on Laura. 31 00:02:16,960 --> 00:02:20,400 How are you? Hi Mike, thanks for having me 32 00:02:20,400 --> 00:02:22,240 back. I'm good thank you. 33 00:02:22,720 --> 00:02:26,040 Also haven't been doing too many videos lately but I'm trying to 34 00:02:26,040 --> 00:02:30,480 make more effort now. I did change my Instagram name, 35 00:02:30,760 --> 00:02:34,920 the reason being I've kind of run out of megaliths to post. 36 00:02:34,920 --> 00:02:38,280 I wasn't travelling very much and I'd pretty much been to all 37 00:02:38,280 --> 00:02:43,560 the ones where I live. So I thought when I do travel, I 38 00:02:43,560 --> 00:02:49,240 take so many other pictures like Roman sites, all sorts medieval 39 00:02:49,240 --> 00:02:51,600 castles. And I thought well, why don't I 40 00:02:51,640 --> 00:02:53,600 make it into more of a travel Instagram. 41 00:02:53,600 --> 00:02:58,120 So the focus of my YouTube is ancient history. 42 00:02:58,160 --> 00:03:00,920 But I tried to make my Instagram into more of a Travel Channel 43 00:03:01,360 --> 00:03:03,640 and focus mostly on the Mediterranean because I travel 44 00:03:03,640 --> 00:03:06,560 around the Mediterranean a lot. But so that's why I call it 45 00:03:06,560 --> 00:03:09,200 Mediterranean Mystique. I'm not sure it's working now. 46 00:03:09,200 --> 00:03:12,880 The Christmas not great at the minute but that's the reason 47 00:03:13,080 --> 00:03:17,120 behind that change so I can still be found there. 48 00:03:17,640 --> 00:03:20,080 No, I, I like it. And like I said, I mean, things 49 00:03:20,080 --> 00:03:21,600 come up. I know you've got a little one 50 00:03:21,600 --> 00:03:25,160 now I've got a little one and you know, it's just life. 51 00:03:25,160 --> 00:03:28,480 Stuff happens. And between that and, you know, 52 00:03:28,480 --> 00:03:31,480 towards the end, before I took a little bit of a break here, I 53 00:03:31,480 --> 00:03:37,240 did a cool episode with Sam Wolfe on, you know, philosophy 54 00:03:37,240 --> 00:03:39,560 and psychedelics and things like that on his new book. 55 00:03:39,560 --> 00:03:44,240 But even previous to that, I was doing more just like critiquing 56 00:03:44,600 --> 00:03:46,400 other stuff and I didn't like where that was going. 57 00:03:46,400 --> 00:03:51,440 I want to get back to just stuff I'm interested in and less focus 58 00:03:51,440 --> 00:03:54,120 on other people and what they're doing and things like that, 59 00:03:54,280 --> 00:03:57,120 because that's not really what Mind Escape was meant to be 60 00:03:57,120 --> 00:03:59,680 anyways. And I've said my piece and all 61 00:03:59,680 --> 00:04:01,120 that stuff. I know you kind of feel the 62 00:04:01,120 --> 00:04:04,480 same. All the drama of the alternative 63 00:04:04,480 --> 00:04:08,000 and fringe sciences and things like that. 64 00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:11,640 And you know, it's fun. We'll continue to talk about 65 00:04:11,640 --> 00:04:14,560 some of this stuff, but at the same time it's like, I think 66 00:04:15,840 --> 00:04:18,839 just the drama is just so played out and doesn't get anybody 67 00:04:18,839 --> 00:04:21,839 anywhere and it's just people making money pretty much. 68 00:04:23,040 --> 00:04:28,760 Yeah, 100%. The the rage bait culture online 69 00:04:28,760 --> 00:04:32,400 is kind of insane. And I think it's there in every, 70 00:04:33,040 --> 00:04:37,360 every kind of sector, let's say. So you have it in alternative 71 00:04:37,360 --> 00:04:38,640 history, but you have it everywhere. 72 00:04:40,120 --> 00:04:44,200 I remember years ago seeing, and I'm sure they still do this, but 73 00:04:44,200 --> 00:04:46,480 it was like some celebrity gossip thing. 74 00:04:46,800 --> 00:04:51,320 And they were like saying, bring the tea, let's talk about 75 00:04:51,320 --> 00:04:53,440 whatever this beauty Blogger said. 76 00:04:53,440 --> 00:04:57,040 And then another beauty Blogger weighed in on the other beauty 77 00:04:57,040 --> 00:04:59,160 Blogger drama. And I thought, do people 78 00:04:59,160 --> 00:05:02,240 actually watch this? But then when I got into 79 00:05:02,240 --> 00:05:05,040 YouTube, I realized it's there in every sector. 80 00:05:05,760 --> 00:05:09,600 There's always drama. Yeah, you got to bring the tea. 81 00:05:09,800 --> 00:05:11,720 If you want that money, you got to bring the tea. 82 00:05:12,640 --> 00:05:14,080 But. We could change that, right, 83 00:05:14,080 --> 00:05:17,520 start these arguments. Obviously the other side have to 84 00:05:17,520 --> 00:05:20,600 respond because they don't want to just get trashed online. 85 00:05:21,000 --> 00:05:24,200 So it turns into quite yeah. And then and then there's the 86 00:05:24,200 --> 00:05:28,240 problem is there's never any resolution to it because when 87 00:05:28,240 --> 00:05:31,320 people get their views from the rage, they're going to keep 88 00:05:31,720 --> 00:05:35,200 raging and baiting and so that they make money. 89 00:05:35,640 --> 00:05:42,080 So I do think it's a bit of a never ending cycle, but it's not 90 00:05:42,080 --> 00:05:44,400 just. It's just exhausting, you know, 91 00:05:44,400 --> 00:05:46,000 like every. Sphere. 92 00:05:46,120 --> 00:05:48,720 Yeah, and, and everybody that I was critiquing kind of got a 93 00:05:48,720 --> 00:05:52,880 little bit of a dose of karma without me even intervening at 94 00:05:52,880 --> 00:05:54,000 all anyway, you know what I'm saying? 95 00:05:54,000 --> 00:05:56,720 So it's like I can just watch it play out as opposed to 96 00:05:57,080 --> 00:06:00,440 participating in it if I need, you know, that kind of a thing. 97 00:06:00,440 --> 00:06:03,680 But yeah, I just. Let's talk about real research. 98 00:06:03,720 --> 00:06:05,200 I mean, there's so much, actually. 99 00:06:05,200 --> 00:06:08,320 The thing is, there's so many really interesting things so 100 00:06:08,400 --> 00:06:11,800 going on in the world. So if we leave Atlantis alone 101 00:06:11,800 --> 00:06:17,240 for a second or whatever else is being chatted about online, the 102 00:06:17,240 --> 00:06:21,640 real research that's going on is always opening up really new 103 00:06:22,400 --> 00:06:25,880 interesting chronologies. So one of the biggest stories to 104 00:06:25,880 --> 00:06:30,680 come out of the Maltese islands where I live in the recent, in 105 00:06:30,680 --> 00:06:34,480 the past couple of weeks is they found a Mesolithic site. 106 00:06:35,800 --> 00:06:43,120 Now Malta up until then was thought to have been inhabited 107 00:06:43,240 --> 00:06:46,200 firstly during the early Neolithic by farmers that 108 00:06:46,200 --> 00:06:50,440 travelled over from Sicily. These farmers stayed on the 109 00:06:50,440 --> 00:06:53,640 island for a while. Then there appears to have been 110 00:06:54,120 --> 00:06:57,440 a period where the island was the islands were empty, called 111 00:06:57,440 --> 00:07:01,800 the 5th Millennium Hiatus. And then another wave of people 112 00:07:01,800 --> 00:07:05,360 came in, probably also from Sicily, judging by the the 113 00:07:05,360 --> 00:07:11,360 appearance of the pottery. And they eventually became the 114 00:07:12,480 --> 00:07:15,320 megalith built as the temple people, the people that built 115 00:07:15,320 --> 00:07:19,200 these enormous megalithic monuments on Malta, of which 116 00:07:19,200 --> 00:07:22,440 there were probably 100 originally. 117 00:07:22,440 --> 00:07:24,960 I mean, the traces of so many that have been found and 118 00:07:24,960 --> 00:07:29,320 obviously several are still extant in pretty good condition 119 00:07:29,320 --> 00:07:33,760 for their age and are UNESCO World Heritage sites. 120 00:07:34,640 --> 00:07:39,880 So it's interesting because they're very unique in their 121 00:07:39,880 --> 00:07:43,400 appearance. And it would appear that it was 122 00:07:43,400 --> 00:07:48,720 people coming by sea from Sicily that originally that developed 123 00:07:48,720 --> 00:07:53,960 this this architecture. What we didn't have in the 124 00:07:53,960 --> 00:07:56,680 archaeological record were hunter gatherers. 125 00:07:57,200 --> 00:08:02,000 There were a few people had put forward the idea before they had 126 00:08:02,000 --> 00:08:03,360 suggested Neanderthals were here. 127 00:08:04,080 --> 00:08:07,400 But the the evidence just really wasn't there. 128 00:08:07,400 --> 00:08:11,040 It did end up becoming a big one of the kind of online dramas and 129 00:08:11,040 --> 00:08:13,680 there was a lot of people saying it was a conspiracy and a cover 130 00:08:13,680 --> 00:08:16,400 up. That the Graham it was in Graham 131 00:08:16,400 --> 00:08:19,720 Hancock's show the 2. Neanderthal 2. 132 00:08:20,600 --> 00:08:23,960 The Neanderthal molas, that's what those, So they found some 133 00:08:23,960 --> 00:08:29,720 molas in a cave and for many reasons it just didn't check 134 00:08:29,720 --> 00:08:34,360 out. But nobody ever thought it was a 135 00:08:34,360 --> 00:08:37,960 weird suggestion per SE. There's no reason to cover it up 136 00:08:37,960 --> 00:08:41,960 because there was a land bridge with Sicily at the time in the 137 00:08:41,960 --> 00:08:44,640 Paleolithic. And there's every reason why 138 00:08:44,640 --> 00:08:48,920 people, there's lots of Paleolithic sites on Sicily. 139 00:08:49,280 --> 00:08:51,560 So there's no reason why hunter gatherers wouldn't have made 140 00:08:51,560 --> 00:08:53,120 their way to Malta, but they didn't. 141 00:08:53,160 --> 00:08:55,560 There's just they didn't at that time. 142 00:08:55,560 --> 00:08:57,560 There's no evidence for that in the Paleolithic. 143 00:08:58,280 --> 00:09:00,560 Moving across, walking across the land bridge. 144 00:09:01,440 --> 00:09:03,080 But so there was the Neanderthal idea. 145 00:09:03,080 --> 00:09:07,640 There was also people saying that these cave paintings, there 146 00:09:07,640 --> 00:09:10,680 was some cave paintings in. So this cave used to be publicly 147 00:09:10,680 --> 00:09:12,640 accessible, but you couldn't go deep into it. 148 00:09:12,640 --> 00:09:18,960 The backs part of it was cut off and the, but there was rumours 149 00:09:18,960 --> 00:09:20,680 that there were cave paintings in it. 150 00:09:21,240 --> 00:09:24,880 Somebody did check it out at some point a long time ago, 151 00:09:24,880 --> 00:09:28,800 maybe 20-30 years ago. And they did an analysis and 152 00:09:28,800 --> 00:09:32,960 they were, I think a scholar from from Italy. 153 00:09:33,960 --> 00:09:38,360 And they said it does appear that they are hung to gatherer 154 00:09:38,360 --> 00:09:41,560 paintings, but with no artifacts or any other information to go 155 00:09:41,560 --> 00:09:45,160 with it, it was hard to say. So recently another 156 00:09:45,160 --> 00:09:49,200 investigation was carried out by another team of archaeologists 157 00:09:49,720 --> 00:09:52,560 and they went to the these this same cave. 158 00:09:52,560 --> 00:09:56,520 They they traced the paintings that had been talked about 159 00:09:56,520 --> 00:10:03,080 previously and they found that they are all modern except for 160 00:10:03,080 --> 00:10:05,120 one. But it was too damaged to really 161 00:10:05,120 --> 00:10:07,040 say either way. Like how modern? 162 00:10:08,760 --> 00:10:11,160 Like 100 years ago, just modern graffiti. 163 00:10:11,600 --> 00:10:14,560 Gotcha. So it was. 164 00:10:15,360 --> 00:10:17,880 Yeah. So there was never any true 165 00:10:17,920 --> 00:10:20,040 evidence. And I have talked on my channel 166 00:10:20,040 --> 00:10:23,360 quite a bit about the Neanderthal controversy and the 167 00:10:23,360 --> 00:10:26,560 molars. And I mean, even if they were 168 00:10:26,560 --> 00:10:32,360 found, so there were the the people that suggested that they 169 00:10:32,360 --> 00:10:35,840 were Neanderthal molars said that, OK, so it wasn't just 170 00:10:35,840 --> 00:10:37,760 about the appearance of the molar themselves. 171 00:10:37,760 --> 00:10:39,920 Weren't they under like layers or connected to like a 172 00:10:39,920 --> 00:10:42,360 stalagmite or something? Like that exactly, it was to do 173 00:10:42,360 --> 00:10:46,200 with the layer as well. They were in a layer where Ice 174 00:10:46,200 --> 00:10:50,840 Age fauna were found. However, and the obviously the 175 00:10:51,200 --> 00:10:54,160 Malta wasn't covered in ice during the Ice Age, but the 176 00:10:54,160 --> 00:10:56,880 land, the sea levels were lower. It was connected to Sicily by a 177 00:10:56,880 --> 00:10:59,520 land bridge. So fauna did make its way here 178 00:10:59,520 --> 00:11:02,760 if even if humans didn't. So it would seem that these 179 00:11:02,760 --> 00:11:08,280 molars were in that layer, but this layer was 10 to 18,000 180 00:11:08,280 --> 00:11:11,040 years ago. So that's still too modern for 181 00:11:11,040 --> 00:11:13,520 Neanderthals. So there's kind of a lot wrong 182 00:11:13,520 --> 00:11:15,000 with it. There's a lot wrong with the 183 00:11:15,000 --> 00:11:17,840 idea and you need more, you need more evidence, right? 184 00:11:17,880 --> 00:11:21,960 So overall, the general consensus was hunter gatherers 185 00:11:21,960 --> 00:11:24,040 did not come here in the Paleolithic, and that's still 186 00:11:24,040 --> 00:11:27,520 the general consensus. But a Mesolithic site has been 187 00:11:27,520 --> 00:11:29,440 found. And during the Mesolithic, the 188 00:11:29,440 --> 00:11:31,040 sea levels were the same as today. 189 00:11:31,040 --> 00:11:36,360 So this means that these hunter gatherers came from Sicily via 190 00:11:36,360 --> 00:11:39,520 boat. And that's also a really big 191 00:11:39,520 --> 00:11:44,280 deal because that is thus far thought to be the longest 192 00:11:44,280 --> 00:11:48,400 Mediterranean journey hunter gatherers made, because in other 193 00:11:48,480 --> 00:11:52,400 islands they were closer to the mainland or to other islands, so 194 00:11:52,400 --> 00:11:54,000 they could island top or whatever. 195 00:11:54,360 --> 00:11:56,160 Here. It would appear that to have 196 00:11:56,160 --> 00:11:59,080 been quite difficult to get here in a dugout canoe at that time. 197 00:11:59,920 --> 00:12:03,320 So we're talking like about 100 kilometers and it would have 198 00:12:03,320 --> 00:12:07,320 meant travelling during the net day and travelling during the 199 00:12:07,320 --> 00:12:08,960 night. So they must have had some 200 00:12:08,960 --> 00:12:11,680 knowledge of navigation by the stars. 201 00:12:13,480 --> 00:12:18,360 Yeah, that's interesting. And as you mentioned too, for 202 00:12:18,360 --> 00:12:21,680 people that don't know you, you did mention it, but you live on 203 00:12:21,680 --> 00:12:24,160 Malta. The first few episodes we had 204 00:12:24,160 --> 00:12:26,840 you out and we discussed a lot of the Maltese sites. 205 00:12:28,760 --> 00:12:33,360 G Gantia, Was it Menagera? Is that how you pronounce? 206 00:12:33,840 --> 00:12:38,440 That Niger, Hajarim Gigantea, that's some of the biggest ones. 207 00:12:38,480 --> 00:12:42,760 The hypogeum, the weird stuff with the hypogeum, all that kind 208 00:12:42,760 --> 00:12:46,480 of stuff. Is there any like updates on? 209 00:12:46,480 --> 00:12:49,760 Because I know one of the first times we had you on, we 210 00:12:49,760 --> 00:12:53,480 discussed like rituals and they think there might be some like 211 00:12:53,480 --> 00:12:57,000 ritual sites and they don't know is it, you know, And I know you 212 00:12:57,000 --> 00:12:59,800 and I were tossing around the idea of possibly like antigenic 213 00:12:59,800 --> 00:13:01,880 stuff happening. Has there been any breakthroughs 214 00:13:01,880 --> 00:13:04,400 on any of that, or have you found anything else on that? 215 00:13:05,080 --> 00:13:08,280 No, I haven't read anything. Any research on that? 216 00:13:09,320 --> 00:13:17,040 I read 1 literally a sentence in a paper that said because some 217 00:13:17,040 --> 00:13:21,840 of the ritual vessels were quite small, you know, there's what 218 00:13:21,840 --> 00:13:23,720 were they for? If it was, maybe it was a 219 00:13:23,720 --> 00:13:27,360 condiment, maybe it was something, some other substance 220 00:13:28,480 --> 00:13:30,560 that, yeah, could only take in small amounts. 221 00:13:31,320 --> 00:13:35,280 But without any archaebotanical evidence for that, it's 222 00:13:35,280 --> 00:13:38,040 difficult to say. Maybe there has been some 223 00:13:38,040 --> 00:13:39,880 research since then, but nothing's come across. 224 00:13:39,960 --> 00:13:41,960 There's nothing that I've come across on that. 225 00:13:42,360 --> 00:13:45,400 Since it's become a more popular topic, I would think too that 226 00:13:45,400 --> 00:13:48,440 maybe there's somebody that would want to look into that and 227 00:13:48,440 --> 00:13:51,240 do like a chemical analysis and just see what's kind of going on 228 00:13:51,240 --> 00:13:54,160 there. I think the problem is though, 229 00:13:54,240 --> 00:13:59,040 that a lot of the excavations were the the vessels were 230 00:13:59,760 --> 00:14:05,200 unearthed like I think late 1800s, early 1900s, when 231 00:14:05,520 --> 00:14:08,600 excavation techniques were not so great. 232 00:14:09,320 --> 00:14:13,640 So a lot of the Neolithic sites were pretty much emptied out at 233 00:14:13,640 --> 00:14:18,520 that point, and I don't know what sort of chemical traces 234 00:14:18,520 --> 00:14:19,880 they would still have in them anyway. 235 00:14:20,680 --> 00:14:25,280 It's much easier if they were to find a Neolithic site now and 236 00:14:25,280 --> 00:14:31,640 excavate it and find something, some pottery or something. 237 00:14:31,680 --> 00:14:35,080 That's yeah. I mean it has has been buried 238 00:14:35,080 --> 00:14:37,960 the whole time. If you have wheat too, you know, 239 00:14:38,080 --> 00:14:44,920 you could get claviceps or ergot from that, you know, and then 240 00:14:45,240 --> 00:14:48,800 mushrooms grow everywhere too. You know, that's a potential, I 241 00:14:48,800 --> 00:14:52,320 mean, I actually, I don't know that Like do you know, is there 242 00:14:52,320 --> 00:14:57,040 any natural species of mushrooms or psychoactive mushrooms on 243 00:14:57,040 --> 00:14:59,240 Malta that you know of? Because it is kind of a dry 244 00:14:59,240 --> 00:15:02,920 climate there. I'm not sure, but there was, 245 00:15:04,800 --> 00:15:09,440 there was a monograph written a few years ago. 246 00:15:10,680 --> 00:15:13,200 So there were three monographs written as part of this project 247 00:15:13,200 --> 00:15:15,920 called the Fraxus project, where a whole new set of excavations 248 00:15:15,920 --> 00:15:19,400 took place on Neolithic sites and settlements as well as 249 00:15:19,400 --> 00:15:23,400 temples. And the three monographs were 250 00:15:23,400 --> 00:15:28,160 temple places, temple landscape and temple people. 251 00:15:28,160 --> 00:15:32,240 So temple people obviously was focused on skeletal remains from 252 00:15:33,920 --> 00:15:37,840 not the hypergeum, but another, the Shara Circle in Gozo, which 253 00:15:37,840 --> 00:15:40,600 was an underground, a stone circle on top. 254 00:15:40,600 --> 00:15:46,840 And then under the ground, burial monument and temple 255 00:15:46,840 --> 00:15:51,240 places was about the temple sites. 256 00:15:51,240 --> 00:15:53,920 And then temple landscapes was about the environment. 257 00:15:53,920 --> 00:15:59,080 And they looked at the idea of So what sort of plants and crops 258 00:15:59,080 --> 00:16:01,720 there were at the time, what sort of environmental 259 00:16:01,720 --> 00:16:04,400 degradation appears to have taken place that might explain 260 00:16:04,400 --> 00:16:07,440 why the temple people abandoned the islands or died out. 261 00:16:08,400 --> 00:16:11,400 Now I would turn to that monograph to see if there's 262 00:16:11,400 --> 00:16:13,920 anything because I wouldn't know what the names of those were. 263 00:16:13,920 --> 00:16:16,960 But if you do like a find and search in that one of those 264 00:16:16,960 --> 00:16:21,320 documents, these are Open Access documents as PDFs, might be able 265 00:16:21,320 --> 00:16:24,640 to find something. I don't know if they found any 266 00:16:24,640 --> 00:16:30,160 evidence for just simply those plants having grown at that 267 00:16:30,160 --> 00:16:33,560 time, which still doesn't mean, you know, they're found with 268 00:16:33,560 --> 00:16:35,960 vessels or cooking materials or anything like that. 269 00:16:35,960 --> 00:16:38,880 But it would mean that when they went to these sites and they 270 00:16:38,880 --> 00:16:42,320 looked at the soil and soil cover and and landscape. 271 00:16:42,600 --> 00:16:43,800 But I haven't really read that one. 272 00:16:43,800 --> 00:16:46,840 I was more interested in the temple places 1 So I didn't 273 00:16:46,840 --> 00:16:51,000 really go deep on the environmental stuff, but we 274 00:16:51,000 --> 00:16:52,680 could have a look through that. That might be. 275 00:16:52,680 --> 00:16:53,920 Interesting. Yeah, I mean, I could look, I 276 00:16:53,920 --> 00:16:56,760 was going to say I could use ChatGPT and just search to see 277 00:16:56,760 --> 00:17:02,960 if there's any white papers on whether they found anything that 278 00:17:02,960 --> 00:17:05,880 could be used in ritual or mind altering. 279 00:17:06,319 --> 00:17:14,480 I mean, because why else would ritual so small tiny vessels 280 00:17:14,520 --> 00:17:17,160 found in a ritual context, we're talking. 281 00:17:17,560 --> 00:17:20,800 OK, so in Malta they're referred to as temples, for want of a 282 00:17:20,800 --> 00:17:22,200 better word. We obviously don't know what 283 00:17:22,200 --> 00:17:25,720 took place in these buildings, but they're not domestic 284 00:17:25,720 --> 00:17:31,280 dwellings and they're not all burial sites, so associated with 285 00:17:31,280 --> 00:17:35,120 the funerary ceremonies so. And some of them are weird, 286 00:17:35,120 --> 00:17:36,880 right? There's like holes that just, 287 00:17:36,880 --> 00:17:39,600 like, look into another room. Yeah. 288 00:17:40,040 --> 00:17:42,000 You know, like, what is it? What's going on there? 289 00:17:42,560 --> 00:17:45,000 Exactly. No one really knows and they 290 00:17:45,160 --> 00:17:47,960 they call this one hole the Oracle hole because they say, 291 00:17:47,960 --> 00:17:51,400 well, maybe there was a priestess or priest talking 292 00:17:51,400 --> 00:17:53,560 through it to an audience outside or something. 293 00:17:53,560 --> 00:17:58,720 But it's really just guesswork. So they are considered to be 294 00:17:58,800 --> 00:18:01,280 ritual sites, even if we don't understand what rituals took 295 00:18:01,280 --> 00:18:04,240 place. And so when you find and you see 296 00:18:04,240 --> 00:18:07,120 them in the museum, there's a whole section of tiny, tiny 297 00:18:07,120 --> 00:18:09,720 vessels. What else could they have been 298 00:18:09,720 --> 00:18:12,080 used for? Mustard maybe? 299 00:18:13,840 --> 00:18:19,880 Yeah, mushroom mustard maybe. I mean, we know that feasting 300 00:18:19,880 --> 00:18:24,520 took place in these places, so, you know, but you expect vessels 301 00:18:24,520 --> 00:18:28,080 to be a lot bigger. I mean, the other thing too is I 302 00:18:28,080 --> 00:18:31,320 don't think people think, and I've speculated about this with 303 00:18:31,320 --> 00:18:34,400 like Easter Island and stuff, there's psychoactive fish that 304 00:18:34,400 --> 00:18:37,920 eat coral and then people eat the fish and they get what's 305 00:18:37,920 --> 00:18:42,440 called fish inebriation. And I know Reunion Island has a 306 00:18:42,440 --> 00:18:46,320 culture of that which Reunion Islands off the coast of Africa, 307 00:18:46,600 --> 00:18:50,560 but I know the Mediterranean. Is it called porgy or porgy? 308 00:18:50,560 --> 00:18:53,240 Or there's a fish that the Romans used to eat that had 309 00:18:53,240 --> 00:18:56,040 psychoactive properties as well. No way. 310 00:18:56,160 --> 00:18:58,120 Yeah. I learn so much from you every 311 00:18:58,120 --> 00:18:59,760 time I come on here. That's brilliant. 312 00:18:59,760 --> 00:19:01,640 I had no. Idea but yeah, I mean and 313 00:19:01,640 --> 00:19:05,000 there's in the Pacific islands, there's called like the ghost 314 00:19:05,240 --> 00:19:07,600 fish or chief ghost or something like that. 315 00:19:07,840 --> 00:19:11,400 So there's all sorts of stuff that, you know, it's not just 316 00:19:12,120 --> 00:19:16,440 fungi and flora and stuff like that. 317 00:19:16,440 --> 00:19:18,800 You know, there's lots of things that have psychoactive 318 00:19:18,800 --> 00:19:21,040 properties. What about, I'm sure I read 319 00:19:21,040 --> 00:19:25,080 somewhere there was like an animal that ate stuff that was 320 00:19:25,080 --> 00:19:26,920 psychoactive and then you could eat the animal. 321 00:19:26,920 --> 00:19:28,960 Was it like a goat or something? I don't know. 322 00:19:29,640 --> 00:19:32,400 Well, I know. I mean, yeah, there's stuff like 323 00:19:32,400 --> 00:19:36,160 that for sure. But you know, dolphins eat 324 00:19:36,160 --> 00:19:41,360 puffer fish too. Puffer fish have some sort of, I 325 00:19:41,360 --> 00:19:45,480 forget what it's called, but it's a type of a toxin that, you 326 00:19:45,480 --> 00:19:48,200 know, inebriates them or does something to them. 327 00:19:48,200 --> 00:19:51,080 You'll see videos and I had a scientist on that wrote this 328 00:19:51,080 --> 00:19:56,720 book, but about like animal altered States and animals that 329 00:19:56,720 --> 00:20:00,200 use plants and fungi for altered states. 330 00:20:00,200 --> 00:20:04,080 And dolphins definitely do this thing where they'll pass around 331 00:20:04,080 --> 00:20:06,640 a puffer fish and you can, there's videos online of it and 332 00:20:06,640 --> 00:20:08,000 stuff like that. And they're, they're definitely 333 00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:09,600 getting something out of it. So. 334 00:20:10,920 --> 00:20:13,320 I mean, I always think as well with the sleeping lady, the 335 00:20:13,320 --> 00:20:16,240 figurine that was found in the house, Safflioni Hypozune, I 336 00:20:16,240 --> 00:20:18,920 always wonder about her. Was she sleeping? 337 00:20:19,880 --> 00:20:24,480 Was she in a trance state? Was she, you know, did she take 338 00:20:24,480 --> 00:20:27,520 something and then was supposed to go on a vision journey or 339 00:20:27,520 --> 00:20:30,640 something? I suppose it's all totally. 340 00:20:30,640 --> 00:20:33,280 Possible and you know it's interesting too. 341 00:20:33,720 --> 00:20:37,840 So the fish inebiation, you go to bed and then have these like 342 00:20:37,840 --> 00:20:42,080 crazy dreams and nightmares and. Like when you eat cheese. 343 00:20:43,440 --> 00:20:45,800 Cheese gives me ready. To treat, No. 344 00:20:45,800 --> 00:20:49,840 There's an episode of Hamilton's Pharmacopio with Hamilton Morris 345 00:20:49,920 --> 00:20:52,520 where he goes to, like I said, Reunion Island and they make him 346 00:20:52,520 --> 00:20:56,440 eat these fish heads and then he has these like, insane visions 347 00:20:56,440 --> 00:20:58,200 and dreams and stuff like that too. 348 00:20:58,200 --> 00:21:00,320 So maybe it's tied to that. I mean, who knows, You know, 349 00:21:00,320 --> 00:21:03,880 It's pure speculation. So the Romans were were having 350 00:21:03,880 --> 00:21:07,760 this fish. Yeah, Porgy or Porgy or it's 351 00:21:07,760 --> 00:21:09,640 like PORGY or something. I. 352 00:21:09,640 --> 00:21:11,800 Had no idea. That's really interesting. 353 00:21:12,160 --> 00:21:14,840 Wow. So if you find those fish bones 354 00:21:14,840 --> 00:21:16,360 at a site, this. Yeah. 355 00:21:16,800 --> 00:21:21,760 I suppose it's like how they've been finding lizard tails and 356 00:21:21,760 --> 00:21:25,400 some of these vats like 1 I think outside of Vesuvia or 357 00:21:27,560 --> 00:21:31,920 what's it called? Where's Vesuvius again? 358 00:21:31,960 --> 00:21:33,680 I'm drawing a blank. That's Pompeii. 359 00:21:34,040 --> 00:21:35,520 Pompeii, yeah. So Pompeii. 360 00:21:35,520 --> 00:21:39,960 And then they found outside of Pompeii these vats with all 361 00:21:39,960 --> 00:21:46,960 these tropanes and psychoactive compounds from, you know, you 362 00:21:46,960 --> 00:21:50,400 know, people, belladonna and all those, those are all like very 363 00:21:50,400 --> 00:21:54,520 brutal compounds. But like they've been 364 00:21:54,520 --> 00:21:57,120 speculating too, that maybe these lizard tails might have 365 00:21:57,120 --> 00:22:01,920 psychoactive properties too 'cause, you know, we know about 366 00:22:02,080 --> 00:22:04,520 amphibians and again, all these creatures. 367 00:22:04,520 --> 00:22:07,160 We talked about the toad and I think last time you were in we 368 00:22:07,160 --> 00:22:10,520 talked about the Olmecs and some of the stuff you were looking 369 00:22:10,520 --> 00:22:14,200 into, the toad iconography with the yeah. 370 00:22:14,200 --> 00:22:18,200 So yeah, I mean, who knows? You know, there's lots to be 371 00:22:18,200 --> 00:22:19,960 found with all this kind of stuff. 372 00:22:19,960 --> 00:22:21,640 You just got to start looking into it. 373 00:22:21,640 --> 00:22:26,800 But has there been any other sites around or any big 374 00:22:26,800 --> 00:22:28,440 discoveries? Cause again, I haven't really 375 00:22:28,440 --> 00:22:30,120 been paying attention. Has there been any big 376 00:22:30,120 --> 00:22:32,680 discoveries around like the Mediterranean area lately? 377 00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:37,320 I mean, I'm just trying to think what I've been. 378 00:22:37,720 --> 00:22:39,960 I haven't really been talking much about the Mediterranean. 379 00:22:39,960 --> 00:22:44,920 Actually, I was talking about recently about a site in England 380 00:22:45,320 --> 00:22:51,440 that was quite interesting. It was so in the in the 381 00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:55,960 Neolithic, linear monuments were in fashion before circular 382 00:22:55,960 --> 00:22:59,960 monuments were so linear monuments like cursus monuments 383 00:22:59,960 --> 00:23:05,280 or rectangular enclosures. They these giant earthworks, 384 00:23:05,480 --> 00:23:10,200 they were kind of in vogue before circular monuments like 385 00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:12,360 Stonehenge. So circular henges, stone 386 00:23:12,360 --> 00:23:18,760 circles, timber circles. And they've now found that 387 00:23:18,760 --> 00:23:23,160 they've done some new dating on a monument in Dorset, half of 388 00:23:23,160 --> 00:23:28,400 which was excavated a long time ago and has been turned into a 389 00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:32,040 road I think, or something. And then the other half has been 390 00:23:32,040 --> 00:23:36,880 buried for future research. And they basically went to look 391 00:23:36,880 --> 00:23:41,040 at the samples that were kept in a museum and re dated them and 392 00:23:41,040 --> 00:23:44,880 found that it's possibly the first circular monument of its 393 00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:48,360 kind and the largest in the whole of the British Isles. 394 00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:51,840 Which means that that was the one that set the the kind of 395 00:23:51,840 --> 00:23:55,080 path, the tradition, the pattern, the trend for the new 396 00:23:55,080 --> 00:23:58,120 circular monuments, which then was copied at Stonehenge. 397 00:23:58,240 --> 00:24:01,400 And where was that? Dorsets were in the South of 398 00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:04,240 England. Because I know the, the, I was 399 00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:06,920 gonna say, have you heard the speculation of the other way? 400 00:24:06,920 --> 00:24:14,160 So like Scarabray and up and like the Orkney Islands and up 401 00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:18,480 there they found all those old, old Neolithic circles and stuff 402 00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:20,560 like that and they thought it like maybe worked its way down. 403 00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:23,000 But you're saying that now they're speculated, maybe went 404 00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:27,440 up? Yeah, it's, it's so they, there 405 00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:31,680 was the research on the old stone, which they're saying came 406 00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:34,120 from northern Scotland. So not Orkney, but northern 407 00:24:34,120 --> 00:24:36,760 Scotland. They, they found out it was from 408 00:24:36,760 --> 00:24:41,720 the Orkadian Basin, which is a geological formation that 409 00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:45,320 stretches from northern Scotland under the sea to Orkney. 410 00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:51,920 And but the rocks that were used for the Orkney monuments are not 411 00:24:51,920 --> 00:24:55,640 the same, are not from the same exact part of that Orkadian 412 00:24:55,640 --> 00:24:59,320 Basin as the alterstone that was then transported down to 413 00:24:59,320 --> 00:25:01,400 Stonehenge. But it would appear there's a 414 00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:03,280 connection between all these people. 415 00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:05,440 So that's obviously quite interesting. 416 00:25:06,560 --> 00:25:09,760 But that was the Stonehenge stuff was all later than this 417 00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:13,000 circular monument. So yeah, I always thought that 418 00:25:13,120 --> 00:25:17,560 because people talk a lot about Orkney and how old they are, it 419 00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:20,920 was thought that they were probably the first circles. 420 00:25:20,920 --> 00:25:25,240 And then we know Groove, where pottery started there and then 421 00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:28,720 moved southwards and westwards. We know that. 422 00:25:29,840 --> 00:25:33,120 So the altar stone was carried down from there. 423 00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:37,000 The actual rock itself brought to Stonehenge at some point in 424 00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:40,760 Stonehenge's long evolution, because it obviously started off 425 00:25:40,760 --> 00:25:44,200 quite early, even in the Mesolithic, probably with some 426 00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:47,120 timber poles, a timber alignment. 427 00:25:48,160 --> 00:25:52,840 So yeah, this would be quite, this is quite interesting to 428 00:25:52,840 --> 00:25:56,120 think that actually the first and largest circular monument 429 00:25:56,120 --> 00:25:58,560 was in the South near enough Stonehenge in a way. 430 00:25:59,880 --> 00:26:04,480 I mean, it would make sense from the standpoint of like climate 431 00:26:04,560 --> 00:26:08,560 or weather, right? Because it's warmer down there 432 00:26:08,680 --> 00:26:12,200 and I can't imagine it was any warmer up there when it was 433 00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:13,840 cooler, you know, in like Orkney. 434 00:26:13,840 --> 00:26:15,000 I would. It's pretty rough. 435 00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:17,720 I don't know if anybody's ever seen like the seas and stuff 436 00:26:17,720 --> 00:26:21,320 like up there. It's pretty, pretty brutal. 437 00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:26,440 Yeah, exactly. I mean, it's interesting. 438 00:26:26,440 --> 00:26:34,200 I it's, it's hard to say because a lot of sites are always 439 00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:36,160 thought to be on older sites anyway. 440 00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:38,880 You know, they think that Stonehenge followed on from a 441 00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:43,040 Mesolithic timber alignment in Orkney. 442 00:26:43,040 --> 00:26:45,320 There's every possibility there was something there a little bit 443 00:26:45,320 --> 00:26:48,600 earlier. So you know, it's just a matter 444 00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:50,800 of finding it and you're not going to dig up all the stone 445 00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:57,240 circles until you find some scarce artifact that's floating 446 00:26:57,240 --> 00:26:59,160 around that tells you there was something there earlier. 447 00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:02,520 It's, it's hard if there was just like a really simple timber 448 00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:05,680 alignment and then it was removed and then it was that 449 00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:10,160 whole area was reused much more intensively over the next 1000 450 00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:15,240 years with lots of like post holes dug and lots of stones put 451 00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:18,720 up and, and lots of ritual artifacts dropped there. 452 00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:23,400 I, I, I suppose, and obviously I'm no expert and I'm an amateur 453 00:27:23,400 --> 00:27:26,240 looking at this from the outside, but I suppose it would 454 00:27:26,240 --> 00:27:28,920 be quite hard to preserve some of that Mesolithic stuff. 455 00:27:29,120 --> 00:27:32,040 What they found at Stonehenge isn't actually on the Stonehenge 456 00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:34,280 monument. The Mesolithic alignment is in 457 00:27:34,280 --> 00:27:36,720 what was at one point a car park nearby. 458 00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:40,760 So that's why they were able to find it. 459 00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:46,720 But I think sometimes monuments get reused so much, you can't 460 00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:48,560 always find some of the really early stuff. 461 00:27:48,920 --> 00:27:52,760 But even in it's, I think it's in somewhere else in the 462 00:27:52,760 --> 00:27:54,920 northern England or gosh, I've forgotten. 463 00:27:54,920 --> 00:27:59,280 I did a video on this. They found another evidence of 464 00:27:59,280 --> 00:28:02,200 Mesolithic alignment, a timber Mesolithic alignment that they 465 00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:05,800 think may have been a lunar calendar, like a lunar solar 466 00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:07,360 calendar. So what's the? 467 00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:12,560 Prevailing wisdom with like, how does this so like we know the 468 00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:15,040 Neolithic peoples in that area, but like, how does that I know 469 00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:23,040 like Karnak has that the stone and then they've got all these 470 00:28:23,040 --> 00:28:28,080 different like alignments and, you know, just like primitive 471 00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:32,200 circles. And you know, I think they're 472 00:28:32,200 --> 00:28:35,720 the Karnak's lines, right? So like what's, how is that? 473 00:28:35,720 --> 00:28:38,040 Is that connected at all? Or those are just to different 474 00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:42,680 people all together? They're they're really are, I 475 00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:47,160 mean there earlier than the monuments in the British Isles 476 00:28:48,280 --> 00:28:52,720 and the ones along the whole Atlantic Coast, Portugal, Spain 477 00:28:52,720 --> 00:28:57,080 and France are all much older. And yeah, once again, they're 478 00:28:57,080 --> 00:28:58,560 not really sure if there's a connection. 479 00:28:58,760 --> 00:29:01,680 I have read a paper where it's been suggested there was a 480 00:29:01,680 --> 00:29:05,360 connection and a sort of megalith building culture moved 481 00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:08,800 West and then northwards. But then there's also been work 482 00:29:08,800 --> 00:29:11,640 done where they're just the dates and the chronologies and 483 00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:15,480 the connections just don't seem to be there, so it's hard to 484 00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:18,200 say. It doesn't necessarily mean that 485 00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:22,440 the ideas didn't travel though, if even if the people didn't, 486 00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:24,640 there could have been some ideas that travelled. 487 00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:27,760 What's what's So what? What about dolmans too? 488 00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:34,560 Like the, you know, the the two and it's almost like a primitive 489 00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:38,320 lentil, kind of a set up. Yeah, they're just thought to be 490 00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:42,040 burial monuments. So it's kind of like how like a 491 00:29:42,040 --> 00:29:47,840 mastaba evolved into an actual pyramid or structure or 492 00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:50,400 something, OK. Yeah, exactly. 493 00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:53,960 And there's dolmans all over. I mean, there's so many. 494 00:29:53,960 --> 00:29:57,920 I suppose that can be an idea that is created independently by 495 00:29:57,920 --> 00:30:00,480 lots of different cultures because it's literally, you 496 00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:03,040 know, it's difficult to put them up, I suppose. 497 00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:09,000 But it's just three stones. Well, the simplest ones are just 498 00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:10,280 three stones. Obviously there's much more 499 00:30:10,280 --> 00:30:16,800 sophisticated ones in Spain and whatnot, but they are usually, 500 00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:19,120 there are usually skeletal remains found if they haven't 501 00:30:19,120 --> 00:30:21,240 been looted at some point in the past. 502 00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:23,640 And they make sense as funerary monuments. 503 00:30:23,640 --> 00:30:25,920 And sometimes they are astronomically aligned, which 504 00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:30,440 also makes sense in terms of like funerary ceremonies and 505 00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:33,200 worshipping the ancestors and carrying out rituals at them 506 00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:35,640 every year and adding new skeletons to them. 507 00:30:36,280 --> 00:30:39,720 I think I don't find dolmans that odd. 508 00:30:40,080 --> 00:30:43,560 I find monuments where there's no burials attached or very few 509 00:30:43,560 --> 00:30:45,360 burials attached can be a little bit strange. 510 00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:50,600 But actually this circular monument was associated with a 511 00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:53,280 mix of cremation and inhumation burials. 512 00:30:53,680 --> 00:30:58,080 So in the Neolithic there was a a gradual shift as well from 513 00:30:58,240 --> 00:31:01,280 inhumation to cremation. So it could be that all these 514 00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:04,960 monuments did have a funerary role to play in some respects, 515 00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:09,440 even if there wasn't like so you might think that they found 516 00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:12,680 something like 4 burials there and it's a massive monument. 517 00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:19,200 Isn't that a bit big for that? But maybe it was some specific 518 00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:23,040 people that within the society. I mean, I don't know if the 519 00:31:23,040 --> 00:31:25,400 Neolithic is thought to be that stratified, but let's say 520 00:31:25,400 --> 00:31:35,600 potentially it was or maybe they some of it got kind of damaged 521 00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:37,600 over time. Because a lot of these, and I 522 00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:40,640 find this really interesting, a lot of stone circles and henges 523 00:31:41,080 --> 00:31:44,200 and it's so difficult to get decent pictures because they're 524 00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:49,200 like in a housing estate and they just happen to be digging 525 00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:52,320 in someone's garden and they find some traces of something. 526 00:31:52,800 --> 00:31:55,400 And then they have to like re, you know, look at that whole 527 00:31:55,400 --> 00:31:56,600 site. And then they've realized there 528 00:31:56,600 --> 00:31:58,880 was a massive circle there. And then they look, start 529 00:31:58,880 --> 00:32:01,440 looking in neighboring fields and they find other monuments. 530 00:32:02,280 --> 00:32:05,000 So I mean, there's obviously a lot of damage to them over time. 531 00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:08,240 There's no two ways about it. But that says archaeologists are 532 00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:11,160 really good at finding, finding things. 533 00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:14,520 I mean, it astonishes me when you watch Time Team and they, 534 00:32:14,920 --> 00:32:18,400 they're scraping away and they, Oh yeah, we can see that this 535 00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:21,640 was whatever. And I just see loads of dirt and 536 00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:24,560 they can tell all the different shades of dirt and soil patches. 537 00:32:24,560 --> 00:32:29,720 And in England, because a lot of the time we're talking timber or 538 00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:34,040 earthworks, they have to go a lot on crop marks from aerial 539 00:32:34,040 --> 00:32:43,040 photography and geophysics to be able to even work out what was 540 00:32:43,040 --> 00:32:47,600 there or if anything was there. And then they start digging and 541 00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:50,280 sometimes find some artifacts, but sometimes they just find 542 00:32:50,920 --> 00:32:54,480 pits and trenches. But you know, they've been 543 00:32:54,480 --> 00:32:58,680 robbed out at some point. So this I find and you know, 544 00:32:58,680 --> 00:33:01,360 like the the ditches and the banks are not there, but they 545 00:33:01,360 --> 00:33:03,320 know that they were there originally and stuff. 546 00:33:03,920 --> 00:33:08,280 It's amazing what they can figure out, but in a really 547 00:33:08,280 --> 00:33:11,640 damaged monument. But still, when there's a lot of 548 00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:15,520 damage and reuse of a site, I'm sure some things we just can 549 00:33:15,520 --> 00:33:18,560 never know. I mean, even in Malta, because 550 00:33:18,560 --> 00:33:22,760 there's not much soil cover in some areas, they've excavated 551 00:33:22,760 --> 00:33:26,440 around a megalith that's been found and they're like, OK, this 552 00:33:26,440 --> 00:33:29,040 is definitely a worked megalith. It must have belonged to a 553 00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:31,680 temple once. Let's start digging and see what 554 00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:33,520 we can find. And then when I read about it, 555 00:33:33,520 --> 00:33:35,640 they didn't find anything because it's been that much 556 00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:37,960 farming, intensive farming in that area. 557 00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:42,480 And they've laid soil and clouds and whatever. 558 00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:45,080 And the, you know, the anything that they would have been, would 559 00:33:45,080 --> 00:33:49,960 have been lying on the surface so or very with a very light 560 00:33:49,960 --> 00:33:52,040 soil cover. So it's all gone. 561 00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:57,600 So you know, you don't always get get every get any. 562 00:33:57,680 --> 00:33:59,320 Yeah, I was. I was just curious about the 563 00:33:59,320 --> 00:34:01,880 progression too. Like dolmen, If you go from like 564 00:34:01,880 --> 00:34:07,760 a dolmen to like New Grange, like was the dolmen the 565 00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:10,080 precursor to like a new grain? You know what I'm saying? 566 00:34:10,080 --> 00:34:13,920 They're like a dolmen and precursor to Stonehenge or. 567 00:34:14,480 --> 00:34:17,280 But dolmens were in use from Neolithic all the way through to 568 00:34:17,280 --> 00:34:19,400 Bronze Age, so they were. So they were still in. 569 00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:21,880 Use larger monuments. Gotcha. 570 00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:26,560 And I know New Grange is more of like a astronomical observatory, 571 00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:29,199 like they know that there's alignments with the solstice and 572 00:34:29,199 --> 00:34:33,239 everything like that. Yeah. 573 00:34:33,239 --> 00:34:37,080 And and there was a burial associated with it, at least one 574 00:34:37,080 --> 00:34:41,120 wasn't there. And they could even trace from 575 00:34:41,120 --> 00:34:45,000 the DNA the connection between burials in that area, that they 576 00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:47,440 were all relative relatives one another. 577 00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:51,600 So I mean, they do some amazing work with DNA now as well. 578 00:34:51,600 --> 00:34:55,719 It's just mind blowing. Oh, absolutely. 579 00:34:55,719 --> 00:34:59,200 I wish I understood all that a bit better because it's so 580 00:34:59,200 --> 00:35:01,960 complex. But you know, I really enjoy 581 00:35:01,960 --> 00:35:07,040 learning about these connections with DNA, seeing whether a 582 00:35:07,480 --> 00:35:10,360 society was patrilinear or matrilinear. 583 00:35:12,720 --> 00:35:14,960 There's been some interesting work on that. 584 00:35:15,160 --> 00:35:18,640 So and Malta, do they have dolmens? 585 00:35:18,640 --> 00:35:22,560 I know you have like lentil and like building structures that 586 00:35:22,560 --> 00:35:25,800 are similar but are there any dole actual just dolmens on 587 00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:28,120 Malta? Yeah, not many though. 588 00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:31,640 I mean, there's been AI, don't know how many have been recorded 589 00:35:31,640 --> 00:35:38,280 over the years, maybe 10 to 15 maximum, but how many actually 590 00:35:38,280 --> 00:35:44,520 remain? Probably about 6. 591 00:35:46,040 --> 00:35:52,080 So I visited one small cluster. I visited one that's on its own, 592 00:35:52,520 --> 00:35:55,640 some others are on private farmland so you can't get to 593 00:35:55,640 --> 00:35:58,560 them, and another one is on private land. 594 00:35:59,960 --> 00:36:02,720 I don't know if there's any other still extant honestly. 595 00:36:03,960 --> 00:36:06,560 There's a little map in the Museum of them, but they are 596 00:36:06,560 --> 00:36:09,840 thought to be Bronze Age because they were all empty apart from 597 00:36:09,840 --> 00:36:15,760 one's one and this one called Taha Moot, This one is like a 598 00:36:15,760 --> 00:36:19,480 cluster of them actually they found Bronze Age artifacts there 599 00:36:19,680 --> 00:36:23,120 so and it was very similar in design to all the others. 600 00:36:23,360 --> 00:36:27,480 So the thought was that it was a when the Bronze Age people came 601 00:36:27,480 --> 00:36:31,880 to Malta, they were building dolmens and there there's a big 602 00:36:31,880 --> 00:36:35,560 separation between the temple people and the Bronze Age. 603 00:36:36,080 --> 00:36:40,640 The the waves of Bronze Age migration because the island was 604 00:36:40,640 --> 00:36:43,600 practically empty between these phases. 605 00:36:44,360 --> 00:36:46,920 Yeah, we've discussed that on past episodes. 606 00:36:46,920 --> 00:36:51,520 You mentioned the, the, the period where there's like no 607 00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:56,320 building or anything and it, the islands seem to be kind of 608 00:36:56,320 --> 00:36:59,120 empty, right? And then you go back to like the 609 00:36:59,120 --> 00:37:03,160 earliest megaliths and those, what are those, 5000? 610 00:37:04,360 --> 00:37:07,480 Yeah, exactly. They're more than 5000 years or 611 00:37:07,960 --> 00:37:10,160 so. The SO the Dolmans are 612 00:37:10,160 --> 00:37:12,920 megalithic, but they're not connected to the temple culture 613 00:37:12,920 --> 00:37:14,560 at all. Not. 614 00:37:14,680 --> 00:37:18,200 Not here anyway. Gotcha, gotcha. 615 00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:22,000 Well, I mean it's and so like the you mentioned you, you've 616 00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:24,720 mentioned the farmland is, do you think that there's anything 617 00:37:24,800 --> 00:37:30,240 that could be of, you know, interest on any of these 618 00:37:30,240 --> 00:37:33,080 people's farmland? Like how much farmland is there 619 00:37:33,080 --> 00:37:37,280 and how much do you think is still yet to be discovered kind 620 00:37:37,280 --> 00:37:39,520 of a thing? You know, I always wonder this 621 00:37:39,960 --> 00:37:48,400 and not that long ago, maybe 6-7 years, I'm just reaching for 622 00:37:48,400 --> 00:37:51,480 numbers today, sorry, because I don't memorize everything in my, 623 00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:57,480 my head. But there was this on Gozo. 624 00:37:57,600 --> 00:38:02,440 So, you know, there's this, there's this area called to 625 00:38:02,440 --> 00:38:04,560 Trench. It's this like plateau in these 626 00:38:04,560 --> 00:38:07,360 cliffs. And there was some dolmans that 627 00:38:07,360 --> 00:38:12,200 are actually forgot about those, well, one proper dolmen and the 628 00:38:12,200 --> 00:38:14,640 others are kind of like look like collapsed dolmens. 629 00:38:15,240 --> 00:38:20,480 But anyway, on that plateau there is an unexcavated temple 630 00:38:20,480 --> 00:38:28,480 site and it really is just a lot of rocks and modern rubble walls 631 00:38:28,480 --> 00:38:31,000 mingled in. It's quite hard to realise that 632 00:38:31,000 --> 00:38:33,520 it's a temple site, but it is and it's never been excavated. 633 00:38:34,720 --> 00:38:40,200 But not too far away in the nearest village, a few years 634 00:38:40,200 --> 00:38:44,400 ago, somebody was building something in their garden and 635 00:38:44,400 --> 00:38:47,480 they must have needed planning permission for it because there 636 00:38:47,480 --> 00:38:52,040 was it was overseen by archaeologists and they found 637 00:38:52,800 --> 00:38:56,760 they had a temple in their garden like covered in 638 00:38:56,760 --> 00:38:59,840 vegetation, but only a few rocks were left. 639 00:39:00,520 --> 00:39:05,800 Now that to me is crazy because you know, it's, you wouldn't 640 00:39:05,800 --> 00:39:07,400 know. I mean, I've been to sites, 641 00:39:07,400 --> 00:39:10,480 other sites that haven't been excavated and that where they're 642 00:39:10,480 --> 00:39:13,920 really heavy with vegetation, like the prickly pear trees and 643 00:39:13,920 --> 00:39:16,240 stuff. You can barely tell what it is, 644 00:39:16,840 --> 00:39:18,920 but I've read about it. So I've gone there and I've had 645 00:39:18,920 --> 00:39:20,600 a look and I'm like, OK, I can see that. 646 00:39:20,600 --> 00:39:23,680 That's a worked megalith. So you can understand. 647 00:39:23,680 --> 00:39:25,840 Someone just had it in their garden, had no idea. 648 00:39:27,160 --> 00:39:29,800 And I just think that's crazy. I'd love to find that in my 649 00:39:29,800 --> 00:39:32,920 garden. Yeah, that's that is great. 650 00:39:32,920 --> 00:39:38,040 It's like that movie Netflix where the woman's husband dies 651 00:39:38,040 --> 00:39:42,280 and she lets the guy excavate on his and they find the Viking 652 00:39:42,880 --> 00:39:46,800 tombs there. I'm trying to think of the name. 653 00:39:48,400 --> 00:39:53,920 It's a famous British story of a woman whose husband goes away to 654 00:39:53,920 --> 00:39:57,920 war. He dies and she allows them to 655 00:39:57,920 --> 00:40:01,160 excavate on her property. I'm drawing a blank right now 656 00:40:01,720 --> 00:40:05,760 anyways, Yeah, no, I mean, it's a it's a movie on Netflix. 657 00:40:05,760 --> 00:40:11,480 It's I want to say Ralph Fiennes is the guy that digs or 658 00:40:11,480 --> 00:40:16,640 something like that anyways. But yeah, there's probably lots 659 00:40:16,640 --> 00:40:20,840 of sites like that. I know the interesting thing 660 00:40:20,840 --> 00:40:26,080 though, is the, the, you know, the geology of that. 661 00:40:26,080 --> 00:40:30,320 I was, I, I was watching below Deck, oddly enough, with my wife 662 00:40:30,320 --> 00:40:32,280 and they're, they're in Malta for the season. 663 00:40:32,280 --> 00:40:33,960 It was like below Deck Mediterranean. 664 00:40:33,960 --> 00:40:37,600 They were in Malta and they like let the people that work on the 665 00:40:37,600 --> 00:40:40,200 ship like have a day off and they went to the beach, but the 666 00:40:40,200 --> 00:40:44,160 beach wasn't a beach. It was all that like rustic rock 667 00:40:44,160 --> 00:40:47,880 that you see that are, you know, the, the megaliths are made out 668 00:40:47,880 --> 00:40:50,720 of. It's like that, very coarse and 669 00:40:50,720 --> 00:40:53,680 sharp looking stuff, so like that. 670 00:40:53,680 --> 00:40:55,560 I find that very fascinating as well. 671 00:40:55,840 --> 00:40:59,320 Yeah, Oh yeah, there's some, it's all limestone, Upper 672 00:40:59,320 --> 00:41:03,120 Coraline, lower Coraline and Globizarina limestone. 673 00:41:04,680 --> 00:41:09,280 Some of it, the Coraline's, the really rough looking ones, lower 674 00:41:09,280 --> 00:41:12,440 and upper, it's very rough. And then Globizarina's like the 675 00:41:12,440 --> 00:41:21,360 smooth one looks really sandy. But yeah, it's I, I always think 676 00:41:22,480 --> 00:41:28,400 so Sometimes when the cultural heritage unit like, produces an 677 00:41:28,400 --> 00:41:31,480 annual report, you go through it because I like to see what 678 00:41:31,720 --> 00:41:33,320 research they've done on the previous year. 679 00:41:33,960 --> 00:41:37,640 And sometimes they'll say they were doing an doing an 680 00:41:37,640 --> 00:41:43,000 excavation before a construction project and they came across 681 00:41:43,000 --> 00:41:46,600 something that they thought had been destroyed years ago, like a 682 00:41:46,600 --> 00:41:50,560 lost megalithic site and stuff that's happened over the years 683 00:41:50,560 --> 00:41:53,080 as well. And then they make sure that 684 00:41:53,080 --> 00:41:55,480 it's preserved within the new development. 685 00:41:56,520 --> 00:42:00,480 But yeah, it's it just makes me wonder how much else is lost 686 00:42:00,480 --> 00:42:02,720 because you think it's quite a well, there's not that many 687 00:42:02,720 --> 00:42:07,280 trees and it's this bare small rock, but it's not that small in 688 00:42:07,280 --> 00:42:09,520 the sense that it would still take you a long time to walk 689 00:42:09,520 --> 00:42:13,280 from one end to the other. And there's still a lot of land 690 00:42:13,280 --> 00:42:18,720 that, you know, is got a lot of vegetation on it that could be 691 00:42:18,720 --> 00:42:20,960 covering stuff. I mean, it could be. 692 00:42:21,560 --> 00:42:24,000 It would be hard to tell. Yeah, it seems like it's got a 693 00:42:24,320 --> 00:42:32,120 similar geography or geology and all that stuff and and sediment 694 00:42:32,120 --> 00:42:35,040 can it seems like it's very similar to Sicily if I like 695 00:42:35,040 --> 00:42:37,560 based on looking, I've never been there, but just based on. 696 00:42:38,480 --> 00:42:41,120 Well, Sicily, it's actually a lot more mountainous. 697 00:42:41,320 --> 00:42:43,640 We only have a few small hills in Malta. 698 00:42:43,880 --> 00:42:46,680 This is really mountainous, not just Aetna. 699 00:42:47,000 --> 00:42:48,920 It's like a very mountainous country. 700 00:42:49,200 --> 00:42:54,600 But some of the, yeah, the, the geologies you see is similar. 701 00:42:54,600 --> 00:42:56,920 But The thing is, is Sicily is a lot older. 702 00:42:57,480 --> 00:43:02,920 I think Malta emerged from the sea like 22 million years ago or 703 00:43:02,920 --> 00:43:04,840 something. But Sicily was earlier than 704 00:43:04,840 --> 00:43:08,320 that. But Sicily was, you know, at 705 00:43:08,320 --> 00:43:12,840 some point, I think it was three islands or something, and then 706 00:43:13,320 --> 00:43:18,440 Aetna emerged from the end of the sea and then it all became 1 707 00:43:18,440 --> 00:43:21,200 island when it erupted the first time, yeah. 708 00:43:21,240 --> 00:43:22,600 I mean, I'd love to get over there. 709 00:43:22,600 --> 00:43:24,680 I still haven't been to. I'd love to go to Italy and 710 00:43:24,680 --> 00:43:26,320 Greece, maybe even check out Malta. 711 00:43:26,320 --> 00:43:30,960 My family's from Calabria, Italy so I would love to lower. 712 00:43:31,600 --> 00:43:36,640 That's so cool. Lower boot part of actually, and 713 00:43:36,640 --> 00:43:40,480 I didn't realize this, but that's where Pythagoras had as a 714 00:43:40,480 --> 00:43:44,520 seated cult was in Croton, which is like pretty much where 715 00:43:44,520 --> 00:43:47,480 Calabria is now. So I'd like to go check out that 716 00:43:47,480 --> 00:43:50,720 area at some point. Yeah, I haven't actually been 717 00:43:50,720 --> 00:43:53,000 across to Calabria. I would like to. 718 00:43:53,000 --> 00:43:55,840 I've been to Sicily many times. I've been to Italy many, many 719 00:43:55,840 --> 00:43:59,400 times, but all different parts. But I've never been to Calabria. 720 00:43:59,880 --> 00:44:01,920 And I keep saying that I want to go there. 721 00:44:01,920 --> 00:44:04,480 And there's a really good museum in Reggio Calabria that I want 722 00:44:04,480 --> 00:44:07,400 to go to, but just haven't managed it yet. 723 00:44:08,600 --> 00:44:10,920 Well, I'm sure you'll get there. You go, you travel, you get 724 00:44:10,920 --> 00:44:12,680 around there. It's a little bit easier for me 725 00:44:12,680 --> 00:44:15,200 to get there than you, so I really should make an effort. 726 00:44:15,320 --> 00:44:20,000 I could drive there. But you know, I, you know, we, I 727 00:44:20,000 --> 00:44:23,280 keep talking about if I, if the first place we go in Europe is 728 00:44:23,280 --> 00:44:25,760 definitely Italy, probably Greece too. 729 00:44:25,800 --> 00:44:29,440 I'd love to see Greece and some of the temples and stuff, you 730 00:44:29,440 --> 00:44:31,840 know? I've been to Greece before a 731 00:44:31,840 --> 00:44:36,880 couple of times, but it there's so much to see that I mean, my 732 00:44:36,880 --> 00:44:40,520 list is so long. And I'm not even, I'm not even 733 00:44:40,520 --> 00:44:42,960 like so set on like Athens per SE. 734 00:44:42,960 --> 00:44:49,640 Like there's other places like Naxos, the Portara Naxos I'd 735 00:44:49,640 --> 00:44:55,880 love to see and maybe a lusus. And, you know, so we have a 736 00:44:55,880 --> 00:44:59,920 question, Scully asks. Do the Knights of Malta do any 737 00:44:59,920 --> 00:45:03,880 weird Illuminati rituals at any of these megaliths? 738 00:45:04,280 --> 00:45:07,560 But I know that So what the Knights of Malta are a real 739 00:45:07,560 --> 00:45:10,760 thing there and or what is? That yeah, the Knights. 740 00:45:10,760 --> 00:45:15,280 That's similar to like, Yeah. What? 741 00:45:15,360 --> 00:45:16,960 So what are they similar to Like I? 742 00:45:16,960 --> 00:45:19,680 Think it's just a like a religious order. 743 00:45:19,920 --> 00:45:25,280 OK. With historic roots I from, 744 00:45:26,200 --> 00:45:29,240 yeah, the early modern period, I suppose. 745 00:45:29,680 --> 00:45:32,200 But I assume you you haven't seen any of these guys dressed 746 00:45:32,200 --> 00:45:34,520 up like that at any of these megaliths? 747 00:45:35,520 --> 00:45:39,880 No no, it's just lots of tourists with cameras. 748 00:45:40,320 --> 00:45:42,520 Unless they do some weird rituals in the middle of the 749 00:45:42,520 --> 00:45:43,720 night. Maybe they do. 750 00:45:43,720 --> 00:45:46,600 They don't hang around in the samples or the hybrid gym in the 751 00:45:46,600 --> 00:45:48,520 middle of the night. Yeah, I would assume it's 752 00:45:48,520 --> 00:45:51,840 probably similar to what the Masons or some sort of Masonic. 753 00:45:52,800 --> 00:45:54,720 I don't think it's that secret though. 754 00:45:54,720 --> 00:45:59,360 I mean, it's a religious order. OK, So it's, is it part of like 755 00:45:59,360 --> 00:46:01,160 the Catholic Church? Charity work. 756 00:46:01,240 --> 00:46:03,120 Is it part of the Catholic? Oh, it is OK, It's. 757 00:46:03,320 --> 00:46:05,520 Part of the Catholic Church, I think. 758 00:46:05,960 --> 00:46:08,600 I mean, I'm no expert. I think it has roots in that 759 00:46:08,600 --> 00:46:13,840 early, early modern period organization that came from 760 00:46:13,840 --> 00:46:19,840 Rhodes to Malta. The funny thing is though, I'll 761 00:46:19,840 --> 00:46:23,120 tell you one funny thing. I was in Rome once, I've been 762 00:46:23,120 --> 00:46:26,960 many times and I wanted to just see something different. 763 00:46:27,560 --> 00:46:30,120 So I've been to all the sites that many times. 764 00:46:30,120 --> 00:46:36,920 So I, I googled esoteric stuff to see in Rome and I read about 765 00:46:36,920 --> 00:46:41,040 this keyhole. So I went on a little expedition 766 00:46:41,040 --> 00:46:48,280 to find this keyhole and it's basically it's where the Knights 767 00:46:50,000 --> 00:46:58,040 of Saint John headquarters is. And everybody says that when you 768 00:46:58,040 --> 00:47:04,280 go to the keyhole to their like sort of estate and you look 769 00:47:04,280 --> 00:47:08,560 through it, you have a Direct Line to the Vatican and it's 770 00:47:08,560 --> 00:47:10,920 like, like right in the centre of the keyhole. 771 00:47:10,920 --> 00:47:15,200 And it's really interesting. So I went there thinking, this 772 00:47:15,200 --> 00:47:18,720 is really niche, nobody's going to be there. 773 00:47:19,800 --> 00:47:23,160 Oh my God, There's a queue all the way down the street, like 774 00:47:23,160 --> 00:47:26,120 100 people waiting to look through this keyhole. 775 00:47:27,400 --> 00:47:29,840 So I waited. I had a look and you can see the 776 00:47:29,840 --> 00:47:32,680 Vatican, but I don't really know what's so esoteric about that, 777 00:47:32,680 --> 00:47:35,400 because these are all religious orders and they're all in Rome. 778 00:47:35,640 --> 00:47:38,280 And you can see a lot of things from a lot of different places 779 00:47:38,280 --> 00:47:40,400 if you're on a hill. Rome is made-up of. 780 00:47:40,400 --> 00:47:45,040 Maybe it's like one of those like Druid seer circle or seer 781 00:47:45,040 --> 00:47:47,600 stones or whatever, you know, like something like that. 782 00:47:50,400 --> 00:47:54,040 But yeah, so I did. I just got a little day out to 783 00:47:54,040 --> 00:47:56,120 look at that. People were even arriving in 784 00:47:56,120 --> 00:47:57,920 taxis to look through this keyhole. 785 00:47:58,680 --> 00:48:00,680 I always get confused. But the Knights and all that's 786 00:48:00,680 --> 00:48:03,880 different. So the people that guard the 787 00:48:03,880 --> 00:48:05,120 Vatican, those are that's different. 788 00:48:05,120 --> 00:48:07,120 It's like what? Swiss Guard or Swiss? 789 00:48:07,120 --> 00:48:09,040 That's the Swiss Guards. They're the ones in the 790 00:48:09,120 --> 00:48:10,680 colourful out. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 791 00:48:10,680 --> 00:48:12,840 OK. Really colourful outfits. 792 00:48:12,960 --> 00:48:19,480 They're all like, yeah, Knights of Saint John or Knights of 793 00:48:19,480 --> 00:48:21,760 Motor. I, I mean, listen, I'm no expert 794 00:48:21,760 --> 00:48:26,760 in this, but there's an there's an interesting history, but it's 795 00:48:26,760 --> 00:48:30,680 relatively modern compared to what I tend to read about. 796 00:48:30,880 --> 00:48:32,880 I want to look into it. I mean, I, I find that kind of 797 00:48:32,880 --> 00:48:35,280 stuff interesting. Obviously, you know, there's a 798 00:48:35,280 --> 00:48:38,680 reason why people ask these questions, whether there's some 799 00:48:38,680 --> 00:48:41,360 secretive Nuggets in there or not. 800 00:48:41,360 --> 00:48:43,600 But you know, I got to look into that. 801 00:48:44,480 --> 00:48:49,920 Yeah, I mean, I think there were some esoteric associations with 802 00:48:49,920 --> 00:48:57,720 them, I suppose because they were had a lot of money and 803 00:48:59,520 --> 00:49:04,600 controlled the islands for a long time and still have, you 804 00:49:04,600 --> 00:49:09,280 know, quite some properties. I mean, the estate in Rome is 805 00:49:09,280 --> 00:49:12,400 really nice with the keyhole. It's lovely. 806 00:49:13,200 --> 00:49:18,160 So you know, anywhere where you have religion and money, there's 807 00:49:18,160 --> 00:49:21,440 always also like an underlying isotope association. 808 00:49:22,080 --> 00:49:23,680 You're like, I'm here for the keyhole. 809 00:49:23,680 --> 00:49:26,040 The person points. It's like the longest line ever. 810 00:49:26,040 --> 00:49:28,840 It's like. I know. 811 00:49:28,840 --> 00:49:30,680 I couldn't believe it. You know, when you just, oh, 812 00:49:30,680 --> 00:49:32,760 really? And I was thinking, well, if 813 00:49:32,760 --> 00:49:36,880 each person looks through it for 20 seconds, how long am I going 814 00:49:36,920 --> 00:49:40,720 to be waiting to see it? And then you see people, I've 815 00:49:40,720 --> 00:49:46,200 seen online Instagram pictures of this keyhole where people 816 00:49:46,200 --> 00:49:49,520 have actually put their phone up to the keyhole to get a good, 817 00:49:50,520 --> 00:49:53,960 good photo of it. I mean, that's of course people 818 00:49:53,960 --> 00:49:56,360 really committed to their Instagram feed, I mean. 819 00:49:57,320 --> 00:49:59,000 See, I'm different. Stuff like that. 820 00:49:59,000 --> 00:50:01,400 Like if I was there at like one of these sites, yeah, I'm sure 821 00:50:01,400 --> 00:50:04,240 I'd take a few pictures, but I wouldn't be like immersed on my 822 00:50:04,240 --> 00:50:06,280 phone while I'm there. I'd be like checking out. 823 00:50:09,120 --> 00:50:11,320 I've been to so many places. I mean, I've been to the Oracle 824 00:50:11,320 --> 00:50:14,560 of Delphi and I lost those pictures because they were on an 825 00:50:14,560 --> 00:50:17,520 iPad that died. And it's like, I don't know, I'm 826 00:50:17,520 --> 00:50:20,000 not, I've never been that bothered because I always live 827 00:50:20,000 --> 00:50:24,920 much more in the moment than needing to record every second. 828 00:50:25,400 --> 00:50:27,120 I'm always enjoying myself too much. 829 00:50:27,560 --> 00:50:31,760 But now, because this has become somewhat my job in a sentence 830 00:50:31,760 --> 00:50:36,080 with my YouTube channel, I have to make a lot more effort. 831 00:50:36,080 --> 00:50:39,320 So I do really do my best to get decent footage. 832 00:50:39,640 --> 00:50:42,480 But sometimes I get back to my hotel and I look and I'm like, 833 00:50:42,480 --> 00:50:45,600 that was rubbish. I made no effort today but I did 834 00:50:45,600 --> 00:50:49,320 enjoy my day so. No, I mean, it look, all that 835 00:50:49,320 --> 00:50:51,520 stuff's cool, you know, definitely check it out. 836 00:50:51,520 --> 00:50:55,880 But it's, it's, yeah, it's like one of those things where you do 837 00:50:55,880 --> 00:50:58,160 want to live in the moment. You don't want to be like a 838 00:50:58,160 --> 00:51:01,400 prisoner to your phone or technology or whatever, and that 839 00:51:01,400 --> 00:51:03,560 there's a reason why you're there to begin with, you know, 840 00:51:03,560 --> 00:51:08,800 So I know you want to wrap it up here in the next 10 minutes. 841 00:51:09,640 --> 00:51:11,560 I'm just trying to think if there's anything we haven't 842 00:51:11,560 --> 00:51:14,000 covered. I don't want to, but I have to. 843 00:51:14,080 --> 00:51:15,560 I have to. I could talk all night. 844 00:51:15,600 --> 00:51:16,760 You. Know, I know, I know. 845 00:51:16,760 --> 00:51:19,440 We'll we'll, I'll have you back on again soon and we'll catch up 846 00:51:19,440 --> 00:51:20,760 on some other stuff. But. 847 00:51:21,440 --> 00:51:24,080 Yeah, I'm going to look up some of the things we talked about. 848 00:51:24,200 --> 00:51:26,440 And now we've given Scully the hypnoschool. 849 00:51:27,480 --> 00:51:29,720 He's going to be Googling the keyhole. 850 00:51:29,880 --> 00:51:34,000 There you go. Yeah, I'm just trying to think 851 00:51:34,000 --> 00:51:37,160 if there's anything I wanted to ask you that I didn't that. 852 00:51:37,520 --> 00:51:40,720 But like I said, we'll have you back on again soon. 853 00:51:40,800 --> 00:51:47,760 And yeah, I mean, I think is in terms of all this stuff, you 854 00:51:47,760 --> 00:51:51,040 know, it's hard, as I mentioned, like you get caught up if you 855 00:51:51,040 --> 00:51:54,680 know, with all the other noise of what other people are doing 856 00:51:54,680 --> 00:51:56,960 sometimes and you kind of get lost on your own. 857 00:51:57,280 --> 00:52:01,760 You get sidetracked or sent on a tangent from your own quest. 858 00:52:01,760 --> 00:52:05,840 And, you know, I'm just trying to get back on on course with my 859 00:52:05,840 --> 00:52:08,680 own stuff and let all that other noise just work itself out. 860 00:52:08,680 --> 00:52:12,400 Like as, as I mentioned, it was, you know, the the last few 861 00:52:12,400 --> 00:52:15,840 months, just watching all the tea, as we called it earlier, 862 00:52:15,840 --> 00:52:17,800 all the drama just kind of like play out. 863 00:52:17,800 --> 00:52:21,480 I saw people get doses of of their own karma and things like 864 00:52:21,480 --> 00:52:24,360 that. So it's just like I've come to 865 00:52:24,360 --> 00:52:27,880 realize I don't need to involve myself in that. 866 00:52:27,960 --> 00:52:32,080 And if I want to take a look and see what's going on, I'll catch 867 00:52:32,080 --> 00:52:33,600 a laugh here and there or whatever. 868 00:52:33,600 --> 00:52:37,840 But yeah, it's not, that's not, you know, I'm not an 869 00:52:37,840 --> 00:52:39,400 archaeologist. It's not my job. 870 00:52:39,400 --> 00:52:43,880 And I'm also not against that. So it's like, you know, I think 871 00:52:43,880 --> 00:52:46,680 you and I are probably somewhat in the middle, like we're open 872 00:52:46,680 --> 00:52:50,400 minded, but we're also like, you know, I use I've been trying to 873 00:52:50,400 --> 00:52:53,400 use philosophy, epistemology, theory of knowledge. 874 00:52:53,400 --> 00:52:56,080 How do we know what we know? Where is your information coming 875 00:52:56,080 --> 00:52:58,080 from? If it's just coming from a 876 00:52:58,080 --> 00:53:01,200 YouTube video, like you have a lot more work to do. 877 00:53:01,200 --> 00:53:02,960 You should be reading books on the subject. 878 00:53:03,360 --> 00:53:05,520 Stuff you don't even it's like stuff you don't like. 879 00:53:05,520 --> 00:53:08,480 Like I read stuff all the time where it's like, I know this is 880 00:53:08,480 --> 00:53:12,760 going to debunk some of the more fantastical ideas I have, but I 881 00:53:12,760 --> 00:53:16,680 have to to look at it like, you can't really be objective if 882 00:53:16,680 --> 00:53:18,320 you're not looking at everything, right? 883 00:53:18,320 --> 00:53:21,520 So exactly. And you know, and I think as 884 00:53:21,520 --> 00:53:27,400 well, you find like sometimes books are written where really 885 00:53:27,400 --> 00:53:34,680 good sources are used and then really with a mix of just 886 00:53:34,840 --> 00:53:37,640 rubbish sources that, you know, and literally just someone's 887 00:53:37,640 --> 00:53:40,520 pulled an idea out of their head and planted it on paper and then 888 00:53:40,520 --> 00:53:44,680 it's being used as a source. That's obviously not a rigid 889 00:53:44,680 --> 00:53:48,160 piece of research, obviously. And no one can argue that no one 890 00:53:48,160 --> 00:53:50,040 can say that's a rigid piece of research. 891 00:53:50,360 --> 00:53:53,400 And yet they will, they will sit in the say that that's a rigid 892 00:53:53,400 --> 00:53:57,160 piece of research and that they've pulled all these amazing 893 00:53:57,160 --> 00:53:58,560 sources together when they haven't. 894 00:53:58,920 --> 00:54:05,640 So it's, you can make something look robust without it actually 895 00:54:05,640 --> 00:54:08,320 being robust. It requires people to sit there 896 00:54:08,360 --> 00:54:12,320 and sift through the evidence. And what I like as amateurs is 897 00:54:12,320 --> 00:54:15,520 that we can take an interdisciplinary approach and 898 00:54:15,520 --> 00:54:18,040 we can pull information from different areas. 899 00:54:18,320 --> 00:54:21,120 So if someone says to me, what do you think about this site in 900 00:54:21,120 --> 00:54:25,000 Italy, for example, do you think it was really this, that or the 901 00:54:25,000 --> 00:54:27,600 other? Well, I'll have a look. 902 00:54:27,680 --> 00:54:29,960 I'll tell you what I think. So like there's this, there's 903 00:54:29,960 --> 00:54:32,720 this natural rock rock formation in Sicily that some people think 904 00:54:32,720 --> 00:54:36,880 is a megalithic stone circle that's astronomically aligned. 905 00:54:38,160 --> 00:54:42,200 And I mean, it really doesn't take long to find out that it's 906 00:54:42,200 --> 00:54:45,640 highly unlikely. This is no artifacts found at 907 00:54:45,640 --> 00:54:48,840 the site. The rocks don't look worked. 908 00:54:48,880 --> 00:54:53,360 There's no tool marks. I mean, the astronomical 909 00:54:53,360 --> 00:54:56,680 alignments are quite rough and coincidental. 910 00:54:58,040 --> 00:55:00,320 You know what I mean? It it doesn't take much and you 911 00:55:00,320 --> 00:55:03,080 could, you know, find some papers on that area and what 912 00:55:03,080 --> 00:55:06,200 sort of cultures and civilization or whatever has 913 00:55:06,200 --> 00:55:09,800 been found there over the years. And you can probably find it 914 00:55:09,800 --> 00:55:13,560 wasn't even inhabited until the medieval period by farmers. 915 00:55:14,120 --> 00:55:19,520 So you pull all that information together and then you tell 916 00:55:19,520 --> 00:55:23,000 people what you think and they say, ah, big cover up. 917 00:55:23,000 --> 00:55:27,240 I mean, I mean, if you think it's a big. 918 00:55:27,280 --> 00:55:28,600 Cover then I can't. Really. 919 00:55:29,200 --> 00:55:32,080 I can't give me the evidence. Don't just keep saying that 920 00:55:32,080 --> 00:55:34,160 because then. You the cover up stuff is for, 921 00:55:34,160 --> 00:55:37,840 for the ancient stuff. It's very bizarre to me because 922 00:55:37,840 --> 00:55:41,360 it's like, what do you, what would these archaeologists have 923 00:55:41,360 --> 00:55:43,600 to gain if anything would make them famous if they found 924 00:55:43,600 --> 00:55:45,840 something insane? You know what I'm saying? 925 00:55:45,840 --> 00:55:50,480 Like that would be the carte blanche for any sort of 926 00:55:50,560 --> 00:55:53,360 researcher that's researching this stuff, you know? 927 00:55:53,840 --> 00:55:57,360 So I don't understand that from like a logic standpoint. 928 00:55:57,760 --> 00:56:01,800 I understand there's real conspiracies from time to time. 929 00:56:01,800 --> 00:56:04,880 I understand that political things get weird and under, but 930 00:56:04,880 --> 00:56:08,080 we're talking about like rocks in the ground that have, you 931 00:56:08,080 --> 00:56:12,200 know, we're part of society at the time or whatever. 932 00:56:12,200 --> 00:56:17,000 So I don't know that. Again, I try and just apply 933 00:56:17,000 --> 00:56:18,920 epistemology. How do we know what we know? 934 00:56:18,920 --> 00:56:21,200 Theory of knowledge? Where is this information coming 935 00:56:21,200 --> 00:56:22,760 from? If you're going to have a debate 936 00:56:22,760 --> 00:56:26,200 with me and your best sources, somebody talking on YouTube, 937 00:56:26,440 --> 00:56:29,360 which is what we're doing now, I wouldn't have somebody take what 938 00:56:29,360 --> 00:56:32,520 I'm saying and be like, see he's the end all be all or see 939 00:56:32,520 --> 00:56:35,600 Laura's the end all be all. No, you read the, you read the 940 00:56:35,600 --> 00:56:37,880 scientific papers. Yeah, you can look at the 941 00:56:37,880 --> 00:56:39,960 mysterious stuff too. Nobody's saying don't look at 942 00:56:39,960 --> 00:56:42,920 the mysterious stuff, but don't pretend like that's the end all 943 00:56:42,920 --> 00:56:46,240 be all solution answer to everything because you've got 944 00:56:46,240 --> 00:56:47,880 to. Take a proper approach. 945 00:56:47,960 --> 00:56:49,960 I mean, and if you want to believe something, then just 946 00:56:49,960 --> 00:56:52,280 accept that you're just believing something too. 947 00:56:52,280 --> 00:56:54,440 You don't have to debate other people about it. 948 00:56:54,440 --> 00:56:55,520 You know, just be like, oh, it's a. 949 00:56:55,520 --> 00:56:58,720 Religion to you? Yeah, when you start fringe 950 00:56:58,720 --> 00:57:01,160 stuff and energies, there's really no proving it. 951 00:57:01,160 --> 00:57:06,080 So then you may as well just say this is quite unique to my kind 952 00:57:06,080 --> 00:57:09,320 of worldview. Well, then we talk about telos 953 00:57:09,320 --> 00:57:13,720 teleology and why, right? So it's like you can have 954 00:57:14,800 --> 00:57:17,840 science is really good at describing how things work, but 955 00:57:17,840 --> 00:57:21,280 it's not good at describing why. And I think the big thing people 956 00:57:21,280 --> 00:57:24,760 want to look at is why. But why might be a human 957 00:57:24,760 --> 00:57:28,920 invention. Why might be, you know, what the 958 00:57:28,920 --> 00:57:32,480 ancient Greeks were fighting about, you know, teleology back 959 00:57:32,480 --> 00:57:33,960 in the day and everything like that. 960 00:57:33,960 --> 00:57:37,800 So it's just it comes, it all comes back full circle. 961 00:57:37,800 --> 00:57:40,480 But at the end of the day, we all just got to do our best. 962 00:57:40,480 --> 00:57:43,600 And if you want to have a dialogue or a dialogue, you 963 00:57:43,600 --> 00:57:47,960 know, dialectic, you should. But just be respectful, be 964 00:57:47,960 --> 00:57:51,360 civil, be mindful. And that's I guess my advice 965 00:57:51,360 --> 00:57:54,080 with these topics. I also think we everyone goes a 966 00:57:54,080 --> 00:57:56,480 bit too broad. I think you have to take one 967 00:57:56,480 --> 00:58:00,440 subject, like for example, this monument in Sicily, and if I 968 00:58:00,440 --> 00:58:04,920 pull out all the data on that site, all of it, and I tell you 969 00:58:05,120 --> 00:58:08,240 it's not to sight, it's a natural formation, then you give 970 00:58:08,240 --> 00:58:11,600 me all your data and then we see what we've got. 971 00:58:11,600 --> 00:58:13,920 But it never goes like that. We know it doesn't go like that. 972 00:58:14,080 --> 00:58:19,480 It it goes around in these rhetoric drama circle. 973 00:58:19,840 --> 00:58:24,240 It's just who shouts the loudest and is the most dramatic. 974 00:58:24,680 --> 00:58:28,400 And that's the problem, I think. Or who paid for the most bots 975 00:58:28,400 --> 00:58:31,840 and trolls online kind. Of yeah, I really think so. 976 00:58:33,080 --> 00:58:37,160 But yeah, that would be the simplest approach is OK, I have 977 00:58:37,160 --> 00:58:39,760 an open mind. Maybe it is an astronomically a 978 00:58:39,760 --> 00:58:41,960 limestone circle like Stonehenge. 979 00:58:42,240 --> 00:58:44,920 Let's have a look. But if I pull out all the data 980 00:58:44,920 --> 00:58:47,440 and there's just not one piece of data and then you're going to 981 00:58:47,440 --> 00:58:51,920 say ah, because the information got lost or they didn't dig deep 982 00:58:51,920 --> 00:58:54,000 enough or they're covering it up. 983 00:58:54,000 --> 00:58:57,320 They whoever they are, I mean, you know, there's thousands of 984 00:58:57,320 --> 00:59:00,240 archaeologists heritage. Aliens, Laura. 985 00:59:01,520 --> 00:59:07,480 Cultural heritage units, I mean, that would be a lot of people 986 00:59:07,600 --> 00:59:11,360 that have to be covering it up. Dude, the the aliens came down, 987 00:59:11,360 --> 00:59:14,840 they pulled out the men in black device, they erased our minds 988 00:59:14,840 --> 00:59:16,400 and then. They went that can be the only 989 00:59:16,400 --> 00:59:19,120 way that they've got the control over thousands of 990 00:59:19,160 --> 00:59:20,920 archaeologists. That's what they did. 991 00:59:21,640 --> 00:59:23,840 They did. Worldwide, I mean. 992 00:59:23,880 --> 00:59:26,640 And look, you know, I've been, I've been critical of both 993 00:59:26,640 --> 00:59:27,920 sides. You know, early on in the 994 00:59:27,920 --> 00:59:32,000 podcast I was very critical of dogmatic academics and I've 995 00:59:32,000 --> 00:59:36,360 been, now I'm being critical of dogmatic alternative thinkers, 996 00:59:36,360 --> 00:59:40,920 you know, like I, it goes both ways, you know, So I mean, it is 997 00:59:40,920 --> 00:59:44,200 what it is, but at the end of the day, you got to do what you 998 00:59:44,200 --> 00:59:47,920 got to do and be honest with yourself, be honest with other 999 00:59:47,920 --> 00:59:52,280 people and that's what it is so. Yeah, exactly. 1000 00:59:52,280 --> 00:59:55,240 No, I completely agree. And I think this stuff that 1001 00:59:55,240 --> 00:59:58,280 you're doing on epistemology is really interesting. 1002 00:59:58,280 --> 01:00:03,480 It really, it gets me thinking in this modern age, what how can 1003 01:00:03,480 --> 01:00:09,080 we pull the fact out of the sea of information that's out there 1004 01:00:09,080 --> 01:00:11,360 and what do we really consider to be fact? 1005 01:00:12,760 --> 01:00:15,720 But what I do like in peer reviewed journals and stuff is 1006 01:00:15,720 --> 01:00:18,480 they always have a lot of, as I call it, caveats. 1007 01:00:18,480 --> 01:00:21,640 They always say we think this, but this, this and this could 1008 01:00:21,640 --> 01:00:22,880 happen. And then we, you know, that 1009 01:00:22,880 --> 01:00:25,640 would change this. This is only an estimated date 1010 01:00:25,640 --> 01:00:27,880 range. They put tons of caveats in it 1011 01:00:27,880 --> 01:00:30,200 that even when you're summarizing it through a video, 1012 01:00:30,240 --> 01:00:33,960 it's hard to summarize because you don't you want to summarize 1013 01:00:33,960 --> 01:00:37,440 it in a succinct way, but you also want to do it justice and 1014 01:00:37,440 --> 01:00:41,000 include the caveats that that particular group of scholars are 1015 01:00:41,080 --> 01:00:45,440 mentioning. But so that makes me think, you 1016 01:00:45,440 --> 01:00:48,760 know, they're not that dogmatic because they always say there's 1017 01:00:48,760 --> 01:00:50,800 room for manoeuvre with this, that and the other. 1018 01:00:51,600 --> 01:00:55,160 But it also depends on the area that we're looking at. 1019 01:00:57,640 --> 01:01:00,400 Well said. Let's wrap it up here. 1020 01:01:01,720 --> 01:01:04,040 Yeah, I think that we'll have you back on again. 1021 01:01:04,040 --> 01:01:06,120 Like I said, sometime in the near future we can talk about 1022 01:01:06,120 --> 01:01:11,160 all that ritual stuff and entheogens and possible finds on 1023 01:01:11,160 --> 01:01:14,840 some of these islands. And yeah, I mean, that's one of 1024 01:01:14,840 --> 01:01:17,240 my favorite things to talk about when when it comes to these 1025 01:01:17,240 --> 01:01:19,600 sites. I'll do some research and I'll 1026 01:01:19,600 --> 01:01:22,720 see not just multi but in generally in the Mediterranean 1027 01:01:22,720 --> 01:01:25,680 if anything interesting is being found, like even Sardinia and 1028 01:01:25,720 --> 01:01:27,440 stuff like that. Sounds good. 1029 01:01:27,440 --> 01:01:32,000 All right, everybody. Well, yeah, go check out Laura's 1030 01:01:32,000 --> 01:01:36,320 channel, which is Megalith Hunter and your Instagram 1031 01:01:37,040 --> 01:01:38,040 channels. What is it? 1032 01:01:38,800 --> 01:01:42,520 Mediterranean. Mystique, All right, so go check 1033 01:01:42,520 --> 01:01:46,200 those out. And yeah, I mean, if you want to 1034 01:01:46,200 --> 01:01:48,200 support Mind Escape, the best way to do is click on the link 1035 01:01:48,200 --> 01:01:52,720 tree link down below. And yeah, we got tons of stuff 1036 01:01:52,720 --> 01:01:54,320 on there. As I mentioned before, I 1037 01:01:54,320 --> 01:01:58,080 separated Masters of Rhetoric, so it'll just be a separate 1038 01:01:59,160 --> 01:02:02,120 philosophy podcast, separate from all this stuff. 1039 01:02:02,120 --> 01:02:03,880 So you can go check that out if you want. 1040 01:02:04,720 --> 01:02:09,360 And I'll be uploading episodes weekly and then probably bi 1041 01:02:09,360 --> 01:02:11,400 weekly once I get to like 6 or 7. 1042 01:02:11,400 --> 01:02:15,360 So but I want to thank everybody and it's good to be back on here 1043 01:02:15,360 --> 01:02:19,440 after small hiatus. And yeah, look for more episodes 1044 01:02:19,440 --> 01:02:23,000 coming up. And yeah, that thank you so 1045 01:02:23,000 --> 01:02:26,800 much, Laura again for coming on and sharing your takes in your 1046 01:02:26,800 --> 01:02:29,680 research. And that's about it. 1047 01:02:29,680 --> 01:02:32,120 We love everybody. Stay safe out there and we'll 1048 01:02:32,120 --> 01:02:33,840 catch you next time. Peace.