1 00:00:16,309 --> 00:00:21,310 Welcome to Mind Escape. Are you ready? 2 00:00:24,550 --> 00:00:28,470 Are you ready to escape your mind? 3 00:00:48,630 --> 00:00:52,030 Hello Mind Escapees, if you have not already, please go check out 4 00:00:52,030 --> 00:00:54,550 my other channel Masters of Rhetoric. 5 00:00:54,550 --> 00:00:57,030 I will have the link down below. It's also part of the Mind 6 00:00:57,030 --> 00:01:00,310 escape link tree link. It's something I'm very 7 00:01:00,310 --> 00:01:04,950 passionate about where I dissect the origins of Western thought 8 00:01:04,950 --> 00:01:09,080 through the pre Socratic thinkers all the way to 9 00:01:09,120 --> 00:01:10,840 Aristotle. And I'm probably going to go 10 00:01:10,840 --> 00:01:12,560 beyond that as well at some point. 11 00:01:12,960 --> 00:01:17,200 But right now I'm focused on the Ionian physicist all the way to 12 00:01:17,200 --> 00:01:19,880 Aristotle. So please support Masters of 13 00:01:19,880 --> 00:01:22,560 Rhetoric. Go check out our YouTube channel 14 00:01:22,560 --> 00:01:24,760 and subscribe. There's tons of shorts on there 15 00:01:24,760 --> 00:01:28,000 already as well as episodes, and there's a bunch of episodes 16 00:01:28,000 --> 00:01:30,840 lined up. I'm on all audio platforms with 17 00:01:30,840 --> 00:01:32,480 it. And if you're on TikTok, 18 00:01:32,480 --> 00:01:36,080 Instagram X, or any of the social media platforms, please 19 00:01:36,080 --> 00:01:37,880 go check out our page on there as well. 20 00:01:38,400 --> 00:01:40,240 I'd really appreciate it. Thank you. 21 00:01:40,880 --> 00:01:45,000 Today I'm joined by friend of the show and amazing Glass 22 00:01:45,000 --> 00:01:49,080 artist Andrew Tischler. Andrew's been on the show many 23 00:01:49,080 --> 00:01:52,880 times from the beginning, pretty much last episode I did with 24 00:01:52,880 --> 00:01:56,280 him, we discussed The Bicameral Mind by Julian James. 25 00:01:56,280 --> 00:01:57,480 Please go check out that episode. 26 00:01:57,480 --> 00:01:59,720 It's phenomenal. And yeah, we're just going to be 27 00:01:59,720 --> 00:02:03,240 talking about Rudolf Steiner today, and please go check out 28 00:02:03,240 --> 00:02:05,400 his work. If you haven't already and 29 00:02:05,400 --> 00:02:08,600 you're on Instagram, go check out Andrew's page at a Tischler 30 00:02:08,919 --> 00:02:11,800 Glass. I will include a link down 31 00:02:11,800 --> 00:02:13,800 below. As always, you can support my 32 00:02:13,800 --> 00:02:15,600 escape by clicking our link tree as well. 33 00:02:15,600 --> 00:02:18,560 So without further ado, here we go. 34 00:02:18,680 --> 00:02:20,680 All right, welcome back on Andrew. 35 00:02:20,680 --> 00:02:21,320 How are you? Good. 36 00:02:22,040 --> 00:02:22,840 Good. How's it going? 37 00:02:23,560 --> 00:02:27,600 Good. Last time we spoke, or had I had 38 00:02:27,600 --> 00:02:31,600 you on, we were discussing The Bicameral Mind by Julian James 39 00:02:31,600 --> 00:02:36,000 and that went over very well. Very interesting topic at very 40 00:02:36,000 --> 00:02:37,880 least. If nothing else, it's an amazing 41 00:02:37,880 --> 00:02:40,800 thought experiment on how to think about consciousness and 42 00:02:40,800 --> 00:02:42,600 language in the past and everything. 43 00:02:45,640 --> 00:02:47,040 Yep. So if anybody doesn't know 44 00:02:47,040 --> 00:02:49,400 Andrew, who's a friend of the show, he's been coming on kind 45 00:02:49,400 --> 00:02:52,520 of since near the beginning of Mind Escape, which started over 46 00:02:53,200 --> 00:02:56,360 8 years ago. And obviously this is a new 47 00:02:56,360 --> 00:03:01,960 chapter, new Telos, but Andrew is a glass artist and a sick one 48 00:03:01,960 --> 00:03:04,440 at that. So go check out his art at a 49 00:03:04,440 --> 00:03:08,520 Tischler glass on Instagram. And I have a few of his pieces, 50 00:03:08,520 --> 00:03:12,520 a couple of his marbles and yeah, amazing fractal work if 51 00:03:12,520 --> 00:03:14,240 you you're into that kind of a thing. 52 00:03:17,200 --> 00:03:21,640 All right, Well, today though, you know, we've talked in the 53 00:03:21,640 --> 00:03:27,200 past about Rudolf Steiner, and I thought we'd revisit that since 54 00:03:27,200 --> 00:03:31,520 I'm running that Masters of Rhetoric philosophy channel and 55 00:03:31,520 --> 00:03:34,480 looking at the origins of Western thought. 56 00:03:35,120 --> 00:03:37,400 You know, I think Rudolf Steiner is an interesting one in the 57 00:03:37,400 --> 00:03:42,720 sense that he's kind of more spiritual, you know, and 58 00:03:42,720 --> 00:03:45,800 actually looked down upon by other philosophers because of 59 00:03:45,800 --> 00:03:47,080 that. So I think that it's an 60 00:03:47,080 --> 00:03:50,000 interesting fox. I think a lot of people maybe 61 00:03:50,000 --> 00:03:53,120 even consider themselves more spiritual than religious 62 00:03:53,120 --> 00:03:57,560 anyways. So yeah, what are your thoughts 63 00:03:57,560 --> 00:04:00,040 on Rudolf Steiner And kind of maybe actually give us a little 64 00:04:00,040 --> 00:04:02,480 bit of a background and then we'll kind of work our way into 65 00:04:02,480 --> 00:04:09,720 his philosophies. You know, he's born in 1860 in 66 00:04:10,000 --> 00:04:13,200 Krawlyovic, which is, I forget what country it is now, but 67 00:04:13,200 --> 00:04:21,640 right in the middle of Europe. And he went to like a technical 68 00:04:21,640 --> 00:04:24,800 high school, which is like a sort of blue collar high school. 69 00:04:25,320 --> 00:04:28,200 So he wasn't necessarily on like a super academic tract. 70 00:04:28,200 --> 00:04:30,040 And his family wasn't rich or anything like that. 71 00:04:30,040 --> 00:04:32,560 His dad worked for the railroad. He grew up in the country, you 72 00:04:32,560 --> 00:04:34,800 know, hiked back and forth to school and all that kind of 73 00:04:34,800 --> 00:04:40,040 thing. And he was already reading Kant 74 00:04:40,360 --> 00:04:45,480 at 16. So at some point, you know, his 75 00:04:45,480 --> 00:04:48,360 academic and intellectual gears just kind of kicked in. 76 00:04:48,360 --> 00:04:51,000 And already in high school, he's thinking about problems of 77 00:04:51,000 --> 00:04:55,360 philosophy and physics, science and all that kind of stuff. 78 00:04:56,200 --> 00:04:58,960 So even though his family wanted him to sort of work as an 79 00:04:58,960 --> 00:05:04,560 engineer, he was able to. He ended up getting a degree in 80 00:05:04,560 --> 00:05:09,520 philosophy and again, studied science the entire time. 81 00:05:09,520 --> 00:05:15,720 And super well-rounded guy. But yeah, background in 82 00:05:15,720 --> 00:05:18,520 philosophy and science really before all the spirituality and 83 00:05:18,520 --> 00:05:21,400 stuff started. So pretty technical guy. 84 00:05:22,960 --> 00:05:27,720 Do you know what the catalyst was from him kind of switching 85 00:05:27,720 --> 00:05:33,440 towards more of the materialist or scientific side of things 86 00:05:33,440 --> 00:05:37,200 into more of the spiritual and non material things? 87 00:05:37,960 --> 00:05:41,360 Yeah, that happened when he was about 40 years old, or at least 88 00:05:41,360 --> 00:05:44,840 publicly. The switch occurred in his 30s. 89 00:05:44,840 --> 00:05:47,720 He spent all of his 30s trying to establish himself as, like, 90 00:05:47,720 --> 00:05:50,840 the heir, honestly, to Nietzsche, as like the eminent 91 00:05:50,840 --> 00:05:55,160 German philosopher or as a sort of very public philosopher. 92 00:05:55,480 --> 00:05:58,520 And because he never managed to attain that level, he didn't get 93 00:05:58,520 --> 00:06:00,400 the sort of positions at universities. 94 00:06:00,400 --> 00:06:02,560 He wasn't read by the people who wanted to be read by. 95 00:06:03,080 --> 00:06:07,160 At 40, he was invited to speak by the Theosophists. 96 00:06:07,560 --> 00:06:10,280 And if you, if your audience knows anything about the 97 00:06:10,280 --> 00:06:12,840 Theosophist, they were, they were the spiritual people in 98 00:06:12,840 --> 00:06:16,240 Europe at the time. And so he had been having his 99 00:06:16,240 --> 00:06:20,320 spiritual experiences, you know, mostly well, most of his life, 100 00:06:20,320 --> 00:06:27,240 but especially in his later 30s. And yeah, so publicly he sort of 101 00:06:27,240 --> 00:06:31,880 pivoted when he was invited to speak and quickly took off in 102 00:06:31,880 --> 00:06:34,560 that scene. Sorry, add on to he had a lot of 103 00:06:34,560 --> 00:06:38,040 friends, you know, that were really annoyed with him and sort 104 00:06:38,040 --> 00:06:42,200 of dismissed him even then when he started lecturing at these 105 00:06:42,200 --> 00:06:45,040 weirdo theosophists about spirituality and didn't 106 00:06:45,040 --> 00:06:48,040 understand why he'd sacrifice his reputation and stuff, you 107 00:06:48,040 --> 00:06:50,280 know? But obviously he had a different 108 00:06:50,280 --> 00:06:57,200 plan. For sure, when you look at I 109 00:06:57,200 --> 00:07:00,080 think most people are that are familiar with them know about 110 00:07:00,080 --> 00:07:06,120 anthroposophy. Can you describe, you know, it's 111 00:07:06,120 --> 00:07:10,440 described as a spiritual science, You know, he's kind of 112 00:07:10,440 --> 00:07:13,160 thinking about a new way to think about these things. 113 00:07:13,560 --> 00:07:17,360 Can you kind of frame that in a way to the audience that they 114 00:07:17,360 --> 00:07:20,360 might, you know, understand or break it down for us, please? 115 00:07:21,000 --> 00:07:24,000 Yeah, I think something I'm thinking about with Steiner is 116 00:07:24,000 --> 00:07:26,040 he's Hap. You know, all of his influence 117 00:07:26,040 --> 00:07:29,240 is occurring right at the industrial revolution. 118 00:07:29,360 --> 00:07:32,240 You know, so that is like, I think something we have to take 119 00:07:32,240 --> 00:07:34,520 in account with Steiner is everything is post industrial 120 00:07:34,520 --> 00:07:36,240 revolution. So people are realizing that 121 00:07:36,640 --> 00:07:38,320 they're getting divorced from nature. 122 00:07:38,320 --> 00:07:40,320 You know, the way that everything, the way that the 123 00:07:40,320 --> 00:07:42,680 world works is changing. Everything is modernizing. 124 00:07:42,680 --> 00:07:48,560 Technology is coming in and sensitive people are starting to 125 00:07:48,560 --> 00:07:51,720 see that that's affecting, you know, the sort of spirituality 126 00:07:51,720 --> 00:07:53,640 that they are feeling in their lives. 127 00:07:53,640 --> 00:07:59,840 And so a lot of Steiner is giving advice for modern people. 128 00:08:01,120 --> 00:08:08,360 A also he's trying to, he sort of, you know, puts himself in 129 00:08:08,360 --> 00:08:11,600 the position to publicize esoteric traditions that had 130 00:08:11,600 --> 00:08:14,000 been kept secret for hundreds of years. 131 00:08:14,640 --> 00:08:18,560 So he's trying to square all at the same time, the Western 132 00:08:18,560 --> 00:08:22,040 philosophical tradition that he learned at school with science 133 00:08:22,040 --> 00:08:27,720 and materialism, with modernity and the industrial revolution 134 00:08:27,720 --> 00:08:33,000 and technology and sort of indigenous, you know, European 135 00:08:33,720 --> 00:08:36,960 spirituality and esoteric traditions. 136 00:08:36,960 --> 00:08:40,919 And I think he's, you know, really plugged into all of those 137 00:08:40,919 --> 00:08:44,200 streams. And he's the figure that's 138 00:08:44,200 --> 00:08:47,880 trying to put them all together for us in a coherent way that 139 00:08:47,880 --> 00:08:49,480 doesn't leave any of those things out. 140 00:08:49,640 --> 00:08:53,560 And it's a huge task. Yeah. 141 00:08:53,560 --> 00:08:55,840 You know, so I was thinking about like, who could I compare 142 00:08:55,840 --> 00:08:58,760 him to? And like the ancient Canon of 143 00:08:58,760 --> 00:09:02,560 philosophy or like the pre Socratics or Plato, Socrates, 144 00:09:02,560 --> 00:09:06,640 Aristotle. And I would say he's kind of 145 00:09:06,640 --> 00:09:10,920 like a more imaginative speculative Plato where Plato 146 00:09:10,920 --> 00:09:13,360 was kind of focused his, even though he had the theory of 147 00:09:13,360 --> 00:09:16,920 forms and this like I would say that's kind of comparable in the 148 00:09:16,920 --> 00:09:21,440 spiritual sense of things. You know, I think Steiner was 149 00:09:21,440 --> 00:09:25,840 more imaginative and just speculated a lot more based on 150 00:09:25,840 --> 00:09:30,320 his meditations and things that he was experiencing in these 151 00:09:30,320 --> 00:09:34,880 deep states of meditation and stuff like that is where Plato 152 00:09:34,920 --> 00:09:38,600 kind of still based things off mathematic and logic or 153 00:09:38,600 --> 00:09:40,880 mathematics and logic and things of that nature. 154 00:09:42,160 --> 00:09:46,160 Well, I have to add that there's some lore with Steiner and if 155 00:09:46,160 --> 00:09:49,680 you if you buy into the lore that one of his reincarnations, 156 00:09:49,760 --> 00:09:53,360 you know, his past lives was as actually Aristotle. 157 00:09:54,840 --> 00:09:59,520 But so then they they place a Goethe, which is Steiner's main 158 00:09:59,520 --> 00:10:02,000 influence as Plato. So then you have this 159 00:10:02,000 --> 00:10:06,040 relationship of Steiner, Goethe, Aristotle, Aristotle, Plato. 160 00:10:06,400 --> 00:10:08,320 But I think you're dead on though, because, you know, 161 00:10:08,520 --> 00:10:11,800 Aristotle was like the great systematizer, which is why 162 00:10:11,800 --> 00:10:16,160 Steiner wrote 10,000 volumes. But because he's got the 163 00:10:16,640 --> 00:10:19,600 foresight of all these other lifetimes, you know, if you 164 00:10:19,600 --> 00:10:23,200 believe again, the lore, he's kind of, he's just integrated so 165 00:10:23,200 --> 00:10:24,800 much. He's integrated Plato and 166 00:10:24,800 --> 00:10:27,880 Aristotle in a way that the two were really not integrated, you 167 00:10:27,880 --> 00:10:31,600 know, in their lifetimes. So yeah, I think I love the, I 168 00:10:31,600 --> 00:10:33,520 think that we have both strong comparisons. 169 00:10:33,760 --> 00:10:35,920 Yeah, that's interesting. I've never heard that before. 170 00:10:36,200 --> 00:10:39,080 And yeah, to, to to add on to that point, because I do know a 171 00:10:39,080 --> 00:10:40,920 lot about the ancient Greek philosophers. 172 00:10:41,360 --> 00:10:45,320 You know, you had Socrates and a student Plato, and they used 173 00:10:45,320 --> 00:10:47,960 mathematics and logic to drive their points home. 174 00:10:47,960 --> 00:10:51,640 And then you kind of evolve into Aristotle and he kind of starts 175 00:10:51,640 --> 00:10:55,360 his own thing where he's using biology to drive his points 176 00:10:55,360 --> 00:10:57,880 home. And I think that that's kind of 177 00:10:57,880 --> 00:11:02,960 where I would say the difference between Aristotle and Steiner 178 00:11:02,960 --> 00:11:08,080 was Aristotle was more concerned about, you know, basically 179 00:11:08,080 --> 00:11:10,640 materialism and biology and things that can be observed 180 00:11:10,640 --> 00:11:14,240 within nature. And as you mentioned, Steiner 181 00:11:14,240 --> 00:11:18,440 was a scientist early on. However, later on it got more 182 00:11:18,440 --> 00:11:21,440 mystical and more mystical. So I think that that he started 183 00:11:21,440 --> 00:11:24,680 to drift further away from those ideas, if you will. 184 00:11:25,160 --> 00:11:28,360 Well, of course he would call it spiritual science, not 185 00:11:28,360 --> 00:11:30,480 mysticism, so. But I have to completely take 186 00:11:30,480 --> 00:11:31,200 your point. Yeah. 187 00:11:31,600 --> 00:11:34,760 Well, I mean, to the to the average based on his own 188 00:11:34,760 --> 00:11:37,720 terminology, but yeah, to the average person listening to him, 189 00:11:37,720 --> 00:11:39,720 there's I don't think you can help. 190 00:11:39,720 --> 00:11:42,680 And the first few times I listened like this dude's super 191 00:11:42,680 --> 00:11:44,240 mystical, you know? So yeah. 192 00:11:45,280 --> 00:11:47,160 Absolutely. Absolutely. 193 00:11:47,520 --> 00:11:51,200 Do you think Steiner's like method of inner observation or 194 00:11:51,200 --> 00:11:52,000 what? What's it called? 195 00:11:52,000 --> 00:11:56,440 Super sensible perception? Do you think it can be 196 00:11:56,440 --> 00:12:00,200 reconciled with Western epistemology, or do you think 197 00:12:00,200 --> 00:12:01,800 that they're kind of incompatible? 198 00:12:03,240 --> 00:12:07,120 I mean, I know that he would view it as like the capstone or 199 00:12:07,120 --> 00:12:11,720 like, yeah, as the capstone of epistemology or the sort of the 200 00:12:11,720 --> 00:12:17,360 bridge or, you know, it's like science is in a is in a, a dead 201 00:12:17,360 --> 00:12:20,480 end. So spiritual science is when you 202 00:12:20,480 --> 00:12:23,880 turn back around like and continue to do science, but not 203 00:12:23,880 --> 00:12:27,560 about the materialism you, you get out of the dead end that 204 00:12:27,560 --> 00:12:30,800 we're in culturally. So I think I would think he 205 00:12:30,800 --> 00:12:34,200 thinks they're compatible or I think vital or necessary to to 206 00:12:34,240 --> 00:12:37,360 each other. Awesome. 207 00:12:38,840 --> 00:12:44,960 As an artist, you know, how do you personally kind of navigate 208 00:12:44,960 --> 00:12:50,960 or figure out? Is there some sort of line 209 00:12:50,960 --> 00:12:54,760 between subjective experience and objective truth? 210 00:12:55,800 --> 00:12:58,920 And do you think that like Steiner's philosophy kind of 211 00:12:58,920 --> 00:13:01,560 bridges that, since he did kind of have both of those 212 00:13:02,200 --> 00:13:05,640 backgrounds and, you know, in terms of science and philosophy? 213 00:13:07,200 --> 00:13:12,320 Yeah, I think bringing in ideals like, you know, he really 214 00:13:12,320 --> 00:13:17,680 discusses a lot about beauty or something like truth or, you 215 00:13:17,720 --> 00:13:19,240 know, these things like love and freedom. 216 00:13:19,680 --> 00:13:23,840 And these are like, to me, great pretty objective ideals, like 217 00:13:23,840 --> 00:13:27,560 things that like beauty can be looked at as a being, you know, 218 00:13:27,560 --> 00:13:31,240 like a divine being. So that's that's an experience 219 00:13:31,240 --> 00:13:34,000 we can all share. However, we all approach it from 220 00:13:34,000 --> 00:13:38,560 our own side of things. So I do think there is the yeah, 221 00:13:38,560 --> 00:13:42,920 that bridge or a relationship between like, you know, looking 222 00:13:42,920 --> 00:13:46,680 at a beautiful piece of art. In a way, art, a beautiful piece 223 00:13:46,680 --> 00:13:50,320 of art is more objective. And then as we share in that 224 00:13:50,320 --> 00:13:53,400 piece of art together, we all kind of come come together in a 225 00:13:53,400 --> 00:13:57,080 sort of a similar direction, which makes it more objective. 226 00:13:57,080 --> 00:13:59,200 So I think I think there is a relationship there for sure. 227 00:14:00,680 --> 00:14:01,880 Interesting I. Hope that makes. 228 00:14:02,080 --> 00:14:05,240 Sense Yeah, no, totally. You know, an aesthetics is kind 229 00:14:05,240 --> 00:14:08,320 of like a weird thing too when you get in like you said, 230 00:14:08,320 --> 00:14:11,760 breaking it down because I could you know, to you to what you 231 00:14:11,760 --> 00:14:13,400 just said is there is truth there. 232 00:14:13,400 --> 00:14:17,000 But then at the same time there's also I of the beholders 233 00:14:17,000 --> 00:14:20,480 type stuff to where somebody can find beauty and things that are 234 00:14:20,760 --> 00:14:24,000 maybe not really aesthetically pleasing to most people. 235 00:14:25,640 --> 00:14:28,360 Yeah. When you're talking about his 236 00:14:28,400 --> 00:14:32,000 ontology, he spoke about spiritual worlds being layered 237 00:14:32,000 --> 00:14:35,800 within physical reality from an ontological perspective. 238 00:14:36,600 --> 00:14:39,920 Do you think that he was describing metaphors for 239 00:14:39,920 --> 00:14:43,160 interstates, or do you think they were literal dimensions of 240 00:14:43,160 --> 00:14:46,720 being it's? A good question. 241 00:14:46,720 --> 00:14:50,200 Yeah. I think that, you know, he'd 242 00:14:50,200 --> 00:14:53,440 want to emphasize the sort of objective reality of these kinds 243 00:14:53,440 --> 00:14:57,680 of beings, you know, So I think that's the primary answer. 244 00:14:57,680 --> 00:15:02,120 But they are found in our experience. 245 00:15:03,320 --> 00:15:06,000 But calling it inner experience, like I think, yeah, I think he 246 00:15:06,000 --> 00:15:08,840 wants to kind of bring it more towards an objective experience 247 00:15:09,400 --> 00:15:13,440 that they are, in a sense, out there or that they are real, 248 00:15:13,880 --> 00:15:18,400 more real even than the sort of Maya of material, the material 249 00:15:18,400 --> 00:15:22,480 world, or that, like you said, that they're just behind and the 250 00:15:22,480 --> 00:15:24,360 cause of all of these material things. 251 00:15:24,360 --> 00:15:26,800 So if you want to account for the whole world, you have to 252 00:15:26,800 --> 00:15:30,320 account for them. Yeah. 253 00:15:30,320 --> 00:15:32,560 That and that they are out there in a sense, yeah. 254 00:15:33,160 --> 00:15:39,800 Does art reveal aspects of his philosophy or philosophy in 255 00:15:39,800 --> 00:15:45,200 general that science can't? And that also could that be kind 256 00:15:45,200 --> 00:15:48,400 of what Steiner was trying to do, if you will? 257 00:15:49,920 --> 00:15:54,360 Yeah, he has a ton to say about art and I could have spent a lot 258 00:15:54,360 --> 00:15:58,560 more time figuring out like all of the things that he wants to 259 00:15:59,320 --> 00:16:01,840 take, you know, put forward. But as far as I can tell, like, 260 00:16:01,840 --> 00:16:06,320 I think he recognizes that art that, you know, having an 261 00:16:06,320 --> 00:16:09,720 experience with a piece of art in a way, is a, a good 262 00:16:09,720 --> 00:16:12,560 preparatory stage for spiritual experiences. 263 00:16:12,560 --> 00:16:16,760 And that we can have an experience with a, a piece of 264 00:16:16,760 --> 00:16:19,560 art that is like, again, very different than we can have with 265 00:16:19,560 --> 00:16:21,960 an experience of maybe a scientific experiment or a 266 00:16:21,960 --> 00:16:25,360 scientific theory or scientific ideas like that. 267 00:16:25,520 --> 00:16:28,000 That there's a power in art, just like there's a power in, 268 00:16:28,040 --> 00:16:30,080 you know, like something like music or all of the different 269 00:16:30,080 --> 00:16:33,520 forms of art that has to be felt and experienced. 270 00:16:33,520 --> 00:16:36,640 And that he that it is preparatory for more spiritual 271 00:16:36,640 --> 00:16:40,200 types of experiences in a really unique and important way. 272 00:16:44,160 --> 00:16:51,200 Interesting, interesting. When you look at teleology, his 273 00:16:51,200 --> 00:16:55,240 teleology, which means purpose or meaning. 274 00:16:55,240 --> 00:16:58,520 And as I've discussed, this is new telos. 275 00:16:58,520 --> 00:17:05,880 Now, he emphasized that humanity had kind of like a spiritual 276 00:17:05,880 --> 00:17:10,760 purpose or a telos that was tied to freedom and consciousness. 277 00:17:11,359 --> 00:17:16,920 Do you find that compelling or does that kind of can that 278 00:17:16,920 --> 00:17:21,920 become too prescriptive? Well, yeah, that's a good 279 00:17:21,920 --> 00:17:23,760 question. That's, that's a good point. 280 00:17:24,200 --> 00:17:27,520 I I think the reason I love Steiner is that he's emphasizing 281 00:17:27,520 --> 00:17:30,200 freedom. And it's actually, it can feel 282 00:17:30,200 --> 00:17:33,920 like a contradiction is that how can you have something 283 00:17:33,920 --> 00:17:37,320 purposeful that's also free? And I think that's the beauty in 284 00:17:37,320 --> 00:17:40,840 Steiner's system and the way he defines freedom and purpose and 285 00:17:40,840 --> 00:17:45,080 all these things is that you can have, you know, we can fail at 286 00:17:45,080 --> 00:17:47,240 our purpose. So there's a, you can have a 287 00:17:47,240 --> 00:17:49,400 purpose for something and it cannot reach that purpose. 288 00:17:49,400 --> 00:17:51,440 And so to me, it's very compelling. 289 00:17:52,720 --> 00:17:56,080 It would be sad to think that we are either sort of ignorant 290 00:17:56,080 --> 00:17:58,680 observers or unattached observers. 291 00:17:58,680 --> 00:18:00,720 You know, we're clearly here and we're conscious. 292 00:18:00,760 --> 00:18:05,440 And so like a life without a purpose is like an odd idea, a 293 00:18:05,440 --> 00:18:08,680 very modern idea. But I also don't want to be 294 00:18:08,680 --> 00:18:10,920 compelled to a purpose. I don't want to be a slave to 295 00:18:10,920 --> 00:18:14,200 God or, or to some, you know, like whoever. 296 00:18:14,440 --> 00:18:17,400 'S and, and to that point too. So you said that's kind of what 297 00:18:17,400 --> 00:18:20,800 you know, even if you took it super far, like some sort of 298 00:18:20,800 --> 00:18:24,480 nihilistic or, you know, one of the ancient sophists, like 299 00:18:24,480 --> 00:18:27,760 gorgeous or something and just take it to the absolute limit 300 00:18:28,040 --> 00:18:30,960 that like you said, like nothing means anything or something 301 00:18:30,960 --> 00:18:35,040 along those lines. And we're just cogs in this 302 00:18:35,040 --> 00:18:38,920 machine. I kind of always come back to 303 00:18:38,920 --> 00:18:41,200 kind of what you said, like we are here, we are conscious, 304 00:18:41,200 --> 00:18:45,960 we're able to observe. So right there kind of indicates 305 00:18:45,960 --> 00:18:49,880 at least some level, even if it's a biological level of 306 00:18:49,880 --> 00:18:52,840 surviving or or being alive or whatever. 307 00:18:53,800 --> 00:18:58,240 But I don't think you can arrive at that until you absolutely 308 00:18:58,240 --> 00:19:04,480 entertain, you know, like a a Cartesian doubt or take it to 309 00:19:04,480 --> 00:19:08,200 this level of like actually considering that that might be 310 00:19:08,200 --> 00:19:10,200 the case, right? Yeah. 311 00:19:10,200 --> 00:19:13,480 And I just, again, I get so stuck on Steiner because there 312 00:19:13,480 --> 00:19:16,360 are critics of Steiner who will look at his early life when he 313 00:19:16,360 --> 00:19:18,160 was in his 20s and like late teens. 314 00:19:18,600 --> 00:19:21,480 You know, he, he was a huge fan of Nietzsche and he was a fan of 315 00:19:21,480 --> 00:19:27,560 people like Max Sterner who are kind of, you know, absurdists or 316 00:19:27,560 --> 00:19:33,160 nihilists or, and he like, you know, anti spiritual, like Max 317 00:19:33,160 --> 00:19:35,880 Turner is this I, I, I don't know him that well, but he's 318 00:19:35,880 --> 00:19:39,440 like all about, he's just a sort of free nihilism, like a 319 00:19:39,440 --> 00:19:42,640 precursor to existentialism and just a really radical dude. 320 00:19:42,640 --> 00:19:45,760 And you would never think that if you love Max Turner and you 321 00:19:45,760 --> 00:19:48,920 love Nietzsche, like, you know, to, to come out and say some of 322 00:19:48,920 --> 00:19:50,360 the things that Steiner went on to say. 323 00:19:50,360 --> 00:19:52,240 And it feels like this huge contradiction. 324 00:19:52,240 --> 00:19:55,640 But Steiner is able to see like the beauty, like you're saying, 325 00:19:55,640 --> 00:19:59,360 you have to pass through these dark perspectives of and again, 326 00:19:59,360 --> 00:20:01,680 even in the philosophy of freedom, like he's very clear 327 00:20:01,680 --> 00:20:05,160 that we as soon as you're born, you have no predestined purpose. 328 00:20:05,560 --> 00:20:07,160 You have to give yourself a purpose. 329 00:20:07,160 --> 00:20:08,480 You have to decide upon a purpose. 330 00:20:08,480 --> 00:20:11,200 So you have to go through purposelessness and really feel 331 00:20:11,200 --> 00:20:13,360 what that means. I I I think you're exactly right 332 00:20:14,920 --> 00:20:17,560 to go through that kind of muck and then discover purpose for 333 00:20:17,560 --> 00:20:18,600 yourself. I think. 334 00:20:18,720 --> 00:20:20,680 Yeah, that's the essence of the modern life, right? 335 00:20:21,120 --> 00:20:23,160 What did he ever say anything about? 336 00:20:23,160 --> 00:20:26,320 Some sort of objective purpose in terms of like, you know, 337 00:20:26,320 --> 00:20:29,440 we're talking about purposeless and creating your own purpose. 338 00:20:29,440 --> 00:20:32,280 And I think that that's kind of where a lot of people would 339 00:20:32,280 --> 00:20:35,080 probably arrive at today. Like if you asked, is there an 340 00:20:35,080 --> 00:20:37,960 objective purpose to humanity? I think a lot of people would 341 00:20:37,960 --> 00:20:42,120 say we create our own purpose. But did he have anything to say 342 00:20:42,120 --> 00:20:48,080 about some sort of actual reality or actual like objective 343 00:20:48,080 --> 00:20:51,720 purpose for humanity? Yeah, I mean, I, I think the 344 00:20:51,720 --> 00:20:56,920 simple answer is like is yes, despite our freedom, like there 345 00:20:56,920 --> 00:21:01,080 is a plan for humanity. And I I just think the easiest 346 00:21:01,080 --> 00:21:03,560 answer and the reason I can give it so easily is that the like 347 00:21:03,560 --> 00:21:08,080 the plan is love or like, you know, if you think of if I just 348 00:21:08,080 --> 00:21:10,240 like I'm imagining the person you're talking about, like, OK, 349 00:21:10,280 --> 00:21:12,800 there's no set purpose. I'm going to give my life 350 00:21:12,800 --> 00:21:14,720 purpose. Well, if you're really, really 351 00:21:14,720 --> 00:21:19,480 serious, like you have to decide like, OK, you know, I can, I can 352 00:21:19,480 --> 00:21:21,440 be a real estate agent. I can sell a bunch of people 353 00:21:21,440 --> 00:21:22,720 houses. And that's my purpose. 354 00:21:22,720 --> 00:21:24,960 And it's like, but, you know, as a philosopher, it's like, well, 355 00:21:24,960 --> 00:21:26,480 does that hold water? Right. 356 00:21:26,480 --> 00:21:31,160 So as you go about the process of defining the purposes in your 357 00:21:31,160 --> 00:21:34,000 life, like you, you know, this is like the beautiful thing 358 00:21:34,000 --> 00:21:36,880 about philosophy is that like, there are only so many good 359 00:21:36,880 --> 00:21:40,800 answers. And we tend to come to them on 360 00:21:40,800 --> 00:21:44,840 our own and that they can line up often with what then Steiner 361 00:21:44,840 --> 00:21:48,400 might say is this plan. And then again, it's the plan is 362 00:21:48,400 --> 00:21:51,680 that a bunch of spirits decide on their own that they want to 363 00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:54,600 become more loving. And so it's a kind of a it, it 364 00:21:54,600 --> 00:21:57,640 feels like a, a kind of catch 22 or even a contradiction or like 365 00:21:57,640 --> 00:22:00,960 he's having it both ways. But I, I don't know. 366 00:22:01,040 --> 00:22:04,000 I think even those people that want to go about their own way, 367 00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:06,040 they end up in the same point is that they want to be loving 368 00:22:06,040 --> 00:22:07,320 people and free people. And. 369 00:22:07,440 --> 00:22:12,200 Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I, I try and 370 00:22:12,840 --> 00:22:16,520 understand my own cognitive biases and weed them out as much 371 00:22:16,520 --> 00:22:19,560 as I can. But if you really, really go 372 00:22:19,560 --> 00:22:21,920 deep into it and you've really thought about this, if you 373 00:22:21,920 --> 00:22:25,560 applied all the logical fallacies, considered all the 374 00:22:25,560 --> 00:22:28,800 cognitive biases, like there's almost nothing left that makes 375 00:22:28,800 --> 00:22:32,080 us what we are. We are this like beautifully 376 00:22:32,080 --> 00:22:36,800 flawed learning thing, and that's kind of part of it, 377 00:22:36,800 --> 00:22:40,160 right? So it's kind of a weird 378 00:22:40,160 --> 00:22:43,240 dichotomy because we do try and get things right as much as 379 00:22:43,240 --> 00:22:48,080 possible, but at the same time, like I said there, you know, if 380 00:22:48,080 --> 00:22:52,800 you reduced it to absolute nothing, there's really nothing 381 00:22:52,800 --> 00:22:55,680 there, if that makes sense. Yeah. 382 00:22:55,680 --> 00:22:59,000 Well, I think that's again, I think it's, we have to go 383 00:22:59,040 --> 00:23:02,000 through that process and get to that place where we can even ask 384 00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:05,400 like, is there anything like, and from that point of view, you 385 00:23:05,440 --> 00:23:07,360 that's I think you're right, though, I think that's the 386 00:23:07,360 --> 00:23:10,360 Ground Zero for where we start to build purpose is being able 387 00:23:10,360 --> 00:23:13,440 to sit with the idea that maybe there's nothing to any of this. 388 00:23:14,200 --> 00:23:16,920 But that, like you said, it dispels the illusions of like, 389 00:23:17,080 --> 00:23:20,680 you know, of course, like have a family and raise children and 390 00:23:20,680 --> 00:23:23,800 there's biological needs, there's biological purposes and, 391 00:23:23,800 --> 00:23:26,280 you know, sociologicals, societal purposes. 392 00:23:26,280 --> 00:23:29,880 But when you are, you know, into that kind of Buddhism and self 393 00:23:29,880 --> 00:23:32,920 reflection and you start to strip all that away, is there 394 00:23:32,920 --> 00:23:34,720 anything left? And I think what Steiner would 395 00:23:34,720 --> 00:23:37,560 say is that you would discover, well, you first of all, you 396 00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:39,680 know, I think for Steiner, we can get to towards the 397 00:23:39,680 --> 00:23:42,400 epistemology thing too, is you discover the self. 398 00:23:43,560 --> 00:23:46,640 You discover that there's this thing that is consistent. 399 00:23:46,800 --> 00:23:49,000 You know, you meditate, meditate, meditate and all the 400 00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:50,440 outside world is always changing. 401 00:23:50,440 --> 00:23:52,080 And then there's this, this thing that's always there. 402 00:23:52,080 --> 00:23:53,960 It's the self. And then you have to figure out, 403 00:23:53,960 --> 00:23:55,560 well, what is, why is there a self? 404 00:23:55,560 --> 00:23:57,680 What is the self? And I think that's where all the 405 00:23:57,880 --> 00:24:01,240 the things start to flower out of that in a philosophical and 406 00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:04,800 objective way, but also in a sort of internal, subjective, 407 00:24:04,800 --> 00:24:09,560 spiritual way, you know? Yeah, for sure. 408 00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:19,240 In your practice or your techni of being a glass artist, do you 409 00:24:19,240 --> 00:24:22,560 experience art making as some sort of teleological or 410 00:24:22,560 --> 00:24:26,640 purposeful process, moving towards something higher for 411 00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:31,240 yourself or humanity? Or is it more just like open 412 00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:32,880 exploration? Do you get what I'm saying? 413 00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:35,720 Is it like open or is there more to like a fixed end of it? 414 00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:38,960 I mean, I definitely want to be very clear, especially for like 415 00:24:38,960 --> 00:24:41,960 young people and aspiring artists or any, any aspiring 416 00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:45,240 artists at any age is like, there was never a plan for me as 417 00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:48,680 far as my art making with the glass even. 418 00:24:49,080 --> 00:24:52,040 It was never like, I know I'll be more spiritual if I do this 419 00:24:52,040 --> 00:24:53,960 everyday. I didn't have to commit to it. 420 00:24:54,120 --> 00:24:57,600 It definitely felt especially, you know, for, for early on as 421 00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:01,200 I, I only was interested because it was fun and I was exploring 422 00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:04,160 and playing. And then even for a long time, I 423 00:25:04,160 --> 00:25:06,680 would think like, you know, OK, here I am reading all this 424 00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:09,320 philosophy, all the spirituality, and I'm making 425 00:25:09,320 --> 00:25:12,000 this art, but I don't see that they're related. 426 00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:14,440 And I want to, I was sort of jealous of other artists that 427 00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:17,360 could really put beautiful messages to their work. 428 00:25:17,360 --> 00:25:19,760 And I was like, I just make these, you know, these pieces of 429 00:25:19,760 --> 00:25:21,480 glass. And I had friends and family be 430 00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:24,480 like, dude, but like your glass, you're in your glass. 431 00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:26,920 Like these things that you're talking about are there in some 432 00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:29,960 way, which was very relieving. But even then, it wasn't very 433 00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:31,640 conscious that I was putting them there. 434 00:25:31,640 --> 00:25:34,200 It was only later that I realized that I was following an 435 00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:38,040 aesthetic sensibility and that I, you know, I was bringing my 436 00:25:38,120 --> 00:25:40,480 whole self into what I was choosing to make. 437 00:25:40,800 --> 00:25:43,280 And that sort of put me in a certain direction and my work 438 00:25:43,280 --> 00:25:47,000 looked a certain way. And so I started to realize 439 00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:50,800 slowly as I stuck with it, that it was becoming, you know, a 440 00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:55,320 practice. And that the play, which is easy 441 00:25:55,320 --> 00:25:58,000 to do is what I want to emphasize is that find stuff 442 00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:00,120 that's fun and that you play with. 443 00:26:00,120 --> 00:26:03,320 And it starts as play. But you know, as it continues to 444 00:26:03,320 --> 00:26:05,200 grow, it can become more of a practice. 445 00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:07,400 And I think it does. I, I, I wouldn't, I, I don't, I 446 00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:10,680 don't want, I want to demystify it a little bit because if you 447 00:26:10,760 --> 00:26:13,640 start out with such a lofty goal, it might become like hard 448 00:26:13,640 --> 00:26:16,320 to even approach it. But when it starts as play and 449 00:26:16,320 --> 00:26:20,760 then grows into that, But I, I, and again, like, yeah, not not 450 00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:22,360 doing it on purpose, but I think you're absolutely right. 451 00:26:22,360 --> 00:26:25,840 I do think it becomes a practice and starts to sort of prep 452 00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:29,440 again, preparatory stages for meditative and spiritual 453 00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:31,960 experiences. So I think it's a great point. 454 00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:34,240 Interesting. Yeah. 455 00:26:34,240 --> 00:26:39,360 And so obviously, I mean, I'm not a glass artist, but I have 456 00:26:39,360 --> 00:26:42,760 been a consumer of a lot of glass art in my ears. 457 00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:48,760 It's kind of a dog eat dog community. 458 00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:52,160 There's a lot of cool people, there is a lot of crossover 459 00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:53,760 people collaborating, things like that. 460 00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:57,000 But then there is this element of like, oh, this dude stole my 461 00:26:57,000 --> 00:27:01,680 technique or this dude's, you know, taking something that was 462 00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:04,120 like a famous technique and kind of making, you know, like 463 00:27:04,120 --> 00:27:09,160 there's a lot of that kind of a a vibe too. 464 00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:12,520 I mean not to get too off topic but I was just wanted to hear 465 00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:15,680 your thoughts on that. Yeah, I think that's just a 466 00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:18,600 reflection of the world that we live in and the society we live 467 00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:20,120 in. And you know, we're in this 468 00:27:20,120 --> 00:27:23,520 hyper capitalist sort of collapsing society where I 469 00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:26,280 always just imagined a world where if we all had our basic 470 00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:30,040 resources and we, we didn't need to fight for everything, then 471 00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:32,280 there wouldn't be those people that need to RIP off someone 472 00:27:32,280 --> 00:27:34,760 'cause they got to feed their kid or their dog or their selves 473 00:27:34,760 --> 00:27:37,080 or whatever. And I, I think it's a reflection 474 00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:39,600 of the society that we're. In do you think it is tied to 475 00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:41,080 real quick though, not to cut you off? 476 00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:42,720 Do you think it is tied to money though? 477 00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:46,080 Or do you think that like partially it is ego 'cause I can 478 00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:50,520 say from like as being a musician too that I can speak 479 00:27:50,520 --> 00:27:54,880 to, you know, if you take somebody's like riff or 480 00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:59,560 something like that, you know, there's an ego thing tied to it 481 00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:02,720 where it's not necessarily about how many records or plays or 482 00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:05,640 anything like that. It's like I'm the one I want to 483 00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:09,520 be known for this and less about the actual monetary side of it. 484 00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:12,680 Yeah, it's a great point. I mean, I'm thinking of now like 485 00:28:12,680 --> 00:28:15,600 skateboarding, like I heard just recently someone say like, look, 486 00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:19,160 if I can, if, if someone can just like figure out how I'm 487 00:28:19,160 --> 00:28:21,600 doing it and they can recreate it in like 2 days. 488 00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:24,760 Well, then what I was doing is only two days worth of skill. 489 00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:27,320 So maybe I should do something that's so skilled that they 490 00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:30,640 can't do it. And that the only if you want to 491 00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:33,120 be ego, you know, you can do something that I can show you 492 00:28:33,120 --> 00:28:35,200 100 times and you're not going to get it because you got to, 493 00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:37,480 you know what I mean? That's so I, I kind of respect 494 00:28:37,480 --> 00:28:40,240 that. And it's a tricky thing. 495 00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:43,840 Yeah, yeah, I think, yeah, I think there has to be some of 496 00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:45,760 that. And I it would be really nice to 497 00:28:45,760 --> 00:28:48,800 just be able to give everything away and not have to worry. 498 00:28:50,800 --> 00:28:52,680 Yeah, I think it's probably a bit of both for sure. 499 00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:57,080 But yeah, I just think that the material circumstances effects 500 00:28:57,080 --> 00:28:59,240 everything, right. Like, not to be a Marxist or 501 00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:02,920 whatever, but like even our egos is tied up in the fact that 502 00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:05,320 we're all struggling so much. So yeah, I think they they feed 503 00:29:05,320 --> 00:29:10,080 into each other. Yeah, I, again, I want to say 504 00:29:10,080 --> 00:29:12,760 that I've met a lot of cool people, lots of people that are 505 00:29:12,760 --> 00:29:15,640 against that kind of behavior and thinking and everything. 506 00:29:15,840 --> 00:29:18,880 And actually I will say the most successful people that I've met, 507 00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:24,160 glass artists or whatever in related industries, they've all 508 00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:29,320 been like the best ones are super cool with like 'cause they 509 00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:32,200 know that they can do what you said, which is create something 510 00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:37,640 that takes a lot of skill or maybe a lot of time and effort 511 00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:42,800 as where somebody could copy some crazy technique, you know, 512 00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:44,400 a couple days that make it look great. 513 00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:48,200 But really, is there a soul in that or is it just kind of, you 514 00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:51,800 know, ego based? I mean, that's the point though, 515 00:29:51,800 --> 00:29:55,360 is that I, I always thought that, you know, if you're 516 00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:58,760 skilled enough to be into glass, but your whole aim is to make 517 00:29:58,760 --> 00:30:00,600 money. So you're looking at techniques 518 00:30:00,600 --> 00:30:03,040 that you can figure out which one you can do and sell the 519 00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:04,440 most. I just think like that's all 520 00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:06,280 fine, but you're actually robbing yourself of the 521 00:30:06,280 --> 00:30:08,720 opportunity to have that more spiritual relationship with the 522 00:30:08,720 --> 00:30:11,560 artistic process. I think that's like, I think 523 00:30:11,560 --> 00:30:14,200 it's like, again, if we could all just have, you know, Ubi, 524 00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:17,520 basic income, if you I would give people advice is really the 525 00:30:17,520 --> 00:30:19,520 thing to focus on is that spiritual aspect. 526 00:30:19,520 --> 00:30:23,360 And and that will bring you up in the rest of the elements of 527 00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:25,200 life too. But people are often not are too 528 00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:28,600 worried about material stuff to to believe that that can work or 529 00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:31,000 that have faith in that. And but I just think that's it 530 00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:32,920 is that they're missing an opportunity to sort of to have 531 00:30:32,920 --> 00:30:35,880 this relationship that grows into something more. 532 00:30:37,560 --> 00:30:38,640 Yeah. Awesome. 533 00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:44,120 So Steiner saw art as kind of like a bridge to the spiritual 534 00:30:44,120 --> 00:30:46,240 world. Do you think that there's still 535 00:30:46,240 --> 00:30:51,240 kind of this valuable role for art being spiritually tied in 536 00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:54,880 the modern world, or do you think that it's, you know, too 537 00:30:54,880 --> 00:30:57,520 far gone in that regard to salvage that? 538 00:30:58,160 --> 00:31:00,360 No, I mean, I'm kind of an optimist. 539 00:31:00,360 --> 00:31:05,640 So I think the more things get difficult, the more we need art 540 00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:10,760 and the the things that bring us back to nature and to 541 00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:15,040 spirituality. It's just what's fascinating. 542 00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:16,760 Yeah. And so Steiner's whole thing is 543 00:31:16,760 --> 00:31:20,880 to be really aware of all of the problems with modern society, 544 00:31:20,880 --> 00:31:26,480 all of the sort of, yeah, things that can make us less spiritual. 545 00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:29,280 But he wants us to develop our arts and our spirituality to be 546 00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:31,680 so robust that it overcomes all those things. 547 00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:34,600 So the answer is always that it needs to be more robust. 548 00:31:34,600 --> 00:31:38,240 If if anything, it's like, let's make better art more affecting 549 00:31:38,240 --> 00:31:40,240 art. So really the question is like 550 00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:43,240 what? What kind of art can match the 551 00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:46,720 state of the world that we're in and help us overcome the other 552 00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:52,040 problems in it? He described colors as almost 553 00:31:52,040 --> 00:31:55,360 like a living thing or like an autonomous force. 554 00:31:55,600 --> 00:32:00,040 Do you think that that's useful or do you think about that at 555 00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:02,880 all when you're you're making glass or have you thought about 556 00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:07,120 that? I think it is useful. 557 00:32:09,080 --> 00:32:13,080 Again, I, I, I have such an intuitive approach that I, when 558 00:32:13,080 --> 00:32:18,520 I try to cram in like, you know, clever ideas, it just, I 559 00:32:18,520 --> 00:32:21,200 struggle with that, which is why I envy artists that can do that. 560 00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:24,480 So for my own practice, it's hoping that the intuitive 561 00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:26,360 process brings about this the right. 562 00:32:26,480 --> 00:32:29,040 Yeah, I think the more I grow as an artist, I'd like to be more 563 00:32:29,040 --> 00:32:32,320 intentional. But as far as his ideas about 564 00:32:32,360 --> 00:32:36,000 the sort of autonomous nature of color, I I do think that they're 565 00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:38,040 really interesting. And I think, again, they're 566 00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:42,160 relevant because our culture has kind of left even those 567 00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:45,040 experiences behind, which is an interesting question, is we we 568 00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:48,520 no longer experience color the way that sign describes people 569 00:32:48,520 --> 00:32:52,000 experiencing it in past times. And we've also forgotten that it 570 00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:54,440 has that effect or if anything, it's just gone to such a 571 00:32:54,440 --> 00:32:57,600 subconscious level. But be giving the centers so 572 00:32:57,600 --> 00:33:00,240 much about freedom and bringing things back to the conscious. 573 00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:03,000 You know, it makes sense that he's trying to remind us of 574 00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:06,320 these things that yeah, about color and and everything else. 575 00:33:07,000 --> 00:33:11,840 So I mean, when Mind Escape started and it was super woo, 576 00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:17,520 you know, Now I've obviously trended it more philosophical 577 00:33:17,520 --> 00:33:21,360 and I'm running masters rhetoric, a little bit more 578 00:33:21,360 --> 00:33:25,880 academic style stuff. I mean, my, my views have 579 00:33:25,920 --> 00:33:31,000 dramatically evolved over doing this podcast and doing so I 580 00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:33,920 think, you know, has made me a better, more understanding 581 00:33:33,920 --> 00:33:37,080 person of the world and, you know, even loving. 582 00:33:37,320 --> 00:33:43,080 But at the same time, I think that, you know, when I look at 583 00:33:43,080 --> 00:33:46,440 his philosophy, some of the stuff's pretty out there. 584 00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:48,560 Like the, you know, I don't know if you've, there's a lecture 585 00:33:48,560 --> 00:33:53,000 where he's talking about like architecture and how each 586 00:33:53,080 --> 00:33:57,000 ancient Egyptian architecture is kind of like, you know, very 587 00:33:57,520 --> 00:34:02,200 tall columns and open ceilings. And, you know, it evolves, you 588 00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:05,680 know, kind of slowly over time. And then he gets to the Greeks 589 00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:07,440 and kind of goes through time like that. 590 00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:11,360 And, you know, and he also talks about like Atlantis and Lemuria. 591 00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:16,400 And look, I mean, I've had this debate with some of the ancient, 592 00:34:17,199 --> 00:34:21,639 you know, fringe people or the pseudo archaeology fans or 593 00:34:21,639 --> 00:34:25,159 whatever about Atlantis. Initially I thought maybe, you 594 00:34:25,159 --> 00:34:27,800 know, there's something, but then, you know, 'cause if Troy 595 00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:29,800 was actually found and people didn't think Troy was a real 596 00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:31,800 place. So like, let's look, is there is 597 00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:35,199 there any, you know, but then you read Plato's dialogues and 598 00:34:35,199 --> 00:34:41,080 I've read Plato's dialogues a lot and it just seems like more 599 00:34:41,080 --> 00:34:46,280 of like an allegory for how civilization goes. 600 00:34:46,280 --> 00:34:48,719 So like if we're talking about like allegory of The Cave, well, 601 00:34:48,719 --> 00:34:52,639 that's an allegory to show some sort of paradigm shift or 602 00:34:52,639 --> 00:34:55,920 paradigm shifting event is where Atlantis, I would say is some 603 00:34:55,920 --> 00:34:59,360 sort of allegory for what can happen to a civilization if, if 604 00:34:59,480 --> 00:35:01,800 people aren't aware or careful kind of a thing. 605 00:35:02,560 --> 00:35:05,200 Right. Yeah, it's a tricky one with 606 00:35:05,200 --> 00:35:08,160 Steiner. And I'm also kind of I trip up 607 00:35:08,160 --> 00:35:10,920 on it and I'm fascinated by the question and I'm constantly 608 00:35:10,920 --> 00:35:13,800 asking people in the community for their take on it. 609 00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:19,000 You know, can we square what natural science and material 610 00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:22,200 science has to say about how the planet evolved and how, you 611 00:35:22,200 --> 00:35:27,680 know, just like, you know, the the modern DNAII think Steiner 612 00:35:27,680 --> 00:35:31,600 would have been sort of just too early to get all the insights 613 00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:33,960 the DNA is providing us about the issue of humanity. 614 00:35:34,520 --> 00:35:40,680 So it's there's that side of it. And I, I do, I do have, I still 615 00:35:40,680 --> 00:35:44,240 hold out like a kind of confidence that what Steiner is 616 00:35:44,240 --> 00:35:51,920 describing sort of is a part of the human story of evolution and 617 00:35:51,920 --> 00:35:56,520 that, you know, OK, it's just I I still have sort of a grey area 618 00:35:56,520 --> 00:35:58,840 with that with Steiner about. Was there an island called 619 00:35:58,840 --> 00:36:03,440 Atlantis or El Lumeria? And all this kind of stuff with 620 00:36:03,440 --> 00:36:08,080 Steiner is so rigorous that if you take parts of his system as 621 00:36:08,080 --> 00:36:11,880 like credible, well, they, they inform the rest of the parts. 622 00:36:11,880 --> 00:36:15,560 And so you need, you know, you need ancient Saturn for Steiner 623 00:36:15,560 --> 00:36:18,680 and you need Lumeria to get to ancient Greece and to explain it 624 00:36:18,680 --> 00:36:21,040 all. And so he at least, you know, 625 00:36:21,040 --> 00:36:23,960 you can try to follow the threads about why he's saying 626 00:36:23,960 --> 00:36:26,560 these things had to be there and all that kind of stuff. 627 00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:31,800 But again, I'm with you is that it's easy to take those things 628 00:36:31,800 --> 00:36:35,360 and extrapolate and, and sort of become really entertaining and 629 00:36:35,360 --> 00:36:37,840 how you talk about them and, and have all that occur. 630 00:36:37,840 --> 00:36:42,440 And it sort of gets away from my my through line is that Steiner 631 00:36:42,440 --> 00:36:45,680 is describing the evolution of consciousness. 632 00:36:46,840 --> 00:36:49,320 And so as far as like the material history of those 633 00:36:49,320 --> 00:36:51,800 civilizations, that's a much harder problem. 634 00:36:52,280 --> 00:36:56,040 So I, I, I tend to focus on like how he describes that our 635 00:36:56,040 --> 00:36:58,480 consciousness is evolving through those stages. 636 00:36:58,480 --> 00:37:03,360 And again, that's how I can make sense of it and why they had to, 637 00:37:03,400 --> 00:37:07,040 why he has to postulate such strange steps in the process and 638 00:37:07,040 --> 00:37:09,360 all that kind of stuff. So it's a tricky one with 639 00:37:09,360 --> 00:37:12,040 Steiner. Well, and, you know, you're 640 00:37:12,040 --> 00:37:15,240 talking about Theosophy, Madame Blavatsky. 641 00:37:15,440 --> 00:37:20,480 Like these were mystical people that were kind of in tune with 642 00:37:20,480 --> 00:37:25,160 these, whether they're pseudo archaeology, like we've come so 643 00:37:25,160 --> 00:37:27,080 far. Now we can kind of look at 644 00:37:27,080 --> 00:37:30,800 things from an archaeological standpoint or a scientific 645 00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:36,200 standpoint using scientific method and to where, you know 646 00:37:36,200 --> 00:37:39,200 what he was saying, you know, I'll, I'll compare it to this. 647 00:37:39,200 --> 00:37:41,880 And I'm not saying that like their philosophies or anything. 648 00:37:41,880 --> 00:37:45,000 But when I listen to like a Steiner lecture, it reminds me 649 00:37:45,000 --> 00:37:51,480 of like a manly P Hall or like a Alan Watts style rant where he's 650 00:37:51,480 --> 00:37:56,880 just riffing on, you know, the spirit or spirituality kind of a 651 00:37:56,880 --> 00:37:58,400 thing. It does that make sense or do 652 00:37:58,400 --> 00:38:03,160 you get those vibes? I get it with Steiner though. 653 00:38:03,160 --> 00:38:07,400 You just have to, I, I, you know, with Manly P Hall, he's an 654 00:38:07,400 --> 00:38:11,920 academic, so he's relating ideas he read somewhere else. 655 00:38:12,880 --> 00:38:15,320 Same with Alan Watson. With Steiner, I just have this 656 00:38:15,320 --> 00:38:19,000 impression that he's trying his best to relay direct spiritual 657 00:38:19,000 --> 00:38:22,920 experiences that he had often the night before or whenever 658 00:38:22,920 --> 00:38:25,920 formative experiences. And if with Steiner, you're just 659 00:38:25,920 --> 00:38:32,720 getting direct accounts and I I think that's the difference. 660 00:38:32,960 --> 00:38:38,720 And yeah, he, he's trying to give birth to an entire system. 661 00:38:40,760 --> 00:38:43,120 Yeah. Whereas do people like Manly P 662 00:38:43,120 --> 00:38:46,680 Hall has the you know, he gets to summarize, whereas Steiner's 663 00:38:46,680 --> 00:38:49,080 giving birth piece by piece to this huge system. 664 00:38:50,480 --> 00:38:53,920 So in in that regard to like, you know, you could say, does 665 00:38:53,920 --> 00:38:55,360 that say something about human beings? 666 00:38:55,360 --> 00:38:59,320 So like if you listen to a Rudolf Steiner spiritual 667 00:38:59,320 --> 00:39:04,200 lecture, rant or whatever and you identify with it, obviously 668 00:39:04,200 --> 00:39:06,680 there's some common thread, whether what he's saying, like 669 00:39:06,680 --> 00:39:09,760 if forget Alanis or Lemuria, like just take that out of the 670 00:39:09,760 --> 00:39:13,040 picture. Obviously something he's saying 671 00:39:13,040 --> 00:39:15,160 hits home with you. Do you think that could be tied 672 00:39:15,160 --> 00:39:20,320 to like, maybe our mythological, like storytelling past and that 673 00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:24,280 he's tapping into a part of the imagination where that it is 674 00:39:24,280 --> 00:39:27,600 spiritual? Because it does go back 10s of 675 00:39:27,600 --> 00:39:30,960 thousands, if not longer years, you know? 676 00:39:32,160 --> 00:39:34,760 Yeah, I mean, I can, I can definitely, you know, I, I 677 00:39:34,760 --> 00:39:37,840 speaking to my experiences is that what brings me back time 678 00:39:37,840 --> 00:39:40,640 after time is that he'll drop these Nuggets that I haven't 679 00:39:40,640 --> 00:39:43,880 heard anywhere else that like you're saying, sort of an aha 680 00:39:43,880 --> 00:39:46,760 moment that brings a bunch of pieces together for me. 681 00:39:46,760 --> 00:39:50,760 That sits true with me. And I have to imagine that 682 00:39:50,760 --> 00:39:53,280 that's what people are are coming back to. 683 00:39:53,280 --> 00:39:56,120 I mean, this is a very personal example. 684 00:39:56,120 --> 00:39:59,320 Reminds you if you ever listen to Aesop Rock the really the the 685 00:39:59,360 --> 00:40:01,760 hip hop artist that does all those complicated songs. 686 00:40:02,680 --> 00:40:05,080 And people have asked him, like, you know, it sounds like there's 687 00:40:05,080 --> 00:40:06,640 no meaning to your songs. They're just a bunch of 688 00:40:06,640 --> 00:40:07,960 gibberish. And he says, like, well, if it 689 00:40:07,960 --> 00:40:10,240 was just a bunch of gibberish, why would anyone listen to it? 690 00:40:10,240 --> 00:40:12,360 Like, I'd have to be really clever to get people to listen 691 00:40:12,360 --> 00:40:14,360 to this stuff over and over again if it didn't mean 692 00:40:14,360 --> 00:40:16,360 anything, if it wasn't connecting to something about 693 00:40:16,360 --> 00:40:18,880 their lives. And I suppose Steiner is a bit 694 00:40:18,880 --> 00:40:21,200 like that where it seems like he's just throwing a bunch of 695 00:40:21,200 --> 00:40:23,920 stuff at the wall, but all of a sudden you leave with some kind 696 00:40:23,920 --> 00:40:25,920 of coherence, you know, something that makes sense. 697 00:40:25,920 --> 00:40:26,520 And. Yeah. 698 00:40:26,520 --> 00:40:28,320 So I think that that's what I would, yeah. 699 00:40:31,920 --> 00:40:37,400 Yeah, no, I, I, like I said, I, I, I think that you have to go 700 00:40:37,400 --> 00:40:40,960 into listening to his stuff or reading his stuff with kind of 701 00:40:40,960 --> 00:40:44,280 an open mind. Because even if you're a 702 00:40:44,280 --> 00:40:47,240 spiritual person, there might be ideas that are kind of 703 00:40:47,240 --> 00:40:50,600 conflicting to your own ideas of what spirituality are for sure. 704 00:40:51,640 --> 00:40:56,040 And, and he's his own to, to his own philosophy. 705 00:40:56,040 --> 00:41:00,680 If each person creates their own purpose and his purpose is is 706 00:41:00,680 --> 00:41:04,520 coming through, sharing these direct experiences, that's still 707 00:41:04,520 --> 00:41:07,520 kind of subjective, right? I mean, there might be Nuggets 708 00:41:07,520 --> 00:41:11,320 that tie to humanity or other people or that, you know, some 709 00:41:11,320 --> 00:41:15,800 sort of common thread, but it kind of is still his own thing 710 00:41:15,800 --> 00:41:18,400 too. So I think like we have to with 711 00:41:18,400 --> 00:41:22,440 anybody, you know, I don't know what's going through your head 712 00:41:22,440 --> 00:41:23,480 right now. You know, I know what 713 00:41:23,480 --> 00:41:26,120 consciousness is. I know how I interact with the 714 00:41:26,120 --> 00:41:28,400 world. But at the end of the day, how 715 00:41:28,400 --> 00:41:31,560 my idea of how I think about things might be dramatically 716 00:41:31,560 --> 00:41:34,920 different from, you know, in the internal workings as somebody 717 00:41:34,920 --> 00:41:35,600 else. So. 718 00:41:37,120 --> 00:41:40,920 Yeah, I was having a debate with, you know, another Steiner, 719 00:41:40,920 --> 00:41:44,760 a person that is interested in Steiner and and his his idea was 720 00:41:44,760 --> 00:41:49,160 that Steiner misinterpreted his sort of karmic duty in this 721 00:41:49,160 --> 00:41:52,760 lifetime, that he got the idea that he was supposed to do 722 00:41:52,760 --> 00:41:56,200 objective spiritual research and share it with humanity. 723 00:41:56,400 --> 00:42:00,520 But maybe more of what you're talking about is that Steiner 724 00:42:00,520 --> 00:42:04,720 can can dig out and present all the stuff that's going on in his 725 00:42:04,720 --> 00:42:07,560 spirit, in his soul. And whatever value that has to 726 00:42:07,560 --> 00:42:09,720 us is all the value it has. And it doesn't have to be 727 00:42:09,720 --> 00:42:12,640 considered gospel or truth. And I think that's what he would 728 00:42:12,640 --> 00:42:14,560 say is if it has any value, then good. 729 00:42:14,560 --> 00:42:17,240 But you know, if you're living by it, you're already 730 00:42:17,520 --> 00:42:20,240 contradicting it because it's this is a philosophy of freedom, 731 00:42:20,240 --> 00:42:21,840 not a philosophy of anything else. 732 00:42:21,840 --> 00:42:23,960 And so I think there's something to that. 733 00:42:23,960 --> 00:42:28,800 I think he definitely thought he was giving objective information 734 00:42:29,440 --> 00:42:31,320 and again, he's working within certain traditions. 735 00:42:31,320 --> 00:42:34,400 So he's sharing tradition, you know, information that's been 736 00:42:34,400 --> 00:42:37,600 around for 1000 years that we just wasn't given to scholars or 737 00:42:37,640 --> 00:42:42,960 a public access or whatever. And so it I I understand and 738 00:42:42,960 --> 00:42:46,840 there are certainly many Steiner people anthroposophist that take 739 00:42:46,840 --> 00:42:51,840 him to literally. Yeah, I've I've seen you. 740 00:42:51,840 --> 00:42:55,000 I think, I mean, I don't go much on Facebook pretty much at all 741 00:42:55,000 --> 00:42:57,920 anymore once in a while for like, you know, check out family 742 00:42:57,920 --> 00:43:01,040 stuff, whatever. But I remember for a while I was 743 00:43:01,040 --> 00:43:05,480 watching you comment and some of those like Steiner forums on 744 00:43:05,480 --> 00:43:08,080 there and some of these, some of these you just ask like some 745 00:43:08,080 --> 00:43:10,320 basic question. People would just like flip out. 746 00:43:10,320 --> 00:43:14,400 So it's like while he has a tight knit fan base, I think 747 00:43:14,400 --> 00:43:18,200 some of the people, like anything else, will take 748 00:43:18,200 --> 00:43:23,760 dogmatic approaches to things that are said or gospel if you 749 00:43:23,760 --> 00:43:27,520 will, or something like that. Steiner has a specific issue 750 00:43:27,520 --> 00:43:29,760 where he spoke about almost every topic. 751 00:43:29,760 --> 00:43:32,320 So if you're a gardener, you'll hear about Steiner because of 752 00:43:32,320 --> 00:43:34,080 biodynamics. If you're a teacher, you do with 753 00:43:34,080 --> 00:43:36,000 the Waldorf. If you're an artist, you're here 754 00:43:36,000 --> 00:43:39,200 because of this and that. So people will approach Steiner 755 00:43:39,200 --> 00:43:43,120 from 7000 different angles. And for me, I approached it for 756 00:43:43,120 --> 00:43:47,040 his philosophy. And I, I, I think that's a bit 757 00:43:47,040 --> 00:43:49,320 of a skeleton key. It lets you move a little more 758 00:43:49,320 --> 00:43:52,840 freely through the rest of the material because you, I don't 759 00:43:52,840 --> 00:43:56,000 know, I, it's, I, I feel a little more detached from things 760 00:43:56,000 --> 00:43:58,960 like the biodynamics or Eurythmia or all these, you 761 00:43:58,960 --> 00:44:02,120 know, or again, Atlantis or what he says about vaccines or all 762 00:44:02,120 --> 00:44:05,200 this stuff. Like I, I, I'm, I'm at a sort of 763 00:44:05,200 --> 00:44:09,120 philosophical and a free freedom thinking kind of starting point. 764 00:44:09,120 --> 00:44:11,640 But when you come at it with like in his medicine and you 765 00:44:11,640 --> 00:44:14,800 think that he has to be right about everything, I I just take 766 00:44:14,800 --> 00:44:16,520 for granted. I'm a little bit naive at how 767 00:44:16,520 --> 00:44:18,880 many people in the Steiner circles that I would fight and 768 00:44:18,880 --> 00:44:20,720 disagree with. So yeah. 769 00:44:21,000 --> 00:44:24,120 Well, and, and, and when you here's the thing that I, we're 770 00:44:24,120 --> 00:44:28,160 talking about anybody spiritually related or spiritual 771 00:44:28,160 --> 00:44:32,680 leader or religious or whatever, I think the problem that I 772 00:44:32,680 --> 00:44:36,240 always run into is we're always learning new stuff, right? 773 00:44:36,240 --> 00:44:39,480 So my philosophy is an ever evolving philosophy. 774 00:44:39,480 --> 00:44:42,960 That's, that's not going to change because the second that 775 00:44:42,960 --> 00:44:47,160 changes, if that, if the world ever slows down or just stops, 776 00:44:47,160 --> 00:44:49,920 that would be OK. Maybe we'll talk about it. 777 00:44:49,920 --> 00:44:54,400 But as time goes on, we're constantly learning new things, 778 00:44:54,400 --> 00:44:56,720 new takes. So this idea that there's some 779 00:44:57,160 --> 00:45:00,200 like, I think people get lost in the eternal truth thing. 780 00:45:00,200 --> 00:45:04,040 And I think they think that, oh, this is true 3000 years ago and 781 00:45:04,040 --> 00:45:06,400 it's true now. And that there is Nuggets of 782 00:45:06,400 --> 00:45:10,000 truth that are like that, like from philosophy, whether it's 783 00:45:10,000 --> 00:45:15,600 Socratic method or Platonic thinking or whatever, there are 784 00:45:15,600 --> 00:45:18,960 things within that that yes, they still ring true to this 785 00:45:18,960 --> 00:45:20,160 day. But how do we know that that's 786 00:45:20,160 --> 00:45:22,680 going to ring true 1000 years from now? 787 00:45:22,680 --> 00:45:25,720 How do we know all those ancient thinkers that we identify with 788 00:45:26,000 --> 00:45:30,280 are going to be ringing true with the five next generations 789 00:45:30,280 --> 00:45:32,840 because we discovered something new or whatever, you know what 790 00:45:32,840 --> 00:45:35,000 I'm saying? So it's like, that's the problem 791 00:45:35,000 --> 00:45:38,160 I have with a lot of this stuff, is these people dig their heels 792 00:45:38,160 --> 00:45:41,920 in on a certain person or topic and then they're not willing to 793 00:45:41,920 --> 00:45:46,720 budget or think more deeply. Like if he was the end all be 794 00:45:46,720 --> 00:45:48,960 all, he'd be the end all be all. But we're still here. 795 00:45:48,960 --> 00:45:50,920 We're still learning, we're still figuring things out. 796 00:45:52,280 --> 00:45:54,600 I, I think you really cleared it up there because it gets to the 797 00:45:54,600 --> 00:45:57,520 point of like, why are you engaging with these ideas? 798 00:45:57,520 --> 00:46:01,520 And Austin, fear motivates people and it motivates them in 799 00:46:01,520 --> 00:46:05,480 all these different ways and they fear, you know, when you 800 00:46:05,480 --> 00:46:08,320 have this sort of overwhelming fear of something, you want 801 00:46:08,320 --> 00:46:11,040 certainty. You want to, That's where the 802 00:46:11,040 --> 00:46:14,240 certain, the need for certainty comes in is often I'm kind of 803 00:46:14,240 --> 00:46:17,280 skipping steps, But the root of it all is you're going through 804 00:46:17,280 --> 00:46:18,960 something and you need certainty. 805 00:46:18,960 --> 00:46:22,720 And so you turn to these things for certainty when any, anyone 806 00:46:22,720 --> 00:46:26,840 you turn to and any time you'd use that attitude, you're asking 807 00:46:26,840 --> 00:46:29,280 for trouble because that's the you you want to dig the heels in 808 00:46:29,280 --> 00:46:32,040 because you're afraid of something, you know, and you 809 00:46:32,040 --> 00:46:34,880 have to sort of settle down and you shouldn't. 810 00:46:35,080 --> 00:46:37,840 It's just, it's really dangerous to approach spirituality with 811 00:46:37,840 --> 00:46:39,640 through that fear, through the lens of fear. 812 00:46:39,920 --> 00:46:41,480 And I think that's often what happens. 813 00:46:41,480 --> 00:46:44,760 And, you know, there's all sorts of glowing beacons like Steiner 814 00:46:44,760 --> 00:46:47,560 that people will welcome you in and say we have all these 815 00:46:47,560 --> 00:46:50,200 answers. And when you and your attitude 816 00:46:50,200 --> 00:46:53,280 is 1 of curiosity and open endedness, you don't run into 817 00:46:53,280 --> 00:46:54,880 that problem. And you can walk into the 818 00:46:54,880 --> 00:46:56,480 Steiner circle and you can walk out of it. 819 00:46:56,480 --> 00:47:00,080 And you can walk into, you know, an atheist circle and you can 820 00:47:00,080 --> 00:47:02,840 walk out of it. And I think that's, to me, that 821 00:47:02,840 --> 00:47:05,240 what clears it up is that you have to have the right attitude 822 00:47:05,240 --> 00:47:08,120 to any of these things. Absolutely. 823 00:47:08,120 --> 00:47:10,160 And actually what you said rings true. 824 00:47:10,720 --> 00:47:13,080 Like anybody struggling with like mental health or like, you 825 00:47:13,080 --> 00:47:17,400 know, I had severe OCD, the one of the things causing these 826 00:47:17,840 --> 00:47:23,720 thoughts or these, you know, looping ideas in my own head is 827 00:47:23,720 --> 00:47:29,880 the idea of uncertainty. So like when you take, when you 828 00:47:29,880 --> 00:47:33,880 have like let's say OCD, anybody that has OCD, they want to be 829 00:47:33,880 --> 00:47:37,320 reaffirmed that what they're thinking is either incorrect or 830 00:47:37,320 --> 00:47:40,600 wrong, but then they'll still think about it to a certain 831 00:47:40,600 --> 00:47:42,800 level after that. So it's like what you're saying 832 00:47:42,800 --> 00:47:46,560 has a certain truth to it from a standpoint of like, you know, 833 00:47:46,560 --> 00:47:50,480 mental health and things like that, because we all want 834 00:47:50,480 --> 00:47:56,600 certainty with certain things. However, I think part of this 835 00:47:56,600 --> 00:47:59,560 journey, at least for me, has been embracing the idea of 836 00:47:59,560 --> 00:48:02,960 uncertainty and just accepting that there's things that we 837 00:48:02,960 --> 00:48:07,760 either can't know, won't know, or it's just not in the cards, 838 00:48:07,800 --> 00:48:10,400 you know? So it's accepting that while 839 00:48:10,400 --> 00:48:13,880 also understanding what's going on, if that makes sense. 840 00:48:14,520 --> 00:48:15,440 I love it. Absolutely. 841 00:48:15,960 --> 00:48:17,880 Yeah. And when you can't accept it, 842 00:48:18,040 --> 00:48:21,640 you live in a world that's like, mysterious and wonderful and 843 00:48:21,640 --> 00:48:26,640 open-ended, you know, whereas, yeah, closing down and certain 844 00:48:26,640 --> 00:48:29,440 certainty makes things pretty small and pretty finite. 845 00:48:29,600 --> 00:48:34,120 And yeah, often that illusion gets shattered at some point 846 00:48:34,120 --> 00:48:36,160 because it's just not real. That certainty is. 847 00:48:36,200 --> 00:48:37,200 Yeah. So. 848 00:48:37,640 --> 00:48:42,160 Yeah. And in terms of when you're 849 00:48:42,160 --> 00:48:47,920 looking at things like that, it's, I think most people it's a 850 00:48:47,920 --> 00:48:50,720 potent drug, religion or spirituality. 851 00:48:50,720 --> 00:48:54,120 I remember when I was going through my spiritual awakening 8 852 00:48:54,120 --> 00:48:56,480 years ago when I started mine to skip that was kind of part of 853 00:48:56,480 --> 00:48:59,520 the catalyst for this whole thing and eventually led me kind 854 00:48:59,520 --> 00:49:02,600 of away from the more spiritual things through knowledge and 855 00:49:02,800 --> 00:49:05,800 this quest through investigating these things. 856 00:49:05,800 --> 00:49:10,280 Not that I don't have thoughts on things or not that I don't 857 00:49:11,560 --> 00:49:14,920 have had weird experiences that I can't explain or have heard 858 00:49:14,920 --> 00:49:19,800 other people's testimonies to their own experiences and things 859 00:49:19,800 --> 00:49:22,840 like that. But just when you can take that 860 00:49:22,840 --> 00:49:25,800 burden off your shoulders and you believe in that moment or 861 00:49:25,800 --> 00:49:29,040 within, you know, a certain time in your life or something that 862 00:49:29,400 --> 00:49:31,880 there's a higher power or somebody's got your back or 863 00:49:31,880 --> 00:49:34,280 something like that. It's super potent. 864 00:49:34,280 --> 00:49:38,640 And it frees you up to kind of live this like joyous life. 865 00:49:38,640 --> 00:49:42,280 But I think it's short lived because life happens, right? 866 00:49:42,280 --> 00:49:44,920 Like the other things are going to come up or they're, you know, 867 00:49:44,920 --> 00:49:49,760 maybe just enjoy that period for what it is 'cause it's, it's not 868 00:49:49,760 --> 00:49:55,120 going to last forever. When you look at the whole Canon 869 00:49:55,120 --> 00:50:00,720 of Steiner's work, is what part of it do you like the most, or 870 00:50:00,720 --> 00:50:06,120 does it resonate most with you? Yeah, I think for me it was and 871 00:50:06,120 --> 00:50:08,600 always will. Well, you know, his philosophy. 872 00:50:08,880 --> 00:50:11,280 I I, I think, you know, if anyone asked me, hey, what 873 00:50:11,280 --> 00:50:14,880 should I read with Steiner? My bias is like, start with the 874 00:50:14,880 --> 00:50:18,160 early philosophy stuff because it he doesn't bring up Atlantis. 875 00:50:18,160 --> 00:50:21,440 He doesn't ask you to listen about Christ or, you know, 876 00:50:21,440 --> 00:50:25,040 ghosts or whatever the spooky stuff, you know, Akashic Records 877 00:50:25,040 --> 00:50:27,200 and reincarnation like so you know, with the philosophy, he 878 00:50:27,200 --> 00:50:31,480 really, you know, intentionally kept it pure philosophy. 879 00:50:32,640 --> 00:50:36,320 And for me that's the skeleton key because you pick up his 880 00:50:36,320 --> 00:50:39,960 ideas about freedom, which are his ideas about love. 881 00:50:40,560 --> 00:50:43,360 And when I started reading Steiner, I was an atheist. 882 00:50:44,160 --> 00:50:48,400 So when he, when I found out he talked a lot about Christ, it 883 00:50:48,400 --> 00:50:50,480 really urged, irked me or whatever. 884 00:50:50,720 --> 00:50:54,120 But it for me, all I have to do is replace this idea of this 885 00:50:54,120 --> 00:50:57,920 being of Christ with a being of love, you know, being of truth, 886 00:50:57,920 --> 00:51:01,600 a being of wisdom. And I, I can believe easier that 887 00:51:01,600 --> 00:51:05,080 there is a being of, of love that exists and that we, you 888 00:51:05,080 --> 00:51:07,440 know, that that's our, our sort of guiding light. 889 00:51:07,440 --> 00:51:10,080 And it's like, OK, cool. And you understand that without 890 00:51:10,080 --> 00:51:13,800 having to read any of his woo woo stuff at all. 891 00:51:14,280 --> 00:51:16,640 And I think there's a version of Steiner that is just, well, 892 00:51:16,640 --> 00:51:18,880 there was a version of Steiner that was just the philosopher. 893 00:51:18,920 --> 00:51:22,000 And had he just given that to the world, it would have been 894 00:51:22,000 --> 00:51:23,720 enough. And he says as much as that the 895 00:51:23,720 --> 00:51:26,800 philosopher of freedom contains everything else that he said. 896 00:51:26,800 --> 00:51:29,320 It's, it's all there if you can just put it together. 897 00:51:29,880 --> 00:51:32,400 So for me, it's the philosophy. But if I had to give the runner 898 00:51:32,400 --> 00:51:36,360 up it, it is his ideas about religion and, and Christ and 899 00:51:36,360 --> 00:51:40,680 Christianity And just as an atheist, you know, former 900 00:51:40,680 --> 00:51:43,160 atheist, whatever, like I would have never been convinced I 901 00:51:43,160 --> 00:51:48,280 would talk about Christianity. So for an atheist like Steiner 902 00:51:48,280 --> 00:51:51,480 is the Christian to go to because he leaves out just all 903 00:51:51,480 --> 00:51:56,240 the junk and he fights against the junk that makes it so hard 904 00:51:56,240 --> 00:51:58,200 to even use words like Christianity for me. 905 00:51:59,120 --> 00:52:01,720 So but yeah, I, I would, I think you can read Steiner as just a 906 00:52:01,720 --> 00:52:03,640 philosopher and you can leave it there. 907 00:52:04,320 --> 00:52:07,480 But if you want to go for yeah. What do you he, you know, the 908 00:52:07,480 --> 00:52:09,160 second stuff is just as good as the first. 909 00:52:09,160 --> 00:52:10,400 But yeah, I guess that's my answer. 910 00:52:12,000 --> 00:52:17,200 What's your take on his idea of the Araman, if you can describe 911 00:52:17,200 --> 00:52:19,760 that to people? Yeah. 912 00:52:19,760 --> 00:52:26,000 So for Steiner, you know, we are tasked with becoming beings of 913 00:52:26,000 --> 00:52:31,200 love and freedom and wisdom, but that doesn't happen without a 914 00:52:31,200 --> 00:52:33,560 sort of catalyst. And for actually the catalyst 915 00:52:33,560 --> 00:52:37,840 is, is Araman. So Arman is, is death and 916 00:52:37,840 --> 00:52:43,280 illusion and materialism. And I was just reading that we 917 00:52:43,280 --> 00:52:47,400 can view Arman not as some devil, something evil, although 918 00:52:47,400 --> 00:52:51,600 it is evil, but it's actually a a it's a it's a whole host of 919 00:52:51,600 --> 00:52:53,440 beings. Arman is not a single being. 920 00:52:53,440 --> 00:52:57,680 It's a whole any being that is the beings of darkness that sort 921 00:52:57,680 --> 00:53:00,920 of become our trip. We we trip over them. 922 00:53:01,000 --> 00:53:03,880 We are made stronger by them. They are like the counterforce 923 00:53:03,880 --> 00:53:06,560 to love. And so there are beings tasked 924 00:53:06,560 --> 00:53:09,520 with being this, these counter forces to love and they're there 925 00:53:09,520 --> 00:53:13,960 to strengthen us and to make our resolve towards love stronger. 926 00:53:14,360 --> 00:53:17,360 And so all all of the energy in the universe that's like sort of 927 00:53:17,400 --> 00:53:20,080 adversarial. And so he he gets really into 928 00:53:20,080 --> 00:53:23,160 very detailed things about it, like Arman or the Arman 929 00:53:23,160 --> 00:53:27,720 experience will use things like technology to sort of entrap 930 00:53:27,720 --> 00:53:30,280 humans and to trick them. And he's the sort of 931 00:53:30,280 --> 00:53:35,200 Mephistophelian figure, sort of what's the, the gurta sort of 932 00:53:35,200 --> 00:53:36,680 deal with the devil kind of thing. 933 00:53:36,680 --> 00:53:38,280 Like he, he's all these pictures. 934 00:53:38,280 --> 00:53:42,360 But ultimately it's, it's the forces against love that will 935 00:53:42,360 --> 00:53:45,560 strengthen us. So people often make him out to 936 00:53:45,560 --> 00:53:47,680 be this, you know, very again, like if you're a typical 937 00:53:47,680 --> 00:53:50,320 Christian, you'll talk about the devil and it's in hell and it's 938 00:53:50,320 --> 00:53:54,040 just scary. But Steiner gives a a far more 939 00:53:54,040 --> 00:53:57,000 nuanced approach to our Amman, which is that it's we should be 940 00:53:57,000 --> 00:53:59,960 thankful for all of the sort of evil in the world because it 941 00:53:59,960 --> 00:54:03,960 makes us more loving. So do you think it's his idea? 942 00:54:03,960 --> 00:54:08,960 So Armand's basically you could kind of equate it to like demon 943 00:54:08,960 --> 00:54:12,040 or demonic. But do you think though it's 944 00:54:12,040 --> 00:54:15,400 closer to Damon, like the ancient Greek, which is just 945 00:54:15,400 --> 00:54:20,400 like an entity that you kind of play off of and and think about 946 00:54:20,400 --> 00:54:23,000 and interact with in that way? Or do you think that it is 947 00:54:23,000 --> 00:54:26,240 closer to some sort of demonic actuality? 948 00:54:26,800 --> 00:54:30,320 Yeah, well, so with Steiner, you have also have to mention 949 00:54:30,320 --> 00:54:34,960 Lucifer. So he he has two opposing devils 950 00:54:34,960 --> 00:54:38,400 to to love, you know, and one is an upward one, which is Lucifer 951 00:54:38,400 --> 00:54:39,840 and the other one is the downward 1. 952 00:54:39,840 --> 00:54:42,720 So with, with Arman, you are talking about darkness, you're 953 00:54:42,720 --> 00:54:45,920 talking about death, and also you're talking about illusion 954 00:54:46,000 --> 00:54:49,720 and you talk about materialism and, and all this kind of stuff. 955 00:54:50,160 --> 00:54:53,160 And then there's the Lucifer, which is like the light bringer. 956 00:54:53,160 --> 00:54:55,760 And I, I think what you're describing almost reminds me 957 00:54:55,760 --> 00:54:58,400 more of Lucifer, which is you, you know, again, you have a 958 00:54:58,400 --> 00:55:00,920 positive relationship with these things, even though they're 959 00:55:00,960 --> 00:55:03,640 sometimes, well, there are wholly negative forces. 960 00:55:03,760 --> 00:55:07,040 So, but now Armand should be regarded as, as pretty dark. 961 00:55:07,600 --> 00:55:10,160 It just shouldn't be scary, you know? 962 00:55:10,160 --> 00:55:12,760 Well, yeah, I mean, and you, you could look at like a later 963 00:55:13,240 --> 00:55:16,320 psychologist, philosopher, almost like a Carl Jung and, you 964 00:55:16,320 --> 00:55:21,920 know, actually investigate and play with your darker side or 965 00:55:21,920 --> 00:55:25,280 your darker nature and understand that that's kind of 966 00:55:25,280 --> 00:55:27,600 part of it too. Because without these kind of 967 00:55:27,600 --> 00:55:32,280 dichotomies, you know, without, I know it's cliche, but without, 968 00:55:32,600 --> 00:55:34,120 you know, evil, there is no good. 969 00:55:34,120 --> 00:55:35,680 And without dark, there is no light. 970 00:55:35,680 --> 00:55:41,960 So the universe kind of is a balancing act, if you will, of 971 00:55:41,960 --> 00:55:44,400 these different forces. That's it. 972 00:55:44,720 --> 00:55:47,080 So for Steiner, you got the darkness on the left, you got 973 00:55:47,080 --> 00:55:49,960 light on the right, but then you have the middle, the balancing 974 00:55:49,960 --> 00:55:52,680 thing, which is what he's calling Christ, which again, if 975 00:55:52,680 --> 00:55:56,720 you consider Christ a loving balancing being, you know, it's 976 00:55:56,720 --> 00:55:58,600 just something with these positive attributes. 977 00:55:59,360 --> 00:56:01,880 Yeah. All right. 978 00:56:01,880 --> 00:56:04,920 Before we wrap it up, we got a little bit of a new segment. 979 00:56:04,920 --> 00:56:07,920 Are you ready, Andrew Tischler? Excited. 980 00:56:07,920 --> 00:56:09,320 Let's see if I'm ready. Yeah, let's go. 981 00:56:26,410 --> 00:56:32,850 All right, I am going to ask you 5 philosophical questions and 982 00:56:32,850 --> 00:56:34,250 just answer them the best you can. 983 00:56:35,490 --> 00:56:39,330 You ready? What is something that you 984 00:56:39,330 --> 00:56:43,770 believe in that you know is probably wrong or illogical, but 985 00:56:43,770 --> 00:56:46,250 you are just not being honest with yourself? 986 00:56:49,050 --> 00:56:53,880 Something I believe in that I think probably isn't true. 987 00:56:54,800 --> 00:56:56,720 Is that it? But I want it to be true. 988 00:57:00,600 --> 00:57:03,960 Oh my gosh, I'm the worst at these kind of open-ended things 989 00:57:03,960 --> 00:57:06,360 because I'll just think about it for like 1/2 an hour. 990 00:57:08,200 --> 00:57:12,160 Let's see something that's it's just tricky because I used to be 991 00:57:12,160 --> 00:57:17,160 a lot more nihilistic and I, I have a lot of I, yeah, I have a 992 00:57:17,160 --> 00:57:18,800 lot of options. Well, like what's something that 993 00:57:18,800 --> 00:57:22,040 you have like an inkling, like it doesn't even have to be like 994 00:57:22,040 --> 00:57:24,760 a religion or something, but just something that like you're 995 00:57:24,760 --> 00:57:30,080 kind of fooling yourself to believe that the you know, like 996 00:57:30,120 --> 00:57:34,320 you said, nihilism like is like maybe this means nothing, but we 997 00:57:34,320 --> 00:57:36,880 you you trick yourself into thinking that there, you know, 998 00:57:37,120 --> 00:57:38,640 doesn't have to be that, but just something that's. 999 00:57:38,960 --> 00:57:44,640 Probably for me, it is that like, I, I, I guess I do get 1000 00:57:44,640 --> 00:57:47,720 worried that, yeah, that there's something compelling to 1001 00:57:47,720 --> 00:57:50,080 nihilism. I mean, I, this all started when 1002 00:57:50,080 --> 00:57:52,320 I was a kid. I was just so afraid, like, like 1003 00:57:52,360 --> 00:57:54,840 being existing doesn't make a lot of sense. 1004 00:57:55,320 --> 00:57:58,520 And I, I was in touch with that for since I was 5 or 6 years 1005 00:57:58,520 --> 00:58:00,680 old, that it doesn't make a lot of sense that I'm sitting here 1006 00:58:00,680 --> 00:58:03,720 staring at these stars and that they're all gasp, things 1007 00:58:03,720 --> 00:58:06,240 burning. And I came from bugs and I 1008 00:58:06,240 --> 00:58:06,680 evolved. Yeah. 1009 00:58:06,680 --> 00:58:08,000 It's like I would just happen to be here. 1010 00:58:08,000 --> 00:58:11,240 And that really scared me and it kind of started me on the path 1011 00:58:11,240 --> 00:58:13,600 of philosophy. So the idea that that is true, 1012 00:58:14,840 --> 00:58:18,160 you know, I when I dip back into sort of the atheism YouTube and 1013 00:58:18,160 --> 00:58:21,280 the hyper scientific YouTube and that they their arguments are so 1014 00:58:21,280 --> 00:58:23,240 compelling. And yeah, I suppose it would be 1015 00:58:23,240 --> 00:58:27,360 really scary to to slip back into that perspective of that 1016 00:58:27,360 --> 00:58:29,760 there's not something spiritual. I guess that's it that, that 1017 00:58:29,840 --> 00:58:32,880 there is like if I think there is a spiritual element to 1018 00:58:32,880 --> 00:58:36,880 humanity, to to to myself, and if that weren't true, that would 1019 00:58:36,880 --> 00:58:39,680 be a tough thing to swallow. It's like, I guess it's yeah, 1020 00:58:39,680 --> 00:58:42,320 believing in a spiritual I, I think it is, yeah. 1021 00:58:42,320 --> 00:58:45,480 Like the TLL logical thing. OK, OK. 1022 00:58:46,720 --> 00:58:49,760 Do you think there is an objective purpose for humanity? 1023 00:58:49,760 --> 00:58:51,480 And if so, what? What is it? 1024 00:58:54,200 --> 00:58:57,800 I always think it's love. I'm I'm pretty comfortable with 1025 00:58:57,800 --> 00:59:01,560 love. And of course, for me, love also 1026 00:59:01,560 --> 00:59:04,960 means freedom, but it means also knowing. 1027 00:59:05,600 --> 00:59:08,040 So you don't just get to say I'm loving, you also have to be a 1028 00:59:08,040 --> 00:59:09,880 scientist and a philosopher. You have to know. 1029 00:59:10,680 --> 00:59:15,000 So Yep, I, I, I think because because it has the caveat of 1030 00:59:15,000 --> 00:59:19,440 both freedom and knowing I'm comfortable with the answer of 1031 00:59:19,440 --> 00:59:21,960 love as the objective explanation to yeah, that's my 1032 00:59:21,960 --> 00:59:27,840 Trinity. OK, OK #3 do you think humans 1033 00:59:27,840 --> 00:59:30,680 are special or separate from the rest of nature? 1034 00:59:31,000 --> 00:59:33,560 And if your answer is yes, please give me your best example 1035 00:59:33,560 --> 00:59:37,520 of why. I, I would say, I think I 1036 00:59:37,520 --> 00:59:39,440 emphasized the yes more than the no. 1037 00:59:40,160 --> 00:59:44,920 And the simple thing is that we have complex language and that 1038 00:59:44,920 --> 00:59:51,600 we create art and technologies and culture, and that our 1039 00:59:51,920 --> 00:59:56,520 culture is so complex and beautiful that it does transcend 1040 00:59:56,520 --> 00:59:59,120 things that the animals are up to and that there is a very 1041 00:59:59,120 --> 01:00:01,360 clear delineation between humans and animals. 1042 01:00:02,200 --> 01:00:06,080 Now, I will point out that there are proto versions of everything 1043 01:00:06,080 --> 01:00:11,000 you just said, meaning that, you know, some and you know, like 1044 01:00:11,280 --> 01:00:15,360 chimps have kind of like a culture, you know, animals have 1045 01:00:15,360 --> 01:00:19,640 been known to what people think might be art, you know, things 1046 01:00:19,640 --> 01:00:21,600 like that. So I just want to point that 1047 01:00:21,600 --> 01:00:23,760 out. While I kind of, you know, agree 1048 01:00:23,760 --> 01:00:27,840 with you, those things do separate us as terms of like how 1049 01:00:27,840 --> 01:00:30,400 sophisticated and how complex they are. 1050 01:00:30,640 --> 01:00:33,560 There are proto versions of that found in nature. 1051 01:00:34,160 --> 01:00:36,280 Well, I'll refine my answer because there's I think there's 1052 01:00:36,280 --> 01:00:39,240 something that there is no proto example of which is that there 1053 01:00:39,240 --> 01:00:41,760 is no animals that say I to themselves. 1054 01:00:43,720 --> 01:00:46,320 OK, yeah, that's that's the, yeah, yeah. 1055 01:00:46,760 --> 01:00:52,440 OK, what do you think happens when we die? 1056 01:00:55,840 --> 01:01:01,800 I think we rejoin our higher self, which is a complicated 1057 01:01:01,800 --> 01:01:07,400 entity that has lived many lives, and we start to plan for 1058 01:01:07,400 --> 01:01:11,080 our next life because we are not enlightened yet. 1059 01:01:11,240 --> 01:01:14,160 And yeah, I think that there's a dying process. 1060 01:01:14,160 --> 01:01:16,920 I think we are. We review our past life and then 1061 01:01:16,920 --> 01:01:18,440 we prepare for our our next life. 1062 01:01:20,360 --> 01:01:26,160 I think it's about 800. And to end it on a more positive 1063 01:01:26,160 --> 01:01:31,160 note, how do you or do you or what should I say, what do you 1064 01:01:31,160 --> 01:01:34,040 hope happens when we die? So I asked you, what do you 1065 01:01:34,040 --> 01:01:36,600 think happens when we die? But what do you hope happens 1066 01:01:36,600 --> 01:01:39,480 when we die? I like it. 1067 01:01:39,480 --> 01:01:42,640 I like, I, I hope that we get in touch with, you know, pure love 1068 01:01:42,920 --> 01:01:46,200 and pure wisdom and, and joy and truth and that we are sort of 1069 01:01:46,200 --> 01:01:48,920 refilled. And yeah, I hope that instead of 1070 01:01:48,920 --> 01:01:54,680 hell or even a sort of sort of bureaucratic heaven, that now we 1071 01:01:54,680 --> 01:01:58,080 we just meet our loved ones and these great ideals. 1072 01:01:58,120 --> 01:02:00,800 And yeah. And then we gather energy to to 1073 01:02:00,800 --> 01:02:02,840 get back involved in the whole cosmic plan. 1074 01:02:03,840 --> 01:02:05,800 Awesome. Thank you so much, Andrew. 1075 01:02:06,760 --> 01:02:09,360 If you would like to support Mind Escape, there's many ways 1076 01:02:09,360 --> 01:02:12,080 you can do it, but the best way to do it is to click the link 1077 01:02:12,080 --> 01:02:16,840 tree link down below. I have everything from merch to 1078 01:02:16,880 --> 01:02:21,160 our Patreon page, our Patreon. By the way, I archived a lot of 1079 01:02:21,160 --> 01:02:23,800 the Mind Escape One Point O episodes on there. 1080 01:02:24,120 --> 01:02:27,240 There is still some available on our YouTube channel and our 1081 01:02:27,240 --> 01:02:30,960 Spotify and Apple podcast. However, like I said, if you're 1082 01:02:30,960 --> 01:02:33,800 looking for a specific older episode, it might be on our 1083 01:02:33,800 --> 01:02:37,640 Patreon, which has been archived and it's 2 dollars a month and 1084 01:02:37,640 --> 01:02:40,560 there's also exclusive content on there as well that was never 1085 01:02:40,560 --> 01:02:44,280 released to any other platform. So please go check that out. 1086 01:02:44,280 --> 01:02:46,400 You can also check out our documentary that Maurice and I 1087 01:02:46,400 --> 01:02:50,360 made a few years ago called As Within So without from UFOs to 1088 01:02:50,360 --> 01:02:52,800 DMT, that is available on there as well. 1089 01:02:52,800 --> 01:02:55,840 There's also a director's cut. Please click the subscribe 1090 01:02:55,840 --> 01:02:58,520 button and follow us. And if you're listening on an 1091 01:02:58,520 --> 01:03:02,240 audio platform like Spotify, we do have video on Spotify as 1092 01:03:02,240 --> 01:03:04,320 well. And please leave us a nice 1093 01:03:04,320 --> 01:03:06,200 review. We would really appreciate that. 1094 01:03:36,560 --> 01:03:36,640 The.