1 00:00:16,720 --> 00:00:21,720 Welcome to Mind Escape. Are you ready? 2 00:00:24,960 --> 00:00:28,920 Are you ready to escape your mind? 3 00:00:49,440 --> 00:00:52,680 All right, folks, welcome back to Mike and Maurice's mind 4 00:00:52,680 --> 00:00:53,720 escape. We have. 5 00:00:54,400 --> 00:00:58,840 Let's see here Episode 299. We're we're approaching 300. 6 00:00:58,840 --> 00:01:03,080 It's been a long journey with six years, a little over six 7 00:01:03,080 --> 00:01:08,960 years and almost 300 episodes. And, yeah, it's been quite the 8 00:01:08,960 --> 00:01:11,480 ride. But here we are, 299. 9 00:01:11,480 --> 00:01:17,000 Tonight we have Bald Scientist Podcast. 10 00:01:17,000 --> 00:01:19,440 Oh OK, that's not an insult. That's the name of it. 11 00:01:19,440 --> 00:01:23,480 It's called the Bald Scientist. Larry David would be proud, but 12 00:01:23,480 --> 00:01:29,880 the Bald Scientist Podcast and our guest tonight is Oneh Pagan. 13 00:01:29,880 --> 00:01:35,040 He is a scientist and author professor and seems like a 14 00:01:35,040 --> 00:01:38,760 pretty inquisitive person. I highly recommend his books. 15 00:01:39,640 --> 00:01:41,560 You can check out two of them down below. 16 00:01:42,280 --> 00:01:46,280 Strange Survivors is one of them, and then the other one is 17 00:01:46,280 --> 00:01:50,400 stone flies or no, I'm sorry, drunk flies and stone dolphins, 18 00:01:50,880 --> 00:01:55,040 which I highly recommend, especially since on the show I 19 00:01:55,040 --> 00:01:59,040 preach learning philosophy and pharmacology and understanding 20 00:01:59,040 --> 00:02:01,480 these compounds since we talked about them and everything. 21 00:02:01,960 --> 00:02:05,080 Like no, you know what's going on, let's try and figure it out. 22 00:02:05,080 --> 00:02:08,479 And and his books really do a great job of breaking it down. 23 00:02:08,479 --> 00:02:11,640 And they're not super dense or over. 24 00:02:11,800 --> 00:02:14,800 You know, they don't use scientific terms that are almost 25 00:02:14,800 --> 00:02:17,120 impossible to understand, like a scientific paper. 26 00:02:17,120 --> 00:02:20,480 So go check those out. They're on Audible too. 27 00:02:20,480 --> 00:02:22,640 So if you like listening to books, go check those out for 28 00:02:22,640 --> 00:02:25,920 sure. But yeah, then go check out his 29 00:02:25,920 --> 00:02:27,360 podcast. Go subscribe. 30 00:02:27,360 --> 00:02:29,400 The bald scientist. One word. 31 00:02:29,880 --> 00:02:31,400 You can check them out on Spotify. 32 00:02:31,400 --> 00:02:34,640 Apple. Yeah, I checked out a few 33 00:02:34,640 --> 00:02:39,360 episodes, really loved it. So, and yeah, we're gonna, you 34 00:02:39,360 --> 00:02:40,600 know, we're gonna do our thing here. 35 00:02:40,600 --> 00:02:44,880 I'm getting over a little bit of a sickness, but I'm aside from 36 00:02:44,880 --> 00:02:47,920 some aches and some chills and pains, I'm doing OK. 37 00:02:47,920 --> 00:02:53,840 But so tonight we're gonna talk about animal pharmacology. 38 00:02:54,000 --> 00:02:57,200 You know, antigen, psychedelic. I guess it's not antigen unless 39 00:02:57,360 --> 00:02:59,680 they actually know what they're doing and it's religious for 40 00:02:59,680 --> 00:03:01,960 them. But psychedelic psychoactive 41 00:03:01,960 --> 00:03:05,760 compounds, things of that nature, stuff I've been 42 00:03:05,760 --> 00:03:08,840 fascinated with for years and questions that I have and stuff 43 00:03:08,840 --> 00:03:11,360 like that. So if you have a question and 44 00:03:11,360 --> 00:03:14,640 you're watching on YouTube, feel free to add it to the live 45 00:03:14,640 --> 00:03:18,200 stream and I will try and to get to it when I get a chance. 46 00:03:19,720 --> 00:03:22,120 If you want to support mine escape, the best way to do it is 47 00:03:22,120 --> 00:03:24,040 to click the link tree link down below. 48 00:03:24,480 --> 00:03:27,960 Plenty ways to do it, Merch store, leave us a nice review, 49 00:03:28,160 --> 00:03:30,480 you name it, it's all in there. I'm not going to go through a 50 00:03:30,480 --> 00:03:34,440 whole spiel. So without further ado, welcome 51 00:03:34,440 --> 00:03:35,800 on the show. Nay, how are you? 52 00:03:36,600 --> 00:03:38,160 I'm fine. Thank you for having me on, 53 00:03:38,160 --> 00:03:39,920 Mike. No problem. 54 00:03:39,920 --> 00:03:42,800 I know we tried to set this up. I think you actually, you might 55 00:03:42,800 --> 00:03:45,160 have reached out to me right after I had I'm trying to think 56 00:03:45,160 --> 00:03:47,880 Bobby Azarian on a while back and we were talking Mike 57 00:03:48,320 --> 00:03:49,800 Masters. Oh, Mike Masters. 58 00:03:49,800 --> 00:03:55,640 OK And yeah we tried to set it up and things just, you know 59 00:03:55,640 --> 00:03:58,800 didn't come together. But here we are, and I'm glad we 60 00:03:58,800 --> 00:04:01,720 we are, because like I said, I really enjoy your work and 61 00:04:02,280 --> 00:04:07,160 you're very the way you present things is kind of like what 62 00:04:07,160 --> 00:04:11,120 Richard Feynman said, which is like, you know, what's, you 63 00:04:11,120 --> 00:04:15,240 know, the intelligence or a sign of intelligence is being able to 64 00:04:16,000 --> 00:04:18,839 explain something in the simplified way for everybody to 65 00:04:18,839 --> 00:04:20,760 understand something along those lines. 66 00:04:20,760 --> 00:04:23,400 And I think you do a great job of that in your books for sure. 67 00:04:23,400 --> 00:04:25,440 So. Well, thank you so much. 68 00:04:25,440 --> 00:04:29,680 That's very kind and comparing that style to finance is high 69 00:04:29,680 --> 00:04:31,480 praise indeed. Thank you. 70 00:04:31,960 --> 00:04:35,760 No problem, No problem. So let's just before we get into 71 00:04:35,760 --> 00:04:38,680 a lot of the questions I have in the animal pharmacology and 72 00:04:38,680 --> 00:04:42,840 everything, give us a little bit of your background where you're 73 00:04:42,840 --> 00:04:45,520 from, how did you get into this, all that kind of stuff? 74 00:04:46,120 --> 00:04:49,320 Sure. Well, thanks again for having me 75 00:04:49,320 --> 00:04:52,480 and and I say hello to all your listeners out there. 76 00:04:53,520 --> 00:04:55,920 My first name is Sonay. It's spelled just like the 77 00:04:56,400 --> 00:04:59,320 number one in English. It has a little accent on the 78 00:05:00,360 --> 00:05:02,480 The name comes from my father's name. 79 00:05:02,480 --> 00:05:07,120 His name was on Esimos. That's Greek from the Bible, but 80 00:05:07,120 --> 00:05:08,680 I'm Puerto Rican. Go figure. 81 00:05:09,040 --> 00:05:10,400 I'm sorry. I don't look Latino. 82 00:05:10,440 --> 00:05:12,160 I don't look the part. Nothing like that. 83 00:05:13,000 --> 00:05:18,520 One thing that it's very characteristic of me, of me, is 84 00:05:18,520 --> 00:05:21,080 that I love any and every type of science. 85 00:05:21,400 --> 00:05:25,960 And there was never any doubt, ever since I was a kid that I 86 00:05:25,960 --> 00:05:28,120 would end up doing something scientific. 87 00:05:28,800 --> 00:05:31,960 I went to college at the University of Puerto Rico, did a 88 00:05:31,960 --> 00:05:37,160 bachelor's in general sciences and started working, you know, 89 00:05:37,160 --> 00:05:39,360 life intervene. I did a master's in 90 00:05:39,360 --> 00:05:42,240 biochemistry, also at the University of Puerto Rico, and I 91 00:05:42,240 --> 00:05:45,120 always wanted to do my PhD, but I had a family. 92 00:05:45,120 --> 00:05:47,280 I needed to work. You know, the the usual things. 93 00:05:48,400 --> 00:05:52,640 One fine day I was working as a technician at a medical school 94 00:05:52,640 --> 00:05:56,800 in Puerto Rico and a collaborator of my supervisors 95 00:05:56,800 --> 00:06:00,120 came to the medical school. He was a professor at Cornell 96 00:06:00,120 --> 00:06:03,320 University. He came recruiting people and 97 00:06:03,600 --> 00:06:06,800 they they invited me to apply. I did. 98 00:06:06,800 --> 00:06:09,840 They interviewed me. They I got a scholarship. 99 00:06:09,880 --> 00:06:13,960 And in so many words I told my wife, it's freaking Cornell. 100 00:06:14,640 --> 00:06:17,280 OK, so. And then we moved to the 101 00:06:17,280 --> 00:06:19,600 mainland. Our youngest son was born in 102 00:06:19,600 --> 00:06:22,440 Ithaca, NY. We have three children, and 103 00:06:22,440 --> 00:06:26,960 right now their ranges are almost 33 until 22. 104 00:06:27,760 --> 00:06:31,120 So. But I am I am an unapologetic 105 00:06:31,840 --> 00:06:35,640 nerd, science nerd. I like everything and anything 106 00:06:35,640 --> 00:06:37,840 about science, and I love talking about it. 107 00:06:37,840 --> 00:06:41,840 I always say that I have the best job in the world because as 108 00:06:42,000 --> 00:06:46,200 a university professor, I'm expected to talk about science, 109 00:06:46,480 --> 00:06:50,400 I'm expected to read about science, I'm expected to develop 110 00:06:50,400 --> 00:06:53,640 my own scholarship, and the students have to listen to me. 111 00:06:53,960 --> 00:06:56,640 OK. So it's it doesn't get any any 112 00:06:56,680 --> 00:06:58,120 much better than that as it were. 113 00:06:59,160 --> 00:07:05,720 Absolutely. Now, so when we're talking about 114 00:07:06,240 --> 00:07:11,080 this animal pharmacology, like what specifically is your field 115 00:07:11,080 --> 00:07:14,920 of research that you do when you teach as a professor and then 116 00:07:14,920 --> 00:07:19,800 you write papers, like what specific you know, topic do you 117 00:07:19,800 --> 00:07:23,800 write on? Of all things, I do biochemical 118 00:07:23,800 --> 00:07:28,240 and behavioral pharmacology of flatworms, specific type of flat 119 00:07:28,240 --> 00:07:31,720 flatworm called planarians. Those are the ones that you can 120 00:07:31,720 --> 00:07:35,280 cut their heads off and they will not die, they will regrow, 121 00:07:35,280 --> 00:07:38,320 regenerate their head. But more importantly, this 122 00:07:38,320 --> 00:07:41,640 particular type of planarians, they have a relatively 123 00:07:41,640 --> 00:07:45,840 sophisticated brain in the with very much the same 124 00:07:45,840 --> 00:07:49,720 neurotransmitter, same type of neurons that vertebrates do and 125 00:07:49,720 --> 00:07:52,520 they can regenerate fully their brains. 126 00:07:52,760 --> 00:07:55,480 Imagine that if we ever learn how to do that. 127 00:07:55,480 --> 00:08:00,640 For example, a person with brain damage from a car accident, some 128 00:08:00,640 --> 00:08:04,760 tragedy like that or spinal cord injuries, Alzheimer's, any type 129 00:08:04,760 --> 00:08:08,960 of mental disease. So they know how to regenerate 130 00:08:08,960 --> 00:08:14,600 their nervous system correctly. And so and in addition to that, 131 00:08:14,600 --> 00:08:18,920 they display many of the behavioral and pharmacological 132 00:08:18,920 --> 00:08:23,480 responses that we do upon exposure to let's say addictive 133 00:08:23,480 --> 00:08:26,920 drugs like a nicotine. For instance, The ones that the 134 00:08:26,920 --> 00:08:30,560 ones that I work with our freshwater planarians, If I put 135 00:08:30,560 --> 00:08:34,120 nicotine in the water and I leave the nicotine there for a 136 00:08:34,120 --> 00:08:37,039 while and then I take the nicotine away, they go into 137 00:08:37,039 --> 00:08:42,000 withdrawal, they start shaking, they swim like crazy and many, 138 00:08:42,679 --> 00:08:46,880 dare I say most of the psycho psychoactive compounds that 139 00:08:46,880 --> 00:08:51,720 humans use, they have an effect on these organisms. 140 00:08:51,720 --> 00:08:55,880 And so we have developed a research program that use them 141 00:08:55,960 --> 00:08:59,400 as a model organisms in pharmacology, particularly 142 00:08:59,400 --> 00:09:02,680 neuropharmacology. So before I even started reading 143 00:09:02,680 --> 00:09:06,360 your book, I was thinking to myself, what would a psychedelic 144 00:09:06,360 --> 00:09:09,880 or psychoactive experience look like on something that doesn't 145 00:09:09,880 --> 00:09:13,560 have a frontal cortex or even like a full brain or something 146 00:09:13,560 --> 00:09:14,400 like that? Can you? 147 00:09:14,400 --> 00:09:16,240 That's kind of what we're talking about here. 148 00:09:16,240 --> 00:09:16,680 What? What? 149 00:09:16,680 --> 00:09:20,160 What would that be like? Well, the thing about it is that 150 00:09:20,400 --> 00:09:23,920 in the case of vertebrates, they are pretty much, they have 151 00:09:23,920 --> 00:09:27,520 pretty much the same type of nervous systems, a system as we 152 00:09:27,520 --> 00:09:30,920 as we do. OK, So they maybe they don't 153 00:09:30,920 --> 00:09:34,760 have a cortex that is as developed as we they have it, 154 00:09:35,000 --> 00:09:38,000 but they do have it. But then when we go to 155 00:09:38,000 --> 00:09:41,880 invertebrates, we talk, we talk about flies, we talk about again 156 00:09:41,880 --> 00:09:46,200 worms, octopuses, all these type of organisms, even though they 157 00:09:46,200 --> 00:09:51,080 have a brain of a very much different style from ours. 158 00:09:51,600 --> 00:09:55,680 Many of the circuits, like the reward circuits for what we 159 00:09:56,200 --> 00:10:01,080 interpret as pleasure or painful stimuli, they are conserved in 160 00:10:01,080 --> 00:10:05,000 evolution, so that's why we can use them as models for that. 161 00:10:05,000 --> 00:10:10,120 So of course I like joking with my students that I don't even 162 00:10:10,120 --> 00:10:13,800 know what I'm thinking. Half of the time I cannot tell 163 00:10:13,800 --> 00:10:17,960 what other people are thinking, let alone an Organism of which 164 00:10:18,320 --> 00:10:24,320 to which I cannot communicate. So we have to study those by 165 00:10:24,320 --> 00:10:28,840 observing behavior, which can be a representation of whatever 166 00:10:28,840 --> 00:10:33,840 mental states they have. Yeah, it's fascinating. 167 00:10:36,000 --> 00:10:40,680 So my question, my first question is and I have a bunch 168 00:10:40,680 --> 00:10:46,280 of them, so get ready. So we've talked a lot about on 169 00:10:46,280 --> 00:10:49,200 the show psychedelic psychedelic therapy, usually pertaining to 170 00:10:49,200 --> 00:10:54,880 humans, the five HT 2A receptor agonists, you know, your common 171 00:10:54,880 --> 00:10:56,920 tryptamines and things like that. 172 00:10:59,280 --> 00:11:03,280 What? Why would fungus or mushrooms 173 00:11:03,280 --> 00:11:08,400 evolve to produce psilocybin? I've always heard it was to 174 00:11:08,400 --> 00:11:11,480 deter bugs or insects and things like that. 175 00:11:11,920 --> 00:11:15,880 But that never really seemed like a a great answer 176 00:11:15,880 --> 00:11:19,920 considering some of my personal experiences from years back 177 00:11:20,200 --> 00:11:25,160 involved taking these compounds and then being told or coming 178 00:11:25,160 --> 00:11:27,880 out of it wanting to be a better person wanting to fix my life, 179 00:11:27,880 --> 00:11:29,960 get things together take care of the earth. 180 00:11:29,960 --> 00:11:33,720 There's like a very people that take this across. 181 00:11:33,720 --> 00:11:36,000 You know if you're a decent person get this message like we 182 00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:37,680 got to take care of the earth kind of a thing. 183 00:11:37,680 --> 00:11:40,280 So do you think that there's something within the compounds 184 00:11:40,280 --> 00:11:44,080 of the plants or do you think that that's our own psyche plane 185 00:11:44,080 --> 00:11:46,440 off of this or like what's happening there and why do 186 00:11:46,440 --> 00:11:50,920 these, why does this fungus and and even now they found 187 00:11:50,920 --> 00:11:54,640 psilocybin and cicadas too why do why do they create this? 188 00:11:55,440 --> 00:11:58,480 Well, without being a psychologist, I can give you a 189 00:11:58,720 --> 00:12:02,960 like a a layperson's answer in in that sense. 190 00:12:02,960 --> 00:12:08,080 But you're right, the current paradigm about why plants? 191 00:12:08,080 --> 00:12:11,480 And thank you for talking about fungi, because everybody forgets 192 00:12:11,480 --> 00:12:14,200 about fungi. Everybody thinks animals or 193 00:12:14,200 --> 00:12:18,880 plants, OK, but fungi are out there and you know this as well 194 00:12:18,880 --> 00:12:24,600 as I do, we are evolutionally speaking, closer to fungi than 195 00:12:24,600 --> 00:12:28,840 fungi are to plants. So it's something that we have 196 00:12:28,840 --> 00:12:32,240 that that in common. The current paradigm for 197 00:12:32,440 --> 00:12:37,160 psychoactive substances from plants or fungi, they are 198 00:12:37,320 --> 00:12:40,560 considered the first insecticides, the first 199 00:12:40,560 --> 00:12:41,680 pesticides. OK. 200 00:12:42,040 --> 00:12:46,760 So let's talk about for example, a cocaine plant or or a nicotine 201 00:12:46,760 --> 00:12:49,040 plant. I'm sorry, tobacco plant, things 202 00:12:49,040 --> 00:12:51,400 like that. The thing about it is, if you 203 00:12:51,400 --> 00:12:55,800 have a small insect insect nibbling on the leaf of of a 204 00:12:55,840 --> 00:13:00,760 tobacco plant, that small amount of nicotine will be very toxic 205 00:13:00,760 --> 00:13:05,800 to such a small Organism. OK, but then the same amount of 206 00:13:05,800 --> 00:13:10,680 nicotine when ingested by a human, a much bigger Organism, 207 00:13:11,680 --> 00:13:15,440 it can get toxic over time because the higher amount of of 208 00:13:15,440 --> 00:13:17,800 nicotine, of nicotine can be toxic. 209 00:13:18,000 --> 00:13:21,840 Don't get me wrong, but relatively moderate amounts are 210 00:13:21,840 --> 00:13:26,080 psychoactive. OK, so, and that's probably an 211 00:13:26,120 --> 00:13:32,280 accident of how of the amount relative amount of substances 212 00:13:32,560 --> 00:13:35,560 that are consumed by a particular Organism. 213 00:13:35,880 --> 00:13:40,240 OK, so then again, there's yet another school of thought that 214 00:13:40,720 --> 00:13:45,200 proposes that psychoactive substances substitute for 215 00:13:45,200 --> 00:13:49,720 neurotransmitters in people that are, for example, nutritionally 216 00:13:49,720 --> 00:13:52,360 deprived. Because most of these 217 00:13:52,360 --> 00:13:58,000 neurotransmitters mimic what I should say, I'm sorry, Many of 218 00:13:58,000 --> 00:14:01,720 these toxic substances from plants and fungi mimic 219 00:14:01,720 --> 00:14:05,600 neurotransmitter systems. For example, nicotine mimics one 220 00:14:05,600 --> 00:14:07,840 of the most prevalent neurotransmitter systems, 221 00:14:07,840 --> 00:14:10,120 invertebrates, the acetylcholine system. 222 00:14:10,640 --> 00:14:14,240 And the thing about it is that some people think that under 223 00:14:14,240 --> 00:14:18,200 nutritional deprivation, of course, metabolically speaking, 224 00:14:18,920 --> 00:14:21,440 the production of neurotransmitters is going to be 225 00:14:21,440 --> 00:14:24,000 lower. But if a person consumes A 226 00:14:24,000 --> 00:14:27,640 substance that mimics A neurotransmitter, it's like the 227 00:14:27,640 --> 00:14:33,520 first nutraceuticals as it were. OK, so but there's many 228 00:14:33,560 --> 00:14:37,760 hypothesis that try to explain that type of thing. 229 00:14:38,280 --> 00:14:43,520 As far as why humans react in a particular way to hallucinogens 230 00:14:43,520 --> 00:14:47,880 or entheogens, it's anybody's guess at some point. 231 00:14:48,440 --> 00:14:51,440 And whoever tells anybody, OK, we know why. 232 00:14:52,320 --> 00:14:56,240 Take that with a grain of salt, because no, not every. 233 00:14:56,880 --> 00:14:59,600 I don't think anybody knows exactly what's going on. 234 00:15:00,120 --> 00:15:02,240 Yeah, I mean, I wasn't trying to get too mystical. 235 00:15:02,240 --> 00:15:04,240 I was just sharing my experiences and one of the 236 00:15:04,240 --> 00:15:08,040 messages, a reoccurring message, has been we need to take care of 237 00:15:08,240 --> 00:15:11,760 the Earth. So, and they live on the earth, 238 00:15:12,040 --> 00:15:17,840 you know, so but, so while we're on this topic, what do you think 239 00:15:17,840 --> 00:15:22,080 about the stoned ape hypothesis or theory? 240 00:15:22,800 --> 00:15:25,280 Do you think that there's any merit to that, that humans 241 00:15:25,280 --> 00:15:28,880 evolved alongside of these things in an increased any sort 242 00:15:28,880 --> 00:15:32,080 of cognition or visual acuity or something like that? 243 00:15:33,200 --> 00:15:36,440 Well, there we can see this in two ways. 244 00:15:36,600 --> 00:15:41,040 In two ways. To a very hungry person, if you 245 00:15:41,040 --> 00:15:45,520 see mushrooms, even if it's undone, OK, they're going to eat 246 00:15:45,520 --> 00:15:50,120 it, right? And then if those just by 247 00:15:50,120 --> 00:15:55,320 serendipity a certain type of fungi or mushroom produces A 248 00:15:55,320 --> 00:15:59,720 substance that induces pleasurable sensations to a 249 00:15:59,720 --> 00:16:01,680 human, they will take care of that. 250 00:16:01,680 --> 00:16:05,400 They would start cultivating the same thing with pretty much any 251 00:16:05,400 --> 00:16:10,680 other substances. As far as opening consciousness, 252 00:16:10,680 --> 00:16:15,600 that's yet another word for which no serious scientist will 253 00:16:15,640 --> 00:16:18,680 say, well, yeah, we know what consciousness is because we 254 00:16:18,840 --> 00:16:22,640 really don't. And and that's another it's. 255 00:16:22,640 --> 00:16:26,640 So we agree Richard Dawkins isn't a serious scientist, then 256 00:16:27,560 --> 00:16:28,680 I'm joke. I'm joking. 257 00:16:28,720 --> 00:16:30,480 I'm joke. I'm giving you a hard time. 258 00:16:31,000 --> 00:16:34,360 No, no, no. Trust me, he's not my cup of 259 00:16:34,360 --> 00:16:36,080 tea. Let's put it this way. 260 00:16:36,400 --> 00:16:39,680 He. He he's a very good scientist, 261 00:16:40,040 --> 00:16:45,280 and he writes very sensical about the things he knows about. 262 00:16:46,120 --> 00:16:48,080 OK. He writes about the evolutionary 263 00:16:48,080 --> 00:16:50,080 theory. He writes about computer 264 00:16:50,080 --> 00:16:52,720 modeling of behavior. He's fantastic. 265 00:16:53,080 --> 00:16:57,640 But when he goes out of his wheelhouse, well, it's just as a 266 00:16:57,640 --> 00:17:01,840 layperson as you or I. Yeah, I mean, I agree from the 267 00:17:01,840 --> 00:17:04,839 stuff that I've seen when he dabbles around. 268 00:17:04,839 --> 00:17:09,200 But yeah, that's interesting. OK, One of the one main things 269 00:17:09,200 --> 00:17:12,079 here, and this is in your book I want to talk about, is the 270 00:17:12,119 --> 00:17:16,640 dolphin and puffer fish connection here. 271 00:17:16,640 --> 00:17:18,960 So if anybody's seen this, you can go online. 272 00:17:18,960 --> 00:17:23,240 There's dolphins that will literally grab puffer fish, kind 273 00:17:23,240 --> 00:17:25,000 of like squeeze them. I don't know if they're killing 274 00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:28,040 them or I'm sure they eventually die, but they're squeezing them 275 00:17:28,040 --> 00:17:33,120 in their their beaks or jaws, whatever, and it's emitting some 276 00:17:33,120 --> 00:17:36,360 sort of you can see it, it's like a muddy looking thing 277 00:17:36,360 --> 00:17:37,960 coming out. I mean that who knows what that 278 00:17:37,960 --> 00:17:40,240 that is or if that's even the thing that they're trying to get 279 00:17:40,240 --> 00:17:43,400 at. But they're passing it around 280 00:17:43,400 --> 00:17:46,040 like it's a football and everybody's grabbing it and 281 00:17:46,040 --> 00:17:48,440 swimming around with it and they can tell that they're having an 282 00:17:48,440 --> 00:17:53,800 ecstatic experience. What is the compounds that 283 00:17:53,800 --> 00:17:59,320 they're they're that's doing that, number one, and do we know 284 00:17:59,320 --> 00:18:04,280 when this started? OK, so a few years ago, I want 285 00:18:04,280 --> 00:18:10,400 to say in 2008 or so, a documentary filmmaker was doing 286 00:18:10,400 --> 00:18:13,880 like again, a documentary about a dolphin, pod and whatnot. 287 00:18:14,240 --> 00:18:19,080 And when they went underwater to film them, they noticed that 288 00:18:19,080 --> 00:18:22,760 behavior as you described. They take puffer fish and they 289 00:18:22,760 --> 00:18:26,200 were passing it around. And according to their 290 00:18:26,200 --> 00:18:30,000 observations, for all intents and purposes, the dolphins look 291 00:18:30,000 --> 00:18:36,560 as if they were intoxicated. OK, so that that was one of the 292 00:18:36,560 --> 00:18:41,880 a little frustrating parts to write in my book because I am 293 00:18:41,880 --> 00:18:44,640 fastidious about referencing my sources. 294 00:18:44,960 --> 00:18:48,800 OK, meaning that in science again you you reference papers, 295 00:18:48,800 --> 00:18:50,440 you provide evidence and whatnot. 296 00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:55,240 In that case, when we what we have is an anecdote, but then 297 00:18:55,240 --> 00:18:59,280 it's a very interesting anecdote because the substance that it's 298 00:18:59,280 --> 00:19:04,600 prevalent on puffer fish is that toxin and a particularly nasty 299 00:19:04,600 --> 00:19:06,760 one. It's called tetrodotoxin. 300 00:19:07,360 --> 00:19:10,000 It's actually widespread in nature. 301 00:19:10,680 --> 00:19:13,280 Blue ring octopuses. They have it. 302 00:19:14,800 --> 00:19:16,160 Oh, that's what the puffer fishes. 303 00:19:16,240 --> 00:19:19,120 I mean, I know the blue ring octopus is is a definitely a 304 00:19:19,240 --> 00:19:22,480 venomous octopus. Absolutely, absolutely. 305 00:19:22,760 --> 00:19:25,480 And that that toxin has has no antidote. 306 00:19:25,960 --> 00:19:28,840 OK, so that's it's a paralytic toxin. 307 00:19:28,840 --> 00:19:34,520 It's really nasty, but but it can cause psychoactive effects 308 00:19:34,520 --> 00:19:38,680 in some people because it has some usefulness as certain 309 00:19:38,680 --> 00:19:40,560 therapies. They're trying to develop into 310 00:19:40,560 --> 00:19:44,640 that. There's a couple of things at a 311 00:19:44,640 --> 00:19:49,040 first, as a first approximation, we would assume that the nervous 312 00:19:49,040 --> 00:19:53,000 system of of dolphins is very similar to ours and whatnot, for 313 00:19:53,120 --> 00:19:58,160 a variety of reasons, but it's not out of the realm of 314 00:19:58,160 --> 00:20:01,960 possibility that they have certain differences that 315 00:20:01,960 --> 00:20:05,160 tetrodotoxin. First, don't doesn't kill them 316 00:20:05,160 --> 00:20:09,720 because they are huge organisms compared to to us and that they 317 00:20:09,720 --> 00:20:13,880 have certain differences in the receptors, particular nerve 318 00:20:13,880 --> 00:20:18,000 cells or or whatnot that induces psychoactive responses. 319 00:20:18,440 --> 00:20:24,240 And every month or so I do a literature search to search to 320 00:20:24,240 --> 00:20:26,240 see if somebody has figured that out. 321 00:20:26,520 --> 00:20:33,760 But that's such an interesting topic and such a really good 322 00:20:33,760 --> 00:20:37,440 observation that induces further research. 323 00:20:37,960 --> 00:20:40,720 So, but but then again it's frustrating because I want to 324 00:20:40,720 --> 00:20:45,720 know more, as it were. Yeah I mean it's you added this 325 00:20:45,720 --> 00:20:48,000 in your book and I'm happy you did you add like a little bit of 326 00:20:48,000 --> 00:20:51,360 ancient context and and and where these ideas come from 327 00:20:51,360 --> 00:20:54,640 which I'm huge on origin stories and trying to figure out where 328 00:20:54,640 --> 00:20:57,080 the origins of these things are. But you, you know you talk about 329 00:20:57,080 --> 00:21:00,400 Paracelsus dose makes the poison, which is kind of what 330 00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:03,760 you're talking about here like something our size, you know 331 00:21:03,920 --> 00:21:06,600 this thing might kill you obviously, but something a 332 00:21:06,600 --> 00:21:09,880 little bit bigger maybe with a little bit more neurodiversity 333 00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:15,800 can withstand whatever this thing is and causes a big punch 334 00:21:15,800 --> 00:21:19,040 there. Another thing, kind of since 335 00:21:19,040 --> 00:21:22,240 we're on the ocean, I don't know if you're familiar with the 336 00:21:22,240 --> 00:21:24,520 show, it was on Vice for a few years. 337 00:21:24,520 --> 00:21:26,880 It's called Hamilton's Pharmacopeia with Hamilton 338 00:21:26,880 --> 00:21:29,600 Morris. You should definitely, you 339 00:21:29,600 --> 00:21:31,840 should definitely check it out. It's all about psychedelics, but 340 00:21:31,840 --> 00:21:33,760 there's a lot of stuff in there I think that you would get a 341 00:21:35,120 --> 00:21:38,640 enjoyment out of. But there's an episode on Fish 342 00:21:38,640 --> 00:21:42,880 Inebriation where he goes to Reunion Island I believe. 343 00:21:43,320 --> 00:21:49,120 And they they eat fish heads in this like Stew and something 344 00:21:49,120 --> 00:21:52,240 with these fish. It's called fish inebriation. 345 00:21:52,640 --> 00:21:56,040 Something I don't know how to pronounce it it Theo toxin or 346 00:21:56,040 --> 00:21:58,760 something. I forget how to pronounce it's 347 00:21:58,920 --> 00:22:03,920 but they eat these fish heads and it causes like sleep 348 00:22:03,920 --> 00:22:07,360 paralysis and hallucinations and all sorts of stuff. 349 00:22:07,360 --> 00:22:10,200 And the the the locals there that's part of their like 350 00:22:10,200 --> 00:22:12,000 tradition. Like it's like a Sunday night 351 00:22:12,480 --> 00:22:14,160 dinner. But he goes there and tries this 352 00:22:14,160 --> 00:22:17,560 thing and he's trying to speculate like what could be 353 00:22:17,560 --> 00:22:21,400 causing these effects like water and and the only thing he could 354 00:22:21,400 --> 00:22:23,880 think of is the fish because they were eating like parrotfish 355 00:22:23,880 --> 00:22:27,800 and some other kind of fish that the fish are maybe eating some 356 00:22:27,800 --> 00:22:33,640 sort of coral or sea, you know, flora that's causing some sort 357 00:22:33,640 --> 00:22:37,520 of, you know. Actually, that that's very 358 00:22:37,520 --> 00:22:43,920 interesting and really logical because many animals can produce 359 00:22:43,920 --> 00:22:47,000 psychoactive substances. Think about all the different 360 00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:50,400 types of frogs and tots that are psychoactive. 361 00:22:50,920 --> 00:22:54,640 OK, so I didn't know that particular case, but I'm gonna 362 00:22:54,640 --> 00:22:59,360 take a look at it because it's it's super interesting. 363 00:22:59,360 --> 00:23:02,120 Thank you. I'll send you the link it's but 364 00:23:02,200 --> 00:23:05,920 I highly recommend the show because he he's like a chemist 365 00:23:05,920 --> 00:23:09,040 nerd too and he everything has to do with psychedelics but he's 366 00:23:09,040 --> 00:23:11,280 trying to investigate kind of like how you are with animals 367 00:23:11,280 --> 00:23:13,320 but he does it with like humans and stuff like that. 368 00:23:13,320 --> 00:23:16,680 So so yeah that one's fascinating. 369 00:23:17,560 --> 00:23:21,200 The other question would be you just mentioned frogs and toads. 370 00:23:21,520 --> 00:23:25,080 So we know 5 Meo comes out of Bufo Alvaris. 371 00:23:25,440 --> 00:23:29,800 Now, what would cause that specific toad to create that 372 00:23:29,800 --> 00:23:33,560 compound versus, let's say, BUFO from a different region that has 373 00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:36,960 a little bit of a different environment? 374 00:23:38,040 --> 00:23:41,160 As you well mentioned before, it could be a dietary thing. 375 00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:45,280 Maybe they are ingesting a particular type of insects that 376 00:23:45,280 --> 00:23:49,800 which are the ones that produce that particular compound or 377 00:23:49,960 --> 00:23:53,040 maybe can be a product of their own metabolism. 378 00:23:53,440 --> 00:23:58,840 So that that's there's a whole field of chemical ecology in 379 00:23:58,840 --> 00:24:01,680 which it's. I'm not an expert in that by by 380 00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:07,560 any means, but it's a really huge field in which people study 381 00:24:07,560 --> 00:24:11,640 chemical warfare in organisms, plant, animal and fungi. 382 00:24:11,960 --> 00:24:15,960 And it's fascinating because that goes to a very you 383 00:24:15,960 --> 00:24:20,600 mentioned Richard Dawkins before the idea of evolutionary arms 384 00:24:20,600 --> 00:24:24,760 races in the sense that they get some organisms can produce a 385 00:24:24,760 --> 00:24:29,440 certain type of toxin, then they the prey is going to become 386 00:24:29,440 --> 00:24:33,520 resistant, but then the original Organism becomes more poisonous 387 00:24:33,520 --> 00:24:38,720 and and so on and so forth until we can get incredibly poisonous, 388 00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:43,200 let's say salamanders and incredibly resistant to poison 389 00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:46,480 Garter snakes. This is an actual example, one 390 00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:49,520 of the first that was described in evolutionary arm races. 391 00:24:50,280 --> 00:24:52,960 Yeah, that's that's kind of interesting. 392 00:24:53,760 --> 00:24:56,120 Yeah. I used to head my bouts with 393 00:24:56,120 --> 00:25:01,240 gardener snakes back in the day. Definitely gotten bit by a few 394 00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:05,080 of those. Let's see here. 395 00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:09,520 Oh, I wanted to ask you. So in October, maybe it was last 396 00:25:09,520 --> 00:25:14,240 October, I got bit by a spider on my ankle and I'm trying to 397 00:25:14,240 --> 00:25:16,240 figure out what it is. I end up catching these things 398 00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:18,640 in these glue traps. There's like a bunch of them and 399 00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:20,520 they're only kind of spiders in my basement. 400 00:25:20,520 --> 00:25:22,200 So it's the only thing that could have really bitten me. 401 00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:25,720 And I looked it up. It's a broad face sack spider 402 00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:30,360 and I looked it up, my leg got like super infected. 403 00:25:30,360 --> 00:25:33,160 It looks like even it took like 3 months to heal. 404 00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:35,320 You would have thought I got bit by like a Black Widow or a 405 00:25:35,320 --> 00:25:38,480 tarantula or a brown recluse or whatever. 406 00:25:40,160 --> 00:25:43,960 And so I looked it up. It says that they eat other 407 00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:48,760 toxic bugs like centipedes and everything. 408 00:25:48,760 --> 00:25:52,160 That creates some sort of cytotoxin and then it creates A 409 00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:56,960 secondary infection in humans. So like, what other is that? 410 00:25:56,960 --> 00:26:01,880 Like a common thing for venomous animals to to get their defenses 411 00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:03,920 from things that they eat and then. 412 00:26:04,360 --> 00:26:05,560 Oh, you're gonna love, you're gonna. 413 00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:06,840 Love what I'm going to tell you, OK? 414 00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:12,200 There are certain types of, I want to say, sea slugs. 415 00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:16,400 I'm not entirely sure of the particular species, but you know 416 00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:20,000 that, for example, jellyfish unrelated organisms, they they 417 00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:24,160 they stink, OK. They have specialized cells that 418 00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:28,760 have little sacks of venoms of venom and they are like little 419 00:26:28,760 --> 00:26:30,880 darts. OK, that that's why they're they 420 00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:33,480 stink. But this particular sea here, So 421 00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:36,280 I want to say if I'm mistaken, please forgive me. 422 00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:43,000 They not only eat certain types of jellyfish, they don't get 423 00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:46,280 stung. And to add insult to injury, 424 00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:52,000 they can install their the cells, the cell, the venomous 425 00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:54,040 sucks with cells on their own skin. 426 00:26:54,040 --> 00:26:57,600 And they can steal that particular weaponry from 427 00:26:58,440 --> 00:27:00,640 jellyfish. Unrelated organisms. 428 00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:03,320 So now. Is that like those Blue Angels? 429 00:27:03,320 --> 00:27:06,120 See, I see these people. Like it says this is the most 430 00:27:06,120 --> 00:27:08,040 venomous, tiny thing. And then there's people holding 431 00:27:08,040 --> 00:27:09,680 a bunch of them in their hand, like, what are you doing? 432 00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:10,400 I think. They're related. 433 00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:13,760 I think they're related to them but then the the really cool 434 00:27:13,760 --> 00:27:18,080 thing about it is that those cells in jellyfish, they they 435 00:27:18,080 --> 00:27:20,360 are they they have a hair like trigger. 436 00:27:20,360 --> 00:27:23,720 OK, so you don't need it. You don't need to annoy the 437 00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:28,040 jellyfish. I'm sorry, get enthusiastic and 438 00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:31,120 my accent gets thicker, the jellyfish. 439 00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:32,240 We're hearing you loud and clear. 440 00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:33,360 You're good. Just keep going. 441 00:27:33,360 --> 00:27:37,400 OK, so you only need to to touch it to get stung. 442 00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:42,360 So how are they able to capture those cells without triggering 443 00:27:42,360 --> 00:27:44,880 it? So I'm, I'm betting that it's 444 00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:48,360 something pharmacological that they stop their particular 445 00:27:48,360 --> 00:27:52,560 mechanism of fighting, for lack of a better word, something like 446 00:27:52,560 --> 00:27:54,520 that. And there's many organisms that 447 00:27:54,520 --> 00:27:56,960 do that. There's for example, certain 448 00:27:56,960 --> 00:28:01,160 types of, well, they call it rats, but they are more like 449 00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:06,520 weird skunks in Africa. One of the things that they do 450 00:28:06,520 --> 00:28:09,040 is that they take, for example, toxic plants. 451 00:28:09,280 --> 00:28:14,240 They chew on it, and they caught themselves with the chute toxin 452 00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:18,640 secretion of the plant. OK, so how can that evolve? 453 00:28:19,120 --> 00:28:23,280 Who was the which was the first animal who thought about it and 454 00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:25,920 then survived? So I'm fascinated by those 455 00:28:25,920 --> 00:28:29,280 things. Yeah, 100%. 456 00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:33,520 No, I I love this conversation. Like I said, I I knew when you 457 00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:36,880 sent me your book, I think you sent me like APDFA while back, 458 00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:37,920 and I look started looking at it. 459 00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:40,320 I'm like, I'll just 'cause I do a lot of audiobooks too, like 460 00:28:40,320 --> 00:28:41,960 while I'm working and stuff like that. 461 00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:45,880 And yeah, I I love what you're doing and I love your 462 00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:49,000 fascination. I think that complexity science 463 00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:51,520 and kind of going across boundaries too, and applying 464 00:28:51,760 --> 00:28:54,840 what you know about whether it's planarians or whatever, and 465 00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:58,120 incorporating that into other topics. 466 00:28:58,120 --> 00:29:00,480 I think we need more of that, 'cause I think that that's why 467 00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:04,160 people get frustrated with, and probably, and maybe you could 468 00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:06,280 speak to this, but it seems like there's a lot of frustrated 469 00:29:06,280 --> 00:29:09,040 scientists online and stuff, and they fight with a lot of people. 470 00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:12,440 They're get aggravated about people asking what are 471 00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:14,080 considered dumb questions or what. 472 00:29:14,080 --> 00:29:15,800 Maybe that's just the person or whatever. 473 00:29:15,800 --> 00:29:20,120 But it seems like when you get too deep into your own rabbit 474 00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:22,560 hole as a scientist, it's it's, you know, it gets a little 475 00:29:22,560 --> 00:29:24,560 monotonous maybe, or something. I don't know. 476 00:29:24,760 --> 00:29:27,920 Yeah. Well, obviously I'm biased 477 00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:32,400 towards science, but one thing that that I feel very strongly, 478 00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:34,960 and this sounds like a cliche, but I really mean it. 479 00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:37,120 There's no dumb questions. OK? 480 00:29:37,120 --> 00:29:39,040 If you don't know something, ask about it. 481 00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:44,760 One thing that I think makes me gives me a specific perspective 482 00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:48,920 on that is that one of my biggest courses right now it's 483 00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:51,440 Biological Sciences for non majors. 484 00:29:51,920 --> 00:29:58,240 I have like a big amphitheater with 250 people of majors 485 00:29:58,280 --> 00:30:01,760 throughout the university, literature, education. 486 00:30:02,280 --> 00:30:06,720 I don't know economics, so people who don't like science, 487 00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:09,880 OK, And that's OK. Not everybody has to like what 488 00:30:09,880 --> 00:30:14,680 we what we like, but that they are there just because they have 489 00:30:14,680 --> 00:30:18,160 to take the course. So I have to be a performer, OK, 490 00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:21,400 Because I have to make the class interesting for them. 491 00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:27,000 And science, it's perfectly situated to talk about 492 00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:28,640 interesting things. OK. 493 00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:32,840 Some of the examples that I've given you about the organisms 494 00:30:32,840 --> 00:30:37,160 that steal the weaponry, I use that in a general biology class 495 00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:42,800 like that and you know, and I would like to think that I get 496 00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:47,240 their attention. So then again, the this idea 497 00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:52,040 that science is something that it's only the purview of a 498 00:30:52,040 --> 00:30:54,760 selected few. It's stupid. 499 00:30:55,160 --> 00:31:00,000 I'm sorry, but anybody interested enough in science can 500 00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:03,280 learn about it, OK? That's another thing I love 501 00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:05,480 about you. You seem like an amazing science 502 00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:09,160 communicator, which I think that this this world lacks that. 503 00:31:09,160 --> 00:31:13,240 And when we they come along, we notice, you know, like, you 504 00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:16,040 know, whether you like Neil Tice, de Grasse or whatever, a 505 00:31:16,040 --> 00:31:17,760 lot of people don't like him, 'cause he doesn't believe in 506 00:31:17,760 --> 00:31:21,040 aliens or whatever, like what whatever you think about these 507 00:31:21,040 --> 00:31:23,600 people, like he's an amazing science communicator. 508 00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:25,560 You know, you'll learn more about the universe from 509 00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:28,600 listening to a three hour podcast of him on Joe Rogan, 510 00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:32,800 then you will probably picking up a textbook on on the matter, 511 00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:35,240 you know. So there's there's something to 512 00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:37,560 be said about that. And like I said, you're an 513 00:31:37,560 --> 00:31:40,640 amazing science communicator. Your books are well written, 514 00:31:40,640 --> 00:31:43,520 easy to understand, and I highly recommend people go check them 515 00:31:43,520 --> 00:31:46,720 out. One thing I wanted to talk about 516 00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:49,480 now too is kind of where all this stuff comes from. 517 00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:55,040 So like we split from what octopa octopuses 500 million 518 00:31:55,040 --> 00:31:57,600 years ago, roughly. I've read that paper about them 519 00:31:57,600 --> 00:31:59,840 being potentially alien, but I don't, you know, I know that 520 00:31:59,840 --> 00:32:05,960 there's a lot of, a lot of pushback on that, but OK, so 500 521 00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:08,800 million years ago. So that means that and they've 522 00:32:09,120 --> 00:32:12,840 in that paper with the MDMA, they react to MDMA, so they have 523 00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:17,280 serotonin receptors. So if that's the case that means 524 00:32:17,280 --> 00:32:20,960 that serotonin is at very least 500 million years old. 525 00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:25,040 How old do you think serotonin is and do you think that that's 526 00:32:25,040 --> 00:32:31,240 one of the first you know, receptors if you will, or you 527 00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:36,120 know what do you, what would you call it, external feedback or 528 00:32:36,120 --> 00:32:41,520 perception or something? Well, it can even go before from 529 00:32:41,520 --> 00:32:45,240 before vertebrates because many microorganisms, bacteria like 530 00:32:45,240 --> 00:32:49,320 amoebas, things like that. They do have receptors for many 531 00:32:49,320 --> 00:32:52,880 types of neurotransmitters including if I'm not mistaken, 532 00:32:52,880 --> 00:32:54,120 serotonin. OK. 533 00:32:54,560 --> 00:32:58,600 And that's the beauty of it, that throughout evolution, 534 00:32:59,320 --> 00:33:04,200 species like Co opt what allows them to survive and then it 535 00:33:04,200 --> 00:33:08,200 passes on to the next generation and then down the line they can 536 00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:10,840 be useful for something else and for something else and for 537 00:33:10,840 --> 00:33:15,400 something else. And for entities like us, OK, we 538 00:33:15,400 --> 00:33:19,640 can get our consciousness again, whatever that is stimulated by 539 00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:24,040 serotonin, something that probably started as a signaling 540 00:33:24,040 --> 00:33:25,480 molecule, because that's the thing. 541 00:33:26,080 --> 00:33:29,560 Even bacteria OK, display behavior. 542 00:33:30,280 --> 00:33:34,680 They can swim towards nutrients or away from a toxin and they 543 00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:38,560 don't have anything closely reminiscent to a nervous system 544 00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:44,400 and they display behavior, OK. So even though they may not be 545 00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:49,160 complex in that sense, the kernel of whatever we think of 546 00:33:49,160 --> 00:33:53,520 as behavior in quote UN quote higher organisms was already 547 00:33:53,520 --> 00:33:56,320 there. Yeah, after I watch that 548 00:33:56,320 --> 00:33:57,840 documentary. I don't know if you've seen an 549 00:33:57,840 --> 00:34:00,640 Octopus teacher on Netflix. I've heard. 550 00:34:01,040 --> 00:34:03,520 About it, it's in my queue. You should watch it. 551 00:34:03,520 --> 00:34:07,200 But after watching that I will never eat another octopus again. 552 00:34:08,280 --> 00:34:10,719 Squid now those guys are bastards. 553 00:34:10,719 --> 00:34:13,440 Eat as much squid as you want. They'll drown your ass off the 554 00:34:13,440 --> 00:34:17,880 coast of California. Those those where they devil or 555 00:34:17,880 --> 00:34:21,320 Humboldt squid or whatever. Oh my God, yes, they they try 556 00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:23,159 and drown swimmers. I don't know if you've seen 557 00:34:23,159 --> 00:34:24,880 these videos. They'll come up and try and 558 00:34:24,880 --> 00:34:25,719 pull. Yeah, we. 559 00:34:26,480 --> 00:34:27,520 Know they are. Nasty. 560 00:34:27,520 --> 00:34:30,520 Yeah, yeah. Eat your calamari. 561 00:34:30,520 --> 00:34:36,199 Don't eat your octopus. So, OK, so back to this. 562 00:34:36,199 --> 00:34:39,360 So like, I don't know that that paper, the MDMA paper which 563 00:34:39,360 --> 00:34:42,440 which I found funny that the octopus was trying to hug the 564 00:34:42,440 --> 00:34:48,320 other octopuses thing container almost like how a human would 565 00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:52,040 react on MDMA to hugging each other being close, you know. 566 00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:57,760 So, you know there's a lot there and you know I think that we're 567 00:34:57,760 --> 00:34:59,760 a lot closer in your books. You mentioned this. 568 00:34:59,760 --> 00:35:02,320 We're a lot closer to the animal world than we think we are. 569 00:35:02,320 --> 00:35:07,600 It's almost like we do ourselves a disservice by making ourselves 570 00:35:07,600 --> 00:35:11,000 feel separate or telling ourselves we're so much 571 00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:14,920 different than other primates in the animal world or whatever. 572 00:35:14,920 --> 00:35:18,960 But in reality, we're all kind of big sacks of endogenous 573 00:35:18,960 --> 00:35:20,960 chemicals and nervous systems, right? 574 00:35:20,960 --> 00:35:22,400 I mean, that's pretty much what it is. 575 00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:25,880 Yeah, we are cells. A bunch of cells trying to 576 00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:27,520 understand nature. That's it. 577 00:35:29,200 --> 00:35:32,160 And and of course there's other considerations about morality, 578 00:35:32,160 --> 00:35:36,120 spirituality, things like that. But science has nothing to to 579 00:35:36,120 --> 00:35:40,360 say about that. Yeah, I've always said science 580 00:35:40,360 --> 00:35:45,440 is really good at explaining how things work, but not good at 581 00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:48,400 explaining why things work. Absolutely. 582 00:35:48,720 --> 00:35:52,320 Yeah, you got it. So what else did I want? 583 00:35:52,320 --> 00:35:57,240 OK, so you mentioned dinosaurs and how they found Claviseps 584 00:35:57,240 --> 00:35:59,600 perpea, which is very fascinating to me. 585 00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:02,840 So I don't know if you're familiar, but there's a lot of 586 00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:05,480 talk about the Lucidian mysteries in ancient Greece and 587 00:36:05,480 --> 00:36:09,120 its connection, and they found Ergod and claviceps and a lot of 588 00:36:09,120 --> 00:36:11,000 these chalices and stuff like that. 589 00:36:11,600 --> 00:36:15,040 And it grows in the area of Elusis now. 590 00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:17,960 Are you, do you think it's possible that dinosaurs were 591 00:36:17,960 --> 00:36:22,000 somehow, you know, getting high off this stuff? 592 00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:27,640 Because I because claviceps or ergot itself is actually pretty 593 00:36:27,640 --> 00:36:30,280 toxic to human beings. Like, I don't know, you should 594 00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:32,440 never take that. I mean, it is a precursor for 595 00:36:32,440 --> 00:36:37,400 LSD, but it's not like LSA, which you could get from like a 596 00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:40,440 morning glory or a baby wood roast or something like that. 597 00:36:41,080 --> 00:36:44,240 This is something that would make you convulse and throw up 598 00:36:44,240 --> 00:36:49,920 and stuff like that. So it it's again it's logical 599 00:36:49,920 --> 00:36:54,200 that for example if a dinosaur could get their proverbial hands 600 00:36:54,200 --> 00:37:01,720 on a bunch of of the psychoactive fungus, they again, 601 00:37:01,720 --> 00:37:05,880 it's hard to to say but in all likelihood their nervous system 602 00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:09,200 is not much different from the nervous system of a another 603 00:37:09,200 --> 00:37:10,560 reptile. OK. 604 00:37:10,760 --> 00:37:15,200 So and again based on what we talked about the octopus before, 605 00:37:15,520 --> 00:37:19,600 they certainly had the same type of neurotransmitters, circuits, 606 00:37:19,600 --> 00:37:21,200 behaviors, all these type of things. 607 00:37:21,200 --> 00:37:28,120 So and and it would be a a sight to see a big dinosaur 608 00:37:28,320 --> 00:37:32,080 intoxicated. OK from a distance, let's just 609 00:37:32,080 --> 00:37:34,040 say. That would be awesome. 610 00:37:34,520 --> 00:37:38,960 Yeah. So OK, I mean, we're talking 611 00:37:38,960 --> 00:37:41,040 about a lot of hypothetical stuff here. 612 00:37:41,360 --> 00:37:44,720 I think a lot of this stuff comes down to tryptophan, right? 613 00:37:44,720 --> 00:37:50,080 Isn't that the 1st important thing when it comes to breaking 614 00:37:50,080 --> 00:37:53,600 down enzymes and ingesting these compounds and things of that 615 00:37:53,600 --> 00:37:55,000 nature? How do we know how old 616 00:37:55,000 --> 00:37:58,080 tryptophan is? Well, tryptophan is one of the 617 00:37:58,080 --> 00:38:01,320 20 biologically relevant neurotransmitters. 618 00:38:01,640 --> 00:38:07,440 OK, so it's been around the proverbial forever in our 619 00:38:07,440 --> 00:38:09,160 planet. It's a relatively simple 620 00:38:09,160 --> 00:38:15,520 compound and it's in everywhere. Anything alive contains 621 00:38:15,520 --> 00:38:19,760 tryptophan, but it happens to be one of the precursors of this 622 00:38:19,760 --> 00:38:23,640 line of neurotransmitters. OK, just like in the same way 623 00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:27,400 other neurotransmitters are. The, I'm sorry, other amino 624 00:38:27,400 --> 00:38:30,680 acids are the precursors of neurotransmitters. 625 00:38:30,680 --> 00:38:35,200 For example, glutamic acid is the most prevalent 626 00:38:35,200 --> 00:38:38,960 neurotransmitter in any nervous system, and it's also an amino 627 00:38:38,960 --> 00:38:41,360 acid in its own right in proteins. 628 00:38:41,960 --> 00:38:44,880 OK, so the same thing with many others. 629 00:38:45,440 --> 00:38:49,560 So, but again what I'm trying to say is tryptophan, it's a very 630 00:38:50,560 --> 00:38:56,120 basic building block of proteins and it has been Co opted as a 631 00:38:56,120 --> 00:38:59,000 signaling molecule, as a precursor of a signaling 632 00:38:59,000 --> 00:39:01,920 molecule I should say. Interesting. 633 00:39:01,920 --> 00:39:05,400 Interesting. Is there any animal or insect 634 00:39:05,400 --> 00:39:07,960 that we know that gets high on their own supply, meaning that 635 00:39:07,960 --> 00:39:12,880 they create something and then they also become, you know, they 636 00:39:12,880 --> 00:39:17,040 become psychoactive to them from their own bodies cause like the 637 00:39:17,040 --> 00:39:20,160 only reason why I ask is obviously we have proven we 638 00:39:20,160 --> 00:39:23,840 produce. DMTDMT is also one of the most 639 00:39:23,840 --> 00:39:26,400 psychedelic compounds you can imagine. 640 00:39:26,400 --> 00:39:29,600 So is there anything in the animal or insect Kingdom that 641 00:39:29,600 --> 00:39:33,520 has something similar? Not that, not to my knowledge, 642 00:39:33,520 --> 00:39:36,160 not that, nothing that comes to mind, but that's a very 643 00:39:36,160 --> 00:39:40,800 interesting question. Now you're making me think, and 644 00:39:40,800 --> 00:39:43,600 I thank you for that. That's all we try and do here 645 00:39:43,600 --> 00:39:46,360 is, you know, critically think and ask interesting questions. 646 00:39:46,360 --> 00:39:48,240 And these are, this is just stuff I'm interested in. 647 00:39:48,240 --> 00:39:50,800 And like I said, when I appreciate somebody's work and I 648 00:39:50,800 --> 00:39:53,720 think that they do great stuff, it it inspires me too. 649 00:39:53,720 --> 00:39:57,280 'cause like, you know, doing this podcast for six years, you 650 00:39:57,280 --> 00:39:59,400 know, there's certain things that maybe I was interested in 651 00:39:59,400 --> 00:40:04,320 five years ago, four years ago. It's no longer hitting that, you 652 00:40:04,320 --> 00:40:07,080 know, hitting that zone for me. So it's I gotta branch out and. 653 00:40:07,480 --> 00:40:09,760 You know, your books came along in a great time. 654 00:40:09,760 --> 00:40:12,320 And yeah, it's just something I've been fascinated with. 655 00:40:12,320 --> 00:40:14,240 I'm trying to get into the origins and look at like our 656 00:40:14,240 --> 00:40:21,320 evolution, evolution in general. And yeah, So is there anything 657 00:40:21,320 --> 00:40:28,760 you can think of that in terms of bizarre behaviors from 658 00:40:28,800 --> 00:40:31,560 animals that instead of, you know, like we talked about the 659 00:40:31,560 --> 00:40:34,760 dolphins, is there anything else that, you know, you want to 660 00:40:34,800 --> 00:40:36,880 actually, can we talk about the drunken flies? 661 00:40:36,880 --> 00:40:38,520 Let's talk about the drunken flies for a second. 662 00:40:39,320 --> 00:40:42,680 Absolutely, that that's something that I got very amused 663 00:40:42,680 --> 00:40:46,360 when I began to to do the research for the book. 664 00:40:46,360 --> 00:40:51,560 Because going taking a step back, I began thinking about 665 00:40:51,720 --> 00:40:55,360 animals and drugs based on my own experiments with planaria. 666 00:40:56,240 --> 00:41:00,720 Because then I started thinking, well, what other animals can get 667 00:41:01,040 --> 00:41:05,280 intoxicated and and it opened a new world for me. 668 00:41:05,360 --> 00:41:07,040 I wasn't aware that there were so many. 669 00:41:07,480 --> 00:41:13,400 But then The funny thing about Drosophila, it's the fruit flies 670 00:41:13,960 --> 00:41:20,280 is that they, especially the male ones, when they are devoid 671 00:41:20,400 --> 00:41:24,400 of female companionship. If you get my meaning, they 672 00:41:24,400 --> 00:41:29,480 prefer to freedom fermented fruit as opposed to fresh fruit. 673 00:41:30,640 --> 00:41:35,040 OK, so when they are prevented from interacting with females 674 00:41:35,040 --> 00:41:38,160 that they do that. So and all the jokes about 675 00:41:38,160 --> 00:41:41,160 drowning your sorrows when you are rejected. 676 00:41:41,400 --> 00:41:44,320 It's pretty much the same thing for male Drosophila. 677 00:41:44,760 --> 00:41:49,440 OK, but then for example female Drosophila. 678 00:41:49,880 --> 00:41:54,360 They also preferentially lay their eggs in fermented fruit in 679 00:41:54,360 --> 00:41:57,720 many cases. But in that case is just to 680 00:41:57,720 --> 00:42:03,840 protect their eggs against other predators that they are, so that 681 00:42:04,040 --> 00:42:09,840 it's something so fascinating that probably the very first 682 00:42:09,840 --> 00:42:14,280 psychoactive drug that we get in got in touch with alcohol. 683 00:42:14,520 --> 00:42:17,560 OK, it's something that, again, it didn't start with us. 684 00:42:18,560 --> 00:42:23,080 It began with our animal cousins millions of years ago, and then 685 00:42:23,080 --> 00:42:28,320 we can go Fast forward to the idea of the drunken monkey 686 00:42:28,320 --> 00:42:31,480 hypothesis. So this is the yet another. 687 00:42:31,480 --> 00:42:34,200 It's like a parallel of the Stone 8 hypothesis. 688 00:42:34,200 --> 00:42:34,800 Is. Yeah. 689 00:42:34,800 --> 00:42:37,600 Is that the 1:00 where they're eating fermented fruits and 690 00:42:37,600 --> 00:42:38,280 become. Yeah. 691 00:42:38,520 --> 00:42:39,600 OK. Exactly. 692 00:42:39,800 --> 00:42:45,240 But there's a little bit more scientific evidence for that 693 00:42:45,240 --> 00:42:48,800 one, as opposed to the Stone Age hypothesis because. 694 00:42:48,880 --> 00:42:52,840 Why is it so toxic to us still though, like obviously, like, 695 00:42:52,960 --> 00:42:56,000 OK, so me personally, I'm not, I am not an alcohol fan. 696 00:42:56,000 --> 00:42:59,320 I've had you know, people die in my family from alcohols and 697 00:42:59,320 --> 00:43:03,160 that's not why I just, I even anytime I've I'll drink a cold, 698 00:43:03,360 --> 00:43:06,640 you know Modelo on a on a hot day or something like that or 699 00:43:06,640 --> 00:43:10,800 I'll have one or two. But I don't really enjoy alcohol 700 00:43:10,800 --> 00:43:13,720 as a compound compared to other compounds like, you know, 701 00:43:13,800 --> 00:43:15,600 cannabis or psilocybin or whatever. 702 00:43:16,200 --> 00:43:19,680 It just, it feels like it's not supposed to be in our bodies to 703 00:43:19,680 --> 00:43:21,440 me. And I know. 704 00:43:22,520 --> 00:43:24,680 Most of us don't produce it endogenously. 705 00:43:24,680 --> 00:43:29,160 Some people do, but but because they can get the current 706 00:43:29,160 --> 00:43:33,600 understanding is that they can get, for example, a bad yeast 707 00:43:33,600 --> 00:43:36,000 infection and insensitive people. 708 00:43:36,000 --> 00:43:40,120 They can produce high amounts of alcohol in in their blood. 709 00:43:40,760 --> 00:43:42,240 That's interesting. I didn't know that you could. 710 00:43:42,240 --> 00:43:45,080 So there's people that actually produce alcohol in there about 711 00:43:45,080 --> 00:43:48,600 oh wow, I didn't even know the. There's been cases of people 712 00:43:48,600 --> 00:43:54,880 that have been mistakenly accused of being drunk because 713 00:43:54,880 --> 00:43:58,160 of drinking and whatnot, but only to be demonstrated that 714 00:43:58,160 --> 00:43:59,880 they can produce it endogenously. 715 00:44:00,400 --> 00:44:02,680 That's crazy. That's fascinating. 716 00:44:03,320 --> 00:44:05,040 Oh yeah, at least, absolutely not. 717 00:44:05,320 --> 00:44:08,160 There's not very many cases about that, but it's been 718 00:44:08,160 --> 00:44:10,920 documented. But the thing about it, I'm just 719 00:44:10,920 --> 00:44:13,640 like you. My limit is like 1 beer when I 720 00:44:13,640 --> 00:44:16,560 mow the lawn. OK, things like that, that that 721 00:44:16,560 --> 00:44:21,800 that's me. But then it's a compound that in 722 00:44:21,800 --> 00:44:26,480 moderation is not going to be poisonous to you. 723 00:44:27,160 --> 00:44:32,000 OK, but then it's a cost benefit ratio. 724 00:44:32,280 --> 00:44:34,760 Let's suppose that you are a small primate. 725 00:44:34,880 --> 00:44:39,560 OK, again, under nutritional deprivation and you are 726 00:44:39,800 --> 00:44:44,160 undernourished. But then those fermented fruit 727 00:44:44,400 --> 00:44:47,920 not only have the vitamins and minerals and whatnot, but 728 00:44:47,960 --> 00:44:50,760 alcohol is rich in calories, right? 729 00:44:50,960 --> 00:44:53,240 So. So one of the things that they 730 00:44:53,640 --> 00:44:56,400 advise people who want to lose weight and whatnot, well, try 731 00:44:56,400 --> 00:45:01,200 not to drink, because alcohol has a very high caloric content. 732 00:45:01,520 --> 00:45:06,000 But if you are undernourished in the wild, that's what you want, 733 00:45:06,360 --> 00:45:08,240 to get as many calories as as you can. 734 00:45:08,680 --> 00:45:11,000 Well, that was the argument too. For like the beginning of 735 00:45:11,000 --> 00:45:14,320 civilization, right? Like water was such gross, 736 00:45:14,320 --> 00:45:18,240 filled with parasites and bacteria that that's why alcohol 737 00:45:18,240 --> 00:45:23,320 was kind of like a an accelerant on civilization. 738 00:45:23,320 --> 00:45:27,000 And you would find in Gobekli, Tepe and Ancient Egypt, you 739 00:45:27,000 --> 00:45:30,360 would find the bakery next to the brewery because of the 740 00:45:30,360 --> 00:45:32,720 yeast. So, Yep, absolutely, yeah. 741 00:45:34,080 --> 00:45:38,560 So I mean though, I mean it still is talking like, you know, 742 00:45:38,560 --> 00:45:41,400 like you said like little amounts, but does that add up? 743 00:45:41,880 --> 00:45:45,240 You know, I know your liver can recover pretty well compared to 744 00:45:45,240 --> 00:45:46,840 other organs and stuff like that. 745 00:45:46,920 --> 00:45:51,320 But is it something that like you the old adage like if you 746 00:45:51,320 --> 00:45:53,200 have one cigarette, it takes seven years off. 747 00:45:53,200 --> 00:45:55,800 You're like whatever myth that was growing up, it's like you've 748 00:45:55,800 --> 00:45:57,720 smoked. It takes seven days off your 749 00:45:57,720 --> 00:45:59,240 life. Or is that the same thing with 750 00:45:59,240 --> 00:46:02,080 alcohol where like no amount is good for you but you could 751 00:46:02,360 --> 00:46:05,920 tolerate it kind of a thing or? It's gonna depend on the person 752 00:46:05,920 --> 00:46:11,960 because the amount of genetic variability that we have as a 753 00:46:11,960 --> 00:46:15,880 species, some people are going to be hypersensitive to. 754 00:46:18,720 --> 00:46:21,240 I know how to explain it. There's there's a branch of 755 00:46:21,240 --> 00:46:23,600 pharmacology called pharmacogenetics. 756 00:46:23,800 --> 00:46:27,040 OK. And that goes to the idea that 757 00:46:27,040 --> 00:46:35,040 right now pharmaceutical practices most sizes fit most 758 00:46:35,360 --> 00:46:37,320 OK. What I'm trying to say is that, 759 00:46:37,320 --> 00:46:40,400 for example, you go to the doctor and they find that you 760 00:46:40,400 --> 00:46:44,360 have hypertension, OK? She prescribes a certain 761 00:46:44,360 --> 00:46:46,960 medication against high blood pressure. 762 00:46:47,200 --> 00:46:50,680 They begin with a very small dose and then they told you. 763 00:46:50,760 --> 00:46:53,600 They tell you come back in three months, they check you out. 764 00:46:53,600 --> 00:46:56,800 If you still hypertense, they will give you a little bit of 765 00:46:56,800 --> 00:47:00,680 medicine until you get to the maximum amount that is safe. 766 00:47:01,160 --> 00:47:06,440 If that still doesn't work, they test another hypertension, 767 00:47:06,520 --> 00:47:11,080 Hypertension medicine. So the the dream, as it were, is 768 00:47:11,080 --> 00:47:15,480 in a Star Trek society that they will scan you and they will tell 769 00:47:15,480 --> 00:47:18,760 you, OK, the medicine that you need is this one in this 770 00:47:18,760 --> 00:47:22,680 concentration, in this dosage. But it's the same thing with 771 00:47:22,680 --> 00:47:25,280 alcohol. I can get dizzy with a beer. 772 00:47:25,280 --> 00:47:28,360 That's part of the reason why my limit is 1 beer while mowing the 773 00:47:28,360 --> 00:47:31,880 lawn. OK, some people need more, quite 774 00:47:31,880 --> 00:47:35,160 more than a beer to get the same amount of dizziness. 775 00:47:35,480 --> 00:47:42,320 That's based on our genes too. OK, so then again, we will not 776 00:47:42,320 --> 00:47:44,760 know until we do the proverbial experiment. 777 00:47:45,240 --> 00:47:51,520 And that's, let's put it this way, I wouldn't try to taste a 778 00:47:51,520 --> 00:47:53,320 mushroom that I don't know about. 779 00:47:54,080 --> 00:47:58,000 OK, that can nourish me, can get me high, but it can also kill 780 00:47:58,000 --> 00:48:00,080 me, right? So I don't want to be the 781 00:48:00,080 --> 00:48:02,360 subject of that experiment if you don't want it. 782 00:48:02,760 --> 00:48:04,880 Yeah, you got to be careful, even ones. 783 00:48:04,880 --> 00:48:08,120 I mean, you know, there's so many mushroom. 784 00:48:08,120 --> 00:48:10,280 I Dean is probably the one of the most dangerous things. 785 00:48:10,280 --> 00:48:12,600 I see people online all the time on like forums. 786 00:48:12,600 --> 00:48:15,640 Like, can I eat this mushroom? Don't eat the mushroom, Don't. 787 00:48:15,640 --> 00:48:17,920 If you don't know what it is and you're not an expert, don't eat 788 00:48:17,920 --> 00:48:21,360 it, because there's a good chance that it's not what you 789 00:48:21,360 --> 00:48:23,640 think it is. And even, you know, there's a 790 00:48:23,640 --> 00:48:25,440 lot of people be like, oh, this is Ammonita. 791 00:48:25,440 --> 00:48:27,320 Yeah, it's a different kind of an Ammonita. 792 00:48:27,320 --> 00:48:29,480 It's Panthera, it's not muscaria. 793 00:48:29,480 --> 00:48:32,600 And it, you know, it's the the it's got different effects and 794 00:48:32,600 --> 00:48:34,840 you know, you better know how to get rid of the convert the 795 00:48:34,840 --> 00:48:38,560 epitanic acid into muscamol before you start, you know, that 796 00:48:38,560 --> 00:48:40,880 kind of stuff. I'm sorry for interrupting it. 797 00:48:40,880 --> 00:48:43,600 What if you're you turn to be allergic and you don't know it? 798 00:48:43,680 --> 00:48:44,880 Exactly. Oh yeah. 799 00:48:45,480 --> 00:48:48,200 Allergy. Yeah, yeah absolutely. 800 00:48:51,000 --> 00:48:52,840 What interests you? Like what? 801 00:48:52,840 --> 00:48:55,600 Is there anything fascinating to you right now in the in these 802 00:48:55,600 --> 00:48:58,840 realms that like a mystery or something that you're you're 803 00:48:58,840 --> 00:49:01,720 getting into? I always ask this cause like 804 00:49:02,160 --> 00:49:05,280 it's one thing for us to read your book and be fascinating, 805 00:49:05,280 --> 00:49:08,600 but is there something that you find mysterious or you find 806 00:49:08,600 --> 00:49:13,680 interesting? Well, it's kind of out of my 807 00:49:13,880 --> 00:49:17,320 direct area of expertise, but I'm learning a little, a little 808 00:49:17,320 --> 00:49:20,360 bit about it. It's the idea that quantum 809 00:49:20,360 --> 00:49:25,240 mechanics has a lot to do with pharm, has more to do with 810 00:49:25,240 --> 00:49:27,640 pharmacology than we would like to realize. 811 00:49:28,560 --> 00:49:31,400 OK. So and I'm not talking about for 812 00:49:31,400 --> 00:49:33,880 people when they say, well, everything is quantum, that's a 813 00:49:33,880 --> 00:49:37,600 pet peeve that I have when people say, well, we don't 814 00:49:37,600 --> 00:49:42,120 understand quantum, OK, so that that's not the way it works. 815 00:49:42,480 --> 00:49:46,360 OK. But then there's a lot of lines 816 00:49:46,360 --> 00:49:51,720 of evidence that indicate that quantum effects affect 817 00:49:51,880 --> 00:49:55,200 pharmacological agents and that's an area of research 818 00:49:55,200 --> 00:50:01,080 that's beginning to come about. There's a whole like body of 819 00:50:01,080 --> 00:50:05,840 knowledge called quantum biology that people have found that 820 00:50:05,840 --> 00:50:08,840 photosynthesis deals with quantum effects. 821 00:50:09,200 --> 00:50:11,920 OK. Many types of DNA interactions 822 00:50:12,160 --> 00:50:15,240 in terms of how DNA find their bases and all these type of 823 00:50:15,240 --> 00:50:18,320 things. So it's about quantum effects. 824 00:50:18,640 --> 00:50:20,400 I I don't know who I was talking to. 825 00:50:20,400 --> 00:50:22,520 I recently found out there's different types of 826 00:50:22,520 --> 00:50:24,960 photosynthesis too. Yes. 827 00:50:25,240 --> 00:50:26,280 I didn't know. I didn't know. 828 00:50:26,280 --> 00:50:28,800 You just learn like, oh, photos. But there's different. 829 00:50:28,800 --> 00:50:32,920 It's crazy. Not only that, there's a a type 830 00:50:32,920 --> 00:50:39,320 of insect that evolved a type of photosynthesis different from 831 00:50:39,320 --> 00:50:43,960 the photosynthesis in plants, and I'll do you one better. 832 00:50:44,320 --> 00:50:49,280 There's a such thing as radiotrophic fungi, certain 833 00:50:49,280 --> 00:50:54,160 types of fungus, that they grow up in the inside of nuclear 834 00:50:54,160 --> 00:50:59,000 reactors, and they use radioactivity as their source of 835 00:50:59,800 --> 00:51:03,080 it's not photosynthesis because it's not right, but but they use 836 00:51:03,080 --> 00:51:05,840 it as a kind of photosynthesis based on radiation. 837 00:51:05,920 --> 00:51:08,840 Yeah, I read that because they were talking about Chernobyl. 838 00:51:09,680 --> 00:51:13,360 Yes, that's part of the and then there's another one now where 839 00:51:13,360 --> 00:51:16,320 they're saying now there's fungi that can break down plastics 840 00:51:16,320 --> 00:51:18,280 like forever plastics somehow so. 841 00:51:18,280 --> 00:51:22,600 And bacteria, they they they it's biotechnology something. 842 00:51:23,440 --> 00:51:26,960 It's beautiful. It's a little scary but but but 843 00:51:26,960 --> 00:51:30,240 it's beautiful. I mean, they can do pretty much 844 00:51:30,240 --> 00:51:36,280 anything. So in terms of, you know, we're 845 00:51:36,280 --> 00:51:43,040 talking about all this amazing stuff is there you know I 846 00:51:43,040 --> 00:51:46,200 mentioned before like learning pharmacology at an early age to 847 00:51:46,200 --> 00:51:50,400 avoid people growing up and not knowing what, you know, fentanyl 848 00:51:50,400 --> 00:51:53,160 or whatever these harmful substances are. 849 00:51:53,160 --> 00:51:56,520 And to understand that like we live in a world now where even 850 00:51:56,520 --> 00:51:59,320 if you are a part of your doing recreational drugs, you got to 851 00:51:59,320 --> 00:52:01,800 be careful. Cause the cocaine might be laced 852 00:52:01,800 --> 00:52:04,560 with fentanyl or the heroin might be laced with fentanyl or 853 00:52:04,560 --> 00:52:06,720 the, you know. And while some of these 854 00:52:06,720 --> 00:52:09,480 compounds even MDMA, I've heard too. 855 00:52:09,480 --> 00:52:12,640 So it's like anything powder, you got to be careful, you got 856 00:52:12,640 --> 00:52:15,080 to test your stuff if you are going to do that. 857 00:52:15,080 --> 00:52:19,000 Nobody recommends that. But if you are going to that you 858 00:52:19,000 --> 00:52:22,200 test your stuff. We've lost countless people, 859 00:52:23,360 --> 00:52:26,040 family members, friends to the whole fentanyl thing. 860 00:52:26,040 --> 00:52:29,920 It's just, it's very and you mentioned in your book when you 861 00:52:29,920 --> 00:52:34,080 start off you're talking about opioids actually or opiates and 862 00:52:34,760 --> 00:52:38,600 you have your opiates which are all derivative of the actual 863 00:52:38,600 --> 00:52:41,360 plant and then you have the semi synthetic ones that is 864 00:52:41,560 --> 00:52:43,880 fentanyl's synthetic, correct. It's not. 865 00:52:43,880 --> 00:52:46,440 It's not even related to the poppy plant at all, right? 866 00:52:47,280 --> 00:52:50,160 So it it's similar but but it's a synthetic compound. 867 00:52:51,400 --> 00:52:56,280 So that one, that's one where the the dose, you know, all you 868 00:52:56,280 --> 00:52:59,080 need is a little dose for it to be poison, which is crazy. 869 00:53:00,600 --> 00:53:02,680 We go back to what we were talking about. 870 00:53:02,800 --> 00:53:06,040 Someone, someone can be resistant to it but somebody may 871 00:53:06,040 --> 00:53:10,880 be hypersensitive to that. So, and again, drug addiction is 872 00:53:10,880 --> 00:53:15,400 something is a tragedy at so many levels. 873 00:53:15,760 --> 00:53:21,600 And and as a parent, I mean, that terrifies me Still so. 874 00:53:22,480 --> 00:53:26,440 That's one of the scariest things, especially if you've got 875 00:53:26,440 --> 00:53:28,160 young kids. Now, you know, what is the world 876 00:53:28,160 --> 00:53:31,080 going to look like in 10 years or five years or whatever? 877 00:53:33,040 --> 00:53:35,480 So, OK, so we're talking about something that's super minute 878 00:53:35,480 --> 00:53:37,000 that can have a massive impact on us. 879 00:53:37,000 --> 00:53:38,280 But is it? I was thinking, you know, how 880 00:53:38,280 --> 00:53:41,480 like they say like, oh, ants can carry 300 times their body 881 00:53:41,480 --> 00:53:45,080 weight or any. Is there some insect or animal 882 00:53:45,080 --> 00:53:48,800 that can withstand serious amounts of some sort of thing 883 00:53:48,800 --> 00:53:51,080 that would kill anything else or something like that? 884 00:53:51,080 --> 00:53:52,400 Does that make sense, that question? 885 00:53:52,560 --> 00:53:54,400 Yes, I I know exactly what you mean. 886 00:53:54,400 --> 00:53:58,000 And there's one, there's a particular type of insect that 887 00:53:58,000 --> 00:54:01,560 actually feeds on coca plants, OK. 888 00:54:01,800 --> 00:54:07,120 And they can ingest massive amounts of of the plant and of 889 00:54:07,120 --> 00:54:12,680 course cocaine, the active principle and they don't get it 890 00:54:12,680 --> 00:54:15,080 doesn't it's not an insecticide to them. 891 00:54:15,600 --> 00:54:20,120 OK. So and they it's most most 892 00:54:20,120 --> 00:54:22,920 likely an artifact of their metabolism. 893 00:54:22,920 --> 00:54:25,760 Maybe they metabolize it very rapidly. 894 00:54:25,760 --> 00:54:29,440 They inactivated very rapidly. They can use that. 895 00:54:29,440 --> 00:54:32,760 They can actually accumulate that in their bodies, presumably 896 00:54:33,080 --> 00:54:36,240 to protect themselves as a population. 897 00:54:36,760 --> 00:54:38,920 So are they synth? So when it comes into their 898 00:54:38,920 --> 00:54:41,400 body, are they synthesizing it into something else? 899 00:54:41,400 --> 00:54:44,080 Or is it just staying in their body as cocaine? 900 00:54:45,520 --> 00:54:47,440 Most likely they'll metabolize it. 901 00:54:47,760 --> 00:54:50,640 OK, I'm not entirely familiar with that. 902 00:54:51,560 --> 00:54:53,480 Let's put it this way. I'm not an expert in that 903 00:54:53,480 --> 00:54:57,440 particular area, but most likely, as a general rule, 904 00:54:57,960 --> 00:55:00,280 everything gets metabolized in a body. 905 00:55:00,720 --> 00:55:04,640 OK, so anything and everything. That's part of the reason why 906 00:55:04,640 --> 00:55:07,160 you have to be careful with dosages of medications and 907 00:55:07,160 --> 00:55:12,440 whatnot, because sometimes it gets changed into substances 908 00:55:12,440 --> 00:55:16,320 that you're going to excrete. OK, the usual suspects, that's 909 00:55:16,320 --> 00:55:19,680 part of the idea. But sometimes they will 910 00:55:19,840 --> 00:55:22,960 transform into toxic things, right? 911 00:55:23,200 --> 00:55:26,360 Ethanol, it can be transformed into something called 912 00:55:26,360 --> 00:55:29,960 acetaldehyde for example, which can be highly toxic. 913 00:55:30,320 --> 00:55:35,120 So, but in as a general rule, even though the liver is the 914 00:55:35,120 --> 00:55:41,280 main organ of metabolism, every cell in your body and mind, they 915 00:55:41,280 --> 00:55:43,960 have certain degree of metabolic capabilities. 916 00:55:44,920 --> 00:55:49,120 So that that's how they survive. Very interesting. 917 00:55:51,680 --> 00:55:53,920 I don't know. Have you seen these lately? 918 00:55:53,920 --> 00:55:56,840 Them using how they're using AI to try and communicate with the 919 00:55:56,840 --> 00:55:59,080 whales and the the dolphins and stuff I've. 920 00:55:59,600 --> 00:56:03,760 Heard about it and it's that's super fascinating because that 921 00:56:03,760 --> 00:56:08,440 that has implications and if and when we discover life elsewhere 922 00:56:08,880 --> 00:56:13,880 because one of the main oh actually this goes you're going 923 00:56:13,880 --> 00:56:17,080 to love this one. There was a scientist in the 924 00:56:17,080 --> 00:56:24,600 1960s that he actually gave LSD to dolphins, actually. 925 00:56:25,320 --> 00:56:28,400 And I forget what's what's the the name. 926 00:56:28,600 --> 00:56:31,760 Are you talking about John C Lilly? 927 00:56:32,480 --> 00:56:35,080 Yes, that that's the. One, and he had the deprivation 928 00:56:35,080 --> 00:56:38,200 tanks and he was injecting ketamine trying to communicate. 929 00:56:38,200 --> 00:56:40,880 Yeah, we know about that on this show. 930 00:56:41,360 --> 00:56:45,440 Well, yeah, but. The link, The link of Lilly with 931 00:56:45,440 --> 00:56:49,360 the Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence is that in the very 932 00:56:49,360 --> 00:56:52,760 first conference, when I'm sure you're familiar with the Drake 933 00:56:52,760 --> 00:56:56,760 equation and all these type of things, in the meeting where 934 00:56:57,560 --> 00:57:00,880 Frank Drake came up with the Drake Equation, one of the 935 00:57:00,880 --> 00:57:07,000 attendees was John Lilly. Because they reasoned that if we 936 00:57:07,600 --> 00:57:12,800 hope to communicate with some place, some, some something out 937 00:57:12,800 --> 00:57:16,120 there, we first learn, should learn how to communicate with 938 00:57:16,280 --> 00:57:19,760 things in our own planet. And Lily was trying, was a 939 00:57:19,760 --> 00:57:22,440 pioneer to try to communicate with dolphins. 940 00:57:22,440 --> 00:57:27,160 Then he went out of, you know, he there were many, you know. 941 00:57:27,960 --> 00:57:30,560 Hey man, I mean, when when you start playing with altered 942 00:57:30,560 --> 00:57:33,520 states of consciousness and deprivation tanks, you can get 943 00:57:33,520 --> 00:57:38,400 out there and you know, you know, it happens. 944 00:57:38,400 --> 00:57:40,880 But like you said, there's probably some good Nuggets in 945 00:57:40,880 --> 00:57:42,600 there from the early days at least. 946 00:57:42,600 --> 00:57:45,960 And you know, that's something that's interesting too, Cause 947 00:57:45,960 --> 00:57:48,040 dolphins don't. They have a larger frontal 948 00:57:48,040 --> 00:57:51,400 cortex than we do. They have their whole brain is 949 00:57:51,400 --> 00:57:55,640 bigger than ours, especially for in proportion to their bodies 950 00:57:56,040 --> 00:57:58,640 so. So, but but isn't the the 951 00:57:58,760 --> 00:58:02,560 prevailing wisdom that is it's our front like our frontal 952 00:58:02,560 --> 00:58:08,800 cortex is what kind of distinguishes us cognitively 953 00:58:08,800 --> 00:58:10,920 from the rest of like we have a large frontal. 954 00:58:10,920 --> 00:58:15,120 So if they have a massive frontal cortex, there's probably 955 00:58:15,120 --> 00:58:17,080 a good chance that we probably can communicate with them And 956 00:58:17,080 --> 00:58:19,640 they are super intelligent and maybe they just don't have the 957 00:58:19,640 --> 00:58:23,000 hands and appendages and poseable thumbs and tools that 958 00:58:23,000 --> 00:58:25,160 we've evolved with, right. So yeah. 959 00:58:25,400 --> 00:58:29,760 Yeah, they they don't have the, the the digits to to create a 960 00:58:29,760 --> 00:58:34,400 technological intelligence, no. Very fascinating. 961 00:58:36,080 --> 00:58:38,320 Well, listen, let's try and wrap it up here. 962 00:58:38,320 --> 00:58:40,080 But I I mean, I we could do this forever. 963 00:58:40,080 --> 00:58:42,720 So let's let's try and maybe set up another time for you to come 964 00:58:42,720 --> 00:58:43,760 back on. I'd love to. 965 00:58:43,760 --> 00:58:46,360 I'll. Be happy to do that then. 966 00:58:46,360 --> 00:58:48,840 I'm just a little under the weather but like this is super 967 00:58:48,840 --> 00:58:50,480 fascinating to me. Like I said and I'm. 968 00:58:50,480 --> 00:58:54,720 I'm excited and yeah, I mean I I got to finish your your one book 969 00:58:54,720 --> 00:58:58,080 still Strange Survivors. So once I finish that maybe we 970 00:58:58,080 --> 00:59:02,000 can get you back on here and continuing the conversation here 971 00:59:02,000 --> 00:59:04,600 but is there anything else you wanna plug? 972 00:59:04,600 --> 00:59:08,400 You're doing your podcast. I would actually from you know, 973 00:59:08,400 --> 00:59:11,200 I'm, I'm not one to tell but I would like to see you interview 974 00:59:11,200 --> 00:59:14,600 some of these people that are doing the research on these you 975 00:59:14,600 --> 00:59:19,840 know cocaine insects and you know you know puffer fish and. 976 00:59:20,680 --> 00:59:23,560 I'm thinking about that. I have a lot of plans for that 977 00:59:24,320 --> 00:59:28,680 because I like so many things that it's a it's a blessing and 978 00:59:28,680 --> 00:59:30,640 a curse. You know, I I know. 979 00:59:30,640 --> 00:59:32,840 You know exactly what I mean. Oh. 980 00:59:32,880 --> 00:59:35,360 Absolutely it. It's something that that's in 981 00:59:35,400 --> 00:59:38,840 the plans, but but again, I thank you for for having me. 982 00:59:39,200 --> 00:59:43,040 I love talking about this and I really appreciate it. 983 00:59:43,400 --> 00:59:44,760 I really. Oh, oh, no problem. 984 00:59:44,760 --> 00:59:46,480 No problem. Like I said, I I mean, I was 985 00:59:46,480 --> 00:59:49,320 asking you things that I've wondered about for a while, and 986 00:59:49,640 --> 00:59:52,760 reading your book definitely, like I said, inspired me. 987 00:59:52,760 --> 00:59:56,320 And lately I haven't. You know, I'm such an avid 988 00:59:56,320 --> 00:59:59,000 reader. I've read probably 1000 books 989 00:59:59,000 --> 01:00:02,360 since this podcast, you know, maybe even more, and tons of 990 01:00:02,360 --> 01:00:04,640 scientific papers since we started this podcast. 991 01:00:05,200 --> 01:00:08,680 And lately I just haven't felt much like it. 992 01:00:08,680 --> 01:00:11,680 But you know, you're I'm like, I'm gonna check out this book 993 01:00:11,680 --> 01:00:14,080 and your book kind of re got me into it. 994 01:00:14,080 --> 01:00:18,400 And I'm always listening to like play DoH dialogues at night and 995 01:00:18,400 --> 01:00:21,120 weird stuff like that. But this kind of reinvigorated 996 01:00:21,120 --> 01:00:24,600 me into the whole. You know, mystery thing and 997 01:00:24,600 --> 01:00:27,880 trying to figure out these these modern mysteries if you will. 998 01:00:27,880 --> 01:00:30,480 Especially with the animals. Cuz I love animals. 999 01:00:30,480 --> 01:00:34,400 I grew up being very close to animals, having pets and going 1000 01:00:34,400 --> 01:00:38,440 to aquariums and having you know pet bass lick lizards and all 1001 01:00:38,440 --> 01:00:41,640 sorts of different things. So yeah. 1002 01:00:42,840 --> 01:00:45,320 That's high praise again and that's what it's about. 1003 01:00:45,680 --> 01:00:48,440 And if you have any other questions, if your listeners 1004 01:00:48,440 --> 01:00:51,720 have questions, they can send me an e-mail. 1005 01:00:51,960 --> 01:00:53,960 They can send me a message through my website 1006 01:00:54,240 --> 01:00:57,000 bothscientists.com. They have a form there. 1007 01:00:57,800 --> 01:01:01,360 I I I love talking about science, so I I'll welcome any 1008 01:01:01,360 --> 01:01:02,720 type of. Please do that. 1009 01:01:02,720 --> 01:01:04,760 If anybody's listening, please send. 1010 01:01:04,760 --> 01:01:07,320 If you're interested in any of this, please send him an e-mail 1011 01:01:07,320 --> 01:01:09,880 and check out his podcast, Bald Scientist. 1012 01:01:09,880 --> 01:01:12,880 All One word. Check out his books Strange 1013 01:01:12,880 --> 01:01:17,640 Survivors and Drunken Flies and Stone Dolphins, which I really 1014 01:01:17,640 --> 01:01:20,960 recommend both of them I've I have I've only like a third of 1015 01:01:20,960 --> 01:01:23,280 the way through and they're not super long by the way, so 1016 01:01:23,520 --> 01:01:28,440 they're very palatable I think. I think you know on Audible, I 1017 01:01:28,440 --> 01:01:30,720 don't know how many pages there but on audible I think Strange 1018 01:01:30,720 --> 01:01:34,080 Survivors is only like 9 hours long which is actually not super 1019 01:01:34,080 --> 01:01:38,720 long you know to compare. So, yeah, I I really appreciate 1020 01:01:38,720 --> 01:01:42,200 you coming on and sharing your knowledge and your your years of 1021 01:01:42,200 --> 01:01:44,640 research and experience and you're curious too. 1022 01:01:44,640 --> 01:01:46,680 And I love that. I, I I love talking with 1023 01:01:46,680 --> 01:01:50,000 scientists that are having open dialogues about things and just 1024 01:01:50,000 --> 01:01:53,720 pondering like everybody else and not standing from, you know, 1025 01:01:53,720 --> 01:01:56,480 grandstanding. Oh, I know this and I know that. 1026 01:01:56,480 --> 01:02:00,680 So yeah, I really appreciate what you're doing and definitely 1027 01:02:00,680 --> 01:02:04,760 everybody needs to go check out your stuff and your podcast and 1028 01:02:04,800 --> 01:02:07,880 yeah, I look forward to seeing your guest too on your podcast. 1029 01:02:07,880 --> 01:02:13,560 Like I said, I, I, I, you know, I I just, you get lost 1030 01:02:13,560 --> 01:02:17,120 sometimes. But this was refreshing and I 1031 01:02:17,120 --> 01:02:21,680 love, I love these topics and I know it's nerdy, but here we 1032 01:02:21,680 --> 01:02:22,800 are, you know? Yeah. 1033 01:02:22,880 --> 01:02:24,920 Well, you're in good company, so I'll keep you. 1034 01:02:24,960 --> 01:02:28,880 Posted awesome, sounds good. And if you'd like to support 1035 01:02:28,880 --> 01:02:31,320 mine escape, just click the link tree link down below. 1036 01:02:31,320 --> 01:02:34,200 We've got merch stores if you want to leave us a nice review. 1037 01:02:34,560 --> 01:02:37,720 We do all of our shows live on YouTube and I actually even 1038 01:02:37,720 --> 01:02:41,760 stream it to X as well, or formerly known as Twitter if you 1039 01:02:41,760 --> 01:02:44,520 will. And you can check us out on 1040 01:02:44,520 --> 01:02:47,640 there. And all of our episodes go on to 1041 01:02:47,800 --> 01:02:49,600 Spotify. We have video episodes on 1042 01:02:49,600 --> 01:02:51,480 Spotify. Please check us out on there. 1043 01:02:51,960 --> 01:02:54,400 And yeah, we're on all podcast platforms. 1044 01:02:54,400 --> 01:02:59,240 So I really appreciate this Onay and I like where you're going 1045 01:02:59,240 --> 01:03:01,800 with all this and I look forward to your future research and 1046 01:03:01,800 --> 01:03:05,360 podcasts and everything and we'll try and get you back on 1047 01:03:05,360 --> 01:03:08,360 here soon. Thanks again anytime. 1048 01:03:08,640 --> 01:03:10,880 All right. Well, we love everybody. 1049 01:03:11,160 --> 01:03:14,680 Stay safe out there and we'll see you Episode 300. 1050 01:03:14,800 --> 01:03:17,720 And Maurice, I should mention and I could have brought this up 1051 01:03:17,720 --> 01:03:20,640 in the episode, but we'll talk about I wanted to save it. 1052 01:03:20,960 --> 01:03:24,360 Maurice just got back who's my Co host and cousin just got back 1053 01:03:24,360 --> 01:03:27,680 from the Galapagos Islands. So yeah. 1054 01:03:28,200 --> 01:03:30,440 So that should be a fascinating. You want to hear about animals? 1055 01:03:30,440 --> 01:03:32,440 We're going to be talking about some animals there too. 1056 01:03:32,440 --> 01:03:37,480 So but yeah, we love everybody. Stay safe out there and we'll 1057 01:03:37,480 --> 01:04:28,520 catch you next time. None.