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Welcome to Mind Escape. 
Are you ready? 

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Are you ready to escape your 
mind? 

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All right, folks, welcome back 
to Mind Escape. 

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I am your host, Mike, and Happy 
New Year. 

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I know we're almost halfway 
through the month and probably 

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some people don't like that, but
we haven't done an episode yet, 

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so I am feeling better. 
Thank you to all the people who 

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reached out, sent nice messages 
and everything. 

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I'm feeling a lot better. 
Completely changed a lot of 

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stuff in my life. 
Working out, taking supplements,

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doing some stuff. 
So I'm feeling good, so I'm 

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excited. 
That was a new intro, by the 

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way, Created that myself. 
The music, did all of the 

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instruments on logic and 
everything, and so I'm gonna 

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maybe make a full song at some 
point and put it up on our 

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Patreon. 
But yeah, I did that. 

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And then my wife contributed a 
little bit of vocal action in 

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there. 
Yeah. 

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And shout out to Maurice, who 
helped me figure out a few 

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things on Premiere Pro as well. 
So thank you, Maurice. 

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Maurice is out of town, but when
he comes back, we're going to 

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have him on as well. 
So that'll be, we got 300 coming

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up. 
It's a big one. 

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We've been doing this six years 
now. 

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Episode 300, it's quite the 
milestone. 

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So it's the longest creative 
project I've ever been a part 

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of, and I've been in bands my 
whole life. 

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So exciting stuff. 
But tonight we have special 

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guest in front of the show, PD 
Newman is back on and we're 

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gonna discuss his new book, 
Theergy. 

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Let me pull it up here. 
This thing's a badass hardcover 

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book. 
Theergy. 

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Theory and Practice. 
The Mysteries of the Ascent to 

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the Divine, where you know the 
bottom part. 

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He has Homeric Epics, the 
Chaldean Oracles, and the 

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Neoplatonic ritual. 
So when we've had PDN recently 

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with a lot of psychedelics, 
ancient psychedelic symbolism, 

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stuff, I feel like this is kind 
of a little bit of a, you know, 

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change up from what you normally
do. 

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But I really enjoyed it. 
I learned a lot, even though I 

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do know a decent amount about 
the topic. 

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But well, first of all, welcome 
back on the show dude. 

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How are you? 
I'm good. 

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Thank you, Thank you. 
And that intro is fantastic. 

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Oh, thanks, man. 
Yeah, put a little bit of time 

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into it and maybe it'll keep 
evolving too. 

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We'll see. 
But let me know what you think. 

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I mean, we had the same old 
intro for a while, so if you 

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like the new intro, you know, 
give a nice nice review or send 

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us a message. 
And if now we've still got the 

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old one of people who really 
don't like it, so, so let's talk

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about this new book. 
I did know some about Theergy 

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just from going back four or 
five years ago. 

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I went through all the pre 
Socratics and Platonic dialogues

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a ton and stuff like that. 
What got you into the topic and 

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why don't you kind of explain 
what it is? 

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Because people might have heard 
the word before, but I I don't 

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think a lot of people actually 
know what Theo G is. 

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Sure. 
In in one regard, I think it is 

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like you said kind of a 
departure from what I normally 

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research. 
But in an in another sense it's 

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really not. 
Because the kind of the 

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underlying theme of all of my 
work has been this notion of 

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transcendence, you know of of 
transcendence of of self and 

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breaking out of limitations of 
self. 

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And I think this fits right in 
with that in terms of 

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psychedelic and just or if 
entheogenic right. 

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Entheogenic specifically refers 
to the the generation of the 

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divine within oneself. 
And just that alone is very 

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similar to the meaning of of 
theology. 

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It means to work with the gods. 
And this work is an an internal 

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work, even though it's 
ritualized and there is some 

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import given to the manipulation
of material things as symbols 

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that transcend their basic 
stations. 

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So they're similar. 
But you're right, it is. 

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It is different from anything 
I've done in the past because 

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it's not really about 
psychedelics, but it is very 

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psychedelic, the content of it 
and what it's actually 

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describing theurgy itself, like 
I said, it means to work with 

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the gods or the work of the 
gods. 

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It's a combination of two Greek 
words, one meeting meaning 

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deities or deity and the other 
meaning work. 

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So you could spin it a number of
ways, but those are the basic 

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concepts in that conjunctive 
word and it first the the term 

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itself first appears in the 2nd 
century with this father son 

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ritual team that are known as 
the Giuliani because they're 

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both their names are Julian. 
Not to be confused with Emperor 

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Julian who was also a theologist
and existed around the same time

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but different different 
Julian's. 

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And what it basically consists 
of is their contacting certain 

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deities, in this case largely 
Apollo and Hecate, and the 

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deities speaking through them in
this oracular form and these 

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divine utterances and so. 
A lot. 

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A lot like the way. 
John D and Edward Kelly would 

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work where you'd have John D 
doing the these invocations to 

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the deities or to the angels in 
his case and and Edward Kelly 

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being the seer, the one who 
could actually see and hear 

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them. 
It it worked a lot like that 

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with this call and response kind
of technique. 

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And the predominant philosophy 
of the day was, of course Plato.

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And Plato is not really read in 
this way much these days, but 

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his metaphysical teachings are 
very heady, very kind of, for 

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lack of a better word, 
psychedelic. 

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And they. 
Use were we talking like Theory 

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of forms or. 
The well, the that's the basics 

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of it that. 
The. 

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That there's there's the 
sensible reality which is the 

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world of the senses and objects 
that we can perceive with our 

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senses and touch them and and 
but behind that is this ultimate

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reality that is more real than 
this one. 

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And in that reality of course 
the like you said the forms or 

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the ideas these it's been 
interpreted as number for neo 

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Pythagoreans ratio. 
But these forms that inform the 

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way everything happens here, you
could almost think about it like

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a blueprint for reality. 
And what the theorists are 

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actively trying to do is explore
this, this blueprint and Plato 

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and his Phaedrus dialogue, which
is where we get the famous Soul 

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Chariot idea that the the soul 
has this vehicle that can that 

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can carry it to the station of 
the gods, where one can not only

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just directly perceive but 
participate in these divine 

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actions. 
In the realm of the gods, which 

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is in pre Socratic thinking, 
that's not how things worked. 

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You know you you have this 
concept of going into the 

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underworld and facing divinities
and things. 

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But prior to Plato there really 
wasn't any talk about man going 

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up Mount Olympus that that was 
for the gods and and it it's 

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normal for a post Christian 
world to think about. 

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Oh well you know in the in the 
Christian model man dies and he 

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can go to heaven or sometimes 
have visions of heaven as a as a

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living person. 
But those ideas in Christianity 

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were largely influenced by this.
Christianity is thoroughly 

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Platonic in a number of 
different ways, but Plato 

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introduced this idea that that 
man could ascend and be at one 

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with the gods and have this 
experience of the divine. 

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Yeah, so basically Theurgy is 
human beings trying to interact 

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with the gods in their favor. 
What I found interesting though,

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so one of the we've got some 
main players, we've got 

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Platinus, we've got Porphyry, 
we've got Prokhilis, we've got 

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Iamblichus. 
So supposedly it would came 

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first was Platinus, then 
Porphyry was a student and then 

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Iambicus was his Porphyry 
student right? 

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Is that how that goes? 
His? 

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Successor And then following on,
we have Proclus and then some 

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less heavy hitters after that. 
Damascus, Olympiodorus, Hermias.

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But those are the main guys. 
After Plato was gone, the 

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Academy had kind of been taken 
over by Stoics and skeptics that

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weren't really doing what Plato 
was doing. 

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And when Platinus enters the 
picture, he sees himself as 

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correcting this, this mistake 
that's happened in the Academy. 

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And along with that, he really 
introduces this idea that is 

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very similar to Eastern 
modalities and Eastern 

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philosophies that that you can 
contact and become one with God 

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experientially that you and 
this, this ties right in with 

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what we talked. 
About with ego. 

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Death. 
You know, lots of new Age folks 

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think about ego death in a very 
kind of immature and not 

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philosophical way. 
The ego doesn't die. 

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If it did, we'd have no 
interface with the world. 

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We we would have no point of 
reference. 

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Yeah, you need some ego. 
You're never gonna get anything 

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done. 
It's like, you know, it's kind 

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of right what you feed your ego,
right? 

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You know, if you've got good 
feedback and you're 

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introspective, I think you're 
good. 

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You know, kind of a thing. 
Yeah, that's exactly right. 

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And and we do have experiences 
of ego death, especially in 

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meditation and and psychedelics 
and magical ritual, but it's not

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a death, it's a temporary 
abeyance. 

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It's kind of in psychedelic 
language. 

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This. 
Is discussed as being the 

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experience of the DMN, the 
default mode network. 

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That is kind of the locus of the
brain where the experience of 

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the self takes place. 
When you're experiencing what we

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call ego death that goes silent,
it's usually full of this, all 

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of this activity, this static. 
But once that static goes away, 

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usually after congesting A 
tryptamine or or LSD that will, 

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on brain scans go silent. 
And that's the moment at which 

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the individual reports later of 
having experienced what we call 

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ego death. 
But Platinus was doing this 

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through purely contemplative 
practices, and there's a big 

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kind of argument about whether 
or not Platinus was totally 

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against ritual and only espoused
an internal contemplative 

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process. 
But I don't think that's the 

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case. 
There's plenty of plenty of ways

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to approach Platanus that's 
clear that he wasn't completely 

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opposed to ritual, and moreover,
internal contemplative processes

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can be ritualistic. 
A good example is in Vajra 

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Vajrayana Buddhism. 
Many of these rituals involve 

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ritual implements that are in 
the mind that you, you're 

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imagining doing it, going 
through these motions. 

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Instead of sitting in a temple 
and manipulating adores, for 

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example, they would do this 
internally. 

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And that makes it no less 
ritualistic just because it's 

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happening inside and the mere 
act of of sitting silently, you 

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know, this is, this is 
ritualistic in itself. 

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But after Plotinus, it really 
takes a heavy ritual turn. 

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And this happens with the 
introduction of the Chaldean 

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oracles. 
And we really learn about that 

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from Plotinus's student 
Porphyry. 

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He wrote a book that's now save 
a few fragments, is lost. 

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It's about the philosophy of 
oracles behind producing 

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oracles. 
And many of the oracles he dealt

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with in this text were from the 
Chaldean oracles, from these 

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two, these Giuliani and and it 
especially focuses on rituals. 

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Specifically there's this death 
ritual that they would do where 

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the the personal station would 
be transcended and they would 

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have this experience of again, 
you know, not just leaving the 

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body but of leaving time, 
getting outside of time and 

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space. 
And you know, concepts that are 

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really familiar to someone who 
meditates or does psychedelics 

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and or does certain forms of 
ceremonial magic. 

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But beyond that it's really hard
concepts to to discuss and wrap 

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your head around but that's what
they were doing. 

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And and Porphyry he he's the one
who really broke down the theory

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behind theory and the theory is 
this cosmological picture that 

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he paints of the soul that falls
from divinity, enters a body and

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then has to climb back up these 
levels of the heavens. 

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It falls through like it's 
climbing a ladder and and that 

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image still exists in a lot of 
mystery schools and masonry. 

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For example, there's the ladder 
with 7 rungs, and each of those 

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wrongs represents a level of the
heavens. 

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And there's seven because they 
refer to the seven visible 

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planets, the seven planets 
visible to the ancients. 

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And as the soul descends through
each of these levels, it 

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acquires a layer of pneuma of of
this airy kind of mist. 

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Fiery, airy mist. 
You can think of it as that 

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00:16:35,440 --> 00:16:39,920
weighs the soul down. 
So you can if you're familiar 

228
00:16:39,920 --> 00:16:45,520
with the myth of Ishtar Inanna, 
who descends into Kerr, the 

229
00:16:45,560 --> 00:16:48,960
Mesopotamian underworld. 
And she does this by walking 

230
00:16:48,960 --> 00:16:53,160
under 7 arches and at each arch 
she has to take off an article 

231
00:16:53,160 --> 00:16:56,440
of clothing until she gets all 
the way at the bottom and she's 

232
00:16:56,440 --> 00:16:58,720
completely nude. 
So it's like the. 

233
00:16:58,720 --> 00:17:03,000
Reverse of this, for 
incarnation, you're acquiring a 

234
00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:06,960
layer and another layer and 
another layer until you're heavy

235
00:17:06,960 --> 00:17:09,079
enough to stay down here in a 
body. 

236
00:17:09,599 --> 00:17:13,720
And these planetary layers, they
come with the virtues and the 

237
00:17:13,720 --> 00:17:16,640
vices associated with these. 
And this is this. 

238
00:17:16,640 --> 00:17:19,640
This thinking is the origin of 
the seven deadly sins, for 

239
00:17:19,640 --> 00:17:23,440
example, Those seven deadly sins
or those seven vices that come 

240
00:17:23,440 --> 00:17:26,400
from each of those planets. 
There are also seven virtues 

241
00:17:26,880 --> 00:17:31,960
that come with them. 
But once you have them, once 

242
00:17:31,960 --> 00:17:35,600
you've acquired them, the only 
way to get back up there without

243
00:17:35,760 --> 00:17:39,640
physically dying is by casting 
them off 1 by 1. 

244
00:17:39,640 --> 00:17:43,360
And this idea also shows up in 
the Corpus Hermeticum, for 

245
00:17:43,360 --> 00:17:49,240
example, in the Divine 
Poymentres, where each planetary

246
00:17:49,240 --> 00:17:52,360
vice and virtue are cast off, 
and the soul gets lighter and 

247
00:17:52,360 --> 00:17:56,280
lighter until it can ascend. 
And what the these vices and 

248
00:17:56,280 --> 00:17:58,520
virtues? 
You'd think virtues are a good 

249
00:17:58,520 --> 00:18:00,360
thing. 
The more virtues would make you 

250
00:18:00,400 --> 00:18:05,320
lighter. 
But no, they both of them tie us

251
00:18:05,320 --> 00:18:10,640
to sensible reality. 
They they tie us into the good 

252
00:18:10,640 --> 00:18:15,160
and the bad are equally 
distracting in this context. 

253
00:18:17,800 --> 00:18:24,080
So a lot of these guys have 
different thoughts though, even 

254
00:18:24,080 --> 00:18:29,440
though they all were teachers 
and students, I think Was it 

255
00:18:29,440 --> 00:18:34,560
Platinus and Proculus? 
Maybe they both believed in the 

256
00:18:34,560 --> 00:18:39,360
monad or the one, the intellect 
or noose and the solar psyche. 

257
00:18:42,360 --> 00:18:50,360
And then I Is it with The Who 
was it? 

258
00:18:50,360 --> 00:18:54,120
I think it was maybe porphyry 
that kind of dismissed the 

259
00:18:54,120 --> 00:18:56,560
Egyptian mysteries, like the 
ritual. 

260
00:18:57,040 --> 00:18:58,880
Maybe I'm getting that wrong. 
But. 

261
00:19:00,920 --> 00:19:02,440
The. 
Well, that might not have even 

262
00:19:02,440 --> 00:19:04,760
been in your book, by the way. 
That might have been something I

263
00:19:04,760 --> 00:19:05,800
saw somewhere else. 
The. 

264
00:19:06,520 --> 00:19:10,280
Well, it is true that that there
was this dismissal of ritual, 

265
00:19:10,640 --> 00:19:15,080
but yeah, that's the earlier 
Platonian and and and again, 

266
00:19:15,080 --> 00:19:16,520
it's not 100%. 
Correct. 

267
00:19:16,520 --> 00:19:17,080
Yeah. 
OK. 

268
00:19:17,080 --> 00:19:21,880
So that's it was, Yeah, it was. 
Putinus and Porphyry were like 

269
00:19:21,880 --> 00:19:24,240
against like animal sacrifice 
and like. 

270
00:19:24,360 --> 00:19:26,320
Oh, definitely, yeah. 
Stuff like that. 

271
00:19:26,360 --> 00:19:29,840
That's what it was. 
Now in the animal sacrifice, 

272
00:19:30,720 --> 00:19:35,640
animal sacrifice was the name of
the game and and public religion

273
00:19:35,640 --> 00:19:39,680
in both Greece and in ancient 
Judaica. 

274
00:19:40,200 --> 00:19:44,720
You know the the the sacrifice 
was necessary and it was true in

275
00:19:44,720 --> 00:19:48,120
Egypt also. 
But a lot of people have 

276
00:19:48,120 --> 00:19:51,920
difficulty, especially now, with
animal rights and things, 

277
00:19:51,960 --> 00:19:55,520
discussing that kind of thing 
and without discussing it. 

278
00:19:55,640 --> 00:19:57,040
It's really hard to wrap your 
head. 

279
00:19:57,040 --> 00:20:01,920
Around it in the way they were 
thinking, but their cosmos was 

280
00:20:02,160 --> 00:20:04,240
divine. 
So even though we have the 

281
00:20:04,240 --> 00:20:07,720
sensible and the intelligible in
Plato, we've got the material 

282
00:20:07,720 --> 00:20:09,360
world and we've got the 
intellectual. 

283
00:20:09,360 --> 00:20:15,480
World of ideas. 
Everything here only exists here

284
00:20:15,760 --> 00:20:19,200
because it originates over 
there. 

285
00:20:19,520 --> 00:20:23,000
So in the final analysis for 
them, everything is divine. 

286
00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:26,560
Everywhere you look around, 
every tree you see, every animal

287
00:20:26,560 --> 00:20:31,360
you see is a kind of a fractal 
of a God. 

288
00:20:31,760 --> 00:20:35,760
And a lot of people are familiar
with the Egyptian idea that the 

289
00:20:35,760 --> 00:20:40,960
God Thoth or Tahuti, he's 
represented often by an Ibis 

290
00:20:41,560 --> 00:20:46,200
Ibis bird. 
And in modern magical orders, 

291
00:20:46,200 --> 00:20:50,480
like for example, the Hermetic 
Order of the Golden Dawn, you're

292
00:20:50,480 --> 00:20:54,280
taught that every Kingdom of 
nature, everything in it, 

293
00:20:54,280 --> 00:20:58,480
corresponds to a certain God. 
But they use it more as a 

294
00:20:58,480 --> 00:21:02,600
mnemonic, A symbolic mnemonic. 
So if they saw an Ibis they 

295
00:21:02,600 --> 00:21:07,000
would know to think Thoth like 
it jogs the memory kind of and 

296
00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:12,720
reminds you of Thoth. 
But for the earlier way of 

297
00:21:12,720 --> 00:21:17,960
looking at this was more that 
that Ibis is Thoth and and 

298
00:21:17,960 --> 00:21:21,840
Prokhilis talks about this when 
he's using the sun as an 

299
00:21:21,840 --> 00:21:25,320
example. 
The sun God isn't the sun 

300
00:21:25,320 --> 00:21:30,880
itself, but the sun is under the
if we think about it as a chain,

301
00:21:31,440 --> 00:21:34,800
the sun would be a pendant below
the God of the sun and then 

302
00:21:34,800 --> 00:21:38,040
below the planet the star would 
be. 

303
00:21:40,800 --> 00:21:44,920
If we wind up the kingdoms as 
animals, plants, metals, 

304
00:21:44,920 --> 00:21:49,840
minerals, well in the animal 
Kingdom the rooster which crows 

305
00:21:49,840 --> 00:21:53,560
with the stations of the sun 
would be considered solar, would

306
00:21:53,560 --> 00:21:57,520
be considered an avatar of 
Apollo or Helios and so would 

307
00:21:57,640 --> 00:21:59,920
the lion. 
Because of his mane he looks 

308
00:21:59,920 --> 00:22:04,640
like the sun and the they only 
sign the sun rules as Leo for 

309
00:22:04,640 --> 00:22:07,520
instance, which is the lion. 
But in the plant Kingdom it 

310
00:22:07,520 --> 00:22:13,320
would be heliotrope which is 
sacred to the sun, sunflower and

311
00:22:13,320 --> 00:22:16,200
the metal Kingdom. 
It would be the the metal gold 

312
00:22:16,200 --> 00:22:19,160
each and this continued into 
alchemy. 

313
00:22:19,160 --> 00:22:23,840
Each planet has its own metal, 
but they don't correspond to it 

314
00:22:23,840 --> 00:22:30,160
in the way they think of it. 
It is it in in in in a lesser 

315
00:22:31,640 --> 00:22:36,240
kind of not so loud tempered 
form. 

316
00:22:36,680 --> 00:22:41,560
So they're when they sacrifice 
an animal that the animal that 

317
00:22:41,560 --> 00:22:47,800
they are sacrificing is one that
is that God and and we get that 

318
00:22:47,800 --> 00:22:52,080
this this transfers into 
Christianity even when you know 

319
00:22:52,080 --> 00:22:56,960
that with Christ being 
sacrificed and you consume his 

320
00:22:56,960 --> 00:23:01,920
body and his blood and what what
is called theophagia God eating 

321
00:23:02,560 --> 00:23:08,400
and this is true also in Greek 
religion when they eat the when 

322
00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:12,600
they sacrifice the animal it's 
not just burned to a crisp it's 

323
00:23:12,600 --> 00:23:18,600
divvied up and certain portions 
go to certain types of people 

324
00:23:18,960 --> 00:23:22,000
but it has to be eaten without 
the people eating it there's no 

325
00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:25,560
communing with the God. 
So the God is literally killed 

326
00:23:25,560 --> 00:23:30,960
and eaten for his own honor. 
And and you know, that's a kind 

327
00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:35,040
of a far out notion in itself, 
but that's what they're doing 

328
00:23:35,040 --> 00:23:40,240
is, is participating in the God 
by taking him into their body, 

329
00:23:40,480 --> 00:23:44,080
which in turn shows them that 
they are inside of his body, 

330
00:23:44,080 --> 00:23:48,760
that we're all inside the God 
and that that's something that 

331
00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:52,640
yarmulkes talks about. 
That man's soul is contained in 

332
00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:57,480
his body, but for a God, his 
body is contained in his soul. 

333
00:23:58,200 --> 00:24:01,440
And in a sense we would be his 
body. 

334
00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:04,840
And this translates again in 
the, you know, man made in God's

335
00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:10,120
image and the Jewish teachings. 
So. 

336
00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:18,800
Internal logic to it, you know. 
So I Amblicas, he thinks that 

337
00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:22,160
you can't, you can't get the 
gods to do something, like 

338
00:24:22,160 --> 00:24:26,360
you're not gonna do something 
that's gonna get the gods to do 

339
00:24:26,360 --> 00:24:28,760
what you wanna do. 
It's almost like you have to do 

340
00:24:28,760 --> 00:24:32,840
something and then they realize 
it themselves or something. 

341
00:24:32,840 --> 00:24:37,040
Like can you explain that? 
Divine persuasion. 

342
00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:40,000
It's this persuasive thing with 
him. 

343
00:24:40,120 --> 00:24:42,720
Yeah, I think that's like the 
most complicated aspect of this 

344
00:24:42,720 --> 00:24:45,480
whole thing. 
Can you like kind of unpack that

345
00:24:45,480 --> 00:24:49,800
aspect of it? 
Prior to that, if you look at, 

346
00:24:49,800 --> 00:24:54,600
for instance, the rituals in the
Greek magical Papyri, which is a

347
00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:57,520
kind of a recipe book for all 
these different magical 

348
00:24:57,520 --> 00:25:02,440
operations, in a lot of cases, 
the God is being compelled by 

349
00:25:02,440 --> 00:25:06,360
the priest or the magician to do
these things, often under 

350
00:25:06,360 --> 00:25:10,560
threats and yombuchas is like 
that. 

351
00:25:10,720 --> 00:25:13,960
Obviously that's absurd. 
You you can't make the God do 

352
00:25:13,960 --> 00:25:16,280
something. 
You can't threaten a God. 

353
00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:20,280
You know that even if you could 
go through with it, you couldn't

354
00:25:20,280 --> 00:25:24,480
even go through with it, but it 
it it complicates matters 

355
00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:31,720
because in Neoplatonism they 
they teach that the God teaches 

356
00:25:31,840 --> 00:25:38,480
their mode of invocation. 
So in their mind, in a state of 

357
00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:43,160
trance, the deity would 
communicate to you how they want

358
00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:46,480
to be invoked. 
And these communications can 

359
00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:51,720
sometimes include compulsions. 
But they told you to. 

360
00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:55,440
So long as they told you to, 
then you can compel the God. 

361
00:25:56,200 --> 00:26:02,120
But beyond that, that the divine
divine persuasion is central to 

362
00:26:02,120 --> 00:26:05,120
what Yarmulkes said, and it 
shows up in Porphyry also. 

363
00:26:05,120 --> 00:26:08,360
And there's a section in his 
philosophy of oracles where 

364
00:26:08,360 --> 00:26:13,480
you're kind of like in 
Parmenides, when Parmenides 

365
00:26:13,480 --> 00:26:20,240
descends into the underworld and
he needs the the guard, the 

366
00:26:20,320 --> 00:26:23,120
goddess that's standing there 
guarding the gates to Hades to 

367
00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:27,400
open the doors of Hades for him,
and they persuade her, they 

368
00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:31,720
charm her, and finally convince 
her to do it. 

369
00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:36,280
They don't compel her. 
But that persuasion shows up 

370
00:26:36,360 --> 00:26:38,600
even as early as the Pre 
Socratics. 

371
00:26:39,120 --> 00:26:43,120
Kind of. 
Again, charming them and even 

372
00:26:43,120 --> 00:26:48,280
tricking them if you can. 
And tricking them, compelling 

373
00:26:48,280 --> 00:26:52,240
them, also carries with it an 
element of daring. 

374
00:26:52,520 --> 00:26:55,160
You know that you're courageous 
enough to, even though you 

375
00:26:55,160 --> 00:26:58,840
couldn't trick God, you can try 
to trick them, and it's almost 

376
00:26:59,120 --> 00:27:02,840
you could think about it as a 
parent whose child we're trying 

377
00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:06,240
to trick them, and you see 
immediately what they're doing. 

378
00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:09,000
But it's cute a little bit, so 
you let them do it. 

379
00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:14,280
You know, kind of like that. 
They saw that as. 

380
00:27:15,120 --> 00:27:20,320
A better way of going about it 
rather than just saying you 

381
00:27:20,320 --> 00:27:22,400
don't, you don't do anything 
with the gods. 

382
00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:24,320
You don't invoke them. 
They invoke you. 

383
00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:26,200
You know they have all the 
power. 

384
00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:31,120
But again and they're thinking 
if you're invoking the God, 

385
00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:37,360
that's the God making you invoke
them in a way you know, we have 

386
00:27:37,360 --> 00:27:41,080
no power. 
We're just lowly physical beings

387
00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:45,400
and and all of our drives and 
motivations are the result of 

388
00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:49,240
the interplay of these divine 
forces in our world. 

389
00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:55,200
So where we might think we have 
free will to do a thing, our 

390
00:27:55,920 --> 00:28:01,080
feeling of free will, of acting 
on the impetus to invoke a God 

391
00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:06,560
could just as much be said to be
that God's participation in our 

392
00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:08,320
world through. 
Us. 

393
00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:19,920
Yeah. 
Oh, so Iambicus was a 

394
00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:25,280
philosopher, Neoplaton, 
Neoplatonic philosopher from 

395
00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:30,360
what's now, I think, Syria. 
And he was also like a 

396
00:28:30,360 --> 00:28:33,640
Pythagorean biographer, if you 
will. 

397
00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:37,720
He was fascinated with 
Pythagoras and held a lot of the

398
00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:40,440
similar philosophies and stuff 
like that. 

399
00:28:43,360 --> 00:28:45,920
Who do you think is the most 
cause like? 

400
00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:49,760
From what it seems like, 
Iambicus made it like this like 

401
00:28:49,760 --> 00:28:54,440
complex thing where he's got 
like the monad at the top and it

402
00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:56,400
works its way. 
Like I said, the intellect and 

403
00:28:56,400 --> 00:29:01,680
then the soul and all that, but 
seemed like his is more complex 

404
00:29:01,680 --> 00:29:04,720
than like Platinus's, which 
would make sense. 

405
00:29:04,720 --> 00:29:06,680
I mean, it's later on, but you 
know. 

406
00:29:07,520 --> 00:29:08,280
Yeah. 
He. 

407
00:29:08,600 --> 00:29:09,760
He. 
Brings in. 

408
00:29:11,080 --> 00:29:11,640
He. 
He. 

409
00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:16,680
His argument is that all true 
priests are theologists, and 

410
00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:21,040
that all of these priestly acts 
basically amount to theurgic 

411
00:29:21,040 --> 00:29:25,880
acts, and he's the one who 
brings in, like you said, for 

412
00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:30,680
Platinus it's it's simple. 
You have the three hypostasis, 

413
00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:34,600
which are the monad, the one. 
Who would be the Father God at 

414
00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:39,400
the top Below that you have. 
The noose or the intellect or or

415
00:29:39,400 --> 00:29:45,280
mind, almost in the kind of the 
Buddhist sense of mind in the 

416
00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:48,320
second station. 
That's what becomes known as the

417
00:29:48,320 --> 00:29:52,880
demiurge in Plato and and. 
But keep in mind they're all one

418
00:29:52,880 --> 00:29:54,680
thing. 
It's like this is the source of 

419
00:29:54,680 --> 00:30:00,720
the Christian Holy Trinity with 
three persons but one entity, 

420
00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:06,400
one being, and then under. 
Mind you have Suke or Soul, 

421
00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:10,360
which is the world soul and and 
the Neoplatonist this becomes 

422
00:30:10,360 --> 00:30:17,240
Hecate and they each also 
represent levels of the heavens.

423
00:30:17,240 --> 00:30:21,520
So all of those seven planetary 
heavens, That's the realm of 

424
00:30:21,520 --> 00:30:28,160
Hecate of Suke and beyond that? 
The realm of the fixed stars. 

425
00:30:28,440 --> 00:30:32,800
That's the noose with all each 
star being an idea or a form in 

426
00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:36,280
the mind of God. 
And then beyond that is the, you

427
00:30:37,040 --> 00:30:40,000
know what Aristotle called the 
the prime Mover, the unmoved 

428
00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:45,680
mover, the the One, the Father. 
And you can see why Suke would 

429
00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:51,280
become Spirit, Holy Spirit and 
the Holy in the Christian model.

430
00:30:52,600 --> 00:30:56,440
So yeah, his is very simple. 
His is simply transcending the 

431
00:30:56,440 --> 00:31:04,560
body and participating in each 
of these hypostasis sequentially

432
00:31:04,600 --> 00:31:09,200
until you unite with the One. 
But for yarmulkes, He he brings 

433
00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:12,120
in this idea and it doesn't 
start with him. 

434
00:31:12,120 --> 00:31:15,120
It's present in the middle. 
Plate in this, but he's the one 

435
00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:17,320
who really kind of lays it all 
out into. 

436
00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:21,560
A philosophy. 
A big grand, workable 

437
00:31:21,560 --> 00:31:24,680
philosophy. 
Remember we said that all of the

438
00:31:24,680 --> 00:31:30,360
things here are the gods and and
kind of fractal form? 

439
00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:35,680
Well, he refers to these as 
Sunta Mata, which means tokens 

440
00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:39,800
or signatures. 
In alchemy, they talk about the 

441
00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:41,880
signatures. 
A sunflower carries the 

442
00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:44,600
signature of the sun, which is 
why we call it a sunflower 

443
00:31:44,600 --> 00:31:48,800
anyway. 
Or sumbola, which are symbols in

444
00:31:48,800 --> 00:31:55,760
the sumbola tend to be words, 
phrases, prayers, utterances by 

445
00:31:55,760 --> 00:31:58,920
the gods and Homer or Hesiod, 
things like that. 

446
00:31:59,240 --> 00:32:04,120
Those become sumbola, and in the
Christian model, you have 

447
00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:11,120
Semaeon, which is a sign, but 
they're all basically this idea 

448
00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:15,240
of participating in that 
divinity. 

449
00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:19,560
Through its emanations, through 
its tokens, its symbols and its 

450
00:32:19,560 --> 00:32:24,800
signs. 
And that's basically what what 

451
00:32:24,800 --> 00:32:29,360
theurgic ritual. 
Amounts to is manipulating those

452
00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:37,560
objects, and the reason they do 
this is because in, for example,

453
00:32:37,560 --> 00:32:40,360
in the Chaldean Oracles, it 
talks about how the Father, the 

454
00:32:40,360 --> 00:32:46,560
One, has sown these Suntemata 
into the cosmos and into our own

455
00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:48,800
souls, but we're not aware of 
that. 

456
00:32:48,800 --> 00:32:53,120
We're asleep to the capacities 
of our souls because we're so 

457
00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:58,760
into our bodily drives. 
And Plato had this concept 

458
00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:03,760
called an amnesis, which means 
to not forget to remember to 

459
00:33:04,160 --> 00:33:07,760
specifically to remember your 
divinity, the divine origins of 

460
00:33:07,760 --> 00:33:12,160
your soul. 
So by properly engaging these 

461
00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:19,080
Suntemata and sumbola, you can 
awaken the corresponding token 

462
00:33:19,440 --> 00:33:24,600
in your. 
Soul it's a it's a strange idea 

463
00:33:24,600 --> 00:33:27,400
but with the more you kind of 
sit with it the more it makes 

464
00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:31,640
sense and that that anemonesis 
again I I keep bringing this 

465
00:33:31,640 --> 00:33:34,280
back to Christianity because I 
think that's going to be more 

466
00:33:34,280 --> 00:33:37,240
familiar. 
To your viewers, even if they're

467
00:33:37,240 --> 00:33:39,920
not Christians, because we're 
surrounded by it. 

468
00:33:40,400 --> 00:33:44,240
But when when Christ is 
performing the Last Supper, for 

469
00:33:44,240 --> 00:33:49,560
instance, and he says this, do 
in remembrance of me well. 

470
00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:52,480
The. 
Word he uses for remembrance is 

471
00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:58,240
a conjugation of anemonesis. 
So he's literally saying by 

472
00:33:58,240 --> 00:34:03,640
consuming these Suntemata, the 
symbola, the bread and the wine 

473
00:34:04,800 --> 00:34:09,639
you it will cause you to have a 
divine remembrance of your own 

474
00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:15,480
origins, your own divine 
origins, and anybody at the time

475
00:34:16,080 --> 00:34:21,880
who was remotely educated. 
Would have immediately thought, 

476
00:34:21,920 --> 00:34:25,800
oh, he's talking about Plato, 
you know, by by using a word so 

477
00:34:25,800 --> 00:34:28,600
platonic. 
Anybody hearing it would have 

478
00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:32,320
thought, yeah, that he's, he's 
talking about what Plato was 

479
00:34:32,320 --> 00:34:36,760
talking about, Which in a sense 
I call it meta language because.

480
00:34:36,760 --> 00:34:41,520
By using one word. 
So suggestive of Plato, you 

481
00:34:41,520 --> 00:34:44,520
basically evoke all of Plato and
it. 

482
00:34:44,679 --> 00:34:46,880
Becomes glaringly obvious. 
How? 

483
00:34:47,600 --> 00:34:51,719
Christianity is standing on 
Plato's shoulders with a lot of,

484
00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:54,639
you know, tweaks and and rules 
broken. 

485
00:34:55,199 --> 00:35:01,080
But that's what the the purpose 
is to awaken those tokens sown 

486
00:35:01,080 --> 00:35:07,760
in our own souls, which in in 
essence means realizing that we 

487
00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:12,160
are the gods kind of 
masquerading as puppets down 

488
00:35:12,160 --> 00:35:15,840
here and. 
I think that's too is a very 

489
00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:20,840
psychedelic revelation. 
You know, anybody who's taken 

490
00:35:20,840 --> 00:35:27,840
enough LSD that they become God 
in a sense where you start to 

491
00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:32,160
see the world through your own 
with your own illusion, your own

492
00:35:32,160 --> 00:35:36,120
clouds out of the way, and 
everybody does become sort of 

493
00:35:37,680 --> 00:35:42,480
sort of puppet and actor that 
you've been you you you get the 

494
00:35:42,480 --> 00:35:45,680
real sense on a lot of 
psychedelic experiences that 

495
00:35:45,920 --> 00:35:47,680
you've you're not working them 
right now. 

496
00:35:47,680 --> 00:35:50,960
You've always worked them, you 
know, and I don't mean take 

497
00:35:50,960 --> 00:35:54,560
advantage of them. 
I mean everyone is you 

498
00:35:55,120 --> 00:36:02,040
interacting with itself. 
And if we're going to really 

499
00:36:02,040 --> 00:36:08,800
talk about divinity at all and 
what that means to to be with 

500
00:36:08,800 --> 00:36:11,840
the divine, that I think that's 
really the only way to 

501
00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:13,960
understand it. 
Because when we say the 

502
00:36:13,960 --> 00:36:17,480
theorist, for the theorist the 
goal is to unite with the gods 

503
00:36:17,480 --> 00:36:21,280
or with a God, well, that 
doesn't mean to hug them. 

504
00:36:21,800 --> 00:36:23,760
Or to have. 
Sexual intercourse with them. 

505
00:36:23,760 --> 00:36:26,840
Even though these are great 
metaphors, but they're literally

506
00:36:26,840 --> 00:36:31,440
saying to become one with them. 
And that's not a two headed 

507
00:36:31,440 --> 00:36:33,960
monster with a man's head and a 
God's head. 

508
00:36:34,440 --> 00:36:39,560
It's to completely shed the 
illusion of being an individual 

509
00:36:39,560 --> 00:36:43,240
person. 
And remember that you are the 

510
00:36:43,240 --> 00:36:49,720
one thing behind all things that
the game you played before this 

511
00:36:50,960 --> 00:36:56,080
happened and the experience was 
just that something that you did

512
00:36:57,560 --> 00:37:00,600
that feels almost like a 
distraction, you know? 

513
00:37:01,640 --> 00:37:05,680
You hear people who have had. 
Near death experiences, you know

514
00:37:05,680 --> 00:37:08,400
talk about that, how how they 
look back and they see. 

515
00:37:09,440 --> 00:37:10,120
The. 
Body. 

516
00:37:10,120 --> 00:37:14,600
They previously carried around 
with them as almost like a a 

517
00:37:14,600 --> 00:37:18,600
suit they've taken off and you 
know and and the personality 

518
00:37:18,600 --> 00:37:24,120
attached to it is no longer so 
important for them there. 

519
00:37:24,120 --> 00:37:27,840
It's not such a. 
How would you how would you 

520
00:37:27,960 --> 00:37:31,120
distinguish those? 
I I always think about this like

521
00:37:32,200 --> 00:37:35,160
if conscious, if your 
consciousness were to survive, 

522
00:37:35,480 --> 00:37:43,480
OK, And you know, you're saying 
that the personality or whatever

523
00:37:43,480 --> 00:37:46,960
wouldn't be attached, but like, 
what does that even mean? 

524
00:37:46,960 --> 00:37:49,360
How are you still? 
Because I feel like part of who 

525
00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:53,440
we are are the collections of 
all the things that we've done 

526
00:37:53,440 --> 00:37:57,920
and learned, right? 
So, like if you take away like, 

527
00:37:57,920 --> 00:38:00,400
what's left, I guess would be my
question. 

528
00:38:00,400 --> 00:38:02,720
Just pure consciousness. 
And if that's the case, what 

529
00:38:02,720 --> 00:38:04,200
what? 
What's What's going on? 

530
00:38:04,200 --> 00:38:06,080
Like, what's the next step? 
What's the point? 

531
00:38:06,800 --> 00:38:09,520
Yeah, it's problematic. 
And it brings in, it's 

532
00:38:09,520 --> 00:38:13,080
paradoxical in the extreme and 
it brings in the question of, 

533
00:38:13,800 --> 00:38:17,800
you know, I I think anybody who 
purports to know what happens 

534
00:38:17,800 --> 00:38:20,840
when you die or what happened 
before you were incarnated in 

535
00:38:20,840 --> 00:38:25,400
this life has has settled on 
something. 

536
00:38:25,400 --> 00:38:28,160
They've settled on an answer, 
but we don't. 

537
00:38:28,160 --> 00:38:30,760
We don't know. 
And I'm not saying there aren't 

538
00:38:30,760 --> 00:38:33,840
people out there who claim to 
have memories of a past life. 

539
00:38:34,240 --> 00:38:36,640
But let's just entertain the 
notion for a moment that 

540
00:38:37,800 --> 00:38:40,720
reincarnation is real, that 
that's the model. 

541
00:38:40,720 --> 00:38:48,000
Well, what part of this 
personality is more important 

542
00:38:48,000 --> 00:38:52,600
than the previous 500? 
You know, why would this one be 

543
00:38:52,600 --> 00:38:54,160
so important? 
And in. 

544
00:38:54,800 --> 00:39:01,880
In terms of what survives 
consciousness itself, you know, 

545
00:39:01,880 --> 00:39:06,560
with without a body, the body's 
endocrine system is what gives 

546
00:39:06,560 --> 00:39:10,280
us our experience of a lot of 
emotions and it gives us a lot 

547
00:39:10,280 --> 00:39:12,960
of our drives. 
And you know so. 

548
00:39:14,080 --> 00:39:16,440
I personally, you know I can't 
answer that. 

549
00:39:16,440 --> 00:39:19,040
I don't think it's answerable. 
What would a what would a person

550
00:39:19,040 --> 00:39:21,160
look like without a person 
attached to it? 

551
00:39:21,480 --> 00:39:25,760
And yet there are many. 
Descriptions of this happening, 

552
00:39:25,760 --> 00:39:29,120
I've experienced it myself. 
I was, I was struck by lightning

553
00:39:29,400 --> 00:39:35,240
back in 2015 and I had the 
experience of leaving my body 

554
00:39:35,240 --> 00:39:39,560
and hovering above my body, 
laying on the balcony where I'd 

555
00:39:39,560 --> 00:39:47,760
been struck and it was like a 
full on psychedelic experience. 

556
00:39:47,760 --> 00:39:50,120
I mean, that's the closest thing
I can describe it to. 

557
00:39:50,120 --> 00:39:57,760
It was like a very heavy dose of
of mushrooms or LSD and what I 

558
00:39:57,760 --> 00:40:02,680
felt in that moment I was I was 
seeing something specific in 

559
00:40:02,680 --> 00:40:09,200
front of me in the sky. 
And it wasn't I I had thoughts 

560
00:40:09,240 --> 00:40:10,640
running through. 
Dude, it was aliens. 

561
00:40:10,880 --> 00:40:13,960
Dun Dun Dun. 
It it was. 

562
00:40:14,200 --> 00:40:18,600
Know what it looked like was 
like a it was like a golden like

563
00:40:18,600 --> 00:40:21,920
a building that was a mountain 
that was also kind of like a 

564
00:40:21,920 --> 00:40:24,520
mosque or a temple and it was 
made out of. 

565
00:40:24,520 --> 00:40:26,200
Liquid gold. 
That was all. 

566
00:40:26,200 --> 00:40:30,160
Turning and shifting and had 
patterns all over, rippling all 

567
00:40:30,160 --> 00:40:33,080
over it. 
And my thought in that moment 

568
00:40:33,080 --> 00:40:35,040
was. 
Has that always. 

569
00:40:35,040 --> 00:40:37,960
Been there. 
How have I not seen that before?

570
00:40:37,960 --> 00:40:42,600
And the next feeling was of 
vital interest. 

571
00:40:43,000 --> 00:40:47,040
Like, I really wanted to know 
what that was, and I began 

572
00:40:47,040 --> 00:40:49,880
moving. 
Towards it, you know, But there 

573
00:40:49,880 --> 00:40:52,800
was never a feeling of, oh shit,
I'm dead. 

574
00:40:53,320 --> 00:40:56,040
You know or. 
I need to. 

575
00:40:56,040 --> 00:40:59,120
Get back in my body like none of
those thoughts were part of that

576
00:40:59,120 --> 00:41:01,320
experience and that nor was 
there any fear. 

577
00:41:01,320 --> 00:41:06,160
It was literally just the most 
potent curiosity you could ever 

578
00:41:06,160 --> 00:41:10,800
imagine wanting to know. 
What is that that I'm looking 

579
00:41:10,800 --> 00:41:15,240
at, you know, but there was. 
A sense of self. 

580
00:41:15,400 --> 00:41:20,360
It felt, I felt like there was. 
A point of reference, but. 

581
00:41:20,720 --> 00:41:24,520
Fear. 
It seems like would only be 

582
00:41:24,520 --> 00:41:28,280
possible in a body because of 
the endocrine system, because of

583
00:41:28,640 --> 00:41:31,920
these juices flowing through us 
that give us a feeling of fear 

584
00:41:31,920 --> 00:41:33,960
or love. 
Does something give us 

585
00:41:33,960 --> 00:41:36,320
curiosity? 
I don't know, but that that was 

586
00:41:36,760 --> 00:41:40,160
all emotion I had was just 
curiosity and interest. 

587
00:41:40,520 --> 00:41:45,000
Or just real juicy, just juicy, 
juicy meat suits. 

588
00:41:46,360 --> 00:41:48,600
That's the new metal band name 
Juicy Meat. 

589
00:41:48,760 --> 00:41:50,640
Suits, that's what the meat 
puppet. 

590
00:41:53,840 --> 00:41:57,240
So back. 
OK, so Platinus, I did wanna ask

591
00:41:57,240 --> 00:41:59,520
one more question like nerdy 
question. 

592
00:42:01,040 --> 00:42:06,360
Platinus talked about the mind 
and you know like objective, 

593
00:42:06,360 --> 00:42:10,080
subjective and then the realized
intellect, right. 

594
00:42:11,440 --> 00:42:18,040
And he separated it and then 
Iambicus and and Proculus kind 

595
00:42:18,040 --> 00:42:19,840
of messed with that a little bit
too. 

596
00:42:19,840 --> 00:42:23,280
And they divided them into 212 
spheres and then maybe added 

597
00:42:23,280 --> 00:42:27,800
like a third sphere, like 
separating and connecting those 

598
00:42:27,800 --> 00:42:30,120
worlds. 
But I mean, that seems like 

599
00:42:30,120 --> 00:42:33,480
that's a huge part of what led 
to what we know is like 

600
00:42:33,480 --> 00:42:36,160
Christian Gnosticism. 
Sure. 

601
00:42:36,400 --> 00:42:40,800
Yeah, the, the, the, especially.
The Sethian Gnostics were part 

602
00:42:40,800 --> 00:42:44,720
of Plotinus's school. 
They were in the Academy and 

603
00:42:44,960 --> 00:42:50,120
several of the Gospels that 
appear in the Nag Hamadi texts 

604
00:42:50,120 --> 00:42:53,040
that were discovered in Egypt in
1945. 

605
00:42:53,040 --> 00:42:56,400
I think we didn't know about 
those texts. 

606
00:42:56,400 --> 00:43:00,240
We knew their titles because 
Porphyry talks about them 

607
00:43:00,240 --> 00:43:03,840
circulating in Plotinus's 
Academy. 

608
00:43:04,520 --> 00:43:08,920
But when the actual books were 
found, it was like, oh, they do 

609
00:43:08,920 --> 00:43:10,680
exist. 
And when you start looking at 

610
00:43:10,680 --> 00:43:14,640
them, they are Platonic and in 
the extreme. 

611
00:43:15,440 --> 00:43:20,840
And Platinus famously has this 
chapter in his Iniads, which is 

612
00:43:20,840 --> 00:43:24,920
his collection of writings that 
Porphyry organized, called 

613
00:43:24,920 --> 00:43:28,600
Against the Gnostics. 
You know, But what he's against,

614
00:43:29,240 --> 00:43:33,720
even though he does have this 
streak of dualistic Gnosticism 

615
00:43:33,720 --> 00:43:38,200
about his own teachings about 
matter kind of being evil and 

616
00:43:38,720 --> 00:43:43,440
the the intelligible being the 
good, he does have that same 

617
00:43:43,440 --> 00:43:50,000
Gnostic tendency. 
He's against this idea that that

618
00:43:50,040 --> 00:43:53,520
there could be an evil creator 
God, for instance, which is what

619
00:43:53,520 --> 00:43:59,520
the Gnostics get from Plato's 
Timaeus in his Timaeus. 

620
00:44:00,040 --> 00:44:05,200
It's basically the book that 
became the Chaldean Oracles, the

621
00:44:05,200 --> 00:44:09,920
metaphysics behind the book, the
Timaeus dialogue, is really what

622
00:44:09,920 --> 00:44:13,840
informed the Chaldean oracles. 
It's the underlying philosophy, 

623
00:44:13,840 --> 00:44:17,240
but in it you have this 
demiurge. 

624
00:44:17,240 --> 00:44:21,880
And Demiurge, remember, is the 
noose the 2nd party of the three

625
00:44:21,880 --> 00:44:25,360
Hypostasis. 
And Demiurge means the builder, 

626
00:44:25,440 --> 00:44:29,120
the Craftsman, the same thing 
Freemason means. 

627
00:44:29,120 --> 00:44:33,080
And when the Freemasons pray to 
the great architect of the 

628
00:44:33,080 --> 00:44:35,920
universe, they're praying to the
Demiurge. 

629
00:44:36,400 --> 00:44:41,600
And when Christ is called a 
Carpenter, he wasn't. 

630
00:44:41,760 --> 00:44:45,400
The word isn't Carpenter. 
The word is tecton, which means 

631
00:44:45,520 --> 00:44:51,480
Craftsman and the father. 
The 2nd party being the son, is 

632
00:44:51,480 --> 00:44:55,120
the Craftsman, is the demiurge, 
is the noose, the logos. 

633
00:44:55,120 --> 00:44:57,880
Well, that's interesting. 
Well, I know the the Greek word 

634
00:44:57,880 --> 00:45:00,600
techne, which is like your your 
thing. 

635
00:45:00,600 --> 00:45:03,880
Like if you're a sick musician, 
that's your techne or your. 

636
00:45:04,600 --> 00:45:07,160
Technology. 
It's the same group technology, 

637
00:45:07,720 --> 00:45:12,320
right? 
And so in this, the Demiurge 

638
00:45:12,320 --> 00:45:18,680
shows up and matter is eternal. 
In Plato's model, it's not an 

639
00:45:18,680 --> 00:45:23,520
illusion, it's this eternal 
stuff that has no form of its 

640
00:45:23,520 --> 00:45:28,280
own, no qualities of its own. 
But through the interaction of 

641
00:45:28,320 --> 00:45:32,720
the forms, the Platonic forms 
that exist in the mind of the 

642
00:45:32,720 --> 00:45:38,560
one, in the Demiurge, those 
Forms reflect back off matter 

643
00:45:38,560 --> 00:45:41,360
and give us all of these 
quantities and qualities and 

644
00:45:41,360 --> 00:45:45,040
objects and things. 
So the Demiurge and the Timaeus 

645
00:45:45,040 --> 00:45:49,800
dialogue organizes all of this 
stuff into what we see around 

646
00:45:49,800 --> 00:45:56,960
us, into the cosmos. 
And then he attaches A chariot 

647
00:45:56,960 --> 00:46:01,920
to each one, which this chariot 
is soul. 

648
00:46:02,440 --> 00:46:06,640
He makes the world soul and 
animates everything by attaching

649
00:46:07,000 --> 00:46:09,520
a soul, a chariot to it. 
Remember the chariot is that 

650
00:46:09,520 --> 00:46:13,840
soul vehicle and we say animate.
That's really where's anima 

651
00:46:14,080 --> 00:46:17,320
means soul. 
So he's in soul in everything 

652
00:46:17,320 --> 00:46:25,160
giving it life and and being. 
And he that's what becomes for 

653
00:46:25,160 --> 00:46:29,960
the Gnostics, the evil creator. 
You know this evil demiurge this

654
00:46:30,200 --> 00:46:33,680
because he's lesser than he's 
this he's under the highest God.

655
00:46:34,160 --> 00:46:37,480
So they see him as like. 
A Well, isn't it because too, I 

656
00:46:37,480 --> 00:46:40,640
mean, obviously there's 
different explanations, but also

657
00:46:40,640 --> 00:46:45,080
because he's, he's ignorant to 
this one true God, right? 

658
00:46:45,080 --> 00:46:48,600
So like, he's created an 
inferior product, basically. 

659
00:46:48,600 --> 00:46:51,680
And people are like, whoa, what 
are we doing here, you know? 

660
00:46:52,680 --> 00:46:55,560
Yeah, yeah, there. 
There are Gnostic myths where 

661
00:46:55,560 --> 00:46:59,480
Sophia, the female part of 
Divinity and Logos, the male 

662
00:46:59,480 --> 00:47:01,200
part, they're like a married 
couple. 

663
00:47:01,680 --> 00:47:05,680
Sophia wants to have a child, 
but the Logos does not. 

664
00:47:05,840 --> 00:47:09,520
So she goes and reproduces on 
her own. 

665
00:47:09,520 --> 00:47:14,320
But because it's produced from 
only half of Divinity, it comes 

666
00:47:14,320 --> 00:47:21,080
out lopsided and half developed,
and she's embarrassed by it, so 

667
00:47:21,120 --> 00:47:23,360
she hides him in his own little 
cosmos. 

668
00:47:23,480 --> 00:47:26,480
Yeah. 
Is that Is it because Sophia 

669
00:47:26,880 --> 00:47:30,440
emanated without the Christ 
aspect of the consciousness or 

670
00:47:30,440 --> 00:47:31,000
something? 
Yeah. 

671
00:47:31,040 --> 00:47:33,440
And young and young. 
It's kind of complicated, right?

672
00:47:33,440 --> 00:47:35,600
I mean, like it does. 
They're getting people. 

673
00:47:35,600 --> 00:47:38,000
Like if you're on board with 
this back in the day, you're 

674
00:47:38,000 --> 00:47:40,320
you're, you're probably one of 
the top thinkers too. 

675
00:47:40,320 --> 00:47:43,320
Because it it's not as simple 
as, oh, there's a God, let's 

676
00:47:43,320 --> 00:47:45,840
worship this God. 
It's like really complex 

677
00:47:46,520 --> 00:47:49,880
metaphysical, you know? 
They're trying to rectify it 

678
00:47:49,880 --> 00:47:54,400
with Jewish teachings too. 
So here they have the Timaeus, 

679
00:47:54,400 --> 00:48:00,600
which is a very really focused 
creation story, and then you 

680
00:48:00,600 --> 00:48:05,200
have floating around outside 
Genesis with the Jews and these 

681
00:48:05,200 --> 00:48:10,920
texts are all circulating, so. 
When these these these? 

682
00:48:10,920 --> 00:48:16,200
Gnostic Christians who were 
Platonic but also this. 

683
00:48:16,200 --> 00:48:18,200
In the early stages of this 
post. 

684
00:48:18,200 --> 00:48:21,680
Jewish religion that was forming
that we call Christianity. 

685
00:48:22,360 --> 00:48:25,200
They took what they had read 
from Plato and they go back and 

686
00:48:25,200 --> 00:48:27,240
they read Genesis. 
Well guess what? 

687
00:48:28,120 --> 00:48:33,160
In the original text it says 
that man is created by Elohim, 

688
00:48:33,640 --> 00:48:36,960
the word used for God. 
In the beginning of Genesis God 

689
00:48:36,960 --> 00:48:38,000
created the heavens and the 
earth. 

690
00:48:38,000 --> 00:48:41,680
It says Elohim. 
Well Elohim is complex. 

691
00:48:41,680 --> 00:48:46,120
Anyway, it's a problem because 
it's it's a plural for one, so 

692
00:48:46,120 --> 00:48:48,920
it means gods, but it's a 
feminine plural. 

693
00:48:49,000 --> 00:48:54,360
So it almost would mean 
goddesses create man and female 

694
00:48:54,800 --> 00:48:58,280
as a hermaphroditic spiritual 
being. 

695
00:48:58,800 --> 00:49:03,440
Well, by the time we get to 
chapter 2, Elohim disappears and

696
00:49:03,440 --> 00:49:07,360
now the word that is that shows 
up is Lord God. 

697
00:49:07,880 --> 00:49:10,280
And in the English translation, 
the King James Version, it 

698
00:49:10,280 --> 00:49:13,960
doesn't explain that well, Lord 
God is a different deity called 

699
00:49:13,960 --> 00:49:17,480
Yahweh or Yaldheva. 
There are lots of different 

700
00:49:17,480 --> 00:49:20,960
pronunciations, but it's the 
Yodhevaohe, the Tetragrammaton 

701
00:49:21,400 --> 00:49:27,080
God, and it says in chapter 2 
that he created man of the dust 

702
00:49:27,080 --> 00:49:31,680
of the ground and then breathed 
life into him. 

703
00:49:32,280 --> 00:49:34,680
So the Gnostics. 
The people who would be who 

704
00:49:34,680 --> 00:49:36,080
would? 
Become the Gnostics. 

705
00:49:36,640 --> 00:49:39,560
They see this and they say, Oh 
well, that's a second God. 

706
00:49:39,880 --> 00:49:42,880
And he took something that was 
already a spiritual being and 

707
00:49:42,880 --> 00:49:45,560
perfect because it's 
hermaphroditic and has male and 

708
00:49:45,560 --> 00:49:49,400
female components. 
He trapped it in matter, created

709
00:49:49,400 --> 00:49:52,720
it of the dust of the ground, 
and then separated the female 

710
00:49:52,720 --> 00:49:57,040
out in the form of Eve and put 
these restrictions on them in 

711
00:49:57,040 --> 00:50:00,920
this little garden, you know, so
that for them he's the demiurge 

712
00:50:01,200 --> 00:50:04,120
and Elohim is connected with the
highest deity. 

713
00:50:04,600 --> 00:50:11,080
And and of course, Jehovah tells
Adam and Eve, don't go eat from 

714
00:50:11,080 --> 00:50:13,640
that tree. 
If you do, it'll kill you. 

715
00:50:14,520 --> 00:50:18,800
And the serpent comes along and 
he says, you know that's not 

716
00:50:18,800 --> 00:50:20,920
true, Eat it. 
You'll see you won't die. 

717
00:50:20,920 --> 00:50:22,960
And they didn't die when they 
ate it. 

718
00:50:23,200 --> 00:50:26,160
They might have introduced the 
possibility of death, which is 

719
00:50:26,160 --> 00:50:29,640
how it's explained in 
Christianity and Judaism. 

720
00:50:30,080 --> 00:50:31,920
But they didn't die after they 
ate it. 

721
00:50:31,920 --> 00:50:34,600
And their eyes were opened, and 
they became as gods, knowing 

722
00:50:35,280 --> 00:50:38,080
good and evil. 
So for the Gnostics, that 

723
00:50:38,080 --> 00:50:42,480
serpent, they reasoned, Oh well,
that serpent must have been one 

724
00:50:42,480 --> 00:50:46,280
of those Elohim, one of those 
goddesses, or at least they're 

725
00:50:46,280 --> 00:50:49,600
emissary. 
And they sent this being down 

726
00:50:49,680 --> 00:50:55,480
into this realm where Jehovah 
had trapped Adam and Eve and 

727
00:50:55,480 --> 00:50:57,840
sent them. 
They sent them down to come and 

728
00:50:57,840 --> 00:51:01,320
say, hey, if you would eat this 
fruit, if you'd take this 

729
00:51:01,320 --> 00:51:05,040
psychedelic, it would open your 
eyes and you'd realize your 

730
00:51:05,520 --> 00:51:11,120
origins are his origins, that 
y'all both come from the same 

731
00:51:11,120 --> 00:51:15,240
place, which is this highest God
realm you know. 

732
00:51:15,600 --> 00:51:21,880
So you can see how with the 
Timaeus coming along attempting 

733
00:51:21,880 --> 00:51:26,280
to reinterpret Genesis with this
new information, how that 

734
00:51:26,280 --> 00:51:30,360
Demiurge character becomes 
Yahweh, becomes Yalda bad, 

735
00:51:30,400 --> 00:51:36,200
becomes this blind idiot God 
that has motives that are 

736
00:51:36,200 --> 00:51:40,720
different from the Elohim who 
created man, male and female. 

737
00:51:40,720 --> 00:51:42,480
As a spiritual. 
Being, you know. 

738
00:51:43,760 --> 00:51:48,600
Yeah, interesting stuff. 
You know, not to get like down 

739
00:51:48,600 --> 00:51:51,720
the religious path, but like you
know what's always intrigued me 

740
00:51:51,720 --> 00:51:54,000
when I was getting, reading 
through all the stuff like 

741
00:51:54,000 --> 00:51:57,080
especially when we started this 
podcast, was the character 

742
00:51:57,080 --> 00:51:59,000
Melchizedek. 
And I think it's been like 

743
00:51:59,160 --> 00:52:03,080
bastardized through like New Age
shit. 

744
00:52:03,360 --> 00:52:06,920
But like if you if you go back 
and you look at like it's only 

745
00:52:06,920 --> 00:52:09,600
referenced a couple times, it 
means like a high order priest. 

746
00:52:09,600 --> 00:52:13,160
Some even say Jesus was a part 
of this order. 

747
00:52:14,080 --> 00:52:17,480
Yeah, so like that's interesting
to me and I wish there was like 

748
00:52:17,480 --> 00:52:19,560
more on that. 
But it like I said, it seems 

749
00:52:19,560 --> 00:52:24,640
like I found a few esoteric 
things, but it's more aligned 

750
00:52:24,640 --> 00:52:28,120
with crazy stuff. 
Do you do you know anything more

751
00:52:28,120 --> 00:52:33,600
about that or just kind of that?
It's it's associated with Jesus 

752
00:52:33,600 --> 00:52:39,480
because when Abram before he 
becomes Abraham, his name is 

753
00:52:39,480 --> 00:52:42,800
Abram. 
He gets initiated into this 

754
00:52:42,800 --> 00:52:45,760
order of Melchizedek by 
Melchizedek himself or 

755
00:52:45,760 --> 00:52:48,320
Melchizedek as you hear it 
pronounced both ways. 

756
00:52:49,560 --> 00:52:52,960
And the way he initiates him is 
by sitting down and having bread

757
00:52:52,960 --> 00:52:56,600
and wine with him. 
That's the initiatory process. 

758
00:52:57,240 --> 00:53:01,960
And it's at this point that he 
is given one of the letters of 

759
00:53:01,960 --> 00:53:05,720
Yahweh's name. 
Is YHVH. 

760
00:53:05,720 --> 00:53:09,240
Is his name Yode Vaohe? 
He's given one of those Hays. 

761
00:53:09,240 --> 00:53:12,560
One of those HS is placed in the
middle of Abram and it becomes 

762
00:53:12,640 --> 00:53:17,280
Abraham. 
And you see a similar idea with 

763
00:53:17,640 --> 00:53:20,920
Jesus. 
This came about with with the 

764
00:53:21,400 --> 00:53:25,520
Florentine Platonic Academy. 
There was a man named Johann 

765
00:53:25,520 --> 00:53:29,920
Royklin who wrote this book 
called De Art Kabbalistica and 

766
00:53:29,920 --> 00:53:38,480
in it he argues that the name of
Jesus, Yeshua is just those same

767
00:53:38,480 --> 00:53:43,240
4 letters Yode Vaohe Yahweh with
the letter Sheen which makes the

768
00:53:43,240 --> 00:53:47,800
SH sound inserted in the middle 
of it, just like Abram got 

769
00:53:47,920 --> 00:53:50,200
Abraham with the H inserted in 
it. 

770
00:53:50,520 --> 00:53:54,720
Now, Sheen isn't a letter that's
in the divine name, but by 

771
00:53:54,720 --> 00:53:57,680
inserting that letter in the 
middle of the divine name, you 

772
00:53:57,680 --> 00:54:03,120
get a new name, this Yeshua. 
So it's an interesting, 

773
00:54:03,600 --> 00:54:07,720
interesting thing. 
Melchizedek he's he plays a 

774
00:54:07,720 --> 00:54:13,280
larger role in the the esoteric 
side of Judaism, but he does 

775
00:54:13,280 --> 00:54:16,480
show up in the Bible when he 
initiates Abram. 

776
00:54:19,320 --> 00:54:25,040
Interesting. 
So, all right, now let's get 

777
00:54:25,040 --> 00:54:29,000
down to business. 
What was actually going on? 

778
00:54:29,000 --> 00:54:34,520
Do you think that these ancient,
you know, Proclus, iambicus, 

779
00:54:34,920 --> 00:54:37,800
porphyry Platinus, do you think 
they're actually communicating 

780
00:54:37,800 --> 00:54:40,640
with any sort of God or 
metaphysical entity? 

781
00:54:41,120 --> 00:54:44,280
Do you think it's all just 
psychological in the mind? 

782
00:54:44,720 --> 00:54:49,000
Do you think that there was 
possibly psychoactive compounds 

783
00:54:49,000 --> 00:54:50,480
at play as well? 
Like what? 

784
00:54:50,480 --> 00:54:51,880
What do you think was happening 
here? 

785
00:54:52,440 --> 00:54:55,120
There were definitely 
psychoactive compounds involved 

786
00:54:55,120 --> 00:54:57,440
and back then they called them 
pharmaca. 

787
00:54:57,960 --> 00:55:02,040
Pharmaca gets translated in the 
Bible, for instance, as sorcery.

788
00:55:02,040 --> 00:55:05,800
When you see the word sorcery, 
the word used is pharmaca, and 

789
00:55:05,800 --> 00:55:08,720
that's the root of our word for 
pharmaceutical. 

790
00:55:09,080 --> 00:55:14,440
It it means magic plants. 
Now, later, it can come to mean 

791
00:55:15,880 --> 00:55:23,680
any magical act that has an 
effect by a means that can't be 

792
00:55:23,680 --> 00:55:26,840
seen, like the way a drug works.
You take the drug and you feel 

793
00:55:26,840 --> 00:55:29,840
different, but you don't know 
what it did or how it makes you 

794
00:55:29,840 --> 00:55:32,600
feel different. 
The mechanism by which it works 

795
00:55:32,600 --> 00:55:36,720
is invisible. 
So that became, in later times 

796
00:55:37,320 --> 00:55:41,160
anything like that, a a poem. 
If you read a poem and it made 

797
00:55:41,160 --> 00:55:43,840
someone feel different, that 
could technically be a pharmaca.

798
00:55:44,320 --> 00:55:47,720
But in the beginning it's 
specifically magical plants. 

799
00:55:48,520 --> 00:55:54,080
And in theogy they have this 
practice of animating statues 

800
00:55:54,320 --> 00:55:58,960
and not making robots of of and 
filling them with anima. 

801
00:55:59,440 --> 00:56:02,800
In the means by which they do 
this is with pharmaca. 

802
00:56:02,800 --> 00:56:06,000
They use drugs. 
They put drugs in the in the 

803
00:56:06,000 --> 00:56:09,240
statue of these gods in the same
way that we put drugs in 

804
00:56:09,240 --> 00:56:14,320
ourselves to animate ourselves 
under those contexts. 

805
00:56:14,760 --> 00:56:17,000
And Yambulcas talks about, you 
know, the use. 

806
00:56:17,000 --> 00:56:20,400
Of. 
Pharmaca in theogy and we know, 

807
00:56:20,760 --> 00:56:23,640
remember we said that they they 
ascend through these levels of 

808
00:56:23,640 --> 00:56:27,880
the heavens that was basically 
laid out by porphyry the the the

809
00:56:28,600 --> 00:56:33,320
system. 
Well, when Christianity first 

810
00:56:33,320 --> 00:56:36,880
came along, it was a mystery 
school. 

811
00:56:36,960 --> 00:56:39,760
It was secretive. 
Nobody knew what they were 

812
00:56:39,760 --> 00:56:42,280
doing, and if you hadn't been 
initiated, you weren't allowed 

813
00:56:42,280 --> 00:56:44,160
to see or hear about what they 
were doing. 

814
00:56:45,000 --> 00:56:48,440
The first time we get a picture 
of what the early Christians 

815
00:56:48,440 --> 00:56:52,920
were actually doing comes from a
book by this philosopher named 

816
00:56:53,120 --> 00:57:00,240
Celsus, who is a Platonist. 
In Celsus, he describes this 

817
00:57:00,240 --> 00:57:04,640
ritual that's familiar to 
Christians now in Orthodoxy and 

818
00:57:04,640 --> 00:57:08,640
Catholicism, where you're you're
baptized and immediately after 

819
00:57:08,640 --> 00:57:13,200
baptism you're anointed with oil
and a chrismation, and then you 

820
00:57:13,200 --> 00:57:15,880
participate in the communion, 
the Lord's Supper. 

821
00:57:17,280 --> 00:57:22,520
Well, in some of the forms of 
these baptisms we see in in this

822
00:57:23,320 --> 00:57:28,240
one type of Gnostic group, they 
hold certain plants in their 

823
00:57:28,240 --> 00:57:30,560
mouths while they're being 
baptized. 

824
00:57:30,560 --> 00:57:34,640
We don't know what the plant is,
but we know that that same plant

825
00:57:34,640 --> 00:57:38,520
according to plenty the elder 
was used in necromancy 

826
00:57:38,520 --> 00:57:43,520
specifically to call up the soul
of of Homer from Hades. 

827
00:57:44,160 --> 00:57:47,360
So it's it's already associated 
with magic and with visions and 

828
00:57:47,360 --> 00:57:50,360
things. 
But when Kelsa starts talking 

829
00:57:50,360 --> 00:57:53,880
about their ritual, he says when
they get to the consecration 

830
00:57:53,880 --> 00:57:59,760
with that oil, he says that they
rub this, what he calls the 

831
00:57:59,760 --> 00:58:03,560
white unguent of the tree of 
life all over their body. 

832
00:58:03,760 --> 00:58:05,880
And when this happens, they 
leave. 

833
00:58:05,880 --> 00:58:09,520
Their soul leaves their body and
travels up through the seven 

834
00:58:09,600 --> 00:58:12,240
heavens, and they have this 
ascent ritual. 

835
00:58:12,240 --> 00:58:15,640
This is scent experience. 
Well, that we don't know what 

836
00:58:15,640 --> 00:58:18,760
that white unguent of the Tree 
of Life is, but we have 

837
00:58:19,280 --> 00:58:23,920
precedent for it in other 
contexts, and it's it's flying 

838
00:58:23,920 --> 00:58:25,200
ointment. 
Basically. 

839
00:58:26,160 --> 00:58:30,800
It's the use of various 
psychotropic visionary compounds

840
00:58:31,480 --> 00:58:35,920
that are taken in the body 
topically by infusing them into 

841
00:58:36,560 --> 00:58:42,240
an unguent or an ointment. 
And this is what we when we hear

842
00:58:42,240 --> 00:58:45,920
about the witches flying by, 
covering their bodies in this 

843
00:58:45,920 --> 00:58:49,080
ointment by them leaving their 
body and travelling through the 

844
00:58:49,080 --> 00:58:53,360
heavens, that's that motif of 
flight that survives in in the 

845
00:58:53,560 --> 00:58:56,960
the later witchcraft in. 
Europe just smearing detera oil 

846
00:58:56,960 --> 00:59:01,560
all over there. 
Natura, Mandrake, belladonna, 

847
00:59:02,600 --> 00:59:05,440
henbane, and henbane. 
Sounds terrible by. 

848
00:59:06,720 --> 00:59:11,040
The way yeah it does and Delphi 
when the when the Lithia the 

849
00:59:11,040 --> 00:59:13,440
Oracle at Delphi when she would 
prophecy. 

850
00:59:14,080 --> 00:59:17,200
She would burn. 
Hin bane seeds and inhale them. 

851
00:59:17,920 --> 00:59:21,720
And and this was this 
association between Delphi and 

852
00:59:21,720 --> 00:59:25,200
hin Bane was so tight that hin 
bane back then was known as the 

853
00:59:25,200 --> 00:59:29,760
herb of Apollo. 
Apollo being the God who was the

854
00:59:29,760 --> 00:59:36,680
God of Delphi, the God of 
oracles also, but this infusing 

855
00:59:36,680 --> 00:59:41,040
hin Bane in an ointment and 
putting it on their bodies, I 

856
00:59:41,040 --> 00:59:45,360
wouldn't put that past them. 
But we know that if the early 

857
00:59:45,360 --> 00:59:49,680
Christians were doing it, we 
know how much they were 

858
00:59:49,680 --> 00:59:54,440
borrowing from Platonic practice
already from Platonism and 

859
00:59:54,440 --> 00:59:58,120
Neoplatonism and theology in 
general. 

860
00:59:59,240 --> 01:00:03,360
It stands to reason. 
That that this practice also 

861
01:00:03,360 --> 01:00:08,240
existed in. 
The Pagan quote UN quote Pagan 

862
01:00:08,280 --> 01:00:11,960
side of it too. 
So I absolutely am under the 

863
01:00:11,960 --> 01:00:16,640
impression that they were using 
psychedelics and and even if we 

864
01:00:16,640 --> 01:00:18,840
go back before the 
Neoplatonates, we go back to the

865
01:00:18,840 --> 01:00:22,480
pre Socratics with Empedocles. 
You know in the in the fragments

866
01:00:22,480 --> 01:00:25,720
of Empedocles, one of the 
fragments is he says that he's 

867
01:00:25,720 --> 01:00:30,720
going to teach his student all 
manner of Pharmaca, all manner 

868
01:00:30,720 --> 01:00:34,680
of doing magic with plants with 
these magical plants. 

869
01:00:35,560 --> 01:00:42,360
So it it's it's very tightly 
woven connection with with 

870
01:00:42,360 --> 01:00:45,800
psychedelics and these ascent 
motifs, so. 

871
01:00:46,040 --> 01:00:49,280
Yeah, I mean I'm just curious 
cause like I don't know like 

872
01:00:49,280 --> 01:00:51,720
four years ago, I'm just 
thinking like who are these 

873
01:00:51,720 --> 01:00:54,120
gods? 
Where were The Who, what were 

874
01:00:54,120 --> 01:00:56,240
these, you know? 
And then like I just that sent 

875
01:00:56,240 --> 01:00:59,160
me on the path and now you were 
even in our documentary as 

876
01:00:59,160 --> 01:01:00,480
within. 
So without where we're 

877
01:01:00,480 --> 01:01:05,000
analyzing, you know, are UFOs 
like the kind of the modern day 

878
01:01:05,000 --> 01:01:09,440
Greek God in the sense that 
people you know will believe 

879
01:01:09,440 --> 01:01:12,360
that there's this thing even 
though, OK, yeah, I've had weird

880
01:01:12,360 --> 01:01:15,400
experiences, you've had weird 
experiences, but can you put 

881
01:01:15,400 --> 01:01:18,920
your hand on that, on that 
experience and be like, hey, 

882
01:01:18,920 --> 01:01:23,120
check this out, No, you can't. 
So it's more of like a gnosis, 

883
01:01:23,120 --> 01:01:26,720
you know, like a, a knowledge 
from experience which you can't 

884
01:01:26,720 --> 01:01:31,440
really share with other people. 
So back then, is that the same 

885
01:01:31,440 --> 01:01:33,800
thing? 
And like, the other thing is, is

886
01:01:33,800 --> 01:01:37,880
like, OK, so Apollo, did enough 
people get together and just 

887
01:01:37,880 --> 01:01:42,600
like, you know what I'm saying, 
like, 'cause think about modern 

888
01:01:42,600 --> 01:01:46,080
Christianity, OK, let's believe 
there's one true God or 

889
01:01:46,080 --> 01:01:49,720
whatever. 
You know, is this. 

890
01:01:49,960 --> 01:01:52,240
People have different 
perceptions of God. 

891
01:01:52,240 --> 01:01:54,920
Oh, he's a bearded Zeus looking 
gun in the clouds. 

892
01:01:54,920 --> 01:01:59,080
Or he's, you know, primordial 
energy. 

893
01:01:59,080 --> 01:02:03,680
Or whatever the case may be. 
There's not like a consistent 

894
01:02:03,680 --> 01:02:06,760
thing. 
Like how how were these gods so 

895
01:02:06,760 --> 01:02:11,080
consistent and how were people 
interacting with that? 

896
01:02:11,080 --> 01:02:16,040
Consistency, I guess, is the 
best way to phrase what I'm 

897
01:02:16,040 --> 01:02:18,120
trying to say, if that makes 
sense. 

898
01:02:18,520 --> 01:02:24,680
Well the the the way the gods 
looked in ancient Greece were 

899
01:02:24,680 --> 01:02:28,600
given to us by Homer and Hesiod 
when they describe them. 

900
01:02:28,600 --> 01:02:31,400
Then they describe their 
epithets like when he when Homer

901
01:02:31,400 --> 01:02:37,760
would say Gray eyed Athena. 
So this, this Gray eyed goddess.

902
01:02:38,000 --> 01:02:41,320
If you saw something like that 
in a vision and you were Greek, 

903
01:02:41,320 --> 01:02:44,640
you would naturally think, oh 
that's that was Athena I just 

904
01:02:44,640 --> 01:02:46,840
saw. 
But once you're given a picture 

905
01:02:46,840 --> 01:02:50,840
of what the gods should look 
like in a visionary experience, 

906
01:02:52,760 --> 01:02:57,360
you you've already been kind of 
programmed to see it that way. 

907
01:02:57,680 --> 01:03:00,240
But I think it's important to 
point out that, so it's. 

908
01:03:00,240 --> 01:03:03,440
Like a Machine elf type thing. 
Like a Terence McKenna 

909
01:03:03,800 --> 01:03:07,120
mentioning machine elf and then 
just the mind. 

910
01:03:07,120 --> 01:03:09,440
So suggest, suggestible kind of 
a thing. 

911
01:03:09,920 --> 01:03:13,960
Yeah, yeah, I think so. 
But at the same time, seeing 

912
01:03:13,960 --> 01:03:16,640
Gods wasn't. 
The norm. 

913
01:03:16,640 --> 01:03:21,040
I mean, very few times you see 
somebody saying they saw gods 

914
01:03:21,560 --> 01:03:25,720
rather they would interact with 
the gods through oracles who 

915
01:03:25,720 --> 01:03:28,560
would do drugs, go into trance, 
and then utter something that 

916
01:03:28,560 --> 01:03:31,600
was so seemed so nonsensical at 
the time. 

917
01:03:31,600 --> 01:03:34,400
And then later something would 
happen and you'd say, oh, that's

918
01:03:34,400 --> 01:03:38,800
what she meant, you know, or 
through just divination 

919
01:03:39,240 --> 01:03:41,560
practices. 
All of these were how they would

920
01:03:42,120 --> 01:03:46,640
interact with the gods, but 
nobody was really seeing gods. 

921
01:03:47,000 --> 01:03:49,720
Now that's not to say nobody 
was, I mean, but it wasn't the 

922
01:03:49,720 --> 01:03:54,680
common thing. 
And in regard to UFOs, you know 

923
01:03:54,680 --> 01:04:01,080
that the the the common vision 
of of the circular object that 

924
01:04:01,280 --> 01:04:04,920
that circles in the heavens. 
You know when Plato describes 

925
01:04:04,920 --> 01:04:10,280
the gods, he describes the 
perfect, the motion of the gods 

926
01:04:10,280 --> 01:04:14,520
as being circular in orbit. 
You know that that anything 

927
01:04:14,520 --> 01:04:20,160
that's perfect would basically 
be circular and make circles, 

928
01:04:21,560 --> 01:04:25,080
and I think that fits very well 
with the visual of the classic 

929
01:04:25,160 --> 01:04:29,480
UFO that people tend to report. 
You know, when I saw, I saw. 

930
01:04:30,160 --> 01:04:31,720
It didn't. 
Look like that. 

931
01:04:31,720 --> 01:04:35,400
But but yeah, Young is drawing 
on Plato and he gives that 

932
01:04:35,400 --> 01:04:38,600
interpretation, you know, of 
course, for him, it's no longer 

933
01:04:38,600 --> 01:04:40,360
a God. 
It becomes the archetype of the 

934
01:04:40,360 --> 01:04:44,640
self, you know, the complete 
self, the the person who has 

935
01:04:44,960 --> 01:04:48,760
integrated all of his archetypes
that he previously had projected

936
01:04:48,760 --> 01:04:52,720
onto the world, and it becomes 
the perfect circle or sphere. 

937
01:04:53,280 --> 01:04:57,160
But that mode of thinking began 
with Plato. 

938
01:04:59,080 --> 01:05:01,400
Yeah, I just, like I said, it's 
just something. 

939
01:05:02,480 --> 01:05:04,120
That's why I've come to the 
conclusion. 

940
01:05:04,120 --> 01:05:05,960
I mean, we've done enough 
episodes on it. 

941
01:05:05,960 --> 01:05:07,640
We've had you on a million 
times, too. 

942
01:05:09,200 --> 01:05:13,200
That for me, altered states of 
consciousness is kind of the 

943
01:05:13,200 --> 01:05:17,200
only way to even experience 
metaphysics. 

944
01:05:18,480 --> 01:05:23,240
I don't know how you could 
experience something like that 

945
01:05:23,240 --> 01:05:26,320
in day-to-day consciousness and 
then even like people that are 

946
01:05:26,320 --> 01:05:30,360
talking about like, you know, 
night time stuff. 

947
01:05:30,360 --> 01:05:33,600
It's just it makes me wonder 
what are they tired? 

948
01:05:33,600 --> 01:05:36,440
Is it sleep paralysis? 
That, again, Not that that 

949
01:05:36,440 --> 01:05:40,960
couldn't be some sort of vehicle
to connect with some other realm

950
01:05:40,960 --> 01:05:45,040
or whatever or some sort of, you
know, chemical gateway to 

951
01:05:45,160 --> 01:05:48,400
whatever. 
But it just makes me wonder. 

952
01:05:48,400 --> 01:05:51,760
Like, you know, I know I'm, I 
want, I want truth. 

953
01:05:51,760 --> 01:05:54,880
So I'm going to be fully So 
like, when I had my UFOI, like, 

954
01:05:54,880 --> 01:05:57,680
I didn't know or orb experience 
with my dad where we saw in his 

955
01:05:57,680 --> 01:05:59,880
back here, like, I didn't be 
like, oh, I saw a UFO. 

956
01:05:59,880 --> 01:06:02,800
And that's like, oh, let's try 
and, you know, put a whole 

957
01:06:02,800 --> 01:06:05,000
mythology behind what just 
happened. 

958
01:06:05,000 --> 01:06:07,400
But we just both kept saying, 
like, that was weird. 

959
01:06:07,400 --> 01:06:09,040
That was bizarre. 
You know we just kept looking 

960
01:06:09,040 --> 01:06:11,720
into like that was fucking 
weird, you know, So it's like, 

961
01:06:13,280 --> 01:06:16,840
but I think the problem lies 
when when people do create that 

962
01:06:16,840 --> 01:06:20,920
mythology or they're maybe not 
as curious, so they're not 

963
01:06:20,920 --> 01:06:26,240
willing to to go through the 
steps of trying to understand 

964
01:06:26,240 --> 01:06:30,480
what happened or look into it 
deeper if that makes sense. 

965
01:06:30,480 --> 01:06:32,560
You know, it makes you wonder 
how many people have experienced

966
01:06:32,560 --> 01:06:37,600
weird things that just don't 
have any interest of you know, 

967
01:06:38,800 --> 01:06:40,640
what happened to them. 
And then there's people that's 

968
01:06:40,640 --> 01:06:45,600
like that's their wake up call 
or that's the the initiation or 

969
01:06:45,600 --> 01:06:48,080
that's the paradigm shift or 
whatever, you know. 

970
01:06:48,080 --> 01:06:52,560
So I think, I don't know, I 
think life's weird and I think 

971
01:06:52,560 --> 01:06:55,200
that the mind is such a powerful
thing. 

972
01:06:56,360 --> 01:06:59,320
It's so easily influenced. 
And when I look at these ancient

973
01:06:59,320 --> 01:07:01,720
people, it's so hard to even 
think about somebody else's 

974
01:07:01,720 --> 01:07:04,400
consciousness. 
Today, when I have everything at

975
01:07:04,400 --> 01:07:08,440
my fingertips on the Internet 
and I can look anything up to go

976
01:07:08,440 --> 01:07:13,480
back 4000 years, 5000 years, 
whatever, is is insane to try 

977
01:07:13,480 --> 01:07:16,320
and even think about what those 
people, what mindset they were 

978
01:07:16,320 --> 01:07:19,520
in. 
And and I think you hit the nail

979
01:07:19,520 --> 01:07:23,480
on the head when you said that, 
you know, to experience these 

980
01:07:23,480 --> 01:07:27,120
things implies an altered state 
of consciousness that that can 

981
01:07:27,120 --> 01:07:29,680
mean drugs, that can mean 
meditation, that can mean sleep 

982
01:07:29,680 --> 01:07:32,440
deprivation that can mean a 
whole host of things and 

983
01:07:32,440 --> 01:07:36,640
transmit through theater music, 
all of those things induce 

984
01:07:36,640 --> 01:07:38,160
altered. 
People get runner's high. 

985
01:07:38,160 --> 01:07:41,000
I mean, there's so many 
different ways to get to achieve

986
01:07:41,000 --> 01:07:43,800
altered states of consciousness,
but they didn't have the. 

987
01:07:44,000 --> 01:07:46,680
Problem of you and your dad. 
Like, I'm sure y'all weren't 

988
01:07:46,880 --> 01:07:49,120
meditating when you saw the orb.
No. 

989
01:07:49,120 --> 01:07:52,280
So yeah, no, we were. 
We were awake. 

990
01:07:52,920 --> 01:07:56,120
We were. 
I was about to have. 

991
01:07:56,120 --> 01:07:58,680
I don't drink, really, but it 
was his birthday and I was about

992
01:07:58,680 --> 01:08:02,280
to have a Stella and I. 
We didn't. 

993
01:08:02,280 --> 01:08:05,440
My wife went to go grab it from 
the kitchen and came back and 

994
01:08:05,440 --> 01:08:09,160
she had her, she had her back 
turned to it, and my dad and I 

995
01:08:09,160 --> 01:08:13,440
were facing out of his backyard.
And yeah, we saw this orange orb

996
01:08:13,440 --> 01:08:17,000
hover. 
I looked it up afterwards. 

997
01:08:17,000 --> 01:08:18,920
It was where the Scorpius 
constellation was. 

998
01:08:18,920 --> 01:08:20,640
But it wasn't this was like, 
close. 

999
01:08:20,640 --> 01:08:22,680
This was this couldn't have been
some star. 

1000
01:08:22,920 --> 01:08:26,080
And it just darted off before, 
like, I went to grab my phone. 

1001
01:08:26,600 --> 01:08:28,680
And I wasn't even thinking on 
the level, like, oh, I'm gonna 

1002
01:08:28,680 --> 01:08:30,920
try and take a picture or video.
I was actually trying to pull up

1003
01:08:30,920 --> 01:08:34,439
the star chart to make sure to 
see what I was looking at. 

1004
01:08:34,840 --> 01:08:37,880
And by the time and I knew it 
wasn't really a star. 

1005
01:08:37,880 --> 01:08:39,920
But by the time I pulled it up, 
this thing was already gone. 

1006
01:08:39,920 --> 01:08:42,040
And like I said, we just kept 
saying how bizarre it was. 

1007
01:08:42,040 --> 01:08:45,520
But, you know, I'm not gonna sit
here and say, oh, it was this or

1008
01:08:45,520 --> 01:08:46,279
oh, it was that. 
I don't know. 

1009
01:08:46,279 --> 01:08:47,439
It could have been ball 
lightning. 

1010
01:08:47,439 --> 01:08:50,439
It was, you know, it could have 
been a lot of different things. 

1011
01:08:50,439 --> 01:08:52,920
But what I know is it made me 
feel weird. 

1012
01:08:53,080 --> 01:08:57,600
I had a weird feeling. 
My dad had a weird feeling, You 

1013
01:08:57,600 --> 01:09:04,359
know, I don't know, but. 
And you you know, if one person 

1014
01:09:04,359 --> 01:09:08,279
is in an altered state of 
consciousness, it it's a common 

1015
01:09:08,279 --> 01:09:10,479
trope that it can influence 
other people. 

1016
01:09:10,520 --> 01:09:13,479
We that's what contact. 
Hire It did put me in like a 

1017
01:09:13,479 --> 01:09:16,080
state though. 
Now that you're so like not like

1018
01:09:16,080 --> 01:09:23,040
anxious, but just like an an 
excitive, an static state, I 

1019
01:09:23,040 --> 01:09:25,840
guess is that's what I would say
static. 

1020
01:09:26,279 --> 01:09:34,920
And you've heard of Filia do the
it's a psychological concept 

1021
01:09:34,920 --> 01:09:39,160
using psychiatry, it means 
madness shared by two or you. 

1022
01:09:39,160 --> 01:09:41,840
It can have Filia tois madness 
shared by three. 

1023
01:09:41,840 --> 01:09:49,319
But it's generally that two 
persons share in in what for 

1024
01:09:49,319 --> 01:09:53,240
psychiatry is obviously an 
illusion something an imagined 

1025
01:09:53,240 --> 01:09:58,480
thing but for them it's real and
it seems real, you know and 

1026
01:09:58,480 --> 01:10:00,920
those things can't be easily 
explained away. 

1027
01:10:01,720 --> 01:10:07,200
But you you see it with for 
instance the the those convents.

1028
01:10:07,200 --> 01:10:10,680
There's been a couple of 
convents where the whole all of 

1029
01:10:10,680 --> 01:10:15,400
the nuns go into this frenzy and
are are seeing the devil and and

1030
01:10:15,400 --> 01:10:19,280
desecrating the the temple, you 
know, and they all go through it

1031
01:10:19,280 --> 01:10:24,080
at once, all because one person 
starts doing that and it spreads

1032
01:10:24,080 --> 01:10:28,160
like crazy And you know, of 
course we can't, we can't just 

1033
01:10:28,160 --> 01:10:31,040
explain it away. 
It could be ergot poisoning, it 

1034
01:10:31,040 --> 01:10:36,520
could be any number of things. 
But those things do seem to 

1035
01:10:36,520 --> 01:10:42,480
happen spontaneously, without 
any real reason to find, you 

1036
01:10:42,480 --> 01:10:47,400
know, and I think that's why I 
said I doubt you and your father

1037
01:10:47,400 --> 01:10:49,840
were meditating. 
I'm sure you weren't out there 

1038
01:10:49,840 --> 01:10:52,520
tripping on acid with your dad, 
you know? 

1039
01:10:52,600 --> 01:10:55,840
So to see something, to be able 
to be in what feels like 

1040
01:10:55,840 --> 01:11:02,400
baseline consciousness and then 
enter what Or see what you would

1041
01:11:02,400 --> 01:11:04,960
normally need to be in an 
altered state of consciousness 

1042
01:11:04,960 --> 01:11:08,800
to see it. 
Just it raises questions again 

1043
01:11:08,800 --> 01:11:12,120
about the the. 
Even if it was a perceptional 

1044
01:11:12,120 --> 01:11:15,560
thing, that what does that say 
about us, you know, that we can 

1045
01:11:15,560 --> 01:11:19,520
just get jacked off of seeing, 
you know, and I mean to you 

1046
01:11:19,520 --> 01:11:24,360
know, what it felt like too. 
For on some level is like seeing

1047
01:11:24,360 --> 01:11:27,680
like a picture of a like a scary
grey out of nowhere or like 

1048
01:11:27,680 --> 01:11:29,680
being in your room and seeing 
like a shadow and thinking, Oh 

1049
01:11:29,680 --> 01:11:31,560
my God, what was, you know, 
something like that. 

1050
01:11:31,560 --> 01:11:34,720
You know how you get that, like 
you're you're you're you're 

1051
01:11:34,720 --> 01:11:37,280
pumped up a little bit. 
That's kind of like what it was.

1052
01:11:37,400 --> 01:11:39,560
But that's after it. 
Though, right, Right. 

1053
01:11:39,560 --> 01:11:41,360
That's what I'm saying. 
So that's what I was. 

1054
01:11:41,560 --> 01:11:43,880
That's why I brought this up, 
'cause this is the only time 

1055
01:11:43,880 --> 01:11:46,160
I've ever had anything in 
day-to-day consciousness that 

1056
01:11:46,160 --> 01:11:48,120
was like that. 
Because all the other 

1057
01:11:48,680 --> 01:11:52,960
experiences that I've had were, 
whether, it's, you know, 

1058
01:11:52,960 --> 01:11:58,480
psychedelic or meditation or, 
you know, like we said, there's 

1059
01:11:58,480 --> 01:12:01,320
so many way lucid dreaming. 
There's so many ways to induce 

1060
01:12:01,320 --> 01:12:02,960
it. 
I've tried most of them at this 

1061
01:12:02,960 --> 01:12:04,240
point. 
Breathwork. 

1062
01:12:04,240 --> 01:12:09,520
I mean, you name it, dude, I did
it live. 

1063
01:12:10,200 --> 01:12:13,640
We had this guy Ben Holton, who 
runs these like, you know, they 

1064
01:12:13,640 --> 01:12:16,640
do like getaways and stuff or 
whatever you want to call them. 

1065
01:12:18,800 --> 01:12:25,360
And I did alkaline breathing on 
our Patreon and I was like fully

1066
01:12:25,360 --> 01:12:30,520
like geometric patterns coming 
at me just just from breathing, 

1067
01:12:30,520 --> 01:12:33,240
just from breathing. 
Just like deep 40 deep breaths 

1068
01:12:33,240 --> 01:12:36,200
in and out. 
And I was dude, I was jacked. 

1069
01:12:37,000 --> 01:12:42,000
I got on a kick with doing it 
was with just basic pranayama 

1070
01:12:42,400 --> 01:12:45,960
when I was get first getting 
into yoga about 20 years ago, a 

1071
01:12:45,960 --> 01:12:52,200
little over 20 years ago and I 
had just gotten on Adderall. 

1072
01:12:52,480 --> 01:12:57,040
I was taking Adderall for. 
I'm the most distractible person

1073
01:12:57,040 --> 01:12:59,600
on the planet and they're so 
they were trying me on Adderall 

1074
01:13:00,360 --> 01:13:04,120
and that stuff. 
I couldn't sleep in on it, you 

1075
01:13:04,120 --> 01:13:06,480
know, and and especially it 
being a new something. 

1076
01:13:06,480 --> 01:13:08,480
Out it's interesting and. 
It and it's. 

1077
01:13:08,720 --> 01:13:12,360
Given it's chemical composition 
that you couldn't fall asleep. 

1078
01:13:13,160 --> 01:13:14,520
I see. 
Yeah. 

1079
01:13:15,240 --> 01:13:19,800
That's curious but I I I had 
been awake for like 3 days, no 

1080
01:13:19,800 --> 01:13:22,760
joke and I I didn't have 
anything to do. 

1081
01:13:22,880 --> 01:13:26,120
I didn't know what to do with 
myself and and the only thing I 

1082
01:13:26,120 --> 01:13:28,200
was interested in at the time 
was yoga. 

1083
01:13:28,200 --> 01:13:35,040
So I sat there and sit asana and
did pranayama non-stop that 

1084
01:13:35,040 --> 01:13:40,600
whole time. 
And at some point it was like 

1085
01:13:40,600 --> 01:13:45,440
the physical sensation was like 
a tree limb snapped in my chest.

1086
01:13:46,400 --> 01:13:51,240
And as soon as that happened I 
felt my face get hot, like it 

1087
01:13:51,240 --> 01:13:54,000
was on fire. 
My ears got hot, my lips got 

1088
01:13:54,000 --> 01:13:56,440
hot, my nose I can feel my 
eyebrows. 

1089
01:13:56,440 --> 01:13:59,040
Everything had this heat coming 
off of it. 

1090
01:13:59,320 --> 01:14:04,920
And I went into this state of 
absolute ecstasy It. 

1091
01:14:04,920 --> 01:14:08,080
I've done a lot of drugs. 
There ain't a single thing I've 

1092
01:14:08,080 --> 01:14:12,040
ever taken that felt like this. 
And it lasted for just about as 

1093
01:14:12,040 --> 01:14:13,520
long as I've been doing it for, 
right? 

1094
01:14:13,520 --> 01:14:18,920
At 72 hours, I was walking 
around like like I was in 

1095
01:14:18,920 --> 01:14:21,680
fucking heaven or something. 
I mean, it was the most 

1096
01:14:21,680 --> 01:14:26,320
incredible experience of my 
whole life just from sitting 

1097
01:14:26,320 --> 01:14:32,360
there breathing, you know? 
Yeah, that's like my I'm trying 

1098
01:14:32,360 --> 01:14:35,120
to get back there now and work 
out since I've had my incident. 

1099
01:14:35,120 --> 01:14:38,000
But back in the day, I used to 
go to Lifetime Fitness. 

1100
01:14:38,000 --> 01:14:41,880
Like after I would go out and 
party downtown Chicago, and on 

1101
01:14:41,880 --> 01:14:44,360
the way back, because it's 24 
hours, I would go work out. 

1102
01:14:44,640 --> 01:14:46,920
Dude. 
I would, after I did a full 

1103
01:14:46,920 --> 01:14:50,280
workout, did like a steam, 
everything would, I'd walk out 

1104
01:14:50,280 --> 01:14:52,240
of there. 
Dude, you couldn't feel better 

1105
01:14:52,240 --> 01:14:55,360
than I felt, you know, having a 
great night on your belt and 

1106
01:14:55,360 --> 01:14:57,600
then getting feeling great 
knowing you're just going to go 

1107
01:14:57,600 --> 01:14:59,600
home and pass out. 
Like there's no better feeling 

1108
01:14:59,600 --> 01:15:02,360
than that in the world. 
And and all of that it's worth 

1109
01:15:02,360 --> 01:15:07,000
saying all of that was sacred 
back in the day you when you 

1110
01:15:07,000 --> 01:15:10,840
read about the therapeutic where
we get our word therapy from you

1111
01:15:10,840 --> 01:15:15,080
know all of these deep tissue 
muscle massages soaking in a 

1112
01:15:15,080 --> 01:15:18,080
sauna. 
You know these were religious 

1113
01:15:18,080 --> 01:15:22,280
practices couple thousand years 
ago. 

1114
01:15:22,280 --> 01:15:26,520
You know, our modern condition, 
we we can't get a hold of 

1115
01:15:26,520 --> 01:15:32,640
anything sacred without turning 
it into a a treatment, a therapy

1116
01:15:32,640 --> 01:15:34,640
kind of, you know, and it 
doesn't. 

1117
01:15:34,760 --> 01:15:38,560
I don't think it detracts from 
its effectiveness, but I think 

1118
01:15:38,560 --> 01:15:41,360
it's it's interesting to 
consider how these things were 

1119
01:15:41,360 --> 01:15:45,480
once religious practices. 
You know, It's no wonder they 

1120
01:15:45,480 --> 01:15:48,240
well. 
We're so distracted. 

1121
01:15:48,680 --> 01:15:50,840
Look at all the the stuff we've 
got around us. 

1122
01:15:50,840 --> 01:15:55,800
We've got gadgets and toys and 
phones and you know, that's the 

1123
01:15:55,800 --> 01:15:57,960
other thing is how much 
knowledge do we have now 

1124
01:15:57,960 --> 01:16:00,880
compared with a lot more? 
But doesn't mean we're applying 

1125
01:16:00,880 --> 01:16:04,080
it to anything for most people, 
you know, like, so like, that's 

1126
01:16:04,080 --> 01:16:06,360
the problem. 
I feel like back then you kind 

1127
01:16:06,360 --> 01:16:09,200
of had to apply what you knew 
and now you don't. 

1128
01:16:09,200 --> 01:16:11,760
You can just know a ton of shit 
and not do anything about it. 

1129
01:16:11,800 --> 01:16:14,680
That's the difference and and 
knowledge and and wisdom. 

1130
01:16:15,360 --> 01:16:19,040
You know you you can. 
You can know everything in the 

1131
01:16:19,040 --> 01:16:22,440
world about mountain climbing. 
Read every book on mountain 

1132
01:16:22,440 --> 01:16:24,240
climbing. 
But until you're on that 

1133
01:16:24,240 --> 01:16:28,800
mountain with your knuckles 
white frozen to the rock, trying

1134
01:16:28,800 --> 01:16:32,440
not to fall off, you don't know 
shit about mountain climbing. 

1135
01:16:32,560 --> 01:16:35,760
You know. 
It's like, have you ever heard 

1136
01:16:35,760 --> 01:16:41,960
that young story? 
I think it's from modern man's 

1137
01:16:41,960 --> 01:16:45,000
search for a God maybe or no? 
Is that what it is? 

1138
01:16:45,000 --> 01:16:47,240
Let me see if I. 
Search for a soul. 

1139
01:16:47,840 --> 01:16:49,080
Oh yeah, modern man, search for 
soul. 

1140
01:16:49,080 --> 01:16:51,160
I think that's what it is. 
Let me see if I can pull it up 

1141
01:16:51,160 --> 01:16:58,640
on my thing. 
But, you know, in terms of 

1142
01:16:59,520 --> 01:17:04,240
there's a story where, yeah, 
it's it's a modern man's in 

1143
01:17:04,240 --> 01:17:10,200
search of a soul. 
So the story goes young. 

1144
01:17:10,280 --> 01:17:12,520
Obviously in a large part of 
this book he's talking about 

1145
01:17:12,520 --> 01:17:20,560
dream analysis and this person 
who's a a mountain climber, this

1146
01:17:20,560 --> 01:17:25,800
guy keeps having these dreams 
that he, you know, is gonna die 

1147
01:17:25,800 --> 01:17:31,320
up there alone on the mountain. 
So he has a couple close calls 

1148
01:17:32,040 --> 01:17:35,160
and then, you know, Young's 
like, well, just don't go up 

1149
01:17:35,160 --> 01:17:37,640
alone, you know, always bring a 
partner with you and then you 

1150
01:17:37,640 --> 01:17:41,720
won't fulfill that aspect. 
And so he does that. 

1151
01:17:41,720 --> 01:17:44,240
He keeps going up and he goes up
with other people and 

1152
01:17:44,240 --> 01:17:47,120
everything's fine. 
And then one time nobody else 

1153
01:17:47,120 --> 01:17:52,080
can go and he goes by himself 
and he dies alone up there and 

1154
01:17:52,120 --> 01:17:57,400
as as he said in his dream. 
So that begs the question, did 

1155
01:17:57,400 --> 01:18:02,840
he realize that? 
Did he see it ahead of time and 

1156
01:18:02,840 --> 01:18:07,960
have some sort of precognition? 
Or did he succumb to the 

1157
01:18:07,960 --> 01:18:11,520
influence of the mind and it's 
just something that happened 

1158
01:18:11,520 --> 01:18:13,840
because of, you know, his 
awareness? 

1159
01:18:13,840 --> 01:18:16,240
I don't know. 
That's that's my question with 

1160
01:18:16,240 --> 01:18:20,880
all oracular processes is it is 
it predicting or is it 

1161
01:18:20,880 --> 01:18:24,800
programming, you know the the 
the event Young talk Young 

1162
01:18:24,800 --> 01:18:28,120
discusses a bunch of cases like 
that in different books of 

1163
01:18:28,720 --> 01:18:32,080
people come in and saying that 
they they're they've dreamt this

1164
01:18:32,080 --> 01:18:33,920
or they're terrified this is 
gonna happen. 

1165
01:18:34,360 --> 01:18:38,000
You know. 
And he always gives them that 

1166
01:18:38,000 --> 01:18:42,120
same kind of advice, you know, 
well don't do exactly what you 

1167
01:18:42,120 --> 01:18:46,320
saw there and it won't happen. 
But they always tend to. 

1168
01:18:46,400 --> 01:18:49,640
I'm doing it. 
Yeah, they do it. 

1169
01:18:51,120 --> 01:18:54,520
Crowley, Aleister Crowley. 
He was a famous mountain climber

1170
01:18:54,640 --> 01:18:59,120
at one time and there's actually
a death that is associated with 

1171
01:18:59,120 --> 01:19:03,680
his time as a mountain climber. 
Some people believe he he killed

1172
01:19:03,680 --> 01:19:06,920
the guy on this mountain. 
There's and there's evidence to 

1173
01:19:07,480 --> 01:19:11,360
to back that up that he he may 
have murdered somebody on a 

1174
01:19:11,400 --> 01:19:14,920
mountain. 
That's crazy. 

1175
01:19:17,560 --> 01:19:23,160
So is this, is this how do you 
think this ties into? 

1176
01:19:23,160 --> 01:19:27,080
We kind of mentioned it before, 
but how do you think this ties 

1177
01:19:27,080 --> 01:19:29,360
into like all your other 
research? 

1178
01:19:29,360 --> 01:19:34,160
Like, do you think because I 
mean, I'm just trying to think 

1179
01:19:34,160 --> 01:19:39,000
like in terms of obviously a lot
of your other stuff's been, you 

1180
01:19:39,000 --> 01:19:44,800
know, like masonry and symbolism
and more not medieval, but like 

1181
01:19:44,800 --> 01:19:49,760
more alchemy and esoteric and 
Hermeticism and stuff like that.

1182
01:19:50,200 --> 01:19:53,480
Do you think that these two 
things are tied together or do 

1183
01:19:53,480 --> 01:19:55,360
you think you're going to do 
something in the future on that 

1184
01:19:55,360 --> 01:19:58,600
in terms of like obviously 
because the reason why I ask you

1185
01:19:58,600 --> 01:20:00,400
because it's kind of what like 
shamanism. 

1186
01:20:00,920 --> 01:20:03,680
Basically is right I. 
Mean and that that's what my 

1187
01:20:04,000 --> 01:20:08,240
I've got a book that I've 
finished shortly after I 

1188
01:20:08,240 --> 01:20:12,280
completed the book on theurgy 
and it's on Native American 

1189
01:20:12,280 --> 01:20:15,560
shamanism in the Mississippi 
Valley and. 

1190
01:20:15,800 --> 01:20:21,840
Because that ancient theurgy is 
just like the Western version of

1191
01:20:22,880 --> 01:20:24,280
shamanism, right? 
Like that. 

1192
01:20:24,720 --> 01:20:28,480
Yes, Soul Flight. 
You know the the Axis Mundi 

1193
01:20:28,720 --> 01:20:30,200
going up or down. 
Obviously there's a lot of 

1194
01:20:30,200 --> 01:20:33,320
differences too, but that's kind
of it's all about divination. 

1195
01:20:33,320 --> 01:20:34,120
Yeah. 
Mm hmm. 

1196
01:20:35,200 --> 01:20:39,560
And and you know, we've talked 
about this before, when Greg and

1197
01:20:39,560 --> 01:20:46,400
I were on Greg Little after I 
wrote this book on theurgy, I I 

1198
01:20:46,400 --> 01:20:50,240
was in Yorkshire. 
I was speaking at the Tyranium 

1199
01:20:50,680 --> 01:20:55,440
initiative up there. 
And Graham Hancock and Dennis 

1200
01:20:55,440 --> 01:20:59,080
McKenna were standing nearby 
having a conversation. 

1201
01:20:59,080 --> 01:21:02,960
And I was standing there with 
Brian Murarescu, who wrote the 

1202
01:21:02,960 --> 01:21:06,480
Immortality Key. 
And I was telling him about my 

1203
01:21:06,720 --> 01:21:10,080
book on theurgy and what the 
theme, what it was about about 

1204
01:21:10,080 --> 01:21:18,480
this soul flight idea. 
And Graham and Dennis both kind 

1205
01:21:18,480 --> 01:21:21,360
of turned around and were like 
listening to our conversation 

1206
01:21:22,320 --> 01:21:25,840
and one of them interrupted us 
and said, are you oh, you're 

1207
01:21:25,840 --> 01:21:29,920
talking about the Path of Souls.
And I said, I don't, I don't 

1208
01:21:29,920 --> 01:21:32,040
know what that is, What it what 
are you talking about? 

1209
01:21:32,040 --> 01:21:36,800
And he said, well, everything 
you just said is what happens in

1210
01:21:36,800 --> 01:21:39,400
this Path of souls. 
He said, you need to go research

1211
01:21:39,400 --> 01:21:43,480
the Path of Souls. 
So the first thing I did when we

1212
01:21:43,480 --> 01:21:46,480
left the tearing room Initiative
was get on the phone and look up

1213
01:21:46,480 --> 01:21:49,360
Path of Souls. 
And that led me to Greg Little's

1214
01:21:49,360 --> 01:21:52,400
book and by the time I got back 
to Mississippi. 

1215
01:21:52,400 --> 01:21:54,840
The book was. 
Waiting on me and I read it and 

1216
01:21:54,840 --> 01:21:59,800
I was astounded that they're 
describing the exact same thing.

1217
01:21:59,800 --> 01:22:03,160
Something we didn't get into 
with the orgy thing is that once

1218
01:22:03,160 --> 01:22:06,320
the soul can get out of its out 
of the body, there are these two

1219
01:22:06,320 --> 01:22:11,160
gates in the skies at certain 
constellations and the soul 

1220
01:22:11,160 --> 01:22:16,200
enters these gates and it leads 
them to the Milky Way and it's 

1221
01:22:16,200 --> 01:22:19,400
in the Milky Way where souls 
that are dead. 

1222
01:22:19,400 --> 01:22:23,640
Tibetan Book of the Dead. 
Very similar or souls that are 

1223
01:22:23,640 --> 01:22:26,200
either dead or people who 
haven't been incarnated yet 

1224
01:22:26,480 --> 01:22:29,080
constantly circle in this Milky 
Way orbit. 

1225
01:22:29,560 --> 01:22:35,360
Here and in the Native American 
model, which is for them 

1226
01:22:35,360 --> 01:22:39,880
primarily an after death model, 
but it's the same. 

1227
01:22:39,880 --> 01:22:42,600
There's the gates are in the two
same places. 

1228
01:22:42,920 --> 01:22:47,320
They lead onto the Milky Way 
which is the technically the 

1229
01:22:47,320 --> 01:22:50,520
path of souls. 
And that's where they don't just

1230
01:22:50,520 --> 01:22:53,920
orbit forever. 
But it still is so 

1231
01:22:53,920 --> 01:22:59,840
overwhelmingly similar that I I 
dove in my head first. 

1232
01:22:59,840 --> 01:23:01,320
You know, I thought, this is 
incredible. 

1233
01:23:01,320 --> 01:23:06,280
How, how is this same model 
showing up in on the Mississippi

1234
01:23:06,280 --> 01:23:09,160
River Valley? 
And it was going on in ancient 

1235
01:23:09,200 --> 01:23:12,880
Greece, you know, and I still 
have trouble wrapping my head 

1236
01:23:12,880 --> 01:23:14,760
around that. 
But. 

1237
01:23:15,160 --> 01:23:21,160
But yeah, so I wrote a book on 
this topic as well with and and 

1238
01:23:21,160 --> 01:23:24,280
made some revelations. 
We've talked about my Mesawaska 

1239
01:23:24,280 --> 01:23:30,040
hypothesis that it really makes 
a lot of sense of a lot of what 

1240
01:23:30,040 --> 01:23:32,800
they're describing and based on 
these, the use of these 

1241
01:23:32,800 --> 01:23:35,600
entheogens. 
Within the Native American. 

1242
01:23:35,600 --> 01:23:39,320
Traditions. 
But that being said, this book 

1243
01:23:39,320 --> 01:23:42,800
that I have coming out on this 
phenomenon in the Mississippi 

1244
01:23:42,800 --> 01:23:47,880
Valley, it is the same as what 
I'm describing in the theology 

1245
01:23:47,880 --> 01:23:50,400
book. 
And what they're doing, I 

1246
01:23:50,400 --> 01:23:53,760
believe is the same as what was 
happening with alchemy. 

1247
01:23:54,080 --> 01:23:57,440
With alchemy, they're putting 
the these plants through these 

1248
01:23:57,440 --> 01:24:01,200
processes, but it's ultimately 
to ingest them, to take them and

1249
01:24:01,200 --> 01:24:03,600
give them these, it's. 
Out of body. 

1250
01:24:03,600 --> 01:24:06,840
Experience to separate the soul 
from the body, the subtle from 

1251
01:24:06,840 --> 01:24:08,400
the gross, as they would say 
you. 

1252
01:24:08,760 --> 01:24:11,600
Don't have to tell me, bro. 
That's what mind escape is. 

1253
01:24:12,160 --> 01:24:14,560
Yeah, yeah, y'all do a great job
too. 

1254
01:24:14,560 --> 01:24:17,720
Well, no, I mean that's what the
the title is was if you. 

1255
01:24:17,760 --> 01:24:20,160
Can get I know. 
If you can get outside of your 

1256
01:24:20,160 --> 01:24:21,880
own mind, you can kind of figure
out what. 

1257
01:24:21,880 --> 01:24:23,680
That's the only way to see 
what's going on. 

1258
01:24:24,040 --> 01:24:25,560
I got news for everybody. 
You ain't figuring out 

1259
01:24:25,560 --> 01:24:28,440
consciousness until you get 
outside your own mind. 

1260
01:24:28,760 --> 01:24:32,280
So if that's right, good luck, 
Good luck. 

1261
01:24:32,680 --> 01:24:34,760
But that's what we try and do 
here, you know? 

1262
01:24:34,760 --> 01:24:36,600
They do think it's all the same,
I think. 

1263
01:24:37,240 --> 01:24:41,080
I don't think my research is 
changing. 

1264
01:24:41,080 --> 01:24:44,080
I think I'm just keep taking 
another step back and another 

1265
01:24:44,080 --> 01:24:49,200
step back of what is this 
phenomenon that that I'm really 

1266
01:24:50,000 --> 01:24:53,760
just fascinated with getting out
of your own way transcending 

1267
01:24:53,760 --> 01:25:00,600
your limitations and and of 
course death is hopefully a long

1268
01:25:00,600 --> 01:25:03,160
way away you know. 
So I won't have first hand 

1269
01:25:03,160 --> 01:25:06,960
knowledge and for a hopefully a 
long time but when I do it's not

1270
01:25:06,960 --> 01:25:08,360
like I can come back. 
I just. 

1271
01:25:08,520 --> 01:25:11,280
I just met up with that bastard 
a couple months ago and let me 

1272
01:25:11,280 --> 01:25:14,280
tell you, I ain't ready. 
Either. 

1273
01:25:14,920 --> 01:25:18,720
I ain't ready either, but no. 
So actually, if if anybody 

1274
01:25:18,720 --> 01:25:23,360
listening hasn't checked out, go
check out our last episode I did

1275
01:25:23,360 --> 01:25:29,280
with PD and Doctor Greg Little. 
It's on our YouTube channel and 

1276
01:25:29,280 --> 01:25:33,360
all the podcast platforms there 
is slides with it too. 

1277
01:25:33,360 --> 01:25:37,040
So I recommend either watching 
it on YouTube or Spotify. 

1278
01:25:38,640 --> 01:25:42,880
And yeah, it's a it's a it's an 
excellent episode and PD walks 

1279
01:25:42,880 --> 01:25:47,160
us through Missawaska and the 
Yao Pan and the Black drink and 

1280
01:25:47,160 --> 01:25:50,680
all that kind of stuff. 
So very, very excellent. 

1281
01:25:51,960 --> 01:25:54,360
As well as we've done a million 
now, I think you've been our 

1282
01:25:54,360 --> 01:25:58,640
most, you might have been, you 
might have been our top guest 

1283
01:25:58,640 --> 01:26:00,680
now. 
I think you're 8 appearances. 

1284
01:26:00,680 --> 01:26:02,080
Maybe I don't even know how 
many. 

1285
01:26:02,080 --> 01:26:04,800
Do I get a prize? 
You do get a prize. 

1286
01:26:04,800 --> 01:26:07,680
Like I said, you can continue to
Co host this thing that we were 

1287
01:26:07,680 --> 01:26:10,520
doing, the Psychedelic Gnosis 
series. 

1288
01:26:10,520 --> 01:26:12,280
We got to continue that here 
too. 

1289
01:26:12,280 --> 01:26:13,920
Yeah, let's do it. 
Schedule. 

1290
01:26:15,800 --> 01:26:17,800
But yeah, no, man. 
I mean, honestly, I love this 

1291
01:26:17,800 --> 01:26:20,320
book. 
I love when you're on. 

1292
01:26:20,320 --> 01:26:22,880
I always learn new stuff and I 
like nerding out with you. 

1293
01:26:24,480 --> 01:26:29,000
And yeah, I'm looking forward to
the shamanism one and all the 

1294
01:26:29,000 --> 01:26:31,360
stuff you're, you know, I know 
you, you like, you said you were

1295
01:26:31,360 --> 01:26:35,400
in contact with Greg and you 
know, we when we had you on 

1296
01:26:35,400 --> 01:26:40,280
before, it sounded like you had 
a, you know, a a real good grasp

1297
01:26:40,280 --> 01:26:44,120
on everything. 
So I'm looking forward to that 

1298
01:26:44,120 --> 01:26:51,640
and future projects and yeah, 
man, I mean New Year, you know, 

1299
01:26:51,640 --> 01:26:54,200
I think for Mind Escape here, 
we're just gonna keep doing what

1300
01:26:54,200 --> 01:26:58,200
we're doing. 
Some minor changes and I might 

1301
01:26:58,200 --> 01:27:03,680
be a little bit more fickle with
who I have on, but that doesn't 

1302
01:27:03,680 --> 01:27:04,760
mean that we're not gonna have 
fun. 

1303
01:27:04,760 --> 01:27:07,760
It doesn't mean we're not gonna 
explore all the, you know, the 

1304
01:27:07,760 --> 01:27:10,280
usual topics that we normally 
do. 

1305
01:27:12,320 --> 01:27:15,000
You know, I'm going a more 
positive route this year. 

1306
01:27:15,040 --> 01:27:17,960
I feel like last year I kind of 
did a little bit of, you know, 

1307
01:27:17,960 --> 01:27:21,680
piling on and shitting on people
and just aggravated with the 

1308
01:27:21,680 --> 01:27:22,920
world. 
I think this year I'm going 

1309
01:27:22,920 --> 01:27:25,440
positive. 
I'm gonna, you know, I'm just, 

1310
01:27:26,080 --> 01:27:28,680
I've had a rough year. 
Obviously I almost died. 

1311
01:27:29,480 --> 01:27:32,040
Watched the near death 
experience a few episodes ago. 

1312
01:27:32,040 --> 01:27:36,880
If you don't know what happened,
you know there was no theurgy 

1313
01:27:36,880 --> 01:27:42,000
happening there. 
But yeah, I don't know. 

1314
01:27:42,000 --> 01:27:45,960
Let's just let's keep doing what
we're doing here and we'll have 

1315
01:27:45,960 --> 01:27:48,160
PD back on soon. 
When does your shamanism book 

1316
01:27:48,160 --> 01:27:48,960
come out? 
Do you know? 

1317
01:27:49,920 --> 01:27:54,120
They just finished editing it so
I I'll have a an official 

1318
01:27:54,120 --> 01:27:56,320
publication date. 
In the Is that one coming 

1319
01:27:56,320 --> 01:27:57,880
through inner traditions as 
well? 

1320
01:27:58,560 --> 01:27:59,800
Yep. 
OK, cool. 

1321
01:28:00,280 --> 01:28:04,640
And yeah, so check out this bad 
boy. 

1322
01:28:07,000 --> 01:28:11,520
It's nice card cover. 
Thicky they. 

1323
01:28:11,600 --> 01:28:14,200
Did a great job with cover. 
Yeah, absolutely. 

1324
01:28:14,200 --> 01:28:15,760
Yeah. 
Inner Traditions does an amazing

1325
01:28:15,760 --> 01:28:18,400
job in bearing company, I 
believe. 

1326
01:28:18,760 --> 01:28:25,440
But yeah, no, I I'm really 
looking forward to this year and

1327
01:28:25,880 --> 01:28:29,760
lots of cool guests coming up. 
And yeah, just you're obviously 

1328
01:28:29,760 --> 01:28:32,040
going to be coming on a lot. 
We'll talk about psychedelic 

1329
01:28:32,040 --> 01:28:35,040
stuff next time. 
I know people probably that's 

1330
01:28:35,040 --> 01:28:38,480
what they really want to hear. 
But the Urgy, this was 

1331
01:28:38,480 --> 01:28:40,920
interesting, man. 
Like I said, I think there's a 

1332
01:28:40,920 --> 01:28:43,280
nerdy component to what we just 
talked about. 

1333
01:28:43,280 --> 01:28:47,720
But I think it's important to 
understand the origins of 

1334
01:28:47,720 --> 01:28:49,520
things, and I don't think enough
people do. 

1335
01:28:49,520 --> 01:28:50,600
I think you would agree with 
that. 

1336
01:28:50,600 --> 01:28:54,840
Like when I learn something new,
I immediately go into how did 

1337
01:28:54,840 --> 01:28:57,240
this come to be? 
You know, like, what's the 

1338
01:28:57,240 --> 01:28:59,600
origin of this thing? 
And then I can figure out, is 

1339
01:28:59,600 --> 01:29:01,200
this bullshit, is this worth my 
time? 

1340
01:29:01,200 --> 01:29:05,120
Is this you know, whatever. 
So. 

1341
01:29:05,880 --> 01:29:10,480
And the the way we experience 
the world, I mean, we take a lot

1342
01:29:10,480 --> 01:29:14,480
of it for granted. 
We don't realize how many Giants

1343
01:29:14,480 --> 01:29:19,040
shoulders we're standing on. 
You know, and it's been said 

1344
01:29:19,040 --> 01:29:25,080
that everything following Plato 
was basically commentary on 

1345
01:29:25,080 --> 01:29:28,320
Plato, whether they agreed with 
it or disagreed with it, it 

1346
01:29:28,320 --> 01:29:31,680
changed everything. 
So it is worth knowing and it 

1347
01:29:31,680 --> 01:29:35,560
does give some insight into our 
current predicament, especially 

1348
01:29:35,560 --> 01:29:41,320
in regard to Christian religion.
You know, what is that and how 

1349
01:29:41,320 --> 01:29:44,280
did that happen and what it what
should it really be? 

1350
01:29:44,320 --> 01:29:47,920
You know, we, whether we like it
or not, we do live in a very 

1351
01:29:48,240 --> 01:29:53,440
Christianized world now. 
And just for that reason alone, 

1352
01:29:53,440 --> 01:29:58,040
I think Plato is is worth an an 
hour or two, Yeah. 

1353
01:29:59,120 --> 01:30:03,120
Yeah, well, again, my favorite 
is Euthydemus. 

1354
01:30:03,440 --> 01:30:08,080
Talks about aristic rhetoric. 
And if you read that dialogue, 

1355
01:30:08,080 --> 01:30:10,160
you're like, this is what's 
happening on the Internet right 

1356
01:30:10,160 --> 01:30:12,600
now. 
This is exactly what's happening

1357
01:30:12,600 --> 01:30:15,400
on the Internet right now. 
And it's frustrating, 'cause 

1358
01:30:15,400 --> 01:30:19,440
it's like this old motherfucker 
knew what was going on so far 

1359
01:30:19,440 --> 01:30:23,680
back then, you know? 
So I don't know, it's just 

1360
01:30:23,680 --> 01:30:25,640
frustrating. 
But yeah, Go Euthademus is a 

1361
01:30:25,640 --> 01:30:27,040
great one in my I mean, there's 
so many. 

1362
01:30:27,400 --> 01:30:29,640
Obviously The Republic. 
Probably one of the most well 

1363
01:30:29,640 --> 01:30:34,520
written, you know, pieces of 
literature maybe ever. 

1364
01:30:37,560 --> 01:30:40,120
Yeah, there's. 
I mean the Timaeus if if you. 

1365
01:30:40,120 --> 01:30:43,480
Like, it's a good good place to 
start if you're not familiar. 

1366
01:30:43,640 --> 01:30:46,360
Is the Euthyphrus. 
Yeah, Euthyphro. 

1367
01:30:47,680 --> 01:30:50,000
Oh, Phaedrus. 
That's like, more. 

1368
01:30:50,000 --> 01:30:53,040
He has a couple quotes, even one
for maybe the Lucidian mysteries

1369
01:30:53,040 --> 01:30:58,480
in there, Yeah? 
The Symposium. 

1370
01:30:58,800 --> 01:31:01,680
Symposium about love. 
Lucidian mysteries is the real 

1371
01:31:01,680 --> 01:31:06,760
theme that there's a there's a 
great dialogue, a great speech 

1372
01:31:06,760 --> 01:31:11,520
in there given by Socrates, but 
he's parroting Deotima, who is a

1373
01:31:11,520 --> 01:31:13,280
priestess at the Eleusinian 
mysteries. 

1374
01:31:13,280 --> 01:31:18,240
So you get kind of an inside 
picture of what kind of lectures

1375
01:31:18,240 --> 01:31:21,800
were given in those halls. 
You've got that, You know, 

1376
01:31:21,800 --> 01:31:25,160
there's so many Meno. 
If you want to learn about 

1377
01:31:25,160 --> 01:31:32,680
virtue and get frustrated, Yeah,
I mean and look, people wanna 

1378
01:31:32,680 --> 01:31:34,720
take, you know, with the Atlanta
stuff. 

1379
01:31:34,720 --> 01:31:37,440
And some people wanna take this 
stuff word for word and they 

1380
01:31:37,440 --> 01:31:39,600
say, Oh well, Plato never made 
stuff. 

1381
01:31:39,600 --> 01:31:42,120
Well, everything is made-up in 
the dialogues. 

1382
01:31:42,120 --> 01:31:47,200
Literally everything. 
Because, I mean, you have to 

1383
01:31:47,200 --> 01:31:50,320
read them, but it's all Socrates
talking to people that didn't 

1384
01:31:50,320 --> 01:31:51,840
even live at the same time as 
him. 

1385
01:31:51,840 --> 01:31:55,360
So how is that even possible? 
And was Plato there to take 

1386
01:31:55,360 --> 01:31:58,320
notes, you know, during these 
dinner parties and all these 

1387
01:31:58,320 --> 01:31:59,600
things that happened? 
No. 

1388
01:31:59,760 --> 01:32:04,240
Like, it's just this dude was 
just a master at writing and 

1389
01:32:04,240 --> 01:32:06,960
understood philosophy. 
And yeah. 

1390
01:32:07,320 --> 01:32:11,760
He the dialogue form allows him 
to not argue one point. 

1391
01:32:12,480 --> 01:32:15,760
He he's able to put the opposite
argument in somebody else's 

1392
01:32:15,760 --> 01:32:20,680
mouth. 
And I I I have yet to meet a 

1393
01:32:20,680 --> 01:32:27,040
person that whose position on 
the matter wasn't addressed by 

1394
01:32:27,040 --> 01:32:28,680
one of the people arguing in 
there. 

1395
01:32:28,680 --> 01:32:33,200
So it's a really great way to 
cover a lot of ground on a topic

1396
01:32:33,520 --> 01:32:38,040
and get it from multiple angles.
Yeah, that's really Plato's 

1397
01:32:38,040 --> 01:32:40,040
brilliant. 
So you're you're getting it. 

1398
01:32:40,160 --> 01:32:43,000
It's like you can hold the 
problem and turn it and look at 

1399
01:32:43,000 --> 01:32:46,000
it from every side. 
Yeah. 

1400
01:32:46,000 --> 01:32:49,440
And we keep saying, you know, 
we've been talking about 

1401
01:32:49,440 --> 01:32:53,560
Neoplatonism, and that's part of
the, you know, bottom part of 

1402
01:32:53,560 --> 01:32:55,920
the title of his book. 
That's actually like an 18th 

1403
01:32:55,920 --> 01:32:59,080
century word too. 
So don't if you're looking up 

1404
01:32:59,080 --> 01:33:01,440
stuff, I would actually look up 
the people that we were talking 

1405
01:33:01,440 --> 01:33:05,720
about. 
Platinus, Porphyry, Iambicus, 

1406
01:33:07,280 --> 01:33:08,800
Plato. 
You know, I would look these 

1407
01:33:08,800 --> 01:33:12,480
people up directly and not look 
up just the topic because again,

1408
01:33:12,800 --> 01:33:17,040
you want to get to the origins 
and not necessarily the final 

1409
01:33:17,040 --> 01:33:19,800
product, so. 
But. 

1410
01:33:20,240 --> 01:33:23,240
Yawn Book is. 
His book Day Mysterious, I think

1411
01:33:23,240 --> 01:33:26,520
is probably the best 
introduction to this mode of 

1412
01:33:26,520 --> 01:33:29,360
thought. 
And it's it's it's a hard read, 

1413
01:33:29,920 --> 01:33:35,360
but it's comprehensive. 
And if if you can understand one

1414
01:33:35,360 --> 01:33:40,120
paragraph and walk away, chew on
that for a day or for a week, 

1415
01:33:40,120 --> 01:33:42,120
you know, and come back, The 
time is going to pass, 

1416
01:33:42,120 --> 01:33:43,880
regardless whether you read it 
or not. 

1417
01:33:44,480 --> 01:33:48,880
But a paragraph, even a sentence
a day, is progress with this 

1418
01:33:48,880 --> 01:33:55,240
stuff because it's dense. 
Dense as hell, you know, But de 

1419
01:33:55,240 --> 01:33:58,160
mysterious Yombukis. 
And anytime you're reading 

1420
01:33:58,160 --> 01:34:01,800
something that's translated from
Greek or Latin or, it's almost 

1421
01:34:02,120 --> 01:34:04,400
better to. 
And I've learned this from 

1422
01:34:04,680 --> 01:34:09,000
listening to professors and 
stuff too, to read multiple 

1423
01:34:09,000 --> 01:34:10,840
translations. 
Or if you're in like a book 

1424
01:34:10,840 --> 01:34:13,760
club, have two different people 
read two different translations,

1425
01:34:13,760 --> 01:34:17,400
say, maybe you come to some sort
of difference, or you come to 

1426
01:34:17,400 --> 01:34:21,040
some sort of under even 
understanding of a common word 

1427
01:34:21,040 --> 01:34:24,160
between the two or a common 
phrase or something like that. 

1428
01:34:24,160 --> 01:34:28,080
So that's a good way at truth 
too, because everything is kind 

1429
01:34:28,080 --> 01:34:30,920
of like a game of telephone and 
languages and time and 

1430
01:34:30,920 --> 01:34:33,640
everything so. 
That's a great point, Yeah. 

1431
01:34:35,000 --> 01:34:36,840
But yeah man, is there anything 
else you want to add before we 

1432
01:34:36,840 --> 01:34:41,600
wrap it up here? 
No, You know, if you want to 

1433
01:34:41,600 --> 01:34:45,880
keep up with my, my research, 
I'm PD Newman on all my 

1434
01:34:45,880 --> 01:34:48,640
platforms. 
My book on the. 

1435
01:34:48,640 --> 01:34:53,240
RG was released December 5th 
with inner traditions, and it's 

1436
01:34:53,240 --> 01:34:55,520
doing really well. 
I'm getting a lot of positive 

1437
01:34:55,520 --> 01:35:01,320
feedback and I should have in 
the next few months my book on 

1438
01:35:01,320 --> 01:35:04,120
Native American shamanism and 
the afterlife journey in the 

1439
01:35:04,120 --> 01:35:06,240
Mississippi Valley. 
I don't know what the title will

1440
01:35:06,240 --> 01:35:08,560
be, but that's what it's going 
to be about and. 

1441
01:35:09,160 --> 01:35:11,800
Your titles are all super long. 
That is going to be the title. 

1442
01:35:12,280 --> 01:35:15,480
It probably will be, but I think
that'll probably be my most 

1443
01:35:15,480 --> 01:35:18,920
accessible work. 
You know, the theory is, 

1444
01:35:18,920 --> 01:35:23,360
admittedly, there's a small 
demographic of people already 

1445
01:35:23,360 --> 01:35:27,160
interested in that. 
But Native American shamanism? 

1446
01:35:27,160 --> 01:35:31,520
I think a lot more people will 
be able to get into this realm 

1447
01:35:31,520 --> 01:35:36,080
of thought through this book a 
lot easier than some of my 

1448
01:35:36,240 --> 01:35:38,720
previous efforts. 
Well, no, man. 

1449
01:35:38,720 --> 01:35:40,080
You got to write what you're 
passionate about. 

1450
01:35:40,080 --> 01:35:42,880
If you were interested in 
theater, had to get it out you, 

1451
01:35:42,880 --> 01:35:44,640
that's what. 
That's that's why. 

1452
01:35:44,640 --> 01:35:46,600
Those are the books I love 
reading, 'cause I can tell 

1453
01:35:46,600 --> 01:35:50,120
whoever wrote it like totally 
nerded out figuring this thing 

1454
01:35:50,120 --> 01:35:51,960
out. 
Or and I read mostly non 

1455
01:35:51,960 --> 01:35:54,880
fiction, so it's kind of easy to
tell who's done their homework 

1456
01:35:54,880 --> 01:35:56,560
and not. 
But yeah, I love reading your 

1457
01:35:56,560 --> 01:35:59,280
books because I know you've just
done the deepest dive into this 

1458
01:35:59,280 --> 01:36:01,920
stuff. 
And I see, I see all the books 

1459
01:36:01,920 --> 01:36:04,680
that you've read that you're 
posting to sell to buy new books

1460
01:36:04,680 --> 01:36:07,640
for the next topic or category. 
So it follows. 

1461
01:36:08,400 --> 01:36:11,320
If you're into all the stuff 
too, follow PD because he will 

1462
01:36:11,320 --> 01:36:14,280
post his books for sale and 
they're usually great books at a

1463
01:36:14,280 --> 01:36:16,600
great price. 
So that's right. 

1464
01:36:17,040 --> 01:36:21,560
But yeah, if you want to buy his
current book Fear G, go down all

1465
01:36:21,560 --> 01:36:23,440
the way to the bottom. 
I have two links, One of the 

1466
01:36:23,440 --> 01:36:26,400
inner traditions, Support Inner 
Traditions, and then one for 

1467
01:36:26,400 --> 01:36:31,600
Amazon If you know you can't do 
anything and that's it. 

1468
01:36:33,360 --> 01:36:35,440
If you want to support Mind 
Escape, the best way to do is 

1469
01:36:35,440 --> 01:36:37,320
just to click the link tree link
down below. 

1470
01:36:37,320 --> 01:36:39,320
We've got merch. 
We've got oh, check out our 

1471
01:36:39,320 --> 01:36:44,240
documentary as within So Without
from UFOs to DMT PDS in it. 

1472
01:36:44,240 --> 01:36:47,160
We've got a lot of amazing 
people in it, minds and 

1473
01:36:47,160 --> 01:36:51,080
thinkers, and we put a lot of 
time into it. 

1474
01:36:51,320 --> 01:36:54,520
And yeah, we're probably gonna 
be working on a new project 

1475
01:36:54,520 --> 01:36:57,680
starting this year, and it might
have to do something with near 

1476
01:36:57,680 --> 01:36:59,480
death. 
Possibly. 

1477
01:37:01,440 --> 01:37:07,600
So look for possibly that, but 
yeah again, best way to support 

1478
01:37:07,600 --> 01:37:09,000
Mindscape. 
Just click the link tree link 

1479
01:37:09,000 --> 01:37:12,000
down below. 
We do our shows live on YouTube 

1480
01:37:12,000 --> 01:37:15,720
and then we also have video 
podcasts up on Spotify, and 

1481
01:37:15,720 --> 01:37:18,320
other than that we are on all 
audio platforms. 

1482
01:37:20,160 --> 01:37:22,000
And yeah, I can't really think 
of anything else. 

1483
01:37:22,000 --> 01:37:25,520
So we're gonna wrap it up here. 
On the way out I will play our 

1484
01:37:25,520 --> 01:37:29,640
new outro. 
And yeah, let me know what you 

1485
01:37:29,640 --> 01:37:33,400
think of the new intro song. 
If you like it, you don't like 

1486
01:37:33,400 --> 01:37:37,160
it, Don't send me anything. 
If you don't like it, but if you

1487
01:37:37,160 --> 01:37:39,360
like it, send me. 
Send me something. 

1488
01:37:40,240 --> 01:37:42,920
No, but seriously, I I put a lot
of time into it. 

1489
01:37:42,920 --> 01:37:44,680
That's all me. 
That's me playing the guitar. 

1490
01:37:44,680 --> 01:37:47,880
That's me playing the piano. 
That's me playing, you know, 

1491
01:37:47,960 --> 01:37:50,920
using the MIDI controller to 
create the drum tracks and the 

1492
01:37:51,000 --> 01:37:55,040
horns and everything. 
So that's it. 

1493
01:37:55,160 --> 01:37:58,600
We love everybody. 
Stay safe out there and we'll 

1494
01:37:58,600 --> 01:38:00,280
catch you next time. 
Peace. 

1495
01:38:00,280 --> 01:38:02,480
Thank you. 
The.