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Welcome back to Mikey Morris's 
Mind Escape. 

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Let us help you escape your 
mind. 

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All right, folks, Welcome back 
to Mike Maurice's Mind Escape. 

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We have episode #292. 
Tonight, we have a very special 

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episode Here, let me just tell 
you something. 

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Two friends of the show, 2 
amazing researchers. 

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This is going to be an amazing, 
amazing show, and I'm. 

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I'm going to hype it up. 
Put a little pressure on them. 

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Make sure they get their 
thinking caps on now. 

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This is going to be awesome. 
We have special guest Doctor 

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Gregory Little coming back on 
tonight and we also have PD 

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Newman back on. 
Both are very well versed in 

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Native American culture and 
metaphysics and as well as we're

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going to get into some 
compounds. 

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And I aptly named the title of 
this episode Mounds and 

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Compounds. 
So that's what we're going to be

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discussing here tonight and it's
going to be awesome. 

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So before we get started, if you
don't know who Doctor Greg is, 

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you can check out all of his 
books. 

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I mean, he's got a ton of them 
out there. 

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I don't even know, probably over
20, maybe even over 30. 

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We don't know, maybe even more 
than that. 

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Some people say it's it's gets 
lost in translation sometimes, 

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but no. 
But I have the link down to at 

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the bottom. 
If you go all the way to the 

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bottom you, you'll see PD's 
links. 

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But in right above that you'll 
see Doctor Greg's links to all 

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of his Amazon Books or books, I 
should say, on Amazon. 

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And if you're looking for a book
on mounds, he has basically what

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I would call the best, the best 
resource for Native American 

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mounds and earthworks, which is 
the illustrated encyclopedia of 

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Native American mounds and 
earthworks. 

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So go check that out. 
Hard copy and yeah, we've had 

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him on to discuss everything 
from UFO's to Atlantis to Edgar 

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Casey in the past, and you can 
find all those episodes below. 

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There's a link. 
Now let's move on to PDPD's. 

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Been a guest on the show 
regularly, and he is an author 

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as well. 
You might have heard of his book

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Alchemically Stoned or is newer 
1 Angels in Vermilion and he? 

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I think he even has a new one 
coming out soon too. 

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But yeah, go check out his links
down below as well. 

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Check out his books. 
I highly recommend both of their

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books. 
I'm not just saying that because

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they're friends of the show or 
they've been on a bunch. 

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They're both very, very well 
researched. 

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And as somebody who likes to 
investigate these mysteries and 

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metaphysics and stuff, I'd say 
they're probably two of the more

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I don't know how to put this. 
I don't, I don't get a sense of 

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BS from anything that they've 
either of them have done. 

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And and I can't say that about 
anybody else in the Fringe 

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community. 
So that's why they're on here 

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and that's why we're going to 
talk. 

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There's a lot of validity of 
validity to a lot of the things 

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that they say. 
So and one more thing, if you 

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want to support mine escape, 
click the link, tree the link 

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down below. 
Both of these fine gentlemen are

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in our documentary, which is 
free on our YouTube channel. 

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We've got a merch store. 
Leave us a nice review, whatever

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you want to do, but we're going 
to move on now. 

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So without further ado, welcome 
on the show Dr. Greg and welcome

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on the show PD. 
Thank you. 

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Good to be here. 
All right, well, let's start off

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with PDI reached out to PD 
because and he didn't even know 

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this, I don't think. 
And you can speak to this, but I

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was watching one of Joe Rogan's 
most recent episodes with Brian 

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Rescue where they were talking 
about, you know, ancient 

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psychedelic use and they were 
talking about Native Americans 

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and they brought, he brought a 
black drink, which is something 

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that you've discussed a lot. 
And actually we've discussed it 

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on a few of the last episodes 
that you've been on previous to 

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this. 
So why don't you give us a 

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little bit of a background on 
what black drink is and we'll go

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from there. 
Sure, black drink is a. 

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It's a it's a drink that was 
made by different Mississippian 

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groups and it it's made from 
yawpon holly, which is the only 

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native source of caffeine in 
North America. 

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But in the the woodcuts and art 
imagery depicting this ritual, 

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you see the men drinking it and 
vomiting over and over, and they

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drink it from these, these 
massive shell cups. 

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And the vomiting led botanists 
to classify this as Ilex 

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vomitoria because they believed 
it was an emetic, A purgative, 

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And they do, the natives do or 
did use it as a purgative before

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going to war and before rites of
passage and things. 

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But. 
Just. 

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You know, I I do a lot of 
experimentation with these 

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plants myself and when I found. 
Y'all pond Holly first growing 

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out here, I thought, well, I'll 
try it, you know, I'll see what 

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the effects are. 
And at no dose did it make me 

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vomit. 
I mean, I and we drank tons of 

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it. 
I got the jitters. 

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Like I drank too much coffee. 
But at no point did I feel like 

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I was going to vomit. 
And this was my first indication

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that there was something else at
work. 

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And in the back of my mind, you 
know, I was naturally thinking. 

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About ayahuasca, which is South 
American tea made from NN 

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dimethyltryptamine containing 
plants and which isn't normally 

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orally active. 
It can be, but it's not normally

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and it's mixed with a monomine 
oxidase inhibitor which comes 

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from other plants, but in 
certain regions it's known as La

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perga the purge because it's 
known to make you vomit. 

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So I thought, well, it wouldn't 
be interesting if they were 

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using other plants along with 
this. 

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And the more I dug, the more I 
found out that depending on the 

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setting in which they're 
drinking this black drink, the 

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the plant additives change. 
They're different for different 

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settings. 
And that that's kind of was my 

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first indication that there 
might be something to this. 

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And then a group of researchers 
got together and did some mass 

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spec. 
Analysis of these various black 

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drink vessels that they 
recovered from Spiro and it 

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turned out that something like 
80% of them tested positive for 

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Detura alkaloids and that had 
never been even considered that 

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they were mixing Detura with 
this black drink. 

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But yes it's it's it's a mini 
it's many things. 

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It's also known as sometimes as 
the white drink, which seems 

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confusing but. 
White it comes from both its 

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purgative aspects, the the 
cleanliness part of it, cleaning

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yourself out. 
And also they would mix it, 

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strain it and mix it and mix it 
and then it would cause this big

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thick white froth on top of it. 
So it could also appear white 

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depending on how much they 
actually aerated it. 

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But yeah, that's basically what 
what black drink is. 

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Before we go any further, we 
might have a little bit of a we 

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were talking before you got on 
and you were mentioning white in

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a different way. 
Dr. Greg, do you? 

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Yeah, according to There's a 
There's a really cool old Say 

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old. 
I think it's in the 80s or 70s. 

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I can't remember and I don't see
the date 82. 

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Great book. 
I know PD Knows It by Charles 

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Hudson. 
Hudson called the Southeastern 

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Indians, and it has just loads 
of good. 

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Stories about the use of the 
black drink and the white center

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that when I say white I don't 
mean the color of the drink but 

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the the first Europeans that 
interacted with natives that 

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were using the substance. 
And according to Hudson he said 

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that the Indian that the natives
did refer to it usually as the 

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white drink and but because it 
was black the Europeans called 

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it the black drink. 
That's Hudson's interpretation. 

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I am not sure that I know that 
Hudson back at that time they 

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hadn't done as much research on 
it. 

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They certainly didn't know 
Detura was in it and a lot of 

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other substances, but they 
really didn't know what the 

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substance was that caused them 
to vomit. 

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And there are descriptions in 
this book of the vomiting where 

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they almost made a contest out 
of it to where they would 

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project. 
Petey's laughing about this, but

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they would project it to see who
could vomit the most and the 

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furthest, and they would do this
repeatedly. 

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And it was a purification 
ritual. 

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And if you've ever done 
something like that, yeah, it is

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purification ritual. 
But he did of course find the 

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the amounts of the caffeine that
was involved. 

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And it's supposedly it's like 10
times as potent as the caffeine.

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That we typically get within 
coffee. 

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So but I don't recommend people 
go out and try it that's that's 

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my little spiel on all that. 
But anyway that that's just a 

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little sideline on it. 
No, because that's why you're 

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here, I. 
Would I would like to ask him 

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the question about hemp if I can
and can I go ahead and go ahead?

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This. 
All right, So, Pete, let me make

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this really clear. 
PD knows. 

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Far more than I do about the use
of substances, far more in the 

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native. 
No, it's true. 

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I've been to a lot of mounds. 
I might, and that's saying a lot

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cuz Greg studied 
psychopharmacology. 

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Yeah, but, but. 
Still, I don't know anything 

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about the as much about the 
Native American use with it. 

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It wasn't of interest to me. 
Until fairly recent years. 

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So yeah, I've been to loads of 
mounds. 

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I've written descriptions of the
mounds and I've looked into the 

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the so-called history that we 
know about them and dates and 

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that kind of stuff. 
I know a bit about the pottery. 

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I was never that interested in 
pottery. 

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It was actually PD that got me 
interested in all that. 

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So in in some of my recent 
research and I've got a little 

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replica of a Hopewell pipe here.
And another one here. 

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I've got a bunch of replicas, 
but I keep reading online people

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are claiming, and it's usually 
on marijuana and hemp sites, 

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that they found marijuana and 
hemp residue in the pipes. 

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And now I've searched 
literature, even recently, and 

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looked for any kind of 
scientific papers where that 

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said that the Native American 
populations had even used hemp. 

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In here as maybe to mix tobacco 
with or whatever, but I can't 

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find a trace of that. 
So do you know anything of 

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anything published in the 
scientific literature where they

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have found traces of marijuana 
or hemp in the pipes? 

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Absolutely not. 
Excuse me. 

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Y'all got to excuse me. 
I'm having some chest issues. 

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I'm just getting over a cold. 
I've never read anything about 

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cannabis. 
In Native American culture now, 

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there is something that's called
Indian hemp that grows 

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everywhere out here, but it's 
not a cannabinoid. 

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It's not unless they're 
confusing it with that. 

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And you know how diverse the 
Kinney Connect blends can get. 

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They'll put different tribes 
will put all kinds of plants in 

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there. 
So I wouldn't put it past some 

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of them to have put Indian hemp.
In there. 

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And if that's the reference, we 
can see where the confusion 

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would come in. 
But I I've never seen cannabis 

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use among any American cultures.
Well, that that that helps me. 

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That clears it up a bit. 
Even on Twitter probably one of 

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my most asked questions, the 
probably the top two or three 

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questions is what they've smoked
in the pipes, what was in the 

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pipes and my answer is always 
primary. 

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I always use primarily as a 
primarily tobacco. 

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And I say that it was that it 
had, it was basically 10 or more

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times as potent as what we have 
today and I think that remains. 

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Is that correct? 
That's still accurate. 

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Yep. 
Aren't you a big promotement 

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proponent of? 
Yeah, I was going to say, aren't

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you a proponent of Rustica, 
which doesn't have, like, a way 

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00:13:26,500 --> 00:13:29,060
higher nicotine? 
Yeah, it can. 

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It can have 3. 
Some sources say as much as nine

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times as much. 
Nicotine in it. 

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Very potent stuff. 
And there are, did you say 

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that's an MAOI as well, the 
Rustica? 

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Yeah, Rustica is an MAOI, that's
right. 

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So it it would be enough to 
potentiate dimethyltryptamine, 

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but that's that's primarily in 
the southeast it would have been

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Rustica. 
Now there's in the southwest, 

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it's still tobacco, but it's 
this. 

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It's Nicotiana obtusopholia, 
which is. 

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It's still potent, but not 
nearly as potent as the rustica 

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and the abtusopholia interesting
story author, a man named Jamie 

225
00:14:13,620 --> 00:14:15,700
Paul Land that lives in Phoenix,
AZ. 

226
00:14:16,380 --> 00:14:19,140
I get an opportunity to go out 
there and visit him and his 

227
00:14:19,140 --> 00:14:20,660
family about. 
About. 

228
00:14:20,820 --> 00:14:22,100
Every year. 
Every other year. 

229
00:14:22,580 --> 00:14:27,420
And he took me to I think it's 
called Deer Park Reserve. 

230
00:14:27,700 --> 00:14:32,460
The petroglyph site and the 
petroglyphs are they occupy. 

231
00:14:33,420 --> 00:14:38,900
One specific area of this this 
reserve, but the reserve itself 

232
00:14:38,900 --> 00:14:43,300
is many acres. 
And as we were walking 

233
00:14:43,300 --> 00:14:46,980
underneath almost every 
petroglyph, I was seeing the 

234
00:14:46,980 --> 00:14:48,900
same plants. 
And I would and there's a 

235
00:14:48,900 --> 00:14:50,740
railing. 
So I couldn't see them well 

236
00:14:50,740 --> 00:14:53,740
enough to know what they were. 
And I jumped over this railing 

237
00:14:53,740 --> 00:14:56,140
and went and looked at them and 
every single one of them were 

238
00:14:56,140 --> 00:15:01,810
either Datura or. 
Nicotiana up to Sopholia, the 

239
00:15:02,170 --> 00:15:05,690
the tobacco under virtually 
every petroglyph. 

240
00:15:06,010 --> 00:15:08,970
And we thought, well, it must 
just grow wild out here. 

241
00:15:09,010 --> 00:15:12,130
And so we started looking over 
the reserve and we must have 

242
00:15:12,130 --> 00:15:15,770
covered 10 or 11 acres and 
didn't find a single other 

243
00:15:15,770 --> 00:15:18,210
specimen of either plant 
anywhere out there. 

244
00:15:18,690 --> 00:15:22,090
And so I consulted some 
different botanist friends of 

245
00:15:22,090 --> 00:15:26,130
mine and asked them Is it 
possible that these plants? 

246
00:15:26,610 --> 00:15:29,490
Have been growing here since 
these petroglyphs were made, and

247
00:15:29,490 --> 00:15:32,370
they said absolutely that the 
seeds fall and they grow in the 

248
00:15:32,370 --> 00:15:36,370
same spots year after year after
year for potentially centuries. 

249
00:15:36,930 --> 00:15:41,530
So it's a good indication they 
were using those both together. 

250
00:15:41,650 --> 00:15:45,330
And in the Southeast, there's a 
lot of examples of tobacco being

251
00:15:45,330 --> 00:15:48,810
used with black nightshade. 
Black nightshade can be 

252
00:15:48,810 --> 00:15:51,850
confusing because we have three 
different plants here in America

253
00:15:51,850 --> 00:15:55,290
that answer to that. 
Name one of them. 

254
00:15:56,320 --> 00:16:01,320
Solanum nigram doesn't grow here
in the southeast, it only grows 

255
00:16:01,520 --> 00:16:04,480
in the southwest areas, so we 
know they weren't using that. 

256
00:16:04,480 --> 00:16:08,080
If they were, they were getting 
it imported to them somehow. 

257
00:16:08,760 --> 00:16:13,440
The other one, Solanum 
americanum, is a new world 

258
00:16:13,440 --> 00:16:15,680
plant. 
It was brought over with 

259
00:16:15,680 --> 00:16:18,920
contact, so it wouldn't have 
been here previous to contact. 

260
00:16:18,920 --> 00:16:23,060
The third, however, is native. 
And it grows all over the 

261
00:16:23,060 --> 00:16:26,820
southeast, and it's Solanum 
Tycanthem that's spelled with a 

262
00:16:26,820 --> 00:16:31,980
PPTY Tycanthem. 
And there are lots of instances 

263
00:16:31,980 --> 00:16:36,300
where they're finding that used 
in conjunction with tobacco and 

264
00:16:36,300 --> 00:16:41,020
various complexes and in in 
association with this, they 

265
00:16:41,020 --> 00:16:46,300
constantly find the remains of 
birds, different kinds of birds,

266
00:16:46,300 --> 00:16:50,000
usually waterfowl. 
Connected somehow to either the 

267
00:16:50,000 --> 00:16:53,960
imagery or the pipe itself. 
And this has led a number of 

268
00:16:53,960 --> 00:16:57,160
different scholars to propose 
that it's a clear indication of 

269
00:16:57,160 --> 00:17:01,320
a of a shamanic connection, a 
shamanic flight that's being 

270
00:17:01,320 --> 00:17:04,400
induced by combining these two 
plants. 

271
00:17:06,319 --> 00:17:08,839
Very interesting. 
While we're on detera, I might 

272
00:17:08,839 --> 00:17:11,040
as well bring it up because I 
did have pictures, which by the 

273
00:17:11,040 --> 00:17:15,589
way, if anybody's listening just
on an audio platform like Will 

274
00:17:15,589 --> 00:17:17,430
Spotify, we have video too. 
But if you're listening on 

275
00:17:17,430 --> 00:17:21,190
Apple, there is some images and 
videos along with you know, 

276
00:17:21,190 --> 00:17:22,550
overlaying and what they're 
saying. 

277
00:17:22,670 --> 00:17:26,230
I will pull this up right now. 
This is the pin, the great 

278
00:17:26,270 --> 00:17:34,590
pinwheel art from Pinwheel Cave 
and they initially thought it 

279
00:17:34,590 --> 00:17:38,870
was some sort of, you know, 
spiral Galaxy or some sort of 

280
00:17:38,870 --> 00:17:41,710
cosmological symbol like you 
would see in other parts of the 

281
00:17:41,710 --> 00:17:45,710
world. 
However, then they found this, 

282
00:17:45,910 --> 00:17:51,990
which I'll pull that back up. 
It looks exactly like the top of

283
00:17:51,990 --> 00:17:56,590
a detura flower. 
Now they found chewed up detura 

284
00:17:56,590 --> 00:18:01,390
quids in the pinwheel cave 
stuffed up in like little holes,

285
00:18:01,390 --> 00:18:03,990
and quids are just like little 
bundles that they chew on. 

286
00:18:05,390 --> 00:18:08,070
And I was that. 
That's The Chew mash, right? 

287
00:18:08,150 --> 00:18:12,260
Is that correct? 
Yeah, and the true I have a long

288
00:18:12,260 --> 00:18:16,300
history of using the Torah and 
rites of passage, particularly 

289
00:18:16,300 --> 00:18:19,940
for young males. 
So once you reach around age 7 

290
00:18:19,940 --> 00:18:24,020
to 9, they would give you a big 
dose of this. 

291
00:18:24,020 --> 00:18:26,460
And reports vary on why they 
would do it. 

292
00:18:26,460 --> 00:18:31,580
Some of them say that it opens 
them up to the the spiritual 

293
00:18:31,740 --> 00:18:34,100
plane. 
Some but other reports say that 

294
00:18:34,100 --> 00:18:38,720
it actually gives them a spirit.
Like a second soul and Greg's 

295
00:18:38,720 --> 00:18:41,800
talked a lot about the two soul 
model and the Native American 

296
00:18:41,800 --> 00:18:43,960
traditions. 
But it could also be something 

297
00:18:43,960 --> 00:18:48,160
like a genius or a Damon. 
Very much like you would acquire

298
00:18:48,160 --> 00:18:52,000
a spirit and and other ancient 
cultures, but they would give it

299
00:18:52,920 --> 00:18:54,960
considerably young. 
And I don't. 

300
00:18:55,200 --> 00:18:59,680
I think only the shamans and I I
use the word shaman reluctantly.

301
00:18:59,680 --> 00:19:03,000
They wouldn't have used that 
word, but only their holy men 

302
00:19:03,000 --> 00:19:06,190
would have used it. 
Repeatedly throughout their 

303
00:19:06,190 --> 00:19:10,870
lives for certain purposes. 
Unless I'm mistaken, I believe 

304
00:19:10,870 --> 00:19:14,270
that the rest of the tribe were 
only given it given to them 

305
00:19:14,270 --> 00:19:19,390
during this young rite of 
passage, so they were definitely

306
00:19:19,390 --> 00:19:23,470
using it outside of just those 
quids and whatnot. 

307
00:19:24,110 --> 00:19:29,310
Can I interject a quick question
here for absolutely and some 

308
00:19:29,470 --> 00:19:31,190
some things that I'm writing 
right now? 

309
00:19:31,190 --> 00:19:35,590
I've. 
Read that the word shaman was 

310
00:19:35,590 --> 00:19:40,110
first used around late 1600s, 
like 1690, something like that. 

311
00:19:40,110 --> 00:19:43,790
That's when the word was coined.
So what do you think they did 

312
00:19:43,790 --> 00:19:50,190
call themselves? 
It would change with the group. 

313
00:19:51,910 --> 00:19:57,310
There's a here in the Mini. 
One, I'm sorry. 

314
00:19:57,310 --> 00:20:01,850
Go ahead. 
Here, here in the South, among 

315
00:20:01,850 --> 00:20:05,450
the Chickasaw and the Choctaw, I
believe they had a a similar 

316
00:20:05,450 --> 00:20:09,090
word. 
It's escaping me right now. 

317
00:20:09,330 --> 00:20:11,330
It'll it'll come to me in a 
minute. 

318
00:20:13,890 --> 00:20:16,690
But it's nothing like. 
The word shaman itself comes 

319
00:20:16,690 --> 00:20:21,370
from the Tungustic people out of
Siberia, and it was used. 

320
00:20:22,170 --> 00:20:24,930
By. 
Outsiders. 

321
00:20:25,510 --> 00:20:28,590
You know, trying to come up with
some word that they could use to

322
00:20:28,590 --> 00:20:31,230
describe these other practices 
that look so similar. 

323
00:20:31,550 --> 00:20:34,910
And as you know, there's there's
a lot of evidence that shows 

324
00:20:34,910 --> 00:20:39,150
that some of those practices 
probably did come in through the

325
00:20:39,150 --> 00:20:41,990
north and down around the South 
from from those areas. 

326
00:20:42,350 --> 00:20:46,990
But yeah, the word, the word 
itself is toongoustic and the 

327
00:20:47,070 --> 00:20:49,950
the Chickasaw term, it'll come 
to me in a minute. 

328
00:20:49,950 --> 00:20:54,510
Go ahead. 
The, the, the Choctaw had a 

329
00:20:54,510 --> 00:20:59,630
word. 
That meant one who knows and it 

330
00:20:59,630 --> 00:21:03,670
was Nan Kana. 
Nan Kana. 

331
00:21:03,990 --> 00:21:07,710
And the the only reason I know 
that is because and you've been 

332
00:21:07,710 --> 00:21:11,070
to a business that I'm 
associated with and behind the 

333
00:21:11,070 --> 00:21:15,270
business there is a stream in 
Memphis called Nan Kana Creek. 

334
00:21:16,070 --> 00:21:18,710
And for years I knew it was an 
Indian word. 

335
00:21:18,710 --> 00:21:22,510
But I didn't know what it was. 
And what it means is one who 

336
00:21:22,510 --> 00:21:25,420
knows. 
And I've always and I I haven't 

337
00:21:25,420 --> 00:21:29,620
been able to find out more about
that one term, but I suspect 

338
00:21:29,620 --> 00:21:33,620
that is the word for a shaman in
Choctaw. 

339
00:21:34,340 --> 00:21:36,620
That's my guess that. 
Would make sense. 

340
00:21:36,860 --> 00:21:43,220
The the the whole nose notion of
knowing noses that shows up holy

341
00:21:43,220 --> 00:21:45,460
men and initiates of various 
places. 

342
00:21:45,940 --> 00:21:49,740
The word used for them is 
something having to do with the 

343
00:21:49,780 --> 00:21:50,980
right. 
He knows. 

344
00:21:51,140 --> 00:21:54,980
Oh, it's it's Alkisi. 
I think that's how easy is the 

345
00:21:54,980 --> 00:21:59,700
Chickasaw term, and I don't know
the the actual meaning of it, 

346
00:21:59,700 --> 00:22:03,700
but that's what they call their 
their healers slash sears. 

347
00:22:04,100 --> 00:22:08,060
Yeah, Okay. 
Very interesting. 

348
00:22:09,020 --> 00:22:11,460
Yeah. 
So we're talking about tatura, 

349
00:22:11,980 --> 00:22:16,260
pinwheel cave. 
Why do you think scopolamine or 

350
00:22:16,260 --> 00:22:18,180
scopolamine, people pronounce it
differently? 

351
00:22:18,820 --> 00:22:21,080
How do you think? 
Why do you think that was such a

352
00:22:21,080 --> 00:22:23,520
favorable compound for the 
native? 

353
00:22:23,520 --> 00:22:28,080
Do you think it's just because 
it was available, you know, via,

354
00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:34,400
you know, deter is probably one 
of the more widely spread. 

355
00:22:34,440 --> 00:22:37,120
I mean throughout the US you 
can, I would think that you 

356
00:22:37,120 --> 00:22:39,160
could find it in any state. 
I don't know that for sure, but 

357
00:22:39,160 --> 00:22:41,600
I think it's one of those types 
of plants where it's found kind 

358
00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:46,480
of like everywhere. 
I think it's it boils down to. 

359
00:22:47,340 --> 00:22:52,060
It's what works and it's 
effective every time now. 

360
00:22:52,060 --> 00:22:56,780
It's not predictive every time. 
You have to be quite skilled at 

361
00:22:57,020 --> 00:23:00,740
navigating those territories, 
have your sea legs to even, in 

362
00:23:00,740 --> 00:23:05,260
my opinion, be able to approach 
nightshades and scopolamine. 

363
00:23:05,260 --> 00:23:08,660
It's very dangerous. 
It's probably, it's arguably the

364
00:23:08,660 --> 00:23:12,700
most dangerous of the, what we 
would call hallucinogenic 

365
00:23:12,700 --> 00:23:16,140
plants. 
But there's there's mythologies 

366
00:23:16,140 --> 00:23:18,620
wrapped up around them, you 
know, all the way down into 

367
00:23:18,620 --> 00:23:22,820
Mexico and South America. 
And it's a striking plant. 

368
00:23:22,860 --> 00:23:25,740
You know, if you when you see 
them, the flowers smell amazing.

369
00:23:26,100 --> 00:23:28,300
Yeah, I. 
Just pulled up some some 

370
00:23:28,300 --> 00:23:31,820
trumpets. 
These funny, funny story I saw 

371
00:23:31,820 --> 00:23:36,340
last week. 
I'm like Instagram or TikTok the

372
00:23:36,340 --> 00:23:38,980
this woman and her friend. 
We're at a party and they said 

373
00:23:38,980 --> 00:23:43,680
some angels, trumpets. 
And they were just smelling them

374
00:23:43,680 --> 00:23:46,360
and they couldn't figure out why
they were getting like so like 

375
00:23:46,360 --> 00:23:48,680
fucked. 
I like what what's going on, you

376
00:23:48,680 --> 00:23:50,440
know? 
And then I'm then it's like 

377
00:23:50,440 --> 00:23:54,080
clear like oh, that girls 
basically sniffing, you know and

378
00:23:54,080 --> 00:23:56,280
angels, trumpets just getting 
all that pal and up. 

379
00:23:56,280 --> 00:24:02,440
But you know so, but like. 
Themselves are lightly 

380
00:24:02,840 --> 00:24:06,080
intoxicating. 
OK, one of the better ways to 

381
00:24:06,120 --> 00:24:12,720
use it that's safe is to place. 
A flower or a flowering plant 

382
00:24:12,800 --> 00:24:17,200
near your bed when you sleep and
just smelling it, The effect on 

383
00:24:17,400 --> 00:24:21,480
on dream recall lucidity. 
It's unparalleled. 

384
00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:26,120
Yeah, again though they are 
dangerous biologically, these 

385
00:24:26,120 --> 00:24:27,960
are not the same. 
You know, We talk a lot about 

386
00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:30,720
tryptamines and phenylamines and
different things on this 

387
00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:33,680
podcast, different 
classifications of psychedelic 

388
00:24:33,680 --> 00:24:35,880
drugs. 
But as far as? 

389
00:24:37,350 --> 00:24:38,830
You know, effects on your 
biology. 

390
00:24:38,830 --> 00:24:41,670
I think that nightshades are 
obviously the most dangerous. 

391
00:24:41,670 --> 00:24:43,630
I mean, maybe there's a more 
dangerous one you can think of, 

392
00:24:43,630 --> 00:24:46,950
but I mean, Greg. 
You've heard of tobacco sickness

393
00:24:47,750 --> 00:24:50,710
that you can get from harvesting
green tobacco. 

394
00:24:50,710 --> 00:24:53,150
Yeah, I had. 
I had an employee that worked 

395
00:24:53,150 --> 00:24:57,470
for me who grew up on a tobacco 
farm and they used to. 

396
00:24:57,470 --> 00:25:01,670
He said that he got sick several
times. 

397
00:25:01,670 --> 00:25:04,270
Walking through the fields would
be hot. 

398
00:25:04,270 --> 00:25:06,410
It was in a. 
Very hot area. 

399
00:25:06,410 --> 00:25:08,370
They wouldn't wear a shirt. 
They sweat a lot. 

400
00:25:09,170 --> 00:25:14,170
And yeah, and some people 
actually had, they get the 

401
00:25:14,170 --> 00:25:17,730
shakes because they'd overdose 
on nicotine. 

402
00:25:17,730 --> 00:25:20,610
Yes. 
And it can give you very 

403
00:25:20,610 --> 00:25:24,290
longterm effects. 
I wanted to ask you too about 

404
00:25:24,290 --> 00:25:28,330
the scopolamine. 
It used to be back in the late 

405
00:25:28,330 --> 00:25:35,100
60s and 1970s. 
Fat Somonex The over the counter

406
00:25:35,100 --> 00:25:40,580
sleeping aid called Somonex had 
scopolamine in it and it was 

407
00:25:40,580 --> 00:25:47,260
used by people who were taking 
LSD or other hallucinogens. 

408
00:25:48,100 --> 00:25:52,420
Usually it was LSD or the LSD 
that often had. 

409
00:25:53,550 --> 00:25:56,550
Amphetamines in it, they call 
them orange barrels and things 

410
00:25:56,550 --> 00:25:57,950
like that. 
The people would take the 

411
00:25:57,950 --> 00:26:01,830
Somonex to come down from the 
trip because those, when you had

412
00:26:01,830 --> 00:26:06,190
amphetamine mixed with the LSD, 
the trips could last a couple 

413
00:26:06,190 --> 00:26:09,990
days at a time. 
So the way they come down is by 

414
00:26:09,990 --> 00:26:13,670
taking Somonex. 
You can't, it's not in Somonex 

415
00:26:14,150 --> 00:26:15,790
anymore. 
I want to make that clear. 

416
00:26:16,230 --> 00:26:17,750
People are run into the 
drugstore. 

417
00:26:17,750 --> 00:26:20,350
Let's get. 
It it's not there, you can't. 

418
00:26:20,350 --> 00:26:24,870
You can't get it now. 
But it's surprising, I know it 

419
00:26:24,870 --> 00:26:30,470
was used as a sleep aid. 
I used Sommon X when I was very 

420
00:26:30,470 --> 00:26:32,310
young. 
When I say very young, as in my 

421
00:26:32,310 --> 00:26:34,870
early 20s, mainly as a sleeping 
aid. 

422
00:26:34,870 --> 00:26:37,470
I've always had trouble getting 
to sleep and it was quite 

423
00:26:37,470 --> 00:26:40,750
effective. 
Yeah, I can't remember having 

424
00:26:40,750 --> 00:26:42,470
any hallucinogenic effects from 
it. 

425
00:26:42,470 --> 00:26:46,780
Maybe other than less of dreams.
I'm not familiar with Somonex, 

426
00:26:46,780 --> 00:26:50,500
but I know it's used in 
dentistry and like my mother 

427
00:26:50,500 --> 00:26:53,820
she's a nurse and she she's a 
Hospice nurse and she keeps 

428
00:26:54,220 --> 00:26:59,020
scopolamine patches that they 
use for various purposes and and

429
00:26:59,100 --> 00:27:04,300
if you get like homeopathic 
teething pit tablet for babies, 

430
00:27:04,580 --> 00:27:08,220
they make those with belladonna.
But of course homeopathic it's 

431
00:27:08,220 --> 00:27:10,420
so diluted it wouldn't affect 
you and that way anyway. 

432
00:27:10,620 --> 00:27:17,190
But the only other medicinal. 
Application I know of are these 

433
00:27:17,790 --> 00:27:22,350
asthma cigarettes you can look 
up asthma door they would it 

434
00:27:22,350 --> 00:27:25,470
would have cannabis, datura, 
belladonna. 

435
00:27:25,910 --> 00:27:30,270
Sometimes henbane would be mixed
in there so I know it was used 

436
00:27:30,270 --> 00:27:32,190
that way. 
The reason I brought up tobacco 

437
00:27:32,190 --> 00:27:35,790
cygnus is this. 
You can get the same thing from 

438
00:27:36,070 --> 00:27:40,150
nightshades and I experienced 
this the first time with my 

439
00:27:40,150 --> 00:27:41,390
wife. 
We. 

440
00:27:42,180 --> 00:27:47,900
Came upon this, this abandoned 
house in Tupelo that had Angel 

441
00:27:47,900 --> 00:27:50,380
trumpets growing everywhere out 
in the front of it. 

442
00:27:50,700 --> 00:27:53,220
And we decided we would get out 
and just pick some flowers. 

443
00:27:53,220 --> 00:27:55,940
And we were loading up on these 
flowers and before I knew it, 

444
00:27:56,380 --> 00:28:01,340
just from the SAP, from not SAP,
but it's just the juices out of 

445
00:28:01,340 --> 00:28:03,820
it, from picking those flowers 
getting on our hands. 

446
00:28:04,340 --> 00:28:09,260
We got so like, kind of just 
just scared because we were so 

447
00:28:09,260 --> 00:28:11,770
far from home. 
We knew we needed to get 

448
00:28:11,770 --> 00:28:15,810
somewhere safe, but it it came 
on so quick and unexpected. 

449
00:28:16,290 --> 00:28:19,130
But you can get the same thing, 
that's just handle. 

450
00:28:19,690 --> 00:28:24,010
It that's funny that you say 
that about Scopala means. 

451
00:28:24,010 --> 00:28:27,330
So I think I'm trying to think 
who the guest was might have 

452
00:28:27,330 --> 00:28:30,130
been Matthew Palamerri maybe 
like two or three times ago when

453
00:28:30,130 --> 00:28:32,330
he was on. 
But he mentioned one of his 

454
00:28:32,330 --> 00:28:36,450
friends gardening and cutting a 
bunch of detour of, like, roots 

455
00:28:36,890 --> 00:28:40,780
and getting like the. 
The goo on his fingers or hands 

456
00:28:40,780 --> 00:28:44,140
or cuts on his hands and then 
somehow he became like super 

457
00:28:44,140 --> 00:28:47,020
intoxicated and he couldn't 
figure out why, but he thinks 

458
00:28:47,020 --> 00:28:50,900
that that's so now you're 
talking about something similar,

459
00:28:50,900 --> 00:28:53,620
like how? 
How does that get into your body

460
00:28:53,620 --> 00:28:57,660
so easily if that's the case? 
Well, and that's you've heard 

461
00:28:57,660 --> 00:29:00,500
about the witches ointment, the 
witches hallucinogens that they 

462
00:29:00,500 --> 00:29:04,420
would allegedly put in these 
ointments, boil it up and pig 

463
00:29:04,420 --> 00:29:06,620
fat and then smear it all over 
their body. 

464
00:29:08,220 --> 00:29:10,620
There definitely were witches 
ointments later the earliest 

465
00:29:10,620 --> 00:29:14,420
reference are Tom Hat says 
points us out in his book The 

466
00:29:14,420 --> 00:29:18,740
Witches Ointment that there 
there really wasn't a witch's 

467
00:29:18,740 --> 00:29:22,700
ointment in the beginning but 
there became one as this kind of

468
00:29:22,700 --> 00:29:25,500
myth of an A flying ointment 
evolved. 

469
00:29:25,900 --> 00:29:31,500
But I I have some that I use. 
It's on top of my shelf up there

470
00:29:33,020 --> 00:29:37,500
that was made by Kobe Michael 
and it's a detera ointment and. 

471
00:29:38,810 --> 00:29:42,570
Traditionally it's not just for 
psychoactive purposes or to help

472
00:29:42,570 --> 00:29:45,210
you sleep. 
They also use use these plants 

473
00:29:45,210 --> 00:29:50,330
as poultices for sprains, 
bruises, aches and things like 

474
00:29:50,330 --> 00:29:52,090
that. 
And that's how we first started 

475
00:29:52,090 --> 00:29:53,970
using it. 
My wife has some trouble. 

476
00:29:54,650 --> 00:29:59,970
She's got a called Ehlers Donlo 
Syndrome where she she's she's 

477
00:29:59,970 --> 00:30:03,090
incredibly double jointed and 
her joints will come out and 

478
00:30:03,130 --> 00:30:06,900
they when they do it hurts. 
And we tried this to see if it 

479
00:30:06,900 --> 00:30:10,100
would help in it. 
It's been a miracle drug for 

480
00:30:10,100 --> 00:30:15,100
her, but I found that it's 
really good just for meditative 

481
00:30:15,100 --> 00:30:17,460
practices. 
Also, there's a definite A 

482
00:30:17,460 --> 00:30:21,300
definite shift that happens 
putting it on topically and it's

483
00:30:21,900 --> 00:30:24,660
it's more manageable than 
ingesting it for sure, but it's 

484
00:30:24,660 --> 00:30:30,020
still dangerous. 
Yeah, I think scopal means the 

485
00:30:30,020 --> 00:30:34,440
perfect. 
Example of Paracelsus is dosage 

486
00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:39,200
makes the poison right because 
you can get a scope lamine patch

487
00:30:39,360 --> 00:30:42,120
if you've got seasickness and it
doesn't really probably do 

488
00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:45,720
anything psychoactively to you. 
But then on the highest people 

489
00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:49,640
are mixing brumancia in 
ayahuasca and having these nuts 

490
00:30:49,840 --> 00:30:52,040
which a lot of people that I 
know that do ayahuasca don't 

491
00:30:52,040 --> 00:30:53,840
recommend it. 
Why mix deter. 

492
00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:59,040
Yeah. 
Toe exactly So but yeah so and 

493
00:30:59,040 --> 00:31:02,300
earlier when I when I. 
When I brought up, you know, the

494
00:31:02,300 --> 00:31:04,700
Joe Rogan and the drinking, the 
black drink, I forgot to mention

495
00:31:04,700 --> 00:31:08,020
that your name was actually 
mentioned Joe Rogan. 

496
00:31:08,060 --> 00:31:11,580
Brian mentioned he said Danny 
Newman, which if you don't know,

497
00:31:11,580 --> 00:31:15,180
that's obviously Pd's real 
names, Danny, but we call him 

498
00:31:15,180 --> 00:31:16,860
PD. 
So if you were confused by that,

499
00:31:16,860 --> 00:31:20,660
that's who that is. 
Yeah, and Joe Rogan followed me 

500
00:31:20,660 --> 00:31:23,020
on Instagram right after that. 
I was kind of shocked. 

501
00:31:23,260 --> 00:31:24,820
You're. 
Famous bro, You're Rogan. 

502
00:31:24,820 --> 00:31:26,980
Famous is. 
That what it is. 

503
00:31:28,500 --> 00:31:30,710
So my needs to. 
To let my wife know. 

504
00:31:30,910 --> 00:31:32,190
Yeah, we. 
Gotta we gotta hold on to your 

505
00:31:32,190 --> 00:31:35,390
coattails while we come. 
Will you ask how these 

506
00:31:35,390 --> 00:31:38,750
substances could get in the body
from, you know, through the 

507
00:31:38,750 --> 00:31:44,510
skin, anybody who's working 
outside a lot, anybody who is 

508
00:31:44,510 --> 00:31:50,830
wearing shorts and you're you're
walking through untamed land, 

509
00:31:50,830 --> 00:31:53,910
you're gonna have little cuts 
and scrapes and all over your 

510
00:31:53,910 --> 00:31:57,150
body and all over your hands and
you're you're definitely gonna. 

511
00:31:58,290 --> 00:32:00,530
Touch the plants, so just no way
around it. 

512
00:32:00,530 --> 00:32:04,290
So that may be enough to do it. 
I used to grow a lot of 

513
00:32:04,610 --> 00:32:07,490
nightshade in my backyard 
because it looked beautiful. 

514
00:32:07,490 --> 00:32:11,130
When I lived in a lake, we had 
this hill going down and we grew

515
00:32:11,650 --> 00:32:15,250
loads of it there. 
I knew what it was, but it was 

516
00:32:15,290 --> 00:32:19,850
the plants were so beautiful and
they lasted four or five years. 

517
00:32:19,850 --> 00:32:22,610
They kept coming back and then 
just simply died out. 

518
00:32:23,370 --> 00:32:24,890
But I've never, I want to make 
it clear. 

519
00:32:24,890 --> 00:32:27,700
I've never tried any of that. 
The. 

520
00:32:29,500 --> 00:32:30,460
Yeah. 
Sure, pal. 

521
00:32:31,420 --> 00:32:33,180
Sir, I said. 
Yeah, sure, pal. 

522
00:32:33,580 --> 00:32:36,940
No, that's true. 
Never tried any of that, none of

523
00:32:36,940 --> 00:32:39,140
these, none of these kinds of 
substances. 

524
00:32:39,340 --> 00:32:44,900
I have definitely tried other 
hallucinogenics and marijuana 

525
00:32:44,900 --> 00:32:47,300
and so on. 
And the statute of limitations 

526
00:32:47,300 --> 00:32:49,180
has passed on everything. 
Yeah. 

527
00:32:49,180 --> 00:32:51,580
Actually, if you're interested, 
I think we have a few Patreons 

528
00:32:51,580 --> 00:32:52,700
with you. 
We're really. 

529
00:32:53,040 --> 00:32:55,400
Let it loose and let us know 
what you've done. 

530
00:32:56,560 --> 00:33:04,240
So but I the natural stuff about
the only what's what's the I'm 

531
00:33:04,240 --> 00:33:08,560
trying to think the only natural
thing that I took and it was a 

532
00:33:08,560 --> 00:33:10,960
test to see what it would do. 
And I can't. 

533
00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:14,280
Nutmeg. 
Nutmeg is the only thing. 

534
00:33:14,280 --> 00:33:19,400
And nutmeg is incredibly it's 
incredibly stupid to take nutmeg

535
00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:21,400
and have a hallucinogenic 
experience. 

536
00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:26,520
The reason is. 
That with nutmeg, the lethal 

537
00:33:26,520 --> 00:33:31,840
dose or the damage dose is just 
above the effective dose, so you

538
00:33:31,840 --> 00:33:36,240
have to take enough nutmeg to 
have the effect. 

539
00:33:36,240 --> 00:33:39,880
But if you take any more beyond 
that, you can get liver damage 

540
00:33:40,120 --> 00:33:42,000
and lots of other problems with 
it. 

541
00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:44,600
So it's just incredibly stupid 
to do that. 

542
00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:49,520
And so I admit, I've done some 
incredibly stupid things before.

543
00:33:50,690 --> 00:33:53,450
I never tried the nutmeg before.
I've always read about it. 

544
00:33:53,450 --> 00:33:57,570
You know Charlie Parker, the 
famous jazz sax player? 

545
00:33:57,570 --> 00:34:01,570
He liked to put nutmeg in his 
cocacola before a show. 

546
00:34:02,650 --> 00:34:06,770
Wow, it interesting. 
It has an effect. 

547
00:34:06,770 --> 00:34:15,770
I will say that it is and it 
lasts probably 24 to 48 hours. 

548
00:34:17,050 --> 00:34:20,330
It it lasts crazy. 
And it's because the liver can't

549
00:34:20,330 --> 00:34:23,210
metabolize it. 
It's blocking up the liver, the.

550
00:34:23,650 --> 00:34:27,449
The sailors the sailors drug 
because it was discovered by 

551
00:34:28,050 --> 00:34:33,610
sailors traveling spice back in 
they probably. 

552
00:34:33,610 --> 00:34:35,370
Ran out of food. 
They're like, let's just eat the

553
00:34:35,370 --> 00:34:40,570
spices. 
I have I have a grim war. 

554
00:34:40,570 --> 00:34:42,409
I'm researching a lot of grim 
wars. 

555
00:34:42,889 --> 00:34:44,690
Right now, magical text from 
Europe. 

556
00:34:45,330 --> 00:34:49,330
And there there's one that talks
about it's a love spell to get a

557
00:34:49,650 --> 00:34:51,889
this a woman to fall in love 
with you or a man. 

558
00:34:53,010 --> 00:34:58,490
But the spell is to to eat an 
entire a whole nutmeg. 

559
00:34:59,010 --> 00:35:03,130
And I imagine that's pretty 
probably pretty close to a 

560
00:35:03,130 --> 00:35:04,970
dangerous I, don't I. 
Never did. 

561
00:35:05,090 --> 00:35:07,570
I never did the. 
They usually talked about 

562
00:35:07,570 --> 00:35:11,300
tablespoons. 
And essentially with a can of 

563
00:35:11,300 --> 00:35:14,820
nutmeg and it's ground nutmeg 
that you put an eggnog every 

564
00:35:14,820 --> 00:35:18,220
year for for Christmas or 
whatever, it's. 

565
00:35:18,220 --> 00:35:22,100
I don't even want to say how 
much you, but it's a lot and it 

566
00:35:22,100 --> 00:35:25,460
just in in massive doses it just
tastes terrible. 

567
00:35:25,500 --> 00:35:27,460
It is and it's hard to hold 
down. 

568
00:35:27,460 --> 00:35:29,420
You're going to throw up, 
probably. 

569
00:35:30,340 --> 00:35:35,740
It's hard to hold down and. 
It's not anything that if 

570
00:35:35,740 --> 00:35:38,660
somebody did it once, it's 
probably not anything they would

571
00:35:38,660 --> 00:35:44,780
want to do more than once. 
But it does last 24 to 48 hours.

572
00:35:45,100 --> 00:35:49,060
It doesn't put you to sleep. 
Yeah, that's that's, yeah, 

573
00:35:49,900 --> 00:35:52,260
pretty bad stuff. 
Yeah, you know the interesting 

574
00:35:52,260 --> 00:35:54,980
thing about all these kind so 
like, obvious. 

575
00:35:54,980 --> 00:35:59,860
I've been doing psychedelics now
for over 20 years and the 

576
00:35:59,860 --> 00:36:03,230
interesting thing to me is. 
Because I am interested in 

577
00:36:03,390 --> 00:36:06,510
ancient civilizations and 
ancient knowledge and esoteric 

578
00:36:06,510 --> 00:36:10,230
stuff, I would have thought that
tryptamines would have been way 

579
00:36:10,230 --> 00:36:14,110
more prevalent, but seems to me 
based on Native American 

580
00:36:14,110 --> 00:36:19,070
culture, the Romans, the Greeks,
just to name a few. 

581
00:36:19,070 --> 00:36:24,830
But like tro pains really. 
Were heavily favored in a lot of

582
00:36:24,830 --> 00:36:28,350
civilizations where I don't 
find, I don't like them, I don't

583
00:36:28,350 --> 00:36:31,190
find them pleasant. 
I'm more of a tryptamine guy, 

584
00:36:31,190 --> 00:36:34,430
but I just find that very 
interesting. 

585
00:36:35,230 --> 00:36:37,590
Yeah. 
Well, they had mushrooms, yeah. 

586
00:36:38,110 --> 00:36:40,150
There were mushrooms available, 
of course I know. 

587
00:36:40,150 --> 00:36:42,790
I know, but you don't really see
too many mushroom depictions in 

588
00:36:42,790 --> 00:36:45,030
Greek art, if there's any. 
No, not in Greek or. 

589
00:36:45,230 --> 00:36:47,270
Native Americans that I think 
part of the well. 

590
00:36:47,270 --> 00:36:49,910
Yeah, yeah. 
Sacred Mushroom Rituals and the.

591
00:36:51,830 --> 00:36:57,270
What is that the the Vienna 
codecs has depictions of, you 

592
00:36:57,270 --> 00:36:59,550
know, ceremonies and stuff like 
that and. 

593
00:36:59,830 --> 00:37:04,710
Greg wrote about the the 
mushroom effigy wand that was 

594
00:37:04,710 --> 00:37:08,710
found in Newark. 
Well, effigy, yeah. 

595
00:37:08,710 --> 00:37:10,430
Where was? 
Why don't you tell us a little 

596
00:37:10,430 --> 00:37:11,270
bit about that? 
It was. 

597
00:37:11,310 --> 00:37:12,990
The Newark Earthworks where they
found. 

598
00:37:12,990 --> 00:37:13,990
That's right. 
Yeah. 

599
00:37:14,030 --> 00:37:16,270
Newark, yeah. 
Yeah, and. 

600
00:37:16,630 --> 00:37:19,030
The problem with that is they 
don't grow year round. 

601
00:37:19,850 --> 00:37:21,650
Right. 
You're not going to find Newark.

602
00:37:21,650 --> 00:37:24,770
OH is pretty cold in the winter 
so they don't. 

603
00:37:24,770 --> 00:37:28,010
So the mushrooms don't come up. 
And the weird thing that I know 

604
00:37:28,010 --> 00:37:32,610
about is the the ritual where I 
am certain that they shared 

605
00:37:33,130 --> 00:37:36,770
these hallucinogenic substances 
with the masses were done in the

606
00:37:36,770 --> 00:37:40,610
dead of winter because like the 
black drink weren't wasn't 

607
00:37:40,610 --> 00:37:43,370
shared with the masses. 
And I know, I know, PD knows 

608
00:37:43,370 --> 00:37:47,650
that and women generally. 
Except for one. 

609
00:37:47,650 --> 00:37:50,770
And that was a secret. 
One woman could use it, but 

610
00:37:50,770 --> 00:37:52,570
women didn't use the black 
drink. 

611
00:37:52,570 --> 00:37:57,690
But I know it that they used 
hallucinogens in the winter 

612
00:37:57,690 --> 00:37:59,810
ceremonies and the rituals of 
the dead. 

613
00:38:01,010 --> 00:38:03,970
And that to me, that's actually 
what I've been focusing on 

614
00:38:03,970 --> 00:38:05,770
lately. 
Not necessarily the use of the 

615
00:38:05,770 --> 00:38:09,450
rituals or the hallucinogens, 
but the rituals themselves. 

616
00:38:10,450 --> 00:38:13,010
And I've wondered, did they 
store those? 

617
00:38:13,010 --> 00:38:16,490
Did somebody walk around with a 
bag full of dried mushrooms? 

618
00:38:18,630 --> 00:38:23,710
I think what would have been the
case when I was researching the 

619
00:38:23,710 --> 00:38:26,550
book, we don't know what it's 
going to be called yet. 

620
00:38:26,550 --> 00:38:29,870
But the book I have come out 
with other traditions on Native 

621
00:38:29,870 --> 00:38:33,190
American shamanism in the 
Mississippi Valley when I was 

622
00:38:33,190 --> 00:38:36,830
looking at at that mushroom 
effigy wand. 

623
00:38:36,830 --> 00:38:42,110
Because in the literature, most 
of the scholars identify it as 

624
00:38:42,110 --> 00:38:47,280
an Amanita muscaria, but the. 
It's the dimensions are all 

625
00:38:47,280 --> 00:38:51,800
wrong for an animated, but when 
you look at Newark in that area 

626
00:38:51,800 --> 00:38:56,240
there are between 10:00 and 
12:00 different psilocybin 

627
00:38:56,240 --> 00:38:59,600
mushrooms that grow there at 
different times of the year. 

628
00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:05,320
And I I I boiled it down to what
I think are the two best 

629
00:39:05,320 --> 00:39:09,480
candidates, but I don't know how
prevalent they are out there. 

630
00:39:09,480 --> 00:39:13,160
I don't know how easy it is to 
identify them when it comes to 

631
00:39:13,600 --> 00:39:16,220
to fungus. 
You really have to be an expert 

632
00:39:17,420 --> 00:39:20,420
to to be able to pick the right 
kinds. 

633
00:39:20,860 --> 00:39:24,740
Unless you're you know here in 
the South, everybody knows what 

634
00:39:24,740 --> 00:39:27,860
the if you're. 
Looking for a good follow on, 

635
00:39:28,060 --> 00:39:31,580
you know, mycology, obviously 
Paul Stavitz, but pictures and 

636
00:39:31,580 --> 00:39:34,660
identification is actually Alan 
Rockefeller and he has different

637
00:39:34,660 --> 00:39:37,900
groups on Facebook and all the 
platforms. 

638
00:39:37,900 --> 00:39:40,420
So check out Alan Rockefeller. 
He's a great resource on 

639
00:39:40,420 --> 00:39:42,740
mycology. 
Interesting. 

640
00:39:43,630 --> 00:39:47,550
Well, we were in Newark a few 
months ago and well now it's not

641
00:39:47,550 --> 00:39:50,110
been a few, it's been there's a 
few months ago. 

642
00:39:50,790 --> 00:39:54,270
And actually we spent a week 
traveling around up there. 

643
00:39:54,270 --> 00:39:59,870
And I did see mushrooms in a 
variety of places where there 

644
00:39:59,870 --> 00:40:03,950
were mounds in the in the 
mountains and in flatland 

645
00:40:04,950 --> 00:40:08,710
throughout Ohio encountered them
in the woods. 

646
00:40:08,710 --> 00:40:11,190
Everything from Fort Ancient 
Ohio. 

647
00:40:11,590 --> 00:40:14,550
Newark is to mode. 
It's a, it's a golf course or 

648
00:40:14,550 --> 00:40:18,150
it's been a golf course up to 
today and it's so it's mode and 

649
00:40:18,150 --> 00:40:21,750
you don't see any there. 
But at Fort Ancient, at the 

650
00:40:21,750 --> 00:40:28,150
Williamson Mound site and the 
Pollock earthworks, which is 

651
00:40:28,150 --> 00:40:33,980
near there, and also at what's 
called Fort Miami, which was a a

652
00:40:33,980 --> 00:40:37,900
Hopewell era for we saw some 
mushrooms there too. 

653
00:40:38,180 --> 00:40:43,580
I am not an expert to identify 
mushrooms, but I would have bet 

654
00:40:43,580 --> 00:40:47,420
that some of those were 
psilocybin mushrooms. 

655
00:40:48,020 --> 00:40:51,100
And I've actually read 
archaeological reports now where

656
00:40:51,100 --> 00:40:55,260
they they say that they they 
know that they had psilocybin 

657
00:40:55,260 --> 00:40:58,220
mushrooms and they would have 
had experts in identifying them.

658
00:40:58,220 --> 00:41:01,980
They would have pretty much been
devoted to that from early life 

659
00:41:01,980 --> 00:41:04,990
on, so somebody would have known
that. 

660
00:41:05,590 --> 00:41:09,430
I think so too. 
And I think that you're probably

661
00:41:09,430 --> 00:41:15,070
spot on with with the saying 
that they probably stored them 

662
00:41:16,150 --> 00:41:18,590
because they were experts at 
food preservation. 

663
00:41:18,590 --> 00:41:20,550
They would have known how to 
store it properly. 

664
00:41:21,370 --> 00:41:24,290
And how long would they? 
How long could they be kept? 

665
00:41:24,290 --> 00:41:29,010
How long could you dry and keep 
a mushroom like that without an 

666
00:41:29,010 --> 00:41:31,090
airtight plastic bag, for 
example? 

667
00:41:31,170 --> 00:41:32,210
How well? 
Can that be done? 

668
00:41:32,490 --> 00:41:36,930
I'll step in here because I do 
know a lot about psilocybin, so 

669
00:41:37,010 --> 00:41:40,970
the if you just leave them 
sitting out in like a sealed ish

670
00:41:41,090 --> 00:41:44,530
container, they're going to 
slowly lose their potency. 

671
00:41:44,890 --> 00:41:48,570
Most people keep them in their 
freezer or make capsules or 

672
00:41:48,570 --> 00:41:50,050
whatever they're going to do, 
but. 

673
00:41:51,280 --> 00:41:55,720
It does slowly. 
If you had like if they if they 

674
00:41:55,720 --> 00:41:59,440
dried them out during the summer
or the fall or whatever they 

675
00:41:59,440 --> 00:42:02,640
could or spring they could have 
easily that would last. 

676
00:42:02,640 --> 00:42:05,920
I think you could probably get 
loose and genic you know 

677
00:42:05,960 --> 00:42:09,200
properties. 
I've I found old bags and you 

678
00:42:09,200 --> 00:42:11,560
know, 3-4 years old that still 
do something to you. 

679
00:42:11,600 --> 00:42:15,760
So yeah, of course in the winter
up there, they could have frozen

680
00:42:15,760 --> 00:42:17,350
them. 
That's true. 

681
00:42:17,510 --> 00:42:21,150
And if it was the same winter, 
the same year that they picked 

682
00:42:21,150 --> 00:42:22,830
them, I think it's absolutely 
possible. 

683
00:42:23,550 --> 00:42:25,710
Yeah, Chasing Mound Builders 
mentions honey. 

684
00:42:25,710 --> 00:42:27,270
That's a good way to preserve 
it, too. 

685
00:42:27,270 --> 00:42:28,750
You could make tincture. 
You could. 

686
00:42:28,750 --> 00:42:30,070
There's a lot of. 
Stuff. 

687
00:42:30,070 --> 00:42:32,110
I don't know when. 
When honey became a thing, they 

688
00:42:32,110 --> 00:42:38,950
had a a form of honey that they 
got from from Central America. 

689
00:42:39,750 --> 00:42:41,430
Yeah. 
We've had Tom Lane talking about

690
00:42:41,430 --> 00:42:44,070
that Black Bee or whatever, 
where that's right. 

691
00:42:44,390 --> 00:42:46,180
That's it, yeah. 
And that so. 

692
00:42:46,180 --> 00:42:49,340
But it's not honey like we know 
it but it might have the same 

693
00:42:49,340 --> 00:42:52,820
properties. 
I'm not sure but it's a but as 

694
00:42:52,820 --> 00:42:57,740
far as true honey from bees, I 
don't know when that became a a 

695
00:42:57,940 --> 00:43:03,220
part of their practice. 
So I had another question for PD

696
00:43:03,220 --> 00:43:05,020
on this, if I can ask it. 
Is that okay? 

697
00:43:05,640 --> 00:43:08,240
This is the Greg Little show. 
Go ahead. 

698
00:43:08,240 --> 00:43:10,040
No, it's not the no. 
It is. 

699
00:43:10,040 --> 00:43:11,160
No. 
Yeah, it is. 

700
00:43:11,160 --> 00:43:13,320
I'm happy. 
I'm like, listening to this. 

701
00:43:13,320 --> 00:43:16,840
Go ahead. 
All right, so, so, Honey locust.

702
00:43:17,520 --> 00:43:21,800
All right, so in in Hudson's 
book here, Hudson talks about 

703
00:43:21,800 --> 00:43:24,920
the honey locust and the making 
of tea out of the leaves. 

704
00:43:24,920 --> 00:43:27,280
Of course, he never mentions the
roots. 

705
00:43:27,520 --> 00:43:31,800
And of course Hudson's book is 
now 80 to 40 years old. 

706
00:43:32,610 --> 00:43:36,610
So in the in those forty years, 
I suspect there's a lot more 

707
00:43:36,970 --> 00:43:41,730
evidence that's come out. 
What are you aware of in the in 

708
00:43:41,730 --> 00:43:45,410
the literature where they talk 
about maybe finding evidence of 

709
00:43:45,410 --> 00:43:49,090
the use of the root bark of the 
honey locust? 

710
00:43:49,890 --> 00:43:52,690
So the best you know why. 
You know why I'm asking it? 

711
00:43:54,170 --> 00:43:58,370
The reason being that most most 
academics don't know this. 

712
00:43:58,690 --> 00:44:00,890
I know. 
It's only in one. 

713
00:44:01,260 --> 00:44:04,260
Source and that the source is 
not an academic source. 

714
00:44:04,900 --> 00:44:08,300
He tested it on himself and it's
a man that calls himself keeper 

715
00:44:08,300 --> 00:44:10,660
of the trout. 
And he wrote this book called 

716
00:44:10,660 --> 00:44:15,340
Some Simple Tryptamines where he
was basically trying everything 

717
00:44:15,340 --> 00:44:19,180
in the most mimosoides family, 
from Acacia to mimosas. 

718
00:44:19,500 --> 00:44:22,700
That everything he get his hands
on testing them to see if they 

719
00:44:22,700 --> 00:44:27,500
were psychoactive and he was 
testing them on himself and 

720
00:44:27,500 --> 00:44:30,380
through different lab 
techniques. 

721
00:44:30,820 --> 00:44:35,660
But he found it in the roots of 
Honey locust, which is Gladizia 

722
00:44:35,660 --> 00:44:38,140
triacantos. 
It's also known as Acacia 

723
00:44:38,140 --> 00:44:44,020
Americana, but it's the best. 
And I and I believe the earliest

724
00:44:44,020 --> 00:44:47,980
source is James Mooney. 
And you know all about James 

725
00:44:47,980 --> 00:44:54,100
Mooney when he's talking about, 
I believe it's he's talking 

726
00:44:54,100 --> 00:44:57,780
about the Navajo. 
I could be wrong though that. 

727
00:45:00,620 --> 00:45:05,220
No, they're they're in our area.
They're self selfeastern, but 

728
00:45:05,260 --> 00:45:07,500
he's talked. 
Manny wrote about the Cherokee 

729
00:45:07,500 --> 00:45:08,580
too. 
And Cherokee. 

730
00:45:09,380 --> 00:45:19,140
That's Cherokee, not the novel, 
and in it, first he says that he

731
00:45:19,140 --> 00:45:21,940
gives a couple of mids, and the 
myth it's in is called The 

732
00:45:21,940 --> 00:45:25,540
Gambler. 
But there's this. 

733
00:45:26,010 --> 00:45:28,810
The hero twins. 
The same hero twins that pop up 

734
00:45:28,810 --> 00:45:31,610
everywhere from South America to
Central America to all these 

735
00:45:31,610 --> 00:45:40,930
different native tribes. 
The myth is probably a what's 

736
00:45:40,930 --> 00:45:43,690
called a charter for an 
initiation ritual. 

737
00:45:43,690 --> 00:45:46,410
That would have been a very real
rite of passage that boys would 

738
00:45:46,410 --> 00:45:51,730
have went through, but the myth 
is that he's trying to find. 

739
00:45:52,310 --> 00:45:54,310
His father. 
And he finds out that his father

740
00:45:54,310 --> 00:46:00,230
is the son, God the son figure. 
You know it changes with the the

741
00:46:00,230 --> 00:46:02,670
way it's told Sometimes he's not
the son. 

742
00:46:02,670 --> 00:46:07,310
Sometimes he's just God and and 
it's I hate to use that word 

743
00:46:07,310 --> 00:46:09,590
because it's a very different 
way of thinking about it than 

744
00:46:10,310 --> 00:46:14,390
Westerners do today. 
But he approaches him, and he's 

745
00:46:14,390 --> 00:46:16,950
put through these rites of 
passage and. 

746
00:46:18,900 --> 00:46:22,660
The first Test is he has to lay 
down on this bed that he doesn't

747
00:46:22,660 --> 00:46:26,740
know is made of thorns from the 
Honey Locust and when that 

748
00:46:26,740 --> 00:46:33,740
doesn't kill him he has to go 
play the ball game with the 

749
00:46:33,740 --> 00:46:38,540
chunky game. 
I'm not sure if it's chunky or 

750
00:46:38,540 --> 00:46:40,820
if it's going to be the stick 
ball because that's not really 

751
00:46:40,820 --> 00:46:45,380
spelled out and Mooney, but he 
has to go play this the the ball

752
00:46:45,380 --> 00:46:50,920
game with his other sons. 
And in this his mother pulls him

753
00:46:50,920 --> 00:46:57,200
aside and tells him that they're
going to try and kill him during

754
00:46:57,200 --> 00:47:01,440
this game and he has to stop the
game by shooting his lightning 

755
00:47:01,440 --> 00:47:03,840
because you know the hero twins 
are Thunder and lightning 

756
00:47:03,960 --> 00:47:07,640
figures has to shoot his 
lightning at the honey locust 

757
00:47:07,640 --> 00:47:13,480
tree and when he does this the 
the his father will stop the 

758
00:47:13,480 --> 00:47:15,840
game because he doesn't want to 
lose that tree. 

759
00:47:16,560 --> 00:47:18,550
And now? 
In a different section of the 

760
00:47:18,550 --> 00:47:21,430
same study, Mooney talks about 
how they would make the the 

761
00:47:21,430 --> 00:47:27,110
sticks for the stickball game 
out of the honey locust. 

762
00:47:27,110 --> 00:47:29,750
And it would be particularly 
made from a honey locust that 

763
00:47:29,750 --> 00:47:32,590
had been struck by lightning 
because they believe that a 

764
00:47:32,590 --> 00:47:36,070
deity lived in it, which, excuse
me, was a lightning deity. 

765
00:47:36,670 --> 00:47:39,990
And they would also. 
And this is where where it 

766
00:47:39,990 --> 00:47:42,830
really starts to sound. 
It's like something's going on. 

767
00:47:43,480 --> 00:47:47,040
In addition to taking that ash 
from where the lightning strikes

768
00:47:47,040 --> 00:47:50,640
and drawing crosses on their 
shoulders, which is the what 

769
00:47:50,640 --> 00:47:57,520
they put on before they play 
this game, they take the roots 

770
00:47:57,520 --> 00:48:01,600
of the honey locust and chew 
them, and then they take the 

771
00:48:01,600 --> 00:48:06,440
spit and rub it all over their 
body so they're they're covering

772
00:48:06,440 --> 00:48:11,010
themselves and. 
And tryptamines and chewing on 

773
00:48:11,010 --> 00:48:13,450
it, definitely. 
Probably swallowing some in the 

774
00:48:13,450 --> 00:48:16,770
process. 
And then the final rite of 

775
00:48:16,770 --> 00:48:22,850
passage for this boy is he has 
to climb into a pot with that's 

776
00:48:22,850 --> 00:48:25,370
already has the roots of the 
honey locust in it and it's 

777
00:48:25,370 --> 00:48:30,290
going to boil him and it boils 
them and and kills them and and 

778
00:48:30,610 --> 00:48:33,050
he comes back to life. 
Or in some versions, it doesn't 

779
00:48:33,050 --> 00:48:34,610
kill him. 
It doesn't faze them at all, 

780
00:48:35,170 --> 00:48:37,240
but. 
The indication is that they're 

781
00:48:37,240 --> 00:48:40,160
boiling these roots already in 
this setting. 

782
00:48:40,360 --> 00:48:42,600
Now, as far as what the ritual 
would have looked like, this 

783
00:48:42,640 --> 00:48:46,240
this was a charter for there's 
no telling. 

784
00:48:46,240 --> 00:48:49,360
It could have been something as 
simple as a test of faith to see

785
00:48:49,360 --> 00:48:51,800
if they would get in the pot to 
be boiled. 

786
00:48:52,600 --> 00:48:55,760
Who knows? 
But that's the first indication 

787
00:48:55,760 --> 00:49:00,440
that we have that the roots are 
being a boiled and B smeared all

788
00:49:00,440 --> 00:49:06,750
over the body and C chewed on. 
And and again, if that was if 

789
00:49:06,750 --> 00:49:09,110
that, what else? 
It doesn't say anything about 

790
00:49:09,110 --> 00:49:11,390
other ingredients in that pot 
with the roots. 

791
00:49:12,390 --> 00:49:16,270
And there there are are gorgets 
that you can find, this what's 

792
00:49:16,270 --> 00:49:19,710
called the spaghetti style 
gorgets that have the boy in the

793
00:49:19,710 --> 00:49:22,070
pot with the roots. 
You can see him boiling in the 

794
00:49:22,070 --> 00:49:27,030
shell, but there's no indication
of other plants added to it. 

795
00:49:27,430 --> 00:49:30,910
But in the event that there 
were, if this was mixed with a 

796
00:49:30,910 --> 00:49:36,590
black drink ceremony, the the I 
Alex Vomitoria has trace amounts

797
00:49:36,590 --> 00:49:39,750
of Mao I's in it. 
Nicotianna Rustica has trace 

798
00:49:39,750 --> 00:49:43,790
amounts of Mao I's in it. 
The other plant that that grows 

799
00:49:43,790 --> 00:49:49,150
everywhere around here is Passa 
Flora Encarnada, the very alien 

800
00:49:49,150 --> 00:49:53,230
looking passion flower. 
It's loaded with Mao i's, so if 

801
00:49:53,230 --> 00:49:58,210
any of these were mixed with. 
That that honey locust the the 

802
00:49:58,210 --> 00:50:02,490
result would have been something
virtually indistinguishable from

803
00:50:02,490 --> 00:50:09,530
what we would call ayahuasca. 
And just so everybody knows, he 

804
00:50:09,570 --> 00:50:13,090
he released it on here, you 
know, last episode. 

805
00:50:13,290 --> 00:50:18,130
But the misawaska analog theory 
is definitely PD. 

806
00:50:18,130 --> 00:50:21,410
So if you see any psychedelic 
people out there, let us know 

807
00:50:21,410 --> 00:50:25,050
because they're straight up, you
know, trying to Jack that idea. 

808
00:50:25,720 --> 00:50:30,040
Well, thank you. 
I suspect it'll it'll get out of

809
00:50:30,040 --> 00:50:32,600
hand once once well. 
Let's just say there's already 

810
00:50:32,600 --> 00:50:34,400
people jacking ideas from 
people. 

811
00:50:34,400 --> 00:50:37,720
I see it all the time so. 
I get it all the time myself. 

812
00:50:39,520 --> 00:50:42,080
Greg's probably been victimized 
the most by the Jackie. 

813
00:50:42,400 --> 00:50:47,920
No, I am. 
I have been amazed at what Mr. 

814
00:50:47,920 --> 00:50:51,360
Newman here has has done in this
research. 

815
00:50:51,680 --> 00:50:55,030
And I've told him that he's been
very kind to me. 

816
00:50:55,030 --> 00:50:59,190
We met, I don't know, maybe a 
year ago, maybe something like 

817
00:50:59,190 --> 00:51:03,590
that, I don't know. 
But when you're my age, time 

818
00:51:03,590 --> 00:51:07,110
kind of does weird things, so 
it's hard to tell when something

819
00:51:07,110 --> 00:51:11,190
happened. 
But anyway, his research is 

820
00:51:11,190 --> 00:51:14,630
absolutely incredible. 
What he has uncovered with this,

821
00:51:14,990 --> 00:51:16,670
all these old myths he talks 
about. 

822
00:51:16,670 --> 00:51:20,630
I've got the the book that he's 
talking about with Moody's stuff

823
00:51:20,630 --> 00:51:23,960
on the Cherokee. 
I don't know how many pages that

824
00:51:23,960 --> 00:51:27,240
Moody's part is. 
These are, these are giant books

825
00:51:27,560 --> 00:51:30,760
put out by the Smithsonian's 
Bureau of Ethnology in the late 

826
00:51:30,760 --> 00:51:34,880
1800s. 
Most of them are 67800 pages 

827
00:51:34,880 --> 00:51:36,720
long. 
And Moody's and they're in, 

828
00:51:36,920 --> 00:51:41,720
they're in like 9 point type, 
which is it's it's a little 

829
00:51:41,720 --> 00:51:45,960
smaller than newspaper print, 
but the man has gone through all

830
00:51:45,960 --> 00:51:50,720
these stories of hundreds and 
hundreds of pages and pulled out

831
00:51:50,840 --> 00:51:54,520
these this mythology. 
And I've read this stuff too. 

832
00:51:54,520 --> 00:51:56,440
Here's where, here's what's 
incredible to me. 

833
00:51:56,440 --> 00:51:59,800
I've read all that stuff and 
it's so boggled my mind. 

834
00:51:59,800 --> 00:52:01,320
It's like that. 
I'm not going to pay any 

835
00:52:01,320 --> 00:52:04,120
attention to the mythology. 
I'm not paying attention to 

836
00:52:04,120 --> 00:52:06,240
that. 
I'm going to do exactly what the

837
00:52:06,240 --> 00:52:08,040
archaeologist did. 
I'll tell you what the 

838
00:52:08,040 --> 00:52:09,960
archaeologist did. 
They went out and they measured 

839
00:52:09,960 --> 00:52:12,080
mounds. 
They would dig into them. 

840
00:52:12,080 --> 00:52:14,760
They'd pull the pottery out. 
They get different styles of 

841
00:52:14,760 --> 00:52:18,470
pottery, figure out when they 
were made, figure out where the 

842
00:52:18,470 --> 00:52:22,270
cultures traded, tried to come 
up with some dates and so on. 

843
00:52:22,270 --> 00:52:28,030
And that was about it. 
And that is kind of the route 

844
00:52:28,030 --> 00:52:31,590
that I took too. 
I'd read the mythology, but 

845
00:52:31,590 --> 00:52:36,950
because it was so dense and hard
to understand and it really 

846
00:52:36,950 --> 00:52:40,910
takes somebody focusing. 
I mean, you have to mentally 

847
00:52:40,910 --> 00:52:44,960
focus And then, no, it's like 
the spaghetti that what he 

848
00:52:45,120 --> 00:52:48,280
called the gorget. 
The spaghetti gorgets have been 

849
00:52:48,280 --> 00:52:50,720
a mystery of what they are. 
They are shells. 

850
00:52:50,720 --> 00:52:54,080
They are carvings on shells. 
They're about this big around 

851
00:52:54,080 --> 00:52:56,520
and they have designs on them. 
They have two holes at the top. 

852
00:52:56,880 --> 00:53:01,240
And the the leaders of the tribe
or the important elite members 

853
00:53:01,240 --> 00:53:04,400
of the tribe would wear these 
suspended around their neck and 

854
00:53:04,400 --> 00:53:07,240
they had symbols on them. 
Well, the spaghetti gorgets had 

855
00:53:07,240 --> 00:53:12,540
people on them, or images of 
caricatures of people, and there

856
00:53:12,540 --> 00:53:16,860
are these odd squiggly shapes 
all over that look like 

857
00:53:16,860 --> 00:53:18,180
spaghetti. 
That's why they were called 

858
00:53:18,180 --> 00:53:21,460
spaghetti gorgets. 
Well, I I looked at those many, 

859
00:53:21,460 --> 00:53:25,260
many years ago, decades ago, and
it's kind of like nobody knew 

860
00:53:25,260 --> 00:53:27,740
what they were. 
None of the archaeologists 

861
00:53:27,740 --> 00:53:33,020
speculated on any of that. 
They had no idea none. 0 Yet the

862
00:53:33,020 --> 00:53:37,940
Harris PD who by studying other 
people's stuff, by really 

863
00:53:37,940 --> 00:53:42,590
digging into the details, has 
put all this together and put it

864
00:53:42,590 --> 00:53:45,870
all together with the actual 
substances they use because up 

865
00:53:45,870 --> 00:53:49,270
to this time, the substances 
they used were different forms 

866
00:53:49,270 --> 00:53:52,430
of tobacco. 
We knew they used hallucinogenic

867
00:53:52,430 --> 00:53:55,310
mushrooms. 
That's been known since, well, a

868
00:53:55,310 --> 00:53:58,670
long time. 
And we knew they made different 

869
00:53:58,670 --> 00:54:02,070
kinds of tea out of all the the 
natural stuff out there. 

870
00:54:02,710 --> 00:54:07,280
And that was about it. 
There really was not a lot of 

871
00:54:07,280 --> 00:54:10,440
understanding about what they 
were doing in the rituals and 

872
00:54:10,440 --> 00:54:13,520
what the substances were, so 
I've got to hand it to him. 

873
00:54:14,000 --> 00:54:16,640
He's opened my mind a great deal
and I've told him that. 

874
00:54:16,640 --> 00:54:19,920
I've told him that I've learned 
a far more from him than he 

875
00:54:20,160 --> 00:54:21,960
learned from me and never will 
learn from me. 

876
00:54:21,960 --> 00:54:22,840
I don't. 
Think so? 

877
00:54:22,840 --> 00:54:26,440
You were the person who turned 
me on to the whole phenomenon I 

878
00:54:26,440 --> 00:54:29,680
had. 
I had never looked twice at the 

879
00:54:29,680 --> 00:54:32,800
Southeastern Ceremonial Complex 
until I read your book On the 

880
00:54:32,800 --> 00:54:36,160
Path. 
And then Graham Hancock hadn't. 

881
00:54:36,160 --> 00:54:37,880
Neither. 
Graham Hancock hadn't neither. 

882
00:54:37,880 --> 00:54:41,240
People are not all that aware of
it, although if they'd read his 

883
00:54:41,240 --> 00:54:44,680
book and go to the very end of 
it and read like a paragraph, 

884
00:54:44,680 --> 00:54:47,440
they'll see Hancock read The 
Path of Souls. 

885
00:54:47,440 --> 00:54:51,200
And he had the Mountain 
Encyclopedia, and that was his 

886
00:54:51,200 --> 00:54:55,400
introduction to these things. 
But that's a relatively simple 

887
00:54:55,400 --> 00:54:57,800
idea. 
The Path of Souls is relatively 

888
00:54:57,800 --> 00:54:59,760
simple, and I didn't come up 
with that. 

889
00:55:00,340 --> 00:55:04,060
I simply kept up with what the 
ethnographers have been doing in

890
00:55:04,060 --> 00:55:08,020
recent times and popularized it,
and I referenced that I don't. 

891
00:55:08,020 --> 00:55:10,020
I didn't come up with anything 
new in this. 

892
00:55:10,860 --> 00:55:12,460
Nothing. 
You laid. 

893
00:55:12,460 --> 00:55:15,100
It out in a way that was much 
easier to grasp. 

894
00:55:15,100 --> 00:55:20,340
Well, I I went back to you know 
F Kent Riley and and George 

895
00:55:20,340 --> 00:55:25,020
Lankford and all those major 
guys and I think your 

896
00:55:25,020 --> 00:55:28,300
presentation of it. 
There's this is spread around. 

897
00:55:28,300 --> 00:55:31,660
It's modeled, I know. 
Then you got to you have to 

898
00:55:31,660 --> 00:55:34,420
piece it together. 
You, you pieced it together into

899
00:55:34,740 --> 00:55:40,540
a a coherent, concise picture 
that just got my mind reeling 

900
00:55:40,540 --> 00:55:43,260
when I was reading a book. 
Well, I I appreciate it. 

901
00:55:43,260 --> 00:55:47,780
But I I remember standing on a 
mound with you and in downtown 

902
00:55:47,780 --> 00:55:52,980
Memphis, DeSoto, man. 
And I was explaining, and I 

903
00:55:52,980 --> 00:55:57,240
remember the time it happened. 
And I said, okay, the soul jumps

904
00:55:57,240 --> 00:55:59,880
to the West. 
And I, because I I've been down 

905
00:55:59,880 --> 00:56:03,680
there at night or early in the 
morning watching Orion's nebula 

906
00:56:03,680 --> 00:56:06,920
sink into that western horizon. 
I used to live on the river 

907
00:56:06,920 --> 00:56:08,880
downtown. 
And I watched this for over a 

908
00:56:08,880 --> 00:56:10,800
year, happening while I was 
writing the book. 

909
00:56:10,800 --> 00:56:13,640
Every night I'd be out at 3:00 
and 4:00 AM walking, and then 

910
00:56:13,640 --> 00:56:16,720
I'd watch Orion's nebula sink. 
And I remember telling you that.

911
00:56:17,280 --> 00:56:20,080
And I called it an ogi. 
I said it went into an OGI. 

912
00:56:20,560 --> 00:56:23,640
And you added something to it 
that I wish I'd put in the book 

913
00:56:23,640 --> 00:56:27,790
back then. 
And it was the idea that an Ogi 

914
00:56:27,790 --> 00:56:30,790
is a portal. 
It is an Ogi, but it's not a 

915
00:56:30,790 --> 00:56:33,950
portal to anywhere. 
It is simply like a shell. 

916
00:56:33,950 --> 00:56:37,670
You're you were correct and what
you said, it allows the soul to 

917
00:56:37,670 --> 00:56:42,430
be tucked away into the cell, 
this this shell or this, this 

918
00:56:44,070 --> 00:56:47,950
container that then goes through
the underworld and come up, 

919
00:56:47,950 --> 00:56:52,340
comes up the next night and the 
soul can hop on the Milky Way. 

920
00:56:52,340 --> 00:56:55,460
That's the path of soul stuff 
for people that don't know what 

921
00:56:55,460 --> 00:56:58,260
we're talking about here. 
But I remember that and when you

922
00:56:58,260 --> 00:57:02,980
said that about the cup, it had 
never occurred to me that that 

923
00:57:02,980 --> 00:57:06,060
is what is on a lot of the 
images of the Path of Souls. 

924
00:57:06,420 --> 00:57:11,620
It is depicting that cup, it's 
depicting that specific portal, 

925
00:57:12,460 --> 00:57:15,260
not as a place that you go 
through and out. 

926
00:57:15,260 --> 00:57:16,940
Because we knew that wasn't the 
case. 

927
00:57:16,940 --> 00:57:20,530
It simply held the soul until 
the next night when it could get

928
00:57:20,530 --> 00:57:23,130
on the Milky Way and then of 
course travel north and make it 

929
00:57:23,130 --> 00:57:27,130
to Cygnus. 
But anyway, I'm sorry, I'm, I 

930
00:57:27,130 --> 00:57:31,130
did write it up simply, but I 
missed a lot and I appreciate. 

931
00:57:31,130 --> 00:57:35,050
I think we were meant to meet 
with that and the first time we 

932
00:57:35,050 --> 00:57:37,450
met was on an Indian mound in 
downtown Memphis. 

933
00:57:38,610 --> 00:57:42,180
A weird one at that. 
Yes, a very strange one. 

934
00:57:42,180 --> 00:57:44,820
It's one of the strangest ones 
in the country, actually, With 

935
00:57:44,820 --> 00:57:48,260
that, with that rounded back, 
It's a square mound that has a 

936
00:57:48,260 --> 00:57:50,300
rounded back. 
It's bizarre, actually. 

937
00:57:50,980 --> 00:57:54,500
But anyway, so I'm rambling. 
Sorry, I'll shut up for a 

938
00:57:54,500 --> 00:57:55,300
minute. 
No. 

939
00:57:55,300 --> 00:57:58,900
You're good, you're good. 
And actually, I appreciate PD 

940
00:57:58,900 --> 00:58:01,540
too, because you kind of brought
Greg because I remember the 

941
00:58:01,540 --> 00:58:05,180
first few times we had him on, I
tried to talk about this kind of

942
00:58:05,180 --> 00:58:08,300
stuff and I just felt a little 
hesitation. 

943
00:58:08,650 --> 00:58:11,570
Maybe it's because I didn't 
bring the research that you've 

944
00:58:11,570 --> 00:58:15,330
done, you know, cuz I know he's 
obviously he understands 

945
00:58:15,330 --> 00:58:17,810
psychopharmacology and Native 
Americans and stuff like that, 

946
00:58:18,090 --> 00:58:21,330
but I don't I didn't know about 
like the Yao PA and the black 

947
00:58:21,330 --> 00:58:23,330
drink and all the connections 
and all the stuff. 

948
00:58:23,740 --> 00:58:26,140
I was just merely asking him 
about like stuff that they had 

949
00:58:26,140 --> 00:58:27,700
found. 
So I think that with your 

950
00:58:27,700 --> 00:58:29,820
research and everything, 
everything's kind of, you know, 

951
00:58:29,820 --> 00:58:32,780
come together where like he 
said, you guys, you two are 

952
00:58:32,780 --> 00:58:35,460
meant to meet between his 
knowledge of the metaphysics and

953
00:58:35,460 --> 00:58:38,340
the rituals and stuff like that,
and your knowledge and the 

954
00:58:38,340 --> 00:58:41,100
mounds and then your knowledge 
of the psychoactive compounds 

955
00:58:41,100 --> 00:58:42,980
and all that stuff. 
So it's. 

956
00:58:42,980 --> 00:58:46,780
A big deal and I think it it's 
always been relevant, but this 

957
00:58:46,780 --> 00:58:52,220
stuff just makes it that much 
more relevant and it and it. 

958
00:58:52,700 --> 00:58:58,700
Adds A dimension of complexity 
to what is largely seen as just 

959
00:58:58,700 --> 00:59:02,900
kind of simple people as simple 
tribes and and it's not simple. 

960
00:59:03,340 --> 00:59:08,500
It's very complex advanced ways 
of thinking and and acting and 

961
00:59:08,500 --> 00:59:12,620
interacting. 
I'm just amazed every time I I 

962
00:59:12,620 --> 00:59:15,420
learn anything about these 
cultures. 

963
00:59:15,420 --> 00:59:18,220
Now I'm still, I'm still 
learning about the Southwestern.

964
00:59:19,120 --> 00:59:22,160
And stuff, you know that it's 
like a whole nother world. 

965
00:59:22,160 --> 00:59:24,000
There's a lot of crossover. 
But when you move from the 

966
00:59:24,000 --> 00:59:27,600
southeast to the southwest, it's
just it's so different. 

967
00:59:28,400 --> 00:59:31,520
But I'm seeing, I'm seeing the 
same thing with the Southwestern

968
00:59:31,520 --> 00:59:33,120
stuff. 
It's just as complex as the 

969
00:59:33,120 --> 00:59:37,480
Southeastern natives, but it it 
blows my mind. 

970
00:59:38,440 --> 00:59:42,640
So there's something that I want
to bring up here which Greg and 

971
00:59:42,640 --> 00:59:48,000
I kind of touched on before you 
jumped on the pre call PD which 

972
00:59:48,000 --> 00:59:49,930
is. 
So this is like a depiction of 

973
00:59:49,930 --> 00:59:52,130
one of the ceremonies here. 
I'll pull up the better one. 

974
00:59:53,130 --> 00:59:56,090
So you have the men sitting 
around there, and then you have 

975
00:59:56,090 --> 00:59:58,010
the women in the bottom right 
corner. 

976
00:59:58,010 --> 01:00:01,490
They're making the black drink. 
And you can kind of see the 

977
01:00:01,490 --> 01:00:03,610
shell, I think. 
Or no, this is not the one with 

978
01:00:03,610 --> 01:00:04,810
the shelter. 
Yeah. 

979
01:00:04,810 --> 01:00:08,690
Yeah. 
So my question is, I don't know 

980
01:00:08,690 --> 01:00:11,130
a ton about the Native American 
stuff, but I do know a ton about

981
01:00:11,130 --> 01:00:15,690
the soma, homa, indo, Iranian 
migrations and all that kind of 

982
01:00:15,690 --> 01:00:19,140
stuff. 
The women prepared the soma 

983
01:00:19,140 --> 01:00:23,860
Homa, women prepared the 
Elucidian mysteries, Kekeon. 

984
01:00:25,540 --> 01:00:29,220
Do you think that that's, you 
know, there's some rhyme to that

985
01:00:29,220 --> 01:00:31,460
reason why in all these cultures
the women are preparing these 

986
01:00:31,460 --> 01:00:33,580
psychoactive compounds? 
Or like, why do you think that 

987
01:00:33,580 --> 01:00:37,420
is? 
That's a good question. 

988
01:00:37,460 --> 01:00:41,620
I mean, I don't have an answer 
for that specifically. 

989
01:00:42,540 --> 01:00:45,260
Now. 
Have you ever heard of Chicha? 

990
01:00:47,240 --> 01:00:48,920
No, I have not. 
A corn. 

991
01:00:49,000 --> 01:00:52,440
A corn beer that that was 
produced in Central America. 

992
01:00:54,160 --> 01:00:57,680
I'll tell you a cool story and 
that and they may be related. 

993
01:01:01,400 --> 01:01:03,120
You know the Brewer? 
Dogfish Head? 

994
01:01:04,680 --> 01:01:08,080
Yeah, that was like one of the 
first dank beers circulating, 

995
01:01:08,480 --> 01:01:11,360
Yeah. 
They they used to have a a TV 

996
01:01:11,360 --> 01:01:13,560
show. 
They they didn't make many 

997
01:01:13,560 --> 01:01:17,540
episodes. 
But a TV show, just about some 

998
01:01:17,540 --> 01:01:20,060
of the more exotic beers they 
were brewing and they decided 

999
01:01:20,060 --> 01:01:24,300
they were going to make chicha. 
And traditionally chicha is made

1000
01:01:24,300 --> 01:01:28,060
by chewing the corn up and 
spitting it out into a container

1001
01:01:28,060 --> 01:01:31,820
and letting it ferment. 
So he's got all the guys in his 

1002
01:01:32,260 --> 01:01:36,860
brewery chewing corn for hours 
and spitting it out in these, 

1003
01:01:37,220 --> 01:01:41,860
you know, it's tearing up their 
mouths and and they leave it to 

1004
01:01:41,860 --> 01:01:44,540
ferment and come back and 
there's no fermentation, 

1005
01:01:44,620 --> 01:01:48,640
Nothing's happened. 
And they're they're really 

1006
01:01:48,640 --> 01:01:52,960
perplexed by this. 
So they decide to travel down 

1007
01:01:53,120 --> 01:01:58,560
and observe them making it in 
the in a natural setting and the

1008
01:01:58,560 --> 01:02:02,160
indigenous setting and there are
no men making it. 

1009
01:02:02,280 --> 01:02:05,280
It's only women. 
And it wasn't until they they 

1010
01:02:05,320 --> 01:02:07,200
they told the women they tried 
to make it and they thought it 

1011
01:02:07,200 --> 01:02:09,240
was hilarious. 
They said no, women have to do 

1012
01:02:09,240 --> 01:02:12,800
it doesn't work if men do it. 
And it turns out that there's an

1013
01:02:12,840 --> 01:02:15,880
enzyme. 
In the saliva of a female that 

1014
01:02:15,880 --> 01:02:18,160
is not present in the saliva of 
a male. 

1015
01:02:18,760 --> 01:02:22,320
And this caused the reaction 
that results in chicha. 

1016
01:02:24,120 --> 01:02:27,040
Now granted, I don't know of any
reaction like that happening in 

1017
01:02:27,040 --> 01:02:30,280
this case, or even if they're 
chewing the stuff up, but it may

1018
01:02:30,280 --> 01:02:34,800
have begun A tradition of women 
making it, men drinking it. 

1019
01:02:38,120 --> 01:02:39,600
Look at those designs on his 
body. 

1020
01:02:40,080 --> 01:02:41,880
So somebody's asking about 
what's what he's holding. 

1021
01:02:41,880 --> 01:02:45,360
That's that shell, that spiral. 
So they use like a conch, shell 

1022
01:02:45,360 --> 01:02:49,360
or giant. 
Conch shells, and that's a small

1023
01:02:49,360 --> 01:02:51,840
one. 
I mean they are huge. 

1024
01:02:51,840 --> 01:02:53,800
They get them from the used to 
get them from the Gulf of 

1025
01:02:53,800 --> 01:02:55,440
Mexico. 
They don't even grow that large 

1026
01:02:55,760 --> 01:02:58,600
anymore. 
But they they are huge. 

1027
01:02:58,600 --> 01:03:01,440
When you see one in person, they
would have held an an 

1028
01:03:02,680 --> 01:03:11,040
intimidating amount of liquid. 
One of the Back in the 1890s, 

1029
01:03:11,040 --> 01:03:16,480
Clarence Bloomfield Moore 
excavated a mound It's not far 

1030
01:03:16,480 --> 01:03:19,960
from Jacksonville called Mount 
Royal. 

1031
01:03:20,360 --> 01:03:27,160
And in that mound they recovered
nearly 300 of these welk shells.

1032
01:03:27,880 --> 01:03:31,720
And then they after that. 
In recent years they have found 

1033
01:03:31,720 --> 01:03:36,190
that the ones in Spiro. 
And the ones that were actually 

1034
01:03:36,190 --> 01:03:40,790
in Cahokia came from that exact 
area and probably came from the 

1035
01:03:40,790 --> 01:03:43,670
same source. 
So they were moving those 

1036
01:03:43,670 --> 01:03:46,110
around. 
Some of these have been I saw 

1037
01:03:46,990 --> 01:03:50,710
earlier today when I was 
reading, I saw that some of 

1038
01:03:50,710 --> 01:03:54,390
these actually were in the 
Southwest and they were all the 

1039
01:03:54,390 --> 01:03:59,990
way up in Wisconsin mounds and 
and Michigan all the way up just

1040
01:03:59,990 --> 01:04:03,340
below the Great Lakes. 
They found these same Welk 

1041
01:04:03,340 --> 01:04:05,100
shells. 
Oh yeah, we've got, we got the 

1042
01:04:05,100 --> 01:04:06,860
shells here. 
I'm using them right now. 

1043
01:04:08,940 --> 01:04:12,860
They they like the lightning 
welk because it spirals to the 

1044
01:04:12,860 --> 01:04:15,660
left. 
You, if you look at most shells,

1045
01:04:16,660 --> 01:04:19,300
conk shells like that. 
The spiral is to the right. 

1046
01:04:19,620 --> 01:04:22,780
But this one certain kind 
spirals to the left, and that's 

1047
01:04:22,780 --> 01:04:25,860
what they preferred. 
And the connection of that has a

1048
01:04:25,860 --> 01:04:30,270
lot to do with left handedness. 
Used in these rituals 

1049
01:04:30,950 --> 01:04:36,230
particularly associated with 
with bear one of their manitous 

1050
01:04:36,230 --> 01:04:39,790
or minitos, which are kind of 
their their spirits or gods. 

1051
01:04:40,510 --> 01:04:45,750
But bears. 
For example, in the Ojibwa they 

1052
01:04:45,750 --> 01:04:50,590
tell a story about how a lot of 
the drugs that they use, the 

1053
01:04:50,590 --> 01:04:54,030
medicines they use, they learned
about by watching bears from a 

1054
01:04:54,030 --> 01:04:57,110
distance, and bears are 
notorious for seeking out. 

1055
01:04:57,640 --> 01:05:04,200
Plants that have intoxicating 
properties like the cocaine 

1056
01:05:04,200 --> 01:05:07,080
bear, you know, like that's a 
true story because they like 

1057
01:05:07,480 --> 01:05:10,600
they can, they can find them and
they like to use these, these 

1058
01:05:10,640 --> 01:05:16,440
drugs. 
But the bear figure he he's 

1059
01:05:17,160 --> 01:05:20,840
associated with grizzly man. 
Greg, you know that pipe, the 

1060
01:05:20,840 --> 01:05:25,520
grizzly man pipe. 
And he is particularly 

1061
01:05:25,520 --> 01:05:29,000
associated with the plea 80s the
Yeah, there you go. 

1062
01:05:30,120 --> 01:05:33,800
The Plea 80s This is the genuine
artifact. 

1063
01:05:34,720 --> 01:05:39,200
No, really, Doctor Greg's got 
his Kinican nick in there. 

1064
01:05:41,360 --> 01:05:48,280
Sorry, he's associated with the 
Plea 80s and for them, their 

1065
01:05:48,280 --> 01:05:52,160
name for Plea 80s was He Who 
Holds a deer head in his Left 

1066
01:05:52,160 --> 01:05:55,030
Hand. 
And on the the other form of the

1067
01:05:55,030 --> 01:05:57,550
grizzly manpipe where he's 
kneeling, he's got the deer head

1068
01:05:57,550 --> 01:06:00,590
in his hand. 
He's got the the teeth in it for

1069
01:06:00,630 --> 01:06:05,830
earrings. 
He's he the the left handedness 

1070
01:06:06,310 --> 01:06:08,470
is associated specifically with 
this. 

1071
01:06:08,470 --> 01:06:09,910
Well that's why he's 
left-handed. 

1072
01:06:09,910 --> 01:06:13,070
There's some connection with 
bear and these shells and that 

1073
01:06:13,070 --> 01:06:18,310
the left-handed thing also comes
about because there there's a a 

1074
01:06:18,310 --> 01:06:21,670
myth they tell about how these 
hunters are coming in and 

1075
01:06:21,670 --> 01:06:23,750
they're. 
They're coming into this village

1076
01:06:23,750 --> 01:06:27,110
of bears and they're going to 
shoot them. 

1077
01:06:27,390 --> 01:06:33,350
And one of the bears hears about
it and he scrambles to get his 

1078
01:06:33,870 --> 01:06:36,950
his slippers on, his moccasins 
on, but he puts them on the 

1079
01:06:36,950 --> 01:06:41,630
wrong feet and runs away and he 
becomes the ancestor that all 

1080
01:06:41,630 --> 01:06:42,950
the, I think all the other bears
die. 

1081
01:06:42,950 --> 01:06:46,470
He's the one that's left and all
the new bears come from him. 

1082
01:06:46,830 --> 01:06:49,630
So because he put his slippers 
on backwards, that's how they. 

1083
01:06:50,300 --> 01:06:53,860
Explain why bears feet turn a 
different direction than other 

1084
01:06:53,860 --> 01:06:58,260
animals than humans. 
Their their left shoe is on 

1085
01:06:58,260 --> 01:07:01,980
their right foot and vice versa.
But it introduced this whole 

1086
01:07:02,340 --> 01:07:05,540
practice of left hand 
associations. 

1087
01:07:06,060 --> 01:07:07,900
That's weird, bro. 
It's a synchronicity. 

1088
01:07:07,900 --> 01:07:12,100
My nickname in high school was 
Bear given to me by Maurice, and

1089
01:07:12,100 --> 01:07:13,740
I'm left-handed. 
So yeah. 

1090
01:07:13,740 --> 01:07:17,500
That's you're the bear man. 
You descend from that bear. 

1091
01:07:20,840 --> 01:07:24,600
So the other interesting so we 
didn't really discuss it but so 

1092
01:07:24,960 --> 01:07:29,200
they don't use the berries right
from that Yao pon holly. 

1093
01:07:29,200 --> 01:07:31,200
So here's what the berries look 
like. 

1094
01:07:31,200 --> 01:07:35,120
But I read don't they take the 
leaves and the twigs and then 

1095
01:07:35,120 --> 01:07:40,560
they keep boiling it down till 
it becomes like a blackish goose

1096
01:07:40,600 --> 01:07:42,240
you roast? 
It first you have to yeah, yeah,

1097
01:07:42,240 --> 01:07:44,160
you roast. 
They said it like a like a like 

1098
01:07:44,160 --> 01:07:46,960
a coffee bean or yeah, like take
our box leading pot or 

1099
01:07:46,960 --> 01:07:48,800
something. 
That's exactly right. 

1100
01:07:48,840 --> 01:07:50,720
And then they they don't use the
berries. 

1101
01:07:50,720 --> 01:07:53,800
The berries are actually a 
purgative. 

1102
01:07:53,880 --> 01:07:56,440
You eat the berries, you go. 
I heard they're toxic, it says. 

1103
01:07:56,480 --> 01:07:58,440
And I don't know if this is 
true, Online it says it can. 

1104
01:07:58,560 --> 01:08:01,000
You can go into liver failure if
you just. 

1105
01:08:01,080 --> 01:08:04,000
I wouldn't doubt it, You know, 
it's true of a lot of berries, 

1106
01:08:04,960 --> 01:08:07,880
but they would just use the 
leaves and the small twigs. 

1107
01:08:07,880 --> 01:08:10,120
Not the big branches, but the 
small twigs. 

1108
01:08:11,040 --> 01:08:14,040
They'd roast them. 
There are a couple of videos you

1109
01:08:14,040 --> 01:08:17,080
can look up with people doing it
in the wild like camping and 

1110
01:08:17,359 --> 01:08:19,590
and. 
Coming up on Y'all Pawn and and 

1111
01:08:19,590 --> 01:08:24,630
roasting it in a in a a metal 
bowl or some kind of receptacle 

1112
01:08:24,630 --> 01:08:28,390
and then making the tea out of 
it and it tastes great. 

1113
01:08:28,670 --> 01:08:33,069
You know you it's not grassy it,
it tastes like a tea. 

1114
01:08:33,069 --> 01:08:36,270
It's very white. 
Now of course the concentrations

1115
01:08:36,270 --> 01:08:39,630
at which they were boiling it 
to, I think it would, you know, 

1116
01:08:39,630 --> 01:08:44,149
it's almost like a syrup and it 
was probably pretty gnarly. 

1117
01:08:44,840 --> 01:08:46,399
But yeah, I mean, it's a 
nomadic, right? 

1118
01:08:46,399 --> 01:08:48,279
It's making people barf in the 
photo. 

1119
01:08:49,319 --> 01:08:53,359
Not if you don't put the the 
drugs with it that cause it to 

1120
01:08:53,359 --> 01:08:55,160
be an enematic. 
It doesn't do that. 

1121
01:08:55,160 --> 01:08:59,109
OK, so so but the Yao Pond? 
That's what contains this, like,

1122
01:08:59,109 --> 01:09:01,830
super high dose of caffeine, 
correct, once it's been 

1123
01:09:01,870 --> 01:09:04,350
decarboxylated. 
And monoamine oxidase 

1124
01:09:04,350 --> 01:09:07,350
inhibitors. 
But it also contains theobromine

1125
01:09:07,350 --> 01:09:09,950
which is not good right? 
In large amounts, this. 

1126
01:09:09,990 --> 01:09:13,830
Is in chocolate that shows up in
Yeah, that's actually. 

1127
01:09:13,830 --> 01:09:16,710
Most people think chocolates. 
What causes dogs to go into It's

1128
01:09:16,710 --> 01:09:19,750
actually the theobromine. 
Large amounts of theobromine is 

1129
01:09:19,750 --> 01:09:20,710
what causes that. 
That's. 

1130
01:09:20,710 --> 01:09:26,510
What they found in the pictures 
and at Chaco Canyon, I think it 

1131
01:09:26,510 --> 01:09:32,390
was in the room. 1830 I think 
there's an 8 in it, but they 

1132
01:09:32,390 --> 01:09:39,750
found all of these different 
tall cups with specific designs 

1133
01:09:39,750 --> 01:09:43,109
on them that looked very similar
to the cups they used for the 

1134
01:09:43,109 --> 01:09:45,310
chocolate ceremonies down in 
South America. 

1135
01:09:45,630 --> 01:09:51,189
But this is in Chaco Canyon, you
know, and and and America's 

1136
01:09:51,189 --> 01:09:53,569
North America, so. 
So. 

1137
01:09:54,890 --> 01:09:57,370
You find. 
That do you find that they did 

1138
01:09:57,370 --> 01:10:02,930
the same thing on their pottery 
where the designs on the pottery

1139
01:10:02,930 --> 01:10:07,530
in the southwest were intended 
to be a way to pass along the 

1140
01:10:07,530 --> 01:10:11,050
information of what's supposed 
to be put in that pottery? 

1141
01:10:11,850 --> 01:10:14,810
Absolutely. 
And you're the first person that

1142
01:10:14,810 --> 01:10:17,330
ever that I ever heard explained
that too. 

1143
01:10:18,130 --> 01:10:21,210
And you had a brilliant way of 
saying it, or of writing it. 

1144
01:10:21,980 --> 01:10:27,100
Which I probably couldn't, 
couldn't even explain myself. 

1145
01:10:27,100 --> 01:10:30,540
Well, I could explain it, but 
not as simply as you did, but I 

1146
01:10:30,540 --> 01:10:34,020
found that pretty brilliant too.
But you think they're but it 

1147
01:10:34,020 --> 01:10:35,700
what you've seen in their 
pottery. 

1148
01:10:35,700 --> 01:10:41,140
The designs did stipulate a way 
for the information to be passed

1149
01:10:41,140 --> 01:10:44,180
along about what these pots are 
used for, so they used to pots 

1150
01:10:44,180 --> 01:10:45,500
for the same stuff over and 
over. 

1151
01:10:45,820 --> 01:10:46,620
That's right. 
Yeah. 

1152
01:10:46,860 --> 01:10:49,700
And specific vessels for 
specific compounds and. 

1153
01:10:50,650 --> 01:10:55,170
You got to think, a group of 
people that don't have a written

1154
01:10:55,170 --> 01:11:00,570
language. 
I mean, and it's hard to say 

1155
01:11:00,570 --> 01:11:03,050
that too, because like with the 
middle, we win. 

1156
01:11:03,050 --> 01:11:05,530
They have a written language, 
but it's not universal. 

1157
01:11:06,450 --> 01:11:09,850
They know how to write an idea 
down on their Birch bark 

1158
01:11:09,850 --> 01:11:13,170
scrolls, but the person who 
wrote it has to explain to you 

1159
01:11:13,170 --> 01:11:15,770
what it means. 
Nobody else could pick it up and

1160
01:11:15,770 --> 01:11:17,660
read it. 
So it's not a language in the 

1161
01:11:17,660 --> 01:11:20,660
way we would think about it. 
So even though there there was a

1162
01:11:20,660 --> 01:11:23,980
written language, it wasn't one 
that anybody could pick up and 

1163
01:11:23,980 --> 01:11:26,780
know. 
But if you make the vessel 

1164
01:11:27,100 --> 01:11:31,660
specific to the contents, either
in shape, the way you've 

1165
01:11:31,660 --> 01:11:36,300
constructed it or in the 
painting the design on it, then 

1166
01:11:36,700 --> 01:11:41,340
it becomes a physical 
representation mimicking the 

1167
01:11:41,340 --> 01:11:43,460
thing they put in it. 
So for what? 

1168
01:11:43,460 --> 01:11:45,510
The detura. 
There are a lot of different 

1169
01:11:45,510 --> 01:11:48,550
cases where they use detour 
depending on the context changes

1170
01:11:48,550 --> 01:11:51,030
the vessel. 
You know, you'll see some that 

1171
01:11:51,030 --> 01:11:55,110
have the old woman, the 
hunchback dwarf with the knobs 

1172
01:11:55,110 --> 01:11:58,910
all over. 
Those knobs are are in an 

1173
01:11:59,310 --> 01:12:03,430
attempt to mimic the spikes all 
over the detour seed pods. 

1174
01:12:05,430 --> 01:12:07,310
And yeah, that's one right 
there. 

1175
01:12:07,830 --> 01:12:10,030
Yeah, So what? 
They use that to bash it. 

1176
01:12:11,130 --> 01:12:14,610
No, that's they're drinking the 
detura out of the okay. 

1177
01:12:14,610 --> 01:12:15,410
I got you, got you. 
They. 

1178
01:12:15,730 --> 01:12:19,570
Want to have one certain type of
experience, but Detura is used 

1179
01:12:19,570 --> 01:12:22,770
in a lot of different context, 
so you'll see different vessels.

1180
01:12:23,090 --> 01:12:28,530
Another one that is housed at 
Gilcrease Museum in Oklahoma. 

1181
01:12:29,130 --> 01:12:34,330
It's got the spiral on the front
and then the jagged kind of 

1182
01:12:34,530 --> 01:12:37,800
things coming down that. 
They now recognize as the 

1183
01:12:37,800 --> 01:12:41,760
proboscis and the wing pattern 
of the tobacco moth that that 

1184
01:12:41,800 --> 01:12:43,800
feeds only on tobacco and 
datura. 

1185
01:12:44,160 --> 01:12:46,960
So this tobacco moth, even in 
their mythology becomes an 

1186
01:12:46,960 --> 01:12:50,640
indicator for datura use. 
So. 

1187
01:12:51,680 --> 01:12:56,800
He's. 
I can't remember the Singleton, 

1188
01:12:56,800 --> 01:13:00,520
Eric Singleton I think is who 
did that that that study. 

1189
01:13:01,120 --> 01:13:03,960
But they they tested the bottle.
And sure enough, it tested 

1190
01:13:03,960 --> 01:13:06,350
positive. 
For datura and that was the 

1191
01:13:06,350 --> 01:13:11,710
first real clear argument that 
said yes this when we see this 

1192
01:13:11,710 --> 01:13:14,510
moth we're looking at the 
possible that the use of datura.

1193
01:13:14,990 --> 01:13:19,510
What what I'm wondering is were 
they also using the moths? 

1194
01:13:19,870 --> 01:13:24,550
Because these, the butterflies 
and moths, will feed on certain 

1195
01:13:24,550 --> 01:13:26,670
toxic plants that make them 
bitter. 

1196
01:13:27,340 --> 01:13:31,140
And even toxic to animals, their
to their predators. 

1197
01:13:31,740 --> 01:13:34,420
And they do this to deter them 
from eating them, from wanting 

1198
01:13:34,420 --> 01:13:36,260
to eat them. 
Well, that means they're 

1199
01:13:36,260 --> 01:13:39,780
retaining the alkaloids in their
body even after they go through 

1200
01:13:39,780 --> 01:13:42,780
metamorphosis. 
So it made me wonder, were they 

1201
01:13:42,780 --> 01:13:46,740
using the malls because we know 
that they were using the worms, 

1202
01:13:46,740 --> 01:13:50,500
the tobacco horn worms that they
pick off the plants. 

1203
01:13:51,260 --> 01:13:56,100
There's a a myth that is. 
Definitely a charter for a 

1204
01:13:56,100 --> 01:13:59,540
ritual process. 
Another rite of passage where 

1205
01:13:59,540 --> 01:14:04,340
those two boys, those two twin 
hero boys, they're they have to 

1206
01:14:04,340 --> 01:14:09,180
first they take these. 
They're pointed out to them. 

1207
01:14:09,180 --> 01:14:11,700
The the person with them says, 
you see this. 

1208
01:14:13,020 --> 01:14:15,580
I think his name's Wasadeck is 
what they call the the 

1209
01:14:15,580 --> 01:14:17,700
Caterpillar. 
But he says, you see this. 

1210
01:14:17,900 --> 01:14:19,500
He will. 
He will puke. 

1211
01:14:19,500 --> 01:14:23,640
He will spit out blue puke. 
And he says, take it and put it 

1212
01:14:23,640 --> 01:14:27,200
in your mouth, but don't chew 
it, but hold it in your mouth 

1213
01:14:27,200 --> 01:14:29,440
and spit the juice out like you 
do tobacco. 

1214
01:14:30,280 --> 01:14:34,760
So, and these worms have the 
ability, we know this, to to 

1215
01:14:35,080 --> 01:14:38,560
retain nicotine in their bodies,
whereas most insects would be 

1216
01:14:38,800 --> 01:14:42,160
toxified by that. 
It doesn't affect them because 

1217
01:14:42,160 --> 01:14:45,480
of a certain protein in their 
bodies, and it allows them to 

1218
01:14:45,480 --> 01:14:49,520
both spit it out, like eject it 
and they can exhale it in the 

1219
01:14:49,520 --> 01:14:52,350
form of a gas. 
So when a predator comes around 

1220
01:14:52,350 --> 01:14:54,910
then they can breathe it out and
it smells it and it will leave 

1221
01:14:54,910 --> 01:14:57,150
them alone. 
Well, they're putting this in 

1222
01:14:57,150 --> 01:15:00,310
their mouth and using it just 
like tobacco juice. 

1223
01:15:00,750 --> 01:15:03,190
And they don't just feed on 
tobacco, they feed on detura 

1224
01:15:03,190 --> 01:15:07,270
also. 
So they're using this worm as an

1225
01:15:07,270 --> 01:15:11,230
entheogenic substance that 
particularly it's vomit and 

1226
01:15:11,870 --> 01:15:15,390
after in the same myth, after 
this, once they survive that 

1227
01:15:15,430 --> 01:15:19,320
then they have to go and smoke. 
What they call from a Calumet, 

1228
01:15:19,600 --> 01:15:22,840
the the sacred Calumet, they 
take off the wall and they have 

1229
01:15:22,840 --> 01:15:26,040
to smoke the tobacco that kills 
is what they call it, which is 

1230
01:15:26,040 --> 01:15:29,280
very probably Detura. 
They they recognize that they 

1231
01:15:29,280 --> 01:15:32,160
were similar. 
They're both nightshades, even 

1232
01:15:32,160 --> 01:15:36,320
though you know, we we 
officially classify them both as

1233
01:15:36,320 --> 01:15:38,480
nightshades, but they recognize 
that too. 

1234
01:15:38,720 --> 01:15:42,200
But what sets the detura apart 
is it will kill you if you use 

1235
01:15:42,200 --> 01:15:43,880
too much of it and they roll 
them. 

1236
01:15:44,830 --> 01:15:47,710
These balls of it and pack it in
the Calumet and they smoke it 

1237
01:15:47,710 --> 01:15:50,310
and they survive that too. 
And that's how they come to find

1238
01:15:50,310 --> 01:15:52,710
out. 
Sure enough, they're the hero 

1239
01:15:52,710 --> 01:15:56,630
twins that were separated from 
this father figure, just like in

1240
01:15:56,630 --> 01:16:02,910
the the honey locust myth. 
But they still up on the 

1241
01:16:02,910 --> 01:16:05,390
pottery. 
The You've seen the ones I sent 

1242
01:16:05,390 --> 01:16:07,350
you the picture with? 
Even the worm. 

1243
01:16:07,860 --> 01:16:11,100
Who has the eyes, the little 
eyes all over them, those eyes, 

1244
01:16:11,100 --> 01:16:14,820
they they mimic. 
And of course that the, the, the

1245
01:16:14,860 --> 01:16:18,420
Ogi image, how it looks like an 
eye. 

1246
01:16:18,780 --> 01:16:21,140
It's not an eye but it looks 
like an eye. 

1247
01:16:21,180 --> 01:16:24,180
They would have immediately 
recognized that on those 

1248
01:16:24,180 --> 01:16:27,540
caterpillars. 
I believe that I I just it's 

1249
01:16:27,620 --> 01:16:31,940
that's that's interesting. 
Lately I've been seeing a lot of

1250
01:16:31,940 --> 01:16:35,740
different you know well from the
I'm sure you saw the cicadas 

1251
01:16:35,740 --> 01:16:40,410
with the psilocybin fungal 
bottoms on them and then you 

1252
01:16:40,410 --> 01:16:44,810
have actually I sent you you 
were doing that research on 

1253
01:16:45,450 --> 01:16:50,490
Hekate or Hekate whatever name 
is Hekate and I sent you that 

1254
01:16:50,530 --> 01:16:55,770
fine from Pompeii where they 
found lizard tails in hekate or 

1255
01:16:55,770 --> 01:16:59,890
Hekate. 
I think you I'm very good with 

1256
01:16:59,970 --> 01:17:02,650
Greek words, but for some reason
that one sounds more 

1257
01:17:02,650 --> 01:17:07,360
Mesoamerican to me, for it does.
But yeah, they found lizard 

1258
01:17:07,360 --> 01:17:11,000
tails in those. 
What are they? 

1259
01:17:11,280 --> 01:17:14,720
Vases, jars, or whatever with 
all the psychoactive wine? 

1260
01:17:14,720 --> 01:17:15,880
They're. 
Called Dome. 

1261
01:17:16,320 --> 01:17:20,920
Yeah, Domas, Domas, they found 
lizard tails in there, so that's

1262
01:17:20,920 --> 01:17:23,320
definitely associated. 
But then we were talking too and

1263
01:17:23,320 --> 01:17:26,200
I started looking. 
There's some seems like there 

1264
01:17:26,200 --> 01:17:28,480
might be some psychoactive 
properties in some of these 

1265
01:17:28,480 --> 01:17:31,560
lizard tails. 
Oh yeah, there's a I wrote about

1266
01:17:31,560 --> 01:17:34,000
that in my second book. 
If you look at Angels and 

1267
01:17:34,000 --> 01:17:35,880
Vermillion, I put an appendix in
there. 

1268
01:17:37,580 --> 01:17:41,340
About it was initially I was 
researching the reference to 

1269
01:17:41,340 --> 01:17:46,780
Syrian rue in the heckity 
rituals from the Chaldean 

1270
01:17:46,780 --> 01:17:49,540
oracles. 
They call it savage rue or wild 

1271
01:17:49,540 --> 01:17:54,420
rue, which is Paganum harmala, a
very potent, probably the most 

1272
01:17:54,420 --> 01:17:58,260
potent source of MAOIS in a 
plant, and they're using it in 

1273
01:17:58,260 --> 01:18:03,180
the construction of this statue.
But the more I dug, the more I 

1274
01:18:03,180 --> 01:18:07,270
found other references to rue. 
Being used with other things, 

1275
01:18:07,270 --> 01:18:11,310
including lizards. 
And once I started digging into 

1276
01:18:11,310 --> 01:18:14,510
that, there are, there are 
medical papers from India from 

1277
01:18:15,390 --> 01:18:18,790
there's really bad in India 
where they'll catch these house 

1278
01:18:18,790 --> 01:18:21,790
geckos. 
And that's actually in the same 

1279
01:18:21,790 --> 01:18:24,910
Chaldean Oracle's ritual that 
I'm talking about. 

1280
01:18:25,310 --> 01:18:28,590
She says to take the lizards 
that you find about the house, 

1281
01:18:28,990 --> 01:18:31,830
that's exactly how she puts it. 
And in India, they're taking 

1282
01:18:31,830 --> 01:18:36,140
these house geckos. 
And roasting them black and 

1283
01:18:36,140 --> 01:18:40,260
powdering them and smoking them 
with opiates, that it's 

1284
01:18:40,260 --> 01:18:42,060
increasing the effects of 
opiates. 

1285
01:18:43,020 --> 01:18:45,340
And then in some cases they're 
mixing it with tobacco and with 

1286
01:18:45,340 --> 01:18:48,660
cannabis. 
But it's it. 

1287
01:18:49,140 --> 01:18:52,100
It made it look like it's an 
epidemic over there or 

1288
01:18:52,100 --> 01:18:54,660
something, if that. 
The I found the earliest one. 

1289
01:18:54,860 --> 01:18:57,020
They were saying we don't know 
what's going on with this, this.

1290
01:18:57,300 --> 01:19:00,860
This opiate addict is now 
addicted to smoking lizard tails

1291
01:19:00,860 --> 01:19:03,790
and he. 
It goes through 3 to 8 lizards a

1292
01:19:03,830 --> 01:19:08,110
day, you know, and then but the 
as the years go on I'm finding 

1293
01:19:08,590 --> 01:19:11,430
where they're just crunching. 
This guy's just chopping lizard 

1294
01:19:11,430 --> 01:19:14,550
tails, I'll chopping beaks, 
chopping lizard tails here 

1295
01:19:17,350 --> 01:19:19,430
screen name made a funny 
comment. 

1296
01:19:19,430 --> 01:19:22,230
I put it up on the screen. 
It says witches are just smarter

1297
01:19:22,230 --> 01:19:24,230
than everyone else and probably 
new. 

1298
01:19:24,230 --> 01:19:26,950
Or probably where the tail of 
the Newt comes from. 

1299
01:19:26,950 --> 01:19:28,950
You know, like when they're 
making their potions and their 

1300
01:19:28,950 --> 01:19:32,520
bruise and whatever. 
Chopping amphibian and lizard 

1301
01:19:32,520 --> 01:19:33,680
tail is probably where it came 
from. 

1302
01:19:34,240 --> 01:19:36,840
It's possible in there. 
If you look in the Greek Magical

1303
01:19:36,840 --> 01:19:41,560
Papyri, which is the old book of
magical spells from Graco, 

1304
01:19:41,560 --> 01:19:47,720
Egypt, there's one in there that
they say that they hide the true

1305
01:19:47,720 --> 01:19:51,120
identity of the substances 
they're using in these brews 

1306
01:19:51,600 --> 01:19:56,680
under the names of animal parts.
And this is probably part of 

1307
01:19:56,680 --> 01:19:58,960
what influenced, for example, 
Macbeth when. 

1308
01:19:59,370 --> 01:20:02,330
Shakespeare has them doing, you 
know, the eye of Newt and wing 

1309
01:20:02,330 --> 01:20:05,170
of bat and all these things. 
You can find correlations to 

1310
01:20:05,170 --> 01:20:09,730
virtually every tongue at the 
tongues of animals broken down 

1311
01:20:09,730 --> 01:20:13,170
and telling you what plant it is
that these are actually plants. 

1312
01:20:13,770 --> 01:20:17,450
So that gives it a whole new 
dimension of complexity that, I 

1313
01:20:17,450 --> 01:20:19,530
mean, it doesn't call into 
question the intoxicating 

1314
01:20:19,530 --> 01:20:24,810
properties of the lizards, but 
it shows that that kind of 

1315
01:20:24,810 --> 01:20:28,610
language was being manipulated 
pretty early on. 

1316
01:20:30,260 --> 01:20:33,940
Dr. Greg, so I've got some 
videos up here. 

1317
01:20:33,940 --> 01:20:36,140
I'm gonna pull up one here of 
Cahokia. 

1318
01:20:36,140 --> 01:20:43,940
OK, let's see here. 
This is like an aerial monks 

1319
01:20:43,940 --> 01:20:50,020
mound. 
So is there any correlation 

1320
01:20:50,020 --> 01:20:52,660
between these ritual and like 
obviously they didn't build the 

1321
01:20:52,660 --> 01:20:54,500
mounds to do psychoactive 
compounds. 

1322
01:20:54,500 --> 01:20:57,510
I'm sure that wasn't really the 
thinking, but was there any 

1323
01:20:57,510 --> 01:21:01,270
connection between the mounds 
and specifically some of the, 

1324
01:21:03,030 --> 01:21:05,990
you know, Rich? 
This is Cahokia, by the way, all

1325
01:21:06,190 --> 01:21:08,430
right. 
So, so leave the picture up a 

1326
01:21:08,430 --> 01:21:10,630
minute. 
First of all that that is called

1327
01:21:10,630 --> 01:21:12,550
Monks Mound. 
It's 100 feet tall. 

1328
01:21:12,550 --> 01:21:14,390
So it's tall as a 10 story 
building. 

1329
01:21:14,870 --> 01:21:19,990
It's base covers 14 acres. 
The Great Pyramid at Giza covers

1330
01:21:19,990 --> 01:21:22,190
13 acres. 
So it's an acre. 

1331
01:21:22,350 --> 01:21:25,790
It's base is covering one acre 
more than the Great Pyramid. 

1332
01:21:27,010 --> 01:21:32,570
Back in 1987, nearly 5000 people
were on the top. 

1333
01:21:32,570 --> 01:21:35,090
That gives you an idea of how 
big it is, because no matter 

1334
01:21:35,090 --> 01:21:39,010
what you do with these pictures,
you cannot tell how large they 

1335
01:21:39,010 --> 01:21:40,410
are. 
You just can't tell what the 

1336
01:21:40,410 --> 01:21:42,490
picture. 
I recently read an article by an

1337
01:21:42,490 --> 01:21:45,970
archaeologist who said it's 
almost useless showing picture 

1338
01:21:45,970 --> 01:21:48,930
people pictures of mounds 
because you can't tell how 

1339
01:21:48,930 --> 01:21:52,650
massive these things are. 
So anyway, yes, the answer is 

1340
01:21:52,650 --> 01:22:01,380
yes, the people who determined. 
The the sizes, the layout, the 

1341
01:22:01,380 --> 01:22:06,820
design, the angles and 
orientations of the mounds at 

1342
01:22:06,820 --> 01:22:11,540
these sites were the same elite 
people who were involved in the 

1343
01:22:11,540 --> 01:22:15,500
rituals and a lot of a lot of 
mound sites. 

1344
01:22:15,500 --> 01:22:17,700
Not all of them, but a lot of 
them. 

1345
01:22:18,540 --> 01:22:24,620
Their orientations and 
placements were specifically. 

1346
01:22:25,080 --> 01:22:30,040
Done in a way so that rituals 
could be performed at very 

1347
01:22:30,040 --> 01:22:34,360
specific times and of the year. 
For example, the winter 

1348
01:22:34,360 --> 01:22:38,960
solstice, the summer solstice. 
Archaeologists have always told 

1349
01:22:38,960 --> 01:22:40,880
us, oh, they were just used as a
calendar. 

1350
01:22:40,880 --> 01:22:44,760
That was all calendar, but we 
now know, you know, calendars 

1351
01:22:44,760 --> 01:22:48,080
for planting. 
However, we now know that that's

1352
01:22:48,080 --> 01:22:53,720
not entirely the case these 
sites were designed to point to.

1353
01:22:54,270 --> 01:22:59,230
The risings and settings of 
certain stars and constellations

1354
01:22:59,790 --> 01:23:02,950
that were employed in rituals, 
it's really that simple. 

1355
01:23:03,270 --> 01:23:06,870
So as far as the rituals go, a 
lot of the rituals did employ 

1356
01:23:06,870 --> 01:23:12,630
hallucinogenic substances. 
I believe the winter solstice 

1357
01:23:12,630 --> 01:23:17,990
ritual the Path of Souls, when 
primarily used doses of 

1358
01:23:18,310 --> 01:23:22,210
psilocybin mushrooms. 
I don't think they gave the 

1359
01:23:22,210 --> 01:23:24,330
populace the black drink, but it
was. 

1360
01:23:24,330 --> 01:23:28,330
It's because it was such a long 
ritual that lasted an entire 

1361
01:23:28,330 --> 01:23:34,530
night from sunset all the way to
the an hour or so after sunrise.

1362
01:23:34,890 --> 01:23:38,810
So the answer is yes. 
The same people designed them 

1363
01:23:38,810 --> 01:23:41,770
and laid them out as who 
conducted the rituals. 

1364
01:23:42,050 --> 01:23:46,610
And we know that the the shaman 
and the medicine people had 

1365
01:23:46,730 --> 01:23:50,350
many, many classes. 
And secret societies. 

1366
01:23:50,350 --> 01:23:56,310
The Meadowin societies of the 
Ojibwa had various groups within

1367
01:23:56,310 --> 01:23:58,710
them and they all had certain 
assignments. 

1368
01:23:59,630 --> 01:24:03,670
The Zuni in the Southwest, I've,
I've done a bit studying them 

1369
01:24:04,670 --> 01:24:07,550
and that's actually part of what
I'm doing now. 

1370
01:24:07,550 --> 01:24:12,030
But they had people that were 
assigned to doing nothing but 

1371
01:24:12,030 --> 01:24:15,870
plants and plant medicine, the 
collecting and identification of

1372
01:24:15,870 --> 01:24:18,670
plants. 
And when they were asked how 

1373
01:24:18,670 --> 01:24:24,510
they knew what plants did what, 
they said the gods told us that 

1374
01:24:24,510 --> 01:24:26,230
they would interact with the 
gods. 

1375
01:24:26,230 --> 01:24:29,710
So that's why I don't know if 
it's a simple answer, but that's

1376
01:24:29,710 --> 01:24:31,710
my answer. 
By the way, at the base of that 

1377
01:24:31,710 --> 01:24:36,190
man, pretty much down toward the
base in the center, is a large 

1378
01:24:36,190 --> 01:24:40,750
stone structure that was 
discovered in the late 1990s. 

1379
01:24:41,150 --> 01:24:45,270
It has never been entered. 
When I say it's large, I think 

1380
01:24:45,270 --> 01:24:49,020
it's 30 some feet tall. 
And about 70 feet long. 

1381
01:24:49,980 --> 01:24:53,740
And I believe 45 feet fits, and 
I think it's 45 feet wide. 

1382
01:24:53,740 --> 01:24:55,740
So it's a very large stone 
structure. 

1383
01:24:56,300 --> 01:25:02,420
But a lot of these mounds, the 
temple mounds, were once a 

1384
01:25:02,420 --> 01:25:06,220
smaller temple mound. 
And when the king or the leader 

1385
01:25:06,220 --> 01:25:10,140
died, or the chief or whatever 
you want to call him died, they 

1386
01:25:10,140 --> 01:25:14,790
would sometimes bury them. 
In the temple and burn the 

1387
01:25:14,790 --> 01:25:20,270
temple and they would make a 
stone chamber around it and then

1388
01:25:20,270 --> 01:25:24,510
enlarge the mound. 
There's speculation that that 

1389
01:25:24,510 --> 01:25:26,510
may be what it is at the base of
monks. 

1390
01:25:26,510 --> 01:25:29,790
Man, I've published a lot of 
photos of the stone chambers 

1391
01:25:29,790 --> 01:25:32,470
found in mounds. 
They're not my photos. 

1392
01:25:32,510 --> 01:25:34,590
Do you? 
What's the oldest? 

1393
01:25:34,630 --> 01:25:37,580
I mean, I know. 
So I think that's changed. 

1394
01:25:37,620 --> 01:25:39,540
Probably since the last time I 
was on right. 

1395
01:25:40,100 --> 01:25:44,060
The oldest mound now is 9000 BC.
Yeah. 

1396
01:25:44,140 --> 01:25:47,460
So I was going to ask you. 
So the first time we had you on,

1397
01:25:47,460 --> 01:25:50,700
I believe we were talking about 
your book, Denisovan Origins 

1398
01:25:50,700 --> 01:25:55,180
with Andrew Collins. 
And when we had you on, yeah, we

1399
01:25:55,180 --> 01:25:57,460
were talking about the South 
American mounds and how a lot of

1400
01:25:57,460 --> 01:26:01,710
them are older and we're talking
about people traveling more and 

1401
01:26:01,710 --> 01:26:04,110
probably people populated the 
Americas. 

1402
01:26:04,230 --> 01:26:08,150
They keep talking about the 
Beringia and, you know, the kelp

1403
01:26:08,430 --> 01:26:11,830
highway and all these theories. 
But doesn't it just make more 

1404
01:26:11,830 --> 01:26:15,110
sense that since people got to 
Easter Island through Polynesia 

1405
01:26:15,110 --> 01:26:17,790
that they just continued on to 
South America? 

1406
01:26:18,110 --> 01:26:21,310
Or, you know, something along 
those lines are back and forth 

1407
01:26:21,390 --> 01:26:23,590
and? 
That's called the southern 

1408
01:26:23,590 --> 01:26:26,750
route, and the southern route to
a lot of people is already 

1409
01:26:26,750 --> 01:26:29,970
proven. 
By the fact that in the Amazon 

1410
01:26:29,970 --> 01:26:33,450
there are tribes that pretty 
much have had no contact or very

1411
01:26:33,450 --> 01:26:38,130
little contact with outsiders, 
and their genetics is identical 

1412
01:26:38,130 --> 01:26:41,170
to the genetics of the 
indigenous people of Australia 

1413
01:26:41,170 --> 01:26:43,730
and New Zealand and a few of the
islands there. 

1414
01:26:43,730 --> 01:26:45,250
There's that's where they came 
from. 

1415
01:26:45,250 --> 01:26:48,090
There's no other place they 
could have come from and they've

1416
01:26:48,090 --> 01:26:51,090
been there for as far as they 
know they've been there forever.

1417
01:26:51,920 --> 01:26:56,120
But, but there is a there are 
many sites in South America that

1418
01:26:56,120 --> 01:27:01,360
date to 50,000 BCN. 
American archaeologists don't 

1419
01:27:01,360 --> 01:27:03,800
accept that. 
They don't put it in the 

1420
01:27:03,800 --> 01:27:05,800
textbooks. 
And since most of the people 

1421
01:27:05,800 --> 01:27:10,000
that that read my books and read
your, you know, watch your show 

1422
01:27:10,000 --> 01:27:11,720
are in North America, they're 
not. 

1423
01:27:11,720 --> 01:27:13,640
And they're going to look at 
North American what North 

1424
01:27:13,640 --> 01:27:16,720
American archaeologists said. 
North American archaeologists 

1425
01:27:16,720 --> 01:27:20,060
ignore all that. 
They just say it's all nonsense 

1426
01:27:20,060 --> 01:27:24,740
and cannot be. 
But yeah, I'm pretty sure that 

1427
01:27:24,740 --> 01:27:29,420
South America was inhabited at 
least by 50,000 BC. 

1428
01:27:29,420 --> 01:27:35,260
And there's very solid evidence 
in Mexico, near Mexico City at a

1429
01:27:35,260 --> 01:27:39,140
very bizarre site that dates to 
now 300,000 years ago. 

1430
01:27:40,060 --> 01:27:43,780
It was initially discovered by 
Mexican archaeologists. 

1431
01:27:44,930 --> 01:27:48,490
It's a there's an incredible 
story about the site. 

1432
01:27:48,490 --> 01:27:53,290
There's a lot of films about it 
now, how the head of the museum 

1433
01:27:53,290 --> 01:27:57,290
in Mexico City got very upset 
because he wasn't called in. 

1434
01:27:57,810 --> 01:28:03,130
He claimed it was a hoax. 
The US Geological Survey are the

1435
01:28:03,130 --> 01:28:07,050
people who dated the artifacts 
at the site and dug some of them

1436
01:28:07,050 --> 01:28:11,570
out, and they initially dated to
250,000 years ago. 

1437
01:28:12,250 --> 01:28:18,170
Since then, in 2004 and 2005, a 
number of archaeologists have 

1438
01:28:18,170 --> 01:28:20,890
gone back different groups from 
all over the world. 

1439
01:28:21,330 --> 01:28:26,050
They have sent their samples to 
Germany and France and North 

1440
01:28:26,050 --> 01:28:28,930
America, and they all come and 
the US Geological Survey. 

1441
01:28:28,930 --> 01:28:33,810
Again, they all come back with 
dates between 250,000 years ago 

1442
01:28:33,810 --> 01:28:38,690
to 400,000 years ago now. 
They would not be humans like 

1443
01:28:38,810 --> 01:28:41,640
us. 
They would be some other branch 

1444
01:28:41,640 --> 01:28:44,080
of humanity that is probably 
extinct. 

1445
01:28:45,000 --> 01:28:49,080
Andrew and I did talk about the 
Denisovans as that group. 

1446
01:28:49,120 --> 01:28:50,920
I don't believe those were 
Denisovans. 

1447
01:28:50,920 --> 01:28:55,840
I think they are some other 
branch of humanity and it's 

1448
01:28:55,840 --> 01:28:58,640
pretty clear that could be home 
on the lady. 

1449
01:28:58,640 --> 01:29:00,240
We know we're seeing these. 
Well, there's. 

1450
01:29:01,360 --> 01:29:06,710
There's a lot 300,000. 
There was an event 70,000 years 

1451
01:29:06,710 --> 01:29:10,110
ago that caused the population 
bottleneck all over the world. 

1452
01:29:10,110 --> 01:29:14,030
So I think the Americas were 
heavily settled long before then

1453
01:29:15,070 --> 01:29:18,910
and around 70,000 BC there was 
that disaster that occurred. 

1454
01:29:19,350 --> 01:29:23,830
What they're saying is the 
recovery from the disaster took 

1455
01:29:23,830 --> 01:29:28,270
place around 50,000 BC and the 
population started increasing 

1456
01:29:28,630 --> 01:29:30,710
and that's the dates now that 
pop up. 

1457
01:29:31,410 --> 01:29:35,770
In South America, over and over 
50,000 BC, there's about 8-9 

1458
01:29:35,770 --> 01:29:39,330
sites that go to 50,000. 
In North America, there's one 

1459
01:29:39,330 --> 01:29:43,730
site that goes to 50,000 BC and 
that is the Topper site in South

1460
01:29:43,730 --> 01:29:48,570
Carolina that Albert Goodyear, 
archaeologist, University of 

1461
01:29:48,570 --> 01:29:51,570
South Carolina, has been working
at for decades. 

1462
01:29:52,250 --> 01:29:56,490
I spoke with an archaeologist 
who worked under Goodyear. 

1463
01:29:57,330 --> 01:30:00,330
For years that he said the 
research is as solid as it can 

1464
01:30:00,330 --> 01:30:03,650
be and the archaeologist is a 
skeptic, a well known skeptic. 

1465
01:30:03,650 --> 01:30:07,330
I have several well known 
skeptics that I'm friendly with.

1466
01:30:07,330 --> 01:30:10,450
I can't mention their names. 
I can't talk about what they 

1467
01:30:10,450 --> 01:30:12,490
read. 
You know, your BFF Zahi was. 

1468
01:30:13,250 --> 01:30:15,410
Yeah, I. 
Don't talk to Zahi. 

1469
01:30:15,410 --> 01:30:17,730
I'm joking. 
I'd have to. 

1470
01:30:17,970 --> 01:30:20,730
I'd have to send. 
Some money over to talk to 

1471
01:30:20,730 --> 01:30:24,780
Zahia, but. 
There's good evidence that the 

1472
01:30:24,780 --> 01:30:26,900
Americas were settled long, long
ago. 

1473
01:30:27,260 --> 01:30:30,180
A lot earlier, yeah. 
So I was going to mention 

1474
01:30:30,180 --> 01:30:33,220
though, there's that cave which 
they're disputing now or 

1475
01:30:33,220 --> 01:30:35,860
debating over. 
But the chiquite in Mexico, 

1476
01:30:35,860 --> 01:30:41,100
which is 30,000 years old, they 
found like 200 stone tools and 

1477
01:30:41,100 --> 01:30:44,860
lay different strata. 
And but then you have the people

1478
01:30:45,280 --> 01:30:48,360
that are skeptical, say no, 
those are flakes from The Cave 

1479
01:30:48,360 --> 01:30:49,960
that fell and blah blah blah 
blah blah. 

1480
01:30:50,320 --> 01:30:52,720
I mean, I saw a couple pictures 
of the tools, they look like 

1481
01:30:52,720 --> 01:30:54,600
tools to me, but I mean, what do
I know? 

1482
01:30:54,600 --> 01:30:57,680
What is this? 
The cerudy site in in California

1483
01:30:57,680 --> 01:30:59,360
that came out just a couple 
years ago. 

1484
01:30:59,680 --> 01:31:06,440
Cerudy's pretty old 33,000 BC. 
133 and Louis B Leakey, famous 

1485
01:31:06,760 --> 01:31:14,040
Louis Leakey back in the 70s and
80s, found the site near Santa 

1486
01:31:14,040 --> 01:31:18,120
Barbara. 
And it dated to 250,000 years 

1487
01:31:18,120 --> 01:31:20,880
ago, and he staked his entire 
reputation on it. 

1488
01:31:20,880 --> 01:31:24,560
Being a human occupied site, it 
was all human, he said. 

1489
01:31:25,000 --> 01:31:30,520
And he was so criticized at the 
time that he withdrew completely

1490
01:31:30,520 --> 01:31:34,520
from public interaction. 
That's a true story. 

1491
01:31:34,520 --> 01:31:36,920
Also so. 
There's a lot. 

1492
01:31:37,320 --> 01:31:39,880
So what do we do here? 
You're the perfect person to ask

1493
01:31:39,880 --> 01:31:42,320
because we've talked about this 
many every time you're on. 

1494
01:31:42,520 --> 01:31:45,360
So when I started this journey, 
this knowledge quest, I was very

1495
01:31:45,360 --> 01:31:50,120
much into the woo whatever 
sounded the most crazy to me but

1496
01:31:50,120 --> 01:31:54,200
had some sort of connection to 
reality is what I jumped at. 

1497
01:31:54,200 --> 01:31:58,600
And now I find myself like you 
two and like some other people 

1498
01:31:58,600 --> 01:32:00,680
who are doing, like real 
research, but it's considered 

1499
01:32:00,680 --> 01:32:02,950
fringe. 
You know, those are the people I

1500
01:32:02,950 --> 01:32:04,550
look to. 
I can't look at more of these 

1501
01:32:04,550 --> 01:32:07,030
big dogs that are in the 
alternative stuff anymore 

1502
01:32:07,030 --> 01:32:10,310
because they're just, it's a lot
of fluff, not a lot of actual. 

1503
01:32:11,270 --> 01:32:13,670
So like, how do we navigate 
that? 

1504
01:32:13,670 --> 01:32:14,950
There's real mysteries out 
there. 

1505
01:32:14,950 --> 01:32:17,790
There's this fine line, but 
there's people that are just 

1506
01:32:17,790 --> 01:32:19,950
making TV shows and content. 
And then there's people that are

1507
01:32:19,950 --> 01:32:22,350
actually passionate about. 
I can tell you're passionate 

1508
01:32:22,350 --> 01:32:23,990
about. 
I can tell Petey's passionate 

1509
01:32:23,990 --> 01:32:26,830
about it. 
There's people that are just in 

1510
01:32:26,830 --> 01:32:30,190
and it's cliche talking about 
money and shows and blah, blah, 

1511
01:32:30,190 --> 01:32:32,690
blah. 
But like, what do we do here? 

1512
01:32:32,690 --> 01:32:37,730
Because there's a lot of people 
pushing BS out there in these 

1513
01:32:37,730 --> 01:32:41,050
communities that are making 
people like you, like PD, like 

1514
01:32:41,050 --> 01:32:44,210
other people that we've had on 
the show who again do real 

1515
01:32:44,210 --> 01:32:46,610
research, you know, gives them 
kind of a bad name because some 

1516
01:32:46,610 --> 01:32:49,250
of those people are snake oil 
salesman well. 

1517
01:32:49,250 --> 01:32:51,730
First of all, you got to just 
let it go. 

1518
01:32:51,730 --> 01:32:55,370
You got to make it irrelevant, 
not care about that and do what 

1519
01:32:55,370 --> 01:32:58,450
you're passionate, where your 
passion goes and do the best you

1520
01:32:58,450 --> 01:33:01,820
can do. 
Where I think it's gonna go and 

1521
01:33:01,820 --> 01:33:07,900
where I'm where I'm what I'm 
working on right now is taking 

1522
01:33:07,900 --> 01:33:14,380
what Pd's doing what his 
research and taking the next 

1523
01:33:14,380 --> 01:33:18,020
step, which actually is the woo.
It is the woo. 

1524
01:33:18,700 --> 01:33:21,860
And so the question is, and I 
know we've, we've. 

1525
01:33:22,970 --> 01:33:25,570
We've actually talked about this
specific thing. 

1526
01:33:25,690 --> 01:33:26,970
Yeah, but you guys are actually 
talking. 

1527
01:33:27,170 --> 01:33:30,210
You guys are talking about real,
tangible, like you can show me a

1528
01:33:30,210 --> 01:33:34,090
spiral shell with the chemical 
and like, the people I'm talking

1529
01:33:34,090 --> 01:33:36,810
about don't have any of that. 
But people, they've got 10 

1530
01:33:36,810 --> 01:33:39,730
million followers because they 
say insane, crazy shit that 

1531
01:33:39,730 --> 01:33:44,170
people want to hear. 
Well, I think that the, to me 

1532
01:33:44,170 --> 01:33:47,450
the the question that I'm 
working on is this, OK, so they 

1533
01:33:47,450 --> 01:33:50,420
took hallucinogens. 
And I know when people go to 

1534
01:33:50,420 --> 01:33:52,500
mound sites, they can have 
experiences. 

1535
01:33:52,500 --> 01:33:54,740
I've been writing about that. 
I'm writing these little short 

1536
01:33:54,740 --> 01:34:00,500
articles and those are all bits 
and pieces of books that are 

1537
01:34:00,500 --> 01:34:02,180
coming. 
They're not things that I've 

1538
01:34:02,180 --> 01:34:04,500
written before. 
It's like what happens when you 

1539
01:34:04,500 --> 01:34:06,500
actually do a ritual? 
What's the point of it? 

1540
01:34:06,500 --> 01:34:08,900
What happens? 
What are the electromagnetic 

1541
01:34:08,900 --> 01:34:12,180
fields around mound sites? 
What's the effect of the geology

1542
01:34:12,180 --> 01:34:14,620
and the stones? 
And then what in the world 

1543
01:34:14,620 --> 01:34:17,620
happens when you take like, 
ayahuasca or when you're taking 

1544
01:34:17,620 --> 01:34:20,720
hallucinogens? 
What are you saying? 

1545
01:34:20,720 --> 01:34:26,760
Are they simply hallucinations 
that have that, where the real 

1546
01:34:26,760 --> 01:34:31,680
world is simply being altered 
and you are seeing things that 

1547
01:34:31,680 --> 01:34:34,760
aren't there? 
Or is it actually opening you up

1548
01:34:34,760 --> 01:34:37,400
to something else, to some other
reality? 

1549
01:34:38,590 --> 01:34:40,790
And I'll give you what just a 
very quick thing. 

1550
01:34:40,790 --> 01:34:44,350
I'm doing a conference in a week
with Andrew Collins here. 

1551
01:34:44,350 --> 01:34:48,950
And at that conference I'm going
to say something that nobody in 

1552
01:34:48,950 --> 01:34:56,750
Edgar Edgar Casey's stream of of
influence have ever heard before

1553
01:34:56,750 --> 01:34:59,710
because I'm into the, I have 
been in the Casey organization 

1554
01:34:59,710 --> 01:35:02,430
for a long time and this is a 
Casey oriented conference. 

1555
01:35:02,790 --> 01:35:05,670
So here's what I'm going to say.
Edgar Casey was not a psychic. 

1556
01:35:06,870 --> 01:35:10,610
The man was not a psychic. 
And it's a shame that that term 

1557
01:35:10,610 --> 01:35:13,730
was ever applied to. 
And what Edgar Casey was, was a 

1558
01:35:13,730 --> 01:35:15,410
combination. 
Well, he was a shaman. 

1559
01:35:15,410 --> 01:35:17,690
That's what he was. 
He was a shaman and a medicine 

1560
01:35:17,690 --> 01:35:20,490
person. 
And what shaman did is shaman 

1561
01:35:20,490 --> 01:35:24,050
went into psychic trances and 
they used substances to go and 

1562
01:35:24,050 --> 01:35:27,810
interact with the spiritual 
world with the powers, whatever 

1563
01:35:27,810 --> 01:35:30,610
those powers are, and get 
information from them, 

1564
01:35:30,610 --> 01:35:33,050
information that could help 
individuals and could help the 

1565
01:35:33,050 --> 01:35:35,170
tribe. 
They sometimes. 

1566
01:35:35,590 --> 01:35:38,390
Would They're not predictions 
because Casey never made 

1567
01:35:38,390 --> 01:35:40,270
predictions. 
People keep talking about his 

1568
01:35:40,270 --> 01:35:43,310
prophecies and predictions. 
It isn't that way when you 

1569
01:35:43,310 --> 01:35:46,390
actually read it. 
What Edgar Casey said is if 

1570
01:35:46,390 --> 01:35:50,270
things don't change, here is 
what is likely to occur and 

1571
01:35:50,270 --> 01:35:54,070
often he would say you as an 
individual getting a reading, 

1572
01:35:54,070 --> 01:35:57,230
you need to be careful. 
You need to you should think 

1573
01:35:57,230 --> 01:35:59,990
about pulling your money out of 
the stock market, which he told 

1574
01:35:59,990 --> 01:36:03,710
several people right before the 
1929 crash. 

1575
01:36:03,710 --> 01:36:06,390
That's how everybody says, oh, 
he predicted that the stock 

1576
01:36:06,390 --> 01:36:08,350
market crash. 
Well, he told some people to get

1577
01:36:08,350 --> 01:36:10,710
their money out because there 
was a disturbance Okay. 

1578
01:36:11,310 --> 01:36:16,670
Well, Casey also did healing. 
He never did handson healing. 

1579
01:36:17,630 --> 01:36:21,030
He did the same thing that 
medicine people do. 

1580
01:36:21,030 --> 01:36:23,990
Medicine people would often go 
into a trance. 

1581
01:36:24,430 --> 01:36:28,270
And they would diagnose physical
problems that individuals had 

1582
01:36:28,270 --> 01:36:31,310
and they would then tell them to
use herbal remedies. 

1583
01:36:31,510 --> 01:36:35,710
That is what Edgar Casey did. 
He would go into a trance and 

1584
01:36:35,710 --> 01:36:39,910
diagnose physical problems that 
people had or try to, and then 

1585
01:36:39,910 --> 01:36:43,070
he would recommend a remedy. 
That is what Native American 

1586
01:36:43,070 --> 01:36:45,630
medicine people did. 
And all his remedies had to do 

1587
01:36:45,630 --> 01:36:49,950
with eating, doing a medics, 
eating a lot of apples. 

1588
01:36:50,390 --> 01:36:52,030
Doing, you know, cleaning your 
body. 

1589
01:36:52,030 --> 01:36:54,750
And he talked about actually 
vomiting at times. 

1590
01:36:55,510 --> 01:36:58,350
Clean out your intestines, Clean
out your stomach. 

1591
01:36:59,070 --> 01:37:02,790
Acidify your body, he taught. 
Alkali, your alkali, your body. 

1592
01:37:02,790 --> 01:37:04,750
He talked about that kind of 
stuff, yeah. 

1593
01:37:04,750 --> 01:37:07,710
And actually, if you read a lot 
of his papers, I mean, it's 

1594
01:37:07,710 --> 01:37:10,710
universal knowledge that we 
would know now, but back then 

1595
01:37:10,710 --> 01:37:13,270
they wouldn't have known a lot 
of the stuff that he was saying.

1596
01:37:13,470 --> 01:37:14,630
Exactly. 
Casey. 

1597
01:37:14,630 --> 01:37:17,900
This guy Edgar Casey was not. 
Stupid man. 

1598
01:37:17,900 --> 01:37:20,420
And he was very well read. 
People keep saying he was 

1599
01:37:20,420 --> 01:37:21,860
illiterate. 
He wasn't illiterate. 

1600
01:37:22,140 --> 01:37:24,340
He, he, Casey, worked in a 
bookstore. 

1601
01:37:24,340 --> 01:37:26,540
He read so many books it was 
unreal. 

1602
01:37:26,540 --> 01:37:29,460
He read newspapers. 
All that information was 

1603
01:37:29,460 --> 01:37:31,900
absorbed to him. 
And that's exactly what a shaman

1604
01:37:31,900 --> 01:37:34,740
would have done in his world. 
A shaman would have grown up and

1605
01:37:34,740 --> 01:37:38,500
he would have learned all kinds 
of things from his all his years

1606
01:37:38,500 --> 01:37:40,820
of growing up that would have 
been his education. 

1607
01:37:41,380 --> 01:37:44,940
And shaman were called Edgar 
Casey had they were called by 

1608
01:37:44,940 --> 01:37:49,140
spirit forces. 
Edgar Casey had two experiences 

1609
01:37:49,140 --> 01:37:51,660
where he met what's been 
interpreted as an Angel. 

1610
01:37:52,020 --> 01:37:54,580
It was a being and a ball of 
light. 

1611
01:37:54,660 --> 01:37:59,340
That's what it was, a being and 
a ball of light and the first 

1612
01:37:59,420 --> 01:38:02,860
interaction. 
He has a child at age 13, which 

1613
01:38:02,860 --> 01:38:07,860
is when many shamen are called 
and when this transition period 

1614
01:38:07,860 --> 01:38:09,780
of the vision quest often took 
place. 

1615
01:38:09,780 --> 01:38:13,740
Age 12 and 13 with Native 
Americans, this ball of light 

1616
01:38:13,740 --> 01:38:17,890
being told him. 
That he would heal people, 

1617
01:38:17,890 --> 01:38:21,290
mainly children. 
That is what happened in it. 

1618
01:38:21,610 --> 01:38:25,850
And the second experience he had
with the ball of light was the 

1619
01:38:25,850 --> 01:38:29,090
same. 
Being came to him and told him 

1620
01:38:29,490 --> 01:38:31,810
time to do it. 
He had to move. 

1621
01:38:31,810 --> 01:38:35,730
He had to leave the farm in 
Hopkinsville near Hopkinsville 

1622
01:38:35,730 --> 01:38:38,850
and move to town. 
That was the 2nd. 

1623
01:38:38,930 --> 01:38:41,850
That's right, the same 
Hopkinsville as the Hopkinsville

1624
01:38:41,850 --> 01:38:43,130
Goblins. 
That's. 

1625
01:38:43,850 --> 01:38:47,810
So my my point in this is. 
Shaman were called. 

1626
01:38:47,970 --> 01:38:49,690
They often had these 
experiences. 

1627
01:38:49,690 --> 01:38:51,930
They saw and interacted with 
little people. 

1628
01:38:51,930 --> 01:38:55,370
So did Edgar Casey. 
And that's what everybody misses

1629
01:38:55,370 --> 01:38:57,850
in this. 
That's what people just, you 

1630
01:38:57,850 --> 01:38:59,610
know, they call him a psychic 
all the time. 

1631
01:38:59,610 --> 01:39:03,450
Like he was a fortune teller and
he wasn't he, he was totally 

1632
01:39:03,450 --> 01:39:07,810
different. 
He was the first sort of modern 

1633
01:39:07,810 --> 01:39:11,050
shaman, medicine man 
combination. 

1634
01:39:11,410 --> 01:39:15,370
And I've pulled all these 
articles out of. 

1635
01:39:15,850 --> 01:39:18,970
Of scientific journals where 
they've tried to define what a 

1636
01:39:18,970 --> 01:39:20,930
shaman is. 
That's why I know when the term 

1637
01:39:20,930 --> 01:39:24,730
shaman was first. 
He was, it was 1698 supposedly 

1638
01:39:24,730 --> 01:39:31,370
by, yeah, a guy in Siberia. 
So he, he had all the same 

1639
01:39:31,370 --> 01:39:35,690
attributes as the shaman because
they were called they they had 

1640
01:39:36,090 --> 01:39:38,650
visitations. 
There's loads of examples of 

1641
01:39:38,650 --> 01:39:41,210
them talking about visitations 
in childhood. 

1642
01:39:41,770 --> 01:39:44,010
They were told they were going 
to be healers. 

1643
01:39:44,400 --> 01:39:45,920
And they were shown how to do 
it. 

1644
01:39:46,400 --> 01:39:48,360
And Casey went into these 
trances. 

1645
01:39:48,360 --> 01:39:52,640
He went out, He interacted with 
whatever that spiritual world 

1646
01:39:52,640 --> 01:39:54,720
is. 
So to me, the real question is, 

1647
01:39:54,720 --> 01:39:57,880
and this is where the woo goes, 
is it real or not? 

1648
01:39:57,880 --> 01:40:01,280
What are these people tapping? 
What are they tapping? 

1649
01:40:01,520 --> 01:40:05,120
That is the question to me. 
And that's what I find most 

1650
01:40:05,120 --> 01:40:07,320
interesting, all the nuts and 
bolts of it. 

1651
01:40:07,720 --> 01:40:10,680
This is nuts and bolts. 
These objects are nuts and 

1652
01:40:10,680 --> 01:40:12,680
bolts. 
Yeah, they're really interesting

1653
01:40:12,880 --> 01:40:15,160
and what they've led us to like 
P D's work. 

1654
01:40:15,160 --> 01:40:18,000
Looking at all this pottery, 
what it's led to is we 

1655
01:40:18,000 --> 01:40:20,400
understand what the hell went in
those pots. 

1656
01:40:20,760 --> 01:40:25,320
And then we know now what a lot 
of this stuff was used for, but 

1657
01:40:25,320 --> 01:40:30,080
it wasn't to dope up. 
The society people get are going

1658
01:40:30,080 --> 01:40:32,840
to get the idea here that they 
sat around and they were like 

1659
01:40:33,000 --> 01:40:35,540
potheads, smoke and no. 
Are. 

1660
01:40:35,540 --> 01:40:38,380
Listen, I was going to. 
Say our listeners are pretty 

1661
01:40:38,380 --> 01:40:42,180
well versed on psychedelics and 
candidates and stuff, but they 

1662
01:40:42,180 --> 01:40:46,300
weren't. 
They used these at ritual times 

1663
01:40:46,300 --> 01:40:49,460
primarily. 
Now it is true that the leaders,

1664
01:40:50,380 --> 01:40:53,340
they had rituals all the time 
because they met. 

1665
01:40:53,340 --> 01:40:57,980
Just like we would have a City 
Hall meet or a mayor or a chief 

1666
01:40:57,980 --> 01:41:00,980
or in the in the White House, in
the worm of the White House. 

1667
01:41:02,080 --> 01:41:05,320
So that's where I think it's 
going that that to me is the 

1668
01:41:05,320 --> 01:41:09,080
most interesting thing. 
But the battle over when America

1669
01:41:09,080 --> 01:41:13,360
was populated and all that, 
that's going to continue well 

1670
01:41:13,360 --> 01:41:15,520
beyond my lifetime and yours 
too. 

1671
01:41:15,680 --> 01:41:18,280
It'll continue well beyond that.
So that, that's it. 

1672
01:41:18,280 --> 01:41:20,960
That's all I got to say. 
Let let PD answer too. 

1673
01:41:23,840 --> 01:41:27,720
I got a response to you. 
Know when you say what are you 

1674
01:41:27,720 --> 01:41:31,440
tapping into? 
I've been using. 

1675
01:41:32,760 --> 01:41:36,720
Various antheogenic plants and 
substances. 

1676
01:41:37,480 --> 01:41:40,920
I mean, since I was 11 years 
old, that's when I started down 

1677
01:41:40,920 --> 01:41:49,480
this road. 
And my overwhelming just 

1678
01:41:49,800 --> 01:41:53,320
intuition, my feeling throughout
all those years, all of those 

1679
01:41:53,320 --> 01:41:58,160
experiences, has always been 
that I'm, I'm not hallucinating.

1680
01:41:58,160 --> 01:42:00,360
I'm not seeing something that 
isn't there. 

1681
01:42:00,820 --> 01:42:05,260
I'm seeing sometimes I think 
about it like you remember back 

1682
01:42:05,260 --> 01:42:09,340
in the 90s you'd have cable but 
you could sign up for their 

1683
01:42:09,340 --> 01:42:12,860
channels and the the Cableman 
would bring you a little adapter

1684
01:42:12,860 --> 01:42:16,420
that you'd screw on between your
cable box and the the cord and 

1685
01:42:16,420 --> 01:42:19,220
all the sudden you get all these
other channels that you couldn't

1686
01:42:19,220 --> 01:42:23,540
get before like Cinemax and HBO.
I think about it like that, like

1687
01:42:23,660 --> 01:42:26,860
the channels are always being 
broadcasted, but something 

1688
01:42:27,100 --> 01:42:29,580
something's most of it's 
filtered out. 

1689
01:42:30,000 --> 01:42:33,640
And Aldous Huxley talked about 
that, how there was a funnel in 

1690
01:42:33,640 --> 01:42:38,080
the psyche that funnels out 
everything that's not pertinent 

1691
01:42:38,080 --> 01:42:42,080
to your survival in that moment,
but you can widen that funnel 

1692
01:42:42,080 --> 01:42:45,600
with things like mescaline that 
allows more to come through, 

1693
01:42:45,680 --> 01:42:50,280
more to come in. 
I think about it like that. 

1694
01:42:50,280 --> 01:42:51,400
What do you think about that 
though? 

1695
01:42:51,400 --> 01:42:53,400
I was going to, to your point 
really quick. 

1696
01:42:54,320 --> 01:42:56,520
This is something I've mentioned
many times and I've had Andrew 

1697
01:42:56,520 --> 01:42:58,760
Gilmore kind of go back and 
forth with me on it, but. 

1698
01:43:00,430 --> 01:43:05,390
Tryptamines versus tropane, so 
like tryptamines plays off our 

1699
01:43:05,390 --> 01:43:10,350
five H, T2A receptors. 
They're not biologically 

1700
01:43:10,350 --> 01:43:14,070
harmful. 
They do allow you to experience 

1701
01:43:14,070 --> 01:43:16,750
what you would think of as 
normal reality with some slight 

1702
01:43:16,750 --> 01:43:19,030
variation, whether it be flowing
patterns and blah blah bell 

1703
01:43:19,030 --> 01:43:25,470
colors, whatever, versus a 
tropane, which you can be kind 

1704
01:43:25,470 --> 01:43:28,380
of like in an alternate. 
Realm completely or see 

1705
01:43:28,380 --> 01:43:31,220
something somebody that's not. 
They're probably more akin to 

1706
01:43:31,220 --> 01:43:34,460
like us like being super drunk 
and having hallucinations or 

1707
01:43:34,460 --> 01:43:37,180
something like that. 
Do you think that there is a 

1708
01:43:37,180 --> 01:43:39,620
difference between those 
compounds and they're like 

1709
01:43:39,860 --> 01:43:41,980
connection to whatever this 
other realm is? 

1710
01:43:41,980 --> 01:43:44,220
Meaning that like maybe a 
tryptamine would allow you to 

1711
01:43:44,220 --> 01:43:48,500
see more tropane, kind of like, 
I don't know, it just seems like

1712
01:43:48,500 --> 01:43:51,300
it's more static or something. 
I. 

1713
01:43:51,300 --> 01:43:53,860
Think about him as different, 
almost like different dimensions

1714
01:43:53,860 --> 01:43:57,170
you're tapping into. 
You're not seeing more with the 

1715
01:43:57,170 --> 01:43:59,890
tryptamines, You're seeing 
something specific to the 

1716
01:43:59,890 --> 01:44:04,570
tryptamines. 
And I always was reluctant to 

1717
01:44:04,650 --> 01:44:09,370
articulate anything like that 
because it sounds so New Agey 

1718
01:44:09,370 --> 01:44:12,210
and you have to have faith in a 
play. 

1719
01:44:12,210 --> 01:44:16,170
But it wasn't until I. 
Know those people can't even 

1720
01:44:16,330 --> 01:44:19,690
touch this conversation. 
Taking these substances with 

1721
01:44:19,690 --> 01:44:23,330
other people and having shared 
hallucinations now. 

1722
01:44:23,820 --> 01:44:25,940
The concept of what's called 
philia do. 

1723
01:44:27,580 --> 01:44:33,340
It's a French psychology term 
for a madness shared by two. 

1724
01:44:33,340 --> 01:44:36,380
Or you can have philia trois, 
or, you know, however many are 

1725
01:44:36,380 --> 01:44:39,660
involved. 
That's an old concept, but just 

1726
01:44:39,660 --> 01:44:42,100
cause we have a word for it 
doesn't mean it explains what's 

1727
01:44:42,100 --> 01:44:46,500
happening. 
And I've had so many experiences

1728
01:44:46,500 --> 01:44:50,060
with other persons on mushrooms,
on LSD, on. 

1729
01:44:50,430 --> 01:44:55,430
Ayahuasca, where we're observing
and discussing the same visuals 

1730
01:44:56,030 --> 01:44:59,550
I've had experiences where 
legitimate telepathy was like. 

1731
01:44:59,590 --> 01:45:06,550
Frequency sync, I call it. 
Yeah, and it's so unexplainable 

1732
01:45:06,550 --> 01:45:09,670
if we're not looking at 
something that's real, even if 

1733
01:45:09,670 --> 01:45:12,430
it's simply that we're looking 
into the projections of our own 

1734
01:45:12,430 --> 01:45:15,950
unconscious and we're able to 
visualize that as a field 

1735
01:45:15,950 --> 01:45:20,030
outside of ourself. 
That still is pretty heavy. 

1736
01:45:20,110 --> 01:45:23,150
You know what like what do we do
with that? 

1737
01:45:23,550 --> 01:45:28,910
But it it really, my intuition 
is that and I might be wrong, 

1738
01:45:28,910 --> 01:45:33,190
but I really do feel like we're 
we're tapping into, observing, 

1739
01:45:33,270 --> 01:45:36,830
participating with things that 
are always happening around us. 

1740
01:45:37,150 --> 01:45:41,790
But that like Huxley said, our, 
our, our internal funnel filters

1741
01:45:41,790 --> 01:45:45,470
that out because it has nothing 
to do with our survival in this 

1742
01:45:45,470 --> 01:45:49,120
moment, but. 
Sometimes you need a trip to the

1743
01:45:49,120 --> 01:45:51,360
underworld to bring back the 
Greeks. 

1744
01:45:51,360 --> 01:45:54,920
Would do would do this for to 
bring back laws or like 

1745
01:45:54,920 --> 01:45:57,960
Parmenides. 
Greg and I were talking about a 

1746
01:45:57,960 --> 01:46:00,480
while ago and I sent him a quote
from Parmenides today, but. 

1747
01:46:01,320 --> 01:46:03,440
He's. 
The father of logic, he 

1748
01:46:03,440 --> 01:46:07,960
introduced logic to Western 
philosophy, and he claims to 

1749
01:46:07,960 --> 01:46:11,980
have gotten it by. 
What they call incubation, 

1750
01:46:11,980 --> 01:46:15,940
laying down still for sometimes 
days at a time in a dark space 

1751
01:46:16,180 --> 01:46:19,380
and traveling to the underworld 
where he met a goddess who 

1752
01:46:19,380 --> 01:46:24,060
taught him this and he brings it
back and it becomes the the law 

1753
01:46:24,060 --> 01:46:27,060
that inaugurates a new era of 
mankind. 

1754
01:46:28,540 --> 01:46:34,100
Epimenities is another ancient 
pre Socratic Greek philosopher 

1755
01:46:34,100 --> 01:46:36,600
Who would? 
Leave his body, go into the 

1756
01:46:36,600 --> 01:46:39,520
underworld and come back with 
new laws for people. 

1757
01:46:40,240 --> 01:46:42,600
Yeah, I. 
Love to speculate, right? 

1758
01:46:42,600 --> 01:46:45,280
Along the side to this, what 
he's talking about bringing back

1759
01:46:45,480 --> 01:46:49,080
techniques for healing, bringing
back booms of wisdom, even 

1760
01:46:49,080 --> 01:46:53,160
bringing back the souls of 
people, dead people and live 

1761
01:46:53,160 --> 01:46:56,040
people. 
You know, if you, if you had, if

1762
01:46:56,040 --> 01:46:58,320
you were suffering from what we 
would call depression. 

1763
01:46:58,910 --> 01:47:01,710
They would see that as one of 
your multiple souls having 

1764
01:47:01,710 --> 01:47:05,110
gotten gotten away and is 
already kind of waiting on you 

1765
01:47:05,230 --> 01:47:08,430
in the land of the dead, and the
shaman has to go recover it and 

1766
01:47:08,430 --> 01:47:11,510
bring it back. 
That sounds insane to us. 

1767
01:47:11,710 --> 01:47:15,510
And and even more insane is the 
notion that you could get laws 

1768
01:47:15,710 --> 01:47:19,110
that would govern an entire 
group of people from something 

1769
01:47:19,110 --> 01:47:21,410
like this. 
But I truly believe that's 

1770
01:47:21,410 --> 01:47:23,650
what's going on. 
And there there, there have been

1771
01:47:23,650 --> 01:47:27,290
innovations in the scientific 
world from this philosophy, the 

1772
01:47:27,290 --> 01:47:30,010
philosophical world. 
Parmenides is a good example. 

1773
01:47:30,930 --> 01:47:32,770
Earlier we were talking about 
Casey. 

1774
01:47:32,930 --> 01:47:34,450
Greg was talking about Edgar 
Casey. 

1775
01:47:35,410 --> 01:47:39,090
Wasn't there a case where he 
said that they needed a screw 

1776
01:47:40,570 --> 01:47:44,170
put in their bone to put their 
bone, their broken bones back 

1777
01:47:44,170 --> 01:47:46,450
together? 
And that was the first time a 

1778
01:47:46,450 --> 01:47:48,570
screw had been used in in 
medicine. 

1779
01:47:48,570 --> 01:47:51,320
Is that true? 
Wow, that I've never heard of 

1780
01:47:51,320 --> 01:47:53,080
that. 
I wouldn't doubt it a bit that 

1781
01:47:53,360 --> 01:47:55,080
there are lots of things where 
Casey I've. 

1782
01:47:55,240 --> 01:47:57,360
Heard that too. 
Person to say something, but 

1783
01:47:57,360 --> 01:48:00,880
that's one I have not heard. 
He did that, Okay. 

1784
01:48:01,080 --> 01:48:03,760
It's probably true. 
I'm supposed to be a Casey 

1785
01:48:03,760 --> 01:48:07,080
expert, but my God, there's 
15,000 readings that are written

1786
01:48:07,080 --> 01:48:09,640
down. 
And I have. 

1787
01:48:10,000 --> 01:48:11,640
I will. 
You're right. 

1788
01:48:12,080 --> 01:48:15,120
But Casey, Casey had a lot of 
things like that where he was 

1789
01:48:15,470 --> 01:48:19,550
correct in the healing stuff and
a lot of very bizarre things 

1790
01:48:19,550 --> 01:48:22,550
that we wouldn't have enough 
time to touch any of it. 

1791
01:48:22,990 --> 01:48:26,150
There is something I want to say
and that is I believe it's all 

1792
01:48:26,150 --> 01:48:28,630
electromagnetic. 
I've said it before here and 

1793
01:48:28,630 --> 01:48:32,950
I've written that over and over.
I think that hallucinogens 

1794
01:48:33,350 --> 01:48:36,230
change. 
We're antenna, we are biological

1795
01:48:36,230 --> 01:48:40,110
antenna, and we interact with 
the electromagnetic fields 

1796
01:48:40,110 --> 01:48:42,430
around us all the time. 
Every human has an 

1797
01:48:42,430 --> 01:48:45,230
electromagnetic field, the Earth
has one. 

1798
01:48:45,990 --> 01:48:49,510
Every object around you is 
reflecting electromagnetic 

1799
01:48:49,510 --> 01:48:52,510
energy and we interact with it 
and I think. 

1800
01:48:52,510 --> 01:48:58,350
That story of your buddy from 
your Origins of the Gods book? 

1801
01:48:58,350 --> 01:49:00,030
Your buddy that was sitting in 
your chair? 

1802
01:49:00,750 --> 01:49:03,940
Yeah. 
The Native American. 

1803
01:49:04,020 --> 01:49:07,340
The Cheyenne Aero Priest. 
He wasn't a shame. 

1804
01:49:07,340 --> 01:49:09,940
And he was an Aero Priest, which
is similar to a shame, yeah. 

1805
01:49:10,620 --> 01:49:13,940
You can listen to our episode 
Origin of the Gods for that 

1806
01:49:13,940 --> 01:49:15,980
story, Doctor. 
It's a pretty good story 

1807
01:49:16,660 --> 01:49:17,780
regarding what we're talking 
about. 

1808
01:49:17,780 --> 01:49:23,180
But PD, so you know, we were 
talking about the mysteries and 

1809
01:49:23,180 --> 01:49:24,780
stuff like that. 
Here's this quote from Plato 

1810
01:49:24,780 --> 01:49:28,820
from the Fato dialogue, which is
our mysteries had a very real 

1811
01:49:28,820 --> 01:49:31,130
meaning. 
He that has been purified and 

1812
01:49:31,130 --> 01:49:33,770
initiated shall dealt dwell with
the gods. 

1813
01:49:34,050 --> 01:49:39,770
Now this is assumed that this is
this comes from his experience 

1814
01:49:40,370 --> 01:49:42,610
from the Elucidian mystery. 
Somebody else mentioned the 

1815
01:49:42,610 --> 01:49:43,770
Elucidian mysteries in the 
comments. 

1816
01:49:43,770 --> 01:49:47,570
I thought I'd bring it up. 
I've speculated this before. 

1817
01:49:47,570 --> 01:49:51,290
I told you this, I think PD. 
Like I could totally see from 

1818
01:49:51,290 --> 01:49:56,930
the Elucidian mysteries like 
Euclid, you know, seeing 

1819
01:49:56,930 --> 01:50:00,410
geometrical patterns and then. 
Implementing them into real 

1820
01:50:00,410 --> 01:50:04,250
life, I could see Plato, There's
the plutonium cave right there, 

1821
01:50:04,250 --> 01:50:06,570
right at a lucis. 
He could have had this 

1822
01:50:06,570 --> 01:50:09,250
experience, walked over The Cave
and came up with the allegory of

1823
01:50:09,250 --> 01:50:13,210
The Cave. 
Parmenides, you know, you 

1824
01:50:13,210 --> 01:50:15,810
mentioned, you know, all these 
guys, Heraclitus, like, who 

1825
01:50:15,810 --> 01:50:19,290
knows how many of them actually 
participated, But they come up 

1826
01:50:19,290 --> 01:50:23,730
with these very interesting ways
to look at the world and even 

1827
01:50:23,730 --> 01:50:25,330
the universe. 
They respected the lady about 

1828
01:50:25,330 --> 01:50:27,610
the universe, some of them at 
that point, so. 

1829
01:50:28,180 --> 01:50:30,340
Do you have any thoughts? 
Like, do you think that those 

1830
01:50:30,340 --> 01:50:32,820
are specifically tied to 
entheogens from the 

1831
01:50:32,820 --> 01:50:34,860
hallucinating mysteries, or do 
you think those dudes were? 

1832
01:50:34,860 --> 01:50:36,300
Yeah, yeah, that's what I 
thought. 

1833
01:50:36,300 --> 01:50:39,340
Right here in the quote you see 
it says purified and initiated. 

1834
01:50:39,820 --> 01:50:42,780
That refers to the two stages of
the initiation. 

1835
01:50:42,780 --> 01:50:46,060
Here in the West we think 
initiation means a beginning 

1836
01:50:46,060 --> 01:50:48,100
initial, the initial stages of 
something. 

1837
01:50:48,620 --> 01:50:52,220
But the words the Greek used are
catharsis for purification, 

1838
01:50:52,220 --> 01:50:55,860
which is literally the purge, 
the purging part and then 

1839
01:50:55,860 --> 01:50:59,420
initiation. 
What we translate is initiate is

1840
01:50:59,700 --> 01:51:02,300
their word telete, which 
actually means perfection. 

1841
01:51:02,300 --> 01:51:06,740
It's not a beginning but an end.
And that the same terminology 

1842
01:51:06,740 --> 01:51:09,340
was adopted by the early 
Christian Church, the Orthodox 

1843
01:51:09,340 --> 01:51:12,700
Christians. 
And they had what we would call 

1844
01:51:12,700 --> 01:51:15,540
a three degree system very 
similar to Masonry and these 

1845
01:51:15,540 --> 01:51:19,820
other initiatory orders where 
the first stage of of 

1846
01:51:20,060 --> 01:51:23,740
participation is baptism. 
That's the purgation, the the 

1847
01:51:23,740 --> 01:51:26,300
catharsis part, the second 
stage. 

1848
01:51:26,740 --> 01:51:29,580
Is the initiation, the telete, 
the perfection. 

1849
01:51:29,820 --> 01:51:34,300
This is done by anointing the 
crismation where they put an oil

1850
01:51:34,300 --> 01:51:37,460
on you. 
Now if you look at the earliest 

1851
01:51:37,460 --> 01:51:40,340
example we have of what the 
early Christians were doing was 

1852
01:51:40,340 --> 01:51:46,140
from a philosopher named Kelsus.
And Kelsus is describing the 

1853
01:51:46,220 --> 01:51:49,460
Christian secret initiatory 
practices and after they're 

1854
01:51:49,460 --> 01:51:52,700
baptized, which during this 
baptism, they have to place a 

1855
01:51:52,700 --> 01:51:55,980
plant in their mouth. 
That nobody knows what this 

1856
01:51:55,980 --> 01:52:00,100
plant is, but the same plant 
shows up in plenty of the Elder 

1857
01:52:00,300 --> 01:52:04,420
when he says that it's used in 
necromancy rituals, and it was 

1858
01:52:04,420 --> 01:52:07,780
used once to call the spirit of 
Homer out of the underworld. 

1859
01:52:08,140 --> 01:52:12,260
So it's directly associated with
visionary stuff, underworld 

1860
01:52:12,340 --> 01:52:15,580
imagery. 
But then, following this, 

1861
01:52:15,580 --> 01:52:18,420
they're anointed with something 
they call the white unguent of 

1862
01:52:18,420 --> 01:52:21,680
the Tree of life. 
And this causes them to leave 

1863
01:52:21,680 --> 01:52:25,160
their body and travel upwards 
through the seven levels of the 

1864
01:52:25,160 --> 01:52:31,280
heavens Now origin the famous 
early Orthodox Christian Church.

1865
01:52:31,280 --> 01:52:35,600
Father, He rebutted this and he 
wrote this book an 8 I think an 

1866
01:52:35,600 --> 01:52:39,160
8 volume rebuttal. 
But he didn't rebut this. 

1867
01:52:39,160 --> 01:52:40,720
He didn't say no, we don't do 
that. 

1868
01:52:40,720 --> 01:52:44,440
What he really complained about 
was that Kelsus got their levels

1869
01:52:44,440 --> 01:52:48,600
of heavens out of order. 
So his beef was that you you've 

1870
01:52:48,600 --> 01:52:51,080
mixed our stuff up. 
Not that you're accusing us of 

1871
01:52:51,360 --> 01:52:54,280
using this ointment that causes 
us to leave our body. 

1872
01:52:54,880 --> 01:52:59,560
Those are the same 2 stages, 
Purified and Initiated Catharsis

1873
01:52:59,600 --> 01:53:06,160
and telete purgation, followed 
by the perfection which is is 

1874
01:53:06,800 --> 01:53:10,400
taking you from zero to 100 
using some substance. 

1875
01:53:12,840 --> 01:53:17,640
Interesting. 
So the other aspect of this is, 

1876
01:53:20,080 --> 01:53:24,640
so I was holding a Twitter space
or X space, whatever you want to

1877
01:53:24,640 --> 01:53:26,600
call it. 
This was a while ago, This was 

1878
01:53:26,600 --> 01:53:29,400
probably like a year ago, and it
was actually on UF O's believe, 

1879
01:53:29,760 --> 01:53:33,480
believe it or not. 
There was a woman from Greece 

1880
01:53:33,480 --> 01:53:36,200
who I don't know how we got 
talking about, but we started 

1881
01:53:36,200 --> 01:53:39,040
talking about the Lucidian 
mysteries and I asked them like,

1882
01:53:39,040 --> 01:53:42,240
is it common knowledge that they
had like ergot or some 

1883
01:53:42,240 --> 01:53:44,200
psychoactive compound in the 
kekeon? 

1884
01:53:44,790 --> 01:53:48,590
And she said that she thought it
was mushrooms. 

1885
01:53:48,590 --> 01:53:51,670
And she said the reason why I 
think this is because the 

1886
01:53:51,670 --> 01:53:56,190
ancient word for one grape is 
the same as mushroom or 

1887
01:53:56,190 --> 01:53:59,750
something along those lines. 
So I don't know if that's true, 

1888
01:53:59,750 --> 01:54:03,030
but maybe we can, you know, 
collaborate and follow up on 

1889
01:54:03,030 --> 01:54:04,470
that and see if there's anything
to it. 

1890
01:54:05,110 --> 01:54:07,790
Karl Rook has a book he wrote. 
You know he's most famous for 

1891
01:54:07,790 --> 01:54:09,950
his road to Elusis, where they 
put forth the. 

1892
01:54:10,980 --> 01:54:14,620
Ergotized Barley theory. 
But he's got another book called

1893
01:54:14,620 --> 01:54:19,100
Sacred Mushrooms of the Goddess 
where he's exploring all of the 

1894
01:54:19,100 --> 01:54:21,900
potential references to 
mushrooms in an elucidian 

1895
01:54:21,900 --> 01:54:25,220
context, and he does a great 
job. 

1896
01:54:25,380 --> 01:54:29,550
Ruck always does a great job. 
Yeah, yeah, I know. 

1897
01:54:29,590 --> 01:54:32,430
And I've been critical of 
Morescu and because of doesn't 

1898
01:54:32,510 --> 01:54:34,870
he does never used psychedelics 
and he wrote a whole book on it 

1899
01:54:34,870 --> 01:54:37,110
and everything, but there's a 
lot of good information in 

1900
01:54:37,110 --> 01:54:38,670
there. 
So I recommend the immortality 

1901
01:54:38,670 --> 01:54:41,830
key at least people check it out
because there is actual 

1902
01:54:41,830 --> 01:54:44,270
archaeological evidence in there
and stuff like that. 

1903
01:54:45,670 --> 01:54:48,470
You know, and and with all these
people, you know, like we have 

1904
01:54:48,470 --> 01:54:51,790
had Chris Benedon, I think he's 
an excellent cannabis scholar 

1905
01:54:51,790 --> 01:54:54,760
and. 
You know, I think with SOMA and 

1906
01:54:54,760 --> 01:54:57,560
all that stuff, look, there's 
people doing real research out 

1907
01:54:57,560 --> 01:54:59,400
there. 
That's not necessarily within 

1908
01:54:59,400 --> 01:55:02,280
academia, but it's very, very 
credible where they, when they 

1909
01:55:02,280 --> 01:55:05,560
bring it to academia, they're 
like, whoa, you know, like this 

1910
01:55:05,560 --> 01:55:08,680
is impressive. 
So these are the. 

1911
01:55:09,560 --> 01:55:12,000
Academics. 
They work on grants, right? 

1912
01:55:12,120 --> 01:55:14,800
You know they can only write 
about and research what they're 

1913
01:55:14,800 --> 01:55:16,880
being paid to write about and 
research on. 

1914
01:55:17,240 --> 01:55:19,080
Well, they're also. 
Getting a bad name, I will. 

1915
01:55:20,110 --> 01:55:23,070
I do have to vouch from partly 
because when I started the show 

1916
01:55:23,070 --> 01:55:25,830
I knew nothing about 
archaeology, but I was sure that

1917
01:55:25,830 --> 01:55:29,670
the pyramids had some weirder, 
you know, origin. 

1918
01:55:30,150 --> 01:55:33,030
Now having look at looked at the
archaeological record, I 

1919
01:55:33,070 --> 01:55:36,910
understand their frustration. 
There is a lot of stuff that is 

1920
01:55:36,910 --> 01:55:41,110
easily explainable through logic
and reason and the stuff that 

1921
01:55:41,110 --> 01:55:43,870
they put out. 
However, most people going up 

1922
01:55:43,870 --> 01:55:47,220
against them or saying. 
You know, this rhetoric or that 

1923
01:55:47,220 --> 01:55:51,300
rhetoric from Graham Hancock or 
whatever that, you know, they're

1924
01:55:51,300 --> 01:55:55,100
the the cabal or the, you know, 
academia or whatever. 

1925
01:55:55,380 --> 01:55:57,540
I don't think. 
I think that that's, if 

1926
01:55:57,540 --> 01:56:03,180
anything, just a bad pattern or 
system, like there's flaws 

1927
01:56:03,180 --> 01:56:06,220
within that system as opposed to
there being anything malignant. 

1928
01:56:07,060 --> 01:56:10,740
I would say though. 
Most people do your research, 

1929
01:56:10,740 --> 01:56:13,460
look at the mainstream, don't 
just say, oh they couldn't have 

1930
01:56:13,460 --> 01:56:15,780
done this using whatever. 
Have you looked at all the 

1931
01:56:15,780 --> 01:56:17,820
methods? 
Because there's a lot of 

1932
01:56:17,820 --> 01:56:21,220
impressive research out there 
again and and some people are 

1933
01:56:21,220 --> 01:56:24,100
doing mainstream research that 
aren't even in academia that are

1934
01:56:24,100 --> 01:56:27,100
doing cool stuff too. 
So you have to really look at 

1935
01:56:27,100 --> 01:56:29,260
everything if you want to fight 
with people online. 

1936
01:56:29,420 --> 01:56:31,860
I suggest you do your homework. 
I suggest you look at the 

1937
01:56:31,860 --> 01:56:34,020
archaeological record. 
I suggest you look at the fringe

1938
01:56:34,020 --> 01:56:35,820
stuff. 
So if you're an archaeologist. 

1939
01:56:36,290 --> 01:56:38,050
Know what the fringe people are 
talking about. 

1940
01:56:38,050 --> 01:56:41,130
If you're a fringe person, know 
what the archaeologist or the 

1941
01:56:41,130 --> 01:56:42,930
scientist or whoever is talking 
about. 

1942
01:56:42,930 --> 01:56:46,450
That's the only way to knowledge
and truth, and I can't stress 

1943
01:56:46,450 --> 01:56:48,850
that enough. 
And if you think that you can 

1944
01:56:48,850 --> 01:56:52,010
watch one YouTube video or read 
one book and know everything, 

1945
01:56:52,010 --> 01:56:54,250
that's not going to happen. 
Knowledge is hard. 

1946
01:56:54,730 --> 01:56:55,610
Knowledge is hard. 
I. 

1947
01:56:57,570 --> 01:57:01,280
Agree. 
So I don't know if there's 

1948
01:57:01,280 --> 01:57:04,160
anything else you either of you 
wanted to touch on here before, 

1949
01:57:04,160 --> 01:57:06,600
but we can start to wrap it up 
here in a minute if you would 

1950
01:57:06,600 --> 01:57:08,000
like. 
I don't know if either of you, 

1951
01:57:10,440 --> 01:57:14,440
well, this has been a true treat
for me. 

1952
01:57:14,760 --> 01:57:16,360
I love both of you. 
You're awesome. 

1953
01:57:16,360 --> 01:57:19,440
Doctor Greg's books are awesome.
I love them. 

1954
01:57:20,520 --> 01:57:25,320
You know, P D's works awesome. 
Love his research as well. 

1955
01:57:26,280 --> 01:57:32,110
I think that again. 
You have to really take, you 

1956
01:57:32,110 --> 01:57:34,070
have to do your homework is what
it comes down to. 

1957
01:57:34,390 --> 01:57:37,190
There's stuff, you know if you 
want to have fun with this, 

1958
01:57:37,190 --> 01:57:38,990
that's cool. 
But I again, I see a lot of 

1959
01:57:38,990 --> 01:57:42,710
anger and people fighting and 
stuff like that. 

1960
01:57:42,710 --> 01:57:46,870
It's just like I see a lot of 
stuff that I know to not be true

1961
01:57:46,870 --> 01:57:49,430
because I've put in the time and
I'm not expecting everybody out 

1962
01:57:49,430 --> 01:57:53,430
there put in the time. 
But again, I think you get you 

1963
01:57:53,470 --> 01:57:56,190
you run dangerously close to 
Dunning Kruger when you start to

1964
01:57:56,190 --> 01:57:59,580
do that, so. 
Let's keep it on the up and up, 

1965
01:57:59,580 --> 01:58:01,660
people. 
Come on, Love, light, peace. 

1966
01:58:01,660 --> 01:58:03,140
If you don't know about 
something, try and learn 

1967
01:58:03,140 --> 01:58:04,220
something. 
That's the other thing. 

1968
01:58:04,260 --> 01:58:06,620
Instead of pretending like you 
know it about you, learn about 

1969
01:58:06,620 --> 01:58:10,020
it from somebody. 
So, all right, enough 

1970
01:58:10,100 --> 01:58:15,100
pontificating on my end, but I 
just ruined an amazing show, 

1971
01:58:15,100 --> 01:58:16,100
folks. 
Yeah, I did. 

1972
01:58:16,100 --> 01:58:19,140
No, you didn't. 
Yeah, you're absolutely correct.

1973
01:58:19,140 --> 01:58:22,860
That's that's exactly Pete. 
I'm I'm for people. 

1974
01:58:22,860 --> 01:58:24,340
I say this all the time to 
people. 

1975
01:58:24,340 --> 01:58:26,380
You're absolutely entitled your 
beliefs. 

1976
01:58:26,780 --> 01:58:29,460
If you want to believe the 
pyramid is 100,000 years old, 

1977
01:58:29,460 --> 01:58:30,900
that's fine. 
If you want to believe it was 

1978
01:58:30,900 --> 01:58:33,940
built by aliens, that's fine. 
I. 

1979
01:58:33,940 --> 01:58:36,660
Love John Anthony W He thought 
the Sphinx was potentially 

1980
01:58:36,900 --> 01:58:39,620
35,000 years old. 
I'm not saying, you know, 

1981
01:58:39,620 --> 01:58:41,940
whatever. 
But again, to your point, you 

1982
01:58:41,940 --> 01:58:44,100
can like somebody and not agree 
with what they're saying. 

1983
01:58:44,100 --> 01:58:46,660
Yeah, but there's no use 
arguing. 

1984
01:58:46,700 --> 01:58:51,220
I don't people, people tell me 
things all the time on Twitter. 

1985
01:58:51,220 --> 01:58:53,740
You know, I post mound stuff all
the time at Twitter. 

1986
01:58:54,250 --> 01:58:56,690
They will make statements and I 
just, I don't reply. 

1987
01:58:56,690 --> 01:58:59,290
There's no, you're saying you're
wrong or I disagree with it. 

1988
01:58:59,290 --> 01:59:01,250
I don't do that. 
People are entitled to believe 

1989
01:59:01,250 --> 01:59:03,930
what they want. 
I'm simply throwing out the 

1990
01:59:03,930 --> 01:59:05,930
information. 
They can get what they want out 

1991
01:59:05,930 --> 01:59:08,570
of it. 
And I think, I think that's 

1992
01:59:08,570 --> 01:59:10,530
fine. 
We're in a world today where if 

1993
01:59:10,530 --> 01:59:12,370
somebody disagrees, we'll get 
angry. 

1994
01:59:12,370 --> 01:59:15,170
We shouldn't. 
People are entitled to believe 

1995
01:59:15,170 --> 01:59:17,690
what they want to believe as 
long as you don't hurt others. 

1996
01:59:18,170 --> 01:59:23,700
That's my belief anyway. 
That's how I live so. 

1997
01:59:24,020 --> 01:59:27,820
That's the that's the old that's
the only way to live, bro. 

1998
01:59:28,820 --> 01:59:31,260
No, it was so. 
It was so profound that I 

1999
01:59:31,260 --> 01:59:33,460
couldn't say anything. 
My mute button was on. 

2000
01:59:33,460 --> 01:59:37,020
Go ahead, PD. 
That's I I don't have anything. 

2001
01:59:37,020 --> 01:59:38,780
I totally agree. 
You're right. 

2002
01:59:39,460 --> 01:59:44,820
Everything good begins with with
education, and there there's 

2003
01:59:45,260 --> 01:59:48,140
it's hard to know what to read 
because there's so much out 

2004
01:59:48,140 --> 01:59:51,020
there that's just noise, you 
know? 

2005
01:59:51,020 --> 01:59:53,680
But. 
The best place to start, the way

2006
01:59:53,680 --> 01:59:58,240
I I do it, is I go back to the 
early stuff and work my way up 

2007
01:59:59,720 --> 02:00:02,720
and then you get a good picture 
of how the ideas change the 

2008
02:00:02,720 --> 02:00:05,760
morphology and the topology of 
that territory. 

2009
02:00:06,080 --> 02:00:12,150
You see where ideas come in and.
No, that's not on, bro. 

2010
02:00:12,150 --> 02:00:13,950
That's what you should be doing.
It's perfect. 

2011
02:00:14,470 --> 02:00:18,590
Again, I have my new philosophy 
is to learn something new every 

2012
02:00:18,590 --> 02:00:21,070
day and implement that into my 
philosophy. 

2013
02:00:21,070 --> 02:00:23,270
So it's always changing. 
I'm never going to die on a hill

2014
02:00:23,270 --> 02:00:24,910
because I'm always learning 
something new. 

2015
02:00:25,110 --> 02:00:28,670
And I think if you don't have to
do it that way, you could, you 

2016
02:00:28,670 --> 02:00:30,350
know, have your own pet theory 
or whatever. 

2017
02:00:30,350 --> 02:00:34,150
But I think that you have to be 
open to new data and ideas. 

2018
02:00:34,150 --> 02:00:38,510
So PD, you're spot on, Doctor 
Greg, you're spot on. 

2019
02:00:38,590 --> 02:00:42,300
I think we all, we all really, 
we all really learned something 

2020
02:00:42,300 --> 02:00:44,700
here tonight and I really love 
that about this show. 

2021
02:00:45,460 --> 02:00:48,860
All the amazing comments, Shout 
out to screen name, shout out to

2022
02:00:48,860 --> 02:00:52,940
Sam, shout out to Julie, shout 
out to MPV. 

2023
02:00:53,540 --> 02:00:55,660
There's so many awesome people 
in the comments. 

2024
02:00:55,660 --> 02:01:00,100
Dougal was in here earlier. 
Who else do we have here? 

2025
02:01:00,100 --> 02:01:02,500
We got Chasing Mound Builders on
here. 

2026
02:01:03,620 --> 02:01:05,340
Yeah. 
So thank you so much for 

2027
02:01:05,340 --> 02:01:09,500
everybody that participated. 
Ask questions, interacted, 

2028
02:01:09,620 --> 02:01:12,300
screen name, had some real 
zingers comedy wise. 

2029
02:01:12,300 --> 02:01:17,140
So yeah, just so please go check
out Doctor Greg's books. 

2030
02:01:17,140 --> 02:01:19,300
I have the links to all of his 
books down below. 

2031
02:01:19,620 --> 02:01:21,980
I highly recommend them, Even 
his early stuff. 

2032
02:01:22,420 --> 02:01:24,620
You know, you think some of the 
stuff's outdated, some of it's 

2033
02:01:24,620 --> 02:01:28,060
more relevant than ever. 
The archetype experience on UF 

2034
02:01:28,060 --> 02:01:30,100
O's and Gray aliens and stuff 
like that. 

2035
02:01:31,420 --> 02:01:36,350
You know that stuff worth 
looking into And then on PDS and

2036
02:01:36,630 --> 02:01:40,190
read Alchemically Stone and then
from there check out Angels and 

2037
02:01:40,190 --> 02:01:42,350
for Million and he's got a new 
one coming out to where he's 

2038
02:01:42,350 --> 02:01:46,430
gonna probably talk about his 
misa waska hypothesis I've. 

2039
02:01:46,710 --> 02:01:48,950
Got the The Theology Book. 
Oh yeah, that's right. 

2040
02:01:49,830 --> 02:01:52,350
December 5th, and it'll probably
be. 

2041
02:01:53,070 --> 02:01:54,870
What's the name of that one? 
What's the theorgy? 

2042
02:01:54,870 --> 02:01:57,310
One named Theorgy. 
Theory and practice. 

2043
02:01:57,630 --> 02:01:59,590
Mysteries of the Ascent to the 
Divine. 

2044
02:01:59,910 --> 02:02:01,870
And it's looking at the same 
model that that. 

2045
02:02:02,210 --> 02:02:04,930
That Greg talks about in his 
Path of Souls book. 

2046
02:02:06,130 --> 02:02:10,010
But it's taken place in Greece 
and it's it's it's identical 

2047
02:02:10,010 --> 02:02:14,410
that with the entry points in in
the Constellations and Getting 

2048
02:02:14,410 --> 02:02:21,170
on the Milky Way and it's 
uncanny and I'm I'm happy with 

2049
02:02:21,170 --> 02:02:24,130
it. 
It it's it explores the orgy for

2050
02:02:24,130 --> 02:02:29,730
the first time in in a practical
way which you don't see in any 

2051
02:02:29,730 --> 02:02:32,130
of the other published. 
Focus on the subject. 

2052
02:02:33,570 --> 02:02:35,250
Awesome. 
Well, we're looking forward to 

2053
02:02:35,250 --> 02:02:36,850
that. 
Looking forward to both of them 

2054
02:02:37,250 --> 02:02:39,930
and looking forward to Dr. 
Greg's next work too. 

2055
02:02:40,210 --> 02:02:42,930
I think you should be doing, I 
think you should be doing mound.

2056
02:02:42,930 --> 02:02:44,890
I think you should be taking 
people on mound trips. 

2057
02:02:44,890 --> 02:02:46,810
By the way, Dr. Greg. 
It's. 

2058
02:02:47,410 --> 02:02:50,610
We've had so many requests. 
Do it, bro. 

2059
02:02:50,610 --> 02:02:51,290
Just do it. 
We're. 

2060
02:02:51,290 --> 02:02:56,220
Considering it the IT just. 
I've only got so much time left 

2061
02:02:56,980 --> 02:03:00,460
and so much energy left, so I 
got to figure out where I'm 

2062
02:03:00,460 --> 02:03:02,820
best. 
Fast forward a year from now. 

2063
02:03:02,820 --> 02:03:08,460
He's performing shamanic ritual 
black drink rituals at Cahokia. 

2064
02:03:09,380 --> 02:03:12,460
I would say that that is a 
liability. 

2065
02:03:14,020 --> 02:03:17,500
That's a massive quicksand of 
liability right there. 

2066
02:03:17,700 --> 02:03:19,300
All that is but. 
Yeah. 

2067
02:03:20,310 --> 02:03:22,270
I'm. 
I've just got to stay on the 

2068
02:03:22,270 --> 02:03:25,190
little track I'm on. 
I've got a lot of projects 

2069
02:03:25,550 --> 02:03:28,590
juggling. 
I'm like a juggler juggling all 

2070
02:03:28,590 --> 02:03:32,270
kinds of things. 
But I've always done that and I 

2071
02:03:32,270 --> 02:03:34,790
just need to keep doing it. 
So I don't know. 

2072
02:03:34,790 --> 02:03:36,070
We'll see. 
Awesome, man. 

2073
02:03:36,070 --> 02:03:38,510
Well, I look forward to it. 
I appreciate. 

2074
02:03:38,550 --> 02:03:40,950
The opportunity of course, no 
problem. 

2075
02:03:42,070 --> 02:03:44,350
Again, check out both their 
works links down below. 

2076
02:03:44,350 --> 02:03:46,870
If you want to support Mind 
Escape, the best way to do it is

2077
02:03:46,870 --> 02:03:48,950
to click the link tree link down
below. 

2078
02:03:49,440 --> 02:03:51,560
We've got a merch store. 
We've got Patreon. 

2079
02:03:51,560 --> 02:03:54,400
Both of these fine gentlemen 
have episodes on our Patreon 

2080
02:03:54,400 --> 02:03:57,400
that are exclusive. 
We have an extended version of 

2081
02:03:57,400 --> 02:04:00,880
our documentary as Within So 
without from UFOs to DMT. 

2082
02:04:01,120 --> 02:04:03,080
Both of these gentlemen are in 
that as well. 

2083
02:04:03,960 --> 02:04:06,480
We have a free version of that 
as well on our YouTube, if 

2084
02:04:06,480 --> 02:04:10,270
you're interested. 
And yeah, if you want to leave 

2085
02:04:10,270 --> 02:04:14,590
us a nice review on Apple or 
Spotify, we do a video podcast 

2086
02:04:14,950 --> 02:04:16,870
on Spotify. 
And if you're listening to this 

2087
02:04:16,870 --> 02:04:20,150
again, there was slideshows and 
videos throughout this that 

2088
02:04:20,150 --> 02:04:21,910
correlated with what we were 
talking about. 

2089
02:04:22,350 --> 02:04:25,870
And thank you so much to both of
you again. 

2090
02:04:26,070 --> 02:04:28,510
I'm going to play the trailer 
for our documentary on the way 

2091
02:04:28,590 --> 02:04:33,110
out and we will have both of 
these gentlemen on in the future

2092
02:04:33,190 --> 02:04:35,150
and maybe even again. 
This was fun. 

2093
02:04:35,390 --> 02:04:39,730
I love this. 
All right, love, everybody stay 

2094
02:04:39,730 --> 02:04:42,210
safe out there. 
Peace I. 

2095
02:04:42,210 --> 02:04:44,610
Don't have to believe 
something's here. 

2096
02:04:45,410 --> 02:04:49,610
There's no question about that. 
They are not just from this 

2097
02:04:49,610 --> 02:04:52,490
planet, but based on the 
characteristics they're most 

2098
02:04:52,490 --> 02:04:55,050
often described having that 
they're simply us from the 

2099
02:04:55,050 --> 02:04:58,370
future it. 
Was the biggest aircraft I've 

2100
02:04:58,370 --> 02:05:03,730
ever seen in my entire life. 
It was semi translucent, it 

2101
02:05:03,730 --> 02:05:06,690
seemed we. 
See 4 orange orbs flying. 

2102
02:05:07,650 --> 02:05:09,810
One after another, basically in 
formation. 

2103
02:05:10,730 --> 02:05:14,690
I think in a way, you know, you 
could call a UFO a flying dream 

2104
02:05:14,850 --> 02:05:15,290
out of. 
The. 

2105
02:05:15,930 --> 02:05:19,730
That's 7 foot tall, Gray, 
menacing, communion, looking 

2106
02:05:20,130 --> 02:05:21,890
alien, or whatever you want to 
call it. 

2107
02:05:22,010 --> 02:05:23,050
Because. 
It can be. 

2108
02:05:24,080 --> 02:05:28,960
Multitude of things of deities, 
of God, like creatures, of 

2109
02:05:29,040 --> 02:05:31,840
aliens. 
The reality that we experience 

2110
02:05:31,840 --> 02:05:35,200
on a day-to-day basis seems to 
be this very, very thin slice of

2111
02:05:35,200 --> 02:05:40,840
something far larger and far 
more complex as within, so 

2112
02:05:40,840 --> 02:05:45,080
without from UFOs to DMT.