1 00:00:07,400 --> 00:00:12,200 Welcome back to Micah Maurices might Escape, let us help you 2 00:00:12,200 --> 00:00:42,500 escape your mind. All right, folks. 3 00:00:42,500 --> 00:00:45,300 Welcome back to Mike and Maurice's mind Escape. 4 00:00:45,800 --> 00:00:49,300 We have episode number, I believe it's 278. 5 00:00:49,300 --> 00:00:54,600 Today, I am your host, Mike. Maurice is still kind of in and 6 00:00:54,600 --> 00:00:56,600 out. We'll get them in when we can. 7 00:00:56,600 --> 00:00:59,800 And yeah, PD Newman was supposed to be on this episode here to 8 00:00:59,800 --> 00:01:02,500 take a quick flight out. So shout out to PD, will get you 9 00:01:02,500 --> 00:01:05,800 back on soon. And yeah, we have a special 10 00:01:05,800 --> 00:01:09,700 guest today, Alan Piper. And I'm really looking forward 11 00:01:09,700 --> 00:01:13,000 to this conversation regarding LSD and the secret history of 12 00:01:13,008 --> 00:01:18,000 LSD and all these amazing different little counterculture, 13 00:01:18,300 --> 00:01:20,100 you know, anecdotes and different things. 14 00:01:20,100 --> 00:01:22,400 So, we'll get to that in a second. 15 00:01:22,700 --> 00:01:27,200 You can check out Bicycle Day. I've been linked down below, 16 00:01:28,000 --> 00:01:31,200 it's through psychedelic press. Shout out to Rob at psychedelic 17 00:01:31,200 --> 00:01:34,800 press, and you can also buy it, I believe, on Amazon. 18 00:01:34,800 --> 00:01:36,800 I've, I've both those links down below. 19 00:01:38,000 --> 00:01:41,000 And, yeah, he just got back from the breaking convention where he 20 00:01:41,000 --> 00:01:43,500 spoke at, he said that there should be a video back up on 21 00:01:43,500 --> 00:01:46,000 there soon. And, yeah, if you want to 22 00:01:46,008 --> 00:01:49,000 support mind Escape, all you have to do, is click the link 23 00:01:49,000 --> 00:01:53,200 tree, link down below. We do have our documentary, 24 00:01:53,600 --> 00:01:57,800 which is up We've had a great, great reaction. 25 00:01:57,800 --> 00:02:00,300 We are still working on, trying to get a run on a platform where 26 00:02:00,300 --> 00:02:03,200 more people can see it, but if you want to watch the director's 27 00:02:03,200 --> 00:02:05,800 cut, all you have to do is go to our patreon. 28 00:02:05,800 --> 00:02:10,699 It's 777 and yeah, it's it's up there. 29 00:02:10,800 --> 00:02:13,000 So if you're interested, click the link tree link down below 30 00:02:13,300 --> 00:02:15,600 and again, our documentary is called as within. 31 00:02:15,600 --> 00:02:20,800 So without from UFOs, to DMT regarding the mind, and the UFO 32 00:02:20,800 --> 00:02:24,700 and DMT experiences. So, but, yeah, without further, 33 00:02:24,800 --> 00:02:25,800 Turiddu. Welcome on the show. 34 00:02:25,800 --> 00:02:28,700 Alan how are you? I'm good, thanks to. 35 00:02:28,700 --> 00:02:30,100 I think that in my gum, I'm fine. 36 00:02:30,300 --> 00:02:32,700 I'm fine. Yeah, a little worn yesterday. 37 00:02:32,700 --> 00:02:34,900 I took my four-year-old grandson, to the theme park. 38 00:02:35,500 --> 00:02:38,600 So that was like a long day, starting at 6:00 in the morning, 39 00:02:38,600 --> 00:02:41,100 to get back to the bouts of close to 8:00 at night. 40 00:02:41,400 --> 00:02:45,500 So, but other than other than that you're quite demanding, 41 00:02:45,500 --> 00:02:49,400 have a four-year-old taking him around a theme park, and he's 42 00:02:49,400 --> 00:02:51,400 myth because he can't go in some other rides because he's not 43 00:02:51,400 --> 00:02:53,700 like one me to point to and that. 44 00:02:53,700 --> 00:02:57,200 So you have to sort of guide it around and keep him keeping Get 45 00:02:57,200 --> 00:03:00,100 up, you know with if you one means or another but other than 46 00:03:00,100 --> 00:03:02,900 that thing, a little weary. After a long day with my 47 00:03:02,900 --> 00:03:05,000 four-year-old grandson, I'm really cool. 48 00:03:05,000 --> 00:03:07,400 I'm fine. Yeah, I can't even imagine that. 49 00:03:07,400 --> 00:03:11,000 Our little girl is one and a half and I remember my wife and 50 00:03:11,000 --> 00:03:15,200 I went to Disney World on our honeymoon and we were worn out. 51 00:03:15,200 --> 00:03:17,900 Just the two of us going around going on rides and eating food, 52 00:03:17,900 --> 00:03:20,700 and walking around and stuff. So, can't even imagine around, 53 00:03:20,700 --> 00:03:24,300 you know, chasing a little guy around and yeah, but I'm sure 54 00:03:24,300 --> 00:03:29,900 I'll experience it here soon. So your book bicycle day and 55 00:03:29,900 --> 00:03:34,900 other psychedelic essays, kind of that, it's just like a 56 00:03:34,900 --> 00:03:38,700 conglomeration of different things that you've written, but 57 00:03:38,700 --> 00:03:41,500 they all kind of like work through each other, right? 58 00:03:41,500 --> 00:03:47,600 So what was your inspiration for this book? 59 00:03:47,600 --> 00:03:51,600 And your previous book? I believe was what 2015, you 60 00:03:51,600 --> 00:03:54,400 wrote strange drugs, make for strange bedfellows about 61 00:03:54,400 --> 00:04:00,000 politics and all that stuff. Very much focusing on younger 62 00:04:00,700 --> 00:04:04,300 and a little bit, the radical rights interested in drugs and 63 00:04:04,300 --> 00:04:07,400 that is, I've not really focused on that so much recently, but I 64 00:04:07,408 --> 00:04:10,400 think that's still developing, really, and still a still an 65 00:04:10,400 --> 00:04:12,100 issue. And the link there through also 66 00:04:12,100 --> 00:04:15,400 kind of neo-paganism and neo-paganism and the radical, 67 00:04:15,400 --> 00:04:16,899 right? The connections, obviously, a 68 00:04:16,899 --> 00:04:20,800 fairly straightforward there and that you have a connection with 69 00:04:20,800 --> 00:04:25,600 the radical right neo-paganism. And sort of ensayo shamanism I 70 00:04:25,600 --> 00:04:26,800 suppose you can call it something. 71 00:04:27,200 --> 00:04:30,600 I'm sure people know what I mean, but that was an 72 00:04:30,600 --> 00:04:33,500 interesting adventure. And I had a certain amount of 73 00:04:33,500 --> 00:04:38,900 caution when that came out because talking about Hoffman's 74 00:04:38,900 --> 00:04:43,600 connections with urged younger, his closeness to younger who are 75 00:04:43,600 --> 00:04:49,900 after all was a supporter of the Nazis until hmm, quite a long 76 00:04:49,900 --> 00:04:52,500 way, on certainly pass the light of the Long Knives. 77 00:04:52,500 --> 00:04:56,000 Certainly pass kristallnacht according to his own account in 78 00:04:56,000 --> 00:05:00,300 interview. So he has what? 79 00:05:01,600 --> 00:05:03,000 One? That he's in the literary 80 00:05:03,000 --> 00:05:06,300 Experts of younger called a Jew. Be has passed. 81 00:05:06,300 --> 00:05:07,700 Yes. And it's not in you. 82 00:05:07,700 --> 00:05:10,600 Do disbursement off my must-have, well-known. 83 00:05:10,700 --> 00:05:15,300 You know what kind of figure younger was when he saw contact 84 00:05:15,300 --> 00:05:20,400 with him just after the second world war, but not directly can 85 00:05:20,600 --> 00:05:25,200 contingent to to these essays. What it actually, I say that it 86 00:05:25,200 --> 00:05:27,800 is a struggle. I have to remind Myself driving 87 00:05:27,800 --> 00:05:29,200 this out. He's a selection. 88 00:05:29,200 --> 00:05:32,400 You asking me how it arose and it really arose through Rob, 89 00:05:32,400 --> 00:05:33,500 Dickens of sake. Don't press. 90 00:05:33,500 --> 00:05:36,000 And thanks so much to him. I have to also named Nikki. 91 00:05:36,000 --> 00:05:38,800 We're due to a lot of the editing hours and hours of 92 00:05:39,100 --> 00:05:43,100 editing to improve some of the earlier published essays. 93 00:05:43,100 --> 00:05:48,400 So they're all barring the long bicycle de sa self Bicycle Day 94 00:05:48,400 --> 00:05:52,000 in ritual, myth and history and all been previously published, 95 00:05:52,000 --> 00:05:54,500 but they've been re-edited with certain amount of additional 96 00:05:54,500 --> 00:05:56,900 material. So the origin. 97 00:05:57,000 --> 00:06:00,600 Is what we lie in Rob, Dickens coming to me and saying, well, 98 00:06:00,600 --> 00:06:02,900 why don't we do a collection of your essays and get them 99 00:06:02,900 --> 00:06:04,800 together? So, I didn't publish in various 100 00:06:04,800 --> 00:06:07,100 places. I have to give a shout out to 101 00:06:07,100 --> 00:06:09,700 gwiyomi agree or has various monikers. 102 00:06:10,500 --> 00:06:13,100 The publisher of invisible College Journal, who published 103 00:06:13,100 --> 00:06:15,800 some of my essays previously and agree that they could be 104 00:06:15,800 --> 00:06:21,000 published here in this format. So that's really the origin in 105 00:06:21,000 --> 00:06:23,200 one sense. It's the most recent origin. 106 00:06:23,200 --> 00:06:27,300 Obviously, there's the origin in the essays themselves and My 107 00:06:27,300 --> 00:06:32,200 motivation in seeking out the stories behind these, these 108 00:06:32,200 --> 00:06:34,900 essays, which were all kind of historical, something of a 109 00:06:34,900 --> 00:06:38,900 different approach really to psychedelics, perhaps from the 110 00:06:38,900 --> 00:06:42,300 more conventional approach in, looking back to the pre-war 111 00:06:42,300 --> 00:06:45,500 period. In many cases, people tend to 112 00:06:45,500 --> 00:06:49,000 think of you're talking about the Psychedelic Renaissance, is 113 00:06:49,000 --> 00:06:57,200 the sort of buzzword of the, of the moment and and that's Going 114 00:06:57,200 --> 00:07:00,800 back, I think to the, to, the 60s really that argument a 115 00:07:00,808 --> 00:07:05,500 Renaissance after what some people would see as LSD research 116 00:07:05,500 --> 00:07:10,000 been compromised by the, you know, by the the popular culture 117 00:07:10,000 --> 00:07:12,800 at of psychedelics moment. It's really the, whether it's 118 00:07:12,800 --> 00:07:17,300 really to blame some people like to blame Timothy Leary and so on 119 00:07:18,100 --> 00:07:21,500 and such like, I think it's much more complex picture than that. 120 00:07:21,500 --> 00:07:24,000 But it's not, my speciality, not something that particular want 121 00:07:24,000 --> 00:07:29,900 to talk about anyhow. So, Historical approach to the 122 00:07:30,500 --> 00:07:35,000 to the history of psychedelics and still the hidden Corners. 123 00:07:35,000 --> 00:07:37,800 I suppose you might call it a psychedelic history. 124 00:07:37,800 --> 00:07:42,400 So if I remind myself yet again by just browsing and looking so 125 00:07:42,400 --> 00:07:47,600 we've got ya peyote at Harvard in these called Jazz Age, 126 00:07:47,600 --> 00:07:51,800 peyote's. Mm 1920s and 30s remarkable 127 00:07:51,800 --> 00:07:56,300 story some American readers might be familiar. 128 00:07:58,100 --> 00:08:03,400 With some of the figures involve not, so not so well known 129 00:08:03,400 --> 00:08:06,900 perhaps in the UK and then hope Modi slut in the Mist. 130 00:08:06,900 --> 00:08:12,600 This fantasy novel conceived in Paris of the 1920s, where the 131 00:08:12,600 --> 00:08:15,400 author hope murli's and her partner. 132 00:08:15,900 --> 00:08:18,400 And there were certainly viewed as being sort of a Sapphic 133 00:08:18,400 --> 00:08:23,500 partnership when her partner Jane Harrison that an important 134 00:08:23,500 --> 00:08:30,100 historian of Greek mythology. And they went to Paris and when 135 00:08:30,100 --> 00:08:33,400 she retired, what's called Paris less bossy because of its kind 136 00:08:33,400 --> 00:08:37,299 of center of lesbian literary culture and obviously there's a 137 00:08:37,299 --> 00:08:41,000 whole expatriate Ernest Hemingway and so on kind of 138 00:08:41,008 --> 00:08:46,700 thing going on at the same time so so there we have and yes 139 00:08:46,700 --> 00:08:49,900 David Lindsay as the author states of did David Lindsay. 140 00:08:49,900 --> 00:08:54,300 So there's an English author who wrote this relatively well-known 141 00:08:54,300 --> 00:08:59,400 book Forge to Arcturus. Which was kind of rediscovered 142 00:08:59,400 --> 00:09:04,100 in the Psychedelic 60s and that Ballantine fantasy series is one 143 00:09:04,100 --> 00:09:07,800 of the earliest ones that some was republished by Ballantine 144 00:09:09,000 --> 00:09:11,900 and curiously. The fact that there's some clear 145 00:09:11,900 --> 00:09:15,300 references to Altered States in that, that novel voice to 146 00:09:15,300 --> 00:09:19,100 Arcturus is kind of a science fiction fantasy, where some of 147 00:09:19,100 --> 00:09:23,800 voyages to a another planet revolving around a star 148 00:09:23,800 --> 00:09:29,100 Arcturus, and this is strange. Teachers grows strange 149 00:09:29,100 --> 00:09:33,900 additional organs of perception. And within the story, he drinks 150 00:09:33,900 --> 00:09:38,000 and eat various substances on this alien planet, that ought to 151 00:09:38,000 --> 00:09:41,000 his Consciousness. But strangely no one until I 152 00:09:41,008 --> 00:09:46,400 wrote about it seems to have picked up on the presence of of 153 00:09:47,000 --> 00:09:49,600 these states of altered Consciousness but very subtly 154 00:09:49,600 --> 00:09:53,000 described within perhaps in that way, perhaps like the easily 155 00:09:53,000 --> 00:09:56,100 read over. But so subtly described to me 156 00:09:56,200 --> 00:10:00,800 Me, that suggests that the author had some, some not sure 157 00:10:00,800 --> 00:10:03,300 of the exact data rate that was the one of the more interesting 158 00:10:03,300 --> 00:10:06,800 ones to me when I read it because I knew about a lot of 159 00:10:06,800 --> 00:10:10,500 the other stuff, but the that story I never even heard of and 160 00:10:10,500 --> 00:10:13,300 you're right. It kind of like a alien Alice in 161 00:10:13,300 --> 00:10:15,300 Wonderland or something like that. 162 00:10:15,800 --> 00:10:17,900 Hmm. Have you got to read the novel 163 00:10:17,900 --> 00:10:20,500 since or? No. 164 00:10:20,500 --> 00:10:24,100 No, I have not. But, you know, I'm gonna have to 165 00:10:24,108 --> 00:10:28,500 check it out now. But it's it's interesting that 166 00:10:28,500 --> 00:10:31,500 did it was rediscovered when certainly psychedelics has 167 00:10:31,500 --> 00:10:35,000 something to do, right? The the renewed interest in 168 00:10:35,000 --> 00:10:38,700 fantasy novels from the 1920s, or the end of the century, 169 00:10:38,700 --> 00:10:40,900 really? And so on writers like dumb 170 00:10:40,900 --> 00:10:44,700 Sunday and so on, who are kind of rediscovered. 171 00:10:44,800 --> 00:10:47,500 This really interesting early fantasy novels. 172 00:10:47,700 --> 00:10:50,200 And of course dunsany had stories involving hashish. 173 00:10:50,400 --> 00:10:53,300 Yes, for me there, one. Like I said I'll have to 174 00:10:53,500 --> 00:10:56,000 actually most of what I read is nonfiction. 175 00:10:56,100 --> 00:10:57,800 Action, that's just what interests me. 176 00:10:57,800 --> 00:11:03,200 But I make an exception, you know, for like sci-fi or, you 177 00:11:03,200 --> 00:11:05,500 know, Philip K dick like that kind of stuff. 178 00:11:05,500 --> 00:11:07,400 So I'll tell definitely check it out. 179 00:11:07,900 --> 00:11:10,000 Like I said I find it interesting but yeah I really 180 00:11:10,000 --> 00:11:13,000 wanted to talk to you because I'm really fascinated with 181 00:11:13,000 --> 00:11:17,100 ancient and ritualistic psychedelic use pertaining to 182 00:11:17,100 --> 00:11:20,000 you know like we're talking like a lucid and Mysteries and Soma 183 00:11:20,300 --> 00:11:24,100 and all that kind of stuff. But I also got into this whole 184 00:11:24,100 --> 00:11:27,700 thing when I was 13, 14 years old, my cousin and I were in the 185 00:11:27,700 --> 00:11:32,200 same English class and we were allowed to read whatever we 186 00:11:32,200 --> 00:11:33,400 want. So we picked the Electric 187 00:11:33,400 --> 00:11:35,800 Kool-Aid, Acid Test, by Tom Wolfe. 188 00:11:36,500 --> 00:11:39,300 And from there, it was like Off to the Races and we're reading 189 00:11:39,300 --> 00:11:43,400 all of Hunter Thompson stuff, all of, you know, on the road 190 00:11:43,400 --> 00:11:46,300 Jack, Kerouac object hair wax books, all that kind of stuff. 191 00:11:46,300 --> 00:11:49,600 So this really fascinating because it kind of marries the 192 00:11:49,600 --> 00:11:53,500 two things together, the kind of the more, a cult and secret 193 00:11:53,500 --> 00:11:57,600 stuff mixed with the more current Counterculture 60s 194 00:11:57,600 --> 00:12:00,200 stuff. So, yeah, I really wanted to 195 00:12:00,800 --> 00:12:05,500 discuss this with you. So, in terms of, I do want to 196 00:12:05,500 --> 00:12:09,700 talk about Leo perutz and the same Peter snow and I like I 197 00:12:09,700 --> 00:12:12,800 said we had PD Newman on a couple, you know, it's been a 198 00:12:12,808 --> 00:12:14,200 month now. Actually, I just took like a 199 00:12:14,200 --> 00:12:18,100 month break Hiatus from doing the podcast, but when he was on 200 00:12:18,100 --> 00:12:21,100 last we were discussing st. Peter's snow and this idea of 201 00:12:21,100 --> 00:12:25,200 like a peace pill and trying to end Wars and that kind of a 202 00:12:25,200 --> 00:12:26,000 thing. So why? 203 00:12:26,100 --> 00:12:29,400 Don't you give us your take on it based on you reading. 204 00:12:29,400 --> 00:12:30,800 You just said, you just reread it. 205 00:12:31,500 --> 00:12:33,100 Well, I'll just rewrite this afternoon. 206 00:12:33,100 --> 00:12:37,900 I got to get a lot hit, some academia.edu web page which you 207 00:12:37,900 --> 00:12:40,400 can find if anyone who's interested can find the essay 208 00:12:40,400 --> 00:12:41,600 there, just under my name Island. 209 00:12:41,600 --> 00:12:44,700 Piper academia.edu people are probably familiar with the 210 00:12:44,700 --> 00:12:52,700 website and Well, so Leah perutz is Austrian author, published 211 00:12:52,700 --> 00:13:00,900 this novel in 1933, so 10 years before, as we understand it. 212 00:13:00,900 --> 00:13:03,400 Yes. The discovery of LSD or the 213 00:13:03,800 --> 00:13:08,200 hallucinogenic properties of LSD, by by Albert Hofmann, and 214 00:13:08,200 --> 00:13:13,000 there's a A whole bunch of elements really within this kind 215 00:13:13,000 --> 00:13:16,500 of mystery novel. I suppose you call it because 216 00:13:16,500 --> 00:13:19,500 part of the story behind the novel is this man. 217 00:13:19,500 --> 00:13:22,600 Awakening in hospital being told, he's been in a car crash, 218 00:13:25,000 --> 00:13:29,200 but he has other memories for which taking place that he's 219 00:13:29,200 --> 00:13:34,800 been injured in, in a, in an uprising by these peasants in 220 00:13:34,808 --> 00:13:38,200 this English, German Village. So it's nostril, novel set in 221 00:13:38,200 --> 00:13:42,500 Germany. And centers around the, the 222 00:13:42,500 --> 00:13:45,200 protagonists recollection that he's being. 223 00:13:45,200 --> 00:13:47,300 He's a doctor. There's he's been employed by 224 00:13:47,300 --> 00:13:55,200 this aristocratic Baron in this remote, German Village to be the 225 00:13:55,200 --> 00:13:59,100 local local doctor and to minister to local peasants, but 226 00:13:59,100 --> 00:14:02,100 he discovers one, you discovers that. 227 00:14:02,100 --> 00:14:09,000 The baron was a close friend of his of his father and, and the 228 00:14:09,000 --> 00:14:13,200 term, the It's been working on the development of a drug 229 00:14:13,300 --> 00:14:16,700 derived, from bodies and ergot type fungus, A parasitic fungus 230 00:14:16,700 --> 00:14:23,900 of wheat or rye and with the intention of of provoking a 231 00:14:23,900 --> 00:14:28,600 religious revival. So the baron has discovered that 232 00:14:29,700 --> 00:14:33,800 historically ergot poisoning has been responsible for these bouts 233 00:14:33,800 --> 00:14:38,800 of religious mania in the Middle Ages and further discovered that 234 00:14:38,800 --> 00:14:42,800 our got with a It's a catchment of the ages of the the ancient 235 00:14:42,800 --> 00:14:45,100 mystery religions of the Greeks and Romans and that's been 236 00:14:45,100 --> 00:14:47,200 handed down as a secret through history. 237 00:14:48,200 --> 00:14:52,700 So he's determined, he's also discovered or found this 238 00:14:54,000 --> 00:15:01,300 Protege, who's in the Royal Line, the Holy Roman Empire and 239 00:15:01,300 --> 00:15:05,400 he intends to get this men print so to speak or this this 240 00:15:05,400 --> 00:15:09,800 Pretender that he's discovered to get him back into power. 241 00:15:09,900 --> 00:15:13,700 Being engineered this religious revival with his it is per got 242 00:15:13,700 --> 00:15:18,600 derived drug. That's essentially, the story is 243 00:15:18,600 --> 00:15:20,600 a little bit more complicated. Now, there are other figures in 244 00:15:20,600 --> 00:15:23,600 which were all really quite interesting, the employs, a 245 00:15:23,600 --> 00:15:25,700 Greek, my Greek. But since you need Greek, 246 00:15:25,700 --> 00:15:28,400 biochemist, whose name is Kalisto. 247 00:15:29,100 --> 00:15:35,900 And, and it has a manager at of land manager who's a Russian 248 00:15:35,900 --> 00:15:38,200 émigré who has escaped from Russian Revolution. 249 00:15:39,800 --> 00:15:44,000 Anyhow, he wants to persuade the doctor to secretly administer 250 00:15:44,000 --> 00:15:47,100 that experimentally this drug. That's used to disease 251 00:15:47,100 --> 00:15:49,400 developed. The Kalisto, the biochemist is 252 00:15:49,400 --> 00:15:55,100 extracted from ergot and he reviewed all he pretends that he 253 00:15:55,100 --> 00:15:58,400 hasn't had no result but subsequently the baron invites, 254 00:15:58,400 --> 00:16:03,200 all the local peasantry to a fate, free beer and cakes and 255 00:16:03,300 --> 00:16:06,700 secretly administers this drug to The Local Peasant population. 256 00:16:08,600 --> 00:16:13,100 And rather than provoking a religious revival or religious 257 00:16:13,100 --> 00:16:15,300 feelings in them. It provokes a Communist 258 00:16:15,500 --> 00:16:20,000 Revolution in which the baron is killed, and the, the protagonist 259 00:16:20,000 --> 00:16:23,800 novel is injured and wakes up to find himself in hospital. 260 00:16:23,800 --> 00:16:30,000 So, that's the essence of it. So, the problematic you nature 261 00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:37,700 of the novel is, In several points not just a 1-1, it's 262 00:16:38,800 --> 00:16:41,900 predicting. So to speak, or for seeing the 263 00:16:41,900 --> 00:16:46,800 deriving of a, of a drug from our got, which has the effect of 264 00:16:48,500 --> 00:16:50,500 of invoking. Mystical can mystical 265 00:16:50,500 --> 00:16:56,000 experiences or religious experiences and then there's 266 00:16:56,000 --> 00:16:59,500 these other elements, the, the, the knowledge that our got was a 267 00:16:59,500 --> 00:17:04,000 secret sacrament of the, of the ages handed down through secret 268 00:17:04,000 --> 00:17:07,300 societies. Is which, of course, was not 269 00:17:07,300 --> 00:17:11,200 proposed really until the rotor losses was published by rho G by 270 00:17:11,200 --> 00:17:18,599 Washington and rock and, and Hoffman around 1975, something 271 00:17:18,599 --> 00:17:19,599 like that. I think. 272 00:17:20,900 --> 00:17:25,800 Anyway, so procedures that they don't make any reference in in 273 00:17:25,800 --> 00:17:28,000 the Rotorua Lucius to Brooks's, right? 274 00:17:28,000 --> 00:17:30,600 And in fact, foresees, that I think they were not unaware of 275 00:17:30,600 --> 00:17:32,200 it. Fact car broker is who is a 276 00:17:32,200 --> 00:17:35,700 friend of mine, uh, I wrote to him, When I first discovered, it 277 00:17:35,700 --> 00:17:39,000 was the first person I wrote to and I email Carlos is one of you 278 00:17:39,000 --> 00:17:45,100 heard of this book and the, you know, whatever title is now 279 00:17:45,100 --> 00:17:48,600 that, but just st. Peter snow is called, I think 280 00:17:48,600 --> 00:17:55,000 that's a sound Factory schnee in German originally and and and 281 00:17:55,000 --> 00:17:57,400 car wrote makes me by nothing. No he hadn't. 282 00:17:57,500 --> 00:18:01,000 And so the I said about researching in much more detail 283 00:18:01,000 --> 00:18:03,700 and wondering where perutz could you divide. 284 00:18:03,700 --> 00:18:09,900 This is Change your design ideas and and thus develop the asset 285 00:18:09,900 --> 00:18:12,600 that I finally had published in the journal time in mind. 286 00:18:13,600 --> 00:18:17,300 Yeah, the problem with the other problem with the other guy thing 287 00:18:17,300 --> 00:18:21,000 for me, like I said, I've been fascinated with all this 288 00:18:21,000 --> 00:18:24,200 obviously, you have a lot of people looking into the 289 00:18:24,200 --> 00:18:27,800 loosening Mysteries. Not just, you know, road to a 290 00:18:27,808 --> 00:18:29,400 lusus. But now you have like the 291 00:18:29,400 --> 00:18:32,700 immortality key, Brian, my rescue, and all that, and they 292 00:18:32,700 --> 00:18:36,200 find her got her. Remnants and these chalice from 293 00:18:36,300 --> 00:18:38,600 spectral analysis and different things. 294 00:18:40,900 --> 00:18:43,700 What are, how are they? Because ergot itself is actually 295 00:18:43,700 --> 00:18:48,500 kind of volatile in the human body causes seizures 296 00:18:48,500 --> 00:18:50,600 convulsions, all sorts of different things. 297 00:18:50,600 --> 00:18:54,900 So I know I don't know which one but they propose I think it was 298 00:18:54,900 --> 00:18:59,200 like Hoffman or maybe Rock proposed floating hot oil on the 299 00:18:59,200 --> 00:19:03,400 top of the vat during the loose. Any Mysteries to, you know, 300 00:19:05,100 --> 00:19:10,000 Extract the LSA from the, you know, the ergot or whatever. 301 00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:13,600 So I guess my whole thing with all this is has somebody 302 00:19:13,600 --> 00:19:17,500 successfully done this and if not why aren't our best, you 303 00:19:17,500 --> 00:19:20,600 know, ethno, botanist or whoever trying to look into this figure 304 00:19:20,600 --> 00:19:23,200 it out because I mean, that would be the first place I'd 305 00:19:23,200 --> 00:19:26,600 look wise number. Yeah, I said that's a 306 00:19:26,600 --> 00:19:31,700 fundamental problem, isn't it? So, I mean, one, one thing I 307 00:19:31,700 --> 00:19:38,100 guess that I've not seen any any report where the people have 308 00:19:38,300 --> 00:19:43,100 tried through the low doses of our got to see what kind of 309 00:19:43,100 --> 00:19:53,000 effect that has, but proposing a method by which, a sort of non 310 00:19:53,000 --> 00:19:56,300 toxic or not. So, toxic pollution. 311 00:19:56,300 --> 00:19:59,400 Jen could be derived from herb. Write something that people have 312 00:19:59,400 --> 00:20:02,600 worked on mean. Peter Webster was published with 313 00:20:02,600 --> 00:20:10,500 Karl Rock a friend of Rocks. He's proposed a possible 314 00:20:10,800 --> 00:20:16,200 solution so to speak but they're all hypothetical and 315 00:20:16,200 --> 00:20:20,700 hypothetical. And I mean, there is an issue 316 00:20:20,700 --> 00:20:27,600 that got does not appear to be exactly hallucinogenic in its 317 00:20:27,600 --> 00:20:38,700 raw form despite reports or, you know, again there's Terence 318 00:20:38,700 --> 00:20:40,900 McKenna. Is that famous, anecdote where 319 00:20:40,900 --> 00:20:45,600 he's talking about this guy who they asked to bring a bunch of 320 00:20:45,600 --> 00:20:48,200 powder. Got to a dealer that was going 321 00:20:48,200 --> 00:20:52,500 to make LSD, but you, obviously, you need all the precursors and 322 00:20:52,508 --> 00:20:54,300 they're like, don't do anything. Don't take it. 323 00:20:54,300 --> 00:20:57,000 It's not anything that, you know, will get you high or 324 00:20:57,000 --> 00:21:00,100 whatever in the guy, honked up a big line and they found them 325 00:21:00,100 --> 00:21:02,700 like convulsing all over the ground and stuff like that. 326 00:21:02,700 --> 00:21:07,200 So, yeah, it's not, it's not something people should be going 327 00:21:07,200 --> 00:21:10,900 out there and And in try, but I've heard speculations. 328 00:21:10,900 --> 00:21:13,500 Like you said, kind of like, Rumblings of people trying 329 00:21:13,500 --> 00:21:17,300 things and different things. But yeah, I mean it would it 330 00:21:17,300 --> 00:21:20,400 would, it would solve a lot of problems if they could just 331 00:21:20,400 --> 00:21:24,000 figure out how. And if people don't know, clavis 332 00:21:24,000 --> 00:21:30,500 steps per Pea or ergot grows on wheat and rye fungus, we've 333 00:21:30,500 --> 00:21:33,900 talked a lot about it on the podcast before, but, you know, 334 00:21:33,900 --> 00:21:35,900 it's associated with the loosening Mysteries and these 335 00:21:35,900 --> 00:21:40,800 agrarian calls for obvious And you see a lot of wheat symbology 336 00:21:40,800 --> 00:21:46,500 even at a lusus to this day. So yeah, interesting stuff in 337 00:21:46,500 --> 00:21:52,500 terms of, you know, you have you spoken, you said you you know 338 00:21:52,500 --> 00:21:59,000 rock has he said anything since all this stuff's kind of come 339 00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:02,400 out with like you know immortality key and more 340 00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:06,300 knowledge about all these kind of topics not respond to call 341 00:22:06,300 --> 00:22:10,300 about that kind of few. You job online chats with Mark 342 00:22:10,300 --> 00:22:12,400 Hofmann, he's close friend of his, you know. 343 00:22:12,400 --> 00:22:14,100 He's kind of support supports him. 344 00:22:15,800 --> 00:22:19,600 But now I'm not I'm not really Duck into it. 345 00:22:19,600 --> 00:22:25,000 I did buy me a Mercedes book and it's not really an area of deep 346 00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:27,900 interest to me at the present time. 347 00:22:27,900 --> 00:22:30,000 It's something that I was much more interested in quite a 348 00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:34,900 number of years ago when when I used to see you quite a lot more 349 00:22:34,900 --> 00:22:37,200 of Carl. Yeah. 350 00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:43,500 But I think as you are suggesting it await the 351 00:22:43,500 --> 00:22:47,200 possibility that, you know, someone demonstrating that ergot 352 00:22:47,200 --> 00:22:52,600 in a rule, Form can be can be employed to to induce a kind of 353 00:22:52,600 --> 00:22:58,500 hallucinogenic experience and not being shown to be the case 354 00:22:58,500 --> 00:23:02,000 and I share I mean look the immortality Kia. 355 00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:04,800 I thought I had good knowledge in there but to be honest with 356 00:23:04,800 --> 00:23:08,200 you I thought that would it would have sent it over the top 357 00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:11,600 is if he had tried to do some of these rituals or something to 358 00:23:11,600 --> 00:23:15,800 tried, they actual entheogen, associated with, then wrote 359 00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:18,200 about it. I thought that would have Really 360 00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:21,900 put that thing to another level who took my naturally Brian 361 00:23:21,900 --> 00:23:25,300 rescue from immortality key. Yeah yeah. 362 00:23:25,700 --> 00:23:28,600 So I mean he you know you don't you've never done psychedelics 363 00:23:28,600 --> 00:23:30,900 and that's that's great that you're adding history and 364 00:23:30,900 --> 00:23:33,400 science and proof to a lot of these things. 365 00:23:33,400 --> 00:23:36,500 But I think that again, I think that I would have added so much 366 00:23:36,500 --> 00:23:40,700 more to that book if you would actually tried and wrote about 367 00:23:40,700 --> 00:23:45,400 it. But so back to your book though, 368 00:23:46,200 --> 00:23:54,000 one thing I want to mention. Into is in terms of bicycle day, 369 00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:58,500 there's so many like myths and you know, things that people get 370 00:23:58,500 --> 00:24:01,200 wrong or they've heard this or they've heard that. 371 00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:06,000 Can you just give us like a basic premise of what? 372 00:24:06,100 --> 00:24:09,000 What the read, what really happened on bicycle day and then 373 00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:11,800 maybe we can talk about some of the misconceptions regarding 374 00:24:11,800 --> 00:24:13,900 know what? We don't know what really 375 00:24:13,900 --> 00:24:14,900 happened? No, no. 376 00:24:14,900 --> 00:24:16,500 I you know what ba, you know what I'm saying? 377 00:24:19,400 --> 00:24:25,700 Kissing two places in the sense, one simply with the AF, the fact 378 00:24:25,700 --> 00:24:29,300 that it's a highly romanticized event. 379 00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:33,800 So it's already has his kind of Glamour surrounding. 380 00:24:33,800 --> 00:24:39,500 It is a kind of iconic mythical event, so to speak. 381 00:24:39,500 --> 00:24:46,800 And and Wii U star is that we really only have Hoffman's 382 00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:51,300 account. So we're relying on this this 383 00:24:51,700 --> 00:24:57,000 his book from 1978 and listing my problem child for his account 384 00:24:57,000 --> 00:25:00,600 and he's, he's already spoken about it on other occasions 385 00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:04,900 referred to his it in various kind of essays or interviews 386 00:25:04,900 --> 00:25:08,000 that he's given. But the Bare Bones of his story. 387 00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:12,500 As I understand, it haven't changed, which was that on the 388 00:25:12,500 --> 00:25:16,700 16th of April 1943, he experiences accidentally 389 00:25:16,700 --> 00:25:18,400 laboratory intoxication. Mmm. 390 00:25:20,500 --> 00:25:23,000 So in other words, he felt a bit weird though. 391 00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:26,500 Bit unwell here, you realize that he absorbed something or 392 00:25:26,500 --> 00:25:30,500 inhaled and somehow it absorbed the chemical, some sort that had 393 00:25:30,500 --> 00:25:37,300 made in mind. Well, and guess that it was 394 00:25:37,300 --> 00:25:40,100 lsd-25, which had been working with. 395 00:25:41,100 --> 00:25:44,000 There's course, it's a step before that, in the romantic 396 00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:47,700 story, so, to speak, which is it, he'd return to a less T25 397 00:25:48,500 --> 00:25:50,400 from, from quite a number of years. 398 00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:53,200 Previously, when you first synthesized is particular, 399 00:25:53,500 --> 00:25:57,300 substance 25th in the sequence of which there was none before 400 00:25:57,300 --> 00:26:02,500 and some after which have been tested previously on dogs and 401 00:26:02,500 --> 00:26:04,800 the conclusion had been treated with the substance of no 402 00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:07,600 specific value. He's had this intuition to 403 00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:10,200 return to it and therefore not why he was working with you in 404 00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:14,400 the first place. That was the 16th of April 1943 405 00:26:15,100 --> 00:26:19,800 and guess that was a particular substance, which presumably was 406 00:26:19,800 --> 00:26:23,000 working with on that day. And so if you return to it, in 407 00:26:23,008 --> 00:26:26,500 three days later decided to have herself experiment and took what 408 00:26:26,500 --> 00:26:32,900 he thought was an absolutely tiny dosage, unaware of the fact 409 00:26:32,900 --> 00:26:38,000 that the policy is effective in. Do Is of micrograms rather mg 410 00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:40,300 and compared to something like masculine. 411 00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:45,600 And so he took what he thought was a possibly the lowest dose 412 00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:47,800 which would actually be threshold to the kind of 413 00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:52,200 affected experienced on the 16th 250 micrograms. 414 00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:54,200 And of course you had a full-blown trip. 415 00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:57,700 He was unaware that this was the 250 was the kind of the hippie 416 00:26:57,700 --> 00:27:02,100 dose of the 1960s rather than the kind of sort of Rave type of 417 00:27:02,100 --> 00:27:06,000 dose of maybe something like 100 micrograms or whatever and had 418 00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:13,900 Blaine trip and was obliged to head home accompanied by a 419 00:27:13,900 --> 00:27:17,300 colleague and they had to cycle home because it was wartime. 420 00:27:17,600 --> 00:27:20,700 So petrol restrictions in Wartime. 421 00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:25,500 And so he was accompanied by this female colleague, and they 422 00:27:25,900 --> 00:27:28,700 cycle back to his home, which about half an hour away, that's 423 00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:31,500 not the story. From cycling home, under the 424 00:27:31,500 --> 00:27:36,500 influence of LSD is the kind of romantic and slightly Humorous, 425 00:27:36,500 --> 00:27:39,200 kind of picture for those who've, maybe take another 426 00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:41,500 student in appropriate circumstances and found 427 00:27:41,500 --> 00:27:47,000 themselves trapped on a bus or a train or on the way home from 428 00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:50,600 somewhere and find, there were high in a kind of in appropriate 429 00:27:50,700 --> 00:27:54,600 circumstances. So that's the story behind by 430 00:27:54,600 --> 00:27:57,200 called a bicycle in the discovery of the hallucinogenic 431 00:27:57,200 --> 00:28:01,300 properties of LSD. But it's been questioned in a 432 00:28:01,300 --> 00:28:06,500 number of ways and by number of different people, Dave, Cool. 433 00:28:06,500 --> 00:28:09,500 See who's kind of now taken on the mantle of shore Guinness, 434 00:28:09,500 --> 00:28:12,900 the world experts are professional chemists, 435 00:28:12,900 --> 00:28:16,700 professional chemists of the world S Peck tax expert on 436 00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:22,200 psychedelics and found the story dubious for various reasons and 437 00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:28,900 he did this kind of thought experiment at Burning Man at 438 00:28:28,900 --> 00:28:30,800 anyway, cuz I'm kinda psychedelics along with an 439 00:28:30,800 --> 00:28:35,900 audience and talk through the possibility or he dwelt on. 440 00:28:36,100 --> 00:28:40,200 The and likelihood the Hoffman did actually experienced an 441 00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:43,400 accidental laboratory intoxication, the 16th of April, 442 00:28:43,800 --> 00:28:47,500 the reason being that a chemist like a Hoffman would have been 443 00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:50,400 absolutely scrupulous. Especially if you're messing 444 00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:53,100 around with chemicals. That could be toxic extreme 445 00:28:53,100 --> 00:28:56,300 toxicity of that. You're that you're unaware of, 446 00:28:57,600 --> 00:29:02,700 that's number one and two. I mean, no one has successfully 447 00:29:02,700 --> 00:29:09,000 shown that that you can absorb Orb LSD going to trip through 448 00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:13,000 the skin so it's already extremely unlikely that he had 449 00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:18,500 accident actually accidentally become intoxicated rounded 450 00:29:18,900 --> 00:29:23,900 suggests that he'd actually had one of his want to be 451 00:29:23,900 --> 00:29:26,800 spontaneous. Mystical experiences it, he'd 452 00:29:27,700 --> 00:29:29,300 he'd experienced in his childhood. 453 00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:31,400 But why would have experienced that in the lab? 454 00:29:32,200 --> 00:29:36,200 And that particular occasion is another question, but one is 455 00:29:36,200 --> 00:29:38,100 shown in retrospect. She gives me a moment in 456 00:29:38,100 --> 00:29:42,900 retrospect. I've not question, but but that 457 00:29:42,900 --> 00:29:46,300 was the debut, nickel suggestion that he might have just been an 458 00:29:46,300 --> 00:29:51,200 accidental show you. This trendiest. 459 00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:54,100 Mystical experience also explain to intoxication will let me to 460 00:29:54,100 --> 00:30:01,600 say I noted state So don't happen because also, I think 461 00:30:01,600 --> 00:30:04,900 equation is the duration and various other little technical 462 00:30:04,900 --> 00:30:08,600 aspects and it's David Nicholls, but I'm sure he wishes, which he 463 00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:10,300 never done that. Now because we are coming. 464 00:30:10,300 --> 00:30:14,600 I've picked it up and it's fuel to the fire of the conspiracy 465 00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:17,900 theories that they're delicious tea was not discovered by 466 00:30:17,900 --> 00:30:19,200 accident. Yeah. 467 00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:21,100 So let's let's talk about that for a second. 468 00:30:21,100 --> 00:30:27,200 So yeah I think PD Newman even brought it up that the idea that 469 00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:28,900 again. There's this idea of people 470 00:30:28,900 --> 00:30:31,300 looking for peace pill or two and War. 471 00:30:31,300 --> 00:30:38,100 There's such a war and after World War 1 and so this idea 472 00:30:38,100 --> 00:30:42,600 that you're saying, oh, you would have been more careful and 473 00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:43,900 that wouldn't have really happened. 474 00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:47,400 Is it possible that somebody could have came to them and been 475 00:30:47,400 --> 00:30:50,700 like, let's do this or maybe he had discovered way before and 476 00:30:50,708 --> 00:30:54,000 then decided, like, it was time to go public with it or I mean, 477 00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:58,100 have you thought about that or, you know, any of those Hey, 478 00:30:58,100 --> 00:31:01,400 killing industry. But there's there's, there's 479 00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:02,700 like I said, there's no way to go. 480 00:31:02,700 --> 00:31:07,000 Well, there are the archives that standards and Mike J has 481 00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:10,000 gone to those archives. And having a look at the, the 482 00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:14,800 notes that have been made at the time, his report to stall, to 483 00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:17,500 Arthur stole the, the rec director of the pharmaceutical 484 00:31:17,500 --> 00:31:24,700 section, and he concluded himself that that that the 485 00:31:25,900 --> 00:31:27,600 Hoffman had already an unsurprising. 486 00:31:27,700 --> 00:31:31,000 Only by 1978 are already somewhat perhaps romanticized 487 00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:35,500 The Experience. Because his initial reports, his 488 00:31:35,500 --> 00:31:38,700 initial report to stalwart of a rather unpleasant experience. 489 00:31:41,300 --> 00:31:44,800 Whereas the report in arresting my problem, child is that it, 490 00:31:44,800 --> 00:31:49,300 you know, it was a disturbing experience initially, but it as 491 00:31:49,300 --> 00:31:52,900 the effects gradually wore off which a we, many of his might as 492 00:31:52,900 --> 00:31:55,400 well have experienced had their difficult time, with the 493 00:31:55,400 --> 00:31:56,800 receiver. When they've been it's like and 494 00:31:56,800 --> 00:32:01,900 often little bit you Able to much more enjoy it, that, that, 495 00:32:02,900 --> 00:32:08,700 that didn't really. It wasn't the nature have of his 496 00:32:08,700 --> 00:32:13,700 original of his original report. Nothing have to think the 1978 497 00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:21,000 was well, as counties 33 years, my right from 1945, 35 years 498 00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:23,500 from from the original time from that. 499 00:32:23,500 --> 00:32:25,400 Instant in the must have talked to you over many. 500 00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:29,200 Many times told it Idli at whether a dinner parties or 501 00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:32,200 conferences before he eventually wrote, it up in listing my 502 00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:35,600 problem child. But of course you were just 503 00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:44,300 referring to these stories that it was invented deliberately and 504 00:32:44,300 --> 00:32:46,200 of course it's links back to st. Peter snow. 505 00:32:47,700 --> 00:32:52,200 So the source of these stories that have fundamentally goes 506 00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:55,600 back to Willie's, Harmon this figure from the kind of West 507 00:32:55,600 --> 00:32:57,500 Coast. So I could do. 508 00:32:57,700 --> 00:33:01,300 Scene of the u-19, most 60s and 70s, he may go back a bit 509 00:33:01,300 --> 00:33:05,500 further than that, but he worked at Stanford. 510 00:33:05,500 --> 00:33:09,600 He was a even expert in electrical engineering. 511 00:33:09,600 --> 00:33:13,300 I think it was so good and it somehow got involved with the 512 00:33:13,300 --> 00:33:18,400 West Coast, psychedelic New Age, kind of scene and in a radio 513 00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:24,500 interview in Australia, he reported and it was published as 514 00:33:24,500 --> 00:33:29,200 a transcript of that. the Hopman story had been cooked up by 515 00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:35,300 Hoffman and that Two scientists or which Hoffman was one were 516 00:33:35,300 --> 00:33:42,300 followers of Rudolf Steiner. And in order to save so to speak 517 00:33:42,300 --> 00:33:47,700 a troubled World, it ain't what they were intent on creating a, 518 00:33:47,900 --> 00:33:49,400 what you discovered, a piece pill. 519 00:33:50,300 --> 00:33:52,500 Something along the lines of if only the, you know, the 520 00:33:52,500 --> 00:33:56,400 presidents of the, the countries of the world, we take LSD, then 521 00:33:56,400 --> 00:33:59,600 that would be the end of war, and we have a peaceful world. 522 00:34:00,200 --> 00:34:04,700 So on the back of that kind of idea, I suggest that claim. 523 00:34:04,700 --> 00:34:10,000 As that followers of Rudolf, Steiner had deliberately cooked 524 00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:13,400 up a list e as a piece pill in the standards. 525 00:34:13,699 --> 00:34:18,500 Laboratories Yeah, it's an interesting one. 526 00:34:18,500 --> 00:34:22,100 I mean we've talked about Steve Steiner, a lot on the show but 527 00:34:22,100 --> 00:34:26,199 just more, you know, anthroposophy and all of this. 528 00:34:26,199 --> 00:34:29,600 Yeah. You know, scientific /. 529 00:34:29,600 --> 00:34:32,300 Philosophical /, spiritual movement stuff? 530 00:34:33,100 --> 00:34:35,500 Well, I mean, I've never been attracted by starring or his 531 00:34:35,500 --> 00:34:38,800 work. I used to pop into the stone of 532 00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:39,900 Bookshop. There's one in London. 533 00:34:39,900 --> 00:34:42,400 It's think it closed. I'm back to it. 534 00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:44,800 Relatively recent, I think it reopened nothing. 535 00:34:44,800 --> 00:34:48,100 Nothing You know, you could grab books off the shelf and browse 536 00:34:48,500 --> 00:34:50,699 nothing about storing it over attracted me to see, it's 537 00:34:50,699 --> 00:34:53,199 attached to me, it seemed to be rather cadaver, rather 538 00:34:53,199 --> 00:34:56,400 conservative nature, which made. It seems strange to me, the 539 00:34:56,400 --> 00:34:59,600 suggestion that his followers to be cooking up a piece pill. 540 00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:04,700 Well, that is what really stallman the yeah, what is 541 00:35:04,700 --> 00:35:09,000 Harmon said. And I suspect that in another 542 00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:15,400 report published by Martin Ali, he attributes the story. 543 00:35:15,600 --> 00:35:19,000 To Al Hubbard. She's much more likely that 544 00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:21,200 Hubbard the kind of carried. He seemed to be. 545 00:35:21,400 --> 00:35:26,000 Might have been the spinner at all stories or at least of maybe 546 00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:31,400 garbled accounts of events. Yeah. 547 00:35:31,900 --> 00:35:35,300 So it's possible that Hubbard was the original source and harm 548 00:35:35,300 --> 00:35:37,900 and came by through through Hubbard and used only part of 549 00:35:37,900 --> 00:35:42,600 that that seemed in Hubbard. It was remarkable character. 550 00:35:43,100 --> 00:35:45,400 You can really quite interested in how about and trying to trace 551 00:35:45,500 --> 00:35:50,200 us some of his life prior to my spine, no one hasn't done more. 552 00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:53,000 There has been a biography published very recently, I know 553 00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:55,900 if you're aware of that about Hubbard and going back to his 554 00:35:56,000 --> 00:35:58,800 days in Vancouver, I don't know anybody Vancouver. 555 00:35:58,800 --> 00:36:03,000 He was originally was working for the Bootleggers in Vancouver 556 00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:08,800 and he was as kind of a bit of a technical whiz, and he was 557 00:36:08,800 --> 00:36:14,500 employed building ratio res for the Bootleggers between 558 00:36:14,700 --> 00:36:19,100 Vancouver and America smuggling bootleg liquor in June 559 00:36:19,100 --> 00:36:23,700 prohibition, period and eventually become a police 560 00:36:23,700 --> 00:36:25,300 Informer. He switched sides. 561 00:36:25,500 --> 00:36:28,200 Probably been arrested in. That was the, the, the 562 00:36:28,200 --> 00:36:31,900 arrangement he made there lots of reports. 563 00:36:31,900 --> 00:36:34,200 In fact, the, the the biography they've been published of 564 00:36:34,200 --> 00:36:39,300 Hubbard go draws on a lot of those original police or 565 00:36:39,300 --> 00:36:42,700 newspaper reports of the trials, and the various times at Hubbard 566 00:36:42,700 --> 00:36:45,200 was arrested in connection with bootlegging. 567 00:36:45,600 --> 00:36:48,600 But he turned sides by all accounts and became a be working 568 00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:54,000 for the DEA or whatever. And so it's quite likely that 569 00:36:54,000 --> 00:36:59,000 Hubbard and must always have have a going into the, the 570 00:36:59,000 --> 00:37:04,100 secret Services, the OSS, or whichever of the American or the 571 00:37:04,100 --> 00:37:06,900 English secret Services during the war Jin, seems quite 572 00:37:06,900 --> 00:37:11,500 possible because they certainly did recruit out of out of those 573 00:37:12,500 --> 00:37:16,100 police departments. What about like the Idea that 574 00:37:16,100 --> 00:37:20,200 Wasson because I know like we've had arguments, I've had people 575 00:37:20,200 --> 00:37:23,700 on the insist Wasson wasn't connected at all to this year. 576 00:37:23,700 --> 00:37:28,700 I had other people say he's completely he's in on it you 577 00:37:28,700 --> 00:37:32,900 know which I would find interesting since he brought you 578 00:37:32,900 --> 00:37:37,800 know the whole mushroom Shamanism and María Sabina stuff 579 00:37:38,000 --> 00:37:41,900 come to the public as well as writing tons of books on all 580 00:37:41,900 --> 00:37:45,400 these you know, Soma and all these different topics. 581 00:37:45,500 --> 00:37:48,300 X. So, do you have any thoughts on? 582 00:37:48,300 --> 00:37:50,100 I know that's not really part of this, but you have any thoughts 583 00:37:50,100 --> 00:37:54,900 on Lawson and that whole thing about whatever comes up both in 584 00:37:54,900 --> 00:37:58,400 yon Irving territory, aren't we? If you start talking about that? 585 00:37:58,400 --> 00:38:02,400 And so, I mean only did a freedom of information request 586 00:38:02,400 --> 00:38:07,000 and got high, it was and powers of documentation amongst them, 587 00:38:07,000 --> 00:38:11,100 one that he refers to sort of kind of central to his claim 588 00:38:11,100 --> 00:38:14,500 that wasn't was that, you know, actively working for the CIA and 589 00:38:14,500 --> 00:38:16,700 then that it really depends. Little bit on your reading of 590 00:38:16,700 --> 00:38:19,800 that particular document which you know, if you'd be interested 591 00:38:19,800 --> 00:38:22,800 that they can probably find it, find it online. 592 00:38:23,800 --> 00:38:26,400 So nervous. Interesting character who really 593 00:38:26,400 --> 00:38:28,700 amazing to come way off the rails. 594 00:38:29,300 --> 00:38:32,600 Rodents are emailing me again so he was kind of a friend. 595 00:38:32,600 --> 00:38:35,100 He interviewed me. You know I did a podcast app 596 00:38:35,100 --> 00:38:38,200 interview with the honor of him when he was interviewing doing 597 00:38:38,200 --> 00:38:41,800 good interviews with quite a lot of relatively obscure 598 00:38:42,900 --> 00:38:45,400 psychedelics, it will entertain your botanists. 599 00:38:45,500 --> 00:38:48,600 Alien that kind of a thing. Some some from Europe, the 600 00:38:48,600 --> 00:38:52,600 people might not, otherwise be particularly aware of Tony's, 601 00:38:52,600 --> 00:38:54,200 doing some really quite good work. 602 00:38:54,400 --> 00:38:58,300 Any republish sacred Mushroom in the cross to that dry heat was 603 00:38:58,300 --> 00:39:01,400 in on that and he was quite friendly with rock at that time 604 00:39:01,900 --> 00:39:07,100 and so and then yeah, he became obsessed with. 605 00:39:08,500 --> 00:39:11,400 Well, I got a bit lost of exactly what his theories were 606 00:39:11,600 --> 00:39:12,700 about. The Watson was working for the 607 00:39:12,707 --> 00:39:19,000 CIA and the And up on this this idea that in some way or other 608 00:39:19,800 --> 00:39:26,100 the Psychedelic 60s were a kind of mind-control program operated 609 00:39:26,100 --> 00:39:30,100 by the by the CIA. Never quite clear on this was it 610 00:39:30,100 --> 00:39:37,600 22. To damage the kind of counter 611 00:39:37,600 --> 00:39:40,700 cut the political counterculture to kind of get them all kind of 612 00:39:40,700 --> 00:39:44,400 Airy fairy and high on acid. So they lost interest in their 613 00:39:44,400 --> 00:39:47,400 political activism or I get a bit lost. 614 00:39:47,600 --> 00:39:48,700 I don't know if it was mine control. 615 00:39:48,700 --> 00:39:51,200 Have you ever read the book, chaos, by Tom O'Neill? 616 00:39:52,500 --> 00:39:55,300 No, no, no. I think you should definitely 617 00:39:55,300 --> 00:39:57,500 check out. Because there is actual proof 618 00:39:57,500 --> 00:40:00,900 that the people that were working at the Haight-Ashbury 619 00:40:00,900 --> 00:40:05,000 free clinic that we're giving medical attention to a lot of 620 00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:06,700 these hippies and stuff like that. 621 00:40:06,800 --> 00:40:11,000 The one guy was actually a pharmacologist that was studying 622 00:40:11,900 --> 00:40:16,400 rats and LSD previously, and they were dosing the rats with 623 00:40:17,300 --> 00:40:22,000 they would give them. And feta means to boost our 624 00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:23,500 numbers. Oh, they would they would first 625 00:40:23,500 --> 00:40:26,100 give them LSD and that would give them like kind of like a 626 00:40:26,100 --> 00:40:28,900 little bit of you know, influence over them and then 627 00:40:28,900 --> 00:40:30,000 they would give them in feta mean. 628 00:40:30,000 --> 00:40:33,500 So what they saw was there's this is like a famous experiment 629 00:40:33,500 --> 00:40:37,700 that ended up being kind of what happened on the streets of 630 00:40:37,707 --> 00:40:41,100 Haight-Ashbury where you'd see a lot of hippies come in, do LSD. 631 00:40:41,100 --> 00:40:46,500 Peace, love, flower children and then all of a sudden you start 632 00:40:46,500 --> 00:40:50,300 to see this wave of crime and and hippies taking amphetamines 633 00:40:50,300 --> 00:40:53,300 and speed and speed. And all this kind of stuff. 634 00:40:53,300 --> 00:40:56,300 So it actually mimics that experiment that they were doing 635 00:40:56,300 --> 00:40:59,600 on rats in a lab previous to the 60s even occurring. 636 00:41:00,200 --> 00:41:03,000 So this is the mansion book really old man. 637 00:41:03,000 --> 00:41:06,600 Yeah, there's a Manson book but there's a lot of good LSD stuff 638 00:41:06,600 --> 00:41:09,900 in. Yeah, so I picked up a copy of 639 00:41:09,900 --> 00:41:13,800 that I picked up Andy, Roberts old, copy of that. 640 00:41:13,800 --> 00:41:14,800 He would surely some Review of Books. 641 00:41:14,800 --> 00:41:19,100 Andy Roberts, the author of Albion dreaming, the history of 642 00:41:19,100 --> 00:41:22,700 LSD, in Britain, which is a great book, anyone, One who is 643 00:41:22,700 --> 00:41:25,800 interested in the differences between, you know, the kind of 644 00:41:25,800 --> 00:41:29,300 LSD culture in the UK and America Center should have take 645 00:41:29,300 --> 00:41:31,400 a look at Andy Roberts. It up your dream. 646 00:41:31,400 --> 00:41:36,900 If I put in a advice really should check that out. 647 00:41:37,000 --> 00:41:39,800 So yeah, so I will take a look at it. 648 00:41:39,800 --> 00:41:42,000 I can probably see it over how good a pile of books have picked 649 00:41:42,000 --> 00:41:43,800 up second hand? Yeah, I mean, it interests me 650 00:41:43,800 --> 00:41:46,900 glad I said, I'm in the merry pranksters and Ken Kesey. 651 00:41:46,900 --> 00:41:49,700 And all, you know, that I actually am a huge Grateful Dead 652 00:41:49,700 --> 00:41:51,200 fan. I'm a musician myself. 653 00:41:51,200 --> 00:41:55,100 So like I'm very Of the Grateful Dead's history but to your to 654 00:41:55,100 --> 00:41:56,700 the what you were mentioning though, there's a lot of people 655 00:41:56,700 --> 00:41:58,900 that take it further. There's some people that think 656 00:41:58,900 --> 00:42:01,900 the Grateful Dead were a psyop or that owes lie because he's 657 00:42:01,900 --> 00:42:04,200 uncle was like a senator something. 658 00:42:04,400 --> 00:42:06,300 Somehow is connected to all the things. 659 00:42:06,300 --> 00:42:09,200 I think you can just connect all these pieces together and it 660 00:42:09,200 --> 00:42:11,800 doesn't really mean anything at some point, but I do think that 661 00:42:11,800 --> 00:42:14,300 there's certain elements, like I said, that Haight-Ashbury free 662 00:42:14,300 --> 00:42:16,300 clinic. We know about MKUltra, we know 663 00:42:16,300 --> 00:42:18,400 it was real. We know that they were doing 664 00:42:18,400 --> 00:42:20,700 that. Now, how much influence does 665 00:42:20,700 --> 00:42:23,600 that have over that entire ER, movement, I don't know. 666 00:42:23,600 --> 00:42:25,000 I mean, that's where you lose me. 667 00:42:25,000 --> 00:42:31,800 A little bit on connecting country. 668 00:42:31,800 --> 00:42:38,200 He's 42, Facebook, friend of mine for many, many years, he's 669 00:42:38,200 --> 00:42:41,500 changed a lot of stuff and, you know, fuck that, you know, 670 00:42:41,700 --> 00:42:45,500 Robert draws on some of my kind of material to support his own, 671 00:42:45,500 --> 00:42:50,800 kind of theories, but it's a very, it's such a complicated 672 00:42:50,800 --> 00:42:55,200 picture as you really in. Decay Ting that to to, to follow 673 00:42:55,200 --> 00:43:00,800 the trails and the connections. Yes, easy to disappear down a 674 00:43:00,800 --> 00:43:03,700 rabbit hole of One's Own invention. 675 00:43:03,900 --> 00:43:08,100 Hmm. What was your favorite us say in 676 00:43:08,100 --> 00:43:10,200 this book? Well, that's a good question 677 00:43:10,200 --> 00:43:15,700 idea. I was sort of pondering that Let 678 00:43:15,700 --> 00:43:17,500 me just read them. What we have one, we have the 679 00:43:17,500 --> 00:43:20,200 legacy of transgression psychedelics in the end of 680 00:43:20,200 --> 00:43:23,900 History to Jazz Age peyote ISM at. 681 00:43:23,900 --> 00:43:27,400 Harvard a psychedelic circle with a Mormon connection. 682 00:43:27,400 --> 00:43:31,500 That one was very interesting, drugs, saff ISM and Altered 683 00:43:31,500 --> 00:43:35,500 States a hope in morales. Lud in the Mist is that's what 684 00:43:35,508 --> 00:43:38,600 we mentioned. That fantasy novel, you were 685 00:43:38,600 --> 00:43:41,900 mentioning for the Altered States of David. 686 00:43:41,900 --> 00:43:45,300 Lindsay is you mentioned before three psychedelic, novels of The 687 00:43:45,300 --> 00:43:50,000 1920s, number five, Bicycle Day in ritual, myth and history, we 688 00:43:50,008 --> 00:43:51,500 just mentioned that a little bit. 689 00:43:51,600 --> 00:43:55,600 And then number six, we have revisiting Unger's gotten home 690 00:43:55,600 --> 00:43:59,600 which as you mentioned, you're a lot of your stuff comes from 691 00:43:59,600 --> 00:44:02,800 Ernst younger and that whole influence its connection to 692 00:44:03,000 --> 00:44:07,500 Hoffman. I'll see, my favorite of those 693 00:44:07,500 --> 00:44:13,500 is probably the golden home. One because I guess younger is 694 00:44:13,500 --> 00:44:18,700 such a fascinating figure and, and the, the connection between 695 00:44:18,700 --> 00:44:24,500 Hoffman and younger is, is so interesting. 696 00:44:24,500 --> 00:44:27,700 The kind of the ambiguity, really their relationships, 697 00:44:27,700 --> 00:44:30,700 young girl who's a poster boy for neo-fascism, you can't get 698 00:44:30,700 --> 00:44:35,100 away from the fact that he is. So until you'll find, you know, 699 00:44:35,100 --> 00:44:39,200 various neo-fascist websites and European in particular. 700 00:44:41,100 --> 00:44:48,500 And he's an icon of those neo-fascists and Hoffman the 701 00:44:48,500 --> 00:44:51,500 that I can stay humble, maybe not be quite right. 702 00:44:51,500 --> 00:44:55,900 But the quiet chemist working away at, send us who purely by 703 00:44:55,900 --> 00:45:00,000 chance, discovered LSD, and really of his, or not of his 704 00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:05,600 own, making has become a kind of icon of LSD culture, that, that 705 00:45:05,600 --> 00:45:09,700 friendship and, and the fact that golden homeless, somebody 706 00:45:09,700 --> 00:45:14,600 shortly, The novella really is based around a certainly 707 00:45:14,600 --> 00:45:19,100 certainly refers to a lot of interesting things there, but it 708 00:45:19,100 --> 00:45:25,400 really is partly based around trips that the Hoffman took with 709 00:45:25,400 --> 00:45:30,000 Ernst younger and often makes that clear himself in the 710 00:45:30,000 --> 00:45:33,600 chapter muted wrote a whole chapter to what he refers to as 711 00:45:33,600 --> 00:45:38,300 the radiance of Ernst younger. And he refers to the fact that 712 00:45:38,300 --> 00:45:43,800 yes, the that this novel visit to go in her home was based 713 00:45:43,800 --> 00:45:48,300 around, or at least Drew from some of their Mutual trips 714 00:45:48,300 --> 00:45:51,300 together. And but he's also very much 715 00:45:51,300 --> 00:45:55,300 based in youngers Wartime experience. 716 00:45:55,600 --> 00:46:01,500 The, the trauma of German defeat or double German defeat first, 717 00:46:01,500 --> 00:46:06,300 in the first world war after which, you know, younger was Is 718 00:46:06,300 --> 00:46:11,100 an opponent and, and hatred for for the Weimar Republic. 719 00:46:11,900 --> 00:46:17,300 And and then, of course, there s defeat in the second world war, 720 00:46:17,300 --> 00:46:20,600 which he referred to, as simply calls the catastrophe. 721 00:46:21,400 --> 00:46:27,300 And so, at that level is, is so interesting. 722 00:46:27,300 --> 00:46:31,500 I suppose, it's a bit of, is not easy to get an insight into 723 00:46:31,500 --> 00:46:35,100 youngers mind. I mean, there's see you're busy. 724 00:46:35,100 --> 00:46:38,800 Of course, recently, With his, his book referred to in English 725 00:46:38,800 --> 00:46:42,500 has approaches, has been published in English, which 726 00:46:42,500 --> 00:46:45,300 describes his experiments with drugs is drug experience. 727 00:46:45,300 --> 00:46:47,900 And, and what you make, he makes it was drug experiences. 728 00:46:48,700 --> 00:46:51,900 So the publish Mighty loss Publishing House. 729 00:46:52,200 --> 00:46:57,000 They've republished a number of youngers books, non-fiction 730 00:46:57,000 --> 00:46:59,200 books. And there's these fiction books, 731 00:46:59,200 --> 00:47:02,100 I think Tiffany, mostly his non-fiction books such as the 732 00:47:02,100 --> 00:47:05,100 forest passage, which is a very interesting read as well. 733 00:47:06,200 --> 00:47:09,700 Drawn really in talking about visit to Golden home. 734 00:47:10,300 --> 00:47:14,500 So but for those who are unaware of what was it for you to go and 735 00:47:14,500 --> 00:47:18,900 home is about it, is it description of three people 736 00:47:19,300 --> 00:47:23,500 undergoing. What would you call it? 737 00:47:23,600 --> 00:47:27,200 Intuition or Guidance the, by this kind of magus figure or 738 00:47:27,200 --> 00:47:30,400 nigger and want honest, I think he's referred to in that novel, 739 00:47:30,400 --> 00:47:32,400 written agreement. Alice young has this kind of 740 00:47:32,400 --> 00:47:35,900 magus figure who popped up in a number of his books as you were 741 00:47:36,100 --> 00:47:39,000 First, you buy some different names but negro Montana's mean 742 00:47:39,000 --> 00:47:43,000 black mounting them and I say it's you know, how much we've 743 00:47:43,200 --> 00:47:48,600 turned grey Eminence. But anyhow, two men and a woman. 744 00:47:49,800 --> 00:47:53,800 Visit this isolated island off of me. 745 00:47:53,800 --> 00:47:56,100 Get this right? Sweden or Norway. 746 00:47:56,100 --> 00:48:03,300 Norway, I think and and undergo this period of tuition. 747 00:48:03,300 --> 00:48:06,000 What do you call it initiation? I suppose a process. 748 00:48:06,100 --> 00:48:11,100 The show is 90 this Magus figure and it ends with this what you 749 00:48:11,100 --> 00:48:14,600 might call a kind of trip sequence without any mention of 750 00:48:14,600 --> 00:48:20,900 LSD or a drug but certainly drawing on Hoffman and youngers 751 00:48:21,100 --> 00:48:26,700 trips together in which the they undergo a personal 752 00:48:27,400 --> 00:48:35,800 transformation, and difficult trips, I suppose you could call 753 00:48:35,800 --> 00:48:37,700 them. M and out of which the figure 754 00:48:37,700 --> 00:48:43,000 which certainly one of which kind of represents younger is 755 00:48:43,000 --> 00:48:48,300 healing of the trauma of all, I, guess of what he refers to as a 756 00:48:48,300 --> 00:48:51,600 catastrophe, which is that, you know, the the loss of the tree 757 00:48:51,600 --> 00:48:56,500 to the Germans in the war. So it's an interesting window 758 00:48:56,500 --> 00:49:02,900 into into that world where the atmosphere that existed in what 759 00:49:02,900 --> 00:49:05,400 I refer to in in the bicycle day. 760 00:49:05,400 --> 00:49:13,100 I say the group of individuals, who who, who gathered around 761 00:49:13,100 --> 00:49:19,400 Hoffman friends and Associates of his who experimented with LSD 762 00:49:20,000 --> 00:49:25,900 in the sort of 1950s and again in the 70s difficult for me to 763 00:49:25,900 --> 00:49:29,300 remember, I know the exact dates, but there was this kind 764 00:49:29,300 --> 00:49:33,000 of what called buyer who was a professor of religious studies, 765 00:49:33,000 --> 00:49:37,400 he's now really retired but he gave a lecture Her in Amsterdam, 766 00:49:37,700 --> 00:49:43,100 Amsterdam University, at one of these conferences of the esse 767 00:49:43,500 --> 00:49:47,400 the European Society for the study of Eastern esse wi to 768 00:49:47,400 --> 00:49:49,300 travel. To remember it all European 769 00:49:49,300 --> 00:49:52,600 study for Society for the study of Western it as a terrorism 770 00:49:53,000 --> 00:49:58,200 Child by spoke there and kindly refer to my research on Hoffman 771 00:49:58,200 --> 00:50:01,600 in younger. Forced me to stand up and and 772 00:50:01,800 --> 00:50:06,100 and make my presence known, and he gave a lecture there on. 773 00:50:06,300 --> 00:50:09,500 And what you referred to as Hofmann do cultic Circle. 774 00:50:10,300 --> 00:50:14,300 So that's an Insight that most people wouldn't have unless said 775 00:50:14,300 --> 00:50:16,200 that lecture is, could be found online. 776 00:50:16,200 --> 00:50:22,500 Carl Kar Kar L buyer. Baie are called buyer on 777 00:50:22,500 --> 00:50:27,500 hofmann's occultic, Circle interest and do you think that? 778 00:50:28,000 --> 00:50:29,700 Oh, sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off. 779 00:50:30,400 --> 00:50:32,700 The fact that there was this group of individuals who were 780 00:50:32,700 --> 00:50:37,200 writers Publishers and the pomp of one of the Usher's of younger 781 00:50:37,200 --> 00:50:41,200 and Hoffman. And and other of the circle who 782 00:50:41,200 --> 00:50:45,700 indulged in these, what we sometimes referred to as seances 783 00:50:46,600 --> 00:50:52,400 or a symposia or sometimes initiations, so they then they 784 00:50:52,400 --> 00:50:56,300 would dress in Oriental, Garb and suchlike which got us back a 785 00:50:56,300 --> 00:51:00,000 bit to the to the, to the Harvard, her reference to the 786 00:51:01,100 --> 00:51:05,600 figures then who were sort of dressing in Oriental, robes and 787 00:51:05,600 --> 00:51:07,300 Lighting. Since and all that kind of 788 00:51:07,300 --> 00:51:09,900 thing. And that so reminiscent of the 789 00:51:09,900 --> 00:51:13,200 hippie, period And suchlike. So these got what guys were not 790 00:51:13,200 --> 00:51:16,300 hippies they were it would make their went all all of the 791 00:51:16,308 --> 00:51:19,400 political, right? That younger Hoffman's policy 792 00:51:19,400 --> 00:51:22,100 because we don't really know why I suspect that he has some kind 793 00:51:22,100 --> 00:51:24,600 of sympathy with youngest political views, but of course, 794 00:51:24,600 --> 00:51:26,700 friend can have completely opposing political view. 795 00:51:26,700 --> 00:51:29,300 So you can't necessarily deduce that. 796 00:51:29,800 --> 00:51:34,000 But anyway, can't buy his lecture and I kind of expand on 797 00:51:34,000 --> 00:51:37,300 that a little bit or paraphrase. quite a lot of it can't buy was 798 00:51:37,300 --> 00:51:39,700 kind enough to agree that I could essentially do a 799 00:51:39,707 --> 00:51:42,300 translation translation or transliteration of some of his 800 00:51:44,000 --> 00:51:47,000 I've sung by that lectures you gave it understand University 801 00:51:47,000 --> 00:51:52,700 about Hoffman's or cultic Circle but But it's so interesting to 802 00:51:52,700 --> 00:51:55,500 me, really more interesting waiting that goes up to use, 803 00:51:55,500 --> 00:52:00,800 because I had some awareness of that was my discovery of the 804 00:52:00,800 --> 00:52:04,000 closeness of Arthur stole the director of sound does under 805 00:52:04,000 --> 00:52:05,800 who, Hoffman, what's your? We recruited Hoffman in the 806 00:52:05,800 --> 00:52:10,000 first place of, Arthur stores, close, friendship determine 807 00:52:10,000 --> 00:52:13,800 hesa. And the German author who was 808 00:52:14,100 --> 00:52:16,600 very popular with the, for the hippie generation Siddhartha 809 00:52:17,400 --> 00:52:19,600 early about Pam Valentine's fantasy series. 810 00:52:20,700 --> 00:52:25,600 So These books which have been really kind of a literally back 811 00:52:25,600 --> 00:52:30,200 water for people studying German literature were republished in 812 00:52:30,200 --> 00:52:34,300 paperback versions one. At least we had a header forward 813 00:52:34,300 --> 00:52:40,100 by Timothy Timothy. Leary, so stolz after stole, 814 00:52:40,500 --> 00:52:45,000 who's always this background. Figure not referred to many 815 00:52:45,000 --> 00:52:50,300 times, but he recruited Hoffman and brought him in and off, my 816 00:52:50,300 --> 00:52:51,500 doesn't really have a good word to say. 817 00:52:51,600 --> 00:52:55,200 But after stall, but that's another story, which I might 818 00:52:55,200 --> 00:52:57,700 write about. I'm always on the edge of 819 00:52:57,700 --> 00:53:03,600 upsetting people very, very well because my Hoffman younger, it's 820 00:53:03,600 --> 00:53:06,700 a strange bed drugs. Make for strange bedfellows, 821 00:53:06,700 --> 00:53:12,200 when that was first published one of the, the the Psychedelic 822 00:53:12,200 --> 00:53:15,600 Elders of the pundits of psychedelic culture, reviewed it 823 00:53:15,600 --> 00:53:19,300 saying a footnote to history and not a very interesting one, he's 824 00:53:19,300 --> 00:53:23,300 put on on Amazon. So I don't understand though, 825 00:53:23,300 --> 00:53:30,300 like it's done psychedelics and done them enough know that it's, 826 00:53:30,600 --> 00:53:33,300 they don't make you a better person if you already have that 827 00:53:33,300 --> 00:53:37,200 in you to make yourself better or be mindful or whatever, maybe 828 00:53:37,200 --> 00:53:41,600 you get a paradigm shift, maybe you're somebody that's super 829 00:53:41,600 --> 00:53:45,300 radical in some way and maybe that just like, okay, gives you 830 00:53:45,300 --> 00:53:47,800 different perspective. I guess I could see that, but 831 00:53:47,800 --> 00:53:49,600 for the most part, you're not going to do it. 832 00:53:49,600 --> 00:53:52,100 I mean, here's an example. If you go on Facebook, Facebook 833 00:53:52,100 --> 00:53:54,400 and you go on any of the Psychedelic forums. 834 00:53:54,700 --> 00:53:57,300 There's people talking shit to each other, all up and down the 835 00:53:57,300 --> 00:54:00,100 comments. It doesn't matter about, you 836 00:54:00,100 --> 00:54:02,100 know, what I'm saying. So it's not like doing the 837 00:54:02,100 --> 00:54:03,800 Psychedelic makes you a better person. 838 00:54:04,000 --> 00:54:08,100 It actually it's just a tool, it's just a tool if you know how 839 00:54:08,100 --> 00:54:10,500 to use the tool. I think it's helpful but if 840 00:54:10,500 --> 00:54:14,500 you're a radical person right wing, left wing, whatever it is, 841 00:54:15,000 --> 00:54:20,100 and you're just not, you know, part of society in that realm, 842 00:54:20,600 --> 00:54:23,600 then I don't That's gonna do it for you. 843 00:54:23,700 --> 00:54:28,900 You know, problematical issue doesn't here, which is that. 844 00:54:29,500 --> 00:54:35,200 So, so when you go back to the kind of the Psychedelic 60s or 845 00:54:35,200 --> 00:54:39,100 70s, there was this idea. Oh, if only we could get the 846 00:54:39,100 --> 00:54:43,200 president to do LSD, or the leap world leaders to honesty and the 847 00:54:43,200 --> 00:54:45,800 world would be a better place. And of course, that story. 848 00:54:45,800 --> 00:54:50,000 Featured word is Harmons account the supposed Steiner, right? 849 00:54:50,600 --> 00:54:55,700 It's dying, right satsang. God's plan and and done. 850 00:54:58,400 --> 00:55:03,500 And within that sort of hippie culture, the was this idea, you 851 00:55:03,500 --> 00:55:06,100 know, that. Like I think there's a story in 852 00:55:08,900 --> 00:55:12,000 to called the the Brotherhood of eternal love that the, you know, 853 00:55:12,000 --> 00:55:17,400 the these Hells Angels all did acid and they drove their bikes 854 00:55:17,400 --> 00:55:20,800 down to the ocean and they threw their weapons in the world. 855 00:55:22,000 --> 00:55:23,900 The Armory into the ocean, you know. 856 00:55:23,900 --> 00:55:28,500 So this is, it is persistent notion that the taking acid, or 857 00:55:28,500 --> 00:55:30,800 taking any. Do you think, do you think it's 858 00:55:30,800 --> 00:55:34,400 less the drug, or the compound and more like it in reality? 859 00:55:34,400 --> 00:55:36,500 Do you think it's what people want? 860 00:55:36,500 --> 00:55:39,500 That person to experience is more of a paradigm shift or a 861 00:55:39,500 --> 00:55:43,100 paradigm shame. It is opposed to like, just 862 00:55:43,100 --> 00:55:45,400 taking this compound or whatever, you know, like you 863 00:55:45,400 --> 00:55:46,900 need that can happen in different ways. 864 00:55:46,900 --> 00:55:50,300 It doesn't have to be psychedelics, it gonna be maybe 865 00:55:50,300 --> 00:55:54,900 somebody, you know, No has a loss or somebody experiences 866 00:55:54,900 --> 00:55:56,600 something that really shakes them up. 867 00:55:56,600 --> 00:55:59,400 You know, for me I've had that myself, you know, with my mom 868 00:55:59,400 --> 00:56:01,600 going through cancer. Now she's fine everything which 869 00:56:01,600 --> 00:56:05,000 is great, but it's not, it's more of the experience of going 870 00:56:05,000 --> 00:56:07,200 through that, I guess is what it is. 871 00:56:07,800 --> 00:56:10,300 You know, I mean absolute agreement with you. 872 00:56:10,300 --> 00:56:15,300 And I remember saying to my right name now, but to a sort of 873 00:56:15,300 --> 00:56:21,200 psychedelic pundit figure, you know, well is he experienced a 874 00:56:21,700 --> 00:56:26,000 Misaki like such as LSD necessarily more life-changing 875 00:56:26,000 --> 00:56:29,500 than for example having a car accident where you almost lose 876 00:56:29,500 --> 00:56:32,600 your life you know and then you reconfigure your life because 877 00:56:32,600 --> 00:56:36,600 that and I was an agent one time of working up an essay. 878 00:56:37,600 --> 00:56:41,400 Something along the you know, the lines of LSD has been the 879 00:56:41,400 --> 00:56:45,500 great disrupter. It has his disruptive effect and 880 00:56:46,200 --> 00:56:52,900 what isn't powerful Doses. And then what that That is its 881 00:56:52,900 --> 00:56:55,700 nature, you know that it disrupts, your normal 882 00:56:55,700 --> 00:56:59,200 perceptions, you disrupt, your perception of yourself and so 883 00:56:59,200 --> 00:57:01,700 on, and so on. But what I did want to kind of 884 00:57:02,300 --> 00:57:05,400 Follow that thread a bit into the present time where, you 885 00:57:05,400 --> 00:57:11,300 know, you have arguments online that I'm about the claims 886 00:57:11,300 --> 00:57:14,900 particularly those coming out of Imperial College that particular 887 00:57:15,400 --> 00:57:17,400 group. I suppose it probably applies to 888 00:57:17,500 --> 00:57:25,800 two others as well but the Where they do experiments in, which 889 00:57:25,800 --> 00:57:33,400 they claiming that it demonstrates, that that it makes 890 00:57:33,400 --> 00:57:36,100 people more open to Nature that it improves people. 891 00:57:36,100 --> 00:57:40,100 In that same kind of sense. It makes makes people better 892 00:57:40,100 --> 00:57:44,700 people in in some sense, but there's a good condition did 893 00:57:44,800 --> 00:57:48,800 decent contingent who are questioning all of that. 894 00:57:48,800 --> 00:57:51,800 And what I wanted the problems of course going back to 22. 895 00:57:52,100 --> 00:57:55,100 When these individuals were getting involved with eventually 896 00:57:55,100 --> 00:58:03,100 getting licenses to, to do experiment using psychedelics 897 00:58:03,900 --> 00:58:06,100 and to see what beneficial effects they might have. 898 00:58:06,100 --> 00:58:09,000 Of course, they're looking for beneficial effects, that that is 899 00:58:09,000 --> 00:58:10,800 part of that. The heart of this, I suppose you 900 00:58:10,800 --> 00:58:15,600 might say that now, how much I, how much of those results 901 00:58:15,900 --> 00:58:20,500 supposedly positive results in terms of things like addiction 902 00:58:20,500 --> 00:58:22,600 or whatever else? You Patient people being 903 00:58:22,600 --> 00:58:25,800 depressed and and shown that these Improvement. 904 00:58:25,800 --> 00:58:28,800 How much of their an outcome of the assumptions of those who 905 00:58:28,800 --> 00:58:32,600 actually modulating the experiments. 906 00:58:33,300 --> 00:58:37,200 So you still have this thread going all the way through to the 907 00:58:37,200 --> 00:58:39,600 present day right now in the middle of the Psychedelic 908 00:58:39,700 --> 00:58:42,400 Renaissance, where all these claims have been made for the 909 00:58:42,408 --> 00:58:47,500 therapeutic potential of expect? Not least it's not on the 910 00:58:47,500 --> 00:58:52,900 sidelines you know I will say this And I even brought this up, 911 00:58:52,900 --> 00:58:55,200 I don't know if you're familiar with her show, I have severe 912 00:58:55,200 --> 00:58:58,700 OCD. I was resistant to all 913 00:58:59,400 --> 00:59:03,100 treatments pretty much that were thrown at me from 4 years, 10 914 00:59:03,100 --> 00:59:08,400 years, as a star eyes psychotherapies, any kind of 915 00:59:08,408 --> 00:59:11,300 therapy, you can think of hypnotherapy, I tried everything 916 00:59:12,900 --> 00:59:17,200 and in my life, I mean, I have a relationship with psilocybin. 917 00:59:17,200 --> 00:59:21,200 I've done it a few hundred times throughout my adult life and 918 00:59:21,200 --> 00:59:25,600 even In high school years I guess you can talk about but 919 00:59:27,900 --> 00:59:32,600 that has been the single, most helpful thing in terms of OCD is 920 00:59:32,600 --> 00:59:36,400 like a mindtrap you obsess. And it's like, you think of the 921 00:59:36,408 --> 00:59:38,900 same thought and it's like, you can't get out of it. 922 00:59:39,800 --> 00:59:42,700 So what it allows you to do is take a step back, kind of, look 923 00:59:42,700 --> 00:59:45,600 at yourself from outside yourself, and exit that Loop and 924 00:59:45,600 --> 00:59:47,900 understand, okay? This is what's happening and 925 00:59:47,900 --> 00:59:50,900 why. So I think mindfulness 926 00:59:50,900 --> 00:59:53,400 interests, Section. I just think psychedelics are 927 00:59:53,400 --> 00:59:56,600 tool, and I think if you're smart enough, and I hate to 928 00:59:56,700 --> 00:59:58,400 disparage, anybody who, whatever? 929 00:59:58,400 --> 01:00:01,400 But if you're smart enough, I think you can use it as a proper 930 01:00:01,400 --> 01:00:04,000 tool and you understand what it is and you understand how to 931 01:00:04,000 --> 01:00:06,700 implement it in your life. There's people that don't or 932 01:00:06,700 --> 01:00:09,300 they use it as a party drug or they use as an escape or 933 01:00:09,300 --> 01:00:11,300 whatever. And I think that that I think 934 01:00:11,300 --> 01:00:15,600 all drugs should be legal. So for me, you know, that is 935 01:00:15,600 --> 01:00:17,800 what it is. But in that Essence, I think 936 01:00:17,800 --> 01:00:24,200 that since it's been so helpful to me I do see a lot of the 937 01:00:24,207 --> 01:00:26,500 signs for the mental health stuff where it's hopeless, for 938 01:00:26,500 --> 01:00:29,900 some mental illness and some mental issues and maybe it's 939 01:00:29,900 --> 01:00:31,600 just me. Maybe some people are more 940 01:00:31,600 --> 01:00:34,000 susceptible. That's why I always tell people. 941 01:00:34,300 --> 01:00:38,100 I am all about options, so you should have the option to take 942 01:00:38,100 --> 01:00:40,400 SS, right? You should have option to go to 943 01:00:40,400 --> 01:00:42,900 psychotherapy, CBT therapy, whatever it is. 944 01:00:43,000 --> 01:00:45,400 You should have the option to experiment with your mind too. 945 01:00:45,400 --> 01:00:49,400 If you are, you know, you're having a really tough time and 946 01:00:49,400 --> 01:00:51,400 nothing's gonna help you. Why shouldn't you be able to? 947 01:00:51,500 --> 01:00:54,500 Explore your mind and different ways to help it and stuff like 948 01:00:54,500 --> 01:00:56,200 that. So that's always been my thing 949 01:00:56,200 --> 01:00:59,500 on here is I have a pretty, pretty reasonable take where I'm 950 01:00:59,500 --> 01:01:02,200 not saying oh it only has to be psychedelics and don't take us 951 01:01:02,200 --> 01:01:05,000 as you know, it's or the opposite and vice versa. 952 01:01:05,000 --> 01:01:07,300 It's all whatever helps you and we're all different. 953 01:01:07,300 --> 01:01:09,300 We all have different biochemist, trees and 954 01:01:09,300 --> 01:01:10,800 backgrounds, and different things. 955 01:01:10,800 --> 01:01:14,100 So I just wanted to point that out because I do feel like there 956 01:01:14,100 --> 01:01:18,100 is some beneficial stuff going on with that, but I also get 957 01:01:18,100 --> 01:01:21,500 your point to where it's like it reminds me. 958 01:01:21,500 --> 01:01:25,100 Of the Cannabis thing where we're going to make it seem as 959 01:01:25,200 --> 01:01:27,300 there's nothing wrong with it at all, and we're going to push it 960 01:01:27,300 --> 01:01:29,100 through and then we'll figure it out from there. 961 01:01:29,200 --> 01:01:32,200 And to be honest with you, I don't know how I feel about 962 01:01:32,200 --> 01:01:34,300 that. I feel like I could be on board 963 01:01:34,300 --> 01:01:37,300 with that, given my history with it, but not everybody has the 964 01:01:37,300 --> 01:01:43,800 same history. So every sympathy with the with, 965 01:01:43,800 --> 01:01:47,000 if you do that, you just expressed mean what strikes me 966 01:01:47,000 --> 01:01:50,600 in that context really is, is to ask you. 967 01:01:53,600 --> 01:01:57,700 Your own, if you feel you've benefited from a cycle that 968 01:01:57,700 --> 01:01:59,800 you're not respecting dealing with it with OCD and I can 969 01:01:59,800 --> 01:02:03,900 relate to OCD, are I think touches of a OCD myself I'm 970 01:02:03,900 --> 01:02:07,800 still upset about about certain things, especially when I get a 971 01:02:07,800 --> 01:02:13,500 new book on the open it quietly and private and and so and such 972 01:02:13,500 --> 01:02:19,500 like and don't touch that one. And so I can and my father was 973 01:02:19,500 --> 01:02:23,400 very much, you see dear needed later life when he was And 974 01:02:23,400 --> 01:02:26,000 towards a touch, it dementia. And such like, it really was 975 01:02:26,000 --> 01:02:29,200 quite bad. So I'm quite familiar with with 976 01:02:29,200 --> 01:02:30,700 OCD. And I've had two happiest of my 977 01:02:30,700 --> 01:02:34,500 life and when I've had that been a little bit problematical but 978 01:02:35,300 --> 01:02:39,400 but I'm assuming that this was through your own self. 979 01:02:39,400 --> 01:02:41,700 Experimentation, with LSD of you didn't take it. 980 01:02:41,700 --> 01:02:43,100 Nephew therapeutic. Connor. 981 01:02:43,100 --> 01:02:46,300 What it was an RCA, actually, I'm not a big OST guy, I'm not 982 01:02:46,300 --> 01:02:48,800 against it. I just I've taken Alice the fair 983 01:02:48,800 --> 01:02:51,800 amount in my life. It's just more of a heady thing 984 01:02:51,800 --> 01:02:55,200 I like so Simonson. It's more all-encompassing more 985 01:02:55,200 --> 01:03:00,600 of a body feel more of a yeah, so much gentler. 986 01:03:01,100 --> 01:03:04,600 Yeah, drop somewhere between between, I just feel more at 987 01:03:04,600 --> 01:03:06,300 home with it, you know. Like, if you have a spirit 988 01:03:06,300 --> 01:03:09,800 animal or plant or what I like, that's my, the fungi is my 989 01:03:09,800 --> 01:03:12,800 thing, you know? But, um, but to that, to that 990 01:03:12,800 --> 01:03:16,800 regard, I also think it's made me a better person to because 991 01:03:16,800 --> 01:03:19,900 it's allowed me to think about on my own life and through 992 01:03:20,200 --> 01:03:23,900 examining my own life, and my own skeletons of my Things may 993 01:03:23,900 --> 01:03:25,100 issues and different things like that. 994 01:03:25,100 --> 01:03:29,000 It's made me a Kinder more empathetic gentler person. 995 01:03:29,000 --> 01:03:31,900 So I do think that there is a way that that can work through 996 01:03:31,900 --> 01:03:33,500 you. I just don't think it's as 997 01:03:33,500 --> 01:03:35,800 simple as giving somebody something and saying, you'll be 998 01:03:35,800 --> 01:03:37,800 fine. I think that there's a lot more 999 01:03:37,800 --> 01:03:41,800 layers to it than just that. Yeah, but the point to me that 1000 01:03:41,800 --> 01:03:46,600 is that you, you self-medicated, so to speak and it's not quite 1001 01:03:46,600 --> 01:03:51,800 self-medicated, it is what it is for, but that it was for your 1002 01:03:51,800 --> 01:03:54,600 own personal use and your own personal circumstances and 1003 01:03:54,600 --> 01:03:57,900 usually journey through your life, to come to the point of 1004 01:03:57,900 --> 01:04:03,200 taking it and you had to have certain assumptions about it and 1005 01:04:03,200 --> 01:04:06,400 so on and that fit into your your experience. 1006 01:04:06,400 --> 01:04:08,000 But it was through your own choice in your own 1007 01:04:08,000 --> 01:04:12,100 experimentation. And I mean I cannot imagine 1008 01:04:12,900 --> 01:04:18,700 putting myself in the hands of a therapist under the influence of 1009 01:04:18,700 --> 01:04:21,200 a psychedelic. Oh yeah. 1010 01:04:21,500 --> 01:04:25,300 But again, Frank Beamer. Oh no my Lord. 1011 01:04:25,300 --> 01:04:27,600 That you tripped me before. I'm not a person that's going to 1012 01:04:27,607 --> 01:04:31,700 go sit in a circle in South America and do Ayahuasca with a 1013 01:04:31,700 --> 01:04:33,300 bunch of people. If I was going to do DMT and 1014 01:04:33,300 --> 01:04:35,500 I've the EMTs like the Last Frontier for me. 1015 01:04:35,500 --> 01:04:39,000 It's the one that I still have not done and I've done all right 1016 01:04:39,000 --> 01:04:42,800 away and if I were to do it I wouldn't be doing it in a group 1017 01:04:42,800 --> 01:04:44,500 of people. I would have a babysitter 1018 01:04:44,500 --> 01:04:47,500 somebody I trust watching me while I do and that's about it. 1019 01:04:47,600 --> 01:04:49,300 Not that's not to say. That doesn't work for other 1020 01:04:49,300 --> 01:04:50,500 people. I know other people that love to 1021 01:04:50,500 --> 01:04:55,700 go sit ceremony and love to sit. With friends and colleagues and 1022 01:04:55,700 --> 01:04:58,300 different things. But again, I think it's just 1023 01:04:58,300 --> 01:05:00,500 knowing yourself know that, you know, goes back to the old, 1024 01:05:00,500 --> 01:05:04,300 thales know thyself. And if you know yourself, you 1025 01:05:04,300 --> 01:05:07,000 know, with these compounds. But I will say this, to your 1026 01:05:07,000 --> 01:05:08,100 point. I think I know where you were 1027 01:05:08,100 --> 01:05:09,300 going. I don't know if you were going 1028 01:05:09,300 --> 01:05:12,600 to say this, but to imagine that this would become a Mainstay of 1029 01:05:12,600 --> 01:05:13,900 like therapy. Like you. 1030 01:05:14,100 --> 01:05:16,000 They're recommending people. Go trip. 1031 01:05:16,000 --> 01:05:17,900 I don't agree with that. I think it should be something 1032 01:05:17,900 --> 01:05:21,800 that you still seek yourself. Like, yeah. 1033 01:05:22,100 --> 01:05:24,100 I guess what I'm saying is this I don't think that it should be 1034 01:05:24,100 --> 01:05:27,500 prescribed, like how other things are prescribed. 1035 01:05:27,500 --> 01:05:31,400 You should still be open to wanting to do it and not like as 1036 01:05:32,400 --> 01:05:37,900 a regular part of whatever medical, you know, I don't like 1037 01:05:37,900 --> 01:05:40,100 how, you know, how they were just kicking out ssris for 1038 01:05:40,100 --> 01:05:41,300 years. Like I don't think it should be 1039 01:05:41,300 --> 01:05:42,700 anything like that. I think it should because it's 1040 01:05:42,700 --> 01:05:45,200 so powerful. It's still should be up to the 1041 01:05:45,200 --> 01:05:47,900 person. Maybe we offer it more easily 1042 01:05:47,900 --> 01:05:50,500 and give more knowledge, and background and everything. 1043 01:05:50,500 --> 01:05:53,500 And and hey, if you want to try this, but here's the downside, 1044 01:05:53,600 --> 01:05:56,700 here's the upside kind of a thing and allow people to figure 1045 01:05:56,700 --> 01:06:00,600 it out on their own. Yeah, I think what I was trying 1046 01:06:00,600 --> 01:06:06,300 to suggest here is that there's a lot of this plenty of popular 1047 01:06:06,300 --> 01:06:09,300 wisdom. Mm to be found about 1048 01:06:09,500 --> 01:06:15,100 psychedelics and if you if you seek it out, if you open to to 1049 01:06:15,100 --> 01:06:19,500 that and I'm an advocate we're already is the transgression 1050 01:06:19,500 --> 01:06:24,000 essay at the beginning of the book, really is a Comedown 1051 01:06:24,000 --> 01:06:26,700 rather against medicalization. I'm not saying there's not a 1052 01:06:26,700 --> 01:06:28,200 place for it, I'm not against it. 1053 01:06:28,300 --> 01:06:32,200 If you're not going to stop it, I mean, Farmers going to get 1054 01:06:32,200 --> 01:06:34,700 hold of them and and something will develop their, we've yet to 1055 01:06:34,700 --> 01:06:40,400 see exactly where that all goes. And then against again I'm kind 1056 01:06:40,400 --> 01:06:46,600 of against the the formal spiritual is for me for me. 1057 01:06:47,000 --> 01:06:53,100 But but I feel it's the history that I identify with is is the 1058 01:06:53,600 --> 01:06:59,400 artistic and creative use of psychedelics in in what is a you 1059 01:06:59,400 --> 01:07:05,900 know part generally speaking of a kind of Subculture, I suppose. 1060 01:07:07,100 --> 01:07:10,500 And that's what historically I guess I identify identify. 1061 01:07:10,500 --> 01:07:14,900 We haven't been a teenager in the seventies and, and mentality 1062 01:07:14,900 --> 01:07:19,800 in a particular kind of context and then returned to me my own 1063 01:07:19,800 --> 01:07:22,400 story, which you didn't actually asked me at the beginning is 1064 01:07:22,400 --> 01:07:24,700 all, you know, what was my original experience or, why did 1065 01:07:24,700 --> 01:07:27,900 I have even had an interest in, that's a rookie podcast move, 1066 01:07:27,900 --> 01:07:31,700 but let's get it in here now, give us a little summary, but 1067 01:07:31,700 --> 01:07:34,200 only to show you that my Introduction was in the 1068 01:07:34,200 --> 01:07:37,700 seventies, as a teenager. And, you know, kids at school 1069 01:07:37,700 --> 01:07:40,300 were talking about LSD and I thought, well, I got to try this 1070 01:07:40,700 --> 01:07:45,300 and that is where it started, but I did then move away into 1071 01:07:45,300 --> 01:07:48,100 the kind of getting there without drugs, kind of thing, 1072 01:07:48,500 --> 01:07:51,800 and an experiment with other other things in kind of drifted 1073 01:07:51,800 --> 01:07:57,500 away and then I got made redundant from, I was working 1074 01:07:57,500 --> 01:08:00,800 for like a hippie company, enforcing Japanese, some 1075 01:08:00,800 --> 01:08:04,700 seaweeds and such like, and Is made redundant walked out by 1076 01:08:04,700 --> 01:08:08,100 much bigger company and of understory there. 1077 01:08:08,500 --> 01:08:10,800 And my wife said to me and what my thinking, why didn't go to 1078 01:08:10,800 --> 01:08:14,800 university and just purely by Chance? 1079 01:08:14,800 --> 01:08:16,899 The local is a Polytechnic at that time. 1080 01:08:16,899 --> 01:08:20,100 Now now is a university and they had a history of ideas. 1081 01:08:20,100 --> 01:08:22,700 Course there are a lot of one of the, I think the only one in the 1082 01:08:22,707 --> 01:08:26,500 country quite unusual. So we study his just Science, 1083 01:08:26,500 --> 01:08:31,399 History of philosophy, history of Art, and so on history of bit 1084 01:08:31,399 --> 01:08:37,300 of everything, really And so I took my Graduate Studies there 1085 01:08:37,300 --> 01:08:41,399 and graduation history of ideas and he was kind of after that 1086 01:08:41,899 --> 01:08:45,800 that I was kind of moved to apply some of the disciplines. 1087 01:08:45,800 --> 01:08:48,800 I hope that I took kind of learn through just as an undergraduate 1088 01:08:48,800 --> 01:08:51,899 there and started applying them to my injuries as well. 1089 01:08:51,899 --> 01:08:55,000 That was what I didn't really say there is that that was about 1090 01:08:55,000 --> 01:09:00,000 the time that Terence McKenna was coming in to interview and 1091 01:09:00,000 --> 01:09:02,399 picked up one of his books. The one with the nice toned ape 1092 01:09:02,399 --> 01:09:06,800 theory in it. And I would have got that and 1093 01:09:06,800 --> 01:09:07,800 food you got. There we go. 1094 01:09:07,800 --> 01:09:10,500 Yeah. And that was my that renewed, my 1095 01:09:10,500 --> 01:09:14,399 interest in something you've got really quite moved away from and 1096 01:09:14,399 --> 01:09:19,399 so that renewed my interest and I kind of moved it in there and 1097 01:09:19,399 --> 01:09:21,000 my brother. My late brother, unfortunately 1098 01:09:21,000 --> 01:09:25,200 passed away. We both experienced a bit with 1099 01:09:25,200 --> 01:09:29,300 actually back in the 70s and opened a new realm. 1100 01:09:29,300 --> 01:09:30,600 Are people can become the expert. 1101 01:09:30,600 --> 01:09:33,100 Garlic mushrooms is like a science guy. 1102 01:09:33,300 --> 01:09:36,300 I was always arts and he was, you know, in the, in the, the 1103 01:09:36,300 --> 01:09:39,700 Airing cupboard. It only had good little boxes 1104 01:09:39,700 --> 01:09:42,800 and jars of tinfoil on the hero stuff. 1105 01:09:43,300 --> 01:09:46,200 An expert mushroom cultivator hair in my, my light. 1106 01:09:46,200 --> 01:09:49,700 My late brother, lovely guy from the, he had that he have to have 1107 01:09:49,700 --> 01:09:54,400 the, you have to have the willingness to be absolutely 1108 01:09:54,400 --> 01:09:56,800 scrupulously, clean. And, and all of that kind of 1109 01:09:56,800 --> 01:09:58,100 stuff. Those kind of disciplines, which 1110 01:09:58,100 --> 01:09:59,600 are not. I'm not really in here that 1111 01:09:59,600 --> 01:10:01,800 patients to do all of that, all of that stuff. 1112 01:10:01,800 --> 01:10:04,600 But the only way, You die are interested in. 1113 01:10:04,600 --> 01:10:08,600 He back in the 70s, we were without picking mushrooms. 1114 01:10:08,600 --> 01:10:10,600 When that became with this facility. 1115 01:10:10,600 --> 01:10:12,800 I'd be mushrooms. And in the fields when they when 1116 01:10:12,800 --> 01:10:15,100 those first came into the news. But anyway, that was my 1117 01:10:15,100 --> 01:10:18,800 background and and I started writing and it was really 1118 01:10:18,800 --> 01:10:22,900 through meeting Chris, been attacked in Vancouver and went 1119 01:10:22,900 --> 01:10:26,100 to one of his honours here. We've had Chris son, Chris got a 1120 01:10:26,108 --> 01:10:31,800 new book coming out too soon about in Judea cannabis rituals. 1121 01:10:32,400 --> 01:10:34,300 Yes. Make Chris out in Vancouver. 1122 01:10:34,300 --> 01:10:36,800 I went out to conference there and they're everywhere met Carl 1123 01:10:36,800 --> 01:10:38,700 and Blaze who before he passed away. 1124 01:10:39,200 --> 01:10:43,800 And And things really took off from from there. 1125 01:10:43,800 --> 01:10:48,000 So it was a kind of Revival of interest in my part that got me 1126 01:10:48,000 --> 01:10:52,800 started in reading and writing Nice. 1127 01:10:52,900 --> 01:10:55,800 Yeah, I know. It's a it's a good back story. 1128 01:10:55,800 --> 01:11:00,300 I, yeah, I think Chris is probably one of the best 1129 01:11:00,400 --> 01:11:03,600 cannabis writers out there to be honest with you. 1130 01:11:03,900 --> 01:11:07,300 We had a mind for his part of our what was Soma Series, where 1131 01:11:07,300 --> 01:11:10,600 we were discussing the different candidates for Soma and 1132 01:11:10,600 --> 01:11:15,400 obviously his cannabis. And yeah, I'd like to I'd like 1133 01:11:15,400 --> 01:11:19,300 to hook up again we for some time, but we have to make a wise 1134 01:11:19,300 --> 01:11:22,000 one to make him dinner. Went out there and spoke second. 1135 01:11:22,200 --> 01:11:26,600 For us to eat healthy but, but there we are. 1136 01:11:26,600 --> 01:11:30,900 Yes, it's I have already his last book going with the title 1137 01:11:30,900 --> 01:11:32,000 of it. There's nothing I move to. 1138 01:11:32,000 --> 01:11:33,700 I think he's on the East Coast Canada. 1139 01:11:33,700 --> 01:11:36,200 Now he was living being covered. Yeah. 1140 01:11:36,200 --> 01:11:39,900 You think he's like New Brunswick or whatever East Coast 1141 01:11:39,900 --> 01:11:41,000 this? Yeah. 1142 01:11:41,200 --> 01:11:45,300 Yeah he's come a long long way and I hope we've all come a lot 1143 01:11:45,700 --> 01:11:48,100 along my in his most recent occasion is really really pretty 1144 01:11:48,100 --> 01:11:50,700 good stuff. We'll listen now and well let's 1145 01:11:50,700 --> 01:11:53,700 wrap it up here. I like to get you back on some 1146 01:11:53,700 --> 01:11:55,800 time in the future gonna there's probably a lot we can discuss 1147 01:11:55,800 --> 01:11:59,200 and maybe even next time we can get pde in here and because I 1148 01:11:59,208 --> 01:12:01,900 know he had some good questions when I mentioned you were coming 1149 01:12:01,900 --> 01:12:03,600 on. He's like, oh, I got to be on 1150 01:12:03,600 --> 01:12:05,400 that episode. And then, unfortunately, today 1151 01:12:05,400 --> 01:12:08,600 he had to jump on a plane a lot earlier than he thought. 1152 01:12:08,600 --> 01:12:14,100 But yeah, I really enjoyed this one connections that are between 1153 01:12:14,100 --> 01:12:17,600 people between people's stuff. I've haven't actually had a 1154 01:12:17,600 --> 01:12:20,000 chance to read it. I got his angels in Vermillion. 1155 01:12:20,200 --> 01:12:22,000 Yeah, there's dignity to that little bit. 1156 01:12:22,700 --> 01:12:26,700 And yes very very interesting stuff. 1157 01:12:26,700 --> 01:12:31,400 Yeah harm. Yeah, everybody check it out. 1158 01:12:31,600 --> 01:12:35,200 You can go to psychedelic press website and purchase it. 1159 01:12:35,600 --> 01:12:39,300 I also have the Amazon link to a few of the Hop back copies left 1160 01:12:39,500 --> 01:12:41,700 so there only, I think like, 300 and hardbacks. 1161 01:12:41,700 --> 01:12:42,600 Yep. Thank you. 1162 01:12:42,600 --> 01:12:46,900 Two rabbits, psychedelic press. They also thank you for setting 1163 01:12:46,900 --> 01:12:50,300 this up and listen. Yeah, like I said, L, I'd love 1164 01:12:50,300 --> 01:12:53,300 to get you back on again in the future and And appreciate what 1165 01:12:53,300 --> 01:12:54,900 you're doing. And I love this kind of 1166 01:12:54,900 --> 01:12:56,900 research. And obviously, you're passionate 1167 01:12:56,900 --> 01:13:00,600 about the topic which comes through your writing and your 1168 01:13:00,600 --> 01:13:02,600 interest in the topic which is always. 1169 01:13:03,500 --> 01:13:06,300 Yeah, I think that's the one thing I look for when I look for 1170 01:13:06,300 --> 01:13:10,000 guests and stuff. So but listen, I really started 1171 01:13:10,200 --> 01:13:13,000 having me. Yeah, no problem and good luck 1172 01:13:13,000 --> 01:13:15,200 with your book. I'm sure it'll do well, it's 1173 01:13:15,200 --> 01:13:16,900 already Dino. It's I've already seen it out 1174 01:13:16,900 --> 01:13:18,300 there. Tons people reading it. 1175 01:13:18,300 --> 01:13:22,200 So but yeah, you know, we're going to wrap it up here. 1176 01:13:22,300 --> 01:13:25,800 We buddy again, please check out Allen's book. 1177 01:13:25,800 --> 01:13:29,900 The link is down below at the bottom and yeah, you can follow 1178 01:13:29,900 --> 01:13:34,100 them on Twitter. I believe your Twitter handle is 1179 01:13:34,200 --> 01:13:35,100 ahead. It here. 1180 01:13:35,200 --> 01:13:42,100 Let me pull it up. Follow them on Twitter at What 1181 01:13:42,100 --> 01:13:48,100 do we have here? Yep, it's AT&T Zan Jo. 1182 01:13:49,800 --> 01:13:56,000 And yeah, you can follow us on Twitter at Mike escape and yeah, 1183 01:13:56,000 --> 01:13:57,200 that's it. If you want to support, mind 1184 01:13:57,200 --> 01:13:59,100 Escape click, the link tree link down below. 1185 01:13:59,100 --> 01:14:03,700 All of our links are on there. We do our show Live on YouTube 1186 01:14:04,300 --> 01:14:07,200 and we are also on all audio platforms to we have video 1187 01:14:07,200 --> 01:14:11,300 episodes on Spotify. So, check us out on there and a 1188 01:14:11,308 --> 01:14:13,300 good way. To support the show is just to 1189 01:14:13,300 --> 01:14:15,900 leave us a nice review, we really appreciate that on Apple 1190 01:14:15,900 --> 01:14:20,600 podcast Spotify, whatever it is and if you have not already our 1191 01:14:20,600 --> 01:14:23,200 documentary is out, it's called as within. 1192 01:14:23,200 --> 01:14:27,600 So, without from UFOs, to DMT, where we look at those phenomena 1193 01:14:27,600 --> 01:14:31,800 and correlation with the mind, I will play the trailer as we exit 1194 01:14:31,800 --> 01:14:37,900 here today and again, check out our link is down below, Maurice 1195 01:14:37,900 --> 01:14:41,100 and I are working on a way to get that out there to more 1196 01:14:41,100 --> 01:14:43,000 people. Shortly and it will be 1197 01:14:43,000 --> 01:14:47,300 premiering at our buddy Toby's Film Festival. 1198 01:14:47,300 --> 01:14:50,700 The Roswell Daily records putting on a film festival. 1199 01:14:50,700 --> 01:14:54,500 At the end of May beginning of June, so please check that out. 1200 01:14:55,200 --> 01:14:58,100 And that's it. We love everybody. 1201 01:14:58,100 --> 01:15:00,700 Stay safe out there and we'll catch you next time. 1202 01:15:01,000 --> 01:15:02,700 Peace. Thanks so much for your time, 1203 01:15:02,700 --> 01:15:06,200 have to believe. Something's here, there's no 1204 01:15:06,200 --> 01:15:09,900 question about that. They are not just from this 1205 01:15:09,900 --> 01:15:12,400 planet, but based on the Characteristics. 1206 01:15:12,400 --> 01:15:15,000 Their most often described having that they're simply us 1207 01:15:15,000 --> 01:15:18,600 from the future. It was the biggest aircraft I've 1208 01:15:18,600 --> 01:15:23,800 ever seen in my entire life. It was semi-translucent. 1209 01:15:23,800 --> 01:15:28,700 It seemed we see for orange orbs flying one after another. 1210 01:15:28,700 --> 01:15:32,700 Basically in formation, I think in a way you know you could call 1211 01:15:32,700 --> 01:15:37,100 a UFO or flying dream. All of the cornfield that 7 foot 1212 01:15:37,100 --> 01:15:41,500 tall, gray missing, communion looking alien or whatever you 1213 01:15:41,500 --> 01:15:44,300 want. To call it because it can be a 1214 01:15:44,308 --> 01:15:50,600 multitude of things of deities of Godlike creatures of aliens. 1215 01:15:50,700 --> 01:15:53,600 The reality that we experience on a day-to-day basis seems to 1216 01:15:53,600 --> 01:15:58,100 be this very, very thin slice of something far, larger and far 1217 01:15:58,100 --> 01:16:05,300 more complex as within. So, without from UFOs to DMT.