1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:03,680 Advertising on podcast is proven to be very effective. 2 00:00:04,320 --> 00:00:08,400 Research has shown that because listeners trust the hosts, they 3 00:00:08,400 --> 00:00:11,200 are more likely to trust the content of an advert. 4 00:00:11,920 --> 00:00:15,440 The News Navigators is growing, so why not grow with us? 5 00:00:15,840 --> 00:00:19,360 Get your message out to the people who matter while also 6 00:00:19,360 --> 00:00:24,520 helping to support good independent, fact based opinion 7 00:00:24,880 --> 00:00:31,920 and analysis. Call us on 534-2205 or e-mail 8 00:00:32,040 --> 00:00:49,520 the news navs@gmail.com. The News Navigators with me, 9 00:00:49,520 --> 00:00:52,040 Jeremy Deacon. And me, Jonathan Sterling. 10 00:00:53,680 --> 00:00:57,880 Before we start, we're going to have a look at the row over 11 00:00:58,320 --> 00:01:03,440 absentee ballots and the proposed Oba legislation. 12 00:01:03,440 --> 00:01:06,240 There never was. And then the ongoing debate 13 00:01:06,240 --> 00:01:08,880 about CARICOM and this time about the referendum. 14 00:01:09,120 --> 00:01:11,920 Just before we start, Jonathan, only to impart a little bit of 15 00:01:11,920 --> 00:01:15,720 knowledge to you. So my sister-in-law was trying 16 00:01:15,720 --> 00:01:21,320 to search for the News Navigators and she sent me what 17 00:01:21,320 --> 00:01:25,400 it came up with and it's a Jeremy Deacon's Bermuda podcast. 18 00:01:25,400 --> 00:01:32,600 Here's the clear up to Sarah, that is actually more 19 00:01:32,600 --> 00:01:34,720 interesting than most people realise. 20 00:01:36,240 --> 00:01:39,000 That's good. Thanks AI. 21 00:01:39,520 --> 00:01:43,160 Yeah, thanks, AI. If ever there was a backhanded 22 00:01:43,160 --> 00:01:46,520 compliment, that was it. Wasn't it really more 23 00:01:46,520 --> 00:01:48,480 interesting than most people realise? 24 00:01:49,080 --> 00:01:51,600 Well, that's going to feed my imposter syndrome a little. 25 00:01:53,880 --> 00:01:58,640 I mean, it could be our last podcast, you know, all that time 26 00:01:58,640 --> 00:02:02,000 and effort. That was a nice compliment, even 27 00:02:02,000 --> 00:02:04,400 if tad backhanded. Was it a compliment? 28 00:02:04,400 --> 00:02:07,120 I don't know if it was more interesting than people 29 00:02:07,120 --> 00:02:09,039 realised. Damned with faint praise, that 30 00:02:09,039 --> 00:02:14,560 was. A good guy, good way to end the 31 00:02:14,560 --> 00:02:18,240 year. I hope it's not the way we start 32 00:02:18,240 --> 00:02:21,880 the new year do slightly better than that. 33 00:02:22,720 --> 00:02:26,800 Jonathan, wanting to talk about this absentee voting, I think 34 00:02:26,800 --> 00:02:30,480 it's quite close to your heart. Tell us the background and what 35 00:02:30,480 --> 00:02:34,040 do you want to say about it? Right. 36 00:02:34,040 --> 00:02:37,760 So I mean, the the issue of absentee voting, especially for 37 00:02:37,760 --> 00:02:42,040 overseas students, has kind of been, I think the right word is 38 00:02:42,040 --> 00:02:46,320 a perennial issue, But it only tends to get raised after an 39 00:02:46,320 --> 00:02:49,120 election rate is dropped. And then all the students who 40 00:02:49,120 --> 00:02:51,160 can't vote are like, oh, I can't vote. 41 00:02:51,360 --> 00:02:53,000 How come we don't have absentee voting? 42 00:02:53,520 --> 00:02:57,560 And of course, it's too late to change the system after the 43 00:02:57,560 --> 00:03:02,080 election is called and historically attempts to be 44 00:03:02,080 --> 00:03:05,880 forgotten shortly after the election until it's raised again 45 00:03:05,880 --> 00:03:09,600 for the next election. This year was a bit different 46 00:03:09,640 --> 00:03:13,680 because of course, we had the general election was called in 47 00:03:13,680 --> 00:03:17,320 early January and the election itself was held in February. 48 00:03:19,280 --> 00:03:22,360 I think the proximity to the students who had just been here 49 00:03:22,640 --> 00:03:28,000 for Christmas and then having left kind of I think that kind 50 00:03:28,000 --> 00:03:32,240 of turbocharged it a little. Also it's it should be added 51 00:03:32,240 --> 00:03:36,120 that the Oba, the 1 Bermuda Alliance, when they were elected 52 00:03:36,120 --> 00:03:41,320 in the December 2012 election, they had in their platform a 53 00:03:41,320 --> 00:03:43,480 mandate to introduce absentee voting. 54 00:03:44,280 --> 00:03:47,200 They for whatever reason didn't get around to it. 55 00:03:47,200 --> 00:03:48,840 They they did have a lot on their plate. 56 00:03:49,960 --> 00:03:52,280 I understand they did start working on it, but they just 57 00:03:52,280 --> 00:03:57,800 never were able to get it in place before the 2017 election. 58 00:03:59,280 --> 00:04:01,800 But they were the first political party, as far as I am 59 00:04:01,800 --> 00:04:07,040 aware, that was elected with that as a platform promise, and 60 00:04:07,480 --> 00:04:13,960 the PLP only adopted that in the 2025 election, this election, I 61 00:04:13,960 --> 00:04:19,120 think in response to the criticism that they got at the 62 00:04:19,120 --> 00:04:24,040 time. Since then it's been raised as a 63 00:04:24,040 --> 00:04:28,320 continuous issue since the February election, which is 64 00:04:28,320 --> 00:04:30,240 unusual. As I said, normally he gets 65 00:04:30,240 --> 00:04:32,520 raised during the election and then it's forgotten about for 66 00:04:32,520 --> 00:04:36,520 another four to five years. And earlier this year, I want to 67 00:04:36,520 --> 00:04:44,440 say it was in October, the Oba tabled an act, an opposition 68 00:04:44,440 --> 00:04:47,240 act. The absentee voting Act, Yeah. 69 00:04:47,720 --> 00:04:49,920 Right. So they tabled that. 70 00:04:51,200 --> 00:04:55,640 The government, the PLP did ask them to withdraw it and say, 71 00:04:55,640 --> 00:04:58,520 look, we're all working on this, we would like to do this 72 00:04:58,520 --> 00:05:02,520 bipartisanship wise, can you withdraw this and we'll talk and 73 00:05:02,520 --> 00:05:06,800 figure it all out together. The Oba refused to do that and 74 00:05:07,080 --> 00:05:12,640 kept it on the order paper. Subsequent to that, the PLP did 75 00:05:12,640 --> 00:05:16,040 start their process of town hall meetings. 76 00:05:16,400 --> 00:05:19,840 There was one a couple weeks ago at Harrington Workmen's Club, 77 00:05:20,360 --> 00:05:25,840 which I did at 10. There's one next week on Monday 78 00:05:26,480 --> 00:05:29,400 I think that's. It on the 17th by the way. 79 00:05:29,400 --> 00:05:32,440 Sorry, I was just listening to recording on the 17th. 80 00:05:32,600 --> 00:05:35,520 I should have clarified that there's one on the coming 81 00:05:35,520 --> 00:05:39,480 Monday, which is December 22nd, that's for youth in particular 82 00:05:39,480 --> 00:05:40,800 is going to be held up at Cedar Bridge. 83 00:05:40,800 --> 00:05:44,400 But there's an online option so lots of people can join. 84 00:05:45,120 --> 00:05:48,960 From what I gathered from the town hall meeting at Harrington 85 00:05:48,960 --> 00:05:51,400 Workman's Club, they're just kind of starting and they're 86 00:05:51,400 --> 00:05:54,040 just saying, what do you think should be in there? 87 00:05:54,320 --> 00:05:56,320 And it's not just absentee voting in these town hall 88 00:05:56,320 --> 00:05:58,600 meetings. There's also wider election 89 00:05:58,600 --> 00:06:01,200 reform, including a campaign finance laws. 90 00:06:01,600 --> 00:06:04,720 So that seems to be the wider aspect, but the focus is on the 91 00:06:04,720 --> 00:06:09,360 absentee voting from what I could gather more recently. 92 00:06:09,600 --> 00:06:16,320 This is a long recap. More recently, last Friday, the 93 00:06:16,680 --> 00:06:24,600 the Opposition Absentee Voting Act was withdrawn because the 94 00:06:24,600 --> 00:06:27,760 Parliamentary Registrar sent a note to, I guess the 95 00:06:27,760 --> 00:06:30,960 parliamentary Speaker to say this would cost public funds and 96 00:06:30,960 --> 00:06:36,040 therefore it is a money bill which the opposition is not 97 00:06:36,080 --> 00:06:39,480 allowed to table. Only governments, only the 98 00:06:39,480 --> 00:06:42,480 governing party is allowed to table what are called money 99 00:06:42,480 --> 00:06:48,360 bills, Independents, individual MPs Opposition cannot table 100 00:06:48,360 --> 00:06:50,960 those. I should probably clarify what a 101 00:06:50,960 --> 00:06:53,880 money bill is. Anything that spends money. 102 00:06:54,400 --> 00:06:58,480 Yes, anything that would require the spent the expense of public 103 00:06:58,480 --> 00:07:04,520 funds and of course absentee balloting that would likely 104 00:07:05,000 --> 00:07:08,160 you'd need public funds to cover. 105 00:07:08,440 --> 00:07:12,320 It's not that the and I only say this because I've seen comments 106 00:07:12,320 --> 00:07:15,560 online with people saying oh what they can't afford absent 107 00:07:15,560 --> 00:07:18,560 the voting. That's not the issue. 108 00:07:18,560 --> 00:07:22,840 It's a parliamentary procedure. Only the government can table 109 00:07:22,840 --> 00:07:24,640 money bills. It's not that the money isn't 110 00:07:24,640 --> 00:07:27,240 there, it's just that the opposition is not allowed to 111 00:07:27,240 --> 00:07:30,920 table money bills. So I just wanted to clarify 112 00:07:30,920 --> 00:07:34,160 that. So there's a lot to unpack here, 113 00:07:34,360 --> 00:07:39,640 I think. I mean, yes, the Oba refused to 114 00:07:39,640 --> 00:07:48,040 withdraw its legislation and it's subsequently argued against 115 00:07:48,040 --> 00:07:51,840 the the money bill, saying that the government had already 116 00:07:51,840 --> 00:07:57,560 allocated some $55,000 via supplementary spending. 117 00:07:57,560 --> 00:08:01,440 This is a quote to electoral reform during the last session, 118 00:08:01,440 --> 00:08:03,360 making the point quite redundant. 119 00:08:04,040 --> 00:08:07,560 That's according to Dwayne Robinson, who was behind the AB 120 00:08:07,680 --> 00:08:10,520 as legislation. So that's one question that 121 00:08:10,520 --> 00:08:12,320 hasn't. I hadn't really seen an answer 122 00:08:12,320 --> 00:08:18,280 to for about 55, so the 55,000 is irrelevant. 123 00:08:18,520 --> 00:08:20,760 That's a bit of a red herring in my opinion. 124 00:08:20,760 --> 00:08:23,680 It's an irrelevant point. It's still parliamentary 125 00:08:23,680 --> 00:08:26,360 procedure that the opposition cannot table. 126 00:08:26,360 --> 00:08:29,120 A money bill doesn't matter if money is already allocated in 127 00:08:29,120 --> 00:08:31,280 the budget. It's a simple parliamentary 128 00:08:31,280 --> 00:08:36,640 procedure. But I do want to give kudos to 129 00:08:36,640 --> 00:08:40,120 the OBAI do think the PLP was proceeding with this anyway. 130 00:08:40,120 --> 00:08:44,000 But the fact that the Oba did table this helped keep it up in 131 00:08:44,000 --> 00:08:47,600 the public mind. And that's certainly probably 132 00:08:47,600 --> 00:08:51,400 you could argue lit the fire under the PLP to really move on 133 00:08:51,400 --> 00:08:53,720 this. So I do want to give kudos to 134 00:08:53,720 --> 00:08:55,240 the OB. I'm not attacking them. 135 00:08:55,480 --> 00:08:57,280 I'm just saying I'm purely on a money bill. 136 00:08:57,280 --> 00:09:00,840 They can't table it. We just so the listeners know 137 00:09:00,840 --> 00:09:03,920 we're using a, a podcast platform here to do this 138 00:09:04,240 --> 00:09:07,520 discussion remotely. And just for a second, Jonathan, 139 00:09:07,720 --> 00:09:10,320 you froze. Oh, I'm sorry. 140 00:09:10,640 --> 00:09:13,320 Just as you were about to talk about the red herring and why 141 00:09:13,320 --> 00:09:16,880 the 55 K was a red herring, can you just recap on that in case 142 00:09:17,320 --> 00:09:19,320 the listeners didn't get it? Sure. 143 00:09:19,320 --> 00:09:23,400 So yes, money has been allocated in the budget, but that 144 00:09:23,920 --> 00:09:27,240 irrelevance in terms of parliamentary procedure, it's a 145 00:09:27,240 --> 00:09:31,120 parliamentary rule that the opposition cannot table a money 146 00:09:31,120 --> 00:09:32,960 bill. That's, that's all it is. 147 00:09:32,960 --> 00:09:36,000 Doesn't matter if money's allocated or not, they just 148 00:09:36,000 --> 00:09:37,840 can't table it. That's that's it. 149 00:09:37,840 --> 00:09:41,800 And. You you went on to say that this 150 00:09:41,800 --> 00:09:43,360 is something I was going to talk about as well. 151 00:09:43,360 --> 00:09:48,800 Was the, was the OB as push for absentee voting? 152 00:09:49,400 --> 00:09:52,960 Was it was it that push that got government to actually do 153 00:09:52,960 --> 00:09:54,800 something? Because I'm intrigued by this 154 00:09:54,800 --> 00:09:58,840 because as you say, normally it's only ever crops up when 155 00:09:58,840 --> 00:10:02,000 there's election. Normally both parties say yeah 156 00:10:02,000 --> 00:10:05,080 in favour. Nothing happens in the in the 157 00:10:05,800 --> 00:10:09,680 preceding four or five years until the next election when we 158 00:10:09,680 --> 00:10:13,520 repeat the cycle. Isn't there an argument to say 159 00:10:13,520 --> 00:10:17,120 that what the Oba done has actually got the government to 160 00:10:17,120 --> 00:10:19,120 do something to pull the finger out? 161 00:10:20,200 --> 00:10:22,960 I think the Oba personally can probably claim a victory for 162 00:10:22,960 --> 00:10:27,480 that. And I don't want to give the Oba 163 00:10:27,480 --> 00:10:32,400 kudos for for keeping the conversation going. 164 00:10:32,760 --> 00:10:36,840 I personally do feel the PLP was proceeding with this anyway. 165 00:10:36,840 --> 00:10:39,040 I mean they just won the election in February. 166 00:10:40,120 --> 00:10:41,880 These things don't get started right away. 167 00:10:41,880 --> 00:10:45,320 You need to do policy analysis, you need to get cabinet papers 168 00:10:45,320 --> 00:10:48,240 before you even proceed with some of these things. 169 00:10:48,240 --> 00:10:51,200 He had the summer break so I do think the PLP was going to 170 00:10:51,200 --> 00:10:54,800 proceed with it anyway. However, kudos should be given 171 00:10:54,800 --> 00:10:59,320 to the Oba for keeping it in the public public awareness. 172 00:10:59,680 --> 00:11:04,480 And if it did encourage the PLP to like a light, a fire under 173 00:11:04,480 --> 00:11:07,720 them to keep it going and make it more prominent, than yeah, 174 00:11:08,040 --> 00:11:09,920 sure, I'll give the LBA win on that. 175 00:11:09,920 --> 00:11:12,920 Even if I think the PLP was going to do it anyway. 176 00:11:12,920 --> 00:11:16,800 I think it did raise the public awareness, so kudos to the LBA. 177 00:11:16,960 --> 00:11:20,600 On that, I think the LBA could quite plausibly claim victory 178 00:11:20,600 --> 00:11:24,120 for this one, whether or not in the public eye. 179 00:11:24,640 --> 00:11:27,720 And let's hope, let's hope it doesn't go away. 180 00:11:28,360 --> 00:11:31,480 You know, as we both stated, you stated at the year I just stated 181 00:11:31,480 --> 00:11:36,160 these things arise in the election and then disappear Is 182 00:11:36,440 --> 00:11:41,360 the the Oba 1 was the Oba legislation was quite 183 00:11:41,360 --> 00:11:44,400 interesting. It talked about giving 184 00:11:44,400 --> 00:11:48,640 registered voters who being ordinarily resident in Bermuda, 185 00:11:49,720 --> 00:11:52,360 but who were temporarily absent like for things like study 186 00:11:52,360 --> 00:11:54,280 employment, medical treatment, etcetera. 187 00:11:54,600 --> 00:11:56,960 And they had the right to cast an absentee ballot. 188 00:11:58,480 --> 00:12:02,560 Whereas the government's plans are a little bit more vague, I 189 00:12:02,560 --> 00:12:06,720 think, and right in saying that they want to implement absentee 190 00:12:06,720 --> 00:12:11,480 voting for eligible comedians and sons and establish clear and 191 00:12:11,480 --> 00:12:14,000 transparent standards for political parties and campaign 192 00:12:14,000 --> 00:12:15,960 financing. Well, that's another matter to 193 00:12:15,960 --> 00:12:18,920 come on to. It's not cut and dried. 194 00:12:19,080 --> 00:12:22,200 Is it the legislation about how this would actually work or the 195 00:12:22,200 --> 00:12:27,000 ideas at least come out yet? And are you going to approve for 196 00:12:27,000 --> 00:12:30,440 this? Well, I mean, as I said, I did 197 00:12:30,440 --> 00:12:35,880 attend the Harrington Workmen's Club town hall meeting a couple 198 00:12:35,880 --> 00:12:39,440 weeks ago on this issue. And my impression is the 199 00:12:39,440 --> 00:12:43,480 government is just setting out and say what do people want? 200 00:12:43,560 --> 00:12:45,520 And they're getting the feedback and then they're going to do the 201 00:12:45,520 --> 00:12:48,960 research on the policy analysis to find out what is actually 202 00:12:48,960 --> 00:12:51,960 practical. Can we do all of this and what's 203 00:12:51,960 --> 00:12:54,800 the cost going to be? What if we just do this? 204 00:12:54,800 --> 00:12:58,040 What's that cost going to be? So I don't think the PLP has a 205 00:12:58,040 --> 00:13:02,240 clear plan yet because they are doing the public consultation, 206 00:13:02,480 --> 00:13:04,120 which, you know, I think that's great. 207 00:13:05,920 --> 00:13:11,320 Yeah, I suppose to the Oba one that if you're very registered 208 00:13:11,400 --> 00:13:13,320 to vote, you're not ordinarily resident. 209 00:13:14,280 --> 00:13:17,800 And ordinarily resident means you are resident in Bermuda for 210 00:13:17,800 --> 00:13:21,080 six months plus one day. Yeah, my understanding, it's not 211 00:13:21,080 --> 00:13:25,680 a, that's just my understanding. I I don't think there's a pure 212 00:13:25,680 --> 00:13:28,640 legal definition, but that's the general understanding of what it 213 00:13:28,640 --> 00:13:30,240 was. Just wondering, verification of 214 00:13:30,240 --> 00:13:35,480 that might be quite difficult. And that's the cost as well as 215 00:13:35,480 --> 00:13:37,400 how is absolutely voting going to be? 216 00:13:37,400 --> 00:13:40,200 Is it a mail in ballot? Is it going to be an online 217 00:13:40,200 --> 00:13:43,640 thing? Is it going to be maybe there's 218 00:13:44,360 --> 00:13:50,640 a polling station in one city in whatever country for medians 219 00:13:50,640 --> 00:13:53,240 happen to be in. So say all the university 220 00:13:53,240 --> 00:13:56,520 students in Canada, are they just going to go to Toronto to 221 00:13:56,520 --> 00:13:59,360 vote or is there going to be multiple polling stations or is 222 00:13:59,360 --> 00:14:03,000 it going to be an online system? No sense, wouldn't it? 223 00:14:03,280 --> 00:14:04,680 It's going to be interesting if this happens. 224 00:14:04,680 --> 00:14:07,680 I mean, we're led to believe, well, we're led to believe that 225 00:14:08,080 --> 00:14:10,160 thousands of Canadians have left the country. 226 00:14:10,880 --> 00:14:13,600 You know, there was, there was a story, was it last year, the 227 00:14:13,600 --> 00:14:16,720 year before that? I think the UK found it has 228 00:14:16,720 --> 00:14:19,040 something like 6000 Canadians registered. 229 00:14:19,600 --> 00:14:21,280 Well, we have the census next year. 230 00:14:22,040 --> 00:14:24,040 Well, I won't get the results next year though, will we? 231 00:14:24,480 --> 00:14:26,600 Yeah. It'll be some time before we get 232 00:14:26,600 --> 00:14:31,160 the results, but it's kind of interesting given how close some 233 00:14:31,160 --> 00:14:35,080 of the votes are in these constituencies, it's kind of 234 00:14:35,080 --> 00:14:36,680 make a serious amount of difference. 235 00:14:36,840 --> 00:14:39,640 Well, these are questions that have to be kind of figured out. 236 00:14:39,640 --> 00:14:43,680 So if it's a university student overseas, that's more or less 237 00:14:43,680 --> 00:14:47,360 easy enough to do because you know, they're registered where 238 00:14:47,360 --> 00:14:51,760 they lived in Bermuda. So they would, they would vote 239 00:14:51,760 --> 00:14:56,920 in their constituency where they, yeah, yeah. 240 00:14:56,920 --> 00:15:00,640 Someone who had moved, who has like immigrated overseas to the 241 00:15:00,640 --> 00:15:03,520 UK or whatever. Are they ordinarily resident? 242 00:15:03,520 --> 00:15:06,560 Should they vote? If they, if we are going to give 243 00:15:06,560 --> 00:15:08,280 them the vote, where do they vote? 244 00:15:08,680 --> 00:15:11,640 Is their vote going to be in their their constituency of 245 00:15:11,640 --> 00:15:14,480 their last place of residence? I don't know. 246 00:15:14,480 --> 00:15:16,080 These are things that we need to figure out. 247 00:15:16,480 --> 00:15:20,800 So I suppose in that respect it's probably better that the NB 248 00:15:20,800 --> 00:15:22,720 AS legislation did not get taken up. 249 00:15:23,400 --> 00:15:24,960 Yeah. I mean, I thought the OB as 250 00:15:24,960 --> 00:15:29,960 legislation and IA lot of politics is performative. 251 00:15:30,360 --> 00:15:36,120 And yeah, and as you said, we can give the Oba win on this, 252 00:15:36,120 --> 00:15:38,840 whether the PLP would quibble and say we were going to do this 253 00:15:38,840 --> 00:15:44,120 anyway, so whatever. But the kudos to the Oba is that 254 00:15:44,120 --> 00:15:47,320 they kept it in the public domain and the public thinking. 255 00:15:48,240 --> 00:15:50,840 But yes, the actual work to figure out how it's going to 256 00:15:50,840 --> 00:15:55,200 work is not as simple as someone might think. 257 00:15:55,440 --> 00:15:58,200 It's not like we can just pass a legislation tomorrow. 258 00:15:58,200 --> 00:16:00,040 We need to figure out the mechanics of how it's going to 259 00:16:00,040 --> 00:16:03,840 work. You know, where where will the 260 00:16:03,840 --> 00:16:07,240 people vote? Like physically, but also where 261 00:16:07,240 --> 00:16:09,160 would their vote count and which constituency? 262 00:16:10,000 --> 00:16:12,200 I don't think that was a point made by the minister Diyala 263 00:16:12,200 --> 00:16:15,600 Rabin that they would rather the PLP. 264 00:16:15,600 --> 00:16:19,360 The government would rather get all the legislation sorted so 265 00:16:19,360 --> 00:16:22,440 that everything was ready to implement on day one. 266 00:16:23,920 --> 00:16:29,360 The Oba legislation said would generate absentee voting but 267 00:16:29,360 --> 00:16:32,880 then leave all the details to be sorted by the parliamentary 268 00:16:32,880 --> 00:16:36,240 registrar. And I do think I mean the, the, 269 00:16:36,280 --> 00:16:40,120 the PLP minister Diyala Rabin, as you mentioned, he is being 270 00:16:40,120 --> 00:16:43,000 quite consistent throughout this to say he wants to do this 271 00:16:43,000 --> 00:16:47,840 bipartisan, he wants to work with the OBAI. 272 00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:49,960 I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt and say we 273 00:16:49,960 --> 00:16:54,880 take that at face value. I think that they, I do believe 274 00:16:54,880 --> 00:16:58,800 that the OB and the PLP will be engaged throughout this process. 275 00:16:59,160 --> 00:17:04,119 So kudos to the Oba and we're going to keep moving on. 276 00:17:04,319 --> 00:17:08,480 Kudos to the PLP for also proceeding with this and being 277 00:17:08,480 --> 00:17:11,040 open to bipartisan. Let's hope it does carry on. 278 00:17:11,040 --> 00:17:14,599 Let's hope we get a resolution. We see legislation hopefully 279 00:17:14,720 --> 00:17:17,800 sometime next year. Yeah, there was an article, I 280 00:17:17,800 --> 00:17:21,520 want to say it was actually in yesterday's paper, which it was 281 00:17:21,520 --> 00:17:26,000 December 16th, where the minister Robin was talking 282 00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:29,120 about, You know, we're really making a push for this for next 283 00:17:29,120 --> 00:17:32,080 year. We highlighted a bunch of town 284 00:17:32,080 --> 00:17:33,960 hall meetings scheduled for January. 285 00:17:34,280 --> 00:17:37,680 So I, I think the momentum is there and as long as people keep 286 00:17:38,400 --> 00:17:42,240 pushing forward. One good thing about the youth 287 00:17:42,560 --> 00:17:47,240 town hall meeting scheduled for Monday, December 22nd is there 288 00:17:47,240 --> 00:17:50,360 are going to be a lot of youth on island for. 289 00:17:50,560 --> 00:17:53,960 So hopefully they're able to attend and get their voices 290 00:17:53,960 --> 00:17:56,000 heard. If they can't attend that 291 00:17:56,000 --> 00:17:59,000 meeting, then I would encourage them while they're on island to 292 00:17:59,000 --> 00:18:04,040 reach out to their MP who has this Christmas holidays. 293 00:18:04,200 --> 00:18:08,040 They may not get a response, but I would still encourage them to, 294 00:18:08,120 --> 00:18:10,480 you know, while they're here, take advantage of that, go speak 295 00:18:10,480 --> 00:18:12,960 to their MPs and say, look, we want this. 296 00:18:13,280 --> 00:18:15,240 Absolutely. No, I totally agree. 297 00:18:16,040 --> 00:18:18,400 And I think the more people involved in the election, the 298 00:18:18,400 --> 00:18:20,720 better as the population gets older. 299 00:18:21,200 --> 00:18:25,840 You know, what was it something like last year where the 600 300 00:18:25,840 --> 00:18:29,680 people died and 400 people were born in Bermuda? 301 00:18:30,240 --> 00:18:35,200 And I think like 100 of those 400 were two expats, right? 302 00:18:35,600 --> 00:18:39,240 So the greater the involvement, the better everybody concerned. 303 00:18:39,400 --> 00:18:42,400 Otherwise the elections might come a little bit pointless. 304 00:18:43,760 --> 00:18:49,520 So Jonathan, what do you think? CARICOM big Hoo ha, it's a, it's 305 00:18:49,520 --> 00:18:53,160 a continuing topic for us on this podcast, but there's a big 306 00:18:53,160 --> 00:18:58,120 Hoo ha now about the fact that there will not be a referendum. 307 00:18:58,600 --> 00:19:02,880 Michael Fahey, the shadow Home Affairs minister, has insisted 308 00:19:02,880 --> 00:19:06,640 that his party says the people of Bermuda should determine the 309 00:19:06,640 --> 00:19:09,320 matter. The Premier says no, it will be 310 00:19:09,320 --> 00:19:12,360 dealt within the House. What do you think? 311 00:19:14,840 --> 00:19:17,120 I don't think it requires a referendum. 312 00:19:18,880 --> 00:19:21,520 I think not everything needs a referendum. 313 00:19:21,520 --> 00:19:23,280 We put it that way. A lot of things can be done 314 00:19:23,280 --> 00:19:26,400 within Parliament. There is a precedent for this to 315 00:19:26,400 --> 00:19:32,600 be done through Parliament. I was reading earlier today a 316 00:19:32,600 --> 00:19:37,240 2002 document which you can find in the archives, which was a 317 00:19:37,240 --> 00:19:41,440 discussion paper concerning Bermuda moving from observer 318 00:19:41,440 --> 00:19:44,760 status at CARICOM to associate member status. 319 00:19:46,080 --> 00:19:49,240 And that was a, that was initiated under the first PLP 320 00:19:49,240 --> 00:19:55,120 government. It was initiated in 2001 and the 321 00:19:55,120 --> 00:19:59,120 decision was done through Parliament in 2003, I believe 322 00:19:59,120 --> 00:20:01,440 was the actual parliamentary motion. 323 00:20:02,120 --> 00:20:05,560 So I, I think the precedent is there for it to be done through 324 00:20:05,560 --> 00:20:08,360 Parliaments. I think there's a lot of 325 00:20:08,600 --> 00:20:12,520 ignorance about what CARICOM actually involves. 326 00:20:15,480 --> 00:20:18,480 I also want to look at the European Union, and I think 327 00:20:18,480 --> 00:20:21,320 you've mentioned this elsewhere. Jeremy, I don't want to steal 328 00:20:21,320 --> 00:20:23,960 your Thunder, but you talked about the European Economic 329 00:20:23,960 --> 00:20:30,600 Community and the UKI. Did and that under the then Tory 330 00:20:30,600 --> 00:20:35,400 Conservative Prime Minister Edward Who UK join what was then 331 00:20:35,400 --> 00:20:40,720 called the EEC via a debate in the House of Parliament. 332 00:20:41,720 --> 00:20:46,600 Now I laid that out as just to add context, that it was 333 00:20:46,600 --> 00:20:51,960 perfectly legit for parliamentarians to decide 334 00:20:51,960 --> 00:20:54,400 membership of organisations such as this. 335 00:20:55,400 --> 00:20:58,440 It was kind of interesting then though that I had quite a lot of 336 00:20:58,880 --> 00:21:03,920 kickback on it. We joked actually about how many 337 00:21:03,920 --> 00:21:06,240 down votes I get. I only got 1 down vote on the 338 00:21:06,240 --> 00:21:08,920 comment. This is quite funny, no? 339 00:21:08,960 --> 00:21:09,720 Well, they. Didn't want to. 340 00:21:09,760 --> 00:21:11,440 They didn't want to validate your. 341 00:21:12,160 --> 00:21:14,560 I know, I know, it was a double bluff on my behalf. 342 00:21:16,240 --> 00:21:19,040 Peter Sanderson, I'm assuming you see the the legit Peter 343 00:21:19,040 --> 00:21:21,840 Sanderson, the lawyer, he replied to me. 344 00:21:21,840 --> 00:21:23,320 He said there's a key distinction. 345 00:21:23,640 --> 00:21:26,800 Edward Heath had an electoral mandate to take the UK into the 346 00:21:26,800 --> 00:21:29,320 EEC. He said it was a core plank of 347 00:21:29,320 --> 00:21:32,360 the Conservative 1970 election manifesto. 348 00:21:32,800 --> 00:21:36,800 He said the PLP did not even mention Caricom in their 2025 349 00:21:36,800 --> 00:21:43,320 electoral electoral platform. So I kind of replied and said 350 00:21:43,320 --> 00:21:46,720 that the Caricom plan was unveiled sometime before the 351 00:21:46,720 --> 00:21:49,880 election. It was actually in 2023, in that 352 00:21:49,880 --> 00:21:52,520 year's throne speech. It then became government policy 353 00:21:52,520 --> 00:21:56,840 and remained government policy until past the election. 354 00:21:57,800 --> 00:22:00,280 He said the throne speech committed only to have 355 00:22:00,280 --> 00:22:03,640 consultation. Now this is this is the crucial 356 00:22:03,640 --> 00:22:05,560 bit I think as far as I'm concerned. 357 00:22:05,920 --> 00:22:08,360 And I went back and looked at the group at that friend's 358 00:22:08,360 --> 00:22:10,360 piece. And he said the vision of former 359 00:22:10,360 --> 00:22:13,520 Premier the on Dame Jennifer Smith was the Bermuda to 360 00:22:13,520 --> 00:22:16,600 strengthen the historic, familial and cultural ties to 361 00:22:16,600 --> 00:22:19,240 the Caribbean. This year marks the 20th 362 00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:22,040 anniversary of Bermuda's entry into CARICOM as an associate 363 00:22:22,040 --> 00:22:25,000 member. In this anniversary year the 364 00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:28,120 Government will renew the vision of Dame Jennifer and this is the 365 00:22:28,120 --> 00:22:32,040 key bit, initiating consultation process leading to full 366 00:22:32,120 --> 00:22:36,120 membership of CARICOM. So he came back and this was 367 00:22:36,120 --> 00:22:39,320 quite a, this is quite a lengthy conversation as you can tell. 368 00:22:40,480 --> 00:22:42,720 He said they are committing to a consultation. 369 00:22:43,240 --> 00:22:46,800 There will then be a proposal informed by that consultation 370 00:22:47,280 --> 00:22:50,080 and they've taken democracy seriously or to be approved 371 00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:54,080 either by a referendum or being part of the electoral platform. 372 00:22:55,320 --> 00:22:58,000 That's an interesting point, isn't it? 373 00:22:58,360 --> 00:23:02,960 I mean, the BLBS been quite consistent since the 2000s that 374 00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:07,640 they want full membership of CARICOM and even what the throne 375 00:23:07,640 --> 00:23:10,880 speech, if I, if I remember what you just said, a consultation 376 00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:14,200 leading to full membership. So it was clear that the 377 00:23:14,200 --> 00:23:17,400 government policy is to move to full membership, but that we do 378 00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:21,640 a consultation as a process. And then after the consultation 379 00:23:21,760 --> 00:23:27,360 move to full membership. So are we conflating the two 380 00:23:27,360 --> 00:23:30,080 here? Are we just, is this just now a 381 00:23:30,080 --> 00:23:33,520 consultation which may then lead to full membership? 382 00:23:33,520 --> 00:23:35,640 We carry on. Or has the government gone 383 00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:38,640 further now beyond the 2023 throne speech? 384 00:23:39,560 --> 00:23:42,440 And so we are definitely going to be members or going to go for 385 00:23:42,440 --> 00:23:44,800 membership. It's a it's a moot point. 386 00:23:44,840 --> 00:23:46,720 You know, it's, it's semantics, isn't it? 387 00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:50,640 But initiating A consultation process leading to the full 388 00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:54,320 membership of in CARICOM could easily be assumed to be two 389 00:23:54,320 --> 00:23:57,240 different steps. And therefore those those Peter 390 00:23:57,240 --> 00:24:01,200 Sansom have a point that something like CARICOM should be 391 00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:04,800 an electoral platform. To me, I would just go back to 392 00:24:04,800 --> 00:24:09,480 the 2001 when when they initiated the decision to move 393 00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:12,720 from observer status to associate member. 394 00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:15,680 I believe that was a Thorn speech commitment for a 395 00:24:15,680 --> 00:24:18,080 consultation. I don't believe it was in the 396 00:24:18,080 --> 00:24:24,560 1998 election platform of the PLPI don't even have access to 397 00:24:24,560 --> 00:24:28,320 that right now. So to me it's the same then 398 00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:32,720 Parliament is fine, however, and using your European Economic 399 00:24:32,720 --> 00:24:37,160 Community EEC system. So when the UK joined, that was 400 00:24:37,160 --> 00:24:43,160 in, I want to say in 1972, they joined with two other countries 401 00:24:43,160 --> 00:24:46,160 whose names I cannot remember right now, but there was a 402 00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:48,840 fourth country that also was looking to join. 403 00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:53,280 That was the only country that was Norway that held a 404 00:24:53,280 --> 00:24:57,000 referendum on the issue. They they voted against joining 405 00:24:57,000 --> 00:25:00,400 the European PEC, but the other countries all did it through a 406 00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:02,640 parliamentary act. So. 407 00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:06,680 I think the the point people are arguing is whether they should 408 00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:11,680 or should not be a referendum. I don't think it's required. 409 00:25:12,120 --> 00:25:15,680 I don't know if people. Demand it then fine, but I don't 410 00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:18,120 think it's necessary. I don't think it's necessary, 411 00:25:18,120 --> 00:25:20,960 but I think there is a proviso. You and I both agree I don't 412 00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:23,960 think it's necessary for a for a referendum and get that. 413 00:25:24,400 --> 00:25:28,520 But there is a proviso. And I think as Peter Sanderson 414 00:25:28,520 --> 00:25:32,440 pointed out, there were a lot of green papers and white papers, a 415 00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:35,800 lot of consultation, a lot of discussion that the MPs in the 416 00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:41,200 UK at the time were able to use. I think that before we get 417 00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:44,000 anywhere near a discussion or debate or a vote in the House, 418 00:25:44,280 --> 00:25:47,400 we've got to have those green papers and those white papers, 419 00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:49,360 yeah. That means the government 420 00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:53,000 government committed to public consultation that hasn't even 421 00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:54,840 started yet. Well, it hasn't been. 422 00:25:54,840 --> 00:25:58,560 We don't quite know why. I mean, we're assuming and this 423 00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:02,640 was the case several months ago, I think we're assuming still 424 00:26:02,760 --> 00:26:05,960 that the terms of the agreement are still not being delivered by 425 00:26:05,960 --> 00:26:11,200 CARICOM. You know, my experience in 426 00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:13,640 government is that things take time. 427 00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:17,600 Civil service is not. And this is no, no attack on the 428 00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:19,360 civil service. You want things to be done 429 00:26:20,800 --> 00:26:22,680 carefully. You don't want to rush into 430 00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:25,800 things. It's going to take some time. 431 00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:29,160 I would imagine that we would see the public consultation on 432 00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:32,640 this probably launched in January or February. 433 00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:35,640 I think it's going to dominate 2026 along with the absentee 434 00:26:35,640 --> 00:26:39,280 voting. Well, I think, I think this will 435 00:26:39,280 --> 00:26:44,120 be the dominant discussion through 2026 that and who the 436 00:26:44,120 --> 00:26:45,960 new leader of the PLP is going to be. 437 00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:47,880 Yeah. Those are the the three things 438 00:26:47,880 --> 00:26:50,440 for next year. Well, that and CIT and what it's 439 00:26:50,520 --> 00:26:52,960 incorporating tax and what that means for the budget. 440 00:26:54,120 --> 00:26:57,440 Well, we haven't digressed, but we're going to get a budget 441 00:26:57,440 --> 00:26:59,360 update. Well, we've seen one or not. 442 00:26:59,920 --> 00:27:04,760 Anyway, we digressed. I, I think referendum is moot. 443 00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:08,240 The Green and White Paper and proper discussion and 444 00:27:08,240 --> 00:27:11,480 transparency over the terms of agreement is absolutely crucial. 445 00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:16,600 We vote MPs into power. I think the original idea of an 446 00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:18,960 MP, Jonathan, and you'll know, I think your point is better than 447 00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:22,800 me, is the community. The idea became that a community 448 00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:26,600 wanted representation so they would pick the person that they 449 00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:28,200 thought could represent them best. 450 00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:31,120 So that carried on, that principle carried on. 451 00:27:31,120 --> 00:27:34,080 If we pick these people because we think they can represent us 452 00:27:34,080 --> 00:27:38,240 in the best way, decision like this is made for them is for 453 00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:42,200 them to make on the proviso that I just mentioned, without that, 454 00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:43,960 then there should be a referendum. 455 00:27:45,120 --> 00:27:49,400 I mean, I also think there's a lot of, I mean, and again, this 456 00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:52,680 is where the public consultation will probably dispel some of the 457 00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:54,960 myths about CARICOM and what it is. 458 00:27:55,400 --> 00:27:57,960 I mean, to me, it's not that much different from Bermuda 459 00:27:57,960 --> 00:27:59,480 joining the World Health Organization. 460 00:28:00,120 --> 00:28:04,280 You know, it's just a, an organization, it's a membership 461 00:28:04,280 --> 00:28:06,360 body. I It's not like it's a political 462 00:28:06,360 --> 00:28:08,920 union at the moment. I personally would support a 463 00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:12,000 political political union and the Caribbean Federation, but 464 00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:14,680 that is not what the CARICOM is. Well, you'd have a political 465 00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:16,240 union with Cuba if you had your way. 466 00:28:16,240 --> 00:28:18,120 Wouldn't you? They're part of the Caribbean. 467 00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:22,080 So yeah, Caribbean Federation. I don't think you can have a 468 00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:24,280 proper Caribbean federation without all the Caribbean 469 00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:25,240 islands. I agree. 470 00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:26,760 I was pulling your leg, comrade. Yeah. 471 00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:29,720 I am wearing red. I know the listeners can't see 472 00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:31,240 that, but. Yeah, yeah. 473 00:28:31,480 --> 00:28:33,080 There are a couple of things here actually, you know, but we 474 00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:35,680 don't know. Again, filling this information 475 00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:41,080 vacuum, we know the UK gave a letter of entrustment allowing 476 00:28:41,080 --> 00:28:44,160 negotiations to start with no idea how this might affect 477 00:28:44,160 --> 00:28:45,840 foreign policy. And for listeners that don't 478 00:28:45,840 --> 00:28:50,200 know, they cannot have a foreign policy because strictly speaking 479 00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:53,920 it is part of the UK and has to abide by UK foreign policy. 480 00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:57,960 And I would imagine if if there's an opt out clause that 481 00:28:57,960 --> 00:29:00,080 would have to be used because I can't believe the government 482 00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:04,080 would allow economy a dependent territory to have his own 483 00:29:04,280 --> 00:29:07,240 foreign affairs policy. Yeah. 484 00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:10,560 So the I have two big questions about CARICOM that I would like 485 00:29:10,560 --> 00:29:13,120 to have answered. One of them is the cost of a 486 00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:16,160 membership fee and the other one is on foreign policy. 487 00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:19,240 We do have the letter from entrustment as you mentioned. 488 00:29:19,240 --> 00:29:24,000 I think that was provided either in 2023 or 2024. 489 00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:27,520 We don't. I haven't had sight off the 490 00:29:27,520 --> 00:29:30,520 actual letter from trust but I've only seen like government 491 00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:34,560 statements and about what it is. I looked for it, I couldn't find 492 00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:37,440 it anywhere. And all I can see is that the UK 493 00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:44,680 has given Bermuda the right to proceed with moving to full 494 00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:48,760 membership of CARICOM. So my interpretation of that is 495 00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:53,280 that foreign policy would still be controlled by the UK, but 496 00:29:53,280 --> 00:29:58,720 they would devolve foreign policy as it relates to CARICOM 497 00:29:58,760 --> 00:30:01,480 issues. But I don't know how that's 498 00:30:01,480 --> 00:30:03,960 really going to play out, especially as we're seeing 499 00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:05,760 what's happening in the Caribbean right now. 500 00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:09,600 We have America with their war of aggression going on and 501 00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:12,480 they're dividing CARICOM. We got Trinidad at the moment. 502 00:30:12,480 --> 00:30:15,480 And I think the Dominican Republic has just allowed 503 00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:19,920 military troops as well. So is Britain going to be 504 00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:22,920 willing for Bermuda to get involved in that, in the 505 00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:27,760 potential friction between CARICOM and the United States? 506 00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:30,120 Does Britain does? Is there going to, are they 507 00:30:30,120 --> 00:30:34,160 going to risk their special relationship with the US on 508 00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:35,440 that? I don't know. 509 00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:38,640 I think the answer to that will be no, they won't risk it. 510 00:30:39,240 --> 00:30:41,880 But then how can we have full membership of CARICOM? 511 00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:43,720 This is this. Is a big question to answer, 512 00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:45,400 isn't it? I, I can't believe, I mean I 513 00:30:45,400 --> 00:30:48,440 don't think it'll ever happen, but I can't believe that the UK 514 00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:53,120 would let the government here issue or sign an anti Trump 515 00:30:53,760 --> 00:31:01,040 statement and. Maybe they maybe we'll have the 516 00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:04,720 right to foreign policy on all issues except when the UK 517 00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:06,160 disagrees. I don't, I don't know. 518 00:31:07,520 --> 00:31:09,320 UK will have the veto every single time. 519 00:31:09,520 --> 00:31:11,680 Right. I, I really, I don't know. 520 00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:15,760 As far as I'm aware, there are no colonies that are members of 521 00:31:15,760 --> 00:31:17,880 CARICOM. They're all independent states. 522 00:31:18,320 --> 00:31:20,640 There. Are associate members like 523 00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:26,360 Bermuda came in and a few others but they are which are colonies 524 00:31:26,360 --> 00:31:28,440 but they're only associate. Yeah. 525 00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:31,160 Full membership, I think Bermuda would be the first one if we do 526 00:31:31,160 --> 00:31:34,520 join, then probably came in and Turks and Caicos and a couple 527 00:31:34,520 --> 00:31:36,280 others will also try to follow our lead. 528 00:31:36,360 --> 00:31:38,960 I imagine so, yeah. We're probably watching with 529 00:31:38,960 --> 00:31:40,600 great interest. Yeah. 530 00:31:41,120 --> 00:31:44,880 So that's the big question for me is how's the whole foreign 531 00:31:44,880 --> 00:31:47,080 policy thing going to work? I don't know. 532 00:31:47,320 --> 00:31:49,880 And again, we won't know until we see these terms of agreement 533 00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:51,960 and then get the British view on it. 534 00:31:52,040 --> 00:31:53,800 It's so frustrating. You said the wheels of 535 00:31:53,800 --> 00:31:57,400 government turn slowly. I, I, they do, I agree. 536 00:31:58,040 --> 00:32:00,880 But the problem is it creates this information vacuum and then 537 00:32:00,880 --> 00:32:02,880 we get all these kind of debates, all which are 538 00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:07,360 misinformed, a lot of them or. The fact that I see so many 539 00:32:07,360 --> 00:32:10,880 people who are so 100% against CARICOM membership. 540 00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:13,480 Without. Any information that to me tells 541 00:32:13,480 --> 00:32:17,080 me their position is not based on an informed position, it's 542 00:32:17,080 --> 00:32:19,400 just based on a prejudice against CARICOM. 543 00:32:20,040 --> 00:32:22,920 I don't think any emotional position one way or the other, 544 00:32:22,920 --> 00:32:24,520 right? Now I agree, I think most of the 545 00:32:24,520 --> 00:32:27,880 Brexit Brexiteers were basing their votes on emotion. 546 00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:32,560 Yeah, and emotion can be good. Emotion can inform, but it has 547 00:32:32,560 --> 00:32:35,200 to be balanced with evidence at the same time. 548 00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:37,200 And. I think you know my last point 549 00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:38,960 to make here. I mean, I would say this, I'm 550 00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:42,200 slightly biased because I'm kind of in this business as well, but 551 00:32:42,200 --> 00:32:46,120 we government spent a fortune hiring an overseas US PR company 552 00:32:46,120 --> 00:32:51,640 to explain CARICOM amongst other things and they don't yeah to. 553 00:32:51,640 --> 00:32:54,000 Explain CARICOM. It was a bunch of things. 554 00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:57,640 It was to help with PR and things like dangerous dogs, the 555 00:32:57,640 --> 00:33:00,360 blue economy, CARICOM, and a couple of other things. 556 00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:05,120 OK. Yeah, and here we are discussing 557 00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:10,880 an information vacuum. The the other question is 558 00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:14,120 membership fees. Right now we pay, I want to say 559 00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:17,520 about 1/4 of a million a year as an associate member. 560 00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:21,080 I said it's probably more like 227,000 but. 561 00:33:21,080 --> 00:33:21,960 Something like that. Yeah. 562 00:33:22,120 --> 00:33:25,240 Yeah, it is. The I I've been looking on 563 00:33:25,600 --> 00:33:27,560 various sites. I've been trying to find the 564 00:33:27,560 --> 00:33:32,120 actual formula by which full membership fees are calculated. 565 00:33:32,520 --> 00:33:35,800 I cannot find it anywhere. I can tell you what the 566 00:33:36,520 --> 00:33:41,880 countries do pay and it seems to be a some sort of formula 567 00:33:41,880 --> 00:33:47,680 between population and your GDP, but the exact weighting between 568 00:33:47,680 --> 00:33:50,840 those two and how the exact thing is calculated, I don't 569 00:33:50,840 --> 00:33:56,640 know. We do have a relatively high 570 00:33:56,640 --> 00:34:00,280 GDP, but we also have a very small population. 571 00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:04,440 So comparisons with Barbados and Bahamas are difficult. 572 00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:08,800 Their GDP is similar to ours, but their population is much 573 00:34:08,800 --> 00:34:10,600 bigger. I want to say Bahamas is about 574 00:34:10,920 --> 00:34:14,400 1/4 of a million people and Barbados, I want to say is about 575 00:34:14,400 --> 00:34:19,920 300,000 people, whereas we are what, 65,000 people? 576 00:34:20,639 --> 00:34:23,639 So my guess would be that our membership fee would be 577 00:34:23,639 --> 00:34:29,760 somewhere between 750,000 a year and 1.5 million a year. 578 00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:32,719 Barbados pays about 1.5 for example. 579 00:34:32,840 --> 00:34:35,440 Membership fees are a bit moved. It depends what you get for your 580 00:34:35,440 --> 00:34:38,159 membership. Yeah. 581 00:34:38,239 --> 00:34:40,040 I mean, there are benefits now, one? 582 00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:42,639 .5 million could be really good value for money. 583 00:34:43,159 --> 00:34:45,639 Yeah, I know. There's also becoming a full 584 00:34:45,639 --> 00:34:50,360 members means you sign up to all 240 articles of the Treaty of 585 00:34:50,840 --> 00:34:53,239 I'm going to mispronounce it Shagwa Lama. 586 00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:56,239 You are good I I would have mispronounced it as well, so 587 00:34:56,280 --> 00:34:58,320 don't. It. 588 00:34:58,840 --> 00:35:01,080 Except you can opt out of freedom of movement. 589 00:35:01,560 --> 00:35:03,040 Yeah. Well, I mean, that's not 590 00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:05,440 necessarily that's, I don't think that's actually an article 591 00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:09,000 in the treaty. That's like a CARICOM policy. 592 00:35:09,360 --> 00:35:13,800 And not all of the 240 articles are going to be directly 593 00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:16,920 relevant to Bermuda. Something like 30 or 40 of them 594 00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:21,640 are specifically on agriculture. We do have agriculture here, so 595 00:35:21,640 --> 00:35:25,240 it will have an effect, but we don't have like big banana 596 00:35:25,240 --> 00:35:28,800 plantations or as agriculturally dependent as some of the other 597 00:35:29,120 --> 00:35:33,520 islands are. One key thing is you're not 598 00:35:33,520 --> 00:35:37,080 supposed to have custom duties per SE on goods produced by 599 00:35:37,080 --> 00:35:39,960 other CARICOM countries. I don't think we import a lot 600 00:35:39,960 --> 00:35:44,040 from CARICOM as is, but maybe this would encourage us to 601 00:35:44,280 --> 00:35:48,080 import more from CARICOM so. If I were the. 602 00:35:48,080 --> 00:35:50,920 Government. I would do a discussion paper 603 00:35:51,120 --> 00:35:54,560 looking at every 240 articles and say how is this going to 604 00:35:54,560 --> 00:35:58,520 apply to Bermuda? This won't, this might and maybe 605 00:35:58,520 --> 00:36:01,280 you could do a cost benefit analysis, I don't know. 606 00:36:01,440 --> 00:36:03,600 So I don't know but. It probably should be because 607 00:36:03,600 --> 00:36:06,200 people will read that like you and ask those questions. 608 00:36:06,480 --> 00:36:07,760 Do you? Where did you find that, 609 00:36:07,760 --> 00:36:09,400 Jonathan? Was that just a simple Google? 610 00:36:09,400 --> 00:36:13,880 Search it's on Caricom's website. 611 00:36:14,160 --> 00:36:16,440 It's on Caricom's website. OK, we haven't. 612 00:36:16,560 --> 00:36:19,640 We are going to get a newsletter one day and what we do, we'll 613 00:36:19,640 --> 00:36:21,920 put the information like that in it. 614 00:36:21,920 --> 00:36:25,120 But at the moment, if you're just going to have to Google and 615 00:36:25,400 --> 00:36:28,800 and find out, I mean, it's a good .240 articles, some, some 616 00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:31,000 won't need discussing because they won't be relevant to 617 00:36:31,000 --> 00:36:34,120 Bibilia quite obviously. But you're right, it comes back 618 00:36:34,120 --> 00:36:37,160 again that there's got to have this green paper, you've got to 619 00:36:37,160 --> 00:36:41,120 have public consultation, so. And even on the treaty, it does 620 00:36:41,120 --> 00:36:44,440 talk about employing CARICOM workers. 621 00:36:44,440 --> 00:36:46,360 In other CARICOM states. It does. 622 00:36:46,760 --> 00:36:50,000 But you're allowed to set like I want to say they use like the 623 00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:53,480 term quotas or something. You can have exceptions, but you 624 00:36:53,480 --> 00:36:58,040 are still supposed to treat them more preferentially than non 625 00:36:58,040 --> 00:37:01,560 CARICOM. But that doesn't mean that we're 626 00:37:01,560 --> 00:37:03,280 gonna be flooded by CARICOM workers. 627 00:37:03,280 --> 00:37:07,880 It just means that in the work permit process the CARICOM 628 00:37:07,880 --> 00:37:11,680 worker is gonna be slightly more at an advantage than a non 629 00:37:11,680 --> 00:37:13,960 CARICOM citizen. That's all. 630 00:37:14,880 --> 00:37:18,240 I mean, we already have a kind of a gradiated system of 631 00:37:18,240 --> 00:37:21,360 Vermedians at the top spouses or Vermedians are slightly below 632 00:37:21,360 --> 00:37:26,080 that PRC and then people from overseas. 633 00:37:26,240 --> 00:37:29,480 So it just adds another layer of, OK, well, it's a CARICOM 634 00:37:29,480 --> 00:37:32,920 person, let's wait that into it. We go to the top of the key. 635 00:37:33,400 --> 00:37:35,440 Yeah. Or under a spouse, under a 636 00:37:35,440 --> 00:37:38,480 Vermedian. Now I do think there's as we, as 637 00:37:38,480 --> 00:37:41,240 I've noted, there's a lot of prejudice against the Caribbean 638 00:37:41,240 --> 00:37:46,040 and Bermuda, not universal, it's in certain segments. 639 00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:49,680 And no, no amount of public information campaign or 640 00:37:49,680 --> 00:37:53,320 consultation is gonna dispel some of that prejudice. 641 00:37:53,560 --> 00:37:55,680 That's the nature of prejudice. It's irrational. 642 00:37:55,960 --> 00:38:00,360 It's just there. But an information campaign will 643 00:38:00,760 --> 00:38:04,840 reduce the ability of non prejudice people. 644 00:38:05,240 --> 00:38:09,320 So that's what you're saying. In an information vacuum, the 645 00:38:09,320 --> 00:38:13,840 latter's voices carry the the the mob, I guess you could say. 646 00:38:15,920 --> 00:38:19,040 But an information campaign will reduce the ability for those 647 00:38:19,040 --> 00:38:22,760 prejudice voices to dominate. Totally agree, totally agree, 648 00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:25,640 and it's going to happen. And I think it will. 649 00:38:26,160 --> 00:38:27,120 I think it will. I hope so. 650 00:38:27,480 --> 00:38:29,400 Otherwise it's could be, well not. 651 00:38:30,080 --> 00:38:33,400 I think a lot is going to depend, isn't it on I'll I'll 652 00:38:33,440 --> 00:38:36,880 rephrase that will a lot depend on who the new leader of the PLP 653 00:38:36,880 --> 00:38:39,720 is. Well, there might be an argument 654 00:38:39,720 --> 00:38:44,520 that the Premier wants to get this done before he leaves as 655 00:38:44,520 --> 00:38:46,880 part of his legacy. His legacy I. 656 00:38:47,080 --> 00:38:50,800 Kind of suspect that's one reason why the PLP is pushing 657 00:38:50,800 --> 00:38:54,160 heavily on the electoral reform as well as a bit of a legacy 658 00:38:54,160 --> 00:38:57,880 thing because a new leader may not think that that is such a 659 00:38:58,720 --> 00:39:02,640 such an important thing to focus on, including CARICOM. 660 00:39:03,040 --> 00:39:06,160 I think the legacy thing might be a good, good point actually, 661 00:39:06,160 --> 00:39:08,120 Jonathan, I wonderful fevers speed it up. 662 00:39:09,160 --> 00:39:11,520 Yeah. And push before next October. 663 00:39:12,920 --> 00:39:14,280 It's going to be an interesting year. 664 00:39:14,680 --> 00:39:17,520 We should have a lot of information to talk about on 665 00:39:17,520 --> 00:39:18,200 the. Podcast. 666 00:39:18,440 --> 00:39:19,720 You know what? Caricom fuck. 667 00:39:20,080 --> 00:39:22,480 I I just, I just said deliberately, it's going to be 668 00:39:22,480 --> 00:39:25,480 an interesting year. Yeah, because I wanted to go 669 00:39:25,480 --> 00:39:30,080 back to we started this podcast. It's actually more interesting 670 00:39:30,080 --> 00:39:33,960 than people realise. So we are going to have an 671 00:39:33,960 --> 00:39:37,120 interesting podcast next year. We are because we're going to be 672 00:39:37,160 --> 00:39:39,320 more interesting. Well, coming up to the 673 00:39:39,320 --> 00:39:42,920 anniversary of the podcast, I think it was January this year 674 00:39:42,920 --> 00:39:46,400 that you and Michael Fay started it. 675 00:39:46,440 --> 00:39:48,240 Yep. It was around about January the 676 00:39:48,240 --> 00:39:50,000 20th. We've got to think of what to do 677 00:39:50,000 --> 00:39:53,880 for our first birthday. Yeah I I joined after the 678 00:39:53,880 --> 00:39:58,920 election when Michael Fay was no longer able to to sit as a Co 679 00:39:58,920 --> 00:40:00,360 host. Well, maybe. 680 00:40:00,400 --> 00:40:02,320 Maybe we get him and you together. 681 00:40:02,680 --> 00:40:05,160 That'll be interesting. Yeah, we can do a whole birthday 682 00:40:05,160 --> 00:40:07,200 celebration. We can wear funny hats. 683 00:40:07,200 --> 00:40:10,040 Have some. Definitely not on video though. 684 00:40:10,040 --> 00:40:13,440 No, that's true. That is absolutely for sure. 685 00:40:14,080 --> 00:40:16,720 This will be our last podcast I think before Christmas. 686 00:40:16,840 --> 00:40:23,000 I'm heading off to the UK for a holiday to see my mum and going 687 00:40:23,000 --> 00:40:24,800 to stay on for a couple of months over there. 688 00:40:25,520 --> 00:40:29,880 We will be back though, very early in the new year when we'll 689 00:40:29,880 --> 00:40:34,600 be doing our end of year review, which are our favorite podcasts, 690 00:40:35,040 --> 00:40:37,360 our favorite interviews, our best interviews. 691 00:40:37,640 --> 00:40:41,720 Just recapping on all those and getting our crystal ball out, 692 00:40:43,040 --> 00:40:46,200 see what we think is going to be the most interesting aspects of 693 00:40:46,240 --> 00:40:48,880 2026. So I think we've given the game 694 00:40:48,880 --> 00:40:52,280 away a little bit on that one. We'll have to think of something 695 00:40:52,280 --> 00:40:55,800 new. So just from me personally, I 696 00:40:55,800 --> 00:40:57,960 hope you all have a wonderful holiday. 697 00:40:58,440 --> 00:41:00,080 I hope you all get what you want. 698 00:41:00,280 --> 00:41:03,040 I hope the New Year's fantastic for everybody. 699 00:41:03,040 --> 00:41:05,640 And thank you very much for listening to us, Jonathan. 700 00:41:06,160 --> 00:41:10,840 Yeah, I'm, I'm going to copy everything you just said. 701 00:41:10,840 --> 00:41:14,800 Happy holidays to everyone and it's certainly been a year and 702 00:41:14,840 --> 00:41:17,040 hopefully 2026 is better for everyone. 703 00:41:17,480 --> 00:41:19,880 As good as this year it may have been, let's hope that next 704 00:41:19,880 --> 00:41:21,760 year's even better. Hear, hear to that. 705 00:41:22,600 --> 00:41:26,400 Have a great holiday. Goodbye The News Navigators with 706 00:41:26,400 --> 00:41:29,880 Jeremy Deacon and Jonathan Starling distilling and 707 00:41:29,880 --> 00:41:32,000 discussing the issues of the day. 708 00:41:32,480 --> 00:41:35,800 We help Bermuda navigate the news.