1 00:00:00,840 --> 00:00:04,200 Welcome to the News Navigators with me, Jeremy Deacon. 2 00:00:04,680 --> 00:00:09,440 And me, Jonathan Starling. We're doing a podcast special 3 00:00:10,280 --> 00:00:15,160 today, this evening for me, this afternoon for Jonathan because 4 00:00:15,160 --> 00:00:18,160 of the extraordinary news today. Jonathan, do you want to recap 5 00:00:18,160 --> 00:00:20,400 for our listeners and viewers? Sure. 6 00:00:21,440 --> 00:00:25,120 Dumpster fire, basically. That's polite. 7 00:00:28,200 --> 00:00:31,120 One thing I, I just want to preface this to say that our 8 00:00:31,120 --> 00:00:34,480 system of government depends on having a strong opposition. 9 00:00:36,080 --> 00:00:40,280 And so the fact that we've seen this kind of chaos going on with 10 00:00:40,280 --> 00:00:44,680 the opposition party today, well, the last 48 hours is a, 11 00:00:44,920 --> 00:00:48,160 you know, it's problematic. So just to recap, so that 12 00:00:48,160 --> 00:00:50,840 listeners I just. Recap Yeah, there's a lot to 13 00:00:50,880 --> 00:00:55,360 unpack. There is so basically Jeremy 14 00:00:55,360 --> 00:00:58,600 Richardson was the opposition leader and leader of the Oba. 15 00:00:58,600 --> 00:01:04,720 He he told us that he was going to step down. 16 00:01:05,400 --> 00:01:09,120 That was in late July, early August last year. 17 00:01:10,280 --> 00:01:13,440 And then of course, there was a leadership election for the 1 18 00:01:13,440 --> 00:01:18,360 Bermuda Alliance, the Oba, which was held, I forget the exact 19 00:01:18,360 --> 00:01:20,440 date, but it was like the first week of September it. 20 00:01:20,640 --> 00:01:22,760 Was about 6 months ago. Yeah. 21 00:01:23,760 --> 00:01:29,640 And in that there were two candidates for leader. 22 00:01:29,640 --> 00:01:33,880 You had Ben Smith, who at that time was the deputy leader of 23 00:01:33,880 --> 00:01:36,000 the. Who was also the favorite to 24 00:01:36,080 --> 00:01:37,120 win? Yep. 25 00:01:37,960 --> 00:01:43,200 And then you had Robert King, who was a relatively relative 26 00:01:43,200 --> 00:01:47,620 political newcomer. He had just become an MP in a by 27 00:01:47,620 --> 00:01:52,080 election and I want to say May 2024, and then he won his 28 00:01:52,080 --> 00:01:56,000 constituency seat again in the general election in February 29 00:01:56,000 --> 00:02:02,440 2025 and Robert King ended up pulling it off. 30 00:02:02,440 --> 00:02:08,160 He won with the victory, with the votes or support of the Oba 31 00:02:08,240 --> 00:02:11,920 membership, as I understand it. It was predominantly, I think at 32 00:02:11,920 --> 00:02:16,080 the time it was quite clear that the majority of MPs did not vote 33 00:02:16,080 --> 00:02:17,560 for him. That's right. 34 00:02:17,560 --> 00:02:21,920 I mean, several of them had come out prior publicly supporting 35 00:02:22,720 --> 00:02:24,360 Ben Smith. It's never been. 36 00:02:24,720 --> 00:02:28,040 They don't reveal the count, but I think it's taken as granted 37 00:02:28,040 --> 00:02:31,400 now that the MPs did not vote for him or the majority didn't 38 00:02:31,400 --> 00:02:36,120 vote for him. And, you know, the he had a bit 39 00:02:36,120 --> 00:02:39,760 of a rocky start. It was noticeable after the the 40 00:02:39,760 --> 00:02:43,800 victory that the defeated candidate, Ben Smith didn't, you 41 00:02:43,800 --> 00:02:46,600 know, shake his hand. He wasn't prominent and saying, 42 00:02:46,960 --> 00:02:48,320 you know. Good luck, speeches. 43 00:02:48,640 --> 00:02:51,760 Exactly. It was just Robert King and 44 00:02:51,800 --> 00:02:54,920 Scott Pearman who won the deputy leadership. 45 00:02:56,160 --> 00:02:59,800 Now the way the Oba does their competitions, they didn't have 46 00:02:59,800 --> 00:03:03,240 like an official ticket, but there was seem to be like an 47 00:03:03,240 --> 00:03:06,680 informal ticket that it was a Ben Smith and Scott Pearman 48 00:03:07,720 --> 00:03:10,840 ticket on one hand and Robert King and Michael Fay on the 49 00:03:10,840 --> 00:03:13,680 other hand. So it ended up kind of being a 50 00:03:13,680 --> 00:03:20,080 split result as I understood it from outside where Robert King 51 00:03:20,080 --> 00:03:23,120 won the leadership with Scott Pearman won the deputy 52 00:03:23,120 --> 00:03:27,560 leadership. And, you know, there was a we, 53 00:03:27,560 --> 00:03:30,360 we interviewed what we talked about, this probably was in 54 00:03:30,360 --> 00:03:33,520 November last year, interviewed Robert King. 55 00:03:33,600 --> 00:03:37,840 Yeah, there was an attempted palace coup against Robert King 56 00:03:37,840 --> 00:03:41,840 at the time. We'd heard that he had soon 57 00:03:41,840 --> 00:03:46,080 after the election been asked to resign as leader and we did put 58 00:03:46,080 --> 00:03:50,520 that to him and at first didn't really answer the question. 59 00:03:50,720 --> 00:03:56,600 Second attempt, he said no. I personally think we were right 60 00:03:56,920 --> 00:03:58,360 that I was. I think so A. 61 00:03:58,360 --> 00:04:01,880 Coup attempt and Robert King would have had to have said that 62 00:04:02,800 --> 00:04:06,960 so so soon into his stint as as leader. 63 00:04:07,680 --> 00:04:10,480 But I think these rumblings are culminated today, have been 64 00:04:10,480 --> 00:04:13,760 going on since the day of the election leadership election. 65 00:04:14,240 --> 00:04:17,920 Yes, and it's what I would call a palace coup. 66 00:04:17,920 --> 00:04:22,040 A palace coup means like it was, you know, the MPs are the ones 67 00:04:22,040 --> 00:04:25,760 who kicked him. It was the courtiers, it was the 68 00:04:25,760 --> 00:04:27,880 Dukes and everybody. Yeah, yeah. 69 00:04:27,880 --> 00:04:29,120 Which is what? Which is what. 70 00:04:29,520 --> 00:04:33,040 It came to a light yesterday that there was a challenge and 71 00:04:33,040 --> 00:04:34,880 today that challenge was successful. 72 00:04:34,880 --> 00:04:38,960 And it was successful because the Oba used the Bermuda 73 00:04:38,960 --> 00:04:45,120 Constitution, which said if 2/3 of opposition MPs or MPs didn't 74 00:04:45,120 --> 00:04:48,280 like their leader, they could petition the Governor and the 75 00:04:48,280 --> 00:04:51,840 Governor would have no choice but to replace the leader, the 76 00:04:51,840 --> 00:04:57,200 sitting leader, with a choice of leader from the MPs. 77 00:04:57,200 --> 00:04:59,080 In which case it was this was Ben Smith. 78 00:04:59,600 --> 00:05:03,640 Yeah, and it's interesting, the clash between the Bermuda 79 00:05:03,640 --> 00:05:05,800 Constitution and the party. Constitution. 80 00:05:05,840 --> 00:05:07,400 Well, this is the crux of it, isn't it? 81 00:05:07,400 --> 00:05:08,560 Yeah. Yeah. 82 00:05:08,920 --> 00:05:13,440 I think Jonathan, if you, if you want to explain, but I think go 83 00:05:13,440 --> 00:05:14,840 ahead and explain. Yeah, absolutely. 84 00:05:14,840 --> 00:05:18,760 Because he's created such a mess here, because it's quite clear 85 00:05:19,040 --> 00:05:22,800 as of speaking now as of recording this, and it is close 86 00:05:22,800 --> 00:05:26,760 to 9:00 PM Bermuda time that Robert King has not resigned. 87 00:05:28,120 --> 00:05:29,880 It's 5:00 PM, you're talking UK time. 88 00:05:30,200 --> 00:05:33,040 I'm talking, oh man, these split shifts are killing me. 89 00:05:33,480 --> 00:05:36,000 But anyway, my point is it's quite clear as of recording 90 00:05:36,000 --> 00:05:37,880 this, Robert King has not resigned. 91 00:05:38,160 --> 00:05:40,640 So yeah, this constitutional matter is interesting. 92 00:05:41,320 --> 00:05:43,640 Yeah. So as it stands, as I understand 93 00:05:43,640 --> 00:05:48,880 it and I, I have the OB as constitution here it is on their 94 00:05:48,880 --> 00:05:52,920 website. I I got that wrong Privacy that 95 00:05:52,920 --> 00:05:54,680 actually. Got into trouble for that. 96 00:05:54,840 --> 00:05:57,960 I did indeed. I couldn't find it, but I have 97 00:05:57,960 --> 00:06:00,680 subsequently found it. I'm sure Doctor Coot will be 98 00:06:00,680 --> 00:06:02,720 very happy to hear you say it's on the website. 99 00:06:04,080 --> 00:06:08,120 This one's for you, Doug. We digress. 100 00:06:09,360 --> 00:06:13,880 So yeah, as as I understand it, Mr. King is still the leader of 101 00:06:13,880 --> 00:06:16,880 the 1 Bermuda Alliance. He's the leader of the party. 102 00:06:17,400 --> 00:06:20,640 Until such time with this, there's a new membership or a 103 00:06:20,640 --> 00:06:23,640 new special election to elect a new leader. 104 00:06:25,120 --> 00:06:27,120 Not quite. I think now the way it's being 105 00:06:27,120 --> 00:06:31,400 described to me is that it's, I think paragraph 6V. 106 00:06:31,840 --> 00:06:34,280 That's right. So it's 2/3 of OBAMPS pass a 107 00:06:34,280 --> 00:06:36,520 voter. No confidence in the Oba leader 108 00:06:36,880 --> 00:06:39,640 has to be endorsed by the Oba caucus. 109 00:06:39,920 --> 00:06:44,520 Yes. Now that caucus is made-up of 110 00:06:45,560 --> 00:06:50,280 the executive, OBAMPSOBA senators, regional chairs, 111 00:06:50,600 --> 00:06:53,280 adopted candidates and approved candidates. 112 00:06:53,720 --> 00:06:58,000 So if that caucus then endorses this voter, no confidence. 113 00:06:58,440 --> 00:07:01,560 It'll be up to the Oba members then to elect an Oba leader by 114 00:07:01,560 --> 00:07:04,880 secret ballot. That's right as I understand it. 115 00:07:05,480 --> 00:07:10,760 So I'm not sure at that stage, does Robert King have to step, 116 00:07:10,760 --> 00:07:15,040 step down as party leader or do they have to wait to a vote? 117 00:07:15,560 --> 00:07:19,400 Regardless, you've got this bizarre mix at the moment where 118 00:07:19,400 --> 00:07:23,440 Ben Smith is the leader of the opposition but he's not the 119 00:07:23,440 --> 00:07:26,800 leader of the party. Yeah, and, and the way the OB as 120 00:07:26,800 --> 00:07:29,480 constitution is written, it makes clear that the leader of 121 00:07:29,480 --> 00:07:33,280 the Oba should be the opposition leader or the premier, depending 122 00:07:33,280 --> 00:07:35,680 on their seats in the. House it does so. 123 00:07:36,120 --> 00:07:39,800 It's not a constitutional crisis from the Bermuda Constitution, 124 00:07:39,800 --> 00:07:42,560 but it is a constitutional crisis for the Oba. 125 00:07:43,000 --> 00:07:46,200 At the moment, yeah. And I, and I've been speaking to 126 00:07:46,200 --> 00:07:50,520 a lot of people today, and the feeling is that what's happened 127 00:07:50,520 --> 00:07:55,640 today is unlawful because he reaches the Oba Constitution. 128 00:07:55,640 --> 00:07:58,000 Because it's the Oba constitution, but it's unlawful 129 00:07:58,440 --> 00:08:00,160 within their constitution. Thank you. 130 00:08:00,160 --> 00:08:04,120 Sorry, yeah, it's not a criminal thing I should state before 131 00:08:04,120 --> 00:08:08,280 somebody sues me. I mean, I, I did speak to a few 132 00:08:08,600 --> 00:08:11,560 Oba friends that I have, I spoke to them throughout the day, 133 00:08:11,560 --> 00:08:16,040 couple in person, some by WhatsApp and you know, they're, 134 00:08:16,040 --> 00:08:20,160 they're members and they are unhappy about this development. 135 00:08:21,280 --> 00:08:25,760 They voted for King or, or at least they indicate to me that, 136 00:08:25,760 --> 00:08:29,480 you know, we're members. They, they said we members voted 137 00:08:29,480 --> 00:08:33,640 for King and this is a slap in the face to US members. 138 00:08:34,039 --> 00:08:37,120 So I'm not, I don't know if they themselves voted for King, but 139 00:08:37,120 --> 00:08:40,480 the membership voted for king. And you know, you could have a 140 00:08:40,520 --> 00:08:44,480 bizarre situation where you have a new leadership election and 141 00:08:44,480 --> 00:08:47,560 King gets re elected by the members and then it's like a 142 00:08:47,560 --> 00:08:51,880 circular thing 'cause then. I I believe, having talked to a 143 00:08:51,880 --> 00:08:56,680 few people, I believe that Robert King needs endorsement of 144 00:08:56,680 --> 00:08:59,640 three MPs. If he wants to run as a leader, 145 00:08:59,640 --> 00:09:04,560 I believe that is the case. Now it turns out the 9 MPs voted 146 00:09:04,560 --> 00:09:06,600 against him, so it seems unlikely. 147 00:09:06,960 --> 00:09:11,760 How many people went along with the flow because they felt it 148 00:09:11,760 --> 00:09:14,440 was the right thing to do or they had to do it is another 149 00:09:14,440 --> 00:09:16,600 matter. And whether they might endorse 150 00:09:16,600 --> 00:09:19,800 him is another matter as well. But the crux of what we got to 151 00:09:19,800 --> 00:09:24,000 here is an unholy mess. Dumpster fire. 152 00:09:24,760 --> 00:09:28,720 That the OB as got itself into the members have been sidelined. 153 00:09:29,000 --> 00:09:32,120 It's the OB as we had to deceive you moment in a sense. 154 00:09:32,120 --> 00:09:36,320 Oh, it's that times 10 though. Yeah, at least with that then 155 00:09:36,320 --> 00:09:40,520 Jennifer, who was a victim of it, had been premier for 2-3 156 00:09:40,520 --> 00:09:42,840 years, hadn't she? This is. 157 00:09:42,840 --> 00:09:46,400 Since 98, yeah. OK, so this is a coup after six 158 00:09:46,400 --> 00:09:48,080 months. Yeah. 159 00:09:48,360 --> 00:09:52,920 And we, I mean, I, as far as I know, those leading the coup 160 00:09:52,920 --> 00:09:56,640 have not given a reason. I, I, I, I have heard that they 161 00:09:56,640 --> 00:09:58,080 didn't like his leadership style. 162 00:09:58,080 --> 00:10:01,560 And that's very subjective. Yeah, but also, what did you not 163 00:10:01,560 --> 00:10:02,720 like about it? I don't know. 164 00:10:02,720 --> 00:10:05,680 Some people were aghast that he he stepped up, had the temerity 165 00:10:05,680 --> 00:10:09,360 to step up, that he was not in line because he was a newbie. 166 00:10:10,160 --> 00:10:12,480 Yeah, no, if that's true and I and I don't know, that's 167 00:10:12,520 --> 00:10:15,400 unbelievable that that just plays into the PL. 168 00:10:15,400 --> 00:10:18,840 BS hands as being like the 40 thieves pulling the pulling the 169 00:10:19,200 --> 00:10:21,240 strings behind the scenes. Well, I mean, that's the 170 00:10:21,240 --> 00:10:25,320 narrative that the PLP has always tried to frame the Oba as 171 00:10:25,320 --> 00:10:29,440 the EBP continuity, and this completely plays to that 172 00:10:29,440 --> 00:10:30,640 argument. So yeah. 173 00:10:30,760 --> 00:10:34,240 Potentially if, if, if my conjecture having talked to 174 00:10:34,240 --> 00:10:37,520 people is true, I don't know. But it's the problem is this 175 00:10:37,520 --> 00:10:40,040 conjecture is going to, is going to carry on and on and on. 176 00:10:40,280 --> 00:10:43,080 Now how the party is going to heal itself, especially at the 177 00:10:43,080 --> 00:10:47,120 moment when it's got 2 leaders and the party membership is 178 00:10:47,120 --> 00:10:50,840 being sidelined again, the Oba doesn't release it's results. 179 00:10:50,840 --> 00:10:53,600 So we don't know how close the result was, whether there was 180 00:10:53,600 --> 00:10:57,240 like 10 votes in it or whatever. And we don't know how many votes 181 00:10:57,240 --> 00:10:59,680 were cast, if I remember rightly so. 182 00:10:59,840 --> 00:11:05,080 But nonetheless, democratically elected leader has been deposed 183 00:11:05,160 --> 00:11:10,600 in a coup, leaving 2 leaders of the party at the moment, one the 184 00:11:10,600 --> 00:11:13,160 political in the house and one of the party itself. 185 00:11:13,440 --> 00:11:17,320 It's an unbelievable mess and it just doesn't seem to have been 186 00:11:17,320 --> 00:11:19,920 thought through. Yeah, I mean it. 187 00:11:19,920 --> 00:11:23,400 It's. I don't really know what to say. 188 00:11:24,280 --> 00:11:27,640 No, I know. I mean the I'm in the UK and I 189 00:11:27,640 --> 00:11:30,400 keep picking up all these UK phrases again and it's 190 00:11:30,400 --> 00:11:33,480 gobsmacking. Yeah, I mean. 191 00:11:33,760 --> 00:11:37,480 It's an unholy mess that's been handled in an unholy bad way. 192 00:11:37,920 --> 00:11:42,240 I mean, I certainly look forward to speaking having on the 193 00:11:42,240 --> 00:11:45,440 podcast representative from the Oba it. 194 00:11:46,800 --> 00:11:49,080 Was too. Wasn't possible to organize it 195 00:11:49,080 --> 00:11:51,440 for right now. This is like a reaction to this 196 00:11:51,560 --> 00:11:56,480 kind of breaking news thing. So I mean, hopefully we get Ben 197 00:11:56,480 --> 00:12:00,760 Smith or someone on on the podcast eventually to kind of 198 00:12:00,760 --> 00:12:04,040 give their side of it. At the moment, all they're 199 00:12:04,040 --> 00:12:07,280 saying is we didn't think his leadership was good enough, but 200 00:12:07,800 --> 00:12:09,120 what was wrong with his leadership? 201 00:12:09,320 --> 00:12:11,600 No one saying. I mean, he voted for that, you 202 00:12:11,600 --> 00:12:13,840 know what he was like, You know, he's fairly competitive in the 203 00:12:13,840 --> 00:12:16,440 House. Yeah, he'd been an MP long 204 00:12:16,440 --> 00:12:18,920 enough, the member, but the members voted for him. 205 00:12:19,640 --> 00:12:21,920 And the question is now what next? 206 00:12:21,920 --> 00:12:25,080 OK, so they'll have this call because it may be tomorrow, 207 00:12:25,080 --> 00:12:28,480 which would be Thursday or it may be Saturday. 208 00:12:28,480 --> 00:12:32,160 I'm hearing different dates. OK, so all the relevant people 209 00:12:32,160 --> 00:12:35,400 get together and they vote Robert King out. 210 00:12:36,560 --> 00:12:42,040 One scenario, obviously. How can the party heal in in the 211 00:12:42,040 --> 00:12:47,360 eyes of the electorate? Yeah, I mean, this is Oba's 212 00:12:47,360 --> 00:12:49,640 constitution talks about a disciplinary committee. 213 00:12:50,120 --> 00:12:53,880 This is what the actions of these MPs would seem to have 214 00:12:54,360 --> 00:12:59,280 fall afoul of discipline, but I can't see them expelling. 215 00:12:59,320 --> 00:13:02,880 Themselves now, how can it, how can it make itself a viable 216 00:13:02,880 --> 00:13:06,640 opposition, the government in waiting when there's behaviour 217 00:13:06,640 --> 00:13:10,680 like this, especially when we could be seeing an election in 218 00:13:10,680 --> 00:13:12,880 the next year. Obviously David Burt steps down 219 00:13:12,880 --> 00:13:15,520 on October as leader of the PLP and Premier. 220 00:13:15,520 --> 00:13:17,920 They're not going to get their act together in time. 221 00:13:18,120 --> 00:13:22,160 This is something that the PLP is going to bring up time and 222 00:13:22,160 --> 00:13:25,960 time and time again. Do you know if the Premier, 223 00:13:26,000 --> 00:13:28,960 David Burt one or two just for laughs, he could call a snap 224 00:13:28,960 --> 00:13:31,920 election right now? Well, he's got bags of CIT 225 00:13:31,920 --> 00:13:34,000 money. He could do a giveaway budget 226 00:13:34,000 --> 00:13:35,440 and call one in April. Yeah. 227 00:13:35,680 --> 00:13:38,400 Yeah, I mean, think about the legacy for consecutive 228 00:13:38,400 --> 00:13:41,520 landslides. And probably another huge 229 00:13:41,520 --> 00:13:44,600 majority because he's going to trust the Oba after this. 230 00:13:44,720 --> 00:13:46,680 You know how? How can you? 231 00:13:46,800 --> 00:13:50,560 How can you ignore the members like this and override them? 232 00:13:51,120 --> 00:13:56,680 I mean, I'm, I'm sure that when an election comes, most of the 233 00:13:56,680 --> 00:13:59,720 Oba voters will probably rally around the Oba. 234 00:14:00,280 --> 00:14:03,080 But the main problem for the Oba is going to be the swing voters. 235 00:14:03,080 --> 00:14:07,360 And the Oba depends on swing voters to win elections, to 236 00:14:07,360 --> 00:14:10,480 become the government. And at the moment, swing voters 237 00:14:10,480 --> 00:14:12,520 are. Just interrupt it. 238 00:14:12,520 --> 00:14:15,520 It hasn't managed to mobilize all its own supporters either in 239 00:14:15,520 --> 00:14:16,480 the last. Two, it hasn't. 240 00:14:16,480 --> 00:14:19,160 No, they've been fractured. The swing voters are important. 241 00:14:20,240 --> 00:14:23,080 I mean, all this, if I was the FTM, I'd be rubbing my hands 242 00:14:23,080 --> 00:14:25,800 right now that the FTM is the third political party of 243 00:14:25,800 --> 00:14:27,360 Bermuda, the Free Democratic Movement. 244 00:14:27,840 --> 00:14:31,200 You also have the People's Independent Campaign, which is 245 00:14:31,760 --> 00:14:34,960 was trying to form like another third party as well. 246 00:14:34,960 --> 00:14:37,320 I haven't heard much from them since. 247 00:14:37,320 --> 00:14:40,280 But I mean, the opportunity is there for those parties to kind 248 00:14:40,280 --> 00:14:45,840 of seize it in a sense at least come the next election. 249 00:14:45,840 --> 00:14:49,120 I mean, swing voters going to be like, we can't trust the OVA. 250 00:14:49,440 --> 00:14:51,320 Let's give these guys a chance, you know well. 251 00:14:51,320 --> 00:14:56,840 I think to do that then both of those groups need to start being 252 00:14:57,120 --> 00:15:01,840 more noticed now of a of a of a greater public face that a that 253 00:15:01,840 --> 00:15:03,880 a media presence which they haven't done. 254 00:15:03,880 --> 00:15:07,120 So I'm not I'm not convinced about that second you'd. 255 00:15:07,120 --> 00:15:10,640 Also need a fracture. You know just how the UBP 256 00:15:10,720 --> 00:15:14,640 fractured between the UBP and the BDA, The Bermuda Democratic 257 00:15:14,640 --> 00:15:20,240 Alliance be more forming the Oba and leaving Kim Swan as like the 258 00:15:20,240 --> 00:15:23,520 only member of the UVP. Poor guy, I remember the awful 259 00:15:23,520 --> 00:15:24,960 picture. Of him, yeah. 260 00:15:25,360 --> 00:15:27,960 I mean you could end up with Robert King as the leader of the 261 00:15:27,960 --> 00:15:32,480 1 Bermuda Alliance still, but like a leader of one it's 262 00:15:32,480 --> 00:15:34,680 possible. Robert King is the leader of the 263 00:15:34,800 --> 00:15:36,520 Bermuda Democratic Alliance again. 264 00:15:36,920 --> 00:15:40,320 Yeah, you know. Well, it's an interesting one 265 00:15:40,320 --> 00:15:42,320 because he's going to have to swallow a bit of pill and he's 266 00:15:42,320 --> 00:15:44,080 going to be sitting there on the back benches. 267 00:15:45,760 --> 00:15:49,840 One interesting thing. And so once there's an election, 268 00:15:49,840 --> 00:15:53,880 even if you don't necessarily agree with the result, often 269 00:15:53,880 --> 00:15:57,360 people like to, you know, you're supposed to rally around the 270 00:15:57,360 --> 00:15:59,080 leader and try to help them to be best. 271 00:16:00,960 --> 00:16:05,560 There's a, there's a saying here, which I want to quote is a 272 00:16:05,840 --> 00:16:09,440 quote about leadership. And it says as a leader, you 273 00:16:09,440 --> 00:16:13,080 have an incredible opportunity to change someone's life every 274 00:16:13,080 --> 00:16:15,560 single day. Leadership is never about 275 00:16:15,560 --> 00:16:18,320 tearing people down. It's about helping people become 276 00:16:18,320 --> 00:16:21,120 the very best version of themselves. 277 00:16:22,120 --> 00:16:24,720 And that's a quote from Ben Smith, actually. 278 00:16:25,400 --> 00:16:26,760 Oh, well. It's a quote that Ben Smith 279 00:16:26,760 --> 00:16:28,720 himself has shared on social media. 280 00:16:28,760 --> 00:16:30,280 Interesting. And. 281 00:16:31,160 --> 00:16:35,120 Complying with that is he. From the outside it doesn't seem 282 00:16:35,120 --> 00:16:39,600 like he did because, you know, as we said, after the election 283 00:16:39,600 --> 00:16:42,080 of Robert King, Ben Smith was nowhere to be seen. 284 00:16:42,080 --> 00:16:45,240 He wrote a couple op eds, but he was not, he didn't come out 285 00:16:45,400 --> 00:16:50,640 after the lead, after the election to, to, to shake hands 286 00:16:50,640 --> 00:16:56,320 with Robert King. And it it seems as if there's 287 00:16:56,320 --> 00:17:00,840 been scheming for several months now, almost immediately since 288 00:17:01,400 --> 00:17:03,600 Robert King's election. So yeah, there's going to be 289 00:17:03,600 --> 00:17:06,119 massive trust issues. Massive trust issues. 290 00:17:06,119 --> 00:17:09,920 I mean, we know there's been scheming because we are between 291 00:17:09,920 --> 00:17:13,319 US 100% sure that he was asked to resign quite soon after the 292 00:17:13,319 --> 00:17:15,760 election as leader. So there's been scheming going 293 00:17:15,760 --> 00:17:18,839 on there and we did a podcast about it and we talked about the 294 00:17:18,839 --> 00:17:22,440 rifts going on there because both of us had heard about rifts 295 00:17:22,720 --> 00:17:25,920 after that leadership election. The dust has not settled. 296 00:17:26,280 --> 00:17:31,160 Jonathan, the second scenario, OK, so again, if we talk about 297 00:17:32,760 --> 00:17:36,680 the Oba caucus meeting to endorse a vote of no confidence, 298 00:17:36,680 --> 00:17:41,720 suppose it doesn't suppose the elect the the the adopted 299 00:17:41,720 --> 00:17:45,560 candidates, approved candidates, regional chairs, senators don't 300 00:17:45,560 --> 00:17:49,080 like it, then the then the party's stuck. 301 00:17:50,760 --> 00:17:53,120 Yeah, well, I mean, you bring up senators. 302 00:17:53,120 --> 00:17:55,840 So with the new opposition leader, the Senate, the 303 00:17:55,880 --> 00:17:58,680 opposition senators are appointed by the opposition 304 00:17:58,680 --> 00:18:00,120 leader. Yes. 305 00:18:00,280 --> 00:18:02,400 Not by the Oba leader. No. 306 00:18:02,840 --> 00:18:07,320 So you're going to see some change on the senators. 307 00:18:07,320 --> 00:18:11,600 Probably tomorrow morning. Yeah, although as I understand 308 00:18:11,600 --> 00:18:13,960 from the Oba Constitution, and this is where the the 309 00:18:13,960 --> 00:18:17,080 constitutional clash has happened, the Oba leaders 310 00:18:17,080 --> 00:18:19,160 supposed to be the one that appoints the senators. 311 00:18:19,600 --> 00:18:24,840 But again, that's the clash between that and the Bermuda 312 00:18:26,160 --> 00:18:28,920 Constitution, right, Right. So. 313 00:18:29,840 --> 00:18:31,960 I just want to, I want to read this again. 314 00:18:32,120 --> 00:18:34,840 I want to read this again. So this is what I've been told. 315 00:18:35,320 --> 00:18:39,960 So if the Oba caucus endorses the vote of no confidence that 316 00:18:39,960 --> 00:18:43,960 it would be up to the Oba members to elect the Oba leader 317 00:18:44,280 --> 00:18:48,520 by secret ballot pursuant to Article 3.4 of the OPA 318 00:18:48,760 --> 00:18:53,320 Constitution, That's the vote. Until this process is complete, 319 00:18:53,720 --> 00:18:56,400 any attempt to replace Robert King as Leader of the Opposition 320 00:18:56,400 --> 00:19:00,200 is contrary to the Oba Constitution and risks 321 00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:02,560 embroiling the Crown. The Crown. 322 00:19:02,560 --> 00:19:06,960 I'm not sure what that means by that in an unceremonious coup by 323 00:19:06,960 --> 00:19:11,760 MPs who who are subverting the Oba members of election. 324 00:19:12,560 --> 00:19:14,320 Well, that's what we just saw, so. 325 00:19:15,080 --> 00:19:17,560 But again, I wanted to read it though because it's a bit 326 00:19:17,720 --> 00:19:21,440 unclear. Does Robert King stay as party 327 00:19:21,440 --> 00:19:26,000 leader and do an election? Yeah, it's a bit. 328 00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:27,880 Unclear. I don't know if you need to 329 00:19:27,920 --> 00:19:31,440 clarify that. I'm reading Article 6.1 of the 330 00:19:31,440 --> 00:19:34,920 Oba constitution. Article 6 is the Oba leader. 331 00:19:35,440 --> 00:19:40,960 It says that the Oba leader will appoint an Oba whip, recommend 332 00:19:40,960 --> 00:19:44,400 senators for appointment by the governor and may appoint a House 333 00:19:44,400 --> 00:19:46,960 leader. And the Oba leader will also 334 00:19:46,960 --> 00:19:49,000 appoint ministers or shadow ministers. 335 00:19:49,600 --> 00:19:53,240 So. So how's this going to work? 336 00:19:53,440 --> 00:19:55,960 According to their constitution, Robert King is still the one 337 00:19:58,160 --> 00:20:01,440 setting out the shadow cabinet, but obviously the opposition 338 00:20:01,440 --> 00:20:03,760 leader is going to set up his own shadow cabinet. 339 00:20:04,680 --> 00:20:08,800 I mean, I mean, in some ways it's moot because if nine of the 340 00:20:09,280 --> 00:20:12,680 MPs voted Kick King, they're not going to listen to what he says 341 00:20:12,680 --> 00:20:15,400 anyway. It is moot, I agree, but it 342 00:20:15,400 --> 00:20:18,040 just. Shows a constitutional mess. 343 00:20:18,240 --> 00:20:21,080 But it it shows the the depths of the mess they've got 344 00:20:21,080 --> 00:20:24,400 themselves into. I mean, we last had these kind 345 00:20:24,400 --> 00:20:28,440 of discussions when the PLP was in power over that, the 2003 346 00:20:28,440 --> 00:20:33,440 crisis, after the 2003 election, which you referred to, when the 347 00:20:33,440 --> 00:20:36,520 group around Doctor Brown tried to do a palace coup against 348 00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:40,360 Jennifer Smith. It was semi successful in that 349 00:20:40,440 --> 00:20:43,360 Jennifer Smith's continued leadership was untenable, but 350 00:20:43,360 --> 00:20:47,560 there wasn't enough support to endorse the coup leaders either, 351 00:20:47,600 --> 00:20:52,160 which is how you got a kind of a compromise candidate of Premier 352 00:20:52,160 --> 00:20:54,520 Alex Scott, who I actually thought was a really good 353 00:20:55,120 --> 00:20:58,680 premier despite having come to it as a compromise. 354 00:20:59,880 --> 00:21:02,120 Now, the PLP did take some time to heal from that. 355 00:21:02,120 --> 00:21:06,440 There were still, you know, talks about Brownites and we 356 00:21:06,440 --> 00:21:12,160 still saw this kind of instability in the PLP for years 357 00:21:12,400 --> 00:21:15,720 after that because the PLP constitution was breached. 358 00:21:16,040 --> 00:21:18,680 It left a very deep scar within the PLP. 359 00:21:19,520 --> 00:21:22,760 They've eventually healed themselves and getting back into 360 00:21:22,760 --> 00:21:25,960 power in 2017 certainly helps with the healing. 361 00:21:28,520 --> 00:21:30,440 But yeah, I think you've got a point. 362 00:21:30,640 --> 00:21:33,520 OB as got a very rocky time ahead. 363 00:21:33,920 --> 00:21:36,240 I think you've got a point. It goes back when she said over 364 00:21:36,240 --> 00:21:39,520 and over again that this has happened against the wishes of 365 00:21:39,520 --> 00:21:41,720 the members, the majority of the members. 366 00:21:42,160 --> 00:21:44,000 And yeah, that's going to take a long time. 367 00:21:44,000 --> 00:21:47,560 The whiplash from that could be quite severe at an election. 368 00:21:47,680 --> 00:21:52,280 They're not going to come out. I mean, I'm not an Oba member, 369 00:21:52,280 --> 00:21:54,000 I'm not an Oba supporter. So you. 370 00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:56,840 Know me neither either just. Being upfront about that. 371 00:21:56,840 --> 00:22:00,280 But if I was an Oba member, I would have, I wouldn't trust 372 00:22:00,280 --> 00:22:02,000 what had happened. I would have a lot of heated 373 00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:04,080 words that. Would be really upset. 374 00:22:04,080 --> 00:22:05,880 Yeah, that would be really upset. 375 00:22:06,160 --> 00:22:08,680 And I've seen a few comments about people leaving the party 376 00:22:08,680 --> 00:22:12,600 and withdrawing the membership. And I, you know, say that with a 377 00:22:12,600 --> 00:22:14,360 pinch of salt because it's, I don't know if they're the real 378 00:22:14,360 --> 00:22:17,760 people when they come to comment on the R GS, on the R GS story, 379 00:22:17,760 --> 00:22:21,440 but there's clearly a sentiment out there that this, this hasn't 380 00:22:21,440 --> 00:22:24,440 gone down well. The, the other thing is, you 381 00:22:24,440 --> 00:22:28,120 know, I mean, we touched briefly that Robert King's going to be 382 00:22:28,120 --> 00:22:32,280 sitting on the back benches. Presumably they're not going to 383 00:22:32,280 --> 00:22:34,720 give him a portfolio, even though they've only got 11 MPs. 384 00:22:34,720 --> 00:22:36,680 He's going to be sitting on the backbench. 385 00:22:36,680 --> 00:22:41,080 He's easy, easy prey for the premier who's so good at this 386 00:22:41,080 --> 00:22:44,680 kind of thing to again ask will the real leader of the of the 387 00:22:44,680 --> 00:22:48,200 Oba stand up? You know he's going to do it. 388 00:22:48,200 --> 00:22:50,960 He did it with Michael Dunkley was there and and Jerry and 389 00:22:50,960 --> 00:22:53,200 Richardson. Will the real leader of the Oba 390 00:22:53,400 --> 00:22:55,360 please stand up. He's going to he's going to 391 00:22:55,360 --> 00:22:59,720 absolutely milk it. But Rodney King, he could be a 392 00:22:59,720 --> 00:23:03,320 bit of a loose cannon for them now, depending on how he feels. 393 00:23:03,320 --> 00:23:05,400 I. Mean I I wouldn't even blame him 394 00:23:05,520 --> 00:23:09,040 if he decides to step down and leave politics all together. 395 00:23:09,040 --> 00:23:11,840 And then you have a by election, which adds to another headache 396 00:23:11,840 --> 00:23:14,120 for the Oba. I mean. 397 00:23:14,480 --> 00:23:16,880 He might want to stay there and be a loose cannon. 398 00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:22,720 He could join the PLP because he might agree with the PLP 399 00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:24,320 narrative. I mean, we saw that's how the 400 00:23:24,320 --> 00:23:28,880 PLP got Kim Swan and Wayne Fabric, former leader of the 401 00:23:28,880 --> 00:23:33,240 EBP, because they came out and said, yeah, I was not respected 402 00:23:33,240 --> 00:23:35,320 by my party. I was being used. 403 00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:37,880 And once they were done with me, they spat me out. 404 00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:45,000 So we could see how being joined the PLPI mean that would be 405 00:23:45,040 --> 00:23:47,600 bizarre. Well, I don't think it would be 406 00:23:47,600 --> 00:23:50,360 that bizarre and I think I think the ramifications is are going 407 00:23:50,360 --> 00:23:53,680 to play out for quite some time. Just just one other point I 408 00:23:53,680 --> 00:23:56,560 wanted to make. If you include John Barrett, who 409 00:23:56,560 --> 00:24:03,480 was an interim leader back in May 2011, Ben Smith is the 11th 410 00:24:03,480 --> 00:24:06,920 leader of the Oba since May 2011. 411 00:24:07,800 --> 00:24:14,280 That's 11 in do my mas 15 years. I mean, the Oba is the Oba has 412 00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:16,600 been unstable almost since inception. 413 00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:21,120 I mean, you had their first, not their first leader, because that 414 00:24:21,120 --> 00:24:25,160 was John Barrett, but their first real leader, Craig 415 00:24:25,160 --> 00:24:28,600 Cannoneer. He had to, you know, step down 416 00:24:28,600 --> 00:24:32,960 in a relative disgrace and you had Michael Dunkley took over 417 00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:39,720 from him and of course he lost. The UVP trappings as well, yeah, 418 00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:41,160 you know, difficult to avoid that. 419 00:24:42,560 --> 00:24:45,480 Yeah, and then of course, he lost the 2017 election, which 420 00:24:45,480 --> 00:24:48,000 kicked off a new round of instability. 421 00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:51,920 I actually forget who took over. It was Patricia Gordon Pamplin, 422 00:24:51,920 --> 00:24:54,520 another interim. Leader interim right, and then 423 00:24:54,520 --> 00:24:57,760 Craig Pannier came back for. The 2012 election, it was Jean 424 00:24:57,760 --> 00:24:59,360 Atherton. Right. 425 00:24:59,920 --> 00:25:02,080 And Betty was Craig Cannanier, who came back. 426 00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:04,240 Right. And Ken and EAR was their leader 427 00:25:04,240 --> 00:25:06,400 for the 2020 election. I believe that. 428 00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:08,320 Disastrous one Down to six seats, yeah. 429 00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:13,800 And then it was right. And then Jerian. 430 00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:18,880 And then it was Robert King and now Ben Smith. 431 00:25:19,480 --> 00:25:25,800 It's, it's jealous, isn't it? Yeah, it doesn't doesn't give a 432 00:25:25,800 --> 00:25:27,920 lot of confidence in their abilities. 433 00:25:28,360 --> 00:25:31,360 And I think you mentioned earlier, the opposition party in 434 00:25:31,360 --> 00:25:34,160 our system is supposed to be the government in waiting. 435 00:25:34,160 --> 00:25:35,880 They're supposed to show that they can govern. 436 00:25:36,200 --> 00:25:39,200 If they cannot govern themselves, how can they govern 437 00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:40,880 the country? That's going to be the narrative 438 00:25:40,880 --> 00:25:42,600 the PLP is going to put out there and. 439 00:25:43,040 --> 00:25:45,240 And, and it's a perfectly good narrative to put out there. 440 00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:47,600 And it'd be difficult to disagree with when you have that 441 00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:51,320 many leaders. It's smacks of instability, long 442 00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:54,000 term instability in the party itself. 443 00:25:54,640 --> 00:25:59,080 Yeah. They've created one big mess. 444 00:25:59,160 --> 00:26:02,720 I'm really looking forward to seeing how this plays out 445 00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:05,360 because I think it's going to keep us in a lot of podcasts. 446 00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:09,520 Yeah, well, if they if they want to come under our podcast, they 447 00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:12,160 may not want to after. I don't like us, Jonathan. 448 00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:15,480 Critical comments. The Oba doesn't like us. 449 00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:17,040 Well, that's what I've been told. 450 00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:20,560 I don't know how many don't like us, but we're not their favorite 451 00:26:20,560 --> 00:26:22,760 people because we're criticizing them. 452 00:26:22,760 --> 00:26:25,160 But the reason we're criticizing them is because they do things 453 00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:26,760 like this. Yeah, if you don't want to be 454 00:26:26,760 --> 00:26:29,000 criticized, don't do stuff to be criticized for. 455 00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:33,400 I know. I mean, politics 101 isn't it? 456 00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:37,680 Communications 101. Well, the communications is an 457 00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:41,360 interesting thing because of course Ben Smith was the deputy 458 00:26:41,360 --> 00:26:46,200 leader for the Oba for the 2025 election and I understand he was 459 00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:47,800 heavily involved in the campaign. 460 00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:51,520 Yeah. And, you know, not just us, but 461 00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:55,480 other people had said they were critical of the communications, 462 00:26:55,480 --> 00:26:59,440 the election campaign communications, and that in some 463 00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:02,920 ways contributed to Robert King being elected. 464 00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:07,240 I think a lot of the members, as we saw and as you said, you 465 00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:08,960 know, the RG commentators, how real are they? 466 00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:11,640 We don't know. But a lot of the RGA, lot of 467 00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:14,280 what I'm citing are RG commentators who are Oba 468 00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:17,880 supporters saying they were critical of the election comms 469 00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:20,560 and the the way the Oba handled the election. 470 00:27:20,760 --> 00:27:23,320 They did well. They got a was it an 11 or 10 471 00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:26,200 MPs, which is better than the six that they had before? 472 00:27:27,560 --> 00:27:30,400 They won, they won five seats. They I mean, we saw the document 473 00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:32,800 that suggested they should have won three or four more seats and 474 00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:34,920 part of that was down to the bad comms. 475 00:27:36,520 --> 00:27:38,280 I mean, that was one of many, many documents. 476 00:27:38,280 --> 00:27:41,840 So I don't know how much credence to give that, but I 477 00:27:41,840 --> 00:27:47,320 think talking at comms, you know, I think I saw Ben Smith 478 00:27:47,320 --> 00:27:50,320 acceptance speech. It was very brief, clearly off 479 00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:52,640 the cuff. I thought it was off the cuff. 480 00:27:54,360 --> 00:27:58,680 He, he, he very quickly thanked Robert King for being opposition 481 00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:03,240 leader and moved on. No tributes, nothing else. 482 00:28:04,360 --> 00:28:08,560 To me, as somebody who writes speeches, has heard speeches, 483 00:28:08,560 --> 00:28:12,400 who is involved in comms, I thought that was extraordinarily 484 00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:15,240 brief. He did a little bit more there. 485 00:28:15,720 --> 00:28:17,840 The it's interesting. They're they're pretty much 486 00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:20,800 coming out very strong saying, oh, these are internal matters, 487 00:28:20,800 --> 00:28:22,920 We're not going to discuss them and we're not going to 488 00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:27,040 negatively talk about Robert King, but this whole thing is. 489 00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:30,280 Just negatively talked about Robert King by effectively 490 00:28:30,280 --> 00:28:31,680 sacking him. Yeah. 491 00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:34,320 And saying that his leadership and saying why? 492 00:28:34,320 --> 00:28:36,640 Oh, because his leadership wasn't that's negative talking. 493 00:28:36,840 --> 00:28:38,680 So they're they're double talking right now. 494 00:28:39,040 --> 00:28:42,200 They are, you know, they talk. They say it's internal politics, 495 00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:45,400 internal stuff, but as we both said, these guys have got to 496 00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:47,880 show they're a government in waiting and the lack of 497 00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:52,040 transparency doesn't show that, I'm afraid. 498 00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:54,320 And. I mean, it's quite. 499 00:28:54,400 --> 00:28:57,680 Clear they haven't got their script together on this because 500 00:28:57,680 --> 00:29:01,440 they're not putting out a proper message at all. 501 00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:04,600 Well, I mean, who? Who's even in charge? 502 00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:07,320 I don't know. I have no idea now, but that's 503 00:29:07,320 --> 00:29:08,920 not the point. You could always get somebody in 504 00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:11,600 for a week on a consultancy basis, couldn't you? 505 00:29:12,120 --> 00:29:14,560 And and get it done. It's not hard. 506 00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:19,640 As I said, when at the beginning of this this podcast, I said 507 00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:22,800 that it's very important in our system of government to have a 508 00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:25,960 strong opposition. So even though I am not a 509 00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:31,040 supporter, I do not support the ideology off the OBAI do think 510 00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:34,120 it's valuable to have a strong opposition. 511 00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:39,400 And I do hope that however this mess gets sorted out, that they 512 00:29:39,400 --> 00:29:42,400 do find a way to become a stronger opposition going 513 00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:44,280 forward. Well, you know, they've got a 514 00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:46,840 long road ahead. Putting, putting everything 515 00:29:46,840 --> 00:29:49,400 that's happened yesterday and today aside, Ben Smith is a new 516 00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:52,120 leader. We have to accept that and and 517 00:29:52,120 --> 00:29:54,480 probably will be the leader of the opposition and the leader of 518 00:29:54,480 --> 00:29:56,480 the party. I imagine it'll play out that 519 00:29:56,480 --> 00:29:58,320 way. It'll be really interesting to 520 00:29:58,320 --> 00:30:03,040 see if how or if he shapes the party going forward because you 521 00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:06,920 and I both talked in the past that it's very difficult to know 522 00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:10,440 what they stand for, what their policies are, what their 523 00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:13,960 ideology is. They talk about a broad church. 524 00:30:14,240 --> 00:30:16,880 Well, that's fine. But if everybody's disagreeing 525 00:30:16,880 --> 00:30:19,200 with each other or a few are agreeing with each other and, 526 00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:21,960 and not so much the others, you're not going to spin a 527 00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:25,680 consistent message, are you? And I think that's been a real 528 00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:27,720 problem for the Oba. And it'd be interesting to see 529 00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:30,640 how Ben Smith leads them going forward do. 530 00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:34,280 You think he's capable? Of doing that, what do you 531 00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:35,480 think? What do you think if you could 532 00:30:35,480 --> 00:30:40,280 get a crystal ball? Well, I think they are unlikely 533 00:30:40,280 --> 00:30:44,680 to win the next election. I kind of thought that the the 534 00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:50,880 trends were in their favor to to at least come close to winning 535 00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:54,240 the next election before this whole happen thing happened. 536 00:30:55,280 --> 00:30:58,120 But at the moment, I think that's unlikely unless the PLP 537 00:30:58,120 --> 00:31:02,120 does something really stupid in the next between now and the 538 00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:04,160 next election. But at the moment, I think the 539 00:31:04,640 --> 00:31:07,640 the OBEA will be lucky to hold on to the seats that they have 540 00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:11,680 at the moment. Maybe in the next, next 541 00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:13,720 election, they might be able to recover. 542 00:31:13,720 --> 00:31:16,360 But at the moment, I think they've alienated a lot of the 543 00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:19,360 swing voters. They've alienated a huge chunk 544 00:31:19,360 --> 00:31:21,160 of their own membership by this action. 545 00:31:22,280 --> 00:31:27,840 I think it's going to be very difficult for them to to to win 546 00:31:27,840 --> 00:31:30,120 in the upcoming in the next election as a result. 547 00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:32,960 I agree, they remind me a bit of the Tories and the Conservative 548 00:31:32,960 --> 00:31:37,680 Party here and how they've completely imploded after so 549 00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:42,040 many prime ministers. David Cameron They were doing 550 00:31:42,040 --> 00:31:43,640 all right, but then after. That. 551 00:31:44,120 --> 00:31:45,800 They went into a bit of a death spiral. 552 00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:47,600 They were still in power for some time. 553 00:31:47,600 --> 00:31:51,840 You had Boris Johnson. The lettuce. 554 00:31:52,800 --> 00:31:56,200 Yeah, who was the one before Before the before Liz. 555 00:31:56,200 --> 00:31:58,640 Rishi Sunak, wasn't it? Theresa May. 556 00:31:59,520 --> 00:32:04,000 Theresa May, Sorry, yes. Rishi Sunak took over from Liz 557 00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:05,160 Truss. That's right. 558 00:32:07,120 --> 00:32:10,240 So yeah, I mean, it's, I mean, of course the Oba is the sister 559 00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:14,200 party of the Conservative Party, just like the PLP is the sister 560 00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:16,760 party of the Labour Party. So, you know, maybe they're 561 00:32:16,760 --> 00:32:18,400 following the same directions well. 562 00:32:20,080 --> 00:32:22,440 One managed to keep power for quite a long time, the other 563 00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:29,360 hasn't got anywhere near it. Yeah, one term I don't even 564 00:32:29,360 --> 00:32:32,400 think that they're they're rebranding to the Oba help. 565 00:32:32,400 --> 00:32:34,960 They could have stayed as EVP and probably still have won the 566 00:32:34,960 --> 00:32:37,520 2012 election. I think they should have said 567 00:32:37,520 --> 00:32:39,080 it's Bermuda Democratic Alliance. 568 00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:46,520 Yeah, You know, I just wonder, you know, it's probably, this is 569 00:32:46,520 --> 00:32:49,520 probably a bit too fanciful, a bit too far fetched, but is 570 00:32:49,520 --> 00:32:51,120 there room for the BDA to come back? 571 00:32:51,920 --> 00:32:55,920 There was, because when when they merged, when the EBP merged 572 00:32:55,920 --> 00:32:59,080 with the BDA, there were a lot of disaffected BDA supporters 573 00:32:59,360 --> 00:33:02,800 that just gave up on politics. This is not what they wanted. 574 00:33:02,800 --> 00:33:05,600 They wanted a clean break. I wonder. 575 00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:09,520 I just wonder if, like I said, it's a bit fanciful, but I think 576 00:33:09,520 --> 00:33:12,000 I. Imagine many of the former Any 577 00:33:12,120 --> 00:33:15,360 BDA members that were still hanging in and in the Oba 578 00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:17,760 membership might be wanting to walk away now. 579 00:33:17,760 --> 00:33:20,880 I don't know. I don't think it'll be on the 580 00:33:20,880 --> 00:33:22,160 road. Because I don't have access to 581 00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:26,000 the Oba membership list. But if you can imagine but these 582 00:33:26,000 --> 00:33:28,160 things could happen. It's it's probably a bit 583 00:33:28,160 --> 00:33:32,920 fanciful but I can see the OB as membership going down after 584 00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:36,080 this. Yeah, again, I think that 585 00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:39,480 there's an opportunity here for the third parties to be more 586 00:33:39,480 --> 00:33:43,000 vocal and scoop up some of these membership. 587 00:33:43,320 --> 00:33:44,840 They've got to get their act together then. 588 00:33:45,520 --> 00:33:47,160 Yeah. Because they haven't at the 589 00:33:47,160 --> 00:33:48,040 moment. Not at all. 590 00:33:48,040 --> 00:33:50,600 They they come up at an election, then they disappear 591 00:33:50,600 --> 00:33:54,400 again. The FDM has had a couple opinion 592 00:33:54,400 --> 00:33:58,520 pieces in the paper. Yeah, Prince and Sherlock, who I 593 00:33:58,520 --> 00:34:03,120 believe is their chair, and Omar Dill, I forget what his proper 594 00:34:03,120 --> 00:34:05,840 title is within. The he's, he's a really good 595 00:34:05,840 --> 00:34:07,600 guy. Yeah, I don't know the other 596 00:34:07,600 --> 00:34:09,159 gentleman. I know Omar, he's a really good 597 00:34:09,159 --> 00:34:12,239 guy, but it's not enough. No, it's just an occasional 598 00:34:12,239 --> 00:34:14,159 opinion piece. It's not being in there 599 00:34:14,159 --> 00:34:16,679 responding to things. You have to be there in the 600 00:34:16,679 --> 00:34:18,239 public's face all the time to do it. 601 00:34:18,679 --> 00:34:20,520 Yeah. You know, one thing that is the 602 00:34:20,520 --> 00:34:23,199 one thing that might play for the Oba is a week is a long time 603 00:34:23,199 --> 00:34:27,960 in politics. Voters tend to have a very short 604 00:34:27,960 --> 00:34:32,280 memory and if we have the election a year away, they've 605 00:34:32,280 --> 00:34:35,159 moved on. Ben Smith has asserted himself 606 00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:39,600 and maybe some policies and and and identity. 607 00:34:40,199 --> 00:34:43,360 The PLP won't let people forget, of course, but there is an 608 00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:46,800 opportunity. I definitely think that the new 609 00:34:46,800 --> 00:34:51,080 leadership of the well, I do think that Ben Smith and the MPs 610 00:34:51,080 --> 00:34:56,679 are banking on let people cool down for a week before before 611 00:34:56,679 --> 00:34:59,760 they do like a membership meeting and hope that they can 612 00:34:59,760 --> 00:35:03,080 get their anger out now. Then again, it's going to boil 613 00:35:03,080 --> 00:35:04,840 down to what happens at this caucus. 614 00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:07,560 Yeah. If there's trouble at the 615 00:35:07,560 --> 00:35:09,760 caucus, this could go on for a while. 616 00:35:10,200 --> 00:35:14,360 And if Robert King doesn't play ball and behaves like a a nice 617 00:35:14,360 --> 00:35:19,280 defeated leader and sits on the back benches, it's not going to 618 00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:23,600 die down I. Mean they they did him dirty. 619 00:35:24,080 --> 00:35:27,960 To be frank, the way this all went down if they had an issue 620 00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:31,280 with his leadership, they had ways to trigger a membership 621 00:35:31,280 --> 00:35:34,480 vote a special election. But doing it this way, with 622 00:35:34,480 --> 00:35:36,560 this, I coup going to the governor. 623 00:35:38,720 --> 00:35:41,440 It just looks very, it looks very underhand, doesn't it? 624 00:35:41,840 --> 00:35:48,600 It does, yeah. Ruthless, but not good, not good 625 00:35:48,600 --> 00:35:50,920 team building. No, it's. 626 00:35:52,440 --> 00:35:56,920 A good way to end. I hope you enjoyed listening. 627 00:35:56,920 --> 00:35:59,000 I hope it's cleared things up for you a little bit. 628 00:35:59,400 --> 00:36:00,960 Jonathan. I could say I don't think this 629 00:36:00,960 --> 00:36:02,840 is going to finish. I think we'll hear from the 630 00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:05,760 caucus whether it's tomorrow or Saturday or next week. 631 00:36:06,280 --> 00:36:10,840 And we might well be back doing an emergency podcast again. 632 00:36:12,240 --> 00:36:16,480 In the meantime, Robert King is remains as a party leader, has 633 00:36:16,480 --> 00:36:19,960 power as the party leader. Whether he'll exercise it in the 634 00:36:19,960 --> 00:36:22,480 next 24 hours remains to be seen. 635 00:36:23,680 --> 00:36:26,960 Well, you know, Jeremy, just just earlier this week, I was 636 00:36:26,960 --> 00:36:29,280 saying to you that there's not a lot of juicy news stories for 637 00:36:29,280 --> 00:36:30,320 the podcast. You did. 638 00:36:30,640 --> 00:36:36,200 And now our cup runneth over. He certainly does and we haven't 639 00:36:36,200 --> 00:36:41,680 even talked about the guy from the UK civil service saying 640 00:36:41,680 --> 00:36:43,880 that, you know, a bunch of territories should be 641 00:36:43,880 --> 00:36:47,000 independent. That's for another podcast. 642 00:36:47,480 --> 00:36:52,040 All right mate, on that note, we'll see how many emails I get 643 00:36:52,040 --> 00:36:55,640 or WhatsApp messages I get criticizing us for hating 644 00:36:55,640 --> 00:36:59,360 Beenoba haters again, and I shall respond in exactly the 645 00:36:59,360 --> 00:37:02,680 same way as responded before. Stop giving us the ammunition. 646 00:37:04,600 --> 00:37:07,320 All right mate, take care. Cool, see you.