1 00:00:01,360 --> 00:00:06,080 Welcome to a special episode of The News Navigators with me, 2 00:00:06,080 --> 00:00:08,560 Jeremy Deacon. And me, Jonathan Starling. 3 00:00:10,160 --> 00:00:12,720 We're doing a first for us. We've got five people on. 4 00:00:12,720 --> 00:00:15,840 That's quite exciting and a little bit daunting technology 5 00:00:15,840 --> 00:00:17,480 wise. Me and Jonathan aren't 6 00:00:17,480 --> 00:00:20,600 necessarily the best in that department, but also something 7 00:00:20,600 --> 00:00:26,120 special because with five people on, we wanted to do go go away 8 00:00:26,120 --> 00:00:30,360 from the norm of what we do and have a a round table discussion. 9 00:00:30,800 --> 00:00:34,840 And on this, on this instance, a round table discussion on social 10 00:00:34,840 --> 00:00:40,680 media and whether there should be a ban or more likely a delay 11 00:00:41,560 --> 00:00:45,000 in the age of people getting access to social media. 12 00:00:45,400 --> 00:00:48,720 Now this obviously follows on from what's happening in 13 00:00:48,720 --> 00:00:52,320 Australia, in the Philippines, etcetera, but we wanted to look 14 00:00:52,320 --> 00:00:55,040 in a bit more detail. So joining me is Doctor Sandy De 15 00:00:55,040 --> 00:00:58,960 Silva, who's a Bermuda registered clinical psychologist 16 00:00:59,360 --> 00:01:04,040 and the executive director of Family Centre, Sade Rawlins, 17 00:01:04,080 --> 00:01:08,080 who's a child and adolescent mental health specialist, and 18 00:01:08,080 --> 00:01:11,960 Darren Woods who's a youth overreach manager at the 19 00:01:12,000 --> 00:01:15,800 Ministry of National Security. They're all experts on this 20 00:01:15,800 --> 00:01:20,160 subject, aren't you? So we really, really wanted to 21 00:01:20,160 --> 00:01:22,800 hear your views. As I mentioned, I think 22 00:01:22,800 --> 00:01:24,880 Australia was the first to implement this. 23 00:01:24,880 --> 00:01:28,320 The Philippines followed. In the UK, at the moment, 24 00:01:28,320 --> 00:01:31,320 there's a big discussion on whether this should happen. 25 00:01:31,320 --> 00:01:35,400 I think at the moment their approach tends to focus on the 26 00:01:35,400 --> 00:01:38,000 duties of the platforms themselves to protect children, 27 00:01:38,480 --> 00:01:41,800 such as enforcing age limits. And in the United States, 28 00:01:41,800 --> 00:01:46,560 there's been moves to try and get under 16 restrictions, but I 29 00:01:46,560 --> 00:01:48,480 believe they've been blocked in the courts. 30 00:01:49,680 --> 00:01:53,760 Virginia, I think was one such place where that happened. 31 00:01:54,400 --> 00:01:58,360 But setting the scene a little bit, where do you guys stand on 32 00:01:58,360 --> 00:02:02,600 a social media ban or a delay till you're 16 years old? 33 00:02:03,680 --> 00:02:06,920 Who wants to start standing? Put you on the spot all. 34 00:02:07,760 --> 00:02:12,440 Right. You know, I've, I've thought 35 00:02:12,440 --> 00:02:15,800 long and hard about this, this subject because certainly when 36 00:02:15,800 --> 00:02:19,800 Australia was announcing it, it obviously touches on the work 37 00:02:19,800 --> 00:02:23,120 that we do at Family Center. And then I'm also a mom and an 38 00:02:23,160 --> 00:02:27,440 aunt and a godmother and you know, and so I've thought a lot 39 00:02:27,440 --> 00:02:30,880 about it. And so for me, there's pros and 40 00:02:30,880 --> 00:02:35,680 cons and maybe I'll just kind of hit a couple of them because 41 00:02:35,680 --> 00:02:38,920 certainly I'm sure the whole discussion, you know, it is 42 00:02:38,920 --> 00:02:40,800 going to just cover the of it. I hope it. 43 00:02:41,840 --> 00:02:42,920 Will, Yeah. Yeah. 44 00:02:42,920 --> 00:02:46,120 And certainly we've got Darren and Chardonnay here to to chime 45 00:02:46,120 --> 00:02:51,120 in as well in terms of what you know some of these arguments or 46 00:02:51,120 --> 00:02:54,880 against. So I would say, let me just, I 47 00:02:54,880 --> 00:03:00,480 guess kick it off by saying that my concern about a ban is that 48 00:03:01,000 --> 00:03:05,440 people will use it to replace the other things that. 49 00:03:05,440 --> 00:03:07,280 We're going to have little issues here by the looks of 50 00:03:07,280 --> 00:03:10,920 things, Andy. So you just froze that. 51 00:03:10,920 --> 00:03:13,840 Do you want to just repeat what you said last few seconds? 52 00:03:17,320 --> 00:03:19,680 Just trying to reconnect, is that better? 53 00:03:20,440 --> 00:03:23,840 We can hear you. OK, apologies. 54 00:03:24,960 --> 00:03:27,040 This is what happens when you ask me to go first. 55 00:03:28,600 --> 00:03:33,600 I won't do it again. So what I was saying is, I guess 56 00:03:33,600 --> 00:03:38,360 one of my biggest concerns is that a social media ban, people 57 00:03:38,360 --> 00:03:43,160 may look at it as a way to also then use it to to prevent doing 58 00:03:43,160 --> 00:03:46,680 the other things that we really should be doing, right? 59 00:03:46,680 --> 00:03:53,780 So. We seem to be having a few 60 00:03:53,780 --> 00:03:55,460 technical issues here with Sandy. 61 00:03:56,100 --> 00:03:58,860 We'll wait until a couple of moments till she comes back on. 62 00:03:59,260 --> 00:04:01,560 All right. She's reconnecting technical 63 00:04:01,560 --> 00:04:03,000 problems. Darren, what do you think? 64 00:04:03,000 --> 00:04:04,480 What's your overall view on this? 65 00:04:04,480 --> 00:04:06,560 Sure. I think, I think I'm aligned 66 00:04:06,560 --> 00:04:10,800 with Sandy in in this is that we don't need to look at this as 67 00:04:10,800 --> 00:04:16,000 like a blunt criminal style ban of social media for young 68 00:04:16,000 --> 00:04:18,519 people. I think that like if you look at 69 00:04:18,519 --> 00:04:21,360 the contacts, I think we need to have stronger protection. 70 00:04:21,760 --> 00:04:24,080 We need to have stronger parental control. 71 00:04:24,480 --> 00:04:27,400 We need to have stronger, like you know, Australia and other 72 00:04:27,400 --> 00:04:31,560 places, stronger platform accountability whilst keeping 73 00:04:31,560 --> 00:04:34,840 our young people and potentially keeping our young people safe. 74 00:04:35,240 --> 00:04:38,560 So I think that the correct system of it, even potentially 75 00:04:38,560 --> 00:04:44,480 putting a ban, it leaves a lot of risk on the young people from 76 00:04:44,480 --> 00:04:46,280 a bad perspective. You know what I mean? 77 00:04:46,280 --> 00:04:51,080 It's like these guys are are excited about using them, using 78 00:04:51,080 --> 00:04:53,200 these platforms. I think some of these platforms 79 00:04:53,200 --> 00:04:56,040 there, there are benefits for our young people who are under 80 00:04:56,040 --> 00:04:58,920 the age of 16. And then I can also see in the 81 00:04:59,040 --> 00:05:01,440 with the young people that I work with that there are 82 00:05:01,440 --> 00:05:04,520 challenges and there are a lot of risks as well with some of 83 00:05:04,520 --> 00:05:06,520 the platforms that our young people are using. 84 00:05:06,520 --> 00:05:10,320 And so looking at strengthening, the strengthening and putting 85 00:05:10,320 --> 00:05:14,200 accountability back onto the apps, putting it back onto 86 00:05:14,200 --> 00:05:17,160 parents in what their kids are viewing and what their kids have 87 00:05:17,160 --> 00:05:19,840 access to, I think that's a step. 88 00:05:19,840 --> 00:05:22,800 And then I also think the education to young people on 89 00:05:22,800 --> 00:05:26,040 these platforms and the rest associated with these platforms 90 00:05:26,760 --> 00:05:30,320 at at a younger age and at all levels is crucially important in 91 00:05:30,320 --> 00:05:33,360 the process as well. So, Donnie, what's your view? 92 00:05:34,440 --> 00:05:37,480 I think her, I don't think that the conversation should be on 93 00:05:37,480 --> 00:05:40,720 ban versus no ban. I think that the most important 94 00:05:40,720 --> 00:05:43,280 question is whether or not children are developmentally and 95 00:05:43,280 --> 00:05:46,320 emotionally ready to engage with social media in a healthy way. 96 00:05:46,680 --> 00:05:49,080 So as we know, social media is not going anywhere. 97 00:05:49,080 --> 00:05:52,160 I think we have to be more proactive instead of reactive 98 00:05:52,720 --> 00:05:55,400 when it comes to bands. I think that's a reactive 99 00:05:55,400 --> 00:05:57,360 strategy because children will find a way. 100 00:05:57,360 --> 00:05:59,240 So I can speak from personal experience. 101 00:05:59,520 --> 00:06:02,200 When Facebook first came out, there was no age restrictions, 102 00:06:02,200 --> 00:06:03,560 right? So I'm sure in my age here, I 103 00:06:03,560 --> 00:06:06,040 need to go 30 this year. And when they put the age 104 00:06:06,040 --> 00:06:09,040 restrictions on, all you have to do is some quick maths to change 105 00:06:09,040 --> 00:06:11,640 your age and then you can still have an account, right? 106 00:06:12,280 --> 00:06:15,800 What they're finding overseas is that children are doing those 107 00:06:15,800 --> 00:06:17,680 things, right? And you can't control that 108 00:06:17,680 --> 00:06:20,040 either. So it's about what education are 109 00:06:20,040 --> 00:06:22,640 we providing these kids? What education are we providing 110 00:06:22,640 --> 00:06:26,360 the parents on both the the pros and the cons of social media? 111 00:06:26,360 --> 00:06:29,400 Because there are pros in the sense of it's a way for us to 112 00:06:29,400 --> 00:06:31,400 all connect. Think of the pandemic, right? 113 00:06:32,120 --> 00:06:34,680 We couldn't be around anyone. So the best way to be with 114 00:06:34,680 --> 00:06:37,960 people by their loved ones and near or far was through using 115 00:06:37,960 --> 00:06:40,720 technology, right? But there's this risk with that. 116 00:06:40,720 --> 00:06:43,880 So it's about educating the children on the risk and also 117 00:06:43,880 --> 00:06:46,760 building the resilience in it because you can provide as much 118 00:06:46,760 --> 00:06:50,480 education as you want, but sometimes you will so encounter 119 00:06:50,480 --> 00:06:53,480 an adverse experience online. So how do we build the 120 00:06:53,480 --> 00:06:56,840 resilience in the kids as well as the parents to not have them 121 00:06:56,840 --> 00:06:58,760 deter from those things happening again? 122 00:06:59,120 --> 00:07:02,280 Also, with education comes open and honest conversations from 123 00:07:02,280 --> 00:07:04,320 our children. So if they do encounter 124 00:07:04,320 --> 00:07:07,240 adversity online or have an unfortunate experience, they're 125 00:07:07,240 --> 00:07:09,440 going to be more forthcoming with it, right? 126 00:07:10,400 --> 00:07:13,200 I do think that a lot of this has to go back to the website 127 00:07:13,520 --> 00:07:17,000 and tech developers because they do understand that social media 128 00:07:17,000 --> 00:07:19,080 is addictive, right? They, they make, they make the 129 00:07:19,080 --> 00:07:22,080 algorithms to be that way. So it's about, OK, if we know 130 00:07:22,080 --> 00:07:24,480 that children are very impressionable and their brains 131 00:07:24,680 --> 00:07:27,400 get hooked on things and they like the instant gratification 132 00:07:27,400 --> 00:07:32,040 that social media has for them, what can the the tech developers 133 00:07:32,120 --> 00:07:35,520 do to help limit that instant gratification so children can 134 00:07:35,520 --> 00:07:38,640 still be in the real world? Also, what accountability are we 135 00:07:38,640 --> 00:07:41,160 putting on the parents when it comes to educating their 136 00:07:41,160 --> 00:07:43,800 children, having proper boundaries around that? 137 00:07:44,760 --> 00:07:48,760 The American Academy of Pediatrics just did a study that 138 00:07:48,760 --> 00:07:51,920 came out and said that, you know, even having screen time 139 00:07:51,920 --> 00:07:54,360 balance for kids, that's still not enough, right? 140 00:07:54,480 --> 00:07:57,240 Because there's the brains are still processing the information 141 00:07:57,240 --> 00:07:58,800 overall. So I think the literature is 142 00:07:58,800 --> 00:08:01,520 constantly changing. So we have to definitely stay on 143 00:08:01,520 --> 00:08:03,760 top of that. And that's when professionals 144 00:08:03,760 --> 00:08:07,280 have to advocate and provide the spaces for people to learn and 145 00:08:07,280 --> 00:08:10,000 grow because it is something that isn't going anywhere. 146 00:08:10,000 --> 00:08:12,880 It's just going to get bigger and bigger and more demanding as 147 00:08:12,880 --> 00:08:16,120 time goes. Jonathan, our resident expert. 148 00:08:19,440 --> 00:08:23,520 Yeah, I largely concur with what Darren and Chardonnay have said. 149 00:08:24,120 --> 00:08:27,280 One thing Chardonnay said was that they're addictive and the 150 00:08:27,280 --> 00:08:28,760 algorithms are designed that way. 151 00:08:29,280 --> 00:08:32,080 And that's how I think about social media in, in relation to 152 00:08:32,080 --> 00:08:35,360 an age ban because you know, you can't buy alcohol till you're 153 00:08:35,360 --> 00:08:37,760 18. You can't, although the whole 154 00:08:37,760 --> 00:08:40,400 cannabis situation is a bit up in the air at the moment. 155 00:08:40,400 --> 00:08:44,240 You couldn't purchase cannabis until you were 21 because the 156 00:08:44,240 --> 00:08:47,000 idea was that, you know, the brains are still developing. 157 00:08:47,240 --> 00:08:50,200 And until it's fully mature, it's easy to kind of get 158 00:08:50,200 --> 00:08:54,720 hijacked and really addictive, though I and even though we have 159 00:08:54,720 --> 00:08:58,040 those age limits on alcohol and stuff, people still found a way 160 00:08:58,040 --> 00:09:00,840 to get around them. But I do think the age limits 161 00:09:00,840 --> 00:09:04,280 are still useful. But I do agree that the key 162 00:09:04,280 --> 00:09:07,960 thing is having education. I know, I believe they teach 163 00:09:07,960 --> 00:09:11,600 about cyberbullying in, in the schools. 164 00:09:11,600 --> 00:09:15,880 And I do think they talk, talk about, you know, predators in 165 00:09:15,880 --> 00:09:18,440 schools as well. And I, I don't know if they're 166 00:09:18,440 --> 00:09:21,680 teaching about healthy social media usage, how to actually use 167 00:09:21,960 --> 00:09:24,040 the Internet in a healthy, productive way. 168 00:09:24,560 --> 00:09:29,280 I do have concerns that if we do ban it, you know, if, if a kid 169 00:09:29,280 --> 00:09:34,400 is then subverting it and going on to social media anyway, are 170 00:09:34,400 --> 00:09:37,120 they going to come and tell their parents if they find 171 00:09:37,120 --> 00:09:40,520 something which is dangerous, if they come across cyberbullying 172 00:09:40,840 --> 00:09:44,360 or predator, they might be quiet and not talk about it and that's 173 00:09:44,360 --> 00:09:47,480 problematic. My bigger concern is about 174 00:09:47,480 --> 00:09:49,280 people who are differently abled. 175 00:09:50,240 --> 00:09:54,440 There are some people who, well, our society is not very disabled 176 00:09:54,440 --> 00:09:56,560 friendly. So there are some disabled 177 00:09:56,560 --> 00:10:00,480 people who their only real, real window into society is through 178 00:10:00,480 --> 00:10:02,880 social media. So how do we balance that? 179 00:10:03,160 --> 00:10:06,480 You know, a 12 year old quadriplegic who can't go to 180 00:10:06,480 --> 00:10:09,720 school but can't access their phone and now you're banning 181 00:10:09,720 --> 00:10:12,240 them from that. It's it's there's a lot of pros 182 00:10:12,240 --> 00:10:14,320 and cons. There's a lot of pros and cons 183 00:10:14,480 --> 00:10:15,080 I. Agree. 184 00:10:15,520 --> 00:10:18,160 I mean, personally, I, you know, I've been listening to the 185 00:10:18,160 --> 00:10:21,400 debate in the UK and I think one of the biggest problems are 186 00:10:21,400 --> 00:10:27,080 these algorithms that feed you so much information and take you 187 00:10:27,080 --> 00:10:29,800 down a rabbit hole. And the information a lot of the 188 00:10:29,800 --> 00:10:33,240 time is not good and it does become addictive. 189 00:10:33,240 --> 00:10:35,600 And it does seem to me that there should be greater emphasis 190 00:10:35,600 --> 00:10:39,320 on the platforms themselves to actually police themselves. 191 00:10:39,320 --> 00:10:42,760 Well, I think that I think that might be asking too much of them 192 00:10:42,760 --> 00:10:47,960 from what we've seen so far. I mean, what harm are we trying 193 00:10:47,960 --> 00:10:51,520 to reduce here? I think before we answer that, 194 00:10:51,520 --> 00:10:54,320 we have to keep on talking about the fact of why it becomes 195 00:10:54,320 --> 00:10:57,200 addictive to start, right? So we've touched on it slightly, 196 00:10:57,200 --> 00:11:00,160 but I think that it's important that we understand that social 197 00:11:00,160 --> 00:11:03,520 media is so compelling because it activates the brain's reward 198 00:11:03,520 --> 00:11:06,480 system, right? So as adults, we know we can put 199 00:11:06,480 --> 00:11:08,720 the phone down as you've dreamed, scrolled for a while. 200 00:11:08,720 --> 00:11:10,560 Children's brains are still developing. 201 00:11:10,800 --> 00:11:13,120 Those brains have impulse control. 202 00:11:13,120 --> 00:11:16,480 They they lack judgement, they lack emotional regulation. 203 00:11:16,600 --> 00:11:19,440 They have the self esteem pieces and identity and they're looking 204 00:11:19,440 --> 00:11:22,640 for the pair approval. So social media, you know, 205 00:11:22,920 --> 00:11:24,880 agencies, they feed off of that, right? 206 00:11:25,120 --> 00:11:29,800 So every like comment, message, streak or notification creates A 207 00:11:29,800 --> 00:11:31,800 dopamine response in the brain, right? 208 00:11:31,960 --> 00:11:34,680 So as we know, dopamine is connected to rewards, 209 00:11:34,680 --> 00:11:37,280 motivation, anticipation and habit formation. 210 00:11:37,520 --> 00:11:39,840 So this becomes the thing that they always have to do, which is 211 00:11:39,840 --> 00:11:42,560 why you can tell a child put your phone down, but they heard 212 00:11:42,560 --> 00:11:44,960 the phone Ding off. They're like, I have to answer 213 00:11:44,960 --> 00:11:45,960 it. Whereas parents would be like, 214 00:11:45,960 --> 00:11:48,360 it's not that it's not that needy, but for them it is 215 00:11:48,360 --> 00:11:50,920 because their brains are interpreting it differently as 216 00:11:50,920 --> 00:11:52,840 they're still growing and developing, right? 217 00:11:53,480 --> 00:11:56,280 The issue isn't just the pleasure of getting the reward 218 00:11:56,280 --> 00:11:59,600 system activated itself. It's the cycle of anticipation. 219 00:11:59,600 --> 00:12:02,360 So like who liked my post? Did they reply? 220 00:12:02,560 --> 00:12:04,560 What did I miss? What's next? 221 00:12:04,720 --> 00:12:08,280 Those things of what you know, it makes children think, I'm 222 00:12:08,320 --> 00:12:11,640 sorry, adults think, OK, my child's not becoming addicted to 223 00:12:11,640 --> 00:12:13,120 this. So how can we curb there's 224 00:12:13,120 --> 00:12:16,320 there's behaviors, right? It's not always because they're 225 00:12:16,320 --> 00:12:19,080 weak or undisciplined. It's because the design is 226 00:12:19,080 --> 00:12:21,560 intentionally pervasive for these children. 227 00:12:22,240 --> 00:12:23,600 Persuasive. Sorry for these kids. 228 00:12:24,160 --> 00:12:25,040 Darren, what? What? 229 00:12:25,680 --> 00:12:27,880 What harm are we trying to reduce here, do you think? 230 00:12:28,000 --> 00:12:31,120 Yeah, I think I, I, I agree with what Chardonnay said. 231 00:12:31,120 --> 00:12:35,400 I think that when you look at the key harms in this area, 232 00:12:36,280 --> 00:12:38,400 you're looking at the mental health impacts. 233 00:12:38,400 --> 00:12:42,920 And so that's briefly what's the consistent comparison to curated 234 00:12:42,920 --> 00:12:48,440 lifestyles, the pressure for popularity or the fear of 235 00:12:48,440 --> 00:12:50,200 missing out? You're looking at those 236 00:12:50,200 --> 00:12:52,760 validation. It's one of those things is that 237 00:12:52,760 --> 00:12:58,840 kids start to be be validated by social media likes by by 238 00:12:58,840 --> 00:13:01,280 comments. They are are validated and 239 00:13:01,280 --> 00:13:04,880 that's what they build their presence on in those things. 240 00:13:04,880 --> 00:13:09,120 So young people are creating and forming their identity based on 241 00:13:09,520 --> 00:13:12,240 social media platforms. And and it's not just young 242 00:13:12,240 --> 00:13:13,760 people. This is young people. 243 00:13:13,880 --> 00:13:18,080 We can go on this 16, but there are many adults to this day at 244 00:13:18,080 --> 00:13:20,760 struggle with the same things that we're we're we're Speaking 245 00:13:20,760 --> 00:13:22,320 of. Then you look at the cyber 246 00:13:22,320 --> 00:13:26,720 bullying, cyber bullying and online harassment, which are 247 00:13:26,720 --> 00:13:29,640 things which I can say is like, what are people doing and what 248 00:13:29,640 --> 00:13:32,800 are schools doing? That's something that that in 249 00:13:32,800 --> 00:13:35,360 the programs that I work with and programs that I know 250 00:13:35,640 --> 00:13:38,720 Chardonnay is working with and other groups and family centre, 251 00:13:38,960 --> 00:13:41,440 they actually have sessions that kind of not work with young 252 00:13:41,440 --> 00:13:43,640 people on a few of those different things. 253 00:13:43,640 --> 00:13:46,160 And, and, and you have to because it's so prevalent. 254 00:13:47,280 --> 00:13:51,160 Other things is the exposure to harmful or adult content. 255 00:13:51,520 --> 00:13:54,160 Yeah. And so that's violence, that's 256 00:13:54,160 --> 00:13:57,680 pornography, that's the self harm content, the self, the self 257 00:13:57,680 --> 00:14:02,360 hate speech, the misogyny drug of other criminal activity from 258 00:14:02,360 --> 00:14:05,800 mine for in my area on the gang wild introduction team, which I 259 00:14:05,800 --> 00:14:09,600 work, we work with, it's the music, it's the language, it's 260 00:14:09,600 --> 00:14:12,280 there's other things that, like we said, the algorithm are 261 00:14:12,280 --> 00:14:16,840 constantly pushing at our young people at that undeveloped age, 262 00:14:17,320 --> 00:14:21,200 brain age. So these platforms are built to 263 00:14:21,240 --> 00:14:24,480 keep attention, not to protect their childhood. 264 00:14:25,400 --> 00:14:27,720 And it's difficult to protect the childhood. 265 00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:31,120 And then you look at the sexual exploitation and grooming. 266 00:14:32,040 --> 00:14:35,680 So there's other harms that our young people really are look 267 00:14:35,800 --> 00:14:39,560 looking at and then kind of the sleep disruption and the 268 00:14:39,560 --> 00:14:42,640 addiction pieces. So those to me are those key 269 00:14:42,640 --> 00:14:46,960 pillars of of harm that young people are exposed to whilst on 270 00:14:46,960 --> 00:14:49,600 social media. And it's not just young people 271 00:14:49,600 --> 00:14:52,760 that young people specifically for this conversation that we're 272 00:14:52,760 --> 00:14:56,120 talking about, but that's also I think this are very similar 273 00:14:56,120 --> 00:14:59,120 things for adults as well in some of those categories that we 274 00:14:59,120 --> 00:15:03,280 struggle with as as everyday people in social media as well. 275 00:15:04,160 --> 00:15:06,600 Jonathan, just before I come on to you, I should explain to our 276 00:15:06,600 --> 00:15:09,680 viewers and listeners that unfortunately we seem to have 277 00:15:09,680 --> 00:15:11,800 lost Sandy to Silva at the moment. 278 00:15:11,800 --> 00:15:14,520 Hopefully she'll be able to, she'll be able to rejoin us 279 00:15:14,520 --> 00:15:17,760 having shared Internet problems. Well, though I'm not going to 280 00:15:17,760 --> 00:15:20,280 ask you that question. I'm going to ask you when it 281 00:15:20,280 --> 00:15:23,920 comes to things like rights and responsibilities, who carries 282 00:15:23,920 --> 00:15:27,160 the burden? I mean, as a parent, I feel that 283 00:15:27,160 --> 00:15:31,880 I should carry the burden, but there is kind of three kind of 284 00:15:31,880 --> 00:15:35,160 key tensions here. You've got child safety, haven't 285 00:15:35,160 --> 00:15:37,840 you, versus autonomy and expression, freedom of 286 00:15:37,840 --> 00:15:41,040 expression. You got parental responsibility 287 00:15:41,320 --> 00:15:44,520 versus platform responsibility, and then you've got the 288 00:15:44,520 --> 00:15:45,920 government involved. Whether you should have 289 00:15:45,920 --> 00:15:48,560 government regulation and whether there's practical 290 00:15:48,560 --> 00:15:52,720 enforceability here. What are your views? 291 00:15:52,720 --> 00:15:55,880 If if there is who? Who bears the burden if we're 292 00:15:55,880 --> 00:15:59,560 not going to have a delay or a ban, Who bears the burden to 293 00:15:59,560 --> 00:16:02,640 make sure our children are not exposed to all the things that 294 00:16:02,640 --> 00:16:06,360 Darren just outlined? Well, I mean, of course there's 295 00:16:06,360 --> 00:16:09,080 going to be parental responsibility involved, but we 296 00:16:09,080 --> 00:16:12,440 also have to understand there's a lot of economic inequality and 297 00:16:12,440 --> 00:16:16,280 that leads to some people simply don't have the time to parent 298 00:16:16,680 --> 00:16:18,920 the way that say a middle class family could. 299 00:16:19,120 --> 00:16:22,160 They're working 2 shifts or they're working a shift where 300 00:16:22,160 --> 00:16:24,360 they're just so exhausted when they get home. 301 00:16:24,360 --> 00:16:27,960 That is very easy just to, you know, use the TV as a babysitter 302 00:16:27,960 --> 00:16:31,080 or and the child a phone because it keeps them quiet. 303 00:16:31,320 --> 00:16:33,960 You're tired from work. So there is that aspect. 304 00:16:34,280 --> 00:16:38,000 We've had the breakdown of the extended family unit where we 305 00:16:38,000 --> 00:16:40,520 had generations working together. 306 00:16:40,880 --> 00:16:44,480 So that doesn't exist anymore. In the absence of that, the the 307 00:16:44,480 --> 00:16:47,560 government does represent the democratic will of the people. 308 00:16:47,560 --> 00:16:50,520 So it does have the responsibility to kind of step 309 00:16:50,520 --> 00:16:54,360 in to safeguard in a degree. Whereas the social media, 310 00:16:54,360 --> 00:16:56,920 they're, they're private for profit enterprises. 311 00:16:56,920 --> 00:17:01,640 The algorithm is for profit and click bait, hate things, 312 00:17:01,640 --> 00:17:05,319 controversial things are what drives clicks, which drives 313 00:17:05,319 --> 00:17:09,839 profit and undermines, well, democracy as a whole in terms of 314 00:17:09,839 --> 00:17:13,000 journalism as well. So there's a whole series of 315 00:17:13,000 --> 00:17:16,040 aspects involved. I don't like the idea that the 316 00:17:16,040 --> 00:17:18,079 social media and algorithms are for profit. 317 00:17:18,359 --> 00:17:20,119 I think they should be a not-for-profit. 318 00:17:20,560 --> 00:17:23,720 But, you know, I don't think we're going to exactly convert 319 00:17:23,720 --> 00:17:25,720 Facebook into a not-for-profit overnight. 320 00:17:27,280 --> 00:17:28,720 Instagram. Now at least, Bermuda's not 321 00:17:28,720 --> 00:17:31,720 going to be able to do that. Darren, what are you? 322 00:17:31,720 --> 00:17:34,640 What are your thoughts on that? Where does the burden of 323 00:17:34,640 --> 00:17:40,560 responsibility lie? I think it's it like, like 324 00:17:40,560 --> 00:17:44,760 Jonathan then said, it's such a, a nuanced puzzle piece there. 325 00:17:45,440 --> 00:17:49,160 And burden is it can't be 1 sector. 326 00:17:49,680 --> 00:17:53,120 I think that multiple sectors have to take responsibility in 327 00:17:53,120 --> 00:17:56,000 different ways in order to protect our young people. 328 00:17:56,000 --> 00:18:01,080 And, and, and I don't think that parents cannot monitor at all. 329 00:18:02,480 --> 00:18:07,320 Parents have multiple children, parents are not always familiar 330 00:18:07,320 --> 00:18:11,280 with how apps are updated, how apps are changing, the apps that 331 00:18:11,280 --> 00:18:13,920 their kids are using, the apps that their kids are following. 332 00:18:15,480 --> 00:18:19,600 Children, like we all said, create signature accounts, they 333 00:18:19,600 --> 00:18:23,480 can hire apps, they can use friends devices like they'll 334 00:18:23,480 --> 00:18:27,440 find a way in order to to figure out how to get on these 335 00:18:27,440 --> 00:18:32,600 platforms. And so I think it, it's, it's 336 00:18:33,440 --> 00:18:35,480 it's a tough, it's a tough fix. I don't know. 337 00:18:35,560 --> 00:18:40,680 I don't, I don't have the answer in like in specifically in who's 338 00:18:40,680 --> 00:18:43,200 responsible for fixing this. I think it's going to take 339 00:18:43,440 --> 00:18:44,880 schools. I think it's going to take 340 00:18:44,880 --> 00:18:46,280 community. I think it's going to take 341 00:18:46,280 --> 00:18:48,960 parent responsibility. I know the government has to be 342 00:18:48,960 --> 00:18:52,200 involved and and different things and people have to be 343 00:18:52,200 --> 00:18:53,680 involved in order to see some type. 344 00:18:55,560 --> 00:18:58,040 Of so Donnie, I know you, you disappeared for a for a second 345 00:18:58,200 --> 00:19:01,320 there, but just to repeat the question, who has the rights and 346 00:19:01,320 --> 00:19:04,280 responsibilities? Who carries the burden here? 347 00:19:04,600 --> 00:19:08,000 The the child safety versus autonomy and expression to the 348 00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:11,520 parents versus the platform? What about government regulation 349 00:19:11,520 --> 00:19:14,760 and practical enforceability? Which side do you lie on? 350 00:19:15,720 --> 00:19:18,360 I think it's a community effort. I think it's a collective 351 00:19:18,360 --> 00:19:21,760 approach from everyone. Now, we do know that, you know, 352 00:19:22,120 --> 00:19:25,200 the social media tech companies aren't probably going to side 353 00:19:25,240 --> 00:19:28,360 with the naysayers like ourselves or like parents or 354 00:19:28,360 --> 00:19:30,840 government agencies. But I think it takes to have 355 00:19:30,840 --> 00:19:34,920 round table discussions with the professionals in each individual 356 00:19:34,920 --> 00:19:37,680 country and jurisdiction to look at the trends that we're having 357 00:19:37,960 --> 00:19:40,880 in our own individual communities and what can we do? 358 00:19:41,120 --> 00:19:43,480 Like I started off, I don't think the conversation is about 359 00:19:43,480 --> 00:19:45,640 ban or no ban. It's about being proactive, 360 00:19:45,720 --> 00:19:49,360 active to fully ensure that our children are equipped when it 361 00:19:49,360 --> 00:19:53,160 comes to managing social media and what to do if they encounter 362 00:19:53,160 --> 00:19:56,520 adversity online, whether it be cyber, bullying, grooming, 363 00:19:56,520 --> 00:20:00,320 sexting, viewing harmful content and things of that nature. 364 00:20:00,320 --> 00:20:02,720 Because social media is a double edged sword. 365 00:20:02,720 --> 00:20:06,360 We have proactive measures. My master's dissertation spoke 366 00:20:06,360 --> 00:20:10,160 to social media and self harm. Whereas it's a 5050 in the sense 367 00:20:10,160 --> 00:20:13,680 of if you are a child who does self harm, you can use social 368 00:20:13,680 --> 00:20:16,160 media as a way to cope because it's community, right? 369 00:20:16,600 --> 00:20:20,080 And another side of it is you can actually learn different 370 00:20:20,080 --> 00:20:22,280 methods how to conceal yourself harming as well. 371 00:20:22,280 --> 00:20:25,440 So it's about really equipping your child with the safe space 372 00:20:25,440 --> 00:20:27,840 and the community to have these conversations. 373 00:20:29,200 --> 00:20:31,000 And the knowledge about that, right? 374 00:20:31,200 --> 00:20:33,960 Most of these parents these days, they have no idea about 375 00:20:34,120 --> 00:20:37,320 how TikTok works or Snapchat and things of that nature because 376 00:20:37,560 --> 00:20:40,760 they're new, they're developing. My parents definitely had no 377 00:20:40,760 --> 00:20:42,680 clue about these things when I was growing up. 378 00:20:42,760 --> 00:20:45,080 All we knew was BlackBerry Messenger before WhatsApp, 379 00:20:45,120 --> 00:20:47,280 right? So it's about making sure that 380 00:20:47,280 --> 00:20:49,720 we have the education because knowledge is power. 381 00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:53,560 And I think that it's a duty for government as well as 382 00:20:53,560 --> 00:20:57,080 professionals in the field to provide the spaces for that. 383 00:20:57,080 --> 00:21:00,600 Like Garen's, like Darren's said, sorry, myself, Darren 384 00:21:00,600 --> 00:21:03,480 Family Center, we all do different workshops. 385 00:21:03,840 --> 00:21:07,360 You know, I have a digital Wellness program to provide the 386 00:21:07,360 --> 00:21:09,800 education not just for the parents, but for the children. 387 00:21:10,120 --> 00:21:12,320 We know that when teenagers especially, sometimes it's 388 00:21:12,320 --> 00:21:16,080 better for them to have those conversations with an unbiased 389 00:21:16,080 --> 00:21:18,760 third party like ourselves versus having the conversation 390 00:21:18,760 --> 00:21:20,880 with mommy and daddy. Because when mommy and daddy 391 00:21:20,880 --> 00:21:23,200 says it, it's like I wrote, I don't want to hear it. 392 00:21:23,200 --> 00:21:25,760 They don't understand. But speaking to a professional, 393 00:21:25,760 --> 00:21:28,080 we do understand why you like social media. 394 00:21:28,280 --> 00:21:31,160 We get why your brain is attracted to these things and 395 00:21:31,160 --> 00:21:33,280 why you need that. But like for girls, for example, 396 00:21:33,280 --> 00:21:36,280 like Darren touched on briefly, he said that you know, self, the 397 00:21:36,280 --> 00:21:37,720 self esteem piece comes out right. 398 00:21:38,080 --> 00:21:41,280 So speaking to another woman who understands social media might 399 00:21:41,280 --> 00:21:44,760 say, OK, I can listen to her and not develop body dysmorphia. 400 00:21:44,760 --> 00:21:47,720 If I do have body dysmorphia already, she can provide me the 401 00:21:47,720 --> 00:21:50,320 coping strategies to work through it so I can have a 402 00:21:50,320 --> 00:21:52,680 better, healthier relationship with technology. 403 00:21:52,920 --> 00:21:55,640 It's about improving the relationship and not necessarily 404 00:21:55,640 --> 00:21:58,440 taking it away because you don't want to Createspace where 405 00:21:58,440 --> 00:22:00,720 children are then hiding what they're doing. 406 00:22:00,720 --> 00:22:04,840 Because if they do and hunt or harmful event or something 407 00:22:04,840 --> 00:22:07,800 that's going to be detrimental to their overall Wellness and 408 00:22:07,800 --> 00:22:09,880 mental Wellness. They're not going to come forth 409 00:22:09,880 --> 00:22:11,240 and say that thing. They're going to suffer in 410 00:22:11,240 --> 00:22:12,960 silence. So would you rather have a group 411 00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:16,520 of individuals suffering in silence or more children coming 412 00:22:16,520 --> 00:22:19,000 forward speaking about what they're on, what they're 413 00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:20,840 encountering, or how to be resilient? 414 00:22:21,120 --> 00:22:23,680 Teenagers go to their peers before they go to adults. 415 00:22:23,680 --> 00:22:26,520 So if we can train and have different ambassadors like 416 00:22:26,520 --> 00:22:30,360 teenagers that can help their appears, then it makes a blanket 417 00:22:30,360 --> 00:22:34,040 of a protective layer for them instead of just saying, OK, take 418 00:22:34,040 --> 00:22:36,760 it away completely. Because research does show if 419 00:22:36,760 --> 00:22:39,960 you take the device completely due to your child, you know 420 00:22:40,160 --> 00:22:42,960 going beyond screen time or you know, interacting with the 421 00:22:42,960 --> 00:22:46,200 devices inappropriately, it does more harm and breakdown to your 422 00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:48,920 relationship with your child versus the actual them 423 00:22:48,920 --> 00:22:51,320 understanding why the phone's being taken. 424 00:22:52,200 --> 00:22:56,800 How feasible is it to train or educate that many people though, 425 00:22:57,080 --> 00:22:59,600 in what would have to be a relatively short space of time 426 00:22:59,880 --> 00:23:02,840 to protect against the harms that we we've talked about? 427 00:23:03,120 --> 00:23:05,640 Isn't it just easier taking one course of action? 428 00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:09,000 No, I, I don't think so. I think you have to be dedicated 429 00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:12,120 to do it. When I wrote, I love all things 430 00:23:12,120 --> 00:23:13,440 social media and youth mental health. 431 00:23:13,440 --> 00:23:16,520 That is my thing. So when I wrote my digital 432 00:23:16,520 --> 00:23:19,280 Wellness program, I didn't just write it for the, for the 433 00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:21,960 children to benefit from it because I have a primary school 434 00:23:21,960 --> 00:23:24,200 model, a middle school and a high school. 435 00:23:24,360 --> 00:23:26,520 I also did it for the parents as well, right? 436 00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:31,040 Because if I can educate 5 parents, they can take that and 437 00:23:31,040 --> 00:23:33,400 spread that knowledge and information on to their friends 438 00:23:33,440 --> 00:23:35,400 or say like, you know, to the school. 439 00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:37,760 Hey, I did a workshop of Chardonnay. 440 00:23:37,760 --> 00:23:39,840 She was great. She taught me about, you know, 441 00:23:39,840 --> 00:23:42,680 how to do parental gun controls, how to speak to my kids about 442 00:23:42,680 --> 00:23:44,600 this. You should bring it in for PTA. 443 00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:47,120 It's about right of mouth. We know Bermuda, word of mouth 444 00:23:47,120 --> 00:23:50,840 goes a long way and people are now starting to realize the the 445 00:23:51,240 --> 00:23:54,480 impacts of social media rather not just because of adversity, 446 00:23:54,680 --> 00:23:57,480 but my child staying up all night gaming and now the next 447 00:23:57,480 --> 00:23:59,800 morning they're very grumpy or they're falling asleep in class. 448 00:23:59,960 --> 00:24:01,960 What do we do? We're starting to see these 449 00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:05,600 things become real and not just watching it on like CNN or BBC 450 00:24:05,600 --> 00:24:09,080 because in Bermuda we tend to have a delayed response when it 451 00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:11,800 comes to things, a delayed impact because we get things 452 00:24:11,800 --> 00:24:13,480 later than other parts of the world. 453 00:24:13,720 --> 00:24:17,080 But it is happening here. So it takes people to, you know, 454 00:24:17,080 --> 00:24:20,040 be forced on forthcoming and I call you guys have to have this 455 00:24:20,040 --> 00:24:22,000 conversation. And I'd say let's bring some 456 00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:24,920 experts who want to talk about it because if one person knows 457 00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:27,120 something, they can spread it to the next person in the game of 458 00:24:27,120 --> 00:24:29,640 telephone, you know, helps in this regard. 459 00:24:30,760 --> 00:24:32,440 What are your thoughts on that, Darren? 460 00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:36,360 I, I, I, I think that that public education is something 461 00:24:36,360 --> 00:24:40,320 that like we, we, we view as this big like task and it's some 462 00:24:40,320 --> 00:24:44,520 difficult thing, but I think it happens organically and I think 463 00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:47,520 that it's possible. So I think if we're looking at 464 00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:53,000 at putting, I think things just need a driver and if there's 465 00:24:53,280 --> 00:24:55,760 interest and I think the government should be that driver 466 00:24:55,760 --> 00:25:00,480 of the public education pieces. I know we have Sloan who does 467 00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:03,960 work on cyber bullying in the schools and I know she has 468 00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:08,080 various platforms that that, that, that, that that start to 469 00:25:08,080 --> 00:25:10,920 do that work. And I think that if Bermuda's 470 00:25:10,920 --> 00:25:15,760 seeing Bermuda, it needs to see more of like the impact and 471 00:25:15,760 --> 00:25:18,960 understanding impact that this could be and is having on 472 00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:20,640 different young people in our community. 473 00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:23,880 And so you're looking at parent education, you're looking at 474 00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:27,560 parent support. You need to, we need to be more 475 00:25:27,560 --> 00:25:30,880 targeted in the approach of people that are working with 476 00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:33,640 young people and, and meeting young people where they're at to 477 00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:38,640 teach them this information. And so looking at like how, how 478 00:25:39,040 --> 00:25:44,200 algorithm, sorry, look at young people, what they see teaching 479 00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:47,840 parents on cyber bullying and the warning signs, the online 480 00:25:47,840 --> 00:25:51,120 grooming, the health screening and boundaries being placed. 481 00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:54,080 And then it's, it's meeting the youth where they're at to 482 00:25:54,080 --> 00:25:57,920 educate the young people. We have, I have three sessions 483 00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:03,280 in, in programming that I have with, with over 160 young people 484 00:26:03,280 --> 00:26:06,440 around the island yearly. And we do something on my 485 00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:09,080 algorithm. You know, what is my algorithm? 486 00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:12,880 That's a three session topic that breaks down and, and really 487 00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:16,720 takes young people just by starting pulling out their 488 00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:19,000 phones. Most of them have them and, and 489 00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:22,000 what's the first three things that come up on your algorithm? 490 00:26:22,520 --> 00:26:24,880 Let's debrief that and let's look at that and let's look at 491 00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:28,280 how that's affecting you. Look how that's affecting you 492 00:26:28,280 --> 00:26:30,080 emotionally. Let's look at what you're 493 00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:32,480 putting into your body and what you're putting into your system 494 00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:34,760 and how you're viewing it and breaking those things down. 495 00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:39,040 And then comes public awareness, health campaigns, campaigns. 496 00:26:39,360 --> 00:26:43,640 And so I am running to stop the violence campaign locally, which 497 00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:46,360 which puts out different pieces and puts things on a larger 498 00:26:46,360 --> 00:26:48,720 scale locally. And I think it's, it's very 499 00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:52,080 similar to if we were doing a drinking and driving or mental 500 00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:55,800 awareness or anti smoking. These campaigns that are pushed 501 00:26:55,800 --> 00:26:58,360 and that are allowed and that that have that impact bring 502 00:26:58,360 --> 00:27:01,200 awareness forward through to people. 503 00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:04,640 And then I think like again it it comes down to platform 504 00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:08,400 accountability. But that's the hard to ask. 505 00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:10,800 These are multi billion dollar companies that he is speaking 506 00:27:10,800 --> 00:27:13,160 about here. I think we all can all agree 507 00:27:13,160 --> 00:27:16,760 that it's not on the young people to fix the issue 508 00:27:16,760 --> 00:27:20,120 themselves and the burden doesn't lie on them that it 509 00:27:20,120 --> 00:27:21,960 should, but lie on others to do that. 510 00:27:22,040 --> 00:27:23,160 I think that's very true. Yeah. 511 00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:25,200 We must remember that they're almost victims. 512 00:27:25,320 --> 00:27:27,880 Yeah. In many ways of of a highly 513 00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:31,920 addictive. Yeah, thing I don't know about a 514 00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:34,720 phrase. I'm, I'm kind of interested. 515 00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:37,440 Chardonnay and and and Darren have talked about a lot about 516 00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:40,960 parental responsibility and the community responsibility. 517 00:27:41,320 --> 00:27:44,360 You made the point that if you're working 2 shifts, if 518 00:27:44,360 --> 00:27:47,560 you're both parents are working or if you're a, a single parent, 519 00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:49,960 that's a hell of a responsibility to put on 520 00:27:49,960 --> 00:27:52,240 somebody, isn't it? You know, I just wonder from 521 00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:53,720 your point of view, is that practical? 522 00:27:53,720 --> 00:27:56,760 It seems not necessarily practical to me. 523 00:27:58,280 --> 00:28:01,400 Well, I'm worried that we're treating symptoms, putting band 524 00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:03,360 aids, rather than dealing with the core issues. 525 00:28:03,360 --> 00:28:07,240 And to me that is, is our way of life sustainable? 526 00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:10,600 Does it even make sense that we are so tired and we have such 527 00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:15,200 economic inequality, Even our approach to consumerism, which 528 00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:19,160 is most of what our society is based on, is that healthy? 529 00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:22,720 I don't think it is. I think we need champions to to 530 00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:26,840 lead this conversation, to say we need to rethink the way we're 531 00:28:26,840 --> 00:28:29,760 doing our economy, our society, everything. 532 00:28:31,120 --> 00:28:34,240 I mean, even with the social media and the algorithm, they're 533 00:28:34,240 --> 00:28:36,520 controlled by, you know, the tech Bros, which are 534 00:28:37,080 --> 00:28:39,680 billionaires who are disconnected from our way of 535 00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:42,360 life. And they are able to kind of 536 00:28:42,360 --> 00:28:48,080 control what we think and they can censor critical voices, they 537 00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:53,240 can bump the manosphere and toxic masculinity and anti 538 00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:55,400 feminism and a whole bunch of things. 539 00:28:56,040 --> 00:28:58,520 So that we have, there are big problems that we need to 540 00:28:58,520 --> 00:29:00,240 address. And I think the key is to have 541 00:29:01,080 --> 00:29:02,960 citizens that can think critically. 542 00:29:03,360 --> 00:29:05,760 And that's where education should play the role. 543 00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:09,360 But at the same time we have the social medias cannot. 544 00:29:09,800 --> 00:29:12,600 Not necessarily dumbing us down but preventing us to think 545 00:29:12,600 --> 00:29:14,840 critically. I know so many people who use 546 00:29:14,840 --> 00:29:18,640 ChatGPT to organise a meeting rather than just to think how to 547 00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:21,440 do a meeting you. Know totally agree so that when 548 00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:23,400 you're 14. Lack of critical thinking going 549 00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:26,240 forward that we just need to address as a society. 550 00:29:26,760 --> 00:29:29,480 But when you're 14 years old, how, how much ability do you 551 00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:32,680 have to have to be able to think critically by yourself and say, 552 00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:37,280 oh, that's the algorithm. How, how, how, how can hard 553 00:29:37,280 --> 00:29:41,760 pressed parents think critically about it as well without some 554 00:29:41,760 --> 00:29:45,440 help, maybe without some regulation or even legislation 555 00:29:45,800 --> 00:29:48,160 to make them aware of it? It seems to me to be a kind of a 556 00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:50,800 vicious circle. I mean, to be honest, and I know 557 00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:55,200 we're talking about age and the and the social media impact on 558 00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:58,200 youth, but to be honest, the youth have grown up with social 559 00:29:58,200 --> 00:29:59,960 media. They understand it better than 560 00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:03,680 most of those baby boomers. They're the ones who got all 561 00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:06,360 with the fake news over COVID and Trump. 562 00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:10,480 I think if anything we need some social media education for the 563 00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:13,200 40 and above to be honest. The. 564 00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:15,760 Point though, I actually think. Like what you're saying, 565 00:30:15,760 --> 00:30:19,600 Jonathan, is a critical point is that young people, yeah, we have 566 00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:22,120 to remember that our young people are navigating in this 567 00:30:22,120 --> 00:30:24,080 space. They're navigating in this 568 00:30:24,080 --> 00:30:26,720 world. It's very different even from 569 00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:32,720 how myself and Chardonnay as as young adults, almost still young 570 00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:38,320 adult, I guess I like to call myself that are in this space 571 00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:40,960 how we grew up. It's different, you know what I 572 00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:44,440 mean? And so they're navigating this 573 00:30:44,440 --> 00:30:48,240 space. So even myself, I have to stay 574 00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:52,040 educationally relevant, like I need to know what apps they're 575 00:30:52,040 --> 00:30:54,000 using. I need to know what the music 576 00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:56,840 that they're listening to. I need to understand like what 577 00:30:56,840 --> 00:31:00,320 TikTok trends and different things are happening and are on 578 00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:03,480 trend with young people in order to meet and service the young 579 00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:07,080 people that we're working with and, and, and in the service 580 00:31:07,080 --> 00:31:10,440 industry and in the helping industry and in these agencies. 581 00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:14,320 There aren't always people who understand who even know how to 582 00:31:14,320 --> 00:31:17,560 operate on Instagram, right? If you can't operate Instagram 583 00:31:17,560 --> 00:31:20,080 and you're talking about talking to young people around 584 00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:22,360 safeguarding young people, that's problematic. 585 00:31:23,320 --> 00:31:25,160 It's very problematic. And that those are the 586 00:31:25,160 --> 00:31:28,760 conversations that people aren't necessarily open to always 587 00:31:28,760 --> 00:31:30,600 having. It's like, like you want to have 588 00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:32,520 these conversations with young people, but you don't even 589 00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:35,840 understand the platform in itself, let alone the risk 590 00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:40,400 around that platform or what how they're benefiting from using 591 00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:43,840 that platform. So I think that it's, it's a lot 592 00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:45,720 of education pieces all the way up. 593 00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:48,840 And so to Jonathan's point, yes, it's difficult for parents to 594 00:31:48,840 --> 00:31:52,640 stay, to stay in the loop and to stay relevant. 595 00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:57,440 It's difficult, even as service providers to young people, to 596 00:31:57,440 --> 00:32:01,480 stay in the loop and up to the times with how social media is 597 00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:06,440 changing, evolving and moving. Darren, you talked about, you 598 00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:08,360 know, the different campaigns that have been out there in the 599 00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:10,840 campaign that you're helping with Chardonnay, how how 600 00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:15,840 important is, is it for government governments to lead 601 00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:19,480 on this kind of thing? I think it's very important 602 00:32:19,480 --> 00:32:22,000 because they govern our country. They set the standard. 603 00:32:22,280 --> 00:32:23,680 I will give government its props. 604 00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:26,880 A couple months ago, towards the tail end of last year, I was 605 00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:29,440 invited to a round table discussion with other 606 00:32:29,440 --> 00:32:32,840 professionals to discuss social media and young people's mental 607 00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:35,360 health. It was very informative. 608 00:32:35,800 --> 00:32:38,600 We had, you know, department Child and Family Services, 609 00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:43,760 Family Center, Child Adolescent Services, myself and other 610 00:32:43,760 --> 00:32:46,640 organizations at the table. Doctor Dan Kavanaugh was there 611 00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:50,240 to lead the discussion. I think it was mind opening to 612 00:32:50,440 --> 00:32:51,960 the government. But it's just what are they 613 00:32:51,960 --> 00:32:54,040 going to do with this information now that they know 614 00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:57,120 what's happening and people are on board to assist, right? 615 00:32:57,680 --> 00:33:01,200 I think it's going to be a slow changing thing because how do we 616 00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:04,720 go about it in a way that is seen positive and not 617 00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:07,320 detrimental, right? Because the young people are our 618 00:33:07,320 --> 00:33:10,080 future. And you know, my generation as 619 00:33:10,080 --> 00:33:13,080 well, the 90s babies in early 2000s, it's like, all right, you 620 00:33:13,080 --> 00:33:15,920 know, we want to keep you and we're going to vote people that 621 00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:18,120 align of our values and our belief systems, right? 622 00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:20,240 So it's harder. We do it in a way that we can 623 00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:23,200 steal, make sure that the young people understand that we're 624 00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:25,240 working for them and not against them. 625 00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:28,760 So again, like Darren said, like I've said, it's about bringing 626 00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:31,400 all the different stakeholders together to have this 627 00:33:31,400 --> 00:33:33,880 conversation and figure out what's going to work best for 628 00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:36,160 our community. Because Bermuda's a special 629 00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:38,520 place. We're not like the UK, We're not 630 00:33:38,520 --> 00:33:40,760 like Australia, the States or Canada, right? 631 00:33:40,760 --> 00:33:42,480 We're very unique. We're a melting pot. 632 00:33:42,680 --> 00:33:45,000 So what's going to work for our demographic of people? 633 00:33:45,160 --> 00:33:48,840 How can this be receptive to our people and how do we bring the 634 00:33:48,840 --> 00:33:51,920 people that need to know the information to the table? 635 00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:55,160 For myself, I can host different workshops or schools can bring 636 00:33:55,160 --> 00:33:58,720 me in, and it's always the parents that somewhat know the 637 00:33:58,720 --> 00:34:01,000 information already that are there and they're going to ask 638 00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:03,640 more questions to fine tune their knowledge. 639 00:34:03,840 --> 00:34:06,480 But the parents that need to be there because their children are 640 00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:09,600 actually encountering difficulties online, those are 641 00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:11,080 the ones that are hard to bring out. 642 00:34:11,080 --> 00:34:13,960 So how do we meet them where they're at so they don't feel 643 00:34:13,960 --> 00:34:15,880 penalized? Because a lot of parents might 644 00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:18,840 message me afterwards and say, hey, Chardonnay, I heard you did 645 00:34:18,840 --> 00:34:20,679 a, a workshop. It was phenomenal. 646 00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:23,600 Thank you for doing that. But I was too embarrassed to 647 00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:26,679 come because this, my child's school knows that my child has 648 00:34:26,679 --> 00:34:30,040 been either the bully or the victim or my child's needs have 649 00:34:30,040 --> 00:34:32,320 been exposed. So how can I work with you 650 00:34:32,320 --> 00:34:35,239 privately so that I can manage this thing in a private setting 651 00:34:35,239 --> 00:34:37,520 instead of feeling like everyone's looking at me like 652 00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:40,320 I've raised a problem child? Do you know what I mean? 653 00:34:42,040 --> 00:34:45,679 Yeah, yeah, I do. Jonathan, what is it? 654 00:34:45,719 --> 00:34:49,840 Is it up to government to lead? Yeah, I mean, I kind of see 655 00:34:50,120 --> 00:34:52,679 government, too much government can be a problem, but government 656 00:34:52,679 --> 00:34:57,160 can also be a counter to too much capital, too much for 657 00:34:57,160 --> 00:34:59,120 profit. It can be that kind of 658 00:34:59,120 --> 00:35:01,840 democratic counterbalance. So I think that's useful. 659 00:35:02,320 --> 00:35:04,960 I also have concerns just in this conversation, I was 660 00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:09,800 thinking about sovereignty. And right now we're using US 661 00:35:09,800 --> 00:35:13,800 based social media and they are collecting so much data on our 662 00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:15,480 people and people throughout the world. 663 00:35:15,760 --> 00:35:17,760 And they can use that too for surveillance. 664 00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:20,200 They can use that to push campaigns. 665 00:35:20,440 --> 00:35:23,720 We know the US government does use social media and they can 666 00:35:23,720 --> 00:35:27,440 play with the algorithm to push US propaganda basically. 667 00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:30,680 So I'm wondering, is there an argument for us to create a 668 00:35:30,680 --> 00:35:35,280 Caribbean regional social media alternative where we control the 669 00:35:35,280 --> 00:35:39,120 data so that we have sovereignty over our data and we're not 670 00:35:39,120 --> 00:35:41,320 being controlled by overseas? I don't know if. 671 00:35:41,320 --> 00:35:42,840 That would take off. There's still an. 672 00:35:42,840 --> 00:35:44,200 There's still an issue of privacy. 673 00:35:44,200 --> 00:35:46,080 There regardless isn't. There, yeah, but at least if 674 00:35:46,080 --> 00:35:49,960 it's democratically, if it's democratically controlled and a 675 00:35:49,960 --> 00:35:54,080 not-for-profit algorithm. I think that whole issue is a 676 00:35:54,080 --> 00:35:56,520 problem. Whoever does it personally, you 677 00:35:56,520 --> 00:35:59,960 know the access to your privacy. I mean, I, I go online to look 678 00:35:59,960 --> 00:36:03,280 to hire a, a campervan. The next thing I know I'm 679 00:36:03,280 --> 00:36:05,800 getting adverse at campervans. I don't think that's going to 680 00:36:05,800 --> 00:36:10,320 differ whether wherever it comes from, Caribbean, US, Europe or 681 00:36:10,320 --> 00:36:13,360 whatever, because that's how they make the money and it's as 682 00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:14,800 cynical as that. But that's why I'm saying a 683 00:36:14,800 --> 00:36:18,320 not-for-profit Caribbean. Alternative I see maybe? 684 00:36:18,520 --> 00:36:22,200 Where we control the platform. Interesting start up cost might 685 00:36:22,200 --> 00:36:24,360 be interesting. Yeah, but that's just my 686 00:36:24,440 --> 00:36:27,440 socialism kicking in there, so. Nothing wrong with that. 687 00:36:27,520 --> 00:36:30,280 It's a great, it's a really interesting idea, really 688 00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:35,040 interesting idea is, is it possible for a jurisdiction the 689 00:36:35,040 --> 00:36:38,080 size of Bermuda to actually regulate this? 690 00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:41,280 I mean, that's one thing we haven't really discussed, 691 00:36:41,840 --> 00:36:45,120 population of 60,000, A dot in the Atlantic. 692 00:36:45,400 --> 00:36:49,240 Can we regulate it? We don't have the powers of the 693 00:36:49,240 --> 00:36:52,560 Ofcoms in the UK or the Australian government, you know, 694 00:36:52,560 --> 00:36:54,800 it just seems that Facebook wouldn't care. 695 00:36:55,840 --> 00:36:58,560 Well, that comes to sovereignty again, and why I think we need a 696 00:36:58,560 --> 00:37:01,520 regional collective response. Yeah. 697 00:37:01,880 --> 00:37:06,360 I, I, I think that technology is always going to be global and 698 00:37:06,400 --> 00:37:10,560 it's, it's on the global scale. I can't speak to the sovereignty 699 00:37:10,560 --> 00:37:13,840 pieces and if we're going to be able to restrict it or, or all 700 00:37:13,840 --> 00:37:17,440 those things that's outside of the realm in which in which my 701 00:37:17,840 --> 00:37:21,360 study and my work is in. But I will always say that 702 00:37:21,440 --> 00:37:23,680 children and childhood are local. 703 00:37:25,000 --> 00:37:29,560 And those are things that we have the opportunity to, to, to, 704 00:37:29,600 --> 00:37:34,280 to look at how we protect. And so we as a society, as 705 00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:37,920 Bermuda, have the responsibility to protect our children. 706 00:37:38,080 --> 00:37:45,680 And, and, and so looking at how we can best implement things to 707 00:37:45,680 --> 00:37:49,040 protect our young people, I think that is, that's what this 708 00:37:49,040 --> 00:37:51,640 conversation is. It's like, you know, I don't 709 00:37:51,640 --> 00:37:55,760 think we can change what they have, change what they may have 710 00:37:55,760 --> 00:37:58,840 access to. But I think we have the ability 711 00:37:58,840 --> 00:38:01,960 to look at what steps and what protocols and what programs and 712 00:38:01,960 --> 00:38:06,080 what services to protect our parents, to protect our schools 713 00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:10,160 to protect and to set up multiple different areas in 714 00:38:10,160 --> 00:38:14,480 which we can reach our young people, to educate them and to 715 00:38:15,080 --> 00:38:18,040 to put systems in place to protect them when things do 716 00:38:18,040 --> 00:38:19,520 arise. And I think that's where we have 717 00:38:19,520 --> 00:38:21,760 the ability to to create a change here. 718 00:38:22,200 --> 00:38:24,840 So we, we don't go down the regulation route, the 719 00:38:24,840 --> 00:38:29,120 legislation route, we do what you suggest, Chardonnay, about 720 00:38:29,400 --> 00:38:33,200 community involvement, educating the children, children educating 721 00:38:33,200 --> 00:38:36,520 the parents, the parents being educated by people such as 722 00:38:36,520 --> 00:38:42,760 yourselves, such as yourself. What would you see as a 723 00:38:42,760 --> 00:38:47,360 measurement of success? Feedback surveys, that's, that's 724 00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:48,680 one of the biggest things, right? 725 00:38:48,960 --> 00:38:52,480 Also, when another follow up study, another youth mental 726 00:38:52,480 --> 00:38:56,080 health study to follow up to see how they are engaging in social 727 00:38:56,080 --> 00:38:58,320 media now, are they still encountering the bullying and 728 00:38:58,320 --> 00:39:01,400 the anxiety and the other depressive symptomatologies that 729 00:39:01,400 --> 00:39:05,000 you have as a result of just childhood experiences, adversity 730 00:39:05,000 --> 00:39:08,160 and social media? I think Bermuda lacks a lot of 731 00:39:08,160 --> 00:39:09,880 research. So I do take my hat off to 732 00:39:09,880 --> 00:39:13,320 Doctor Dan for being a trailblazer to get research 733 00:39:13,320 --> 00:39:15,320 done, especially for our youth population. 734 00:39:15,320 --> 00:39:17,880 That's amazing. But I think it's, that's any, 735 00:39:17,920 --> 00:39:19,320 the beginning, the tip of the iceberg. 736 00:39:19,320 --> 00:39:22,680 There's so much more that we need to look into when it comes 737 00:39:22,680 --> 00:39:25,720 to our, our own data and community. 738 00:39:25,720 --> 00:39:28,960 Because you know, I am trained in the UK clinically. 739 00:39:29,880 --> 00:39:31,160 So that's different from here, right? 740 00:39:31,160 --> 00:39:33,120 It's different from Canada, different from someone that's 741 00:39:33,120 --> 00:39:36,760 been to the US for school. So in order for us to be best 742 00:39:36,760 --> 00:39:39,880 clinicians and professionals in this field, we have to look at 743 00:39:39,880 --> 00:39:42,320 our data and our trends that are happening in Bermuda. 744 00:39:42,320 --> 00:39:46,920 But we need that data and trends to continue to, to tailor our 745 00:39:46,920 --> 00:39:49,960 programs to see what they need is I mean, working in the field, 746 00:39:49,960 --> 00:39:52,000 you can see the need as a professional. 747 00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:55,360 But I think in order for our community to get a greater 748 00:39:55,360 --> 00:39:58,440 understanding of what different entities like ourselves are 749 00:39:58,440 --> 00:40:00,880 trying to do is to show them the data. 750 00:40:01,160 --> 00:40:03,040 Remedians love to say, well, is it true? 751 00:40:03,040 --> 00:40:05,720 Or I just heard seven. So say, how do we know, right? 752 00:40:06,040 --> 00:40:07,200 Instead of getting from the seven. 753 00:40:07,200 --> 00:40:10,120 So math that, let's show them the statistics that reinforce 754 00:40:10,120 --> 00:40:11,640 the message that we're trying to convey. 755 00:40:12,280 --> 00:40:18,000 I 100% agree. Jonathan what, What would what 756 00:40:18,000 --> 00:40:20,720 would you see as a measurement of success or not? 757 00:40:21,560 --> 00:40:24,600 Well, I mean, I agree we need to know what we want to measure. 758 00:40:24,600 --> 00:40:27,760 So the metrics what as Hardney and Darren were talking about, I 759 00:40:27,760 --> 00:40:29,800 think there's a need for more of that. 760 00:40:32,320 --> 00:40:34,960 We had a lot of metrics from Dan Kavanagh, didn't we, in terms of 761 00:40:34,960 --> 00:40:37,720 mental health? I should just should just 762 00:40:37,720 --> 00:40:41,840 explain here to to the viewers and the listeners that Jonathan 763 00:40:41,840 --> 00:40:45,600 and I did do a pretty in depth four part series on Dan 764 00:40:45,600 --> 00:40:48,280 Kavanagh's research Beyond the stigma. 765 00:40:48,280 --> 00:40:51,800 It's on our it's on our website, thenewsnows.com. 766 00:40:52,240 --> 00:40:55,040 It was fascinating stuff. Sorry, Jonathan, I kind of had 767 00:40:55,040 --> 00:40:56,400 to jump in there and explain that. 768 00:40:57,200 --> 00:41:00,080 No, no, I mean, I was just going to say the how do, how do you 769 00:41:00,080 --> 00:41:02,800 measure critical thought? I I don't know how to do that as 770 00:41:02,800 --> 00:41:06,200 a qualitative or quantitative study. 771 00:41:06,200 --> 00:41:12,800 I'm sure it's possible, yeah. I think, well, I got one, one 772 00:41:12,800 --> 00:41:14,640 last point. I think like obviously like the 773 00:41:14,640 --> 00:41:19,880 layers come to safer in online environments for young people. 774 00:41:20,200 --> 00:41:24,960 So fewer reports in schools and cyber bullying, fewer reports on 775 00:41:24,960 --> 00:41:27,680 involving online harassment and threats. 776 00:41:28,040 --> 00:41:30,200 And then you look at youth well-being right. 777 00:41:30,200 --> 00:41:32,480 And I think that like that's the piece that shot in it was 778 00:41:32,800 --> 00:41:36,800 reduced anxiety around social to social media, improved sleep 779 00:41:36,800 --> 00:41:40,040 habits among teenagers, healthier digital habits. 780 00:41:40,040 --> 00:41:42,720 And so I think these are all small things that are currently 781 00:41:42,720 --> 00:41:46,920 going unchecked. And then we look at like the in 782 00:41:46,920 --> 00:41:50,280 school environments and parent environments through a conflict 783 00:41:50,280 --> 00:41:55,400 due to social position or on social media on gaming, looking 784 00:41:55,400 --> 00:41:59,520 at those things of how we like. Those are old things that can be 785 00:41:59,520 --> 00:42:01,760 done through survey. There's old things that can be 786 00:42:01,760 --> 00:42:05,080 done through a data collection system. 787 00:42:05,720 --> 00:42:08,880 But like we said in Bermuda, we really, really, really want all 788 00:42:08,880 --> 00:42:11,680 levels in all things struggle to collect data. 789 00:42:11,680 --> 00:42:14,560 And so I think that is definitely one of the pieces 790 00:42:14,560 --> 00:42:18,720 data, data drives what the indicators are and what the next 791 00:42:18,720 --> 00:42:22,280 step should be. So strengthening that is, is a 792 00:42:22,280 --> 00:42:26,920 priority to me to under even understand the magnitude of, of 793 00:42:26,920 --> 00:42:30,520 where we're at locally. I know that dad and Chardonnay, 794 00:42:30,520 --> 00:42:32,320 this guys have done a lot of focus groups. 795 00:42:32,560 --> 00:42:35,040 And so we kind of know the areas in which young people are 796 00:42:35,040 --> 00:42:37,240 struggling in relation to social media. 797 00:42:37,240 --> 00:42:39,480 And like what Chardonnay said, it's like what's being 798 00:42:39,480 --> 00:42:43,880 implemented post that post post collecting that data and what's 799 00:42:43,880 --> 00:42:46,400 actually actionable. And that's where I I do put the 800 00:42:46,400 --> 00:42:49,960 government to account and say those are things that they have 801 00:42:49,960 --> 00:42:52,560 the ability to do and to shift and to change. 802 00:42:54,000 --> 00:42:58,080 So just to, to finish this off, because we've had a quite a long 803 00:42:58,080 --> 00:43:01,720 discussion now it seems, and I'm summarising that you agree 804 00:43:01,720 --> 00:43:05,520 social media can cause harm, but you don't agree that there 805 00:43:05,520 --> 00:43:09,600 should be a delay, not a ban. It has to be a delay in getting 806 00:43:09,600 --> 00:43:12,920 access to social media. And you think the priority is a, 807 00:43:12,920 --> 00:43:17,120 a kind of government LED community parent children 808 00:43:17,680 --> 00:43:20,320 campaign. Is that a fair summary? 809 00:43:20,840 --> 00:43:23,720 Yes. After all this, still no 810 00:43:23,720 --> 00:43:27,760 regulation, no legislation, despite what Australia, 811 00:43:27,760 --> 00:43:29,000 Philippines and others are doing. 812 00:43:29,520 --> 00:43:32,560 No, no regulation. Not at this time. 813 00:43:32,560 --> 00:43:35,880 I would say I it's to to me it's, it's a double edged sword. 814 00:43:36,200 --> 00:43:40,080 It's about doing all we can do proactively before we become 815 00:43:40,080 --> 00:43:43,440 reactive, right. Children will be sneaking. 816 00:43:43,480 --> 00:43:45,640 Adolescents are already impulsive as it is. 817 00:43:45,840 --> 00:43:48,920 Why give them more Why add more gasoline to the fire when we can 818 00:43:48,920 --> 00:43:52,520 be proactive about their their relationship if social media? 819 00:43:53,480 --> 00:43:58,120 Final word, Darren. Yeah, I would be afraid to see 820 00:43:58,360 --> 00:44:01,880 the meltdowns if social media was taken away from the everyday 821 00:44:01,880 --> 00:44:05,960 kid at this point, I would actually be terrified to see 822 00:44:05,960 --> 00:44:08,640 what that looked like. As a youth worker, that would 823 00:44:09,000 --> 00:44:10,880 make my job very, very difficult. 824 00:44:12,480 --> 00:44:16,600 It would make my job horrible day-to-day, day in and day out. 825 00:44:16,640 --> 00:44:20,520 And I think that I think that there are ways to, to build them 826 00:44:20,520 --> 00:44:26,720 to better navigate and prepare and, and to cope with that world 827 00:44:26,920 --> 00:44:29,960 that they're in. Jonathan, your final words. 828 00:44:30,240 --> 00:44:34,080 You know, when we first pitched the idea of doing this talk on a 829 00:44:34,080 --> 00:44:38,520 social media ban, my gut, my reaction, my instinct was 830 00:44:38,560 --> 00:44:42,160 support a social media ban. Then in preparation for this, I 831 00:44:42,160 --> 00:44:44,640 did some reading and I read about it and I thought about it 832 00:44:45,000 --> 00:44:48,400 and now I kind of concur with Darren and Chardonnay that I 833 00:44:48,400 --> 00:44:51,440 don't think a social media ban will really solve the issues. 834 00:44:52,800 --> 00:44:55,160 Now Australia, Philippines, they're doing it. 835 00:44:55,480 --> 00:44:57,400 That's an experiment. We can kind of see how that 836 00:44:57,400 --> 00:44:59,720 goes. Maybe the data from that will 837 00:44:59,720 --> 00:45:02,880 change my mind again. But at the moment I, I kind of 838 00:45:02,880 --> 00:45:04,640 agree. I don't think a social media ban 839 00:45:05,120 --> 00:45:06,640 will. It's not a silver bullet. 840 00:45:07,400 --> 00:45:11,080 We need to focus on critical thinking and education and 841 00:45:11,080 --> 00:45:13,600 addressing things in our community first. 842 00:45:14,480 --> 00:45:17,840 Mr. Mayor, before, as Jonathan said, kind of prepping for this, 843 00:45:17,840 --> 00:45:22,440 my, my feeling was very much to put the emphasis back on the on, 844 00:45:23,120 --> 00:45:26,360 on the companies themselves to fix things. 845 00:45:26,360 --> 00:45:29,800 But listening to you guys, I don't think that's feasible. 846 00:45:30,120 --> 00:45:32,640 And I think you're right, sort of more of a grass roots thing 847 00:45:32,960 --> 00:45:36,480 to build awareness, but it's gotta be everybody and it's 848 00:45:36,480 --> 00:45:39,480 gotta be 1 message. Yeah, yeah. 849 00:45:39,680 --> 00:45:44,080 But that's that's a priority. Yeah, a priority, I agree, along 850 00:45:44,080 --> 00:45:46,000 with so many other priorities, unfortunately. 851 00:45:47,640 --> 00:45:49,040 That's a fascinating conversation. 852 00:45:49,040 --> 00:45:51,800 I really appreciate you, all of us, all of you joining us. 853 00:45:52,200 --> 00:45:54,200 It's a, it's a great shame we lost Sandy. 854 00:45:54,960 --> 00:45:57,880 I'm sure this conversation isn't going to go away and we'll be 855 00:45:57,880 --> 00:46:01,160 doing this six months down the line again, especially if 856 00:46:01,160 --> 00:46:04,120 there's any test results or any early results come out of the 857 00:46:04,120 --> 00:46:06,520 Australia experiment as Jonathan called it. 858 00:46:06,520 --> 00:46:09,920 And it is a bit of an experiment to see how the kids are getting 859 00:46:09,920 --> 00:46:12,320 on there. Really appreciate your help. 860 00:46:13,320 --> 00:46:16,000 Hopefully you know people will listen and learn from this. 861 00:46:16,280 --> 00:46:17,640 Thank you very much and all the best all. 862 00:46:18,040 --> 00:46:18,760 Right. Thank you. 863 00:46:19,360 --> 00:46:21,200 OK. Bye.