Welcome to a special episode of The News Navigators with me,
Jeremy Deacon. And me, Jonathan Starling.
We're doing a first for us. We've got five people on.
That's quite exciting and a little bit daunting technology
wise. Me and Jonathan aren't
necessarily the best in that department, but also something
special because with five people on, we wanted to do go go away
from the norm of what we do and have a a round table discussion.
And on this, on this instance, a round table discussion on social
media and whether there should be a ban or more likely a delay
in the age of people getting access to social media.
Now this obviously follows on from what's happening in
Australia, in the Philippines, etcetera, but we wanted to look
in a bit more detail. So joining me is Doctor Sandy De
Silva, who's a Bermuda registered clinical psychologist
and the executive director of Family Centre, Sade Rawlins,
who's a child and adolescent mental health specialist, and
Darren Woods who's a youth overreach manager at the
Ministry of National Security. They're all experts on this
subject, aren't you? So we really, really wanted to
hear your views. As I mentioned, I think
Australia was the first to implement this.
The Philippines followed. In the UK, at the moment,
there's a big discussion on whether this should happen.
I think at the moment their approach tends to focus on the
duties of the platforms themselves to protect children,
such as enforcing age limits. And in the United States,
there's been moves to try and get under 16 restrictions, but I
believe they've been blocked in the courts.
Virginia, I think was one such place where that happened.
But setting the scene a little bit, where do you guys stand on
a social media ban or a delay till you're 16 years old?
Who wants to start standing? Put you on the spot all.
Right. You know, I've, I've thought
long and hard about this, this subject because certainly when
Australia was announcing it, it obviously touches on the work
that we do at Family Center. And then I'm also a mom and an
aunt and a godmother and you know, and so I've thought a lot
about it. And so for me, there's pros and
cons and maybe I'll just kind of hit a couple of them because
certainly I'm sure the whole discussion, you know, it is
going to just cover the of it. I hope it.
Will, Yeah. Yeah.
And certainly we've got Darren and Chardonnay here to to chime
in as well in terms of what you know some of these arguments or
against. So I would say, let me just, I
guess kick it off by saying that my concern about a ban is that
people will use it to replace the other things that.
We're going to have little issues here by the looks of
things, Andy. So you just froze that.
Do you want to just repeat what you said last few seconds?
Just trying to reconnect, is that better?
We can hear you. OK, apologies.
This is what happens when you ask me to go first.
I won't do it again. So what I was saying is, I guess
one of my biggest concerns is that a social media ban, people
may look at it as a way to also then use it to to prevent doing
the other things that we really should be doing, right?
So. We seem to be having a few
technical issues here with Sandy.
We'll wait until a couple of moments till she comes back on.
All right. She's reconnecting technical
problems. Darren, what do you think?
What's your overall view on this?
Sure. I think, I think I'm aligned
with Sandy in in this is that we don't need to look at this as
like a blunt criminal style ban of social media for young
people. I think that like if you look at
the contacts, I think we need to have stronger protection.
We need to have stronger parental control.
We need to have stronger, like you know, Australia and other
places, stronger platform accountability whilst keeping
our young people and potentially keeping our young people safe.
So I think that the correct system of it, even potentially
putting a ban, it leaves a lot of risk on the young people from
a bad perspective. You know what I mean?
It's like these guys are are excited about using them, using
these platforms. I think some of these platforms
there, there are benefits for our young people who are under
the age of 16. And then I can also see in the
with the young people that I work with that there are
challenges and there are a lot of risks as well with some of
the platforms that our young people are using.
And so looking at strengthening, the strengthening and putting
accountability back onto the apps, putting it back onto
parents in what their kids are viewing and what their kids have
access to, I think that's a step.
And then I also think the education to young people on
these platforms and the rest associated with these platforms
at at a younger age and at all levels is crucially important in
the process as well. So, Donnie, what's your view?
I think her, I don't think that the conversation should be on
ban versus no ban. I think that the most important
question is whether or not children are developmentally and
emotionally ready to engage with social media in a healthy way.
So as we know, social media is not going anywhere.
I think we have to be more proactive instead of reactive
when it comes to bands. I think that's a reactive
strategy because children will find a way.
So I can speak from personal experience.
When Facebook first came out, there was no age restrictions,
right? So I'm sure in my age here, I
need to go 30 this year. And when they put the age
restrictions on, all you have to do is some quick maths to change
your age and then you can still have an account, right?
What they're finding overseas is that children are doing those
things, right? And you can't control that
either. So it's about what education are
we providing these kids? What education are we providing
the parents on both the the pros and the cons of social media?
Because there are pros in the sense of it's a way for us to
all connect. Think of the pandemic, right?
We couldn't be around anyone. So the best way to be with
people by their loved ones and near or far was through using
technology, right? But there's this risk with that.
So it's about educating the children on the risk and also
building the resilience in it because you can provide as much
education as you want, but sometimes you will so encounter
an adverse experience online. So how do we build the
resilience in the kids as well as the parents to not have them
deter from those things happening again?
Also, with education comes open and honest conversations from
our children. So if they do encounter
adversity online or have an unfortunate experience, they're
going to be more forthcoming with it, right?
I do think that a lot of this has to go back to the website
and tech developers because they do understand that social media
is addictive, right? They, they make, they make the
algorithms to be that way. So it's about, OK, if we know
that children are very impressionable and their brains
get hooked on things and they like the instant gratification
that social media has for them, what can the the tech developers
do to help limit that instant gratification so children can
still be in the real world? Also, what accountability are we
putting on the parents when it comes to educating their
children, having proper boundaries around that?
The American Academy of Pediatrics just did a study that
came out and said that, you know, even having screen time
balance for kids, that's still not enough, right?
Because there's the brains are still processing the information
overall. So I think the literature is
constantly changing. So we have to definitely stay on
top of that. And that's when professionals
have to advocate and provide the spaces for people to learn and
grow because it is something that isn't going anywhere.
It's just going to get bigger and bigger and more demanding as
time goes. Jonathan, our resident expert.
Yeah, I largely concur with what Darren and Chardonnay have said.
One thing Chardonnay said was that they're addictive and the
algorithms are designed that way.
And that's how I think about social media in, in relation to
an age ban because you know, you can't buy alcohol till you're
18. You can't, although the whole
cannabis situation is a bit up in the air at the moment.
You couldn't purchase cannabis until you were 21 because the
idea was that, you know, the brains are still developing.
And until it's fully mature, it's easy to kind of get
hijacked and really addictive, though I and even though we have
those age limits on alcohol and stuff, people still found a way
to get around them. But I do think the age limits
are still useful. But I do agree that the key
thing is having education. I know, I believe they teach
about cyberbullying in, in the schools.
And I do think they talk, talk about, you know, predators in
schools as well. And I, I don't know if they're
teaching about healthy social media usage, how to actually use
the Internet in a healthy, productive way.
I do have concerns that if we do ban it, you know, if, if a kid
is then subverting it and going on to social media anyway, are
they going to come and tell their parents if they find
something which is dangerous, if they come across cyberbullying
or predator, they might be quiet and not talk about it and that's
problematic. My bigger concern is about
people who are differently abled.
There are some people who, well, our society is not very disabled
friendly. So there are some disabled
people who their only real, real window into society is through
social media. So how do we balance that?
You know, a 12 year old quadriplegic who can't go to
school but can't access their phone and now you're banning
them from that. It's it's there's a lot of pros
and cons. There's a lot of pros and cons
I. Agree.
I mean, personally, I, you know, I've been listening to the
debate in the UK and I think one of the biggest problems are
these algorithms that feed you so much information and take you
down a rabbit hole. And the information a lot of the
time is not good and it does become addictive.
And it does seem to me that there should be greater emphasis
on the platforms themselves to actually police themselves.
Well, I think that I think that might be asking too much of them
from what we've seen so far. I mean, what harm are we trying
to reduce here? I think before we answer that,
we have to keep on talking about the fact of why it becomes
addictive to start, right? So we've touched on it slightly,
but I think that it's important that we understand that social
media is so compelling because it activates the brain's reward
system, right? So as adults, we know we can put
the phone down as you've dreamed, scrolled for a while.
Children's brains are still developing.
Those brains have impulse control.
They they lack judgement, they lack emotional regulation.
They have the self esteem pieces and identity and they're looking
for the pair approval. So social media, you know,
agencies, they feed off of that, right?
So every like comment, message, streak or notification creates A
dopamine response in the brain, right?
So as we know, dopamine is connected to rewards,
motivation, anticipation and habit formation.
So this becomes the thing that they always have to do, which is
why you can tell a child put your phone down, but they heard
the phone Ding off. They're like, I have to answer
it. Whereas parents would be like,
it's not that it's not that needy, but for them it is
because their brains are interpreting it differently as
they're still growing and developing, right?
The issue isn't just the pleasure of getting the reward
system activated itself. It's the cycle of anticipation.
So like who liked my post? Did they reply?
What did I miss? What's next?
Those things of what you know, it makes children think, I'm
sorry, adults think, OK, my child's not becoming addicted to
this. So how can we curb there's
there's behaviors, right? It's not always because they're
weak or undisciplined. It's because the design is
intentionally pervasive for these children.
Persuasive. Sorry for these kids.
Darren, what? What?
What harm are we trying to reduce here, do you think?
Yeah, I think I, I, I agree with what Chardonnay said.
I think that when you look at the key harms in this area,
you're looking at the mental health impacts.
And so that's briefly what's the consistent comparison to curated
lifestyles, the pressure for popularity or the fear of
missing out? You're looking at those
validation. It's one of those things is that
kids start to be be validated by social media likes by by
comments. They are are validated and
that's what they build their presence on in those things.
So young people are creating and forming their identity based on
social media platforms. And and it's not just young
people. This is young people.
We can go on this 16, but there are many adults to this day at
struggle with the same things that we're we're we're Speaking
of. Then you look at the cyber
bullying, cyber bullying and online harassment, which are
things which I can say is like, what are people doing and what
are schools doing? That's something that that in
the programs that I work with and programs that I know
Chardonnay is working with and other groups and family centre,
they actually have sessions that kind of not work with young
people on a few of those different things.
And, and, and you have to because it's so prevalent.
Other things is the exposure to harmful or adult content.
Yeah. And so that's violence, that's
pornography, that's the self harm content, the self, the self
hate speech, the misogyny drug of other criminal activity from
mine for in my area on the gang wild introduction team, which I
work, we work with, it's the music, it's the language, it's
there's other things that, like we said, the algorithm are
constantly pushing at our young people at that undeveloped age,
brain age. So these platforms are built to
keep attention, not to protect their childhood.
And it's difficult to protect the childhood.
And then you look at the sexual exploitation and grooming.
So there's other harms that our young people really are look
looking at and then kind of the sleep disruption and the
addiction pieces. So those to me are those key
pillars of of harm that young people are exposed to whilst on
social media. And it's not just young people
that young people specifically for this conversation that we're
talking about, but that's also I think this are very similar
things for adults as well in some of those categories that we
struggle with as as everyday people in social media as well.
Jonathan, just before I come on to you, I should explain to our
viewers and listeners that unfortunately we seem to have
lost Sandy to Silva at the moment.
Hopefully she'll be able to, she'll be able to rejoin us
having shared Internet problems. Well, though I'm not going to
ask you that question. I'm going to ask you when it
comes to things like rights and responsibilities, who carries
the burden? I mean, as a parent, I feel that
I should carry the burden, but there is kind of three kind of
key tensions here. You've got child safety, haven't
you, versus autonomy and expression, freedom of
expression. You got parental responsibility
versus platform responsibility, and then you've got the
government involved. Whether you should have
government regulation and whether there's practical
enforceability here. What are your views?
If if there is who? Who bears the burden if we're
not going to have a delay or a ban, Who bears the burden to
make sure our children are not exposed to all the things that
Darren just outlined? Well, I mean, of course there's
going to be parental responsibility involved, but we
also have to understand there's a lot of economic inequality and
that leads to some people simply don't have the time to parent
the way that say a middle class family could.
They're working 2 shifts or they're working a shift where
they're just so exhausted when they get home.
That is very easy just to, you know, use the TV as a babysitter
or and the child a phone because it keeps them quiet.
You're tired from work. So there is that aspect.
We've had the breakdown of the extended family unit where we
had generations working together.
So that doesn't exist anymore. In the absence of that, the the
government does represent the democratic will of the people.
So it does have the responsibility to kind of step
in to safeguard in a degree. Whereas the social media,
they're, they're private for profit enterprises.
The algorithm is for profit and click bait, hate things,
controversial things are what drives clicks, which drives
profit and undermines, well, democracy as a whole in terms of
journalism as well. So there's a whole series of
aspects involved. I don't like the idea that the
social media and algorithms are for profit.
I think they should be a not-for-profit.
But, you know, I don't think we're going to exactly convert
Facebook into a not-for-profit overnight.
Instagram. Now at least, Bermuda's not
going to be able to do that. Darren, what are you?
What are your thoughts on that? Where does the burden of
responsibility lie? I think it's it like, like
Jonathan then said, it's such a, a nuanced puzzle piece there.
And burden is it can't be 1 sector.
I think that multiple sectors have to take responsibility in
different ways in order to protect our young people.
And, and, and I don't think that parents cannot monitor at all.
Parents have multiple children, parents are not always familiar
with how apps are updated, how apps are changing, the apps that
their kids are using, the apps that their kids are following.
Children, like we all said, create signature accounts, they
can hire apps, they can use friends devices like they'll
find a way in order to to figure out how to get on these
platforms. And so I think it, it's, it's
it's a tough, it's a tough fix. I don't know.
I don't, I don't have the answer in like in specifically in who's
responsible for fixing this. I think it's going to take
schools. I think it's going to take
community. I think it's going to take
parent responsibility. I know the government has to be
involved and and different things and people have to be
involved in order to see some type.
Of so Donnie, I know you, you disappeared for a for a second
there, but just to repeat the question, who has the rights and
responsibilities? Who carries the burden here?
The the child safety versus autonomy and expression to the
parents versus the platform? What about government regulation
and practical enforceability? Which side do you lie on?
I think it's a community effort. I think it's a collective
approach from everyone. Now, we do know that, you know,
the social media tech companies aren't probably going to side
with the naysayers like ourselves or like parents or
government agencies. But I think it takes to have
round table discussions with the professionals in each individual
country and jurisdiction to look at the trends that we're having
in our own individual communities and what can we do?
Like I started off, I don't think the conversation is about
ban or no ban. It's about being proactive,
active to fully ensure that our children are equipped when it
comes to managing social media and what to do if they encounter
adversity online, whether it be cyber, bullying, grooming,
sexting, viewing harmful content and things of that nature.
Because social media is a double edged sword.
We have proactive measures. My master's dissertation spoke
to social media and self harm. Whereas it's a 5050 in the sense
of if you are a child who does self harm, you can use social
media as a way to cope because it's community, right?
And another side of it is you can actually learn different
methods how to conceal yourself harming as well.
So it's about really equipping your child with the safe space
and the community to have these conversations.
And the knowledge about that, right?
Most of these parents these days, they have no idea about
how TikTok works or Snapchat and things of that nature because
they're new, they're developing. My parents definitely had no
clue about these things when I was growing up.
All we knew was BlackBerry Messenger before WhatsApp,
right? So it's about making sure that
we have the education because knowledge is power.
And I think that it's a duty for government as well as
professionals in the field to provide the spaces for that.
Like Garen's, like Darren's said, sorry, myself, Darren
Family Center, we all do different workshops.
You know, I have a digital Wellness program to provide the
education not just for the parents, but for the children.
We know that when teenagers especially, sometimes it's
better for them to have those conversations with an unbiased
third party like ourselves versus having the conversation
with mommy and daddy. Because when mommy and daddy
says it, it's like I wrote, I don't want to hear it.
They don't understand. But speaking to a professional,
we do understand why you like social media.
We get why your brain is attracted to these things and
why you need that. But like for girls, for example,
like Darren touched on briefly, he said that you know, self, the
self esteem piece comes out right.
So speaking to another woman who understands social media might
say, OK, I can listen to her and not develop body dysmorphia.
If I do have body dysmorphia already, she can provide me the
coping strategies to work through it so I can have a
better, healthier relationship with technology.
It's about improving the relationship and not necessarily
taking it away because you don't want to Createspace where
children are then hiding what they're doing.
Because if they do and hunt or harmful event or something
that's going to be detrimental to their overall Wellness and
mental Wellness. They're not going to come forth
and say that thing. They're going to suffer in
silence. So would you rather have a group
of individuals suffering in silence or more children coming
forward speaking about what they're on, what they're
encountering, or how to be resilient?
Teenagers go to their peers before they go to adults.
So if we can train and have different ambassadors like
teenagers that can help their appears, then it makes a blanket
of a protective layer for them instead of just saying, OK, take
it away completely. Because research does show if
you take the device completely due to your child, you know
going beyond screen time or you know, interacting with the
devices inappropriately, it does more harm and breakdown to your
relationship with your child versus the actual them
understanding why the phone's being taken.
How feasible is it to train or educate that many people though,
in what would have to be a relatively short space of time
to protect against the harms that we we've talked about?
Isn't it just easier taking one course of action?
No, I, I don't think so. I think you have to be dedicated
to do it. When I wrote, I love all things
social media and youth mental health.
That is my thing. So when I wrote my digital
Wellness program, I didn't just write it for the, for the
children to benefit from it because I have a primary school
model, a middle school and a high school.
I also did it for the parents as well, right?
Because if I can educate 5 parents, they can take that and
spread that knowledge and information on to their friends
or say like, you know, to the school.
Hey, I did a workshop of Chardonnay.
She was great. She taught me about, you know,
how to do parental gun controls, how to speak to my kids about
this. You should bring it in for PTA.
It's about right of mouth. We know Bermuda, word of mouth
goes a long way and people are now starting to realize the the
impacts of social media rather not just because of adversity,
but my child staying up all night gaming and now the next
morning they're very grumpy or they're falling asleep in class.
What do we do? We're starting to see these
things become real and not just watching it on like CNN or BBC
because in Bermuda we tend to have a delayed response when it
comes to things, a delayed impact because we get things
later than other parts of the world.
But it is happening here. So it takes people to, you know,
be forced on forthcoming and I call you guys have to have this
conversation. And I'd say let's bring some
experts who want to talk about it because if one person knows
something, they can spread it to the next person in the game of
telephone, you know, helps in this regard.
What are your thoughts on that, Darren?
I, I, I, I think that that public education is something
that like we, we, we view as this big like task and it's some
difficult thing, but I think it happens organically and I think
that it's possible. So I think if we're looking at
at putting, I think things just need a driver and if there's
interest and I think the government should be that driver
of the public education pieces. I know we have Sloan who does
work on cyber bullying in the schools and I know she has
various platforms that that, that, that, that that start to
do that work. And I think that if Bermuda's
seeing Bermuda, it needs to see more of like the impact and
understanding impact that this could be and is having on
different young people in our community.
And so you're looking at parent education, you're looking at
parent support. You need to, we need to be more
targeted in the approach of people that are working with
young people and, and meeting young people where they're at to
teach them this information. And so looking at like how, how
algorithm, sorry, look at young people, what they see teaching
parents on cyber bullying and the warning signs, the online
grooming, the health screening and boundaries being placed.
And then it's, it's meeting the youth where they're at to
educate the young people. We have, I have three sessions
in, in programming that I have with, with over 160 young people
around the island yearly. And we do something on my
algorithm. You know, what is my algorithm?
That's a three session topic that breaks down and, and really
takes young people just by starting pulling out their
phones. Most of them have them and, and
what's the first three things that come up on your algorithm?
Let's debrief that and let's look at that and let's look at
how that's affecting you. Look how that's affecting you
emotionally. Let's look at what you're
putting into your body and what you're putting into your system
and how you're viewing it and breaking those things down.
And then comes public awareness, health campaigns, campaigns.
And so I am running to stop the violence campaign locally, which
which puts out different pieces and puts things on a larger
scale locally. And I think it's, it's very
similar to if we were doing a drinking and driving or mental
awareness or anti smoking. These campaigns that are pushed
and that are allowed and that that have that impact bring
awareness forward through to people.
And then I think like again it it comes down to platform
accountability. But that's the hard to ask.
These are multi billion dollar companies that he is speaking
about here. I think we all can all agree
that it's not on the young people to fix the issue
themselves and the burden doesn't lie on them that it
should, but lie on others to do that.
I think that's very true. Yeah.
We must remember that they're almost victims.
Yeah. In many ways of of a highly
addictive. Yeah, thing I don't know about a
phrase. I'm, I'm kind of interested.
Chardonnay and and and Darren have talked about a lot about
parental responsibility and the community responsibility.
You made the point that if you're working 2 shifts, if
you're both parents are working or if you're a, a single parent,
that's a hell of a responsibility to put on
somebody, isn't it? You know, I just wonder from
your point of view, is that practical?
It seems not necessarily practical to me.
Well, I'm worried that we're treating symptoms, putting band
aids, rather than dealing with the core issues.
And to me that is, is our way of life sustainable?
Does it even make sense that we are so tired and we have such
economic inequality, Even our approach to consumerism, which
is most of what our society is based on, is that healthy?
I don't think it is. I think we need champions to to
lead this conversation, to say we need to rethink the way we're
doing our economy, our society, everything.
I mean, even with the social media and the algorithm, they're
controlled by, you know, the tech Bros, which are
billionaires who are disconnected from our way of
life. And they are able to kind of
control what we think and they can censor critical voices, they
can bump the manosphere and toxic masculinity and anti
feminism and a whole bunch of things.
So that we have, there are big problems that we need to
address. And I think the key is to have
citizens that can think critically.
And that's where education should play the role.
But at the same time we have the social medias cannot.
Not necessarily dumbing us down but preventing us to think
critically. I know so many people who use
ChatGPT to organise a meeting rather than just to think how to
do a meeting you. Know totally agree so that when
you're 14. Lack of critical thinking going
forward that we just need to address as a society.
But when you're 14 years old, how, how much ability do you
have to have to be able to think critically by yourself and say,
oh, that's the algorithm. How, how, how, how can hard
pressed parents think critically about it as well without some
help, maybe without some regulation or even legislation
to make them aware of it? It seems to me to be a kind of a
vicious circle. I mean, to be honest, and I know
we're talking about age and the and the social media impact on
youth, but to be honest, the youth have grown up with social
media. They understand it better than
most of those baby boomers. They're the ones who got all
with the fake news over COVID and Trump.
I think if anything we need some social media education for the
40 and above to be honest. The.
Point though, I actually think. Like what you're saying,
Jonathan, is a critical point is that young people, yeah, we have
to remember that our young people are navigating in this
space. They're navigating in this
world. It's very different even from
how myself and Chardonnay as as young adults, almost still young
adult, I guess I like to call myself that are in this space
how we grew up. It's different, you know what I
mean? And so they're navigating this
space. So even myself, I have to stay
educationally relevant, like I need to know what apps they're
using. I need to know what the music
that they're listening to. I need to understand like what
TikTok trends and different things are happening and are on
trend with young people in order to meet and service the young
people that we're working with and, and, and in the service
industry and in the helping industry and in these agencies.
There aren't always people who understand who even know how to
operate on Instagram, right? If you can't operate Instagram
and you're talking about talking to young people around
safeguarding young people, that's problematic.
It's very problematic. And that those are the
conversations that people aren't necessarily open to always
having. It's like, like you want to have
these conversations with young people, but you don't even
understand the platform in itself, let alone the risk
around that platform or what how they're benefiting from using
that platform. So I think that it's, it's a lot
of education pieces all the way up.
And so to Jonathan's point, yes, it's difficult for parents to
stay, to stay in the loop and to stay relevant.
It's difficult, even as service providers to young people, to
stay in the loop and up to the times with how social media is
changing, evolving and moving. Darren, you talked about, you
know, the different campaigns that have been out there in the
campaign that you're helping with Chardonnay, how how
important is, is it for government governments to lead
on this kind of thing? I think it's very important
because they govern our country. They set the standard.
I will give government its props.
A couple months ago, towards the tail end of last year, I was
invited to a round table discussion with other
professionals to discuss social media and young people's mental
health. It was very informative.
We had, you know, department Child and Family Services,
Family Center, Child Adolescent Services, myself and other
organizations at the table. Doctor Dan Kavanaugh was there
to lead the discussion. I think it was mind opening to
the government. But it's just what are they
going to do with this information now that they know
what's happening and people are on board to assist, right?
I think it's going to be a slow changing thing because how do we
go about it in a way that is seen positive and not
detrimental, right? Because the young people are our
future. And you know, my generation as
well, the 90s babies in early 2000s, it's like, all right, you
know, we want to keep you and we're going to vote people that
align of our values and our belief systems, right?
So it's harder. We do it in a way that we can
steal, make sure that the young people understand that we're
working for them and not against them.
So again, like Darren said, like I've said, it's about bringing
all the different stakeholders together to have this
conversation and figure out what's going to work best for
our community. Because Bermuda's a special
place. We're not like the UK, We're not
like Australia, the States or Canada, right?
We're very unique. We're a melting pot.
So what's going to work for our demographic of people?
How can this be receptive to our people and how do we bring the
people that need to know the information to the table?
For myself, I can host different workshops or schools can bring
me in, and it's always the parents that somewhat know the
information already that are there and they're going to ask
more questions to fine tune their knowledge.
But the parents that need to be there because their children are
actually encountering difficulties online, those are
the ones that are hard to bring out.
So how do we meet them where they're at so they don't feel
penalized? Because a lot of parents might
message me afterwards and say, hey, Chardonnay, I heard you did
a, a workshop. It was phenomenal.
Thank you for doing that. But I was too embarrassed to
come because this, my child's school knows that my child has
been either the bully or the victim or my child's needs have
been exposed. So how can I work with you
privately so that I can manage this thing in a private setting
instead of feeling like everyone's looking at me like
I've raised a problem child? Do you know what I mean?
Yeah, yeah, I do. Jonathan, what is it?
Is it up to government to lead? Yeah, I mean, I kind of see
government, too much government can be a problem, but government
can also be a counter to too much capital, too much for
profit. It can be that kind of
democratic counterbalance. So I think that's useful.
I also have concerns just in this conversation, I was
thinking about sovereignty. And right now we're using US
based social media and they are collecting so much data on our
people and people throughout the world.
And they can use that too for surveillance.
They can use that to push campaigns.
We know the US government does use social media and they can
play with the algorithm to push US propaganda basically.
So I'm wondering, is there an argument for us to create a
Caribbean regional social media alternative where we control the
data so that we have sovereignty over our data and we're not
being controlled by overseas? I don't know if.
That would take off. There's still an.
There's still an issue of privacy.
There regardless isn't. There, yeah, but at least if
it's democratically, if it's democratically controlled and a
not-for-profit algorithm. I think that whole issue is a
problem. Whoever does it personally, you
know the access to your privacy. I mean, I, I go online to look
to hire a, a campervan. The next thing I know I'm
getting adverse at campervans. I don't think that's going to
differ whether wherever it comes from, Caribbean, US, Europe or
whatever, because that's how they make the money and it's as
cynical as that. But that's why I'm saying a
not-for-profit Caribbean. Alternative I see maybe?
Where we control the platform. Interesting start up cost might
be interesting. Yeah, but that's just my
socialism kicking in there, so. Nothing wrong with that.
It's a great, it's a really interesting idea, really
interesting idea is, is it possible for a jurisdiction the
size of Bermuda to actually regulate this?
I mean, that's one thing we haven't really discussed,
population of 60,000, A dot in the Atlantic.
Can we regulate it? We don't have the powers of the
Ofcoms in the UK or the Australian government, you know,
it just seems that Facebook wouldn't care.
Well, that comes to sovereignty again, and why I think we need a
regional collective response. Yeah.
I, I, I think that technology is always going to be global and
it's, it's on the global scale. I can't speak to the sovereignty
pieces and if we're going to be able to restrict it or, or all
those things that's outside of the realm in which in which my
study and my work is in. But I will always say that
children and childhood are local.
And those are things that we have the opportunity to, to, to,
to look at how we protect. And so we as a society, as
Bermuda, have the responsibility to protect our children.
And, and, and so looking at how we can best implement things to
protect our young people, I think that is, that's what this
conversation is. It's like, you know, I don't
think we can change what they have, change what they may have
access to. But I think we have the ability
to look at what steps and what protocols and what programs and
what services to protect our parents, to protect our schools
to protect and to set up multiple different areas in
which we can reach our young people, to educate them and to
to put systems in place to protect them when things do
arise. And I think that's where we have
the ability to to create a change here.
So we, we don't go down the regulation route, the
legislation route, we do what you suggest, Chardonnay, about
community involvement, educating the children, children educating
the parents, the parents being educated by people such as
yourselves, such as yourself. What would you see as a
measurement of success? Feedback surveys, that's, that's
one of the biggest things, right?
Also, when another follow up study, another youth mental
health study to follow up to see how they are engaging in social
media now, are they still encountering the bullying and
the anxiety and the other depressive symptomatologies that
you have as a result of just childhood experiences, adversity
and social media? I think Bermuda lacks a lot of
research. So I do take my hat off to
Doctor Dan for being a trailblazer to get research
done, especially for our youth population.
That's amazing. But I think it's, that's any,
the beginning, the tip of the iceberg.
There's so much more that we need to look into when it comes
to our, our own data and community.
Because you know, I am trained in the UK clinically.
So that's different from here, right?
It's different from Canada, different from someone that's
been to the US for school. So in order for us to be best
clinicians and professionals in this field, we have to look at
our data and our trends that are happening in Bermuda.
But we need that data and trends to continue to, to tailor our
programs to see what they need is I mean, working in the field,
you can see the need as a professional.
But I think in order for our community to get a greater
understanding of what different entities like ourselves are
trying to do is to show them the data.
Remedians love to say, well, is it true?
Or I just heard seven. So say, how do we know, right?
Instead of getting from the seven.
So math that, let's show them the statistics that reinforce
the message that we're trying to convey.
I 100% agree. Jonathan what, What would what
would you see as a measurement of success or not?
Well, I mean, I agree we need to know what we want to measure.
So the metrics what as Hardney and Darren were talking about, I
think there's a need for more of that.
We had a lot of metrics from Dan Kavanagh, didn't we, in terms of
mental health? I should just should just
explain here to to the viewers and the listeners that Jonathan
and I did do a pretty in depth four part series on Dan
Kavanagh's research Beyond the stigma.
It's on our it's on our website, thenewsnows.com.
It was fascinating stuff. Sorry, Jonathan, I kind of had
to jump in there and explain that.
No, no, I mean, I was just going to say the how do, how do you
measure critical thought? I I don't know how to do that as
a qualitative or quantitative study.
I'm sure it's possible, yeah. I think, well, I got one, one
last point. I think like obviously like the
layers come to safer in online environments for young people.
So fewer reports in schools and cyber bullying, fewer reports on
involving online harassment and threats.
And then you look at youth well-being right.
And I think that like that's the piece that shot in it was
reduced anxiety around social to social media, improved sleep
habits among teenagers, healthier digital habits.
And so I think these are all small things that are currently
going unchecked. And then we look at like the in
school environments and parent environments through a conflict
due to social position or on social media on gaming, looking
at those things of how we like. Those are old things that can be
done through survey. There's old things that can be
done through a data collection system.
But like we said in Bermuda, we really, really, really want all
levels in all things struggle to collect data.
And so I think that is definitely one of the pieces
data, data drives what the indicators are and what the next
step should be. So strengthening that is, is a
priority to me to under even understand the magnitude of, of
where we're at locally. I know that dad and Chardonnay,
this guys have done a lot of focus groups.
And so we kind of know the areas in which young people are
struggling in relation to social media.
And like what Chardonnay said, it's like what's being
implemented post that post post collecting that data and what's
actually actionable. And that's where I I do put the
government to account and say those are things that they have
the ability to do and to shift and to change.
So just to, to finish this off, because we've had a quite a long
discussion now it seems, and I'm summarising that you agree
social media can cause harm, but you don't agree that there
should be a delay, not a ban. It has to be a delay in getting
access to social media. And you think the priority is a,
a kind of government LED community parent children
campaign. Is that a fair summary?
Yes. After all this, still no
regulation, no legislation, despite what Australia,
Philippines and others are doing.
No, no regulation. Not at this time.
I would say I it's to to me it's, it's a double edged sword.
It's about doing all we can do proactively before we become
reactive, right. Children will be sneaking.
Adolescents are already impulsive as it is.
Why give them more Why add more gasoline to the fire when we can
be proactive about their their relationship if social media?
Final word, Darren. Yeah, I would be afraid to see
the meltdowns if social media was taken away from the everyday
kid at this point, I would actually be terrified to see
what that looked like. As a youth worker, that would
make my job very, very difficult.
It would make my job horrible day-to-day, day in and day out.
And I think that I think that there are ways to, to build them
to better navigate and prepare and, and to cope with that world
that they're in. Jonathan, your final words.
You know, when we first pitched the idea of doing this talk on a
social media ban, my gut, my reaction, my instinct was
support a social media ban. Then in preparation for this, I
did some reading and I read about it and I thought about it
and now I kind of concur with Darren and Chardonnay that I
don't think a social media ban will really solve the issues.
Now Australia, Philippines, they're doing it.
That's an experiment. We can kind of see how that
goes. Maybe the data from that will
change my mind again. But at the moment I, I kind of
agree. I don't think a social media ban
will. It's not a silver bullet.
We need to focus on critical thinking and education and
addressing things in our community first.
Mr. Mayor, before, as Jonathan said, kind of prepping for this,
my, my feeling was very much to put the emphasis back on the on,
on the companies themselves to fix things.
But listening to you guys, I don't think that's feasible.
And I think you're right, sort of more of a grass roots thing
to build awareness, but it's gotta be everybody and it's
gotta be 1 message. Yeah, yeah.
But that's that's a priority. Yeah, a priority, I agree, along
with so many other priorities, unfortunately.
That's a fascinating conversation.
I really appreciate you, all of us, all of you joining us.
It's a, it's a great shame we lost Sandy.
I'm sure this conversation isn't going to go away and we'll be
doing this six months down the line again, especially if
there's any test results or any early results come out of the
Australia experiment as Jonathan called it.
And it is a bit of an experiment to see how the kids are getting
on there. Really appreciate your help.
Hopefully you know people will listen and learn from this.
Thank you very much and all the best all.
Right. Thank you.
OK. Bye.