1 00:00:12,530 --> 00:00:16,450 Welcome to the News Navigators with me, Jeremy Deacon. 2 00:00:16,850 --> 00:00:21,570 And me, Jonathan Starling. I've got to start off actually 3 00:00:21,850 --> 00:00:23,930 with a bit of an apology to you, Jonathan. 4 00:00:23,930 --> 00:00:27,570 I got it wrong last week. I thought the only public 5 00:00:27,570 --> 00:00:31,930 consultation was the tax credits as part of the Tax Reform 6 00:00:31,930 --> 00:00:34,480 Commission report. I don't think it was. 7 00:00:34,480 --> 00:00:37,240 I think the public consultation was the whole report. 8 00:00:37,560 --> 00:00:40,440 So I'm sorry if I misled you and our listeners. 9 00:00:41,200 --> 00:00:42,480 It's OK. We're, we're human. 10 00:00:42,480 --> 00:00:45,320 We make mistakes. I'm sure I've made mistakes on 11 00:00:45,320 --> 00:00:48,760 the podcast. Well, whatever, but I it was a 12 00:00:48,760 --> 00:00:51,000 bit misleading. So I want to clarify it because 13 00:00:51,000 --> 00:00:55,920 the whole TRC report, I think he's up for consultation waiting 14 00:00:55,920 --> 00:00:58,280 on very quickly. Yeah, maybe I'll quickly. 15 00:00:58,640 --> 00:01:03,120 You and I were both intrigued, I think, about the premier's 16 00:01:03,360 --> 00:01:08,400 speech in the House last Friday about parental responsibility. 17 00:01:10,120 --> 00:01:16,120 He, he basically in, you know, wants to get parents more 18 00:01:16,120 --> 00:01:21,000 accountable for steering away their kids from violent crime. 19 00:01:21,560 --> 00:01:26,080 And he did say there was going to be a legislative review of 20 00:01:26,360 --> 00:01:32,000 the Parental Responsibility Act, which dates back to 2010. 21 00:01:33,040 --> 00:01:35,400 I'm just going to read you a quote, he said. 22 00:01:35,400 --> 00:01:39,280 Recognizing that 15 years have passed since this Act was 23 00:01:39,280 --> 00:01:42,680 brought into operation, I have asked that it be reviewed to 24 00:01:42,680 --> 00:01:45,800 ensure that it continues to provide the legal framework 25 00:01:45,800 --> 00:01:51,040 required for these times and that are helping agencies have 26 00:01:51,040 --> 00:01:55,400 the capacity to fulfil the duties imposed upon them by the 27 00:01:55,400 --> 00:01:58,400 ACT. Now, Jonathan, I read the ACT, 28 00:01:58,400 --> 00:02:04,520 I'm sure you did, but just to quickly recap on it, this I 29 00:02:04,520 --> 00:02:10,400 believe, started the use of antisocial behavior orders known 30 00:02:10,400 --> 00:02:13,880 as Asbos in the UK, which actually have been phased out 31 00:02:14,160 --> 00:02:17,680 just as this Act was coming in. They were being phased out in 32 00:02:17,680 --> 00:02:21,360 the UK and it applies apparently when the child repeatedly 33 00:02:21,360 --> 00:02:25,200 engages in criminal or antisocial behaviour and when a 34 00:02:25,200 --> 00:02:28,600 parent is seen to have failed to take reasonable steps to control 35 00:02:28,600 --> 00:02:32,600 the child. The courts, if you're entering 36 00:02:32,640 --> 00:02:36,600 entering into an ASBO can actually require parents, it 37 00:02:36,600 --> 00:02:39,920 says, to enter a parenting contract with a government 38 00:02:39,920 --> 00:02:42,920 agency. I social services DCFS here I 39 00:02:42,920 --> 00:02:49,160 guess, or something like that. So I think what it seems to say 40 00:02:49,160 --> 00:02:53,680 is that if a kid gets an ASBO and repeatedly breaks the ASBO, 41 00:02:54,080 --> 00:02:56,880 the parents can be also put on a contract to make sure they're 42 00:02:56,880 --> 00:02:59,200 looking after their kids properly and they're showing 43 00:02:59,200 --> 00:03:04,840 some responsibility. What I couldn't find when I 44 00:03:04,840 --> 00:03:08,680 searched was any mention of an ASBO being granted in the 45 00:03:08,680 --> 00:03:11,400 courts. I searched on chat. 46 00:03:11,480 --> 00:03:15,240 I searched on Google chat GPTI searched on Google search on the 47 00:03:15,240 --> 00:03:18,280 Royal Cazette. I couldn't find any record of 48 00:03:18,280 --> 00:03:20,960 it. Which kind of makes me wonder. 49 00:03:22,520 --> 00:03:28,240 Or maybe ask, would evidence of the use or the lack of it tell 50 00:03:28,240 --> 00:03:31,880 us how effective or meaningful it actually was in shaping 51 00:03:31,880 --> 00:03:33,600 policy? On. 52 00:03:34,080 --> 00:03:36,640 Antisocial behaviour and parental accountability. 53 00:03:37,040 --> 00:03:40,040 It probably wasn't just looking at it. 54 00:03:42,480 --> 00:03:44,280 No go. No, I'm just going to say, I 55 00:03:44,280 --> 00:03:47,880 mean, just because we don't have the data doesn't mean that the 56 00:03:47,880 --> 00:03:51,800 data doesn't exist. So it might have been used, just 57 00:03:51,800 --> 00:03:54,600 not necessarily. It might have been used some 58 00:03:54,600 --> 00:03:56,520 more, like a warning, like if you don't do this, we're going 59 00:03:56,520 --> 00:04:01,280 to do this form. But I agree with you, we don't 60 00:04:01,280 --> 00:04:03,360 have the data. So it's hard to see if it has 61 00:04:03,360 --> 00:04:09,400 been a success or failure or how that data might inform how the 62 00:04:09,400 --> 00:04:12,760 premier plans to reform the legislature to reform the 63 00:04:12,760 --> 00:04:14,800 legislation. We, we just don't know to be 64 00:04:14,800 --> 00:04:17,440 honest. Yeah, I was intrigued though, 65 00:04:17,440 --> 00:04:19,000 that I could find no record of that. 66 00:04:19,000 --> 00:04:22,000 And I would have thought that a piece of legislation that 67 00:04:22,000 --> 00:04:25,840 introduced, I suppose if one had been granted great play would 68 00:04:25,840 --> 00:04:29,200 have been made of it. So I'm just wondering if it was 69 00:04:29,200 --> 00:04:31,680 just never used, never in force, like you say, it might have been 70 00:04:31,680 --> 00:04:34,120 a threat, but I know. But what I was, what I was 71 00:04:34,120 --> 00:04:36,760 intrigued about that this is very much antisocial behaviour, 72 00:04:36,760 --> 00:04:39,360 really targeting damage of property. 73 00:04:39,760 --> 00:04:42,560 The Premier in his speech, in his statement in the house, 74 00:04:42,560 --> 00:04:45,880 seems to want to take it a lot further than that. 75 00:04:46,440 --> 00:04:53,800 And well, we'll come on to that as to what we both think now, I 76 00:04:53,800 --> 00:04:56,520 think that parents do have a responsibility. 77 00:04:57,240 --> 00:05:01,320 You know, you and I were brought up to respect others, to respect 78 00:05:01,320 --> 00:05:04,760 the law, to respect other people's property and their 79 00:05:04,760 --> 00:05:08,920 possessions. My kids certainly do that and so 80 00:05:08,920 --> 00:05:13,760 we have the responsibility for that, but how much further we 81 00:05:13,760 --> 00:05:16,600 have the responsibility for is difficult to say. 82 00:05:18,320 --> 00:05:22,720 I mean, I think there's an argument for if, if you could 83 00:05:22,720 --> 00:05:26,280 say a parent has been reasonably negligent. 84 00:05:26,640 --> 00:05:32,040 For example, if the parent knows that their child has a firearm, 85 00:05:32,200 --> 00:05:35,280 has seen the firearm, has reason to suspect the child has a 86 00:05:35,280 --> 00:05:39,520 firearm and hasn't taking any action to do it, then I can see 87 00:05:39,520 --> 00:05:42,720 you being reasonably negligent in that sense. 88 00:05:43,120 --> 00:05:48,400 But for other things I I'm very aware of these kind of parental 89 00:05:48,400 --> 00:05:52,680 accountability approaches to be honest. 90 00:05:53,760 --> 00:05:56,080 Yeah. And I just wonder if it isn't a 91 00:05:56,080 --> 00:05:58,440 bit of an overreach. I mean, there's a key question 92 00:05:58,440 --> 00:06:00,360 here. Well, there's lots of key 93 00:06:00,360 --> 00:06:01,840 questions here that don't answer. 94 00:06:02,960 --> 00:06:05,800 If you've got this kind of parenting contract, if you've 95 00:06:05,800 --> 00:06:09,520 got these court imposed parenting orders, the question 96 00:06:09,520 --> 00:06:14,040 is do they help or simply have pressure already struggling 97 00:06:14,040 --> 00:06:15,760 families? Yeah. 98 00:06:15,760 --> 00:06:19,840 I mean, clients are likely, as you say, families that are 99 00:06:19,840 --> 00:06:23,920 already on the lower end of our social system that are already 100 00:06:23,920 --> 00:06:27,720 struggling, you know? Who are much more likely to not 101 00:06:27,720 --> 00:06:30,760 be able to take responsibility for a child because they are 102 00:06:30,760 --> 00:06:34,520 struggling, you know, and living, you know, where they 103 00:06:34,520 --> 00:06:36,160 live. They'd be working two or three 104 00:06:36,160 --> 00:06:39,160 jobs, single parents, et cetera, et cetera. 105 00:06:39,960 --> 00:06:43,000 On the face of it, it does seem to target could target them 106 00:06:43,000 --> 00:06:45,160 unfairly. Yeah. 107 00:06:45,160 --> 00:06:49,240 I mean, to me, we'll have more bang for your buck if you if 108 00:06:49,240 --> 00:06:52,680 you've pardoned the expression by addressing more the 109 00:06:52,680 --> 00:06:56,040 structural issues of inequality in our society, which are kind 110 00:06:56,040 --> 00:06:59,480 of the root causes for a lot of antisocial behaviors. 111 00:06:59,840 --> 00:07:03,000 That is harder to do. It's a lot harder to do and 112 00:07:03,000 --> 00:07:05,320 you're going to have to have a lot of political will to 113 00:07:05,320 --> 00:07:08,600 withstand the kind of reaction or opposition to addressing 114 00:07:09,000 --> 00:07:11,640 inequality. So in that sense, the parental 115 00:07:11,640 --> 00:07:15,360 accountability things I assume doesn't really kind of modify or 116 00:07:15,360 --> 00:07:18,880 pacify our position and say, look, we are doing something 117 00:07:18,880 --> 00:07:20,520 doesn't matter if it's not effective. 118 00:07:21,160 --> 00:07:23,080 I'm not saying it isn't effective, we don't have the 119 00:07:23,080 --> 00:07:25,320 data, but that's just how I see it. 120 00:07:26,520 --> 00:07:28,760 Well, I agree. And I think that kind of comes 121 00:07:28,760 --> 00:07:34,040 back to the original act in 2010. 122 00:07:34,520 --> 00:07:37,240 Look, we are doing something here. 123 00:07:37,240 --> 00:07:40,280 It is, but then never really followed through. 124 00:07:40,920 --> 00:07:43,640 But you, you were looking at stats for violent crime, weren't 125 00:07:43,640 --> 00:07:47,000 you, earlier on? Well, I was looking specifically 126 00:07:47,000 --> 00:07:51,880 at firearm statistics and the firearm statistics, at least at 127 00:07:51,880 --> 00:07:55,400 that time, they recorded them into four batches, which was 128 00:07:56,640 --> 00:08:00,280 someone being shot or evidence of a firearm being used. 129 00:08:00,280 --> 00:08:02,760 You know, forensic evidence showing gunpowder. 130 00:08:03,160 --> 00:08:07,720 It was gunshots being heard. It was someone being seen with a 131 00:08:07,720 --> 00:08:14,360 gun. And what was the other one in 132 00:08:14,440 --> 00:08:20,600 recovery of a firearm? So yeah, no, go on, go on. 133 00:08:21,600 --> 00:08:25,120 So I was looking at it in context to the 2010 Parental 134 00:08:25,120 --> 00:08:28,960 Act. I can't say that the firearms 135 00:08:28,960 --> 00:08:31,760 were the reason, the reason why we had the Parental Act, but I 136 00:08:31,760 --> 00:08:36,120 think it played into the social kind of ethos at the time. 137 00:08:36,600 --> 00:08:41,039 And of course, 2008 we had the economic crisis, which related 138 00:08:41,039 --> 00:08:45,440 to a lot of economic uncertainty in Bermuda and globally. 139 00:08:46,480 --> 00:08:50,480 And that did seem to have an effect on the social aspect as 140 00:08:50,480 --> 00:08:52,160 well. And if you look at the 141 00:08:52,160 --> 00:08:58,480 statistics, so for example in 2007 there were under 20, it 142 00:08:58,480 --> 00:09:01,240 looked like probably, I don't have the exact data, but it's a 143 00:09:01,240 --> 00:09:02,760 graph. So I'm guessing it looked like 144 00:09:02,760 --> 00:09:09,640 maybe 10 incidents in total. In 2008, there were just under 145 00:09:09,640 --> 00:09:13,720 40 incidents and the biggest growth in there was careful of a 146 00:09:13,720 --> 00:09:18,960 firearm, looked like just under 20 of that or firearms being 147 00:09:18,960 --> 00:09:22,440 seen looked like maybe 10 to 15 on that area. 148 00:09:23,320 --> 00:09:27,120 Then in 2009, in the aftermath of the economic crisis, which 149 00:09:27,120 --> 00:09:31,520 was kind of in the fall of 2008, the firearm statistics just kind 150 00:09:31,520 --> 00:09:34,920 of rock it up. In that time, there were over 80 151 00:09:34,920 --> 00:09:41,280 incidents reported on, including just under 20 people being shot 152 00:09:41,480 --> 00:09:46,200 or forensic evidence of a shooting, about 20 recovery of 153 00:09:46,200 --> 00:09:51,040 firearms, about 20 incidents of a firearm being seen, and in 154 00:09:51,040 --> 00:09:53,360 close to 20 claims of gunshots being heard. 155 00:09:53,960 --> 00:09:56,960 And then in 2010, it just rockets even more. 156 00:09:58,160 --> 00:10:01,000 In 2010, there were just under 200 incidents. 157 00:10:01,320 --> 00:10:05,000 So we've gone from under 20 incidents in 2007 to 80 158 00:10:05,000 --> 00:10:10,000 incidents in 2009 to just under 200 incidents in 2010. 159 00:10:10,840 --> 00:10:15,320 And that included in 2010, forty people being shot or forensic 160 00:10:15,320 --> 00:10:22,520 evidence of a shooting about, let's see, just about 70 161 00:10:22,520 --> 00:10:27,040 instance of gunshots being had. You know, it's just a great 162 00:10:27,040 --> 00:10:31,520 increase in firearms. And so I kind of think that as a 163 00:10:31,520 --> 00:10:35,400 result of that kind of shock or trauma to the society at the 164 00:10:35,400 --> 00:10:39,920 time of easel incidents, in addition to the economic crisis, 165 00:10:40,240 --> 00:10:43,560 I kind of feel that the Perennial Accountability Act 166 00:10:43,560 --> 00:10:47,600 when it was introduced to 2010 could be seen as kind of a knee 167 00:10:47,600 --> 00:10:52,480 jerk conservative reaction to addressing the issue, whether 168 00:10:52,480 --> 00:10:54,560 it's solved the issue. I mean, we're still having 169 00:10:54,560 --> 00:10:57,520 gunshots and all that those. Current murders. 170 00:10:57,560 --> 00:11:02,920 Incorrectly tied into the recent murders that we had on Core 171 00:11:02,920 --> 00:11:06,080 Street just in was that in August. 172 00:11:06,800 --> 00:11:10,680 Few weeks ago, Yeah, well. I'm not saying that the Parental 173 00:11:10,680 --> 00:11:13,640 Accountability Act doesn't work because we don't have the 174 00:11:13,640 --> 00:11:17,280 evidence whether it does or does not, but I'm just seeing it in 175 00:11:17,280 --> 00:11:22,040 that kind of Emilio like. Yeah, that's happening. 176 00:11:23,040 --> 00:11:24,960 I think that's really interesting context. 177 00:11:26,240 --> 00:11:29,640 The one thing that about that though is these are being 178 00:11:29,640 --> 00:11:32,400 carried out, I think it's safe to assume, by gangs. 179 00:11:33,360 --> 00:11:40,440 And so often we hear that gangs offer a kind of family to 180 00:11:40,440 --> 00:11:42,600 children who don't really have a family. 181 00:11:43,440 --> 00:11:49,800 And I do wonder whether the Parental Responsibility Act, 182 00:11:49,800 --> 00:11:56,120 even updated, can solve that, because these families, I think 183 00:11:56,120 --> 00:11:59,000 it's fairly safe to say, are probably lower income families 184 00:12:00,280 --> 00:12:04,160 who already probably lack access to resources as it is. 185 00:12:04,320 --> 00:12:08,840 And I do wonder if punishing them because their 16 year old 186 00:12:08,840 --> 00:12:12,280 has joined a gang because they are not, for whatever reason, 187 00:12:12,280 --> 00:12:20,000 able to provide a family is really targeting the wrong 188 00:12:20,000 --> 00:12:21,440 people. They're the people that actually 189 00:12:21,440 --> 00:12:23,440 need help. Yeah. 190 00:12:23,840 --> 00:12:26,200 And, and I think those assumptions are fairly safe, 191 00:12:26,200 --> 00:12:30,720 Jonathan, don't you? But I just think you're 192 00:12:30,720 --> 00:12:34,880 punishing the people who are already suffering or potentially 193 00:12:35,000 --> 00:12:38,040 doing so. I also feel a lot of this is 194 00:12:38,280 --> 00:12:41,240 cyclical. I mean, as I said, we saw 2008 195 00:12:41,240 --> 00:12:45,120 and the aftermath of that massive economic crisis. 2008, 196 00:12:45,120 --> 00:12:48,400 we just had a massive economic crisis with COVID and the 197 00:12:48,400 --> 00:12:52,760 aftermath that we have a lot of economic uncertainty right now 198 00:12:52,760 --> 00:12:54,880 due to what's happening over in the United States. 199 00:12:55,280 --> 00:12:58,320 And I remember back in the 90s, so there was that was kind of 200 00:12:58,320 --> 00:13:03,840 when the first kind of fear about gang wars really kicked 201 00:13:03,840 --> 00:13:07,720 off and that was in the aftermath of the 1990s recession 202 00:13:07,720 --> 00:13:09,760 as well. So I do think it was to the 203 00:13:09,760 --> 00:13:14,800 economics, I agree with you that it is going to impact the the 204 00:13:14,800 --> 00:13:17,480 less well off lower income families as a whole. 205 00:13:18,080 --> 00:13:22,920 I also think that we are seeing a societal change when people 206 00:13:22,920 --> 00:13:26,600 talk about the breakdown of the family unit with that's kind of 207 00:13:26,600 --> 00:13:30,280 true, we are seeing that, but that's true to the different 208 00:13:30,280 --> 00:13:33,720 economic systems that we have now back in the 90s. 209 00:13:33,720 --> 00:13:37,160 You still have more extended families because of, you know, 210 00:13:37,160 --> 00:13:39,520 people, grandparents and all that looking out. 211 00:13:39,920 --> 00:13:43,960 That kind of went away in the 2000s because more people had to 212 00:13:43,960 --> 00:13:49,160 work to just stay alive, even especially after 2008. 213 00:13:49,560 --> 00:13:51,640 And we're saying that today as well. 214 00:13:52,000 --> 00:13:56,000 So for that atomization of society, the breakdown of 215 00:13:56,000 --> 00:13:58,840 community to a degree, well, also social media. 216 00:13:59,080 --> 00:14:01,600 Yeah, yeah. I think that there was a, 217 00:14:01,600 --> 00:14:04,080 there's a phrase, isn't it takes a village to raise a child. 218 00:14:04,080 --> 00:14:06,480 And I think that village probably seems to be rather 219 00:14:06,480 --> 00:14:07,720 desolated. Yeah. 220 00:14:10,040 --> 00:14:19,160 You know, I do wonder about this law as well, whether question is 221 00:14:19,160 --> 00:14:23,560 it about creating better parents or is it actually a signing 222 00:14:23,560 --> 00:14:27,440 blame. I think whichever way you look 223 00:14:27,440 --> 00:14:30,720 at it, if this law is enacted, if it's updated and properly 224 00:14:30,720 --> 00:14:35,920 enacted, you will find that the reporting will be about blaming 225 00:14:35,920 --> 00:14:44,000 the parents and that that cannot be applicable to 100% of cases. 226 00:14:44,320 --> 00:14:46,680 And I think that could be quite damaging. 227 00:14:47,160 --> 00:14:53,880 And I do wonder how Bermudians or anybody actually feels about 228 00:14:53,880 --> 00:14:56,080 the government stepping into the home. 229 00:14:56,720 --> 00:14:58,800 This is what you're doing. This is what will happen. 230 00:14:58,800 --> 00:15:02,400 You are taking direct action within the home. 231 00:15:03,040 --> 00:15:08,280 And I, I assume that before that happens, there'll be different 232 00:15:08,280 --> 00:15:13,280 steps along the way. But then that begs the question, 233 00:15:13,680 --> 00:15:16,560 do we have enough resources to make sure those steps are 234 00:15:16,560 --> 00:15:20,840 followed repeatedly before we reach the stage of having to 235 00:15:20,840 --> 00:15:24,600 take them to the court? And I don't, I can't answer 236 00:15:24,600 --> 00:15:28,960 that. But it's a big question that 237 00:15:29,320 --> 00:15:33,640 where do we put the effort into the courts or into the resources 238 00:15:33,640 --> 00:15:37,120 needed to help the family to stop this in the first place? 239 00:15:37,760 --> 00:15:41,320 Yeah, I mean, I I'm more into supporting addressing structural 240 00:15:41,320 --> 00:15:44,160 inequalities to reduce me too as a whole. 241 00:15:44,160 --> 00:15:45,840 Yeah, me too. I I. 242 00:15:46,920 --> 00:15:49,880 It is important to note that, I mean, probably. 243 00:15:50,160 --> 00:15:52,520 Well, first I'll just say we don't know exactly what the 244 00:15:52,520 --> 00:15:55,640 Premier is recommending for the reform of the Parental 245 00:15:55,880 --> 00:15:57,520 Accountability Act. We don't know. 246 00:15:58,600 --> 00:16:02,280 Well, it talks about violent crime, hearing their children 247 00:16:02,280 --> 00:16:04,720 away from violent crime. Yeah. 248 00:16:05,520 --> 00:16:07,640 But we don't know exactly how he's going to mend the ACT to 249 00:16:07,640 --> 00:16:10,080 address that, to address those issues. 250 00:16:10,520 --> 00:16:12,520 So I mean the development was in the detail, right? 251 00:16:13,080 --> 00:16:15,320 How's that happened? But I anyway said that because I 252 00:16:15,320 --> 00:16:18,800 don't want to. I am speculating, but I don't 253 00:16:18,800 --> 00:16:20,320 want to put words in the premier's mouth. 254 00:16:20,960 --> 00:16:29,720 But what I am saying is we are in a piano in our history, not 255 00:16:29,720 --> 00:16:32,320 just permuter, but I'm talking especially with what's happening 256 00:16:32,320 --> 00:16:34,880 in America. America's going very much to the 257 00:16:34,880 --> 00:16:39,000 right wing, very socially conservative, and you know 258 00:16:39,120 --> 00:16:40,800 that's going to have an. Influence on Bermuda? 259 00:16:42,200 --> 00:16:46,120 Undoubtedly so. It won't surprise me if more 260 00:16:46,120 --> 00:16:50,200 social conservative ideas are kind of percolating or filtering 261 00:16:50,200 --> 00:16:54,720 into the Bermuda social conscience and that politicians 262 00:16:54,720 --> 00:16:59,440 might react to that. Without being less about giving 263 00:16:59,440 --> 00:17:01,320 resources and more about punishment. 264 00:17:02,080 --> 00:17:04,880 Right, there's some. It's kind of a punitive turn now 265 00:17:04,880 --> 00:17:05,599 to. Come. 266 00:17:05,599 --> 00:17:08,599 Here, it's not any social conservative in my opinion, so 267 00:17:08,599 --> 00:17:12,240 I'm not saying he's doing that. But there is a general term 268 00:17:12,240 --> 00:17:16,440 where the the idea of what is common sense is kind of shifting 269 00:17:16,440 --> 00:17:21,000 to the right and we're planning to kind of situate this in. 270 00:17:21,240 --> 00:17:25,880 We just had there a new leader of the Oba elected Robert King, 271 00:17:26,480 --> 00:17:30,400 and of course he was the shadow minister for national security. 272 00:17:30,920 --> 00:17:33,320 I'm assuming he's going to take that proof, but we haven't heard 273 00:17:33,320 --> 00:17:36,080 yet if there's been a cabinet shuffle in the opposition 274 00:17:36,080 --> 00:17:39,200 benches or who the new sentence are senators might be. 275 00:17:39,520 --> 00:17:43,440 But he also ran as kind of his campaign to get elected to the 276 00:17:43,440 --> 00:17:45,440 OBEA. I'm kind of a law and order 277 00:17:45,440 --> 00:17:49,760 ticket, which was in a sense helped by these instance that we 278 00:17:49,760 --> 00:17:52,720 saw in August. I'm not, I'm just, I have to be 279 00:17:52,720 --> 00:17:55,240 careful Now I have phrased that. I'm just saying it was 280 00:17:55,240 --> 00:17:59,400 advantageous in a sense for his campaign on law and order. 281 00:17:59,400 --> 00:18:01,800 It kind of probably benefited his campaign. 282 00:18:02,200 --> 00:18:06,920 So would you just say that maybe the PRP is responding to that 283 00:18:07,160 --> 00:18:13,400 and trying to blunt any, any momentum that the RBA has on a 284 00:18:13,400 --> 00:18:15,960 new law and order kind of campaign? 285 00:18:16,520 --> 00:18:19,440 Let's. Just no. 286 00:18:19,440 --> 00:18:21,720 I think that's a good point because I've seen that a lot in 287 00:18:21,720 --> 00:18:25,360 politics at the moment. In the UK we just had a massive 288 00:18:25,840 --> 00:18:31,040 March at the right wing, 110,000 people, you know, and you can 289 00:18:31,040 --> 00:18:34,920 see how the politics of Labour has been influenced by the right 290 00:18:34,920 --> 00:18:38,360 wing because the terrified of Nigel Farage getting more than 291 00:18:38,360 --> 00:18:41,640 the toehold he's already got in Parliament, you know, so they're 292 00:18:41,640 --> 00:18:45,400 moving gradually to the right on issues like that. 293 00:18:45,760 --> 00:18:49,160 And, and to an extent the world is doing that as well. 294 00:18:49,160 --> 00:18:52,440 You can see it everywhere. And it's a good point, Jonathan, 295 00:18:52,440 --> 00:18:57,040 whether the the population here will actually want to see more 296 00:18:57,040 --> 00:19:00,880 punitive measures rather than more resources poured into 297 00:19:01,360 --> 00:19:03,600 stopping the thing happening in the 1st place. 298 00:19:03,960 --> 00:19:05,960 It'll be interesting to see how it plays out. 299 00:19:06,040 --> 00:19:08,760 Well, I wonder. I wonder what the medians think, 300 00:19:09,080 --> 00:19:11,440 whether they should help or whether they should pun it. 301 00:19:12,240 --> 00:19:16,200 Well still people tend to like simple answers to complex 302 00:19:16,200 --> 00:19:18,520 issues. But complex issues cannot be 303 00:19:18,520 --> 00:19:22,400 resolved by simple issues. But simple answers for better in 304 00:19:22,400 --> 00:19:25,240 the social media age because you can condense it in like quick 305 00:19:25,240 --> 00:19:28,640 TikTok kind of thing. Exactly little little little 306 00:19:28,640 --> 00:19:32,160 little slogans stop the boat. Doesn't it? 307 00:19:32,280 --> 00:19:36,560 Yeah, solve the issues, but it makes people feel that oh, 308 00:19:36,560 --> 00:19:38,560 that's right, but it's. Yeah, I. 309 00:19:38,840 --> 00:19:42,880 Don't know we need to come. Talking about Make America Great 310 00:19:42,880 --> 00:19:45,880 Again is totally meaningless, but it makes people sound really 311 00:19:45,880 --> 00:19:48,840 pumped up. Yeah, we haven't had that here. 312 00:19:49,800 --> 00:19:53,040 I don't have that here, people who are advocates off that 313 00:19:53,040 --> 00:19:55,320 approach. We don't get that in some of the 314 00:19:55,320 --> 00:19:57,360 xenophobic kind of currents that we have. 315 00:19:58,640 --> 00:20:03,080 I would say that we are seeing an echo of the social 316 00:20:03,080 --> 00:20:06,840 conservative or authoritarian, I would dare say call fascism that 317 00:20:06,840 --> 00:20:09,040 we see in America is having echoes here. 318 00:20:09,320 --> 00:20:12,880 I see it primarily in kind of a Christian nationalist form. 319 00:20:13,120 --> 00:20:15,760 And I think we're going to see more and more of that in the 320 00:20:15,760 --> 00:20:18,920 next few months and years depending on what happens in 321 00:20:18,920 --> 00:20:19,880 America. I mean the. 322 00:20:20,560 --> 00:20:26,760 The murder of Charlie Kirk last year, that certainly has opened 323 00:20:26,920 --> 00:20:30,360 people's eyes to the amount of people who agree with that kind 324 00:20:30,360 --> 00:20:33,160 of sentiment over there. We've seen that in social media 325 00:20:33,160 --> 00:20:36,400 over the last week. It's actually opened. 326 00:20:36,880 --> 00:20:40,440 My eyes to how split America is actually. 327 00:20:40,800 --> 00:20:43,840 Yeah, and we're asking that here as well. 328 00:20:44,840 --> 00:20:47,920 Yeah, yeah, I, I was. I mean, I'd never heard of 329 00:20:47,920 --> 00:20:50,440 Charlie Kirk before he was murdered, I have to say. 330 00:20:50,760 --> 00:20:54,440 But I read the reaction afterwards and it is polarized 331 00:20:54,440 --> 00:20:58,160 inside. I mean, I've been brightening 332 00:20:58,240 --> 00:21:02,760 labs off the far right in America since 2016, so I I was 333 00:21:02,760 --> 00:21:07,360 aware of Charlie Kirk and also Nick Fontes, the leader of the 334 00:21:07,360 --> 00:21:11,080 kind of Griper movement, which is even further to the right. 335 00:21:11,440 --> 00:21:13,560 Anyway, I realized I'm getting sidetracked from Bermuda's 336 00:21:13,560 --> 00:21:16,680 stuff, so. Well, it's going to have an 337 00:21:16,680 --> 00:21:20,320 influence, as you said, as you said, it's bound to have an 338 00:21:20,320 --> 00:21:22,080 influence. I've seen a little bit on social 339 00:21:22,080 --> 00:21:25,520 media a lot, mostly condemning the likes of Charlie Kirk, but 340 00:21:25,520 --> 00:21:27,920 some definitely not, absolutely not. 341 00:21:28,800 --> 00:21:32,280 Anyway, we'll see. I, I do think though, that 342 00:21:32,280 --> 00:21:35,720 coming back to this parental responsibility thing that I 343 00:21:35,720 --> 00:21:38,400 don't, I think I've asked a lot of question, posed a lot of 344 00:21:38,400 --> 00:21:41,240 questions in this quite deliberately, but I think it's a 345 00:21:41,240 --> 00:21:44,880 question of not who is responsible, but it's what do 346 00:21:44,880 --> 00:21:48,520 they need to succeed. Yeah, I. 347 00:21:48,720 --> 00:21:51,280 Mean we're a bunch of, we're a bunch of liberal lefties. 348 00:21:51,280 --> 00:21:52,680 So we're going to criticize for this. 349 00:21:52,680 --> 00:21:56,200 It will be really interesting actually to see what criticism 350 00:21:56,200 --> 00:21:57,480 we get. I hope. 351 00:21:57,520 --> 00:22:02,000 I'd love to hear it. But yeah, I don't favour 352 00:22:02,600 --> 00:22:06,040 punitive action like that because as we've said tonight 353 00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:09,720 and as I've stated, I think you're punishing and it's 354 00:22:09,720 --> 00:22:13,360 already going to be struggling. The people that are good 355 00:22:13,360 --> 00:22:16,840 lawyers, the people that haven't got a good home, the people who 356 00:22:16,840 --> 00:22:20,160 are struggling to end, make ends meet, whose kids go off to a 357 00:22:20,160 --> 00:22:22,480 gang because they've got the family there that they didn't 358 00:22:22,480 --> 00:22:23,120 get at home. I. 359 00:22:24,360 --> 00:22:28,720 Mean, I will say I'll be this is certainly some amendments that I 360 00:22:28,720 --> 00:22:31,880 will be keeping an eye on. And hopefully once we see what 361 00:22:31,880 --> 00:22:34,760 the amendments are, we can kind of revisit this and maybe get 362 00:22:34,760 --> 00:22:38,360 the Premier or the minister of National Security back in and we 363 00:22:38,360 --> 00:22:43,120 can discuss it in more depth or even address spoke to some some 364 00:22:43,120 --> 00:22:46,680 individuals within the kind of social welfare system. 365 00:22:46,680 --> 00:22:49,960 They get their expert opinions on these things. 366 00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:54,640 Question to you, Jonathan, in your heart of hearts, everything 367 00:22:54,640 --> 00:22:58,280 we've said, do you honestly expect there to be amendments to 368 00:22:58,280 --> 00:23:02,280 this? Well, I mean, he's saying he's 369 00:23:02,280 --> 00:23:05,040 going to reform it. So reform is amendments, right, 370 00:23:05,360 --> 00:23:08,160 You know, just. But that goes down to the devils 371 00:23:08,160 --> 00:23:10,160 in the detail thing. Again, we don't know what the 372 00:23:10,160 --> 00:23:11,600 proposed amendments are going to be. 373 00:23:11,920 --> 00:23:15,600 We have some telegraphing about what is going to concern going 374 00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:20,200 to be concerned about in terms of violent crime, but I don't 375 00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:25,440 know I really. I just, as everybody who listens 376 00:23:25,440 --> 00:23:28,680 to the podcast knows, I'm a cynic and I do wonder if some of 377 00:23:28,680 --> 00:23:31,800 this is posturing. I mean, we don't seem to have 378 00:23:31,800 --> 00:23:35,080 used it as far as we can tell. Why don't you start using it in 379 00:23:35,080 --> 00:23:37,640 its current form and see what happens? 380 00:23:39,320 --> 00:23:41,480 Why does it need reviewing and amending? 381 00:23:41,480 --> 00:23:45,600 Potentially we haven't used it. Let's use it, see what happens, 382 00:23:47,240 --> 00:23:52,200 and then stop the talk do it. But I do wonder if it is just 383 00:23:52,200 --> 00:23:57,000 talk to modify what's going on. I mean, I said we don't have the 384 00:23:57,000 --> 00:23:59,760 data, we haven't seen the data. So we we don't know. 385 00:23:59,760 --> 00:24:03,600 But on the surface, that is my impression that it is a kind of 386 00:24:03,840 --> 00:24:08,160 social reaction to the dramatic events that we've had in the 387 00:24:08,160 --> 00:24:10,960 last month or so. So it has. 388 00:24:10,960 --> 00:24:15,160 Kind of under a lot. It is a human response, but is 389 00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:18,400 it going to solve the issue? I don't think so, yeah. 390 00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:20,600 Is it, is it a practical response? 391 00:24:20,600 --> 00:24:23,080 I'm not sure perhaps. So I could say we should try 392 00:24:23,080 --> 00:24:26,040 utilizing the law more forcefully and see what happens 393 00:24:26,040 --> 00:24:28,320 from there. Even then I think we have to be 394 00:24:28,320 --> 00:24:31,960 careful. The other big, the other big 395 00:24:31,960 --> 00:24:35,040 issue which caught our attention we both talked about is in 396 00:24:35,200 --> 00:24:42,080 before is government. Well, what should we say is the 397 00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:43,560 public? The government's ordered the 398 00:24:43,560 --> 00:24:49,280 public school system to act more rigorous rigorously on policies 399 00:24:49,280 --> 00:24:54,120 regarding personal electronic devices, IE your cell phone. 400 00:24:54,120 --> 00:24:57,680 And apparently the Education Minister, Crystal Caesar has 401 00:24:57,680 --> 00:25:02,080 written to parents and guardians outlining this policy which says 402 00:25:02,080 --> 00:25:04,880 that mobile phones, smartwatches, tablets, gaming 403 00:25:04,880 --> 00:25:08,960 devices must be switched off and placed out of sight while 404 00:25:08,960 --> 00:25:17,280 students are on school grounds. And MRSA goes on to explain in a 405 00:25:17,280 --> 00:25:21,640 letter that there's concerns over the amount of time students 406 00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:24,680 spend on cell phones, electronic communication devices during the 407 00:25:24,680 --> 00:25:27,840 school day that they distract from learning, disrupt the 408 00:25:27,840 --> 00:25:31,400 classroom. And as of September the 9th, so 409 00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:34,680 last week, the schools will be enforcing mobile phone and 410 00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:38,720 personal device policy more rigorously and they'll all have 411 00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:42,320 to be turned off and stored away before entering the school and 412 00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:44,800 won't be allowed to turn them on again until they've left. 413 00:25:44,800 --> 00:25:49,440 The kids have left a verbal warnings and at the bottom of 414 00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:53,320 the scale, the top of the scale, a student being banned from 415 00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:55,520 bringing a device onto the school premises, plus 416 00:25:55,520 --> 00:25:59,040 suspensions, detentions, etcetera, etcetera. 417 00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:03,200 Right. I've been, I was looking at this 418 00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:06,440 a long time ago when I was still reporting the Raw Gazette whilst 419 00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:11,400 the policy was, and I did that in the wake of the Netflix 420 00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:14,840 series. We won multi multiple Emmys 421 00:26:14,880 --> 00:26:16,560 yesterday. We're recording this on Monday, 422 00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:23,160 so that's Sunday, the programme Adolescence, and I was just told 423 00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:26,080 there was a policy. Now clearly from that time, 424 00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:29,600 which is about a year ago, I guess now they've decided to 425 00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:32,400 strengthen that policy or actually properly implement that 426 00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:34,560 policy. There isn't a particular reason 427 00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:35,960 why. What do you think? 428 00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:38,000 I'm in favor of it. What do you think? 429 00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:43,080 Well, I'm in favor of it. I mean, I know I'm still working 430 00:26:43,080 --> 00:26:47,240 on having a more healthy relationship with my phone use 431 00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:51,280 our screen time. Having said that, I I'm less 432 00:26:51,280 --> 00:26:54,040 concerned about students being kind of distracted by their 433 00:26:54,040 --> 00:26:56,680 devices. I'm more concerned about the 434 00:26:56,680 --> 00:26:59,800 issue of cyber bullying and the way these electronics workers 435 00:26:59,800 --> 00:27:03,800 are being used in harassment and bullying situations. 436 00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:06,120 I mean, I'm glad we didn't have phones when I was in high. 437 00:27:06,120 --> 00:27:07,760 School. Me too. 438 00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:11,800 We're going to have children navigating in this brave new 439 00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:15,080 world that we have. I don't think it's just kind of 440 00:27:15,080 --> 00:27:17,720 solve cyber bullying. It's still going to happen. 441 00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:20,160 It's still going to happen, especially outside of school. 442 00:27:20,160 --> 00:27:24,640 But I do think it can help clamp down or reduce incidences off 443 00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:27,600 it. My only reservation is in 444 00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:34,920 situations where students may need to record abusive behavior 445 00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:37,840 by teachers or by people in authority. 446 00:27:38,280 --> 00:27:41,400 And does this prevent them having that ability? 447 00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:45,840 You know, if they can't trust the teachers of the adults at 448 00:27:45,840 --> 00:27:50,400 the school, you know how they're going to be able to prove 449 00:27:50,520 --> 00:27:53,560 instance of abuse. Now, this is a very small thing. 450 00:27:53,560 --> 00:27:55,320 It's a minor thing. There's ways around it. 451 00:27:56,160 --> 00:27:58,800 But in general, yeah, I thought I do support this idea. 452 00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:02,400 That's just my only kind of concern or thought, you know? 453 00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:06,600 Yeah, it's interesting actually. So I did some little bit of 454 00:28:06,600 --> 00:28:10,800 background research and I came across the UK and it gave out 455 00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:15,560 guidance in 2023. And I just read the summary and 456 00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:20,280 it's said that today, this was 2023 by the age of 1297% of 457 00:28:20,280 --> 00:28:22,240 pupils own a mobile phone, cell phone. 458 00:28:23,040 --> 00:28:25,960 And they said that mobile phones risk unnecessary distraction, 459 00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:30,320 disruption and diversion. So one in three secondary school 460 00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:34,440 pupils, it'd be, I guess, middle school here report the mobile 461 00:28:34,440 --> 00:28:36,880 phones are used in most lessons without permission. 462 00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:40,400 And he says this not not only distracts a single pupil using 463 00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:43,840 the phone, but disrupts a lesson for a whole class and diverts 464 00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:46,200 teachers efforts away from learning. 465 00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:49,920 He says by removing mobile phones from the school day, we 466 00:28:49,920 --> 00:28:53,520 can create a safe space where pupils are protected from the 467 00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:56,840 risks and dangers associated with social media and cyber 468 00:28:56,840 --> 00:29:00,200 bullying, bullying, as well as peer pressure and possible 469 00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:04,240 stigma associated with only what are often expensive devices. 470 00:29:05,320 --> 00:29:08,960 Now it's actually said that head teachers and leaders reported 471 00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:12,760 after removing mobile phones, the whole culture of the schools 472 00:29:12,760 --> 00:29:14,680 changed for the better. As could. 473 00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:17,920 The environment becomes safer, protecting pupils not only from 474 00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:20,960 the short term distraction of a notification, but also the 475 00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:23,320 background noise of their lives outside school. 476 00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:26,920 There's a but. So there was some groundbreaking 477 00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:30,600 report by the University of Birmingham and the study's lead 478 00:29:30,600 --> 00:29:34,080 author, Doctor Victoria Goodyear, and I'm quoting from 479 00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:37,160 the BBC, the British Broadcasting Corporation, right, 480 00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:41,360 saying that the findings were not, not against smartphone 481 00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:44,440 bands in schools, but quotes what we are suggesting that 482 00:29:44,440 --> 00:29:47,880 those bands in isolation are not enough to tackle the negative 483 00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:51,120 impacts. So more needs to be done. 484 00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:56,680 So you have banning a school, that's fine, but it's also 485 00:29:56,680 --> 00:29:59,560 obviously what she's saying is outside the school. 486 00:29:59,720 --> 00:30:04,000 You can't ban it in isolation. And she actually said the focus 487 00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:06,640 needed to be on reducing how much time students spent on 488 00:30:06,640 --> 00:30:10,880 their phones, adding quotes. We need to do more than just put 489 00:30:10,880 --> 00:30:14,120 ban phones in schools. Now. 490 00:30:14,120 --> 00:30:16,640 I think this is quite a nice segue to what we were talking 491 00:30:16,640 --> 00:30:20,600 before, because I think this is where parents need to have some 492 00:30:20,600 --> 00:30:23,520 responsibility. And it's why I mentioned 493 00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:28,200 adolescence, because the boy in in in the in the in the series 494 00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:30,920 teenage boy was done for murder. He was being cyber bullied. 495 00:30:31,440 --> 00:30:34,960 The parents had no idea. There was a quote in the series, 496 00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:37,480 which I won't forget and I I might be misquoting it. 497 00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:43,240 When the lead character, Stephen Graham, that's the actor turned 498 00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:46,960 to the his his screen wife and says he was in his room. 499 00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:51,600 We thought he was safe and he wasn't because he was still on 500 00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:53,920 social media. He was still subjected to 501 00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:58,960 cyberbullying which caused him murder at I'll, so parental 502 00:30:58,960 --> 00:31:01,880 responsibility here I think is huge. 503 00:31:03,320 --> 00:31:06,280 Yeah, I, I know the government has, I think it's called Cyber 504 00:31:06,280 --> 00:31:08,520 Tips. You've seen them on Bermuda 505 00:31:08,520 --> 00:31:11,920 Parade Sit, that's Cyber Tips mascot going around. 506 00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:16,520 So there are education courses that the government does hold at 507 00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:19,800 least within the school system. I don't know if they're formal 508 00:31:19,800 --> 00:31:25,160 courses are like square assemblies, but they do have 509 00:31:25,160 --> 00:31:27,760 resources and I would encourage everyone to approach them. 510 00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:32,520 I mean, I think we all need to develop a healthier approach to 511 00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:36,160 our phones and, and these devices are designed to be 512 00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:39,840 addictive. That is The thing is dopamine 513 00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:42,240 rush. So it's hard to break. 514 00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:48,320 They're probably more addictive than sugar or, or fat or, or, or 515 00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:50,320 cigarettes. They're very addictive. 516 00:31:50,320 --> 00:31:52,320 Things they are, but they're designed to be. 517 00:31:52,320 --> 00:31:56,320 But my my point more than anything else is that on this on 518 00:31:56,320 --> 00:32:01,200 this program, the parents, not the police even had an idea of 519 00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:04,040 the of the language that was used on social media. 520 00:32:05,560 --> 00:32:07,240 You know, they had they couldn't interpret it. 521 00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:08,720 They were they were missing the point. 522 00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:11,920 The police officer investigated the murder had to be put right 523 00:32:11,920 --> 00:32:15,640 by his own son so he could understand to read the language. 524 00:32:16,240 --> 00:32:19,360 So I think, you know, you probably, I mean, thank goodness 525 00:32:19,360 --> 00:32:21,800 my kids have grown up and I hopefully passed this stage now, 526 00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:24,200 but I had no idea. I thought there was safe in 527 00:32:24,200 --> 00:32:26,080 their room. If I got out there and seen 528 00:32:26,080 --> 00:32:28,520 something, I wouldn't have a clue what it meant probably. 529 00:32:28,800 --> 00:32:31,200 And I think parents probably need to get a little bit more 530 00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:35,520 involved. Well, I talked about the Charlie 531 00:32:35,520 --> 00:32:39,880 Kirk murder last week already, but coming out of that, we're 532 00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:42,720 there are a lot of people learning about sort of these 533 00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:46,800 kind of online lingo, this kind of gamer talk, because they were 534 00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:52,880 things written on the bullets that the alleged assassin wrote 535 00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:55,200 and they were all kind of gamer talk stuff. 536 00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:58,880 If you're not deep into the gamer culture, it would go right 537 00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:00,680 over your head. Yes. 538 00:33:01,280 --> 00:33:02,520 Yeah. Especially I mean I've. 539 00:33:02,520 --> 00:33:05,080 Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I mean, I, I knew about 540 00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:06,640 Groy Bush. I don't know how to pronounce 541 00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:10,400 their word, but a lot of people don't know about them and what 542 00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:13,440 the kind of talk refers to. So yeah, it's. 543 00:33:14,880 --> 00:33:18,480 I know what the symbols refer to, Yeah, I'm not even sure what 544 00:33:18,480 --> 00:33:20,840 half the symbols refer to. Well, none of them do you quite 545 00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:22,040 honest. You know I. 546 00:33:22,560 --> 00:33:24,160 Mean, I weren't. I weren't mentioning because 547 00:33:24,160 --> 00:33:27,240 they're a bit rude. I only found that out much 548 00:33:27,240 --> 00:33:28,840 later. Yeah. 549 00:33:29,960 --> 00:33:32,960 So yeah, I think we all have to kind of self educate ourselves. 550 00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:36,400 But again, it wants to say people working two to three jobs 551 00:33:36,400 --> 00:33:39,040 and you know, you get home, you're exhausted. 552 00:33:39,040 --> 00:33:40,520 It's hard to keep on top of everything. 553 00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:43,800 So that's why I think these, yeah, that's why I think these 554 00:33:43,800 --> 00:33:46,600 two topics are really good to explore together because they 555 00:33:46,600 --> 00:33:49,400 kind of go hand in hand. And they're like, and again, I, 556 00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:52,160 I think it comes down to prevention. 557 00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:55,560 I think there should be better education for parents or access 558 00:33:55,560 --> 00:33:59,320 to better education, you know, a really strong campaign to help 559 00:33:59,320 --> 00:34:03,400 parents understand what's going on with kids, you know, and the 560 00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:05,760 language that they use, the symbols that they use, give an 561 00:34:05,760 --> 00:34:08,760 understanding of what they're going through because it's, you 562 00:34:08,760 --> 00:34:12,520 know, this, this, this culture has really only started, what, 563 00:34:12,520 --> 00:34:16,600 in the last 10 or 15 years with the fans. 564 00:34:17,120 --> 00:34:19,520 And they're certainly kind of mutated during COVID because 565 00:34:19,520 --> 00:34:22,560 during COVID we are almost a year and a half, two years 566 00:34:22,560 --> 00:34:27,280 almost off here is not being in school but being online, not 567 00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:30,280 necessarily murder, but especially in the United States 568 00:34:30,280 --> 00:34:35,199 and the UK. And I feel that has led to a 569 00:34:35,239 --> 00:34:39,440 real kind of societal change that a lot of us who are not 570 00:34:40,560 --> 00:34:44,760 Fred Young don't grow a grasp yet, and we're still trying to 571 00:34:44,760 --> 00:34:47,679 come to terms with it. I totally agree. 572 00:34:47,800 --> 00:34:50,199 I totally agree. My kids say something and I have 573 00:34:50,199 --> 00:34:53,440 to, I have to give them, give me a detailed explanation of what 574 00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:56,639 we're talking about because you know, it's media speak or 575 00:34:56,639 --> 00:34:58,480 symbols or whatever. I just don't get it. 576 00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:01,240 I mean slang words do change. I mean, there was slang words 577 00:35:01,240 --> 00:35:05,440 from my youth, which I still use, but the the youth off today 578 00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:08,680 look at me like I'm a boomer or something and thank you. 579 00:35:08,760 --> 00:35:10,440 Thank you with how much I haven't looked back. 580 00:35:10,440 --> 00:35:14,080 This means so that that is part of the generational change. 581 00:35:14,080 --> 00:35:18,440 But I do feel we're seeing a whole different level beyond 582 00:35:18,800 --> 00:35:21,680 what we knew before. Maybe yes. 583 00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:23,680 I reckon that sound like a boomer, but you know. 584 00:35:23,680 --> 00:35:27,000 Oh. Well, I I'll join club with you 585 00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:28,520 there. I am as well, without a doubt. 586 00:35:28,520 --> 00:35:31,760 But, you know, it's our age of the grandparents and the parents 587 00:35:32,440 --> 00:35:34,360 and a little bit younger, obviously. 588 00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:39,040 But yeah, there's so much change and it's very difficult to keep 589 00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:40,280 up with. I appreciate that. 590 00:35:40,520 --> 00:35:43,480 But a bit of public education, I think, would go a very long way. 591 00:35:43,760 --> 00:35:46,840 And as his doctor said in the research, it's not just the 592 00:35:46,840 --> 00:35:48,680 schools. It's what happens outside the 593 00:35:48,680 --> 00:35:50,880 schools as well. And we know that. 594 00:35:51,160 --> 00:35:53,880 We know that. And get us like his arena. 595 00:35:54,800 --> 00:35:58,120 But overall, yeah, I do think that this policy by the Ministry 596 00:35:58,120 --> 00:36:00,840 of Education and the public schools, it was a good thing. 597 00:36:00,840 --> 00:36:03,760 I believe it's already instituted in quite a few of the 598 00:36:03,760 --> 00:36:06,200 private schools already so. Yes, it's not. 599 00:36:06,920 --> 00:36:10,200 But I do think it's definitely an additional tool in the 600 00:36:10,200 --> 00:36:13,080 toolbox, if that makes sense. Totally agree. 601 00:36:13,240 --> 00:36:16,480 Totally agree. Well, we're agreeing, Jonathan. 602 00:36:16,560 --> 00:36:21,400 That's good. OK, I think on that then what's 603 00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:23,040 that? I might do a lot of worry, but 604 00:36:23,040 --> 00:36:26,400 we're all in agreement here. In Venice. 605 00:36:26,960 --> 00:36:28,800 In Venice we usually do. I mean, we're both through the 606 00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:31,120 Guardian, don't we? So yeah, you probably will do. 607 00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:36,480 There we go. If you've got an opinion on 608 00:36:36,480 --> 00:36:42,160 these couple of NIMBY left wingers and our feeling about 609 00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:47,080 parental responsibility and cell phone use, please drop us a 610 00:36:47,080 --> 00:36:49,360 line. The news navs@gmail.com. 611 00:36:49,760 --> 00:36:52,160 Love to hear from you. To get a decent reaction, we'll 612 00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:55,160 read out a few emails on our next podcast. 613 00:36:55,680 --> 00:36:59,360 Love to hear from you. In the meantime is goodbye from 614 00:36:59,360 --> 00:37:00,920 me. And goodbye from me. 615 00:37:01,440 --> 00:37:05,160 The News Navigators with Jeremy Deacon and Jonathan Starling 616 00:37:05,640 --> 00:37:08,720 distilling and discussing the issues of the day. 617 00:37:09,160 --> 00:37:12,520 We help Bermuda navigate the news.