The News Navigators with me, Jeremy Deacon.
And me, Jonathan Sterling. Jonathan, I don't know about you
mate, but I'm having problems keeping up with the news.
Not only is it doom and gloom, it really has, hasn't it a long,
short year. I mean, I wanted to post the
other day. I saw a list of headlines on the
Guardian, which was so depressing.
It was Trump, it was war, it was famine.
But then every time something happens, Trump does something
else and Trump Trump's it all, you know?
And it's so difficult to keep pace with him.
I. Have to be honest, I'm I'm
exhausted by it all. This is very tiring.
It's very tiring and it, you know, it sounds a bit flimsy in
a way, but it's kind of emotionally quite stressful.
You know, it's something that's bad all the time, something that
doesn't make sense all the time, only sense to people like you
and me. If you're on the MAGA, right, it
probably makes perfect sense, but I find it difficult to take
in. I find it very concerning, you
know, what's happening with Greenland and Europe.
I find it very concerning about my kids future.
I've got two kids who are turning 23 and 20 this year, and
I wonder what's going to be like for them.
I worry about imperialism. I worry about Trump's attitude,
giving power to Putin and China, you know, because that's what
it's about. This is about imperialism.
The dates, 1984 keep coming back to me.
We talked about this last time, but it keeps coming back to me.
You know, I'm going to have to go and reread it.
And it's not a nice place at the moment.
The world. No, it's, it's very difficult.
I mean, I'm, I'm always optimistic in the long term, but
I have to admit I'm quite pessimistic in the short term at
the moment. It does seem, I mean, of course
the world is always changing, but it does seem like the, the
kind of order that we grew up in the post World War 2 order is
it's having a, a qualitative change.
Well, international law seems to have gone out the window.
NATO, the UN seems to be heading the same way depending on what
happens with Greenland, but it does seem to be going the same
way, which is quite, you know, disconcerting because for all
its faults, those institutions that have kept Europe largely at
peace, well, at peace since 1945, apart from what's happened
in Ukraine. And partly you could argue that
NATO and UN weren't strong enough, but it has lot mostly
kept Europe at peace. Yeah, I mean, I'm certainly
critical of the United Nations in terms of the Security Council
and the veto process. But I also recognize the United
Nations has done a lot of good things for the world and it's
the best option we have. International law is the best
option we have. Otherwise it's just, you know,
barbarism. It's the rule of might, might,
makes right. And that's, I mean, I've always
argued that that's what America's mostly done, but
they've usually put a fig leaf on and pretended that they're
doing things for democracy or for human rights or for the
rules based order. I mean, I've been critical of
that. But now they've taken off the
fig leaf. The mask is gone.
It's it's no longer the quiet American, it's the ugly
American. And again, I have no qualms with
the American people. They are different from the
American government. But the fact that a lot of the
American people did elect this government and are still
supporting it is problematic. I agree.
And I feel, you know, I feel I
feel deeply for those Americans who don't support Trump.
They must be feeling awful right now.
Anyway, I think that little intro, I think what what led us
to talk about that is a recent article that quoted A gentleman
called Klaus Dodds, who's an interim faculty Dean at
Middlesex University. And he had posed the idea in the
Royal Gazette and in a previous article he wrote that if you can
go for Greenland, why not Bermuda?
He a couple of quotes after Greenland.
Could Bermuda be next? That's the question.
The Role Gazette reported that was raised by Auk analyst in a
striking new article. They said it might sound like
Satya satire, but what if it's not Doctor Dodds?
He was quoted as saying, I wasn't being flippant.
Is it so preposterous to think that someone in that
administration might say, Mr. President, there's an island
called Bermuda located in the Atlantic of the US.
We don't like what the Russians and the Chinese are doing.
This is me quoting. I'm not quoting him.
Now, Bermuda could make great base.
We're worried about the security of Greenland.
We're worried about the security of the East Coast.
How about Bermuda? And it's like, you know, we
would we would touch on this a little bit.
This is this is part, this was made possible, this train of
thought because this is Trump, Trump's move to get a kind of a
Western hemispheric dominance. That's what we're seeing in
Venezuela. That's what we're seeing in in
Greenland. MAGA is not isolationist as we
thought he once was. It is imperialistic colonial
style empire making. Could Bermuda be next?
You've talked about this for a while, Jonathan, haven't you?
I have, yeah. Especially after the the
national security strategy came out was that November last year
and then after their attack on Venezuela, I did, I did raise
these exact issues. I was like, if they can do this
to Maduro, they could do it to me and Motley and Barbados.
They could do it to to Bermuda. They could take out bird if they
wanted. I mean, what's the UK going to
do, you know? Is it?
It? Might as well wait till October.
Yeah, yeah. But I mean, look, in All in all
seriousness, Jonathan, is it a serious threat?
I would say it's still unlikely, but it's no longer as far
fetched or as unlikely as it was even a month ago.
This, this is the problem, isn't it?
This is the problem, his unpredictability.
Yeah. And also, I mean, we've seen
we've seen Europe use the politics of appeasement for the
last year. They've kind of rolled over and
given in to Trump. And every time you do that with
a bully, it just encourages the bully to do more.
There hasn't really been anyone that has stood up.
I mean, the only people that did stand up really was Iran and
Venezuela. And we saw what happened to
them. I I've got a certain sympathy
with with Europe because they had to appease because they
needed American might to fight Putin in Ukraine.
What I'm seeing now is that seems to have been put aside and
there are red lines being drawn. There are some very strong words
I think I read from the Belgian Prime Minister today that he had
said this is a red line as opposed in the talking about
Greenland. So they are showing a pair of
balls at last and and the appeasement seems to be getting
a little bit out of the window. Well, they're talking to talk,
but I'm not convinced yet that they're going to walk the walk.
Often I see the Europeans react and then they kind of try to
stall for time and then they eventually kind of negotiate a
not as bad situation as initial. Yeah, it was.
I read it. I can't remember which American
official it was, They said, he said it was dripping sarcasm.
Oh, they'll probably form that dreaded European working group.
Think that was Stephen Besent, who is?
A yes, it was actually a treasury sex.
Yeah, you're right. Thank you.
Which which, yeah, it was dripping with sarcasm that but
it come back to Bermuda. I mean, is there a reason to, to
want to try and take, if you like, never mind buy Bermuda.
I mean, geopolitically it's in a good place, isn't it?
Like I said, if there's problems with Russia or China getting
close to the US East Coast, this is a perfect place for it.
You know, you know, from your history of World War Two, it was
used to that, to that effect then, wasn't it?
I, I can kind of see that. But other than that, there's no
precious metals, there's no oil, no gas.
Well, there is a lot of wear metals down on the sea floor
we're. Led to believe there's been no
exploration yet though, has there?
No. And I, I mean, I personally am
opposed to to deep sea mining. I think it's an ecologically not
a great idea, but I do know that the Americans are exploring
those not in Bermuda but elsewhere.
So that could be an appeal. I think their appeal for Bermuda
would be more well, partly, I think Trump would just like to
have the golf courses. Yeah, there is that.
From a military strategic point of view, we are still a
strategic asset, especially if the US and Europe is going into
kind of a Cold War system. We are kind of the guard the the
doormat to the US East Coast. I mean that's why we were the
Gibraltar of the West. Of course, that increases our
strategic value for the for especially the UK.
If there is a formal break, I would imagine the UK would want
to rebuild some of their fortifications here.
But of course then America would see that as a threat and they
might want to take us out. I mean, we're all talking
hypotheticals here, but. Hypotheticals are great to talk
about. Yeah, in in many ways we are
already an American colony. We are British colony by name.
But culturally and everything, I think we are very much under the
American influence. What 80 to 90% of our food are
on imports come from from the US.
They could just put a blockade on us and we'd have to
capitulate in two weeks. I get that we're under, under
that influence, yeah. Culturally we're not, I don't
think. Yeah, I mean economic.
Caribbean British influence, but we are still have a lot of
American influence here. No, absolutely.
Yeah. I wonder, you know, it kind of.
I want to help the view to how people in the government will
react if the US tried to exert more control.
Do you think if that happened, and obviously as you said, this
is purely hypothetical, that could actually drive Bermuda to
independence? Well, I mean, as you know, I.
They might, they might, they might just say look we don't
want the UK, we don't want the States give us independence.
Rather like Greenland is exerting its self governing
authority. I mean, I'm, I'm a strong
supporter for independence. I believe in an independent
Bermuda. I also believe in an independent
Caribbean. And I would like to be an
independent Bermuda within an independent Caribbean.
But we're also seeing the Caribbean adopting a strategy of
submission and capitulating to the US.
Ever since the January 3rd attack on Venezuela, you've seen
Saint Kitts, Antigua and I think Dominica have all agreed to
house concentration camps for the Americans.
You know, the Americans are outsourcing their immigration
immigrants to these countries. They're third party immigrants,
so they're not like Saint Kitts citizens being deported back to
Saint Kitts. They're people that America
can't deport for whatever reason to their home country.
They're going to be set up in a concentration camp in these
countries, just like the UK was trying to do with Rwanda a
couple years back. So we're seeing the Caribbean
are just capitulating. So yes, I still believe in an
independent Bermuda joining a strong CARICOM at the moment.
I can certainly see why people would prefer us to be under the
UK because the UK is more likely to be able to defend us,
although I would I see that with a lot of suspicion.
We saw just Prime Minister Starmer just the other day gave
a speech and saying why he can't break with the US because they
control our nuclear weapons, which is our main deterrent.
I mean, how is it a deterrent to maintain your sovereignty if you
have to submit to another country to use it in the first
place? Well, different times, different
people. I mean it's.
Just choosing who who you want to be your master, Moscow or
DCI. Think that might change.
I think that might change a lot. I mean, it would be interesting,
wasn't it? I mean, the Trump was having a
real go at Keir Starmer today about the Diego Garcia deal in
the Mauritius saying it's the worst deal ever.
You know, that's why we have to go to Greenland because you do
this kind of deal. What are you going to do with
Greenland? That's why we have to do it.
Is there AI mean if he really wants to turn the screw on Keir
Starmer in the UK, he really could trump this is point his
finger at the colonies, couldn't he at the dependent territories?
It would leave the UK in quite a bind because Bermuda, as you
know, he's not a country. You can't call Bermuda a
country. He's part of the UK.
How say. We're country, but we're not an
independent nation. A nation.
You're right. I do beg your pardon.
You're a. Country like Scotland and Wales
are countries, but they're within the United Kingdom.
You're absolutely. Right, that's just my Scottish
nationalism kicking it. No, you're quite right.
Thanks for correcting me. But, you know, if he targeted,
if he targeted countries like Bermuda, which is not a nation,
it is part of the UK, that would actually put Keir Starmer in
quite a bind, wouldn't it? Because it would be de facto an
attack on, not a literal, you know, not a literal attack, but
an attack on the UK. Yeah, it would be like the
Falklands. Argentina was a little bit
smaller than the United States in terms of military power.
Yeah, yeah, it would be. That would be quite interesting,
a battle for Bermuda. I mean, I, I don't think our
regimen won't be able to defend us.
All we could do was try to play for time and then go to like
again, this is hypotheticals. The regimen would play for time
and then we would go into like a guerrilla war type thing, but
mostly. We I don't think your last mate
mate last long. We we blow up the Causeway and
settling St. Davis.
And we would hope that the British would be able to get
their troops here. But we're so close to America.
I mean, America's Got such a massive military.
Only hope would be that other countries come to our aid and
American can't fight everyone everywhere at the same time.
I mean, they're they're on the verge of and this might sound
hyperbolic, but they are almost on the verge of civil war in the
United States. We see in Minnesota, the
National Guard is being embodied by the Minnesota government.
We see that the Americans have ordered battalions from Alaska
to fly to Minnesota. We're seeing a direct clash
going on there, which could be the spark of the civil war.
I'm not saying it's going to happen.
I know people are going to say, oh, Jonathan's speaking
hyperbole, hyperbole, but it's there.
It's all happening right now. I think there's a couple of
interesting points that actually that I read up a story about a
poll couple of months ago in America where there was
increasing fear of the Civil War, still relatively low
numbers, but it was increasing in numbers about the Civil War.
I don't know. I think this is, I think we're
going too far with this, frankly.
I don't see that ever happening. I think if Trump decided that he
wanted to take over, move it, it would be more economic pressure.
Anything else. You could see how he might
penalize countries here. You could see how he could
possibly have tariffs. I don't know how they work
exactly, but a lot of our GDP for our balance of payments is
totally reliant really on international business.
You start screening that around and we're in a lot of trouble.
Yeah. I mean, if he if America takes
over Bermuda, that pretty much undermines international
business because they would fall under U.S. tax codes, right?
I mean, maybe they'd do something like Delaware.
Maybe I don't know. That gets really complicated
because I know US has pulled out of the corporate income tax.
It doesn't do that. But like I say, places like
Delaware that that corporate tax rate, but I'm just saying if you
wanted to squeeze it, it wouldn't have to be militarily.
There are a lot of economic ways to do it.
And you know, squeezing the businesses here that would put a
lot of pressure on the worldwide system because of the
reinsurance. It would be very interesting.
Actually. A lot of reinsurance is done in
America. We pay for the wildfires and
stuff like that. How that would play out, it is
very hypothetical, but what I think is really interesting.
We are talking about this. We would never have talked about
this two years ago. Yeah, 10 years ago.
Absolutely not. This, this is something now that
has become there's a sense of realness that's nothing.
That's a word about it. Because he's what he's done to
Maduro, because he, what he wants to do to Greenland, his
imperialistic outlook, you know, his mega base, which like I
said, we thought as isolationist.
It is not. It is imperialistic to feed the
empire like the Brits did. And all these things suddenly
which were unthinkable are now very thinkable.
Yeah. I mean, I would, again, I would
agree that I think it's unlikely that the Americans are going to
take over Bermuda, but it's not impossible now.
But I do think that we should. Behind closed doors, our civil
servants should be trying to figure out a way to kind of
stall for time and diversify our economy so that we're less
vulnerable to American pressure. Well, hopefully that happened
when the tariffs were announced last year, we had that, we had
that cost of living report. I hope that was one of the
things that they looked at to diversify where we get our
imports from. There were lots of talks at a
time when they were about Canada and the Caribbean.
Whether that's part of the CARICOM debate, I don't know.
How far that those talks or those that how far that has
gone, I don't know. But we should do.
We should do absolutely. Because the other thing about
here is, is JD Vance better than Trump or worse than Trump?
He's a front runner to takeover. He is a MAGA acolyte.
You know, his speech in the in Europe telling Europeans off for
so-called stopping freedom of speech when we were actually
talking about far right horrible people is he's actually worse.
Well, I mean, he's a bit of an opportunist.
I mean, you know, before he became Trump's running mate, he
was very anti Trump. He called Trump, he was
America's Hitler, but then he changed his clothes to to his
benefit, which is why I say he's an opportunist.
He saw the opportunity and he completely did an about face.
Will he do another about face once Trump is gone?
I doubt it. I think the MAGA cult is too
strong. He would continue it.
It's something that we can't rely on, that he will turn and
that's where he goes. Back to your point, I hope we're
making plans because three years left for Trump could be another
4 to 8 years of JD Vance. We don't know.
And we have to prepare for that. We absolutely have to.
It's, it's a terrifying thought. You know, I'm sitting here doing
as, you know, recording this in the UK and my daughter's
visiting me. She turns 23 next month.
And I'm really thinking, you know, what does the future hold
for her the next 6-8 years? Conscription.
I'm just kidding. She'll make a great soldier.
I mean, I will say you didn't mention an issue there about the
the European far right. And I do think that this current
move by Trump with Greenland, I think it is in the large way is
going to backfire in terms of his allies in Europe.
Because I mean, reform in the UK for as she's very close to
Trump, how, how this going to impact their, their upcoming
local elections and the Scottish election and the Welsh election.
I can't imagine it would hurt reforms outcome and going
forward, what does that mean for reforming the general election
in a couple years time? You know, I'm not convinced
because being in the UK I'm listening to the radio a lot,
but I'm listening to the commentary, I'm listening to the
news. I think even now Reform is
polling around 30%, which is around 15% higher than the next
party and I think there's local elections coming in May.
I think Reform will do extremely well and probably decimate
Labour and the Tories and I'm not sure this is playing out in
terms of the British electorate. This being Greenland, I don't
think he's playing. Out there, I mean, of course, I
listen more to the Scottish news ecosystem there and I will say
reform was in the running to be second place in the upcoming
general election in Scotland in May, which is the same time as
the local elections in England. From what I'm reading, in the
Scottish kind of news system, this whole Greenland thing is
actually hurting reform in Scotland.
Now, of course, in the English population, it's a different
political system, so maybe it won't have that same impact.
But now Labour is now coming up as the second place and
Scotland, which is amazing seeing how bad of a campaign
they've had so far. Right.
Is this all about independence, do you think?
Deep city Scottish angst over independence.
Well, it certainly increased the the demand for it because
they're seeing that the UK is not defending them.
It's showing that the Trident nuclear weapon, which is
unpopular in Scotland anyway, is not even under the, you know,
British control, which is what Scotland, Scottish voters have
been saying all the time anyway. Why are you poisoning our waters
with radiation which we can't even use?
We digress from Bermuda. Somewhere, yeah, sorry.
Well, I think it's still interesting whether our
listeners have fallen asleep by now.
I mean, I do think that it just shows and this just kind of what
I'll just end on is that the world is changing.
It's a new world order. It's very uncomfortable because
we are all of us grew up used to the current order and now it's
radically changing before our eyes.
There's a quote by Lennon that says that there are decades
where nothing happens and then weeks where decades happen.
Yes, I am quoting quoting Vladimir Lennon.
Good for you. There's a quote I read today and
I can't remember who it's from and I hope I can get it right.
They say something like if the older child dies or something
like that and the younger child isn't born.
It means that's a quote from Antonio Gramsci.
We're just quoting Marxism all day today it was the old world
is dying and the new world is struggling to be born, and we
are now in the time of monsters. And I think that actually sums
up our time perfectly, because I think there will be a new world
born. It's just taking his time to
happen. I think the old world is dying.
The old order is dying. Yeah, it was the Belgian Prime
Minister who quoted the Gramsci today and he said it's up to
it's up to Trump to decide if he wants to be a monster.
Yes, and I must admit, you know, good up for the Belgian Prime
Minister. You know, there's been some
decent hard rhetoric from the Europeans, but I think he was
the the best one I've read so far.
And you know, if there is a trade war, that is going to
impact Bermuda's economy as well of.
Course he will. Yeah.
I mean, we're, we're like a a sail.
We're we're a ship with sails in the in the middle of a storm.
There's nothing you can do about it, you know, That's why, you
know, we rewind a lot. People will know how cynical I
am about the cost of living Commission.
It's just so limited what you can actually do because as you
said repeatedly, we are price takers, not makers.
Yep. And that comes down to you
mentioned, you mentioned CARICOM earlier.
What does that mean for us? How, how should Bermuda react to
this new world? What does it mean?
But this is your, your, your segue haven't hasn't quite
worked this time. Jonathan, are you talking about
Michael Faye's op-ed? I was, I was alluding to that
good. I just had to help the listener
a little bit there. I think wasn't wasn't your best
segue ever. You're losing your touch.
Yeah, sorry, I'm just tired from this whole unprecedented times.
I'm tired. At the same time I can't stop
reading the news. It's so frustrating.
Anyway, so, yeah, so Mike Fay, the who's a friend of mine,
let's get it out there, you know, conflict of interest and
all that. I I'm in the UK so I'm I can
escape his rough. And he was the original Co host
of this podcast. I am I am Faye's replacement.
I have a very good one too, I might add, Mr. Starling.
Thank you. Thank.
You a very good one, yeah. He can't bump me.
Can't bump into me in the street and, and shout at me.
But basically he, he seemed to suggest that because there's,
because Trump has downgraded the immigrant visa processing from
75 countries, I think including all but four or five of CARICOM
members. He's suggesting, therefore, that
it would be bad to join CARICOM because we might basically be
subsumed into that situation. I really disagree with him, if
I've summed up that article correctly.
Jonathan, hopefully I have. Yeah, I mean, we are already
members of CARICOM. We're associate members becoming
full members. I don't think it's going to
change anything on our immigrant status.
And and the The thing is for immigrant visas, not for tourist
visas. You did say I'm just
highlighting that. I I don't really.
To me it's just caremongering. I think so.
This is a global policy that's being carried out by the Trump
administration. It's not local.
It's not particularly targeted. I mean, yes, he did.
He did excuse those countries in the Caribbean that supported his
actions, particularly in Venezuela.
But I don't think we should be making our policies on the basis
of a man. Also, what if we can't make our
policies on what if? Otherwise that's paralysis.
Well, it's also the politics of appeasement.
If you're saying we can't make this decision as a nation
because it might upset this other country that will then
punish us, that will collective punishment.
That's just appeasement and encouraging bullying in my
opinion. I totally agree, but personally
one of my one of my main points here is I do not think that
Trump is targeting CARICOM, its ideology or its.
Governance I I don't think he would make a distinguish.
He would distinguish between Bermuda and the Caribbean
anyway. Anyway, I mean we're.
All I won't say it because this is on air.
We're all S hole countries to him in a way.
No, let's say it. We're all bunch of shit old
countries. Let's just say it.
Yeah, I know. The other thing is, excuse me, I
don't think that having CARICOM membership equates to diplomatic
alignment or shared immigration outcomes or policies.
Yeah. I mean, the shared immigration
is an option that Bermuda could then pursue, but it's not
mandatory on becoming a full member of CARICOM.
Does that make sense? There's a different kind of
treaty. Yeah, it does.
And I think also that the fact that Bermuda has not been
included in this latest round of immigration denials shows that
it treats Bermuda differently anyway.
Well, I don't think any of the UK colonies were included in all
independent countries. Exactly, which is another point.
It couldn't really do it because that's a direct attack on the
UK. Going back to what we said
previously, we're not a nation, nor is BVI, nor is Cayman, you
know, So I, I think, and I, I posted this comment as well, I
think Mike's got it wrong here. I, I, I really think he's got it
wrong. And I don't quite know, I don't
quite know what made him say it. Now, as we were talking off air
earlier on saying this is politicking.
Would the PLP have done the same?
Quite possibly. But I I I think this is way, way
off the mark. The membership of CARICOM makes
any difference to this one. We know the Oba is historically
not in favor of CARICOM. We saw when they were in power
that they kind of down downgraded relationships with
CARICOM. They didn't attend a lot, a lot
of the CARICOM meetings. We know that they've come out
critical of CARICOM. To me, this is just
scaremongering to add to their argument against CARICOM, you
know? I'm inclined to agree.
Having said that, on CARICOM, it
is about time that we had the letter from them outlining the
details of our proposed membership.
It is about time and it is about time the government got on with
his consultation a little bit more.
Yeah. I mean, as I said, I'm very pro
CARICOM. I'm critical of Caricom's stance
right now in response to America.
But I still think we would be stronger as a regional bloc
together. But I am surprised that the the
government has not really begun the consultation process.
Yeah. You know.
I'm very surprised and it they've had plenty of time.
Yeah. I mean, my guess is it just
hasn't been a priority. I don't know.
Or maybe it's been a priority and they're working on it and
they just haven't released it. But I do hope that they do start
that consultation because you can't say we're going to join
CARICOM without explaining the pros and cons and getting the
people with you. I agree on that.
I don't think there's a need for a referendum.
Mike Faye did did, did send me a very, very long e-mail today
which I sent on to you explaining the OB as response.
And we haven't got time today to do that, but we will do.
He explains why he believes that we were wrong and why there
needs to be a referendum. So we we will pick that up in
another episode to go into that in more detail.
In the meantime, let's enjoy being in Bermuda, man.
Let's enjoy being a colony before we become some tiny
county run by a mayor. AUS mayor with a with an
aircraft carrier fleet parked off the North Shore.
Airstrip One. Where would Trump stay?
Would he build a Trump Tower, do you think?
Well I'm pretty sure the Princess would probably be
renamed like Ivanka Princess or something.
Mid ocean will probably become Trump mansion or something I
don't know. Yeah, yeah, there'd be a,
there'd be a Trump Tower at Mid Ocean, wouldn't know through the
golf course. Government House is vacant at
the moment. So this is true.
We did. We'd have a lot of gold.
Yeah. On the island, yeah, absolutely.
I can't wait. On that note, I hope you found
this interesting. I, I have because the world is
changing before our eyes. It's so difficult to keep up
with, as we mentioned at the beginning of this.
And as usual, if you agree with us, if you disagree, even better
let us know. e-mail the news navs@gmail.com.
We will be doing another podcast shortly because there's just so
much to talk about. And until then, from me.
Goodbye, Jonathan. Yeah, goodbye from me as well.
Thanks. Take care.
Bye then.