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大 家 好， 歡 迎 收 看 哲 學， 我 是 今 集 的 主 
持 朱 銘 好 來 沒 見 了 我 們 之 後 是 這 樣， 希

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望 大 家 多 多 支 持 啦。 
我 們 都 終 於 決 定 要 從 啟 這 個 系 列 呢， 就

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因 為 今 天 我 們 實 在 邀 請 了 一 位 非 常 重 
量 的 嘉 賓， 就 不 得 不 呢， 今 天 一 定 要 跑 

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一 拍， 跟 大 家 聽 一 下 等 大 家。 
重 拾 這 個 這 個 節 目 的 熱 情。 

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重 量 級 嘉 賓， 之 前 呢， 我 就 好 快 介 紹 我 
們 今 天 一 起 的 主 持， 我 就 有 這 邊 的 青 南

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啦， 好 feel 到 是 非 常 的 緊 張 欸， 大 家 記
得 有 這 邊 的 MK 啦。 

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錄 MK 老 師 麥 奇。 
Hi I am man key yes。 

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幾 10 秒 就 是 這 一 集 最 後 講 廣 東 話 的 時
間 啦， 因 為 我 們 嘉 賓 是 不 是 講 廣 東 話 的

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重 量 級 嘉 賓 是 非 常 的 榮 幸， 因 為 其 實 我
們 在 不 同 的 集 數 或 者 我 們 的 片 裡 面 都 

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提 及 到 不 少 次 這 個 名 字 的。 
感 冒 在 加 班 就 是 Peter so today we 

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have A really， really， truly 
special guest professor， singer 

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and then professor singer， I 
think。 

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Our audience know you already 
because we have mentioned your 

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name， your philosophy many， many
time in different episode。 

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So IT is A truly pressure honor 
to have you here。 

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So professor singer is like one 
of the most influential living 

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philosophy of our day， so you 
make many major voices on 

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different issues regarding like 
utilitarian and like animal 

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ethics， bio ethics and also 
effective algorithm。 

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So this is our true owner to 
have you here。 

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Thank you so much。 
Thank you G man。 

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It's my pleasure to be here。 
Yeah， Thank you。 

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So what A milestone for US。 
Okay？ 

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So we are so loving。 
So last before we go， deep into 

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utility and philosophy， Maybe we
can begin with some weather 

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personal story。 
We want to know more about your 

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personal journey to philosophy 
and also you to the terrorism。 

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So may I ask， what is your 
motivation or your starting 

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point of studying philosophy 
when and Why？ 

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In philosophy。 
Well， I didn't know much about 

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philosophy when I was applying 
to go to University。 

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Philosophy was not taught in 
high schools in Australia at 

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that time。 
So there's A little bit that I 

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knew about IT。 
I got from the boyfriend of my 

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sister。 
I had A sister older than me and

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he had done some philosophy and 
somehow that we talked about IT。

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I'd also read Burton Russell's 
history of western philosophy， 

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which was really the only 
philosophy book that I'd read， 

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but IT seemed interesting。 
I'd always been interested in A 

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good argument and I was planning
to study law because lawyers 

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have to be good at arguing。 
Money， and you can make A 

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living。 
From IT？ 

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That's right。 
And so when I went， I applied 

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for law。 
I was accepted to study law， but

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I went to see A counselor who 
looked at my results for my 

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final year of high school and he
said， you know， you've done well

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in A number of humanity subjects
you might consider combining the

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law degree with A Bachelor arts 
degree， which you can do。 

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IT doesn't take IT takes one or 
two years longer depending。 

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How long？ 
Whether you're doing honors arts

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degree or just an ordinary one。 
And so I said， yeah， that sounds

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interesting。 
I'm happy to do that。 

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So what would I study in the 
arts degree？ 

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I'd done history at school and 
like that， so I said I'll do 

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history， but then I wanted to do
something else as well。 

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So I decided to try the first 
year of philosophy course and I 

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enjoyed that and I did well in 
IT。 

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So I went on with philosophy and
I became more interested in the 

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philosophy than in the law 
subjects， which I was studying 

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at the same time。 
So there was A point at which 

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I'd finished the philosophy 
degree。 

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And got A first class on as 
result in IT， but I hadn't 

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finished the law degree so I 
went to the law skill and and 

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said in A philosophy is 
encouraging me to go on and do A

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master's degree in philosophy。 
Can I postpone finishing the law

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degree？ 
And they said， sure， no problem 

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you can postpone for。 
Postpone or cancel at。 

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The time IT was postponed 
because you just said I can earn

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some money as A lawyer and I 
didn't know I could earn some 

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money as A philosopher。 
And in fact， my father really 

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dated that。 
I well， something also not。 

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My father said， you know， 
philosopher， how can you make A 

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living as A philosopher？ 
But I did the master's degree。 

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I got A scholarship to go to 
Oxford。 

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I did the graduate degree。 
By that time， I was interested 

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in A career in philosophy and I 
never finished A law degree。 

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You know， there are many 
different kind of philosophical 

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question like metaphysic， like 
philosophy of my philosophy of 

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language， and some are more 
practical。 

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FX， which in which you are 
specialties。 

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So my question is， are you 
concerned that about moral 

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philosophy since you start doing
philosophy or you are more like 

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interested in all kind of 
philosophies instead？ 

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I was interested in the whole 
area philosophy at first。 

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But when IT came to thinking 
about？ 

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Maybe I'm going to spend my life
doing this。 

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I didn't think that I could 
really feel good spending my 

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life asking questions like， How 
do I know that I'm not dreaming 

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now， right？ 
That didn't seem A very real 

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concern。 
IT was sort of an intellectual 

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puzzle how I might know that。 
But that and other questions of 

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that kind。 
They seemed A little bit too 

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remote from ordinary life， and I
like the idea that in ethics you

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can talk about issues that other
people do talk about and 

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hopefully you can add to the 
quality of the discussion by 

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having some philosophy 
background。 

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So that's Why by the final years
of my philosophy。 

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I was more interested in ethics 
and political philosophy than I 

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was in metaphysics or 
epistomology or logic。 

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But do you have A expectation 
that you want to make A real 

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influence in the Real World 
while doing philosophy？ 

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When you start interested in 
effhics？ 

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Perhaps not at first， but 
gradually， as I've done some 

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more ethics。 
And also the other thing that I 

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should say is I'm an 
undergraduate。 

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In the nineteen sixties， IT was 
A decade of new student 

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movements。 
There was the war in Vietnam。 

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Australia was an ally of the 
United States。 

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We actually had troops in 
Vietnam fighting alongside the 

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United States。 
IT was possible that I was going

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to be conscripted to fight in 
Vietnam。 

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That was A possibility given the
age that I was， so I was 

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interested in that issue and 
there was A lot of discussion in

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the universities about。 
Is。 

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This A just war。 
What are the criteria for A just

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war？ 
And there was also the civil 

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rights movement in America which
spread to Australia as well。 

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So that was another question 
with， you know， moral issues 

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that were being raised by 
students and students were 

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talking about Why aren't our 
courses more relevant to this， 

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right？ 
Why， for Example， in ethics are 

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we only analyzing the meanings 
of moral Words and asking 

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whether their objective or 
subjective or emotive？ 

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Why aren't we asking？ 
These questions like， what are 

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the criteria for A war to be？ 
Just what is the basis of human 

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equality？ 
So I did think because of that 

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time at which I was studying 
that， yeah， ethics might have 

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something to do that's relevant 
to to our lives。 

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And triggered IT by the social 
environment， the atmosphere so 

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that you are more interested in 
ethics， which is more Down to FM

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relevant to the Real World。 
Right， I think IT was probably A

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combination of my own 
temperament。 

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And also what was going on at 
the time in social movements。 

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In talking about ethics， I think
you are one of the most famous 

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utilitarian in the world， so may
I ask further， when and Why you 

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start to be A utilitarian？ 
Well， the first ethics course 

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that I took was taught by。 
A professor called HJ McCloskey。

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He's probably not heard of much 
today， but he was an 

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intuitionist along the lines of 
WD Ross， so he thought。 

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The right view of morality is 
that we intuit A number of 

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primer faci duties like the duty
of。 

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Not nying， not killing something
like that？ 

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Yeah。 
Not lying that's right， 

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veracity， gratitude。 
If someone did something good to

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you， you had A duty to be 
grateful and to return the favor

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if the opportunity arose。 
Reparation if you hound somebody

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you had A duty to make IT up to 
them。 

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Beneficent so there was A duty 
of doing good， but IT was only 

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one among several duties and non
maleficence not harming people 

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was another so and he actually 
was。 

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I think the author of one of the
at least at that time famous 

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objections to utilitarianism。 
The objection was based on the 

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assumption that you are the 
Sheriff in A southern。 

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Town at this time， the South was
quite racist still。 

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And in this town， A white woman 
says she's been raped by A black

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man and there's A mob of people 
who've gone out with guns and 

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they've rounded up half A dozen 
black men and they're now about 

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to Lynch them。 
All as A sort of warning to the 

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black community and so these six
people are going to be。 

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Killed， what can you do as 
Sheriff？ 

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Well， you can't stop them 
entirely from doing this， but if

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you say I've got evidence that 
this one is The One who did IT， 

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then they will Lynch that one 
and let the others go， and 

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McCloskey said。 
Well， A utilitarian would have 

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to do that。 
A utilitarian would have to say，

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make false evidence， try to 
forge the evidence to show that 

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one man was guilty。 
So that only one person would 

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die rather than six， so it's 
kind of A version of the trolley

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problem， as you can see， and 
McCloskey thought that this was 

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A knock Down objection to 
utilitarianism because obviously

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A Sheriff should not invent 
evidence。 

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The Sheriff should be， should be
honest and do their role。 

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Even if that meant that more 
people died and I was not 

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convinced by that， I thought， 
Gee， you know， if there's really

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Nothing the Sheriff can do to 
stop six people being。 

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Lynched， at least five of whom 
are innocent。 

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Except by telling A lie。 
Well， that's what he should do 

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so， so I thought， well， that's 
not A knockdown。 

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Objection to utilitarianism。 
What are the other objections 

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that some people think are 
knocked Down objections？ 

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and I started looking at the 
literature and I didn't think 

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any of the objections were 
really convincing。 

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So then I began to think， well， 
Maybe there is something in this

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theory。 
Okay， so it's like the classic 

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scape goal objection to 
utilitarianism。 

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I personally don't find IT 
locked Down argument， but at 

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least I will recognize some 
appealing appeal of the 

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arguments， so you never share 
our Intuition that the Sheriff 

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shouldn't make up the evidence 
and kill one bad guy。 

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You never have that intuation。 
I never。 

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Had that Intuition as an 
overriding Intuition。 

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Okay， I did have。 
I could understand the sort of 

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the attraction of the view that，
you know， there's something bad 

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about。 
Our government official， A law 

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official in particular forging 
the evidence。 

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I could see that often that 
might lead to very bad things 

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happening， but II never thought 
that。 

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That Intuition is just so 
powerful。 

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That。 
That's the end of。 

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Utilitarianism that 
utilitarianism must be wrong。 

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Actually want to ask how？ 
Do you start your journey into 

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animal effects？ 
Because we can discuss utotarism

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in the next session， so I'm 
interested。 

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For anywhere effects。 
But I want to talk about his 

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personal journey。 
My personal journey to animal 

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ethics， okay？ 
So that happened some years 

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later because what I was just 
talking about was in the second 

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year of my University degree。 
That would have been sixty five。

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00:13:14,840 --> 00:13:17,840
I completed the Bachelor of Arts
degree。 

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I completed the master's degree。
I got A scholarship to go to 

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Oxford。 
I went to Oxford in nineteen 

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sixty nine and in nineteen 
seventy。 

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I was in A class about freedom 
and responsibility taught by 

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Jonathan Glover。 
I don't know if you've mentioned

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Jonathan lover in this program， 
but he's A philosopher who。 

216
00:13:40,400 --> 00:13:43,520
I really liked his his work and 
some of the things that he did 

217
00:13:43,920 --> 00:13:47,080
were looking at。 
Applied ethics is one of the 

218
00:13:47,080 --> 00:13:49,560
early people to do that， he 
wrote A book called causing 

219
00:13:49,560 --> 00:13:52,960
death and saving lives， which I 
think was really one of the very

220
00:13:52,960 --> 00:13:58,840
good early books in in ethics。 
But this particular class that I

221
00:13:58,840 --> 00:14:01,680
was attending was on free will 
and responsibility。 

222
00:14:01,680 --> 00:14:05,240
All right， you know the argument
well， if determinism is true， 

223
00:14:05,240 --> 00:14:07,680
there are no， there's no moral 
responsibility because 

224
00:14:07,680 --> 00:14:11,640
Everything we do is determine。 
And then there was A fairly 

225
00:14:11,640 --> 00:14:15,920
small class， so plenty of time 
for discussion and in one of the

226
00:14:16,760 --> 00:14:19,800
classes I asked the question， I 
can't know， remember what the 

227
00:14:19,800 --> 00:14:21,960
question was about， but IT 
started some threat of 

228
00:14:21,960 --> 00:14:25,560
discussion。 
And after the class was over， A 

229
00:14:25,560 --> 00:14:29,840
Canadian student who was in the 
class， who I'd seen but never 

230
00:14:29,840 --> 00:14:33,120
talked to came up to me and 
said， what did you think of 

231
00:14:33,120 --> 00:14:35,400
lovers？ 
Answer to your view？ 

232
00:14:35,440 --> 00:14:38,480
and I said， well， I didn't 
really think that he fully 

233
00:14:38,480 --> 00:14:41,960
answered my objection， and 
Richard said this was his。 

234
00:14:42,480 --> 00:14:44,000
Turn。 
Out his name was Richard kashen。

235
00:14:44,320 --> 00:14:47,480
Richard said， yeah， I think you 
may be right about that。 

236
00:14:48,520 --> 00:14:50,920
Would you like to come and talk 
about this over lunch？ 

237
00:14:51,670 --> 00:14:56,390
So as Oxford students， we had A 
college to go to where we ate 

238
00:14:56,390 --> 00:14:59,910
lunch and I went to baileyola 
college with Richard。 

239
00:15:02,080 --> 00:15:05,880
And at that time， when you came 
in for lunch， there was one hot 

240
00:15:05,880 --> 00:15:09,800
dish on the only alternative of 
the hot dish was A cold salad 

241
00:15:09,800 --> 00:15:11,600
plate。 
So Richard。 

242
00:15:13,320 --> 00:15:15,960
Looked at the hot dish， which 
was spaghetti with A kind of 

243
00:15:16,040 --> 00:15:19,240
brand source on top of IT and he
said， is there meat in that 

244
00:15:19,240 --> 00:15:21,760
source？ 
And he was told there was so he 

245
00:15:21,760 --> 00:15:26,560
took the salad plate。 
And I noticed that because IT 

246
00:15:26,840 --> 00:15:29,120
was， you know， I was wondering 
what his problem was with me。 

247
00:15:29,120 --> 00:15:32,080
There were no vegetarians who I 
knew， you know， nobody that I 

248
00:15:32,080 --> 00:15:34,640
had met in my entire 
undergraduate studies， I think 

249
00:15:35,080 --> 00:15:38,640
or my first year at Oxford was A
vegetarian， IT just didn't 

250
00:15:38,640 --> 00:15:41,440
happen really， and except 
perhaps for an Indian who was 

251
00:15:41,480 --> 00:15:44,120
vegetarian for Hindu sort of 
reasons。 

252
00:15:45,320 --> 00:15:47,360
So we finished the discussion 
about free will and 

253
00:15:47,360 --> 00:15:51,120
responsibility， and then I said，
so Why did you ask about the 

254
00:15:51,120 --> 00:15:52,600
meat？ 
You know， don't you eat meat 

255
00:15:52,600 --> 00:15:55,040
white or if？ 
If so， you know Why not？ 

256
00:15:56,840 --> 00:16:01,840
And Richard said something 
pretty simple， like I don't 

257
00:16:01,840 --> 00:16:04,440
think it's right to treat 
animals the way they get treated

258
00:16:04,440 --> 00:16:08,390
to be turned into meat。 
And I said， well， you know 

259
00:16:09,390 --> 00:16:10,870
what's so wrong with IT？ 
Don't they。 

260
00:16:10,870 --> 00:16:13,990
You know， they're out in the 
fields， they're grazing， they 

261
00:16:13,990 --> 00:16:17,510
don't have any predators。 
Yes， I know they get trucked to 

262
00:16:17,510 --> 00:16:20,870
slaughter and killed， but that's
only one bad day。 

263
00:16:20,950 --> 00:16:23,390
And what seems A reasonably good
life to me。 

264
00:16:23,390 --> 00:16:26,910
And he said， no， you're wrong。 
A lot of these animals that were

265
00:16:26,910 --> 00:16:29,240
eating。 
Horrible life。 

266
00:16:29,240 --> 00:16:31,640
Yeah， they have horrible lives， 
they're inside， they don't get 

267
00:16:31,640 --> 00:16:33,360
to go outside at all or they 
don't。 

268
00:16:34,120 --> 00:16:35,920
They don't get to go on on 
grass。 

269
00:16:35,920 --> 00:16:40,880
They're very closely confined。 
And you know， it's all just 

270
00:16:40,880 --> 00:16:43,560
directed at producing the meat 
as cheaply as possible。 

271
00:16:45,600 --> 00:16:48,160
I was A bit surprised because I 
really didn't know that。 

272
00:16:50,320 --> 00:16:53,320
And Richard referred me to A 
book， the only book that was 

273
00:16:53,320 --> 00:16:56,560
around about factory farming was
called animal machines written 

274
00:16:56,560 --> 00:17:00,200
by Ruth Harrison， and IT was A 
pioneering study of what was 

275
00:17:00,200 --> 00:17:04,119
happening to farming， and IT 
quoted extensively from farming 

276
00:17:04,119 --> 00:17:06,960
magazines， so IT wasn't just her
personal opinion。 

277
00:17:07,200 --> 00:17:11,960
SHE backed IT up by showing。 
That this is what the official 

278
00:17:11,960 --> 00:17:16,280
advice to farmers or the。 
Commercial production advice to 

279
00:17:16,280 --> 00:17:19,079
farmers was how to treat their 
animals how many chickens you 

280
00:17:19,160 --> 00:17:22,319
can fit into A cage for egg 
laying hens how many？ 

281
00:17:22,720 --> 00:17:25,319
How densely you can pack the 
pigs into A shed？ 

282
00:17:26,400 --> 00:17:28,800
and I was surprised， pretty 
shocked。 

283
00:17:28,800 --> 00:17:30,760
Yeah， I think shocked is the 
right word。 

284
00:17:31,070 --> 00:17:32,990
Do I？ 
When I first look at the 

285
00:17:32,990 --> 00:17:36,310
documentary about factory farm？ 
Right， yeah， yeah， well， I 

286
00:17:36,310 --> 00:17:40,950
didn't know any documentaries 
then， but there were some photos

287
00:17:40,950 --> 00:17:43,070
in the book too actually， and 
they were pretty powerful。 

288
00:17:43,310 --> 00:17:46,390
So you first become A utility 
and then become A vegan。 

289
00:17:46,390 --> 00:17:49,070
Do you find IT is electoral 
development from your 

290
00:17:49,070 --> 00:17:51,110
victoritarian principle to I 
think？ 

291
00:17:51,390 --> 00:17:54,190
IT， I think IT was to some 
extent。 

292
00:17:55,800 --> 00:17:59,160
So when I started think， you 
know， after looking at Ruth 

293
00:17:59,160 --> 00:18:02,120
Harrison's book， I started 
thinking about， well， is there 

294
00:18:02,120 --> 00:18:05,280
perhaps something that still 
justifies US in treating animals

295
00:18:05,280 --> 00:18:10,480
in this way？ 
And I looked at various riders 

296
00:18:10,600 --> 00:18:12,960
who did justify treating 
animals。 

297
00:18:12,960 --> 00:18:15,280
They went very many actually， 
who even addressed the issue。 

298
00:18:16,960 --> 00:18:20,720
But there were some， you know， 
Thomas Aquinas said， well， God 

299
00:18:20,720 --> 00:18:22,520
has given US Dominion over the 
animals。 

300
00:18:22,520 --> 00:18:26,480
Okay， well， I was not religious。
I was an atheist by this time。 

301
00:18:27,360 --> 00:18:30,000
That wasn't going to persuade me
across。 

302
00:18:30,000 --> 00:18:33,120
Famously， descart said the 
animals are autometer than feel 

303
00:18:33,120 --> 00:18:35,640
anything that was completely。 
Uncenlausible I。 

304
00:18:35,640 --> 00:18:39,000
Thought can't said we don't have
duties to animals because 

305
00:18:39,000 --> 00:18:42,800
they're not self conscious 
beings， but but。 

306
00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:46,160
I thought， well， surely they're 
suffering matters even， you 

307
00:18:46,160 --> 00:18:48,720
know， even if they're not self 
aware， so these all seem like 

308
00:18:48,720 --> 00:18:51,240
excuses to going on to， to 
eating meat。 

309
00:18:53,310 --> 00:18:58,470
And yes， and from utilitarianism
IT flowed and in fact the early 

310
00:18:58,470 --> 00:19:02,830
utilitarians did say that， you 
know， if animals feel pain and 

311
00:19:02,830 --> 00:19:06,520
suffering。 
That that counts in some way so，

312
00:19:06,520 --> 00:19:10,720
so I think the fact that I was A
utilitarian made IT much easier 

313
00:19:10,720 --> 00:19:13,520
for me to say， oh， this is 
wrong， we shouldn't be doing 

314
00:19:13,520 --> 00:19:16,280
this then if I had been A County
or something， you might have 

315
00:19:16,280 --> 00:19:18,960
thought， well， you know， the 
greater manual County thinks 

316
00:19:18,960 --> 00:19:21,160
it's because they're not self 
conscious。 

317
00:19:21,160 --> 00:19:26,280
Maybe there's something in。 
That days many content to argue 

318
00:19:26,280 --> 00:19:29,840
for the vegan position as well 
from the understanding of 

319
00:19:29,840 --> 00:19:31,000
morality。 
Yeah。 

320
00:19:31,000 --> 00:19:33,640
Yes， well， I certainly argue the
factory farming is wrong and 

321
00:19:33,640 --> 00:19:36,670
yes， it's been good to see。 
Like Christine， coastguard。 

322
00:19:38,280 --> 00:19:41,320
Opposed factory farming and 
where we treat animals and 

323
00:19:41,920 --> 00:19:44,000
Martha nustburn from the 
aristotilian perspective， 

324
00:19:44,480 --> 00:19:47,040
absolutely so， so it's different
now， very different。 

325
00:19:47,040 --> 00:19:49,760
But not only now there's A big 
philosophical literature on 

326
00:19:49,760 --> 00:19:52,360
animal ethics， but there really 
wasn't anything at the time。 

327
00:19:52,360 --> 00:19:54,200
There was you have to go back A 
long way。 

328
00:19:54,200 --> 00:19:55,360
There'd been A big gap， you 
know？ 

329
00:19:55,360 --> 00:19:58,360
If you went back to the late 
nineteenth century。 

330
00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:02,360
There was A work by A man called
Henry salt， who was not A 

331
00:20:02,720 --> 00:20:06,680
academic philosopher。 
But sort of I guess， A general 

332
00:20:06,680 --> 00:20:09,840
social reformer would be the 
best way to describe him。 

333
00:20:09,840 --> 00:20:11,760
He wrote。 
A book called animals writes in 

334
00:20:11,760 --> 00:20:16,480
relation to social progress， in 
which he said that you know 

335
00:20:16,480 --> 00:20:19,880
animals should have rights。 
Basically， he said， if humans 

336
00:20:19,880 --> 00:20:21,240
have rights， animals should have
rights to。 

337
00:20:21,240 --> 00:20:25,840
So there was some early work but
and you can go right back to 

338
00:20:27,000 --> 00:20:29,160
plutak and Roman times and 
porphrey。 

339
00:20:30,640 --> 00:20:34,480
Helenistic Greek philosopher， 
they wrote about abstaining from

340
00:20:34,480 --> 00:20:39,000
flesh but， but there wasn't 
anything very much recently at 

341
00:20:39,000 --> 00:20:40,350
that time。 
Thank you。 

342
00:20:40,350 --> 00:20:43,590
So I think we're just about out 
of time for this segment。 

343
00:20:43,590 --> 00:20:46,790
So in the Lex segment in 
section， we will go deep into 

344
00:20:46,790 --> 00:20:50,350
the idea of dutyarianism。 
So see you next section。 

345
00:20:57,000 --> 00:21:01,280
的 節 目 好 沒 有 提 啊。 
好 好 看 啊 媽。 

346
00:21:02,120 --> 00:21:05,920
媽 昨 天 的 節 目 免 費 的 喔， 知 不 知 道 我 們
要 做 點 什 麼？ 

347
00:21:06,320 --> 00:21:11,320
咧， 我 不 知 道， 爸 爸。 
如 果 你 不 知 道 我 說 你 知 啊， 我 們 不 如 家

348
00:21:11,320 --> 00:21:17,760
有 Patriot 委 員， 每 個 月 小 小 的 月 灰 就
可 以 支 持 更 加 美 門 的 節 目 啦。 

349
00:21:18,390 --> 00:21:22,470
哇， 台 灣 的 火 車 去 買 國 好， 感 覺 偶 裝 打 
多 的 極 啦。 

350
00:21:33,270 --> 00:21:36,830
OK so， welcome back to our 
program so we have just A 

351
00:21:36,830 --> 00:21:41,110
excellent discussion with your 
personal journey to philosophy， 

352
00:21:41,110 --> 00:21:45,590
vegetarian and veganism。 
So in this section we would like

353
00:21:45,590 --> 00:21:50,310
to go deep into the idea of 
utility， although I think most 

354
00:21:50,310 --> 00:21:54,590
of our audience already heard of
IT and have certain therefore 

355
00:21:54,590 --> 00:21:58,230
understanding of IT that which 
you might to explain the basic 

356
00:21:58,230 --> 00:22:01,070
idea of the mall theory of 
utilitarianism？ 

357
00:22:01,510 --> 00:22:03,960
Absolutely。 
It's very straightforward。 

358
00:22:05,760 --> 00:22:08,920
Utilitarianism is A 
consequentialist theory。 

359
00:22:09,360 --> 00:22:12,400
That means it's A theory that 
says the right action is The One

360
00:22:12,400 --> 00:22:16,400
that has the best consequences。 
What？ 

361
00:22:16,520 --> 00:22:21,200
Is specific about utilitarianism
is that by best consequences， IT

362
00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:25,800
essentially is talking about。 
About well about。 

363
00:22:27,430 --> 00:22:32,030
Happiness and its opposite 
suffering those are the relevant

364
00:22:32,030 --> 00:22:35,230
consequences that make an action
good， at least for the classical

365
00:22:35,230 --> 00:22:38,550
version of utilitarianism。 
There are somewhat other 

366
00:22:38,550 --> 00:22:41,750
interpretations of what our well
consistent。 

367
00:22:43,520 --> 00:22:45,960
So IT might consist in the 
satisfaction of our preferences 

368
00:22:45,960 --> 00:22:49,800
according to some views， 
preferences or our desires， but 

369
00:22:50,320 --> 00:22:54,400
you can think of IT as the view 
that the right action is The One

370
00:22:54,400 --> 00:22:59,040
that does the most to improve 
well being for all of those 

371
00:22:59,040 --> 00:23:01,590
affected by our actions。 
Okay， thanks。 

372
00:23:01,630 --> 00:23:06,950
So today we're going to try to 
challenge the idea of 

373
00:23:06,950 --> 00:23:10,110
utilitarianism， although you 
find all of them are not really 

374
00:23:10,110 --> 00:23:13,510
compelling so that you Stay in 
the camera of detailitarianism。 

375
00:23:13,510 --> 00:23:17,430
So in this section we would like
to like discuss one or two of 

376
00:23:17,430 --> 00:23:20,750
them which is really famous。 
So yeah。 

377
00:23:22,960 --> 00:23:27,120
People often say vegetarianism 
is too demanding for them。 

378
00:23:27,560 --> 00:23:32,240
I have two examples， one for 
cheap field action， another for 

379
00:23:32,640 --> 00:23:35,760
live choice。 
I would call IT first of all， 

380
00:23:36,120 --> 00:23:39,640
let's say today I want to 
achieve myself and buy A couple 

381
00:23:39,640 --> 00:23:43,040
of bubble tea， all right？ 
And then all right， I feel good 

382
00:23:43,200 --> 00:23:45,880
about that。 
But eitarian may。 

383
00:23:47,120 --> 00:23:49,920
Say that I was doing something 
more。 

384
00:23:50,160 --> 00:23:52,920
Why？ 
because I could say off the 

385
00:23:52,920 --> 00:23:58,120
money and give IT to the charity
and probably probably IT end up 

386
00:23:58,120 --> 00:24:01,680
saving A life。 
So actually buying A couple 

387
00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:05,160
bubble tea is actually the wrong
thing to do so。 

388
00:24:05,360 --> 00:24:08,320
But for common people， they 
would say， wow， that's too 

389
00:24:08,320 --> 00:24:12,710
demanding， so that's my trip 
field action Example， I have 

390
00:24:12,707 --> 00:24:16,840
another which is I think。 
More significant accurate 

391
00:24:17,240 --> 00:24:21,600
because for many of US， we have 
so many so called live projects 

392
00:24:21,760 --> 00:24:26,600
for each of US， right for you to
be A philosopher， to be A public

393
00:24:26,600 --> 00:24:30,910
intellectual， right， but。 
Let's say let me given 

394
00:24:30,910 --> 00:24:35,550
hypothetical Example， right？ 
Linda wants to change her job 

395
00:24:35,550 --> 00:24:41,990
from working as A high earning 
banker to let's say to A 

396
00:24:42,670 --> 00:24:46,520
charity。 
Officer officer， receiving only 

397
00:24:46,520 --> 00:24:50,040
A humble income， right？ 
So normally we would think that 

398
00:24:50,040 --> 00:24:52,400
or that's respectable actually， 
right？ 

399
00:24:54,160 --> 00:24:59,360
Reflect your own values， you try
to be good instead of greedy 

400
00:24:59,360 --> 00:25:03,520
banker， something like that， but
we may place her but for 

401
00:25:03,520 --> 00:25:07,520
unititarian they may say， wait， 
wait A minute， SHE could do 

402
00:25:07,520 --> 00:25:11,800
something wrong because if you 
change her job well， actually he

403
00:25:11,800 --> 00:25:14,760
could Keep the high paying job 
instead of changing her job 

404
00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:19,280
because when he。 
Continues to work as A banker he

405
00:25:19,280 --> 00:25:22,360
could， he could actually donate 
A big chunk of her income 

406
00:25:22,360 --> 00:25:28,000
toaturity again instead of。 
And actually， IT could end up 

407
00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:30,840
saving A lot of lots more people
than。 

408
00:25:32,520 --> 00:25:36,080
Working directly in tractable 
organization so again for 

409
00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:42,280
utitarianism。 
Should have A wrong life choice，

410
00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:45,440
but for most of US it's fine。 
It's respectable。 

411
00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:49,440
So again， these two examples may
show that user is actually too 

412
00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:53,640
demanding for common people。 
OK， thanks for the examples。 

413
00:25:53,640 --> 00:25:57,280
Let's let's take them in turn。 
You said that instead of buying 

414
00:25:57,280 --> 00:26:00,800
the bubble T， you could donate 
your charity and save A life。 

415
00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:03,840
I don't know where you'll buy 
your bubble tea， but give well 

416
00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:05,680
estimates。 
IT takes four thousand five 

417
00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:09,400
hundred US dollars to save A 
life by providing mosquito Nets 

418
00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:13,400
for people who are otherwise at 
risk of getting bitten by 

419
00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:18,120
mosquitoes and dying。 
So your bubble tea is not going 

420
00:26:18,120 --> 00:26:20,160
to make A lot of difference。 
Of course， if you saved up， if 

421
00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:23,520
you never bought bubble tea and 
you saved up for A couple of 

422
00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:26,840
years， what what you might spend
on bubble tea then Maybe you 

423
00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:30,920
could save A life and Maybe A 
utility would say that would be 

424
00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:32,080
A Better thing to do。 
That's true。 

425
00:26:33,750 --> 00:26:37,310
So let's ask， is that claim too 
demanding well？ 

426
00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:42,240
IT may just be it is I mean yes 
to say you shouldn't spend money

427
00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:46,880
on any little indulgences like 
bubble tea or you know， other 

428
00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:50,870
larger items like you shouldn't 
upgrade your phone when the new 

429
00:26:50,867 --> 00:26:53,840
iPhone comes out， you should 
donate that and that's A more 

430
00:26:53,840 --> 00:26:58,760
substantial sum。 
So it's true that that's AA very

431
00:26:58,760 --> 00:27:01,560
demanding ethic。 
Now there's A few things to say 

432
00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:05,160
about that。 
IT might be that， given the 

433
00:27:05,160 --> 00:27:11,080
world we're in in which you can 
afford to spend some money on 

434
00:27:11,080 --> 00:27:14,440
bubble tea and perhaps you can 
afford to upgrade your phone 

435
00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:18,400
whenever the new one comes out。 
Whereas other people in this 

436
00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:22,840
world are living on the 
equivalent of two dollars 

437
00:27:22,840 --> 00:27:28,040
fifteen US per day， so less than
A thousand US dollars per year。 

438
00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:32,520
And they may not be able to 
satisfy their basic needs for 

439
00:27:32,520 --> 00:27:35,440
adequate food shelter。 
They may not be able to educate 

440
00:27:35,440 --> 00:27:38,280
their Children， so perhaps it's 
just the fact that the world is 

441
00:27:38,440 --> 00:27:43,280
so unequal。 
And also， of course， that we now

442
00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:47,720
have the ability to transfer 
some resources from the wealthy 

443
00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:52,600
nations to the poorer nations， 
and we have organizations that 

444
00:27:52,600 --> 00:27:57,680
can effectively do that and can 
help people in those poor 

445
00:27:57,680 --> 00:28:00,360
nations can。 
Save their lives， restore their 

446
00:28:00,360 --> 00:28:03,920
site。 
Perform other basic necessary 

447
00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:06,560
operations help them to start A 
business。 

448
00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:10,040
Maybe it's just that fact about 
the world， which means that 

449
00:28:10,040 --> 00:28:14,880
ethics has changed because now 
we have the opportunity to help 

450
00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:17,480
strangers at A great distance， 
which for most of our 

451
00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:19,360
evolutionary history we never 
had。 

452
00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:21,960
So IT strikes US as very 
demanding。 

453
00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:27,400
But that's just the objective 
situation we're in， so that's 

454
00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:29,720
one thing I'd say about that。 
Another thing I would say is。 

455
00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:37,040
Utilitarianism utilitarians are 
not unrealistic about human 

456
00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:39,720
nature。 
All right， we do have an ethic 

457
00:28:39,800 --> 00:28:42,720
which says you should do what 
has the best consequences， but 

458
00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:46,680
we recognize that there are very
few Saints in the world。 

459
00:28:47,110 --> 00:28:51,190
You're probably not A Saint， so，
you know， we're not going to 

460
00:28:51,190 --> 00:28:53,990
really come Down very hard on 
you for your bubble tea。 

461
00:28:55,520 --> 00:28:58,600
Because we're going to say， 
well， you know what？ 

462
00:28:58,600 --> 00:29:00,840
What do you do for people in 
poverty， right？ 

463
00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:04,600
Maybe， Maybe you already giving 
something quite significant to 

464
00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:07,240
help people。 
Maybe you're giving more than 

465
00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:11,360
most people give， but you still 
have enough to have your bubble 

466
00:29:11,360 --> 00:29:15,160
tea and enjoy IT。 
So I think utilitarians would 

467
00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:17,880
say， look， that's fine as long 
as you're giving something 

468
00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:20,720
reasonably significant。 
And perhaps if you become 

469
00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:22,320
wealthier， you're going to give 
more。 

470
00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:26,880
Then you're doing something to 
help people in need。 

471
00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:30,840
You're perhaps also contributing
to raising the standard of 

472
00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:33,320
giving in your community because
Maybe other people in your 

473
00:29:33,320 --> 00:29:37,200
community give less than you do。
So then we're going to say， you 

474
00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:38,800
know， it's。 
It's great that you're giving 

475
00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:40,480
something。 
I hope that eventually you'll be

476
00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:43,160
able to give more， but it's A 
good thing。 

477
00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:47,440
So what I'm doing here is I'm 
separating the question of。 

478
00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:52,000
Are you doing exactly？ 
What utilitarianism would say 

479
00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:54,160
you ought to do， which the 
answer is no。 

480
00:29:55,960 --> 00:29:58,480
And I'm separating that question
from the question。 

481
00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:01,320
Should you be blamed for what 
you're doing？ 

482
00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:06,600
And for the for utilitarians the
question， who should you， who 

483
00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:08,760
should you blame and who should 
you prayers？ 

484
00:30:11,040 --> 00:30:12,440
Is。 
Also A question that you answer 

485
00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:16,160
by utilitarian principles， so 
you should blame people when 

486
00:30:16,160 --> 00:30:18,000
it's useful to blame them when 
IT will lead to good 

487
00:30:18,320 --> 00:30:21,080
consequences and you should 
praise them when IT will be 

488
00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:23,720
useful to praise them。 
So let's say。 

489
00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:27,440
You're giving， I don't know， ten
percent of your income to 

490
00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:31,280
charities， but that still leaves
you enough with to buy your 

491
00:30:31,280 --> 00:30:33,120
bubble tea。 
Then you're certainly going to 

492
00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:35,200
get prize because most people in
your community。 

493
00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:39,080
And at your wealth level， don't 
give ten percent， we'll assume。 

494
00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:43,120
So that's Why I think you can 
accept the idea。 

495
00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:45,640
Yes， it's A demanding ethic。 
If you were to follow IT in 

496
00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:49,720
every respect but not following 
IT in every respect is something

497
00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:53,560
that we have to live with and we
have to live with the fact that 

498
00:30:53,560 --> 00:30:55,680
most people are going to be like
that。 

499
00:30:57,230 --> 00:31:00,830
OK， so then you had the Example 
of Linda， who's the banker 

500
00:31:00,830 --> 00:31:03,840
earning A lot of money。 
And。 

501
00:31:03,840 --> 00:31:06,880
SHE wants to do something that 
perhaps SHE thinks is going to 

502
00:31:06,880 --> 00:31:09,920
be more interesting for her。 
SHE wants to go and work for 

503
00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:13,320
charity。 
It's not clear。 

504
00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:16,320
That utilitarianism will say 
that she's wrong in doing that， 

505
00:31:16,320 --> 00:31:19,240
IT will really depend A lot on 
the circumstances， so。 

506
00:31:21,030 --> 00:31:27,070
One question is， as A banker？ 
Is SHE giving A lot to charity？ 

507
00:31:27,070 --> 00:31:29,350
How much is SHE giving to？ 
Is SHE giving to effective 

508
00:31:29,350 --> 00:31:34,870
charities if SHE is？ 
That's good， but also how badly 

509
00:31:34,870 --> 00:31:39,910
does the charity need somebody 
with her talents to work for 

510
00:31:39,910 --> 00:31:41,470
them？ 
And how effective is the 

511
00:31:41,470 --> 00:31:44,510
charity？ 
Some charities are highly 

512
00:31:44,510 --> 00:31:47,310
effective。 
I found it an organization 

513
00:31:47,310 --> 00:31:50,710
called the life you can save， 
which recommends about twenty 

514
00:31:50,710 --> 00:31:53,040
something。 
Really effective charities 

515
00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:56,040
helping people in poverty but to
get to those twenty？ 

516
00:31:56,040 --> 00:31:59,920
We had to winnow through A much 
larger number of ones that are 

517
00:31:59,960 --> 00:32:03,000
not very effective， but let's 
say that Linda has actually 

518
00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:05,800
chosen one of the really 
effective charities and that SHE

519
00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:09,080
has the skills to make that 
charity even more effective。 

520
00:32:09,960 --> 00:32:11,280
Then。 
It's quite possible that SHE 

521
00:32:11,280 --> 00:32:13,920
will do more good working for 
that charity。 

522
00:32:14,360 --> 00:32:16,240
Than。 
SHE would working as A banker， 

523
00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:20,480
even if SHE had then quite A lot
of money to give because Maybe 

524
00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:23,510
the bottleneck with A char。 
Is not that IT can't raise 

525
00:32:23,510 --> 00:32:27,510
funds， but that IT doesn't have 
the talented staff to work for 

526
00:32:27,990 --> 00:32:28,710
IT。 
That's possible。 

527
00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:33,480
But it's also。 
Possible that the decision 

528
00:32:33,480 --> 00:32:35,560
should go the other way。 
IT could be that SHE has no 

529
00:32:35,560 --> 00:32:38,440
particular skills that will help
the charity。 

530
00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:44,320
But she's able to earn A lot as 
A banker and she's able to 

531
00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:48,000
resist the temptation to live in
the same。 

532
00:32:49,720 --> 00:32:52,600
High expense lifestyle as other 
bankers at her level you know 

533
00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:56,720
who want to have the latest 
sports car or live in very flash

534
00:32:57,400 --> 00:33:01,640
penth apartments？ 
So。 

535
00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:05,160
Yeah， SHE， IT could be that the 
best thing for her to do is to 

536
00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:08,400
continue to work as A banker if 
SHE really hates being A banker，

537
00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:11,280
she's probably not going to be 
very successful at IT。 

538
00:33:11,280 --> 00:33:13,000
You know？ 
That would be unusual and then 

539
00:33:13,000 --> 00:33:15,840
Maybe it's Better for IT to do 
what SHE really would enjoy 

540
00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:19,400
doing and she'll probably work 
harder at that and do more good 

541
00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:21,760
that way。 
But IT is going to depend very 

542
00:33:21,760 --> 00:33:25,720
much on the circumstances and 
once again， if she's working for

543
00:33:25,720 --> 00:33:28,320
the charity and doing good， 
we're not really going to blame 

544
00:33:28,320 --> 00:33:31,040
her by saying， Oh yes， but you 
could have done even more good 

545
00:33:31,040 --> 00:33:33,080
as A banker by don't own any 
salary because。 

546
00:33:33,550 --> 00:33:38,350
We recognize that people want to
do not only the most good but 

547
00:33:38,350 --> 00:33:42,230
also something that they find 
intrinsically interesting to 

548
00:33:42,230 --> 00:33:44,830
pursue。 
Can I add on A follow up 

549
00:33:44,830 --> 00:33:47,910
correction because your 
response， like distinguishing 

550
00:33:47,910 --> 00:33:50,750
the Bing worth it's and the 
question of right and wrong。 

551
00:33:51,270 --> 00:33:55,030
So my follow up question is 
like， do you also distinguish 

552
00:33:55,030 --> 00:33:58,110
machine so called positive and 
negative duty？ 

553
00:33:58,110 --> 00:34:00,120
Because。 
For most of most of US， 

554
00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:03,440
according to our Intuition， we， 
we have to duty of not hurting， 

555
00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:08,239
not killing people， not 
producing suffering， but many 

556
00:34:08,239 --> 00:34:11,600
people feel like they do not 
have the duty of maximizing the 

557
00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:16,560
happiness in the world， right？ 
So， do you find the two or they 

558
00:34:16,560 --> 00:34:20,120
are just to。 
The same so as A utilitarian。 

559
00:34:20,120 --> 00:34:23,320
I don't see an intrinsic 
distinction between。 

560
00:34:26,199 --> 00:34:29,560
The positive and the negative 
duties we put that as you know， 

561
00:34:29,639 --> 00:34:33,480
the things that you do and the 
things that you refrain from 

562
00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:36,440
doing or Amit doing。 
You need to look at the 

563
00:34:36,440 --> 00:34:41,840
consequences in both cases。 
So， you know， you might be 

564
00:34:41,840 --> 00:34:44,400
saying， you know， somebody might
say， let's go back to Linda。 

565
00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:46,199
SHE was earning A lot as A 
banker。 

566
00:34:47,840 --> 00:34:50,400
SHE could have given IT away， 
but let's assume SHE didn't。 

567
00:34:52,080 --> 00:34:55,920
So by A mission Children died of
malaria who would not have died 

568
00:34:55,920 --> 00:35:00,320
if SHE had donated to the 
against malaria Foundation and 

569
00:35:00,360 --> 00:35:02,920
the Children had been sleeping 
under bed Nets。 

570
00:35:04,080 --> 00:35:08,320
Now does that mean that SHE was 
under A duty to give？ 

571
00:35:09,240 --> 00:35:14,480
Well， I would say yes， is IT the
same as the duty not to go and 

572
00:35:15,240 --> 00:35:18,920
murder these Children？ 
Well， you know， not exactly。 

573
00:35:19,360 --> 00:35:22,680
Even though the Children are 
dead both ways， I guess whether 

574
00:35:22,680 --> 00:35:26,640
they die from malaria or die 
from being moted， but obviously，

575
00:35:26,640 --> 00:35:30,000
you know， to make the effort to 
go and murder somebody makes you

576
00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:33,160
A different type of person from 
A person who says， oh， you know，

577
00:35:33,840 --> 00:35:38,240
yes， I've got lots of money， but
I want to go to some of these 

578
00:35:39,000 --> 00:35:42,400
high brand luxury brand products
I want to carry around。 

579
00:35:43,360 --> 00:35:46,880
This very expensive handbag， so 
all of my friends can see how 

580
00:35:46,880 --> 00:35:49,680
wealthy I am。 
You know， that's。 

581
00:35:49,680 --> 00:35:52,560
That's A failing， I think， but 
it's not the same as actually 

582
00:35:52,560 --> 00:35:56,160
going to kill someone， so I 
think that's Why we would 

583
00:35:56,160 --> 00:36:00,520
distinguish what we say to the 
agent again， you know， whether 

584
00:36:00,680 --> 00:36:03,520
we condemn them for what they're
doing or not， whether we praise 

585
00:36:03,520 --> 00:36:07,080
them。 
We the the distinction。 

586
00:36:07,080 --> 00:36:09,840
You're asking about between 
positive and negative duties 

587
00:36:10,080 --> 00:36:12,960
might well be relevant to how we
assess the agent， but not 

588
00:36:12,960 --> 00:36:14,720
relevant to how we assess the 
action。 

589
00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:19,000
And I wanted to follow up on the
idea of， like， the distinction 

590
00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:23,640
between plain worthiness and 
whether the action is right or 

591
00:36:23,640 --> 00:36:27,640
wrong。 
So I think at least in my from 

592
00:36:27,640 --> 00:36:32,120
my Intuition， I will tend to 
connect like the idea of playing

593
00:36:32,120 --> 00:36:34,280
wealthiness to the idea of super
arocation。 

594
00:36:35,240 --> 00:36:38,640
It's like if some action is 
super arrogatory。 

595
00:36:39,070 --> 00:36:42,990
And you do it or not， you're not
rain worthy。 

596
00:36:42,990 --> 00:36:46,910
Whether you're doing IT or not。 
So if under the utilitarian 

597
00:36:46,910 --> 00:36:51,470
account， so not you're like 
Lynda， Maybe perhaps SHE stayed 

598
00:36:52,230 --> 00:36:58,550
to be A banker。 
Is utility maximizing， but SHE 

599
00:36:59,630 --> 00:37:02,630
switched jobs to like charity or
some other jobs。 

600
00:37:03,110 --> 00:37:06,520
We will feel like。 
I'm not sure how to say IT about

601
00:37:06,520 --> 00:37:10,200
this， like， because on one hand，
like she's not doing the right 

602
00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:12,520
action， according to utilitarian
standard。 

603
00:37:14,400 --> 00:37:19,910
But on the other hand， because。 
I will tend to think utilitarian

604
00:37:20,030 --> 00:37:24,870
doesn't have the resources to 
distinguish between obligatory 

605
00:37:25,190 --> 00:37:29,030
and super arrogatory， so IT 
seems like if the Lynda case 

606
00:37:29,190 --> 00:37:33,350
she's like， we shouldn't blame 
her for switching her job to 

607
00:37:33,470 --> 00:37:37,070
some jobs that less utility 
maximizing。 

608
00:37:37,350 --> 00:37:41,430
So I'm not sure how to like 
continue the question。 

609
00:37:41,510 --> 00:37:43,470
It's just like we shouldn't 
blame her。 

610
00:37:44,200 --> 00:37:45,320
But she's not doing the right 
thing。 

611
00:37:45,320 --> 00:37:49,680
It's not even。 
Like， yeah， because she's wrong，

612
00:37:49,680 --> 00:37:52,360
and she's。 
Paying birthy yeah， so you're 

613
00:37:52,360 --> 00:37:54,800
right。 
The utilitarian does not have 

614
00:37:54,800 --> 00:37:59,000
this separate category of 
supererogatory actions because 

615
00:37:59,000 --> 00:38:04,440
you always ought to do what to 
the best of your knowledge will 

616
00:38:04,520 --> 00:38:07,520
will lead to the most good or 
another way of putting IT is to 

617
00:38:07,520 --> 00:38:10,720
say you always ought to do the 
action with the highest expected

618
00:38:10,720 --> 00:38:15,000
value where expected value is 
the value of each outcome。 

619
00:38:16,120 --> 00:38:20,840
Multiplied by the probability of
achieving that goal， so。 

620
00:38:23,080 --> 00:38:27,400
We wouldn't talk about 
supererogatory， but again， we 

621
00:38:27,400 --> 00:38:34,230
might talk about。 
Whether Linda has done more than

622
00:38:35,230 --> 00:38:39,790
you can expect of people or as 
much as one could expect of 

623
00:38:39,790 --> 00:38:43,310
people in these circumstances or
whether she's done something 

624
00:38:43,310 --> 00:38:48,950
that falls below the standard of
what people in her community and

625
00:38:48,950 --> 00:38:52,430
culture might do。 
And IT sounds like in this case 

626
00:38:52,430 --> 00:38:55,950
that the community would 
recognize。 

627
00:38:56,720 --> 00:39:01,120
That it's important to people 
have A job that interests them 

628
00:39:01,120 --> 00:39:06,360
intrinsically。 
You're not really going to blame

629
00:39:06,360 --> 00:39:10,600
somebody for changing jobs， even
if they can do slightly less 

630
00:39:10,600 --> 00:39:14,240
good， as long as if they're 
still trying to do some good， 

631
00:39:14,240 --> 00:39:18,080
you know， and。 
SHE is going to be working for 

632
00:39:18,080 --> 00:39:19,600
charity。 
After all， she'll Maybe do less 

633
00:39:19,600 --> 00:39:23,840
good than A banker， but。 
It's not like she's stopped， 

634
00:39:23,840 --> 00:39:26,800
stopped doing good at all。 
She's still trying to do 

635
00:39:26,800 --> 00:39:30,720
something to help people。 
In greater need than SHE is。 

636
00:39:31,120 --> 00:39:34,760
So again， I that's。 
That's how I would draw that 

637
00:39:34,760 --> 00:39:36,640
distinction。 
I would just say you're not 

638
00:39:36,640 --> 00:39:39,680
going to blame if what she's 
doing， but it's not because。 

639
00:39:41,190 --> 00:39:43,310
Of the distinction between 
what's obligatory and what's 

640
00:39:43,510 --> 00:39:46,590
subaruerogatory。 
So can I describe your view as A

641
00:39:46,630 --> 00:39:51,790
lessening of the classical 
utilitarianisms requirement？ 

642
00:39:51,790 --> 00:39:55,390
Because usually， as we normally 
understand IT， classical 

643
00:39:55,390 --> 00:39:59,830
utilitarianism holds that an 
action is right， even only if IT

644
00:39:59,830 --> 00:40:02,510
is like happiness or utility 
maximizing。 

645
00:40:03,030 --> 00:40:07,720
So what you said seems to be。 
Like。 

646
00:40:07,840 --> 00:40:10,720
And actually this right is not 
because IT doesn't need to be 

647
00:40:10,720 --> 00:40:14,400
utility maximizing。 
But Peter didn't said that IT is

648
00:40:14,400 --> 00:40:15,680
not wrong。 
It's still wrong。 

649
00:40:15,680 --> 00:40:16,400
No。 
Yeah。 

650
00:40:18,080 --> 00:40:21,120
Don't want to bring her。 
Maybe it's counter effective 

651
00:40:21,760 --> 00:40:25,840
because from the iterative 
perspective you bring Linda， you

652
00:40:25,840 --> 00:40:28,680
won't make him make me curb 
doing more good。 

653
00:40:29,360 --> 00:40:34,080
So IT isn't contradict to IT。 
To the classic utility 

654
00:40:34,080 --> 00:40:37,320
principal， it's still wrong 
because it's not in the center 

655
00:40:37,320 --> 00:40:40,920
is not maximizing the good， but 
we just don't want to bring her。

656
00:40:41,480 --> 00:40:43,560
That's correct， it's not。 
It's still not the right action。

657
00:40:45,120 --> 00:40:49,760
But it's， there's not。 
There's no justification for 

658
00:40:49,760 --> 00:40:53,320
blaming here unless blaming here
is going to like to do some 

659
00:40:53,320 --> 00:40:57,410
good。 
Yeah， so， so I think in this 

660
00:40:57,410 --> 00:41:01,970
section we have discussed on one
of the most common objection to 

661
00:41:01,970 --> 00:41:05,890
demanding to the utility， and in
the next segment we will 

662
00:41:05,890 --> 00:41:09,210
continue to talk about different
objections to utilitarianism。 

663
00:41:17,080 --> 00:41:23,710
通 常 透 氣， 讓 你 無 孔 都 可 以 附 近。 
均 遊 地 包 趕 你， 每 一 船 寄 庫。 

664
00:41:24,670 --> 00:41:30,990
腳 起 來 補 助 你 一 樣 除 了 各 種 T shirt，
還 有 外 套 tollback。 

665
00:41:32,800 --> 00:41:39,080
書 本 等 各 款 投 毒 式 的 產 品 除 了 香 港 本 
地， 而 且 可 以 海 外 游 扣 天。 

666
00:41:40,110 --> 00:41:56,790
大 家 快 點 上 途 讀 失 望 店 選 購 啦。 
Okay， welcome back to our show。 

667
00:41:56,910 --> 00:42:00,990
So in the last segment we have 
discussed the two demanding 

668
00:42:00,990 --> 00:42:03,750
objection in this section we 
were going to discuss。 

669
00:42:05,280 --> 00:42:08,960
A objection particular to the 
classical utilitarian， which is 

670
00:42:09,360 --> 00:42:14,080
the anti hindulistic idea， so 
introduced the objection to US。 

671
00:42:14,600 --> 00:42:18,840
Yes because like for classical 
utilitarians like the only thing

672
00:42:18,840 --> 00:42:22,440
that has intrinsability， the 
only intrinsic value so say is 

673
00:42:22,920 --> 00:42:28,440
happiness or pleasure， so IT 
strikes many people as。 

674
00:42:30,200 --> 00:42:31,720
ERT because it's。 
Too narrow too。 

675
00:42:31,720 --> 00:42:35,200
Narrow， because apparently there
are A lot of things other than 

676
00:42:35,360 --> 00:42:38,640
pleasure or happiness 
understand， understood in this 

677
00:42:38,640 --> 00:42:43,320
way to be like variable， for 
Example， we value friendship， we

678
00:42:43,320 --> 00:42:49,240
value beauty， we value truth and
the reason Why we value those 

679
00:42:49,240 --> 00:42:53,640
things are not because， like 
they brings US happiness like 

680
00:42:53,640 --> 00:42:57,640
you can imagine， like writing A 
poem， the process of writing may

681
00:42:57,640 --> 00:43:01,000
be payingful and。 
Like， although after finishing A

682
00:43:01,000 --> 00:43:04,600
poem， the poet may feel like 
happy pleasure。 

683
00:43:06,360 --> 00:43:10,240
Please but。 
We can assume that in A lot of 

684
00:43:10,240 --> 00:43:14,600
cases， the pleasure that the 
poet gains is not enough to 

685
00:43:14,600 --> 00:43:18,280
offset the suffering he had 
during the process of writing。 

686
00:43:18,280 --> 00:43:20,280
I think like writing A 
philosophy paper may be the 

687
00:43:20,280 --> 00:43:24,080
same， at least for me。 
I'm sorry you suffer when you 

688
00:43:24,080 --> 00:43:26,750
ride philosophy。 
You were Happier。 

689
00:43:26,950 --> 00:43:29,870
Not even pressure gain only 
paying。 

690
00:43:30,510 --> 00:43:34,430
Like mom Instrumental like get A
great finisher， call etcetera。 

691
00:43:34,910 --> 00:43:38,310
But yeah， that's one cases and 
we can Maybe we can further 

692
00:43:38,310 --> 00:43:43,430
assume in those cases that like 
those readers of the program may

693
00:43:43,430 --> 00:43:46,550
not like their happiness from 
reading the poem may not be 

694
00:43:46,550 --> 00:43:51,030
enough to offset like the paying
the suffering he has。 

695
00:43:51,760 --> 00:43:54,120
During。 
The process it's also related 

696
00:43:54,120 --> 00:43:58,120
to。 
A very old objection against 

697
00:43:58,120 --> 00:44:00,440
usitarian classical eitarians， 
like。 

698
00:44:02,360 --> 00:44:07,000
Philosopher would say， ban them，
which is A classical utarian， 

699
00:44:07,160 --> 00:44:10,960
all right back in。 
Eighteen centuries。 

700
00:44:10,960 --> 00:44:12,840
Late in thirty nineteen？ 
Yeah。 

701
00:44:14,160 --> 00:44:19,280
Even older than that， all right？
They call his usitarian， some 

702
00:44:19,280 --> 00:44:21,840
classical usitarian， some 
philosophy of pig， right？ 

703
00:44:22,240 --> 00:44:28,280
IT recommends A live to be 
pleasurable， rather than。 

704
00:44:30,000 --> 00:44:31,680
Rather than studying philosophy，
or。 

705
00:44:32,670 --> 00:44:35,670
Too perceive of。 
Beauty things like virtue beauty

706
00:44:35,670 --> 00:44:38,030
is it's not relevant。 
What's relevant is only 

707
00:44:38,030 --> 00:44:41,350
pleasure。 
Yeah， yes， so some people find 

708
00:44:41,350 --> 00:44:46,030
this like unsatisfactory at 
least like we have A lot。 

709
00:44:46,030 --> 00:44:51,510
Of even for some classical like 
JS mu yeah， we find this kind of

710
00:44:51,510 --> 00:44:56,150
objection， philosophy or kind of
reasonable and so。 

711
00:44:56,150 --> 00:44:58,590
He tried to distinguished the 
quality of pressure。 

712
00:44:59,320 --> 00:45:01,240
He distinguished higher and 
lower pleasures， yes。 

713
00:45:03,000 --> 00:45:05,840
I don't think you can really do 
that and remain A hiddenist。 

714
00:45:05,840 --> 00:45:07,360
I think that was A mistake that 
mill made。 

715
00:45:07,360 --> 00:45:13,440
I think he was too conservative 
to eager to conform to the views

716
00:45:13,440 --> 00:45:16,280
of his contemporaries。 
People like Thomas Carlisle， who

717
00:45:16,280 --> 00:45:19,280
I think use this philosophy of 
swine objection。 

718
00:45:21,200 --> 00:45:24,440
And he he didn't want to seem to
be anti intellectual。 

719
00:45:24,800 --> 00:45:27,240
I think Benton was much more 
honest， you know， Benton had 

720
00:45:27,280 --> 00:45:29,680
this famous saying regarding 
your poet。 

721
00:45:30,440 --> 00:45:32,600
He said pushpin is as good as 
poetry。 

722
00:45:32,600 --> 00:45:35,960
Pushpin was A game that you 
played in pubs in England rather

723
00:45:35,960 --> 00:45:39,240
simple game， but I think the the
full quotation is quantities of 

724
00:45:39,240 --> 00:45:42,160
pleasure being equal。 
Pushpin is as good as poetry 

725
00:45:42,680 --> 00:45:47,040
now， of course that's。 
That's A caveat， which means you

726
00:45:47,040 --> 00:45:49,840
know， Maybe quantity is A 
pleasure in the long Run are not

727
00:45:49,840 --> 00:45:53,110
going to be equal Maybe。 
Pushpin will get boring if you 

728
00:45:53,110 --> 00:45:56,710
Keep playing IT every Friday 
night in the pub and eventually 

729
00:45:56,710 --> 00:45:59,790
you want something more varied， 
you know？ 

730
00:45:59,830 --> 00:46:04,110
And poetry may bring you some 
greater pleasures so， but 

731
00:46:04,110 --> 00:46:07,630
bentham's view would be， IT is 
whatever gives you greater 

732
00:46:07,630 --> 00:46:09,550
pleasure。 
So Bentham， I think is A true 

733
00:46:09,550 --> 00:46:13,310
hedanist mill。 
I think says that he's A 

734
00:46:13,310 --> 00:46:15,510
hedonist， but。 
Actually doesn't stick to IT 

735
00:46:15,510 --> 00:46:17,670
when IT comes to the crunch。 
Very few time。 

736
00:46:17,670 --> 00:46:22,150
I first hurt of meal being A too
conservative because most。 

737
00:46:22,270 --> 00:46:24,270
Town people will praise him as A
radical。 

738
00:46:24,270 --> 00:46:26,110
They had to change the 
convention。 

739
00:46:26,150 --> 00:46:29,430
Well in some respective course。 
That's true and his great work 

740
00:46:29,470 --> 00:46:32,550
on the subjection of women was A
very radical and progressive 

741
00:46:32,550 --> 00:46:37,360
work for the time。 
But I think he really， you know，

742
00:46:37,360 --> 00:46:40,280
well， I can tell you IT。 
Wasn't quite the right term， but

743
00:46:40,480 --> 00:46:45,360
conform wanting to conform to 
the intellectual Melia of his 

744
00:46:45,360 --> 00:46:47,440
day。 
I agree with saying。 

745
00:46:47,440 --> 00:46:49,840
Visionary enough， is IT the 
right time？ 

746
00:46:49,880 --> 00:46:51,280
Not。 
Revisionary enough， yes， that's 

747
00:46:51,280 --> 00:46:53,840
right， yeah。 
I believe IT because as I， as 

748
00:46:53,840 --> 00:46:58,240
far as I know， jsmal actually 
even at some point defend 

749
00:46:58,240 --> 00:47:01,520
colonalism， right， so。 
He worked for the India Office。 

750
00:47:02,600 --> 00:47:04,400
He was actually， he felt most of
his working life。 

751
00:47:04,760 --> 00:47:08,880
When compare IT to A ban from， 
he's much more， I think。 

752
00:47:09,280 --> 00:47:11,560
Benton was more more revisionary
in your term。 

753
00:47:11,560 --> 00:47:14,920
Yeah， more already so。 
What about the question， do you 

754
00:47:14,920 --> 00:47:16,880
the question？ 
Yes， do you think it's too 

755
00:47:16,880 --> 00:47:18,920
narrow set off the question。 
It's interesting。 

756
00:47:19,040 --> 00:47:21,320
Value。 
Yeah， this objections succeed。 

757
00:47:21,520 --> 00:47:25,400
Or how can utilitarian 
accommodate such objections 

758
00:47:25,680 --> 00:47:26,840
like。 
Well， the utilitarian。 

759
00:47:27,880 --> 00:47:30,360
Will disagree with what the 
hedonistic utilitarian at least 

760
00:47:30,360 --> 00:47:33,800
we'll disagree with what you 
said about these other things 

761
00:47:34,400 --> 00:47:37,000
being intrinsically good， you 
know， utilitarians will 

762
00:47:37,000 --> 00:47:40,840
generally say yes， you。 
Know truth is good。 

763
00:47:40,840 --> 00:47:43,440
What were your other examples？ 
Friendship， friendship is good 

764
00:47:43,520 --> 00:47:45,400
beauty。 
But。 

765
00:47:45,400 --> 00:47:49,120
They will say。 
They good because they 

766
00:47:49,120 --> 00:47:53,120
contribute to happiness and I 
would say， you know， happiness 

767
00:47:53,120 --> 00:47:56,790
in the broadest sense。 
And that's the problem with the 

768
00:47:56,870 --> 00:47:58,310
philosophy of pigs objection， 
right？ 

769
00:48:00,040 --> 00:48:03,240
For humans anyway， there are 
more ways to get pleasure than 

770
00:48:03,240 --> 00:48:07,120
wallowing in the mud。 
And I suppose more ways to get 

771
00:48:07,120 --> 00:48:09,320
pleasure than having sex， which 
is another pleasure that 

772
00:48:09,560 --> 00:48:14,600
presumably pigs have as well， 
but we also get pleasure for 

773
00:48:14,600 --> 00:48:19,040
intellectual pursuits from。 
I would think A poet would 

774
00:48:19,040 --> 00:48:22,440
normally get pleasure from 
creating A poem that really 

775
00:48:22,440 --> 00:48:24,840
works， that is A poem of high 
quality。 

776
00:48:26,480 --> 00:48:30,440
Friendship is， I think， 
essential to A happy human life。

777
00:48:31,560 --> 00:48:33,240
You。 
Know we we are social mammals。 

778
00:48:33,240 --> 00:48:36,880
I think there's very few humans 
who couldn't really live and be 

779
00:48:36,880 --> 00:48:40,600
happy with that loving and 
caring relationships with other 

780
00:48:40,600 --> 00:48:44,640
humans。 
So I think friendship has great 

781
00:48:44,640 --> 00:48:47,200
value， but again I think it's 
Instrumental value。 

782
00:48:48,880 --> 00:48:53,840
Beauty is an interesting Example
because GE more at one stage 

783
00:48:54,320 --> 00:48:58,560
made the objection to hedonism 
that he asked the reader to 

784
00:48:58,560 --> 00:49:02,320
imagine two possible worlds， one
of them the most beautiful world

785
00:49:02,320 --> 00:49:04,080
you can imagine。 
You know， I guess you can think 

786
00:49:04,080 --> 00:49:07,040
of。 
Gorgeous mountains and lakes and

787
00:49:07,840 --> 00:49:11,360
spectacular views and the other，
he says， I think just one heap 

788
00:49:11,360 --> 00:49:12,880
of filth。 
I don't quite know what he was 

789
00:49:12,880 --> 00:49:15,600
imagining is filth， but anyway， 
you know very。 

790
00:49:16,640 --> 00:49:19,320
Yeah， I guess you could think of
IT as A Run Down building site 

791
00:49:19,320 --> 00:49:21,640
or something like that。 
I don't know， and Mills and 

792
00:49:21,640 --> 00:49:26,000
sorry more said， even if there 
was nobody to appreciate the 

793
00:49:26,000 --> 00:49:29,400
beauty of one or to be dismayed 
by the ugliness of the other， 

794
00:49:29,400 --> 00:49:33,160
it's still Better that the 
beautiful world should exist 

795
00:49:33,520 --> 00:49:37,480
than that the ugly world should 
exist， and that just doesn't 

796
00:49:37,480 --> 00:49:41,480
strike me as true at all， right？
I think beauty is only A value 

797
00:49:41,680 --> 00:49:44,080
if there are beings who can 
appreciate the beauty。 

798
00:49:44,880 --> 00:49:46,760
And ugliness only matters if 
they're being so you can 

799
00:49:47,000 --> 00:49:50,520
appreciate。 
Or not appreciate that's the 

800
00:49:50,520 --> 00:49:53,480
wrong word who are repelled by 
the uglyness。 

801
00:49:55,200 --> 00:49:57,960
It's just have A follow up 
question， does IT mean like， if 

802
00:49:57,960 --> 00:50:03,160
let's say II would be poet and 
considering rather write A poem，

803
00:50:03,360 --> 00:50:07,070
although？ 
嗯， I would say just job your 

804
00:50:07,070 --> 00:50:09,720
career。 
OK， yes， that's the question I 

805
00:50:09,723 --> 00:50:12,350
want to ask you because we。 
There， you've got the iPad 

806
00:50:12,350 --> 00:50:13,790
there， start scribbling some 
poetry。 

807
00:50:15,640 --> 00:50:19,840
IT feels like when I considering
where to write A poem or whether

808
00:50:20,040 --> 00:50:25,080
I become A poet， like I have to 
calculate the expected values of

809
00:50:25,080 --> 00:50:29,880
like the happiness I can bring 
US about of being A poet， and if

810
00:50:29,880 --> 00:50:33,480
I don't find IT worthy like 
expected value is much lower 

811
00:50:33,480 --> 00:50:36,960
than I do something else。 
It's sort of like kind of 

812
00:50:36,960 --> 00:50:40,240
connected to the Linda Example 
we've talked about last session，

813
00:50:40,400 --> 00:50:42,280
but it's more about personal 
choice now。 

814
00:50:42,280 --> 00:50:44,760
We are not like trying to do 
good to others。 

815
00:50:45,680 --> 00:50:47,480
But it's trying to be A 
utilitarian。 

816
00:50:47,480 --> 00:50:51,000
IT doesn't mean that we like 
just as the Linda case we need 

817
00:50:51,000 --> 00:50:54,880
to like。 
Just drop poetry and do 

818
00:50:54,880 --> 00:50:56,880
something else， perhaps be A 
banker ETC。 

819
00:50:58,500 --> 00:51:03,100
I think IT。 
Would dependent how strong your 

820
00:51:03,100 --> 00:51:07,220
desire to do poetry is， you 
know， if if you have this 

821
00:51:07,220 --> 00:51:11,660
creative urge and you think I 
could be A poet and right 

822
00:51:12,020 --> 00:51:17,080
worthwhile poems。 
Maybe it's worth giving IT A 

823
00:51:17,080 --> 00:51:18,560
try， right？ 
I don't know that I would 

824
00:51:19,040 --> 00:51:23,400
abandon your lucrative career as
A banker and that might be A bit

825
00:51:23,400 --> 00:51:26,320
risky， but you could try writing
poems over the weekend or 

826
00:51:26,320 --> 00:51:28,840
something and see whether you 
have some talent for writing 

827
00:51:28,840 --> 00:51:32,200
poetry。 
And if you did， Maybe you would 

828
00:51:32,400 --> 00:51:34,960
eventually hope to move in in 
that direction。 

829
00:51:36,760 --> 00:51:39,440
So it's， and I don't think it's 
A matter of trying to calculate。

830
00:51:39,440 --> 00:51:41,360
It's too hard， you know？ 
If you've never really written 

831
00:51:41,360 --> 00:51:43,600
poetry， but you have the thought
that you could， IT would be too 

832
00:51:43,600 --> 00:51:47,120
hard to calculate whether you 
could be。 

833
00:51:48,840 --> 00:51:52,640
A great poet who would write 
wonderful poems， so I think 

834
00:51:53,400 --> 00:51:57,960
probably。 
To some extent， we would say if 

835
00:51:57,960 --> 00:52:00,920
it's really making you unhappy 
that you're not getting time to 

836
00:52:00,920 --> 00:52:03,880
write poems and you want to 
write poems， then sure， you 

837
00:52:04,040 --> 00:52:06,080
know， take A vacation from your 
job。 

838
00:52:06,600 --> 00:52:10,640
Try writing some poems， see how 
IT works at and when you know 

839
00:52:10,640 --> 00:52:12,920
how good you are。 
As A poet， you'll be in A Better

840
00:52:12,920 --> 00:52:16,480
position to estimate whether 
perhaps you can contribute more 

841
00:52:16,520 --> 00:52:20,720
to human well being by writing 
poems that you can as A banker， 

842
00:52:20,720 --> 00:52:23,420
it's possible。 
But， but you won't know Until 

843
00:52:23,420 --> 00:52:27,640
You know how good you are。 
So so can I can I further ask， 

844
00:52:28,200 --> 00:52:32,400
so do you think it's really the 
case that Everything will be 

845
00:52:32,400 --> 00:52:37,560
Instrumental value？ 
In order to get happiness so you

846
00:52:37,560 --> 00:52:42,320
can really disrect the intrinsic
value of the value we normally 

847
00:52:42,320 --> 00:52:44,680
think they are intenseically 
valuable like the presumpture， 

848
00:52:44,800 --> 00:52:49,710
for Example。 
So puts up truth like the 

849
00:52:49,710 --> 00:52:53,670
mathematician in living in the 
alphary tower remote from the 

850
00:52:53,750 --> 00:52:55,710
world。 
Just want to provide some proof 

851
00:52:55,790 --> 00:52:59,470
for some formula。 
At the end of the day， they 

852
00:52:59,470 --> 00:53:03,270
pursuit of mathematical truth 
will not make any difference in 

853
00:53:03,270 --> 00:53:07,430
the Real World。 
So we will just say that so they

854
00:53:07,430 --> 00:53:10,920
are doing something meaningless。
You say？ 

855
00:53:11,400 --> 00:53:15,120
That someone would feel offend 
that by comment， but。 

856
00:53:15,120 --> 00:53:19,240
Maybe， but the question？ 
Comments are right， okay？ 

857
00:53:21,600 --> 00:53:24,440
And so， I mean， I think there 
were some there have。 

858
00:53:24,440 --> 00:53:27,200
Been some mathematical truths 
that at the time they were 

859
00:53:27,200 --> 00:53:28,880
discovered and people pursued 
them。 

860
00:53:30,680 --> 00:53:33,200
One might have said that's 
completely pointless， you know？ 

861
00:53:33,200 --> 00:53:35,640
Yes， you've proved something， 
but it's irrelevant won't make 

862
00:53:35,640 --> 00:53:38,560
any difference to anyone's life。
And then later on， somebody has 

863
00:53:38,560 --> 00:53:42,520
come along with some applied 
problem and actually that 

864
00:53:42,880 --> 00:53:48,320
mathematical truth proved to be 
essential for for an application

865
00:53:48,320 --> 00:53:53,280
which was greatly beneficial。 
I can't think of examples at the

866
00:53:53,280 --> 00:53:56,720
moment， but I believe there are 
some such examples， so IT may be

867
00:53:56,720 --> 00:54:00,920
that it's worthwhile having 
people with great mathematical 

868
00:54:00,920 --> 00:54:04,840
minds prove some things because 
some somewhere Down the line IT 

869
00:54:05,040 --> 00:54:07,240
IT may become valuable and 
important。 

870
00:54:09,040 --> 00:54:12,960
But if not。 
Then yeah， I'm going to say， 

871
00:54:12,960 --> 00:54:16,080
look。 
We have this sense of things 

872
00:54:16,080 --> 00:54:19,600
having intrinsic value， and 
Sometimes Maybe。 

873
00:54:20,280 --> 00:54:22,560
It's A good。 
Thing， Maybe， you know， go back 

874
00:54:22,560 --> 00:54:24,640
to the Sheriff case。 
Maybe it's A good thing that we 

875
00:54:24,640 --> 00:54:27,550
have this Intuition。 
That it's wrong for an officer 

876
00:54:27,550 --> 00:54:32,680
of the law to fake evidence。 
And it's good that we have that 

877
00:54:32,680 --> 00:54:37,800
Intuition because otherwise too 
many law officers will be faking

878
00:54:37,800 --> 00:54:40,840
things just because you know， 
they think， oh， I know this 

879
00:54:40,840 --> 00:54:44,880
guy's A bad person， but I can't 
really PIN the crime on him， but

880
00:54:44,880 --> 00:54:47,440
I'll fake something up and then 
we can lock him away for A few 

881
00:54:47,440 --> 00:54:52,320
years and we don't want。 
Police or prosecutors to be 

882
00:54:52,320 --> 00:54:54,600
doing that so some。 
It's it's A good。 

883
00:54:54,600 --> 00:54:57,000
Thing that we may believe that 
these things are intrinsic 

884
00:54:57,000 --> 00:55:02,200
value， but Maybe they're not。 
And this of course， does pose an

885
00:55:02,520 --> 00:55:06,880
interesting issue for 
utilitarians， because if IT is 

886
00:55:06,880 --> 00:55:09,760
good that we believe some things
are intrinsic value like justice

887
00:55:09,760 --> 00:55:12,960
or truth or whatever。 
And here I am on this podcast 

888
00:55:12,960 --> 00:55:15,600
now telling your viewers that 
it's not， Maybe I shouldn't be 

889
00:55:15,600 --> 00:55:16,960
doing this right？ 
Maybe。 

890
00:55:16,960 --> 00:55:20,400
I government houses comes again。
That's right。 

891
00:55:20,400 --> 00:55:22,000
That's what Bernard Williams 
called。 

892
00:55:23,640 --> 00:55:26,520
He he objected to sidgwick， who 
I think is actually the greatest

893
00:55:26,520 --> 00:55:29,240
of the utilitarian philosophers 
we've talked about Bentham， and 

894
00:55:29,240 --> 00:55:32,160
we've talked about mill。 
I think Henry sedwick is A much 

895
00:55:32,160 --> 00:55:35,240
Better philosopher than either 
bent them or meal， not perhaps 

896
00:55:35,240 --> 00:55:40,000
as creative and you know， wide 
wide interest has Bentham and 

897
00:55:40,000 --> 00:55:43,000
didn't write A great essay on 
Liberty like mildid。 

898
00:55:44,750 --> 00:55:49,230
Or on the position of women， but
you know A very careful， 

899
00:55:49,230 --> 00:55:53,030
accurate velocity， systematic 
philosopher。 

900
00:55:53,030 --> 00:55:57,470
That's right， and he did talk 
explicitly about this idea of 

901
00:55:57,470 --> 00:56:01,270
esoteric morality。 
That is the idea that Sometimes 

902
00:56:01,510 --> 00:56:03,750
IT might be right on utilitarian
grounds。 

903
00:56:05,280 --> 00:56:09,880
Not to say publicly what we know
is the right thing to do， and 

904
00:56:09,880 --> 00:56:12,520
Bernard Williams calling this 
famous phrase government has 

905
00:56:12,520 --> 00:56:18,080
morality thinking of the 
Europeans in their white painted

906
00:56:18,080 --> 00:56:20,200
government has building 
somewhere in the colonies 

907
00:56:20,480 --> 00:56:24,000
telling， saying， well really？ 
We ought to do this because 

908
00:56:24,000 --> 00:56:28,160
it'll be for the benefit of US 
and the British Empire， but we 

909
00:56:28,160 --> 00:56:30,160
won't tell the natives what 
we're doing。 

910
00:56:31,120 --> 00:56:33,840
And even if they're really 
objectively thinking it's the 

911
00:56:33,840 --> 00:56:38,240
best for Everybody， including 
for the local people， we don't 

912
00:56:38,240 --> 00:56:40,600
want to really tell them because
they won't be。 

913
00:56:40,600 --> 00:56:43,000
Able to understand IT， you know 
they're not as sophisticated in 

914
00:56:43,000 --> 00:56:45,800
intellectuals like we are， and 
they won't be able to understand

915
00:56:46,080 --> 00:56:48,520
IT。 
So yes， I mean， there can be an 

916
00:56:48,520 --> 00:56:51,160
abusive as esetary morality， 
but。 

917
00:56:52,920 --> 00:56:56,480
I have defended Cedric on this 
in the book the point of view of

918
00:56:56,480 --> 00:57:00,280
the universe， which I coauthored
with catagina de lazarik， A 

919
00:57:00,880 --> 00:57:05,160
Polish philosopher。 
and I think I think you， it's 

920
00:57:05,160 --> 00:57:08,720
actually hard to deny that 
Sometimes that is the right 

921
00:57:08,720 --> 00:57:11,280
position to to do well。 
One thing that's different， 

922
00:57:11,280 --> 00:57:14,800
though， is that sidwick made 
this statement in A five hundred

923
00:57:14,800 --> 00:57:17,480
page work of philosophy， which 
very few。 

924
00:57:18,480 --> 00:57:20,600
People were going to read or the
people who were going to read， 

925
00:57:20,600 --> 00:57:23,920
we're going to be people who 
would appreciate the point， you 

926
00:57:23,920 --> 00:57:25,480
know？ 
Now we talk about in the podcast

927
00:57:25,480 --> 00:57:29,600
and I'm sure your audience is 
also very sophisticated， but you

928
00:57:29,600 --> 00:57:33,280
know， we we do have wider 
audiences than Cedric ever did， 

929
00:57:33,280 --> 00:57:36,240
and so that there's A bit more 
of A paradox in talking about 

930
00:57:36,240 --> 00:57:39,390
these things。 
Put IT in this way， so Why we 

931
00:57:39,390 --> 00:57:43,310
believe that pursuit of truth 
perceability is intensically 

932
00:57:43,310 --> 00:57:47,550
valuable because at the end is 
consequently beneficial？ 

933
00:57:47,750 --> 00:57:50,310
Better that we should believe。 
That we have to make them to 

934
00:57:50,310 --> 00:57:53,150
believe that they are 
intrinsically valuable， but 

935
00:57:53,150 --> 00:57:57,710
actually they are not。 
Is IT okay？ 

936
00:57:57,710 --> 00:57:59,310
Okay。 
So should I continue on another 

937
00:57:59,350 --> 00:58:03,830
projection on the hidden system？
Like， which is the very well 

938
00:58:03,830 --> 00:58:07,190
known experienced machine 
objection that's just like， use 

939
00:58:07,190 --> 00:58:10,350
A couple of minutes。 
No one minute to explain to the 

940
00:58:10,350 --> 00:58:13,510
I will do that。 
So like suppose there is an 

941
00:58:13,870 --> 00:58:18,350
experience simulating machine 
which can simulate any 

942
00:58:18,350 --> 00:58:22,590
experience you would like to 
have so you can simulate like 

943
00:58:22,590 --> 00:58:25,950
whatever you find pleasant。 
Okay， whatever you make you 

944
00:58:25,950 --> 00:58:31,230
happy and it's interesting that 
this machine has A special 

945
00:58:31,230 --> 00:58:34,280
feature which is。 
When people get into the 

946
00:58:34,280 --> 00:58:37,880
machine， they forget that they 
are in the machine， that what 

947
00:58:37,880 --> 00:58:39,960
they are experiencing is not 
real。 

948
00:58:40,560 --> 00:58:44,440
So we chainnam and like standing
in front of the machine， 

949
00:58:44,440 --> 00:58:48,520
confronting A choice now whether
to get into the machine for the 

950
00:58:48,520 --> 00:58:54,200
rest of my life， like if I get 
into the machine or of all 

951
00:58:54,200 --> 00:58:59,000
Everything I want to have。 
Will， I can experience IT like 

952
00:58:59,000 --> 00:59:01,720
Maybe I want to be A well known 
philosophers。 

953
00:59:01,720 --> 00:59:06,400
I make contributions like to 
philosophy， Maybe just as like 

954
00:59:06,560 --> 00:59:13,400
Peter， yeah， and definitely in 
the Real World， let's assume I 

955
00:59:13,400 --> 00:59:17,560
hope it's not the case that I 
won't be able to do that and I 

956
00:59:17,560 --> 00:59:21,520
won't like the utility or the 
happiness that I can bring 

957
00:59:21,520 --> 00:59:24,960
about。 
By staying in the Real World is 

958
00:59:24,960 --> 00:59:29,720
not as high as the utility I can
bring about when I decide to go 

959
00:59:29,720 --> 00:59:32,760
into the machine。 
So in this case， utilitarianism 

960
00:59:33,160 --> 00:59:37,760
seems will say that yes， like 
chingdam used to go into the 

961
00:59:37,760 --> 00:59:42,320
machine because it's the best 
outcome we can have for the 

962
00:59:42,320 --> 00:59:49,350
well， okay and but it's A bit。 
Surprising because we normally 

963
00:59:49,350 --> 00:59:52,230
will think like， oh， that's not 
real， you're just having 

964
00:59:52,230 --> 00:59:56,510
experience without really having
those achievements like you。 

965
00:59:56,510 --> 00:59:59,910
You are in the machine。 
You have your experience like to

966
00:59:59,910 --> 01:00:02,190
become A very famous 
philosopher， but you're not 

967
01:00:02,190 --> 01:00:04,670
really A very famous philosopher
like。 

968
01:00:04,910 --> 01:00:08,190
IT seems like this suggestion 
suggests what is really 

969
01:00:08,190 --> 01:00:10,790
important。 
What is really valuable is not 

970
01:00:10,790 --> 01:00:13,350
the pleasure， not the 
experience， but the achievement 

971
01:00:13,350 --> 01:00:15,840
itself。 
So that constitute an objection 

972
01:00:15,840 --> 01:00:20,150
to utilitarianism。 
Yes， IT does。 

973
01:00:20,310 --> 01:00:24,230
IT is an objection specifically 
to hedonistic utilitarianism。 

974
01:00:24,230 --> 01:00:27,670
I think because with preference 
utilitarianism， you can say， 

975
01:00:27,670 --> 01:00:31,230
well， it's my preference is to 
be living in the Real World and 

976
01:00:31,230 --> 01:00:32,590
to know that I'm living in the 
Real World。 

977
01:00:34,400 --> 01:00:36,960
I don't think I also don't think
it's A knockdown。 

978
01:00:36,960 --> 01:00:42,410
Objection to hedanism。 
There's A number of reasons why 

979
01:00:42,413 --> 01:00:45,840
I say that， but let me just take
up one thing in in your Example，

980
01:00:46,280 --> 01:00:50,160
you were suggesting that the 
pleasure that you would get by 

981
01:00:50,160 --> 01:00:55,600
going into the machine would be 
greater than the pleasure or the

982
01:00:55,600 --> 01:01:00,080
suffering you can relieve， not 
only for you， but for Everybody 

983
01:01:00,080 --> 01:01:02,560
in the Real World， right？ 
Because if not， then A 

984
01:01:02,560 --> 01:01:05,160
utilitarian will say， well， it's
wrong to get in the machine 

985
01:01:05,160 --> 01:01:07,480
because you're just an egoistic 
hedonist。 

986
01:01:07,480 --> 01:01:09,240
You're just thinking of 
yourself， if you get in the 

987
01:01:09,240 --> 01:01:13,470
machine， whereas if you don't。 
The machine， you're A universal 

988
01:01:13,470 --> 01:01:15,750
hedonist， which is what 
utilitarians are， that is you 

989
01:01:15,750 --> 01:01:19,710
want to maximize pleasure and 
minimize pain for everyone。 

990
01:01:20,070 --> 01:01:23,590
Yeah， yeah， yeah， I think 
actually we can try sort of 

991
01:01:23,590 --> 01:01:27,430
universalizing the Example like 
this time， the choice is not 

992
01:01:27,430 --> 01:01:30,950
just I whether I myself go into 
the machine， but whether we 

993
01:01:30,950 --> 01:01:34,030
should build the machine， assume
that's affordable， right in 

994
01:01:34,030 --> 01:01:36,550
affordable course so that 
everyone can enter into the 

995
01:01:36,550 --> 01:01:40,310
machine just like matrix movies 
like everyone in the machine 

996
01:01:40,710 --> 01:01:44,470
like so that like。 
Everyone can experience like the

997
01:01:44,470 --> 01:01:46,790
happy experience that there is 
no suffering anymore in the in 

998
01:01:46,790 --> 01:01:48,110
the world。 
How about？ 

999
01:01:48,190 --> 01:01:51,190
Animal suffering so all the 
animals go into the machine as 

1000
01:01:51,190 --> 01:01:54,710
well and really just just， you 
know， imagine that they're 

1001
01:01:54,870 --> 01:01:57,510
eating the wonderful food or 
something， or。 

1002
01:01:57,870 --> 01:02:02,070
Yeah， we can， or if not at 
least， like if all people get 

1003
01:02:02,070 --> 01:02:05,230
into those machines like we can 
relieve A lot of animal 

1004
01:02:05,230 --> 01:02:08,800
suffering right now。 
Well， I guess， at least at least

1005
01:02:08,800 --> 01:02:11,360
the humans will stop inflicting 
the immense amount of suffering 

1006
01:02:11,360 --> 01:02:13,640
that they're now inflicting 
animals， yes， but of course 

1007
01:02:13,640 --> 01:02:16,800
there is also animal suffering 
in nature， which we're not 

1008
01:02:16,800 --> 01:02:19,280
relieving， but then we're not 
relieving IT at the moment 

1009
01:02:19,280 --> 01:02:21,040
anyway。 
Maybe One Day we could。 

1010
01:02:21,480 --> 01:02:25,080
Yeah， so。 
I think I'm still going to bite 

1011
01:02:25,080 --> 01:02:28,840
the bullet and say if in fact， 
the machine is like this and if 

1012
01:02:28,840 --> 01:02:34,320
IT can produce more pleasure for
Everybody and less pain and 

1013
01:02:34,320 --> 01:02:38,400
suffering for Everybody。 
That would be A good thing to do

1014
01:02:38,520 --> 01:02:43,640
to go into the machine， and this
is also something that lazar 

1015
01:02:43,640 --> 01:02:46,440
erratic and I discuss in the 
point of view of the universe， 

1016
01:02:46,440 --> 01:02:52,480
and we cite there the suggestion
that IT may be that the reason 

1017
01:02:52,480 --> 01:02:57,520
that we're reluctant to go in 
the machine is status quo bias。 

1018
01:02:57,560 --> 01:03:01,840
So psychologists have 
demonstrated that we are biased 

1019
01:03:01,840 --> 01:03:04,600
towards maintaining the 
situation we're in now， unless 

1020
01:03:04,600 --> 01:03:06,880
of course it's really 
intolerable， but in general 

1021
01:03:06,880 --> 01:03:09,550
we're biased。 
Maintaining the situation now 

1022
01:03:09,550 --> 01:03:13,670
rather than moving to A 
different situation， which we're

1023
01:03:14,030 --> 01:03:17,590
not familiar with， even if sort 
of the prospects of that 

1024
01:03:17,590 --> 01:03:23,030
situation are moving the changes
positive and there's somebody 

1025
01:03:23,030 --> 01:03:29,030
called Felix de brigad who did A
study to try and test that， and 

1026
01:03:29,030 --> 01:03:31,390
he asked two different 
questions， one is， you know， you

1027
01:03:31,390 --> 01:03:33,870
describe the experience machine 
as you just described IT， and 

1028
01:03:34,190 --> 01:03:37,070
you ask people， would you go 
into the experience machine or 

1029
01:03:37,070 --> 01:03:38,320
not？ 
And。 

1030
01:03:40,080 --> 01:03:44,080
Most of them say no and then you
ask them A different question， 

1031
01:03:44,080 --> 01:03:48,360
you say， as IT happens， you are 
now in the experience machine， 

1032
01:03:48,600 --> 01:03:51,720
and you know， like in the matrix
you have this， you can wake up 

1033
01:03:51,720 --> 01:03:54,360
and you have this moment。 
You can take the red or the Blue

1034
01:03:54,920 --> 01:03:58,120
pill， and if you take one of 
those pills， you'll go back into

1035
01:03:58,120 --> 01:04:01,440
the experience machine。 
And if you take the other pill， 

1036
01:04:02,080 --> 01:04:05,040
you'll wake up and you'll no 
longer be in the experience 

1037
01:04:05,040 --> 01:04:08,240
machine， right？ 
And so the life that you know 

1038
01:04:08,240 --> 01:04:11,600
that you thought was the Real 
World， but it's actually part of

1039
01:04:11,600 --> 01:04:14,120
the experience machine， you 
know， the people that you love 

1040
01:04:14,120 --> 01:04:18,920
and care for。 
The the job that you have all of

1041
01:04:18,920 --> 01:04:23,080
those things where you live。 
May completely change when you 

1042
01:04:23,080 --> 01:04:26,720
leave the experience machine， 
would you leave IT？ 

1043
01:04:26,720 --> 01:04:29,680
And that does significantly 
affect the number of people who 

1044
01:04:30,000 --> 01:04:33,040
reject the experience machine。 
Because now that you tell people

1045
01:04:33,040 --> 01:04:37,040
that the life they're having is 
the experience machine， more of 

1046
01:04:37,040 --> 01:04:40,400
them are willing to Stay， you 
know， whether it's more more 

1047
01:04:40,400 --> 01:04:42,760
than half is another question of
the study。 

1048
01:04:42,760 --> 01:04:46,320
Didn't have A really big sample，
but I've asked that question A 

1049
01:04:46,320 --> 01:04:49,560
couple of times。 
I asked IT in in Beijing， 

1050
01:04:49,560 --> 01:04:51,920
actually， in one of the talks 
that I gave， and there was 

1051
01:04:51,920 --> 01:04:54,440
definitely A significant 
increase in The Show of hands 

1052
01:04:54,880 --> 01:04:57,320
when when you asked the question
the second time。 

1053
01:04:58,470 --> 01:05:01,910
So， so I think the response is 
like， Why people refuse 

1054
01:05:01,910 --> 01:05:04,550
intuitive to go into the 
machine？ 

1055
01:05:04,550 --> 01:05:08,030
Not because you know， this 
Hinduism is wrong just because 

1056
01:05:08,030 --> 01:05:11,710
they have the tendency or bias 
toward settical codes。 

1057
01:05:12,110 --> 01:05:15,630
So I think this is one of the 
response to the experiment 

1058
01:05:15,630 --> 01:05:17,870
machine from the point of view 
of A hinder。 

1059
01:05:18,350 --> 01:05:23,030
Yes， so I think this segment 
come to the end， so we have 

1060
01:05:23,030 --> 01:05:25,760
discussed。 
The objection and respond about 

1061
01:05:25,760 --> 01:05:29,160
hindulistic utility。 
So in the Lex segment， we will 

1062
01:05:29,160 --> 01:05:30,960
continue our philosophical 
discussion。 

1063
01:05:39,040 --> 01:05:43,040
Kelvin pouna 喂， 你 們 這 一 段 廣 告， 好
煩 喔。 

1064
01:05:43,950 --> 01:05:50,880
Calvin 明 白 的 不 中 意。 
囉。 

1065
01:05:50,960 --> 01:05:57,160
Time 去 囉， 你 會 不 斷 地 見 到 我 的 by 
the way， 因 為 我 們 又 沒 有 budget， 又

1066
01:05:57,160 --> 01:06:04,880
沒 講 過 這 段 就 我 們 唯 一 的 廣 告 
Kelvin， 我 們 一 個 的 建 議 給 你 不 中 意 

1067
01:06:04,880 --> 01:06:06,760
的 買 了 我 們 這 段。 
時 間 去。 

1068
01:06:07,720 --> 01:06:10,480
得 不 得。 
我 不 OK。 

1069
01:06:21,550 --> 01:06:25,270
Welcome back to our show。 
So last section we discussed 

1070
01:06:25,350 --> 01:06:29,430
that the idea whether happiness 
or pressure is the only thing 

1071
01:06:29,430 --> 01:06:33,550
that intrinsically matter to US。
So in the lock segment we will 

1072
01:06:33,550 --> 01:06:37,590
move to another objection， 
another dimension or implication

1073
01:06:37,590 --> 01:06:41,270
of deteritarian， which concern 
human rights and animal right 

1074
01:06:41,670 --> 01:06:43,760
so？ 
With manki introduce the 

1075
01:06:43,760 --> 01:06:45,800
objection to US all。 
Right， let's start with human 

1076
01:06:45,800 --> 01:06:48,680
rights。 
For Example， all right now。 

1077
01:06:50,360 --> 01:06:53,640
There are A lot of place in the 
world fighting walls， right？ 

1078
01:06:53,640 --> 01:06:57,360
So， but let's say let's say we 
are writing A just war， all 

1079
01:06:57,360 --> 01:06:58,800
right？ 
Just， for Example， right？ 

1080
01:06:58,800 --> 01:07:04,080
And we capture some factors from
the other side， and normally we 

1081
01:07:04,080 --> 01:07:08,360
would say that they got their 
human rights as well， so that we

1082
01:07:08,640 --> 01:07:13,680
should torture that we shouldn't
torture the capture soldiers and

1083
01:07:14,200 --> 01:07:17,720
but from。 
An uitarian point of view， 

1084
01:07:17,720 --> 01:07:21,480
actually， there may be lots of 
reasons for doing that， because 

1085
01:07:21,480 --> 01:07:26,760
if you torture A soldier from 
the other side fighting and 

1086
01:07:26,760 --> 01:07:29,880
unjust war， then you could 
deter。 

1087
01:07:31,880 --> 01:07:35,280
Other soldiers from fighting the
unjust war， and IT could 

1088
01:07:35,280 --> 01:07:38,840
actually。 
IT may actually bring an end to 

1089
01:07:38,840 --> 01:07:41,320
the world， because when 
especially when they want our 

1090
01:07:41,320 --> 01:07:46,080
soldier but normally all right， 
normally we would say that in 

1091
01:07:46,080 --> 01:07:50,520
order to retain our humanity or 
in order to just avoid。 

1092
01:07:51,310 --> 01:07:55,270
Committing world crime we should
respect their rights as well。 

1093
01:07:55,270 --> 01:07:57,630
We should not。 
We should never torture。 

1094
01:07:59,680 --> 01:08:02,640
The soldier， even though they 
are actually fighting from the 

1095
01:08:03,120 --> 01:08:06,640
other side。 
So I think the objection is like

1096
01:08:06,640 --> 01:08:12,320
there are A lot of hypothetical 
or actual scenario in which you 

1097
01:08:12,320 --> 01:08:16,880
torture or violate the human 
rate， but by doing that you can 

1098
01:08:16,880 --> 01:08:21,000
maximize the happiness so you 
bring about the best consequence

1099
01:08:21,000 --> 01:08:25,800
like the Tory problems so you 
can push the fat man off the 

1100
01:08:25,800 --> 01:08:29,279
bridge and then。 
Make IT as A roblog to save the 

1101
01:08:29,279 --> 01:08:33,760
five people， all those cases 
pointing to the same innovation，

1102
01:08:34,640 --> 01:08:37,880
which is human being。 
We got more right and morat 

1103
01:08:37,880 --> 01:08:41,080
tissue respect our Mor right and
we shouldn't be treated as A 

1104
01:08:41,080 --> 01:08:43,760
means。 
We are A being with dignity。 

1105
01:08:44,359 --> 01:08:48,240
So what do you think about this？
Well， I think it's very good 

1106
01:08:48,240 --> 01:08:53,040
that we have conventions about 
protecting rights and preventing

1107
01:08:53,040 --> 01:08:56,439
war crimes， I think。 
It's been hard work to try to 

1108
01:08:56,439 --> 01:09:01,399
get conventions between nations 
which establish some rules of 

1109
01:09:01,399 --> 01:09:03,560
war and rule out certain things 
as crimes。 

1110
01:09:03,560 --> 01:09:06,800
and I think that is probably 
saved an immense amount of 

1111
01:09:06,800 --> 01:09:12,160
suffering。 
So I would not likely discard 

1112
01:09:12,160 --> 01:09:15,000
those， but I。 
Can。 

1113
01:09:15,000 --> 01:09:18,560
Certainly again， imagine at 
least hypothetical circumstances

1114
01:09:18,840 --> 01:09:23,640
in which you would do more good。
The problem is though， 

1115
01:09:24,439 --> 01:09:27,560
especially in A war situation， 
you've always got to think if if

1116
01:09:27,560 --> 01:09:31,160
you start torturing your 
captive， you know prisoners of 

1117
01:09:31,160 --> 01:09:34,399
war， then the other side is 
going to do that to to your 

1118
01:09:34,399 --> 01:09:37,560
soldiers as well。 
So I think you don't want to do 

1119
01:09:37,560 --> 01:09:39,840
something that will create A 
breakdown in those 

1120
01:09:39,840 --> 01:09:43,040
circumstances。 
For me， the more plausible 

1121
01:09:43,040 --> 01:09:46,200
hypothetical about torture is 
the the terrorist who has 

1122
01:09:46,200 --> 01:09:47,920
planted the nuclear bomb in A 
big city。 

1123
01:09:48,840 --> 01:09:52,359
And the only way you can get him
to tell you where the bomb is is

1124
01:09:52,359 --> 01:09:56,200
by torturing him， and if you 
don't torture him， then the bomb

1125
01:09:56,200 --> 01:09:59,960
will go off in A few hours and 
you can't evacuate the city such

1126
01:09:59,960 --> 01:10:03,400
A big city in that time。 
So perhaps millions of people 

1127
01:10:03,400 --> 01:10:08,560
will die， so I don't think these
human rights are absolute and in

1128
01:10:08,560 --> 01:10:11,800
those imaginary circumstances 
anyway。 

1129
01:10:13,520 --> 01:10:16,400
I would say we justified in 
violating them， but I would not 

1130
01:10:16,400 --> 01:10:22,240
really want to just regard the 
conventions of human rights as 

1131
01:10:22,240 --> 01:10:26,400
as something that's meaningless 
or that we can lightly push 

1132
01:10:26,400 --> 01:10:29,030
aside。 
Again， it's like the government 

1133
01:10:29,030 --> 01:10:32,070
of utilitarian， so we have to 
tell the people we have to 

1134
01:10:32,070 --> 01:10:34,670
respect the right。 
Yes， we should certainly tell 

1135
01:10:34,670 --> 01:10:37,070
the officers。 
I mean， look， we saw we saw this

1136
01:10:37,070 --> 01:10:42,150
very plainly in Iraq， right when
the US was revealed that the US 

1137
01:10:42,150 --> 01:10:46,310
were torturing prisoners in Abu 
grave， the the prison that they 

1138
01:10:46,310 --> 01:10:50,520
set up。 
And and you know， there was no 

1139
01:10:50,520 --> 01:10:53,840
real evidence that incredibly 
valuable information was coming 

1140
01:10:53,840 --> 01:10:56,280
out。 
I think when you get prisoners 

1141
01:10:56,280 --> 01:10:58,760
and you get prison guards who 
are in power over them， 

1142
01:10:59,480 --> 01:11:02,400
Sometimes those prison guards 
have A sadistic streak， or they 

1143
01:11:02,400 --> 01:11:07,360
like to just， you know， harm 
these people， they start to see 

1144
01:11:07,360 --> 01:11:11,000
them as subhuman， and I think 
that's， that's A terrible thing 

1145
01:11:11,080 --> 01:11:13,560
and IT will happen。 
IT definitely will happen if we 

1146
01:11:13,560 --> 01:11:16,680
don't have。 
Strict rules against torture， 

1147
01:11:17,160 --> 01:11:18,840
which？ 
You。 

1148
01:11:18,840 --> 01:11:23,160
Would only want to violate if 
you were absolutely sure that 

1149
01:11:23,640 --> 01:11:26,040
this was the only way to prevent
some real disaster。 

1150
01:11:26,400 --> 01:11:29,160
So what about the fat man 
version of the Tory problem？ 

1151
01:11:29,160 --> 01:11:32,920
Because the fat man will be A 
Better candidate because he's 

1152
01:11:32,920 --> 01:11:36,920
innocent compared with the 
terrorist or the soldier might 

1153
01:11:36,920 --> 01:11:40,280
be being Murphy。 
So will you also say that okay， 

1154
01:11:40,400 --> 01:11:42,600
we can。 
We should push him off the 

1155
01:11:42,600 --> 01:11:48,070
bridge to save the five people。 
This case I would， and it's 

1156
01:11:48,070 --> 01:11:50,990
interesting， I think that， you 
know， there's two versions of 

1157
01:11:51,030 --> 01:11:52,630
the trolley problem。 
There's the version where you're

1158
01:11:52,630 --> 01:11:56,670
standing by A switch and the 
only way to save the five is to 

1159
01:11:56,670 --> 01:11:59,630
throw the switch and the trolley
will Run Down the side branch 

1160
01:11:59,630 --> 01:12:02,510
line and kill one。 
And most people think that's。 

1161
01:12:02,510 --> 01:12:04,670
Okay， you should throw the 
Switcher， at least it's 

1162
01:12:04,670 --> 01:12:08,920
permissible to throw the switch。
And yet the the fat man case is 

1163
01:12:08,920 --> 01:12:12,440
just the same， except that 
instead of throwing A switch， 

1164
01:12:12,560 --> 01:12:15,600
you have to actually push him 
off this bridge and。 

1165
01:12:15,920 --> 01:12:19,080
And Josh green， who started our 
his career in philosophy but 

1166
01:12:19,080 --> 01:12:21,200
then became A。 
Professor of psychology。 

1167
01:12:22,920 --> 01:12:26,720
Has done research that suggests 
that we have this intuitive 

1168
01:12:26,720 --> 01:12:30,040
response to hands on violence 
and that's an evolved response 

1169
01:12:30,040 --> 01:12:34,480
because for， you know， hundreds 
of thousands of years we could 

1170
01:12:34,880 --> 01:12:37,080
harm other people by this hands 
on violence。 

1171
01:12:37,080 --> 01:12:42,400
And so we evolved this response 
to say no， that's bad， whereas 

1172
01:12:42,560 --> 01:12:46,280
we didn't have the possibility 
of killing people by throwing A 

1173
01:12:46,320 --> 01:12:50,240
switch that's very recent， and 
so that isn't an involved 

1174
01:12:50,240 --> 01:12:52,800
response。 
And I think that's A plausible 

1175
01:12:52,800 --> 01:12:55,680
explanation for。 
What's otherwise rather puzzling

1176
01:12:55,680 --> 01:12:58,360
Why people are prepared to say 
yes， it's permissible to throw 

1177
01:12:58,360 --> 01:13:02,720
the switch， but no， it's not 
permissible to push the the 

1178
01:13:02,720 --> 01:13:06,710
heavy person off the bridge。 
You try to explain your way？ 

1179
01:13:06,830 --> 01:13:09,230
The I explained， yeah， because 
I'm not。 

1180
01:13:10,070 --> 01:13:11,990
I'm not really moved by these 
intuitions。 

1181
01:13:11,990 --> 01:13:15,990
I think there are many people 
are too prone to accept the 

1182
01:13:16,270 --> 01:13:20,110
instinctive reactions and those 
instinctive reactions Maybe 

1183
01:13:20,110 --> 01:13:22,870
evolved responses like this one 
that are no longer。 

1184
01:13:22,870 --> 01:13:27,430
Really applicable to the present
world， or they may be result of 

1185
01:13:27,430 --> 01:13:30,870
culture or religion or early 
education。 

1186
01:13:30,870 --> 01:13:34,190
I don't think they're very 
reliable guide to what we really

1187
01:13:34,190 --> 01:13:35,670
ought to do。 
So if we。 

1188
01:13:35,790 --> 01:13:39,790
To the issue of animal effects。 
Do you think human being in 

1189
01:13:39,790 --> 01:13:43,910
general should be given any 
special more status or more 

1190
01:13:43,910 --> 01:13:47,070
right compared with the animal 
because they're just sent him 

1191
01:13:47,070 --> 01:13:50,790
being like US？ 
Well， let me put IT this way。 

1192
01:13:51,430 --> 01:13:55,590
If you think that all human 
beings irrespective of their 

1193
01:13:56,110 --> 01:14:01,720
capacities， have rights。 
That no non animals have。 

1194
01:14:01,720 --> 01:14:06,840
I think it's very difficult to 
justify that because after all， 

1195
01:14:06,840 --> 01:14:10,960
there are some non human animals
whose capacities to talk or to 

1196
01:14:10,960 --> 01:14:14,400
reason。 
To be self aware to be A moral 

1197
01:14:14,400 --> 01:14:18,560
agent。 
Superior of those of some human 

1198
01:14:18,560 --> 01:14:21,600
beings who infants， for Example，
none of US had those capacities 

1199
01:14:21,600 --> 01:14:23,920
when we were infants， Maybe 
people with profound 

1200
01:14:23,920 --> 01:14:27,800
intellectual disabilities， but 
the idea that all of these 

1201
01:14:27,800 --> 01:14:30,280
humans are somehow morally 
superior in status。 

1202
01:14:31,840 --> 01:14:35,560
To any non animal， whether it's 
A chimpanzee or an elephant or A

1203
01:14:35,560 --> 01:14:38,120
dog or A pig， or A chicken or A 
fish。 

1204
01:14:39,920 --> 01:14:42,640
I don't see， you know， that just
seems to me speciesism。 

1205
01:14:42,640 --> 01:14:45,960
IT just seems to be doing the 
same as what racious do when 

1206
01:14:45,960 --> 01:14:49,960
they say yes， all white people 
have A status that is superior 

1207
01:14:49,960 --> 01:14:53,430
to that of all black people。 
And， you know， people actually 

1208
01:14:53,430 --> 01:14:58,190
did think that in when， during 
the time of the slavery， they 

1209
01:14:58,190 --> 01:15:01,310
seem to think that so I think 
we're doing something similar 

1210
01:15:01,910 --> 01:15:05,920
between species。 
I want to follow up A question 

1211
01:15:05,920 --> 01:15:08,960
regarding like human rights and 
animal rights， because。 

1212
01:15:10,920 --> 01:15:16,160
Like I'm not sure is your point 
of view is seems like we can 

1213
01:15:16,160 --> 01:15:21,880
have human rights as fiction， A 
useful fiction， A uitarian rice 

1214
01:15:21,960 --> 01:15:26,320
for Ordinary People。 
But what about animal rights？ 

1215
01:15:26,320 --> 01:15:31,560
Because I think， like more 
theoretically sensitive people 

1216
01:15:31,840 --> 01:15:35,960
may sense A difference between 
advocating annual rights and 

1217
01:15:35,960 --> 01:15:39,680
just advocating animal welfare。 
So some people may say， like 

1218
01:15:39,880 --> 01:15:42,630
animals don't。 
I'm not sure what they will say 

1219
01:15:42,630 --> 01:15:45,430
about A human case。 
Maybe human rights is like， it's

1220
01:15:45,630 --> 01:15:48,830
not really there too， but there 
is no animal rice。 

1221
01:15:48,830 --> 01:15:53,190
What we care about is actually 
annual welfare so that when we 

1222
01:15:53,190 --> 01:15:58,430
can be sure that healing this 
chicken and eat IT will not 

1223
01:15:58,430 --> 01:16:03,750
cause like immense suffering or 
to the extent that we like the 

1224
01:16:03,750 --> 01:16:06,870
pleasure we have by eating them，
being outweighed by the 

1225
01:16:07,270 --> 01:16:11,430
suffering inflicted in that 
case， no right for the chicken， 

1226
01:16:11,430 --> 01:16:15,870
so we。 
Just cue IT in eighty eight just

1227
01:16:15,870 --> 01:16:17,830
like that。 
So if your response to human 

1228
01:16:17,830 --> 01:16:22,710
rights as A fiction is A good 
one， so isn't IT like we can say

1229
01:16:22,710 --> 01:16:24,150
the same thing about animal 
rice？ 

1230
01:16:24,150 --> 01:16:28,110
We actually A utilitarian should
advocate annual rise and not 

1231
01:16:28,110 --> 01:16:36,150
just animal welfare。 
So， I mean， I don't， as we've 

1232
01:16:36,150 --> 01:16:38,950
been saying， I think that rights
are A useful convention 

1233
01:16:38,990 --> 01:16:43,430
Sometimes， but I don't ground my
ethics on the idea of rights 

1234
01:16:43,430 --> 01:16:45,590
and。 
And when IT comes to animals 

1235
01:16:46,190 --> 01:16:49,550
again， I don't grant my view 
about the moral status of 

1236
01:16:49,550 --> 01:16:53,470
animals on this notion of rights
I granted on the principle of 

1237
01:16:53,470 --> 01:16:56,910
equal consideration of similar 
interests， which I think is。 

1238
01:16:57,640 --> 01:17:02,680
A utilitarian principle， you 
give the same way to pain to as 

1239
01:17:02,680 --> 01:17:06,120
in one person as you give to 
pain in another person and you 

1240
01:17:06,120 --> 01:17:10,200
give the same way to pain in A 
non human animal as you give to 

1241
01:17:10,200 --> 01:17:12,920
A similar kind of pain in A in A
human being。 

1242
01:17:14,720 --> 01:17:16,600
Should we have A sort of fiction
of animal rights？ 

1243
01:17:18,360 --> 01:17:20,120
I don't know。 
I mean， I think it's。 

1244
01:17:20,120 --> 01:17:23,320
It's probably less useful 
because it's just because it's 

1245
01:17:23,320 --> 01:17:25,800
it's harder to convince people， 
at least at this stage that 

1246
01:17:25,880 --> 01:17:30,080
there are rights。 
Maybe at some point society will

1247
01:17:30,080 --> 01:17:32,160
change and we will want to talk 
about rights。 

1248
01:17:33,880 --> 01:17:37,240
I did join something called the 
great A project which suggested 

1249
01:17:37,240 --> 01:17:41,920
that we should attribute rights 
to life， Liberty and protection 

1250
01:17:41,920 --> 01:17:45,480
from torture to great apes。 
That was an attempt to sort of 

1251
01:17:45,760 --> 01:17:49,600
make the argument again。 
Why should all humans have these

1252
01:17:49,600 --> 01:17:52,080
rights？ 
But even our closest relatives， 

1253
01:17:52,240 --> 01:17:55,640
the chimpanzees and gorillas and
orangutangs， should not have 

1254
01:17:55,640 --> 01:18:01,360
these rights very basic rights。 
So I'm not in principal opposed 

1255
01:18:01,360 --> 01:18:05,560
to the idea of declarations of 
rights for animals， but I Do 

1256
01:18:05,560 --> 01:18:08,440
think there's this sort of 
simpler principle that people 

1257
01:18:08,440 --> 01:18:12,640
can more easily understand。 
And incidentally， in the case 

1258
01:18:12,640 --> 01:18:16,440
you mentioned of the chicken。 
Talking about equal 

1259
01:18:16,440 --> 01:18:18,880
consideration of interest， I 
think it's easier to see。 

1260
01:18:19,630 --> 01:18:22,430
That if you consider the 
interests of A chicken at all， 

1261
01:18:22,430 --> 01:18:26,390
then particularly A factory farm
chicken who's lived its entire 

1262
01:18:26,390 --> 01:18:28,670
life in miserable， crowded 
conditions。 

1263
01:18:30,160 --> 01:18:33,320
Has A much greater interest in 
not living that life at all。 

1264
01:18:33,560 --> 01:18:36,280
Then you have in in the meal 
that you might get out of the 

1265
01:18:36,280 --> 01:18:41,030
chicken。 
But I want to make A follow up 

1266
01:18:41,030 --> 01:18:45,390
question because I think at some
point an animal rights。 

1267
01:18:46,720 --> 01:18:52,040
Are forced to compare human 
rights to animal rights， for 

1268
01:18:52,040 --> 01:18:56,640
Example， in some medical 
research we actually queue some 

1269
01:18:56,880 --> 01:18:59,040
Maybe trampancy or Maybe some 
grid。 

1270
01:18:59,320 --> 01:19:01,840
Probably not chimpanzees 
anymore， generally not used 

1271
01:19:01,840 --> 01:19:04,240
other。 
Kinds of memos。 

1272
01:19:04,560 --> 01:19:09,520
Certainly other memos。 
Yes， in order to well， do the 

1273
01:19:09,520 --> 01:19:12,160
mechanical research in order to 
save more human lives。 

1274
01:19:13,040 --> 01:19:18,400
And I have heard that you think 
at some point is acceptable， but

1275
01:19:19,200 --> 01:19:23,480
but that。 
'S really offense animal rights 

1276
01:19:23,480 --> 01:19:26,840
advocates because for them。 
Well， if you， if it's not okay， 

1277
01:19:26,840 --> 01:19:31,000
if it's not， if it's 
unacceptable for US to do this 

1278
01:19:31,000 --> 01:19:37,800
kind of research on human。 
Children， Why we should， Why we 

1279
01:19:37,800 --> 01:19:41,720
could ever。 
Do this thing to animals， do 

1280
01:19:41,720 --> 01:19:46,960
this thing to those mammals that
IT seems like for for them， or 

1281
01:19:46,960 --> 01:19:51,320
Maybe simply another philosopher
Tom Rick and， or especially as 

1282
01:19:52,520 --> 01:19:55,160
yeah。 
Yes， yes so Tom Regan was A was 

1283
01:19:55,160 --> 01:19:58,400
A friend of mine， but we 
certainly differed on on this 

1284
01:19:58,400 --> 01:20:00,280
point。 
I mean， we were agreed on the 

1285
01:20:00,280 --> 01:20:03,800
criticism of speciesism。 
We agreed that the moral status 

1286
01:20:03,800 --> 01:20:05,840
of animals is。 
Should be much higher。 

1287
01:20:06,720 --> 01:20:11,470
Than IT is in the world today。 
But， but he was an absolute 

1288
01:20:11,470 --> 01:20:13,350
abolitionist about animal 
experiments。 

1289
01:20:13,630 --> 01:20:17,590
He thought animal experiments 
not justified， even if。 

1290
01:20:19,200 --> 01:20:24,320
They， you know well to save 
lives， A large number of lives， 

1291
01:20:24,320 --> 01:20:26,240
and it's just A small number of 
experiments。 

1292
01:20:26,600 --> 01:20:28,960
He thought IT was wrong as A 
utilitarian。 

1293
01:20:28,960 --> 01:20:32,360
I can't say that。 
And I don't want to say that。 

1294
01:20:32,360 --> 01:20:35,000
I think you can justify some 
experiments。 

1295
01:20:35,440 --> 01:20:39,080
You try to minimize all the harm
that you inflict on animals。 

1296
01:20:39,400 --> 01:20:43,520
You use the smallest number that
you can to get valid scientific 

1297
01:20:43,520 --> 01:20:45,280
results。 
You make their lives as 

1298
01:20:45,280 --> 01:20:49,000
comfortable as possible outside 
the actual experiment， but if。 

1299
01:20:50,800 --> 01:20:54,160
This experiment is going to save
thousands or tens of thousands 

1300
01:20:54,600 --> 01:20:57,640
of lives on A small number of 
animals。 

1301
01:20:58,280 --> 01:21:01,640
Under those circumstances， I 
would have to say that that's。 

1302
01:21:01,960 --> 01:21:05,640
A justifiable thing to do？ 
But do you think in this 

1303
01:21:05,720 --> 01:21:08,440
circumstances IT really 
difficult to calculate the 

1304
01:21:08,440 --> 01:21:13,920
expected value because。 
We just like the person of 

1305
01:21:13,920 --> 01:21:17,680
mathematical truth， they may be 
useful in the future， but the 

1306
01:21:17,680 --> 01:21:20,680
experiment on long human animal 
you can。 

1307
01:21:20,680 --> 01:21:24,960
It's really difficult to judge 
to calculate expected value。 

1308
01:21:25,000 --> 01:21:28,600
So how can we decide whether we 
should do those things on the 

1309
01:21:28,600 --> 01:21:32,710
red or other memos now？ 
I want to add like A concern 

1310
01:21:32,710 --> 01:21:36,590
because some people may think 
that like the progress of 

1311
01:21:36,590 --> 01:21:41,110
science like of research is 
proceeded just in this way 

1312
01:21:41,110 --> 01:21:44,870
because， like in A lot of cases，
if we are considering like 

1313
01:21:44,870 --> 01:21:49,390
physics that we invest A lot of 
resources， money to do A lot of 

1314
01:21:49,390 --> 01:21:53,150
experiments， I Maybe most of 
them are useless at the end。 

1315
01:21:53,470 --> 01:21:55,150
But。 
Just like our papers， and。 

1316
01:21:56,200 --> 01:21:59,240
Of your article， but my be is 
very small portion of them。 

1317
01:21:59,240 --> 01:22:02,680
But we just。 
We only waste our time and the 

1318
01:22:02,680 --> 01:22:06,000
effort of getting them 
published， but we don't inflict 

1319
01:22:06,000 --> 01:22:08,400
suffering on。 
Just on ourselves。 

1320
01:22:10,120 --> 01:22:15,080
But yeah， but if， like physics 
is proceeded in this way and 

1321
01:22:15,080 --> 01:22:20,640
that's the only path to A real 
breakthrough， so Why not like A 

1322
01:22:20,640 --> 01:22:24,520
research on like medical 
experiment like like new 

1323
01:22:24,600 --> 01:22:27,960
medicines？ 
For some， like previously 

1324
01:22:27,960 --> 01:22:31,680
uncurable diseases can be 
proceeded in this way， so some 

1325
01:22:31,680 --> 01:22:35,840
people may argue in this case。 
It's the kind of like 

1326
01:22:36,040 --> 01:22:40,040
calculating and the expect 
value， but at least IT justifies

1327
01:22:40,040 --> 01:22:42,280
some of our experiments， no 
matter how。 

1328
01:22:44,200 --> 01:22:47,320
Inhumant IT is， IT seems to 
animals。 

1329
01:22:48,640 --> 01:22:51,720
IT doesn't justify them， no 
matter how inhumane they seem， 

1330
01:22:52,680 --> 01:22:57,000
unless somehow you just cannot 
do this work and make IT more 

1331
01:22:57,000 --> 01:23:00,280
Humane， right？ 
Because always the question is。 

1332
01:23:02,360 --> 01:23:04,960
Are you minimizing the suffering
of the animal as far as 

1333
01:23:04,960 --> 01:23:07,920
possible， compatible with 
getting useful results？ 

1334
01:23:08,280 --> 01:23:13,720
And generally speaking， I think 
that you know we don't make 

1335
01:23:13,800 --> 01:23:16,360
serious efforts to minimize 
research。 

1336
01:23:17,520 --> 01:23:20,240
In fact， you know， one of the 
papers that I gave one of the 

1337
01:23:20,240 --> 01:23:22,840
talks I gave in the two of of 
China。 

1338
01:23:23,680 --> 01:23:27,160
I talked about the fact that in 
China to obtain blood for 

1339
01:23:27,160 --> 01:23:30,920
medical research。 
There's A horrible procedure 

1340
01:23:30,920 --> 01:23:34,840
called eye in nucleation， which 
is done on mice， and basically 

1341
01:23:34,840 --> 01:23:38,600
you squeeze the eyeball out of 
The Mass that fully conscious 

1342
01:23:38,840 --> 01:23:43,080
mass and take blood from behind 
IT and you more or less drain 

1343
01:23:43,080 --> 01:23:44,720
The Mass of blood with The Mass 
then dies。 

1344
01:23:44,720 --> 01:23:48,080
But it's not an Easter ties to 
do this and this is not done 

1345
01:23:49,080 --> 01:23:51,940
elsewhere。 
I presume it's not done in Hong 

1346
01:23:51,940 --> 01:23:55,880
Kong， you know it's it's it's 
done in mainland China， as far 

1347
01:23:55,880 --> 01:23:59,240
as I know， only there。 
And there's just no effort， 

1348
01:23:59,240 --> 01:24:02,840
really， to minimize the 
suffering of the animal that 

1349
01:24:02,840 --> 01:24:05,840
goes on there。 
So so this is the real problem 

1350
01:24:05,840 --> 01:24:09,080
that that there isn't enough 
effort made to reduce the pain 

1351
01:24:09,080 --> 01:24:12,720
and suffering of animals because
they're just not candid 

1352
01:24:12,720 --> 01:24:14,240
sufficiently in terms of their 
status。 

1353
01:24:15,630 --> 01:24:19,350
So in， Speaking of reducing the 
suffering of the long human 

1354
01:24:19,350 --> 01:24:23,230
animals， I have one last 
question， I'm curious about your

1355
01:24:23,230 --> 01:24:25,430
view about suffering in the 
natural world？ 

1356
01:24:25,950 --> 01:24:30,110
So you mentioned in our show and
also Yesterday talk the 

1357
01:24:30,110 --> 01:24:32,790
suffering of the wildlife in the
lecture world。 

1358
01:24:33,030 --> 01:24:37,030
So I read the paper from job 
laman in New York times。 

1359
01:24:37,430 --> 01:24:41,630
He said that he as A utilitarian
support the idea that we should 

1360
01:24:41,630 --> 01:24:46,120
genetically。 
Modify the wildlife into 

1361
01:24:46,120 --> 01:24:51,680
something else which do not 
admit， so they turn the carnival

1362
01:24:52,240 --> 01:24:57,480
to the herbapho。 
So what actually I make A video 

1363
01:24:57,480 --> 01:25:01,480
in this on this YouTube channel 
years before to introduce the 

1364
01:25:01,480 --> 01:25:04,240
article and all the comment on 
the video。 

1365
01:25:04,240 --> 01:25:07,640
Fake Oh no talent are all crazy 
people。 

1366
01:25:08,480 --> 01:25:10,400
So what do you think？ 
Should we also be deals？ 

1367
01:25:10,520 --> 01:25:12,720
The lecture suffering of the 
wild life？ 

1368
01:25:13,280 --> 01:25:15,720
Well， I mean， there's some 
natural suffering of wildlife 

1369
01:25:15,720 --> 01:25:18,920
that we can reduce。 
For Example， we can have bird 

1370
01:25:18,920 --> 01:25:21,840
friendly glass so that birds 
don't crash into the Windows of 

1371
01:25:21,840 --> 01:25:23,400
our buildings and kill 
themselves。 

1372
01:25:23,400 --> 01:25:25,080
That's reducing wildlife 
suffering。 

1373
01:25:25,830 --> 01:25:30,150
But I don't think that we can at
present transform predators into

1374
01:25:30,150 --> 01:25:34,590
herbivores and and obviously the
many people who value 

1375
01:25:34,590 --> 01:25:38,430
biodiversity in the preservation
of A natural ecology， and I 

1376
01:25:38,430 --> 01:25:41,070
don't think the animal movement 
should get into A headlong 

1377
01:25:41,070 --> 01:25:44,710
conflict with them when there's 
so much human inflicted in 

1378
01:25:44,710 --> 01:25:47,630
suffering on animals， 
particularly in factory farming 

1379
01:25:47,950 --> 01:25:50,590
that really we should deal with 
first。 

1380
01:25:51,760 --> 01:25:55,840
The other point is that it's not
only predators and carnivores 

1381
01:25:55,840 --> 01:25:59,000
that cause suffering in nature， 
it's also the method of 

1382
01:25:59,000 --> 01:26:02,520
reproduction that has evolved in
many species of producing 

1383
01:26:02,680 --> 01:26:07,160
hundreds or even thousands of 
offspring each year， of which on

1384
01:26:07,160 --> 01:26:10,560
average only two are going to 
survive to maturity because 

1385
01:26:10,560 --> 01:26:14,440
otherwise the species would be 
multiplying hugely and the 

1386
01:26:14,440 --> 01:26:17,840
others die， and many of them 
Maybe die from starvation or。 

1387
01:26:19,480 --> 01:26:22,200
You know， they're tadpoles 
living in A pond that dries up 

1388
01:26:22,520 --> 01:26:25,280
in the summer when there's no 
rain and they just die， so 

1389
01:26:25,400 --> 01:26:30,280
nature is pretty cruel。 
And。 

1390
01:26:30,440 --> 01:26:32,720
Perhaps at some stage in the 
distant future， we'll find ways 

1391
01:26:32,720 --> 01:26:37,080
of making IT less painful for 
animals， but as you say， that's 

1392
01:26:37,080 --> 01:26:38,680
not A priority for me at 
present。 

1393
01:26:39,110 --> 01:26:42,190
But you theoretical believe that
the LTRO software is just 

1394
01:26:42,870 --> 01:26:47,190
carrying the same more weight 
with the artificial suffering of

1395
01:26:47,190 --> 01:26:48,710
the long human。 
Annual？ 

1396
01:26:48,710 --> 01:26:50,910
It's yes， it's。 
Suffering， I mean， again， 

1397
01:26:50,910 --> 01:26:53,350
there's no agent to blame for 
the suffering of nature。 

1398
01:26:53,350 --> 01:26:56,990
Evolution is not an agent and we
were not created by A divine 

1399
01:26:56,990 --> 01:27:00,430
creator who said all this 
suffering in motion， whereas 

1400
01:27:00,430 --> 01:27:03,350
there are agents to blame for 
the suffering of animals in 

1401
01:27:03,350 --> 01:27:07,160
factory farms。 
But the suffering itself is just

1402
01:27:07,160 --> 01:27:10,440
as bad， whether it's caused by A
human or whether it's caused by 

1403
01:27:10,880 --> 01:27:12,200
nature。 
It's the degree of suffering 

1404
01:27:12,200 --> 01:27:15,000
that matters， not because or how
IT was caused。 

1405
01:27:15,360 --> 01:27:18,600
Thank you。 
So I think we come into the end 

1406
01:27:18,600 --> 01:27:22,640
of today， so Thank you so much 
for sharing your view on 

1407
01:27:22,640 --> 01:27:27,280
different kind of issue。 
Like animal， we learn A lot and 

1408
01:27:27,280 --> 01:27:31,860
I think on those if you Maybe we
may agree or disagree， but I 

1409
01:27:31,860 --> 01:27:34,560
think your work we might。 
As one important thing is that 

1410
01:27:34,760 --> 01:27:38,390
philosophy。 
Abstract ideas， IT is really 

1411
01:27:38,390 --> 01:27:41,150
relevant to our world。 
To our live。 

1412
01:27:41,150 --> 01:27:45,310
We can gain from your insight to
rethink our more responsibility。

1413
01:27:45,310 --> 01:27:47,990
And how can we make the world A 
Better place to live？ 

1414
01:27:48,550 --> 01:27:53,070
So at the end， I know that Peter
singer has also got A broadcast 

1415
01:27:53,070 --> 01:27:55,670
right。 
So would you mind to introduce 

1416
01:27:55,670 --> 01:27:58,030
to our audience peter's 
broadcast？ 

1417
01:27:58,430 --> 01:28:02,110
Thank you very much。 
Yes， I Do A podcast called lives

1418
01:28:02,110 --> 01:28:04,270
well lived。 
I do it together with the。 

1419
01:28:05,200 --> 01:28:06,760
Woman， I mentioned who's been 
Co。 

1420
01:28:06,760 --> 01:28:11,440
A couple of my books kasha de 
lazari and you can find lives 

1421
01:28:11,440 --> 01:28:14,680
well lived wherever you get your
podcast， Spotify， Apple 

1422
01:28:14,680 --> 01:28:18,640
podcasts， just Google IT and 
you'll find IT。 

1423
01:28:18,640 --> 01:28:21,680
We've had A lot of really 
interesting guests that we've 

1424
01:28:21,680 --> 01:28:26,200
interviewed people like youval 
harari， Jane Goodall， Daniel 

1425
01:28:26,200 --> 01:28:30,080
carnaman。 
Neil de grasse Tyson， if you're 

1426
01:28:30,080 --> 01:28:33,240
interested in the universe and 
what he has to say about ethics，

1427
01:28:33,240 --> 01:28:35,520
we're talking about what IT is 
to live well and that's 

1428
01:28:35,520 --> 01:28:38,000
obviously relevant to the 
questions about hedonism that 

1429
01:28:38,240 --> 01:28:42,840
you've been asking me。 
And also practical， I think so 

1430
01:28:43,000 --> 01:28:44,120
it's。 
It's A combination of of 

1431
01:28:45,520 --> 01:28:49,560
philosophy， practical philosophy
and different views from 

1432
01:28:49,560 --> 01:28:52,160
different people relevant to how
we live well。 

1433
01:28:52,950 --> 01:28:58,430
Thank you so much， Peter， so 
it's A really honor today to 

1434
01:28:58,430 --> 01:29:02,750
explore your view on different 
issues， so I feel excellent 

1435
01:29:02,790 --> 01:29:04,430
today。 
So I have done。 

1436
01:29:04,990 --> 01:29:09,630
We have done our jobs， so let's 
Keep your eye on our show。 

1437
01:29:09,630 --> 01:29:13,190
We will be continuing doing 
philosophy so see you next time。

1438
01:29:13,390 --> 01:29:14,830
Thank you Peter。 
Thanks very much。 

1439
01:29:14,910 --> 01:29:18,280
Thank you man frankong。 
Thank you all。