1 00:00:09,960 --> 00:00:12,120 Welcome to the Behavioral Sun Podcast. 2 00:00:12,280 --> 00:00:15,480 My name is Samuel Salzer. I'm here with my Co host, Eileen 3 00:00:15,480 --> 00:00:16,680 Holsworth. Hey, Lynn. 4 00:00:16,960 --> 00:00:17,440 Hi. Hi. 5 00:00:17,720 --> 00:00:19,640 Hey. So I thought we could start 6 00:00:19,720 --> 00:00:23,520 before getting into the guests of the episode to talk about 7 00:00:23,800 --> 00:00:27,000 something that I feel like has been kind of emerging. 8 00:00:27,000 --> 00:00:28,840 I don't know when it started, but I started seeing this 9 00:00:28,840 --> 00:00:32,800 article basically declaring you know the death of user research, 10 00:00:32,800 --> 00:00:39,200 the death of the end of UX, the end of XYZ, end of the sign 11 00:00:39,200 --> 00:00:42,200 thinking. Did you notice these articles as 12 00:00:42,400 --> 00:00:44,360 well? Oh yeah, and and of course all 13 00:00:44,360 --> 00:00:47,840 of these declarations are coinciding with the massive 14 00:00:47,840 --> 00:00:50,400 layoffs in in these fields, right? 15 00:00:50,400 --> 00:00:55,560 With with UX being I think maybe the the largest largest. 16 00:00:56,120 --> 00:01:00,560 Sort of sub field of of layoffs in the past year, a couple of 17 00:01:00,560 --> 00:01:04,200 years and then of course with IDO recently laying off so much 18 00:01:04,200 --> 00:01:07,640 of its workforce. Yeah, that does seem to be at 19 00:01:07,640 --> 00:01:11,160 least the conclusion of the media that that these fields are 20 00:01:11,640 --> 00:01:15,480 diminished or or disappearing. Yeah. 21 00:01:15,480 --> 00:01:18,080 And also this kind of interesting some sort of like 22 00:01:18,080 --> 00:01:22,480 introspection as well within the fields because I think going 23 00:01:22,480 --> 00:01:25,240 back previously there's been this tendency before in in 24 00:01:25,240 --> 00:01:28,960 previous kind of financial downturns where you know, a 25 00:01:28,960 --> 00:01:32,040 company looks at kind of like OK, should we fire the sales 26 00:01:32,040 --> 00:01:37,280 people or should we fire kind of the the sign, UX sign people or 27 00:01:37,280 --> 00:01:42,040 so on and then they're like. Well, which one more directly 28 00:01:42,040 --> 00:01:45,080 contributes to revenue or the programmers or you know, 29 00:01:45,080 --> 00:01:47,520 Excellency. So it's kind of an 30 00:01:47,520 --> 00:01:50,000 understandable thing to maybe you think about like, OK, do we 31 00:01:50,000 --> 00:01:52,800 really use research if we have to cut something, like maybe 32 00:01:52,800 --> 00:01:55,560 that's what we should cut. If you're a company that seems 33 00:01:55,560 --> 00:01:58,560 to be in some ways a mental model that a company has had, 34 00:01:58,680 --> 00:02:01,200 companies has had for a while. But what is happening, you know, 35 00:02:01,200 --> 00:02:03,600 I feel like it's reserved. There's some some interesting 36 00:02:03,600 --> 00:02:05,800 questions and potential criticism as well, some 37 00:02:05,800 --> 00:02:08,080 limitations and so on. I feel like you you found 38 00:02:08,080 --> 00:02:11,440 something there as well that you share with me an article with 39 00:02:11,440 --> 00:02:14,840 some some criticism as well. Yeah I think there's there's 40 00:02:14,840 --> 00:02:18,040 plenty of of valid criticism and I'd love to get into that. 41 00:02:18,040 --> 00:02:21,920 But I but I also at the same time feel like there is a 42 00:02:21,920 --> 00:02:28,080 tendency in hard times to really sacrifice any sort of long term 43 00:02:29,000 --> 00:02:34,240 work towards improving products for for short term Really really 44 00:02:34,240 --> 00:02:39,000 kind of short sighted means right in in terms of you know, 45 00:02:39,000 --> 00:02:40,360 how do we stay afloat in the next. 46 00:02:40,880 --> 00:02:45,200 Every month or or or even a year but in the long term you like 47 00:02:45,200 --> 00:02:48,000 that's really a not very good way to go. 48 00:02:48,240 --> 00:02:51,920 But you know on the other hand as you pointed out there are 49 00:02:52,040 --> 00:02:56,680 plenty of problems with with any of these fields and you know 50 00:02:56,680 --> 00:03:00,120 it's it's you can talk about UX, you can talk about design 51 00:03:00,120 --> 00:03:05,040 thinking, you can talk about all the other sort of human oriented 52 00:03:05,040 --> 00:03:07,880 practices that kind of fall into the same category. 53 00:03:09,760 --> 00:03:11,760 But what? No. 54 00:03:13,120 --> 00:03:13,640 Yeah. No. 55 00:03:13,640 --> 00:03:17,400 I mean, behavioral science has, has been on the chopping block 56 00:03:17,400 --> 00:03:20,040 as well. I know it's not that easy for 57 00:03:20,040 --> 00:03:22,040 behavioral scientists to get jobs right now. 58 00:03:22,280 --> 00:03:25,040 And I think the large part of that is that people, so, so many 59 00:03:25,040 --> 00:03:27,280 people have different definitions of what behavioral 60 00:03:27,280 --> 00:03:32,560 science is and people disagree on on on what it is and maybe 61 00:03:32,560 --> 00:03:36,280 don't see the value as much. Yeah, unfortunately, yeah, for 62 00:03:36,400 --> 00:03:37,440 sure. So I think. 63 00:03:38,200 --> 00:03:43,560 I think the the criticism falls into a few different categories. 64 00:03:43,600 --> 00:03:47,280 And specifically, if you think about design thinking, one of 65 00:03:47,280 --> 00:03:51,080 the major areas of this is is this idea of empathy over 66 00:03:51,080 --> 00:03:54,280 expertise. So this idea that you as a 67 00:03:54,280 --> 00:03:57,880 designer can basically from going from nothing, with a 68 00:03:57,880 --> 00:04:01,720 beginner's mindset, can approach a problem and say, well, let me 69 00:04:01,800 --> 00:04:04,840 let me think. Really hard about this problem. 70 00:04:04,880 --> 00:04:07,800 Maybe talk to a couple people but mostly just just sort of 71 00:04:07,800 --> 00:04:12,240 brainstorm on post its and and you know like like let the let 72 00:04:12,240 --> 00:04:16,880 the creative genius inside of you figure out how to solve this 73 00:04:16,880 --> 00:04:20,839 problem and going into a problem without knowing anything about 74 00:04:20,839 --> 00:04:26,080 it and without really really talking to anyone any of any of 75 00:04:26,080 --> 00:04:29,600 the the people who are affected by that problem and not really 76 00:04:29,600 --> 00:04:32,040 looking into the research that's already been done. 77 00:04:32,400 --> 00:04:35,920 And with that, that seems like a something that is just bound to 78 00:04:35,920 --> 00:04:37,480 fail. Yeah. 79 00:04:37,480 --> 00:04:39,920 And I guess like in some ways what you illustrate is maybe the 80 00:04:40,640 --> 00:04:44,000 straw man. Maybe in some ways I guess you 81 00:04:44,000 --> 00:04:46,400 could like even if you based on what you said, like even if you 82 00:04:46,400 --> 00:04:50,760 then also had like let's say in this setting like traditionally 83 00:04:50,760 --> 00:04:55,920 like a focus group or any user interviews and maybe some type 84 00:04:55,920 --> 00:04:59,240 of like ethnography or like kind of following users along or 85 00:04:59,240 --> 00:05:02,200 doing something like that to kind of further collect data. 86 00:05:02,440 --> 00:05:05,480 I guess it could still. You can still argue that that 87 00:05:05,480 --> 00:05:09,080 data combined with that kind of idea of empathy could still 88 00:05:09,080 --> 00:05:13,880 leave you with a lot of missing pieces in terms of, yeah, 89 00:05:13,960 --> 00:05:18,280 explaining what causes the behaviour to happen. 90 00:05:18,920 --> 00:05:21,880 Yeah, I I think. I think some of these these 91 00:05:21,880 --> 00:05:24,760 methods can sometimes get you at what is really just a 92 00:05:24,760 --> 00:05:28,440 superficial understanding of users and their behaviour and 93 00:05:28,440 --> 00:05:30,600 their context and and really the complex. 94 00:05:31,000 --> 00:05:35,000 Systems that are at play, especially when you think about 95 00:05:35,000 --> 00:05:38,960 some of these entrenched norms and and cultural expectations 96 00:05:38,960 --> 00:05:41,920 that are have, you know, go back for many, many years. 97 00:05:42,520 --> 00:05:46,800 These are not things that you can understand in very quick and 98 00:05:46,800 --> 00:05:49,920 simple ways, which I think is the hope and maybe the false 99 00:05:49,920 --> 00:05:53,360 promise of some of these methods where you just kind of jump into 100 00:05:53,360 --> 00:05:56,400 a problem and understand it, try and understand everything about 101 00:05:56,400 --> 00:06:00,000 it, and then throw out some solutions and then you know 102 00:06:00,040 --> 00:06:04,120 you're out, right? Yeah, Also kind of like the lack 103 00:06:04,160 --> 00:06:06,840 of experimental tests was it as well? 104 00:06:07,720 --> 00:06:09,520 From a behavioral science perspective. 105 00:06:10,040 --> 00:06:17,280 A huge gap in in many of these these design design practices is 106 00:06:17,600 --> 00:06:21,720 you know, you might see some sort of prototyping and 107 00:06:22,080 --> 00:06:24,960 presenting a solution to users and say hey do you like it, 108 00:06:26,400 --> 00:06:29,960 would this be good? But you know, not so much 109 00:06:30,160 --> 00:06:33,640 rigorous experimental testing or trying to understand well like 110 00:06:33,640 --> 00:06:36,960 what are the what is the actual outcome if we compare version A 111 00:06:37,400 --> 00:06:40,560 against version B. But I think even beyond the the 112 00:06:40,560 --> 00:06:44,960 lack of experimenting are if we were to to present this idea of 113 00:06:44,960 --> 00:06:48,240 empathy to one of our past guests, Paul Bloom. 114 00:06:48,480 --> 00:06:51,240 He's actually written extensively on empathy. 115 00:06:51,240 --> 00:06:53,440 He has a a book called Against Empathy. 116 00:06:53,760 --> 00:06:57,360 And one of the the main themes of that book is the idea that, 117 00:06:57,880 --> 00:07:02,080 like, we're not, we can pretend to empathize with others, but 118 00:07:02,160 --> 00:07:04,840 actually as a species, we're not very good at it. 119 00:07:04,920 --> 00:07:07,960 Yeah, I guess it's the question then is like Ellen, do you think 120 00:07:08,320 --> 00:07:10,480 it is true or do you think that this is this is the end of the 121 00:07:10,480 --> 00:07:13,720 same thinking like this is the end of of this or how do you 122 00:07:13,720 --> 00:07:18,240 think about this kind of in the current state of things? 123 00:07:18,480 --> 00:07:21,760 No, I don't think, I don't think that's the case. 124 00:07:22,000 --> 00:07:25,000 I think that you know, sure you can say there are problems with 125 00:07:25,120 --> 00:07:28,600 with any particular approach, but I also think that often in 126 00:07:28,600 --> 00:07:33,520 the media you you can, they can take this more sensationalist, 127 00:07:33,520 --> 00:07:35,680 almost doomsday perspective, right? 128 00:07:36,080 --> 00:07:39,360 Where you know that you try and you try and take down design 129 00:07:39,360 --> 00:07:43,280 thinking with with one article and say, well, let's just 130 00:07:43,280 --> 00:07:47,080 discard you know that the entire, the entire field. 131 00:07:47,200 --> 00:07:49,760 That doesn't seem fair to me. You know, you see some of the 132 00:07:49,760 --> 00:07:52,160 same things having happening with behavioral science. 133 00:07:52,200 --> 00:07:56,880 But the answer is certainly not that the world is better 134 00:07:57,240 --> 00:07:59,640 without. You know, design thinking 135 00:07:59,640 --> 00:08:01,200 without behavioral science and so on. 136 00:08:01,200 --> 00:08:03,920 I think the solution, and I feel very strongly about this, the 137 00:08:03,920 --> 00:08:07,600 solution is to fix what isn't working right, not to get rid of 138 00:08:07,600 --> 00:08:11,120 it all. And maybe as as our our guest 139 00:08:11,120 --> 00:08:16,120 today really makes a case for maybe the solution, partially at 140 00:08:16,120 --> 00:08:19,080 least, is combining these approaches, right. 141 00:08:19,080 --> 00:08:21,120 So you don't have design thinking on its own, and you 142 00:08:21,120 --> 00:08:24,640 don't have behavioral science on its own, but you can actually 143 00:08:24,640 --> 00:08:27,320 merge these qualitative and quantitative methods. 144 00:08:27,840 --> 00:08:31,560 You know we can we can work on the the problems where there are 145 00:08:31,560 --> 00:08:36,120 problems and and try and try and fill those gaps, but really to 146 00:08:36,200 --> 00:08:38,280 to better design patient experiences. 147 00:08:38,280 --> 00:08:43,720 For example, Arthy makes a case for really combining, combining 148 00:08:43,720 --> 00:08:48,360 these methods and in particular marrying, design thinking and 149 00:08:48,360 --> 00:08:50,120 behavioral science together. Yeah. 150 00:08:50,360 --> 00:08:54,320 And for me, I think that's such an important take away here is 151 00:08:54,320 --> 00:08:57,520 that I I had a presentation, this was a few years ago. 152 00:08:57,520 --> 00:09:01,320 But basically trying to compare this like what is a someone 153 00:09:01,320 --> 00:09:04,200 coming for more from the behavioral science side of 154 00:09:04,200 --> 00:09:07,760 things versus someone from maybe more of the design thinking side 155 00:09:07,760 --> 00:09:09,360 of things. When they do use the research, 156 00:09:09,680 --> 00:09:11,640 what do they do similarly or differently? 157 00:09:12,000 --> 00:09:15,120 And I use this kind of metaphor of that like whenever we do use 158 00:09:15,120 --> 00:09:17,560 the research, we're kind of like stumbling in darkness. 159 00:09:17,560 --> 00:09:20,080 There's so much in the context that we're trying to kind of 160 00:09:20,080 --> 00:09:23,280 make sense of it. It's like it's kind of a big 161 00:09:23,280 --> 00:09:25,320 darkness initially and we're trying to like pick at things to 162 00:09:25,320 --> 00:09:28,320 understand like what's going on. And I can't use this like old. 163 00:09:29,000 --> 00:09:32,200 I think the allegory of sort or metaphor or story of this, like 164 00:09:32,200 --> 00:09:36,760 blind man walking along a trail and then you know they sum up on 165 00:09:36,760 --> 00:09:41,680 something And one person, one of the men says, oh, I I think it's 166 00:09:41,680 --> 00:09:45,040 it's a, it's a tree. And then the next person says, 167 00:09:45,360 --> 00:09:49,160 oh, I think it's a rope. And then the third person 168 00:09:49,160 --> 00:09:50,760 screams like, oh, I think it's a snake. 169 00:09:51,480 --> 00:09:53,720 But obviously what they fail to realize is that this is an 170 00:09:53,720 --> 00:09:55,280 elephant. It's they're all touching the 171 00:09:55,280 --> 00:09:57,680 same elephant, but one is touching the trunk and one is 172 00:09:57,680 --> 00:10:00,960 touching the tail and and so on. And I feel like that's kind of 173 00:10:00,960 --> 00:10:05,320 the the big risk we have if we're like too staunch, like too 174 00:10:05,320 --> 00:10:10,000 stubborn in in coming from like one of the lenses of sort of 175 00:10:10,000 --> 00:10:12,880 trying to understand the problem is that we're we used to become 176 00:10:12,880 --> 00:10:16,440 one of the blind Mens where we we think we've found something. 177 00:10:16,440 --> 00:10:20,720 We think it's like, oh, it's a, it's a snake, whatever. 178 00:10:21,240 --> 00:10:22,800 Yeah, we're we're deciding for that snake. 179 00:10:22,800 --> 00:10:28,000 But actually if we had combined our expertise with kind of in 180 00:10:28,000 --> 00:10:31,280 the case of this, you know, combining mixed method approach, 181 00:10:31,440 --> 00:10:33,640 understanding the behavioural, attitudinal, qualitative, 182 00:10:33,640 --> 00:10:39,200 quantitative types of insights, mixing that likelier we might 183 00:10:39,200 --> 00:10:43,920 actually understand what's going on, like what is the thing we're 184 00:10:43,920 --> 00:10:47,280 we're kind of approaching this darkness of, of trying to 185 00:10:47,280 --> 00:10:50,360 understand user behaviour. Beautiful. 186 00:10:51,680 --> 00:10:55,400 Yeah. So I don't know, this is maybe a 187 00:10:55,480 --> 00:10:57,560 primer in terms of thinking about this stuff. 188 00:10:57,560 --> 00:11:02,560 But obviously now we're going to jump in to talk with Arthy and 189 00:11:02,560 --> 00:11:04,720 so do you want to introduce Arthy? 190 00:11:04,960 --> 00:11:05,680 Yeah. Yeah. 191 00:11:05,680 --> 00:11:08,120 Let's introduce our our guest Aarti Rao. 192 00:11:08,120 --> 00:11:12,120 So Arthy leads Behavioral Insights at City Block Health as 193 00:11:12,120 --> 00:11:14,520 their Vice President of Behavioral Insights and 194 00:11:14,520 --> 00:11:17,760 Strategic Engagement Innovation. And before that, she founded the 195 00:11:17,760 --> 00:11:20,160 Design and Innovation lab at CVS Health. 196 00:11:20,480 --> 00:11:23,920 So as with all of our guests, very impressive. 197 00:11:24,520 --> 00:11:27,280 And she's had quite a bit of success at City Block merging 198 00:11:27,280 --> 00:11:30,400 human centered practices like design thinking and behavioral 199 00:11:30,400 --> 00:11:33,480 science. Yeah, so very much on the topic 200 00:11:33,480 --> 00:11:35,520 of what we have kind of started talking about here. 201 00:11:35,720 --> 00:11:38,760 And in episode we dive deeper into this. 202 00:11:38,760 --> 00:11:41,520 We talk about how to reach hard reach communities. 203 00:11:41,880 --> 00:11:45,760 We kind of explore a very interesting product, deep dive 204 00:11:46,280 --> 00:11:49,560 and yeah, much, much interesting stuff. 205 00:11:49,840 --> 00:11:54,040 But we also want to hear from you as well, this discussion 206 00:11:54,040 --> 00:11:57,760 about the end of various disciplines or how to make sense 207 00:11:57,760 --> 00:11:59,400 of the landscape that we're currently in. 208 00:12:00,120 --> 00:12:01,640 It's super interesting to hear what you think. 209 00:12:01,640 --> 00:12:05,400 So you can always reach us and tell us what you think via 210 00:12:05,400 --> 00:12:09,800 podcast at haveaweekly.com. So feel free to reach out there. 211 00:12:10,200 --> 00:12:12,240 But now it's time to start episode. 212 00:12:12,360 --> 00:12:27,840 So cutie music welcome to another episode of 213 00:12:27,880 --> 00:12:31,040 Behavioral Design podcast. And I'm really excited to say 214 00:12:31,480 --> 00:12:34,720 welcome Aarthi Rao. Thanks for having me. 215 00:12:34,800 --> 00:12:38,360 I'm excited to talk to you both. Yeah, really great to have you 216 00:12:38,360 --> 00:12:39,320 here. Yeah. 217 00:12:39,840 --> 00:12:44,880 And we do this thing where we kind of jump in feet first. 218 00:12:45,200 --> 00:12:49,280 And given that we're really interested in understanding the 219 00:12:49,280 --> 00:12:52,040 applied side of behavioral science. 220 00:12:52,160 --> 00:12:57,480 And the first question is usually what is your most 221 00:12:58,040 --> 00:13:03,760 favorite or hated applied or behavioral design in the wild 222 00:13:04,120 --> 00:13:07,040 example that you can think of what what sticks out in your 223 00:13:07,040 --> 00:13:10,560 mind as kind of a good, a really bad showcase of putting 224 00:13:10,560 --> 00:13:14,240 behavioral science to practice. The fun, fun question, maybe 225 00:13:14,240 --> 00:13:16,640 I'll start with the good over the bad. 226 00:13:18,320 --> 00:13:22,560 I think for me my favorite examples probably reflecting 227 00:13:22,560 --> 00:13:25,520 kind of to your point, my applied sort of business 228 00:13:25,520 --> 00:13:30,080 background are things that are addressing the behavior, but 229 00:13:30,080 --> 00:13:34,560 also just delightful sort of like customer member patient 230 00:13:34,560 --> 00:13:38,920 experiences that give. Value to the actual user that 231 00:13:38,920 --> 00:13:43,200 something's targeting and that are also sort of ROI positive 232 00:13:43,200 --> 00:13:46,440 and scalable and will last at scale for a while. 233 00:13:46,760 --> 00:13:49,400 And so with that in mind, a couple of the things that I 234 00:13:49,400 --> 00:13:53,960 think are particularly good examples that have given me a 235 00:13:53,960 --> 00:13:58,320 lot of energy. One is from the financial space. 236 00:13:58,480 --> 00:14:01,840 I think what's been really cool to watch over the past, I think 237 00:14:01,840 --> 00:14:05,160 it's been a couple of years now that this has been happening at 238 00:14:05,160 --> 00:14:10,000 scale are these sort of robo index funds that make it really 239 00:14:10,000 --> 00:14:14,040 easy for people who are not familiar with investing, not 240 00:14:14,040 --> 00:14:17,720 familiar with stocks to put a little bit of their money into 241 00:14:17,720 --> 00:14:20,880 the stock market and actually see and experience some growth 242 00:14:21,120 --> 00:14:22,960 and kind of make that whole process. 243 00:14:23,360 --> 00:14:25,480 Less intimidating? Less frightening. 244 00:14:25,480 --> 00:14:26,920 Are you talking about Robin Hood? 245 00:14:28,160 --> 00:14:35,120 Not not Robin Hood. I'd say the lower stakes, 246 00:14:35,120 --> 00:14:39,800 friendlier ones, but things that just feel like I think like Ally 247 00:14:39,800 --> 00:14:43,480 Bank has a great a great interface for this, But you 248 00:14:43,480 --> 00:14:46,640 know, they help you understand your own risk preferences like. 249 00:14:46,960 --> 00:14:50,720 Introduce you to what are the basics of doing this and then 250 00:14:50,720 --> 00:14:53,760 just make it very simple to put in a little bit of money and 251 00:14:53,760 --> 00:14:58,640 watch it sort of move over time. But in in very stable sort of 252 00:14:58,640 --> 00:15:01,800 like index funds and things that don't have a terrible amount of 253 00:15:01,800 --> 00:15:04,000 risk attached to them. And I think it's great because 254 00:15:04,000 --> 00:15:06,480 it's sort of taking friction out of that experience. 255 00:15:06,760 --> 00:15:08,200 It's very scalable. It's last. 256 00:15:08,320 --> 00:15:11,120 It's the lasting kind of application. 257 00:15:11,360 --> 00:15:15,320 And then it lets people have sort of a entry point into that 258 00:15:15,320 --> 00:15:18,200 experience. They might go deeper and get 259 00:15:18,400 --> 00:15:21,800 into it and sort of learn more about it, or they might just get 260 00:15:21,800 --> 00:15:24,280 an extra couple percentage points of interest over what 261 00:15:24,280 --> 00:15:26,360 they might otherwise have in a savings account. 262 00:15:26,360 --> 00:15:29,520 But driving a lot, I think of good impact for folks. 263 00:15:29,840 --> 00:15:33,040 Then if I'm allowed, can I can I add something to that? 264 00:15:33,080 --> 00:15:34,240 Because I think it's a great example. 265 00:15:34,720 --> 00:15:38,680 Yeah, quickly I just add, so it's one thing that I think is 266 00:15:38,680 --> 00:15:40,720 my favorite part of that. It's also that as this kind of 267 00:15:40,720 --> 00:15:44,960 like friction of once you put money into that account for 268 00:15:44,960 --> 00:15:49,040 example, it's much harder to kind of move it back usually to 269 00:15:49,040 --> 00:15:52,640 kind of your spending account. So it's it's much also better 270 00:15:52,640 --> 00:15:56,200 protected from you kind of like should I buy a new you know 271 00:15:57,200 --> 00:15:59,600 express machine or something. So I. 272 00:15:59,600 --> 00:16:01,600 Like a camouflaged saving account? 273 00:16:02,040 --> 00:16:03,360 Yeah. So it's a great example. 274 00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:04,480 Totally. OK. 275 00:16:04,480 --> 00:16:07,720 I have I have a question that that pops up as you share this, 276 00:16:07,840 --> 00:16:11,280 as you share this example. I'm wondering if having that 277 00:16:11,280 --> 00:16:15,680 access to or having that experience with in a low stakes 278 00:16:15,680 --> 00:16:19,360 environment and seeing your money grow could actually have 279 00:16:19,360 --> 00:16:24,520 an effect on your risk appetite or your risk tolerance and 280 00:16:24,520 --> 00:16:27,880 actually encourage you to to go further and further as you see 281 00:16:27,880 --> 00:16:30,080 like oh look, I'm magically making money. 282 00:16:30,280 --> 00:16:33,360 Maybe I should put everything over here because my money in my 283 00:16:33,360 --> 00:16:34,920 actual. Savings account isn't 284 00:16:34,920 --> 00:16:38,320 accumulating much interest. Do you, have you seen anything 285 00:16:38,320 --> 00:16:40,800 like that or do you feel like that might happen? 286 00:16:41,200 --> 00:16:44,000 I guess, I guess it's a potential risk. 287 00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:47,840 I haven't, I mean this is very anecdotal because I don't work 288 00:16:47,840 --> 00:16:51,280 in the financial services thing from the focus. 289 00:16:51,280 --> 00:16:54,400 I know who've kind of gone through those experiences. 290 00:16:54,400 --> 00:16:57,520 I haven't sort of seen like a sudden change. 291 00:16:58,160 --> 00:17:02,000 But I think that's also why it's nice that they have those sort 292 00:17:02,000 --> 00:17:04,920 of assessments that help you understand your own risk 293 00:17:04,920 --> 00:17:08,200 preferences because there are sort of like quizzes or 294 00:17:08,200 --> 00:17:11,680 structured questions that help you think about what's important 295 00:17:11,680 --> 00:17:15,079 to you, like what's the time frame that's most important to 296 00:17:15,079 --> 00:17:17,440 you. So typically I think it won't 297 00:17:17,440 --> 00:17:21,760 let you change those preferences without taking that kind of like 298 00:17:21,760 --> 00:17:24,040 assessment quiz experience again. 299 00:17:25,480 --> 00:17:28,760 Which would hopefully like jostle you out of any like short 300 00:17:28,760 --> 00:17:32,200 term lately less well thought out decision making. 301 00:17:32,400 --> 00:17:35,400 But yeah I could I could see that being a risk for sure. 302 00:17:35,720 --> 00:17:40,040 We can always refer to as well we had Dan Egan who is I think 303 00:17:40,040 --> 00:17:43,080 VP of Behavioral Science or Behavioral Finance that 304 00:17:43,080 --> 00:17:46,800 betterment on the podcast before and so we can maybe forward that 305 00:17:46,800 --> 00:17:49,480 question to him as well if you want, but that's a great 306 00:17:49,480 --> 00:17:52,240 example. Did you have another good or bad 307 00:17:52,240 --> 00:17:55,840 example that you want to share? And I'm allowed to share too. 308 00:17:55,840 --> 00:18:00,640 I have one other good example, this one a little bit more drawn 309 00:18:00,640 --> 00:18:04,760 from my personal experience from CVS when we were rolling out the 310 00:18:04,760 --> 00:18:08,560 COVID vaccine sort of much earlier on in the pandemic's 311 00:18:08,560 --> 00:18:12,920 trajectory when it was still limited eligibility Phase one 312 00:18:12,920 --> 00:18:16,120 sort of just targeting. At risk folks and seniors. 313 00:18:16,360 --> 00:18:19,480 But we were just doing a lot of thinking about like what is the 314 00:18:19,480 --> 00:18:22,760 messaging, what is the approach, sort of the program design 315 00:18:22,760 --> 00:18:25,960 intervention strategy that's going to drive the most uptake 316 00:18:26,160 --> 00:18:29,600 for the right populations given the limited supply and sort of 317 00:18:29,600 --> 00:18:32,880 all the different eligibility constraints that were in place 318 00:18:32,880 --> 00:18:35,520 at the time. And one of the cool things that 319 00:18:35,600 --> 00:18:40,360 we realized is that one way to help seniors access the vaccine 320 00:18:40,360 --> 00:18:43,040 was to actually target outreach and messaging. 321 00:18:43,480 --> 00:18:46,920 To younger folks. So people who are likely to be 322 00:18:47,120 --> 00:18:51,360 grandkids neighbors to seniors have sort of seniors in their 323 00:18:51,360 --> 00:18:55,000 social network who are actually very very far from being 324 00:18:55,000 --> 00:18:57,120 eligible for the vaccine in the near term. 325 00:18:57,480 --> 00:19:00,640 But really just a call to action to help help your neighbors, 326 00:19:00,640 --> 00:19:03,920 help your grandparents like access the right websites, 327 00:19:04,040 --> 00:19:07,720 register and then potentially like help them get to the 328 00:19:07,720 --> 00:19:10,880 appointment if needed and. It was cool because I think it 329 00:19:10,880 --> 00:19:13,320 really brought together understanding like what's that, 330 00:19:13,560 --> 00:19:16,840 what's the experience of the senior, what are their pain 331 00:19:16,840 --> 00:19:19,520 points. But then how do you like design 332 00:19:19,520 --> 00:19:23,000 a solution in a very, very constrained time frame that's 333 00:19:23,000 --> 00:19:25,720 going to actually be effective for some of their digital 334 00:19:25,720 --> 00:19:29,120 barriers, knowing we didn't have a ton of time to design like 335 00:19:29,360 --> 00:19:32,240 other ways to register and access and schedule. 336 00:19:32,440 --> 00:19:35,000 So that's just like another cool example I think of like bringing 337 00:19:35,040 --> 00:19:37,560 together. They're sort of like delightful 338 00:19:37,560 --> 00:19:41,440 customer value driving experiences with sort of core 339 00:19:41,480 --> 00:19:44,360 underlying understanding of what's going to cause friction 340 00:19:44,360 --> 00:19:45,840 and a behavior. Yeah. 341 00:19:45,840 --> 00:19:48,520 And I like the combo of, you know, as you say it reduces 342 00:19:48,520 --> 00:19:53,240 friction and and helps overcome those barriers, but also 343 00:19:53,240 --> 00:19:56,040 increases probably motivation because you suddenly have some 344 00:19:56,040 --> 00:20:00,840 form of like social accountability or social support 345 00:20:01,080 --> 00:20:05,040 in in doing that as well. So it's like a yeah, a really 346 00:20:05,040 --> 00:20:09,560 nice intervention, I think. I bet it even increased 347 00:20:09,640 --> 00:20:12,720 motivation among the younger folks who may have been on the 348 00:20:12,720 --> 00:20:14,160 fence. But after going through that 349 00:20:14,160 --> 00:20:17,040 process of, like waiting on the phone for hours and hours and 350 00:20:17,040 --> 00:20:20,840 seeing like, you know, how in demand the vaccine was in order 351 00:20:20,840 --> 00:20:23,960 to get one for grandma and grandpa, now they're they're 352 00:20:23,960 --> 00:20:27,160 more, they're more likely to get it themselves, too. 353 00:20:27,160 --> 00:20:29,160 I love that. Yeah, that That's a really cool 354 00:20:29,160 --> 00:20:31,920 sort of. Example of an indirect 355 00:20:32,360 --> 00:20:35,360 application. I feel like like that sort of 356 00:20:35,360 --> 00:20:39,920 creativity is sometimes lacking in the world, but I love that. 357 00:20:39,920 --> 00:20:43,080 I love that you did that. Awesome, cool. 358 00:20:43,080 --> 00:20:48,560 So I I think we should go ahead and get to our our sort of key 359 00:20:48,560 --> 00:20:52,160 question of our podcast. A lot of what we talk about is 360 00:20:52,680 --> 00:20:56,080 sort of hinged on the the product and you know we're very 361 00:20:56,080 --> 00:20:58,560 much about, you know, how do we use behavioral science to 362 00:20:58,560 --> 00:21:01,240 improve. Products in general and and for 363 00:21:01,240 --> 00:21:05,760 you we've chosen a a specific one and and we thought that your 364 00:21:05,760 --> 00:21:09,600 background and experience might might speak to having some some 365 00:21:09,600 --> 00:21:13,480 more creative solutions to to think about how you might design 366 00:21:13,480 --> 00:21:17,880 this thing how you would improve it using both you know methods 367 00:21:17,880 --> 00:21:20,600 and also findings from behavioral science and and of 368 00:21:20,600 --> 00:21:25,240 course your your product is the pill bottle so we'd love to hear 369 00:21:25,320 --> 00:21:29,120 how you might use use these behavioral design methods to 370 00:21:29,120 --> 00:21:30,760 actually. Like, you know, if you could 371 00:21:30,800 --> 00:21:36,040 overhaul the pill bottle to make it, you know, more more likely 372 00:21:36,040 --> 00:21:39,040 for people to take their medication, for example, that's 373 00:21:39,040 --> 00:21:41,320 probably the one behavior that we're looking for with a pill 374 00:21:41,320 --> 00:21:43,200 bottle. What would you do? 375 00:21:43,200 --> 00:21:45,200 How would you think through this this whole thing? 376 00:21:45,480 --> 00:21:48,160 Yeah, I can add like that it's important to. 377 00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:51,000 I think if you're not in this conditional health realm, you 378 00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:55,520 might understand how low medical adherence or like medicine is. 379 00:21:56,000 --> 00:22:00,600 And even for situations where people really, really need to 380 00:22:00,600 --> 00:22:03,720 take their pills, they still don't always do it. 381 00:22:04,160 --> 00:22:07,280 And so, So it's very important also like context and 382 00:22:07,280 --> 00:22:09,800 intervention, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. 383 00:22:09,840 --> 00:22:12,560 I'm probably butchering the stat, but I think it's something 384 00:22:12,560 --> 00:22:17,880 like 50% of people will not take a medication as prescribed and 385 00:22:17,880 --> 00:22:20,760 those are folks who have at least started medication. 386 00:22:20,880 --> 00:22:24,120 There's a huge drop off between what's actually prescribed and 387 00:22:24,120 --> 00:22:26,880 what actually what actually gets picked up for the first time. 388 00:22:27,520 --> 00:22:30,760 It's a hugely important problem, very exciting question because 389 00:22:30,760 --> 00:22:34,520 I've spent way too many years of my life narrowly thinking about 390 00:22:34,520 --> 00:22:37,240 medication adherence. Good. 391 00:22:40,160 --> 00:22:44,400 I have a lot of ideas on how to strengthen the pill bottle. 392 00:22:44,720 --> 00:22:47,520 I will. I will caveat this in like a 393 00:22:47,520 --> 00:22:50,440 non. This is a no constraint answer, 394 00:22:50,440 --> 00:22:53,680 so assuming that there's ways to do all of this cost effectively 395 00:22:53,680 --> 00:22:57,600 and scalably would. Love to really think about how 396 00:22:57,600 --> 00:23:01,520 do you introduce design choices in that model that get at sort 397 00:23:01,520 --> 00:23:04,840 of the many different fall off points when it comes to 398 00:23:04,840 --> 00:23:07,280 medication adherence. So there's things like the 399 00:23:07,280 --> 00:23:11,400 forgetfulness, reminders is kind of the most obvious chunk that 400 00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:14,720 people often think about, but there's a lot of other drivers. 401 00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:19,600 So there's side effects and sort of saliency drug interactions 402 00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:22,920 just like making it. Available to you like How do you 403 00:23:22,920 --> 00:23:25,320 get supply in your hands at the right times? 404 00:23:25,320 --> 00:23:30,320 Really easily making things discreet and also finding ways 405 00:23:30,320 --> 00:23:33,880 to bundle medications, given that a lot of folks managing 406 00:23:33,880 --> 00:23:37,200 chronic disease have to take multiple medications together. 407 00:23:39,080 --> 00:23:43,160 And so I have ideas on all of those things I think remind. 408 00:23:44,440 --> 00:23:46,960 Let's do it. Again, I'm probably gonna end up 409 00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:49,120 with a $50 pill bottle at the end of. 410 00:23:50,880 --> 00:23:52,160 We have all the money in the world. 411 00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:54,920 It doesn't matter. We don't have to worry about it. 412 00:23:56,600 --> 00:23:59,280 But I think so. Reminders is probably the most 413 00:23:59,280 --> 00:24:01,960 straightforward one, if there's some way. 414 00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:06,520 In the bottle designed to actually visually cue if you 415 00:24:06,520 --> 00:24:10,280 haven't taken a medication that or it's like pending. 416 00:24:10,280 --> 00:24:13,800 So it could be a color or sort of some other thing that changes 417 00:24:13,800 --> 00:24:18,480 on the bottle that gives you sort of that nudge, that 418 00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:22,000 reminder that you actually need to take the medication. 419 00:24:22,360 --> 00:24:26,320 Can I can I think about in terms of that how do you think about 420 00:24:26,320 --> 00:24:30,560 overcoming this kind of reminder to feel not a nagging reminder 421 00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:34,280 but kind of a. Because obviously it can be 422 00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:38,240 perceived in as a nagging way of like, oh, it's kind of like I'm 423 00:24:38,240 --> 00:24:42,240 being reminded to do something but you might forget why they're 424 00:24:42,240 --> 00:24:44,200 supposed to do it and actually the reminders are helpful 425 00:24:44,200 --> 00:24:46,840 reminders, like actually they're to potentially save their life. 426 00:24:46,840 --> 00:24:50,000 Do you have any thoughts on how how that can be incorporated 427 00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:51,320 someone? Definitely. 428 00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:55,400 I think one important thing with the reminders is to actually 429 00:24:55,400 --> 00:24:58,760 make it subtle. So more of something on the like 430 00:24:58,760 --> 00:25:03,760 a on the bottle that. So like, if you glance at it, if 431 00:25:03,760 --> 00:25:06,200 since let's say you have it in a prominent place, you sort of 432 00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:10,040 know like, oh, it's red. Like, I'm going to make that 433 00:25:10,040 --> 00:25:12,840 mental leap that I've forgotten to open it today. 434 00:25:13,280 --> 00:25:17,240 But one thing that's actually not super effective is texting 435 00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:20,280 someone like 3 * a day to tell them to take something. 436 00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:23,160 Or like making it really in your face. 437 00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:26,280 That actually might be helpful for the first few days that 438 00:25:26,280 --> 00:25:30,040 someone's starting a medication just to, like, reset a routine. 439 00:25:30,520 --> 00:25:33,920 But you're quickly going to tune it out like very overbearing. 440 00:25:34,160 --> 00:25:37,480 And it's like who is this random, whether it's your 441 00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:41,560 pharmacy, your doctor, your Bell ball company, Like who is this 442 00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:44,360 random entity trying to harass you on a daily basis? 443 00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:50,760 I do think sort of the the next bucket of impact on adherence is 444 00:25:50,760 --> 00:25:54,800 that building, understanding, making information salient and 445 00:25:54,800 --> 00:25:58,560 relevant to you. So to your point, like a lot of 446 00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:01,400 folks actually don't know why they're on a medication. 447 00:26:01,840 --> 00:26:04,040 Their doctor might have told them at one point, their 448 00:26:04,040 --> 00:26:05,920 pharmacist might have told them at one point. 449 00:26:06,920 --> 00:26:09,680 But if you think about the experience of a 15 minute 450 00:26:09,680 --> 00:26:13,000 doctor's appointment, like they tend to be pretty rash, like 451 00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:16,400 information isn't sticking. If you're on multiple 452 00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:20,440 medications, it can easily get confusing, like they look 453 00:26:20,440 --> 00:26:22,720 identical. So what is this one doing versus 454 00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:26,720 that one? And so ways to make information 455 00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:30,400 about your medication salient in the right moment, I think will 456 00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:34,400 actually drive a significant amount of impact on behavior. 457 00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:39,600 So if you can explain if you can scan AQR code on that model, or 458 00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:43,400 you know you could, you can make it very tech forward like launch 459 00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:48,080 an AR experience when you scan that model, but provide like 2 460 00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:50,720 minutes worth of content that just reminds people. 461 00:26:51,280 --> 00:26:53,040 This is what this medication is like. 462 00:26:53,240 --> 00:26:56,000 This is what it's for. This is what it does in your 463 00:26:56,000 --> 00:26:58,080 body. And like, hey, these couple of 464 00:26:58,080 --> 00:27:02,240 side effects are expected. Here's some like OTC approaches 465 00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:04,560 or other approaches to address those side effects. 466 00:27:05,360 --> 00:27:07,720 That's going to be really helpful because you want that 467 00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:10,200 information. In the moment that someone's 468 00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:13,800 thinking about their medication, they're not going to go back to 469 00:27:13,800 --> 00:27:16,720 a pamphlet they were handed. They're not going to call their 470 00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:18,160 pharmacist. They're not going to call their 471 00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:21,560 doctor and ask those questions. But if you can make it really 472 00:27:21,560 --> 00:27:24,240 easy in the context of interacting with that bottle to 473 00:27:24,240 --> 00:27:28,720 see like a quick spiel about those questions, I do think like 474 00:27:28,720 --> 00:27:32,560 that would be that would be much more impactful than a reminder 475 00:27:32,560 --> 00:27:35,360 in isolation, Yeah. And it's kind of the idea of I 476 00:27:35,360 --> 00:27:38,560 guess nudging folks will call that like boosting in a way as 477 00:27:38,560 --> 00:27:42,840 well where you're kind of not only trying to, you know be 478 00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:46,640 fraternalistic in in, you know, you should do this thing, but 479 00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:49,800 actually supporting people and better understanding why they 480 00:27:49,800 --> 00:27:53,640 should do it and have that information and turning that 481 00:27:53,640 --> 00:27:56,840 into knowledge and. And yeah. 482 00:27:57,720 --> 00:28:01,160 Definitely, and ideally that video or audio script or 483 00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:04,760 whatever it is pops up in your language that you're most 484 00:28:04,760 --> 00:28:07,160 comfortable with, because I think that's the other fall off. 485 00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:10,600 Point is, you're often having English mediated appointments, 486 00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:12,680 but that may or may not be your first. 487 00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:14,640 Language. It made that be the language 488 00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:17,960 that it's easiest for you to consume health information in. 489 00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:21,880 I'm imagining now because we said, like, no budget for this, 490 00:28:22,360 --> 00:28:25,760 this kind of Blade Runner esque avatar that just comes up, you 491 00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:28,200 know, from your bottle and speaks to you. 492 00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:31,240 But yeah, Ali, what were you going to say? 493 00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:34,000 Yeah. Well I I think it it also should 494 00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:37,080 be the the information has to be specific to you. 495 00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:40,160 So if you think about the same drug is prescribed for all 496 00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:44,520 different kinds of conditions sometimes it could, it could be 497 00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:47,680 very confusing to hear the general spiel of especially if 498 00:28:47,680 --> 00:28:52,440 you're kind of a a sort of off use indication that that could 499 00:28:52,440 --> 00:28:55,200 really throw you off. But since we have an unlimited 500 00:28:55,200 --> 00:28:58,120 budget that would be no problem to personalize it that 501 00:28:58,120 --> 00:29:00,120 specifically. OK, so we have. 502 00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:04,680 Reminders. We have personalized information 503 00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:08,080 that's very convenient about the medication. 504 00:29:08,600 --> 00:29:11,040 What were What were our other categories? 505 00:29:11,360 --> 00:29:16,080 I think my next big one would be making it easy to help people 506 00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:19,560 avoid drug interactions. So that's another thing. 507 00:29:19,880 --> 00:29:21,760 Your doctor probably warned you about it. 508 00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:23,600 Your pharmacist probably warned you about it. 509 00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:27,440 If you're taking a medication over years, like hard to keep 510 00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:31,280 that information top of mind. So, you know, I think they're, 511 00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:38,040 again, expensive ways to to help make that experience easier. 512 00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:41,720 If you could actually add some sort of functionality to a 513 00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:45,680 bottle where if you were to put it next to a bottle of an OTC 514 00:29:45,680 --> 00:29:47,920 medication or another prescription medication, where 515 00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:51,560 there would be an interaction and that could sort of give off 516 00:29:51,800 --> 00:29:55,120 some kind of cue. In this case, it might actually 517 00:29:55,120 --> 00:29:59,000 be appropriate to send a text message ping or an app nudge to 518 00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:02,720 a phone because it is a more sort of like urgent imminent 519 00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:05,280 risk that you want to make folks aware of. 520 00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:08,640 And it's a one time not repetitive risk that could help 521 00:30:08,640 --> 00:30:11,120 people just manage those interactions better because 522 00:30:11,120 --> 00:30:15,000 again, it's not something that's top of mind to you and then in 523 00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:18,520 an everyday way. So if there, I think there are 524 00:30:18,520 --> 00:30:21,760 sort of tech based solutions to that that could just make it 525 00:30:21,760 --> 00:30:24,080 easier for folks who are managing a lot of different 526 00:30:24,080 --> 00:30:27,760 medications to to avoid those interactions stay safe. 527 00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:33,040 And again, it could at least be a call or reminder for them to 528 00:30:33,040 --> 00:30:35,280 at least check in with their pharmacist or check in with 529 00:30:35,280 --> 00:30:39,840 their provider to see if they if they can make those choices. 530 00:30:40,320 --> 00:30:43,480 Would you extend this also to certain foods that have 531 00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:45,520 interactions? Like if someone is about to eat 532 00:30:45,520 --> 00:30:49,480 a grapefruit but we know that they like that interacts with 533 00:30:49,480 --> 00:30:51,120 their blood. I forget which one it is. 534 00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:54,360 I think it's blood thinners like are not as yeah, great, like 535 00:30:54,360 --> 00:30:56,920 someone's about to eat a grapefruit and your like phone 536 00:30:56,920 --> 00:30:59,800 starts like jangling. Stop. 537 00:30:59,960 --> 00:31:03,560 Put the spoon down. Yeah, that's like the next 538 00:31:03,560 --> 00:31:07,440 level. Start with the meds. 539 00:31:07,480 --> 00:31:10,640 But yeah, if you can pull in those food interactions, then 540 00:31:11,240 --> 00:31:13,200 you get pulled in. Awesome. 541 00:31:13,880 --> 00:31:17,360 And then I think there's sort of the, again just to make it easy, 542 00:31:17,360 --> 00:31:22,200 so having access to enough supply at the right time and not 543 00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:25,160 having to think about it has a pretty big impact on adherence. 544 00:31:25,160 --> 00:31:29,720 So the bottles like smart or connected device in some way and 545 00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:33,200 can just initiate a refill without you having to do 546 00:31:33,200 --> 00:31:36,240 anything and then that refill quantity shows up. 547 00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:39,800 You know, on your doorstep, in your mailbox at the right time, 548 00:31:40,360 --> 00:31:42,760 in the right moment. That's sort of another way to 549 00:31:42,760 --> 00:31:46,040 keep people consistently on their therapy without having to 550 00:31:46,040 --> 00:31:48,920 worry about going to the pharmacy or getting online and 551 00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:50,840 initiating a refill in some time. 552 00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:53,760 Sarah Click shopping. Exactly, yeah. 553 00:31:55,360 --> 00:31:58,400 I mean there's there's a risk there, like that you end up with 554 00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:01,720 a stockpile of someone's non adherent and just take 555 00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:06,600 humiliating meds. But this bottle can tell if if 556 00:32:06,600 --> 00:32:10,320 that's what do you want to say? I promise these are my last two 557 00:32:10,320 --> 00:32:12,880 features of this. Now I think it's wrapped like 558 00:32:12,880 --> 00:32:18,600 $100 pillow bottle and it's actually like physical packaging 559 00:32:18,600 --> 00:32:22,560 and form factor of of what what the container is itself. 560 00:32:23,040 --> 00:32:26,760 I think making it discreet could help a lot of people actually 561 00:32:26,760 --> 00:32:29,440 carry their medication around with them with a little bit less 562 00:32:29,440 --> 00:32:33,800 stigma, so you can sound, proof it or even just kind of disguise 563 00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:36,360 it in some way. So it's not obviously a pill 564 00:32:36,360 --> 00:32:38,760 bottle. That's another way to just make 565 00:32:38,760 --> 00:32:41,960 it a little bit more likely that someone feels comfortable 566 00:32:42,120 --> 00:32:44,600 slipping into their purse, slipping into their briefcase so 567 00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:47,800 they have it accessible to them. If they're going to be out of 568 00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:50,880 their home or not in their normal place, particularly for 569 00:32:50,920 --> 00:32:55,440 conditions that might carry a little bit of stigma, I think 570 00:32:55,680 --> 00:32:59,000 anything we can do to just make it easy for people to manage 571 00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:02,160 those things discreetly will will help them. 572 00:33:02,480 --> 00:33:05,320 And then the last again is thinking about people with many 573 00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:07,920 medications. So we know multi dose packaging 574 00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:11,640 and blister packaging have really positive impact on 575 00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:16,040 people's ability to take. Sort of many meds over time at 576 00:33:16,040 --> 00:33:20,280 the right, in the right way. So thinking about what is the 577 00:33:20,280 --> 00:33:25,240 particular sort of like dosage guidance for this patient for 578 00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:28,480 this set of medications, Is there a way to bundle the 579 00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:31,480 packaging making a little bit easier for them to manage and 580 00:33:31,480 --> 00:33:33,320 take? It could also be pretty 581 00:33:33,320 --> 00:33:35,320 impactful, yeah. And I thought it was 582 00:33:35,320 --> 00:33:36,680 interesting. I don't know if there's a 583 00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:41,040 conclusive evidence on blister packaging here, but I remember 584 00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:47,440 seeing this correlation between introducing that and a reduction 585 00:33:47,440 --> 00:33:53,120 in harm from overdosing or risk of overdosing, and also related 586 00:33:53,120 --> 00:33:56,640 to children overdosing from parental medication, for 587 00:33:56,640 --> 00:33:58,960 example. So I don't know if that's maybe 588 00:33:58,960 --> 00:34:02,120 another another component of blister benefits. 589 00:34:02,920 --> 00:34:05,200 That's a great point. Just add a little friction of 590 00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:07,960 popping the actual medication out slows people down. 591 00:34:08,280 --> 00:34:13,600 Yeah. Well this is a really amazing in 592 00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:17,719 $100 you know is relatively cheap comparing to having a full 593 00:34:17,719 --> 00:34:19,400 life and and being happy and so on. 594 00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:24,120 So we we maybe could add some more things even further to this 595 00:34:24,440 --> 00:34:28,320 and two things that I had in mind to hear what you think 596 00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:32,159 about is one is financial incentives. 597 00:34:32,840 --> 00:34:38,080 Have you any opinion on the idea of adding kind of some form of. 598 00:34:39,400 --> 00:34:42,040 I know there's been some experiments where either people 599 00:34:42,040 --> 00:34:47,199 are kind of getting some maybe a dollar if they take their their 600 00:34:47,199 --> 00:34:51,840 medication or they're kind of like doing from a reverse 601 00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:55,960 version where they kind of have a certain amount of money that's 602 00:34:55,960 --> 00:34:59,480 kind of in their balance. And if they fail to take the 603 00:34:59,480 --> 00:35:03,240 medication, something is kind of withdrawn from that and and it's 604 00:35:03,240 --> 00:35:07,720 also financial symptoms. Yeah, I'm I'm very colored by 605 00:35:07,720 --> 00:35:11,120 the US landscape for this because it is actually. 606 00:35:11,760 --> 00:35:15,000 From a regulatory perspective, like very challenging to test 607 00:35:15,120 --> 00:35:18,360 incentives for medication adherence in any way. 608 00:35:18,480 --> 00:35:23,440 So this is all conjecture, but I suspect that financial 609 00:35:23,440 --> 00:35:28,880 incentives would be best for short term acute medications or 610 00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:31,720 things where you're only on them, you know, like complete a 611 00:35:31,720 --> 00:35:35,960 course of antibiotics for example, or taking them for a 612 00:35:35,960 --> 00:35:38,640 time to find time sort of period. 613 00:35:39,720 --> 00:35:44,000 I think they would probably stop working for most chronic disease 614 00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:46,800 medications over time. Like you might see a boost in 615 00:35:46,800 --> 00:35:49,440 the beginning and then it'll level out. 616 00:35:50,120 --> 00:35:53,720 Particularly for things that are have a lot of side effects or 617 00:35:53,720 --> 00:35:57,520 introduce any kind of discomfort or inconvenience in some other 618 00:35:57,520 --> 00:36:03,160 way, you probably need a pretty high incentive to to overcome 619 00:36:03,160 --> 00:36:05,440 that and have it stick over time. 620 00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:10,440 OK. So what would you suggest for 621 00:36:10,480 --> 00:36:14,680 those kinds of drugs and that people are actually in are 622 00:36:14,680 --> 00:36:17,520 incentivized not to take because of the side effects? 623 00:36:17,520 --> 00:36:21,800 How might you encourage them? I think going back to the 624 00:36:21,800 --> 00:36:26,680 earlier part of our conversation like that, making information 625 00:36:26,840 --> 00:36:29,600 salient and relevant to the person and connecting it to 626 00:36:29,600 --> 00:36:35,240 their to their own goals and sense of well-being, I. 627 00:36:35,840 --> 00:36:40,160 I think we'll build more intrinsic motivation that will 628 00:36:40,160 --> 00:36:44,160 last over time than a financial incentive. 629 00:36:44,680 --> 00:36:47,400 But again, unless you go really large, I'm sure if you were to 630 00:36:47,400 --> 00:36:52,120 pay like hundreds and hundreds of dollars for someone to adhere 631 00:36:52,120 --> 00:36:56,520 to something, you could probably get a pretty a pretty good lift. 632 00:36:57,960 --> 00:37:01,720 But then when those payments stop, like what happens, I 633 00:37:01,720 --> 00:37:03,640 suspect there'd be a pretty big fall off. 634 00:37:04,200 --> 00:37:08,440 I also have the feeling that even on in our world of infinite 635 00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:11,360 funding, that like like doesn't seem like the right approach, 636 00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:13,720 right? Yeah, exactly. 637 00:37:14,400 --> 00:37:17,320 And I I think there's a lot to be said for positive 638 00:37:17,400 --> 00:37:22,320 reinforcement as well, not not from my CVS days, but from work 639 00:37:22,560 --> 00:37:26,840 I did in the global health space in Tanzania. 640 00:37:26,840 --> 00:37:31,360 One of the things we realized about HIV both treatment 641 00:37:31,360 --> 00:37:33,440 adherence and appointment attendance. 642 00:37:34,160 --> 00:37:38,520 Is that people in the health, in their healthcare experiences 643 00:37:38,920 --> 00:37:42,680 mostly get bad information, right, That you're told like 644 00:37:42,920 --> 00:37:47,400 you're doing really badly on the like these three like tests or 645 00:37:47,400 --> 00:37:49,120 hey, you're not taking this appropriately. 646 00:37:49,120 --> 00:37:51,000 You're like, hey, you missed this last thing. 647 00:37:51,360 --> 00:37:53,440 There's lots of negative reinforcement. 648 00:37:53,600 --> 00:37:56,360 There's actually a very few moments in someone's healthcare 649 00:37:56,360 --> 00:38:00,640 experience where someone that you respect and trust or your 650 00:38:00,640 --> 00:38:03,320 provider says. You did a great job. 651 00:38:03,320 --> 00:38:05,240 Like you're actually getting better. 652 00:38:05,240 --> 00:38:08,000 You're making the right choices. Like I know this is hard. 653 00:38:08,760 --> 00:38:11,840 So building in some of that positive reinforcement in 654 00:38:11,840 --> 00:38:16,080 addition to making sure someone understands sort of how how that 655 00:38:16,080 --> 00:38:20,560 medication fits into their life, I think there's there's value 656 00:38:20,560 --> 00:38:24,600 there and sort of a little bit more like a social incentive. 657 00:38:24,600 --> 00:38:30,040 But I again. So financial incentives will 658 00:38:30,040 --> 00:38:33,480 work if they're large and lasting, but I think some of 659 00:38:33,480 --> 00:38:37,240 these other tools could be useful assuming that that's not 660 00:38:38,120 --> 00:38:39,920 going to be available indefinitely. 661 00:38:40,360 --> 00:38:43,040 Yeah, well that's interesting because I think also with with 662 00:38:43,080 --> 00:38:45,840 kind of this payment has become a little bit of in vogue in 663 00:38:45,840 --> 00:38:48,760 behavioral science to do like micro payments as a way of like 664 00:38:49,280 --> 00:38:53,160 getting people to go to the gym. I think in the big Katie Milkman 665 00:38:53,160 --> 00:38:57,200 ET al program that was kind of the at their twenty different 666 00:38:57,200 --> 00:38:59,320 variations that was the most effective. 667 00:38:59,720 --> 00:39:01,840 You could go like a dollar to go to the gym or something. 668 00:39:02,040 --> 00:39:03,640 At least for returning to the gym. 669 00:39:03,640 --> 00:39:04,960 Yeah. Yeah exactly. 670 00:39:05,400 --> 00:39:09,600 But I I, I fully I'm I'm on your side here in terms of I also 671 00:39:09,600 --> 00:39:14,560 think there's yeah especially for as a chronic chronic 672 00:39:15,160 --> 00:39:19,440 medication it's tricky and to belong the social. 673 00:39:19,640 --> 00:39:24,600 Another thing I've seen is providers trying to have some 674 00:39:24,600 --> 00:39:29,000 form of solution that the patient kind of takes a photo of 675 00:39:29,000 --> 00:39:33,440 them taking the pill and send that's that's like I've taken it 676 00:39:33,440 --> 00:39:37,040 kind of thing and yeah what's your. 677 00:39:37,880 --> 00:39:40,760 It's interesting. I mean, it reminds me a little 678 00:39:40,760 --> 00:39:45,760 bit of like dots, like TB therapy in the global health 679 00:39:46,080 --> 00:39:49,200 world of you have to like, directly observe the treatment 680 00:39:49,200 --> 00:39:51,320 happening. It's an interesting idea. 681 00:39:51,320 --> 00:39:54,920 I don't know like how scalable or practical it is. 682 00:39:55,320 --> 00:39:59,880 Again, I'm very colored by my U.S. healthcare variance. 683 00:39:59,880 --> 00:40:04,400 But just knowing how much providers have going on, like 684 00:40:04,400 --> 00:40:08,680 will they, will they view those images, will they respond in a 685 00:40:08,680 --> 00:40:12,920 way that going to actually Dr. motivation and reinforcement for 686 00:40:12,920 --> 00:40:15,600 that person. I think there's a lot of 687 00:40:15,760 --> 00:40:18,200 potential. I don't think I'd respond very 688 00:40:18,200 --> 00:40:19,280 well. Yeah. 689 00:40:19,320 --> 00:40:22,400 And for the context, I'm taking this as an example from I think 690 00:40:22,400 --> 00:40:25,680 it's San Francisco based startup that's doing this and I think 691 00:40:25,680 --> 00:40:29,040 they're doing some form of I guess more machine learning 692 00:40:29,040 --> 00:40:33,160 algorithm to to to kind of check the photos and so on. 693 00:40:33,720 --> 00:40:36,840 But yeah, it's always, I'm very happy with what you said because 694 00:40:36,840 --> 00:40:42,120 I I I had a very similar kind of thought of like here are some 695 00:40:42,120 --> 00:40:46,680 people that has taken an idea. From the sepia for science and 696 00:40:46,680 --> 00:40:49,840 then, you know, run a little bit too far with it in maybe a 697 00:40:49,840 --> 00:40:52,680 different context than it was kind of initially thought of. 698 00:40:53,920 --> 00:40:59,760 And I think this is it goes back to my I love things that work. 699 00:40:59,960 --> 00:41:04,760 They're delightful to the user, but also scalable and work in 700 00:41:04,760 --> 00:41:06,920 the context in which it'll be delivered. 701 00:41:07,800 --> 00:41:10,920 Because that discussion about medications and adherence is 702 00:41:10,920 --> 00:41:14,160 going to be. One minor subtopic with their 703 00:41:14,160 --> 00:41:16,960 provider and they're going to have so many other things to 704 00:41:16,960 --> 00:41:20,280 triage with the providers. So like, is it practical that 705 00:41:20,280 --> 00:41:23,000 you would put all of the attention on that one behavior 706 00:41:23,000 --> 00:41:26,640 when you're also going to be talking about lab tests and sort 707 00:41:26,640 --> 00:41:29,480 of other lifestyle modifications and things you need to be doing 708 00:41:29,480 --> 00:41:31,520 to be successful managing a condition? 709 00:41:31,600 --> 00:41:35,560 And sort of does that sort of patient experience make sense 710 00:41:35,560 --> 00:41:37,640 overall? Yeah. 711 00:41:37,840 --> 00:41:40,960 And by the way, I was going to move us to the next. 712 00:41:41,480 --> 00:41:44,400 Topic but first of all this is really fantastic. 713 00:41:44,400 --> 00:41:48,520 This is really great to kind of explore this product and who 714 00:41:48,520 --> 00:41:52,040 knows what it will cost but it seems like a good a good product 715 00:41:52,040 --> 00:41:55,960 that we have kind of you know with you kind of explored. 716 00:41:56,280 --> 00:41:59,080 So thank you for for sharing your thoughts on the pill bottle 717 00:41:59,520 --> 00:42:03,040 and what you can reference now. I think would be interesting to 718 00:42:03,040 --> 00:42:07,400 explore in terms of designing for for equity and. 719 00:42:08,760 --> 00:42:11,080 I know with your New York it's it's been something that's been 720 00:42:11,080 --> 00:42:14,880 very important for you and I think it's interesting to to 721 00:42:14,880 --> 00:42:18,720 kind of you know beyond your thinking about we're talking 722 00:42:18,720 --> 00:42:23,600 about pill bottles but but in in brothers terms of designing for 723 00:42:24,280 --> 00:42:29,880 a let's say under resourced community that obviously 724 00:42:30,480 --> 00:42:33,760 requires good healthcare and good healthcare experiences. 725 00:42:35,400 --> 00:42:40,840 What's your thoughts on how to? Kind of use payroll science to 726 00:42:41,120 --> 00:42:44,680 build trust in that context or or kind of support that 727 00:42:44,680 --> 00:42:51,960 happening in in good ways. Yeah, I think for me what's been 728 00:42:51,960 --> 00:42:55,880 most important in thinking about these sort of vulnerable 729 00:42:55,880 --> 00:43:00,520 communities or hard to reach communities is definitely 730 00:43:00,520 --> 00:43:03,920 pulling in some of the principles from like human 731 00:43:03,920 --> 00:43:06,280 Centered Design and Design Thinking and. 732 00:43:07,280 --> 00:43:12,280 Investing in that sort of Co creation and understanding 733 00:43:12,480 --> 00:43:17,800 upfront versus jumping straight into a solution design or 734 00:43:17,800 --> 00:43:21,000 program design, assuming that there's sufficient evidence that 735 00:43:21,000 --> 00:43:23,440 already exists that you can just sort of build from. 736 00:43:24,840 --> 00:43:29,160 I think building that shared understanding and doing a little 737 00:43:29,160 --> 00:43:34,920 bit of prototyping and that Co creation together is incredibly 738 00:43:34,920 --> 00:43:37,960 important. Before launching straight into 739 00:43:38,040 --> 00:43:41,120 the behavioral design of something, or even then turning 740 00:43:41,120 --> 00:43:47,680 that into an experiment, I haven't found a way to design 741 00:43:47,680 --> 00:43:51,320 solutions that are useful and compelling for folks without, 742 00:43:51,640 --> 00:43:56,640 without that stuff, and without doing that first and so often it 743 00:43:56,640 --> 00:44:00,160 leads you to. It's just like a different 744 00:44:00,360 --> 00:44:03,600 route, right? It might mean steering away from 745 00:44:03,600 --> 00:44:05,640 a digital approach. If that's not going to make 746 00:44:05,640 --> 00:44:10,040 sense, it might mean focusing more on Alien to your point, 747 00:44:10,040 --> 00:44:12,920 like what are the drivers of trust and how do you address 748 00:44:12,920 --> 00:44:15,720 some of those drivers of trust in your solution design. 749 00:44:16,000 --> 00:44:18,800 So I think that investing in that stuff is really important 750 00:44:19,000 --> 00:44:21,880 for for any kind of audience that's. 751 00:44:22,600 --> 00:44:25,160 I would say vulnerable, but really just different than you 752 00:44:25,480 --> 00:44:29,200 like for any any user that's not you exactly. 753 00:44:29,680 --> 00:44:32,440 Or different from the research traditionally like in terms of 754 00:44:32,880 --> 00:44:34,240 you know. Exactly we. 755 00:44:34,240 --> 00:44:37,400 Have a history of certain groups being kind of left out of 756 00:44:37,480 --> 00:44:39,840 certain research and and and so on as well. 757 00:44:40,440 --> 00:44:43,760 So we might just have limited, limited view on understanding 758 00:44:43,760 --> 00:44:45,000 because of that as well. Yeah. 759 00:44:46,400 --> 00:44:51,240 Trying to design a large scale health intervention. 760 00:44:51,800 --> 00:44:57,240 And then you're kind of trying to target under resourced 761 00:44:57,240 --> 00:45:01,000 communities, for example, and understanding that in order for 762 00:45:01,000 --> 00:45:04,120 this to work, you don't only have to reach maybe kind of the 763 00:45:04,200 --> 00:45:07,920 end person, but also maybe the community leaders within the 764 00:45:07,920 --> 00:45:11,600 community. You might have to align with 765 00:45:11,600 --> 00:45:16,400 their kind of doctors, with the maybe some some like bigger 766 00:45:16,400 --> 00:45:19,320 system challenges. Maybe that is too big of a 767 00:45:19,320 --> 00:45:22,960 question to get into now. But but I just found that as a 768 00:45:23,040 --> 00:45:26,080 challenging part sometimes of like how to get all of those 769 00:45:26,080 --> 00:45:30,720 different stakeholders from the individual to the doctor to the 770 00:45:30,720 --> 00:45:35,120 maybe community leader to whoever else is involved to to 771 00:45:35,120 --> 00:45:39,560 get this medication to be the whole health system, the 772 00:45:39,600 --> 00:45:42,560 government in the world. Yeah. 773 00:45:42,640 --> 00:45:46,160 I think there's a difference between taking the time to 774 00:45:46,160 --> 00:45:49,360 understand the universe. So like which are those 775 00:45:49,360 --> 00:45:52,320 stakeholders that are going to really impact the behavior and 776 00:45:52,320 --> 00:45:56,880 decision making and what's their level of impact going to be on 777 00:45:56,880 --> 00:46:00,720 the outcome And then selectively deciding like which can you pull 778 00:46:00,720 --> 00:46:04,240 in in the context of which intervention versus? 779 00:46:04,680 --> 00:46:08,680 Assuming you can pull in all of them every time for every 780 00:46:08,680 --> 00:46:11,720 design. So I think there's sometimes and 781 00:46:11,720 --> 00:46:14,920 I think COVID is a great example of this where a COVID 782 00:46:14,920 --> 00:46:18,200 vaccination is a great example of this where it really was 783 00:46:18,520 --> 00:46:23,080 worth it to invest in building relationships with community 784 00:46:23,080 --> 00:46:25,760 based organizations with faith-based leaders and they're 785 00:46:25,760 --> 00:46:28,720 going to have outsize impact on people's decision making. 786 00:46:29,120 --> 00:46:34,000 And so that that was definitely. A stakeholder that you had to 787 00:46:34,000 --> 00:46:36,640 draw in in the moment to be successful, and you could 788 00:46:36,840 --> 00:46:40,680 probably even like model the business impact of not doing so 789 00:46:40,680 --> 00:46:42,600 or what would happen if you didn't do so. 790 00:46:42,840 --> 00:46:45,560 But that doesn't mean in that same moment you need to engage 791 00:46:45,560 --> 00:46:48,760 like every single stakeholder in the stakeholder networks. 792 00:46:48,760 --> 00:46:51,200 I don't know if it's being a little bit pragmatic about 793 00:46:51,680 --> 00:46:55,800 making choices, about when you invest where you have to be, 794 00:46:55,800 --> 00:46:58,120 right. You can't do everything all the 795 00:46:58,120 --> 00:47:00,880 time. But yeah, I like and I I think 796 00:47:00,880 --> 00:47:02,720 that's a that's a good distinction. 797 00:47:02,720 --> 00:47:05,640 In the case of the COVID vaccine, it really felt like 798 00:47:05,640 --> 00:47:08,640 more of a community issue where like we need everyone to do this 799 00:47:08,640 --> 00:47:11,240 thing together right now. Whereas sometimes with 800 00:47:11,240 --> 00:47:14,720 individual health issues like it's it's, it's challenging to 801 00:47:14,720 --> 00:47:17,320 think about how would that even, like how would you even 802 00:47:17,320 --> 00:47:19,920 operationalize that like this person needs to take their 803 00:47:19,920 --> 00:47:23,360 cancer medication and this person needs to like get to more 804 00:47:23,360 --> 00:47:26,280 exercise and so on. So yeah I think that's that's 805 00:47:26,320 --> 00:47:27,760 that seems like a good distinction. 806 00:47:28,680 --> 00:47:30,920 Cool. Well I think we're ready to move 807 00:47:30,920 --> 00:47:34,520 on to a fun game. This is called would it 808 00:47:34,520 --> 00:47:37,240 replicate? And we're basically going to 809 00:47:37,240 --> 00:47:41,640 throw some some hypothetical sort of made-up research 810 00:47:41,640 --> 00:47:45,840 findings at you and we're going to ask you to tell us whether or 811 00:47:45,840 --> 00:47:48,160 not it would replicate. And you know, you can share like 812 00:47:48,720 --> 00:47:52,080 a couple sentences and and you know why you think that's the 813 00:47:52,080 --> 00:47:54,720 case or any of your own thoughts about the thing. 814 00:47:55,360 --> 00:47:58,240 So I will go 1st. And this is meant to be, you 815 00:47:58,360 --> 00:47:59,880 know, just kind of a thought experiment. 816 00:47:59,960 --> 00:48:02,520 You don't have to be we don't take it very seriously. 817 00:48:03,440 --> 00:48:05,120 Great. So you're ready. 818 00:48:06,160 --> 00:48:10,480 Awesome healthcare professionals who regularly read fiction have 819 00:48:10,480 --> 00:48:13,760 more empathy for their patients. I think that would replicate. 820 00:48:14,200 --> 00:48:17,560 But I also am very biased because I wanted to be a 821 00:48:17,560 --> 00:48:19,280 novelist for a large part of my life. 822 00:48:19,280 --> 00:48:21,080 So I believe very strong motion of power. 823 00:48:25,200 --> 00:48:27,240 OK, we'll see if you're biased on this one. 824 00:48:28,040 --> 00:48:31,680 Rock climbers take more risks in their regular lives. 825 00:48:32,040 --> 00:48:33,960 Wouldn't. Wouldn't replicate. 826 00:48:34,240 --> 00:48:36,720 Why not? Because the definition of like 827 00:48:36,840 --> 00:48:40,760 who's a rock climber has become so diluted recently that it's 828 00:48:40,760 --> 00:48:43,120 like basically analogous general population. 829 00:48:43,760 --> 00:48:45,680 I see. So it's like if you, if you 830 00:48:45,680 --> 00:48:48,480 belong to a rock climbing gym, you're now a rock climber. 831 00:48:49,280 --> 00:48:52,480 You you used to have to climb to Mount Everest, but now anyone? 832 00:48:52,480 --> 00:48:55,160 Exactly. Cool. 833 00:48:55,920 --> 00:48:57,840 OK? People who have lived in 834 00:48:57,840 --> 00:49:01,720 multiple countries report being more content with their current 835 00:49:01,720 --> 00:49:04,880 living situation. I think that would replicate 836 00:49:05,520 --> 00:49:10,840 mostly because your your norms, you're like baseline norms 837 00:49:11,000 --> 00:49:14,640 change and you're no longer pegged to just what you've grown 838 00:49:14,640 --> 00:49:16,360 up around, so. Very interesting. 839 00:49:16,560 --> 00:49:20,920 Patients living with a partner are more adherent to their 840 00:49:20,920 --> 00:49:23,680 medication. Regimen that would replicate, 841 00:49:23,680 --> 00:49:27,760 mostly because we've seen a lot of the impacts of like social 842 00:49:27,760 --> 00:49:31,000 isolation on health outcomes and health behavior. 843 00:49:31,200 --> 00:49:33,520 So I think just. Having that social support 844 00:49:33,520 --> 00:49:37,640 available, assuming that you'll have some baseline like respect 845 00:49:37,640 --> 00:49:44,000 and like of this partner, yeah, I would I would hope, yeah, I 846 00:49:44,000 --> 00:49:47,440 feel like maybe there is some research on this that that we 847 00:49:47,440 --> 00:49:50,200 can pull up if we really tried. OK. 848 00:49:50,760 --> 00:49:54,840 Dog owners are better prepared for the challenges of having a 849 00:49:54,840 --> 00:49:58,840 child, I guess like more than non dog owners. 850 00:49:59,360 --> 00:50:02,160 Would not replicate. I say that from my own 851 00:50:02,200 --> 00:50:05,720 experience, having owned a dog and being very ill prepared. 852 00:50:12,080 --> 00:50:12,440 I love it. Nice. 853 00:50:13,000 --> 00:50:15,240 OK. Innovation teams that pair 854 00:50:15,240 --> 00:50:19,320 design thinking with behavioral science methods have better 855 00:50:19,320 --> 00:50:23,360 outcomes than teams who use either approach on its own. 856 00:50:23,760 --> 00:50:29,000 I mean I I don't know what are the outcomes, like what are the 857 00:50:29,000 --> 00:50:31,840 outcomes that? We're holding these teams too. 858 00:50:31,840 --> 00:50:38,880 Is that profitability, let's say actual health outcomes of their 859 00:50:39,720 --> 00:50:44,160 their community of of interest? Health outcomes, I think that 860 00:50:44,160 --> 00:50:48,160 would that would replicate. Assuming you could like do these 861 00:50:48,160 --> 00:50:51,600 like organizational design studies in some kind of 862 00:50:52,200 --> 00:50:56,920 controlled way, on this podcast we can do anything. 863 00:50:57,320 --> 00:51:02,080 Great. Yeah, all right. 864 00:51:03,000 --> 00:51:06,000 When it comes to the relative importance of different social 865 00:51:06,000 --> 00:51:09,680 determinants of health in the results of a marshmallow test, 866 00:51:10,400 --> 00:51:14,800 economic stability has a greater effect than community context. 867 00:51:15,040 --> 00:51:19,680 So essentially having more money that matters more or the amount 868 00:51:19,680 --> 00:51:22,520 of money that you have matters more than where you live in 869 00:51:22,520 --> 00:51:25,560 determining your your marshmallow test or 870 00:51:25,560 --> 00:51:28,880 self-control, your quote UN quote self-control results. 871 00:51:29,720 --> 00:51:33,680 I think that wouldn't replicate, because what if some communities 872 00:51:33,680 --> 00:51:35,720 just, like, really hate marshmallows? 873 00:51:35,760 --> 00:51:39,560 Or like have a strong, strong averse. 874 00:51:41,640 --> 00:51:44,720 Yeah, you you took that to a very different place. 875 00:51:45,240 --> 00:51:48,560 We know that in in. In Tennessee, people hate 876 00:51:48,560 --> 00:51:52,360 marshmallows for sure. Yeah, the anti Smore community. 877 00:51:52,400 --> 00:51:57,440 Awesome. Yeah. 878 00:51:57,880 --> 00:51:59,920 OK. Final one. 879 00:52:00,280 --> 00:52:05,600 In responding to online patient questions, AI language models 880 00:52:05,600 --> 00:52:09,680 are more likely to be rated as showing more empathy than 881 00:52:09,680 --> 00:52:12,800 healthcare professionals. I don't think that would 882 00:52:12,800 --> 00:52:15,320 replicate. I think it's probably, I saw 883 00:52:15,360 --> 00:52:19,400 that headline recently, but I think there's something about if 884 00:52:19,440 --> 00:52:23,720 people become aware of that providers are likely to invest 885 00:52:23,720 --> 00:52:28,000 more like in their own empathy. Or at least the perception of 886 00:52:28,000 --> 00:52:31,440 their own apathy maybe just providing longer, longer 887 00:52:31,440 --> 00:52:33,880 responses, right? Yeah. 888 00:52:33,920 --> 00:52:35,600 It's a very interesting one, yeah. 889 00:52:35,880 --> 00:52:41,200 We're using AI to write the first draft of their yeah, 890 00:52:42,160 --> 00:52:44,400 that's funny. Yeah, I guess, I guess there's 891 00:52:44,400 --> 00:52:47,560 there. Well in this case I think the 892 00:52:47,800 --> 00:52:53,040 the responses were generated by real real doctors at least 893 00:52:53,040 --> 00:52:57,200 Reddit doctors pre ChatGPT. But that is an interesting sort 894 00:52:57,200 --> 00:53:00,200 of future case of like doctors, Doctors just put their answer 895 00:53:00,200 --> 00:53:04,640 translated into longer form using, using AI and then that's 896 00:53:04,640 --> 00:53:07,040 the that's the better version of it. 897 00:53:07,600 --> 00:53:09,880 OK, we have one final question for you. 898 00:53:10,560 --> 00:53:14,920 This is a really big one. So get ready, put your seat belt 899 00:53:14,920 --> 00:53:18,200 on. What is your most controversial 900 00:53:18,200 --> 00:53:23,080 opinion in behavioral science? My most controversial opinion? 901 00:53:23,080 --> 00:53:29,280 I think probably that sometimes in behavioral science we 902 00:53:29,480 --> 00:53:34,920 oversell what we're doing or the novelty of what we're doing and 903 00:53:34,920 --> 00:53:38,080 sometimes don't acknowledge. How common some of the 904 00:53:38,080 --> 00:53:41,600 approaches are in other fields that might just not have the 905 00:53:41,600 --> 00:53:45,360 same language for it or same ways to like disseminate and 906 00:53:45,360 --> 00:53:50,000 share the approaches for it. I think there's just been so 907 00:53:50,000 --> 00:53:54,200 much done in the global health space and implementation science 908 00:53:54,240 --> 00:53:58,480 base, even just in marketing and sort of more standard business 909 00:53:58,480 --> 00:54:02,640 disciplines and sometimes the way we frame or sell things like 910 00:54:02,640 --> 00:54:05,760 won't acknowledge the. The contributions or like 911 00:54:05,840 --> 00:54:09,480 baseline purchase and some of those other spaces, Yeah, that 912 00:54:09,480 --> 00:54:12,400 that that's very I I definitely have that same reaction 913 00:54:12,400 --> 00:54:14,800 sometimes where I'm like, this isn't special. 914 00:54:15,520 --> 00:54:17,840 We've been doing this for thousands of years. 915 00:54:18,360 --> 00:54:20,640 Yeah. Like what are you talking, what 916 00:54:20,640 --> 00:54:22,920 are you bragging about at the same time? 917 00:54:22,920 --> 00:54:28,280 Like I feel that drive or or or push to to kind of sell 918 00:54:28,280 --> 00:54:30,440 behavioral science so that people will adopt it so that we 919 00:54:30,440 --> 00:54:35,120 can run experiments so that you know like the the ultimate sort 920 00:54:35,120 --> 00:54:38,880 of it's almost like the the ends justify the means of overselling 921 00:54:38,880 --> 00:54:42,160 is is sort of how it feels sometimes but yeah. 922 00:54:42,600 --> 00:54:44,520 Yeah. And I guess it also just feels 923 00:54:44,520 --> 00:54:48,320 good to think that you've come up with something unique and 924 00:54:49,120 --> 00:54:55,440 it's probably you know. We have silos in many ways in in 925 00:54:55,440 --> 00:55:00,640 research and in application, but but even even with that, like 926 00:55:00,680 --> 00:55:04,120 the incentives for going outside of your silo, it's often times 927 00:55:04,120 --> 00:55:09,320 in that case maybe bad because you can end up finding out that 928 00:55:09,360 --> 00:55:12,120 something that you think you're very original around or thinking 929 00:55:12,120 --> 00:55:16,080 about is actually being done by someone else in other fields or 930 00:55:16,680 --> 00:55:18,200 you know, has been around before. 931 00:55:18,200 --> 00:55:19,840 And I think that's the same issue. 932 00:55:21,040 --> 00:55:23,440 You just invented the not invented here bias. 933 00:55:24,400 --> 00:55:31,000 Like, it's like so meta. Awesome, cool. 934 00:55:31,480 --> 00:55:34,480 This has been really fun. Thank you so much for joining 935 00:55:34,480 --> 00:55:37,320 us. And yeah, we'll we'll talk to 936 00:55:37,320 --> 00:55:38,320 you later. Yeah. 937 00:55:38,400 --> 00:55:40,120 Thank you so much, Arthy. We really appreciate it. 938 00:55:40,800 --> 00:55:41,880 Thank you guys. This is awesome. 939 00:55:44,040 --> 00:55:47,000 Time to wrap up another episode of the Behavioral Design 940 00:55:47,000 --> 00:55:49,480 Podcast. We hope you enjoyed the show. 941 00:55:49,960 --> 00:55:54,600 Oh, and I am an AI. Yeah, welcome to Uncanny Valley. 942 00:55:55,160 --> 00:55:57,880 Sam and Elaine told me. This is going to be an awesome 943 00:55:57,880 --> 00:56:00,640 season, so make sure to subscribe and help spread the 944 00:56:00,640 --> 00:56:02,720 word. Maybe share the podcast with a 945 00:56:02,720 --> 00:56:06,280 colleague or friend. And if you want to show us some 946 00:56:06,320 --> 00:56:08,760 extra love, head over to Habit Weekly. 947 00:56:09,160 --> 00:56:12,280 Come and join our community. Pro members get access to a 948 00:56:12,280 --> 00:56:15,120 wealth of resources and the chance to interact with leading 949 00:56:15,120 --> 00:56:17,960 practitioners. It's a great way to support the 950 00:56:17,960 --> 00:56:20,560 podcast and deepen your understanding of behavioral 951 00:56:20,560 --> 00:56:23,280 design. Our fantastic show music is 952 00:56:23,280 --> 00:56:26,880 Murgatroyd by the wonderful Dave Pizarro, and thanks to the team 953 00:56:26,880 --> 00:56:29,680 at Orange Wall Media for the production of this episode. 954 00:56:30,040 --> 00:56:34,040 For questions or ideas for future episodes, e-mail Podcast 955 00:56:34,040 --> 00:56:37,600 at Habit weekly.com We'd love to hear from you. 956 00:56:38,120 --> 00:56:40,480 Thanks again for listening. See you next time.