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Welcome to another episode of 
the behavioral design podcast. 

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I am Simon concert with a lien 
Haley. 

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Hi, how's it going? 
Pretty good on a shining in 

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Stockholm, I'll buy you one day.
The one day of the year that 

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this is true. 
It's I'm inside it. 

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Your podcast. 
Yeah. 

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Yeah, you get out there. 
You gotta savor it while it 

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lasts. 
Yeah, I heard you had a nice. 

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You've been traveling porting. 
Yeah, I had a couple trips 

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Seattle Portland. 
It's usually quite rainy and 

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dismal over there. 
But it was all so lovely. 

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I think it's just the springtime
effect. 

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Everywhere is beautiful in the 
spring. 

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Doesn't matter where you go. 
Yeah, that's true. 

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I definitely forgot how awesome 
the spring is after a long 

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winter. 
In Sweden. 

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And like it's his feel so good. 
I have to make it easy to forget

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when you're suffering from 
seasonal affective disorder, so 

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ugly. 
Exactly. 

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Anyway, we have a really 
interesting topic today. 

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In the episode, we do these 
product D types between our kind

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of guest episodes and we're 
getting into things sometimes. 

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Most of the time we try with you
like we experiment with variable

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rewards. 
Yeah. 

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We don't want to keep like It's 
too predictable. 

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Yeah, but anyway we have 
interesting topic but before 

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then I wanted to see if you've 
heard a episode of another 

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podcast it's if books could kill
their, they have a podcast on 

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kind of exploring various books 
from popular psychology to you 

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know the five love languages and
stuff like this to kind of in 

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some ways debunk and go quite 
hard. 

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Like their style is too 
probably. 

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To be overly critical in some 
ways, that's and really going 

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for it. 
And they had a podcast recently 

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or not, the book Nudge by Cass 
sunstein and thaler iterations 

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to listen to that. 
Yeah, yeah. 

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I'm definitely a fan of this 
podcast. 

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I listened to the first part so 
that the nudge is a two-part. 

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I guess, two episodes that go 
together, I've only listened to 

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the first half so I can comment 
on that part. 

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And then I also listen to the 
their first episode is on was on

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freaking out. 
Thanks. 

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But you can see his is a related
as well. 

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I was kind of surprised, how 
many of their airport books I 

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have never read or you know, or 
have heard of but not I'm not 

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really that familiar with 
because I think of myself is 

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kind of a big reader but yeah, 
I'm excited to hear more of 

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theirs. 
And I'd love to know what you 

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thought about the, the nudge 
episode. 

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They definitely. 
I mean, you're right. 

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Like they take these books and 
they just shred them to pieces. 

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Pieces. 
There's like and they naturally 

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did that too much, as well. 
Yeah, and it's not, it's hard to

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say, like it's hard not to feel 
a little bit sorry for for, in 

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this case, the authors, because 
they go for them quite hard. 

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However, it's also interesting 
to kind of just get this in some

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ways outside perspective on 
specifically, you know, this 

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book, maybe less so the field as
a whole, but more kind of write 

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this book, and and it's clear. 
It is an outside perspective 

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that that I think is very much 
true. 

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These are not social scientists 
talking about libertarian 

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paternalism. 
These are people who are very 

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much outside our sphere. 
And so yeah, hearing their 

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perspective is very interesting.
Yeah. 

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And I guess to talk about some 
of the things they mentioned. 

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One thing that I appreciate the 
bring up, is the donation study?

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Yeah. 
Because you know there's a 

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couple of things that you can 
tell. 

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He's yeah we're going to Nation.
So when it comes to our field, 

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especially someone who's kind of
like getting started into the 

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field and want to do a 
presentation about it is like, 

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there's kind of a handful of 
things. 

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You will always see in a 
presentation and it's, like, 

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urinal nudge. 
It's like the donation of organ 

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study and there's a couple of 
others, and it's interesting, 

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because for the book Nudge, I 
think the organ donation study 

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has been with the urinal kind 
of, I don't know. 

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It's not easy. 
It's understudy. 

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It's more of a anecdotal story. 
Those two have been like very, 

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very kind of big part of 
explaining nudge, great white in

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the piano stairs and what most 
people think of, as Behavioral 

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Science. 
So I guess why, I think it's 

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nice that they race. 
It is a issues that, you know, 

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while you have been shown to 
differences across different 

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countries when the default is to
being to be organ donor or not. 

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That is, in many ways. 
What could be called, like, a 

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vanity metric in that, who 
cares, really? 

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How many people are registered 
as organ donors. 

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What really matters is if people
need organs, do they get them? 

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And how efficiently, how does 
that translate into actual organ

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donation? 
Not the intention but the, well,

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yeah, the the donation and the 
receipt of organs. 

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Yeah, exactly. 
And I like that. 

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Yeah. 
There's not really that strong 

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evidence to To suggest that 
because there's a default in 

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place automatically get someone 
there. 

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Do you do you know, is there no 
movement or is there just not as

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extreme movement? 
I've looked into it again, but 

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they say, and it seems like 
they've done the research. 

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But again, like hurt a good 
pinch of salt, they claim that 

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it's no difference. 
And even that some countries 

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that have shifted regret has 
like explicitly said, he 

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regretted shifting it, and that 
it's like wasted attention on 

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wrong, are Of where you should 
improve things. 

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In terms of great, we can get 
more people to be potential 

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organ, donors, but many 
countries is also very complex 

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still to actually get that 
organ, officially kind of 

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cleared and then all of the 
distribution and Logistics and 

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everything involved to actually 
get people. 

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I mean there's this very much 
relates to our conversation with

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Nick and in terms of the 
system's level versus individual

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level interventions. 
You can think of the organ 

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donation is very much individual
Trying to encourage people to, 

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you know, check the right box 
with because through and and opt

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out. 
I was have to pause and make 

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sure I'm saying the right one. 
Yeah. 

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Right. 
The default is to opt in and you

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need to check the box to 
opt-out. 

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Yes. 
Or as maybe the thing that's 

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really needed is the 
infrastructure to make it easy 

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for organs to be donated and 
transplanted. 

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And like, that's really what we 
should be. 

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Kissing on rather than these 
individual level interventions. 

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I think another thing in the 
podcast that is raised is the 

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idea that The book doesn't do a 
good job of sticking to his 

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definition of what a nudge is in
terms of, you know, it starts to

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finding a nudge. 
And then, as the book progresses

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is lot of interventions being 
suggested, which are like very 

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regulatory. 
Varying incentive focused or 

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completely incentives. 
Yeah, they really are incentives

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like me that, you know, a 
different formation of the 

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incentive. 
Maybe it uses loss of version by

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giving someone something up 
front and then taking it away, 

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but it's still Will an 
incentive. 

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Yeah. 
So yeah, that I mean that I 

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found fascinating because I read
this book so long ago, it came 

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out in 2008 like I was in a 
second and say what I was doing 

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in 2008 but that was a long time
ago and I just forgot I didn't, 

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you know, now as a you know, 
somewhat mature behavioral 

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scientist, I didn't realize that
these examples are really you 

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know, you could catalog them as 
very You know, all this sea 

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level. 
Yeah, incentive based 

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interventions. 
So yeah, that that was a little 

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bit mind-blowing for me to come 
back and realize. 

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Yeah, and I guess my somewhat 
informed prediction is that, you

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know, the story goes that Taylor
and sunstein wanted the book to 

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be called something libertarian,
paternalism 101. 

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You know, or you know exactly 
what they wanted to be called 

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are gonna sell any Copies. 
Yeah. 

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And so the book publisher was 
like, you know, What could be 

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better? 
Name will be nudging and they 

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agreed and maybe, like my 
prediction. 

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Is that maybe they then instead 
of completely changing the whole

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structure of the book or 
rethinking things, they were 

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like, well, maybe we can kind of
use squeaking. 

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Some other things here within 
this idea of nudging. 

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And make it work. 
But really the book is a book 

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about a Libertarian paternalism.
Uh-huh. 

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What would you think about that?
Yeah, I mean I guess I don't 

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know like what boundaries does 
libertarian paternalism have. 

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Can you not have incentives with
libertarian paternalism if so? 

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Like, I don't know, I don't know
if I really buy that. 

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Okay, well either way, it's it's
just going to bring us to this 

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kind of confusion of like, well,
what is Judging and yeah like a 

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lot of people will ask that and 
you know also this something 

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that I've I'm sure your V 
experience where people are 

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coming to like hey can you teach
us not doing and then he was 

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like well yeah but he likes mean
by that is if the author's don't

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even know. 
Yeah. 

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Yeah it's interesting because 
it's one of those things that 

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that one pretends has a very 
clear definition. 

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But then when you get down to 
the actual Examples, you 

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realize, oh no, this is there 
are not like really clearly 

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defined lines here. 
That's not that important to me 

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though. 
I don't I think there's a lot of

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squabbling in the world about 
like what counts as a nudge and 

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what doesn't? 
And I don't know. 

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I think it's a lie. 
No, I think it's completely 

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unimportant. 
Things are good. 

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Yeah, exactly. 
That's what matters. 

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Yeah, but anyway, I guess we 
don't often this inform other 

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discussion on other podcast, but
you know, this was kind of a 

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fun, fun one. 
In some ways. 

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And yeah, if you as a listener, 
have a chance to listen to it, 

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share your thoughts with us. 
You can email podcast at have a 

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weak, little calm. 
And yeah, be interesting to 

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hear. 
So we've been talking about, not

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judging. 
And there's actually some 

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examples where when it comes to 
driving You know, nudging has 

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been kind of shown as like, you 
are good examples of nudging. 

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Good. 
You can have some form of 

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traffic signs being considered a
nudge. 

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Yeah, certain indicators within 
the vehicle and so on considered

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a nudge, maybe as well. 
Yeah, well, slow down with the, 

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like, the haptic feedback that 
yeah, yeah, exactly. 

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And or in case of I'm in this 
kind of car pool here in 

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Stockholm for electric cars, and
with Volvo. 

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And when you drive I've over the
speed limit. 

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It doesn't obviously stop you 
from driving like 50 when you 

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supposed to go 40. 
But you then see that there's 

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like, oh no, like there's a 
clear indication that now you're

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above this speed limit in this 
zone, for example, which is 

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probably the definition of a 
nurturing in many ways. 

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Yeah, yeah. 
There's a setting on my car 

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actually, where you can set the 
max, I guess, like distance over

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the speed limit that you want to
go, and then it will 

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automatically prevent you. 
You can overwrite it, right? 

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But it's sort of nudge. 
You in the right direction to 

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not speed too much and I like 
that. 

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So it's be too much. 
What does that say about you as 

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a person like this episode I'm 
from Los Angeles. 

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Only 10 miles over the speed 
limit, you know, us aside topic.

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I think that I don't know if 
there's any research on this but

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I find that to be like, super 
interesting thing in terms of 

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like setting speed limit because
I like, I have this weird thing 

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where I have, I can go ten 
percent above The speed limit. 

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So if it's like 40, I can go 
around 45. 

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If it's you know, I'm dragging 
110 in kilometers that's in my 

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head but I'm no clue what other 
people have in terms of, you 

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know, what is a okay, speed you 
think of the tolerance as a 

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percentage, not as an absolute 
number interesting. 

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Well the traffic laws. 
Do not do not think of it that 

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way. 
When I when I have Been pulled? 

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Yes, I have been pulled over for
speeding when that has happened 

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in the past. 
It's definitely just the raw 

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number and and is too much. 
It turns out. 

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Yeah. 
But don't you think that it's 

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00:13:08,200 --> 00:13:11,700
better than to follow like a 
percentage because like you'll 

229
00:13:11,700 --> 00:13:17,500
be less likely to be pulled over
driving 45 in a 40 then driving 

230
00:13:17,500 --> 00:13:20,300
50. 
For example I definitely think 

231
00:13:20,300 --> 00:13:25,400
so with some exceptions and it 
also sort of follows the 

232
00:13:25,400 --> 00:13:29,500
intuition That come out of the 
psychometric research and how we

233
00:13:29,500 --> 00:13:34,100
like, think of the importance of
different amounts as the sort of

234
00:13:34,100 --> 00:13:36,200
face amount increases. 
Yeah. 

235
00:13:36,500 --> 00:13:38,600
But it'd be super nourishing to 
know, like the thought process 

236
00:13:38,600 --> 00:13:39,800
of like setting, the speed 
limit. 

237
00:13:39,800 --> 00:13:41,900
I'm sure it's part of the 
calculation. 

238
00:13:41,900 --> 00:13:44,000
Like, we're, we're going to set 
it at. 

239
00:13:44,100 --> 00:13:49,800
Let's say, 50 because we think 
that this road can be, okay, if 

240
00:13:49,800 --> 00:13:54,300
you go 55 or, I don't know, 
don't you think that's part of 

241
00:13:54,308 --> 00:13:56,000
the yeah? 
Yeah, I'm sure there. 

242
00:13:56,300 --> 00:13:59,000
There's some tolerance, but I 
wonder. 

243
00:13:59,000 --> 00:14:00,900
I wonder if there's been 
research to see like, what are 

244
00:14:00,900 --> 00:14:03,600
people's, like, internal mental 
models for. 

245
00:14:03,700 --> 00:14:07,000
What is? 
Yeah, we're gonna have to get 

246
00:14:07,000 --> 00:14:13,100
get like a highway safety 
psychologist on the, on the 

247
00:14:13,100 --> 00:14:14,700
podcast. 
I really don't want. 

248
00:14:14,700 --> 00:14:17,400
Let us know. 
Anyway, I guess we're segue into

249
00:14:17,400 --> 00:14:20,800
talking about autonomous 
vehicles which was the product 

250
00:14:20,900 --> 00:14:24,600
of Nick Shader and what it 
really interesting chat with him

251
00:14:24,600 --> 00:14:27,000
about that. 
Now we're going to dive a little

252
00:14:27,000 --> 00:14:31,500
bit deeper, so I mean, first, 
maybe I'll give a really quick 

253
00:14:31,500 --> 00:14:33,500
recap of the yes. 
The types of things that we 

254
00:14:33,500 --> 00:14:36,300
talked about with him because, 
you know, I'm sure you know, 

255
00:14:36,300 --> 00:14:39,700
it's been a week, we forgotten, 
we can just sort of refresh 

256
00:14:39,700 --> 00:14:45,000
those, those topics and I think 
a lot of what Nick was kind of 

257
00:14:45,000 --> 00:14:48,200
concerned about with autonomous 
vehicles was just having the 

258
00:14:48,200 --> 00:14:51,800
combination of both human 
drivers and non-human drivers on

259
00:14:51,800 --> 00:14:54,600
the same road. 
And like how can we like create 

260
00:14:54,600 --> 00:14:57,800
physical barriers? 
To put these two types in 

261
00:14:57,800 --> 00:15:01,500
different places, that was one 
of the solutions that that he 

262
00:15:01,500 --> 00:15:04,700
had. 
And and then also just like the 

263
00:15:04,700 --> 00:15:08,600
challenges of communicating 
between between the two. 

264
00:15:08,800 --> 00:15:12,200
So what that when an autonomous 
vehicle has some intention or 

265
00:15:12,200 --> 00:15:14,600
you can think of it as an 
intention or like is good trying

266
00:15:14,600 --> 00:15:18,300
to signal to do something? 
How is that transmitted to human

267
00:15:18,300 --> 00:15:20,600
drivers so that they can 
communicate? 

268
00:15:20,700 --> 00:15:23,300
And he was a little bit of the 
opinion that like they can't 

269
00:15:23,300 --> 00:15:25,700
really this is this is a problem
and so we should separate the 

270
00:15:25,700 --> 00:15:28,700
two. 
I'm not sure that I fully agree 

271
00:15:28,700 --> 00:15:30,400
with that. 
What is your, what is your 

272
00:15:30,400 --> 00:15:35,700
thought on that in general? 
Yeah, for me it seems like the 

273
00:15:35,700 --> 00:15:40,900
infrastructure to support these 
two different types. 

274
00:15:41,300 --> 00:15:44,200
Like it might be the case that 
by the time and this is really 

275
00:15:44,300 --> 00:15:46,100
futuristic. 
All I'm talking but like by the 

276
00:15:46,100 --> 00:15:51,000
time you create these, these two
different Lanes in the 

277
00:15:51,100 --> 00:15:53,400
throughout the entire world, 
like there aren't going to be 

278
00:15:53,400 --> 00:15:55,800
any human dry fruits that are 
even worse. 

279
00:15:56,200 --> 00:16:00,500
Like it's secretive like I don't
know, not anticipating a future 

280
00:16:00,500 --> 00:16:07,000
of all driverless cars and I'm 
not sure like I'm kind of 

281
00:16:07,000 --> 00:16:10,800
learned to try not to predict 
the future, but I definitely 

282
00:16:10,900 --> 00:16:14,900
have believed at a time in my 
life that, you know, we just 

283
00:16:14,900 --> 00:16:17,900
wouldn't need to drive anymore. 
Humans are just not very good at

284
00:16:17,900 --> 00:16:20,200
driving. 
Yeah, I think that the more that

285
00:16:20,200 --> 00:16:24,000
we can take these, you know, 
2-ton machines out of their 

286
00:16:24,000 --> 00:16:26,100
hands and give them to 
something. 

287
00:16:26,200 --> 00:16:30,300
Capable then I'm pretty pretty 
big fan of that. 

288
00:16:30,400 --> 00:16:33,700
Yeah, I think I like one of the 
main things that I've been 

289
00:16:33,708 --> 00:16:37,100
thinking about since this 
recording of the episode is just

290
00:16:37,400 --> 00:16:42,200
idea of in general development 
of autonomous driving being 

291
00:16:42,200 --> 00:16:46,900
something where initially, you 
know, it was said that, okay, 

292
00:16:46,900 --> 00:16:49,600
this is going to happen in the 
next. 

293
00:16:49,800 --> 00:16:51,400
I don't know, few years 5 years,
I don't know. 

294
00:16:52,100 --> 00:16:55,700
And then time goes by and kind 
of the initial low hanging 

295
00:16:55,700 --> 00:16:57,300
fruits. 
It's that kind of create a lot 

296
00:16:57,300 --> 00:17:01,200
of progress and it was converted
into kind of like these really 

297
00:17:01,200 --> 00:17:07,700
complex hard to solve problems. 
That kind of yeah use were under

298
00:17:07,700 --> 00:17:09,200
estimating like how complex they
are. 

299
00:17:10,300 --> 00:17:12,200
And this feels like a good 
example of as well in terms of 

300
00:17:12,200 --> 00:17:16,500
like thinking about something 
where if in driving Lanes you 

301
00:17:16,500 --> 00:17:19,200
know if it's going to be one 
more autonomous vehicles, 14 

302
00:17:19,200 --> 00:17:23,599
not, is there going to be some 
form of like overarching kind of

303
00:17:23,599 --> 00:17:28,200
connected governmental regulated
System that kind of also needs 

304
00:17:28,200 --> 00:17:32,600
to protect autonomous vehicles 
from the non autonomous vehicles

305
00:17:32,600 --> 00:17:35,800
in some way so that 
non-autonomous have some form of

306
00:17:35,800 --> 00:17:39,300
like override the government can
not block. 

307
00:17:39,300 --> 00:17:42,600
So the, I don't know, it seems 
like a lot of these are complex 

308
00:17:42,600 --> 00:17:46,200
things that could come up along 
the way of making that happen. 

309
00:17:46,500 --> 00:17:50,900
But I'm with you like I think it
will be Cool in general. 

310
00:17:50,900 --> 00:17:52,700
But also like it does make 
sense. 

311
00:17:53,000 --> 00:17:58,500
And from many many reasons it's 
also like we gotta get to a 

312
00:17:58,500 --> 00:18:05,800
point where we're kind of used 
in a kind of pods in a way that 

313
00:18:05,800 --> 00:18:10,900
are like public transport but 
used in our own kind of tram 

314
00:18:11,500 --> 00:18:12,800
card or something. 
Yeah. 

315
00:18:13,100 --> 00:18:17,400
I just think of all the all the 
physical infrastructure that 

316
00:18:17,400 --> 00:18:20,600
would need to be built for that.
And I look at the the road 

317
00:18:20,600 --> 00:18:24,900
outside of my house that hasn't 
been replaced in like 25 years 

318
00:18:25,400 --> 00:18:29,800
like you're right. 
How is that work? 

319
00:18:31,200 --> 00:18:34,200
Yeah no I think that's one of 
those things like it just it 

320
00:18:34,200 --> 00:18:38,000
just seems quite far off but I 
thought one interesting thing to

321
00:18:38,100 --> 00:18:41,500
kind of discuss around you know 
generally this topic but also 

322
00:18:41,900 --> 00:18:46,100
the behavioural science side of 
driving and so on is related to 

323
00:18:46,100 --> 00:18:50,900
an article that and a cigar All 
essay written by brilliant 

324
00:18:50,900 --> 00:18:56,000
person. 
Which is you and oh boy. 

325
00:18:57,800 --> 00:19:00,400
Okay, where are we going with 
this? 

326
00:19:00,500 --> 00:19:02,000
Yeah, I do. 
Just trying to give her 

327
00:19:02,000 --> 00:19:05,000
compliments and be be nice, but 
it was really nice article was 

328
00:19:05,000 --> 00:19:08,500
published. 
I think in 2018, for evil 

329
00:19:08,500 --> 00:19:12,100
scientist's. 
So, yes, some, this is a ages 

330
00:19:12,100 --> 00:19:15,000
ago. 
I have not lost my enthusiasm 

331
00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:17,500
for the topic of attention. 
But you said what you're 

332
00:19:17,500 --> 00:19:20,900
referring to The real reason you
shouldn't text while driving 

333
00:19:20,900 --> 00:19:23,300
which is which is something I 
wrote a while back for 

334
00:19:23,300 --> 00:19:29,100
Behavioral scientists. 
And what did you want to talk 

335
00:19:29,100 --> 00:19:32,800
about texting while driving? 
I think I wanted to talk about 

336
00:19:32,800 --> 00:19:36,700
texting while driving because 
people often frame texting while

337
00:19:36,700 --> 00:19:42,700
driving as one of these sort of 
like a major flaws in human 

338
00:19:42,700 --> 00:19:47,300
behavior and it kind of just 
bothered me that no one talks 

339
00:19:47,300 --> 00:19:50,800
about King. 
Well, drag really distracted 

340
00:19:50,800 --> 00:19:54,800
driving talking while driving 
like like, it doesn't to me 

341
00:19:54,800 --> 00:20:00,100
capture the or of what's really 
going on like why texting while 

342
00:20:00,100 --> 00:20:03,300
driving is a problem. 
And I don't think it's bad to 

343
00:20:03,300 --> 00:20:08,000
like talk about why texting 
while driving is problematic. 

344
00:20:08,100 --> 00:20:11,900
I just think there's so much 
more to the topic that I wanted 

345
00:20:11,900 --> 00:20:14,100
to share. 
And so that's like it all goes 

346
00:20:14,100 --> 00:20:17,200
down to attention and anything 
that takes away from are 

347
00:20:17,200 --> 00:20:20,800
extremely Limited. 
Acity for attending to, you know

348
00:20:20,900 --> 00:20:25,100
one thing at a time really is 
really like setting you up for a

349
00:20:25,100 --> 00:20:28,100
disaster and so I don't know. 
Did you want? 

350
00:20:28,100 --> 00:20:30,300
Did you have anything in 
particular, you wanted to talk 

351
00:20:30,300 --> 00:20:32,100
about what the, what the 
article? 

352
00:20:32,500 --> 00:20:34,100
Yeah. 
And I think this it touches upon

353
00:20:34,100 --> 00:20:38,700
a lot of interesting things I 
think from my side of, you know,

354
00:20:38,700 --> 00:20:42,200
working a lot with habits. 
I think it's a fascinating case 

355
00:20:42,200 --> 00:20:45,400
study of how habits can 
transform. 

356
00:20:46,800 --> 00:20:50,600
Our lives in a way where we can 
go from being these like, very 

357
00:20:50,600 --> 00:20:54,000
awkward people in the car for 
the first time, trying to kind 

358
00:20:54,000 --> 00:20:59,100
of, especially I learn with like
a shift steering like, with not 

359
00:20:59,100 --> 00:21:03,100
automatic but manual, but even 
with manual or sorry at matok, a

360
00:21:03,108 --> 00:21:04,800
lot of people feel very awkward 
in the car. 

361
00:21:05,500 --> 00:21:10,800
A do a lot of false starts and 
suddenly couple of months later 

362
00:21:10,900 --> 00:21:14,800
or you know, after having driven
for a while getting their 

363
00:21:14,800 --> 00:21:19,200
license. 
Not only drive, but they 

364
00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:23,400
listened to the podcast and text
all the time plus all of a 

365
00:21:23,400 --> 00:21:24,000
sudden. 
Yeah. 

366
00:21:24,800 --> 00:21:27,900
And it's obviously very 
problematic from like the point 

367
00:21:27,900 --> 00:21:31,100
of attention, but it's also 
fascinating that through our 

368
00:21:31,100 --> 00:21:35,000
mind we can kind of get that 
level of automaticity. 

369
00:21:35,400 --> 00:21:37,600
The thing that's really 
interesting but and how 

370
00:21:37,600 --> 00:21:41,000
successful we are the vast 
majority of the time when 

371
00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:43,500
nothing goes wrong. 
That is also amazing. 

372
00:21:43,700 --> 00:21:45,700
Yeah. 
And part of the problem, I guess

373
00:21:45,700 --> 00:21:48,500
in that like, We talked about 
before the podcast that we can 

374
00:21:48,500 --> 00:21:53,200
like, then if this false sense 
of risk, they were like, you 

375
00:21:53,200 --> 00:21:54,700
know? 
Yeah, it's not okay, Iris. 

376
00:21:54,700 --> 00:21:57,100
Yeah. 
You each time you text while 

377
00:21:57,100 --> 00:22:00,100
driving and nothing bad happens.
You sort of update your 

378
00:22:00,100 --> 00:22:04,000
probability of a crash is like 
well that's a bad maybe like I 

379
00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:07,000
thought it was a you know two 
percent chance. 

380
00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:10,700
Maybe there's a chance and then 
the next time you do it maybe. 

381
00:22:10,700 --> 00:22:13,500
And and each time you do you 
think oh like that's not gonna 

382
00:22:13,500 --> 00:22:16,100
happen to me like look how look 
how good I am. 

383
00:22:16,300 --> 00:22:17,900
Texting while driving. 
Yeah. 

384
00:22:17,900 --> 00:22:20,900
So think that there's that 
there's also the sort of general

385
00:22:20,900 --> 00:22:24,100
overconfidence and believing 
that you're immune to the thing 

386
00:22:24,100 --> 00:22:28,700
to like the risks that can. 
But other people fall prey to 

387
00:22:28,700 --> 00:22:31,900
and like, whatever study, I 
think this is something that's 

388
00:22:31,900 --> 00:22:35,500
been replicated over and over 
again, we're you ask people like

389
00:22:35,700 --> 00:22:37,900
how like a good of a driver are 
you? 

390
00:22:37,900 --> 00:22:44,700
And everyone is way above 
average, that's not possible. 

391
00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:47,300
Yeah, so there's that. 
But Then it's also just like 

392
00:22:47,300 --> 00:22:50,900
the, I think going back to the, 
to the development of this 

393
00:22:50,900 --> 00:22:53,200
habit. 
And the mindlessness is that it 

394
00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:56,900
just doesn't feel dangerous. 
You feel like it's fine because 

395
00:22:56,900 --> 00:23:01,300
it's easy to do and you have 
that practice over time. 

396
00:23:01,600 --> 00:23:04,600
But of course it's not, it's not
the case because you're just not

397
00:23:04,600 --> 00:23:08,100
able to react when your 
attention is divided in such a 

398
00:23:08,100 --> 00:23:10,200
way. 
You know, you don't actually see

399
00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:12,700
that, there's someone crossing 
the street when you're not 

400
00:23:12,700 --> 00:23:15,200
looking and not attending more 
importantly. 

401
00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:17,300
Yeah, I guess. 
Two things quickly. 

402
00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:21,500
Are you above average driver? 
I'm way below him. 

403
00:23:22,700 --> 00:23:26,900
Oh no, I'm not in my bag, 
actually. 

404
00:23:27,100 --> 00:23:30,900
I'm quite a good driver. 
I'm a very bad Parker. 

405
00:23:31,800 --> 00:23:34,700
Very better parking. 
I've only driven most of my 

406
00:23:34,700 --> 00:23:38,500
life, tiny cars, I had a 
Volkswagen Beetle and that I had

407
00:23:38,500 --> 00:23:44,600
a Fiat and so I really am only 
able to navigate have a lot of 

408
00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:46,500
extra kind of Wiggle. 
Room. 

409
00:23:46,700 --> 00:23:47,200
Yeah. 
Yeah. 

410
00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:49,500
So what? 
I drive a normal like I recently

411
00:23:49,900 --> 00:23:55,400
a year ago got but a actually, 
an autonomous vehicle and it is 

412
00:23:55,400 --> 00:24:00,600
much much much larger than my 
tiny cars and so I have I really

413
00:24:00,600 --> 00:24:03,500
struggle with the parking aspect
of that. 

414
00:24:04,700 --> 00:24:11,900
Every time I try not to drive, 
if I'm okay, well maybe then you

415
00:24:11,900 --> 00:24:13,700
don't have this problem. 
But in talking about 

416
00:24:13,700 --> 00:24:16,500
overconfidence do you see any 
good interventions for And of 

417
00:24:16,500 --> 00:24:21,200
managing overconfidence or like 
how would you go about 

418
00:24:21,500 --> 00:24:25,300
supporting people in maybe, 
taking less risks, or being 

419
00:24:25,300 --> 00:24:27,400
better at dividing their 
attention? 

420
00:24:27,800 --> 00:24:29,700
Yeah. 
When driving, I think, any 

421
00:24:29,700 --> 00:24:34,500
version of a commitment device 
in this case is the right one 

422
00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:40,200
and that's not relying on 
yourself to make a good decision

423
00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:43,800
in the moment because it's just 
too tempting. 

424
00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:46,100
I think we have to recognize 
that it's too tight. 

425
00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:49,800
Thing, when you get a text, like
it's irresistible, like, if your

426
00:24:49,800 --> 00:24:52,100
phone is, there you are going to
look at it. 

427
00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:55,800
And one feature that I really 
hate that comes along with some 

428
00:24:55,800 --> 00:24:58,500
newer Vehicles. 
Like, the one I mentioned is it 

429
00:24:58,500 --> 00:25:02,100
actually shows up on the screen 
you're like, it's integrated 

430
00:25:02,100 --> 00:25:04,200
with your phone. 
It's like, no, no, that's not 

431
00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:06,400
the right thing to do. 
It's not better to bring my 

432
00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:10,100
texts right in front of me. 
Like this is absolutely the 

433
00:25:10,100 --> 00:25:12,900
wrong design decision. 
But yeah, it's so that, you 

434
00:25:12,900 --> 00:25:15,400
know, there's different versions
of Do Not Disturb where you can 

435
00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:18,400
kind of set your On to not let 
you know while you're driving. 

436
00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:21,800
And I like that you can sort of 
automatically detect that that's

437
00:25:21,800 --> 00:25:23,300
happening. 
Of course, there's a stronger 

438
00:25:23,300 --> 00:25:25,700
intervention, you know? 
Because you can, of course 

439
00:25:25,700 --> 00:25:28,000
override this right. 
You can pick up your phone 

440
00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:30,900
anytime you want. 
If something comes to mind, you 

441
00:25:30,900 --> 00:25:36,600
need to tell someone something. 
So, I think like, if you're, you

442
00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:40,600
know, really doing it, right? 
You can, you can take an even 

443
00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:44,700
stronger approach and physically
put your phone elsewhere so that

444
00:25:44,700 --> 00:25:46,100
you can't reach it while you're 
driving. 

445
00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:48,500
Saying that's the, put your 
phone in the trunk approach and 

446
00:25:48,500 --> 00:25:50,300
I think that's going to be much 
more effective. 

447
00:25:50,300 --> 00:25:54,100
It is inconvenient if you need 
your phone for mostly sun or 

448
00:25:54,100 --> 00:25:55,900
yeah. 
What if something bad happens 

449
00:25:55,900 --> 00:25:58,000
like if you need something bad 
happens? 

450
00:25:58,000 --> 00:25:59,800
Yeah. 
But like how often does that how

451
00:25:59,800 --> 00:26:01,700
often do you actually need your 
phone? 

452
00:26:01,900 --> 00:26:05,200
Yeah it's a good a good one. 
Probably know he's thought about

453
00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:08,300
like all the worst case. 
Scenarios that yeah well 

454
00:26:08,300 --> 00:26:10,400
exactly. 
But if you take your like your 

455
00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:14,600
actual average like probably the
benefits of not having your 

456
00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:19,000
phone override, The cons of like
oh you got into an accident and 

457
00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:21,200
you can't reach it. 
Yeah I haven't made this 

458
00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:23,400
connection before but it just 
seems very very similar to the 

459
00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:26,800
discussion about like how do we 
stop using our phones as much in

460
00:26:26,800 --> 00:26:30,700
general, in terms of put them on
black and white screen or 

461
00:26:30,708 --> 00:26:32,300
whatever? 
Great grace grayscale. 

462
00:26:32,300 --> 00:26:36,400
And like all of these things to 
kind of get people to. 

463
00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:41,000
That's a use social media less, 
oftentimes adds a burden on them

464
00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:43,900
to kind of go into this part of 
the setting then go here and 

465
00:26:43,900 --> 00:26:46,300
then you go to accessibility and
then In. 

466
00:26:46,300 --> 00:26:50,800
There you go, in, like how many 
people is actually going on? 

467
00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:53,700
Friction. 
A lot of friction and I guess 

468
00:26:53,700 --> 00:26:57,300
here it is. 
Interesting that I guess. 

469
00:26:57,600 --> 00:27:00,000
Yeah. 
Car manufacturers are 

470
00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:03,800
incentivized to kind of cater to
people's. 

471
00:27:04,400 --> 00:27:05,500
Yeah. 
Want to make it easier for that.

472
00:27:05,500 --> 00:27:10,300
Mike do you want to take calls 
and texts listen to music and 

473
00:27:10,800 --> 00:27:13,100
same time will do that for you, 
you know? 

474
00:27:13,100 --> 00:27:16,400
Yeah, I feel like the 
paternalistic approach is much 

475
00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:20,200
more palatable when it comes to 
driving and safety. 

476
00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:25,400
Whereas, if it's like your 
well-being, like, if someone 

477
00:27:25,400 --> 00:27:29,900
were to That you're doomed 
scrolling and say like this is 

478
00:27:29,900 --> 00:27:32,800
not good for you. 
Like yeah, I feel like people 

479
00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:36,400
might not react and white the 
quite as favorable of away. 

480
00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:39,300
Yeah, no. 
For sure, for sure. 

481
00:27:39,900 --> 00:27:44,300
So I used to, like, given all of
these, all of the problems with 

482
00:27:45,500 --> 00:27:50,400
How bad humans are at, hang it 
at attention, and like, how, how

483
00:27:50,400 --> 00:27:53,600
we tend to divide our attention 
through all sorts of things 

484
00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:55,900
eating while driving talking 
while driving texting while 

485
00:27:55,900 --> 00:27:57,900
driving calling it. 
So on, you know, even just 

486
00:27:57,900 --> 00:28:03,300
listening to music has a as a 
like non zero impact on your 

487
00:28:03,300 --> 00:28:06,000
likelihood to get into an 
accident like a given, all of 

488
00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:09,700
these things. 
I was in the past extremely 

489
00:28:09,700 --> 00:28:15,200
gung-ho on autonomous vehicles 
and like getting to that. 

490
00:28:15,300 --> 00:28:17,400
World where we don't have to 
worry about humans because 

491
00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:23,800
humans suck be driving. 
I'm less gung-ho now and part of

492
00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:26,300
it, I think is my emotional 
reaction. 

493
00:28:26,300 --> 00:28:29,500
So part of it is about my 
emotional reaction to having one

494
00:28:29,500 --> 00:28:34,000
of these cars and seeing see it 
fail in kind of serious 

495
00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:37,900
situations where I've had to 
take over and like the fear that

496
00:28:37,900 --> 00:28:40,500
comes with that. 
So that makes me really a lot 

497
00:28:40,500 --> 00:28:43,600
less optimistic. 
And the other thing is, I think 

498
00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:47,100
the as I sort of I'm in the 
midst of we're in the midst of 

499
00:28:47,100 --> 00:28:51,400
this AI Revolution, right? 
And I think that one of the sort

500
00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:55,000
of lessons that I come to 
believe, at least for the time 

501
00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:57,400
being and it seems like there's 
more and more evidence to 

502
00:28:57,400 --> 00:29:01,000
support. 
This is just that automation 

503
00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:04,900
seems to be at least with the 
technology that we have now and 

504
00:29:04,900 --> 00:29:07,200
the problems in the the 
environmental problems in the 

505
00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:08,400
world that the physical 
environment. 

506
00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:12,700
It feels like automation is 
better suited to these creative 

507
00:29:12,700 --> 00:29:15,400
generative tasks. 
So you think if you're Like 

508
00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:19,500
chat, gbt and your mid tourney 
and like making things, it's 

509
00:29:19,500 --> 00:29:24,200
better suited to that than the 
sort of manual mechanical tasks.

510
00:29:24,300 --> 00:29:28,000
You see robots, really kind of 
having a hard time, and that's 

511
00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:30,900
true and self-driving cars. 
That's true. 

512
00:29:30,900 --> 00:29:33,400
And I mean, there's obviously 
some exceptions of really cool 

513
00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:36,200
things, but those are in very 
constrained environments, right?

514
00:29:36,200 --> 00:29:39,800
It's not like you see in the, 
the robots running around in the

515
00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:44,800
in the street being humans 
Andreas I guess, right, word. 

516
00:29:45,300 --> 00:29:48,200
I think there's a great tag and 
that's really good tag and 

517
00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:52,700
actually something strongly 
since we recorded in a one of 

518
00:29:52,708 --> 00:29:55,300
the things we touch upon in the 
in the session with the idea of,

519
00:29:55,300 --> 00:30:01,300
you know, when you have a car in
this case that supports you in 

520
00:30:01,300 --> 00:30:05,900
some capacity and you kind of 
become trained to let go of 

521
00:30:05,900 --> 00:30:09,900
certain things because you can 
have like, don't think you need 

522
00:30:09,900 --> 00:30:13,600
it anymore. 
The one thing we talked about 

523
00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:17,400
was the idea of like, if if you 
have cars that are able to, for 

524
00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:22,500
example, when you're on the 
highway you use the self driving

525
00:30:22,500 --> 00:30:27,000
feature but anyone go off the 
highway you oftentimes have to 

526
00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:31,500
disable that or you may be 
disabled it but then forget to 

527
00:30:31,508 --> 00:30:35,100
you, this is which uh-huh. 
Yeah and since we recorded 

528
00:30:35,100 --> 00:30:38,500
actually mentioned this to a 
friend who then told me that 

529
00:30:38,700 --> 00:30:41,800
this happened to his dad, where 
he had gone back from the 

530
00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:46,500
airport with a car that he was a
little bit tired, he had been 

531
00:30:46,500 --> 00:30:48,700
flying and he was on the 
highway. 

532
00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:51,600
Self-driving, turn off the 
highway, it turned off still 

533
00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:56,900
driving but they never really 
fully click in in kind of his 

534
00:30:57,500 --> 00:31:02,400
automaticity for the part of his
behavior and so he drove 

535
00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:05,200
straight off the road. 
No crash the car. 

536
00:31:05,300 --> 00:31:10,000
Luckily was not harmed severely,
ER, you know. 

537
00:31:10,700 --> 00:31:11,200
Yeah. 
Yeah. 

538
00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:15,300
Gaelic relatively unscathed but 
still like that was hundreds and

539
00:31:15,300 --> 00:31:18,400
just because I recent that in 
his like he had turned off 

540
00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:20,500
self-driving. 
But in his mind or in his body 

541
00:31:20,500 --> 00:31:23,600
whatever you call it it was 
still this kind of a kind of 

542
00:31:23,700 --> 00:31:28,200
learned response that okay I'm 
gonna lie let the car turn from 

543
00:31:28,200 --> 00:31:31,100
you now and as your car. 
Yeah don't trust the car. 

544
00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:34,100
Let's go. 
And the second thing I noticed 

545
00:31:34,100 --> 00:31:37,700
myself is I mentioned you know 
I'd be using these kind of quite

546
00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:43,700
new Volvo electronic cars and 
obviously they have like this 

547
00:31:43,700 --> 00:31:50,300
really fancy parking things they
tell you like not You know, with

548
00:31:50,300 --> 00:31:54,400
an occasion of this island, but 
also, you have like, a Bad 

549
00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:56,400
Karma. 
You sometimes have like some for

550
00:31:56,400 --> 00:32:00,200
like over, like are camera. 
I don't know how they do that 

551
00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:04,400
with some form of a algorithm. 
You can like see the car from 

552
00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:06,500
above and you see exactly where 
you going. 

553
00:32:06,800 --> 00:32:09,500
Oh yeah. 
And so, that's really awesome 

554
00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:14,300
and I really enjoy that. 
Then I was driving, my mom's car

555
00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:18,100
who's in a driving, this really 
kind of nice, but a little 

556
00:32:18,100 --> 00:32:20,400
Bolder vault. 
Ford or something. 

557
00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:25,700
And I was really close to just 
ramming into a wall parking 

558
00:32:25,700 --> 00:32:28,600
because I was just waiting for 
that, kind of Eep, Eep, Eep, 

559
00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:32,400
Eep, Eep, ha ha. 
And yeah again you know just 

560
00:32:32,400 --> 00:32:35,300
trusting the car to the parking 
for me. 

561
00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:36,300
Yeah. 
Yeah. 

562
00:32:36,300 --> 00:32:39,500
You if you don't ya you lose 
those skills and when you do 

563
00:32:39,500 --> 00:32:42,000
when you just personally 
quickly, like so quickly, I 

564
00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:44,600
don't know. 
Yeah, well I mean that that been

565
00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:48,200
sort of goes back to an argument
for like move towards fully 

566
00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:50,300
autonomous. 
It's like every car is 

567
00:32:50,300 --> 00:32:53,500
self-driving, right? 
Yeah I think if the technology 

568
00:32:53,500 --> 00:32:55,400
in represent really like that 
kind of nothing. 

569
00:32:55,400 --> 00:32:56,700
I am. 
Yeah. 

570
00:32:57,000 --> 00:32:57,800
Okay. 
With it. 

571
00:32:58,100 --> 00:33:01,300
If we could actually get their 
technology wise, I think that. 

572
00:33:01,900 --> 00:33:03,600
Yeah, humans are just not good 
drivers. 

573
00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:05,300
We shouldn't really be driving. 
Yeah. 

574
00:33:05,500 --> 00:33:09,100
But would you say that like in 
the current state of things, if 

575
00:33:09,100 --> 00:33:14,500
we removed the current You know,
bells and whistles. 

576
00:33:14,500 --> 00:33:18,600
In this regard, I would predict 
that they will be more 

577
00:33:18,800 --> 00:33:23,800
rear-ending because people are 
now texting and driving at all 

578
00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:25,300
this stuff. 
And one of the few things that 

579
00:33:25,300 --> 00:33:28,100
actually prevent someone who's 
texting and driving from 

580
00:33:28,800 --> 00:33:33,100
rear-ending, someone is that 
their car is kind of like almost

581
00:33:33,100 --> 00:33:38,900
breaking it for them or 
alarming, kind of regularly, at 

582
00:33:38,900 --> 00:33:42,500
least in my car, flashing, a 
blue light if you're not looking

583
00:33:42,600 --> 00:33:45,300
Straight ahead. 
So if you're if you have it on 

584
00:33:45,300 --> 00:33:49,300
dry, the car is driving mode, 
then it's really making sure 

585
00:33:49,300 --> 00:33:52,200
that you're paying attention. 
So it's so it's kind of an 

586
00:33:52,200 --> 00:33:56,200
interesting side effect of like 
you're putting it on 

587
00:33:56,200 --> 00:33:59,400
self-driving, but you actually 
have to pay almost more 

588
00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:03,200
attention, like, at least, 
visually with your, your eyes in

589
00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:05,500
that mode. 
Then normally, when no one's 

590
00:34:05,500 --> 00:34:13,199
monitoring your behavior, the 
avoid touching you It is 

591
00:34:13,199 --> 00:34:17,800
interesting that part actually 
because we're the some queries 

592
00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:20,900
you can use kind of like just 
touch the finger on the steering

593
00:34:20,900 --> 00:34:23,400
wheel and that reads those can 
like okay. 

594
00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:24,900
You have your hands on the 
wheel. 

595
00:34:25,199 --> 00:34:27,100
Yeah, yeah. 
And you see some people would 

596
00:34:27,100 --> 00:34:30,199
like one hand on their phone and
then one finger on the steering 

597
00:34:30,199 --> 00:34:33,900
wheel and that's obviously 
shitty accountability. 

598
00:34:36,699 --> 00:34:39,500
But to your point, like if the 
car is able to read, you know, 

599
00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:42,199
not only what your kind of doing
with your hands in terms of like

600
00:34:42,199 --> 00:34:45,000
holding The wheel well, but also
what we're looking, you know, 

601
00:34:45,199 --> 00:34:47,600
maybe then you're safer 
conditions. 

602
00:34:47,600 --> 00:34:49,000
I don't know what you think. 
Yeah. 

603
00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:53,000
I'm looking forward to the day 
that we all just roll around and

604
00:34:53,400 --> 00:34:55,699
spaceship, sort of Fifth Element
style. 

605
00:34:55,800 --> 00:34:59,500
Yeah, that's what I'm looking 
forward to any day now. 

606
00:35:00,500 --> 00:35:01,700
Yeah. 
What do you think about? 

607
00:35:01,700 --> 00:35:05,000
Like so I was kind of making 
lists of different vehicles and 

608
00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:07,800
thinking about it to what degree
they're autonomous these days. 

609
00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:11,300
And one of the things that was 
thinking of was like, oh, I 

610
00:35:11,300 --> 00:35:14,400
never want this to be autonomous
was airplanes been realizing 

611
00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:18,000
that, of course, there are, they
are mostly autonomously space. 

612
00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:22,700
As far as I know the pilot 
mainly kind of You know, 

613
00:35:22,700 --> 00:35:26,700
obviously, is there to set 
Direction and review things, but

614
00:35:26,900 --> 00:35:29,300
is there to kind of hold when 
landing? 

615
00:35:29,300 --> 00:35:32,600
And when kind of taking off, 
would you want to have me? 

616
00:35:32,600 --> 00:35:36,200
That kind of car of like you 
have, like one task with the car

617
00:35:36,200 --> 00:35:39,600
or you would use one to have 
like, no tasks, like just, you 

618
00:35:39,600 --> 00:35:43,600
know, do it all for me. 
I think if it can do it all. 

619
00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:46,900
Well, I think that's better than
having to do some parts. 

620
00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:49,900
Yeah, yeah, yeah. 
I want to hang out at the 

621
00:35:49,900 --> 00:35:51,200
jacuzzi. 
Drinking, champagne. 

622
00:35:51,200 --> 00:35:53,500
In the back of the The car while
the car is driving, I don't want

623
00:35:53,500 --> 00:35:57,600
to have to like both be a driver
and the contract like this hand 

624
00:35:57,600 --> 00:36:01,300
off that responsibility, that's 
what I want. 

625
00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:07,500
Like my ideal. 
Okay, so we'll end up. 

626
00:36:07,500 --> 00:36:10,300
So now with two predictions I'll
let you make prediction on 

627
00:36:10,300 --> 00:36:13,600
autonomous vehicles. 
When will we see fully 

628
00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:17,700
autonomous cities? 
When we'll see that in the u.s. 

629
00:36:18,900 --> 00:36:22,200
you went with when not if fully 
Thomas. 

630
00:36:22,200 --> 00:36:25,300
Get like a long time. 
Long time. 

631
00:36:26,900 --> 00:36:28,400
I hesitated you. 
I told you. 

632
00:36:28,400 --> 00:36:30,800
I'm not making predictions. 
Here, you are. 

633
00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:32,200
Forcing, I do not. 
Come on. 

634
00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:35,500
It's 2023. 
Everything happens faster than 

635
00:36:35,500 --> 00:36:41,000
you'd think like not before 20. 
Ash. 

636
00:36:41,000 --> 00:36:43,900
I'm going to say 2050 and I 
still am not sure I said, right 

637
00:36:43,900 --> 00:36:46,900
actually - well. 
Yeah, I am not really sure 

638
00:36:46,900 --> 00:36:48,700
though. 
That's probably, that's okay. 

639
00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:51,900
150 gate. 
My prediction will be Be 

640
00:36:52,200 --> 00:36:56,500
unrelated to. 
Autonomous vehicles will be 

641
00:36:56,500 --> 00:36:59,200
about succession. 
So when we recording this 

642
00:36:59,200 --> 00:37:06,000
episode it's I guess a few days 
before the final finale of the 

643
00:37:06,000 --> 00:37:08,800
show of the season for and of 
the show as a whole. 

644
00:37:09,300 --> 00:37:12,000
And so if you're listening to 
this it's already come out by 

645
00:37:12,000 --> 00:37:15,300
the time, this airs, if you 
haven't listened to episode 9, I

646
00:37:15,300 --> 00:37:18,200
guess. 
I will say this could be a 

647
00:37:18,207 --> 00:37:19,700
little bit of a spoiler, my 
prediction. 

648
00:37:19,900 --> 00:37:24,400
So, you know warning, but my 
prediction for the finale of 

649
00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:29,100
succession is Greg, Greg is 
going to take the throne, he's 

650
00:37:29,100 --> 00:37:32,400
going to be madsen's American 
CEO. 

651
00:37:32,400 --> 00:37:36,000
So I'm going with the My 
prediction. 

652
00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:39,600
I don't know if this makes sense
to you in any way Eileen, but 

653
00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:42,300
but that's, that's where I think
it's gonna be the sister. 

654
00:37:42,300 --> 00:37:43,900
I think the sisters just, you 
know. 

655
00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:47,100
Okay. 
So if I just add that I've never

656
00:37:47,100 --> 00:37:50,100
seen succession. 
Okay. 

657
00:37:50,100 --> 00:37:53,000
We'll see. 
But this was fun. 

658
00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:56,200
Really fun episode. 
Thank you, Ellen for another 

659
00:37:56,600 --> 00:37:58,800
funded type. 
Yeah, yeah, it was great. 

660
00:37:59,000 --> 00:38:00,700
Yeah. 
And as always, if you have any 

661
00:38:01,000 --> 00:38:04,100
input your questions for us, 
Hope cast that have a weekly 

662
00:38:04,300 --> 00:38:07,100
that Cam, see you next 
Wednesday. 

663
00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:11,900
Time to wrap up another episode 
of the behavioral design 

664
00:38:11,900 --> 00:38:14,400
podcast. 
We hope you enjoyed the show. 

665
00:38:14,800 --> 00:38:19,600
Oh, and I am an AI. 
Yeah, welcome to uncanny valley 

666
00:38:20,100 --> 00:38:21,800
Sam. 
And Elaine told me this is going

667
00:38:21,800 --> 00:38:25,100
to be an awesome season, so make
sure to subscribe and help 

668
00:38:25,100 --> 00:38:28,300
spread the word maybe share the 
podcast with a colleague or 

669
00:38:28,300 --> 00:38:31,200
friend. 
And if you want to show us some 

670
00:38:31,200 --> 00:38:35,500
extra love head over to Habit 
weekly come and In our community

671
00:38:35,800 --> 00:38:38,500
Pro members get access to a 
wealth of resources in the 

672
00:38:38,500 --> 00:38:40,900
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practitioners. 

673
00:38:41,100 --> 00:38:43,900
It's a great way to support the 
podcast and deepen. 

674
00:38:43,900 --> 00:38:47,400
Your understanding of Behavioral
design are fantastic. 

675
00:38:47,400 --> 00:38:51,000
Show music is Murgatroyd by the 
wonderful Dave Pizarro and 

676
00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:52,900
thanks to the team at Orange 
wall media. 

677
00:38:52,900 --> 00:38:56,200
For the production of this 
episode for questions or ideas 

678
00:38:56,200 --> 00:39:00,700
for future episodes, email 
podcast at habit weekly.com, 

679
00:39:00,900 --> 00:39:04,800
we'd love to hear from you. 
Thanks again for listening See 

680
00:39:04,800 --> 00:39:05,500
you next time.