1 00:00:09,760 --> 00:00:11,960 Welcome to the Behavioral Design Podcast. 2 00:00:12,280 --> 00:00:17,440 I'm one Co host, Samuel Salser, with my other Co host, Eileen 3 00:00:17,440 --> 00:00:18,560 Holtworth. Hey, Eileen. 4 00:00:18,880 --> 00:00:21,120 Hi, that's me. Yeah. 5 00:00:21,160 --> 00:00:26,320 And we're here with a product deep dive talking about pumpkin 6 00:00:26,320 --> 00:00:31,400 lattes. Sam, it's Pumpkin Spice Latte. 7 00:00:33,800 --> 00:00:38,480 OK, it's still not clear that was a fate and I I screwed up as 8 00:00:38,480 --> 00:00:40,640 well. So that was not the plan. 9 00:00:40,640 --> 00:00:42,040 We're actually talking about something different. 10 00:00:42,320 --> 00:00:47,200 We're talking about calendars today, and to talk about that, I 11 00:00:47,200 --> 00:00:50,200 want to 1st ask you, Eileen, how do you manage your time? 12 00:00:50,680 --> 00:00:54,360 Yeah, so first calendar is much more exciting than the pumpkin 13 00:00:54,400 --> 00:00:57,280 spice latte. Some might disagree, but OK, 14 00:00:57,320 --> 00:00:59,640 sure. Sure, sure. 15 00:00:59,640 --> 00:01:01,840 I don't. I don't know any of those 16 00:01:01,840 --> 00:01:04,400 people. How do I manage my time? 17 00:01:04,560 --> 00:01:09,920 I would say too much. Mostly there's like a particular 18 00:01:09,920 --> 00:01:13,120 irony with time management, where if you spend too much of 19 00:01:13,120 --> 00:01:15,680 your time. Managing your time and 20 00:01:15,680 --> 00:01:18,320 interacting with your calendar and and so on you're actually 21 00:01:18,640 --> 00:01:22,360 poorly managing your time and so there's this like definite 22 00:01:22,360 --> 00:01:26,120 backfire and I think that in general I'm I think I'm pretty 23 00:01:26,120 --> 00:01:31,160 good at managing my time but I I do tend towards over managing in 24 00:01:31,160 --> 00:01:34,360 a a sort of unhealthy way. I really like. 25 00:01:34,520 --> 00:01:38,640 I have some bad habits I'm sure what is I am. 26 00:01:38,800 --> 00:01:41,560 I want to dive living here a little bit further, so when you 27 00:01:41,560 --> 00:01:46,200 feel like you steps, step back and you're like, oh, what have I 28 00:01:46,200 --> 00:01:47,600 done? Like why did I spend so much 29 00:01:47,600 --> 00:01:50,400 time obsessing about this thing? What have you been doing? 30 00:01:50,400 --> 00:01:51,800 Have you been like planning something? 31 00:01:51,800 --> 00:01:55,120 Have you been like organizing? Like where do you feel like the 32 00:01:55,120 --> 00:01:59,760 time is being overly spent? Yeah, I no like I think planning 33 00:01:59,760 --> 00:02:03,320 and organizing that's good. I think I'm in a healthy space 34 00:02:03,320 --> 00:02:05,160 there. I think that the sort of. 35 00:02:05,760 --> 00:02:09,000 The day-to-day interaction with my calendar, I feel like there's 36 00:02:09,000 --> 00:02:14,040 a little bit of an obsession that I have there where I do I 37 00:02:14,040 --> 00:02:17,400 it's close to time tracking really rather than planning 38 00:02:17,400 --> 00:02:22,120 because I will in sort of after the fact, you know, some some 39 00:02:22,120 --> 00:02:25,520 event has happened and you know, maybe I didn't do exactly what I 40 00:02:25,520 --> 00:02:27,280 said I was going to do. I'll go back. 41 00:02:27,720 --> 00:02:31,600 And correct the record, which is like, you know, as if it matters 42 00:02:31,600 --> 00:02:36,040 that that I spent 15 more minutes on task A before 43 00:02:36,040 --> 00:02:38,640 switching to task B. Like nobody cares at all. 44 00:02:38,640 --> 00:02:42,520 And like even I don't use that information, it's not there's 45 00:02:42,960 --> 00:02:45,400 there's no use for it. But I still I have this. 46 00:02:46,000 --> 00:02:50,120 Compulsion is sort of like a borderline OCD tendency where I 47 00:02:50,120 --> 00:02:53,400 would just like, I have to like the record has to be right. 48 00:02:53,800 --> 00:02:56,400 Who knows, maybe in five years I'll want to know, like, what 49 00:02:56,400 --> 00:03:02,600 was I doing at, you know, 10:13 AM on, like on that Thursday? 50 00:03:03,000 --> 00:03:06,040 No, it's it's totally ridiculous and I know it's a problem. 51 00:03:06,360 --> 00:03:09,040 Well, the first thing that came to my head when I say that was 52 00:03:09,800 --> 00:03:12,360 that you had watched too much, you know, true crime. 53 00:03:12,480 --> 00:03:16,160 And you know, they always ask you like, what did you do 54 00:03:16,400 --> 00:03:18,240 between these hours On this date? 55 00:03:18,760 --> 00:03:21,720 And you'll be able to say like specifically to the minute you. 56 00:03:21,800 --> 00:03:25,680 Know I will know with 100% confidence what e-mail I was 57 00:03:25,680 --> 00:03:31,640 sending at that minute. OK yeah that that's interesting. 58 00:03:31,760 --> 00:03:35,840 Have you fallen down like 1 rabbit hole that I find myself 59 00:03:35,960 --> 00:03:40,480 when it comes to time is that I'm looking for kind of tools to 60 00:03:40,480 --> 00:03:46,520 solve time management for me. So like I've been desperately 61 00:03:46,520 --> 00:03:51,400 trying to kind of find this kind of magic time management tools, 62 00:03:51,400 --> 00:03:53,160 whether that's like time tracking tools like something 63 00:03:53,160 --> 00:03:55,040 like toggle or something like this. 64 00:03:55,560 --> 00:03:58,400 That kind of effectively where you can like start a timer or 65 00:03:58,400 --> 00:04:02,640 start something and then you save it and you can tag it or 66 00:04:03,080 --> 00:04:05,840 organise it by based on projects or so on and sync it through 67 00:04:05,840 --> 00:04:12,320 your calendar or having like some calendar that's like Cron 68 00:04:12,360 --> 00:04:17,040 or I think is one of Amy or other things like this. 69 00:04:18,160 --> 00:04:24,000 I feel like I still haven't really found a tool to solve the 70 00:04:24,000 --> 00:04:28,880 problems and I think we we spoke about this if few times in the 71 00:04:28,880 --> 00:04:30,480 past. I think we're we're quick to 72 00:04:30,480 --> 00:04:32,400 look for these kind of tools to solve the problem. 73 00:04:32,680 --> 00:04:36,120 But do you do you use multiple calendars or multiple things? 74 00:04:36,120 --> 00:04:40,200 Or or are you use kind of doing things in a very simple way? 75 00:04:40,520 --> 00:04:44,080 Yeah, but overdoing it, yeah. I would say so. 76 00:04:44,080 --> 00:04:48,640 I've I have tried some tools like Reclaim, I've tried with my 77 00:04:48,640 --> 00:04:50,480 calendar, it really did not stick. 78 00:04:50,920 --> 00:04:55,120 It just it felt like I don't. Just an extra, you know, more 79 00:04:55,560 --> 00:04:59,880 planning and organizing whereas my previous workflow. 80 00:05:00,480 --> 00:05:03,600 It's you know maybe not perfect but it didn't add these extra 81 00:05:03,600 --> 00:05:08,000 layers of admin where as I felt like that and even just like 82 00:05:08,000 --> 00:05:12,000 checking another tool to me feels like that is an extra work 83 00:05:12,040 --> 00:05:14,520 and that that time has to be accounted for too. 84 00:05:14,920 --> 00:05:18,840 And I've I I've tried other sort of like scheduling assistants, 85 00:05:19,280 --> 00:05:23,880 basically like AI schedulers and I've I've I there was a time 86 00:05:23,880 --> 00:05:27,880 when I used Calendly to help with scheduling quite a bit. 87 00:05:28,360 --> 00:05:33,640 I found that I. That I more recently haven't 88 00:05:33,640 --> 00:05:37,360 wanted to use it just because it I want to have more control over 89 00:05:37,360 --> 00:05:41,440 my time and be able to say to like really give permission for 90 00:05:41,440 --> 00:05:44,480 other people taking up my time rather than just letting people 91 00:05:44,480 --> 00:05:46,920 sign up whenever they want. And I find that I'm too 92 00:05:46,920 --> 00:05:49,840 scheduled to to use it these days. 93 00:05:50,080 --> 00:05:53,240 But in general, like there was a time when it when it worked 94 00:05:53,240 --> 00:05:55,400 really well. I think if your schedule is not. 95 00:05:55,840 --> 00:05:59,200 You know, quite as full. It can be extremely convenient 96 00:05:59,200 --> 00:06:02,720 to have other people just sign up for a time anytime. 97 00:06:03,120 --> 00:06:05,240 I can definitely relate. Yeah. 98 00:06:05,240 --> 00:06:07,280 I think as as we kind of illustrated, there's a lot of 99 00:06:07,280 --> 00:06:10,760 interesting components to managing time, managing our 100 00:06:10,760 --> 00:06:14,960 calendar and that's what we're kind of going to try to dive 101 00:06:14,960 --> 00:06:17,760 into today. And maybe could you say the same 102 00:06:17,760 --> 00:06:22,560 with Linda Babcock recap? I'm sorry because we spoke to 103 00:06:22,560 --> 00:06:26,720 her episode, came out a week before this one and maybe you 104 00:06:26,720 --> 00:06:29,360 can set the scene of of that plus any other. 105 00:06:30,600 --> 00:06:32,720 I think we have had some. I don't know. 106 00:06:32,720 --> 00:06:34,800 I feel like it comes up a few times. 107 00:06:35,080 --> 00:06:37,080 Yeah, I mean time is everything, right. 108 00:06:37,080 --> 00:06:40,760 So we time is sort of one of those immortal topics that is 109 00:06:40,760 --> 00:06:44,160 always coming up again and again with Linda Babcock we talked 110 00:06:44,160 --> 00:06:47,960 about you know specifically with her expertise in non promotable 111 00:06:47,960 --> 00:06:50,960 tasks and promotable tasks and that ratio between them 112 00:06:51,280 --> 00:06:55,240 basically how you can you can solve that problem or or one way 113 00:06:55,240 --> 00:06:57,240 of solving. The problem of having too many 114 00:06:57,240 --> 00:07:00,360 promotable tasks by using your calendar as a tool. 115 00:07:00,360 --> 00:07:04,160 And so she we came up with with some ideas that you'll you'll 116 00:07:04,160 --> 00:07:06,520 have to listen to the the whole episode for all of them. 117 00:07:06,520 --> 00:07:09,880 But essentially you know you could color code to to 118 00:07:09,880 --> 00:07:13,720 categorize your your NPTS versus your PTS. 119 00:07:13,720 --> 00:07:17,760 Your calendar could actually take an another step further and 120 00:07:17,760 --> 00:07:21,880 stop you if you if you, you know, exceed some threshold of 121 00:07:21,880 --> 00:07:25,480 non promotable tasks you know, stop you and say like no, you've 122 00:07:25,480 --> 00:07:26,960 done. Too much you need to get back to 123 00:07:26,960 --> 00:07:29,880 your actual job. But essentially the idea behind 124 00:07:29,880 --> 00:07:33,600 that was just like to get to this idea of a healthy work work 125 00:07:33,600 --> 00:07:35,680 balance. You just need to plan out your 126 00:07:35,680 --> 00:07:40,440 time and understand you know how much of of your time is going to 127 00:07:40,440 --> 00:07:44,360 these these tasks that further your career versus versus not. 128 00:07:44,720 --> 00:07:47,920 And and I actually think that I, I can't remember if we if we 129 00:07:47,920 --> 00:07:49,600 talked about this at the time but there's. 130 00:07:50,080 --> 00:07:53,040 A way to do this, you know, maybe once, right? 131 00:07:53,040 --> 00:07:56,040 You don't have to do this as a continual process. 132 00:07:56,040 --> 00:08:00,240 You can just right? Yeah, I do some like understand 133 00:08:00,240 --> 00:08:02,400 where you are, do some reflection and then take some 134 00:08:02,400 --> 00:08:06,680 other steps that aren't as heavy-handed as, as, you know, 135 00:08:06,680 --> 00:08:09,040 tracking every single minute of your day. 136 00:08:09,600 --> 00:08:12,200 Yeah, no, I I think that's that's true. 137 00:08:12,200 --> 00:08:16,640 And so with your kind of meticulous tracking of your 138 00:08:16,760 --> 00:08:20,720 time, do you just make sure that it accurate actually represents 139 00:08:20,720 --> 00:08:23,200 what you did? Or do you also like have tags 140 00:08:23,200 --> 00:08:26,480 for things like I I did something non promotable versus 141 00:08:26,520 --> 00:08:29,040 promotable for example? Or how far do you go? 142 00:08:29,440 --> 00:08:31,800 Have I done this personally? No, absolutely not. 143 00:08:31,960 --> 00:08:33,559 No. And I and I haven't done any, 144 00:08:33,799 --> 00:08:37,120 any math at all, any adding up of, you know, how much time am I 145 00:08:37,120 --> 00:08:39,960 spending on this versus that, Like like nothing actually 146 00:08:39,960 --> 00:08:43,240 helpful. You can imagine a version of 147 00:08:43,240 --> 00:08:45,080 this where you learn from your tracking. 148 00:08:45,200 --> 00:08:49,080 That's not where I am currently. But yeah, you could do that. 149 00:08:49,520 --> 00:08:52,960 Would it actually help you? Like I think that's an exercise 150 00:08:53,040 --> 00:08:56,440 worth going through is if you knew because you you know you 151 00:08:56,440 --> 00:08:59,600 probably have a pretty vague idea of how if you're spending 152 00:08:59,600 --> 00:09:03,520 too much time on a a certain kind of thing, if you knew the 153 00:09:03,840 --> 00:09:08,200 the exact numbers, would that be enough to actually help you 154 00:09:08,200 --> 00:09:12,120 focus on the things that matter? I'm not really convinced that 155 00:09:12,400 --> 00:09:14,280 that that that's the right intervention. 156 00:09:14,520 --> 00:09:16,400 Yeah, yeah. It's it's only something that 157 00:09:16,760 --> 00:09:19,600 could potentially be more valuable if it's like the 158 00:09:19,600 --> 00:09:23,760 manager of the team has kind of some general idea of kind of how 159 00:09:24,120 --> 00:09:27,440 people are being asked to contribute rather than like the 160 00:09:27,440 --> 00:09:29,400 people themselves and. Yeah. 161 00:09:29,840 --> 00:09:34,280 But any any time that managers have access to that level of 162 00:09:34,280 --> 00:09:37,720 information, I start to worry that's true. 163 00:09:37,880 --> 00:09:41,680 That is true. But in any other guests that we 164 00:09:41,680 --> 00:09:45,320 had before that we should provide any. 165 00:09:45,440 --> 00:09:49,040 Yeah, I mean, certainly the one, the one that is that comes to 166 00:09:49,040 --> 00:09:51,160 mind most easily is Ashley Willens, right? 167 00:09:51,160 --> 00:09:54,760 She studies time and how to spend it more wisely. 168 00:09:54,760 --> 00:09:57,960 So she we talked a ton about different strategies for 169 00:09:58,200 --> 00:10:02,600 spending time more effectively. One of them I definitely made me 170 00:10:02,600 --> 00:10:06,480 feel proud of myself for for doing is essentially outsourcing 171 00:10:06,760 --> 00:10:09,720 different kinds of the I don't know what you would call other 172 00:10:09,720 --> 00:10:13,200 than chores, right? Like yard work, cleaning, even 173 00:10:13,440 --> 00:10:16,640 meal prep sometimes. Times basically the things that 174 00:10:16,640 --> 00:10:23,320 are not that don't feel like are bringing you that joy to borrow 175 00:10:23,320 --> 00:10:27,520 from from Someone Like You know just pay someone else to do 176 00:10:27,520 --> 00:10:30,720 that. Because you know if if you can't 177 00:10:30,720 --> 00:10:34,120 afford it then that is a a very good use of money. 178 00:10:34,360 --> 00:10:38,800 I also block time for Deep work, like schedule time to do that or 179 00:10:38,800 --> 00:10:40,880 go through to do. You're doing some really good 180 00:10:40,920 --> 00:10:42,520 things there, yeah. Yeah. 181 00:10:42,520 --> 00:10:46,280 I mean, there is some intentionality that I think goes 182 00:10:46,280 --> 00:10:50,040 into my calendar for sure. But in terms of tagging all the 183 00:10:50,040 --> 00:10:52,240 tasks. Oh my gosh, yeah, yeah. 184 00:10:53,600 --> 00:10:56,680 Trying to stay away from that. That's very. 185 00:10:56,680 --> 00:10:59,600 In terms of doing chores, I remember my my uncle, he had 186 00:10:59,600 --> 00:11:04,200 this joke about whenever you're doing kind of like housework or 187 00:11:04,200 --> 00:11:06,120 yard work, you're stealing from a handyman. 188 00:11:06,480 --> 00:11:10,560 It was his kind of thing. It's like basically like you 189 00:11:10,640 --> 00:11:13,680 you're taking money from someone who could, you know, who's been 190 00:11:13,680 --> 00:11:17,720 trained to do it and so. Absolutely, because you're not 191 00:11:17,760 --> 00:11:21,320 doing it well. When I'm pruning the fruit 192 00:11:21,320 --> 00:11:26,440 trees, like I'm not helping the trees, that's, that's for sure. 193 00:11:26,600 --> 00:11:30,120 That's that's a professional. Yeah, I know. 194 00:11:30,120 --> 00:11:35,240 I do think I I think she has some great advice in her as well 195 00:11:35,840 --> 00:11:39,480 actually and that was a great conversation with her and 196 00:11:39,480 --> 00:11:43,160 similar to you, I think the deep work part is the thing that I 197 00:11:43,160 --> 00:11:46,080 personally have been able to sustain quite well for for a few 198 00:11:46,080 --> 00:11:48,600 years and that definitely makes a difference. 199 00:11:49,480 --> 00:11:51,120 Nice. Do we feel like we have kind of 200 00:11:51,320 --> 00:11:55,400 what we need to jump into exploring calendars a bit more 201 00:11:55,400 --> 00:11:58,960 and and kind of how we could ourself improve them? 202 00:11:59,680 --> 00:12:01,960 Absolutely, Absolutely I and you know. 203 00:12:03,000 --> 00:12:06,320 We both think a lot about about time and our calendars and I 204 00:12:06,320 --> 00:12:10,440 think that in general there there's sort of two directions 205 00:12:10,440 --> 00:12:13,920 that you can take the like how to improve the calendar as a 206 00:12:13,920 --> 00:12:17,400 product, right. You can think of like doing more 207 00:12:17,400 --> 00:12:21,800 and better calendar so you know really like getting into the the 208 00:12:21,800 --> 00:12:24,320 tagging and like making things automatic and so on. 209 00:12:24,520 --> 00:12:26,960 Or you can think about like maybe this is not the most 210 00:12:26,960 --> 00:12:29,280 healthy direction maybe we should go towards the the less 211 00:12:29,320 --> 00:12:32,240 like the less calendar version and but but maybe we can like 212 00:12:32,320 --> 00:12:34,360 take a little. A little bit of a deep dive into 213 00:12:34,520 --> 00:12:37,320 into both of these strategies. What do you think? 214 00:12:38,200 --> 00:12:40,560 Yeah, I love that. And then maybe we can end up 215 00:12:40,560 --> 00:12:43,680 with some form of comparable, you know, obviously with all of 216 00:12:43,680 --> 00:12:47,360 our interventions that we kind of explore, the truth is that 217 00:12:47,360 --> 00:12:50,640 they depend on the context of the person who's using them. 218 00:12:50,640 --> 00:12:55,880 And very much the likely truth here is that some people will 219 00:12:55,880 --> 00:12:59,000 love a more, more, more more calendar. 220 00:12:59,800 --> 00:13:00,440 Yeah. Absolutely. 221 00:13:00,760 --> 00:13:03,760 More, more whatever. And some people would would like 222 00:13:03,760 --> 00:13:05,920 the the more scaled down version. 223 00:13:06,280 --> 00:13:09,400 But, but I think The funny thing about this is you, you see 224 00:13:09,400 --> 00:13:13,440 people who are high in in the trade of planfulness, right? 225 00:13:13,440 --> 00:13:15,720 And those are the people who tend to be the ones who are 226 00:13:15,920 --> 00:13:19,320 scheduling and you know, using their calendars maybe too 227 00:13:19,320 --> 00:13:21,160 heavily. But then you look at the people 228 00:13:21,160 --> 00:13:24,080 who are low in planfulness, and those are the people that really 229 00:13:24,080 --> 00:13:27,160 could use more planning, and they would. 230 00:13:27,240 --> 00:13:30,280 With the benefits of of being more organized and this, this 231 00:13:30,280 --> 00:13:33,160 sort of ties to all the benefits of being high in 232 00:13:33,160 --> 00:13:36,520 conscientiousness and and so on. But so, so I think when you 233 00:13:36,520 --> 00:13:40,240 think of individual differences in this space and how 234 00:13:40,480 --> 00:13:42,920 personality falls into it, sometimes the people who are 235 00:13:42,920 --> 00:13:45,840 more drawn to one solution are actually not the ones who need 236 00:13:45,840 --> 00:13:47,480 it the most. Yeah. 237 00:13:47,880 --> 00:13:52,840 And I feel like that's something potentially very much overlooked 238 00:13:52,960 --> 00:13:55,640 in in this category specifically with calendars because it's like 239 00:13:56,880 --> 00:14:01,440 a lot of the calendars that are made are probably made for these 240 00:14:01,440 --> 00:14:06,040 power users that are like craving you know the extreme 241 00:14:06,040 --> 00:14:09,040 plan for us. And then the majority of people 242 00:14:09,120 --> 00:14:12,720 that are just kind of wanting to get by basically, but do so a 243 00:14:12,720 --> 00:14:14,680 little more efficiently and and more effectively. 244 00:14:15,400 --> 00:14:19,680 I don't want to like spend their life kind of like it doesn't 245 00:14:19,680 --> 00:14:22,280 have that strong pull towards that kind of part. 246 00:14:22,760 --> 00:14:24,320 Yeah, doing so that they might be. 247 00:14:24,320 --> 00:14:25,400 Understood. I'd love to know what the 248 00:14:25,400 --> 00:14:29,760 distribution is of of like how people use their calendars. 249 00:14:29,880 --> 00:14:33,440 I'm sure someone could find that data somewhere, but I yeah, it 250 00:14:33,440 --> 00:14:36,160 it's hard to know. I imagine most people to your 251 00:14:36,160 --> 00:14:39,000 point are not over engineering their lives with their 252 00:14:39,000 --> 00:14:41,120 calendars. Most people have a lot of gaps 253 00:14:41,120 --> 00:14:44,480 and like, you know, maybe they have the birthday party on their 254 00:14:44,480 --> 00:14:46,800 calendar, they have the essential meetings, but they're 255 00:14:46,800 --> 00:14:50,240 not, you know, they're not scheduling every little thing 256 00:14:50,240 --> 00:14:52,960 for sure, Yeah. Cool. 257 00:14:52,960 --> 00:14:56,280 OK, so yeah, what do you think? If we were to start with this, 258 00:14:56,440 --> 00:15:01,520 this first direction of of more better calendar, what are some 259 00:15:01,520 --> 00:15:04,880 ways that we could we could solve for that? 260 00:15:05,440 --> 00:15:08,920 Yeah, I guess, yeah, where to start there? 261 00:15:08,920 --> 00:15:11,200 I think there's a lot of things that could be done. 262 00:15:11,800 --> 00:15:18,000 I do think that you mentioned reclaim before and I would say 263 00:15:18,280 --> 00:15:19,920 it might not be perfect for everyone. 264 00:15:20,120 --> 00:15:24,560 But to explain what reclaim tries to do is basically you 265 00:15:24,560 --> 00:15:28,040 kind of gives you give reclaim certain things that you want to 266 00:15:28,040 --> 00:15:31,120 do on a regular basis, maybe that's daily or weekly and so 267 00:15:31,120 --> 00:15:35,320 on. And it kind of puts that into 268 00:15:35,320 --> 00:15:38,320 your calendar and if you add something else in there, it's 269 00:15:38,320 --> 00:15:40,440 quite flexible. So it's kind of like you might 270 00:15:40,440 --> 00:15:43,160 say that you won't have lunch sometime between 12:00 and 2:00 271 00:15:43,160 --> 00:15:47,360 PM and then lunch should be between 30 and 45 minutes. 272 00:15:47,760 --> 00:15:51,240 And then it's going to kind of find a space for your lunch. 273 00:15:51,240 --> 00:15:55,560 But it kind of notices if something happens to kind of 274 00:15:55,560 --> 00:16:00,280 exceed your first half of that time like between 12:00 and 1:00 275 00:16:00,480 --> 00:16:04,120 and then moves your lunch and make sure that you have kind of 276 00:16:04,120 --> 00:16:07,320 some time for lunch in your calendar and so. 277 00:16:07,520 --> 00:16:09,640 But what if you schedule over your whole lunch? 278 00:16:09,840 --> 00:16:12,920 Then what does it do? What's lunch at 4:00 PM, like 279 00:16:13,960 --> 00:16:15,960 no. Then I think it's just I think 280 00:16:15,960 --> 00:16:18,360 it's just keeps lunch there but you become like double booked 281 00:16:18,360 --> 00:16:22,800 effectively if I remember weekly I think you can and this is a 282 00:16:22,800 --> 00:16:25,160 little bit of tricky part where reclaim is not perfect because 283 00:16:25,160 --> 00:16:27,200 it kind of required a little bit of over engineering like you 284 00:16:27,200 --> 00:16:31,480 could like have four or five levels of how hardcore you want 285 00:16:31,480 --> 00:16:35,720 to keep a certain type of event. So I think if you have like 286 00:16:35,720 --> 00:16:39,680 something like level like the highest level, it's going to 287 00:16:39,920 --> 00:16:42,800 stay there whatever you do. But if you have a lower level, 288 00:16:42,800 --> 00:16:46,000 it's going to be moved to like 4:00 PM or something but it. 289 00:16:46,080 --> 00:16:48,240 Doesn't block a meeting from being scheduled. 290 00:16:48,560 --> 00:16:51,200 It will still let you do that and just say you have a meeting 291 00:16:51,240 --> 00:16:53,960 and it could depends on it depends on what you use and how 292 00:16:53,960 --> 00:16:56,520 you set it up. So, so basically if you use 293 00:16:56,520 --> 00:16:58,720 Calendly it would block like because it wouldn't show that 294 00:16:59,000 --> 00:17:01,120 you have something in the way and so on. 295 00:17:01,480 --> 00:17:04,079 But obviously if you want to manually add a meeting, it's 296 00:17:04,119 --> 00:17:09,200 nothing like slap away your hand, stop it. 297 00:17:11,119 --> 00:17:14,960 So So what I want to come to there is that I do think what I 298 00:17:14,960 --> 00:17:18,720 really appreciated with Reclaim is basically two things like one 299 00:17:18,720 --> 00:17:22,319 is that it adds automatically breathing space after all of my 300 00:17:22,599 --> 00:17:25,920 meetings that has some form of like a call in them. 301 00:17:26,400 --> 00:17:29,440 So effectively it's called like decompress or something I think 302 00:17:29,440 --> 00:17:33,320 in the in the calendar settings. And so it adds like 10 minutes 303 00:17:33,320 --> 00:17:39,080 afterwards as a bumper, like as an extra thing and I've noticed 304 00:17:39,080 --> 00:17:42,320 that's been really useful to is ensuring that I'm unlikely to 305 00:17:42,320 --> 00:17:46,480 have like back-to-back to back. Meetings or something And how 306 00:17:47,320 --> 00:17:48,800 how does that work with the timing? 307 00:17:48,880 --> 00:17:52,320 Because I'm, I'm thinking of a a way that some people do this is 308 00:17:52,360 --> 00:17:54,000 by scheduling shorter meetings, right? 309 00:17:54,000 --> 00:17:59,680 So you have a meeting from you know. 205 to to 2:30 and then 310 00:17:59,680 --> 00:18:03,320 you have those 5 minutes there. But if you have your meeting 311 00:18:03,320 --> 00:18:06,520 from 2:00 to 2:30 and then you have another, you know the next 312 00:18:06,520 --> 00:18:09,960 person wants to start their meeting at 2:30. 313 00:18:09,960 --> 00:18:11,480 But you have a buffer. Do they? 314 00:18:12,400 --> 00:18:15,920 Does it not let them schedule something until 2:35? 315 00:18:15,920 --> 00:18:19,960 Or how does the buffering interact with the actual times 316 00:18:19,960 --> 00:18:23,120 that you're available? Yeah, so just basically whenever 317 00:18:23,120 --> 00:18:26,480 you schedule an event is add second event afterwards that 318 00:18:26,480 --> 00:18:29,040 lasts for let's say 5 minutes, 10 minutes, 15 minutes depending 319 00:18:29,040 --> 00:18:32,960 how how you set it up. And then if you happen to have 320 00:18:32,960 --> 00:18:35,840 some like Calendly or something else, it will just look like 321 00:18:35,840 --> 00:18:38,520 you're then booked for those extra 15 minutes as well. 322 00:18:38,520 --> 00:18:41,960 And so you'll be forced to again like you said, you could also in 323 00:18:41,960 --> 00:18:45,760 Calendly within that setting have a similar setup so that you 324 00:18:45,760 --> 00:18:50,080 can have say that you know, two people can't look back-to-back. 325 00:18:50,400 --> 00:18:53,640 So it's a very similar thing in some ways in terms of like kind 326 00:18:53,640 --> 00:18:57,320 of in a way defaulting a breathing space within your in 327 00:18:57,320 --> 00:19:01,720 your day. And so I do think any type of 328 00:19:01,720 --> 00:19:07,640 calendar tool that supports kind of in a way defaulting you to 329 00:19:07,640 --> 00:19:10,480 not be having back-to-back meetings for example is doing 330 00:19:10,480 --> 00:19:13,080 something good. So that that I think will be 331 00:19:13,080 --> 00:19:16,440 like the first thing that I think has there's a good element 332 00:19:16,440 --> 00:19:20,560 of that in any good calendar tool or calendar solution is 333 00:19:20,560 --> 00:19:24,880 kind of like forcing you or making it really hard for you to 334 00:19:24,880 --> 00:19:26,520 schedule these back-to-back meetings. 335 00:19:26,880 --> 00:19:28,320 Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. 336 00:19:28,320 --> 00:19:34,880 And and I I'm sure there's a a small barrier of people reacting 337 00:19:34,880 --> 00:19:38,360 or not being accustomed to strange meeting times, right. 338 00:19:38,360 --> 00:19:40,800 Like, oh, I'm OK, we're meeting at 2:40. 339 00:19:41,160 --> 00:19:44,840 That's a little weird. But like, OK and and it's and I 340 00:19:44,840 --> 00:19:49,160 think, I think maybe that's a benefit of outsourcing to 341 00:19:49,160 --> 00:19:51,520 technology too because you know it's like. 342 00:19:52,120 --> 00:19:53,960 You're not the one making up the weird time. 343 00:19:53,960 --> 00:19:56,640 It's the calendar that says that says that's when you're 344 00:19:56,640 --> 00:19:58,720 available, right? Whereas if you were to propose 345 00:19:58,720 --> 00:20:02,520 to someone in real life, hey, are you available to chat 346 00:20:02,640 --> 00:20:05,480 tomorrow at 2:40 PM? They'd be like, what? 347 00:20:06,640 --> 00:20:10,080 No, but 2:30 would be would be fine. 348 00:20:10,560 --> 00:20:14,120 So yeah, I think that in that way it's it makes it easier, 349 00:20:14,120 --> 00:20:17,720 right, to get around that more, more human tendency. 350 00:20:18,120 --> 00:20:21,280 Yes, I think that is something that's certainly been 351 00:20:21,280 --> 00:20:23,080 appreciated. And I think the second part of 352 00:20:23,160 --> 00:20:27,160 something like reclaim is then having what they call habits 353 00:20:27,560 --> 00:20:31,840 basically like certain kind of events or things that you want 354 00:20:31,840 --> 00:20:35,880 to have on your calendar every day or certain days of the week 355 00:20:36,360 --> 00:20:38,680 and it's going to find a way to kind of schedule it in. 356 00:20:39,320 --> 00:20:42,520 And so that's where I was talking about before where it 357 00:20:42,520 --> 00:20:46,000 can be certain, you know levels of how hardcore is it going to 358 00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:48,640 protect your lunchtime or whatever it is. 359 00:20:49,280 --> 00:20:54,440 But it does make it so that when we talk about deep work, for 360 00:20:54,440 --> 00:20:58,640 example, I have it so that it's always going to try to have 361 00:20:58,640 --> 00:21:02,760 between 9:00 and 11:00 in the morning for me as kind of focus 362 00:21:02,760 --> 00:21:06,960 time. And you know, it's it makes it 363 00:21:06,960 --> 00:21:11,000 easier for me because I kind of also then I could delete that 364 00:21:11,000 --> 00:21:13,480 whole event and schedule it in a meeting, but it just feels very 365 00:21:13,480 --> 00:21:16,320 painful to like delete that kind of sacred time for me. 366 00:21:16,840 --> 00:21:19,560 And of course there's a lot of ways to do that as well. 367 00:21:19,560 --> 00:21:21,200 You don't have to do that to reclaim. 368 00:21:21,200 --> 00:21:24,040 You can just put a recurring event in, for example, and so 369 00:21:24,040 --> 00:21:25,720 on. But again, in this case, we 370 00:21:25,800 --> 00:21:29,600 would reclaim it just kind of has that flexibility as well. 371 00:21:29,600 --> 00:21:33,960 So it's kind of like it just so if I happen to have a doctor's 372 00:21:33,960 --> 00:21:38,800 appointment at 9:15, it then bumps my deep work kind of a 373 00:21:38,800 --> 00:21:40,960 little bit after. So it's between 10:00 and 12:00 374 00:21:41,120 --> 00:21:45,160 instead of suddenly. So, yeah, I guess, I guess 375 00:21:45,160 --> 00:21:47,920 that's something I appreciate. But yeah, I don't know what you 376 00:21:47,920 --> 00:21:50,240 think. Well, it's great that your deep 377 00:21:50,240 --> 00:21:53,800 work is, is at that time. I think there's there's research 378 00:21:53,800 --> 00:21:55,960 supporting putting your deep work in the morning. 379 00:21:55,960 --> 00:21:59,240 But, but a lot of people spend their, you know, what did you 380 00:21:59,240 --> 00:22:02,800 say, 9 to 11 or at least like, you know, you know, first thing 381 00:22:02,800 --> 00:22:07,520 in the morning like when you have the most energy and ability 382 00:22:07,520 --> 00:22:10,920 to focus, they spend that time doing things like responding to 383 00:22:10,920 --> 00:22:17,000 emails and and that's really. You know not the optimal way to 384 00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:19,480 spend your time in terms of the the time of day. 385 00:22:19,720 --> 00:22:23,120 I think if we if we were designing this this new calendar 386 00:22:23,120 --> 00:22:27,320 it would actually maybe nudge you to have your deep like it. 387 00:22:27,480 --> 00:22:30,080 It would understand the types of activities that you're 388 00:22:30,080 --> 00:22:33,200 scheduling on your calendar and actually help you put them at 389 00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:36,240 the right part of the day and and discourage you from doing 390 00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:38,760 e-mail first thing in the morning and encourage you to 391 00:22:38,760 --> 00:22:41,480 have that deep work well first. Like encourage you to have deep 392 00:22:41,480 --> 00:22:44,360 work at all but but then encourage you to have it. 393 00:22:44,440 --> 00:22:47,040 At the right time. Yeah, I really like that 394 00:22:47,040 --> 00:22:48,960 actually. Yeah, I guess it'd be 395 00:22:48,960 --> 00:22:52,680 interesting to think about how how it can also kind of like 396 00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:56,320 potentially it'd be interesting to to kind of train someone into 397 00:22:56,320 --> 00:22:58,160 deep work as well. I think it's it's something we 398 00:22:58,160 --> 00:23:01,280 could kind of benefit from. You know, if now I'm imagining 399 00:23:01,280 --> 00:23:04,600 kind of this again like I have fetishizing of tools in in my 400 00:23:04,600 --> 00:23:07,000 mind in general. So it's like now I'm imagining 401 00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:10,920 this tool that's like a merge of something like a Pomodoro timer 402 00:23:10,920 --> 00:23:13,080 and a calendar and all these things that's kind of like 403 00:23:13,640 --> 00:23:17,040 saying like, hey, you know, maybe you can start deep working 404 00:23:17,040 --> 00:23:19,960 in the morning and it's easy. You start with setting a 405 00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:24,120 Pomodoro timer of like 20 minutes or 30 minutes and then 406 00:23:24,560 --> 00:23:25,920 that can be your focus for today. 407 00:23:25,920 --> 00:23:28,680 And then you can expand that time and OR cycle. 408 00:23:28,680 --> 00:23:31,760 So you can have like one or two cycles today or this week and 409 00:23:31,760 --> 00:23:36,400 then you can kind of expand to maybe 3 or so four depending on 410 00:23:37,120 --> 00:23:39,760 your deep work, how much you want to go for. 411 00:23:40,200 --> 00:23:43,120 It has to integrate with your entire desktop so that during 412 00:23:43,120 --> 00:23:46,360 your deep work time, like your focus mode is turned on as 413 00:23:46,360 --> 00:23:51,000 you're on Do Not Disturb, like all of your apps are, are 414 00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:54,920 inaccessible. You can't even access social 415 00:23:54,920 --> 00:23:58,160 media if you wanted to. Your e-mail doesn't even work 416 00:23:58,160 --> 00:24:02,440 like like this. But on the other hand, when I 417 00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:06,480 think of a world in which this is the case, I think, wow, this 418 00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:10,600 is a terrifying sort of Black Mirror esque over engineering. 419 00:24:10,600 --> 00:24:13,200 And I don't want that either, right. 420 00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:18,720 Yeah, It's really I think how I usually categorize these kind of 421 00:24:19,320 --> 00:24:21,560 things because I've been doing some interventions when it comes 422 00:24:21,560 --> 00:24:25,960 to working in digital health, when it comes to people managing 423 00:24:25,960 --> 00:24:28,800 their time with also with kind of productivity and also some 424 00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:32,920 more clinical settings. But I think about it as kind of 425 00:24:33,200 --> 00:24:37,080 solutions that are either kind of fixes or skill based sort of 426 00:24:37,080 --> 00:24:39,120 say. And I think there's certain 427 00:24:39,120 --> 00:24:43,960 fixes that maybe could be kind of built in through let's say 428 00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:46,960 slightly improved calendar functionalities. 429 00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:52,800 But then as you say, I think probably balancing that you 430 00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:56,160 probably want to also then train some skills that people can 431 00:24:56,160 --> 00:24:59,560 learn themselves instead of like you just imagining the calendar 432 00:24:59,760 --> 00:25:01,880 is going to do all of that for you and it's going to be this 433 00:25:01,880 --> 00:25:06,840 kind of all-encompassing, I don't know, like super, super 434 00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:11,160 mind for you to think for you and do for you very scary 435 00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:13,760 quickly. Yeah, it's true. 436 00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:17,080 But I also yeah, I do think there are other ways that. 437 00:25:17,600 --> 00:25:21,200 Calendar or or some sort of like you know time management 438 00:25:21,200 --> 00:25:25,720 technology in this vein could give you some some more smart 439 00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:29,280 suggestions source to of ways to spend your time like you know, 440 00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:33,680 looking at the content of your calendar rather than just saying 441 00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:37,080 you know there's a thing here, there's a thing here like you 442 00:25:37,080 --> 00:25:40,960 know, not treating everything exactly the same, but. 443 00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:44,880 But you know, in that vein of do your deep work in the morning 444 00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:50,200 essentially looking at, you know if we go into you know the 445 00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:54,040 version of tagging right, where the, you know, presumably 446 00:25:54,080 --> 00:25:57,000 machine learning algorithm understands you know what you're 447 00:25:57,000 --> 00:26:00,120 doing and tells you, hey, it's it seems like you're. 448 00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:04,280 You're spending too much time looking at and applying to jobs 449 00:26:04,280 --> 00:26:05,400 on LinkedIn. Maybe. 450 00:26:05,760 --> 00:26:09,720 You know, maybe you could you You'd be more likely to find a 451 00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:13,160 job through your weak ties, and maybe you should spend some more 452 00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:15,640 time networking, right? This, this is a more effective 453 00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:20,840 strategy for landing a job and like like really like actually 454 00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:24,760 smart recommendations rather than just letting you fall into 455 00:26:24,760 --> 00:26:29,680 this pit of, you know, sort of. Hold applying to jobs, that sort 456 00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:31,880 of thing. Yeah that is interesting. 457 00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:34,560 And I guess these days it wouldn't require more than kind 458 00:26:34,600 --> 00:26:40,160 of well it is to say this but but basically with some form of 459 00:26:40,720 --> 00:26:45,400 let's say language model basically taking the event as a 460 00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:50,200 prompt and kind of fitting it in in some ways where it's kind of 461 00:26:50,200 --> 00:26:54,720 like based on this prompt consider you know alternative 462 00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:58,760 ways to spend this time or and so on. 463 00:26:58,760 --> 00:27:03,080 I guess it would help or always the challenge with any type of 464 00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:06,720 smart suggestions I guess or AI is kind of establishing 465 00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:09,920 contexts. So how to make sure that it's, 466 00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:12,480 it knows that you have. Yeah. 467 00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:13,880 What's your goal effectively? Yeah. 468 00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:19,040 Yeah, I think yeah, that is often the problem is to to 469 00:27:19,120 --> 00:27:23,120 function well, you need a lot of understanding of what the 470 00:27:23,120 --> 00:27:26,080 person's motivation is and you very rarely know that. 471 00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:30,240 You only know what's there and you don't get that feedback 472 00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:32,600 unless people are telling you. And then it's a lot of work to 473 00:27:32,600 --> 00:27:35,640 get people to tell you that. Then you get into the the the 474 00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:38,560 realm of over engineering and just too much friction. 475 00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:41,920 You're not getting enough benefit from it and that's I 476 00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:44,680 feel like that is the weakness of the more calendar, the 477 00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:48,080 calendar that does more is that it's a little bit like some form 478 00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:52,480 of similar to tracking burden. It's kind of like requires some 479 00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:56,120 level of like extra input perhaps where you know, for it 480 00:27:56,120 --> 00:28:00,880 to really do wonders for you at the start of the day, you might 481 00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:02,760 have to interact with it a bit. Then you have to say, like, 482 00:28:03,080 --> 00:28:06,600 here's my goal of the day and here's my most important to do's 483 00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:09,080 and so on. And it'll be like, thanks, 484 00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:11,760 here's some recommendations for, you know, like I've set up your 485 00:28:11,760 --> 00:28:15,400 calendar now to succeed and and obviously that doesn't sound 486 00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:19,600 like too much input and work. But then as life happens to 487 00:28:19,600 --> 00:28:22,880 people, I think a lot of people are kind of faced with a reality 488 00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:25,760 where they're kind of used for getting to interact with their 489 00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:28,160 calendar until it's like 11 or 12. 490 00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:33,480 Yeah, and they're like, but yeah, when we still think about 491 00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:36,640 this more calendar the the better calendar, is there 492 00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:38,240 anything else that we could do there? 493 00:28:38,240 --> 00:28:41,080 We haven't talked about time blocking. 494 00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:45,680 I know it's a very big kind of wave within this space, like a 495 00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:49,480 lot of people are are in one way or another time blocking. 496 00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:53,040 We can't indirectly talk about that in some ways. 497 00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:57,080 But have you explored that? Do you have any opinions about 498 00:28:57,080 --> 00:28:59,160 time blocking? I'm not sure what you mean by 499 00:28:59,160 --> 00:29:01,280 time blocking because I feel like that is what we talked 500 00:29:01,280 --> 00:29:04,040 about with with the deep work or or. 501 00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:08,360 What do you mean turning your To Do List into your calendar? 502 00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:12,200 More like fully where the idea that you don't have a separate 503 00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:15,440 To Do List like your To Do List is your calendar and you you 504 00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:17,800 know in the sort of your. Day or something You kind of. 505 00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:24,440 Absolutely hate it, Yeah. So I like like many people who 506 00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:28,200 obsess over their time. Once read many years ago, this 507 00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:31,760 book by David Allen called Getting Things Done and he lays 508 00:29:31,760 --> 00:29:37,480 out a a process for basically collecting all of your to DOS. 509 00:29:37,800 --> 00:29:42,680 Not ever putting them on your calendar, but having time to to 510 00:29:42,920 --> 00:29:45,320 to go through them and if there's anything that you know 511 00:29:45,320 --> 00:29:48,600 takes, you know, I forget under 5 minutes or three minutes or 512 00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:51,400 something, you don't even add it to your list. 513 00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:54,040 You just go ahead and and immediately do it. 514 00:29:54,440 --> 00:30:00,560 And I think that given the energy that it takes to to try 515 00:30:00,560 --> 00:30:04,040 and estimate how much each of these tiny little tasks is going 516 00:30:04,040 --> 00:30:07,920 to take. It is much easier to just have 517 00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:12,360 you know maybe in an hour or something blocked for go through 518 00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:16,280 your to do's and and do that and so that's that's what I tend to 519 00:30:16,280 --> 00:30:20,120 do where I have the have the list in my I use the Things app. 520 00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:23,560 I'm giving you too much information about my my 521 00:30:23,560 --> 00:30:26,040 workflow. And so you you go through your 522 00:30:26,040 --> 00:30:29,160 things, app you, you know you, you knock everything out. 523 00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:32,840 But but those things don't have to live on your calendar because 524 00:30:33,040 --> 00:30:37,600 then you actually are over engineering at the extreme where 525 00:30:37,600 --> 00:30:40,440 you have, you know then you're spending all of your time 526 00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:43,200 managing your time and that's not sustainable. 527 00:30:43,920 --> 00:30:49,080 So someone who's in the time blocking camp, it might like say 528 00:30:49,800 --> 00:30:55,680 that the only true way to really take accountability for your to 529 00:30:55,680 --> 00:30:59,120 do's is to put a time estimate and put it into your day. 530 00:30:59,120 --> 00:31:02,360 Like you prioritize it that way, you know it lives on your 531 00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:06,400 calendar and so you're kind of taking accountability that if I 532 00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:08,360 have put in my calendar, I'm going to do this thing for an 533 00:31:08,360 --> 00:31:11,120 hour, that's what I'm going to do and then I can adjust and so 534 00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:12,880 on. But it's like, do you feel like 535 00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:18,400 that's a reasonable thing? Depends how large the task is. 536 00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:22,880 For the million small things that would be insane. 537 00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:28,480 For, you know, I want to make sure that I make progress on 538 00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:34,360 writing a book. And so you you put, you know, I 539 00:31:34,360 --> 00:31:37,200 mean, that feels like deep work to me, but, you know, whatever. 540 00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:42,600 To me, that's like you're 9:00 to 9:00 to 11:00 AM, you know, 541 00:31:42,640 --> 00:31:46,400 every, every day or every other day where you're just you're, 542 00:31:46,400 --> 00:31:47,920 you know, you've reserved that time for that. 543 00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:50,880 Yeah, that's that is for sure a good thing. 544 00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:54,640 I think that's, you know, you can't be too religious about it 545 00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:58,360 because things come up and you have to be able to be flexible 546 00:31:58,360 --> 00:32:00,960 and adapt when when that doesn't work out. 547 00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:04,800 But yeah, I think that that is one way to ensure that. 548 00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:08,880 That that priority is actually prioritized in your time. 549 00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:11,000 Yeah. So another thing that is 550 00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:15,280 interesting with with this calendar is that day around, I 551 00:32:15,280 --> 00:32:18,800 think with non promotable tasks. I think what came up with all 552 00:32:18,800 --> 00:32:22,040 was meetings and we have I guess talked a little about meetings. 553 00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:28,200 But would you want a calendar to, like, actively challenge you 554 00:32:29,320 --> 00:32:31,400 on in terms of like, are you really supposed to have this 555 00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:35,520 meeting or, you know, challenge the person trying to book a 556 00:32:35,520 --> 00:32:38,360 meeting with you? And it's like, hey, Eileen is 557 00:32:38,360 --> 00:32:45,760 actually much more busy than you maybe kind of assume booking a 558 00:32:45,760 --> 00:32:48,480 time for talking about this seemingly important, unimportant 559 00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:49,960 thing? Like, do you really need to do 560 00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:51,680 this or can you send an e-mail to Eileen instead? 561 00:32:52,280 --> 00:32:56,080 How much do you want your calendar to kind of work for you 562 00:32:56,080 --> 00:32:58,920 to reduce meeting times? Well yeah. 563 00:32:58,920 --> 00:33:04,560 Well, I don't know that I want to e-mail either, but this 564 00:33:04,560 --> 00:33:06,840 e-mail client and calendar client battling against the 565 00:33:06,840 --> 00:33:09,120 shadow. Like sending, you know, doesn't 566 00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:12,040 want to do this, yeah. Totally, totally. 567 00:33:12,040 --> 00:33:16,000 So this this reminds me of my favorite person on the Internet 568 00:33:16,080 --> 00:33:17,880 who who I know we've talked about before. 569 00:33:17,880 --> 00:33:20,400 Soren Iverson has has made all sorts of. 570 00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:26,480 Unhinged designs that that often get at this idea of does this 571 00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:29,200 meeting really need to happen? Like tell people how much this 572 00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:32,760 meeting costs in order to, you know, you get that little shock 573 00:33:32,760 --> 00:33:38,760 effect of oh like is this really worth, you know, $6000 for this 574 00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:41,320 half an hour or you know, however much it is? 575 00:33:42,080 --> 00:33:45,800 Yeah, and like allowing people to to vote to cancel the meeting 576 00:33:45,880 --> 00:33:47,600 and really like asking why. Yeah. 577 00:33:47,600 --> 00:33:50,720 Do you really need an all hands or like, can you at least tell 578 00:33:50,720 --> 00:33:52,880 people why you're calling them all together? 579 00:33:53,360 --> 00:33:55,080 Yeah, I think this is an interesting idea. 580 00:33:55,080 --> 00:33:59,200 I'd be open to trying it. All of these, all all of these 581 00:33:59,200 --> 00:34:02,920 designs that are meant to be, I think in many ways meant to be. 582 00:34:02,920 --> 00:34:06,600 Jokes, I think could actually work in real life for maybe 583 00:34:06,600 --> 00:34:08,320 people like me. I like them too. 584 00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:11,639 I think it's good, yeah. And I but I also saw this like 585 00:34:11,639 --> 00:34:14,639 it's almost like the counter meme recently where someone 586 00:34:14,639 --> 00:34:18,040 says, you know, you know, this meeting could have been an 587 00:34:18,040 --> 00:34:21,800 e-mail and the other person says, well, I did send you 5 588 00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:24,000 emails that didn't respond to and that's why we're having this 589 00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:26,280 meeting. There you go. 590 00:34:28,080 --> 00:34:30,080 As it speaks this kind of thing you were mentioning before of 591 00:34:30,080 --> 00:34:35,040 like, yeah, we're I think context wise we are a little bit 592 00:34:35,120 --> 00:34:39,320 overwhelmed managing both emails and calendars and it's just it's 593 00:34:39,320 --> 00:34:43,639 hard to really feel like you're succeeding with that kind of, I 594 00:34:43,639 --> 00:34:47,520 don't know, we just too much pressure on both ends and it's 595 00:34:47,840 --> 00:34:50,760 solving for one might like creating more problems on the 596 00:34:50,760 --> 00:34:54,440 other end and and so on. And yeah, it's hard. 597 00:34:55,320 --> 00:34:58,720 OK. And before we wrap up this more 598 00:34:58,760 --> 00:35:02,400 expensive calendar, do you think we've covered some of the main 599 00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:04,480 ideas here, what we could do or it's anything else that you want 600 00:35:04,480 --> 00:35:05,920 to kind of bring up as like something that could be 601 00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:09,600 interesting to, to add to this more, you know the more 602 00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:13,000 calendar? I think there there's one aspect 603 00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:18,520 and it's the social aspect that I feel like is missing from the 604 00:35:18,520 --> 00:35:22,560 calendar as as it's currently designed or any calendar that I 605 00:35:22,560 --> 00:35:24,920 can think of, right you. I mean, you can always invite 606 00:35:24,920 --> 00:35:28,960 someone to do a meeting, right? And that's on you to decide who 607 00:35:28,960 --> 00:35:32,160 and when and where and so on. But there's nothing. 608 00:35:32,680 --> 00:35:35,920 Built into the calendar to encourage that social 609 00:35:35,920 --> 00:35:39,000 interaction and and especially when it comes to accountability, 610 00:35:39,000 --> 00:35:40,280 right. You put something on your 611 00:35:40,280 --> 00:35:43,800 calendar, it's really easy to ignore it when it's just you and 612 00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:46,960 the calendar, it's like nobody else sees that it's there. 613 00:35:47,200 --> 00:35:50,400 So you could put on your calendar as a completely 614 00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:52,760 hypothetical example. This isn't true for me at all, 615 00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:54,160 but you could put your, you know. 616 00:35:55,120 --> 00:35:58,840 Your daily exercise on the calendar and just ignore it 617 00:35:58,840 --> 00:36:00,920 every day, right. It's scheduled every day. 618 00:36:00,920 --> 00:36:03,000 But do you do it like, like, not? 619 00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:04,960 Not necessarily. And does anyone know? 620 00:36:05,360 --> 00:36:08,240 Probably not. But just imagine that your 621 00:36:08,240 --> 00:36:11,560 calendar was integrated with your fitness tracker, for 622 00:36:11,560 --> 00:36:13,040 example. And so it knew. 623 00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:18,040 It knew you had your daily yoga on the calendar and you didn't 624 00:36:18,040 --> 00:36:20,000 do it. I see that like, you know, you 625 00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:23,080 didn't move anymore. You didn't get off the couch at 626 00:36:23,080 --> 00:36:25,040 all, right? And so once, once. 627 00:36:25,120 --> 00:36:29,000 The your, you know, whatever this ecosystem is has detected 628 00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:33,320 that then the calendar can, you know can help you create some 629 00:36:33,320 --> 00:36:35,600 intervention tools if this is something that's important to 630 00:36:35,600 --> 00:36:37,320 you, right. If you say it is my goal to 631 00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:40,480 actually do this and I'd like some help, then the calendar 632 00:36:40,480 --> 00:36:44,240 can, you know, suggest that you invite an accountability to, to 633 00:36:44,440 --> 00:36:46,840 you know, to actually work out together during that time so 634 00:36:46,840 --> 00:36:50,280 that you know someone knows if you're not and you know they're 635 00:36:50,280 --> 00:36:52,560 also there to show up and and do it with you. 636 00:36:52,880 --> 00:36:55,040 So that sort of thing, I think could be really. 637 00:36:55,160 --> 00:36:57,040 Really helpful. Yeah, that is interesting 638 00:36:57,440 --> 00:37:01,280 because I I remember you mentioned with your watch that 639 00:37:01,280 --> 00:37:05,640 with your fitness watch you've had some support in terms of 640 00:37:05,640 --> 00:37:07,720 accountability. Would I think your maybe your 641 00:37:07,720 --> 00:37:11,320 sister or or some family members you feel like it would work 642 00:37:11,720 --> 00:37:15,320 equally good if it was on your calendar or better or you feel 643 00:37:15,320 --> 00:37:18,640 like how would you compare those two type of accountability? 644 00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:23,000 I think having a specific time helps in a in a certain way 645 00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:26,240 because you know if that thing has happened or not by a 646 00:37:26,240 --> 00:37:28,720 specific deadline. Whereas if you're just in 647 00:37:28,720 --> 00:37:32,760 general trying to exercise every day, it's easier to miss. 648 00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:35,120 But if you have something scheduled on the calendar and 649 00:37:35,120 --> 00:37:38,080 it's like a meeting, you know that you don't, you hadn't shown 650 00:37:38,080 --> 00:37:40,720 up for the meeting. So I think there's there's like 651 00:37:40,720 --> 00:37:45,280 a something more tangible about it being on the calendar that 652 00:37:45,280 --> 00:37:48,360 goes. Above and beyond just the like 653 00:37:48,360 --> 00:37:51,960 sharing of activity and the updates and and so on, it's it's 654 00:37:52,080 --> 00:37:54,560 it's really easy to miss something that didn't happen 655 00:37:54,920 --> 00:37:59,400 that isn't like planned or scheduled in any like very 656 00:37:59,400 --> 00:38:01,960 specific way. Yeah, that's fair. 657 00:38:03,840 --> 00:38:06,040 OK. So then wrapping up, kind of 658 00:38:06,040 --> 00:38:08,800 summarizing what a more calendar could look like. 659 00:38:08,840 --> 00:38:12,560 It could have some form of establishing an understanding of 660 00:38:12,560 --> 00:38:15,400 what your goals are and maybe trying to support you in better 661 00:38:15,400 --> 00:38:18,680 structuring your day based on those goals or giving you some 662 00:38:18,680 --> 00:38:22,360 advice or smart suggestions to kind of more effectively 663 00:38:22,360 --> 00:38:25,360 spending your time. It might have some form of like 664 00:38:26,360 --> 00:38:29,840 I guess better defaults around ensuring that certain meetings 665 00:38:29,840 --> 00:38:33,600 are like capped or that you have a space after the meetings and 666 00:38:33,880 --> 00:38:39,840 stuff like that. We talked about again having had 667 00:38:39,840 --> 00:38:41,800 functionality run meetings specifically kind of 668 00:38:42,360 --> 00:38:45,440 incentivizing people to cancel them if they are not that 669 00:38:45,440 --> 00:38:48,960 important and and then we're talking about accountability. 670 00:38:49,560 --> 00:38:50,880 Yeah. What do you feel like there's 671 00:38:50,880 --> 00:38:52,480 more calendar? Does it seem appealing to you or 672 00:38:52,480 --> 00:38:56,200 are you going to try to? If it was there today, would you 673 00:38:56,240 --> 00:38:57,120 would you start using? It. 674 00:38:57,160 --> 00:38:59,960 I would definitely try it. I would definitely try it. 675 00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:04,800 I still have this this something inside me that that. 676 00:39:06,200 --> 00:39:10,960 That really cringes at at the over engineering of it all and I 677 00:39:10,960 --> 00:39:15,160 think there are a lot of downsides to having too much on 678 00:39:15,160 --> 00:39:19,240 your calendar, right. So the the more often results in 679 00:39:19,240 --> 00:39:22,440 a very full looking calendar. If you have everything that you 680 00:39:22,440 --> 00:39:26,840 want to do in your day on the calendar that that like, you 681 00:39:26,840 --> 00:39:30,720 know the visceral feeling of looking at a calendar that has 682 00:39:30,920 --> 00:39:35,720 everything blocked off is just. So stressful and I think 683 00:39:35,720 --> 00:39:39,200 contributes to this feeling of time scarcity that of course we 684 00:39:39,200 --> 00:39:42,520 know from Lori Santos and and many others who are studying 685 00:39:42,800 --> 00:39:45,400 happiness and well-being like this can really, really take a 686 00:39:45,400 --> 00:39:47,680 hit. And when I look at my calendar 687 00:39:47,680 --> 00:39:51,600 and it's so full, I have this terrible feeling of not having 688 00:39:51,600 --> 00:39:54,000 control over my day and my time and. 689 00:39:54,480 --> 00:39:58,440 Like, I don't even feel like I have the the autonomy to take a 690 00:39:58,440 --> 00:40:01,160 break, right. Like if I wanted to take a walk 691 00:40:01,160 --> 00:40:03,120 or it's like if that's not scheduled in my calendar, I 692 00:40:03,120 --> 00:40:05,720 can't do it because everything, you know, everything is all 693 00:40:05,720 --> 00:40:07,920 ready. Every minute is accounted for. 694 00:40:08,240 --> 00:40:13,440 And so I think that's definitely a big downside of the the the 695 00:40:13,440 --> 00:40:17,480 more better calendar which which leads me to think you know maybe 696 00:40:17,480 --> 00:40:20,800 we should consider the the second direction of less 697 00:40:20,800 --> 00:40:24,400 calendar sort of freeing people from from the the shackle. 698 00:40:24,640 --> 00:40:29,720 Of you know of the calendar. Right. 699 00:40:29,960 --> 00:40:33,280 And what what does the last calendar look like? 700 00:40:33,280 --> 00:40:36,880 It's it's kind of operating based on more built in 701 00:40:36,880 --> 00:40:43,360 limitations. I have no idea what is it's it's 702 00:40:43,440 --> 00:40:47,560 throwing away the calendar it's it's horrible because we rely on 703 00:40:47,560 --> 00:40:50,440 our calendars for so many things. 704 00:40:50,440 --> 00:40:54,640 But I think that the less product focused view and maybe 705 00:40:54,640 --> 00:40:58,440 the more philosophical view when I think about this comes from 706 00:40:58,440 --> 00:41:01,560 Oliver Burkman. And so I I know, like this is a, 707 00:41:01,600 --> 00:41:04,120 I'm a very big fan of his book 4000 Weeks. 708 00:41:04,160 --> 00:41:09,160 And when I read this you know he he talks all about how we put so 709 00:41:09,160 --> 00:41:13,000 much energy into being productive and managing our time 710 00:41:13,080 --> 00:41:17,440 and we just are afraid to face this reality that is very, very 711 00:41:17,440 --> 00:41:21,760 true that our time is so scarce and limited and you cannot 712 00:41:22,240 --> 00:41:24,640 possibly accomplish all the things that you want to 713 00:41:24,640 --> 00:41:28,000 accomplish in life. And so the the solution to this 714 00:41:28,000 --> 00:41:33,360 is to basically just let go. Like if if stop trying to master 715 00:41:33,360 --> 00:41:35,520 your time because you're you're not going to do it and you're 716 00:41:35,520 --> 00:41:37,680 making yourself miserable by trying. 717 00:41:38,400 --> 00:41:42,200 And so I think that his suggestions of you know instead 718 00:41:42,200 --> 00:41:46,480 of trying to get everything done and, you know and and work all 719 00:41:46,480 --> 00:41:48,920 the time spend your free time with your friends and your 720 00:41:48,920 --> 00:41:52,120 family and volunteering and hobbies, that sort of thing that 721 00:41:52,120 --> 00:41:54,560 like actually brings you more joy. 722 00:41:54,560 --> 00:41:58,560 And you don't actually have to plan every minute when you're 723 00:41:58,560 --> 00:42:01,360 doing that either, right. Like you can have a a general 724 00:42:01,360 --> 00:42:04,560 like Saturday afternoon. I'm going to, you know, spend 725 00:42:04,560 --> 00:42:07,000 some time. I'm I'm going to go over to blah 726 00:42:07,000 --> 00:42:09,720 de Blah's house. But it doesn't. 727 00:42:10,520 --> 00:42:14,880 How does the calendar promote this from a product perspective? 728 00:42:15,360 --> 00:42:17,920 I'm not sure. I think this might just go back 729 00:42:17,920 --> 00:42:22,120 to helping people, helping people let go. 730 00:42:22,720 --> 00:42:26,120 Yeah, but I remember I actually talking about Oliver Burkman, I 731 00:42:26,760 --> 00:42:30,880 took his, I think it's called like a course on productivity, 732 00:42:31,040 --> 00:42:33,920 the the waking up app and it's kind of like the. 733 00:42:35,160 --> 00:42:37,640 And the productivity course and and how you describe it, it's 734 00:42:37,640 --> 00:42:40,520 kind of like starting with that this is not going to be your 735 00:42:40,520 --> 00:42:42,240 typical productivity course. It's going to do kind of 736 00:42:42,240 --> 00:42:46,160 opposites in many ways of of trying to focus not so much like 737 00:42:46,160 --> 00:42:50,800 maximizing every moment in terms of being as you know doing as 738 00:42:50,800 --> 00:42:55,440 much as possible, but more better able at being maybe for 739 00:42:55,840 --> 00:42:59,720 example mindful about what matters and and and spending the 740 00:42:59,720 --> 00:43:01,640 time in in a more thoughtful and meaningful way. 741 00:43:02,120 --> 00:43:05,080 So I did. They will enjoy that too. 742 00:43:05,400 --> 00:43:10,280 And I do think a calendar, you know could potentially involve 743 00:43:10,280 --> 00:43:14,920 some some elements of like supporting maybe instead of 744 00:43:14,920 --> 00:43:18,160 trying to be a smart calendar, just trying to make you smart 745 00:43:19,160 --> 00:43:25,240 like trying to kind of prime you to think a little more to take 746 00:43:25,240 --> 00:43:29,240 space to reflect or. Do things that are not 747 00:43:29,240 --> 00:43:31,480 productive? How would the calendar do that? 748 00:43:31,680 --> 00:43:35,200 It would like create fake meetings and then it would then 749 00:43:35,200 --> 00:43:37,720 remove them being like a little bit like Laura Santos style. 750 00:43:37,720 --> 00:43:40,840 Like actually take this 30 minutes and go for a walk 751 00:43:40,840 --> 00:43:43,680 instead and think about, you know, what do you really value 752 00:43:43,680 --> 00:43:46,040 in life and and how? How will you make this afternoon 753 00:43:47,120 --> 00:43:48,800 something important for you, you know? 754 00:43:48,960 --> 00:43:51,080 Yeah, that. Yeah, that's nice. 755 00:43:52,480 --> 00:43:54,120 Yeah. I mean, it gets that this, this 756 00:43:54,520 --> 00:43:57,680 reality that we can't just throw the calendar away. 757 00:43:57,680 --> 00:44:01,480 We have to have a calendar. But what does it do for us and 758 00:44:01,480 --> 00:44:04,640 how does it actually help us spend our time more wisely? 759 00:44:05,320 --> 00:44:08,600 I think we've found it. Yeah, yeah, maybe. 760 00:44:09,120 --> 00:44:10,360 Yeah. I'd be interested to hear what 761 00:44:10,360 --> 00:44:13,040 what people think. And one thing we didn't cover 762 00:44:13,040 --> 00:44:16,400 too much is that we haven't covered the kind of more. 763 00:44:17,360 --> 00:44:22,360 Call it cognitive bias. View of what a calendar could do 764 00:44:22,400 --> 00:44:24,960 in that we talk about sometimes planning fallacy. 765 00:44:24,960 --> 00:44:29,400 We talk about some other things like that where you could 766 00:44:29,400 --> 00:44:36,000 imagine like a super kind of someone is super into the hype 767 00:44:36,000 --> 00:44:39,800 of cognitive bias or design. A calendar would really focus a 768 00:44:39,800 --> 00:44:42,920 little bit more about like what contributes to planning fallacy. 769 00:44:42,920 --> 00:44:45,960 How do you how could a calendar reduce that risk? 770 00:44:46,320 --> 00:44:51,320 What are other kind of? This is really into time or 771 00:44:51,640 --> 00:44:55,000 decision making regarding time. Yeah like having having a 772 00:44:55,000 --> 00:44:57,000 multiplier. If you put if you think 773 00:44:57,000 --> 00:45:00,240 something in your time blocking is you think it's going to take 774 00:45:00,280 --> 00:45:02,760 an hour. Actually give them an hour and a 775 00:45:02,760 --> 00:45:04,920 half, for example. Yeah, but I don't know. 776 00:45:04,920 --> 00:45:08,640 Does that seem something that you think would be valuable? 777 00:45:09,120 --> 00:45:11,560 No, I don't. I don't think I want my calendar 778 00:45:11,560 --> 00:45:14,520 to override my time management decisions. 779 00:45:16,680 --> 00:45:21,280 Yeah, yeah, I think. You know a the last calendar 780 00:45:21,280 --> 00:45:24,080 that I think would work well for me is some some calendar just 781 00:45:24,080 --> 00:45:29,080 kind of focus on some key principles and trying to 782 00:45:29,080 --> 00:45:32,080 reinforce some some like good habits on a daily basis. 783 00:45:32,080 --> 00:45:34,640 So that could be, for example, you know, as you say, like 784 00:45:34,640 --> 00:45:38,960 training me to spend the first two hours of my day in deep work 785 00:45:38,960 --> 00:45:43,040 rather than in kind of switching between Slack to e-mail, to 786 00:45:43,360 --> 00:45:46,960 LinkedIn and and so on and also maybe. 787 00:45:47,440 --> 00:45:49,520 Training me to have, like, a shutdown ritual, like a little 788 00:45:49,520 --> 00:45:52,160 bit too was the name Cal Newport. 789 00:45:52,560 --> 00:45:55,480 And talking about the idea of, you know, having a shutdown 790 00:45:55,480 --> 00:46:00,080 ritual where you kind of really switch off and you kind of shut 791 00:46:00,080 --> 00:46:04,200 down and disconnect from your work calendar at a certain time 792 00:46:04,200 --> 00:46:07,440 every day. I think that will be the last 793 00:46:07,440 --> 00:46:10,800 calendar that I think will be valuable for me. 794 00:46:10,880 --> 00:46:15,040 Yeah, Awesome. Well, I think we've solved the 795 00:46:15,040 --> 00:46:16,760 calendar. What do? 796 00:46:18,680 --> 00:46:19,720 You think? Yeah, yeah, maybe. 797 00:46:20,480 --> 00:46:22,160 But it was fun to talk about it. Definitely. 798 00:46:22,160 --> 00:46:25,000 Fun to to discuss all things time in calendar. 799 00:46:25,640 --> 00:46:26,920 Yeah. So maybe I'll just leave us with 800 00:46:26,920 --> 00:46:32,760 a quote here from Annie Dillard. She says that how we spend our 801 00:46:32,760 --> 00:46:35,960 days is, of course, how we spend our lives. 802 00:46:36,600 --> 00:46:41,080 So let's continue to explore this idea of how we can spend 803 00:46:41,080 --> 00:46:43,920 our days better. And hopefully this has been 804 00:46:43,920 --> 00:46:47,320 interesting in terms of some new thoughts around what a calendar 805 00:46:47,320 --> 00:46:48,720 you could do to help us with that. 806 00:46:49,320 --> 00:46:51,760 But yeah, if you have some thoughts, if you want to reach 807 00:46:51,760 --> 00:46:55,720 out, e-mail podcast@haveaweekly.com, share 808 00:46:55,720 --> 00:47:00,720 your thoughts with us. And yeah, as always, thanks for 809 00:47:00,720 --> 00:47:03,200 stopping by. And thanks for supporting the 810 00:47:03,200 --> 00:47:05,600 podcasts. Last words from you, Elaine. 811 00:47:05,600 --> 00:47:10,640 What's next on your calendar? I need to call my sister to do 812 00:47:10,640 --> 00:47:13,120 that yoga workout. OK. 813 00:47:15,160 --> 00:47:18,120 Time to wrap up another episode of the Behavioural Design 814 00:47:18,120 --> 00:47:20,600 Podcast. We hope you enjoyed the show. 815 00:47:20,960 --> 00:47:25,720 Oh, and I am an AI. Yeah, welcome to Uncanny Valley. 816 00:47:26,240 --> 00:47:28,960 Sam and Elaine told me. This is going to be an awesome 817 00:47:28,960 --> 00:47:31,760 season, so make sure to subscribe and help spread the 818 00:47:31,760 --> 00:47:33,760 word. Maybe share the podcast with a 819 00:47:33,760 --> 00:47:37,360 colleague or friend. And if you want to show us some 820 00:47:37,400 --> 00:47:39,840 extra love, head over to Habit Weekly. 821 00:47:40,240 --> 00:47:43,720 Come and join our community Pro members, get access to a wealth 822 00:47:43,720 --> 00:47:46,160 of resources and the chance to interact with leading 823 00:47:46,160 --> 00:47:49,040 practitioners. It's a great way to support the 824 00:47:49,040 --> 00:47:51,640 podcast and deepen your understanding of behavioral 825 00:47:51,640 --> 00:47:54,360 design. Our fantastic show music is 826 00:47:54,360 --> 00:47:57,960 Murgatroyd by the wonderful Dave Pizarro, and thanks to the team 827 00:47:57,960 --> 00:48:00,760 at Orange Wall Media for the production of this episode. 828 00:48:01,200 --> 00:48:04,400 For questions or ideas for future episodes, e-mail 829 00:48:04,400 --> 00:48:08,680 podcast@habitweekly.com. We'd love to hear from you. 830 00:48:09,200 --> 00:48:11,560 Thanks again for listening. See you next time.