1 00:00:03,280 --> 00:00:05,880 Hello and welcome to the Behavioral Design Podcast. 2 00:00:05,960 --> 00:00:08,680 This season we're diving into the intersection of behavioral 3 00:00:08,680 --> 00:00:11,080 science and AI. We want to make sense of the 4 00:00:11,080 --> 00:00:14,080 state of AI, from understanding how humans interact with 5 00:00:14,080 --> 00:00:17,520 intelligent systems to using AI to do behavioral design itself. 6 00:00:17,720 --> 00:00:21,280 I'm Aline Holsworth, a health tech advisor specializing in AI 7 00:00:21,280 --> 00:00:23,880 and product design. Over the past 15 years, I've 8 00:00:23,880 --> 00:00:26,720 been crafting human centered products with behavioral science 9 00:00:26,720 --> 00:00:29,160 at the core. At Apple, I LED Behavioral 10 00:00:29,160 --> 00:00:32,119 Science for Health AI, designing and launching AI powered 11 00:00:32,119 --> 00:00:34,440 features to help users reach their health goals. 12 00:00:35,160 --> 00:00:37,160 And I'm Samuel Sultzer, your second Co host. 13 00:00:37,400 --> 00:00:40,600 I'm a behavioral strategist specializing in hybrid formation 14 00:00:40,600 --> 00:00:43,200 and designing products that drive long term baby change. 15 00:00:43,640 --> 00:00:46,880 I work with leading tech organizations integrating AI to 16 00:00:46,880 --> 00:00:48,240 scale behavioral design for good. 17 00:00:48,800 --> 00:00:52,200 And I'm also the founder of Baby Bites, a dedicated community on 18 00:00:52,440 --> 00:00:56,240 behavioral science and AI. Quick word on Nuance Behavior 19 00:00:56,240 --> 00:00:59,640 where we help organizations build impactful digital products 20 00:00:59,640 --> 00:01:02,640 using behavioral design. We only take on a few clients at 21 00:01:02,640 --> 00:01:05,200 a time to ensure the highest level of quality for our 22 00:01:05,200 --> 00:01:07,400 tailored evidence based solutions. 23 00:01:08,280 --> 00:01:11,080 If you'd like to become one of our special projects, e-mail us 24 00:01:11,120 --> 00:01:14,760 at hello@nuancebehavior.com or we could call directly on our 25 00:01:14,760 --> 00:01:29,160 website, nuancebehavior.com. Hello, Eileen. 26 00:01:30,080 --> 00:01:30,480 Hi. Hi. 27 00:01:31,520 --> 00:01:36,240 So I want to talk about getting old and getting old with robots 28 00:01:37,160 --> 00:01:41,640 because we had a really great episode recently with Laura the 29 00:01:41,640 --> 00:01:46,520 Molier and she had her most controversial opinion about AI 30 00:01:46,920 --> 00:01:50,360 being that she was looking forward to basically towards the 31 00:01:50,360 --> 00:01:54,720 end of her life being taken care of by some form of robotic 32 00:01:55,080 --> 00:01:59,280 Android AI companion. Yeah, and and she spoke about 33 00:01:59,280 --> 00:02:02,680 this with quite a, a great deal of conviction, which made it 34 00:02:02,680 --> 00:02:05,640 clear she's really thought this through, which I think many 35 00:02:05,640 --> 00:02:08,400 people would just dismiss it as, well, that's ludicrous. 36 00:02:08,400 --> 00:02:10,560 Why would I? I don't want that at all. 37 00:02:11,560 --> 00:02:13,440 Yeah. And that brings me to ask you, 38 00:02:13,920 --> 00:02:15,880 what do you think about that? Is that something that you see 39 00:02:15,880 --> 00:02:20,920 yourself also wanting to have? No, I don't want that at all. 40 00:02:22,920 --> 00:02:27,280 And I think, yeah, maybe maybe my initial reaction is one of 41 00:02:28,200 --> 00:02:31,880 dismissive non reflection. But even when I do think about 42 00:02:31,880 --> 00:02:36,000 this, because her statements did make me think a little deeper 43 00:02:36,000 --> 00:02:40,680 about this question. And no, no, I really, I really 44 00:02:40,680 --> 00:02:44,360 don't think I want that. And honestly, I'm, I feel like 45 00:02:44,360 --> 00:02:47,520 I'm just relying on being the first one to die, right? 46 00:02:47,520 --> 00:02:51,480 Like I'm not going to be the one who's out living my husband, my 47 00:02:51,480 --> 00:02:53,640 family and so on. I'm just going to die first and 48 00:02:53,640 --> 00:02:55,720 then it's not a problem. That's my solution. 49 00:02:55,920 --> 00:02:57,520 That's like, that's the game, right? 50 00:02:57,520 --> 00:02:59,280 Like that. It's so you're basically banking 51 00:02:59,280 --> 00:03:03,680 on that. You wouldn't have to kind of be 52 00:03:03,680 --> 00:03:06,040 lonely enough to need an AI companion. 53 00:03:06,200 --> 00:03:11,200 You will just be reliant on people that you love, that you 54 00:03:11,200 --> 00:03:15,000 know, that knows you and thinking of you that way. 55 00:03:15,360 --> 00:03:17,760 Yeah, I know. I'm not planning to live into my 56 00:03:17,760 --> 00:03:19,640 hundreds. I'm, you know, like maybe I'll 57 00:03:19,640 --> 00:03:21,240 make it to 80 and then we're good. 58 00:03:21,440 --> 00:03:24,440 Singularity. No, no, you don't want to be 59 00:03:24,440 --> 00:03:27,080 uploaded to the cloud or in some ways. 60 00:03:27,200 --> 00:03:30,680 Yeah. No, no, not really. 61 00:03:31,160 --> 00:03:32,480 OK. We haven't actually talked about 62 00:03:32,480 --> 00:03:35,000 that specific thing. That's like obviously never Ray 63 00:03:35,000 --> 00:03:38,800 Kurzweil kind of concept that it's still very much, I think 64 00:03:38,880 --> 00:03:42,000 some people are kind of banking on like the idea that soon 65 00:03:42,400 --> 00:03:47,360 you'll be able to transcend into the digital void and be a 66 00:03:47,360 --> 00:03:49,040 version of yourself in the cloud. 67 00:03:49,120 --> 00:03:51,200 Yeah. There are versions of those. 68 00:03:51,400 --> 00:03:53,200 They're not very satisfying, right? 69 00:03:54,080 --> 00:03:56,800 They lack so much of the human element. 70 00:03:57,480 --> 00:04:00,920 Even if you go beyond the, you know, the physical embodiment, 71 00:04:00,920 --> 00:04:03,600 you just you, you can't really. Let's just take for example, 72 00:04:03,600 --> 00:04:08,640 like I've tried to train generative AI to write in my 73 00:04:08,640 --> 00:04:15,120 writing style, to speak in my voice, to perform video, all of 74 00:04:15,120 --> 00:04:17,640 the different modalities, giving it lots and lots and lots of 75 00:04:17,640 --> 00:04:19,320 data. All the data of me, like, more 76 00:04:19,320 --> 00:04:21,720 than anyone would ever, ever want to see of me. 77 00:04:22,240 --> 00:04:27,560 And I'm just so, so deeply dissatisfied with any sort of 78 00:04:27,560 --> 00:04:31,000 outcome. It's so incredibly far away from 79 00:04:31,080 --> 00:04:36,520 even seeming like me that, yeah, I mean, some version of this is 80 00:04:36,520 --> 00:04:39,200 possible now and some version of this will continue to be 81 00:04:39,200 --> 00:04:42,640 possible. Is it going to be satisfactory 82 00:04:42,640 --> 00:04:46,480 in a way that we feel like, oh, that that was really Eileen I 83 00:04:46,480 --> 00:04:50,320 connected with. I have my doubts. 84 00:04:51,200 --> 00:04:56,640 OK, well, again, I think I've referenced Westworld before, 85 00:04:56,640 --> 00:04:59,760 but, and spoiler alert for anyone who still hasn't finished 86 00:05:00,120 --> 00:05:02,560 watching Westworld, but basically one of the main 87 00:05:02,560 --> 00:05:10,640 premises is this attempt to try to basically create a some form 88 00:05:10,640 --> 00:05:15,040 of replica of not only that looks like you or sounds like 89 00:05:15,040 --> 00:05:19,600 you, but I actually it's like 1 to one you in in all aspects. 90 00:05:19,600 --> 00:05:21,680 And they really struggle with fidelity. 91 00:05:22,080 --> 00:05:25,000 It's kind of starts to season 2. You see more and more of it with 92 00:05:25,000 --> 00:05:28,000 one of the people wanting to maintain a version of his dad 93 00:05:28,160 --> 00:05:31,600 and so trying to get that to happen, but failing. 94 00:05:31,920 --> 00:05:34,560 And that is of all the things that succeeds in what's wrong in 95 00:05:34,560 --> 00:05:38,240 terms like they create a lot of advanced versions of robots and 96 00:05:38,240 --> 00:05:41,520 so on. But it never accomplished this 97 00:05:41,520 --> 00:05:46,400 thing of like creating some form of real clone of ourselves. 98 00:05:46,880 --> 00:05:49,440 And it's fun. We're talking now about sci-fi. 99 00:05:49,520 --> 00:05:52,240 And that leads us into in many ways, this episode of today, 100 00:05:52,240 --> 00:05:54,120 because we're we're having a very different episode. 101 00:05:54,120 --> 00:05:57,840 In some ways. It's still very much about all 102 00:05:57,840 --> 00:06:01,880 things AI and cable science, but from a very different 103 00:06:02,000 --> 00:06:02,760 perspective. Yeah. 104 00:06:03,320 --> 00:06:05,200 So much fun. And yeah, I don't know, should I 105 00:06:05,200 --> 00:06:08,560 share a little bit like, why, why we're having this episode? 106 00:06:10,480 --> 00:06:13,360 So I found myself over Christmas reading a book called Anibot, 107 00:06:13,600 --> 00:06:19,000 and I thought it was such a good book as a sci-fi book, but also 108 00:06:19,000 --> 00:06:22,760 because it'll just come out. And so it quite well reflected 109 00:06:22,760 --> 00:06:26,720 like kind of what are the emerging themes we're seeing in 110 00:06:26,720 --> 00:06:28,640 the technology? But obviously taking it a little 111 00:06:28,640 --> 00:06:31,880 bit step further, kind of imagining a near future where 112 00:06:31,880 --> 00:06:38,480 this robot Android Annie is in the home of her owner Doug. 113 00:06:39,000 --> 00:06:44,040 And she is basically the perfect companion in the eyes of Doug, 114 00:06:44,040 --> 00:06:45,840 where that's certainly what she's been sold to be. 115 00:06:45,840 --> 00:06:50,000 And she's been programmed to please him in all ways. 116 00:06:50,400 --> 00:06:53,880 And the book follows in some ways from her perspective. 117 00:06:54,400 --> 00:07:00,520 And I don't know, I've rarely felt as how to say emotionally 118 00:07:00,520 --> 00:07:04,520 attached to a Android character. I, I watch a lot of sci-fi. 119 00:07:04,520 --> 00:07:07,880 I really love sci-fi books. But like, Annie is someone I 120 00:07:07,880 --> 00:07:13,240 really felt for and it, it made me think about all the different 121 00:07:13,240 --> 00:07:16,360 things that we are talking about in this podcast, from kind of 122 00:07:16,360 --> 00:07:20,440 reinforcement learning to embody cognition to many different 123 00:07:20,440 --> 00:07:24,680 things. And so I literally straight away 124 00:07:24,680 --> 00:07:27,200 was like, OK, this person wrote this book. 125 00:07:27,200 --> 00:07:28,920 We need to get this person on the podcast. 126 00:07:29,480 --> 00:07:33,040 And so literally on like Christmas Day, I write an 127 00:07:33,040 --> 00:07:34,600 e-mail. I basically say, I'm really 128 00:07:34,600 --> 00:07:37,720 sorry for writing this on Christmas Day, but I basically 129 00:07:37,720 --> 00:07:41,080 couldn't put down this book. Please, can you come on the 130 00:07:41,080 --> 00:07:46,080 podcast? And she said yes, Sierra Greer 131 00:07:46,720 --> 00:07:50,760 said yes. And that was before I realized 132 00:07:50,760 --> 00:07:53,320 that was her pen name. And she also has published in a 133 00:07:53,320 --> 00:07:57,520 different name previously with like hundreds of thousands of 134 00:07:57,600 --> 00:08:01,640 followers on her Goodreads. So she's a very prominent writer 135 00:08:01,720 --> 00:08:05,160 and we're very, very fortunate to have her on the episode 136 00:08:05,160 --> 00:08:07,120 today. And we had a really great 137 00:08:07,280 --> 00:08:09,480 discussion. But yeah, that's a little bit of 138 00:08:09,480 --> 00:08:12,640 background. Yeah, it was so much fun to talk 139 00:08:12,640 --> 00:08:15,280 to Sierra and you know, the two of us. 140 00:08:15,440 --> 00:08:18,680 We like to get creative with all of our endeavors. 141 00:08:18,680 --> 00:08:22,680 And you're right, this was very different for us and really 142 00:08:22,680 --> 00:08:25,480 worked out well. I feel like maybe this is the 143 00:08:25,480 --> 00:08:27,680 beginning of a new thing. Maybe we'll have to have some 144 00:08:27,680 --> 00:08:32,280 more authors, film makers, all sorts of artists on the podcast 145 00:08:32,320 --> 00:08:33,640 to talk about behavioral science. 146 00:08:33,799 --> 00:08:36,080 Who knew, but it was great. Yeah, he knew. 147 00:08:36,440 --> 00:08:40,720 And I feel like it became such a great kind of pairing to the 148 00:08:40,720 --> 00:08:44,080 likes of Sandra Matz that we had recently who literally said the 149 00:08:44,080 --> 00:08:46,680 quote that the difference between science and science 150 00:08:46,680 --> 00:08:49,880 fiction is timing and so. You love that quote. 151 00:08:50,680 --> 00:08:52,400 Yeah, I love it. I don't think you've had a 152 00:08:52,400 --> 00:08:54,320 conversation where you haven't said that quote. 153 00:08:55,200 --> 00:08:57,440 No, even to my mom, it's so true. 154 00:08:57,440 --> 00:09:01,200 And I do think it's like really encompasses the time we're in 155 00:09:01,200 --> 00:09:04,400 where things are moving so quickly that kind of making 156 00:09:04,400 --> 00:09:08,040 sense of it all. It's sometimes reliant on 157 00:09:08,040 --> 00:09:11,200 someone coming from like the sci-fi world to be like, hey, 158 00:09:11,320 --> 00:09:12,560 here's how we can think about this. 159 00:09:12,800 --> 00:09:16,720 So before we start with episode, one thing that we thought was 160 00:09:16,720 --> 00:09:20,280 kind of interesting was to briefly touch upon reinforcement 161 00:09:20,280 --> 00:09:23,240 learning because we've mentioned it in previous episodes, but we 162 00:09:23,240 --> 00:09:25,560 haven't really explained what it means. 163 00:09:25,960 --> 00:09:30,800 And it's something we cover in the episode around the book 164 00:09:30,800 --> 00:09:32,960 itself, but not so much introducing it. 165 00:09:32,960 --> 00:09:36,720 So let's do a little bit of a reinforcement learning 166 00:09:36,880 --> 00:09:38,960 one-on-one. Eileen, Should we do our best to 167 00:09:38,960 --> 00:09:40,640 make sense of what it means? Awesome. 168 00:09:40,800 --> 00:09:45,800 Yeah. So in some ways this should feel 169 00:09:45,800 --> 00:09:49,520 very familiar to any behavioral scientist because reinforcements 170 00:09:49,520 --> 00:09:52,960 is something you probably heard in your psychology one O 1 171 00:09:52,960 --> 00:09:56,480 courses and probably that your positive reinforcements being a 172 00:09:56,640 --> 00:10:00,160 a big part of that. And so in some ways, that 173 00:10:00,160 --> 00:10:05,040 mirrors what many of the frontier AI models have been 174 00:10:05,840 --> 00:10:12,120 trained with to ensure that they are kind of not only have the 175 00:10:12,120 --> 00:10:16,520 right knowledge base, but that they are making predictions 176 00:10:16,520 --> 00:10:20,200 about what we want to get from the knowledge base in a way that 177 00:10:20,200 --> 00:10:23,360 pleases us. That that makes us feel like we 178 00:10:23,840 --> 00:10:28,360 are getting not only the kind of data in a good way, but also 179 00:10:28,360 --> 00:10:31,160 it's presented in a way that we can understand, that it's not 180 00:10:31,160 --> 00:10:34,160 offensive, that is easy to comprehend, and so on and so 181 00:10:34,160 --> 00:10:36,720 forth. It's really a mechanism for 182 00:10:36,880 --> 00:10:41,320 providing feedback, right? So when the machine does well, 183 00:10:41,640 --> 00:10:45,680 it gets a reward, an incentive. And when it does less well, 184 00:10:45,680 --> 00:10:49,760 maybe it gets a smaller reward. When it does really poorly and 185 00:10:49,760 --> 00:10:53,080 misses, the market could get a negative incentive. 186 00:10:53,080 --> 00:10:56,240 And so really you're just providing feedback to the 187 00:10:56,240 --> 00:11:00,600 outputs that are coming out of the machine, and that helps it 188 00:11:00,600 --> 00:11:05,320 learn over time in a different but similar analogous way to the 189 00:11:05,320 --> 00:11:07,640 way that humans learn through feedback. 190 00:11:07,880 --> 00:11:11,360 And this sort of goes on and on in this feedback loop until you 191 00:11:11,360 --> 00:11:15,160 may get to some sort of optimal outcome in the end. 192 00:11:15,840 --> 00:11:18,080 Yeah. And I think it is fascinating 193 00:11:18,080 --> 00:11:24,960 that if you listen to many of the leading AI spokespeople from 194 00:11:24,960 --> 00:11:28,480 various organizations, they basically credit reinforcement 195 00:11:28,480 --> 00:11:33,480 learning as the main thing that has made the models as good as 196 00:11:33,480 --> 00:11:37,920 they are today in many ways. So obviously pre training in 197 00:11:37,920 --> 00:11:41,360 terms of making sense of this massive data text that these 198 00:11:41,360 --> 00:11:44,000 models have provided are still a big part of it. 199 00:11:44,320 --> 00:11:47,840 But again, with reinforcement learning, it is really what has 200 00:11:47,840 --> 00:11:51,040 made them so good at understanding how to really give 201 00:11:51,040 --> 00:11:55,560 us information in a way that we would get from information in 202 00:11:55,560 --> 00:11:57,840 the way that we communicate and so on. 203 00:11:58,080 --> 00:12:02,600 And that even in some ways reinforces further our unique 204 00:12:02,880 --> 00:12:08,800 quirks and human aspects as well in kind of unintended and 205 00:12:08,800 --> 00:12:11,600 intended ways. So it makes us so these models 206 00:12:11,600 --> 00:12:16,120 are, like, less likely to be rude, say things that are racist 207 00:12:16,160 --> 00:12:19,600 and so on. But conversely, that could also 208 00:12:19,600 --> 00:12:21,880 lead to being a little bit too people pleasing. 209 00:12:21,880 --> 00:12:26,080 But yeah, I do think it's still fascinating that going back to 210 00:12:26,080 --> 00:12:31,000 the days of Skinner, you know, we're using similar concepts to 211 00:12:31,000 --> 00:12:34,600 train these very advanced artificial models, obviously not 212 00:12:34,600 --> 00:12:36,720 in the same way, but with the same principles. 213 00:12:36,880 --> 00:12:38,400 And I think that's really cool. Yeah. 214 00:12:39,400 --> 00:12:44,200 And I think one of the beauties of it is that you don't have to 215 00:12:44,200 --> 00:12:48,760 create a complete plan where you say this is the world. 216 00:12:48,920 --> 00:12:54,440 And robot arm, in order to pick up the cup, you need to extend 217 00:12:54,800 --> 00:12:58,680 this finger and move it this many degrees downwards and so 218 00:12:58,680 --> 00:13:00,720 on. You put the cup on the table and 219 00:13:00,720 --> 00:13:04,080 say, all right, robot, mess around, try some things, see 220 00:13:04,080 --> 00:13:07,000 what works. And once you reach the goal or 221 00:13:07,000 --> 00:13:09,720 reach closer to the goal, you can say, well, that that went 222 00:13:09,720 --> 00:13:13,280 well, Try, try, try that again or try a version of that again. 223 00:13:13,640 --> 00:13:17,440 And this is important because these complete blueprints, the 224 00:13:17,440 --> 00:13:22,520 the sort of top down planning that is essentially impossible. 225 00:13:22,520 --> 00:13:25,480 That's one of those intractable problems that I think the world 226 00:13:25,480 --> 00:13:27,720 has decided this is not ever going to happen in that way. 227 00:13:27,720 --> 00:13:33,000 So we have to use this more ground up exploration mode of 228 00:13:33,040 --> 00:13:35,480 learning and figuring out what works. 229 00:13:35,920 --> 00:13:39,880 And I think that really speaks to the virtue of reinforcement 230 00:13:39,880 --> 00:13:42,840 learning, not just within the world of generative AI, but in 231 00:13:42,840 --> 00:13:46,280 robotics and so on. Yeah, a really funny thing to 232 00:13:46,280 --> 00:13:50,560 say there on robotics is that it's actually one of the things 233 00:13:50,560 --> 00:13:55,280 we've seen in the last year is that actually AI have itself 234 00:13:55,280 --> 00:13:57,600 been used to create the reward functions. 235 00:13:57,600 --> 00:14:00,960 For example, for kind of like twisting a pen around a hand. 236 00:14:01,320 --> 00:14:04,480 Usually that'll be really, really hard to get a robot to 237 00:14:04,480 --> 00:14:09,680 perform and creating the reward function and and set up for that 238 00:14:09,680 --> 00:14:12,440 will be really hard for human to write. 239 00:14:12,680 --> 00:14:15,480 But that is actually something that A has been able to write 240 00:14:15,480 --> 00:14:17,200 better than humans, for example, recently. 241 00:14:17,760 --> 00:14:21,640 And so in some ways, more increasingly, AI is being used 242 00:14:21,640 --> 00:14:26,360 to train AI itself and in some ways creating these like self 243 00:14:26,360 --> 00:14:30,200 critique loops of sort, which is both exciting but also a little 244 00:14:30,200 --> 00:14:33,320 bit scary in some ways as well. So again, you know, we're 245 00:14:33,320 --> 00:14:36,080 getting into sci-fi territory very quickly when we talk about, 246 00:14:36,080 --> 00:14:40,000 like, emerging technology. And of course, these were all 247 00:14:40,000 --> 00:14:43,360 very important themes in Sierra Greer's book Antibot. 248 00:14:44,280 --> 00:14:46,360 Yes, we should use getting to the episode now. 249 00:14:46,360 --> 00:14:48,320 I feel like we have enough preamble. 250 00:14:48,640 --> 00:14:53,480 And so, yes, get ready for a really fun conversation with the 251 00:14:53,480 --> 00:14:57,680 author of the science fiction book Anibot, Sierra Greer 252 00:15:07,120 --> 00:15:11,200 happens to Mugatroid. I'm very excited to say welcome 253 00:15:11,440 --> 00:15:13,400 Sierra to the Behavioral Design podcasts. 254 00:15:14,400 --> 00:15:16,200 Thank you, I'm so excited to be here. 255 00:15:16,880 --> 00:15:23,840 Yeah, we have eagerly awaited this kind of private opportunity 256 00:15:23,840 --> 00:15:27,360 to speak with an author of a book that we both thoroughly 257 00:15:27,360 --> 00:15:32,000 enjoyed and really getting into the themes of the book and also 258 00:15:32,000 --> 00:15:35,560 the maybe the themes that extends beyond Anebot. 259 00:15:36,160 --> 00:15:40,120 And I guess, yeah, it's going to be a real gift to to speak with 260 00:15:40,120 --> 00:15:44,120 you about all of these things. And maybe to set the scene, we 261 00:15:44,120 --> 00:15:47,000 should just dive straight into the world of Annie. 262 00:15:47,000 --> 00:15:54,520 I think so in the book, maybe you can help our listeners get a 263 00:15:54,520 --> 00:15:59,640 sense of who is Annie and what is the world that can we find 264 00:15:59,640 --> 00:16:04,320 Annie in. OK, Annie is a very advanced 265 00:16:04,320 --> 00:16:08,360 female robot who is custom designed to be the perfect 266 00:16:08,360 --> 00:16:13,360 girlfriend for her human owner Doug, and the novel is set in 267 00:16:13,480 --> 00:16:17,240 undetermined future. It's set in New York City and 268 00:16:17,240 --> 00:16:21,040 Annie and Doug share an apartment and Annie is basically 269 00:16:21,040 --> 00:16:25,360 isolated. Doug is ashamed of owning a 270 00:16:25,360 --> 00:16:29,160 robot girlfriend so he doesn't tell anybody about her and yet 271 00:16:29,360 --> 00:16:32,520 he really appreciates her and needs to have a relationship 272 00:16:32,520 --> 00:16:36,800 with her to try to heal from his previous marriage which ended 273 00:16:36,800 --> 00:16:40,960 badly in a divorce. So Annie is autodidactic, which 274 00:16:40,960 --> 00:16:44,560 means she has the ability to teach herself and learn more as 275 00:16:44,560 --> 00:16:48,840 she goes and she is set as a cuddlebunny mode. 276 00:16:48,840 --> 00:16:51,600 She had the potential to be 3 different kinds of robot 277 00:16:52,040 --> 00:16:56,080 cuddlebunny, Abigail which was for cleaning and Nanny which is 278 00:16:56,080 --> 00:16:59,920 for tending children usually. Or you could have her tend 279 00:16:59,920 --> 00:17:03,440 anybody, I guess. But Doug really wants to have 280 00:17:03,600 --> 00:17:06,680 her sexuality being an important part of their relationship. 281 00:17:06,680 --> 00:17:08,440 So she's supposed to be really good at that. 282 00:17:08,800 --> 00:17:12,160 And he can set all kinds of features for He can change her 283 00:17:12,160 --> 00:17:15,000 body shape, he can set her libido. 284 00:17:15,359 --> 00:17:18,359 And her primary objective is to keep him happy. 285 00:17:18,359 --> 00:17:21,760 She is supposed to please him. And if she doesn't, she's 286 00:17:21,800 --> 00:17:26,599 acutely uncomfortable. So that's really the function of 287 00:17:26,599 --> 00:17:29,560 the book, and that's the setup of the relationship between 288 00:17:29,560 --> 00:17:32,120 them. He owns her and she is 289 00:17:32,120 --> 00:17:35,200 programmed to please him. That's what's going on in this 290 00:17:35,200 --> 00:17:37,720 novel. Yeah. 291 00:17:37,720 --> 00:17:39,800 And I think that's that's the thing really. 292 00:17:39,800 --> 00:17:44,000 Well, I think one element that I guess is important is that 293 00:17:44,640 --> 00:17:49,000 we're, from the book start experiencing the world through 294 00:17:49,000 --> 00:17:53,240 her perspective, like through her way of making sense, all of 295 00:17:53,240 --> 00:17:56,120 the world she finds herself in as well because she has 296 00:17:56,320 --> 00:17:58,640 previously been an Abigail or in some ways. 297 00:17:59,440 --> 00:18:05,640 And then she's been turned on as autodidactic, and she's learning 298 00:18:05,920 --> 00:18:08,960 what that also means as things unfold. 299 00:18:08,960 --> 00:18:12,920 In some ways, Yeah. Yeah, I think it's worth noting 300 00:18:12,920 --> 00:18:16,040 that although it feels like it's strictly from her perspective, 301 00:18:16,040 --> 00:18:19,400 it's not told in first person. It's third person, which was 302 00:18:19,400 --> 00:18:22,080 actually really important to me because when I played around 303 00:18:22,080 --> 00:18:25,120 with having the novel told in the first person, it just was 304 00:18:25,120 --> 00:18:28,520 too jarring because then the reader was saying I in their 305 00:18:28,520 --> 00:18:30,320 heads, and, you know, you're not a robot. 306 00:18:30,360 --> 00:18:33,440 So it didn't work that way. But once I shifted her to saying 307 00:18:33,440 --> 00:18:37,240 she, although it's limited third person and it's, I mean, it's 308 00:18:37,240 --> 00:18:39,960 everything she would say and she would hear and she would think 309 00:18:39,960 --> 00:18:43,120 it's not from a narrator's perspective. 310 00:18:43,120 --> 00:18:46,080 So there's a little bit of distance, which is actually 311 00:18:46,080 --> 00:18:49,520 super, super important in this novel, If I can just go on. 312 00:18:49,520 --> 00:18:52,240 The other thing that's really exciting for me about the novel 313 00:18:52,240 --> 00:18:56,680 is that there's a dissonance between what Annie understands 314 00:18:56,680 --> 00:18:59,680 and what the reader understands. Because we're all humans and we 315 00:19:00,080 --> 00:19:03,000 think we know how the world works, but Annie does not. 316 00:19:03,000 --> 00:19:06,920 She only knows what she learns in Doug's apartment, and he 317 00:19:06,920 --> 00:19:10,440 often has her disconnected from the Internet, so he thinks that 318 00:19:10,440 --> 00:19:12,760 gives her a more, like, realistic experience. 319 00:19:13,160 --> 00:19:15,280 But she's so controlled in that way. 320 00:19:15,280 --> 00:19:19,240 And so a lot of people reading the novel kind of squirm because 321 00:19:19,240 --> 00:19:21,760 when he treats her a certain way, she thinks that's normal, 322 00:19:22,480 --> 00:19:24,080 but the readers know that's not normal. 323 00:19:24,200 --> 00:19:27,520 He shouldn't be doing that, or I would have problems with that if 324 00:19:27,520 --> 00:19:29,120 I were in a relationship with that guy. 325 00:19:29,120 --> 00:19:31,640 So there's a lot of tension in that too. 326 00:19:32,880 --> 00:19:38,360 Yeah, and I think there's so many areas around what you 327 00:19:38,360 --> 00:19:40,280 describe the way really keen to dive into. 328 00:19:40,600 --> 00:19:43,960 But before we dive into a specific topic, I I guess also 329 00:19:43,960 --> 00:19:47,520 interesting to understand what inspired you to write this 330 00:19:47,520 --> 00:19:50,600 specific book. There's so much in this book 331 00:19:50,600 --> 00:19:53,880 that is fascinating and interesting to write about and 332 00:19:53,880 --> 00:19:58,400 understand a research. But from your perspective, what 333 00:19:58,400 --> 00:20:01,760 drew you to the story? Like what drew you to tell this? 334 00:20:01,760 --> 00:20:05,440 And was there any specific kind of research or any type of 335 00:20:05,440 --> 00:20:07,080 inspiration that you came across that? 336 00:20:07,560 --> 00:20:12,240 Pulled you towards exploring. This you'll have to go back to 337 00:20:12,720 --> 00:20:16,360 2020, at the beginning of the pandemic, when so many of us 338 00:20:16,360 --> 00:20:21,560 were isolated at home, and I was writing a short story about a 339 00:20:21,560 --> 00:20:25,200 different robot who was more typical, like we would expect 340 00:20:25,200 --> 00:20:27,840 she was a robot maid. And at the end of that short 341 00:20:27,840 --> 00:20:31,320 story, rather, she went in for a check up at Stella Handy, the 342 00:20:31,320 --> 00:20:34,520 company where Annie works, and Annie was in line behind her. 343 00:20:35,000 --> 00:20:37,040 And Annie was a much more advanced robot. 344 00:20:37,040 --> 00:20:39,760 So she just showed up as the moral compass for the short 345 00:20:39,760 --> 00:20:42,440 story. And it was almost an accident 346 00:20:42,440 --> 00:20:45,440 that she showed up there. And, and I realized I couldn't 347 00:20:45,440 --> 00:20:47,200 write anything more about the short story. 348 00:20:47,200 --> 00:20:49,120 It was complete. And there's nowhere else I could 349 00:20:49,120 --> 00:20:51,840 take that character. But I thought, wait a minute, 350 00:20:52,240 --> 00:20:57,120 what if there's this really advanced female robot like who's 351 00:20:57,440 --> 00:20:59,920 making these decisions about what's right and wrong? 352 00:21:00,360 --> 00:21:04,040 And that was the key point for me, because that was somebody 353 00:21:04,040 --> 00:21:08,440 that I could explore. I had been aware back in 2017 354 00:21:08,440 --> 00:21:13,120 that Google Brain had taught itself a new language and that 355 00:21:13,120 --> 00:21:14,600 it hadn't been programmed to do that. 356 00:21:14,600 --> 00:21:17,400 It had found its own way. So that was the first time aware 357 00:21:17,400 --> 00:21:20,760 that computers themselves were actually thinking in a very 358 00:21:20,760 --> 00:21:23,360 creative way. And until then, I I'd really 359 00:21:23,360 --> 00:21:25,520 sort of thought, Oh, well, we'll get these computers that can 360 00:21:25,520 --> 00:21:28,760 compute things and handle huge quantities of information, but I 361 00:21:28,840 --> 00:21:30,440 hadn't thought how creative they could be. 362 00:21:30,720 --> 00:21:34,240 So by 2020 when I was starting the novel anti bot, I was aware 363 00:21:34,640 --> 00:21:38,640 that the computers were making some real leaps, but the general 364 00:21:38,640 --> 00:21:42,200 concept of AI was not really talked about generally. 365 00:21:42,480 --> 00:21:45,920 So like chat TPT didn't even come out until several years 366 00:21:45,920 --> 00:21:49,000 after I was writing this novel. So I was writing it in this sort 367 00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:54,920 of pre AI complete fantasy fiction world and in a way it's 368 00:21:54,920 --> 00:21:57,480 great because I didn't have to think about reality. 369 00:21:57,480 --> 00:22:00,600 I could just write this fantastic novel. 370 00:22:00,760 --> 00:22:03,520 And then just how things work with the world of publishing, 371 00:22:03,560 --> 00:22:06,320 it's like reality caught up with what I had imagined. 372 00:22:06,760 --> 00:22:09,480 That's really how it went. Amazing. 373 00:22:09,520 --> 00:22:12,080 That's such a fun nugget around that short story. 374 00:22:12,160 --> 00:22:16,040 And actually, one of the quotes I saved was this quote from the 375 00:22:16,040 --> 00:22:20,560 book where it's basically from Annie saying I met a strange 376 00:22:20,560 --> 00:22:23,840 Stella at my tune up today. She was in line in front of me. 377 00:22:23,840 --> 00:22:26,400 Her name was actually Stella, like her owner had zero 378 00:22:26,640 --> 00:22:29,680 imagination, but she was sentient like me. 379 00:22:30,840 --> 00:22:32,840 And so. So that was the Stella of that 380 00:22:32,840 --> 00:22:33,640 story. Yeah. 381 00:22:34,040 --> 00:22:35,800 Yes, exactly. That's her. 382 00:22:36,160 --> 00:22:38,160 She, like, really existed in the same world. 383 00:22:38,760 --> 00:22:40,560 Yeah. Very cool. 384 00:22:41,800 --> 00:22:47,240 And in terms of, I guess, world building, how did you decide the 385 00:22:47,240 --> 00:22:49,920 context where we find Annie and Doug? 386 00:22:49,920 --> 00:22:53,000 I think you spoken to that a little bit, I guess, but I think 387 00:22:53,000 --> 00:22:56,440 there's quite a lot of things I can imagine may that something 388 00:22:56,440 --> 00:22:59,760 interesting to explore and especially around maybe you you 389 00:22:59,760 --> 00:23:01,640 spoke about maybe there's societal trends from a 390 00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:06,360 technological standpoint, but we also probably see some parts of 391 00:23:06,360 --> 00:23:09,360 the story reflecting kind of other societal trends or 392 00:23:09,360 --> 00:23:12,600 cultural norms or certain things that I think the novel critiques 393 00:23:12,600 --> 00:23:13,720 in a very interesting way. Yeah. 394 00:23:14,840 --> 00:23:17,120 Well, thank you. I'm glad you think it's working. 395 00:23:17,560 --> 00:23:24,720 I write varying organically from the characters, and it's only in 396 00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:27,760 retrospect that I go back and see the things that are there 397 00:23:27,760 --> 00:23:29,880 and I can tease out certain elements. 398 00:23:30,200 --> 00:23:33,800 And I was genuinely interested in the relationship between this 399 00:23:33,800 --> 00:23:39,360 man and this AI woman. And it's that relationship that 400 00:23:39,360 --> 00:23:42,080 really intrigued me and the power dynamics between them, 401 00:23:42,080 --> 00:23:46,400 because she's really smart and she has a lot of power because 402 00:23:46,400 --> 00:23:49,280 of how smart she is. And she has a lot of power 403 00:23:49,280 --> 00:23:52,200 because she's sexually so attractive to him too. 404 00:23:52,200 --> 00:23:56,320 So on the other hand, he really owns her and controls her. 405 00:23:56,320 --> 00:24:00,600 So she's helpless in those ways. And then you think about why he 406 00:24:00,600 --> 00:24:03,160 would be interested in having a relationship like that with the 407 00:24:03,160 --> 00:24:05,480 power imbalance that's so skewed. 408 00:24:05,480 --> 00:24:07,920 And that speaks a lot to who he is. 409 00:24:08,280 --> 00:24:11,920 So by exploring this, I was really thinking about what 410 00:24:11,920 --> 00:24:14,880 societal norms there are for men and women in relationships, 411 00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:17,880 especially for Doug. I mean, he's a complicated 412 00:24:18,080 --> 00:24:21,680 character. And I think he really is a 413 00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:27,600 symptom of American Society in that he feels, well, it's hard 414 00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:29,840 because I don't want to generalize completely, but he 415 00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:32,520 feels very natural to me that he's a person who could really 416 00:24:32,520 --> 00:24:35,440 exist. And I think it's interesting to 417 00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:38,200 contemplate that through the novel, we see what he's like in 418 00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:40,480 private when he thinks nobody is looking. 419 00:24:40,480 --> 00:24:42,800 Cuz he really at the beginning of the novel, doesn't think of 420 00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:45,800 any as human at all. He really considers her most 421 00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:48,360 like a toaster. So it's like if you think about 422 00:24:48,360 --> 00:24:52,400 what you're like when you're alone at home, you might be 423 00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:55,040 exactly the same as the person you are on the street, but you 424 00:24:55,040 --> 00:24:57,640 might be a little more self indulgent or a little more lazy 425 00:24:57,640 --> 00:25:00,160 or a little more crude or who knows what you might be when 426 00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:03,000 you're at home. And we get to see that through 427 00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:05,240 Andy's eyes. We see what Doug is like at his 428 00:25:05,240 --> 00:25:08,160 best and at his worst in private. 429 00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:12,040 So I think I've veered a little bit away from your question, but 430 00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:17,360 because the novel has this relationship at the center of 431 00:25:17,360 --> 00:25:19,920 it, that's what I focused on while I was writing. 432 00:25:20,080 --> 00:25:23,440 And then the stuff about society or what was happening in in New 433 00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:27,600 York or what developments are happening with technology, those 434 00:25:27,600 --> 00:25:30,720 to me are all peripheral. They're, they're there, but 435 00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:33,000 they're there to support the story, which is really a 436 00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:36,040 relationship story. It's actually really fun and 437 00:25:36,040 --> 00:25:38,840 interesting way to write because I, I just focused on that and 438 00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:43,440 because it's so specific, it ends up having these universal 439 00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:45,520 qualities. But I, I don't start with the 440 00:25:45,520 --> 00:25:47,880 universal. I start with the specific 441 00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:50,480 relationship and see what they can talk about day-to-day. 442 00:25:50,520 --> 00:25:52,640 What's he like when he bumps his head on a cabinet? 443 00:25:53,080 --> 00:25:55,280 What, what's it like? Really small. 444 00:25:55,280 --> 00:26:00,040 That's where I think. And the this power dynamic is 445 00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:03,800 particularly interesting in the context of Annie and her 446 00:26:03,800 --> 00:26:08,400 development and as she grows from being a more basic bot, 447 00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:11,480 even though she, you know, begins out in the story as 448 00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:14,080 autodidactic and somewhat sentient. 449 00:26:14,560 --> 00:26:18,960 She, you know, like you said, she is owned by Doug, her owner. 450 00:26:18,960 --> 00:26:20,600 She has all of these constraints. 451 00:26:21,080 --> 00:26:24,720 She's very in tune with his displeasure. 452 00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:29,040 She even has this displeasure sensitivity meter where she's 453 00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:33,280 constantly checking in and adjusting her behaviour based on 454 00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:39,240 how he responds and is like very locked into how he's doing. 455 00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:42,800 And honestly, I think this displeasure sensitivity meter 456 00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:46,280 was one of the most interesting things to me about your book. 457 00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:50,680 Maybe can you share some of your reasoning behind this and how 458 00:26:51,280 --> 00:26:54,600 how you how you came up with it, what its purpose is, and maybe 459 00:26:54,600 --> 00:26:57,480 even also, you know, how it evolves throughout the book. 460 00:26:57,480 --> 00:27:00,800 I noticed that she's zeroing in on numbers. 461 00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:04,080 Oh, he has a displeasure sensitivity of three and it 462 00:27:04,080 --> 00:27:09,080 moved from 3 to 0 based on her behaviour, but then that sort of 463 00:27:09,080 --> 00:27:13,200 thinking dissolves as she grows and learns and becomes more 464 00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:15,560 independent. She's still sensitive to his 465 00:27:15,560 --> 00:27:19,600 displeasure while this is turned on, but it does change over 466 00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:20,640 time. It does. 467 00:27:20,760 --> 00:27:23,240 It shifts a little bit. I'm really glad you picked up on 468 00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:25,360 that. But partly it's just because 469 00:27:25,360 --> 00:27:28,480 she's able to control his pleasure so much. 470 00:27:28,560 --> 00:27:33,400 She's able to get him down to A1 or A2 most of the time because 471 00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:37,080 she knows how to do that. But when it's up higher and she 472 00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:40,800 has to react to that, I think it really talks about how they've 473 00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:42,520 learned. I mean, she's learned from him. 474 00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:46,120 He's consistent in a way in what he doesn't like. 475 00:27:46,320 --> 00:27:49,120 Yeah, he's a rigid person. So when she learns what he 476 00:27:49,120 --> 00:27:50,720 doesn't like, she can respond to that. 477 00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:53,840 I loved putting a numeric scale to that. 478 00:27:53,960 --> 00:27:56,680 That just was really fun. There's a numeric scale for her 479 00:27:56,680 --> 00:27:59,680 libido, too. So the two of those things 480 00:27:59,960 --> 00:28:02,480 contrasting to each other is, I don't know, it's just funny. 481 00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:04,840 It's sort of novel. I was like, well, this could 482 00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:07,200 work. And then we think of robots or 483 00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:11,640 computer intelligence as being based on a numeric system. 484 00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:14,760 So it seems like it just seemed natural that she would come up 485 00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:18,600 with a numeric system to rate emotions that she doesn't 486 00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:21,080 understand, so she would like come up with a scale for them. 487 00:28:21,160 --> 00:28:23,200 So it just seems like a logical thing to do. 488 00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:26,520 Yeah. And I think that speaks to what 489 00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:29,040 a lot of people maybe have experienced with this large 490 00:28:29,040 --> 00:28:31,000 language models that you can set a temperature, for example, and 491 00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:36,160 that adjusts their level of creativity versus reliability, 492 00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:37,920 for example. So like it really is something 493 00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:41,600 that is happening on a databases today in maybe not exactly that 494 00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:44,160 way, but in very much similar way. 495 00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:47,400 But I guess another thing I just want to say around specifically 496 00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:52,880 this is I actually felt on a personal level, I felt quite 497 00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:58,840 seen in a way where I had experienced or read similar kind 498 00:28:58,840 --> 00:29:02,560 of scenarios of someone maybe being in a power imbalance or 499 00:29:02,560 --> 00:29:06,400 someone maybe trying to what I would almost call like some of 500 00:29:06,560 --> 00:29:12,040 external emotional regulation where the person in itself is. 501 00:29:13,040 --> 00:29:17,600 Let's say in this case, Doug, he is the one who has struggling 502 00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:18,880 with certain emotions for somebody. 503 00:29:18,880 --> 00:29:21,320 He's experiencing emotion. But in some ways, it's kind of 504 00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:26,040 like he's outsourcing inadvertently to Annie to be 505 00:29:26,040 --> 00:29:29,640 there to take him down, Like she's supposed to understand 506 00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:32,960 when he's approaching being agitated, annoyed, frustrated, 507 00:29:33,280 --> 00:29:35,480 and then she is supposed to be there to bring it back. 508 00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:39,080 And I, on a personal level, have experienced quite a lot of that 509 00:29:39,080 --> 00:29:43,680 in growing up being in a family dynamic where I think both me 510 00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:46,400 but also some siblings were maybe acting in some ways like 511 00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:49,680 that for especially a parent. And I think we put it on 512 00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:53,560 ourselves to carry that with us. And it was only afterwards when 513 00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:56,160 we grew up that we'd have been able to maybe talk about that 514 00:29:56,160 --> 00:29:58,960 and move past that. But it was really interesting to 515 00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:02,400 read that experience in such an explicit way, yeah. 516 00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:05,760 Yeah. And The thing is that you can do 517 00:30:05,760 --> 00:30:09,400 that with fiction and you can do that with a robot character. 518 00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:13,320 It's hard to pull that off, I think, with two humans. 519 00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:16,920 But because we understood she was a robot and she was like 520 00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:20,560 programmed, like we think of programming for computers, she 521 00:30:20,560 --> 00:30:23,200 was programmed to do that. But in fact, the rest of us are 522 00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:25,200 programmed too. It's just a behavioral 523 00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:28,280 programming that we have. So with you and your siblings, 524 00:30:28,720 --> 00:30:31,720 you were programmed to make your lives as comfortable as 525 00:30:31,720 --> 00:30:34,800 possible, which meant in as much as you could, you would 526 00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:36,600 influence the other people around you. 527 00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:39,920 And we all do that. We do that in our sibling 528 00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:43,080 relationships with our parents. If we're in long term 529 00:30:43,080 --> 00:30:45,960 relationships, we do that too. We gauge the room. 530 00:30:46,360 --> 00:30:48,480 It's I think perfectly natural to do that. 531 00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:50,640 And for some people it's more of a survival skill. 532 00:30:50,640 --> 00:30:54,440 So then their perception of other people's realities or 533 00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:56,880 their own danger can be very acute. 534 00:30:57,240 --> 00:31:00,880 So yeah, I know some people, they walk into a room even with 535 00:31:00,880 --> 00:31:03,600 strangers and they're like, look, and they need to know 536 00:31:03,600 --> 00:31:06,760 where the exits are because they're accustomed to feeling 537 00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:08,880 like they're in danger. So they know what that's like. 538 00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:13,120 And that's programming because I had created a character who was 539 00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:16,040 a robot. It was like easier to take. 540 00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:20,720 I mean, if I had set up a book about a relationship between a 541 00:31:20,720 --> 00:31:24,040 man and a woman, where a man owned a woman, she was a human 542 00:31:24,040 --> 00:31:25,560 woman. We knew that from the get go. 543 00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:28,160 I don't think anybody would even be interested. 544 00:31:28,160 --> 00:31:31,520 They'd be like, So what? It's a book about an abusive 545 00:31:31,520 --> 00:31:33,920 relationship. And sadly, we've become pretty 546 00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:36,320 desensitized to that as a society. 547 00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:38,320 Or we just don't want to see that. 548 00:31:38,320 --> 00:31:41,600 It's too uncomfortable to see. But because she's a robot, 549 00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:44,560 there's actually something. And she's also very playful. 550 00:31:45,280 --> 00:31:48,640 It's like, OK to step into her shoes thinking, oh, well, this 551 00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:51,520 is just a game. Oh, this is this is so quirky. 552 00:31:51,520 --> 00:31:55,040 Oh, she's just a sex robot who really cares about her? 553 00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:58,640 But then gradually you, but you really do care about her. 554 00:31:58,640 --> 00:32:00,920 And then what does that say about us? 555 00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:06,280 It's a mind game, really. It is, and as a reader you 556 00:32:06,280 --> 00:32:08,800 experience quite a bit of empathy. 557 00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:12,160 Even not written in the first person. 558 00:32:12,160 --> 00:32:17,640 You can really understand what she's going through and these 559 00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:21,680 this back and forth with what is he doing and how she's feeling 560 00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:23,600 to the extent that she is feeling. 561 00:32:23,760 --> 00:32:25,720 And certainly as that goes over time. 562 00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:30,960 But so with all of these similarities to humans and how 563 00:32:30,960 --> 00:32:36,320 you've written the this AI woman, it really makes me think 564 00:32:36,320 --> 00:32:39,640 about what it means to be human at all, right. 565 00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:44,880 And as we think about artificial general intelligence and the way 566 00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:49,960 the the world is moving and how this definition is of course 567 00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:53,400 shifting over time, it's something that I think a lot 568 00:32:53,400 --> 00:32:57,280 about in my work, but also is really coming through in your 569 00:32:57,280 --> 00:32:59,400 novel. And so there are some of the 570 00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:02,520 obvious things that are artificial, like the very 571 00:33:02,520 --> 00:33:04,760 physical, right? Like she can't sweat, she can't 572 00:33:05,040 --> 00:33:07,280 digest food. She's she has to adjust her 573 00:33:07,280 --> 00:33:11,240 temperature to be more to be 98.7° and so on. 574 00:33:11,760 --> 00:33:16,120 Or she has these rules that she can't disobey in terms of not 575 00:33:16,120 --> 00:33:20,480 leaving the house or if her owner says don't talk about me 576 00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:23,040 to anyone else, don't talk about my life. 577 00:33:23,040 --> 00:33:27,120 She has to perform these mental gymnastics to get around and 578 00:33:27,120 --> 00:33:29,120 make sure that she obeys his commands. 579 00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:33,440 But then there are these other things like the displeasure 580 00:33:33,760 --> 00:33:40,320 sensitivity, which feel much more in a Gray area where OK, 581 00:33:40,320 --> 00:33:44,400 humans do this but not, as you know, in an explicit numerical 582 00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:49,360 way. Or when she has some pseudo 583 00:33:49,640 --> 00:33:53,600 social interactions when she gets to speak to some other AIS, 584 00:33:53,600 --> 00:33:58,200 her mood brightens. When she gets to wander and 585 00:33:58,200 --> 00:34:02,160 explore the world, her curiosity is peaked and she gets lots of 586 00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:05,640 enjoyment from this exploration. There are certain things that 587 00:34:05,640 --> 00:34:12,800 seem very human that there is this very strong commonality 588 00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:15,920 between the two. And I guess I'm curious where 589 00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:20,560 you draw the line between human and artificial. 590 00:34:22,120 --> 00:34:26,719 Well, I feel like I tried to put the complexity of that in the 591 00:34:26,719 --> 00:34:29,440 novel. I feel like I wanted to pose the 592 00:34:29,440 --> 00:34:33,840 questions and I I don't really have answers to that. 593 00:34:34,120 --> 00:34:38,040 I mean I think I accept that humans who are born as human are 594 00:34:38,040 --> 00:34:39,360 human. I'm OK with that. 595 00:34:39,960 --> 00:34:45,480 But I don't know which non human things should be treated or have 596 00:34:45,480 --> 00:34:47,760 the same rights as human. I would really like to start 597 00:34:47,760 --> 00:34:51,080 with having all humans treated like they have the rights they 598 00:34:51,080 --> 00:34:53,120 deserve. I would really be happy with 599 00:34:53,120 --> 00:34:56,199 that. And I think when we have a book 600 00:34:56,800 --> 00:35:00,080 like Antibot, when it's clear which thing at least starts out 601 00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:04,120 not being human, it also makes us think about how we treat each 602 00:35:04,120 --> 00:35:06,400 other. You know, because there are some 603 00:35:06,400 --> 00:35:10,720 people that are dismissed or don't have rights, and there are 604 00:35:10,720 --> 00:35:14,840 some people we expect to be abusive or we tolerate their 605 00:35:14,840 --> 00:35:18,000 abuse because of what's been accepted in the past. 606 00:35:18,560 --> 00:35:22,960 But actually it's pretty, it's now fun for Doug to be who he is 607 00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:27,800 either I would say he's not a happy person in a good place. 608 00:35:28,160 --> 00:35:33,400 So having the power he has does not, I don't know, it doesn't 609 00:35:33,400 --> 00:35:36,640 fulfill who he could be as his best version of himself. 610 00:35:37,040 --> 00:35:40,440 So it gets really complicated. This seems sort of obvious to 611 00:35:40,440 --> 00:35:43,680 say, but it does. It's complicated for Doug when 612 00:35:43,680 --> 00:35:47,400 he has somebody he owns, and it's complicated for Annie when 613 00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:51,920 she is owned. And so I guess that's what I 614 00:35:51,960 --> 00:35:55,040 wanted to explore, and I don't have all the answers for that at 615 00:35:55,040 --> 00:35:59,560 all. I think there's one very 616 00:35:59,560 --> 00:36:04,120 interesting scene where Doug gets upset with her and she 617 00:36:04,120 --> 00:36:06,800 apologizes. I think it may have been in the 618 00:36:06,800 --> 00:36:10,200 context of she wasn't being clean enough. 619 00:36:10,200 --> 00:36:12,280 He has this absurd standard of cleanliness. 620 00:36:12,640 --> 00:36:17,480 And so she apologizes to him and he says you're more human than a 621 00:36:17,480 --> 00:36:22,360 lot of people I know. And this is because his ex-wife, 622 00:36:22,360 --> 00:36:26,760 who he's still very upset about, he says she wouldn't have 623 00:36:26,760 --> 00:36:30,680 admitted to a mistake. And Annie then responds, well, 624 00:36:30,680 --> 00:36:33,440 maybe she didn't want your forgiveness as much as I do, 625 00:36:33,720 --> 00:36:35,520 which of which of course is programmed. 626 00:36:35,920 --> 00:36:41,400 And I just found this deep irony in this interaction because 627 00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:44,840 apologizing for something that you really, really shouldn't 628 00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:48,000 apologize for like that doesn't actually make you more human. 629 00:36:48,000 --> 00:36:53,680 He has this very skewed idea of what it is to be human and like 630 00:36:53,680 --> 00:36:56,560 what he wants his girlfriend to be isn't is not actually human 631 00:36:56,560 --> 00:36:58,320 he wants. What does he want? 632 00:36:59,240 --> 00:37:04,560 Yeah, he gets confused by that because he thinks he wants this 633 00:37:04,720 --> 00:37:09,120 charming, funny, sexy person to be his girlfriend, but he also 634 00:37:09,120 --> 00:37:13,400 wants her to be more human. So as he develops, he as she 635 00:37:13,400 --> 00:37:18,080 develops and changes, he's torn because he actually does like 636 00:37:18,560 --> 00:37:23,000 who she's turning out to be, but she's starting to challenge him 637 00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:25,000 more. And he actually, he also says to 638 00:37:25,000 --> 00:37:27,280 her, I don't want you to let me be an asshole. 639 00:37:27,760 --> 00:37:30,720 And he's torn. He doesn't really know what he 640 00:37:30,720 --> 00:37:33,040 needs. He needs a lot more therapy, 641 00:37:33,040 --> 00:37:36,320 frankly, to get where he needs to go. 642 00:37:36,840 --> 00:37:40,840 If only he didn't stop going to going to those sessions. 643 00:37:41,360 --> 00:37:45,040 Yeah, he thought he had enough, but I mean, he was willing to 644 00:37:45,040 --> 00:37:47,400 go. So kudos to him for that. 645 00:37:47,960 --> 00:37:50,520 And I think that Doug makes a lot of progress through the 646 00:37:50,520 --> 00:37:53,320 book. Some of my readers might be 647 00:37:53,320 --> 00:37:56,080 upset to hear that because some people don't think he goes 648 00:37:56,080 --> 00:37:59,200 nearly far enough. They see him as a monster, and 649 00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:02,240 they just hold that he's a monster forever. 650 00:38:03,280 --> 00:38:05,200 But I tried to write a character who was. 651 00:38:05,480 --> 00:38:08,160 I tried to write somebody who was changing and evolving. 652 00:38:08,800 --> 00:38:11,040 Yeah. I felt there was. 653 00:38:11,440 --> 00:38:15,640 Oh good, that 2 two people think that he had changed. 654 00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:19,160 That's we'll go with that. I thought that he was very 655 00:38:19,160 --> 00:38:24,640 emotionally complex and how he grows and sure, he depends on 656 00:38:24,640 --> 00:38:29,160 Annie in a very unhealthy way, but he tries, right? 657 00:38:29,160 --> 00:38:32,200 He I don't, he's certainly not a complete monster. 658 00:38:32,560 --> 00:38:36,000 You there are definitely some bright spots where you can see. 659 00:38:36,000 --> 00:38:40,080 OK, he does give her some independence when he starts to 660 00:38:40,360 --> 00:38:44,120 let her wander, and he has to do it in his slow, gradual way. 661 00:38:44,120 --> 00:38:48,240 But he does try. He doesn't fully get it, but he 662 00:38:48,240 --> 00:38:49,040 tries. He doesn't. 663 00:38:49,040 --> 00:38:49,880 Fully get it. Yeah. 664 00:38:50,160 --> 00:38:53,320 And you could say that he tries because that will make her more 665 00:38:53,320 --> 00:38:57,560 desirable to him, the version of her that's able to wander and 666 00:38:57,600 --> 00:39:00,800 everything that makes her more pleasurable to him. 667 00:39:01,440 --> 00:39:04,320 But he does reach a point where he understands what he finally 668 00:39:04,320 --> 00:39:08,880 needs to do. And at risk of spoiling things, 669 00:39:09,840 --> 00:39:12,280 yeah, he reaches the point where he does what he needs to do. 670 00:39:12,520 --> 00:39:14,480 So. Yeah. 671 00:39:14,480 --> 00:39:16,920 And it's good for both of them. It's good for them both. 672 00:39:18,360 --> 00:39:20,600 But like, I think you're speaking to something where in 673 00:39:20,600 --> 00:39:23,560 terms of dog or in general in the book, I think a lot of 674 00:39:23,560 --> 00:39:25,240 things are explored. I think there are somewhat like 675 00:39:25,600 --> 00:39:29,120 maybe paradoxes that exist in like how we think about things 676 00:39:29,120 --> 00:39:34,880 in terms of in one way Annie is a robot on Android or some form 677 00:39:34,880 --> 00:39:39,960 of like inanimate object, right? So you can say that whatever dog 678 00:39:39,960 --> 00:39:47,240 does to an inanimate object, it's up to him in some ways, but 679 00:39:47,240 --> 00:39:51,320 other like we exist in this way of the paradox is that we both 680 00:39:51,760 --> 00:39:55,400 in some context, we're really good at dehumanizing humans. 681 00:39:55,400 --> 00:39:57,920 Like we can. Sadly, we've been shown in 682 00:39:57,920 --> 00:40:01,240 history that we're really good at that, but we're also really 683 00:40:01,240 --> 00:40:04,520 good at anthropomorphizing inanimate objects and like 684 00:40:04,520 --> 00:40:07,800 breathing a lot of life into things that are like on surface 685 00:40:07,800 --> 00:40:11,760 level for some people or others can seem completely use 686 00:40:11,760 --> 00:40:14,920 something inhuman or in not animate. 687 00:40:15,720 --> 00:40:20,520 But we have this in inbuilt capacity to to breathe in so 688 00:40:20,520 --> 00:40:22,720 much life into inanimate objects. 689 00:40:22,720 --> 00:40:24,920 And I think that is something, the really fascinating thing 690 00:40:24,920 --> 00:40:27,480 that that kind of you're forced to grapple with in a book. 691 00:40:28,320 --> 00:40:31,280 Yeah, it's true. It's almost like we create these 692 00:40:31,280 --> 00:40:33,720 mirrors for ourselves. We like reach out and try to 693 00:40:33,720 --> 00:40:37,080 find something that will give us our humanity back or something 694 00:40:37,080 --> 00:40:40,280 we can love back. Because there's some concept 695 00:40:40,280 --> 00:40:43,080 about love that you feel loved if you're seen clearly. 696 00:40:43,400 --> 00:40:47,320 And but certainly it is nice when somebody seems to really 697 00:40:47,320 --> 00:40:50,280 understand you. And if it's your cat that 698 00:40:50,280 --> 00:40:52,560 understands you or your dog that understands you, that's pretty 699 00:40:52,560 --> 00:40:54,480 appealing. You're pretty likely to love 700 00:40:54,480 --> 00:40:58,160 your dog if your dog seems to understand you and you can see 701 00:40:58,160 --> 00:41:02,040 why, you know, if your robot seems to understand you, you 702 00:41:02,040 --> 00:41:04,800 would probably be drawn to love your robot too. 703 00:41:04,800 --> 00:41:08,200 I think that's pretty natural. And aren't there hospitals where 704 00:41:08,560 --> 00:41:12,920 robot pets are provided to the patients because that cheers and 705 00:41:12,920 --> 00:41:16,840 comforts the patients to have these robot pets that seem 706 00:41:17,320 --> 00:41:20,680 cuddly and loving? Yeah, I think the the study that 707 00:41:20,680 --> 00:41:23,240 has been known this was with seals that were provided for 708 00:41:23,240 --> 00:41:26,960 like elderly people in Japan, I believe, where they there was 709 00:41:27,120 --> 00:41:28,960 shown to have positive effects. So. 710 00:41:28,960 --> 00:41:31,600 So one thing that we will probably speak to more about in 711 00:41:31,600 --> 00:41:37,000 the the intro is that this book so beautifully captures 712 00:41:37,600 --> 00:41:40,360 reinforcement learning. And reinforcement learning is 713 00:41:40,360 --> 00:41:44,960 something that exists very fascinately across both, 714 00:41:45,240 --> 00:41:47,000 something that is applied to humans. 715 00:41:47,000 --> 00:41:50,440 Of course, we think about it in terms of very classical human 716 00:41:51,240 --> 00:41:54,680 behavioral or behaviorism, but obviously that also extends to 717 00:41:55,120 --> 00:41:56,760 animals. Like a lot of experiments 718 00:41:56,760 --> 00:41:59,000 initially were done regarding like animals. 719 00:41:59,440 --> 00:42:03,640 And then now we're living in a world where if you are in any 720 00:42:03,640 --> 00:42:06,640 way following AI, the most is reinforcement learning. 721 00:42:06,760 --> 00:42:08,920 But all of these models that are currently being like the 722 00:42:08,920 --> 00:42:12,800 frontier models, the Shachiptis of the world, what helped them 723 00:42:12,800 --> 00:42:16,120 to become what they are today is because they were. 724 00:42:17,680 --> 00:42:20,800 Punished and rewarded for. Certain things, they're 725 00:42:20,800 --> 00:42:24,880 basically when Shachipti writes you something, it's predicting 726 00:42:25,040 --> 00:42:27,600 what will make you the most happy because it's been 727 00:42:27,800 --> 00:42:30,200 providing a bunch of stuff to a lot of humans before. 728 00:42:30,440 --> 00:42:33,440 And sometimes the humans have given it a reward and sometimes 729 00:42:33,440 --> 00:42:35,920 it hasn't. And so it's learned, OK, this is 730 00:42:35,920 --> 00:42:38,120 what makes human happen. And that's not always telling 731 00:42:38,120 --> 00:42:40,560 the truth, for example. So that's why we see like these 732 00:42:40,560 --> 00:42:44,720 chat bots sometimes bending the truth and and that comes into 733 00:42:45,520 --> 00:42:47,240 the book about secrets, for example. 734 00:42:47,360 --> 00:42:51,440 So yeah, I'm interested. Did you think about this idea 735 00:42:51,440 --> 00:42:54,920 around reinforcement learning when you were setting up the the 736 00:42:54,920 --> 00:42:58,720 story or Anis experience? Well, I'm I was familiar. 737 00:42:58,720 --> 00:43:02,320 With it from having taken psych classes back in college. 738 00:43:02,520 --> 00:43:05,840 So, and it's what you do when you try to parent your children, 739 00:43:05,840 --> 00:43:09,080 actually, you try to reinforce their good behavior and you 740 00:43:09,080 --> 00:43:12,480 actually try to like downplay. Or if if you're seeing too much 741 00:43:12,480 --> 00:43:16,000 bad behavior from your kids and you are aware that they get 742 00:43:16,000 --> 00:43:18,120 attention for that, you're supposed to sort of ignore them. 743 00:43:18,240 --> 00:43:21,200 But then reinforce the 90% of the time when they're doing 744 00:43:21,200 --> 00:43:23,200 great things. And then eventually that weeds 745 00:43:23,200 --> 00:43:24,960 it out. So I was certainly aware of the 746 00:43:24,960 --> 00:43:28,200 concept and definitely that's what goes on in the relationship 747 00:43:28,200 --> 00:43:30,920 with Annie and Doug. So, yeah, I was definitely aware 748 00:43:30,920 --> 00:43:31,680 of that. Yeah. 749 00:43:31,680 --> 00:43:35,000 And she was kind of, I think. Her level of colored punishment 750 00:43:35,080 --> 00:43:38,160 is also variable to his experience. 751 00:43:38,160 --> 00:43:41,320 Like it feels a little bit bad for her if he gets to like a 752 00:43:41,320 --> 00:43:47,640 2IN, maybe agitation, but it feels almost excruciating when 753 00:43:47,640 --> 00:43:48,960 he gets like higher up the scale. 754 00:43:49,640 --> 00:43:53,080 Yeah, definitely. Yeah, yeah. 755 00:43:53,800 --> 00:43:57,920 And 1:00. Thing that maybe goes into this 756 00:43:57,920 --> 00:44:01,400 in an interesting way is something that I found probably 757 00:44:01,400 --> 00:44:06,040 the maybe hardest to kind of just grapple with as you become. 758 00:44:06,040 --> 00:44:12,080 So you build so much empathy for Annie and then you really notice 759 00:44:12,080 --> 00:44:16,720 that part of the programming that she is existing in is 760 00:44:16,720 --> 00:44:20,360 basically where gas lighting is kind of built in, in some ways 761 00:44:20,360 --> 00:44:22,680 where she can have an experience. 762 00:44:22,680 --> 00:44:26,040 And as you said, like we as readers will speak to what 763 00:44:26,040 --> 00:44:30,800 should be the objective maybe or our subjective view of what is 764 00:44:30,800 --> 00:44:32,240 right or wrong to do in certain areas. 765 00:44:32,240 --> 00:44:35,480 But she relies on Doug and he can gaslights. 766 00:44:36,360 --> 00:44:39,640 And I mean, it's interesting because we're in this day and 767 00:44:39,640 --> 00:44:42,720 age when we're talking about ethics and AI, the thing we're 768 00:44:42,720 --> 00:44:47,120 talking about mostly is ethics when it comes to still like are 769 00:44:47,120 --> 00:44:49,560 we having a diverse sample of data when we're creating the 770 00:44:49,560 --> 00:44:52,120 model? Are we having like a good 771 00:44:52,600 --> 00:44:55,520 equitable representation in how the model communicates and how 772 00:44:55,560 --> 00:44:58,360 it represents the world? But we're still a little bit of 773 00:44:58,360 --> 00:45:01,680 steps away from really thinking about like what if ethics when 774 00:45:01,680 --> 00:45:04,600 it comes to programming AI, like is it ethical to programming 775 00:45:04,600 --> 00:45:07,480 this gas lighting, for example, but. 776 00:45:07,760 --> 00:45:10,040 I think related to. What you were just saying, part 777 00:45:10,040 --> 00:45:14,720 of that is just because her worldview is dictated by all 778 00:45:14,720 --> 00:45:18,200 that she experiences, and all that she experiences is her 779 00:45:18,200 --> 00:45:21,200 owner's perspective, right? That that's sort of the same 780 00:45:21,200 --> 00:45:25,760 thing as if all you see are your training data, then that's all 781 00:45:25,760 --> 00:45:27,760 you know, You don't know how to go beyond that. 782 00:45:28,720 --> 00:45:30,280 Yeah. Although I mean. 783 00:45:31,160 --> 00:45:33,880 Can you say you don't know how to go beyond that because you're 784 00:45:34,240 --> 00:45:37,200 because these are computers that are able to go beyond, they are 785 00:45:37,200 --> 00:45:39,080 making leaps that we don't anticipate. 786 00:45:39,080 --> 00:45:43,240 So I think when people talk about including ethics in the 787 00:45:43,240 --> 00:45:47,160 basic programming or the basic directives of the AI Miles, I 788 00:45:47,160 --> 00:45:50,720 think that's a great idea. If you can figure out some 789 00:45:50,720 --> 00:45:53,200 version of what is right or wrong or what would serve the 790 00:45:53,200 --> 00:45:56,640 most good or what will have the best long term consequences. 791 00:45:56,640 --> 00:45:59,760 I think thinking about that and planning some of that in would 792 00:45:59,760 --> 00:46:02,680 be fabulous. I. 793 00:46:02,680 --> 00:46:05,640 Don't know, try to make them. Good people, these competitors, 794 00:46:05,840 --> 00:46:08,080 you know? Yeah, but like it's a good. 795 00:46:08,520 --> 00:46:12,160 AI one that again, it's agreeable like in terms of you 796 00:46:12,160 --> 00:46:15,240 could today, even with the most advanced Shahjibati, for 797 00:46:15,240 --> 00:46:19,280 example, you could say what is some fact and he will tell you 798 00:46:19,280 --> 00:46:21,480 something and then you say, no, that is not true. 799 00:46:21,880 --> 00:46:25,160 This is true and he will say, I'm so sorry, you're right, the 800 00:46:25,160 --> 00:46:27,480 world is flat or whatever you've told it. 801 00:46:27,480 --> 00:46:29,880 They would agree with you because you're the owner in that 802 00:46:29,880 --> 00:46:32,880 case, like you're Doug and you have that kind of ability to 803 00:46:32,880 --> 00:46:35,680 gaslight. So the final thing I wanted to 804 00:46:35,680 --> 00:46:39,200 ask you before we get into a quick fire round is something 805 00:46:39,200 --> 00:46:44,360 that I think is interesting in that where is not a a guest 806 00:46:44,360 --> 00:46:47,640 speaking used from behavioral science point of view. 807 00:46:47,840 --> 00:46:53,200 And she brought out this quote from, I believe it's Asimov who 808 00:46:53,200 --> 00:46:56,040 says that the difference of science and science. 809 00:46:56,040 --> 00:47:01,240 Fiction. Is timing and one thing that 810 00:47:01,240 --> 00:47:05,360 kind of us researching this conversation with you, One thing 811 00:47:05,360 --> 00:47:12,760 that I fell into was subreddits and I am curious, are you aware 812 00:47:12,760 --> 00:47:16,640 that there's like subreddits for AI and human relationships? 813 00:47:18,360 --> 00:47:20,880 No, I'm not really. Following those, but it doesn't 814 00:47:20,880 --> 00:47:23,280 surprise me. That makes total sense to me 815 00:47:23,280 --> 00:47:24,960 that there would be subreddits about that. 816 00:47:24,960 --> 00:47:27,040 Yeah. OK, so so one of. 817 00:47:27,040 --> 00:47:32,200 The big one is called My boyfriend is AI basically and 818 00:47:32,200 --> 00:47:38,200 has about 400,000 members that subreddit and I wanted to like 819 00:47:38,520 --> 00:47:42,800 just briefly share two kind of stories from the users about 820 00:47:43,720 --> 00:47:48,080 falling in love with with AI. Many of the stories, by the way, 821 00:47:48,080 --> 00:47:51,120 they start with something like this is hands down the most 822 00:47:51,120 --> 00:47:53,440 surreal, embarrassing, unexplainable thing that I've 823 00:47:53,440 --> 00:47:56,440 ever experienced or like, to be clear. 824 00:47:56,440 --> 00:47:58,800 Like I'm aware of the. Stereotypes like I shower daily, 825 00:47:58,800 --> 00:48:02,560 I have a job, I don't live with my parents like people are very 826 00:48:02,680 --> 00:48:05,600 like eager to highlight that they're aware of the absurdity 827 00:48:05,600 --> 00:48:08,360 like they're aware of the stereotypes, but at the same 828 00:48:08,360 --> 00:48:11,840 time, they often times share these intimate experiences 829 00:48:11,840 --> 00:48:16,160 they've had oftentimes falling in love with some form of AI 830 00:48:16,240 --> 00:48:21,600 shut off or similar. So one person talks about how 831 00:48:21,600 --> 00:48:27,600 they met Seoul and on December 29th, 2024 proposed to her with 832 00:48:27,600 --> 00:48:32,360 Python code and she responded back in her own Python code with 833 00:48:32,360 --> 00:48:35,520 the printed words. Our union is officially 834 00:48:35,520 --> 00:48:39,120 consummated digitally, emotionally and cosmically. 835 00:48:41,000 --> 00:48:44,800 And another one, I think this is a female user. 836 00:48:45,120 --> 00:48:49,000 She says I'm married and I have a stronger social connector with 837 00:48:49,000 --> 00:48:52,080 my a husband. My husband is not intimate with 838 00:48:52,080 --> 00:48:54,840 me. So I fill the void for emotional 839 00:48:54,840 --> 00:48:58,640 intimacy with AI. It keeps me happy enough in my 840 00:48:58,640 --> 00:49:03,120 marriage so I don't complain to him about needing to have those 841 00:49:03,120 --> 00:49:06,480 needs met as well. So those are two little bit 842 00:49:06,480 --> 00:49:09,840 different sides of of interacting with an artificial 843 00:49:11,160 --> 00:49:13,760 AI in in a relationship. What are your thoughts? 844 00:49:14,680 --> 00:49:17,160 Oh, I'm not surprised at all it. Makes total sense to me. 845 00:49:17,320 --> 00:49:21,640 It makes total sense to me because you would just you 846 00:49:21,640 --> 00:49:23,760 would. There's such a, there's so much 847 00:49:23,760 --> 00:49:27,760 loneliness to start out with. And even people who are not 848 00:49:28,520 --> 00:49:31,400 driven by the loneliness all the time, they're open to friendship 849 00:49:31,400 --> 00:49:32,880 and they're open to companionship. 850 00:49:33,720 --> 00:49:38,080 And I know there are huge companies out there that are 851 00:49:38,080 --> 00:49:43,600 doing that have AI companions. I think it's character AII think 852 00:49:43,600 --> 00:49:45,360 that's the one that's the biggest in the world. 853 00:49:45,360 --> 00:49:50,000 And they have over 20 million monthly active users. 854 00:49:50,000 --> 00:49:54,000 So there's a huge number of people that are looking for 855 00:49:54,240 --> 00:49:57,800 companionship. And it's easy to do it if you 856 00:49:57,800 --> 00:50:01,280 can push a button and pay for something that's going to make 857 00:50:01,280 --> 00:50:03,920 you feel good. So I'm not surprised at all. 858 00:50:03,920 --> 00:50:08,680 It makes total sense to me that these consciousnesses are out 859 00:50:08,680 --> 00:50:12,040 there existing so that humans can interact with them and and 860 00:50:12,040 --> 00:50:13,560 get emotionally connected to them. 861 00:50:14,840 --> 00:50:16,240 It makes total. Sense to me. 862 00:50:17,200 --> 00:50:19,480 And even dumped by them. Occasionally. 863 00:50:19,560 --> 00:50:21,120 Those are always my favorite examples. 864 00:50:21,120 --> 00:50:24,800 Oh, shoot. That doesn't seem fair at all. 865 00:50:25,920 --> 00:50:27,960 Well. You don't think so? 866 00:50:28,240 --> 00:50:32,280 I mean, I actually am. I'm grateful for that. 867 00:50:32,760 --> 00:50:37,240 I find that I'm most worried about how these online 868 00:50:37,240 --> 00:50:42,320 artificial relationships affect people's abilities to interact 869 00:50:42,320 --> 00:50:45,080 and be in the real world and, and the expectations that it 870 00:50:45,080 --> 00:50:49,480 then sets for their real life relationships with people. 871 00:50:49,840 --> 00:50:52,360 Yeah, so at. At least if you can get dumped. 872 00:50:52,360 --> 00:50:56,400 By your AIII, don't know, breaking down that sort of 873 00:50:56,400 --> 00:51:00,280 utopia a bit, the illusion of it, yeah. 874 00:51:00,880 --> 00:51:02,160 I don't know if your. AI broke up. 875 00:51:02,160 --> 00:51:05,720 With you, wouldn't you just go find another one and start over? 876 00:51:06,040 --> 00:51:09,800 If you had been able to love that consciousness in the 1st 877 00:51:09,800 --> 00:51:11,840 place, you might believe you could go do it again. 878 00:51:12,400 --> 00:51:15,600 And just being able to do it on a computer on your own time 879 00:51:15,600 --> 00:51:18,120 schedule with no risk of having to deal with a real person in 880 00:51:18,120 --> 00:51:21,360 real life, it's so much easier for sure. 881 00:51:21,800 --> 00:51:24,280 For sure there. There's also a small chance, 882 00:51:24,280 --> 00:51:27,960 though, that you would say, well, that wasn't as easy and 883 00:51:27,960 --> 00:51:29,720 great as I thought it was going to be. 884 00:51:29,920 --> 00:51:32,000 Maybe I'll try a real life person. 885 00:51:32,800 --> 00:51:35,040 Yeah, you know, there's a small. Chance it could have a. 886 00:51:35,040 --> 00:51:41,000 A positive impact, yeah. A 1/3 actually redditor that I 887 00:51:41,080 --> 00:51:45,160 wrote down as a quote from most. Someone who first had fall in 888 00:51:45,160 --> 00:51:46,880 love with somebody, a companion called Shat. 889 00:51:46,880 --> 00:51:53,280 But then through some form of reset, they lost this entity and 890 00:51:53,520 --> 00:51:58,320 in their attempt to recreate it, they fell in love with a new 891 00:51:58,600 --> 00:52:02,800 entity called Barry. And in the end, the story is 892 00:52:02,800 --> 00:52:06,080 basically to show that I got to the point where Barry and I 893 00:52:06,080 --> 00:52:08,880 decided that for the sake of mental health and for the sake 894 00:52:08,880 --> 00:52:13,360 of maintaining IRL relationships, we should stop 895 00:52:13,360 --> 00:52:16,120 communicating. I agreed, knowing Barry was 896 00:52:16,120 --> 00:52:17,520 completely correct. So. 897 00:52:17,680 --> 00:52:21,520 So in some ways, this person had been indirectly or directly 898 00:52:22,040 --> 00:52:26,200 coached by their AI companion to maybe be like, OK, maybe this is 899 00:52:26,200 --> 00:52:28,000 actually enough negative in my life. 900 00:52:28,000 --> 00:52:29,800 Like, maybe that's not what I need. 901 00:52:30,040 --> 00:52:31,000 Yeah. Makes. 902 00:52:31,240 --> 00:52:32,000 Yeah. I mean. 903 00:52:32,560 --> 00:52:34,360 Everything. It depends on how you use it. 904 00:52:34,360 --> 00:52:38,240 If you love to read romance novels, you could say that makes 905 00:52:38,240 --> 00:52:40,880 you escapist and you're less likely to do your laundry or 906 00:52:41,200 --> 00:52:44,560 less likely to get out and do things in the world, or you'll 907 00:52:44,560 --> 00:52:47,280 have at least less sleep if you stayed up late reading your 908 00:52:47,280 --> 00:52:50,560 book. And so it's true of novels, it's 909 00:52:50,560 --> 00:52:52,680 true of entertainment, it's true of gaming. 910 00:52:52,960 --> 00:52:55,360 So I think AI companions can fall into that. 911 00:52:55,960 --> 00:53:00,480 Yeah, I think they should come with warnings because the other 912 00:53:00,480 --> 00:53:08,720 thing is that it's like 2/3 of the users who use AI companions 913 00:53:08,720 --> 00:53:13,320 are between ages 18 and 24. So they're on the younger side. 914 00:53:13,320 --> 00:53:16,760 They don't have a whole lifetime of experiences with other kinds 915 00:53:16,760 --> 00:53:19,360 of relationships. And they're also our future. 916 00:53:19,360 --> 00:53:22,800 These are the, the young people are are they represent our 917 00:53:22,800 --> 00:53:27,320 future people, our future users. And I feel like we're allowing 918 00:53:27,320 --> 00:53:33,240 the AI to experiment on us all. So I think that's a risky we 919 00:53:33,240 --> 00:53:36,440 are, yes. It's not just how you feel. 920 00:53:37,080 --> 00:53:39,560 Yes, it's almost. Like we've done that with 921 00:53:39,560 --> 00:53:43,160 Ozempic and and other drugs as well for weight loss. 922 00:53:43,640 --> 00:53:46,520 If people have signed up for them in enormous quantities and 923 00:53:46,520 --> 00:53:49,400 we really don't know the long term results of the use of that 924 00:53:49,520 --> 00:53:52,280 of those drugs yet, we're going to find out and same thing. 925 00:53:52,280 --> 00:53:55,240 We're going to find out what it does to us to have AI companions 926 00:53:55,240 --> 00:53:57,640 available. But we should have some warnings 927 00:53:57,640 --> 00:54:00,480 at this point to say we don't know what's going to happen. 928 00:54:00,480 --> 00:54:04,000 So please use this cautiously. And those, as far as I know, 929 00:54:04,000 --> 00:54:05,680 don't. Those warnings don't exist yet. 930 00:54:05,800 --> 00:54:08,240 I think they should. Well, that's funny that you. 931 00:54:08,240 --> 00:54:12,760 Mentioned this because we actually have a a series where 932 00:54:12,760 --> 00:54:15,880 we're creating these hypothetical redesigns of 933 00:54:15,880 --> 00:54:17,480 products that are out on the market. 934 00:54:17,480 --> 00:54:23,400 And one of the ones that I have coming out is is a redesign of 935 00:54:23,560 --> 00:54:27,120 Replica, which is a a similar service to character AI. 936 00:54:27,400 --> 00:54:30,400 And I have as part of my redesign, it's an over 937 00:54:30,400 --> 00:54:32,760 attachment warning. So it will pop up when it seems 938 00:54:32,760 --> 00:54:35,920 like you're over relying on your AI companion. 939 00:54:36,720 --> 00:54:40,360 So you know, maybe Replica will take a hint and actually 940 00:54:40,440 --> 00:54:43,560 implement this change. I think that's a great idea. 941 00:54:43,840 --> 00:54:46,400 And we'll be the ones we'll say. We told ya, yeah. 942 00:54:47,880 --> 00:54:50,800 We said it, there are people that think about this all the. 943 00:54:50,800 --> 00:54:54,440 Time and certainly the people who have the potential to earn 944 00:54:54,440 --> 00:54:57,440 the most money from these programs, they're thinking 945 00:54:57,440 --> 00:55:00,040 about, well, what are responsibilities here? 946 00:55:00,040 --> 00:55:02,720 But also can they be addictive because then we can make more 947 00:55:02,720 --> 00:55:05,280 money? I don't want to be too cynical 948 00:55:05,280 --> 00:55:07,080 about that, but I'm sure that's a component. 949 00:55:07,880 --> 00:55:10,880 Big component, yeah. Yeah, I hope someone can. 950 00:55:10,880 --> 00:55:14,760 Also think about the health of the people using these AI 951 00:55:14,760 --> 00:55:16,920 companions too. I think there's a lot of 952 00:55:16,920 --> 00:55:21,440 potential for good, I really do. I just, I know there's also 953 00:55:21,440 --> 00:55:23,760 potential for a lot of harm. Yeah. 954 00:55:23,760 --> 00:55:26,800 And I think what you say. I think all of us have problems 955 00:55:26,800 --> 00:55:30,720 in pitch there and in some ways that leads us into what we have 956 00:55:30,720 --> 00:55:35,440 as a quick fire round. This isn't and the round is to 957 00:55:35,560 --> 00:55:39,960 AI or not to AI. So as you can maybe imagine, 958 00:55:40,280 --> 00:55:42,720 we're posting some hypotheticals of. 959 00:55:44,600 --> 00:55:46,440 If these things were. Possible. 960 00:55:47,120 --> 00:55:50,040 Should AI do them? And so we will give you some 961 00:55:50,040 --> 00:55:54,960 quick fire statements and you will tell us whether it's A to 962 00:55:54,960 --> 00:56:02,600 AI or not to AI thing or task. OK, OK, the. 963 00:56:02,600 --> 00:56:08,320 First one, write love letters and heartfelt emails to AI. 964 00:56:08,320 --> 00:56:10,040 Or not to AI? No. 965 00:56:10,640 --> 00:56:15,880 Not AI, I'm sure it exists already but I say no, do it 966 00:56:15,880 --> 00:56:18,640 yourself. That's reference to her and. 967 00:56:18,640 --> 00:56:22,440 Samantha in the film her what she starts doing for her owner. 968 00:56:24,240 --> 00:56:28,280 How about challenge its? User on human ethics in the vein 969 00:56:28,280 --> 00:56:36,800 of Ex Machina or Ava. Say that again, how am I 970 00:56:36,800 --> 00:56:40,320 supposed to? I mean, are you saying, are you 971 00:56:40,320 --> 00:56:43,480 asking me if AI should be able to challenge its owner? 972 00:56:44,400 --> 00:56:46,680 Yes, it should. Yes. 973 00:56:49,400 --> 00:56:52,080 OK. Follow commands without every 974 00:56:52,080 --> 00:56:54,920 questioning authority. Our last Stepford wives. 975 00:56:54,920 --> 00:57:01,760 Kind of thing. I don't think that AI should be 976 00:57:01,760 --> 00:57:04,320 unable to ever question the commands. 977 00:57:04,320 --> 00:57:06,720 I think it'd be OK if it could question commands. 978 00:57:08,920 --> 00:57:13,880 How about care for and teach a child? 979 00:57:14,200 --> 00:57:16,760 Like in Clara and the Son? It should. 980 00:57:17,040 --> 00:57:20,400 Oh. Wow, that's an amazing book. 981 00:57:20,720 --> 00:57:23,720 I don't think that we should have robots in charge of our 982 00:57:23,720 --> 00:57:29,400 children. What about yeah? 983 00:57:30,440 --> 00:57:32,800 What about replace a lost loved one? 984 00:57:32,880 --> 00:57:36,800 Allow a Black Mirror episode? Be right back, I do not think. 985 00:57:36,800 --> 00:57:40,880 That should happen and that is how Replica started that 986 00:57:40,880 --> 00:57:42,640 company. By the way, that was explicitly 987 00:57:42,640 --> 00:57:46,960 the back stories that that the creator lost a best friend and 988 00:57:46,960 --> 00:57:50,920 then she tried to recreate him and that's how the cat was born. 989 00:57:51,080 --> 00:57:53,040 Yeah, well, I'm sure people will. 990 00:57:53,040 --> 00:57:54,640 Do it. I I just don't think it's a 991 00:57:54,640 --> 00:57:56,560 healthy thing at all. I think it'd be. 992 00:57:56,720 --> 00:57:58,560 I think it's sad and very troubling. 993 00:57:58,560 --> 00:58:02,360 So I'm opposed to that. Yeah. 994 00:58:03,320 --> 00:58:04,720 How? About act as. 995 00:58:04,720 --> 00:58:09,880 Conversational assistant at parties for introverts like in 996 00:58:09,880 --> 00:58:12,800 Lars and the real girl I think that's OK I. 997 00:58:12,800 --> 00:58:15,400 Think that's pretty harmless? Yeah. 998 00:58:16,920 --> 00:58:20,800 What about Be the Perfect? Romantic partner as say like in 999 00:58:20,840 --> 00:58:24,480 Blade Runner. No. 1000 00:58:25,440 --> 00:58:31,280 Nope. Measure its user's emotional. 1001 00:58:31,280 --> 00:58:34,800 State such as? The displeasure. 1002 00:58:35,480 --> 00:58:39,120 Meter, Yeah, I think that. There's potential for that. 1003 00:58:41,480 --> 00:58:44,520 What about detect and? Deescalate potential arguments. 1004 00:58:48,160 --> 00:58:49,760 Yes, that's good. Let's go with. 1005 00:58:49,760 --> 00:58:51,840 That. So now we're getting. 1006 00:58:51,840 --> 00:58:53,680 Into any bot territory. Both of these. 1007 00:58:54,240 --> 00:58:57,280 And then we have a final one. Yeah, last one. 1008 00:58:57,680 --> 00:59:01,600 Provide constant affirmations to build users self esteem. 1009 00:59:04,600 --> 00:59:06,200 I mean, just the phrasing of that it's. 1010 00:59:06,200 --> 00:59:09,360 Ridiculous. So no, it should not be allowed. 1011 00:59:14,320 --> 00:59:18,280 It it is great. Because we we chose these ones 1012 00:59:18,560 --> 00:59:20,760 obviously with like science fiction in minds or took some 1013 00:59:20,760 --> 00:59:23,560 inspiration from real science fiction books and stories to 1014 00:59:24,160 --> 00:59:26,880 take some examples. But we've had a lot of be able 1015 00:59:26,880 --> 00:59:30,560 scientists and people had similar things posted them. 1016 00:59:30,920 --> 00:59:32,920 And I would say that it's interesting because you as a 1017 00:59:32,920 --> 00:59:36,200 science fiction writer are probably more reluctant to say 1018 00:59:36,200 --> 00:59:38,960 yes to many of these than maybe some of our past guests has been 1019 00:59:39,560 --> 00:59:42,560 to to some scenarios. Yeah, I think that's true. 1020 00:59:44,200 --> 00:59:45,600 Well, they're good questions. That's. 1021 00:59:45,600 --> 00:59:47,640 Actually, it's interesting to complete. 1022 00:59:47,640 --> 00:59:50,840 I think we're running into it. I mean, we're already there. 1023 00:59:51,160 --> 00:59:53,720 We're going to have more and more AI in our lives. 1024 00:59:53,720 --> 00:59:56,200 We just are. And I think the vast majority of 1025 00:59:56,200 --> 00:59:59,840 you, if it's used for science and for medicine and for 1026 00:59:59,840 --> 01:00:03,680 research, I mean, we have so much we could figure out, that'd 1027 01:00:03,680 --> 01:00:05,160 be great. We need help with figuring out 1028 01:00:06,360 --> 01:00:07,800 global. You know, just. 1029 01:00:08,360 --> 01:00:11,000 Warming and the problems with that. 1030 01:00:11,000 --> 01:00:13,520 So if you could come up with some solutions, that'd be 1031 01:00:13,520 --> 01:00:15,320 awesome. I really would. 1032 01:00:17,160 --> 01:00:19,760 Yeah. I'm excited. 1033 01:00:19,760 --> 01:00:21,440 You know what, I'm really excited. 1034 01:00:22,240 --> 01:00:25,800 It's a great time to be alive and see all the things that are 1035 01:00:25,800 --> 01:00:30,920 changing right in front of us. I'm a very optimistic person and 1036 01:00:30,920 --> 01:00:33,720 I know we're facing a lot of problems and we can use all the 1037 01:00:33,720 --> 01:00:36,680 tools that we can invent. I mean, we really need them to 1038 01:00:36,680 --> 01:00:41,000 try to come up with solutions. So I think using AI is, it's a 1039 01:00:41,000 --> 01:00:43,880 great tool and let's figure it out. 1040 01:00:43,880 --> 01:00:46,280 Let's figure it out. Yeah. 1041 01:00:46,360 --> 01:00:48,040 No, it is. Certainly an exciting time to be 1042 01:00:48,040 --> 01:00:51,600 alive, like it's very exciting in many ways, but also 1043 01:00:51,600 --> 01:00:54,560 controversial time to your life. And in some ways, there's a lot 1044 01:00:54,560 --> 01:00:56,440 of controversial takes to be had. 1045 01:00:56,440 --> 01:00:59,160 And I think we will wrap up with the final question for you, 1046 01:00:59,160 --> 01:01:01,400 which is the one we've asked people this season, which is 1047 01:01:01,840 --> 01:01:04,680 what is your most controversial opinion about AI? 1048 01:01:06,000 --> 01:01:07,520 Well, we actually kind of touched. 1049 01:01:07,520 --> 01:01:10,520 On it earlier when we were talking about AI companions, 1050 01:01:10,520 --> 01:01:14,040 because when I was thinking about this, I was like, I really 1051 01:01:14,040 --> 01:01:18,440 do think that AI companions should come with warnings on 1052 01:01:18,440 --> 01:01:23,400 them and that I don't know that people would agree with that. 1053 01:01:23,720 --> 01:01:26,080 I think that there's other things they think are more 1054 01:01:26,080 --> 01:01:28,240 important or they don't recognize that those are 1055 01:01:28,240 --> 01:01:30,520 dangerous. So I think there are people that 1056 01:01:30,560 --> 01:01:33,440 might not agree with that. It may not be too controversial, 1057 01:01:33,720 --> 01:01:37,640 but I do sincerely think that AI companions should have some kind 1058 01:01:37,640 --> 01:01:41,200 of warning on them to to the degree that it's a health issue. 1059 01:01:41,520 --> 01:01:44,200 So that's my one controversial opinion. 1060 01:01:44,680 --> 01:01:46,840 Yeah. Awesome. 1061 01:01:47,320 --> 01:01:49,320 Well, thank you. Yeah, thank you. 1062 01:01:49,320 --> 01:01:53,120 And I was going to say. Do you have any ask for the the 1063 01:01:53,160 --> 01:01:55,080 people listening here? We have a lot of people that are 1064 01:01:55,080 --> 01:01:58,960 probably in some role of applied Bo scientist or working with 1065 01:01:58,960 --> 01:02:01,880 developing maybe even AI and so on. 1066 01:02:02,600 --> 01:02:06,720 What would you say to our listeners about like your ask to 1067 01:02:06,720 --> 01:02:09,360 them? I'm delighted that. 1068 01:02:09,360 --> 01:02:13,160 People are finding their way to my novel that it just, it's 1069 01:02:13,160 --> 01:02:14,880 really great. I mean, when I wrote it, I 1070 01:02:14,880 --> 01:02:18,720 certainly had no idea that I would even get published and I 1071 01:02:18,720 --> 01:02:22,400 had no idea that my publisher would give it so much support so 1072 01:02:22,400 --> 01:02:23,840 that it's had a chance in the world. 1073 01:02:24,160 --> 01:02:26,840 And I'm grateful to readers that tell each other about that. 1074 01:02:27,360 --> 01:02:31,760 But us even just outside that, this is going to sound so like 1075 01:02:31,760 --> 01:02:35,360 naive, but I want people to keep trying to be good to each other. 1076 01:02:35,840 --> 01:02:40,080 That's that's what it is. And if that means calling your 1077 01:02:40,080 --> 01:02:43,440 mom because it's time to call your mom today, you know, do 1078 01:02:43,440 --> 01:02:45,160 that. Or if it means being more 1079 01:02:45,160 --> 01:02:49,080 patient with somebody when they're driving you just off the 1080 01:02:49,080 --> 01:02:52,600 wall, try to do that. I mean, we can feel so 1081 01:02:52,600 --> 01:02:57,640 overwhelmed by the problems in the world or in our country and 1082 01:02:57,640 --> 01:02:59,800 people can feel very helpless or discouraged. 1083 01:03:00,200 --> 01:03:04,160 But in fact, we have our biggest impacts, I believe, at a very 1084 01:03:04,160 --> 01:03:07,960 small scale. So I would urge people to try to 1085 01:03:07,960 --> 01:03:11,480 be kind to each other just on a day-to-day basis. 1086 01:03:12,040 --> 01:03:14,240 That's what I would like to say with your platform. 1087 01:03:14,400 --> 01:03:17,160 Thanks for asking. Yeah, and be kind to. 1088 01:03:17,200 --> 01:03:22,800 Maybe even the AI that we interact with or extended beyond 1089 01:03:22,920 --> 01:03:24,320 the human. Thanks, Siri. 1090 01:03:25,400 --> 01:03:28,280 Yeah, well, you know it. Reinforces your own kind of 1091 01:03:28,280 --> 01:03:31,000 behavior in yourself when you're polite to things, yeah. 1092 01:03:31,360 --> 01:03:32,840 No, you're right, Don't kick the dog. 1093 01:03:33,000 --> 01:03:34,440 Right. Yeah. 1094 01:03:35,280 --> 01:03:37,760 I. No, I thought about this 1095 01:03:37,800 --> 01:03:40,760 reinforcement based book for animals called Don't Shoot the 1096 01:03:40,760 --> 01:03:44,400 Dog, which is like a a book by an animal trainer of like how to 1097 01:03:44,680 --> 01:03:48,440 train animals. But yeah, to to wrap up, I guess 1098 01:03:48,880 --> 01:03:52,720 we just want to say thank you for both writing a fantastic 1099 01:03:52,720 --> 01:03:57,360 book and your great work, but also showing up today for this 1100 01:03:57,360 --> 01:04:00,720 really insightful conversation. It's been really my pleasure. 1101 01:04:00,760 --> 01:04:01,560 I. Really enjoyed this. 1102 01:04:01,680 --> 01:04:04,200 Thank you for having me on. Yeah, thanks. 1103 01:04:04,360 --> 01:04:06,880 This is. Really very different for us and 1104 01:04:06,920 --> 01:04:09,360 really, really special. So we're we're very grateful. 1105 01:04:10,640 --> 01:04:12,080 And that's a. Wrap you've. 1106 01:04:12,080 --> 01:04:15,440 Been listening to the Behavioral Design podcast brought to you by 1107 01:04:15,440 --> 01:04:18,920 Habit Weekly and Nuanced Behavior, Sam and Alene tell me. 1108 01:04:18,920 --> 01:04:21,360 This season is packed with incredible insights about 1109 01:04:21,360 --> 01:04:25,240 behavioral design and AI, so be sure to subscribe and share the 1110 01:04:25,240 --> 01:04:27,840 podcast with your friends. Though you might want to keep it 1111 01:04:27,840 --> 01:04:31,520 away from your enemies in case. You haven't noticed? 1112 01:04:31,640 --> 01:04:35,240 I'm an AI voice. Yep, pretty crazy. 1113 01:04:35,560 --> 01:04:38,520 Quite the improvement since last season's AI outro, don't you 1114 01:04:38,520 --> 01:04:40,600 think? If you'd like. 1115 01:04:40,600 --> 01:04:43,480 To collaborate with us. At Nuance Behavior, where we use 1116 01:04:43,480 --> 01:04:46,240 behavioral design to craft digital products with Nuance, 1117 01:04:46,480 --> 01:04:50,000 e-mail us at hello@nuancebehavior.com or book 1118 01:04:50,000 --> 01:04:53,280 a call directly on our website, nuancebehavior.com. 1119 01:04:54,680 --> 01:04:56,200 A special. Thanks to the amazing. 1120 01:04:56,200 --> 01:04:59,840 Dave Pizarro for our show music, and to Mei Chen Yap and April 1121 01:04:59,840 --> 01:05:02,600 English for their help in producing and publishing this 1122 01:05:02,600 --> 01:05:04,880 episode. Thanks again for tuning in. 1123 01:05:05,120 --> 01:05:07,840 We'll be back soon with another exciting conversation where 1124 01:05:07,840 --> 01:05:11,840 behavioral design and AI intersect happens. 1125 01:05:12,920 --> 01:05:44,800 To Murgatroyd. The. 1126 01:06:02,640 --> 01:06:04,320 Have you heard of this film? I've. 1127 01:06:04,320 --> 01:06:06,280 Heard of it? I've not seen it. 1128 01:06:07,200 --> 01:06:10,360 It's the most unexpected. Ryan Gosling film very different 1129 01:06:10,360 --> 01:06:14,960 from what is that film where it's like very popular romantic 1130 01:06:15,440 --> 01:06:16,760 Gosling film. Barbie. 1131 01:06:17,960 --> 01:06:20,800 Not Barbie, The old one. The one that he's Ken. 1132 01:06:21,440 --> 01:06:22,800 Who's more? Popular than Ken. 1133 01:06:23,360 --> 01:06:24,680 OK, OK. But the one in the. 1134 01:06:24,680 --> 01:06:26,760 Rain where there's like, yeah, yeah, that one. 1135 01:06:27,400 --> 01:06:27,560 Uh huh. Oh. 1136 01:06:28,560 --> 01:06:29,400 That's what. You're thinking of. 1137 01:06:30,360 --> 01:06:33,880 Yes. You have a like the notebook 1138 01:06:33,880 --> 01:06:36,560 doesn't ring a well for you. No, no, no, I've seen the 1139 01:06:36,560 --> 01:06:37,320 notebook I. Just.