1
00:00:10,800 --> 00:00:14,500
Welcome to another episode of 
the behavioral design podcast 

2
00:00:14,500 --> 00:00:19,300
hosted by myself, Simon Seltzer 
and Allan Holdsworth hailing. 

3
00:00:19,300 --> 00:00:20,700
How are you doing? 
Hi, hi. 

4
00:00:20,800 --> 00:00:24,400
I'm doing swell. 
So I have to ask you when you 

5
00:00:24,400 --> 00:00:29,200
were driving to our virtual 
podcast Studio, any chance you 

6
00:00:29,200 --> 00:00:30,800
were texting. 
And during this time, have you 

7
00:00:30,800 --> 00:00:34,000
texted and drive your life? 
Oh, never me? 

8
00:00:34,000 --> 00:00:38,300
No, absolutely not. 
I as a behavioral scientist, who

9
00:00:38,300 --> 00:00:42,600
knows the the sort of the lure 
and Temptation. 

10
00:00:42,600 --> 00:00:45,500
I always put my phone in the 
trunk while I'm driving. 

11
00:00:45,600 --> 00:00:50,200
So this song is an obvious lie, 
you know? 

12
00:00:50,200 --> 00:00:54,100
Yeah, it is. 
It's honestly think this is me. 

13
00:00:54,200 --> 00:00:59,600
This is like one of those things
were, it's very I think hard to 

14
00:00:59,600 --> 00:01:01,200
not. 
Do right? 

15
00:01:01,200 --> 00:01:04,099
Like it's one of the things 
that's very hard not to do even 

16
00:01:04,099 --> 00:01:06,700
if you know you shouldn't do it.
It's very easy to do. 

17
00:01:07,200 --> 00:01:11,000
Yes I think the the we have so 
many experiences that where we 

18
00:01:11,000 --> 00:01:13,800
get away with it that we sort of
update the probability of 

19
00:01:13,800 --> 00:01:18,700
something terrible happening and
we come to this, I don't know 

20
00:01:18,708 --> 00:01:22,400
that the this sort of false 
sense of security where we think

21
00:01:22,600 --> 00:01:25,000
alike. 
I know how to I can handle this.

22
00:01:25,300 --> 00:01:28,700
But of course, many, many 
accidents are caused by texting 

23
00:01:28,700 --> 00:01:33,700
and driving. 
And it is not not generally 

24
00:01:33,700 --> 00:01:37,500
advisable, regardless of how it 
feels, how safe it felt like how

25
00:01:37,600 --> 00:01:40,600
like how successfully you feel 
like you get away with it? 

26
00:01:40,600 --> 00:01:43,300
Most of the time? 
Yeah, well plot twist. 

27
00:01:43,300 --> 00:01:45,900
I'm actually recording this 
episode while currently driving 

28
00:01:45,900 --> 00:01:49,300
on the highway. 
So there's crap. 

29
00:01:50,000 --> 00:01:53,300
I hope your eye over in an 
autonomous vehicle that is doing

30
00:01:53,300 --> 00:01:58,700
all the driving for you. 
Yes, yes, for sure. 

31
00:01:58,800 --> 00:02:03,500
And No, I'm you know obviously 
not doing that but it's 

32
00:02:03,500 --> 00:02:06,300
interesting in terms of the 
topic and you bring it up 

33
00:02:06,300 --> 00:02:09,800
autonomous vehicles. 
You know that leads us into the 

34
00:02:09,800 --> 00:02:17,700
guest of our episode. 
We spoke to Nick Shader at work 

35
00:02:17,700 --> 00:02:21,400
business school is Professor of 
Behavioral Science, and studies 

36
00:02:21,400 --> 00:02:25,300
cognitive and social foundations
of rationality and applies. 

37
00:02:25,300 --> 00:02:28,100
A real insights to public policy
and business. 

38
00:02:28,100 --> 00:02:31,400
But yeah, maybe you can tell us 
Us a bit more about what we 

39
00:02:31,600 --> 00:02:33,900
explore with Nick. 
Yeah, we had a very interesting 

40
00:02:33,900 --> 00:02:35,700
chat. 
All about Behavioral Science 

41
00:02:35,700 --> 00:02:39,100
applied to public policy where 
Behavioral Science might go 

42
00:02:39,100 --> 00:02:42,500
wrong according to some and 
definitely disputed by others. 

43
00:02:43,000 --> 00:02:46,000
And then for our product Deep 
dive, we explore the Behavioral 

44
00:02:46,000 --> 00:02:50,700
Science of autonomous vehicles. 
So, so getting into, like, what 

45
00:02:50,700 --> 00:02:54,700
what The Human Side of driving 
and not driving. 

46
00:02:54,700 --> 00:02:59,700
And what are some of the risks 
that might be unforeseen it in 

47
00:02:59,700 --> 00:03:03,200
our Future of autonomous 
vehicles when everyone is not 

48
00:03:03,200 --> 00:03:07,600
driving in their in their self 
driving cars and and we really 

49
00:03:07,600 --> 00:03:12,000
get into his controversial paper
with George Lowenstein, who also

50
00:03:12,000 --> 00:03:16,800
known as G low, and who has the 
best birthday of August 9th, if 

51
00:03:16,800 --> 00:03:22,000
I do say so myself. 
So let's let's enable auto 

52
00:03:22,000 --> 00:03:26,200
pilot. 
Get this episode started at 

53
00:03:26,200 --> 00:03:38,500
Troy. 
I'm very happy to welcome, 

54
00:03:38,500 --> 00:03:40,900
Nick's to the behavioural 
samples, guess welcoming well. 

55
00:03:40,900 --> 00:03:42,400
Thanks very much. 
Thank you so much for having me.

56
00:03:43,000 --> 00:03:44,700
Yeah, we're super excited to 
talk to you and I think it's 

57
00:03:44,708 --> 00:03:48,600
going to be a fun conversation. 
We're going to, you know, I 

58
00:03:48,608 --> 00:03:50,500
think it's one of those 
conversations where ask what 

59
00:03:50,500 --> 00:03:53,800
kind of preparing for it. 
We were a little bit, you know, 

60
00:03:53,800 --> 00:03:56,300
customers surprised that there's
a lot of rules we could take 

61
00:03:56,300 --> 00:03:58,800
today. 
I feel like we could ask you all

62
00:03:59,300 --> 00:04:02,300
find out later I mean with roads
as well there's this kind of 

63
00:04:02,500 --> 00:04:05,500
avenues where to go with this 
composition literature and so 

64
00:04:05,700 --> 00:04:10,100
literal sis so we'll see where 
we'll go. 

65
00:04:10,100 --> 00:04:15,100
I think a nice way to start is 
that you have had so much 

66
00:04:15,300 --> 00:04:19,300
experience when both in Academia
and also thinking about how we 

67
00:04:19,300 --> 00:04:23,100
can really Bridge understanding 
and put it to practice. 

68
00:04:23,200 --> 00:04:27,100
And it's always interesting to 
hear what is an example of call.

69
00:04:27,100 --> 00:04:31,600
It Behavioral Science in the 
wild That comes to mind for you.

70
00:04:31,800 --> 00:04:36,100
Either QB, a kind of terrible 
example like they will science 

71
00:04:36,100 --> 00:04:39,000
and wild gone wrong or gone, 
right? 

72
00:04:39,000 --> 00:04:42,100
Is there some some applied 
intervention that you think 

73
00:04:42,100 --> 00:04:44,200
stands out for you? 
Well, that's really interesting.

74
00:04:44,200 --> 00:04:47,000
Question, quite difficult 
actually, there are. 

75
00:04:47,000 --> 00:04:50,000
Yeah. 
So I mean I suppose an example 

76
00:04:50,000 --> 00:04:54,500
which is a very, very sort of 
constrained into specific 

77
00:04:54,500 --> 00:04:55,900
example. 
What we're asking people, 

78
00:04:55,900 --> 00:04:59,700
science is really good, is 
expecting just take. 

79
00:05:00,200 --> 00:05:03,600
Everyday, behaviors particular 
example, might be a personal 

80
00:05:03,600 --> 00:05:05,800
assistant interacting with the 
government website. 

81
00:05:06,100 --> 00:05:09,000
For might be somebody doing our 
Supermarket shopping and taking 

82
00:05:09,000 --> 00:05:11,800
that interaction and turning 
into an experiment. 

83
00:05:11,900 --> 00:05:15,100
So that's something I think it's
been remarkably successful as 

84
00:05:15,100 --> 00:05:16,700
really really have things to do 
got. 

85
00:05:16,900 --> 00:05:18,800
So in fact, we build a whole 
business on this so this isn't 

86
00:05:18,800 --> 00:05:21,300
technology which is the spin out
of right University. 

87
00:05:21,300 --> 00:05:24,800
They started about 20 years ago.
So I'm still starting off with 

88
00:05:24,800 --> 00:05:27,100
now but that's that's many 
Business Leaders based on doing 

89
00:05:27,100 --> 00:05:29,700
this and I think it that's 
that's really cool. 

90
00:05:30,200 --> 00:05:33,100
There's gues. 
Nothing is the one given that 

91
00:05:33,100 --> 00:05:35,700
you I'm sure have done a lot of 
testing experiments is there, is

92
00:05:35,700 --> 00:05:39,300
there, you know, it's hard to 
choose some sleep basis. 

93
00:05:39,300 --> 00:05:41,200
One that kind of come to comes 
to mind for you. 

94
00:05:42,300 --> 00:05:45,300
Yes, I suppose the reason the 
one of the first we ever did was

95
00:05:45,300 --> 00:05:48,600
with the probably, the largest 
Sigma X in the UK, there aren't 

96
00:05:48,600 --> 00:05:52,400
that many to choose from. 
We were looking at the question 

97
00:05:52,400 --> 00:05:54,700
of pricing. 
So there, they were saying, 

98
00:05:54,800 --> 00:05:56,900
well, we want to reduce our 
prices this year. 

99
00:05:56,900 --> 00:06:00,300
There's a Happy Days introduce 
our prizes this year by I think 

100
00:06:00,300 --> 00:06:01,900
it's like a hundred million 
pounds or something. 

101
00:06:01,900 --> 00:06:03,500
Let's take that out of our 
current prices. 

102
00:06:03,500 --> 00:06:05,800
So where should we do it? 
We want people, we want people 

103
00:06:05,800 --> 00:06:08,600
to think we're cheap cheaper 
than me there were before, so 

104
00:06:08,600 --> 00:06:11,300
where should we do it through 
the lots of work on that, we 

105
00:06:11,300 --> 00:06:14,600
discovered that the best thing 
to do actually is to spread your

106
00:06:14,600 --> 00:06:19,100
price price, cut broadly, this 
is Public public knowledge, 

107
00:06:19,100 --> 00:06:22,400
these days for expecting broadly
not, not put them on particular,

108
00:06:22,400 --> 00:06:24,900
key, key items. 
But you have to make the fastest

109
00:06:24,900 --> 00:06:27,300
big enough person to between 5 
and 10 percent of the people, 

110
00:06:27,300 --> 00:06:29,400
notice them, otherwise it's 
pointless. 

111
00:06:30,100 --> 00:06:34,000
And this is a, this is a great 
strategy, but unfortunately, the

112
00:06:34,000 --> 00:06:37,800
the supermarket concerned with 
so except so enthusiastic about 

113
00:06:37,800 --> 00:06:38,700
it. 
They started to advertise 

114
00:06:38,700 --> 00:06:41,200
putting on a verse there. 
We doing when it comes, then 

115
00:06:41,200 --> 00:06:42,300
their competitors that are 
right. 

116
00:06:42,300 --> 00:06:43,300
That's what they're doing, 
amazing. 

117
00:07:00,000 --> 00:07:02,100
That's not what sort of case of 
making the world a better and 

118
00:07:02,100 --> 00:07:03,500
happier place to it. 
Says Reggie, something that 

119
00:07:03,500 --> 00:07:06,900
really comes Bobby mattered and 
was a really kind of crisp and 

120
00:07:06,900 --> 00:07:10,300
fear inside with a psychological
basis to we had a good basic 

121
00:07:10,300 --> 00:07:12,400
understanding of why that would 
be the case. 

122
00:07:12,900 --> 00:07:15,300
And so that was kind of scared. 
I think that was, that was a 

123
00:07:15,400 --> 00:07:17,200
little bit fussy. 
With this way, to be this kind 

124
00:07:17,200 --> 00:07:19,500
of approach has been with doing 
Nick. 

125
00:07:19,700 --> 00:07:23,600
You've written about a very 
interesting topic and there's, 

126
00:07:23,600 --> 00:07:27,400
there's a nice intersection 
between between this and a 

127
00:07:27,400 --> 00:07:30,800
segment that we've started doing
which is where We pick some 

128
00:07:30,800 --> 00:07:34,600
product out in the world and we 
asked, how would you take this 

129
00:07:34,600 --> 00:07:38,700
product and use Behavioral 
Science very in a very practical

130
00:07:38,700 --> 00:07:41,700
way to improve upon it? 
And we thought, they'd given 

131
00:07:41,700 --> 00:07:45,000
your your opinions and expertise
in this area. 

132
00:07:45,000 --> 00:07:47,400
It would be perfect to chat with
you about it. 

133
00:07:47,600 --> 00:07:50,900
And so, the, the products that 
we picked for you is autonomous 

134
00:07:50,900 --> 00:07:54,200
vehicles, very exciting space 
right now. 

135
00:07:54,800 --> 00:07:58,300
But first, I think, before we 
start improving the product, I 

136
00:07:58,300 --> 00:07:59,800
would like to hear what you 
think. 

137
00:08:00,300 --> 00:08:03,100
Is there a any problem to be 
solved here? 

138
00:08:03,600 --> 00:08:07,400
What are there any issues with 
autonomous vehicles aside from 

139
00:08:07,400 --> 00:08:10,400
the technology itself, right? 
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. 

140
00:08:10,400 --> 00:08:13,900
I think they're, this is a 
really massive human factors 

141
00:08:13,900 --> 00:08:16,100
Challenge and it's really, 
that's what I think. 

142
00:08:16,100 --> 00:08:19,000
We're all completely. 
All the real problems lie in the

143
00:08:19,000 --> 00:08:21,300
interaction of autonomous 
vehicles and humans. 

144
00:08:21,700 --> 00:08:24,400
If there were no humans on the 
roses worth of just touch on 

145
00:08:24,400 --> 00:08:26,900
this vehicle fishing around, 
they would be a piece of cake. 

146
00:08:26,900 --> 00:08:29,000
Ready, you've taken communicate 
with each other? 

147
00:08:29,200 --> 00:08:30,500
They can get into. 
Little lines. 

148
00:08:30,500 --> 00:08:33,000
They would never hit each other.
We could keep the roads. 

149
00:08:33,000 --> 00:08:36,100
Nice and clear, clear of 
children and bicycles. 

150
00:08:36,100 --> 00:08:39,400
And it would be, it would be. 
It would be very easy technology

151
00:08:39,400 --> 00:08:43,900
to roll out but all the usual as
usual humans, are the problem. 

152
00:08:43,900 --> 00:08:56,500
Yeah. 
And so, I think the computer 

153
00:08:56,500 --> 00:09:00,800
vision is now pretty damn good. 
Avoid obstacles. 

154
00:09:00,800 --> 00:09:03,600
That's an amazing achievement. 
That is kind of dumb intern 

155
00:09:03,600 --> 00:09:08,300
degree anyway and also just 
knowing where enough you are and

156
00:09:08,300 --> 00:09:11,300
be able to relate that to the 
landscape around you to pinpoint

157
00:09:11,300 --> 00:09:13,500
your location. 
That's a very ample all the 

158
00:09:13,500 --> 00:09:15,900
navigational stuff is again, we 
take it for granted but that's a

159
00:09:15,908 --> 00:09:19,200
massive achievement but the 
problem is left, is this problem

160
00:09:19,200 --> 00:09:22,200
of interacting with people? 
And I suppose I'm a color to 

161
00:09:22,200 --> 00:09:24,200
couple things and there are many
many problems. 

162
00:09:24,200 --> 00:09:28,400
But let me just focus on to one 
is as it can possibly as a 

163
00:09:28,408 --> 00:09:31,200
driver disciplines. 
Vehicle their quotes driver. 

164
00:09:31,500 --> 00:09:35,700
If I have any involvement at 
all, how do we shift to me, John

165
00:09:35,700 --> 00:09:38,900
vehicle, and in the vehicle 
being in charge? 

166
00:09:38,900 --> 00:09:40,600
And that's a really hard problem
to a lot. 

167
00:09:40,600 --> 00:09:45,800
A lot of the discussion has to 
sort of the rough luck ruff's of

168
00:09:46,500 --> 00:09:49,100
division of labor sort of 
approach, which is saying, well,

169
00:09:49,100 --> 00:09:51,400
if you just go on a Motorway, 
you're going to be easy. 

170
00:09:51,600 --> 00:09:55,000
The vehicle just handle and you 
can give me the book, and you 

171
00:09:55,000 --> 00:09:56,700
can see how sleep whatever you 
like. 

172
00:09:57,100 --> 00:10:01,200
On the other, we're doing some 
tricky, riving some Fitted so 

173
00:10:01,200 --> 00:10:04,200
traffic flow comes along or 
you're in several urban area or 

174
00:10:04,208 --> 00:10:07,500
whatever it is or there's an 
accident then you need to take 

175
00:10:07,500 --> 00:10:09,700
over and and that's that's 
great. 

176
00:10:09,700 --> 00:10:12,000
Except for the fact that you 
have to manage that for us to 

177
00:10:12,000 --> 00:10:13,800
take me over and that's really 
hard. 

178
00:10:14,000 --> 00:10:15,900
So this is nothing. 
I've said already but for people

179
00:10:15,900 --> 00:10:19,600
who have come look at this, the 
process by which you familiarize

180
00:10:19,600 --> 00:10:23,100
someone with a difficult Road 
situation from scratch is a slow

181
00:10:23,100 --> 00:10:25,500
process. 
So here I am to reading my books

182
00:10:25,500 --> 00:10:28,800
and well actually I'm in love 
and suddenly, there's some 

183
00:10:29,000 --> 00:10:32,300
incident ahead of me. 
Bitola cowers under the road or 

184
00:10:32,300 --> 00:10:34,100
something so they have 
assistance of, right? 

185
00:10:34,100 --> 00:10:36,000
Okay. 
We need human involved here and 

186
00:10:36,000 --> 00:10:38,500
I'm like, I'm like I'm so really
my book idea where I have a 

187
00:10:38,500 --> 00:10:41,200
little what's going on and how 
fast we Goin, uh, that I want 

188
00:10:41,200 --> 00:10:43,300
the problems. 
I do know there's a problem, so 

189
00:10:43,300 --> 00:10:45,500
there's one side, so I guess 
we'll have to set a panic to 

190
00:10:45,500 --> 00:10:46,300
think. 
Oh my goodness. 

191
00:10:46,300 --> 00:10:49,500
Something some serious driving 
is required here because because

192
00:10:49,500 --> 00:10:53,100
for some reason, the car can't 
handle it, and I'm going to 

193
00:10:53,100 --> 00:10:55,900
highlight my and this is a, this
isn't something we should take C

194
00:10:55,900 --> 00:10:58,400
appears and experiments of the 
order of a minute. 

195
00:10:58,800 --> 00:11:01,000
Maybe a little bit quicker. 
I'm talking about the order of 

196
00:11:01,000 --> 00:11:04,000
minutes to hand over control and
that's just way too slow. 

197
00:11:04,300 --> 00:11:08,500
Yeah, I think the problem here 
is that, if you, they've 

198
00:11:08,500 --> 00:11:11,400
essentially represented to me, 
it does rules out the 

199
00:11:11,400 --> 00:11:14,800
possibility of going to be have 
autonomous driving in such a 

200
00:11:14,800 --> 00:11:16,800
crowded spaces with a little 
things going on. 

201
00:11:16,800 --> 00:11:18,000
I think you can. 
So totally imagine. 

202
00:11:18,000 --> 00:11:20,400
It's actually for certain how 
the motorway driving, 

203
00:11:20,700 --> 00:11:23,600
particularly have dedicated 
Lanes, but even the dead without

204
00:11:23,600 --> 00:11:26,800
that, then you may well be. 
It may be possible to have to 

205
00:11:26,800 --> 00:11:29,200
draw the hand control and to 
slowly. 

206
00:11:29,300 --> 00:11:31,500
If we have Hope you have enough 
notice of crises that are 

207
00:11:31,508 --> 00:11:32,900
occurring in the part time work 
for you. 

208
00:11:32,900 --> 00:11:36,500
Would you can, you can take 
take, take, take, take, take the

209
00:11:36,500 --> 00:11:40,000
control back to the person 
that's needed, but for any other

210
00:11:40,100 --> 00:11:42,600
pretty much any other scenario. 
I think it's essentially 

211
00:11:42,600 --> 00:11:46,500
hopeless and I think this is a 
kind of screaming me serious 

212
00:11:46,500 --> 00:11:49,800
problem, which I think the 
fields is just kind of, always, 

213
00:11:49,800 --> 00:11:53,000
always try to hide from and so I
think that's one is really 

214
00:11:53,000 --> 00:11:57,300
difficult to solve that problem.
Yeah, go go ahead, please. 

215
00:11:57,600 --> 00:11:59,700
One brother problem that. 
I've personally noticed is that 

216
00:11:59,900 --> 00:12:03,500
I was recently driving this 
fancy electric car that had 

217
00:12:04,200 --> 00:12:07,500
pretty good navigation system 
that allow for both managing 

218
00:12:07,500 --> 00:12:09,800
speed and also the stay in the 
lanes. 

219
00:12:10,300 --> 00:12:13,200
And one Quirk that I hadn't 
thought about before was to 

220
00:12:13,208 --> 00:12:16,800
study of that. 
I worked a lot in researching 

221
00:12:16,800 --> 00:12:20,100
habits and understanding how we 
design for how much conditioning

222
00:12:20,100 --> 00:12:23,400
in practice and aging thing with
the cards that is very 

223
00:12:23,700 --> 00:12:26,500
contextually, stable 
environment. 

224
00:12:26,500 --> 00:12:29,900
You're if you're driving a car, 
you're always kind of As 

225
00:12:29,900 --> 00:12:32,800
expected to push down the 
throttle if you want to. 

226
00:12:32,808 --> 00:12:35,700
Guess if any of you want to stay
or you just hearing you haven't 

227
00:12:35,700 --> 00:12:39,700
really, you know, changing that.
However, suddenly you're 

228
00:12:39,700 --> 00:12:44,000
expected to sometimes, not do 
that and sometimes do it and 

229
00:12:44,000 --> 00:12:46,200
sometimes fear and not sounds 
not stare. 

230
00:12:46,500 --> 00:12:50,400
And I noticed myself in which 
after having gone on a highway 

231
00:12:50,700 --> 00:12:56,400
and then going into a more urban
area to almost forgetting to 

232
00:12:56,400 --> 00:12:59,400
stare like Ayo. 
I realize that, oh, even for 

233
00:12:59,400 --> 00:13:02,100
this Very minimal, contextual 
change here. 

234
00:13:02,700 --> 00:13:06,600
I kind of thought that, okay? 
Male my brain was thinking, you 

235
00:13:06,600 --> 00:13:09,100
know, okay maybe the habit now 
is to not have to steer. 

236
00:13:10,300 --> 00:13:13,300
Yeah, that's really interesting 
to handle that and that's so 

237
00:13:13,300 --> 00:13:15,000
true. 
Isn't it from habit? 

238
00:13:15,000 --> 00:13:16,900
Formation? 
For two years is pretty tricky 

239
00:13:17,200 --> 00:13:19,600
and it's going to be especially 
tricky and environments which 

240
00:13:19,600 --> 00:13:23,400
are kind of intermediate so if 
we were in a kind of a built-up 

241
00:13:23,400 --> 00:13:25,500
area but it's a big double lane 
road. 

242
00:13:25,700 --> 00:13:27,000
You maybe you think? 
Oh yeah. 

243
00:13:27,000 --> 00:13:29,300
Double lane road. 
Yeah, like hands off the wheel. 

244
00:13:30,400 --> 00:13:32,400
In fact, you know you need to be
paying attention. 

245
00:13:32,700 --> 00:13:34,300
Yes. 
But you're quite right. 

246
00:13:34,300 --> 00:13:37,100
That's quite a serious problem. 
They're related issue on the 

247
00:13:37,100 --> 00:13:41,800
same thing, but a similar one is
the problem of the that Abby's 

248
00:13:41,800 --> 00:13:44,800
killing to. 
Because if you're in a car all 

249
00:13:44,800 --> 00:13:47,900
the time, your continue doing my
crew steering adjustments, 

250
00:13:47,900 --> 00:13:50,500
you're getting good at getting 
good at and maintaining that 

251
00:13:50,500 --> 00:13:53,800
skill because it's the only time
you ever we do that. 

252
00:13:53,800 --> 00:13:56,000
We literally occasionally the 
more occasional that comes the 

253
00:13:56,008 --> 00:13:58,000
best. 
The system gets of the worst you

254
00:13:58,000 --> 00:14:00,700
the less need you. 
The worst Ruby, but he doesn't 

255
00:14:00,700 --> 00:14:01,900
need you. 
You're gonna be hopeless. 

256
00:14:01,900 --> 00:14:06,200
Mmm. 
Yeah, those are credits as well.

257
00:14:06,400 --> 00:14:12,000
This is a yellow, third thing 
that you know that the more the 

258
00:14:12,000 --> 00:14:14,900
better the system is the more 
desperate situation is. 

259
00:14:14,900 --> 00:14:17,300
If you're caught brought into 
human, which is pretty 

260
00:14:17,300 --> 00:14:20,900
terrified. 
Because all I know is I do where

261
00:14:20,900 --> 00:14:23,000
I am, but I do know, something 
really bad is happening, and I 

262
00:14:23,000 --> 00:14:25,200
go do something quite 
complicated that the cartel do 

263
00:14:25,700 --> 00:14:27,800
and that's that's not going to 
lead to the best decision 

264
00:14:27,800 --> 00:14:29,800
making. 
I think it's exactly this is Uh,

265
00:14:29,800 --> 00:14:34,300
yeah, this is a really, really 
hard hard difficult problem so 

266
00:14:34,300 --> 00:14:36,000
and the other one, definitely 
nothing. 

267
00:14:36,000 --> 00:14:38,500
There are two, these are lots of
these, but I think the other one

268
00:14:38,600 --> 00:14:42,300
I think is really serious and 
difficult to manage is the 

269
00:14:42,300 --> 00:14:45,100
interaction between the vehicle 
and other Road users. 

270
00:14:45,100 --> 00:14:47,300
So let's just say our vehicles 
for now but it could be 

271
00:14:47,300 --> 00:14:49,800
pedestrians and cyclists on 
well. 

272
00:14:51,200 --> 00:14:53,500
And then what I'm going to do 
want to focus on particularly is

273
00:14:53,500 --> 00:14:56,200
it something that I've done a 
lot of work on with Jennifer 

274
00:14:56,200 --> 00:14:59,500
miss you he was a longtime 
postdoc at Warwick we had a 

275
00:14:59,500 --> 00:15:02,100
project. 
Act now funded by Jaguar, Land 

276
00:15:02,100 --> 00:15:04,400
Rover. 
The EPS rc1 with UK funding 

277
00:15:04,400 --> 00:15:06,900
council is looking at the 
feasibility of autonomous 

278
00:15:06,900 --> 00:15:10,300
driving a big team of all the 
people for Jennifer and I will 

279
00:15:10,300 --> 00:15:12,800
focus on question. 
How are you going to manage 

280
00:15:13,700 --> 00:15:16,700
these interactions between 
autonomous vehicles and and 

281
00:15:16,700 --> 00:15:19,600
regular vehicles? 
And the problem I think is that 

282
00:15:20,100 --> 00:15:23,800
that when we're dealing with 
human drivers, one human drugs 

283
00:15:23,800 --> 00:15:26,100
for mother often a matter of she
would drive to a pedestrian. 

284
00:15:26,800 --> 00:15:29,200
If we, we understand that the 
interaction were engaging in is 

285
00:15:29,200 --> 00:15:31,100
a Ready. 
Social interaction. 

286
00:15:31,200 --> 00:15:33,700
What I mean by that is if for 
example, something is an 

287
00:15:33,700 --> 00:15:36,400
injunction front of me. 
There's a kind of question of. 

288
00:15:36,400 --> 00:15:38,400
Am I going to let you? 
I'm going to let you throw mine.

289
00:15:38,400 --> 00:15:41,200
I'm going to let you through and
so if I slow down slightly or I 

290
00:15:41,200 --> 00:15:43,400
flash my lights or whatever the 
conventions aren't, if the 

291
00:15:43,400 --> 00:15:46,800
country, then it's kind of an 
invitation. 

292
00:15:46,800 --> 00:15:50,400
So yeah, I'm willing to let you 
through off, you go actually. 

293
00:15:50,400 --> 00:15:53,400
It's not but I'm just traveling 
along as a sort of a ballistic 

294
00:15:53,400 --> 00:15:56,400
necking the piece of machinery. 
And actually I sort of social 

295
00:15:56,400 --> 00:15:59,200
age making invitation as 
suggesting to you and then you 

296
00:15:59,200 --> 00:16:02,100
would recognize Something oh 
yeah then he sees where I reach 

297
00:16:02,100 --> 00:16:04,000
come through. 
So I slowed down a bit now, he's

298
00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:06,500
got to slow down more because he
point the reason slowdowns to 

299
00:16:06,500 --> 00:16:09,600
tell you go. 
If I go then to contrast and 

300
00:16:10,000 --> 00:16:12,700
have you start to misread those 
who feel really good, really 

301
00:16:12,700 --> 00:16:15,100
good on this issue. 
We are social social being 

302
00:16:15,100 --> 00:16:17,300
through and through, and makes 
me good at meeting each other as

303
00:16:17,300 --> 00:16:19,200
an intention to making 
suggestions and understanding. 

304
00:16:19,200 --> 00:16:20,400
Yeah, you wanted to do this. 
Oh no. 

305
00:16:20,400 --> 00:16:22,800
You don't want me to do that. 
That's what human beings are. 

306
00:16:23,100 --> 00:16:25,300
That's a acid was super power, 
really? 

307
00:16:25,300 --> 00:16:28,900
But but as soon as one of the 
parties is of it is a machine 

308
00:16:29,200 --> 00:16:31,300
unless he Can do that reasoning 
just as well as we can, we're 

309
00:16:31,308 --> 00:16:34,400
going to get into real trouble. 
So it could be for example that 

310
00:16:34,400 --> 00:16:37,900
our car might slow down before 
Junction and appears letting 

311
00:16:37,900 --> 00:16:40,200
never be able through and you 
might be slowing down for some 

312
00:16:40,200 --> 00:16:42,700
totally different reason about 
slowing down concern and there's

313
00:16:42,700 --> 00:16:45,400
something on the road but if a 
human were in that situation, 

314
00:16:45,400 --> 00:16:46,900
they don't know. 
I must I do be careful here 

315
00:16:46,900 --> 00:16:49,600
because I'm going to discuss 
going to come out because he's 

316
00:16:49,600 --> 00:16:52,800
gonna think I'm signaling and I 
machine my will not do that. 

317
00:16:53,000 --> 00:16:55,900
It will just didn't just 
disappear stylish the first 

318
00:16:55,900 --> 00:16:59,000
system so be sure to have in 
front of them and and and this 

319
00:16:59,300 --> 00:17:03,300
this This is like a really, 
really, really, really difficult

320
00:17:03,300 --> 00:17:06,700
problem to solve. 
I think, because the the nature 

321
00:17:06,700 --> 00:17:10,800
of these interactions is very, 
very succulent fluid and even 

322
00:17:10,800 --> 00:17:13,700
interpretation things like 
lights. 

323
00:17:13,700 --> 00:17:17,200
So you, because I believe you, 
if you indicate right, you're 

324
00:17:17,200 --> 00:17:19,800
going along the row. 
You normally means you're gonna 

325
00:17:19,800 --> 00:17:21,000
turn, right? 
Again, us. 

326
00:17:21,400 --> 00:17:23,500
But since I'm, that means you're
going to go around something. 

327
00:17:23,500 --> 00:17:25,200
There's a thing in front of you,
which means you can have to go 

328
00:17:25,200 --> 00:17:27,900
out into the into the road a 
little so, so I'm not sure you 

329
00:17:27,900 --> 00:17:29,600
get turning right, I'm just 
going out. 

330
00:17:29,700 --> 00:17:32,600
He gets going out of the 
includes the roast lady or it 

331
00:17:32,600 --> 00:17:35,200
might mean, you know, or, for 
example, if you are various 

332
00:17:35,200 --> 00:17:38,700
possible, tell him from me that 
you could be turning down, if 

333
00:17:38,700 --> 00:17:41,600
one of them's, our sort of track
with the gate run from to the, 

334
00:17:41,800 --> 00:17:43,600
then the vehicle behind you for 
he's all yours. 

335
00:17:43,800 --> 00:17:46,200
I'm not turning down that. 
I know that there's a, you know,

336
00:17:46,300 --> 00:17:49,900
a few years later, the road. 
If you're not sure, if you're 

337
00:17:50,100 --> 00:17:52,700
sitting normally, then expect 
person to go down the road. 

338
00:17:52,700 --> 00:17:55,300
You certainly don't expect me 
just to be a off into the Verge,

339
00:17:55,800 --> 00:17:59,100
but on the other hand paint, but
they could write because I've 

340
00:17:59,100 --> 00:18:01,000
got a hunch. 
Take a right to know if I go 

341
00:18:01,000 --> 00:18:05,100
into a field but of course you 
need to read the stuff correctly

342
00:18:05,100 --> 00:18:07,900
again because otherwise you use 
an eternal spirit. 

343
00:18:07,900 --> 00:18:09,900
You're going to make the wrong 
assumptions about what people 

344
00:18:09,900 --> 00:18:13,300
are going to do. 
And I think it had an extra 

345
00:18:13,300 --> 00:18:16,400
righteousness problem. 
I think especially problem is 

346
00:18:16,400 --> 00:18:18,900
that in this goes back to your 
point earlier just about not 

347
00:18:18,900 --> 00:18:21,100
really, not really knowing what 
you're supposed to do as a 

348
00:18:21,108 --> 00:18:23,600
driver. 
So in case of thinking, should I

349
00:18:23,608 --> 00:18:25,800
be stirring or not, I have a 
table for me. 

350
00:18:25,800 --> 00:18:28,600
I would find them if I were to 
note on this vehicle and someone

351
00:18:28,600 --> 00:18:30,000
was waving at me to go. 
Through her. 

352
00:18:30,000 --> 00:18:31,900
I was wait. 
I can imagine myself waiting 

353
00:18:31,900 --> 00:18:35,200
back in a cheery way. 
Say oh yeah yeah yes, great 

354
00:18:35,400 --> 00:18:38,700
because it's not I'm not driving
a car, are you driving? 

355
00:18:38,900 --> 00:18:42,700
So I might be agreeing some Plan
B the truth with all the best 

356
00:18:42,700 --> 00:18:45,200
intentions but I'm not actually 
in control of the car. 

357
00:18:45,500 --> 00:18:47,700
So I would say, come on out. 
Oh no, hang on. 

358
00:18:48,600 --> 00:18:51,400
Now my car's need a hit because 
because I wasn't actually in 

359
00:18:51,400 --> 00:18:53,100
control. 
So you have this terrible 

360
00:18:53,100 --> 00:18:56,000
problem that the people engage 
those complicated signaling and 

361
00:18:56,000 --> 00:18:59,500
social behavior. 
But the trouble is a thing. 

362
00:18:59,800 --> 00:19:02,300
If it's cheating with another 
vehicle epic minute reasons they

363
00:19:02,300 --> 00:19:03,900
do. 
But also there's a person in 

364
00:19:03,900 --> 00:19:08,500
there who may be cheerfully, 
engaging, social behavior, but 

365
00:19:08,500 --> 00:19:11,600
completely erroneous because I'm
not actually moving the kind 

366
00:19:11,600 --> 00:19:15,500
that, actually, this is 
Jennifer. 

367
00:19:15,500 --> 00:19:21,500
I don't have that much. 
It helps to make the autonomous 

368
00:19:21,500 --> 00:19:23,600
vehicle somehow really 
different. 

369
00:19:23,600 --> 00:19:26,800
Well, I was going to say maybe 
it can contribute because yeah, 

370
00:19:26,800 --> 00:19:27,300
go. 
Yeah. 

371
00:19:27,300 --> 00:19:29,500
I think it's going to be good to
set it up a little bit. 

372
00:19:29,600 --> 00:19:33,400
It were like now you have showed
a lot of interesting challenges 

373
00:19:33,400 --> 00:19:35,000
here, right? 
We have you have gone through 

374
00:19:35,000 --> 00:19:37,600
that. 
Clearly of all the problems are 

375
00:19:37,608 --> 00:19:39,900
going to cover in. 
This is another podcast, this 

376
00:19:39,900 --> 00:19:42,900
might be on the spectrum of more
complicated to solve. 

377
00:19:43,400 --> 00:19:49,000
Yeah this podcast if we're at 
the end of this podcast solve at

378
00:19:49,000 --> 00:19:51,900
least one of these. 
You know I was in you would 

379
00:19:51,900 --> 00:19:53,700
become extremely rich here we 
come with me. 

380
00:19:53,800 --> 00:20:00,300
Yeah, some curiously at least in
terms of getting towards The to 

381
00:20:00,500 --> 00:20:04,100
solving some of these things. 
What have you been doing or what

382
00:20:04,100 --> 00:20:06,400
is something that could be 
potentially done to mitigate 

383
00:20:06,400 --> 00:20:13,900
some of these challenges? 
Yeah, so I think the realistic 

384
00:20:13,900 --> 00:20:16,900
short term strategy or also 
tailor from the next five and 

385
00:20:17,100 --> 00:20:20,100
five ten years is I think 
something separate traffic. 

386
00:20:20,100 --> 00:20:23,000
This is the super boring 
approach but I do change 

387
00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:25,100
anything that we want. 
Have lots of autonomous vehicles

388
00:20:25,100 --> 00:20:27,200
on the road just need to 
separate them out from other 

389
00:20:27,200 --> 00:20:30,600
vehicles, at least from some for
some Parts of their journey and 

390
00:20:30,600 --> 00:20:31,900
just keep everybody else away 
from them. 

391
00:20:32,000 --> 00:20:35,600
And we have a somewhat related 
idea to that which is a slightly

392
00:20:35,600 --> 00:20:40,000
less drastic is to treat me 
something like trans, so trans 

393
00:20:40,200 --> 00:20:41,700
but they're not. 
We have you directly travel and 

394
00:20:41,700 --> 00:20:44,600
trying to do what they do. 
And if I want to rodent Ramen, 

395
00:20:44,900 --> 00:20:47,900
as you balance, where I know 
that I need to keep out of its 

396
00:20:47,900 --> 00:20:49,600
way. 
All right, so there's no sense 

397
00:20:49,600 --> 00:20:51,600
in which everything is that 
transmitting through the tram is

398
00:20:51,600 --> 00:20:53,700
just doing what it's doing. 
I'm steering clear of me. 

399
00:20:54,300 --> 00:20:57,700
So I think so, you could either 
have separate spaces or you can 

400
00:20:57,700 --> 00:20:59,300
have essentially totally 
separate. 

401
00:20:59,700 --> 00:21:03,300
Mostly Lanes but also separate 
rooms and you need to be clear 

402
00:21:03,500 --> 00:21:05,800
that these vehicles look 
different to regular vehicles 

403
00:21:05,800 --> 00:21:09,100
and we expected America from. 
So we're basically, humans are 

404
00:21:09,100 --> 00:21:12,600
going to work around these, it's
idiot in your lumps, which will 

405
00:21:12,600 --> 00:21:15,200
be intelligent in their lumps, 
then more intelligent 

406
00:21:15,200 --> 00:21:17,500
intransitive. 
So rails and small, but they're 

407
00:21:17,500 --> 00:21:21,000
still essentially own up Mom, 
tonight to our job, took to work

408
00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:23,400
to work RAM, and I think that's 
the them socially. 

409
00:21:23,400 --> 00:21:24,900
It's not a social interaction 
anymore. 

410
00:21:24,900 --> 00:21:29,000
It's a smart people. 
Kept it carefully and let 

411
00:21:29,000 --> 00:21:31,900
cleverly of voiding the hit by 
them in the same way we wanted 

412
00:21:31,900 --> 00:21:33,900
to translate. 
That's that's, that's one I 

413
00:21:33,908 --> 00:21:35,200
think that's realistic 
possibility. 

414
00:21:35,700 --> 00:21:39,400
Would you would you explain 
plate that as well to then the 

415
00:21:39,400 --> 00:21:42,900
kind of inner workings and slow?
Would you then say that maybe 

416
00:21:42,900 --> 00:21:46,000
it's not a good thing that you 
have this vehicle that could be 

417
00:21:46,200 --> 00:21:48,500
doing multiple things like in 
himself. 

418
00:21:48,700 --> 00:21:51,400
It's a terrorist. 
Yes, you know go Max mentioned 

419
00:21:53,300 --> 00:21:54,900
you're right. 
Actually I think you probably 

420
00:21:54,900 --> 00:21:56,500
want this vehicle to be 
predictable. 

421
00:21:56,900 --> 00:21:59,200
So you don't want to stick a do 
much like a human driver. 

422
00:21:59,200 --> 00:22:01,400
You probably. 
To be quite simple fold. 

423
00:22:01,500 --> 00:22:03,200
The clearly wants to be very 
clever. 

424
00:22:03,400 --> 00:22:05,700
Seeing children bicycles in 
front of it. 

425
00:22:05,700 --> 00:22:07,800
Stopping like anything, you 
wouldn't be incredibly good at 

426
00:22:07,800 --> 00:22:10,400
safety but you probably don't 
want it to be engaging in 

427
00:22:10,400 --> 00:22:12,300
complicated interactions with 
other drivers. 

428
00:22:12,600 --> 00:22:14,800
You want if you want to be 
making it as a simple simple as 

429
00:22:14,800 --> 00:22:17,000
you can. 
Yeah, so that's one strategy. 

430
00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:18,800
I think that's really a viable 
strategy. 

431
00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:21,800
I think that the longer term 
things is, what we've been 

432
00:22:21,800 --> 00:22:24,500
working on. 
So theoretically, which is much 

433
00:22:24,500 --> 00:22:29,300
harder is trying to get AI 
system to actually do the kind 

434
00:22:29,300 --> 00:22:30,800
of social Social reason that we 
do. 

435
00:22:31,100 --> 00:22:34,000
And I think what I'll say a bit 
about what that means and from 

436
00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:35,900
our perspective, but also why 
it's hard. 

437
00:22:36,400 --> 00:22:39,500
So so the word we considered 
conceptualize. 

438
00:22:39,500 --> 00:22:42,400
Social reason is as a process of
what we call virtual bargain. 

439
00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:45,700
So what I mean by virtual is 
that you don't actually have to 

440
00:22:45,708 --> 00:22:47,500
do the bargaining to and fro 
explicitly. 

441
00:22:47,600 --> 00:22:51,100
But you just kind of think if we
can agree what to do here, we 

442
00:22:51,100 --> 00:22:53,600
could if we could talk, what 
would we conclude? 

443
00:22:53,900 --> 00:22:56,200
And, and sometimes we have to 
actually talk, sometimes it's 

444
00:22:56,200 --> 00:22:58,600
not obvious what we should do, 
but a lot of the time social 

445
00:22:58,600 --> 00:23:01,700
interactions. 
Require some kind of know. 

446
00:23:01,700 --> 00:23:03,700
Now it's my turn to be natural 
to speak. 

447
00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:06,100
I'm holding the door. 
You're supposed to go through 

448
00:23:06,100 --> 00:23:07,600
it. 
If you don't give you another go

449
00:23:07,600 --> 00:23:10,900
through it, you gotta say, no, 
don't have the door, you can't 

450
00:23:10,900 --> 00:23:13,300
just leave me standing with 
hollyoaks the door for ages. 

451
00:23:13,500 --> 00:23:16,800
The all these things, we that 
these certain attraction 

452
00:23:16,800 --> 00:23:19,400
engaging. 
They're all eat, quite naturally

453
00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:22,400
framed in terms of what would we
be if you talk about. 

454
00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:26,700
So, do taking something like the
the load current Curb Your 

455
00:23:26,700 --> 00:23:29,000
Enthusiasm episode number. 
Yeah, right. 

456
00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:31,100
Right. 
So yeah, well I think actually 

457
00:23:31,500 --> 00:23:36,000
huge about huge amounts of sort 
of drama and zip codes and 

458
00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:39,300
indeed, you think humor General 
is all about the violation and 

459
00:23:39,300 --> 00:23:41,500
Distortion of those rules. 
They want us expect one thing, 

460
00:23:41,500 --> 00:23:43,700
one was expecting everything, 
and then. 

461
00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:47,800
So in case of something like 
driving, then you've got kind of

462
00:23:47,800 --> 00:23:51,300
questions of, yeah, I'm gonna 
turn out in front of you. 

463
00:23:51,500 --> 00:23:54,600
How far are you how far am i 
what's the one of the spots of 

464
00:23:54,600 --> 00:23:56,600
General speed of trafficking was
Road? 

465
00:23:56,700 --> 00:23:59,100
Did you get you through example,
suppose you wave at me? 

466
00:23:59,700 --> 00:24:02,600
Flash, your lights UK that have 
natural thing to do. 

467
00:24:02,700 --> 00:24:05,700
So I'm on the main road you're 
just coming out. 

468
00:24:05,700 --> 00:24:08,500
I flash my last slowed slightly.
So what's the point of that 

469
00:24:08,500 --> 00:24:10,000
flash? 
But it could be getting sort of 

470
00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:13,100
us any convention, but you don't
need a convention is saying 

471
00:24:13,100 --> 00:24:16,200
something, like, I'm sending you
a message, what could it be? 

472
00:24:16,500 --> 00:24:18,600
Well, it's going to be, if it 
gets that, if I'm slowly slide, 

473
00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:20,700
it's gonna be go, right? 
We're out. 

474
00:24:20,700 --> 00:24:22,300
What else have you? 
You know, there's no other 

475
00:24:22,300 --> 00:24:24,100
message. 
So then you think, well, you 

476
00:24:24,100 --> 00:24:27,100
sending me a message or your 
maybe you're waving to. 

477
00:24:27,100 --> 00:24:30,800
You mean, this is invitation and
And that's the nothing natural 

478
00:24:30,800 --> 00:24:34,200
thing to do. 
So to get an artificial system 

479
00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:37,300
to mimic that, it's just going 
to be really difficult because 

480
00:24:37,500 --> 00:24:41,100
that artificial system has to 
understand the situation that 

481
00:24:41,100 --> 00:24:44,500
the that it and the human 
driver. 

482
00:24:44,500 --> 00:24:46,800
I in, in the same way, has seen.
Yeah. 

483
00:24:46,900 --> 00:24:50,400
You the human driver can see me 
and I can see you and you're 

484
00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:51,700
slowing. 
I can see that you're slowing. 

485
00:24:51,700 --> 00:24:54,200
Hive way you've seen it, I've 
wave more stuff. 

486
00:24:54,500 --> 00:24:56,200
And so that's first. 
We have to establish common 

487
00:24:56,200 --> 00:24:57,500
knowledge, which is pretty 
difficult. 

488
00:24:57,500 --> 00:24:59,400
And then it has to think, what 
in that situation you want. 

489
00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:03,000
Thing to do is this and the 
quote, obviously, if there was 

490
00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:05,300
crucial that social 
interactions, is that they work.

491
00:25:05,300 --> 00:25:08,100
Well when we agree, what the 
obvious thing is and when it 

492
00:25:08,100 --> 00:25:10,300
when it, when we disagree then 
we can I get cross with each 

493
00:25:10,300 --> 00:25:12,700
other. 
But of course the machine has to

494
00:25:12,700 --> 00:25:15,600
think along the same lines as 
video about what is the obvious 

495
00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:18,200
sensible thing to do. 
And that's, that's, that's 

496
00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:20,500
trying to mimic a lot of human 
and social intelligence there. 

497
00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:24,400
So I think it's pretty hard. 
It's definitely tricky. 

498
00:25:24,400 --> 00:25:27,600
I wonder if one sort of 
compromise solution without 

499
00:25:27,600 --> 00:25:31,600
getting it Perfection is for. 
The machine to just have very 

500
00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:36,600
clear explicit modes of 
communication that when I flash 

501
00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:41,300
my lights twice you know as a 
car it means in this or 

502
00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:45,900
basically just outlining all of 
those kind of informal ways of 

503
00:25:45,900 --> 00:25:48,200
communicating that we as humans 
have. 

504
00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:51,500
And just saying this is what it 
means when the car does this and

505
00:25:51,500 --> 00:25:54,100
then creating sort of that 
evolution of a common 

506
00:25:54,100 --> 00:25:56,100
understanding and the Machine 
World. 

507
00:25:56,100 --> 00:26:00,200
Yeah, I think you all could you 
write What you're doing is 

508
00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:02,500
you're taking a step and I think
it's the Right Step. 

509
00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:06,100
Beyond the machine, is simply 
going about his own business. 

510
00:26:06,300 --> 00:26:09,800
And I'm just avoiding it to 
actually leave the tram model, 

511
00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:13,700
is that it never lets me through
it just goes charging by and I 

512
00:26:13,700 --> 00:26:15,300
knew that. 
So I'm going to go confront of 

513
00:26:15,300 --> 00:26:19,900
it I but what Kevin would be an 
idiot to do so and that's kind 

514
00:26:19,900 --> 00:26:22,600
of common understanding is not 
really required because this is 

515
00:26:22,600 --> 00:26:24,900
just another email subject in 
world is going about its 

516
00:26:24,900 --> 00:26:27,800
business of Cleopatra, Scott 
with Mighty braking systems and 

517
00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:30,600
clearer vision and so on. 
But but David, rather treat it 

518
00:26:30,600 --> 00:26:34,800
simply isn't as a as a lump. 
It's not, it's not sentient, 

519
00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:37,300
being I think a Step Beyond 
that. 

520
00:26:37,300 --> 00:26:40,900
Absolutely, is to say, well, 
could have this is this 

521
00:26:40,900 --> 00:26:43,400
essentially, this is a being, 
which is clean. 

522
00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:45,300
We don't know, don't know, one 
people treated essentially 

523
00:26:45,300 --> 00:26:47,300
being. 
We don't think it's, it's, it's 

524
00:26:47,300 --> 00:26:49,700
reasoning and thinking because 
then I'll start, you can take a 

525
00:26:49,708 --> 00:26:53,300
person but indeed. 
If you wanted to have a signal 

526
00:26:53,300 --> 00:26:55,800
for left people through, you 
should have a maybe even the 

527
00:26:55,800 --> 00:26:59,200
words, you know, please go from 
you to you can go whatever. 

528
00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:03,300
But you keep it as distinct as 
possible from natural human 

529
00:27:03,300 --> 00:27:04,200
interactions. 
I think. 

530
00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:07,300
And what you don't want to go to
somebody in the in the cabin of 

531
00:27:07,300 --> 00:27:18,600
the vehicle smiling and waving, 
so you've got two things in one 

532
00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:21,300
thing that I, you know, through 
this thought about that. 

533
00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:23,100
I didn't think about the 
complexity of this, you know, in

534
00:27:23,100 --> 00:27:26,700
terms of this things that can be
misinterpreted problem, traffic,

535
00:27:27,100 --> 00:27:29,300
I think very selling for me is 
study of honking. 

536
00:27:29,500 --> 00:27:33,600
And because I'm from Sweden in 
Stockholm honk here in summer 

537
00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:36,700
home gets like the most exotic 
thing in the world looks like oh

538
00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:44,300
those two years ago, but that's 
not always the case in other 

539
00:27:44,300 --> 00:27:48,900
countries and in some countries 
some cities, you know, one home 

540
00:27:48,900 --> 00:27:52,100
can mean a million different 
things to seemingly depending on

541
00:27:52,100 --> 00:27:54,200
the context. 
It can be seeing as friendly 

542
00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:58,400
thing aggressive thing, 
accusatory thing. 

543
00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:02,500
And so just Just that part like 
signaling through honking like 

544
00:28:02,500 --> 00:28:06,000
that seems like a very complex 
thing over cultural Dimensions. 

545
00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:07,700
Yeah, yeah, yeah. 
I think you're right. 

546
00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:09,600
I think it's both complex across
cultures. 

547
00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:11,800
And that's a very big issue for 
vehicle manufacturers, of 

548
00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:14,300
course, because they have to 
produce a vehicle that's going 

549
00:28:14,300 --> 00:28:16,700
to work everywhere and even the 
same Vehicles going to work 

550
00:28:16,700 --> 00:28:19,200
everywhere. 
So on, I don't take my vehicle 

551
00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:22,100
drive, you don't drive your 
vehicle from Sweden to whistling

552
00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:25,500
and they said, it's just doesn't
know what it's doing, it's gonna

553
00:28:25,500 --> 00:28:31,900
be disastrous. 
But the other cars will kind of 

554
00:28:31,900 --> 00:28:35,800
in computer speaker or Autumn 
speak say like hey if you don't 

555
00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:38,100
know our language while you're 
coming here you know like this 

556
00:28:40,100 --> 00:28:43,100
really matter. 
So I think that's that's one 

557
00:28:43,100 --> 00:28:45,700
issue and the other issue which 
evening you pointed out with 

558
00:28:45,700 --> 00:28:50,200
your multiple meanings of is 
that in some contexts in some 

559
00:28:50,500 --> 00:28:54,300
societies, a single signal is 
going to be just incredibly hard

560
00:28:54,300 --> 00:28:56,300
to interpret and very 
contextual. 

561
00:28:56,500 --> 00:28:59,300
So that's, you know, that's 
really really hard to you. 

562
00:28:59,500 --> 00:29:02,900
Comfort to get that wrong and 
particular home and they're 

563
00:29:02,900 --> 00:29:05,800
aggressive honks. 
I have really loud. 

564
00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:08,800
Continuous Hogs that you kind of
unfriendly with Eric idle toots 

565
00:29:08,800 --> 00:29:11,000
just say, oh, you probably have 
seen that the lights change in 

566
00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:13,000
front of you. 
And your, you might want to go. 

567
00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:15,000
That's a kind of friendly 
helpful thing, but it's also in 

568
00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:18,100
the tone. 
And again, if you imagine your 

569
00:29:18,100 --> 00:29:20,400
track, your interaction with the
vehicle and using as a person. 

570
00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:22,800
If any reason first never, 
they're not listening or trying 

571
00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:25,700
vehicle and one of those 
friendly honks saying go on, you

572
00:29:25,700 --> 00:29:27,700
can go and the vehicles, not 
moving. 

573
00:29:27,700 --> 00:29:29,300
Then this is rapidly. 
Going to turn. 

574
00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:32,700
Into some irritation and 
frustration, then all the other 

575
00:29:32,700 --> 00:29:34,900
thing I should say, actually I 
think that this is really under 

576
00:29:34,900 --> 00:29:37,500
favor, the common factor. 
So if you talk to sort of car 

577
00:29:37,500 --> 00:29:40,000
manufacturers out this they at 
least the ones I've talked to, 

578
00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:42,800
they really, really don't want 
to think about this problem, but

579
00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:46,100
it is I think we're in serious 
is social embarrassment. 

580
00:29:46,100 --> 00:29:49,100
So think that human being 
really, really care about as we 

581
00:29:49,100 --> 00:29:52,500
want that, we're all human being
is doing something which is just

582
00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:54,200
foolish in front of other 
people. 

583
00:29:54,700 --> 00:29:58,400
So, so if you imagine being 
told, I wanted to drive down the

584
00:29:58,400 --> 00:30:02,300
road but Every time I don't need
to be incredibly cautious in 

585
00:30:02,300 --> 00:30:06,200
your driving so that if there's 
any possibility you might sorry 

586
00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:08,300
might be bad in front of your 
energy, you start to really slow

587
00:30:08,300 --> 00:30:10,900
down dramatically and just wait.
Even if those cars behind you 

588
00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:13,600
and when you're around about 
your at the junction there in, 

589
00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:14,800
this is an enormous amount of 
space. 

590
00:30:14,800 --> 00:30:17,700
You just got to wait and this 
would be so painful, you imagine

591
00:30:17,700 --> 00:30:19,700
trying to do this. 
You, you have people's hearts. 

592
00:30:20,600 --> 00:30:22,400
Oh God damn. 
But of course if you're an 

593
00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:25,300
autonomous vehicle, you may well
be in that exact situation. 

594
00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:27,800
So it's not behaving as you 
would your thinking. 

595
00:30:27,800 --> 00:30:30,600
What is it doing? 
I'm so Oh sorry, I'm so sorry 

596
00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:33,600
but it's like I know what I'm 
not controlling its otherwise 

597
00:30:33,600 --> 00:30:37,000
not going out in front of this 
this this round about now but 

598
00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:38,600
it's a decent. 
And so you've got this 

599
00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:41,700
tremendous disconnect between 
what you feel is the socially 

600
00:30:41,700 --> 00:30:43,500
appropriate thing to do what's 
actually happening. 

601
00:30:43,800 --> 00:30:45,900
So there I think it again, it's 
fine. 

602
00:30:45,900 --> 00:30:48,900
If you're as it were in a tram 
or a tram with messages. 

603
00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:51,000
Flashing saying, you're saying, 
what's going on. 

604
00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:53,300
Yeah, because I never want to 
expose the trams to do with you.

605
00:30:53,300 --> 00:30:55,600
You're just a passenger, but if 
it feels like it's kind of 

606
00:30:55,800 --> 00:30:58,800
either, it's me driving. 
She's the worst or its kind of 

607
00:30:58,800 --> 00:31:01,500
my car. 
My role to make this thing work 

608
00:31:01,500 --> 00:31:04,800
from failing. 
That's you know I can imagine a 

609
00:31:04,808 --> 00:31:08,500
be absolute torture so you can 
actually put multifunctional 

610
00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:10,500
turning it off as soon as you 
possibly can. 

611
00:31:11,300 --> 00:31:14,400
There's this reminds me as an 
undergraduate, taking social 

612
00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:17,800
psychology, for the first time I
had to do an exercise where I 

613
00:31:17,800 --> 00:31:20,900
violated some social norm and 
the one that I chose was 

614
00:31:20,900 --> 00:31:25,200
driving, I think it was like 20 
miles per hour below the speed 

615
00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:28,600
limit and it was just the most 
horrible feeling, you know, I 

616
00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:30,400
just had that sinking. 
Sensation looking around. 

617
00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:33,500
Like I'm sitting like, it's not 
my fault. 

618
00:31:33,500 --> 00:31:36,800
I'm doing good, they have to, 
and like really just like that 

619
00:31:36,800 --> 00:31:40,300
need to like, explain the 
situation. 

620
00:31:40,300 --> 00:31:42,800
So yeah, I think that's very 
relevant. 

621
00:31:42,800 --> 00:31:46,300
So what concept that I think 
really see bleeding into this 

622
00:31:46,300 --> 00:31:49,900
whole discussion and one that 
you've touched upon a lot or, 

623
00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:54,900
you know, very much recently is 
just this idea of intervening at

624
00:31:54,900 --> 00:31:57,400
a systems level or at the 
individual level. 

625
00:31:57,400 --> 00:32:01,100
And I want to talk about the 
Frame is what you call the 

626
00:32:01,400 --> 00:32:03,700
intervening at the individual 
level, versus the system's 

627
00:32:03,700 --> 00:32:05,900
level. 
And so you can kind of see this 

628
00:32:05,900 --> 00:32:08,800
in the way that you design the 
rose and whether you separate 

629
00:32:08,800 --> 00:32:12,100
the cars as being more of a 
systems level versus the kinds 

630
00:32:12,100 --> 00:32:14,500
of signaling that you give 
either. 

631
00:32:14,500 --> 00:32:17,900
Whether it's to the 
quote-unquote driver or to the 

632
00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:22,200
person who's in the car. 
And so, I want to just just hear

633
00:32:22,500 --> 00:32:26,300
your take on how, you know, 
Behavioral Science as a field. 

634
00:32:26,300 --> 00:32:30,700
What we have done so far maybe 
where we've gone Gone wrong, and

635
00:32:31,100 --> 00:32:34,600
the relative impact of these two
types of approaches. 

636
00:32:34,800 --> 00:32:35,300
Yeah. 
Okay. 

637
00:32:35,300 --> 00:32:38,600
That's a very good question. 
So what if you're mentioning is 

638
00:32:38,900 --> 00:32:40,400
joint work with your vote? 
Steve. 

639
00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:43,700
Who said by every colonist at 
Carnegie Mellon and George and I

640
00:32:43,700 --> 00:32:46,500
are both independently, just 
mixed up together. 

641
00:32:46,500 --> 00:32:50,200
Being involved with, trying to 
make give advice to government 

642
00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:53,500
selected companies, on 
behavioral behavioral stuff, 

643
00:32:53,500 --> 00:32:57,200
they can do that. 
And I guess we both struggled 

644
00:32:57,300 --> 00:32:59,300
over the years starting with 
great optimism. 

645
00:32:59,500 --> 00:33:01,000
Thinking, how about we must 
know. 

646
00:33:01,000 --> 00:33:04,800
So many useful things with us. 
You're just a fountain of great 

647
00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:06,500
ideas that will get help people 
with. 

648
00:33:06,600 --> 00:33:10,000
And, and gradually discovering 
that most of the things that we 

649
00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:13,600
know which are which are really 
helpful, but then that then 

650
00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:16,100
they're helpful in effect to a 
fairly limited degree. 

651
00:33:16,300 --> 00:33:19,700
So, for example, one that's very
close to my heart is climate 

652
00:33:19,700 --> 00:33:22,000
change. 
So the drivers on a committee in

653
00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:25,100
the United Kingdom, pulled the 
climate change committee, and 

654
00:33:25,100 --> 00:33:27,300
that's the committee, the sex, 
UK targets. 

655
00:33:27,500 --> 00:33:31,300
So, the UK now has a net zero. 
Agate having a Target is 17, the

656
00:33:31,300 --> 00:33:33,300
tubing and of course, but we're 
supposed to get some notes, you 

657
00:33:33,300 --> 00:33:37,600
eventually get the slot and so 
this committee both sets the 

658
00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:40,300
target to at least it proposes a
government to government steps. 

659
00:33:40,300 --> 00:33:43,900
In this case, I also most 
progress so it's interesting. 

660
00:33:43,900 --> 00:33:48,700
2008, will speed 2008 three 
outdoor 2008 or 2010. 

661
00:33:48,700 --> 00:33:51,800
I've now forgotten that the 
Boone family tree jacket came 

662
00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:53,500
in. 
There's been a statutory can see

663
00:33:53,500 --> 00:33:56,100
this looks like this and has a 
bunch of most. 

664
00:33:56,100 --> 00:33:59,300
The academics who just see how 
this process is going. 

665
00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:03,100
Advice on, what needs to be done
to make sure that the things 

666
00:34:03,100 --> 00:34:05,300
they don't track? 
I was there as behavioral person

667
00:34:05,900 --> 00:34:07,900
and it was fantastic, 
interesting experience. 

668
00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:12,800
But I became increasingly aware 
of the fact that the kind of 

669
00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:14,300
things. 
I started off thinking would be 

670
00:34:14,300 --> 00:34:17,699
really helpful tended, to be 
immensely, really marginal 

671
00:34:17,699 --> 00:34:21,100
significant so thinking, oh, 
we're maybe just help people 

672
00:34:21,600 --> 00:34:24,699
reduce their energy by finding 
out what their neighbors energy 

673
00:34:25,699 --> 00:34:29,199
consumption is or maybe we can 
help them with a bit of both. 

674
00:34:29,699 --> 00:34:32,600
Giving them smart meters and 
help them optimize you when they

675
00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:35,800
have their appliances on. 
So maybe they realize how it 

676
00:34:35,800 --> 00:34:37,300
much cheaper. 
How these my part is that Mike 

677
00:34:37,300 --> 00:34:39,000
to we're going to bounce the 
load on the grid more 

678
00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:40,199
effectively and things like 
this. 

679
00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:43,800
And he starts the almost 
uniformly of really, really 

680
00:34:43,800 --> 00:34:45,800
marginal significance, that sort
of you want. 

681
00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:47,699
A cheaper said, max kind of 
things. 

682
00:34:48,199 --> 00:34:50,800
Where's all the real action? 
It's just changing the entire 

683
00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:52,800
system. 
So, obviously Renown valuable 

684
00:34:52,800 --> 00:34:56,400
things in a way, like just just 
electrifying degrees. 

685
00:34:56,400 --> 00:34:58,800
Just make sure they're almost 
all of how we generated to 

686
00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:01,500
renewable. 
Hugely important, but obviously 

687
00:35:01,500 --> 00:35:03,700
things like having an 
infrastructure for the future of

688
00:35:03,700 --> 00:35:07,700
electric, charging for food, 
electric vehicles, regulating 

689
00:35:07,700 --> 00:35:15,100
for fuel, efficiency, regulating
for the phase-out of fossil 

690
00:35:15,100 --> 00:35:17,600
fuels and things like the 
shipping and discuss the 

691
00:35:17,600 --> 00:35:19,500
deviation. 
So you've just got all these 

692
00:35:19,500 --> 00:35:22,100
really big systemic things which
were all about really changing 

693
00:35:22,100 --> 00:35:24,400
the way the society and the 
economy functions and for 

694
00:35:24,700 --> 00:35:27,500
regulating to fit in chelation 
changing building stands. 

695
00:35:27,700 --> 00:35:30,300
And these are very in a way. 
A very traditional kind of 

696
00:35:30,308 --> 00:35:32,400
boring things, right? 
And you actually want much to do

697
00:35:32,400 --> 00:35:33,600
with behavior, I think so 
extend. 

698
00:35:33,600 --> 00:35:36,300
That's right. 
But yes you start off with the 

699
00:35:36,308 --> 00:35:38,600
Bible person thinking I hope 
you've got something out 

700
00:35:38,600 --> 00:35:41,500
extremely you and she's this 
individual level stuff and I 

701
00:35:41,508 --> 00:35:45,200
suppose now I think well 
actually the thing that we can 

702
00:35:45,200 --> 00:35:49,200
do, which of these genuinely 
useful, it is a limited, is, it 

703
00:35:49,300 --> 00:35:51,800
is rather than trying to say 
let's get individuals to change 

704
00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:54,500
their behavior on top of these 
other things, as a primer, our 

705
00:35:54,500 --> 00:35:57,100
primary goal. 
It's more a case of trying to 

706
00:35:57,100 --> 00:35:59,200
design policies and regulations 
in a way. 

707
00:35:59,600 --> 00:36:01,900
They make sense to people and 
are appealing. 

708
00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:05,400
So for example, if one of the 
things that has worked with 

709
00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:08,500
every country tell you is you 
need some kind of contact. 

710
00:36:08,500 --> 00:36:10,900
You need a pretty high, you can 
be pretty high tax. 

711
00:36:11,900 --> 00:36:14,000
Or you might have a cap and 
trade system uses various ways. 

712
00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:16,200
You can do it. 
You said, you need this to make 

713
00:36:16,200 --> 00:36:21,300
to make efficient transition and
that people don't like taxes as 

714
00:36:21,300 --> 00:36:24,700
we saw with the the have an 
upset lot of carbon 

715
00:36:39,200 --> 00:36:41,000
On the other hand it could be 
and has been done. 

716
00:36:41,000 --> 00:36:44,400
So extent in Canada, I believe 
that you take money from your 

717
00:36:44,400 --> 00:36:46,900
carbon tax and you just 
immediately just Distributing 

718
00:36:46,900 --> 00:36:48,300
other way. 
So something to get cheaper 

719
00:36:48,900 --> 00:36:52,000
carbon non carbon intensity, get
cheaper carbon intensive, things

720
00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:55,000
are more expensive but what 
you're not doing is saying we're

721
00:36:55,000 --> 00:36:57,100
going to take money out of the 
economy because we're a few, we 

722
00:36:57,100 --> 00:36:58,800
recovered just like the have 
more money. 

723
00:36:59,400 --> 00:37:03,800
Son, you've just really deep and
difficult questions about what's

724
00:37:03,800 --> 00:37:05,700
going to make that. 
What's going to make a 

725
00:37:05,700 --> 00:37:08,400
particular policy, be 
acceptable, something that you 

726
00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:11,000
can get behind. 
But I think that's actually the 

727
00:37:11,000 --> 00:37:14,500
crucial question because the 
this like the question is these 

728
00:37:14,500 --> 00:37:18,200
big transformative things are 
really destructive to society 

729
00:37:18,600 --> 00:37:21,300
and we have to manage the 
destruction by doing the 

730
00:37:21,700 --> 00:37:25,600
sensible ways as in penalties, 
the engineers so on and business

731
00:37:25,600 --> 00:37:29,000
people, but we also do part of 
that is designed in part of 

732
00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:30,100
that. 
It's behavioral. 

733
00:37:30,200 --> 00:37:32,900
So I think that's a different 
perspective. 

734
00:37:32,900 --> 00:37:36,800
Really own where yeah, I have a 
different Spectrum now on what, 

735
00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:38,700
where the real action is 
available. 

736
00:37:38,700 --> 00:37:42,900
Starting in public policy. 
I have to say that my reaction 

737
00:37:42,900 --> 00:37:46,000
is both one of love. 
And you know, this is so 

738
00:37:46,000 --> 00:37:48,000
refreshing. 
And, you know, this is 

739
00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:51,900
completely enlightened me and 
made me feel differently about 

740
00:37:51,900 --> 00:37:57,400
the kinds of interventions that 
I'm working on and, and sharing 

741
00:37:57,400 --> 00:37:59,800
and so on. 
But, on the other hand, Also 

742
00:38:00,100 --> 00:38:06,000
deeply disturbing and I'm 
incredibly unsatisfying for me 

743
00:38:06,000 --> 00:38:07,600
as someone who is not working 
in. 

744
00:38:07,600 --> 00:38:11,100
Public policy doesn't have any 
desire to work in public policy 

745
00:38:11,500 --> 00:38:16,300
and I and I think my question 
for you is how can apply a 

746
00:38:16,300 --> 00:38:20,500
behavioral scientist like myself
work to make a dent outside of 

747
00:38:20,508 --> 00:38:22,300
public policy. 
If you know you're not, you're 

748
00:38:22,300 --> 00:38:25,300
not working with any government,
you don't have any influence in 

749
00:38:25,300 --> 00:38:27,600
that sense. 
Yeah, I mean, I think we should 

750
00:38:29,800 --> 00:38:36,400
Because of course, the influence
was one of the people on the 

751
00:38:36,400 --> 00:38:38,400
planet. 
So we should shouldn't feel too 

752
00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:42,300
bad that we can't our own work 
can't so single-handedly solve 

753
00:38:42,900 --> 00:38:44,900
major societal problem with 
anybody, but I always had this 

754
00:38:44,900 --> 00:38:47,700
like feeding one should be as I 
really must get to grips with 

755
00:38:47,707 --> 00:38:50,700
the climate change, from this 
can make a real dent and that's 

756
00:38:51,600 --> 00:38:54,400
a lot so you don't have to work 
a teeny tiny dent and a lot of 

757
00:38:54,400 --> 00:38:57,000
other people like ask me when 
they were teenagers and that's 

758
00:38:57,000 --> 00:39:00,000
you but no trivial thing. 
But I think the song True Trisha

759
00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:03,000
function because you have the 
iPhone aspirin thing is it says,

760
00:39:03,000 --> 00:39:05,500
yes, it's the system where the 
really big stuff happens to 

761
00:39:05,500 --> 00:39:08,400
happen. 
So to some extent I think I'll 

762
00:39:08,800 --> 00:39:13,200
what that this is the the 
obviously say I'll try certainly

763
00:39:13,200 --> 00:39:14,700
more directly answer your 
question. 

764
00:39:14,700 --> 00:39:18,300
The obvious one would be saying,
you know, why its arse as as 

765
00:39:18,300 --> 00:39:22,200
lobbyists and voters. 
And campaigners that if we could

766
00:39:22,200 --> 00:39:24,800
actually in governments, try to 
change the Wave It's called 

767
00:39:24,800 --> 00:39:29,100
discourse what runs and make 
things like carbon tax is. 

768
00:39:29,200 --> 00:39:33,300
Or and and more aggressive 
regulation On Target and similar

769
00:39:33,300 --> 00:39:37,000
potentially taxation on your 
harmful foods and clamping down 

770
00:39:37,000 --> 00:39:39,400
on the very initial suspect of 
the gambling industry. 

771
00:39:39,400 --> 00:39:41,600
In all of these thing just 
introducing your more 

772
00:39:41,600 --> 00:39:43,200
aggressive. 
This is just getting more 

773
00:39:43,200 --> 00:39:46,300
enthusiasm for for aggressively 
attacking which voters are very 

774
00:39:46,300 --> 00:39:48,700
damaging. 
And as in, I think it's not a 

775
00:39:48,707 --> 00:39:51,400
secret that there's an enormous 
amount of funding going in the 

776
00:39:51,400 --> 00:39:54,400
opposite direction. 
And we devote, lots of lots of 

777
00:39:54,400 --> 00:39:57,100
companies that do things that 
are have been negative 

778
00:39:57,100 --> 00:39:59,500
externalities been that big 
destructive consequences It has 

779
00:39:59,900 --> 00:40:02,700
also spent quite a lot of time 
trying to defend that they 

780
00:40:02,700 --> 00:40:04,600
continue to do them. 
And then we started tobacco 

781
00:40:04,600 --> 00:40:08,600
industry which is owed to refuse
introducing in them in Europe 

782
00:40:08,600 --> 00:40:11,600
and the us and we know globally.
It's still growing this quite 

783
00:40:11,600 --> 00:40:14,800
astounding really that we can 
have any travel companies 

784
00:40:14,800 --> 00:40:18,400
primarily based in in Western 
countries who are growing in 

785
00:40:18,400 --> 00:40:23,200
their, their actual weights, 
which gives gives gives one of 

786
00:40:23,200 --> 00:40:25,400
the strong sense that the public
good is not really at the 

787
00:40:25,400 --> 00:40:27,700
Forefront of their thinking, but
they are companies often. 

788
00:40:27,700 --> 00:40:30,300
So it's not, it's up to you. 
And what they're doing and given

789
00:40:30,300 --> 00:40:35,100
that given the track record and 
the, the obviously commercial 

790
00:40:35,100 --> 00:40:38,900
imperative, he's not surprised. 
Doesn't make them populated with

791
00:40:38,900 --> 00:40:40,600
the evil. 
Monstrous people, it's just sort

792
00:40:40,600 --> 00:40:42,800
of what you'd expect but there 
we need. 

793
00:40:43,000 --> 00:40:45,500
We need to be cracking down, 
extremely hard, and changing 

794
00:40:45,500 --> 00:40:47,500
public debate. 
In pushing your a public debate 

795
00:40:47,500 --> 00:40:49,200
in the other direction. 
And I think one reason 

796
00:40:49,200 --> 00:40:51,900
Behavioral Science has some 
really deep to say about this is

797
00:40:51,900 --> 00:40:55,200
that the argument from the, from
the, again, anti-regulatory side

798
00:40:55,200 --> 00:40:57,700
or the anti carbon tax, the 
social side is always going to 

799
00:40:57,700 --> 00:41:00,300
be seen to be going to be well. 
Which made her own choices and 

800
00:41:00,300 --> 00:41:02,100
people are able to make these 
choices. 

801
00:41:02,100 --> 00:41:07,100
And it's a pink delete, it's 
always better to lie. 

802
00:41:07,100 --> 00:41:10,300
People said side effects that 
their own Fates so people 

803
00:41:10,300 --> 00:41:12,900
decided what to gamble, a huge 
amounts of money and Destroy 

804
00:41:12,900 --> 00:41:14,700
themselves. 
Then, again, some sense, you 

805
00:41:14,700 --> 00:41:17,100
know, that's their right and 
they must finish, you know what 

806
00:41:17,100 --> 00:41:19,300
they're doing. 
And I think that's that's where 

807
00:41:19,300 --> 00:41:21,500
the people's house is really 
useful because babies often say,

808
00:41:21,500 --> 00:41:24,200
well, people were all struggling
real floundering around the 

809
00:41:24,200 --> 00:41:26,800
world fighting from good for us 
to understand, there are lots of

810
00:41:26,800 --> 00:41:29,400
things. 
Lots of choices that if we Get 

811
00:41:29,400 --> 00:41:32,000
her up, get the round table, 
agree, going back to our virtual

812
00:41:32,000 --> 00:41:34,400
Barney again. 
We'd all say, oh, actually, do 

813
00:41:34,400 --> 00:41:35,900
we want to have the option of 
smoking? 

814
00:41:35,900 --> 00:41:38,100
We wanted to be the case that 
you can Des invented with me or 

815
00:41:38,107 --> 00:41:40,300
disadvantage. 
Most of us would say, yeah, that

816
00:41:40,300 --> 00:42:00,600
be quite good at it. 
Great, that's up the night and 

817
00:42:00,607 --> 00:42:03,500
that's initial table design 
business, is that, is that the 

818
00:42:03,508 --> 00:42:06,100
right way to frame the frame? 
The question to this move is 

819
00:42:06,100 --> 00:42:07,400
popular and effective. 
I don't know. 

820
00:42:07,900 --> 00:42:09,300
Yeah. 
Can I summarize them? 

821
00:42:09,300 --> 00:42:12,600
Because we're here let you move 
on to the one of the second 

822
00:42:12,600 --> 00:42:16,800
second final segment here but 
just a quick summary and see if 

823
00:42:17,100 --> 00:42:21,600
you know I understand fully you 
know you're kind of stand here 

824
00:42:21,600 --> 00:42:25,300
in terms of these things because
I think the problems especially 

825
00:42:25,300 --> 00:42:29,100
with the idea of nudges and 
energy was always that you know?

826
00:42:29,200 --> 00:42:31,700
Okay, look in this policy tool 
box. 

827
00:42:31,700 --> 00:42:34,400
You have regulation. 
You have incentives and so on 

828
00:42:34,700 --> 00:42:37,900
and that's great. 
But you know, actually there's 

829
00:42:37,900 --> 00:42:40,400
this really new exciting thing 
that you can do as a policy 

830
00:42:40,400 --> 00:42:43,700
maker that could potentially 
have the same amount of impact 

831
00:42:43,700 --> 00:42:49,400
or more with small Canada is, 
you know, not just let alone 

832
00:42:49,700 --> 00:42:52,300
cost and by measuring people's 
freedoms? 

833
00:42:52,300 --> 00:42:54,100
Yes. 
Are you kind of? 

834
00:42:54,100 --> 00:42:56,100
Because, because what I'm 
hearing to do that, obviously 

835
00:42:56,100 --> 00:42:59,100
not just still has its space and
you can go to find. 

836
00:42:59,300 --> 00:43:02,000
To use them. 
However, the maybe potentially 

837
00:43:02,000 --> 00:43:05,900
bigger impact using real science
is, it's not so much to say, 

838
00:43:05,900 --> 00:43:07,700
let's, let's not, think about 
regulation. 

839
00:43:07,700 --> 00:43:09,700
Let's not, think about 
incentives that more think about

840
00:43:09,700 --> 00:43:12,100
the heavily informed regulation 
people. 

841
00:43:12,100 --> 00:43:14,400
Important incentives. 
Sightings exactly right. 

842
00:43:14,400 --> 00:43:18,200
Yeah, this is trying is using 
behavioral insights to designer 

843
00:43:18,300 --> 00:43:22,800
phasic tools better, and to make
them to get public support for 

844
00:43:22,800 --> 00:43:24,500
them. 
And I ultimately, I think in a 

845
00:43:24,508 --> 00:43:27,000
democracy, the most it is, we 
should be doing things that 

846
00:43:27,000 --> 00:43:29,800
there is a public support for. 
So, if we can't, Convince the 

847
00:43:29,808 --> 00:43:32,200
population at large, this is a 
good idea, we shouldn't be doing

848
00:43:32,200 --> 00:43:33,500
that and that's simply just the 
case. 

849
00:43:34,200 --> 00:43:36,400
So I don't know, technocratic 
perspective here and let's hope 

850
00:43:36,400 --> 00:43:38,000
that. 
I think I think sometimes the 

851
00:43:38,000 --> 00:43:42,000
nudge perspective comes had that
feels doesn't have to be that 

852
00:43:42,000 --> 00:43:44,500
that we kind of we the 
policymakers know what people 

853
00:43:44,500 --> 00:43:46,200
should we do. 
So we'll try and mostly to do it

854
00:43:46,900 --> 00:43:50,500
is I think there's a kind of 
more transparent story of we 

855
00:43:50,500 --> 00:43:54,100
need to sub, put a case out 
there saying, here's something 

856
00:43:54,100 --> 00:43:56,000
that your behavior. 
You're going to all struggle. 

857
00:43:56,000 --> 00:43:58,200
If you're all going to be 
falling down this Rabbit Hole in

858
00:43:58,200 --> 00:44:00,700
time for the fall down, To let's
take the rabbit hole of right, 

859
00:44:00,700 --> 00:44:03,000
let's fill it in and if we all 
do this, good idea. 

860
00:44:03,000 --> 00:44:04,700
Let's let's do it a bit like the
pack. 

861
00:44:04,700 --> 00:44:07,800
We have actually started to ban 
smoking in public places and all

862
00:44:07,800 --> 00:44:10,500
sorts of me a similar thing. 
And most of us think, you know, 

863
00:44:10,500 --> 00:44:12,700
that was a good idea, then 
whatever we thought originally, 

864
00:44:12,700 --> 00:44:16,000
now are all kind of for it. 
So, I think, yeah, I think 

865
00:44:16,000 --> 00:44:17,100
that's right. 
It's not that, it's not, the 

866
00:44:17,100 --> 00:44:20,100
Magister pointless. 
It is the date the dangerous 

867
00:44:20,100 --> 00:44:22,300
sometimes, and I certain put him
to this. 

868
00:44:22,500 --> 00:44:25,200
I'm thinking if I can't even 
judge, it's really effective. 

869
00:44:25,200 --> 00:44:28,000
I'm just like not smart enough. 
I must try harder. 

870
00:44:28,200 --> 00:44:29,700
Where are you baby? 
No, it's not. 

871
00:44:29,700 --> 00:44:32,500
The Natchez know. 
These are quite limited. 

872
00:44:32,500 --> 00:44:34,800
So, of course, you need to do 
classic regulation. 

873
00:44:35,000 --> 00:44:37,200
And about people, like sunstein 
and failure. 

874
00:44:37,200 --> 00:44:40,800
And how did you get there? 
They're great advocates for, for

875
00:44:40,800 --> 00:44:43,000
the classical part. 
Policy methods are not saying, 

876
00:44:43,000 --> 00:44:44,500
don't use the tool. 
I think it. 

877
00:44:44,700 --> 00:44:48,100
Sometimes happened within 
Behavior design team to have 

878
00:44:48,100 --> 00:44:49,900
entire teams. 
That one feels. 

879
00:44:49,900 --> 00:44:53,000
It would be foolish to say well 
this is pretty Way Beyond the 

880
00:44:53,000 --> 00:44:54,500
nudge. 
We need to do some regulation, 

881
00:44:54,500 --> 00:44:57,300
it feels like that's your 
mission to hope to defeat but 

882
00:44:57,300 --> 00:44:59,000
chatter I think that's right 
limit. 

883
00:44:59,200 --> 00:45:02,900
Recognizing the lot of Pavements
actually pushes in the direction

884
00:45:02,900 --> 00:45:06,300
of classical regulatory tools, I
think that's and so that's, it's

885
00:45:06,300 --> 00:45:08,200
worth worth holding onto the 
yes. 

886
00:45:08,600 --> 00:45:09,700
Yeah. 
Okay. 

887
00:45:10,100 --> 00:45:16,400
So then we're going to ending in
in a fun fashion. 

888
00:45:16,400 --> 00:45:20,800
I would say which we we do this 
isn't with a segment called, 

889
00:45:20,800 --> 00:45:23,700
would it replicates? 
So we're going to do kind of a 

890
00:45:23,707 --> 00:45:26,700
speed round and present you with
some hypothetical research file 

891
00:45:26,700 --> 00:45:27,700
size. 
Oh great. 

892
00:45:27,700 --> 00:45:31,300
Yeah. 
Yes, you telling us, you know, 

893
00:45:31,300 --> 00:45:35,600
if you think these fake findings
are likely to replicate five. 

894
00:45:35,800 --> 00:45:40,800
Okay, Go, Okay. 
Consistent users of the language

895
00:45:40,800 --> 00:45:45,400
learning app, Duolingo develop a
more rigid language structure 

896
00:45:45,400 --> 00:45:48,200
than those who learn a new 
language through cultural 

897
00:45:48,200 --> 00:45:52,300
immersion. 
Wow, I'm actually his father, 

898
00:45:52,300 --> 00:45:55,500
but I know my interest is about 
these things are not only bad 

899
00:45:55,500 --> 00:45:58,100
but they're no, no, I know. 
But every time I do an 

900
00:45:58,100 --> 00:46:06,200
experiment, you are always 
Surprised, so yeah, I'm a bit 

901
00:46:06,200 --> 00:46:12,300
skeptical about, maybe for the 
next 10 countries that enacted 

902
00:46:12,300 --> 00:46:13,800
lockdown earlier in the 
coronavirus. 

903
00:46:13,800 --> 00:46:17,300
Pandemic experienced more 
behavioral, fatigue among 

904
00:46:17,300 --> 00:46:20,800
citizens and ultimately lower 
adherence to quarantine and 

905
00:46:20,800 --> 00:46:22,800
resulted in higher death rates 
from covid. 

906
00:46:22,800 --> 00:46:30,100
Mmm, I think that must be wrong,
but I again, Clear. 

907
00:46:30,200 --> 00:46:33,700
These are pretend findings that 
we made up and we just want to 

908
00:46:33,707 --> 00:46:37,200
get your reaction and maybe you 
know a sentence about yeah I 

909
00:46:37,200 --> 00:46:59,500
think so. 
That's good. 

910
00:46:59,600 --> 00:47:03,900
Okay, I'm going to try to say 
this with a straight face people

911
00:47:03,900 --> 00:47:08,100
who refer to their friends as 
mates, have more sexually, 

912
00:47:08,100 --> 00:47:10,700
complicated relationships than 
those who call their friends 

913
00:47:10,700 --> 00:47:14,100
buddies. 
That's incredibly important to 

914
00:47:14,100 --> 00:47:32,900
me. 
Okay, last one predictions of 

915
00:47:32,908 --> 00:47:35,300
human behavior based on 
Bayesian. 

916
00:47:35,300 --> 00:47:38,800
Rationality models, outperform. 
Those based on logic based 

917
00:47:38,800 --> 00:47:42,500
reasoning. 
Well, well, I'd like to give 

918
00:47:42,500 --> 00:47:44,000
this to you, because that's what
I do. 

919
00:47:45,600 --> 00:47:51,700
But, yeah, I'd be the thing is 
that causes cognitive models are

920
00:47:51,800 --> 00:47:55,400
defended those of how well, like
predicts is depend on so much 

921
00:47:55,400 --> 00:47:57,500
more than that basic pieces of 
piece of Machinery. 

922
00:47:57,500 --> 00:47:59,600
The so so many it's much too. 
Details. 

923
00:47:59,700 --> 00:48:03,900
So I mean I really like the case
that the Beijing of that, but it

924
00:48:03,900 --> 00:48:06,100
logic models and also a 
political networks. 

925
00:48:06,500 --> 00:48:09,900
But some Simeon, laughing case, 
I wouldn't be too sure. 

926
00:48:10,100 --> 00:48:12,800
Wonderful. 
Well done, you survived the 

927
00:48:12,800 --> 00:48:16,500
round here, and and I think 
there's a, there's this are 

928
00:48:16,600 --> 00:48:20,100
again. 
These are fake fake Apple C. 

929
00:48:20,100 --> 00:48:23,800
So anyone can test them in a 
research study, so invite 

930
00:48:23,800 --> 00:48:26,400
listeners to do that. 
Last thing, before we let you 

931
00:48:26,400 --> 00:48:28,900
leave the final question that we
ask. 

932
00:48:29,100 --> 00:48:32,900
Ask every guest is what's your 
most controversial opinion in 

933
00:48:32,900 --> 00:48:36,800
Behavioral Science? 
Ah, let me think for a second on

934
00:48:36,800 --> 00:48:37,800
that drum. 
Sure. 

935
00:48:37,800 --> 00:48:41,500
And come up with something. 
Okay, yeah, I guess I think is a

936
00:48:41,508 --> 00:48:42,800
controversial opinion, I don't 
know. 

937
00:48:43,000 --> 00:48:50,100
So, I tend to think that the 
basic idea, that that people are

938
00:48:50,100 --> 00:48:53,900
driven by beliefs and designers.
So, basically idea that sort of 

939
00:48:53,900 --> 00:48:55,900
something something to folks, 
like little story about the mind

940
00:48:55,900 --> 00:48:57,500
is true. 
I think that's completely wrong,

941
00:48:57,800 --> 00:49:00,400
so I don't think anything it's 
the For which has ever in human 

942
00:49:00,400 --> 00:49:03,200
history. 
No one has ever been driven to 

943
00:49:03,200 --> 00:49:06,700
Annex based on their beliefs 
desires and motives things of 

944
00:49:06,700 --> 00:49:08,700
this kind. 
If I think of those is entirely 

945
00:49:08,700 --> 00:49:11,700
post talking rash met with the 
stock of rationalization, rather

946
00:49:11,700 --> 00:49:15,300
than the causal causal Machinery
of the mind. 

947
00:49:15,500 --> 00:49:18,300
So your folk psychology, all 
that stuff he has. 

948
00:49:18,500 --> 00:49:21,000
That's a fiction. 
It's a really useful fiction but

949
00:49:21,000 --> 00:49:22,500
it's 9 to do with how our minds 
work. 

950
00:49:22,700 --> 00:49:25,100
I guess that's probably very 
controversial and that is a 

951
00:49:25,107 --> 00:49:27,500
great reason to read your book -
let as well. 

952
00:49:27,500 --> 00:49:30,600
Of course, yes. 
Well, this was so much fun. 

953
00:49:30,700 --> 00:49:35,300
Thank you so much for for 
joining us and we hope to stay 

954
00:49:35,300 --> 00:49:37,800
in touch very well. 
Thank you so much Tina, real 

955
00:49:37,800 --> 00:49:39,300
pleasure. 
Great questions of great 

956
00:49:39,300 --> 00:49:40,100
discussion. 
Thank you. 

957
00:49:42,200 --> 00:49:45,100
Time to wrap up another episode 
of the behavioral design 

958
00:49:45,100 --> 00:49:47,600
podcast. 
We hope you enjoyed the show. 

959
00:49:48,000 --> 00:49:52,700
Oh, and I am an AI. 
Yeah, welcome to uncanny valley 

960
00:49:53,300 --> 00:49:55,000
Sam. 
And allene told me this is going

961
00:49:55,000 --> 00:49:58,300
to be an awesome season, so make
sure to subscribe and help 

962
00:49:58,300 --> 00:50:00,800
spread the word. 
Maybe share the podcast with a 

963
00:50:00,800 --> 00:50:04,400
colleague or friend. 
And if you want to show us some 

964
00:50:04,400 --> 00:50:08,000
extra love head over to Habit, 
weekly Come & join, our 

965
00:50:08,000 --> 00:50:11,500
community Pro members, get 
access to a wealth of resources 

966
00:50:11,500 --> 00:50:14,100
in the chance to interact with 
leading practitioners. 

967
00:50:14,300 --> 00:50:17,100
It's a great way to support the 
podcast and deepen. 

968
00:50:17,100 --> 00:50:20,600
Your understanding of Behavioral
design are fantastic. 

969
00:50:20,600 --> 00:50:24,100
Show music is Murgatroyd by the 
wonderful Dave Pizarro and 

970
00:50:24,100 --> 00:50:26,900
thanks to the team at Orange 
wall media for the production of

971
00:50:26,900 --> 00:50:30,000
this episode for questions or 
ideas, Ideas for future 

972
00:50:30,000 --> 00:50:33,800
episodes, email podcast at habit
weekly.com. 

973
00:50:34,100 --> 00:50:37,400
We'd love to hear from you. 
Thanks again for listening. 

974
00:50:37,700 --> 00:50:38,600
See you next time.