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Welcome to the Behavioral Design
Podcast. 

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I'm Samuel Salter and I'm here 
with my Co host, Eileen 

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Holdsworth. 
Hey, Eileen. 

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Hi. 
Hi. 

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How's it going? 
Pretty cold, pretty snowy here 

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in Stockholm. 
Oh man. 

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Well, it is winter time, so I 
guess that's the way the cookie 

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crumbles. 
There you go. 

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As they say, as. 
They say yeah, but very early, 

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early winter here, so trying to 
stay warm. 

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Yeah. 
We we have really interesting 

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final product deep dive this 
week and I think it's a really 

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interesting topic and this is a 
little bit of breaking the 4th 

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wall or something, but I see in 
the notes that you've asked 

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should we talk about our own 
medication use? 

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Well see here's the thing like I
like to start off our our deep 

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dives by asking you some sort of
relevant prompting question. 

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And so it's often about the 
product itself and and the the 

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natural one since our since our 
product for this episode is the 

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pill bottle, it is hey do you 
take any medications. 

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But as I was thinking about 
this, I thought like is that way

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too private and personal of a 
question. 

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And yeah, I think, I think 
probably it is I I don't think 

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I'm comfortable asking you if 
you take any medications. 

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Well maybe we can do it do it 
like historically and said that 

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there's definitely been periods 
where I've I've had to do that. 

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And I guess it's it's 
interesting because you know 

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both of us haven't worked long 
time in applied real science 

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where we so often talk about 
this kind of intention action 

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gap. 
I don't know. 

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It's just really fascinating 
when it regards your, you know, 

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direct well-being and and often 
times some medication you take 

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to save your life to really for 
really important purposes. 

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Not just some form of like on 
the lighter side taking some 

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form of vitamin B during winter 
as maybe I should right now, but

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but really for for our survival 
and still maybe in our personal 

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life, but also you know working 
a lot both of us in kind of 

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digital health and similar kind 
of insurance pharmaceutical kind

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of challenges when it comes to 
supporting people in doing 

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something that they have all the
incentives to do. 

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But exactly. 
That's the big conundrum, right?

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Is like this is so important for
you and yet there's still this 

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gap. 
No, it's interesting. 

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And over the years I've worked 
with so many pharma companies 

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and this is always the number 
one issue that that they're 

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interested in solving, you know,
from a from a behavioral 

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perspective. 
And so it's a really interesting

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one. 
I'm I'm excited to talk about, 

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you know, how the pill bottle 
can can contribute to medication

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adherence. 
And I think maybe the the first 

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thing to say is that maybe it's 
not a a bottle at all, right. 

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So like we've framed this in 
terms of a bottle, but as soon 

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as you get to more than, I would
say more than two medications, 

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you really need a pill box. 
It's like a a bottle is no. 

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Having a, you know, 3 or 4 
bottles on your counter becomes 

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really, really sort of 
burdensome. 

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And there's lots of evidence 
showing that just using a pill 

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box alone has a huge impact on 
increasing medication adherence.

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Yeah. 
And it it seems like, you know, 

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as soon as you start going from 
like taking one medication to 

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two and three and and yeah, we 
don't have to go into healthcare

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systems and complexity. 
And and how they vary across 

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across continents. 
Exactly, but definitely, like 

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you said, it's it becomes more 
of a increased challenge not 

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only to ensure people take it, 
but also avoid, you know, taking

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the wrong things at the same 
time and and so on as well. 

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So yeah, it is a really tricky 
challenge, but a fun one to dive

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into. 
And yeah, where? 

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Where do you think we should 
start? 

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Well, I thought that we could 
sort of organize this 

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conversation using a quick and 
dirty framework that I've stolen

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from the Behavioral Insights 
Team or or stolen and adapted. 

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Let's let's say that and so of 
course probably all of our 

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listeners know about E the 
mnemonic for easy, attractive, 

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social and timely. 
Just a way of thinking through 

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you know what how to improve 
your your your interventions by 

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you know making them these ways 
And you can think of all the 

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different kinds of ways to make 
your product or a program or 

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intervention easy, attractive, 
social and timely. 

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So I've sort of in my own work 
as a way of using this for 

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almost almost kind of a sanity 
check to make sure have I 

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forgotten anything obvious is to
actually replace Timely with 

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what I think is maybe the an 
umbrella category over Timely 

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which is AP for personalized. 
And I think that for me Timely 

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is just one way of being 
personalized and and you know 

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timing is obviously very 
important. 

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But I think maybe the higher 
level category in in my own work

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has been personalization and 
that is has ended up being 

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really important with I would 
say pretty much every product 

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that that I've worked on. 
And especially these days with 

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machine learning and and the the
ability to more easily tailor to

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the individual. 
I think it to not have 

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personalization as a top level 
category seems seems just a bit 

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short sighted. 
So even though ESP with AP does 

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not like, no one wants to say 
that it's not a word. 

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Can we say tailored, tailored or
something like that maybe? 

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Huh. 
That is nice. 

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But having the same word, it's 
like. 

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I feel like there are other 
problems introduced with that. 

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Yeah, but I I think that's a 
great set up for for structuring

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things. 
And yeah, I actually used this, 

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you know, often times for 
communicating. 

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I think it's a useful framework 
when kind of like categorizing 

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and communicating things. 
So yeah, very good. 

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And I like your kind of 
modification as well, so. 

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Adaptation and obviously you 
lose all the nuance with these 

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very broad categories. 
But, but you know, I think 

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especially for, you know, maybe 
people who are just getting 

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started in behavioral science or
people who are not behavioral 

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scientists, it can be a really 
useful sort of guiding 

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framework. 
And for me, yeah, it's also nice

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to be able to categorize this in
order to present it more 

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fluently, right. 
So we can go through the the 

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easy category and then we can go
through the attractive category 

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and so on. 
And it just kind of, you know, 

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chunks chunks these in a way 
that reduces cognitive load. 

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Yes, you see, listeners, we care
about your cognitive. 

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Exactly. 
Look at us. 

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So should we get started with E 
for for easy? 

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Yes, yes. 
So obviously you want to make 

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your medication taking as easy 
as possible and and that 

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includes all the steps along the
way from you know, filling your 

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prescription in the 1st place 
you know or even before that 

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right? 
Like knowing which prescription 

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to get, filling the 
prescription, picking up the 

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prescription. 
If you imagine the whole journey

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map and all the steps along the 
way towards perfect medication 

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adherence, it's not just, you 
know, taking it in the morning 

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and in the evening it's making 
sure that you have all the 

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refills. 
And so if you think about how do

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we make every single step 
seamless and maybe automatic, 

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that's sort of how you get to an
easier medication management 

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experience. 
And so one thing that this 

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reminds me of actually is our 
conversation with Steph Habi. 

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If at at hand of diabetes a few 
episodes ago, right, she was 

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talking about how the automatic 
titration, you know, where 

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possible through the insulin 
pump can really help people. 

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Of course, most medications 
aren't automatically titrated, 

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but you can automate other 
things. 

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For example, so you you can you 
know there are some services 

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that can load your pill box for 
you that can automate your 

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refill process, and even if they
cannot, you know, inject the the

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drug into your body, they can 
make this management easier in 

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other ways. 
And I think that one thing that 

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you see in medication adherence 
solutions is this concept of 

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tracking, medication tracking. 
And I I think there there are 

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some very well-intentioned 
solutions out there. 

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And the process is basically you
log that you've taken your 

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medication through an app or 
maybe you scan the bottle, you 

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know some some way of of 
approving or not improving just 

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you know, stating that you've 
taken your medication. 

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And this to me often feels like 
the the benefits might not 

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outweigh this this cost of the 
the tracking burden, right? 

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There's a lot of friction to 
doing that. 

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And if you don't do it perfectly
the 2nd that you don't do it 

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perfectly, you have this this 
confusion about did I or didn't 

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I? 
And that's another thing that 

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that that maybe you can automate
through the pillbox itself if 

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tracking is important. 
Yeah, definitely a lot of 

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automation possibilities and I'm
thinking as well about because 

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part of this is kind of like 
obviously making it easy from as

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we alluded to, finding ways to 
along the way and make 

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everything happen by itself in 
some ways. 

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But I guess I naturally coming 
from kind of my habit background

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also think about kind of how do 
we make it easy and seamless to 

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kind of integrate it into 
whatever daily routine or life 

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and so on that to have. 
And I think, you know, this is a

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little bit more of like less 
cool and automatic in terms of 

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like or how you say it's less 
cool in that like it's more some

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basic pure science stuff. 
But. 

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It's less tech. 
Forward, yeah, take. 

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Let's take forward. 
Just just really reinforcing 

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some level of implementation 
intentions, I think is sometimes

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kind of overlooked in terms of 
really understanding, OK, in 

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terms of making it easy, how do 
we ensure that the person 

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obviously knows what to do, have
it integrated in a time and 

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place when they will always be 
able to do it without much kind 

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of other interference that could
make it so that they forget 

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about it or get distracted and 
X1C. 

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And how do, how do we create 
this, like really strong, kind 

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of like implementation intention
so that they can like start to 

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basically understand the 
connection of like what they're 

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supposed to do, when they're 
supposed to do it, how and so 

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on. 
And yeah, I think that's all 

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something interesting to kind of
explain early, early phase of 

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introducing this asks you 
obviously also like you say, I 

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think you had a good examples of
how you can still do a lot of 

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things automatically, but yeah, 
what do you think about that 

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side of it as well? 
Yeah, yeah. 

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So you established early on what
is your cue for taking your 

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medication and often it's 
something like you know my when 

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I after I brush my teeth, I will
take my medication and and that 

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it works especially well if you 
have a a twice daily medication 

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regimen, not so much if you have
to take something at lunch but 

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then you know maybe you can pair
with your meals and so on. 

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But yeah, I think some some 
upfront design especially if 

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your if your regimen doesn't 
change overtime, right. 

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It can get complicated if it 
does but actually this does 

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remind me of a of a study that I
ran with Medtronic. 

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This is back in my in my pattern
health days where we we had a 

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almost like it was a recurring 
implementation intentions. 

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So often when you think of 
implementation intentions you 

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think of sort of one time set up
in the beginning that sort of 

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lasts and and is a consistent 
cue. 

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But we the use case that we were
working with was actually a a 

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more inconsistent regimen. 
And so we wanted to be able to 

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to make sure that people could 
on the fly based on changes in 

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their needs for a medication 
could actually adapt to that and

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set an A different 
implementation over time. 

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And so we have this, this whole 
process for you know deciding on

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a basically a daily cadence, not
every day, but when it was 

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necessary to to change the 
regimen, when they would they 

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would take their medication or 
or or step on the scale or or do

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the behavior change that was 
necessary. 

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And so we it was, it was either 
paired with one of the meals or 

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with toothbrushing. 
Those are really the common, you

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know, staples and everyone's 
daily, you know, daily activity 

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diet. 
And we found that that actually 

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doubled their likelihood of of 
doing the thing which was just 

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from a impact perspective 
incredible, right. 

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Like you don't usually get that 
kind of that kind of lift from 

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any sort of intervention. 
So we were, we were very happy 

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with that. 
But yeah, I think that in 

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combination with making it easy 
but having these sorts of cues 

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to trigger, you know it, it 
doesn't work of course if if the

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person doesn't set their 
implementation intention. 

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And so you're you're still 
relying on on users to, you 

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know, be motivated and and do 
the thing in those other ways. 

229
00:13:32,280 --> 00:13:34,080
Yeah. 
So I I usually have this kind of

230
00:13:34,640 --> 00:13:36,800
basically when trying to 
decipher some of these things 

231
00:13:37,360 --> 00:13:41,960
considering obviously you know 
how do we in a perfect scenario 

232
00:13:41,960 --> 00:13:47,000
get things to happen where you 
know we drive up some level of 

233
00:13:47,040 --> 00:13:49,400
ability or motivation. 
So it's it happens But also 

234
00:13:49,400 --> 00:13:53,920
understanding that there will be
risk for whatever first cue or 

235
00:13:53,920 --> 00:13:56,520
1st signal that you're trying to
kind of like build as strong as 

236
00:13:56,520 --> 00:14:00,160
possible that it fails and then 
you can have some like 

237
00:14:00,160 --> 00:14:04,280
mitigation strategies or worst 
case scenario people kind of 

238
00:14:04,280 --> 00:14:07,440
completely fall off and you have
some form of recovery mechanism 

239
00:14:07,480 --> 00:14:11,160
to get them back on track. 
So like for example, like what I

240
00:14:11,160 --> 00:14:15,000
want to come to is basically 
some level of escalation ladder 

241
00:14:15,000 --> 00:14:17,120
of thinking about reminders or 
things. 

242
00:14:17,800 --> 00:14:20,440
You know, there's like some 
things that's like that. 

243
00:14:20,520 --> 00:14:23,960
You know, ideally they would 
kind of set up some form of 

244
00:14:23,960 --> 00:14:26,560
implementation detention. 
It will kind of be reminded 

245
00:14:26,560 --> 00:14:29,840
through the thing you connected 
to, like you say brushing your 

246
00:14:29,840 --> 00:14:34,360
teeth or eating or drinking or 
athletic green, but everything 

247
00:14:34,400 --> 00:14:36,040
people do these days in the 
mornings. 

248
00:14:36,960 --> 00:14:40,960
But but then like if that fails,
you know, having some like level

249
00:14:40,960 --> 00:14:44,600
of escalation to like OK, how 
how can we ensure that happens? 

250
00:14:45,080 --> 00:14:47,320
I feel like you're setting me up
for this, but interestingly, 

251
00:14:47,360 --> 00:14:49,400
that is. 
I've worked with a product that 

252
00:14:49,520 --> 00:14:54,320
that worked in exactly this way 
back in my in my days at Duke we

253
00:14:54,320 --> 00:14:57,320
we worked with a company that 
was called Vitality and they had

254
00:14:57,320 --> 00:15:00,720
this this product glow caps. 
I actually I've recently tried 

255
00:15:00,720 --> 00:15:04,560
to find them and I couldn't. 
So we can think about what that 

256
00:15:04,560 --> 00:15:08,040
means for for their product but 
but I'll tell you how their 

257
00:15:08,080 --> 00:15:10,200
their product worked. 
They basically had this 

258
00:15:10,200 --> 00:15:15,080
Bluetooth enabled smart pill 
bottle where where it's time to 

259
00:15:15,160 --> 00:15:18,720
take your medication and they 
have this night light that once 

260
00:15:18,720 --> 00:15:22,360
it's time to to take it a turn 
it changes color So it it it 

261
00:15:22,360 --> 00:15:25,320
notifies you OK it's time and I 
think you know maybe it it 

262
00:15:25,320 --> 00:15:29,000
starts with the orange and then 
it turns red once you pass your 

263
00:15:29,000 --> 00:15:32,080
time. 
So it's it's notifying you that 

264
00:15:32,080 --> 00:15:35,040
it's time. 
But if if you sort of miss your 

265
00:15:35,040 --> 00:15:39,600
your dosage time, then the 
bottle starts beeping and just 

266
00:15:39,600 --> 00:15:42,160
making this big fuzz. 
And it's a it's actually a 

267
00:15:42,160 --> 00:15:44,520
horrible sound. 
You know, I had to work with 

268
00:15:44,520 --> 00:15:47,360
these in the lab and sometimes 
they would occasionally go off 

269
00:15:47,360 --> 00:15:50,600
and everyone in the lab would 
just be like, Oh my gosh, what 

270
00:15:50,600 --> 00:15:52,760
is happening? 
Is there a fire alarm? 

271
00:15:53,120 --> 00:15:55,360
It was quite aversive. 
They really, they really had a, 

272
00:15:55,360 --> 00:15:57,160
you know, the ladder went pretty
far. 

273
00:15:57,160 --> 00:15:58,360
Exactly. 
Yeah, yeah. 

274
00:15:58,360 --> 00:15:59,720
And. 
But this wasn't even the end of 

275
00:15:59,720 --> 00:16:02,560
the ladder, right? 
If you if you then ignored it, 

276
00:16:02,560 --> 00:16:06,720
at this point they actually had 
the ability to send a message to

277
00:16:06,720 --> 00:16:09,600
a family member or friend, you 
know whoever you designated 

278
00:16:09,640 --> 00:16:12,920
either by text or e-mail as this
additional step of 

279
00:16:12,920 --> 00:16:15,200
accountability. 
And and so this definitely 

280
00:16:15,760 --> 00:16:20,240
definitely fit into that 
category of Tears of Escalation.

281
00:16:20,440 --> 00:16:24,800
But I am curious what happened 
to the Glow Cap and why I can't 

282
00:16:24,800 --> 00:16:32,080
find any really any any product 
that does this exact yeah. 

283
00:16:32,360 --> 00:16:35,320
I I do remember also, I don't 
know exactly when you did this, 

284
00:16:35,320 --> 00:16:38,680
but I remember like working on 
some of these projects or 

285
00:16:38,680 --> 00:16:41,960
similar things or hearing about 
some of those interventions and 

286
00:16:42,360 --> 00:16:44,680
like five, 5-10 years ago like 
the Glow Cap. 

287
00:16:44,680 --> 00:16:47,040
Yeah, this was like 10 years 
ago, yeah. 

288
00:16:47,280 --> 00:16:49,400
OK. 
Yeah, I remember that being kind

289
00:16:49,400 --> 00:16:53,240
of like you heard a lot about 
that, but haven't as well heard 

290
00:16:53,240 --> 00:16:55,720
too much actually. 
One example that is much more 

291
00:16:56,360 --> 00:17:02,000
how to say like simple of sort, 
but I actually is well done is 

292
00:17:02,560 --> 00:17:05,359
with Duolingo. 
They have this now you know you 

293
00:17:05,359 --> 00:17:09,960
can add like a widget to your 
screen and they do this quite 

294
00:17:10,119 --> 00:17:13,560
well where they have like the 
widget updating across the day, 

295
00:17:13,800 --> 00:17:16,960
I think maybe across maybe 15 or
20 iterations. 

296
00:17:17,480 --> 00:17:21,880
And so in the in the beginning 
of the day you see like this 

297
00:17:21,880 --> 00:17:25,520
kind of image of this, you know 
Duolingo, I guess some form of 

298
00:17:25,520 --> 00:17:27,839
bird. 
It's an owl, right? 

299
00:17:28,079 --> 00:17:31,320
It's an owl, yes. 
And it's kind of happy. 

300
00:17:31,320 --> 00:17:34,000
Or it's like abstract something 
like strange things going on 

301
00:17:34,000 --> 00:17:36,600
just to kind of be getting your 
attention. 

302
00:17:37,040 --> 00:17:40,800
And then as you kind of wait, it
starts to become a little bit 

303
00:17:40,800 --> 00:17:42,560
more and more desperate across 
the day. 

304
00:17:42,560 --> 00:17:46,560
If I'm looking right now, it's 
kind of looking at me a little 

305
00:17:46,560 --> 00:17:49,120
bit like skeptically in a way. 
Like are you going to do this or

306
00:17:49,120 --> 00:17:53,760
not about 4:00 PM And then you 
know towards the evening and it 

307
00:17:53,760 --> 00:17:56,720
will become like orange and then
it will be like firestorm or 

308
00:17:56,720 --> 00:18:01,200
like whatever and Hellfire scape
of like do this now or all will 

309
00:18:01,200 --> 00:18:04,000
be lost. 
And that is obviously happening 

310
00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:06,800
only on my home screen when I'm 
happening to scroll through it 

311
00:18:06,800 --> 00:18:11,680
or swipe through it on my phone,
but actually surprisingly well. 

312
00:18:11,720 --> 00:18:15,080
On the home screen of the app, 
or if you just open your phone, 

313
00:18:15,080 --> 00:18:16,360
it's. 
It's there with your. 

314
00:18:16,600 --> 00:18:18,880
Yeah, so it's actually. 
It's a widget that you could add

315
00:18:18,880 --> 00:18:22,360
to your Yeah so it's a widget 
you can add to your your your 

316
00:18:22,360 --> 00:18:25,640
main screen. 
And so it's I have it on one of 

317
00:18:25,640 --> 00:18:29,720
my 2 main screens that I always 
swipe through and it's it's 

318
00:18:29,720 --> 00:18:31,600
actually performed quite well, 
especially when things like 

319
00:18:31,600 --> 00:18:36,360
notifications are hard to to get
people to actually respond to 

320
00:18:36,360 --> 00:18:38,520
these days. 
And I feel like they are one of 

321
00:18:38,520 --> 00:18:41,440
the few who has really been 
creative with kind of a really 

322
00:18:42,040 --> 00:18:46,480
playful but but also well 
designed widget to kind of find 

323
00:18:46,480 --> 00:18:49,240
some space in the home screen. 
Yeah, I feel like the the widget

324
00:18:49,240 --> 00:18:54,400
brings lots of opportunities for
for more subtle reminders that 

325
00:18:54,480 --> 00:18:57,840
that notifications were were not
doing well at all. 

326
00:18:57,840 --> 00:19:02,960
So that's good job on the the 
widget development front. 

327
00:19:03,400 --> 00:19:07,360
But it's funny though I the your
description of the OWL and it's 

328
00:19:07,360 --> 00:19:09,040
been a while since I've used 
Duolingo. 

329
00:19:09,040 --> 00:19:11,840
I lost my strength a couple 
years ago and never went back. 

330
00:19:12,560 --> 00:19:17,840
But but wait but we had you 
know, I'm tempted to say that 

331
00:19:17,840 --> 00:19:21,040
the Duolingo stole this from 
Pattern Health who where we had 

332
00:19:21,040 --> 00:19:25,560
a we had a a smart a pet the 
this, this little virtual 

333
00:19:25,560 --> 00:19:29,640
turtle. 
And the turtle Virgil would also

334
00:19:29,880 --> 00:19:33,480
react to your adherence to your 
your your tasks and your care 

335
00:19:33,480 --> 00:19:36,000
plan. 
So if you would you know forget 

336
00:19:36,000 --> 00:19:38,640
to take your medication for 
example, Virgil would not be 

337
00:19:38,640 --> 00:19:41,920
very happy with you and and the 
turtle went through different a 

338
00:19:41,920 --> 00:19:47,320
series of different states as 
you progressively lost track of 

339
00:19:47,960 --> 00:19:49,920
of your care plan more and more 
overtime. 

340
00:19:50,280 --> 00:19:53,840
Yeah you hear that Duolingo 
people give give credit to do 

341
00:19:54,840 --> 00:19:58,840
they will OG I mean like they 
should come to you and say like 

342
00:19:58,840 --> 00:20:01,320
hey you were you were first. 
Right, it's a. 

343
00:20:01,440 --> 00:20:03,520
It's a owl though, so it was 
totally different from the 

344
00:20:03,520 --> 00:20:05,040
turtle. 
Cool. 

345
00:20:05,040 --> 00:20:08,320
So we have now covered a few 
things to make it easier. 

346
00:20:09,040 --> 00:20:13,840
Have you got any more ideas for 
ways to make it more more easy 

347
00:20:13,960 --> 00:20:18,240
to take your medication? 
So I found one very interesting 

348
00:20:18,240 --> 00:20:21,720
product that that does something
I had not thought of myself and 

349
00:20:21,720 --> 00:20:26,280
and this company, a Sobu 
basically takes a water bottle 

350
00:20:26,560 --> 00:20:31,000
and installs a pill a like a a 
Monday through Sunday pill box 

351
00:20:31,080 --> 00:20:35,440
into the water bottle itself And
so it's just it's one water 

352
00:20:35,440 --> 00:20:38,640
bottle with an attached. 
I know it's hard to imagine. 

353
00:20:38,640 --> 00:20:40,760
You almost have to. 
You almost have to look at the 

354
00:20:41,120 --> 00:20:43,960
the, the image. 
But but think about it right 

355
00:20:43,960 --> 00:20:47,680
this bundling you've got you 
when you take your medications 

356
00:20:47,680 --> 00:20:50,200
off, and if they're pills, they 
you have to take them with 

357
00:20:50,200 --> 00:20:52,240
water. 
Why not have the water 

358
00:20:52,240 --> 00:20:56,760
conveniently there already when 
you're taking your pills? 

359
00:20:56,760 --> 00:21:00,240
And I think that that this kind 
of solution could work really 

360
00:21:00,240 --> 00:21:02,680
well if you're the kind of 
person who carries your water 

361
00:21:02,680 --> 00:21:04,160
bottle with you everywhere, 
right? 

362
00:21:04,360 --> 00:21:07,720
It's not going to get lost. 
It's always handy, of course, if

363
00:21:07,720 --> 00:21:10,320
you're if you're the kind of 
person who doesn't carry their 

364
00:21:10,320 --> 00:21:12,280
water bottle around with them 
everywhere. 

365
00:21:12,480 --> 00:21:15,840
Or you know, I guess maybe if 
you if you left it by your 

366
00:21:15,840 --> 00:21:17,840
toothbrushing station, maybe it 
could work. 

367
00:21:17,840 --> 00:21:20,520
But the risk to me in this 
situation is you lose your water

368
00:21:20,520 --> 00:21:22,000
bottle and you lose all your 
medication. 

369
00:21:22,360 --> 00:21:24,360
That's right. 
Or you leave it in the car and 

370
00:21:24,360 --> 00:21:26,080
and now. 
So I think in general the 

371
00:21:26,080 --> 00:21:29,120
recommendation is like leave 
your meds in one place and know 

372
00:21:29,120 --> 00:21:33,080
that they're always there. 
Yeah, But I actually looking it 

373
00:21:33,080 --> 00:21:37,560
up now and seeing it, I think it
is in a similar vein of trying 

374
00:21:37,560 --> 00:21:41,320
to actually as also maybe with 
kind of the widget idea in some 

375
00:21:41,320 --> 00:21:47,000
ways of trying to place your 
kind of daily medication taking 

376
00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:49,000
into your natural life in some 
ways. 

377
00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:51,720
Whether that's through like 
being reminded of it in places 

378
00:21:51,720 --> 00:21:55,440
you already kind of happened to 
be where that could be your 

379
00:21:55,440 --> 00:21:58,280
phone, that could be your 
kitchen, that could be certain 

380
00:21:58,280 --> 00:22:00,120
things that you're always going 
to be going to. 

381
00:22:00,480 --> 00:22:04,680
But especially with this, like, 
I do admire the ingenuity in 

382
00:22:05,080 --> 00:22:06,720
putting this together. 
It's very creative. 

383
00:22:07,360 --> 00:22:10,080
And and if you think about, so 
you know, we talked about the 

384
00:22:10,080 --> 00:22:12,400
recommendation to take your 
meds. 

385
00:22:12,400 --> 00:22:15,280
Well, when you brush your teeth,
just to pair those behaviors 

386
00:22:15,280 --> 00:22:19,840
together, just imagine that you 
had a combo toothbrush and pill 

387
00:22:19,840 --> 00:22:22,800
bottle. 
You you had your pill box 

388
00:22:22,800 --> 00:22:27,200
attached to your toothbrush like
they're not going anywhere. 

389
00:22:27,200 --> 00:22:30,240
There you go. 
Yeah, no, I I think, yeah. 

390
00:22:30,520 --> 00:22:34,560
If you have any wild ideas of 
how we can combine products into

391
00:22:34,560 --> 00:22:38,360
some form of a toothbrush, 
pillbox or other things, you 

392
00:22:38,360 --> 00:22:41,440
know, e-mail 
us.podcast@haveaweekly.com. 

393
00:22:41,960 --> 00:22:44,520
It'll be awesome to hear what 
ideas come out. 

394
00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:50,280
But yeah, I think we've covered 
things in terms of payroll 

395
00:22:50,840 --> 00:22:56,280
informed ideas and insights on 
how we can make it easier to to 

396
00:22:57,160 --> 00:23:02,880
take the the medication and 
maybe we can segue to making it 

397
00:23:02,880 --> 00:23:05,000
attractive. 
And I guess you're already 

398
00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:07,200
talking about bundling now and I
think a lot of people when they 

399
00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:10,120
hear bundling, if they're in 
kinda call it the behavioral 

400
00:23:10,120 --> 00:23:13,440
science space, they're very 
prone to now think about 

401
00:23:13,440 --> 00:23:17,000
temptation bundling. 
Do you have any thoughts there? 

402
00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:20,680
Because obviously it's also 
lends itself to very popular 

403
00:23:20,720 --> 00:23:24,720
metaphor or story used with 
temptation bundling, which is a 

404
00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:27,280
little bit of. 
A spoonful of sugar helps the 

405
00:23:27,280 --> 00:23:29,280
medicine go down. 
There you go. 

406
00:23:29,360 --> 00:23:32,840
Exactly. 
So yeah, what are your thoughts 

407
00:23:32,840 --> 00:23:36,560
about temptation bundling? 
I mean you could always take 

408
00:23:36,560 --> 00:23:42,440
your medication with a spoonful 
of sugar, for example, I mean. 

409
00:23:43,400 --> 00:23:46,000
Problem solved. 
Yeah, there are other ways to do

410
00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:48,520
that, I suppose. 
I'm not sure that any medical 

411
00:23:48,520 --> 00:23:52,360
professional would recommend 
this, but you know, you you 

412
00:23:52,360 --> 00:23:57,720
could, if you don't drink juice 
normally and you want to give 

413
00:23:57,720 --> 00:24:00,760
yourself a little treat to 
incentivize yourself to take 

414
00:24:00,760 --> 00:24:03,520
your medication, you could. 
You'd always take it with the 

415
00:24:03,520 --> 00:24:05,960
juice instead of with water. 
Yeah. 

416
00:24:06,760 --> 00:24:10,280
It seems like a net positive in 
terms of for many of those 

417
00:24:10,280 --> 00:24:11,760
things. 
If you have like something that 

418
00:24:11,920 --> 00:24:15,320
you know you you can, you can 
especially the whole idea is 

419
00:24:15,320 --> 00:24:19,840
obviously that you have to be 
somewhat disciplined in terms of

420
00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:23,120
like only you know, in that case
drinking juice when you take 

421
00:24:23,120 --> 00:24:25,160
your medicine. 
Exactly. 

422
00:24:25,280 --> 00:24:27,880
Yeah, that's your. 
That's your One Cup of juice for

423
00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:30,400
the day. 
And that's kind of what makes it

424
00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:34,400
also be less likely to be 
probably like a large scale 

425
00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:35,920
successful intervention because 
you cannot. 

426
00:24:36,360 --> 00:24:40,200
It's hard to really engineer 
that type of level of commitment

427
00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:43,720
and motivation among users in 
the same way. 

428
00:24:43,720 --> 00:24:46,600
You can probably like spark some
of those ideas with kind of 

429
00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:49,760
providing inspiration, but it's 
a little bit harder to probably 

430
00:24:49,760 --> 00:24:53,480
implement. 
So what are other ways we can 

431
00:24:53,480 --> 00:24:56,680
make things more attractive? 
And actually before we move in 

432
00:24:56,680 --> 00:24:59,240
there, is there something we 
need to say about attractive 

433
00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:04,160
stuff We we're not talking about
making things more say visually 

434
00:25:04,160 --> 00:25:06,600
appealing, more like a generally
generally. 

435
00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:10,280
Do you think that that visual 
appeal fits into this category 

436
00:25:10,280 --> 00:25:10,880
for sure? 
For sure. 

437
00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:14,320
For sure. 
But you know with medication I 

438
00:25:14,320 --> 00:25:18,200
think the the first thing you 
think about is the taste so so 

439
00:25:18,360 --> 00:25:19,960
making it a more pleasant 
experience. 

440
00:25:19,960 --> 00:25:22,080
There are lots of ways that you 
can make it a more pleasant 

441
00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:26,800
experience and and in line with 
the the spoonful of sugar idea. 

442
00:25:26,800 --> 00:25:29,720
I think there are lots of other 
ways in the formulation of the 

443
00:25:29,720 --> 00:25:33,080
medication itself. 
But if you, if you you know have

444
00:25:33,080 --> 00:25:38,720
a sweet coating on the pill or 
you know I haven't I have a lot 

445
00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:40,520
of experience with gummy 
vitamins. 

446
00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:42,000
Right. 
Gummy vitamins are pleasant to 

447
00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:43,440
take. 
It's like you're eating candy. 

448
00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:45,400
They're. 
Taking over America, it feels 

449
00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:48,560
like I feel like I see so many 
gummy varieties these days. 

450
00:25:48,760 --> 00:25:51,480
Anytime I see like, yeah, that's
funny. 

451
00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:54,160
How many, how many gummy 
varieties would you have at 

452
00:25:54,160 --> 00:25:57,480
home? 
I would just take 11 gummy multi

453
00:25:57,560 --> 00:26:00,000
multivitamin OK? 
OK. 

454
00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:02,200
Or do you mean in terms of 
actual? 

455
00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:05,120
Actual medication? 
Yeah, actual medication. 

456
00:26:05,120 --> 00:26:08,200
Like, I'm just interested. 
Like, is there some, I don't 

457
00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:11,040
know, is is there any too many 
gummies? 

458
00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:14,040
Or is this more gummies better? 
Could we live in a world? 

459
00:26:14,040 --> 00:26:16,080
Where you Yeah, I think you can 
have too many gummies. 

460
00:26:17,320 --> 00:26:21,120
I do believe that. 
I'm just trying to like, 

461
00:26:21,240 --> 00:26:23,960
obviously we have this image of 
like what medicine looks like. 

462
00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:27,720
Yeah, and I was just taking a 
step back and imagining a world 

463
00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:31,000
where all medicine looks like 
gummies, and whether that's a 

464
00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:33,360
good thing. 
And maybe it's not possible for 

465
00:26:33,360 --> 00:26:36,680
obviously some things. 
But yeah, is it a problem if 

466
00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:38,680
some things are gummies or not? 
Some things are not. 

467
00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:40,720
Would you prefer if all things 
are one thing? 

468
00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:43,440
If you're multiple. 
Of this medication, for example.

469
00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:47,960
I mean if if you there are some 
medications that are that have a

470
00:26:48,360 --> 00:26:52,280
bad enough taste that you don't 
want them to be gummies I think 

471
00:26:52,280 --> 00:26:55,640
or the amount of sugar that 
you'd need to compensate for the

472
00:26:55,840 --> 00:26:59,800
for the the unpleasant flavor 
would would make them a you know

473
00:27:00,360 --> 00:27:03,720
too giant to eat. 
And so I do think that there 

474
00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:06,520
there are some things that 
really should just be swallowed 

475
00:27:06,520 --> 00:27:09,920
you know get it down as quickly 
as you can assuming that that 

476
00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:11,800
the the user is capable of doing
that. 

477
00:27:12,040 --> 00:27:14,960
But there are there are other 
ways as well you know if it's in

478
00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:18,040
a in a non gummy situation that 
you can make something more 

479
00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:21,040
pleasant to swallow. 
You know, there are. 

480
00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:24,160
There are pills that are just 
far too big and are much harder 

481
00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:26,640
to swallow. 
And two pills might be better 

482
00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:30,440
than one giant horse pill. 
But then there's also the 

483
00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:33,640
opposite problem I've had, I've 
had medications before that are 

484
00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:37,160
so tiny and light that it 
actually is hard to get it down 

485
00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:39,480
your throat. 
You don't, you don't want it to 

486
00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:42,280
be so light that it's hard to 
swallow and you don't want it to

487
00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:43,560
be so big that it's hard to 
swallow. 

488
00:27:43,560 --> 00:27:46,800
You have to, you know, get into 
this, this, this nice sort of 

489
00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:51,080
Goldilocks balance of getting 
the right like, I don't know, 

490
00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:56,320
like ingestion ratio. 
Yeah, I guess I should have done

491
00:27:56,320 --> 00:27:59,240
a little more research on. 
So Ray Kurzweil and Brian 

492
00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:03,840
Johnson and the folks of like 
taking 60 pills every morning 

493
00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:06,280
and every evening, like there's 
some people that are like really

494
00:28:06,280 --> 00:28:11,360
longevity focused that live by 
taking enormous amount of pills 

495
00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:12,680
and I actually haven't looked 
into. 

496
00:28:12,680 --> 00:28:17,440
I would be careful about 
attributing causation in that 

497
00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:19,880
scenario. 
What are you saying? 

498
00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:23,840
They're that they're living a 
long time because of these, all 

499
00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:26,720
of the pills they're taking. 
It seems very unlikely. 

500
00:28:26,760 --> 00:28:30,960
I don't want to get into the to 
the whole longevity 

501
00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:32,400
optimization. 
Yeah. 

502
00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:37,680
I'm more it's just fascinating 
for me to see like someone is 

503
00:28:37,680 --> 00:28:40,120
like yeah you know every day I 
take 100 pills in the morning 

504
00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:44,920
like that seems like just a very
unpleasant and difficult thing 

505
00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:46,440
to do. 
OK. 

506
00:28:46,440 --> 00:28:50,880
So we talked about in terms of 
thinking maybe specifically in 

507
00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:54,680
terms of the medication pills 
for example or you know that 

508
00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:58,240
kind of stuff, how you can make 
that maybe more pleasant or more

509
00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:01,040
attractive as we're focusing on.
But yeah, do you have any 

510
00:29:01,040 --> 00:29:03,920
thoughts about packaging and the
sign beyond that? 

511
00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:08,080
Oh yeah. 
So, so we know that there's lots

512
00:29:08,080 --> 00:29:11,840
of emphasis placed on marketing 
and and you know the the 

513
00:29:11,840 --> 00:29:13,440
formulation of medication 
itself. 

514
00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:18,560
But I think that the that 
thinking about clever ways to 

515
00:29:18,600 --> 00:29:22,560
innovate on the the packaging 
and the the bottle itself the 

516
00:29:22,560 --> 00:29:25,680
casing, I think there's a 
there's a real opportunity there

517
00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:30,160
this this really sort of often 
goes totally untouched, right. 

518
00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:33,600
You you don't see much attention
being paid to the pill bottle. 

519
00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:36,600
If you think about the the the 
pill bottle that your medication

520
00:29:36,600 --> 00:29:40,640
comes comes in as a default. 
It's often very unattractive 

521
00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:43,480
right? 
Like it's almost the epitome of 

522
00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:46,960
an unattractive thing sort of 
hard to read hard to find the 

523
00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:50,240
relevant information. 
So, so lots of room for 

524
00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:53,720
improvement even just in terms 
of simplifying and and making it

525
00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:57,680
easier to understand, right? 
But then there are there are 

526
00:29:57,680 --> 00:30:01,120
also opportunities on top of 
that to to, you know, make it, 

527
00:30:01,480 --> 00:30:04,680
make it even more attractive 
beyond the basics. 

528
00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:08,360
It could even be something fun. 
And if if you think about like 

529
00:30:08,360 --> 00:30:12,120
if you were designing a pill 
bottle for children, maybe it it

530
00:30:12,120 --> 00:30:14,800
looks like something like a Pez 
dispenser or? 

531
00:30:15,320 --> 00:30:18,000
Oh, you know, there's I love, I 
love Pez. 

532
00:30:18,040 --> 00:30:19,400
When I was a kid, that was 
funny. 

533
00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:22,960
But not anymore. 
Well, I haven't had in a long 

534
00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:24,520
time. 
I'm sure I would like it as much

535
00:30:24,520 --> 00:30:29,640
today, but I I do remember just 
that, like completely, you know,

536
00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:32,600
the the pest things are not that
exciting, but because they were 

537
00:30:32,600 --> 00:30:35,720
delivered in the way they were, 
it was like such a rewarding, 

538
00:30:35,760 --> 00:30:38,840
rewarding feeling. 
It's just the delivery itself 

539
00:30:38,840 --> 00:30:41,800
that makes it it exciting. 
So imagine you were taking your 

540
00:30:42,080 --> 00:30:44,640
medication out of a out of a 
Darth Vader. 

541
00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:48,440
You know, like a pill bottle 
like that would be so cool. 

542
00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:53,880
Yeah, I can't imagine it. 
I'm not a big Star Wars fan 

543
00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:57,720
originally, but I I can imagine 
this this is working very well. 

544
00:30:58,120 --> 00:31:04,000
And yeah, I I remember Arthy 
mentioned a little bit about 

545
00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:07,000
just kind of making the 
packaging maybe more sleek, for 

546
00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:10,880
example, so that it's a little 
bit more like maybe removing 

547
00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:13,120
some stigma. 
But like you might feel, you 

548
00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:16,640
know, a little bit bad taking up
this pill bottle that looks like

549
00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:19,040
it could be anything inside and 
you don't want to signal that 

550
00:31:19,040 --> 00:31:21,600
you're sick or that you're not 
feeling well, for example, once 

551
00:31:21,600 --> 00:31:24,280
it becomes this kind of, like 
embarrassing thing to bring with

552
00:31:24,280 --> 00:31:27,200
you. 
So just yeah, finding ways to 

553
00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:30,480
make it more subtle could also 
work quite well. 

554
00:31:30,480 --> 00:31:34,320
Sometimes, even though 
subtleness might work against, 

555
00:31:35,800 --> 00:31:37,440
you know, something being 
salient, that's something you 

556
00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:40,640
remember to do any more. 
Any more things here? 

557
00:31:40,760 --> 00:31:43,480
Any more packaging? 
Yeah. 

558
00:31:43,480 --> 00:31:47,400
I mean you know beyond if you 
can think about other ways to 

559
00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:51,520
make it fun if there were a game
associated with your with your 

560
00:31:51,520 --> 00:31:54,720
medication taking right. 
So it it's not just that you've 

561
00:31:54,720 --> 00:31:58,120
done it and you get to check it 
off the list but you've done it 

562
00:31:58,120 --> 00:32:01,880
and you know and and there's 
there's something there's a fun 

563
00:32:01,880 --> 00:32:06,840
challenge or it plays a song 
that that you have to guess you 

564
00:32:06,840 --> 00:32:10,080
know like what is this song and 
if you if you if you guess the 

565
00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:14,120
song correctly then you then you
you can you start accumulating 

566
00:32:14,120 --> 00:32:18,600
points and you know for the for 
the more are more gamification 

567
00:32:18,600 --> 00:32:23,040
inclined users this could be a a
really fun activity and they 

568
00:32:23,040 --> 00:32:25,920
want to rack up rack up their 
medication points. 

569
00:32:26,320 --> 00:32:29,800
Yeah, yeah. 
I think it it's it's something 

570
00:32:29,800 --> 00:32:34,360
where I feel a little bit like 
the piano staircase people might

571
00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:37,240
know about that example in terms
of, you know, making more likely

572
00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:38,160
to. 
Hate the piano staircase. 

573
00:32:38,920 --> 00:32:41,960
I do. 
I I I for some reason it's like 

574
00:32:42,200 --> 00:32:46,800
the thing I have a strong 
opinion about, just because it's

575
00:32:46,800 --> 00:32:49,360
like it's a cool fun video to 
showcase. 

576
00:32:49,360 --> 00:32:52,840
But then who wants to every time
they walk down the subway have 

577
00:32:52,840 --> 00:32:56,360
this like really loud sounds and
especially a lot of people 

578
00:32:56,360 --> 00:32:58,440
running down those stairs, it's 
going to be like not the most 

579
00:32:58,440 --> 00:33:00,280
pretty sound as well. 
So I feel like. 

580
00:33:01,120 --> 00:33:08,760
I'll tell you who my toddler 
would love that and he would 

581
00:33:08,760 --> 00:33:11,600
never get where he's trying to 
go because he would just stay on

582
00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:15,200
the piano stairs for hours and 
hours and it would never get 

583
00:33:15,240 --> 00:33:15,480
old. 
But. 

584
00:33:17,640 --> 00:33:20,760
Yeah, it's something that I'm, 
I'm, I'm more positive towards 

585
00:33:20,760 --> 00:33:21,880
IDEA. 
I think it's something that you 

586
00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:23,800
shared ahead of this in some 
way. 

587
00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:26,720
I think you meant something 
about like Jacobs or Louis 

588
00:33:26,720 --> 00:33:31,560
Vuitton something. 
Yeah, so so I actually I I had 

589
00:33:31,560 --> 00:33:35,960
this idea that that maybe you 
could you know go go the fashion

590
00:33:35,960 --> 00:33:40,880
forward route right for those 
who who who care about their 

591
00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:45,880
appearance And actually I so I 
googled designer pill bottle to 

592
00:33:45,880 --> 00:33:47,840
see does this exist. 
Does anyone make this? 

593
00:33:48,320 --> 00:33:51,000
I did find a Louis Vuitton 
monogrammed bottle. 

594
00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:55,520
I also found a a pretty pill box
recommended by Wirecut. 

595
00:33:56,240 --> 00:34:00,200
It's it's kind of like this. 
It's very sleek and discreet, 

596
00:34:00,200 --> 00:34:02,040
kind of looks like an eyeglasses
case. 

597
00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:04,400
It looks like just something you
would throw into your purse. 

598
00:34:05,040 --> 00:34:09,719
And yeah, it's like I I think 
this that that falls more into 

599
00:34:09,719 --> 00:34:13,880
the discreet category that Arthy
was talking about because you 

600
00:34:13,880 --> 00:34:17,679
wouldn't know that it's a pill 
bottle unless you or a pill box 

601
00:34:17,679 --> 00:34:20,719
actually, unless you slid it 
open and you saw the trays. 

602
00:34:21,360 --> 00:34:24,800
Well, yeah, I think, you know, 
for those who want to show off 

603
00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:28,760
their medications rather than 
hide them, there are all sorts 

604
00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:32,760
of of of fashionable approaches 
that you can that you could use 

605
00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:34,880
to make your pill bottle more 
attractive. 

606
00:34:35,239 --> 00:34:38,159
Yeah, no, I I like that. 
And I'm now use thinking about 

607
00:34:38,159 --> 00:34:40,840
various ways to kind of use 
signals to people's various 

608
00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:45,760
types of also like identity kind
of things whether that's being 

609
00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:49,719
fashionable or you know maybe 
leading into some people that 

610
00:34:49,719 --> 00:34:52,360
like are really wanting to 
optimize for their health in 

611
00:34:52,360 --> 00:34:55,360
various ways. 
And you know if they are 

612
00:34:55,360 --> 00:34:58,640
happened to be taking something 
like a leather greens. 

613
00:34:58,640 --> 00:35:02,080
I think what they've done well 
with those kind of supplements, 

614
00:35:02,080 --> 00:35:05,760
which is still like unclear how 
well they actually work. 

615
00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:09,000
But they sell the idea of of 
doing something positive for 

616
00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:13,520
yourself taking like something 
every day that that's kind of a 

617
00:35:13,520 --> 00:35:17,120
vote for your healthier self. 
And I don't know if if there's 

618
00:35:17,120 --> 00:35:21,040
some ways to kind of better 
align, you know, the idea 

619
00:35:21,040 --> 00:35:23,920
because it's kind of like it's 
it's kind of framing problem in 

620
00:35:23,920 --> 00:35:26,280
some ways where obviously the 
medication you take because 

621
00:35:26,280 --> 00:35:30,240
you're sick or have high risk of
getting sicker or becoming sick,

622
00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:33,600
but you're taking it to become 
healthier, as I'm most thinking.

623
00:35:33,640 --> 00:35:36,360
Like there's just some ways to 
frame it in a more positive, 

624
00:35:36,840 --> 00:35:40,000
more kind of empowering. 
Like what I'm doing for my 

625
00:35:40,040 --> 00:35:43,040
health, not like what I need 
because my health is is, you 

626
00:35:43,040 --> 00:35:45,040
know, in in jeopardy. 
Yeah. 

627
00:35:45,880 --> 00:35:47,800
All right. 
I think we have totally 

628
00:35:47,800 --> 00:35:49,880
exhausted the category of 
attractive. 

629
00:35:51,520 --> 00:35:54,720
But to our listeners, if you 
have any other ideas of of how 

630
00:35:54,720 --> 00:35:57,680
to make a a pill box or a pill 
bottle more attractive with 

631
00:35:57,680 --> 00:36:00,840
behavioral design, please shoot 
us an e-mail and let us know. 

632
00:36:01,480 --> 00:36:04,720
So, but what do you think about 
our our next category is social.

633
00:36:04,960 --> 00:36:07,040
This was a little bit 
controversial. 

634
00:36:07,280 --> 00:36:10,480
If we think back to our our 
beginning discussion about 

635
00:36:10,560 --> 00:36:14,720
asking people about about their 
medications or or their health 

636
00:36:14,760 --> 00:36:19,360
issues or their, you know that 
the whole category of of health 

637
00:36:19,360 --> 00:36:22,600
itself, especially you know with
the more medical side of health,

638
00:36:22,600 --> 00:36:26,800
not the more Wellness side, you 
know it's a little bit tricky 

639
00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:29,320
territory. 
What do you think about making 

640
00:36:29,360 --> 00:36:32,880
adding a social element to to 
medication management? 

641
00:36:33,200 --> 00:36:37,800
Yeah, well, it definitely feels 
like this kind of this thing 

642
00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:42,560
that could either become like a 
huge ally or or increased chance

643
00:36:42,560 --> 00:36:44,600
of you taking medication or 
maybe potentially something that

644
00:36:44,600 --> 00:36:48,200
risks reducing it being kind of 
the people around the person. 

645
00:36:48,640 --> 00:36:52,680
So how can they kind of in some 
ways create allies around them 

646
00:36:52,680 --> 00:36:55,880
or supporters or people that can
kind of like help them? 

647
00:36:56,440 --> 00:36:59,960
And it's a little bit tricky 
because things like, let's say 

648
00:36:59,960 --> 00:37:03,000
crucial conversations or stuff 
like this, when it comes to 

649
00:37:03,280 --> 00:37:08,440
supporting people in being 
better at kind of talking to 

650
00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:11,600
their loved ones. 
I think it often comes up when 

651
00:37:11,600 --> 00:37:14,360
it comes to something like let's
say someone needs to change 

652
00:37:14,360 --> 00:37:18,040
their diets, but then, you know 
they have a partner or you know 

653
00:37:18,040 --> 00:37:21,080
kids and various things. 
And it's hard to renegotiate 

654
00:37:21,200 --> 00:37:25,800
what's brought home and it's 
hard to figure some of those 

655
00:37:25,800 --> 00:37:27,400
things out. 
And it can be useful to get some

656
00:37:27,400 --> 00:37:31,840
advice and support on how to 
talk and how to maybe, you know 

657
00:37:31,920 --> 00:37:33,800
get people on board with what 
you're trying to do. 

658
00:37:33,800 --> 00:37:36,800
But at the same time it's 
something we naturally have a 

659
00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:39,760
lot of anxiety around. 
And and and it's it's tricky to 

660
00:37:40,040 --> 00:37:42,960
to open up and talk about things
like that even with you maybe 

661
00:37:42,960 --> 00:37:45,960
sometimes your partner, but 
especially if it goes to kind of

662
00:37:46,440 --> 00:37:50,000
beyond the near family and you 
have to talk to your, let's say 

663
00:37:50,800 --> 00:37:52,960
anything like friends, 
colleagues that can become like 

664
00:37:52,960 --> 00:37:56,360
really exciting to you saying to
kind of admit some of these 

665
00:37:56,360 --> 00:37:59,160
things or you know talk about 
some of those stuff. 

666
00:37:59,160 --> 00:38:01,880
So yeah, what are your thoughts 
about that? 

667
00:38:02,080 --> 00:38:06,400
Well, I think the the social 
category as a whole is a really 

668
00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:10,360
good example actually for how 
essential personalization is. 

669
00:38:10,440 --> 00:38:14,080
And really it's because the 
some, some people are really 

670
00:38:14,080 --> 00:38:18,480
drawn to having accountability 
buddies and bringing in their 

671
00:38:18,480 --> 00:38:23,000
family to their health decisions
and and and and you know having 

672
00:38:23,000 --> 00:38:25,960
those conversations and then 
other people really shy away 

673
00:38:25,960 --> 00:38:29,280
from them. 
And it just I think so much 

674
00:38:29,280 --> 00:38:32,560
speaks to this need for not not 
having a one size fit all 

675
00:38:32,560 --> 00:38:37,680
approach but personalizing to 
the individual's preferences and

676
00:38:37,680 --> 00:38:41,160
needs and so on and just 
understanding that that a social

677
00:38:41,160 --> 00:38:43,480
solution is not going to be for 
everyone. 

678
00:38:43,480 --> 00:38:46,680
It's going to be really helpful 
for some people, but but 

679
00:38:46,680 --> 00:38:48,640
definitely not for others. 
Yeah. 

680
00:38:48,640 --> 00:38:52,320
And do you have any bet in terms
of obviously, again, we can 

681
00:38:52,320 --> 00:38:54,240
think about this more 
personalized point of view, but 

682
00:38:54,720 --> 00:38:58,440
you know this idea that you can 
either leverage some form of 

683
00:38:58,440 --> 00:39:03,240
support that is some strangers, 
but they're happening to be 

684
00:39:03,360 --> 00:39:05,000
going through something similar 
like you are. 

685
00:39:05,000 --> 00:39:09,080
So you know, it's something that
you could, you know, come across

686
00:39:09,080 --> 00:39:12,120
at some form of like let's say 
as an example, I know Amada 

687
00:39:12,120 --> 00:39:15,320
Health does this quite a lot 
where they have programs that 

688
00:39:15,320 --> 00:39:18,880
kind of bundles a bunch of 
people that are trying to issue 

689
00:39:18,880 --> 00:39:22,360
something similar. 
They can have coached by someone

690
00:39:22,360 --> 00:39:24,680
who has gone through that 
program before as a form of 

691
00:39:24,760 --> 00:39:28,320
added support or coach, and then
they're going through XML steps 

692
00:39:28,320 --> 00:39:31,040
together. 
But they don't know each other 

693
00:39:31,040 --> 00:39:32,640
outside of this context. 
So they don't have to worry 

694
00:39:32,640 --> 00:39:35,880
about kind of like will people 
talk about this stuff at work, 

695
00:39:36,200 --> 00:39:39,800
will people, you know, Expo and 
C So you don't have to be kind 

696
00:39:39,800 --> 00:39:44,640
of worrying about that as much. 
But at the same time, you can 

697
00:39:44,640 --> 00:39:46,840
probably argue that like people 
that are actually in their 

698
00:39:46,840 --> 00:39:51,520
social circuits will be more 
impactful in terms of helping 

699
00:39:51,520 --> 00:39:55,040
ensure that they stick to 
whatever they need to follow on 

700
00:39:55,040 --> 00:39:58,560
with them and really could 
potentially be even more able to

701
00:39:58,560 --> 00:40:00,360
help them. 
How do you think about those two

702
00:40:00,480 --> 00:40:03,200
two type of social? 
Well, I feel like you're setting

703
00:40:03,200 --> 00:40:06,280
me up again because I've 
actually run this study with a a

704
00:40:06,280 --> 00:40:08,960
very large trial with Novartis 
back when I was at Duke. 

705
00:40:08,960 --> 00:40:11,520
Unfortunately, I don't know the 
results because I left before it

706
00:40:11,520 --> 00:40:13,520
was finished. 
I haven't seen the seen it 

707
00:40:13,520 --> 00:40:16,040
published, but it was, it was a 
very, it was a longitudinal 

708
00:40:16,040 --> 00:40:17,960
study. 
So it it it went on for many 

709
00:40:17,960 --> 00:40:21,800
years, but we actually randomly 
assigned patients, heart failure

710
00:40:21,800 --> 00:40:24,120
patients to one of these 
conditions. 

711
00:40:24,120 --> 00:40:28,400
So they they each had a each 
condition had a care circle and 

712
00:40:28,400 --> 00:40:32,640
some of them one of the 
conditions had was asked to 

713
00:40:32,640 --> 00:40:35,960
invite their you know their 
whoever they wanted right their 

714
00:40:35,960 --> 00:40:39,360
their close family members up to
a certain number of people. 

715
00:40:39,560 --> 00:40:44,000
So they created their own, their
own care circle of people that 

716
00:40:44,000 --> 00:40:47,920
they wanted to to stay updated 
in their their health plan. 

717
00:40:48,240 --> 00:40:51,960
And then we had another group of
exactly what you described it. 

718
00:40:52,040 --> 00:40:56,200
It wasn't so much that the that 
they're that they were paired 

719
00:40:56,200 --> 00:41:01,320
with people who had already been
through their situation and 

720
00:41:01,320 --> 00:41:03,920
we're now experts on that. 
But it was other people who are 

721
00:41:03,920 --> 00:41:05,680
going through the same thing at 
the same time. 

722
00:41:05,680 --> 00:41:09,680
So other other heart failure 
patients were also in the study 

723
00:41:10,320 --> 00:41:14,720
and the idea was like who knows 
what's you know the only way to 

724
00:41:14,760 --> 00:41:18,800
find this answer is to test it. 
So I I would still love to know 

725
00:41:18,800 --> 00:41:22,000
which is which is the more 
impactful route. 

726
00:41:22,320 --> 00:41:28,120
I do suspect that the close 
family members are going to have

727
00:41:28,120 --> 00:41:31,080
a stronger influence. 
I think it's it's much easier to

728
00:41:31,080 --> 00:41:35,640
ignore strangers than it is is 
your family members. 

729
00:41:36,040 --> 00:41:38,440
Of course it's also going to 
depend on you know, how invested

730
00:41:38,440 --> 00:41:40,560
are your family members in 
checking in on you. 

731
00:41:40,680 --> 00:41:44,120
Are they paying attention or is 
it just, you know, the 

732
00:41:44,120 --> 00:41:47,480
information is flowing in and 
and you know nobody's, nobody 

733
00:41:47,480 --> 00:41:50,760
cares about it. 
So yeah, lots of it depends in 

734
00:41:50,760 --> 00:41:53,640
this answer and I think that's, 
you know, that's generally true 

735
00:41:53,640 --> 00:41:57,040
for our health and and generally
true for digital tools. 

736
00:41:57,480 --> 00:42:01,880
And yeah, I wish. 
I wish I had all the answers. 

737
00:42:02,000 --> 00:42:05,200
Yeah, I I would love to find out
those answers as well. 

738
00:42:05,200 --> 00:42:07,720
It's it's interesting as well 
because I would like an 

739
00:42:07,720 --> 00:42:09,680
extension of that type of 
experiment. 

740
00:42:10,120 --> 00:42:13,160
What I would be really curious 
to understand and and see how it

741
00:42:13,160 --> 00:42:16,360
plays out is the study of 
abstinence violation effect. 

742
00:42:16,360 --> 00:42:19,120
When it comes to usually that's 
looked at when it comes to like 

743
00:42:19,680 --> 00:42:25,280
something like drinking related 
maybe addiction or some form of 

744
00:42:25,280 --> 00:42:27,840
thing where someone is trying to
abstain from from doing some 

745
00:42:27,840 --> 00:42:32,120
form of thing and they're having
some social support in trying to

746
00:42:32,120 --> 00:42:34,680
abstain from this but then they 
failed to abstain. 

747
00:42:34,680 --> 00:42:40,000
Like they they have they go to 
you know alcohol anonymous and 

748
00:42:40,000 --> 00:42:42,960
they have some sponsor but then 
they end up drinking. 

749
00:42:43,360 --> 00:42:47,760
Will they tell that person or 
will they kind of feel really 

750
00:42:47,760 --> 00:42:50,560
embarrassed because they've kind
of let someone down and then 

751
00:42:50,560 --> 00:42:53,760
kind of spiraling the wrong way 
And and that's sadly something 

752
00:42:53,760 --> 00:42:55,360
that can obviously happen in 
many cases. 

753
00:42:55,360 --> 00:42:58,040
And and sometimes you know it's 
been the case with some 

754
00:42:58,040 --> 00:43:00,680
interventions that I've been 
doing where it's it's maybe a 

755
00:43:00,680 --> 00:43:03,240
little bit less steaks in terms 
of maybe it has to do with their

756
00:43:03,440 --> 00:43:05,800
eating behavior. 
But it still hurts when you're 

757
00:43:05,800 --> 00:43:09,320
supposed to you know, less. 
An app tells you that today it's

758
00:43:09,320 --> 00:43:11,800
it's good if you have this salad
and then you end up having a 

759
00:43:11,800 --> 00:43:14,560
pizza. 
Going into that app, admitting 

760
00:43:14,560 --> 00:43:17,400
to that that actually I had a 
pizza instead, and seeing the 

761
00:43:17,400 --> 00:43:18,880
calories just go through the 
roof. 

762
00:43:18,880 --> 00:43:21,080
Or whatever it's. 
Painful to admit. 

763
00:43:21,080 --> 00:43:25,120
It's painful to admit. 
It's true, I But people are much

764
00:43:25,120 --> 00:43:29,880
more honest with their sort of 
anonymous devices than they are 

765
00:43:29,880 --> 00:43:31,320
with people. 
Right? 

766
00:43:31,320 --> 00:43:33,720
So. 
So I think that that you you 

767
00:43:33,720 --> 00:43:38,960
would see less a less a lower 
likelihood of someone lying to 

768
00:43:38,960 --> 00:43:41,800
their nutrition app than they 
would to a friend. 

769
00:43:41,960 --> 00:43:44,480
Yeah, but that's where I wanted 
to test experiment as well where

770
00:43:44,680 --> 00:43:48,720
you know if you have 3 scenarios
like either they they they have 

771
00:43:48,720 --> 00:43:51,440
committed to some form of like 
app that's bring them or they 

772
00:43:51,440 --> 00:43:55,520
have this this circle of fellow 
patients or fellow people that 

773
00:43:55,520 --> 00:43:57,560
are going through similar 
journey but are more kind of 

774
00:43:57,640 --> 00:44:01,280
further from the social circle 
or they have that family of 

775
00:44:01,280 --> 00:44:04,400
nominated or like group of 
nominated people, which one 

776
00:44:04,400 --> 00:44:07,520
would be more likely to kind of 
suffer the abstinence violation 

777
00:44:07,520 --> 00:44:10,000
effect from. 
So that's just a caveat to that 

778
00:44:10,000 --> 00:44:12,200
experiment. 
If if anyone ever runs it again,

779
00:44:12,560 --> 00:44:13,640
let let me know. 
No. 

780
00:44:14,640 --> 00:44:16,320
Awesome. 
Do we have anything more to say 

781
00:44:16,320 --> 00:44:19,920
about about social before we 
move on to personalization? 

782
00:44:20,800 --> 00:44:23,760
No, I think we should, we should
finish off and talk about 

783
00:44:23,760 --> 00:44:27,880
personalized and we've kind of 
planted some seeds here. 

784
00:44:27,880 --> 00:44:30,160
We'll talk about some of these 
things along the way in terms of

785
00:44:30,160 --> 00:44:32,600
why it's important, how it could
be done. 

786
00:44:32,920 --> 00:44:37,640
But yeah, given that you fought 
to have this as its own thing, 

787
00:44:37,640 --> 00:44:42,800
like tell me more, replace, 
replace, replace. 

788
00:44:42,920 --> 00:44:46,200
Timely, sorry, behavioral 
insights. 

789
00:44:46,280 --> 00:44:48,960
I feel like I need to, like, 
send an apology. 

790
00:44:49,680 --> 00:44:51,600
I'm sorry I've butchered your 
framework. 

791
00:44:52,000 --> 00:44:53,800
Yeah. 
I mean, no, you're right. 

792
00:44:53,800 --> 00:44:57,120
I there are threads of 
personalization through every 

793
00:44:57,120 --> 00:45:00,760
one of the other categories and 
in many ways, you know, 

794
00:45:00,760 --> 00:45:04,400
everything must be personalized.
But yeah, I I think like one 

795
00:45:04,400 --> 00:45:08,080
major area. 
It just goes back to the number 

796
00:45:08,080 --> 00:45:11,080
of pills, the complexity of the 
medication regimen. 

797
00:45:11,320 --> 00:45:13,560
You know, what is your schedule 
like? 

798
00:45:13,560 --> 00:45:16,800
Can you use a pill bottle or do 
you need a pill box? 

799
00:45:16,800 --> 00:45:19,880
Do you need, you know, how much 
organization do you actually 

800
00:45:19,880 --> 00:45:23,360
need in terms of compartments? 
If you have a a ton of pills on 

801
00:45:23,360 --> 00:45:25,520
a simple schedule, you know, 
that's fine. 

802
00:45:25,520 --> 00:45:29,680
You take them all at one time, 
but as soon as you have, you 

803
00:45:29,680 --> 00:45:33,880
know, before breakfast, after 
breakfast, lunch, dinner, before

804
00:45:33,880 --> 00:45:36,880
you know before bed and so on 
gets really complicated in terms

805
00:45:36,880 --> 00:45:40,120
of separating things and or you 
know you have this. 

806
00:45:40,160 --> 00:45:43,040
This one can be taken every four
hours and this one can be taken 

807
00:45:43,040 --> 00:45:45,080
every six hours. 
This one has to be taken with 

808
00:45:45,080 --> 00:45:48,200
water. 
It can get really complicated 

809
00:45:48,200 --> 00:45:51,320
really easily. 
And so yeah, for for a situation

810
00:45:51,320 --> 00:45:56,200
like that, you have to design AA
much different solution than for

811
00:45:56,200 --> 00:45:58,960
the person who's who's taking 
one thing right. 

812
00:45:59,280 --> 00:46:02,840
Yeah, so complexity is the enemy
in many ways here, like 

813
00:46:02,840 --> 00:46:04,480
understanding how how we solve 
for that. 

814
00:46:04,480 --> 00:46:07,400
Do you have any ideas or how we 
can can manage that somehow? 

815
00:46:08,160 --> 00:46:12,880
I mean, there are definitely 
some solutions out there on the 

816
00:46:12,880 --> 00:46:14,280
market. 
So when we were talking to 

817
00:46:14,280 --> 00:46:18,120
Arthy, we were joking that that 
the pill bottle she created was,

818
00:46:18,280 --> 00:46:21,720
you know, $100 pill bottle. 
I've actually found a much more 

819
00:46:21,720 --> 00:46:26,520
expensive, actually. 
It's this massive smart 

820
00:46:26,520 --> 00:46:30,520
dispenser and it looks kind of 
like a coffee machine that you 

821
00:46:30,520 --> 00:46:34,000
essentially program your very 
complicated schedule into. 

822
00:46:34,000 --> 00:46:37,200
You dump all your pills into it 
and you know it just it. 

823
00:46:37,200 --> 00:46:40,560
It dispenses exactly what you 
need when you need it. 

824
00:46:40,680 --> 00:46:43,800
But it is bulky. 
It is expensive. 

825
00:46:43,800 --> 00:46:48,600
It's something like 30 or $50.00
a month and you know you can't 

826
00:46:48,600 --> 00:46:51,040
take it anywhere you have. 
You can only take your 

827
00:46:51,040 --> 00:46:54,000
medications at home. 
It's just like a very it's 

828
00:46:54,000 --> 00:46:57,160
personalized for complexity, but
it's not personalized for 

829
00:46:57,160 --> 00:47:01,360
something like you know someone 
who must travel or like someone 

830
00:47:01,360 --> 00:47:04,040
who needs to to take their 
medications on the go. 

831
00:47:04,360 --> 00:47:08,600
If you think of the the there 
are some some larger pill boxes 

832
00:47:08,880 --> 00:47:12,080
that still have a removable 
compartment. 

833
00:47:12,080 --> 00:47:16,600
So if you you can you can have 
your massive organization at 

834
00:47:16,600 --> 00:47:19,520
home, but then you can still, 
you know, take out your, you 

835
00:47:19,840 --> 00:47:23,400
know, you know your lunch and 
dinner meds and bring them with 

836
00:47:23,400 --> 00:47:27,040
you if you need to, which seems 
like maybe a better compromise. 

837
00:47:27,040 --> 00:47:29,880
If you can't, if your if your 
complexity is not so high that 

838
00:47:29,880 --> 00:47:34,640
you need this massive smart 
dispenser, then I think a basic 

839
00:47:34,640 --> 00:47:39,320
pill box can be, you know, just 
an adequate solution. 

840
00:47:39,600 --> 00:47:42,800
Yeah. 
This reminds me of like how how 

841
00:47:42,800 --> 00:47:46,760
used everything we do when we 
kind of basically get out of our

842
00:47:48,160 --> 00:47:51,320
confinement of our home reduces 
risk of our habits sticking. 

843
00:47:51,320 --> 00:47:54,000
Like it's just we do we 
introduce so much mess when 

844
00:47:54,000 --> 00:47:57,280
especially when we travel in 
terms of, I think that's an 

845
00:47:57,280 --> 00:48:00,320
interesting part of, you know, 
of course people travel for work

846
00:48:00,320 --> 00:48:04,800
maybe, but you know what if they
have to go for what what if they

847
00:48:04,800 --> 00:48:06,880
have to sadly go for a very nice
vacation. 

848
00:48:07,360 --> 00:48:10,120
That can still be an issue in 
terms of you can't. 

849
00:48:10,280 --> 00:48:14,560
Go on vacation. 
Yeah. 

850
00:48:14,560 --> 00:48:17,600
But it it's, it is tricky in 
terms of kind of mitigating for 

851
00:48:17,600 --> 00:48:20,160
that. 
Yeah. 

852
00:48:20,520 --> 00:48:25,240
Or personalizing for that more 
unpredictable pattern that some 

853
00:48:25,240 --> 00:48:29,720
people might be inclined for. 
And and there you're kind of 

854
00:48:30,080 --> 00:48:35,200
have to figure out the best of 
worst set up. 

855
00:48:35,200 --> 00:48:38,040
Like it's obviously the one you 
illustrated like the the hero 

856
00:48:38,040 --> 00:48:40,520
whatever machine. 
It's hard to beat that. 

857
00:48:40,640 --> 00:48:43,160
But then you're stuck at home, 
you can't leave at home and so 

858
00:48:43,160 --> 00:48:47,120
on. 
And so yeah, it seems like 

859
00:48:47,120 --> 00:48:50,720
whatever other personalized 
solution might be deficient in 

860
00:48:50,720 --> 00:48:52,720
some ways and that like, OK, if 
you bring it with you in the 

861
00:48:52,720 --> 00:48:55,400
car, you might forget about it 
in the car or you might. 

862
00:48:56,280 --> 00:48:57,960
There's a lot of those 
challenges that I think it's 

863
00:48:58,320 --> 00:49:02,000
it's interesting to consider and
I guess context will differ in 

864
00:49:02,000 --> 00:49:05,040
terms of what's needed. 
Context matters. 

865
00:49:05,040 --> 00:49:07,880
There are upsides and downsides 
to every solution. 

866
00:49:07,920 --> 00:49:11,360
And yeah, I suppose we don't 
have all the answers, other than

867
00:49:12,200 --> 00:49:16,920
there's an infinite number of 
ways to to personalize, and that

868
00:49:16,920 --> 00:49:19,600
should be done in some way. 
Yeah. 

869
00:49:19,600 --> 00:49:23,320
In the past, if we had now like 
a very clear understanding of 

870
00:49:23,320 --> 00:49:26,360
what the medication was, what 
the audience was and so on, I 

871
00:49:26,360 --> 00:49:28,920
guess it would be easier to kind
of approach this. 

872
00:49:29,320 --> 00:49:32,880
This one doesn't mean that it's 
you know again not important, 

873
00:49:32,880 --> 00:49:35,240
it's super important. 
But I think it's it's especially

874
00:49:35,240 --> 00:49:38,320
a good example where even you 
and I right now we we are a 

875
00:49:38,320 --> 00:49:42,240
little bit limited in terms of 
not really having a defined 

876
00:49:42,760 --> 00:49:45,400
thing to personalize for. 
It's true, but we do have a 

877
00:49:45,400 --> 00:49:48,840
pretty good starting point. 
I think we have some some nice 

878
00:49:48,840 --> 00:49:53,120
rules of thumb that that you can
start from in order to design if

879
00:49:53,120 --> 00:49:55,520
you did have more information 
about the situation. 

880
00:49:56,040 --> 00:49:57,960
Yeah. 
Now honestly, this has been 

881
00:49:58,400 --> 00:49:59,960
really great. 
I think this is one of the more 

882
00:49:59,960 --> 00:50:04,120
fun for details in many ways. 
And you know, it's always fun 

883
00:50:04,440 --> 00:50:08,760
whenever I say something, you 
kind of having another ace up 

884
00:50:08,760 --> 00:50:10,960
your sleeves to say like, yeah, 
I did, I did that research. 

885
00:50:11,680 --> 00:50:13,280
That's always. 
What if we did that? 

886
00:50:13,280 --> 00:50:19,200
I did do that. 
Yeah, so that I think this has 

887
00:50:19,200 --> 00:50:22,040
been awesome. 
Any closing thoughts about pill 

888
00:50:22,040 --> 00:50:24,840
boxes? 
Yeah, I think that that our 

889
00:50:24,840 --> 00:50:28,680
easy, attractive, social and 
personalized framework works. 

890
00:50:29,160 --> 00:50:33,080
It really served us pretty well 
here and and I think we could we

891
00:50:33,080 --> 00:50:35,160
could recycle it in the future 
as well. 

892
00:50:35,280 --> 00:50:39,760
Yeah, yeah. 
We'll see if BIT forgives us for

893
00:50:39,760 --> 00:50:41,800
making. 
I know we're going to get sued. 

894
00:50:46,320 --> 00:50:49,120
But yeah, hope everyone enjoyed 
this as well. 

895
00:50:49,160 --> 00:50:51,120
If you have any further ideas, 
just reach out 

896
00:50:51,880 --> 00:50:55,240
podcast@haveaweekly.com Thank 
you so much for listening, 

897
00:50:55,240 --> 00:50:58,720
supporting everything we do. 
This was the final product deep 

898
00:50:58,720 --> 00:51:02,400
dive of this season but 
hopefully more more to come next

899
00:51:02,400 --> 00:51:05,480
season. 
And again all of your messages 

900
00:51:05,480 --> 00:51:09,760
is really I think welcome. 
It's it's always, I don't know, 

901
00:51:09,760 --> 00:51:11,560
Len, do you agree that like 
there's few things that makes 

902
00:51:11,560 --> 00:51:14,240
you feel as happy as when 
someone compliments? 

903
00:51:14,560 --> 00:51:17,760
I completely agree. 
Nothing brings me more joy. 

904
00:51:19,160 --> 00:51:20,440
Yeah. 
So thanks for that and thanks 

905
00:51:20,440 --> 00:51:24,680
for listening. 
Hope you have a great day and 

906
00:51:25,280 --> 00:51:30,560
take your pills. 
Time to wrap up another episode 

907
00:51:30,560 --> 00:51:32,720
of the Behavioral Design 
Podcast. 

908
00:51:32,920 --> 00:51:37,400
We hope you enjoyed the show. 
Oh, and I am an AI. 

909
00:51:37,680 --> 00:51:41,320
Yeah, welcome to Uncanny Valley.
Sam and Elaine told me. 

910
00:51:41,320 --> 00:51:44,160
This is going to be an awesome 
season, so make sure to 

911
00:51:44,160 --> 00:51:45,920
subscribe and help spread the 
word. 

912
00:51:46,160 --> 00:51:50,120
Maybe share the podcast with a 
colleague or friend, and if you 

913
00:51:50,120 --> 00:51:53,600
want to show us some extra love,
head over to Habit Weekly. 

914
00:51:54,040 --> 00:51:57,480
Come and join our community Pro 
members, get access to a wealth 

915
00:51:57,480 --> 00:51:59,960
of resources and the chance to 
interact with leading 

916
00:51:59,960 --> 00:52:02,800
practitioners. 
It's a great way to support the 

917
00:52:02,800 --> 00:52:05,440
podcast and deepen your 
understanding of behavioral 

918
00:52:05,440 --> 00:52:08,160
design. 
Our fantastic show music is 

919
00:52:08,160 --> 00:52:10,760
Murgatroyd by the wonderful Dave
Pizarro. 

920
00:52:10,760 --> 00:52:13,720
And thanks to the team at Orange
Wall Media for the production of

921
00:52:13,720 --> 00:52:16,360
this episode. 
For questions or ideas for 

922
00:52:16,360 --> 00:52:20,520
future episodes, e-mail 
podcast@habitweekly.com. 

923
00:52:20,800 --> 00:52:24,200
We'd love to hear from you. 
Thanks again for listening. 

924
00:52:24,440 --> 00:52:25,320
See you next time.