1 00:00:02,760 --> 00:00:11,640 What happens to Mugatroid? Hey, Sam. 2 00:00:12,520 --> 00:00:14,720 Hey, Lynn. I have a question for you. 3 00:00:15,760 --> 00:00:18,600 Yeah, sure. So I've been thinking a lot 4 00:00:18,600 --> 00:00:22,200 about AI and productivity and what that all means. 5 00:00:22,360 --> 00:00:26,360 And I've come across some RCTs, some more recent than others, 6 00:00:27,040 --> 00:00:30,760 really looking at this question, like, does generative AI 7 00:00:30,760 --> 00:00:36,280 specifically increase productivity in, say, knowledge 8 00:00:36,280 --> 00:00:39,920 work, the types of work that you and I do maybe with consulting 9 00:00:39,920 --> 00:00:43,960 where we need to really think through a problem, generate 10 00:00:43,960 --> 00:00:47,000 solutions and come to some sort of recommendation. 11 00:00:47,440 --> 00:00:50,720 And the results out there like really are pretty promising. 12 00:00:50,720 --> 00:00:55,360 There are some dramatic effects of increasing productivity from 13 00:00:55,440 --> 00:00:59,000 these AI tools. And so my question for you is 14 00:00:59,000 --> 00:01:02,520 really more about your personal experience, like if you were to 15 00:01:02,520 --> 00:01:09,200 like compare your life with AI now to not like way pre AI, but 16 00:01:09,280 --> 00:01:13,920 like maybe in the early days sort of Sam without AI versus 17 00:01:13,920 --> 00:01:15,960 Sam with AI. What do you think? 18 00:01:15,960 --> 00:01:20,880 Are you more productive with AI? You're asking whether I have 19 00:01:20,880 --> 00:01:23,320 like 10X my productivity in the last few years? 20 00:01:23,880 --> 00:01:26,080 That's what the LinkedIn lunatics would tell you for 21 00:01:26,120 --> 00:01:28,880 sure, yeah. It's an interesting question and 22 00:01:29,920 --> 00:01:33,200 you know there's 2 answers to this. 23 00:01:33,200 --> 00:01:37,280 I think 1 is that I definitely feel more productive in some 24 00:01:37,280 --> 00:01:43,640 ways, like I'm able to generate more value within the consulting 25 00:01:44,040 --> 00:01:46,920 projects that I'm involved with. At the same time, I've had this 26 00:01:46,920 --> 00:01:50,400 feeling for the last couple of weeks where basically I'm just 27 00:01:50,400 --> 00:01:54,200 feeling like I'm behind with everything, especially after 28 00:01:54,200 --> 00:01:55,280 some travels and some other things. 29 00:01:55,320 --> 00:01:57,600 I'm feeling like I'm trying to get so much stuff done and I'm 30 00:01:57,600 --> 00:02:00,280 still feeling like I'm catching up on so much. 31 00:02:00,280 --> 00:02:04,480 So in some ways, my perceived productivity is not really high. 32 00:02:04,480 --> 00:02:08,680 Like I feel like I'm still behind the curve of where I 33 00:02:08,680 --> 00:02:11,640 would want to be. But again, if I would zoom out 34 00:02:11,800 --> 00:02:13,480 and I would look at, OK, what am I doing? 35 00:02:13,800 --> 00:02:16,520 How does that compare to what I was doing like 2 years ago or a 36 00:02:16,520 --> 00:02:19,160 year ago or whenever? I definitely would say that I've 37 00:02:19,560 --> 00:02:24,240 become much more able at quote UN quote, generating value 38 00:02:24,560 --> 00:02:26,760 within my role. Yeah. 39 00:02:27,240 --> 00:02:30,800 Do you feel like that problem of always trying to catch up and 40 00:02:30,800 --> 00:02:33,520 feel like you're in control of your time in your life? 41 00:02:33,520 --> 00:02:36,960 Like is that exacerbated by AI? Do you feel like that's worse 42 00:02:36,960 --> 00:02:39,480 that feeling? I think in general, I'm someone 43 00:02:39,480 --> 00:02:41,960 who's like relatively optimistic about like, you know, this can 44 00:02:41,960 --> 00:02:44,160 be done, this can be possible and so on and so forth. 45 00:02:44,520 --> 00:02:47,880 And in some ways you could say that like, that is not always a 46 00:02:47,880 --> 00:02:50,040 good thing. You know, it's a good thing to 47 00:02:50,040 --> 00:02:53,320 be resourceful and to be optimistic in some regards, but 48 00:02:53,320 --> 00:02:56,000 it can also be a little bit of risking biting off more than you 49 00:02:56,000 --> 00:02:58,400 can chew. And you could almost say that 50 00:02:58,400 --> 00:03:01,600 like I almost had a some of a tendency that's been made worse 51 00:03:01,600 --> 00:03:06,120 now because now I do think that I'm even more likely to probably 52 00:03:06,120 --> 00:03:11,080 be like, OK, this is probably something I don't really have 53 00:03:11,080 --> 00:03:14,360 time for, but something that would have been more like to say 54 00:03:14,360 --> 00:03:17,160 no to before. I'm now kind of like, yeah, OK, 55 00:03:17,160 --> 00:03:21,880 let's do it. So you have this illusion of 56 00:03:22,280 --> 00:03:27,360 ease basically that makes you say yes to more things that, you 57 00:03:27,360 --> 00:03:30,440 know, maybe previously you would have realized no, this is going 58 00:03:30,440 --> 00:03:32,360 to take a lot of effort and time. 59 00:03:32,360 --> 00:03:35,960 I can't possibly commit to that. That's interesting. 60 00:03:36,280 --> 00:03:39,560 I'm reluctant to admit that I can relate to all of what you're 61 00:03:39,560 --> 00:03:43,520 saying, even though when I zoom out, I kind of think of myself 62 00:03:43,520 --> 00:03:48,280 as being a little farther along on this journey of accepting 63 00:03:48,280 --> 00:03:53,120 life's finitude and being at peace with the fact that there 64 00:03:53,120 --> 00:03:56,600 is so much that I'll never be able to accomplish in my life 65 00:03:56,600 --> 00:03:59,960 that I, like, really should just focus on the smaller proportion 66 00:03:59,960 --> 00:04:02,680 of things that matter. This is something that I'm very 67 00:04:02,680 --> 00:04:05,440 much actively working on and have been working on for years. 68 00:04:05,640 --> 00:04:07,920 I got to a point where it was just really, really bad. 69 00:04:07,920 --> 00:04:12,320 And I felt extremely burnt out. And actually, this is where our 70 00:04:12,320 --> 00:04:16,040 guest, Oliver Berkman, really like, unbeknownst to him, came 71 00:04:16,040 --> 00:04:20,320 in and sort of like pulled me out of the sea and helped me 72 00:04:20,320 --> 00:04:22,800 realize like, no, no, you are a human. 73 00:04:23,400 --> 00:04:25,640 Like this is OK. And how did that happen? 74 00:04:25,640 --> 00:04:30,320 Like how did he pull you out? Oh, I read his book 4000 Weeks 75 00:04:30,320 --> 00:04:36,280 1st and really helped me come to terms with many of these very 76 00:04:36,280 --> 00:04:39,680 cruel realities. And we'll get into this so much 77 00:04:39,680 --> 00:04:42,080 more in our conversation with him. 78 00:04:42,080 --> 00:04:46,000 But understand, like, you're not going to be able to control life 79 00:04:46,240 --> 00:04:49,400 and you need to just accept you're not going to feel on top 80 00:04:49,400 --> 00:04:52,000 of things ever. You're not going to be on top of 81 00:04:52,000 --> 00:04:55,440 things ever. So you may as well just deal 82 00:04:55,440 --> 00:04:58,280 with what you've got and enjoy the moment now, because you're 83 00:04:58,280 --> 00:05:01,480 not gonna get to a point where you've set up this perfect 84 00:05:01,480 --> 00:05:03,960 system for organizing your life and your work. 85 00:05:04,160 --> 00:05:06,160 You're never gonna have all of your research articles 86 00:05:06,160 --> 00:05:11,280 organized, and that's OK. Except that and work within 87 00:05:11,280 --> 00:05:12,800 these constraints in this reality. 88 00:05:14,080 --> 00:05:16,520 Yes, I assume everything worked out and life is perfect. 89 00:05:17,320 --> 00:05:20,640 Oh my gosh, I wish I could say that this was the case. 90 00:05:21,120 --> 00:05:25,640 No, I started sharing my new perspective with everyone I knew 91 00:05:25,640 --> 00:05:28,800 and, you know, recommended 4000 weeks to literally, I'm sure I 92 00:05:28,800 --> 00:05:31,200 was so obnoxious, right? Like everyone I talked to, I was 93 00:05:31,200 --> 00:05:33,080 like, have you read this book? I still do it. 94 00:05:33,400 --> 00:05:38,200 But no, I fell off the wagon and didn't make any grand changes in 95 00:05:38,200 --> 00:05:44,200 my life until Oliver's next book came around, his more recent 96 00:05:44,200 --> 00:05:47,840 Meditations for Mortals. And this was like really what I 97 00:05:47,840 --> 00:05:49,800 needed. And I like to sort of think of 98 00:05:49,800 --> 00:05:52,680 this from a behavioral design perspective because the first 99 00:05:52,680 --> 00:05:56,040 book was more like introducing the philosophy and more of like 100 00:05:56,080 --> 00:05:58,200 information. But information doesn't change 101 00:05:58,200 --> 00:06:02,240 behavior as we know. And then next book, follow up is 102 00:06:02,240 --> 00:06:04,760 like very practical, almost like a workbook. 103 00:06:04,800 --> 00:06:07,120 Oh, he would be so insulted if he heard me call it a workbook. 104 00:06:07,120 --> 00:06:11,800 But it's like, focus on one thing every day for a month and 105 00:06:11,800 --> 00:06:15,160 like, really start implementing into your daily life this 106 00:06:15,160 --> 00:06:19,000 practice of like putting the philosophy into action. 107 00:06:19,160 --> 00:06:24,760 So that was what I needed. And now I am much closer to a 108 00:06:24,760 --> 00:06:30,320 place where I could say I have some acceptance of never having 109 00:06:30,320 --> 00:06:33,880 the control over my life that I am used to imagine I needed. 110 00:06:34,720 --> 00:06:38,360 That's awesome though. And what would you say is the 111 00:06:39,400 --> 00:06:43,200 one meditation like the one thing for you as a mortal that 112 00:06:43,200 --> 00:06:47,000 has been valuable for you? So the one that I've latched 113 00:06:47,000 --> 00:06:50,680 onto the most, which doesn't sound nearly as profound when 114 00:06:50,680 --> 00:06:53,760 you actually say it out loud, but it's just this idea that you 115 00:06:53,760 --> 00:06:56,480 can do whatever you want. You just have to face the 116 00:06:56,480 --> 00:07:00,600 consequences. And it's, I have felt in so many 117 00:07:00,960 --> 00:07:04,480 times in my life that there are just all of these very 118 00:07:04,480 --> 00:07:09,600 artificial constraints around our days that make us think that 119 00:07:09,600 --> 00:07:13,080 we have to do particular things when we are really choosing to 120 00:07:13,080 --> 00:07:16,400 do those things. I have to complete some work 121 00:07:16,400 --> 00:07:18,880 assignment. Well, actually, I don't have to 122 00:07:18,880 --> 00:07:21,680 do anything. I can not do that. 123 00:07:21,720 --> 00:07:26,400 I can ask for an extension. I can just cancel everything all 124 00:07:26,400 --> 00:07:29,440 together and go on vacation. You just have to accept the 125 00:07:29,440 --> 00:07:33,520 consequences. You know, this actually brings 126 00:07:33,520 --> 00:07:38,200 to mind a very random but I think quite well known payroll 127 00:07:38,200 --> 00:07:39,800 science study from back in the day. 128 00:07:40,040 --> 00:07:42,320 I'm not sure if this is replicated, but you remember the 129 00:07:42,320 --> 00:07:46,640 one where they basically had some form of daycare or 130 00:07:46,640 --> 00:07:50,880 kindergarten and they institute as a form of monetary fine or 131 00:07:50,880 --> 00:07:53,800 penalty for parents? Yeah. 132 00:07:54,080 --> 00:07:57,040 So like if a parent came and picked up their kid late, they 133 00:07:57,040 --> 00:07:58,960 will get a fine. And it had like, the unintended 134 00:07:58,960 --> 00:08:04,120 consequence of basically for people, it was less of a cost to 135 00:08:04,120 --> 00:08:09,480 pay to be late than the social cost of coming late and feeling 136 00:08:09,480 --> 00:08:12,960 bad about it. So basically, it led to the kids 137 00:08:12,960 --> 00:08:14,760 being left at kindergarten longer. 138 00:08:15,200 --> 00:08:18,520 And in some ways it's kind of like a very similar mechanism in 139 00:08:18,520 --> 00:08:20,800 place. Like in that sense, those 140 00:08:20,800 --> 00:08:24,720 parents felt bad for not picking up their kids at a certain time. 141 00:08:25,160 --> 00:08:27,320 They feel like they had to. But then when they there was a 142 00:08:27,400 --> 00:08:30,880 monetary cost to it, they could basically choose like, OK, I 143 00:08:31,520 --> 00:08:33,440 could do it now or I can pay this cost. 144 00:08:33,480 --> 00:08:35,600 OK, I will choose them to pay the cost. 145 00:08:35,960 --> 00:08:38,080 Yeah. And I think Oliver Berkman would 146 00:08:38,080 --> 00:08:41,919 say these are really just two types of costs, right? 147 00:08:41,919 --> 00:08:44,960 You have the social cost of maybe somebody's feelings are 148 00:08:44,960 --> 00:08:47,560 going to be hurt, but maybe you don't have to bear that burden. 149 00:08:47,760 --> 00:08:50,240 Maybe it's like not yours to take on. 150 00:08:50,400 --> 00:08:53,160 And then you have the financial cost of, OK, if you're late, you 151 00:08:53,160 --> 00:08:56,600 have to pay this actual fine. And you can decide. 152 00:08:56,600 --> 00:08:59,800 You can do your cost benefit analysis and decide which 153 00:08:59,800 --> 00:09:02,280 consequences are actually worth taking on. 154 00:09:02,480 --> 00:09:06,920 And I think for me, I've come to realize that the consequences 155 00:09:06,920 --> 00:09:10,880 are generally not so high. And there are a lot of 156 00:09:10,880 --> 00:09:14,320 consequences that you can, you know, without being a jerk. 157 00:09:14,320 --> 00:09:19,320 Obviously, there are a lot more consequences that you should be 158 00:09:19,320 --> 00:09:22,840 willing to take on in order to do the thing that actually is 159 00:09:22,840 --> 00:09:27,360 meaningful for you. OK, before we're now getting to 160 00:09:27,360 --> 00:09:30,560 the episode, I have to ask, is there anything specifically for 161 00:09:30,560 --> 00:09:34,760 you that's been something that you are willing to, Yeah, to 162 00:09:34,760 --> 00:09:36,440 accept the consequences of a certain thing? 163 00:09:36,440 --> 00:09:39,600 And you're like, back up these grand proclamations with an 164 00:09:39,600 --> 00:09:43,480 actual example. I would say there's a really 165 00:09:43,520 --> 00:09:48,400 quite big one, which is that my family and I have decided to 166 00:09:48,400 --> 00:09:53,800 move to Switzerland for a year. And that's a pretty big deal 167 00:09:53,800 --> 00:09:58,840 that most people that I talk to tell me I could not ever do 168 00:09:58,840 --> 00:10:00,280 that. That would not be possible for 169 00:10:00,280 --> 00:10:03,680 our family. And in my head, I say to myself, 170 00:10:03,680 --> 00:10:06,000 not to them, well, you could do it. 171 00:10:06,040 --> 00:10:08,120 You would just have to face the consequences. 172 00:10:08,160 --> 00:10:11,120 You would have to do all the work that it takes to, you know, 173 00:10:11,160 --> 00:10:13,280 move your life around in order to make it happen. 174 00:10:13,560 --> 00:10:19,640 And for some that may be a little bit too bold, but I feel 175 00:10:20,360 --> 00:10:25,800 extremely excited and freed by this prospect and the 176 00:10:26,960 --> 00:10:30,560 opportunity that I've sort of given myself by deciding that I 177 00:10:30,560 --> 00:10:33,960 am just going to do it and face the consequences. 178 00:10:36,080 --> 00:10:39,160 Honestly, I love that. That is really beautiful and 179 00:10:39,160 --> 00:10:43,160 inspiring, actually. So should we talk about Oliver? 180 00:10:44,040 --> 00:10:48,120 Yeah, Oliver is a different kind of guest for us, which is always 181 00:10:48,120 --> 00:10:50,960 very fun. He's a journalist and an author. 182 00:10:51,000 --> 00:10:54,000 Highly, highly, highly recommend all of his books. 183 00:10:54,240 --> 00:10:58,400 He had a column in the Guardian for a very long time and really 184 00:10:58,400 --> 00:11:02,800 focused on productivity for many, many years and kind of 185 00:11:02,800 --> 00:11:06,640 moved from that into focusing more on well-being and living a 186 00:11:06,640 --> 00:11:10,000 more fulfilled life. And so fascinating to see how 187 00:11:10,000 --> 00:11:12,720 these topics intersect and sometimes are at odds with each 188 00:11:12,720 --> 00:11:14,400 other, sometimes complimenting each other. 189 00:11:15,080 --> 00:11:17,280 Maybe more related than you might think. 190 00:11:17,920 --> 00:11:21,840 Yeah. And I honestly will say that 191 00:11:21,920 --> 00:11:25,880 this might be our most important episode of the season in some 192 00:11:25,880 --> 00:11:29,200 ways because life changing it life changing. 193 00:11:29,200 --> 00:11:34,960 I think it's no hyperbole there. But I think it's really 194 00:11:34,960 --> 00:11:39,440 important that in the midst of all of the hyper on AI, this 195 00:11:39,440 --> 00:11:43,840 kind of conversation that Oliver brings is crucial because it 196 00:11:43,840 --> 00:11:48,440 helps understand really what are we trying to do here and how do 197 00:11:48,440 --> 00:11:51,680 we think about this? And how do we actually find a 198 00:11:51,680 --> 00:11:56,160 place for AI that leads to, you know, we talked a little bit 199 00:11:56,160 --> 00:12:00,640 about how it brings value to life, but really, you know, what 200 00:12:00,640 --> 00:12:02,600 is the future of work? What is the future of humanity 201 00:12:02,600 --> 00:12:04,520 look like? And how do we want that to look 202 00:12:04,520 --> 00:12:06,840 like? And I think this episode might 203 00:12:06,840 --> 00:12:09,840 provide you with some different ways to think about that. 204 00:12:10,120 --> 00:12:12,560 And we're really excited to share it and get it started. 205 00:12:12,600 --> 00:12:17,720 So here is Oliver. Happens. 206 00:12:19,320 --> 00:12:29,680 To Murgatroyd. Wow, Oliver, welcome to the 207 00:12:29,680 --> 00:12:31,760 show. Thanks very much for inviting 208 00:12:31,760 --> 00:12:33,840 me. Yeah, we're super excited to 209 00:12:33,840 --> 00:12:37,640 have you here. So this is rare that I get to 210 00:12:37,640 --> 00:12:41,000 say this, but it's probably not hyperbole to say that your work 211 00:12:41,000 --> 00:12:43,760 has truly, deeply changed my life. 212 00:12:43,760 --> 00:12:47,600 So first, like my outlook on life and then actually bleeding 213 00:12:47,600 --> 00:12:50,560 into my behavior, It took a little bit of work for it to 214 00:12:50,560 --> 00:12:53,480 actually get from intention to action. 215 00:12:53,520 --> 00:12:58,240 But I think there's kind of a cliche version of your work that 216 00:12:58,240 --> 00:13:01,440 most people would be familiar with, which is just this idea of 217 00:13:01,440 --> 00:13:03,840 that, you know, life is short, make the most of it. 218 00:13:04,800 --> 00:13:07,880 And it's tempting to kind of reduce it to that or even to 219 00:13:07,880 --> 00:13:12,000 say, like, you write and teach about time management, but 220 00:13:12,000 --> 00:13:15,320 that's not really it either. Part of what makes your work so 221 00:13:15,320 --> 00:13:19,080 special, for me at least, is really making concrete the 4000 222 00:13:19,080 --> 00:13:22,520 weeks of life that we have and kind of seeing that as a counter 223 00:13:23,000 --> 00:13:26,760 and also making it applicable to the actual problems that we 224 00:13:26,760 --> 00:13:28,560 face. And, and for me at least, this 225 00:13:28,560 --> 00:13:31,880 idea that we are struggling chasing to stay, quote UN quote, 226 00:13:31,880 --> 00:13:35,200 on top of everything. This not only feels very hard 227 00:13:35,320 --> 00:13:39,200 and you know, we make ourselves miserable in this attempt to 228 00:13:39,200 --> 00:13:43,040 stay on top of the mountain, but actually it's not just hard, it 229 00:13:43,040 --> 00:13:46,720 is impossible. Once you kind of embrace that 230 00:13:46,920 --> 00:13:50,120 impossibility of it, there's something freeing about that. 231 00:13:50,480 --> 00:13:53,600 And I, I know that you didn't write any of your books for 232 00:13:53,600 --> 00:13:57,080 Thousand Weeks or Meditations for Mortals with AI or 233 00:13:57,080 --> 00:14:01,520 behavioral design in mind. But Sam and I, we have been over 234 00:14:01,520 --> 00:14:03,800 time making all kinds of connections between these 235 00:14:03,800 --> 00:14:06,240 topics. And we thought we could, I don't 236 00:14:06,240 --> 00:14:10,520 know, just hash out some of our thoughts and maybe consider this 237 00:14:10,520 --> 00:14:12,680 like a working session. I'd, I'd love that. 238 00:14:12,800 --> 00:14:16,200 I have all sorts of thoughts about the relevance of AI, but 239 00:14:16,200 --> 00:14:18,280 whether they're on point or not is another question. 240 00:14:18,480 --> 00:14:20,480 And thank you for all your kind words about my stuff. 241 00:14:20,840 --> 00:14:23,760 Maybe one thing that's worth saying in terms of how I think 242 00:14:23,760 --> 00:14:26,680 about the sort of cliched version versus what I'm hoping 243 00:14:26,680 --> 00:14:31,480 to say is like one response you can have when you start thinking 244 00:14:31,480 --> 00:14:34,360 about how short life is or just how short time is on a daily 245 00:14:34,360 --> 00:14:36,520 basis, right? Not necessarily these grand 246 00:14:36,520 --> 00:14:39,120 questions. One response you can have is 247 00:14:39,120 --> 00:14:42,680 like, well, then I better treat it like it's incredibly precious 248 00:14:42,680 --> 00:14:45,960 and cram as much as I can into every available space. 249 00:14:45,960 --> 00:14:48,760 And if I waste a moment of it, that's terrible. 250 00:14:48,760 --> 00:14:51,280 And I've got to be doing extraordinary impressive things 251 00:14:51,280 --> 00:14:53,160 with my work time and my leisure time. 252 00:14:53,960 --> 00:14:57,160 And like, that's not only not the point I want to make, it's 253 00:14:57,160 --> 00:15:01,120 almost like the whole thing that I'm setting myself up against 254 00:15:02,000 --> 00:15:03,800 the way of seeing this. It's meant so much to me. 255 00:15:03,800 --> 00:15:06,640 And I am completely a work in progress myself when it comes to 256 00:15:06,640 --> 00:15:10,760 sort of living it, of course. But is that if you actually 257 00:15:10,760 --> 00:15:15,040 really think more deeply about our limitations, our finitude, 258 00:15:15,960 --> 00:15:19,880 and you let it sort of sink under your skin a bit, it's sort 259 00:15:19,880 --> 00:15:22,680 of relaxing and empowering at once. 260 00:15:23,120 --> 00:15:26,520 It isn't this kind of rather stressful feeling of like, Oh 261 00:15:26,520 --> 00:15:29,360 no, that means I've got to really be like hyper vigilant in 262 00:15:29,360 --> 00:15:31,840 every moment. I need to go skydiving today. 263 00:15:31,880 --> 00:15:33,520 Right. It's good news, it's de 264 00:15:33,520 --> 00:15:36,160 stressing news, but it's actually also empowering and 265 00:15:36,200 --> 00:15:40,000 action oriented news. I guess the other poll that I'm 266 00:15:40,160 --> 00:15:43,880 trying to avoid here, as well as the one that says like, stress 267 00:15:43,880 --> 00:15:46,880 yourself out trying to eke every moment of value from your time, 268 00:15:46,880 --> 00:15:48,960 is the one that says there's no point doing anything. 269 00:15:48,960 --> 00:15:51,960 Just sit on the couch and eat potato chips. 270 00:15:53,000 --> 00:15:53,960 And I don't think it's either of those. 271 00:15:53,960 --> 00:15:57,440 I hope because this is what I'm would like life to be able to be 272 00:15:57,440 --> 00:16:01,120 like, is that it can be like peaceful and also active. 273 00:16:01,280 --> 00:16:04,840 Yeah, I have a really random connection to to your work. 274 00:16:04,840 --> 00:16:06,600 I don't know if you've heard of Lonely Island. 275 00:16:06,600 --> 00:16:11,040 Does that ring a bell for you? The music group coming out of 276 00:16:11,040 --> 00:16:14,720 Southern Night Live where they make this silly, stupid songs 277 00:16:14,720 --> 00:16:18,520 about various things. Yeah, that does ring a bell. 278 00:16:18,640 --> 00:16:21,960 Only a think one there. They took this concept of Yolo 279 00:16:22,400 --> 00:16:25,240 and you're kind of speaking just like some people think about 280 00:16:25,640 --> 00:16:28,720 Yolo as you only live once, you should really do everything you 281 00:16:28,720 --> 00:16:34,520 can to maximize this short time. We have, you know, parachuting, 282 00:16:34,520 --> 00:16:37,960 partying, whatever that means. And then they did a form of 283 00:16:38,120 --> 00:16:41,200 satire rather than that, like basically singing about opposite 284 00:16:41,200 --> 00:16:43,000 things. OK, you only live once. 285 00:16:43,000 --> 00:16:44,440 You have to really take care of this life. 286 00:16:44,440 --> 00:16:48,240 You, you should wear a seat belt and helmet and all of these 287 00:16:48,240 --> 00:16:51,040 things to protect yourself and, you know, this precious life. 288 00:16:51,040 --> 00:16:56,160 And I think it's, it's those kind of two kind of rock and a 289 00:16:56,160 --> 00:16:58,240 hard place that I think a lot of people find themselves with 290 00:16:58,240 --> 00:17:00,440 where it's like, OK on one. Then you're feeling this 291 00:17:00,440 --> 00:17:04,560 pressure to maximize something and at the same time not losing 292 00:17:04,560 --> 00:17:06,599 it. It's really that Nexus of the 293 00:17:06,599 --> 00:17:08,839 human experience. I think that you have cultivated 294 00:17:08,839 --> 00:17:11,720 a really interesting opportunity for people to use take a breath 295 00:17:11,720 --> 00:17:15,400 and be like, OK, well, what can I do? 296 00:17:15,400 --> 00:17:17,880 What can I control? Yeah, no, that that makes sense. 297 00:17:17,880 --> 00:17:20,280 I guess what both those that rock and that hard place have in 298 00:17:20,280 --> 00:17:24,280 common is that their attempts to feel in control, aren't they? 299 00:17:24,280 --> 00:17:25,640 There's an attempt to feel in control. 300 00:17:25,640 --> 00:17:28,520 That's very obvious in the case of living a an extremely safe 301 00:17:28,520 --> 00:17:31,320 and cautious life. Nothing wrong with being 302 00:17:31,320 --> 00:17:34,040 cautious in general, but if you think it's going to cause you to 303 00:17:34,040 --> 00:17:38,000 not die, that is a misunderstanding of the human 304 00:17:38,000 --> 00:17:40,120 condition. And then on the other hand, 305 00:17:40,120 --> 00:17:45,360 actually that sort of attempt to extract the maximum experiential 306 00:17:45,360 --> 00:17:48,680 value out of life implicitly so that you could sort of sit on 307 00:17:48,680 --> 00:17:52,360 your deathbed and say I succeeded or I might have 308 00:17:52,360 --> 00:17:55,240 failed. You know, that is also a desire 309 00:17:55,240 --> 00:17:59,880 to feel in control. I think of a subtler kind, and I 310 00:17:59,880 --> 00:18:02,920 think the point I'm coming back to again and again is that it's 311 00:18:02,920 --> 00:18:06,040 really worth experimenting with. Not trying to squelch those 312 00:18:06,040 --> 00:18:09,200 parts of us that want to feel and control, but just learning 313 00:18:09,200 --> 00:18:10,880 to loosen our grip on that a bit. 314 00:18:11,320 --> 00:18:15,720 One of the primary things that you see when some new AI tool 315 00:18:15,720 --> 00:18:20,800 comes out is like the value add is oh, it will 10X20X your 316 00:18:20,800 --> 00:18:23,520 productivity. Here are the, you know, extreme 317 00:18:23,800 --> 00:18:27,080 efficiency gains that you're going to see from using this 318 00:18:27,080 --> 00:18:29,720 tool. Tell me all the things that are 319 00:18:29,720 --> 00:18:34,560 wrong with that. I don't see any reason yet. 320 00:18:34,560 --> 00:18:39,600 Maybe there are some. I don't see any reason why extra 321 00:18:39,600 --> 00:18:43,960 efficiency that comes from AI is an exception to the rule about 322 00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:46,640 what happens when you get more efficient and optimized that 323 00:18:46,640 --> 00:18:48,600 I've written about quite extensively now. 324 00:18:48,920 --> 00:18:53,200 All things being equal, if you free up time and bandwidth in 325 00:18:53,200 --> 00:18:57,400 your work through efficiency savings, then the result is that 326 00:18:57,920 --> 00:19:01,160 new capacity fills with even more things to do. 327 00:19:01,160 --> 00:19:04,480 There's a sort of you're getting better and faster at making your 328 00:19:04,480 --> 00:19:08,320 way through a supply of tasks or demands or obligations that is 329 00:19:08,320 --> 00:19:11,120 effectively infinite. So you don't get through it at 330 00:19:11,120 --> 00:19:12,720 all. You just do more of them more 331 00:19:12,720 --> 00:19:15,640 quickly. The classic example, you know, 332 00:19:15,640 --> 00:19:19,760 if you just get much quicker at answering e-mail, the thing that 333 00:19:19,760 --> 00:19:22,600 happens is that you reply to more people more quickly and 334 00:19:22,600 --> 00:19:25,240 then they reply to you and then you have to reply to those 335 00:19:25,240 --> 00:19:27,120 replies. And before you know, you're 336 00:19:27,120 --> 00:19:28,480 doing more e-mail with your life. 337 00:19:28,720 --> 00:19:31,120 It's a terrible cycle. Right, not everyone can, but if 338 00:19:31,120 --> 00:19:33,600 you can get away in your job with being a little bit LAX when 339 00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:36,400 it comes to e-mail, that's the way to get to a more peaceful 340 00:19:36,680 --> 00:19:38,400 relationship with it. So in other words, you can't 341 00:19:38,400 --> 00:19:43,480 optimize yourself to this position of control and Peace of 342 00:19:43,480 --> 00:19:47,200 Mind and serenity. It's going to have the opposite 343 00:19:47,200 --> 00:19:48,600 effect. Doesn't mean that every 344 00:19:48,600 --> 00:19:51,880 efficiency saving is a bad thing, and maybe there are ways 345 00:19:51,880 --> 00:19:57,080 in which AI can change the content of the job more in favor 346 00:19:57,080 --> 00:19:59,360 of the things that are fulfilling about that job. 347 00:19:59,360 --> 00:20:02,000 But, you know, that's one of many possible outcomes here, 348 00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:04,080 including the elimination of the jobs. 349 00:20:04,080 --> 00:20:05,840 Yeah. So you can imagine a positive 350 00:20:05,840 --> 00:20:09,080 change to the job and you can imagine a negative change to the 351 00:20:09,080 --> 00:20:11,240 job. And many versions of this, the 352 00:20:11,240 --> 00:20:14,360 positive version could be, this is an example that's used with 353 00:20:14,560 --> 00:20:19,440 AI medical scribes. So this is basically when a 354 00:20:19,440 --> 00:20:24,840 doctor and a patient are in a room and the AI scribe is taking 355 00:20:24,840 --> 00:20:28,560 notes of their conversation and then can generate an automated 356 00:20:28,560 --> 00:20:33,080 summary of that and assist the physician in writing up their 357 00:20:33,080 --> 00:20:35,960 notes for that patient later. And you know, right now the 358 00:20:36,000 --> 00:20:37,880 physician burnout is a huge problem. 359 00:20:38,680 --> 00:20:43,240 Easing up on documentation seems like a purely good thing. 360 00:20:43,560 --> 00:20:48,880 However, rather than using this freed up time for the physician 361 00:20:48,880 --> 00:20:52,920 to like, enjoy their evenings at home alone without working or 362 00:20:52,920 --> 00:20:56,920 have more quality time with a patient, instead what they're 363 00:20:57,320 --> 00:20:59,920 now burdened with is actually seeing more patient. 364 00:21:00,240 --> 00:21:02,720 Yeah, and this is not a new thing with AI, right? 365 00:21:02,880 --> 00:21:05,840 It's the idea that the reward for good time management is more 366 00:21:05,840 --> 00:21:08,000 work. This is sort of sardonically 367 00:21:08,000 --> 00:21:11,360 known as the Kaiser reward among people in the Kaiser Permanente 368 00:21:11,360 --> 00:21:13,160 healthcare system. Because like, if you see more 369 00:21:13,160 --> 00:21:15,120 patients more effectively, your reward will be you have to see 370 00:21:15,120 --> 00:21:17,600 even more patients. And that's just ultimately 371 00:21:17,880 --> 00:21:19,320 capitalism. I mean, that's just the 372 00:21:19,320 --> 00:21:22,200 pressures. The natural movement of the 373 00:21:22,200 --> 00:21:27,480 economic system that we exist in is not going to say to those 374 00:21:27,680 --> 00:21:31,560 doctors like you, take it easy with your spare time and if we 375 00:21:31,720 --> 00:21:34,200 need more patients to be seen, we'll hire some more doctors. 376 00:21:34,280 --> 00:21:37,800 That's not what would happen. But there's this alternative 377 00:21:37,840 --> 00:21:42,200 utopia, I think that is talked about sometimes, maybe not in 378 00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:45,280 reality, but like we now can just relax. 379 00:21:45,280 --> 00:21:49,240 Like the machines are doing all of the work and we can just lie 380 00:21:49,240 --> 00:21:51,480 on the beach and we don't have to worry about this anymore. 381 00:21:51,480 --> 00:21:54,200 We know maybe there's some sort of universal basic income. 382 00:21:54,200 --> 00:21:57,880 And my reaction to this is, well, you know, like many of us 383 00:21:57,960 --> 00:22:02,320 could actually do that now, but we, for whatever reason, choose 384 00:22:02,320 --> 00:22:08,040 to work, we enjoy working. And part of me fears that with 385 00:22:08,040 --> 00:22:11,200 the rise of these AI tools that are creating all of these 386 00:22:11,200 --> 00:22:16,000 efficiencies, that actually is making the work that we enjoy 387 00:22:16,080 --> 00:22:19,640 less enjoyable. So that you sort of become this 388 00:22:20,320 --> 00:22:25,200 taskmaster of sorts or a tool master perhaps, and all you're 389 00:22:25,200 --> 00:22:28,640 doing is kind of saying like, OK, you go setting the goals for 390 00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:33,120 this tool and that tool and not actually doing the fun critical 391 00:22:33,120 --> 00:22:34,600 thinking. It's a great point. 392 00:22:34,600 --> 00:22:39,360 And of course, you know, this is the AI version of a time 393 00:22:39,560 --> 00:22:42,720 honoured complaint that if you get good at a job, you get 394 00:22:43,040 --> 00:22:46,560 kicked upwards into being a manager of that job instead of 395 00:22:46,680 --> 00:22:50,240 doing the job that you came into it to do because you found it so 396 00:22:50,520 --> 00:22:53,520 interesting. I have a friend who sort of 397 00:22:53,520 --> 00:22:56,520 voluntarily demoted himself in a high school setting away from a 398 00:22:56,520 --> 00:22:59,400 management position because he realized that, like, what he 399 00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:03,480 wants to do is teach. And yeah, I can easily see that 400 00:23:03,480 --> 00:23:06,880 we all become managers of AIS and nothing more than, you know, 401 00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:09,720 there may be people for whom that is a passion, but there'll 402 00:23:09,720 --> 00:23:13,480 be lots of us for whom it isn't. In my working definition, I've 403 00:23:13,480 --> 00:23:16,600 called this automation drift. 2 examples that I've actually come 404 00:23:16,600 --> 00:23:19,960 across personally recently is so one person who was a writer and 405 00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:23,280 another person was a coder. The writer have seen this 406 00:23:23,720 --> 00:23:29,400 amazing AI tools allowing them to take these lengthy process of 407 00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:34,160 writing to like just sparking the idea and having the AI write 408 00:23:34,160 --> 00:23:36,720 a lot of stuff automatically for this person. 409 00:23:37,160 --> 00:23:40,680 And they find themselves that like, wow, I can write so much 410 00:23:40,680 --> 00:23:43,360 more. But actually what they do now is 411 00:23:43,360 --> 00:23:46,200 not writing anywhere. They used editing and So what 412 00:23:46,200 --> 00:23:48,520 they used to enjoy doing was the writing part and they hated 413 00:23:48,520 --> 00:23:50,600 editing. But thanks to these tools that 414 00:23:50,840 --> 00:23:55,920 basically ended up outsourcing the writing part today, yeah, 415 00:23:55,920 --> 00:23:59,200 like automating that part and just became, you know, editors 416 00:23:59,200 --> 00:24:01,680 doing the stuff they hate and then the coder, same story. 417 00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:05,440 Like they enjoy actually the coding tasks, like they enjoy 418 00:24:05,440 --> 00:24:08,000 writing code and now they just have to debug. 419 00:24:08,120 --> 00:24:11,480 And you could say what more quote UN quote value adding 420 00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:14,800 they've output maybe has increased, but it basically like 421 00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:18,240 drifted to this point where just doing the least enjoyable part 422 00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:19,680 of the task that they usually do. 423 00:24:20,360 --> 00:24:23,240 Yeah, this is all absolutely fascinating to me. 424 00:24:23,240 --> 00:24:25,120 And obviously as a writer, it's something that I'm thinking 425 00:24:25,120 --> 00:24:27,640 about all the time. I don't have the ability to 426 00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:31,480 foretell which human work is going to sort of remain. 427 00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:34,120 I mean, these predictions about how we're going to not need to 428 00:24:34,120 --> 00:24:36,320 do anything, we can just lie around and do nothing have been 429 00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:39,640 made for many decades now. Of course what happens is that 430 00:24:39,640 --> 00:24:45,240 there's something valuable about human work in a lot of contexts, 431 00:24:45,320 --> 00:24:48,120 specifically that it is humans interacting with humans. 432 00:24:48,560 --> 00:24:51,840 So there's this issue that comes up a lot in these arguments just 433 00:24:51,840 --> 00:24:53,480 in sort of social media online spaces. 434 00:24:53,480 --> 00:24:58,160 I don't mean in sort of more specialist context where 435 00:24:58,520 --> 00:25:02,400 somebody will say, like, oh, AI could never write a novel as 436 00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:04,040 beautiful as a novel by Jane Austen. 437 00:25:04,040 --> 00:25:07,640 And then someone else will come in and say, oh, you're so naive. 438 00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:08,920 It's ridiculous. Of course it will. 439 00:25:08,920 --> 00:25:10,760 It's days or weeks away and maybe it's already done it. 440 00:25:10,760 --> 00:25:14,560 You know, Sam Altman come with his, you know, AI generated 441 00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:16,360 short story. And I'm sitting there feeling 442 00:25:16,360 --> 00:25:20,160 like, am I getting crazy here? Because a central part of what 443 00:25:20,160 --> 00:25:24,480 gives a novel written by a human its value is not that it reached 444 00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:28,480 a certain level of technical skill that an AI could surely 445 00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:34,080 emulate, but that it was written by a conscious emoting 446 00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:37,720 sensibility. And I am a conscious emoting 447 00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:41,440 sensibility too. And in that connection, there is 448 00:25:41,440 --> 00:25:46,240 a relationship which they can't be unless you want to argue that 449 00:25:47,080 --> 00:25:51,720 the LLMS are sentient, which is a pretty radical position to 450 00:25:51,720 --> 00:25:53,680 take. And even then, you'd have to 451 00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:55,880 argue that they were sentient in some sort of vaguely similar to 452 00:25:55,880 --> 00:25:58,600 us way. So, you know, this especially 453 00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:01,280 comes up in context of writing, comes up when people talking 454 00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:04,880 about therapy as a sort of leading use case for AII don't 455 00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:06,640 necessarily say that can be useless. 456 00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:10,040 But it's like, if what therapy is intimately connected with the 457 00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:13,200 idea of having another person hold you in their mind, which, 458 00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:15,600 you know, in the traditional versions of therapy, it really 459 00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:19,560 is, Well, then there can't be therapy with an AI, right? 460 00:26:19,560 --> 00:26:23,000 Because it's conscious beings connecting to each other. 461 00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:25,560 That doesn't mean the market's going to reward any of this, of 462 00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:27,560 course, right? Maybe people don't care about 463 00:26:27,560 --> 00:26:29,240 that their therapist doesn't exist. 464 00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:31,680 But I think it's important to keep focused on the sense in 465 00:26:31,680 --> 00:26:34,680 which there isn't a relationship in all these contexts. 466 00:26:35,520 --> 00:26:38,400 Taking the counter argument to this is that, well, if it passes 467 00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:42,920 the Turing test around, like if you read the story and it hits 468 00:26:42,920 --> 00:26:45,080 you emotionally where you're like, wow, this is such a 469 00:26:45,080 --> 00:26:48,400 meaningful story and then realize it was written by AI, 470 00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:51,240 doesn't really matter. You know, you had that 471 00:26:51,240 --> 00:26:52,880 experience, you had the same emotion. 472 00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:56,960 Doesn't matter if Jane Austen or Jane Boston, and I'm trying to 473 00:26:56,960 --> 00:26:58,160 come up with some bot name for Jane. 474 00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:00,920 Yeah, it's an interesting counterpoint. 475 00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:03,080 And there seems to be a range in my intuitions anyway. 476 00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:07,000 Like I can't pretend that I care if I find out that the technical 477 00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:10,880 instructions for how to use my new dishwasher were written in 478 00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:14,080 that way. But you know, if, well, this is 479 00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:16,920 sort of related to an example I have used in something I wrote 480 00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:20,800 before. Like if at the end of this call 481 00:27:21,120 --> 00:27:24,560 I was to discover that in fact you had not really been there, 482 00:27:24,560 --> 00:27:28,080 but it would have been a sort of brilliant cloned simulation 483 00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:31,160 based on sort of scouring all your previous output and 484 00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:35,480 podcasts and things like the idea that nothing would really 485 00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:38,720 have been lost there is completely crazy to me, right? 486 00:27:38,720 --> 00:27:41,480 It would make no sense to say, well, I had an interesting time 487 00:27:41,680 --> 00:27:44,280 and I had some thought provoking ideas which I have had. 488 00:27:44,440 --> 00:27:47,880 But like, that's not enough. What's happening is that some 489 00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:52,040 people are connecting to each other, and on some level it's 490 00:27:52,040 --> 00:27:56,160 based on my assumption that, you know, what's going on inside 491 00:27:56,160 --> 00:28:00,920 your minds is broadly similar to the kind of thing that's going 492 00:28:00,920 --> 00:28:04,040 on inside my mind, rather than that there's nobody there. 493 00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:08,200 One thing that I think I had that experience around like what 494 00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:11,560 you described, like way before I interacted, Yeah, it was 495 00:28:11,560 --> 00:28:15,920 actually when I realized that most non fiction books 496 00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:19,400 specifically, or maybe not most, but a lot of them are ghost 497 00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:22,360 written. So you have some person who's on 498 00:28:22,360 --> 00:28:26,120 the picture of the book as like this thought leader, but the 499 00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:28,240 publisher. In all political books. 500 00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:31,520 Yeah, All Political has kind of pulled the strings with like, 501 00:28:31,520 --> 00:28:34,200 OK, we've signed you on to be the cover of this thing because 502 00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:37,400 you have a good kind of profile and we have some ghost writers 503 00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:39,960 that can help you like make it nice and neat and get your 504 00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:43,480 message across the audience. They don't really need to know 505 00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:46,120 that. And so I'm curious to hear 506 00:28:46,120 --> 00:28:48,120 what's your take on this context, because I think this 507 00:28:48,120 --> 00:28:51,600 comes up a lot when it comes to AI, where we can have this 508 00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:55,640 discussion and we can kind of say AI is bad in some ways. 509 00:28:55,640 --> 00:28:58,440 But then you look at the human counterfactual sometimes, you 510 00:28:58,440 --> 00:29:01,800 know, like, well, is ghost writing that much better, for 511 00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:04,160 example? Yeah, that's fascinating. 512 00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:06,400 And I think ghost writing sometimes isn't that much 513 00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:09,120 better. I think there is a real art to 514 00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:12,880 really good ghostwriting, which is probably more than just 515 00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:14,280 ghostwriting. It's actually sort of 516 00:29:14,280 --> 00:29:16,480 interviewing and drawing out of subject. 517 00:29:17,320 --> 00:29:20,880 I forget his name, but the guy who's the writer of the book 518 00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:23,120 called Life, it's called Life by Keith Richards. 519 00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:27,600 Like that's a brilliant book. And that's only because a real 520 00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:29,480 skill is used. And probably the biggest skill 521 00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:32,280 is this relational one, right, of like hours of chatting with 522 00:29:32,280 --> 00:29:35,800 Keith Richards, the Elton John 1, driven by former colleague of 523 00:29:35,800 --> 00:29:38,960 mine, Guardian, and I think is another one of those. 524 00:29:39,080 --> 00:29:42,760 But yeah, absolutely, there are contexts where once you discover 525 00:29:42,760 --> 00:29:46,280 that's what happened, you basically feel like scammed. 526 00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:49,000 And that wasn't the experience and you thought that you were 527 00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:51,320 hearing something. And I've definitely had 528 00:29:51,320 --> 00:29:53,560 journalistic colleagues who've interviewed celebrities on the 529 00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:56,600 occasion of the publication of their autobiography, where it's 530 00:29:56,760 --> 00:29:59,520 unclear if the celebrity has read their own autobiography. 531 00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:02,200 Oh no. I'll name their names. 532 00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:06,320 So yeah, something there is lost because again, I think again and 533 00:30:06,320 --> 00:30:09,680 again, and I feel more and more convinced of this with every 534 00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:14,160 passing month really. Like the thing that matters is 535 00:30:14,160 --> 00:30:19,640 always relational in some way. And yes, if something is 536 00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:24,240 ghostwritten in a way that feels like it violates a relationship, 537 00:30:24,920 --> 00:30:27,920 then something is deeply lost. And I think in the other 538 00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:30,160 examples we've been discussing about discussing like where 539 00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:33,320 isn't a problem are those contexts where there's no sort 540 00:30:33,320 --> 00:30:35,840 of expectation, you don't feel that you're in a relationship 541 00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:39,560 with another sensibility in the dishwasher instructions. 542 00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:42,520 The fact that this could get a lot worse with AI doesn't mean 543 00:30:42,520 --> 00:30:47,600 it's not already a problem. So another thing that is already 544 00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:51,920 or was already a pre AI problem that seems to be very much 545 00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:55,480 exacerbated by AI is information overload. 546 00:30:55,480 --> 00:30:58,640 So there's just, you know, a million things you could do, a 547 00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:00,680 million things that you could read out there. 548 00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:02,200 Reading is my particular problem. 549 00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:05,560 So I tend to kind of focus on that, you know, my to read list 550 00:31:05,560 --> 00:31:10,920 of like thousands of tabs, like links that I've saved everywhere 551 00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:16,800 now, both with AI generated content, where content is just 552 00:31:16,800 --> 00:31:21,120 created much more quickly. But also with, you know, for 553 00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:24,640 example, recommender systems that can serve you up content 554 00:31:24,640 --> 00:31:28,600 more efficiently and perhaps creating a better match with the 555 00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:32,160 kinds of things that you like to read or watch or consume in 556 00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:34,840 whatever way that it is. How should we deal with this 557 00:31:34,840 --> 00:31:39,280 version of AI intruding our lives in the information 558 00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:43,640 consumption area? The problem it feels worse than 559 00:31:43,640 --> 00:31:46,080 it ever was because even before I had because we are just 560 00:31:46,080 --> 00:31:51,240 connected to so many pieces of writing, so many other forms of 561 00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:54,000 content, but they find us in a way that they previously 562 00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:55,320 wouldn't. And I've written about this 563 00:31:55,840 --> 00:32:01,360 funny moment in the earlier history of social Internet when 564 00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:06,280 it was sincerely believed by some kind of leading people that 565 00:32:06,280 --> 00:32:09,440 this problem would go away because the filters would get 566 00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:12,960 better and better, right? So you take this kind of huge, 567 00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:17,480 you know, all these haystacks and you just have a way of just 568 00:32:17,480 --> 00:32:19,640 picking out the needles that really mattered to you. 569 00:32:19,640 --> 00:32:21,880 And you could forget all the rest. 570 00:32:23,080 --> 00:32:25,520 But I quote in the book, I quote Nicholas Carr, the technology 571 00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:28,160 critic, pointing out that the exact opposite has happened. 572 00:32:28,280 --> 00:32:30,760 If the supply of incoming information is effectively 573 00:32:30,760 --> 00:32:32,920 infinite, then when filters get better, all that happens is this 574 00:32:32,920 --> 00:32:38,680 kind of massive amount of pure distilled stuff that you want, 575 00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:40,080 right? The problem is, he puts it is 576 00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:42,560 not finding a needle in a haystack, but how to deal with 577 00:32:42,680 --> 00:32:48,200 haystack sized piles of needles. And I'm finding this with sub 578 00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:54,160 stack notes at the moment, like if an algorithm is broadly 579 00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:56,760 benign is at least it seems to be at this stage in the 580 00:32:56,840 --> 00:32:59,600 commercial history of sub stack, what's going to happen? 581 00:32:59,760 --> 00:33:02,640 The more it learns about me is the more I'm just deluged with 582 00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:05,320 things where I think like, oh, I really need to read that. 583 00:33:06,440 --> 00:33:07,960 So the filter has got a lot better. 584 00:33:07,960 --> 00:33:11,520 And the result is the overload has got worse. 585 00:33:12,600 --> 00:33:16,160 In terms of what to do about this, I mean, this is 1 version 586 00:33:16,160 --> 00:33:19,400 of the same sort of move that I'm always recommending, which 587 00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:23,640 is that one has to sort of gradually reorient from thinking 588 00:33:23,640 --> 00:33:27,880 of these supplies of information as things you're supposed to get 589 00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:32,240 through, get on top of, deal with and think of them as things 590 00:33:32,240 --> 00:33:34,800 that we exist in the midst of and get to pick from. 591 00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:38,400 So the metaphor I use at that point in that book is, you know, 592 00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:43,000 seeing your to read piles as a river rather than a bucket, 593 00:33:43,160 --> 00:33:44,520 right? Not something that fills up and 594 00:33:44,520 --> 00:33:47,720 then it's your job to empty it, but it's something that just 595 00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:51,120 sort of flows past you and you pluck things from it that seem 596 00:33:51,120 --> 00:33:54,400 sort of interesting and you let the others go. 597 00:33:55,280 --> 00:33:57,960 I'm enough of a kind of person who would like to get on top of 598 00:33:57,960 --> 00:33:59,560 everything and process everything that I find this 599 00:33:59,560 --> 00:34:04,480 hard, but I've now pretty much got to the point with the sort 600 00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:09,520 of read it later app that I use. It's called Matter. 601 00:34:10,159 --> 00:34:12,679 Everyone downloading this being like this is going to be a 602 00:34:12,679 --> 00:34:14,760 solution. So yeah, I'm not paid for by 603 00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:17,480 them. It's a very pleasant for me, 604 00:34:17,840 --> 00:34:20,159 sort of user experience. But like, it isn't pleasant if 605 00:34:20,159 --> 00:34:23,560 what you do when you go to your queue is think, Oh my gosh, like 606 00:34:23,560 --> 00:34:25,560 there's 70 things here and I got to get through them. 607 00:34:26,480 --> 00:34:29,679 Only 70. Oh yeah, whatever, 700 and I 608 00:34:29,679 --> 00:34:34,800 have just about got to the point with that now where actually 609 00:34:35,120 --> 00:34:38,320 that's changed. What I now think when I open up 610 00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:43,920 that queue is like, look at this amazing abundance of stuff that 611 00:34:43,920 --> 00:34:46,440 I get to sort of play in for a while. 612 00:34:46,440 --> 00:34:50,719 And maybe I'll try to give it an hour of my time every few days 613 00:34:50,719 --> 00:34:53,199 or every day and that'll be that. 614 00:34:53,199 --> 00:34:56,520 And sure, if I read something and take some notes on it and 615 00:34:56,520 --> 00:34:58,400 then I think like I've done that, I will archive it. 616 00:34:58,640 --> 00:35:02,680 But a lot of those things just stick around and I'm biased 617 00:35:02,680 --> 00:35:05,120 towards the more recent ones, which is appropriate because 618 00:35:05,120 --> 00:35:07,880 they reflect the things I'm more interested in now. 619 00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:11,200 And like, there's no problem there, except the one in my head 620 00:35:11,200 --> 00:35:15,400 that says if there is a digital queue of items is in existence 621 00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:17,920 somewhere, it's my job to make it go away. 622 00:35:18,840 --> 00:35:24,600 Yeah, very hard to do that. Yeah, I've felt so naive so many 623 00:35:24,600 --> 00:35:26,320 times. Let's say Twitter, and I started 624 00:35:26,320 --> 00:35:29,520 to collect bookmarks and I realized, OK, these are building 625 00:35:29,520 --> 00:35:32,120 up and I'm not really reading them. 626 00:35:32,120 --> 00:35:34,800 And then I download something like Pocket or what you 627 00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:36,520 described, and I start saving them there. 628 00:35:37,120 --> 00:35:41,160 And then I started on LinkedIn and I started like, oh, I can 629 00:35:41,160 --> 00:35:43,920 save some stuff here as well. And for some reason, my brain 630 00:35:44,520 --> 00:35:48,480 has this hope that like, well, this time it's going to work. 631 00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:51,360 Like this time I'm going to get through it all and like, just 632 00:35:51,360 --> 00:35:54,000 give myself a clean slate. Like, now I'm going to, like, 633 00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:55,760 actually be able to stay on top of it. 634 00:35:55,760 --> 00:36:00,360 And I think, yeah, that kind of what you describe of the river. 635 00:36:00,560 --> 00:36:03,880 And, yeah, as a Swedish person, I see That's like a smorgasbord 636 00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:05,320 of sort of like that I've collected. 637 00:36:05,360 --> 00:36:06,880 Yeah. Perfect. 638 00:36:07,080 --> 00:36:09,920 The other part of it I sometimes think, is that I'm almost saving 639 00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:12,720 things for later in order to never return to them as well, 640 00:36:12,720 --> 00:36:14,800 right? There's almost like I'm sitting 641 00:36:14,800 --> 00:36:18,480 there writing something and then I end up reading some little 642 00:36:18,760 --> 00:36:21,080 thread somewhere or a post somewhere that maybe it triggers 643 00:36:21,080 --> 00:36:22,640 something in my mind. I think that's interesting. 644 00:36:22,920 --> 00:36:28,080 Then comes the thought, like I have got to absorb this into my 645 00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:31,960 note taking system into my second brain, whatever my 646 00:36:31,960 --> 00:36:34,440 personal knowledge management system such as it is. 647 00:36:35,520 --> 00:36:39,040 So then I click save for later and it's like noticing a thought 648 00:36:39,040 --> 00:36:40,520 in meditation. You're like, OK, let go of it. 649 00:36:40,520 --> 00:36:42,120 It's gone. And then it's like I can get on 650 00:36:42,120 --> 00:36:45,440 with the thing I was doing. I have encountered this idea in 651 00:36:45,440 --> 00:36:47,200 a little way and I probably I'll never see it again. 652 00:36:47,200 --> 00:36:50,280 OK, fine. And even in that moment, you 653 00:36:50,280 --> 00:36:52,440 know you're not going to return to it. 654 00:36:52,480 --> 00:36:55,600 I mean, I don't know. No, obviously, as I say, I'm a 655 00:36:55,600 --> 00:36:58,240 work in progress. I certainly do get to thinking, 656 00:36:58,240 --> 00:37:01,280 well, you know, that's great. I'm really going to make sure I 657 00:37:01,280 --> 00:37:03,600 look at that when I've got more time and energy. 658 00:37:04,160 --> 00:37:06,920 Of course, the counter argument, a really sort of Taoist way to 659 00:37:06,920 --> 00:37:09,800 approach this or something might be to be to stop there and to be 660 00:37:09,800 --> 00:37:12,640 like, OK, something has seized my interest so I will read it 661 00:37:12,640 --> 00:37:14,000 now. But I think that is just not 662 00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:17,360 very practical given the amount of this stuff. 663 00:37:17,360 --> 00:37:21,240 So what I have had some success doing myself is trying quite 664 00:37:21,240 --> 00:37:25,000 consciously to sort of nominate portions of time, right? 665 00:37:25,000 --> 00:37:29,040 Not I will process all my read it later things, but I will 666 00:37:29,040 --> 00:37:34,480 spend 90 minutes two or three times this week like swimming in 667 00:37:34,480 --> 00:37:39,440 that sea of ideas and writing, not trying to drink it all down. 668 00:37:39,680 --> 00:37:42,080 Yeah. So related to this, I think 669 00:37:42,640 --> 00:37:47,680 there's something around AI which brings this promise around 670 00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:50,600 kind of summarizing and distilling the most important 671 00:37:50,600 --> 00:37:53,600 part of something into it's kind of like most important essence. 672 00:37:53,600 --> 00:37:59,080 And I think we've lived through some of this version called pre 673 00:37:59,080 --> 00:38:01,560 AI in terms of this being the services, they say, hey, you 674 00:38:01,560 --> 00:38:03,800 know, read a book. Who has time for that? 675 00:38:03,880 --> 00:38:07,520 Here's a 10 minute summary. And as you alluded to, selling 676 00:38:07,520 --> 00:38:11,520 this idea that like, you know, you can absorb all of that 677 00:38:11,520 --> 00:38:15,080 benefit from that book in 10 minutes of of a book a day. 678 00:38:15,080 --> 00:38:17,800 You're not like that's the equivalent of reading the whole 679 00:38:17,800 --> 00:38:21,920 book in some way. And that is obviously, I think 680 00:38:21,920 --> 00:38:23,800 you would agree like a false promise. 681 00:38:23,840 --> 00:38:27,040 And that part, like the absorbing of knowledge from a 682 00:38:27,040 --> 00:38:30,440 book, is not just squeezing out the highlights and being like, 683 00:38:30,440 --> 00:38:32,480 OK, that's the benefit. No, right? 684 00:38:32,920 --> 00:38:37,560 But as someone who hoards research articles, sometimes the 685 00:38:37,560 --> 00:38:40,400 point of the research articles, not to get the incredible 686 00:38:40,400 --> 00:38:43,600 enjoyment of reading the research article, but just to 687 00:38:43,920 --> 00:38:46,640 know the findings so that you can apply it to your work. 688 00:38:47,080 --> 00:38:50,440 And so that's where I I'm kind of torn on these summarizer 689 00:38:50,440 --> 00:38:54,520 tools because I do very much see an upside in distilling a 690 00:38:54,520 --> 00:38:56,080 research article to its main points. 691 00:38:56,280 --> 00:39:00,920 Of course, the downside is, you know, the AI summarizer tool 692 00:39:00,920 --> 00:39:04,240 doesn't think critically about the methods or the findings. 693 00:39:04,360 --> 00:39:08,200 It doesn't even have the ability at this point to tell you 694 00:39:08,200 --> 00:39:10,320 whether you should trust the research or not. 695 00:39:10,560 --> 00:39:13,560 And so you're not so much deprived of the enjoyment of 696 00:39:13,560 --> 00:39:16,640 reading it, but maybe the ability to critically analyze 697 00:39:16,640 --> 00:39:20,520 it. And so that's where I land on 698 00:39:20,520 --> 00:39:26,200 the like pluses and the minuses of AI summarizer tools, both in 699 00:39:26,200 --> 00:39:29,560 terms of the experience of reading it as well, but even the 700 00:39:29,560 --> 00:39:32,240 outcome that you get from it. Yeah, yeah. 701 00:39:32,240 --> 00:39:35,040 And I mean, I was just going to say even you made a better 702 00:39:35,040 --> 00:39:36,440 version of this point with the research papers. 703 00:39:36,600 --> 00:39:38,720 Of course, there are professional context where like 704 00:39:40,120 --> 00:39:42,480 a sort of broadly objective summary of what's in the 705 00:39:42,480 --> 00:39:48,480 document is a thing that you can greatly benefit from in your 706 00:39:48,480 --> 00:39:49,800 role reading that research paper. 707 00:39:49,800 --> 00:39:52,000 Obviously, there is something else going on which is missing 708 00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:54,600 in the summarization, which is the critical assessment of how 709 00:39:54,600 --> 00:39:58,160 it was, of how it was produced and whether it's trustworthy. 710 00:39:58,400 --> 00:40:00,800 And I mean, I think what that comes down to again is like to 711 00:40:00,800 --> 00:40:03,440 the extent that I have let these tools into my writing life, it 712 00:40:03,440 --> 00:40:09,560 is the sort of glorified search engine part of this where I 713 00:40:09,560 --> 00:40:13,400 think it is very useful as a jumping off point in the same 714 00:40:13,400 --> 00:40:15,760 way that is book summarizing services, I mean. 715 00:40:17,280 --> 00:40:20,640 Cal Newport, who's work I admire a lot, you know, always used to 716 00:40:20,640 --> 00:40:24,760 always says, you know, that they are ideal as the way to sort of 717 00:40:26,120 --> 00:40:29,360 reach a judgement about which book to then go and read in full 718 00:40:29,640 --> 00:40:31,880 without tricking yourself that you're going to know all about 719 00:40:31,880 --> 00:40:34,400 it. There are so many problems with 720 00:40:34,400 --> 00:40:37,760 the idea that you should just give up reading books because of 721 00:40:37,760 --> 00:40:41,240 summarize, some because of summarization services. 722 00:40:41,560 --> 00:40:43,760 And I'm not even getting to the point of like how any books are 723 00:40:43,760 --> 00:40:45,960 going to be produced for these summarization services if 724 00:40:46,240 --> 00:40:48,040 nobody's buying the books. Separate question. 725 00:40:48,720 --> 00:40:51,800 Firstly, maybe not certain kinds of professional reading, but for 726 00:40:51,800 --> 00:40:54,720 a lot of reading anyway, like the reading is the point. 727 00:40:55,200 --> 00:40:58,880 And this is like just the old speed reading myth, right? 728 00:40:59,160 --> 00:41:01,840 Sam's a big speed reader. OK, we'll talk about that in a 729 00:41:01,840 --> 00:41:03,280 moment. If you want to challenge me on 730 00:41:03,320 --> 00:41:08,520 calling speed reading a myth, but also like, you know, when I 731 00:41:08,560 --> 00:41:12,520 read a book and certain things stick with me and I maybe use 732 00:41:12,520 --> 00:41:15,320 that to trigger other ideas, maybe I'll quote the book in a 733 00:41:15,600 --> 00:41:17,720 subsequent piece of my own writing. 734 00:41:17,880 --> 00:41:22,400 Like I'm the one who gets to say what salient and important a 735 00:41:22,400 --> 00:41:27,160 summary of what AI thinks the author thinks is most important. 736 00:41:27,520 --> 00:41:31,120 It's sort of beside the point. I feel quite strongly in terms 737 00:41:31,120 --> 00:41:35,680 of even, you know, pre AI note taking unless you're studying a 738 00:41:35,680 --> 00:41:37,640 specific work for a university exam. 739 00:41:37,640 --> 00:41:39,760 When it be your job to regurgitate what's in the book 740 00:41:40,040 --> 00:41:42,880 like doesn't, your job is not to try and make a summary of what 741 00:41:42,880 --> 00:41:45,360 the author was trying to deal with. 742 00:41:45,360 --> 00:41:49,440 It's like to figure out which bits kind of trigger interesting 743 00:41:50,040 --> 00:41:54,160 sparks in your own minds. I'm sure I could think of 100 744 00:41:54,160 --> 00:41:57,800 books I've read where I can tell the thing I really remember from 745 00:41:57,800 --> 00:42:00,520 that is X. Who knows if the author thought 746 00:42:00,520 --> 00:42:01,800 that was a particularly important thing. 747 00:42:01,800 --> 00:42:03,960 I've had that experience myself as an author. 748 00:42:03,960 --> 00:42:06,160 People say, like, I think the thing that really stuck with me 749 00:42:06,160 --> 00:42:09,240 from your book was like, and then I have to think, oh, yeah, 750 00:42:09,240 --> 00:42:10,440 I did put that in, didn't I? Right. 751 00:42:10,440 --> 00:42:12,280 But it just wasn't particularly salient to me. 752 00:42:12,400 --> 00:42:15,240 Yeah, yeah. Yeah, And can you just make a 753 00:42:15,240 --> 00:42:17,840 correction? I am a maybe speed listener more 754 00:42:17,840 --> 00:42:20,120 so than a reader. I'm pretty slow when it comes to 755 00:42:20,120 --> 00:42:24,600 reading, but audiobooks I have a pretty high speed. 756 00:42:25,880 --> 00:42:29,200 I guess I'm not deeply opposed to high speed audio, but 757 00:42:29,200 --> 00:42:32,200 listening my son, who's 8, is just getting into audiobooks, 758 00:42:32,200 --> 00:42:34,840 which I think is a very wonderfully wholesome form of 759 00:42:34,880 --> 00:42:37,000 engagement with digital technology compared to what he 760 00:42:37,000 --> 00:42:40,680 could be doing at the moment. I'm still making some effort to 761 00:42:40,680 --> 00:42:45,480 kind of dissuade him from listening to them very quickly. 762 00:42:45,480 --> 00:42:49,840 I feel like that could train his attention in ways that, I mean, 763 00:42:49,840 --> 00:42:51,680 you know, I'll have no power over the question anyway, to the 764 00:42:51,680 --> 00:42:54,000 extent that as parents we make these vague attempts. 765 00:42:54,480 --> 00:42:57,560 When I grew up, I actually was in your son's position of like 766 00:42:57,560 --> 00:43:01,680 my mom would rent these cassette tapes from the local library 767 00:43:01,680 --> 00:43:05,400 basically. And the benefit of that time was 768 00:43:05,400 --> 00:43:07,360 the cassettes you can't really play at higher speeds. 769 00:43:07,360 --> 00:43:13,240 So when she had busy things to do and she wanted me to, I don't 770 00:43:13,360 --> 00:43:15,840 know, not bother her, she would like, put on an audio book and 771 00:43:15,840 --> 00:43:17,720 give him some Lego. And then she would, like, know 772 00:43:17,720 --> 00:43:20,320 that I would be happy for a good amount of time. 773 00:43:20,920 --> 00:43:23,880 But yeah, I had a benefit of not being able to speed up at that 774 00:43:23,880 --> 00:43:27,000 point. Yeah, there are lots of 775 00:43:27,000 --> 00:43:30,440 downsides to the addition of convenience, Yeah. 776 00:43:31,520 --> 00:43:35,440 Because reading, as you say, is a present moment activity, 777 00:43:36,040 --> 00:43:37,760 right? That's one of my takeaways from 778 00:43:37,760 --> 00:43:40,880 you that I have to remember. I'm not just trying to 779 00:43:40,880 --> 00:43:43,680 accumulate the knowledge for some future use. 780 00:43:43,720 --> 00:43:47,600 I need to actually absorb it now and understand it now and get 781 00:43:47,600 --> 00:43:50,440 the value out of it as I am reading it. 782 00:43:50,560 --> 00:43:52,520 And this is obviously a point that generalizes to the whole of 783 00:43:52,520 --> 00:43:54,520 life, right? The point of life is not all 784 00:43:54,520 --> 00:43:57,840 about where you are headed to or where you're going to get. 785 00:43:58,600 --> 00:44:02,800 It's incredibly easy to live as if it is, but there has to be 786 00:44:02,800 --> 00:44:08,920 some meaning to the doing of it. Now, I mean, there are some 787 00:44:08,920 --> 00:44:11,640 forms of reading that of course, we're only doing instrumentally 788 00:44:11,640 --> 00:44:15,080 in order to achieve certain goals, but it makes it 789 00:44:15,080 --> 00:44:17,560 impossible for there to be such a thing as the pleasures of 790 00:44:17,560 --> 00:44:21,160 reading, I would say, if it's completely focused on a future 791 00:44:21,160 --> 00:44:23,360 point of meaning that you're working towards. 792 00:44:24,600 --> 00:44:28,880 So that actually is the perfect segue into our last main 793 00:44:28,880 --> 00:44:32,440 question, which is all about designing and in particular, 794 00:44:32,440 --> 00:44:35,680 behavioral design for your present self versus your future 795 00:44:35,680 --> 00:44:37,960 self. And if you'll allow me, since 796 00:44:37,960 --> 00:44:40,280 you write about this so beautifully, I would love to 797 00:44:40,280 --> 00:44:43,080 just read a little bit from Meditations for Mortals. 798 00:44:43,440 --> 00:44:48,280 OK, OK, so you say if there's a single truth at the heart of the 799 00:44:48,280 --> 00:44:52,280 imperfectionist outlook, it's that this here and now is real 800 00:44:52,280 --> 00:44:53,560 life. This is it. 801 00:44:53,840 --> 00:44:56,840 This portion of your limited time, the part before you've 802 00:44:56,840 --> 00:44:59,440 managed to get on top of everything, or dealt with your 803 00:44:59,440 --> 00:45:02,560 procrastination problem, or graduated or found a partner, or 804 00:45:02,560 --> 00:45:07,040 retired, and before the survival of democracy, Hopefully that's 805 00:45:07,040 --> 00:45:10,360 my addition or the climate have been secured. 806 00:45:10,520 --> 00:45:13,800 This part matters just as much as any other, and arguably even 807 00:45:13,800 --> 00:45:16,680 more than any other since the past is gone and the future 808 00:45:16,680 --> 00:45:19,080 hasn't occurred yet. So right now is the only time 809 00:45:19,080 --> 00:45:21,600 that really exists. If instead you take the other 810 00:45:21,600 --> 00:45:25,200 approach, if you see all of this as leading up to some future 811 00:45:25,200 --> 00:45:29,080 point when real life will begin, or when you can finally start 812 00:45:29,080 --> 00:45:31,920 enjoying yourself or feeling good about yourself, then you'll 813 00:45:31,920 --> 00:45:34,480 end up treating your actual life as something to get through 814 00:45:34,720 --> 00:45:37,800 until one day it'll be over without the meaningful part of 815 00:45:37,800 --> 00:45:41,160 ever having arrived. We have to show up as fully as 816 00:45:41,160 --> 00:45:44,320 possible here in the swim of things as they are. 817 00:45:46,080 --> 00:45:51,000 So this, to me as a behavioral scientist, is extremely 818 00:45:51,480 --> 00:45:55,600 interesting. And I feel like it's fraught 819 00:45:55,600 --> 00:46:00,680 with complexity because so much of my time is spent trying to 820 00:46:00,680 --> 00:46:03,560 help people help their future selves. 821 00:46:03,560 --> 00:46:07,840 So, you know, saving for retirement, exercising now to be 822 00:46:07,840 --> 00:46:12,240 healthy, you know, all of the things that benefit their future 823 00:46:12,240 --> 00:46:14,080 selves. And this is because of all of 824 00:46:14,080 --> 00:46:17,240 the problems within our society that have come about for people, 825 00:46:17,480 --> 00:46:20,400 you know, not moving enough, not eating well, not taking their 826 00:46:20,400 --> 00:46:22,440 medication, not saving, and so on. 827 00:46:23,400 --> 00:46:28,680 And so I feel this real tension between whether I should be 828 00:46:28,720 --> 00:46:33,400 designing for people's future selves or current selves and how 829 00:46:33,400 --> 00:46:36,480 to kind of bring these two perspectives together because I 830 00:46:36,480 --> 00:46:39,520 do very much believe that it's important for us to set our 831 00:46:39,520 --> 00:46:43,200 future selves up for success. And I'm also fully bought into 832 00:46:43,720 --> 00:46:46,280 your lessons about living in the moment. 833 00:46:46,280 --> 00:46:48,880 And you know this amazing passage of that I've just read 834 00:46:49,960 --> 00:46:52,400 what to do. Yeah, no, it's really 835 00:46:52,400 --> 00:46:54,000 interesting because of course, yeah, right. 836 00:46:55,280 --> 00:46:59,040 I also am attempting to make sensible decisions with money 837 00:46:59,040 --> 00:47:01,720 with regard to retirement and all the rest of it. 838 00:47:01,960 --> 00:47:06,080 And I also struggle as much as anybody with kind of, yeah, 839 00:47:06,160 --> 00:47:07,640 exercise is the obvious one, right? 840 00:47:07,640 --> 00:47:09,480 Like doing something that I don't particularly feel like 841 00:47:09,480 --> 00:47:12,360 doing right now because I feel like it's going to be useful 842 00:47:12,520 --> 00:47:14,720 later on. So I mean, it's just a couple of 843 00:47:14,720 --> 00:47:15,880 strands. I'm not sure I have a sort of 844 00:47:15,880 --> 00:47:19,040 neat answer to resolve all this. Obviously, on some level, it's 845 00:47:19,040 --> 00:47:21,160 both. I think there are a lot of ways 846 00:47:21,160 --> 00:47:25,400 in which a lot of us spend too much time thinking about our 847 00:47:25,520 --> 00:47:27,200 future selves. And I don't think that 848 00:47:27,880 --> 00:47:30,880 undermines the idea that there are ways in which we definitely 849 00:47:30,880 --> 00:47:33,640 should and which people like you should be helping us to do so. 850 00:47:34,280 --> 00:47:39,040 So, you know, I think an awful lot of sort of project of trying 851 00:47:39,040 --> 00:47:42,400 to change your life, trying to get better habits and all this 852 00:47:42,400 --> 00:47:45,520 is motivated by this idea that there's something sort of both 853 00:47:45,520 --> 00:47:48,880 deeply wrong with you now, but also like deeply provisional 854 00:47:48,880 --> 00:47:52,560 about life now. And the important thing is to 855 00:47:52,560 --> 00:47:55,680 get there. And of course, when you get 856 00:47:55,680 --> 00:47:58,200 there, you're just having the same thoughts about a new future 857 00:47:58,200 --> 00:47:59,760 point. So you're never actually sort of 858 00:47:59,760 --> 00:48:03,480 showing up into life. And I think being aware of that 859 00:48:03,480 --> 00:48:07,640 risk and seeking to find ways to not fall into that problem is 860 00:48:07,640 --> 00:48:12,000 totally compatible with using some of your present moments for 861 00:48:12,640 --> 00:48:17,200 judicious future planning. So it's that sort of specific 862 00:48:17,200 --> 00:48:22,280 quality of until I get there, this isn't really the real life. 863 00:48:22,920 --> 00:48:28,200 And that can actually entail sort of being a bit sort of more 864 00:48:28,200 --> 00:48:32,240 indulgent and gentler towards your present self, making sure 865 00:48:32,240 --> 00:48:34,680 that your present self is actually having a good time. 866 00:48:34,840 --> 00:48:37,520 So maybe all we're doing here, I mean, I hate any kind of 867 00:48:37,520 --> 00:48:40,160 response to this kind of fascinating conundrum that just 868 00:48:40,160 --> 00:48:42,280 ends in a compromise. So maybe we can get further than 869 00:48:42,280 --> 00:48:46,200 that in the time we have left. But like, you know, one sort of 870 00:48:46,200 --> 00:48:49,560 simple response to this is to say, well, you know, we need to 871 00:48:49,560 --> 00:48:51,480 do both of these things. We need to make sure that the 872 00:48:51,480 --> 00:48:56,040 ways in which we are taking care of our future selves don't 873 00:48:56,040 --> 00:49:00,400 become forms of kind of punishment of our present selves 874 00:49:00,400 --> 00:49:04,640 that kind of vacate the meaning from our present selves. 875 00:49:04,920 --> 00:49:10,320 And like, that's a consideration that a behavioral designer can 876 00:49:10,600 --> 00:49:14,520 really do something with. And I think probably some of the 877 00:49:14,520 --> 00:49:17,840 ways that we would say actually are more effective in getting 878 00:49:17,840 --> 00:49:21,400 people to do the things now that will benefit them later are 879 00:49:21,400 --> 00:49:25,240 actually those things that create meaning or are more fun. 880 00:49:25,240 --> 00:49:28,920 So like, just to take your exercise example, like joining a 881 00:49:28,920 --> 00:49:33,280 rock climbing gym with some, you know, other dead buddies of 882 00:49:33,280 --> 00:49:36,520 yours, like that could be something that achieves both of 883 00:49:36,520 --> 00:49:39,040 those goals. And a behavioral designer would 884 00:49:39,040 --> 00:49:42,160 say, like, because this is fun and it's social and, you know, 885 00:49:42,160 --> 00:49:45,480 you have a commitment and you sign up, you put the money down 886 00:49:45,480 --> 00:49:46,520 and you have it on your calendar. 887 00:49:46,520 --> 00:49:49,600 Like all those things combined will make you more likely to 888 00:49:49,600 --> 00:49:51,840 show up and you can enjoy yourself. 889 00:49:52,040 --> 00:49:54,360 So there you see, there we got beyond the compromise into the 890 00:49:54,360 --> 00:49:56,520 synthesis, right? It's like actually these things 891 00:49:56,520 --> 00:50:00,240 are the same thing in some way. And I feel, but it's incredibly 892 00:50:00,880 --> 00:50:03,640 frequently the case with this sort of puzzle, I think. 893 00:50:04,080 --> 00:50:07,200 Yeah, it brings a kind of personal anecdote to mind. 894 00:50:07,240 --> 00:50:15,000 I remember a few years back, I went to visit my dad and I 895 00:50:15,000 --> 00:50:18,680 basically noticed that he was doing the dishes and he didn't 896 00:50:18,680 --> 00:50:21,320 have a dishwasher. And I was like, dad, have you 897 00:50:21,320 --> 00:50:23,000 ever thought about getting a dishwasher? 898 00:50:23,000 --> 00:50:25,400 You know, it's convenient. It will save you time. 899 00:50:25,400 --> 00:50:27,760 You don't have to worry about doing the dishes anymore by 900 00:50:27,760 --> 00:50:30,800 hand. And he was like, why? 901 00:50:31,160 --> 00:50:34,600 I enjoy doing the dishes? And I'm like, did you enjoy 902 00:50:34,600 --> 00:50:37,040 doing the dishes? Who enjoys the dishes? 903 00:50:37,360 --> 00:50:39,200 Yeah. And it said, well, you know, 904 00:50:39,520 --> 00:50:44,160 basically a long time ago I realized that I will have to do 905 00:50:44,160 --> 00:50:47,640 the dishes so often in my life. Like, my future is going to have 906 00:50:47,640 --> 00:50:52,120 so much dishwashing on a daily basis that like, I'm just going 907 00:50:52,120 --> 00:50:53,840 to decide to find a way to enjoy it. 908 00:50:53,880 --> 00:50:58,000 And so he find a way to make dishwashing kind of his daily 909 00:50:58,000 --> 00:51:01,080 meditative kind of practice. And I thought I was very 910 00:51:01,080 --> 00:51:04,920 inspiring to be like, OK, yeah, maybe the dishwasher is 911 00:51:04,920 --> 00:51:07,280 overrated sometimes. I love that example. 912 00:51:08,200 --> 00:51:11,240 It speaks to the fact that what we think we want to eliminate 913 00:51:11,240 --> 00:51:14,160 from our lives, very often there's benefits and not 914 00:51:14,160 --> 00:51:16,160 eliminating it. Yeah. 915 00:51:16,320 --> 00:51:18,000 I think a lot of the conversation today has been 916 00:51:18,000 --> 00:51:24,120 around how we deal with this idea of AI being this kind of 917 00:51:24,400 --> 00:51:28,040 deluxe version of the promise we've had over and over again 918 00:51:28,040 --> 00:51:32,320 around like more efficiency, more effectiveness, more value 919 00:51:32,320 --> 00:51:36,240 creation. And this brings us to that maybe 920 00:51:37,480 --> 00:51:40,920 a section of the podcast we call our Quick Fire Round. 921 00:51:41,120 --> 00:51:45,000 We're going to kind of give you some chances to have your say 922 00:51:45,000 --> 00:51:50,240 about whether various tasks or activity is something that 923 00:51:50,240 --> 00:51:53,240 should be recalled to AI or not to AI. 924 00:51:53,720 --> 00:51:56,400 Basically, is this something that AI should do for us or is 925 00:51:56,400 --> 00:51:59,680 it a should not AI? OK. 926 00:52:00,200 --> 00:52:04,880 All right. First one, automatically trim 927 00:52:04,880 --> 00:52:08,760 your to read list for you by knocking off articles that you 928 00:52:08,760 --> 00:52:12,480 probably will never get around to and don't really need to read 929 00:52:12,520 --> 00:52:15,160 anyway. Oh, that's an interesting 1. 930 00:52:15,160 --> 00:52:17,880 And I would say within reason and within limits, yes, that's a 931 00:52:17,880 --> 00:52:20,480 good one. Not necessarily because I trust 932 00:52:20,840 --> 00:52:24,240 the AI to do a good job of that, but because in the situation 933 00:52:24,240 --> 00:52:28,200 that we're in with regard to our limitations, any trimming of the 934 00:52:28,200 --> 00:52:31,880 to read list is a good thing. And if it was slightly 935 00:52:32,120 --> 00:52:34,160 intelligent and how it was done, great. 936 00:52:34,160 --> 00:52:38,040 But frankly, it could be, you know, virtually arbitrary. 937 00:52:38,040 --> 00:52:40,240 So if everyone thought that what was happening was that it was 938 00:52:40,240 --> 00:52:43,080 being very judiciously done, but actually it was just being, you 939 00:52:43,080 --> 00:52:45,960 know, divided by an arbitrary 50%, that would be just as good. 940 00:52:47,040 --> 00:52:50,840 All right, to AI or not to AI? Invite your friends over for 941 00:52:50,840 --> 00:52:53,320 dinner for you, paying no attention to whether you've 942 00:52:53,320 --> 00:52:55,800 cleaned the house and thought about what you'll eat or not. 943 00:52:56,920 --> 00:53:01,240 Ah, scruffy hospitality. This lovely idea that I got the 944 00:53:01,240 --> 00:53:03,920 chance to write about in the most recent book of sort of 945 00:53:04,360 --> 00:53:07,040 inviting your friends around without making a big 946 00:53:07,360 --> 00:53:10,520 perfectionist song and dance about inviting them. 947 00:53:12,600 --> 00:53:17,840 I'm still going to say no. There's going to be very few 948 00:53:18,680 --> 00:53:21,440 versions of this, AI or not to AI where I'm going to come down 949 00:53:22,240 --> 00:53:31,120 pro AI taking over the sort of real warp and woof of human 950 00:53:31,120 --> 00:53:34,360 relationships. So yeah, I mean, maybe it's OK 951 00:53:34,360 --> 00:53:36,720 if it's just setting up the meal, right? 952 00:53:36,760 --> 00:53:38,600 Because the meal is is really humans. 953 00:53:38,600 --> 00:53:42,080 But I'm still a little bit dubious about that one. 954 00:53:43,840 --> 00:53:46,440 OK, next one to AI or not to AIA? 955 00:53:47,560 --> 00:53:51,360 Real time intervention in times of trouble, for example in the 956 00:53:51,360 --> 00:53:54,880 middle of an argument or a stressful situation to remind 957 00:53:54,880 --> 00:53:58,280 you to enjoy the problems because problems don't go away. 958 00:54:02,560 --> 00:54:06,160 It's basically all these things so far so AI implementations of 959 00:54:07,200 --> 00:54:10,520 what I've been thinking of until this conversation's surely human 960 00:54:10,520 --> 00:54:14,200 challenges. I sort of abstain on this 961 00:54:14,200 --> 00:54:19,800 question because I think that or maybe it's not too AIA problem 962 00:54:19,800 --> 00:54:21,880 that many people. I'm sure you're very familiar 963 00:54:21,880 --> 00:54:24,600 from the behavioral science context, but like, if you have 964 00:54:24,600 --> 00:54:28,520 an app that automatically pings you every single day at the same 965 00:54:28,520 --> 00:54:30,840 time, or even it's a different time to remind you to like write 966 00:54:30,840 --> 00:54:35,560 down something you're grateful for, obviously 99% of users 967 00:54:35,680 --> 00:54:38,560 after three or four days are just ignoring that notification. 968 00:54:38,800 --> 00:54:41,240 And if anyone can ever completely fix that problem, and 969 00:54:41,240 --> 00:54:43,000 maybe you think you have, I don't know, but like if anyone 970 00:54:43,000 --> 00:54:47,120 could fix that sort of adaptation problem, they'd be 971 00:54:47,280 --> 00:54:49,280 very rich because that is something that'll make a huge 972 00:54:49,280 --> 00:54:51,560 difference. Possibly AI could choose its 973 00:54:51,560 --> 00:54:54,480 moment and say the things that would make a more of a 974 00:54:54,480 --> 00:54:57,880 difference and resist some of that phenomenon, but I tend to 975 00:54:57,880 --> 00:55:03,240 think that any kind of automated thing like that and ends by 976 00:55:03,240 --> 00:55:06,520 getting ignored. Maybe it's like a hologram that 977 00:55:06,520 --> 00:55:09,080 appears of your future self. Right. 978 00:55:09,120 --> 00:55:10,360 So you've got these two options, right? 979 00:55:10,880 --> 00:55:13,040 Either it's not very convincingly human and you just 980 00:55:13,320 --> 00:55:15,640 forget about it, or it's very convincing and it's sort of 981 00:55:15,640 --> 00:55:18,000 human qualities. And then that's just really 982 00:55:18,000 --> 00:55:19,880 annoying. I mean, that would just maybe 983 00:55:20,120 --> 00:55:23,080 like that would be like me stepping into like an argument 984 00:55:23,080 --> 00:55:25,800 between like, I don't know, two friends of mine. 985 00:55:25,800 --> 00:55:31,160 That's just obnoxious behavior. It is all right, so you've 986 00:55:31,160 --> 00:55:36,920 convincingly figured out what the theme of our to AI or to not 987 00:55:36,920 --> 00:55:38,400 to AI is, but we're going to keep going. 988 00:55:39,200 --> 00:55:43,200 And the next one is a possibility generator to help 989 00:55:43,200 --> 00:55:45,640 you think through what you could actually do with your time, 990 00:55:45,800 --> 00:55:49,400 including mapping out the consequences of each activity. 991 00:55:50,680 --> 00:55:52,840 Oh, I think that's a great use for AII. 992 00:55:52,840 --> 00:55:56,080 Don't know exactly. I can't quite picture how the 993 00:55:56,080 --> 00:56:01,200 consequences part would work in terms of being right about that. 994 00:56:01,200 --> 00:56:04,880 But in terms of setting out a bunch of prompts, a bunch of 995 00:56:04,880 --> 00:56:07,720 thoughts that you sort of bounce yourself off. 996 00:56:07,800 --> 00:56:13,120 To me, that calls to mind, you know, ancient sort of divination 997 00:56:13,120 --> 00:56:15,960 texts and things like right, the AI Ching or something where we 998 00:56:15,960 --> 00:56:19,320 can or tarot where we can sort of argue about whether there's 999 00:56:19,320 --> 00:56:23,800 some real intelligence in that or if it's just a random idea 1000 00:56:23,800 --> 00:56:26,360 generator. But that can be tremendously 1001 00:56:26,360 --> 00:56:27,640 useful. And if they I could do that, 1002 00:56:27,640 --> 00:56:30,680 well then yeah, absolutely. It could do some probabilistic 1003 00:56:30,680 --> 00:56:33,400 modelling. So like you go on this vacation 1004 00:56:33,400 --> 00:56:36,960 and yeah, you have like a 20% chance of losing your job versus 1005 00:56:36,960 --> 00:56:38,960 yeah, yeah. Yeah, no, that would be a great 1006 00:56:38,960 --> 00:56:43,320 sort of extra addition to those kind of Oracle. 1007 00:56:43,360 --> 00:56:46,800 You know, I mean, it's not so much that, again, I'm keep 1008 00:56:46,800 --> 00:56:48,560 coming back to these ways in which it's like, yeah, maybe 1009 00:56:48,560 --> 00:56:51,120 it's intelligent, but really what it is doing is providing 1010 00:56:51,120 --> 00:56:54,040 you with something that can deepen your own engagement. 1011 00:56:54,240 --> 00:56:56,840 I'll only add one thing, which is that this is actually my 1012 00:56:56,840 --> 00:57:00,120 favorite Oliver ISM. You can do whatever you like, 1013 00:57:00,240 --> 00:57:02,000 you just have to face the consequences. 1014 00:57:02,440 --> 00:57:04,880 This has been the most useful in my personal life. 1015 00:57:05,040 --> 00:57:08,200 Yeah, this is a originally a quote from Sheldon Cop, the 1016 00:57:08,200 --> 00:57:09,680 psychotherapist. You're free to do whatever you 1017 00:57:09,680 --> 00:57:11,440 like. You need to only face the 1018 00:57:11,440 --> 00:57:13,600 consequences. Yeah, anything. 1019 00:57:13,800 --> 00:57:16,680 You're just choosing which problems you want to have. 1020 00:57:16,680 --> 00:57:18,560 That's right. You can go for a walk in the 1021 00:57:18,560 --> 00:57:20,400 middle of the day. You can do it. 1022 00:57:20,760 --> 00:57:23,920 Just do it. Or be willing to pay the price 1023 00:57:23,920 --> 00:57:25,520 of doing it right. Yeah. 1024 00:57:25,760 --> 00:57:27,840 Or yeah, which might be much smaller than you were assuming. 1025 00:57:28,120 --> 00:57:29,760 Usually. Usually it's much smaller. 1026 00:57:29,760 --> 00:57:32,200 That's what I've learned, yeah. OK, I think this one is 1027 00:57:32,200 --> 00:57:35,840 interesting. To AI or not to AIA warning 1028 00:57:35,840 --> 00:57:39,760 system to alert you when you're putting too much effort into 1029 00:57:39,760 --> 00:57:44,360 some arbitrary task? Yeah, I'd be up for that. 1030 00:57:44,520 --> 00:57:47,120 That sounds good. Again, it's interesting to ask 1031 00:57:47,320 --> 00:57:49,960 how you could put that into practice, but if it could, that 1032 00:57:49,960 --> 00:57:53,920 belongs in the long family of kind of biofeedback and all 1033 00:57:53,920 --> 00:57:57,360 those kinds of things that can absolutely have that place. 1034 00:57:57,720 --> 00:58:00,880 Well, the big selling point now with AI is the idea that like, 1035 00:58:00,880 --> 00:58:04,040 give AI your screen. And so the AI is always with you 1036 00:58:04,040 --> 00:58:08,840 on your laptop so that you can, you know, have it there for 1037 00:58:08,840 --> 00:58:10,760 help, have it there for whatever you need. 1038 00:58:11,080 --> 00:58:13,480 And honestly, in that case, you could also see that, you know, 1039 00:58:13,480 --> 00:58:19,160 you've been rewriting the same e-mail over and over again and 1040 00:58:19,160 --> 00:58:21,480 be like, you know, this is OK to half ass like it's not. 1041 00:58:21,920 --> 00:58:25,280 Probably just send it. Yeah, no, that sounds genuinely 1042 00:58:25,560 --> 00:58:27,440 beneficial to me. Wow. 1043 00:58:27,480 --> 00:58:29,840 Do you notice you're coming more and more on board with these as 1044 00:58:29,840 --> 00:58:31,480 we are? You going to become a real 1045 00:58:31,480 --> 00:58:34,520 zealot for technological optimization, yeah. 1046 00:58:35,480 --> 00:58:39,400 All right, next one, keep track of your daily done list so you 1047 00:58:39,400 --> 00:58:42,040 can bask in your many accomplishments such as waking 1048 00:58:42,040 --> 00:58:45,360 up, showering, eating breakfast rather than worrying about your 1049 00:58:45,360 --> 00:58:49,240 looming to do's. Right, referring to the fact 1050 00:58:49,240 --> 00:58:52,000 that I'm a big advocate for done lists and the idea of sort of 1051 00:58:52,000 --> 00:58:55,160 putting things on a list so that you can compare. 1052 00:58:55,480 --> 00:58:58,840 Not just always be comparing what you've done to the universe 1053 00:58:58,840 --> 00:59:01,400 of things left to do, but you can really focus on what you 1054 00:59:01,400 --> 00:59:05,120 have done and might not have done, but you did do and feel a 1055 00:59:05,120 --> 00:59:07,840 sense of agency and pride and all the rest of it. 1056 00:59:08,400 --> 00:59:10,040 Now, I think it's pretty important that you do that 1057 00:59:10,040 --> 00:59:13,200 yourself and that it isn't done for you because that's the whole 1058 00:59:13,200 --> 00:59:17,200 point, right? Not to sort of accumulate some 1059 00:59:18,000 --> 00:59:22,200 log file somewhere that has these things in it, but to go 1060 00:59:22,200 --> 00:59:25,760 through the process of drawing your own attention back to what 1061 00:59:25,760 --> 00:59:28,600 you've done. So analog lists for me. 1062 00:59:28,680 --> 00:59:30,840 Yeah, analog notebooks all the way. 1063 00:59:31,800 --> 00:59:37,880 All right, final to AI or not to AIA timer that counts down from 1064 00:59:37,880 --> 00:59:42,160 4000 weeks starting at birth and pops up into your vision 1065 00:59:42,160 --> 00:59:46,400 whenever you are using your time suboptimally to remind you of 1066 00:59:46,400 --> 00:59:52,920 life's finitude. I think not to AII think the 1067 00:59:52,920 --> 00:59:57,040 reason is that I'm generally speaking, people are sometimes 1068 00:59:57,040 --> 00:59:59,560 surprised by this, but I'm not a big fan of those kinds of 1069 00:59:59,560 --> 01:00:04,640 memento Mori that kind of really focus on sort of poking their 1070 01:00:04,640 --> 01:00:06,600 way into your attention and reminding you that you don't 1071 01:00:06,600 --> 01:00:11,760 have time. I think that's generally not an 1072 01:00:11,760 --> 01:00:16,480 aid to entering more fully into the experience of life. 1073 01:00:17,480 --> 01:00:20,720 Generally pings you back into the control mindset. 1074 01:00:22,960 --> 01:00:25,600 Seems fair. We have one final question which 1075 01:00:25,600 --> 01:00:28,400 we ask all of our guests, and that is what is your most 1076 01:00:28,400 --> 01:00:35,800 controversial opinion about AII? Feel like all opinions are so 1077 01:00:36,560 --> 01:00:40,320 vigorously put forward on this topic that it's hard to find a 1078 01:00:40,320 --> 01:00:44,720 controversial one. But let me go with this because 1079 01:00:44,720 --> 01:00:47,000 I did mention this recently in a newsletter, and I think it's 1080 01:00:47,000 --> 01:00:53,160 true, and it's got truer since I wrote it, which is that a lot of 1081 01:00:53,160 --> 01:01:00,960 very grand predictions about AI, either very optimistic utopian 1082 01:01:00,960 --> 01:01:06,840 ones or especially the really sort of Duma predictions, are 1083 01:01:06,840 --> 01:01:11,480 best understood as coping mechanisms that the person 1084 01:01:12,040 --> 01:01:15,360 holding them is engaging in to deal with the fact that they 1085 01:01:15,360 --> 01:01:18,640 don't have a clue what's coming. So I think probably the 1086 01:01:18,640 --> 01:01:22,320 controversial opinion there is like that anybody who says with 1087 01:01:22,320 --> 01:01:24,640 a strong degree of certainty that they know what this future 1088 01:01:24,640 --> 01:01:26,480 is going to look like, they're dealing with their own emotions, 1089 01:01:26,480 --> 01:01:28,920 but they don't have any reason for that certainty. 1090 01:01:29,880 --> 01:01:31,240 Nobody knows. There you go. 1091 01:01:32,120 --> 01:01:34,320 It's very, you know, it's actually strange sort of 1092 01:01:34,320 --> 01:01:38,440 existential reassurance to say I know that everything is going to 1093 01:01:38,440 --> 01:01:42,760 hell in a handcart almost as much as to say that I know that 1094 01:01:43,120 --> 01:01:46,320 the golden age is is about to dawn like in in either case, you 1095 01:01:46,320 --> 01:01:48,920 know, and you don't have to face the fact that actually you 1096 01:01:48,920 --> 01:01:52,920 don't. Yeah, what a pleasure to have 1097 01:01:52,920 --> 01:01:56,480 this conversation with you. I certainly felt like this has 1098 01:01:56,480 --> 01:01:59,520 been very much time well spent from our end. 1099 01:01:59,520 --> 01:02:02,040 This present movie has really enjoyed every moment of this 1100 01:02:02,040 --> 01:02:04,160 conversation. Me, me too. 1101 01:02:04,520 --> 01:02:07,440 It's it's good to talk about the implications of some of this 1102 01:02:07,440 --> 01:02:12,400 stuff for things that I'm not so habitually talk talking about. 1103 01:02:12,400 --> 01:02:14,080 So that's great. Yeah, really thought provoking. 1104 01:02:14,080 --> 01:02:16,720 Thank you. Yeah, this has been so much fun. 1105 01:02:16,920 --> 01:02:19,080 I'm glad. I hope we did get to push you a 1106 01:02:19,080 --> 01:02:22,120 little bit out of your comfort zone, but I think for the best. 1107 01:02:22,360 --> 01:02:23,560 Yeah, no, absolutely. Thank you. 1108 01:02:24,960 --> 01:02:27,080 And that's a wrap. You've been listening to the 1109 01:02:27,080 --> 01:02:30,440 Behavioral Design Podcast brought to you by Habit Weekly 1110 01:02:30,440 --> 01:02:33,120 and Nuanced Behavior. Sam and Alene tell me. 1111 01:02:33,120 --> 01:02:35,560 This season is packed with incredible insights about 1112 01:02:35,560 --> 01:02:39,480 behavioral design and AI, so be sure to subscribe and share the 1113 01:02:39,480 --> 01:02:42,040 podcast with your friends. Though you might want to keep it 1114 01:02:42,040 --> 01:02:46,040 away from your enemies. In case you haven't noticed, I'm 1115 01:02:46,040 --> 01:02:49,480 an AI voice. Yep, pretty crazy. 1116 01:02:49,760 --> 01:02:52,720 Quite the improvement since last season's AI outro, don't you 1117 01:02:52,720 --> 01:02:55,440 think? If you'd like to collaborate 1118 01:02:55,440 --> 01:02:58,560 with us at Nuance Behavior, where we use behavioral design 1119 01:02:58,560 --> 01:03:01,360 to craft digital products with Nuance, e-mail us at 1120 01:03:01,360 --> 01:03:05,760 hello@nuancebehavior.com or book a call directly on our website, 1121 01:03:05,920 --> 01:03:10,440 nuancebehavior.com. A special thanks to the amazing 1122 01:03:10,440 --> 01:03:14,040 Dave Pizarro for our show music and to Mei Chen Yap and April 1123 01:03:14,040 --> 01:03:16,840 English for their help in producing and publishing this 1124 01:03:16,840 --> 01:03:19,080 episode. Thanks again for tuning in. 1125 01:03:19,360 --> 01:03:22,080 We'll be back soon with another exciting conversation where 1126 01:03:22,080 --> 01:03:24,560 behavioral design and AI intersect. 1127 01:03:25,400 --> 01:03:30,480 Cousins. To Mugatroid. 1128 01:03:50,120 --> 01:03:50,560 Oh.