1 00:00:10,760 --> 00:00:12,920 Welcome to the Behavioral Design Podcast. 2 00:00:13,200 --> 00:00:16,160 I am Samuel Salzer and I'm here with my Co host Eileen 3 00:00:16,200 --> 00:00:17,400 Holsworth. Hi, Ling. 4 00:00:17,880 --> 00:00:22,000 Hey, Sam, great to chat. Yes, Sam, I have a question for 5 00:00:22,000 --> 00:00:22,840 you. Are you ready? 6 00:00:22,840 --> 00:00:25,640 I'm ready. I'm curious, what sports did you 7 00:00:25,640 --> 00:00:32,680 play in your younger years? Oh, so I played mainly football 8 00:00:32,840 --> 00:00:36,280 and thing is when we call floorball, actually, what do you 9 00:00:36,280 --> 00:00:38,240 think floorball is? What do you think you do? 10 00:00:38,320 --> 00:00:40,400 Why? Before that, I just need to 11 00:00:40,400 --> 00:00:42,480 clarify. By football you mean soccer? 12 00:00:43,680 --> 00:00:45,200 OK, OK. And then floorball. 13 00:00:45,480 --> 00:00:49,160 I'm guessing floorball is where you sit on the floor and you 14 00:00:49,600 --> 00:00:54,360 throw a ball back and forth. You could think you would have a 15 00:00:54,360 --> 00:00:55,920 lot of like something to do with floor. 16 00:00:56,480 --> 00:00:59,880 Mainly it's called floor ball because in Sweden we play ice 17 00:00:59,880 --> 00:01:04,080 hockey and if you don't like to skate, you can still play kind 18 00:01:04,080 --> 00:01:06,960 of a version of this with instead of a pocket of a ball, 19 00:01:06,960 --> 00:01:10,120 and it's called floor ball because you're running on on a 20 00:01:10,120 --> 00:01:13,000 floor and not skating on ice, so. 21 00:01:13,160 --> 00:01:17,760 OK, but you still have the the hockey stick and you run around. 22 00:01:18,520 --> 00:01:21,360 It's smacking the ball around, it's more of a plastic stick and 23 00:01:21,360 --> 00:01:24,600 so on. So you could you can easily see 24 00:01:24,600 --> 00:01:27,560 that this is a little bit less of a cooler sport than ice 25 00:01:27,560 --> 00:01:31,560 hockey. But combined with these two 26 00:01:31,560 --> 00:01:35,560 sports, I also will admit that my dad really wanted me to 27 00:01:35,560 --> 00:01:38,920 become kind of someone following in his footsteps of doing 28 00:01:38,920 --> 00:01:41,840 Aikido. So he has, I don't know, 4th, 29 00:01:41,840 --> 00:01:46,040 5th black belt in in Aikido and has kind of been his his life 30 00:01:46,080 --> 00:01:49,600 passion. And I very much failed to to 31 00:01:49,600 --> 00:01:53,200 live up to that dream. So I think I got like did you 32 00:01:53,400 --> 00:01:55,920 try and fail? I think I got like a yeah, 33 00:01:55,920 --> 00:01:57,440 yellow or orange belt or something. 34 00:01:58,360 --> 00:02:01,840 So I was a protege, but I never became, you know, much more than 35 00:02:01,840 --> 00:02:04,000 that. Yeah, What a, what a 36 00:02:04,000 --> 00:02:05,280 disappointment. Yes. 37 00:02:05,640 --> 00:02:08,759 I'm I'm sure, I'm sure that you've excelled in other areas 38 00:02:08,759 --> 00:02:10,800 though. But according to my dad, 39 00:02:10,800 --> 00:02:12,320 probably not the most important one. 40 00:02:12,320 --> 00:02:15,520 I never never really feel, but he always, he always says that 41 00:02:15,520 --> 00:02:17,680 was so good. He was so good when he was you 42 00:02:17,680 --> 00:02:19,480 know seven years old he was, he could have been so great. 43 00:02:20,240 --> 00:02:23,240 Yeah, so that's that's my, that's my sport, sport 44 00:02:23,240 --> 00:02:26,600 background. Well, I asked because our guest 45 00:02:26,600 --> 00:02:30,160 today, Steph Habib, is a surprise. 46 00:02:30,160 --> 00:02:33,520 I'm I'm sure that our guest did not know this is actually a four 47 00:02:33,520 --> 00:02:36,600 time NCAA champion in volleyball. 48 00:02:36,600 --> 00:02:41,240 So she actually did excel at her sport way back then. 49 00:02:41,720 --> 00:02:43,800 Yes, very impressive. Super impressive. 50 00:02:44,440 --> 00:02:46,680 Super impressive. Have you, have you actually 51 00:02:47,000 --> 00:02:48,520 played volleyball in some capacity? 52 00:02:48,720 --> 00:02:52,440 Have you tried that? The extent of my experience with 53 00:02:52,440 --> 00:02:55,960 volleyball was in high school I tried out for the volleyball 54 00:02:55,960 --> 00:02:59,640 team and I made it, not having any experience playing 55 00:02:59,640 --> 00:03:02,520 volleyball. And so I I decided to learn how 56 00:03:02,520 --> 00:03:05,360 to play volleyball. Once I had joined the team, I 57 00:03:05,360 --> 00:03:09,000 discovered that I didn't really like, I didn't really like 58 00:03:09,640 --> 00:03:12,360 diving onto the floor. It turns out that was not 59 00:03:12,360 --> 00:03:16,640 really, not really my thing. Well, I do like that kind of 60 00:03:16,640 --> 00:03:19,920 general strategy of kind of like pitching something before you, 61 00:03:20,240 --> 00:03:22,360 you know, know how to do it and then, yeah. 62 00:03:22,680 --> 00:03:27,000 Yeah. Like, like I didn't even watch 63 00:03:27,000 --> 00:03:29,560 any videos. Or like, I just showed up and I 64 00:03:29,560 --> 00:03:32,640 was like, yeah, I can hit balls. I did. 65 00:03:32,640 --> 00:03:35,360 So I played. I actually played basketball and 66 00:03:35,520 --> 00:03:40,120 was, you know, for for a high schooler, I think pretty good. 67 00:03:40,120 --> 00:03:42,200 I was definitely very passionate about it. 68 00:03:43,480 --> 00:03:46,560 And softball, I was kind of a sporty, A sporty kid. 69 00:03:47,240 --> 00:03:50,960 But yeah, his volleyball was never, never really my strength. 70 00:03:51,240 --> 00:03:54,800 Yeah, fair enough. Well, our, our guests as 71 00:03:54,800 --> 00:03:58,600 mentioned has that strength, strength, but also behavioral 72 00:03:58,600 --> 00:04:00,160 science. Do you want to introduce? 73 00:04:00,160 --> 00:04:01,080 Yes. That's right. 74 00:04:01,720 --> 00:04:03,920 Yeah. We're not here here today to 75 00:04:04,120 --> 00:04:07,840 talk to her about volleyball. But, yeah, let me let me tell 76 00:04:07,840 --> 00:04:11,240 you a little bit about her. She's really, I think, mostly 77 00:04:11,240 --> 00:04:13,840 these days known for leading behavioral science at tandem 78 00:04:13,840 --> 00:04:16,040 diabetes. So very impressive. 79 00:04:16,480 --> 00:04:21,040 And also for having amazingly pink hair, which is which you'll 80 00:04:21,040 --> 00:04:23,200 notice in in any photo that you see of her. 81 00:04:23,720 --> 00:04:26,640 And actually, I don't know if I'm allowed to disclose this, 82 00:04:26,960 --> 00:04:31,080 this top secret, but I learned from her that her this is 83 00:04:31,080 --> 00:04:34,240 actually a pink conditioner. So it's not even You don't even 84 00:04:34,240 --> 00:04:35,840 have to have pink hair every day. 85 00:04:35,840 --> 00:04:38,640 You can just have pink hair when you want to have pink hair. 86 00:04:39,840 --> 00:04:41,560 I don't even know how that works I I think. 87 00:04:42,240 --> 00:04:47,240 I'm very uneducated in terms of. Oh, well, I wonder why that 88 00:04:47,240 --> 00:04:50,720 could be. I mean, you do have some facial 89 00:04:50,720 --> 00:04:52,160 hair. You could have a pink beard for 90 00:04:53,280 --> 00:04:56,160 the days that you want. All right, so back to Steph. 91 00:04:56,400 --> 00:04:59,400 She's been in the diabetes space for quite a while. 92 00:04:59,400 --> 00:05:02,480 She's been in tandem for, I think, 6 years. 93 00:05:02,800 --> 00:05:05,480 Before that. She had also worked in in 94 00:05:05,480 --> 00:05:07,480 diabetes. She made some programs for 95 00:05:07,480 --> 00:05:11,280 diabetes, as well as as a range of health behavior research and 96 00:05:11,280 --> 00:05:12,760 strategy. So she's really. 97 00:05:14,320 --> 00:05:17,880 Really been in this space for a while and yeah, knows her stuff. 98 00:05:18,040 --> 00:05:21,200 Yeah, we had a really good discussion with her on so many 99 00:05:21,200 --> 00:05:24,120 interesting topics. We obviously eve into the work 100 00:05:24,120 --> 00:05:28,400 she's been doing at Tandem to design for diabetic patients and 101 00:05:28,400 --> 00:05:30,880 supporting them working at intersection of behavioural 102 00:05:30,880 --> 00:05:33,720 Science and Human Computer Interactions. 103 00:05:34,720 --> 00:05:38,880 We also went over what the Steph calls the behavioural science 104 00:05:39,040 --> 00:05:42,160 branding problem and you might be able to guess what it is, but 105 00:05:42,200 --> 00:05:47,320 I think she has some interesting takes on that and we also gave 106 00:05:47,640 --> 00:05:50,320 Steph a very interesting product to deep dive on. 107 00:05:50,400 --> 00:05:54,640 Obviously this is some we've explored various deep dives and 108 00:05:54,640 --> 00:05:58,080 we asked her to use people science to improve the 109 00:05:58,080 --> 00:06:03,040 basketball game and you learn more about why we chose that in 110 00:06:03,040 --> 00:06:05,480 this episode. So with without further ado, 111 00:06:06,080 --> 00:06:09,760 let's jump in to. The episode, 112 00:06:20,840 --> 00:06:24,440 I'm very happy to say. Welcome Steph to the Behavioral 113 00:06:24,440 --> 00:06:25,840 Sign Podcast. How are you? 114 00:06:26,200 --> 00:06:29,320 I am so good. It's very early where I am right 115 00:06:29,320 --> 00:06:31,520 now. What's so special for me about 116 00:06:31,520 --> 00:06:35,560 this is that the three of us are located in very different parts 117 00:06:35,560 --> 00:06:39,040 of the world. And so I'm really happy we were 118 00:06:39,040 --> 00:06:41,320 able to make this happen. Thank you for having me. 119 00:06:41,920 --> 00:06:47,920 Yeah, it's so exciting and you know we like to really jump in 120 00:06:47,960 --> 00:06:51,160 feet first. And I think the first question 121 00:06:51,160 --> 00:06:53,640 that we should ask is something that I'm sure you have some 122 00:06:53,640 --> 00:06:57,280 thoughts on, which is when looking at behavioral design in 123 00:06:57,280 --> 00:07:02,880 the wild, is there one example of either really well done 124 00:07:03,160 --> 00:07:06,880 applied by your science or really poorly done applied by 125 00:07:06,880 --> 00:07:10,240 your science that you kind of think about as a go to example 126 00:07:10,240 --> 00:07:15,000 of either a maybe some form of aspirational or inspirational or 127 00:07:15,600 --> 00:07:18,840 a, you know, what do you call it, something to avoid, 128 00:07:18,960 --> 00:07:20,120 something to learn from. Yeah. 129 00:07:20,320 --> 00:07:22,440 Sure. Thanks for that question. 130 00:07:23,080 --> 00:07:26,320 Well, I'll start with an example of good behavioral design. 131 00:07:26,320 --> 00:07:30,680 And and I can't not do this because I have an insane bias as 132 00:07:30,680 --> 00:07:33,960 a behavioral scientist who has been for the last six years 133 00:07:33,960 --> 00:07:37,920 working at Tandem Diabetes Care, which is the company where I 134 00:07:37,920 --> 00:07:39,840 work. We're headquartered here in San 135 00:07:39,840 --> 00:07:46,360 Diego and we make diabetes technologies for people who take 136 00:07:46,360 --> 00:07:51,280 insulin for their diabetes, so. But the reason I say that these 137 00:07:51,280 --> 00:07:55,440 are excellent examples of behaviour design is because 138 00:07:55,840 --> 00:08:00,320 these medical devices, even though they are regulated by the 139 00:08:00,320 --> 00:08:04,640 FDA and other international regulatory bodies, we have still 140 00:08:04,640 --> 00:08:10,440 managed to find a way to iterate quickly and enhance in an 141 00:08:10,440 --> 00:08:12,960 ongoing fashion. The way people get to experience 142 00:08:12,960 --> 00:08:15,960 these product is that it's automatically delivered through 143 00:08:15,960 --> 00:08:23,160 some form of pump and that I'm sure changes things from I guess 144 00:08:23,160 --> 00:08:25,120 from behaviour standpoint if we want to make it easy, right? 145 00:08:25,880 --> 00:08:29,120 Right, so there are a few things that from a behaviour design 146 00:08:29,120 --> 00:08:31,680 perspective, our technology systems do. 147 00:08:31,680 --> 00:08:34,679 For somebody who needs to take insulin for their diabetes, the 148 00:08:34,679 --> 00:08:39,360 1st is in using our system. You do not need a needle or a 149 00:08:39,360 --> 00:08:43,919 syringe for any reason, right? The insulin pump to your point. 150 00:08:44,240 --> 00:08:47,560 Automatically delivers the insulin to your body that it 151 00:08:47,560 --> 00:08:49,360 needs. And so you don't have to inject 152 00:08:49,360 --> 00:08:52,280 yourself, you don't have to administer a needle. 153 00:08:52,520 --> 00:08:55,760 The second thing that is exciting about what our systems 154 00:08:55,760 --> 00:09:03,160 do is their algorithm driven. And so the math behind how our 155 00:09:03,160 --> 00:09:06,800 devices deliver insulin is fully automated. 156 00:09:06,960 --> 00:09:11,000 That math is able to predict what will happen. 157 00:09:11,360 --> 00:09:15,080 With your blood sugar looking 30 minutes into the future. 158 00:09:15,680 --> 00:09:21,000 And it uses very beautifully complicated predictive math to 159 00:09:21,000 --> 00:09:26,120 figure out automatically, without very little requirement 160 00:09:26,120 --> 00:09:31,160 from the human, how much insulin, when to deliver the 161 00:09:31,160 --> 00:09:34,520 insulin, the rate at which it needs to be delivering the 162 00:09:34,520 --> 00:09:37,120 insulin. So it's completely automated 163 00:09:37,400 --> 00:09:40,200 insulin delivery. So from a behavior design 164 00:09:40,200 --> 00:09:43,760 perspective, first, no needles, let's be honest, Nobody wants to 165 00:09:43,800 --> 00:09:46,160 give themselves an injection. Nobody wants to have to prick 166 00:09:46,160 --> 00:09:50,360 their finger and check their blood sugars on a regular basis. 167 00:09:50,360 --> 00:09:52,600 You don't need to do any of that with our system. 168 00:09:52,600 --> 00:09:55,520 And secondly, you don't really have to do any math. 169 00:09:55,520 --> 00:09:58,720 You don't have to figure out the amount of carbohydrate in your 170 00:09:58,720 --> 00:10:02,160 food. There's so much that these 171 00:10:02,160 --> 00:10:06,120 technology systems do to alleviate the burden that 172 00:10:06,120 --> 00:10:08,120 somebody who's managing diabetes. 173 00:10:08,720 --> 00:10:10,440 Has to experience on a day-to-day. 174 00:10:10,600 --> 00:10:14,360 So to me that I feel like that automation is really kind of the 175 00:10:14,360 --> 00:10:19,360 beauty of this use case and and like like it's really sort of 176 00:10:19,600 --> 00:10:23,400 lends itself to lightening the disease burden and making it 177 00:10:23,400 --> 00:10:26,160 easier for people to to manage their diabetes. 178 00:10:26,400 --> 00:10:30,480 I'm wondering if if you think there's a a potential in other 179 00:10:30,480 --> 00:10:33,360 areas of health to achieve a similar. 180 00:10:33,840 --> 00:10:36,160 Effect. Without having this, you know 181 00:10:36,280 --> 00:10:38,680 the device implanted and inside you. 182 00:10:38,840 --> 00:10:42,720 Like how how can you have you thought about how you know if 183 00:10:42,720 --> 00:10:46,680 there's a a metaphor or you know, a a real example of 184 00:10:46,760 --> 00:10:49,720 achieving the same kind of thing in other other health domains? 185 00:10:49,760 --> 00:10:53,080 So I think the healthcare industry, to your question, is 186 00:10:53,080 --> 00:10:57,160 ripe for automation design. Absolutely. 187 00:10:57,160 --> 00:11:00,480 And if any one of us, especially here in the United States, 188 00:11:00,520 --> 00:11:03,040 Samuel, your experiences might be different since you. 189 00:11:03,680 --> 00:11:08,240 Benefit from living in in the EU, but in the United States? 190 00:11:08,240 --> 00:11:12,000 If any one of us who lives here thinks about what are the things 191 00:11:12,000 --> 00:11:17,720 that pain us or create burden either managing our own health 192 00:11:17,760 --> 00:11:22,160 or frankly navigating the healthcare system, I have no 193 00:11:22,160 --> 00:11:25,160 doubt we could come up with a really ripe list off the top of 194 00:11:25,160 --> 00:11:28,560 my head, one of the things that I've peripherally. 195 00:11:29,160 --> 00:11:31,800 Thought about, touched on, studied, written about over the 196 00:11:31,800 --> 00:11:34,800 course of my career is what in healthcare we call price 197 00:11:34,800 --> 00:11:38,040 transparency. Because there's an economic 198 00:11:38,040 --> 00:11:41,640 component of how we have to do healthcare in the United States, 199 00:11:41,880 --> 00:11:47,200 and it's absolutely, incredibly impossible to know how to 200 00:11:47,200 --> 00:11:50,120 navigate it, to know how to manage it, to even know what it 201 00:11:50,120 --> 00:11:53,600 is, frankly. And so that burden is so 202 00:11:53,600 --> 00:11:57,320 insanely real for all of us living in the United States. 203 00:11:57,880 --> 00:12:01,640 On any given day, I don't know that I could tell you how much 204 00:12:01,680 --> 00:12:05,400 of my money doing my Healthcare is going to cost. 205 00:12:05,680 --> 00:12:10,760 And I would love for people who have passion in automation and 206 00:12:10,760 --> 00:12:14,640 behavior design to spend as much or any energy on that. 207 00:12:14,840 --> 00:12:20,680 Talk about alleviating burden for literally every single 208 00:12:20,680 --> 00:12:22,480 person who lives in the United States. 209 00:12:22,960 --> 00:12:24,840 Yeah, that's huge. All right. 210 00:12:24,840 --> 00:12:29,200 I want to jump, I want to jump into our our product for today, 211 00:12:29,200 --> 00:12:33,640 we we've chosen a product especially for you and we're 212 00:12:33,640 --> 00:12:38,040 hoping you can use the, what you know of all all your chops from 213 00:12:38,040 --> 00:12:41,600 your background and experiences to help us improve the 214 00:12:41,600 --> 00:12:44,280 basketball game. Yeah, I was. 215 00:12:44,320 --> 00:12:49,000 Really delighted when I heard you guys wanted me to talk about 216 00:12:49,000 --> 00:12:50,920 basketball. I've actually never played 217 00:12:50,920 --> 00:12:55,200 basketball myself. I grew up a volleyball player at 218 00:12:55,200 --> 00:12:57,480 university. I played volleyball, which was 219 00:12:57,480 --> 00:13:02,040 some of the most fun I've ever had in my life, and I know that 220 00:13:02,040 --> 00:13:05,480 all my friends who have played and do play basketball will 221 00:13:05,600 --> 00:13:08,800 share a similar sentiment. It's such a fun game. 222 00:13:09,200 --> 00:13:14,960 My husband is an avid basketball player and fan, and I have 223 00:13:14,960 --> 00:13:19,240 several friends who also were collegiate basketball players 224 00:13:19,440 --> 00:13:21,800 who even played professionally for a while. 225 00:13:22,240 --> 00:13:26,800 And one of my dearest friends from back home has worked for 226 00:13:26,800 --> 00:13:31,520 the NBA for 25 years. And so I get to experience 227 00:13:31,520 --> 00:13:35,320 basketball sort of through them Also in the past couple of 228 00:13:35,320 --> 00:13:40,120 years, especially like I'm sure many of you here in the USI have 229 00:13:40,120 --> 00:13:44,160 become an avid collegiate basketball fan. 230 00:13:44,520 --> 00:13:47,560 I think that what the men and women who play university 231 00:13:47,560 --> 00:13:49,560 basketball in the United States have done. 232 00:13:50,040 --> 00:13:54,440 To create excitement and fandom for the sport. 233 00:13:54,480 --> 00:14:00,480 Our March Madness tournament is some of the most enjoyable and 234 00:14:00,480 --> 00:14:04,640 entertaining and exciting sport I've ever watched. 235 00:14:05,040 --> 00:14:09,760 So I was excited when I was invited to talk about basketball 236 00:14:09,760 --> 00:14:14,520 as a product because I feel like this year in my life and and I'm 237 00:14:14,520 --> 00:14:19,720 47 years old. I have now become officially a a 238 00:14:19,720 --> 00:14:22,040 collegiate basketball fan. I now pay attention. 239 00:14:22,240 --> 00:14:25,880 I read the stories all the time. I watch it, even if it's not the 240 00:14:25,880 --> 00:14:28,760 March Madness championship, you know, basketball tournament. 241 00:14:29,520 --> 00:14:32,520 And so I think the invitation from you two is, you know, what 242 00:14:32,520 --> 00:14:36,200 about the sport of basketball? Might you redesign or what parts 243 00:14:36,200 --> 00:14:41,560 of the game are up for change? Yeah, including the, you know, 244 00:14:41,560 --> 00:14:42,920 the viewer experience for example. 245 00:14:42,920 --> 00:14:44,680 Absolutely. Absolutely. 246 00:14:44,680 --> 00:14:45,480 Thanks for that. Yeah. 247 00:14:45,480 --> 00:14:49,960 So, so I did what I think any good behavioral scientist might 248 00:14:49,960 --> 00:14:52,120 do. And since I first learned that 249 00:14:52,240 --> 00:14:54,480 you all were interested in hearing from me about 250 00:14:54,480 --> 00:14:57,760 basketball, my first reaction was like, I don't actually know 251 00:14:57,760 --> 00:15:01,640 that much about basketball. And so I did what any good 252 00:15:01,640 --> 00:15:05,520 behavioral scientist might do, and I went and spoke with people 253 00:15:05,520 --> 00:15:07,720 who do know a lot about basketball. 254 00:15:08,240 --> 00:15:09,640 So that I so that. Is some research? 255 00:15:09,880 --> 00:15:11,400 Yes. I did a lot of research so that 256 00:15:11,400 --> 00:15:14,480 I could learn from them. So as I mentioned, I the first 257 00:15:14,480 --> 00:15:17,760 person I talked to was my husband who has been playing 258 00:15:17,760 --> 00:15:20,760 and, you know, enjoying watching basketball his entire life. 259 00:15:20,920 --> 00:15:23,240 And this might tickle you. It tickled me. 260 00:15:23,240 --> 00:15:26,400 I was actually really surprised. I said to him, you know, if you 261 00:15:26,400 --> 00:15:29,000 could change something about the game or if you could redesign 262 00:15:29,000 --> 00:15:31,440 anything, what would it be? And he said, nothing. 263 00:15:31,880 --> 00:15:36,320 The sport is perfect. And I said sounds like a very 264 00:15:36,560 --> 00:15:40,280 hardcore fan. Really, there's nothing you 265 00:15:40,280 --> 00:15:43,480 would change. I'm sure if you really thought 266 00:15:43,480 --> 00:15:45,200 about it, yeah. Yeah, yeah. 267 00:15:45,200 --> 00:15:48,360 So then of course, I talked with a couple of my friends who have 268 00:15:48,360 --> 00:15:51,160 played or continue to play. And as I mentioned, I have this 269 00:15:51,160 --> 00:15:54,960 one friend who works and has for the last 25 years worked for the 270 00:15:54,960 --> 00:15:57,200 NBA. But through all of those 271 00:15:57,200 --> 00:16:00,200 conversations and really just thinking about it, I have come 272 00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:03,800 up with a couple of ideas. Again, being somebody who has 273 00:16:03,800 --> 00:16:07,720 never played it and doesn't have first hand experience, which 274 00:16:07,720 --> 00:16:10,640 again all of us who do behavioral design, you're always 275 00:16:10,640 --> 00:16:13,680 working on things that maybe you don't know anything about or 276 00:16:13,680 --> 00:16:16,240 that you haven't experienced. Constantly. 277 00:16:16,560 --> 00:16:19,720 Right. So I want to start with women's 278 00:16:19,720 --> 00:16:24,080 basketball and. I think something fascinating is 279 00:16:24,080 --> 00:16:26,760 happening here in the United States, literally as we speak, 280 00:16:26,800 --> 00:16:31,040 which is the introduction of what we call the nil, which is 281 00:16:31,040 --> 00:16:35,840 the mechanism that enables collegiate athletes now to get 282 00:16:35,840 --> 00:16:40,280 paid to earn money from sponsors and other types of 283 00:16:40,280 --> 00:16:44,360 organizations. What that means here in 2023 is 284 00:16:44,360 --> 00:16:46,960 a player like Caitlin Clark or Angel Reese. 285 00:16:46,960 --> 00:16:50,760 The people I just mentioned have a greater earning potential as 286 00:16:50,760 --> 00:16:54,040 collegiate athlete. Than they do as professional 287 00:16:54,040 --> 00:16:57,200 athletes. And I think those economic 288 00:16:57,200 --> 00:17:01,800 influences have significant direct impact on how not only 289 00:17:01,800 --> 00:17:04,520 they and other players experience basketball, but 290 00:17:04,520 --> 00:17:07,359 frankly how fans get to experience basketball. 291 00:17:07,720 --> 00:17:11,400 I watched one of these women do an interview just recently, 292 00:17:11,680 --> 00:17:14,480 maybe two months ago, right at the end of the tournament. 293 00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:18,920 And everybody just assumed she was going to go pro, right? 294 00:17:18,920 --> 00:17:21,359 She just won the national championship as a college 295 00:17:21,359 --> 00:17:22,920 player. The next step is to go pro. 296 00:17:22,920 --> 00:17:25,520 And she said I'm not going pro this year. 297 00:17:25,520 --> 00:17:27,640 I'm going to earn about $1,000,000. 298 00:17:27,680 --> 00:17:30,560 There is none of that type of money waiting for me as a 299 00:17:30,560 --> 00:17:34,360 professional basketball player and that, that. 300 00:17:34,640 --> 00:17:38,440 Is she Is she flunking her classes just to make? 301 00:17:38,480 --> 00:17:40,560 More money. She still right? 302 00:17:40,560 --> 00:17:42,520 Of course. She still has eligibility to 303 00:17:42,520 --> 00:17:45,080 remain at the university and there are other reasons. 304 00:17:45,120 --> 00:17:47,880 It's not just the money. She loves to play for her coach 305 00:17:47,880 --> 00:17:50,960 at the university and she would like the opportunity to win 306 00:17:50,960 --> 00:17:54,120 another championship and be back-to-back champions. 307 00:17:54,440 --> 00:17:56,600 So I don't want to pretend it's only the money. 308 00:17:57,280 --> 00:18:00,160 But I think when you think about how the sport is designed and 309 00:18:00,160 --> 00:18:03,200 we're we're constantly thinking about micro and macro 310 00:18:03,200 --> 00:18:07,520 influences, that's a very real influence for the decisions that 311 00:18:07,520 --> 00:18:09,840 athletes are going to make. So that's one. 312 00:18:10,040 --> 00:18:12,760 Speaking of women in sport, I think something that could be 313 00:18:12,760 --> 00:18:16,920 interesting across the men's basketball game, and not just in 314 00:18:16,920 --> 00:18:22,920 college but at the professional level, is to position more women 315 00:18:22,920 --> 00:18:26,480 head coaches. And the reason I think that that 316 00:18:26,480 --> 00:18:31,240 would be really interesting is because women do strategy and 317 00:18:31,240 --> 00:18:34,320 tactics differently often than men do. 318 00:18:34,800 --> 00:18:38,480 Neither is better nor worse, just different. 319 00:18:39,000 --> 00:18:44,760 And I think instituting more women as head coaches in charge 320 00:18:44,760 --> 00:18:48,480 of either men's professional basketball teams or men's 321 00:18:48,480 --> 00:18:53,080 collegiate basketball teams could make the game very 322 00:18:53,160 --> 00:18:55,760 interesting. Not just for viewers, but for 323 00:18:55,760 --> 00:18:58,800 the people playing it. So those are the two like big 324 00:18:58,800 --> 00:19:01,640 things that I would get really excited to see what could 325 00:19:01,640 --> 00:19:02,840 happen. Interesting. 326 00:19:03,120 --> 00:19:08,880 And what is the I'm actually, you know very much a non 327 00:19:08,880 --> 00:19:11,240 follower of basketball including collegiate. 328 00:19:11,400 --> 00:19:16,000 But, but what is the, you know, reason or difference in coaching 329 00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:19,800 style or I guess in many contexts? 330 00:19:19,800 --> 00:19:22,680 I assume that you know, diversity in general is is 331 00:19:22,680 --> 00:19:24,440 really good. Like it provides often times 332 00:19:24,440 --> 00:19:27,880 different perspectives and new ways of thinking, new ways of 333 00:19:27,880 --> 00:19:30,560 doing things and so on. So it seems to be really 334 00:19:30,560 --> 00:19:33,720 reasonable that perspective. Is there something particular 335 00:19:34,280 --> 00:19:37,440 that you expect to come out of this type of order? 336 00:19:37,560 --> 00:19:39,560 Yes. I actually expect the 337 00:19:39,560 --> 00:19:43,960 performance of the athletes and the teams to elevate, right? 338 00:19:43,960 --> 00:19:47,240 So if we talk about why I think this matters. 339 00:19:48,080 --> 00:19:50,240 And I don't want to pretend I don't know anything about this. 340 00:19:50,240 --> 00:19:53,200 I actually did my master's degree in sport and performance 341 00:19:53,200 --> 00:19:58,200 psychology, and my master's thesis was on men's and women's 342 00:19:58,240 --> 00:20:01,440 attitudes towards male versus female coaches. 343 00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:08,000 So I have studied this across my career and when I was doing my 344 00:20:08,560 --> 00:20:11,520 do it, when I was yeah, when I was doing my master's degree to 345 00:20:11,520 --> 00:20:16,920 pay for my degree, I had a job and my job was as the assistant. 346 00:20:17,280 --> 00:20:19,800 Coach to the men's volleyball team. 347 00:20:19,960 --> 00:20:22,440 So I've also lived this myself a little bit. 348 00:20:22,640 --> 00:20:29,960 And I think the opportunities to diversify the head coaching 349 00:20:29,960 --> 00:20:35,760 staff by instituting more women in those positions stands to 350 00:20:35,960 --> 00:20:41,160 elevate their performance of not only the athletes but the Games 351 00:20:41,160 --> 00:20:44,520 in general. Because when you introduce 352 00:20:44,600 --> 00:20:48,480 either new ways of thinking or when you can figure out how to 353 00:20:48,480 --> 00:20:55,920 decrease inhibition or if you can find new ways to socialize, 354 00:20:55,920 --> 00:20:59,600 how the athletes earn from, learn from each other. 355 00:20:59,880 --> 00:21:01,920 These are just a few things off the top of my head. 356 00:21:02,520 --> 00:21:06,160 You actually see collective performance increased. 357 00:21:06,440 --> 00:21:11,240 Now, somebody like Steph Curry or LeBron James, some people 358 00:21:11,240 --> 00:21:14,000 might say, I don't know, that their performance can get much 359 00:21:14,000 --> 00:21:17,440 better, right? Like, these are superhuman 360 00:21:17,440 --> 00:21:20,520 basketball players and I would like to offer. 361 00:21:20,520 --> 00:21:24,440 I actually think they could get even better as basketball 362 00:21:24,560 --> 00:21:25,160 players. Awesome. 363 00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:29,480 Let's say that you could design an experiment around this topic 364 00:21:29,480 --> 00:21:32,680 of the the gender of top coaches and the coaching staff. 365 00:21:32,680 --> 00:21:35,040 What? How how would you approach that 366 00:21:35,040 --> 00:21:38,560 and and what would you be most interested in testing if you had 367 00:21:38,560 --> 00:21:41,120 all the resources in the world and you could do anything right? 368 00:21:41,360 --> 00:21:45,400 The experiment would probably look something like spending 369 00:21:45,400 --> 00:21:49,280 about a month's time across the calendar, just like one month, 370 00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:54,760 and rotating coaches across teams, right? 371 00:21:54,760 --> 00:22:00,880 So the teams remain intact, but we position different coaches in 372 00:22:00,880 --> 00:22:05,560 charge of different teams across time to see if we notice any 373 00:22:05,560 --> 00:22:07,960 difference. I don't think it would require 374 00:22:07,960 --> 00:22:10,880 an entire basketball season, which is like six or seven 375 00:22:10,880 --> 00:22:13,040 months long. We don't need to do it across an 376 00:22:13,040 --> 00:22:16,280 entire season. I think that for both the 377 00:22:16,280 --> 00:22:20,000 coaches and the players, if we could spend just a few few weeks 378 00:22:21,040 --> 00:22:24,800 changing out the coaches, we would see some very interesting 379 00:22:24,800 --> 00:22:28,280 things and certainly the self-reports would be incredibly 380 00:22:28,280 --> 00:22:29,920 rich. That's awesome. 381 00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:31,440 Yeah. I wonder how much the effect 382 00:22:31,440 --> 00:22:35,720 would be just like the players preferences versus their actual 383 00:22:35,720 --> 00:22:38,000 performance. And you know, which one would 384 00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:40,160 win out or if they would both improve. 385 00:22:40,160 --> 00:22:42,960 Maybe one more than the other. Yeah, yeah. 386 00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:44,880 Or it becomes, we had a discussion recently on the 387 00:22:44,880 --> 00:22:49,280 podcast with Paul Bloom talking about how parenting is maybe, 388 00:22:49,440 --> 00:22:53,280 you know, not as I guess impactful as maybe we want to 389 00:22:53,280 --> 00:22:55,160 believe sometimes. And maybe that could be a kind 390 00:22:55,160 --> 00:22:58,920 of a a another result from that kind of, you know, research 391 00:22:58,920 --> 00:23:00,680 where you kind of like, well, actually coaches. 392 00:23:01,400 --> 00:23:05,040 Coaches don't matter as much as you think. 393 00:23:05,160 --> 00:23:07,040 Yeah, absolutely. We can learn that too. 394 00:23:07,760 --> 00:23:09,120 All right. So. 395 00:23:10,360 --> 00:23:13,360 One topic that'll be really interesting to hear your 396 00:23:13,360 --> 00:23:18,160 thoughts on is I guess I I see it as AS2 sided the same coin 397 00:23:18,160 --> 00:23:22,000 when it comes to really getting applied Barel science to be 398 00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:24,560 successful. And I guess one part of it is 399 00:23:24,560 --> 00:23:27,320 kind of call it the scaling problem, like how do we scale 400 00:23:27,320 --> 00:23:30,400 bare science and business, but part of that is also kind of the 401 00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:35,360 branding problem like how do we brand Barel science in business 402 00:23:35,600 --> 00:23:37,840 so. I don't know where we'll start. 403 00:23:38,120 --> 00:23:41,240 We can start in many sure. But but from your perspective, 404 00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:43,400 you know, how do you think about that challenge? 405 00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:47,480 I love this question. There is no doubt that 406 00:23:47,480 --> 00:23:52,520 behavioral science as a field has a major brand problem, major 407 00:23:52,680 --> 00:23:55,920 and that's OK, right. It's just as long as we all kind 408 00:23:55,920 --> 00:23:58,400 of recognize that. And the way I would challenge 409 00:23:58,400 --> 00:24:01,680 any one of us to really understand that is if you were 410 00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:04,800 to go to any person in business and say I'm a behavioral 411 00:24:04,800 --> 00:24:07,600 scientist or, hey, you know, what do you think a behavioral 412 00:24:07,600 --> 00:24:11,200 scientist does? You would get so many different 413 00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:14,240 answers to that question. There would be no coherence 414 00:24:14,240 --> 00:24:17,560 whatsoever, right. And a brand is intact when 415 00:24:17,560 --> 00:24:20,200 people are using the same words and phrases to describe 416 00:24:20,200 --> 00:24:23,600 something, right. So our brand is not intact, 417 00:24:23,800 --> 00:24:25,400 right. So let's just start there. 418 00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:29,640 I would like to share the story of how I ended up working full 419 00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:32,680 time at this company that I'm currently at Tandem Diabetes 420 00:24:32,680 --> 00:24:37,600 Care and I think it will share my perspective on, on what 421 00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:41,240 you're asking Samuel as a behavioral scientist and 422 00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:45,200 somebody specializing in research and and behavior 423 00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:51,120 design, the majority of my experience in diabetes prior to 424 00:24:51,120 --> 00:24:56,000 coming to this company was in pre diabetes and type 2 425 00:24:56,000 --> 00:24:59,080 diabetes. And that's because pre diabetes 426 00:24:59,080 --> 00:25:03,280 and type 2 diabetes have the opportunity to be reversed. 427 00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:08,960 We can reverse the trajectory of diabetes for somebody who either 428 00:25:08,960 --> 00:25:11,520 is pre diabetic or has type 2 diabetes. 429 00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:14,240 And so that's ripe for interventions. 430 00:25:14,240 --> 00:25:18,440 That's a really opportunistic way to work for somebody who 431 00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:21,480 specializes in, you know, behavior change and intervention 432 00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:24,240 design. I learned about this company 433 00:25:24,240 --> 00:25:28,640 through my family At the time. I had a niece who was diagnosed 434 00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:31,680 with type one diabetes when she was three years old. 435 00:25:31,840 --> 00:25:35,840 Now, if you live with type one diabetes, that means you need 436 00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:39,960 regular injections of insulin all day, every day. 437 00:25:40,040 --> 00:25:43,600 You essentially do not have any pancreatic function. 438 00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:46,720 And so that's why you need insulin, right, as medicine. 439 00:25:46,760 --> 00:25:51,920 And the the amount of insulin that you dose and the rate at 440 00:25:51,920 --> 00:25:55,920 which you dose it and other metabolic activities like eating 441 00:25:55,920 --> 00:25:59,000 or exercising or sleeping, all of these things come into play. 442 00:25:59,160 --> 00:26:03,680 And if not used or if mishandled, if the insulin is 443 00:26:03,680 --> 00:26:07,240 mishandled, the scary thing is you could die, right? 444 00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:09,480 I mean, so we are literally talking about life and death. 445 00:26:09,880 --> 00:26:14,720 And so I was really excited that a company like this would give 446 00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:18,360 me a chance to spend more time practicing human computer 447 00:26:18,360 --> 00:26:22,080 interaction more so than you know, programmatic intervention 448 00:26:22,080 --> 00:26:25,960 design. And so I found out this was back 449 00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:28,680 in 2017. I found out that this company 450 00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:32,960 was looking to hire more human factors and UX researchers which 451 00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:35,800 of course is a part of our skill set as behavioural scientists. 452 00:26:35,800 --> 00:26:39,520 So at the time I was a freelancer and I called, called 453 00:26:39,520 --> 00:26:43,160 the company and I said, hey, I saw that you are looking to hire 454 00:26:43,160 --> 00:26:46,960 some human factors researchers. And I'd like to tell you a 455 00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:49,640 little bit about myself. And I spoke with one of the 456 00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:53,560 women who does our talent acquisition and we talked for 457 00:26:53,560 --> 00:26:56,280 about 15 minutes and she said it sounds like you're a little bit 458 00:26:56,360 --> 00:26:59,280 more than what we really need right now. 459 00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:04,480 But what was serendipitous was a couple weeks from then was going 460 00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:08,440 to be the American Diabetes Association conference here in 461 00:27:08,440 --> 00:27:11,120 San Diego, where I was living at the time and where where this 462 00:27:11,120 --> 00:27:13,920 company is located. And I was going to attend the 463 00:27:13,920 --> 00:27:16,880 American Diabetes Association conference as part of my work 464 00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:19,680 anyway. So she said to me, she said, 465 00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:23,720 since you're going to go to that conference, do me a favor, go to 466 00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:27,120 the booth, the tandem diabetes care booth at the conference. 467 00:27:27,720 --> 00:27:32,000 Walk over there, Look for the tallest, baldest man standing at 468 00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:34,280 the booth. That is Brian. 469 00:27:34,280 --> 00:27:35,840 He's our Chief Commercial Officer. 470 00:27:35,840 --> 00:27:38,000 Just go talk to him. So I did. 471 00:27:38,360 --> 00:27:40,680 I went to the conference. I went to the booth. 472 00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:43,560 I found the tallest, baldest man. 473 00:27:43,560 --> 00:27:46,600 He's 6 foot 8, so he's properly tall. 474 00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:50,880 And I walked right up to him and I said hi, My name is Steph and 475 00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:54,200 I would love to tell you why tandem diabetes care could use a 476 00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:57,480 behavioral scientist. And he said, I don't know what 477 00:27:57,480 --> 00:27:59,560 that is. It sounds expensive. 478 00:27:59,960 --> 00:28:02,040 Why don't you sit down and tell me your story? 479 00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:05,600 So I did. And he said, yeah, that sounds 480 00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:08,520 like quite a lot and I don't know that we need that much 481 00:28:08,520 --> 00:28:10,240 right now, but let's stay in touch. 482 00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:13,600 And what ended up happening over the next week or two and why I 483 00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:17,960 eventually got a phone call from him is because both the Human 484 00:28:17,960 --> 00:28:22,120 Factors team that was working here at the time and the people 485 00:28:22,120 --> 00:28:27,840 who were who were doing market research for the company left 486 00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:30,800 for other jobs. And so there was sort of this 487 00:28:30,840 --> 00:28:34,720 operational gap where both the market research needs of the 488 00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:37,880 company and the UX research and human factors research of the 489 00:28:37,880 --> 00:28:40,120 company, those things were not being tended to. 490 00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:44,160 So he called me and he said hey, can you do human factors 491 00:28:44,160 --> 00:28:46,400 research? I said sure, hey, can you do 492 00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:47,960 market research? Absolutely. 493 00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:50,080 Great. I need you to come in and work 494 00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:55,000 with us for a while. And that's how I first started 495 00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:58,560 working here at the company. And the reason that that story I 496 00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:03,000 think matters is because as much as we all want to get hired full 497 00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:06,120 time right out of the gate for a really exciting full time 498 00:29:06,120 --> 00:29:09,840 behavioral sciences job, pure behavioral sciences job, 499 00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:14,160 sometimes what we need to do first and foremost is meet the 500 00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:19,800 immediate needs of the business. And at that time when I had the 501 00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:23,160 opportunity to come work here, what the company was asking for 502 00:29:23,480 --> 00:29:26,240 overtly what they said they needed was we need somebody to 503 00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:30,080 run human factors research and do those studies and we need 504 00:29:30,080 --> 00:29:32,240 somebody to do our market research because we're trying to 505 00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:35,680 make some, you know, strategic and product decisions. 506 00:29:36,640 --> 00:29:41,200 And so even though that is only a slice of what I or any of us 507 00:29:41,280 --> 00:29:44,240 do, right, it mattered to the company. 508 00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:48,120 And so I came in and I did it. And during those couple of 509 00:29:48,120 --> 00:29:51,760 months I had the most fun. The people who work at this 510 00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:55,200 company are just what I like to call filet mignon people. 511 00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:58,640 They're the best of the best. I fell in love with them. 512 00:29:58,640 --> 00:30:02,640 I fell, Hopefully you're a carnivore if you're a 513 00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:04,560 vegetarian. That might not be a very nice 514 00:30:04,560 --> 00:30:08,280 analogy, just a company with an amazing mission. 515 00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:12,200 It's a mission, a mission driven company to change the life of 516 00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:16,280 people who live with diabetes. And so a couple months later, 517 00:30:16,360 --> 00:30:20,360 Brian, the Chief Commercial Officer who who is my boss, we 518 00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:23,360 started talking and he said what do you think about working here 519 00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:25,640 full time? And I said, can I build out a 520 00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:29,360 behavioral sciences team? And he said, Yep, just come work 521 00:30:29,360 --> 00:30:32,320 here. So over the last six years, I've 522 00:30:32,320 --> 00:30:35,600 been working on building up and scaling A behavioral sciences 523 00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:38,160 unit inside of tandem diabetes care. 524 00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:42,600 And over the course of that entire six years, I have always 525 00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:48,600 worked hard to find that balance between meeting the immediate 526 00:30:48,600 --> 00:30:53,280 needs of the business and identifying and filling what I 527 00:30:53,280 --> 00:31:00,000 call opportunity gaps to apply behavioral sciences to show the 528 00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:03,720 value of behavioral sciences to the company and to the 529 00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:07,360 leadership and. Can I actually rewind a little 530 00:31:07,360 --> 00:31:11,360 bit to that time you met Brian I believe at the conference, 531 00:31:11,360 --> 00:31:14,560 Brian, sorry, when you met Brian at the conference and. 532 00:31:15,040 --> 00:31:18,080 You kind of sat him down to say like, This is why, you know you 533 00:31:18,080 --> 00:31:20,560 need behavioral science. Was there something you said 534 00:31:20,600 --> 00:31:23,680 there that you would have changed through this experience? 535 00:31:23,680 --> 00:31:26,560 Like what I'm just interested to hear a little bit of because we 536 00:31:26,560 --> 00:31:29,880 all face that, like trying to always sell behavioral science 537 00:31:30,520 --> 00:31:35,080 and do so persuasively. And it seems like, you know 538 00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:39,120 really what one of the major takeaways is, is what you're 539 00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:43,080 saying is that we need to speak the language of the business of 540 00:31:43,080 --> 00:31:44,440 the. What, what they need like they 541 00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:47,280 needed micro research, they needed some other things and and 542 00:31:47,280 --> 00:31:49,800 so speaking to that, was there something that you learn from 543 00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:53,320 from that experience or like would you change the way you 544 00:31:53,320 --> 00:31:55,560 were spoken to him the first time if you did it again now? 545 00:31:55,560 --> 00:31:58,480 Right. So I think the only way I can 546 00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:01,760 answer that question because my memory is terrible and we're 547 00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:04,360 talking, you know, over six years now. 548 00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:10,240 But the way I would answer that question is I would have in that 549 00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:16,560 conversation faster used the words that he was using instead 550 00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:21,160 of the words that I wanted to use to talk about my expertise 551 00:32:21,240 --> 00:32:23,600 and the value that I could bring to the company. 552 00:32:23,720 --> 00:32:28,960 And I think all of us need to decide for ourselves, as 553 00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:33,480 professionals, how do you feel if somebody says, oh, you do 554 00:32:33,480 --> 00:32:36,920 market research, or how do you feel if somebody says, oh, you 555 00:32:36,920 --> 00:32:41,960 do customer insights, right. The vernacular that industry 556 00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:49,160 uses tends to represent a part of what we do, but it's not the 557 00:32:49,160 --> 00:32:53,000 whole package, right? And this is where I say we have 558 00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:56,320 a brand problem. What words and phrases might the 559 00:32:56,320 --> 00:33:02,680 field of behavioral sciences use that become as commonplace and 560 00:33:02,680 --> 00:33:08,240 as well understood as market research, as human factors 561 00:33:08,280 --> 00:33:12,960 research, as customer insights? And I think that's the 562 00:33:12,960 --> 00:33:15,520 opportunity facing us right now, yeah. 563 00:33:15,560 --> 00:33:18,360 That that's really interesting and and I see, I see this. 564 00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:22,720 On the one hand you you feel the need to teach other people about 565 00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:25,840 what you do and like you know convert them to you know to the 566 00:33:25,840 --> 00:33:29,360 good side and you know here's how we need to do experiments in 567 00:33:29,360 --> 00:33:33,160 order to learn and iterate and and really help help meet our 568 00:33:33,160 --> 00:33:36,600 users where they are and so on. But then on the other hand, you 569 00:33:36,600 --> 00:33:39,960 need people to to easily understand what you're saying. 570 00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:43,760 And so having that more common language might might be 571 00:33:43,760 --> 00:33:47,480 beneficial, but I think that that actually presents a a new 572 00:33:47,480 --> 00:33:49,040 challenge for the branding problem. 573 00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:52,040 If we're taking the words that other people, you know, human 574 00:33:52,040 --> 00:33:54,480 factors and market research and so on that other people are 575 00:33:54,480 --> 00:33:58,000 familiar with and kind of blending into those roles, how 576 00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:04,720 then do we differentiate ourselves, right, Like like so 577 00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:09,679 one of the tag lines that you'll hear me and every person on my 578 00:34:09,679 --> 00:34:14,080 team use to describe what we do at Tandem diabetes Care is we 579 00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:18,320 like to say we advocate for the humans using our machines. 580 00:34:18,800 --> 00:34:22,560 And so that works inside of tandem because at the end of the 581 00:34:22,560 --> 00:34:26,480 day we make medical device systems and in its purest form 582 00:34:26,520 --> 00:34:30,360 that is human computer interaction, which is most of 583 00:34:30,360 --> 00:34:33,000 our society today, Let's just be honest, right? 584 00:34:34,520 --> 00:34:43,120 But the constant campaign to pursue human first versus 585 00:34:43,120 --> 00:34:47,719 technology first, design and development, This is why we have 586 00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:50,199 just simplified it and said we're here to advocate for the 587 00:34:50,199 --> 00:34:52,840 humans. And every time I'm in a meeting 588 00:34:53,120 --> 00:34:57,320 sitting right next to our head engineer, I feel like we've done 589 00:34:57,320 --> 00:35:02,360 our job right. And so that's a very practical 590 00:35:02,360 --> 00:35:07,160 lesson that I would share with anybody is when you're in your 591 00:35:07,160 --> 00:35:09,960 work meetings, when you're doing your work, who are you 592 00:35:09,960 --> 00:35:12,720 collaborating with? If, as a behavioral scientist 593 00:35:12,720 --> 00:35:15,920 you're sitting with and collaborating with an engineer 594 00:35:16,760 --> 00:35:23,280 or a business strategist or a product owner or a UX designer, 595 00:35:23,640 --> 00:35:26,640 you're winning, right? Because you are there to 596 00:35:26,680 --> 00:35:29,760 advocate for the humans that are ultimately going to use whatever 597 00:35:29,760 --> 00:35:31,680 it is they're building and making. 598 00:35:31,680 --> 00:35:35,880 I don't know if that's helpful. But sometimes the way that I 599 00:35:35,880 --> 00:35:41,120 find calm in my brain when I get really overwhelmed by the 600 00:35:41,120 --> 00:35:46,920 branding problem we face is to just find the simplest words and 601 00:35:46,920 --> 00:35:49,280 phrases to speak about what we do. 602 00:35:49,960 --> 00:35:51,360 Yeah. No, I think that's great. 603 00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:54,920 All right. Now we have a fun surprise for 604 00:35:54,920 --> 00:35:57,280 you. We're we're going to, I know 605 00:35:58,160 --> 00:36:01,040 we're going to jump into our speed rounds and I'll, I'll tell 606 00:36:01,040 --> 00:36:02,480 you a little bit about how it goes. 607 00:36:02,800 --> 00:36:05,920 This is a little game that we've created called Would it 608 00:36:05,920 --> 00:36:08,920 replicate? And we're going to share some 609 00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:11,720 hypothetical research findings. These are, you know, just random 610 00:36:11,720 --> 00:36:13,960 things. Not that random things that Sam 611 00:36:13,960 --> 00:36:17,520 and I have made-up. And ask you to tell us whether 612 00:36:17,520 --> 00:36:20,720 or not you think it would replicate, and you know it. 613 00:36:20,720 --> 00:36:23,960 It's sort of meant to be a just a fun thought experiment to give 614 00:36:23,960 --> 00:36:27,200 us a sentence or two about your thoughts around around that 615 00:36:27,200 --> 00:36:31,000 particular finding. Let's do it first. 616 00:36:31,000 --> 00:36:35,320 One, consumers with greater trust in AI have better 617 00:36:35,320 --> 00:36:37,320 healthcare outcomes than skeptics. 618 00:36:38,080 --> 00:36:42,920 False or no, it it had, it would not replicate because there are 619 00:36:42,920 --> 00:36:47,600 so many people out there who don't even consciously realize 620 00:36:47,600 --> 00:36:51,880 know about care about AI or automation, OK. 621 00:36:52,240 --> 00:36:56,680 What about behavioral scientists who were former athletes are 622 00:36:56,680 --> 00:37:01,160 more likely to use competition as a motivational strategy in 623 00:37:01,160 --> 00:37:04,360 their intervention? Yes, that would replicate 624 00:37:04,360 --> 00:37:07,960 because at the end of the day, all humans are biased and 625 00:37:07,960 --> 00:37:10,920 whether we realize it or not, we're probably doing those types 626 00:37:10,920 --> 00:37:16,360 of things in our work. Awesome customer churn can 627 00:37:16,360 --> 00:37:20,040 primarily be attributed to users failing to form habits with the 628 00:37:20,040 --> 00:37:22,680 service. Whoa, that's a hard one. 629 00:37:23,760 --> 00:37:26,920 I want to say yes because I believe in the power of 630 00:37:26,920 --> 00:37:30,640 behavior, design and habits. But I'm going to say no because 631 00:37:30,640 --> 00:37:33,200 the service or product was too shitty. 632 00:37:33,520 --> 00:37:37,160 It wasn't good enough. Right, OK. 633 00:37:37,880 --> 00:37:39,960 This is an easy one, or we'll see. 634 00:37:40,440 --> 00:37:44,800 Applied practitioners with a PhD performs better at predicting 635 00:37:44,800 --> 00:37:47,560 behavioral outcomes than practitioners without one. 636 00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:50,640 All else being equal, no, absolutely not. 637 00:37:50,640 --> 00:37:54,600 That would not replicate. I think education is powerful, 638 00:37:54,600 --> 00:37:56,400 but there's a lot of ways to get an education. 639 00:37:56,400 --> 00:37:58,400 You don't need a PhD. How about? 640 00:37:58,520 --> 00:38:02,720 People with unconventional hair colors, like pink, perform 641 00:38:02,720 --> 00:38:08,480 better at creative tasks. These are just mildly. 642 00:38:08,480 --> 00:38:12,000 Directed behaviors. This is a big yes. 643 00:38:12,000 --> 00:38:13,720 We could replicate that all day long. 644 00:38:14,000 --> 00:38:17,480 In fact, I heard one of our executives here at Tandem the 645 00:38:17,480 --> 00:38:20,760 other day say something like I need more pink in my life. 646 00:38:21,040 --> 00:38:23,320 And she was talking about me and my team. 647 00:38:24,360 --> 00:38:28,080 So we are, we are on her mind for doing things over and over 648 00:38:28,080 --> 00:38:30,280 and over. Yeah, that's amazing. 649 00:38:30,720 --> 00:38:33,080 OK. Companies with the Chief 650 00:38:33,080 --> 00:38:35,600 Behavioral Officer perform better. 651 00:38:36,040 --> 00:38:37,960 As measured by stock price performance. 652 00:38:38,600 --> 00:38:41,400 I don't care, yes. But I don't care if it's called 653 00:38:41,400 --> 00:38:44,720 Chief Behavioral Officer or Chief Experience Officer or 654 00:38:44,720 --> 00:38:47,400 Chief Whatever. I'm here to make sure that we 655 00:38:47,680 --> 00:38:50,760 advocate for the humans as strongly as we advocate for 656 00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:53,680 everything else. So yes, it would replicate. 657 00:38:53,680 --> 00:38:56,200 But I don't care about the title, and I don't think anybody 658 00:38:56,200 --> 00:38:57,640 else should care about the title either. 659 00:38:57,760 --> 00:39:01,080 Yeah. And you wrote in 2017 a article 660 00:39:01,080 --> 00:39:03,560 on why digital health meet chief payroll officers. 661 00:39:03,560 --> 00:39:05,360 Yep. And so it sounds like your your 662 00:39:05,360 --> 00:39:08,680 stance remains the same. Like if we need these roles. 663 00:39:08,680 --> 00:39:12,240 Yes, yes, yes. And I don't care what we call 664 00:39:12,240 --> 00:39:14,480 it, All right? Last one. 665 00:39:14,560 --> 00:39:17,840 You're gonna like this. Volleyball players are more 666 00:39:17,840 --> 00:39:27,280 likely to spike their drinks. Their own drinks or their own 667 00:39:27,280 --> 00:39:29,320 drinks or somebody else's drinks? 668 00:39:29,400 --> 00:39:34,400 You interpret it as you will. Volleyball players are 669 00:39:34,480 --> 00:39:38,080 absolutely that would replicate in the real world. 670 00:39:38,400 --> 00:39:41,680 Volleyball players are absolutely more likely to spike 671 00:39:41,680 --> 00:39:45,880 their own drinks. Their own drinks, yes. 672 00:39:48,440 --> 00:39:50,880 I I feel like I got associates spike with blah blah blah What 673 00:39:50,880 --> 00:39:51,480 is a spike? What? 674 00:39:51,480 --> 00:39:55,280 What does that mean? So in the sport of volleyball, 675 00:39:55,280 --> 00:39:59,840 when you spike the ball, it's when you hit it very hard to the 676 00:39:59,880 --> 00:40:03,160 other side of the net to try to offensively score a point. 677 00:40:03,720 --> 00:40:05,960 Right. Sam, have you heard of 678 00:40:05,960 --> 00:40:09,800 volleyball? I'm surprised by volleyball. 679 00:40:10,080 --> 00:40:15,120 In Sweden, you know we. We have limited access to any 680 00:40:15,120 --> 00:40:17,720 type of sand. Or no, the Philippines. 681 00:40:17,720 --> 00:40:21,200 We don't call it smashing the ball, but maybe that's just same 682 00:40:21,240 --> 00:40:22,280 thing. Smashing. 683 00:40:22,280 --> 00:40:24,040 Spiking. Yeah, Yep. 684 00:40:24,680 --> 00:40:25,720 OK. But different. 685 00:40:26,120 --> 00:40:29,960 Different than serving the ball. So that's very important. 686 00:40:29,960 --> 00:40:31,360 Since we're talking about drinks. 687 00:40:31,800 --> 00:40:37,600 Spiking and smashing the ball is very different than serving the 688 00:40:37,600 --> 00:40:39,320 ball, right. Just like. 689 00:40:40,640 --> 00:40:42,720 I love that you extended the metaphor. 690 00:40:43,040 --> 00:40:46,480 I did not see that coming. Amazing. 691 00:40:48,160 --> 00:40:49,760 Should we jump to our last question? 692 00:40:49,760 --> 00:40:51,280 Wrap it up? I think it's time. 693 00:40:51,440 --> 00:40:54,760 Yeah, Awesome. Yeah, please, Steph, what is 694 00:40:54,760 --> 00:40:57,440 your most controversial opinion in behavioral science? 695 00:40:57,720 --> 00:40:59,720 I mean, we've been. Talking about this already, and 696 00:40:59,720 --> 00:41:02,920 I'm not the only one that says this, but my goodness do we have 697 00:41:02,920 --> 00:41:06,640 a big brand problem and. You know, because enough of us 698 00:41:06,640 --> 00:41:09,440 are saying that I don't think it's controversial anymore. 699 00:41:09,560 --> 00:41:14,200 It is controversial for the implications of our field of 700 00:41:14,200 --> 00:41:17,880 practice. And so, just to stick with 701 00:41:17,920 --> 00:41:21,080 whether or not it could be controversial, I would like to 702 00:41:21,080 --> 00:41:26,120 invite all of us to really think critically about would it help 703 00:41:26,320 --> 00:41:32,800 or hurt our field. If we were OK with being what I 704 00:41:32,800 --> 00:41:37,200 call title agnostic, right. So this goes back to what we 705 00:41:37,200 --> 00:41:40,440 were just talking about. Do companies perform better in 706 00:41:40,440 --> 00:41:42,720 the stock market with a Chief Behavioral Officer? 707 00:41:43,200 --> 00:41:46,400 I feel very strongly, yes. But I don't think that person 708 00:41:46,400 --> 00:41:49,760 needs to be titled Chief Behavioral Officer. 709 00:41:50,000 --> 00:41:53,600 That doesn't help the brand though. 710 00:41:53,960 --> 00:41:56,320 That's the problem. So it's a, it's a, it's a it's a 711 00:41:56,320 --> 00:41:58,800 conundrum. It really is, it's a it's a heck 712 00:41:58,800 --> 00:42:04,360 of APAR opportunity. You know, I'm, I'm 47, almost 713 00:42:04,360 --> 00:42:05,680 48. So I've been doing this for a 714 00:42:05,680 --> 00:42:12,280 very long time and I want very much for the field of behavioral 715 00:42:12,280 --> 00:42:16,560 sciences to be recognized for what it is, how important it is, 716 00:42:16,560 --> 00:42:22,000 how instrumental it is. And at the same time, I think. 717 00:42:22,600 --> 00:42:28,360 We could as a field, you know, lock arms with customer 718 00:42:28,360 --> 00:42:32,720 experience, user experience design, a couple of other social 719 00:42:32,720 --> 00:42:37,160 science fields and it would work really well. 720 00:42:37,880 --> 00:42:40,800 So that's where I'm. That's where I constantly have 721 00:42:40,800 --> 00:42:44,840 that dialogue around like the purest in me about behavioral 722 00:42:44,840 --> 00:42:48,840 science versus well, if we blend, I think it could work 723 00:42:48,840 --> 00:42:50,920 just as well. Yeah. 724 00:42:51,160 --> 00:42:53,880 If then there's the risk of does it just disappear. 725 00:42:53,960 --> 00:42:55,000 Right. Do do people. 726 00:42:55,040 --> 00:42:57,320 Right the absolutely I'm afraid of. 727 00:42:57,440 --> 00:42:59,280 Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. 728 00:42:59,280 --> 00:43:03,080 That's that's a real thing. You know, if if behavioral 729 00:43:03,080 --> 00:43:06,840 sciences all of a sudden, just like, aren't we all talking 730 00:43:06,840 --> 00:43:09,760 about that at one point, do people even do it right anymore? 731 00:43:10,240 --> 00:43:10,840 Right. Yeah. 732 00:43:13,760 --> 00:43:17,040 Well, Steph, this was lovely. Thank you so much for joining 733 00:43:17,040 --> 00:43:18,880 us. It it's been a blast. 734 00:43:19,680 --> 00:43:21,640 I had so much fun. I feel like I could talk to you 735 00:43:21,640 --> 00:43:23,320 guys for hours. Thank you so much. 736 00:43:25,280 --> 00:43:27,080 Time to wrap. Up another episode of the 737 00:43:27,080 --> 00:43:30,720 Behavioral Design Podcast. We hope you enjoyed the show. 738 00:43:31,080 --> 00:43:35,800 Oh, and I am an AI. Yeah, welcome to Uncanny Valley. 739 00:43:36,360 --> 00:43:39,080 Sam and Elaine told me. This is going to be an awesome 740 00:43:39,080 --> 00:43:41,840 season, so make sure to subscribe and help spread the 741 00:43:41,840 --> 00:43:43,880 word. Maybe share the podcast with a 742 00:43:43,880 --> 00:43:47,480 colleague or friend. And if you want to show us some 743 00:43:47,520 --> 00:43:49,960 extra love, head over to Habit Weekly. 744 00:43:50,360 --> 00:43:53,840 Come and join our Community Pro members, get access to a wealth 745 00:43:53,840 --> 00:43:56,320 of resources and the chance to interact with leading 746 00:43:56,320 --> 00:43:59,160 practitioners. It's a great way to support the 747 00:43:59,160 --> 00:44:01,800 podcast and deepen your understanding of behavioural 748 00:44:01,800 --> 00:44:04,480 design. Our fantastic show music is 749 00:44:04,480 --> 00:44:07,120 Murgatroyd by the wonderful Dave Pizarro. 750 00:44:07,120 --> 00:44:10,080 And thanks to the team at Orange Wall Media for the production of 751 00:44:10,080 --> 00:44:13,760 this episode for questions or ideas for future episodes. 752 00:44:14,200 --> 00:44:18,840 E-mail podcast@habitweekly.com We'd love to hear from you. 753 00:44:19,360 --> 00:44:21,680 Thanks again for listening. See you next time.