1 00:00:21,380 --> 00:00:24,980 Hello and welcome to this episode of With Reverence and 2 00:00:24,980 --> 00:00:29,180 Awe, the podcast of the Johannes Bugenhagen Liturgical Institute. 3 00:00:29,760 --> 00:00:32,880 My name is Caleb Strutz, I will be your host for this episode. 4 00:00:33,360 --> 00:00:37,800 With me today is Jeremy Aiello. Jeremy, would you please say a 5 00:00:37,800 --> 00:00:40,320 few words to introduce yourself? Hi, Caleb. 6 00:00:41,040 --> 00:00:44,960 Yeah, I am Jeremy Aiello. This is, I think, the third time 7 00:00:44,960 --> 00:00:47,720 I've been on the the podcast. This has been kind of nice being 8 00:00:47,720 --> 00:00:51,200 a regular. I am a retired teacher and a 9 00:00:51,200 --> 00:00:55,160 member of the Els. I've Lutheran who converted out 10 00:00:55,160 --> 00:00:58,760 of evangelicalism into Lutheranism, and I've been here 11 00:00:58,760 --> 00:01:03,640 for the better part of a decade and I live in Michigan and I 12 00:01:03,640 --> 00:01:07,720 absolutely love being a Lutheran and I'm glad to be here today. 13 00:01:08,480 --> 00:01:10,800 Awesome. Great to have you back on my 14 00:01:10,800 --> 00:01:12,960 name again. As I said, Caleb struts. 15 00:01:13,160 --> 00:01:16,960 I have also been a previous guest on this podcast, but this 16 00:01:16,960 --> 00:01:20,280 is my first time as a host. Last time I was interviewed, I 17 00:01:20,280 --> 00:01:23,720 was serving as vicar at Peace Lutheran Church in North 18 00:01:23,720 --> 00:01:26,280 Mankato. Since that time, I have been 19 00:01:26,280 --> 00:01:30,880 ordained and installed as pastor at Our Savior at Lutheran Church 20 00:01:30,880 --> 00:01:35,080 in Lakeland, FL and Resurrection Lutheran Church in Winter Haven, 21 00:01:35,080 --> 00:01:37,320 FL. So glad to have you with us 22 00:01:37,320 --> 00:01:40,160 today to, to talk about what we're going to be talking about. 23 00:01:41,360 --> 00:01:44,120 So the what we're going to be talking about today is, is one 24 00:01:44,120 --> 00:01:47,280 of the biggest news events that's been around and I've I've 25 00:01:47,280 --> 00:01:50,880 seen it everywhere, overflowing even from from the Internet into 26 00:01:50,880 --> 00:01:54,600 real life, which is the assassination of Charlie Kirk. 27 00:01:55,120 --> 00:01:58,760 Now, obviously this topic is kind of a minefield and we need 28 00:01:58,760 --> 00:02:03,160 to step and proceed carefully. So we really want to establish 29 00:02:03,160 --> 00:02:06,360 what we're going to be talking about on this episode and what 30 00:02:06,360 --> 00:02:09,080 we're not going to be talking about and the things we we want 31 00:02:09,080 --> 00:02:12,720 to avoid from the get go. We want to express our our great 32 00:02:12,720 --> 00:02:16,200 horror at this action of political violence. 33 00:02:16,560 --> 00:02:20,080 We extend our our deepest sympathy and our prayers to 34 00:02:20,080 --> 00:02:23,040 Charlie's widow, Erica, and their two daughters. 35 00:02:24,880 --> 00:02:27,760 But we also want to set some boundaries for, for this 36 00:02:27,760 --> 00:02:30,080 conversation. We're not going to be talking 37 00:02:30,080 --> 00:02:33,880 about Charlie Kirk as the figure, as controversial as as 38 00:02:33,880 --> 00:02:36,040 that would be. We're not going to talk about 39 00:02:36,040 --> 00:02:39,200 the assassination as an event. We are going to steer clear of 40 00:02:39,200 --> 00:02:41,760 politics. That's really outside of of our 41 00:02:41,760 --> 00:02:44,480 wheelhouse. What we do want to talk about 42 00:02:44,480 --> 00:02:48,480 though, is, is what I've seen labeled as the Kirk effect. 43 00:02:48,880 --> 00:02:51,720 And I think the the best way to explain that is with the little 44 00:02:51,720 --> 00:02:55,320 story I have. So the Sunday after Charlie Kirk 45 00:02:55,320 --> 00:02:58,960 was assassinated, I had five minutes left at the end of Bible 46 00:02:58,960 --> 00:03:01,360 study. And perhaps somewhat foolishly, 47 00:03:01,360 --> 00:03:04,720 I just opened it up to anything, if anyone had any questions or 48 00:03:04,720 --> 00:03:06,080 anything they wanted to talk about. 49 00:03:06,440 --> 00:03:10,960 And, and the question I got was, do you think that Charlie Kirk's 50 00:03:10,960 --> 00:03:14,480 assassination the cause of religious revival? 51 00:03:15,440 --> 00:03:18,640 And that was an expression that that was a sentiment that I'd 52 00:03:18,640 --> 00:03:22,280 heard expressed before online, the first time I'd heard it 53 00:03:22,280 --> 00:03:25,080 expressed in real life. So I was kind of set at a pause 54 00:03:25,080 --> 00:03:27,000 and, well, I don't know. So. 55 00:03:27,040 --> 00:03:29,560 So that's what we're here to talk about tonight, right? 56 00:03:30,400 --> 00:03:33,200 Is a revival going on or is it not? 57 00:03:33,200 --> 00:03:37,480 What are people looking for and being drawn to if there is this 58 00:03:37,480 --> 00:03:41,640 kind of religious revival? And how are we as liturgical 59 00:03:41,640 --> 00:03:46,120 confessional Lutherans situated and equipped to respond to, to 60 00:03:46,120 --> 00:03:48,920 this situation? So again, talking less about 61 00:03:49,040 --> 00:03:52,600 politics and, and everything that would go into that and more 62 00:03:52,600 --> 00:03:56,120 with the the religious trends that that we can identify and 63 00:03:56,120 --> 00:03:58,920 and talk about more comfortably from our position. 64 00:04:00,680 --> 00:04:03,520 Yeah, absolutely. That's a, that's a lot. 65 00:04:03,520 --> 00:04:05,680 It's a loaded topic. It's a, it's a good topic to 66 00:04:05,680 --> 00:04:07,520 talk about in, in light of what's happened. 67 00:04:08,840 --> 00:04:12,600 So I, I want to throw something out here at you, at you, Caleb. 68 00:04:12,760 --> 00:04:16,720 How do you define as a Lutheran, how would we define revival? 69 00:04:16,720 --> 00:04:19,000 Because I mean, I think we need to, you know, people will talk 70 00:04:19,000 --> 00:04:21,440 about revival, but we need to define what that is. 71 00:04:21,440 --> 00:04:24,960 How would how would you say we would define what is biblical 72 00:04:25,280 --> 00:04:29,680 revival? Yeah, obviously in our American 73 00:04:29,680 --> 00:04:33,440 context, revival kind of has a lot of baggage to IT. 74 00:04:33,440 --> 00:04:36,800 People will talk about the various Great Awakenings which 75 00:04:36,800 --> 00:04:40,880 are very neo Pentecostal or even Pentecostal or kind of 76 00:04:40,880 --> 00:04:43,920 charismatic movements. What I think what we would 77 00:04:43,920 --> 00:04:49,840 define as a revival is again more more so looking at the God 78 00:04:49,840 --> 00:04:53,440 ordained means of grace and people making an increased use 79 00:04:53,440 --> 00:04:55,160 of them. That that's what we would be 80 00:04:55,160 --> 00:04:58,680 looking for in a revival is is more people coming to church, 81 00:04:58,680 --> 00:05:01,720 more people hearing God's word, more people receiving the 82 00:05:01,720 --> 00:05:06,800 sacraments as opposed to some more abstract, nebulous kind of 83 00:05:06,800 --> 00:05:09,800 religious sentiment. Yeah. 84 00:05:10,120 --> 00:05:12,320 And you talked about, you brought up the Great Awakening 85 00:05:12,320 --> 00:05:16,680 and I'm glad that you did. When I was in evangelicalism, 86 00:05:16,680 --> 00:05:22,040 even in more conservative evangelicalism, evangelicals 87 00:05:22,040 --> 00:05:26,400 will talk very favorably about the First Great Awakening and 88 00:05:26,400 --> 00:05:29,440 they will talk very, most of them, the good ones will talk 89 00:05:29,440 --> 00:05:32,200 disparagingly about the Second Great Awakening with Charles 90 00:05:32,200 --> 00:05:36,280 Finney because they will say that Charles Finney had a lot of 91 00:05:36,280 --> 00:05:39,640 bad drop doctrine and he was very pragmatic, which is true. 92 00:05:40,040 --> 00:05:44,200 But even in the seeds of the First Great Awakening with the 93 00:05:44,200 --> 00:05:47,240 revival, there were things that happened that were not always 94 00:05:47,240 --> 00:05:48,960 good. There was, we're at times 95 00:05:48,960 --> 00:05:55,040 focusing on on emotions, on external responses. 96 00:05:55,040 --> 00:05:57,360 That's where you saw the, the emphasis on what was called the 97 00:05:57,440 --> 00:06:01,800 conversion experience. And there are Christians even 98 00:06:01,800 --> 00:06:05,600 now who hold that revival doesn't happen unless you see 99 00:06:05,600 --> 00:06:09,880 those outer emotive elements happening. 100 00:06:09,880 --> 00:06:13,520 And sometimes there's such a focus on that, that they want 101 00:06:13,960 --> 00:06:18,000 those outer emotive elements and they don't necessarily think 102 00:06:18,000 --> 00:06:21,640 about the proper biblical context and the and the 103 00:06:21,640 --> 00:06:24,600 substance of what's being preached, Which I mean, in one 104 00:06:24,600 --> 00:06:26,960 sense it kind of leads us to where we are now with talking 105 00:06:26,960 --> 00:06:30,880 about contemporary worship. But we, yeah, we have to divine. 106 00:06:31,640 --> 00:06:35,520 We have to define revival biblically and not fall into 107 00:06:35,520 --> 00:06:40,880 this trap of seeing it as something merely external. 108 00:06:42,640 --> 00:06:43,440 Yeah. Thank you for that. 109 00:06:43,440 --> 00:06:45,560 I think that's really helpful as we're kind of setting the 110 00:06:45,560 --> 00:06:49,280 boundaries for this conversation and, and defining our terms and 111 00:06:49,280 --> 00:06:52,000 recognizing some of the baggage that that comes with some of 112 00:06:52,000 --> 00:06:54,520 those terms. So obviously, as, as we're 113 00:06:54,520 --> 00:06:58,280 talking about these religious elements and dimensions in the 114 00:06:58,280 --> 00:07:01,800 aftermath of the assassination of Charlie Kirk, probably the, 115 00:07:01,800 --> 00:07:05,600 the first thing that comes to mind is the, is the memorial 116 00:07:05,600 --> 00:07:08,000 service itself. Again, we're so we're not going 117 00:07:08,000 --> 00:07:10,920 to focus on Charlie Kirk's religious beliefs. 118 00:07:10,920 --> 00:07:12,840 We, we can't judge a man's heart. 119 00:07:13,000 --> 00:07:15,360 We, we could certainly look at what he confessed, but that's, 120 00:07:15,360 --> 00:07:17,440 that's not what we're going to try to do. 121 00:07:17,760 --> 00:07:21,840 We're going to focus more on on this larger effect that seems to 122 00:07:21,840 --> 00:07:23,800 have stemmed and and gone out of this. 123 00:07:24,000 --> 00:07:27,000 And it seems a lot of that energy is centered and focused 124 00:07:27,000 --> 00:07:30,640 around the memorial service. So the memorial service 125 00:07:30,640 --> 00:07:34,360 definitely had a distinct style. And we've talked before about 126 00:07:34,360 --> 00:07:36,840 contemporary worship on this podcast before. 127 00:07:37,080 --> 00:07:41,000 So not to beat any dead horses or rehash too many points, but I 128 00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:45,000 think that this memorial service for Charlie Kirk in particular 129 00:07:45,160 --> 00:07:49,760 has really given a lot of energy and boosted a lot of hype around 130 00:07:49,760 --> 00:07:53,960 contemporary worship. So as we talk about supposed 131 00:07:53,960 --> 00:07:57,680 religious revival following this, I think we we have to ask 132 00:07:57,680 --> 00:08:00,320 what is this a revival of, right? 133 00:08:00,320 --> 00:08:03,880 If people more and more people are going back to church, what 134 00:08:03,880 --> 00:08:06,280 kind of church are they being LED towards? 135 00:08:07,840 --> 00:08:11,200 Yeah, this is one of the things that troubles me because I've 136 00:08:11,200 --> 00:08:14,480 been on Acts, especially in light of what's happened. 137 00:08:15,120 --> 00:08:17,840 And on the one hand, it's wonderful because I have seen 138 00:08:17,840 --> 00:08:21,280 people who've said I haven't been in church for 20 years and 139 00:08:21,640 --> 00:08:23,400 I want to go back. And this is absolutely 140 00:08:23,400 --> 00:08:26,000 wonderful. On the other hand, I've seen 141 00:08:26,000 --> 00:08:30,680 people even consider going to like Mormon churches, which 142 00:08:30,680 --> 00:08:34,520 obviously Mormonism is a, a cult outside of Orthodox 143 00:08:34,520 --> 00:08:36,960 Christianity. I I mean, they don't know where 144 00:08:36,960 --> 00:08:39,320 to go, some of them. And so they go anywhere. 145 00:08:39,320 --> 00:08:42,640 And those who saw the memorial are driven by the emotionalized 146 00:08:42,640 --> 00:08:48,240 presentation that the singers, Brandon Lake, Bill Wickham, and 147 00:08:48,240 --> 00:08:50,360 I can't remember the third guy, but there was a third guy in 148 00:08:50,360 --> 00:08:52,920 there. And these guys gave these very 149 00:08:52,920 --> 00:08:56,160 emotionally charged musical numbers. 150 00:08:57,200 --> 00:09:00,640 The problem is when you get into that, you have to, you can't 151 00:09:00,640 --> 00:09:01,960 just say, oh, I'm going to go to church. 152 00:09:01,960 --> 00:09:05,080 You have to know where you're going to church because as 153 00:09:05,080 --> 00:09:07,520 Martin Luther said, when the gospel is preached, the devil 154 00:09:07,520 --> 00:09:10,320 will come right along and he'll try to try to stir things up 155 00:09:10,320 --> 00:09:13,840 afterwards. And that's where the danger 156 00:09:13,840 --> 00:09:15,840 comes in. Because on the one hand, yes, 157 00:09:15,840 --> 00:09:18,080 people are turning their mind to the things of God. 158 00:09:18,360 --> 00:09:22,360 But when you have somebody like, like these musicians who are up 159 00:09:22,360 --> 00:09:25,520 there, what is not discussed is a lot of them belong to the 160 00:09:25,520 --> 00:09:28,560 Bethel movement. And the Bethel movement teaches 161 00:09:28,760 --> 00:09:32,920 that they embrace Word of Faith prosperity, they embrace a new 162 00:09:32,920 --> 00:09:37,400 Apostolic Reformation doctrine. And the undiscerning person will 163 00:09:37,400 --> 00:09:40,800 say, oh, I like Phil Wickham. I'll look up what church he goes 164 00:09:40,800 --> 00:09:44,800 to or his his theology and I'll jump right on that without any 165 00:09:44,800 --> 00:09:46,840 discernment. And there's where the concern 166 00:09:47,040 --> 00:09:50,320 comes in. Yeah, Thank you. 167 00:09:50,320 --> 00:09:53,680 So again, not that we're trying to Pooh, Pooh more people going 168 00:09:53,680 --> 00:09:55,160 to church, that's certainly a good thing. 169 00:09:55,160 --> 00:09:58,040 We just want to make sure that they're being pointed in the 170 00:09:58,040 --> 00:10:00,720 right direction and receiving something that's that's going to 171 00:10:00,720 --> 00:10:05,080 be healthy and good for them. Before we branch off to talk 172 00:10:05,080 --> 00:10:08,720 about kind of contemporary worship and these larger trends 173 00:10:08,720 --> 00:10:11,240 in general. Just want to focus in again on 174 00:10:11,240 --> 00:10:13,280 the memorial service in particular. 175 00:10:13,680 --> 00:10:17,720 We saw a lot of people delivering sermons that you 176 00:10:17,720 --> 00:10:21,400 normally wouldn't expect to be delivering sermons in another 177 00:10:21,400 --> 00:10:26,400 kind of context. So focusing less for now on the 178 00:10:26,400 --> 00:10:28,360 music and, and that kind of style. 179 00:10:28,520 --> 00:10:33,280 When we look at what was said is, is what was expressed There 180 00:10:33,280 --> 00:10:36,920 was, was that enough? You know, how excited should we 181 00:10:36,920 --> 00:10:40,520 be about this large gathering of, of a whole bunch of 182 00:10:40,520 --> 00:10:42,560 different Christians together? Obviously there's a certain 183 00:10:42,560 --> 00:10:45,080 amount of excitement. Is there anything that that we 184 00:10:45,080 --> 00:10:47,040 should be concerned about or be wary of? 185 00:10:48,720 --> 00:10:50,760 I'd say the first thing to remember is that this is a 186 00:10:50,760 --> 00:10:53,200 memorial. It's not a church service. 187 00:10:53,880 --> 00:10:57,560 And therein lies an important distinction that needs to be 188 00:10:57,560 --> 00:11:02,200 kept, because when you're going to memorial, especially when you 189 00:11:02,200 --> 00:11:05,640 have people that are coming forward to speak, even if they 190 00:11:05,640 --> 00:11:08,760 have Christianized words, some discernment needs to be made. 191 00:11:08,760 --> 00:11:10,760 Now, there were good things said. 192 00:11:11,080 --> 00:11:14,560 Frank Turek, who is a Christian apologist and a personal friend 193 00:11:14,560 --> 00:11:18,360 of Charlie Couric's, from what I understand, he gave a very, very 194 00:11:18,360 --> 00:11:22,080 good gospel presentation. On the other hand, there were 195 00:11:22,080 --> 00:11:26,160 politicians who spoke and I don't remember which one it was, 196 00:11:26,160 --> 00:11:30,000 but one of them talked about us all being God's, God's children, 197 00:11:30,000 --> 00:11:32,560 which of course we, we don't, we reject that. 198 00:11:32,560 --> 00:11:35,040 That's a form of universalism and that's a, that's a very 199 00:11:35,040 --> 00:11:39,280 dangerous path to take. So when you get that kind of a 200 00:11:39,280 --> 00:11:42,640 presentation in the memorial, you're getting a mixed bag at 201 00:11:42,640 --> 00:11:45,320 best. It's, it's like what I have told 202 00:11:45,320 --> 00:11:46,880 people. Can you hear the gospel of the 203 00:11:46,880 --> 00:11:49,200 Roman Catholic Church? Sure, you can, but unfortunately 204 00:11:49,200 --> 00:11:53,240 it will often be buried under some doctrines that are, that 205 00:11:53,240 --> 00:11:57,200 are problematic. So again, it it falls on the 206 00:11:57,200 --> 00:12:00,960 discerning person and remembering that that's memorial 207 00:12:01,000 --> 00:12:04,320 is key and that that not everything being presented 208 00:12:04,320 --> 00:12:05,960 necessarily would have been good. 209 00:12:06,000 --> 00:12:08,960 And and like you were talking about before, you're right, this 210 00:12:08,960 --> 00:12:12,120 does become a charge, a charge subject. 211 00:12:12,120 --> 00:12:17,080 Because unfortunately, sometimes in evangelicalism, if you come 212 00:12:17,080 --> 00:12:20,400 up with any concerns, if you, if something looks really good and 213 00:12:20,400 --> 00:12:22,360 you have any concerns saying, well, we need to be careful of 214 00:12:22,360 --> 00:12:24,040 this. People will like you said, Pooh, 215 00:12:24,040 --> 00:12:26,960 Pooh on you and say, no, you're just quote, UN quote, quenching 216 00:12:26,960 --> 00:12:30,280 the spirit or whatnot. And no, we need to take a look 217 00:12:30,280 --> 00:12:34,240 at it with a discerning eye. Yeah, I mean, I've, I've even 218 00:12:34,240 --> 00:12:37,200 seen a lot of people in our more immediate circles that have 219 00:12:37,200 --> 00:12:40,640 expressed excitement or a kind of emotional connection, 220 00:12:41,040 --> 00:12:44,240 obviously not only to to the events surrounding the death of 221 00:12:44,240 --> 00:12:47,160 Charlie Kirk itself, but but also even the memorial service 222 00:12:47,160 --> 00:12:49,720 following it. And I realized that kind of a 223 00:12:49,720 --> 00:12:53,920 lot of what we've said so far has, has been more critical and 224 00:12:54,840 --> 00:12:58,400 people will, will react to those different critical perceptions 225 00:12:58,400 --> 00:13:01,080 and in different ways. Obviously, we're not trying to, 226 00:13:01,120 --> 00:13:04,720 to downplay any positive effects that, that might have come out 227 00:13:04,720 --> 00:13:07,400 of this. But but how do we respond to 228 00:13:07,400 --> 00:13:10,680 those allegations of, of your just being too critical? 229 00:13:10,680 --> 00:13:12,480 Why? Why can't you see and focus on 230 00:13:12,480 --> 00:13:14,200 the the good that is coming out of this? 231 00:13:16,560 --> 00:13:18,080 Well, let me ask you a question, Caleb. 232 00:13:18,080 --> 00:13:21,720 When that parishioner asked you that question, what did you give 233 00:13:22,160 --> 00:13:24,520 as an immediate response? What was the first thing that 234 00:13:24,520 --> 00:13:28,960 came to mind? I said, I hope and I pray. 235 00:13:28,960 --> 00:13:33,480 So obviously we, we hope that everything would lead to more 236 00:13:33,480 --> 00:13:36,240 people coming to church and, and making use of the means of 237 00:13:36,240 --> 00:13:38,880 grace. So I, I did start from, from a 238 00:13:38,880 --> 00:13:42,400 more positive place, but but then went on to kind of address 239 00:13:42,400 --> 00:13:45,360 some, some maybe potential concerns that that would go 240 00:13:45,360 --> 00:13:47,640 along with that. Yeah, absolutely. 241 00:13:47,640 --> 00:13:50,640 And that's, that's basically the take I would, I would take on it 242 00:13:50,640 --> 00:13:56,000 as well, because again, there is opportunity here for people to 243 00:13:56,520 --> 00:13:59,160 preach the Gospel and, and for the Lutherans listening, this is 244 00:13:59,160 --> 00:14:02,600 a great opportunity for us to go to our unchurched friends and 245 00:14:02,600 --> 00:14:04,640 say, hey, come with me to church. 246 00:14:05,000 --> 00:14:10,200 Come and see a traditional Divine Liturgy that's rooted in 247 00:14:10,200 --> 00:14:14,040 the historicity of Christianity. Yeah. 248 00:14:14,040 --> 00:14:17,480 So we're we're wanting to take the energy that's out there and 249 00:14:17,480 --> 00:14:20,840 channel it in a positive way, not quenching that energy, but 250 00:14:20,840 --> 00:14:24,440 just making sure that it's being led and directed and guided in, 251 00:14:24,440 --> 00:14:27,240 in more beneficial ways. Absolutely. 252 00:14:27,560 --> 00:14:31,600 Absolutely. And that's, I mean, that's 253 00:14:31,600 --> 00:14:33,560 ultimately the opportunity that we have. 254 00:14:34,160 --> 00:14:37,800 And this is where as as Lutheran's, we have, you know, 255 00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:39,680 when I came to the Lutheran Church, one of the things I 256 00:14:39,680 --> 00:14:43,000 loved was the doctrine of vocation because we have an open 257 00:14:43,000 --> 00:14:46,440 door here for the Gospel. And in times like this, the Kirk 258 00:14:46,440 --> 00:14:48,720 effect, as you called it, I love that phrasing. 259 00:14:48,720 --> 00:14:53,000 Keep that one it it really does give that opportunity in our 260 00:14:53,000 --> 00:14:56,840 vocations where with our coworkers, with our relatives, 261 00:14:57,080 --> 00:15:00,760 we can start opening up about Jesus Christ crucified for the 262 00:15:00,760 --> 00:15:02,760 forgiveness of sins, which is wonderful. 263 00:15:04,440 --> 00:15:08,240 So we've talked about kind of the emotional aspect to a lot of 264 00:15:08,240 --> 00:15:11,640 the things that went on in the memorial service itself, the 265 00:15:11,640 --> 00:15:15,440 more emotional appeals of of the music and that style to the 266 00:15:15,440 --> 00:15:18,560 emotional appeals of of the speakers that were given there. 267 00:15:19,000 --> 00:15:22,600 It seems like a lot of people who came into that without with 268 00:15:22,600 --> 00:15:25,200 an emotionally charged experience following Kirk's 269 00:15:25,200 --> 00:15:29,040 assassination, obviously, so perhaps turns to the memorial 270 00:15:29,040 --> 00:15:33,360 service and as kind of as as as channel for that emotional 271 00:15:33,360 --> 00:15:35,840 experience. How are we supposed to deal with 272 00:15:35,840 --> 00:15:40,200 these kind of emotions? Is it the right step to go from 273 00:15:40,200 --> 00:15:44,280 an emotionally charged political event into an emotionally 274 00:15:44,280 --> 00:15:47,200 charged worship service or memorial service? 275 00:15:48,320 --> 00:15:56,400 No, and that's the problem because we do not exercise good 276 00:15:56,400 --> 00:15:59,560 discernment and rational thought when we were are emotionalized. 277 00:16:00,160 --> 00:16:04,520 That's a dangerous thing. I'm sure you can relate to this, 278 00:16:04,520 --> 00:16:07,480 Caleb. I have met people who, for 279 00:16:07,480 --> 00:16:12,480 example, after a funeral, when a loved one has died, those people 280 00:16:12,480 --> 00:16:16,280 generally are so emotionally and traumatically affected that they 281 00:16:16,280 --> 00:16:20,400 do not always make rational or good decisions. 282 00:16:21,080 --> 00:16:24,600 And when you have something like this, when you have something 283 00:16:24,600 --> 00:16:27,760 of, of great emotion that triggers your emotions that they 284 00:16:27,760 --> 00:16:32,200 get you like this, you have to be very careful about, even 285 00:16:32,200 --> 00:16:34,960 though it's one of the hardest things to do because emotions 286 00:16:35,240 --> 00:16:38,400 can very easily override our logic if if we're not careful. 287 00:16:38,880 --> 00:16:42,120 But that's one of the dangerous things is that you can proceed 288 00:16:42,120 --> 00:16:43,880 emotionally. And it's like I was talking 289 00:16:43,880 --> 00:16:47,480 about I can proceed and go to a church that gives me this 290 00:16:47,720 --> 00:16:51,320 feeling, this I go in and this music is giving me this feeling, 291 00:16:51,320 --> 00:16:55,440 but it may be doctrinally vapid and useless. 292 00:16:55,800 --> 00:16:57,920 And that's where you get into the problem. 293 00:16:57,920 --> 00:17:01,080 You know, you go to a church like Bethel where you have that 294 00:17:01,080 --> 00:17:04,520 music like you would have heard at the at the Kirk funeral. 295 00:17:05,079 --> 00:17:07,480 And yes, you may get this wonderful feeling with the 296 00:17:07,480 --> 00:17:12,000 music, but you will get theology that is at at very least 297 00:17:12,000 --> 00:17:14,200 questionable and at very worst heretical. 298 00:17:14,839 --> 00:17:17,240 And that's where the problem comes. 299 00:17:17,240 --> 00:17:20,960 And and people unfortunately have to understand that we 300 00:17:20,960 --> 00:17:23,920 cannot make decisions on an emotional basis. 301 00:17:23,920 --> 00:17:26,480 We have to make them on a scriptural basis. 302 00:17:26,480 --> 00:17:28,920 And again, as Lutheran's, this is where we step in and we say, 303 00:17:29,600 --> 00:17:31,360 let's, let's show them Lutheranism. 304 00:17:33,200 --> 00:17:36,960 Yeah, one of the slogans that I've heard coming from the right 305 00:17:37,040 --> 00:17:41,440 a lot is facts don't care about your feelings or facts over 306 00:17:41,440 --> 00:17:44,440 feelings. And this very a rigid, more 307 00:17:44,440 --> 00:17:46,760 rational system of of approaching things. 308 00:17:47,000 --> 00:17:49,840 Now I don't know if if Charlie Kirk himself ever said that 309 00:17:49,840 --> 00:17:53,120 slogan, but certainly people he was associated with was. 310 00:17:53,600 --> 00:17:57,400 Why do you think that that slogan, Facts over feelings 311 00:17:57,680 --> 00:18:00,840 hasn't extended to worship to the where worship is now just 312 00:18:00,840 --> 00:18:03,200 purely an emotional aspect to it? 313 00:18:04,960 --> 00:18:08,160 Well, a lot of it is the stemming of, of what we've been 314 00:18:08,160 --> 00:18:09,240 building up. Like we talked about with the 315 00:18:09,240 --> 00:18:12,040 Great Awakening, whether intentional or not, there were 316 00:18:12,040 --> 00:18:16,840 these seeds planted where the goal was not necessarily 317 00:18:17,640 --> 00:18:21,240 conversion in the sense of of doctrine, but conversion in the 318 00:18:21,240 --> 00:18:24,480 sense of an emotional response. I mean, Caleb, you're probably 319 00:18:24,480 --> 00:18:27,120 more familiar with pietism in the study of pietism than I am. 320 00:18:27,120 --> 00:18:31,640 But even in Lutheranism, we went through this where we had Philip 321 00:18:31,680 --> 00:18:34,800 Jacob Spain or who basically laid the seeds for pietism that 322 00:18:35,120 --> 00:18:39,160 did a lot of these same things where it became more about not 323 00:18:39,600 --> 00:18:44,040 doctrine and not beliefs, but emotion and devotion and 324 00:18:44,040 --> 00:18:47,720 response and, and things that in some ways are very superficial. 325 00:18:48,520 --> 00:18:52,240 And of course, as conservatives, we do talk about, you know, you 326 00:18:52,240 --> 00:18:54,440 know, religious and political conservatives talk about like, 327 00:18:54,520 --> 00:18:56,640 like you said, facts don't care about your feelings. 328 00:18:57,360 --> 00:19:01,920 But the problem is we have to play that over into all aspects 329 00:19:01,920 --> 00:19:06,000 of our lives and, and we can't, especially in religion, because 330 00:19:06,000 --> 00:19:08,280 there's a there's a divide sometimes Caleb, and I don't 331 00:19:08,280 --> 00:19:10,720 know you can. I'd like you to answer to see if 332 00:19:10,840 --> 00:19:15,920 if you've seen this before, but I've met people who know their 333 00:19:15,920 --> 00:19:19,160 politics and their political points better than they do their 334 00:19:19,160 --> 00:19:23,600 Bible doctrine. Yeah, yeah, I've, I've seen that 335 00:19:23,600 --> 00:19:26,280 as well. And I think it is this kind of 336 00:19:26,680 --> 00:19:31,440 logical inconsistency to a certain extent where religion is 337 00:19:31,440 --> 00:19:34,080 seen as as something else, right? 338 00:19:34,080 --> 00:19:36,480 And in a certain extent, to a certain point, that's a good 339 00:19:36,480 --> 00:19:38,480 thing, right? Your, your religious expression 340 00:19:38,480 --> 00:19:42,080 and experience should be unlike anything else in your life. 341 00:19:42,080 --> 00:19:45,000 It is entirely unique. It's entirely special. 342 00:19:45,000 --> 00:19:46,520 It's, it's on a different playing field. 343 00:19:47,080 --> 00:19:50,680 On the other hand, that doesn't mean that all the rules are just 344 00:19:50,680 --> 00:19:53,400 kind of out the window and, and anything goes and, and nothing 345 00:19:53,400 --> 00:19:54,800 really matters anymore. There. 346 00:19:54,840 --> 00:19:58,440 There needs to be some kind of consistency with with how we 347 00:19:58,520 --> 00:20:01,400 live our lives and experience these these different segments 348 00:20:01,400 --> 00:20:04,200 of our life. Well, and that's exactly it. 349 00:20:04,200 --> 00:20:08,520 And in evangelicalism with these things, there's a sense in which 350 00:20:08,600 --> 00:20:13,640 evangelicalism has bought into the fringes of modernism and 351 00:20:13,640 --> 00:20:17,840 liberalism because doctrine is not as important. 352 00:20:17,840 --> 00:20:20,400 What's important is that we all quote, UN quote, love Jesus. 353 00:20:20,400 --> 00:20:23,760 Well, I can't tell you if you're loving Jesus, right? 354 00:20:23,760 --> 00:20:26,440 If you don't have a grasp of the doctrine behind that. 355 00:20:26,440 --> 00:20:29,760 I can't just say I love Jesus. If we love, and this is, this is 356 00:20:29,760 --> 00:20:32,960 a sentiment sometimes you'll get, well, does he love Jesus? 357 00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:36,280 Does she love Jesus? Well, saying you love Jesus 358 00:20:36,280 --> 00:20:39,600 means nothing if I don't have that Jesus defined by biblical 359 00:20:39,600 --> 00:20:41,640 doctrine. And therein lies one of the 360 00:20:41,640 --> 00:20:44,560 problems. And we should be taking our 361 00:20:44,560 --> 00:20:49,120 theology more seriously that than our politics. 362 00:20:49,520 --> 00:20:52,600 And in the case of the Kirk effect, where you have, and I 363 00:20:52,600 --> 00:20:54,640 know we're not talking about politics necessarily, but 364 00:20:54,640 --> 00:20:57,280 there's a sense in which the politics and the religion have 365 00:20:57,280 --> 00:21:00,080 become in some ways almost intertwined with him, 366 00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:03,760 intentionally or not. And on the one hand, you see 367 00:21:03,760 --> 00:21:07,000 people making these great stances for conservatism in a 368 00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:10,720 political sense, but you don't see that same effort and 369 00:21:10,720 --> 00:21:13,520 application to biblical Christianity. 370 00:21:15,400 --> 00:21:18,160 Yeah, I think you made a good point about the kind of blending 371 00:21:18,160 --> 00:21:21,120 between politics and religion that's going on here. 372 00:21:21,840 --> 00:21:24,720 And obviously that's what makes talking about this so difficult, 373 00:21:24,720 --> 00:21:28,080 is we want to address the the religious side, but try to avoid 374 00:21:28,080 --> 00:21:30,080 the the political side as much as we can. 375 00:21:30,600 --> 00:21:33,840 But before we delve into that a bit further, just wanted to to 376 00:21:33,840 --> 00:21:37,560 kind of wrap up our conversation about emotion here, because 377 00:21:37,560 --> 00:21:40,160 again, just like with the memorial service, we don't want 378 00:21:40,160 --> 00:21:43,880 to be seen as entirely critical or not seeing any good thing, 379 00:21:44,200 --> 00:21:45,720 right? So we we don't want to be 380 00:21:45,720 --> 00:21:49,480 entirely critical of emotional experiences and even emotional 381 00:21:49,480 --> 00:21:52,560 experiences and worship. But like we talked about with 382 00:21:52,560 --> 00:21:55,560 the energy flowing from the memorial service, how do we 383 00:21:55,560 --> 00:22:00,360 channel and correctly find a good place for emotion in our 384 00:22:00,360 --> 00:22:03,360 worship? Yeah, I I heard a pastor talk 385 00:22:03,360 --> 00:22:07,560 about striking while the iron is hot with this now what his 386 00:22:07,560 --> 00:22:09,920 intention was, I think. I think he was a Calvinist 387 00:22:10,480 --> 00:22:13,120 Baptist or something like that. I know he's a Calvinist, but his 388 00:22:13,160 --> 00:22:16,360 essential point is correct. This is an opportunity for us 389 00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:21,080 and it's an opportunity for us to take that like I was talking 390 00:22:21,080 --> 00:22:26,360 about and direct people to Jesus Christ and to direct people to 391 00:22:26,360 --> 00:22:31,440 confessional Christianity. And that is where the 392 00:22:31,440 --> 00:22:34,400 opportunity comes when you have these people asking questions, 393 00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:37,760 wanting to go to church, saying, hey, I haven't been here in a 394 00:22:37,760 --> 00:22:41,920 while and just the open door comes as possible. 395 00:22:42,680 --> 00:22:44,520 And so that's what you want to see happen. 396 00:22:45,600 --> 00:22:48,680 One of the things that happened about that, just kind of on a, 397 00:22:48,680 --> 00:22:51,880 on a tangent to what we were talking about, that the Sunday 398 00:22:51,880 --> 00:22:56,640 after that happened, our pastor Paul Schneider, who is who's our 399 00:22:56,640 --> 00:23:03,080 interim pastor, did a very, very good job of bringing up the 400 00:23:03,080 --> 00:23:09,000 assassination without letting the sermon become dictated by 401 00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:12,560 the assassination. It happened to fit in well with 402 00:23:12,560 --> 00:23:16,520 what he was preaching and he made a important but passing 403 00:23:16,520 --> 00:23:20,560 remark about Charlie's assassination and it was done in 404 00:23:20,560 --> 00:23:24,560 a very good way that flowed right into the theme of the 405 00:23:24,560 --> 00:23:29,000 homily based on the lectionary. So he did a very good job with 406 00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:31,200 that. Now, now, I got to ask you, 407 00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:35,400 Caleb, did anybody come to you before your church service 408 00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:40,920 asking you to preach about Charlie Kirk or afterwards say 409 00:23:40,920 --> 00:23:45,200 anything to you about it? No one asked me to mention Kirk. 410 00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:48,600 No one asked me to to pray for Kirk or his family. 411 00:23:48,920 --> 00:23:51,440 I did include them in our prayers in a more kind of 412 00:23:51,480 --> 00:23:54,800 general way, praying for those who are mourning, praying for 413 00:23:54,800 --> 00:23:57,920 for peace and justice without mentioning him by name. 414 00:23:58,240 --> 00:24:01,600 I did have a number of people who expressed their kind of 415 00:24:01,840 --> 00:24:05,240 emotionally distraught state following these events. 416 00:24:05,720 --> 00:24:07,600 So, yeah, I think what what you're saying is spot on. 417 00:24:07,840 --> 00:24:10,200 We want to channel that emotion in in the right way. 418 00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:13,920 We want to use this emotionally charged situation as an 419 00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:16,640 opportunity to to meet people where they're at and talk to 420 00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:19,600 their emotions. But do that, avoiding these 421 00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:23,080 these political things and and make it an opportunity to to 422 00:24:23,120 --> 00:24:26,040 confront them with the gospel and and the comfort that only 423 00:24:26,520 --> 00:24:28,600 the cross of Christ can really offer to people. 424 00:24:29,760 --> 00:24:34,080 And also to avoid the evangelical trick of reeling 425 00:24:34,080 --> 00:24:39,320 them in solely by emotion too. That's what sets confessional 426 00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:43,960 Christianity apart from a lot of what you see in these modern big 427 00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:47,120 box non denominational evangelical movements. 428 00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:49,200 We're not reeling you in with emotion. 429 00:24:49,360 --> 00:24:53,720 We're reeling you in with the conviction that we are sinners 430 00:24:53,720 --> 00:24:57,040 and that we need salvation. And again, to be fair, there was 431 00:24:57,320 --> 00:24:59,640 there was that was talked about at the memorial. 432 00:25:00,120 --> 00:25:02,880 But the gospel is not just an entrance ticket. 433 00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:05,880 This is where this is one of the things that I love about 434 00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:09,120 Lutheranism is I don't talk about Jesus saves, Jesus 435 00:25:09,120 --> 00:25:12,180 forgives. And then once you quote UN 436 00:25:12,180 --> 00:25:15,320 quote, make that decision for Jesus, OK, now it's all law. 437 00:25:15,320 --> 00:25:19,160 Now it's all you know, the gospel is for the person who's 438 00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:21,320 outside of the church. Now for you, it's all law. 439 00:25:21,320 --> 00:25:24,520 Now it's all make sure you're still feeling that emotion and 440 00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:27,880 having those experiences and serving your neighbor to the to 441 00:25:27,880 --> 00:25:33,080 the point where grace becomes either seriously minimized or in 442 00:25:33,080 --> 00:25:37,000 some cases just outright ignore. And that is one of the things 443 00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:39,240 that Lutheran is going to do is we can say, you know, the gospel 444 00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:41,280 is not just the entrance to get into the church. 445 00:25:41,520 --> 00:25:45,120 The gospel and grace and forgiveness stays with you. 446 00:25:45,120 --> 00:25:47,440 And this is where the sacraments come in. 447 00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:52,440 Because when we have a tangible place where we can meet God, I 448 00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:54,760 don't need to rely on that emotionalism. 449 00:25:54,760 --> 00:25:57,680 I don't need to rely on those other things. 450 00:25:57,680 --> 00:26:01,760 I can rely on Jesus Christ and what He has promised in His Word 451 00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:05,600 for us, which is wonderful. Yeah. 452 00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:08,680 So you said that your pastor mentioned Charlie Kirk in 453 00:26:08,680 --> 00:26:12,200 passing kind of as as a transition and a segue to 454 00:26:12,520 --> 00:26:14,520 perhaps what he was going to talk about anyways. 455 00:26:15,040 --> 00:26:19,440 I didn't mentioned Charlie Kirk at all by name, but part of what 456 00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:23,080 we've seen with this blending of religion and politics is I've 457 00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:26,640 seen a number of people online say, you know, if your pastor 458 00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:30,440 didn't talk about Charlie Kirk, if the sermon that you heard 459 00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:33,880 this Sunday wasn't about Charlie Kirk, you need to leave and you 460 00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:37,400 need to find a new church. What's what's the danger of 461 00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:39,400 that? And how should we respond to 462 00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:43,440 that impulse? Well, the first and most obvious 463 00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:46,160 thing is that church is not about Charlie Kirk. 464 00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:49,440 Church is about Jesus Christ. I don't think I've mentioned 465 00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:51,880 this to you before, but when I went to the Independent 466 00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:55,960 Fundamentalist Baptist Church, we actually had two sermons. 467 00:26:56,840 --> 00:27:00,360 We would usually right after the first section of hymn singing, 468 00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:05,320 the head pastor would come up and he would have read something 469 00:27:05,320 --> 00:27:09,200 in the newspaper or he would have seen something on 470 00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:14,160 television and he preached like a 20 minute mini sermon before 471 00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:16,320 his regular sermon based on whatever he saw. 472 00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:18,200 And it was usually a cultural thing. 473 00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:22,720 And the problem is that cultural thing sometimes became more 474 00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:25,120 dominant than the scriptures themselves. 475 00:27:25,120 --> 00:27:28,040 I mean, yes, he would refer back to the thing scripturally, but 476 00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:31,720 what happens to the churches? It becomes a event of the week 477 00:27:31,720 --> 00:27:34,200 thing. Do we start tossing out the 478 00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:37,760 lectionary and then just start watching CNN or Fox News or 479 00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:42,760 MSNBC or whatever and and using that as the grounds for our 480 00:27:42,760 --> 00:27:45,480 services or for what we're going to say in our homilies. 481 00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:49,360 The purpose of the lectionary is to give us the whole of 482 00:27:49,360 --> 00:27:53,040 scriptural doctrine, but as a side benefit and also prevents 483 00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:56,680 the pastor from running to hobby horses or falling into the 484 00:27:56,680 --> 00:28:00,560 temptation of looking for, you know, topic of the week. 485 00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:04,160 It keeps the pastor focused. And that's a really wonderful 486 00:28:04,160 --> 00:28:06,880 thing that confessional churches have. 487 00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:11,120 And unfortunately, I've seen people say online, if if your 488 00:28:11,120 --> 00:28:13,680 pastor did not mention Charlie Kirk, you need to go to a 489 00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:18,400 different church because again, there's that entanglement of 490 00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:20,680 what we've got to talk about the political. 491 00:28:21,160 --> 00:28:25,520 And again, we don't ignore the political as Christians. 492 00:28:25,920 --> 00:28:28,560 But that's not why we're there. We're there for Christ, 493 00:28:28,560 --> 00:28:30,640 crucified for the forgiveness of sins. 494 00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:33,160 Yeah. And like we said before, 495 00:28:33,160 --> 00:28:36,320 certainly what we want to address people's emotions and 496 00:28:36,320 --> 00:28:40,400 and to speak to that experience. But if we let everything we do 497 00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:43,320 from Sunday to Sunday be dictated by by the newspaper 498 00:28:43,320 --> 00:28:45,680 instead of the Bible that then we're not really going to go 499 00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:47,440 anywhere. And, and especially a lot of 500 00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:51,120 that seems to be predicated on just kind of outrage. 501 00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:54,240 And here's this bad thing going on in the world that we need to 502 00:28:54,240 --> 00:28:56,480 preach against. And obviously that's only going 503 00:28:56,480 --> 00:29:00,040 to contribute to a a more politically charged climate like 504 00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:02,000 the 1:00 we we find ourselves in today. 505 00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:06,240 Now, Caleb, I can I ask you from a pastor's perspective, is that 506 00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:09,080 a temptation? Is that something like when you 507 00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:12,200 get up in the pulpit, is there a temptation to say, oh, I saw 508 00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:16,760 this on the TV or I read this on the Internet and I need to 509 00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:19,400 shoehorn this into my sermon? Is that is that something that 510 00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:26,320 preachers struggle with at all? For me personally, it is not, I 511 00:29:26,320 --> 00:29:30,640 kind of intentionally stay away from news so that if someone 512 00:29:30,640 --> 00:29:33,880 starts talking about whatever I don't have, you know, I don't 513 00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:36,600 have to try to suppress my own emotions or my own thoughts that 514 00:29:36,600 --> 00:29:39,160 much. So for me, I I try to stay 515 00:29:39,160 --> 00:29:42,720 ignorant to a certain extent just to kind of knowing that 516 00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:44,320 that temptation could be present. 517 00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:48,760 So ignorance is bliss. Yeah. 518 00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:51,840 And, and certainly not that, you know, Christianity doesn't 519 00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:55,200 influence political views, but if you're letting political 520 00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:57,920 views influence your Christianity, that's kind of 521 00:29:57,920 --> 00:30:01,120 going the wrong direction. Well, and that leads to the 522 00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:04,640 point about the political people knowing their politics better 523 00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:10,200 than their doctrine, because people do want to see AI and I 524 00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:12,080 hate that the term Christian nation talking about. 525 00:30:12,080 --> 00:30:14,160 We want we want to as Lutheran's, we want to see a 526 00:30:14,160 --> 00:30:18,640 nation full of Christians. And The thing is, if you want 527 00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:22,280 that nation full of Christians, instead of concentrating on the 528 00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:27,800 political, concentrate on the spiritual because at best just, 529 00:30:27,800 --> 00:30:30,240 and I know this is getting a little off, but but the thing 530 00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:33,840 with the like with the Christian nationalist movement is that it 531 00:30:33,840 --> 00:30:37,200 puts the cart before the horse and that it wants to see the 532 00:30:37,200 --> 00:30:39,840 culture change. And what people don't understand 533 00:30:39,840 --> 00:30:44,560 is if you concentrate on the transforming power of the gospel 534 00:30:44,560 --> 00:30:47,240 and the conversion of souls to Christ and baptizing people into 535 00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:51,200 Christ, that in itself will lead to a cultural change. 536 00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:57,040 And that should be the focus. And that's where the focus for 537 00:30:57,040 --> 00:30:59,400 the church ought to be in that. Again, that's where Lutheranism 538 00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:02,440 comes in, because people will say, well, I want to see us go 539 00:31:02,440 --> 00:31:05,640 back to traditional values and we say, come to Christ. 540 00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:09,160 Come to know that you are a Sinner and that you need Jesus 541 00:31:09,160 --> 00:31:13,120 Christ and come to walk in faith, and those things will 542 00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:18,280 follow as a result. Yeah, cultural changes is really 543 00:31:18,280 --> 00:31:22,120 only achievable by a more grassroots bottom up approach, 544 00:31:22,120 --> 00:31:27,120 one that's powered by the gospel and by one the conversion of 1 545 00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:30,200 Sinner at a time and and not a a top down thing, right. 546 00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:32,560 You can't legislate your way into the Gospel. 547 00:31:32,760 --> 00:31:36,600 Certain, you can legislate morality to a certain extent, 548 00:31:36,600 --> 00:31:41,160 you can legislate certain laws, but but you can't legislate the 549 00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:43,720 Gospel in that same way. That's that's just not how how 550 00:31:43,720 --> 00:31:46,680 it all works. Yes, absolutely. 551 00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:50,680 So one other political point that I've seen kind of going 552 00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:53,400 along with that, going along with these kind of cultural 553 00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:56,440 issues that that are concerning or being addressed, is there's 554 00:31:56,440 --> 00:32:00,160 this notion and this idea that we need to work towards 555 00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:04,720 preserving Western culture or preserving Western civilization. 556 00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:08,720 With the conversations that we've had before about how this 557 00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:11,840 is manifesting itself religiously in these movements. 558 00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:14,240 Is that fitting? Is that coherent? 559 00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:17,960 And how do we, as Lutheran's fit into this larger conversation 560 00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:19,880 about Western civilization and culture? 561 00:32:21,320 --> 00:32:23,760 This goes back to what I said about Christian nationalism. 562 00:32:23,760 --> 00:32:27,440 It it's putting the cart before the horse because it's looking 563 00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:29,520 at the tree, saying you want to see save the tree. 564 00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:31,320 Well, if you want to save the tree, you have to start at the 565 00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:33,800 root. And the root of that Western 566 00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:38,440 civilization is Christianity. But I'll take it a step further 567 00:32:38,440 --> 00:32:44,000 in that, yes, I want Western civilization preserved, but the 568 00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:47,720 goal is to bring people to the Christian faith. 569 00:32:47,720 --> 00:32:50,600 They have a vibrant Christian faith that is converting souls, 570 00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:53,120 that is, that is reaching out with the gospel. 571 00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:56,720 That's the cause. The result is the benefits of 572 00:32:56,720 --> 00:32:58,680 Western civilization that we see. 573 00:32:59,520 --> 00:33:06,040 To do that, we have to have a mind set on bringing people to 574 00:33:06,040 --> 00:33:10,680 Jesus Christ in our vocations, witnessing the people, inviting 575 00:33:10,680 --> 00:33:13,000 people to church. And The thing is, Caleb, and you 576 00:33:13,000 --> 00:33:15,240 know, this is a pastor, this starts locally. 577 00:33:15,640 --> 00:33:20,200 I mean, I can talk about how bad DC is, but what good does that 578 00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:24,560 in one sense do me if I'm not taking doors open with my 579 00:33:24,560 --> 00:33:26,920 neighbor to to bring them to church? 580 00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:31,760 That is far more important and far more in some, in some ways 581 00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:35,600 more vital than anything that happens in Capitol Hill. 582 00:33:35,960 --> 00:33:40,440 At least that's how I take it. Yeah, so we've talked about 583 00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:44,160 cultural change and how to affect this kind of cultural 584 00:33:44,160 --> 00:33:47,000 change. How do we as Lutheran's fit into 585 00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:51,480 this larger conversation about preserving Western culture? 586 00:33:52,680 --> 00:33:56,320 Oh, because we've got the gospel and people hear this and they 587 00:33:56,320 --> 00:33:57,840 think that we're being arrogant. It's not. 588 00:33:57,840 --> 00:34:00,720 We have the most correct doctrine in accordance with the 589 00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:05,160 Word of God. Western culture is based on the 590 00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:07,720 especially the good aspects of it, Christianity. 591 00:34:08,080 --> 00:34:11,159 Christianity is based on the personal work of Jesus Christ 592 00:34:11,560 --> 00:34:13,520 and we find all this in the Word of God. 593 00:34:13,960 --> 00:34:20,199 In Lutheranism we have that preserved because we took the 594 00:34:20,199 --> 00:34:21,960 Book of Concord and we just didn't throw a bunch of 595 00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:23,719 doctrines together. We looked at the Scriptures. 596 00:34:23,719 --> 00:34:26,120 We, our Lutheran forefathers, looked at the Scriptures. 597 00:34:26,320 --> 00:34:29,000 They look at what is Christianity, what is the 598 00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:32,760 Scripture saying, and they delineated that out for us in 599 00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:36,280 the Book of Concord. Our place as Lutheran's is to be 600 00:34:36,280 --> 00:34:40,480 Lutheran and to invite as many people as possible to join us in 601 00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:43,440 confessional Lutheranism, because that will go much 602 00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:47,719 further than any social or societal change that we try to 603 00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:52,760 enact apart from Christianity. We just had an outreach thing, 604 00:34:52,760 --> 00:34:56,639 Caleb, where we had this fall fest and we didn't have a ton of 605 00:34:56,639 --> 00:35:00,520 people come in, but we had people come in who'd never been 606 00:35:00,920 --> 00:35:03,880 to our church and it was an opportunity for them to come 607 00:35:03,880 --> 00:35:05,440 back. And we've had people who've come 608 00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:08,600 back and started attending the church because of things we've 609 00:35:08,600 --> 00:35:10,920 done in the past like this. And it's been absolutely 610 00:35:10,920 --> 00:35:12,880 wonderful. It's not, you know, meteoric 611 00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:14,800 growth. But I want to say this too. 612 00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:17,160 I think we, we're impatient as Americans. 613 00:35:17,160 --> 00:35:18,800 We want to do everything in a generation. 614 00:35:18,800 --> 00:35:21,240 We all, we want to do everything in a, in a five year plan. 615 00:35:21,680 --> 00:35:26,360 And the truth of the matter is what we sow as seeds for 616 00:35:26,360 --> 00:35:29,480 confessional Lutheranism. We may not live to see those in 617 00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:31,520 a future generation that the Lord tarries. 618 00:35:31,920 --> 00:35:34,480 So it, it's a matter of just being faithful. 619 00:35:34,480 --> 00:35:37,360 I mean, ultimately we just, we have to be faithful no matter 620 00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:40,760 what. So would you say that the 621 00:35:40,760 --> 00:35:45,120 contemporary emotional worship such that was on display at 622 00:35:45,120 --> 00:35:48,520 Charlie Kirk's memorial service, would you say that that is 623 00:35:48,560 --> 00:35:52,880 coherent and flows well with these notions of Western culture 624 00:35:52,880 --> 00:35:55,640 and civilization, or is it incoherent? 625 00:35:55,640 --> 00:35:59,240 Is is there a disconnect there? Oh, there's definitely a 626 00:35:59,400 --> 00:36:03,680 disconnect because it was talked about Western civilization. 627 00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:08,360 The real Western civilization, as we as Christians want to see, 628 00:36:08,360 --> 00:36:13,640 is not based on emotionalism. When you look at this modern 629 00:36:13,760 --> 00:36:17,560 worship, you see emotionalism. I remember reading something 630 00:36:17,560 --> 00:36:20,320 from a man in the Eastern Orthodox Church and he basically 631 00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:24,080 said if you want to know our theology, look at our liturgy. 632 00:36:24,120 --> 00:36:27,720 And he in some ways was absolutely right because you 633 00:36:27,720 --> 00:36:34,640 look at the liturgy of a modern non denominational, charismatic 634 00:36:34,640 --> 00:36:38,440 slash hyper charismatic church. It's not built on those things 635 00:36:38,440 --> 00:36:41,840 that Western civilization is founded upon. 636 00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:46,840 It's founded upon emotionalism. It's founded upon enthusiasm. 637 00:36:46,840 --> 00:36:50,880 As Luther said, God in me, I'm looking in these worship 638 00:36:50,880 --> 00:36:56,080 services which I've sat in, I'm looking for some experience. 639 00:36:56,080 --> 00:36:58,120 I'm not looking for God objectively. 640 00:36:58,120 --> 00:37:00,080 I'm looking for whether I feel good or not. 641 00:37:00,320 --> 00:37:03,200 And if at the end of the service I didn't quote UN quote feel the 642 00:37:03,200 --> 00:37:06,400 spirit, I will go so far as to question whether or not I'm 643 00:37:06,400 --> 00:37:08,600 really safe. And I've seen this happen 644 00:37:08,600 --> 00:37:10,480 before. I felt it happened before to 645 00:37:10,480 --> 00:37:13,000 myself. So no, it is not. 646 00:37:13,240 --> 00:37:17,320 And this is one of the dangers in Turning Point USA, Charlie's 647 00:37:17,320 --> 00:37:20,320 organization. There are a lot of people in 648 00:37:20,320 --> 00:37:24,560 that organization who subscribe to this hyper charismatic, and 649 00:37:24,560 --> 00:37:27,400 some of them Even so far as saying Word of Faith prosperity 650 00:37:27,400 --> 00:37:29,320 stuff. I don't know, Charlie Kirk did. 651 00:37:29,320 --> 00:37:31,360 I don't think he did, at least I hope he didn't. 652 00:37:31,600 --> 00:37:34,200 But there are people in the organization, it's been 653 00:37:34,200 --> 00:37:36,080 documented, who follow along with this stuff. 654 00:37:36,280 --> 00:37:40,520 And this bleeds through in the worship that is presented that 655 00:37:40,520 --> 00:37:43,920 we saw in the memorial and that when you go to a big box church, 656 00:37:43,920 --> 00:37:45,840 it's that same sort of sentiment. 657 00:37:45,840 --> 00:37:50,360 I mean, Caleb, tell me, when you're singing a Lutheran hymn, 658 00:37:51,840 --> 00:37:54,560 you're not distracted by anything else, are you? 659 00:37:54,560 --> 00:37:56,240 You're not distracted by your feelings, are you? 660 00:37:56,560 --> 00:37:58,120 You know, you're singing the lyrics. 661 00:37:58,520 --> 00:38:01,400 It's far easier to concentrate lyrically on what's being said 662 00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:03,720 when it's just an organ. Would you agree with that? 663 00:38:05,080 --> 00:38:07,600 Yeah. So there is this certain aspect 664 00:38:07,600 --> 00:38:10,640 of if these were contemporary settings where just the musical 665 00:38:10,640 --> 00:38:14,400 style inherently lends itself towards more emotional 666 00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:17,000 expression. On the other hand, sometimes you 667 00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:19,920 sing a Lutheran corral and it's hard not to get emotional. 668 00:38:20,120 --> 00:38:21,960 All right. But is is that the main point 669 00:38:21,960 --> 00:38:25,080 and goal of it? Or is that a but perhaps 670 00:38:25,080 --> 00:38:27,600 felicitous byproduct? Right. 671 00:38:27,600 --> 00:38:32,360 And in the case of our Lutheran hymns, our emotion comes from, I 672 00:38:32,360 --> 00:38:36,040 mean, yes, it can to a point be done for music, but whenever 673 00:38:36,040 --> 00:38:38,800 I've been moved by a Lutheran hymn, it's because of what's 674 00:38:38,840 --> 00:38:42,000 being said. There is something doctrinally 675 00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:44,360 asserted. And, and The thing is, doctrine 676 00:38:44,360 --> 00:38:47,280 is not a cold thing. It is a living, breathing thing 677 00:38:47,280 --> 00:38:51,320 from God that changes us. Sound doctrine is not just 678 00:38:51,400 --> 00:38:54,000 information. It is something that is meant to 679 00:38:54,000 --> 00:38:56,080 be practically applied and understood. 680 00:38:56,520 --> 00:39:01,120 And I have had that emotional response when singing a hymn, 681 00:39:01,520 --> 00:39:04,800 but that's not the focus. If I don't have that emotional 682 00:39:04,800 --> 00:39:08,720 response, I'm not worried about it because, again, good Lutheran 683 00:39:08,720 --> 00:39:10,840 hymns are basically sermons set from music. 684 00:39:11,360 --> 00:39:13,920 And when I don't have that emotion, I don't worry about it 685 00:39:13,920 --> 00:39:16,240 because I know I'm getting fed spiritually. 686 00:39:16,640 --> 00:39:21,600 And I can tell you stories of these songs in contemporary 687 00:39:21,600 --> 00:39:27,280 worship where the lyrics are Jesus is my boyfriend lyrics, as 688 00:39:27,280 --> 00:39:29,960 I like to say. You have that feel to them. 689 00:39:30,320 --> 00:39:33,480 I've heard songs where you could play it on a secular, the radio 690 00:39:33,480 --> 00:39:36,920 station and you'd have no idea that I was a Christian song. 691 00:39:37,200 --> 00:39:40,400 And there's that danger because when you have emotionalized 692 00:39:40,400 --> 00:39:45,320 songs that that use pop culture and pop song construction, you 693 00:39:45,320 --> 00:39:49,400 can bypass the intellect very easily and you can get no 694 00:39:49,400 --> 00:39:53,520 theology or sometimes even bad theology in these songs. 695 00:39:53,560 --> 00:39:57,240 And Lutheranism, our liturgical structure and our hymnal 696 00:39:57,240 --> 00:40:00,280 structure and our worship doesn't allow for that because 697 00:40:00,480 --> 00:40:03,680 you have to focus on what you're singing lyrically. 698 00:40:03,840 --> 00:40:07,080 And that's what I love, because we have songs that focused on 699 00:40:07,080 --> 00:40:09,400 death. We have songs that focus on our 700 00:40:09,400 --> 00:40:12,120 relationship with Jesus. We have songs that focus on 701 00:40:12,120 --> 00:40:16,080 communion, on baptism, on sound doctrine, on things in the 702 00:40:16,080 --> 00:40:18,080 church. And it's absolutely wonderful. 703 00:40:18,240 --> 00:40:21,600 So it engages the mind, and if it engages the emotion as the, 704 00:40:21,600 --> 00:40:24,440 well, that's great, but that's not the purpose of it. 705 00:40:25,880 --> 00:40:26,640 Yeah. Thank you for that. 706 00:40:27,880 --> 00:40:31,840 So we started our conversation talking about the Kirk effect, 707 00:40:31,840 --> 00:40:34,240 right? This religious revival following 708 00:40:34,240 --> 00:40:36,760 the, the assassination and the memorial service. 709 00:40:37,120 --> 00:40:40,160 And to start, we just kind of accepted that premise, accepted 710 00:40:40,160 --> 00:40:43,360 that was was the thing that was going on for, for the sake of 711 00:40:43,360 --> 00:40:45,680 conversation. But maybe looking at that more 712 00:40:45,680 --> 00:40:49,800 critically now, do you think that a legitimate revival is, is 713 00:40:49,800 --> 00:40:52,480 happening is, is going on? What are your what's your 714 00:40:52,480 --> 00:40:54,480 thoughts? Oh boy. 715 00:40:56,640 --> 00:41:00,240 I don't like the word revival. And part of the reason why I 716 00:41:00,240 --> 00:41:04,720 don't like the word revival is because of the baggage that goes 717 00:41:04,720 --> 00:41:07,960 along with it regarding modern evangelicalism. 718 00:41:07,960 --> 00:41:11,480 Because again, revival to some people, many people is an 719 00:41:11,480 --> 00:41:16,560 emotional outburst of some sort or somebody walking forward on 720 00:41:16,560 --> 00:41:19,560 the altar. I I prefer the term conversion 721 00:41:19,880 --> 00:41:24,360 or reformation, but as far as this is happening, it's a mixed 722 00:41:24,360 --> 00:41:27,000 bag. I have no doubt that God is 723 00:41:27,000 --> 00:41:31,280 using a situation like this to bring people the gospel. 724 00:41:31,640 --> 00:41:34,400 I also have no doubt that there are dangers and pitfalls. 725 00:41:34,680 --> 00:41:37,920 I explained it like this and I say this with all due respect to 726 00:41:37,920 --> 00:41:41,120 Billy Graham. I believe that people who heard 727 00:41:41,120 --> 00:41:43,640 Billy Graham preach. I'm sure there are people who 728 00:41:43,640 --> 00:41:46,520 were saved. I also know that Billy Graham 729 00:41:46,520 --> 00:41:52,360 had doctrinal and practical positions which were heterodox 730 00:41:52,360 --> 00:41:54,520 and in some cases flirted with heresy. 731 00:41:55,040 --> 00:41:59,880 So it's always a mixed bag. And thanks be to God, he works 732 00:41:59,880 --> 00:42:04,080 in those mixed bag situations to even bring people to conversion 733 00:42:04,080 --> 00:42:07,640 in Jesus Christ. But that doesn't mean the 734 00:42:07,640 --> 00:42:11,680 situation as a whole doesn't need reform, or doesn't need to 735 00:42:11,680 --> 00:42:15,200 be analyzed, or doesn't need to be examined. 736 00:42:15,200 --> 00:42:19,760 So I do believe that God will use this situation at the same 737 00:42:19,760 --> 00:42:22,080 time he expects us to be discerning. 738 00:42:22,080 --> 00:42:25,720 First, John 4 says don't believe every spirit, but test the 739 00:42:25,720 --> 00:42:27,840 spirits to see whether they are of God. 740 00:42:27,840 --> 00:42:31,200 And God does not expect us to go blindly to any situation. 741 00:42:31,520 --> 00:42:34,640 We use discernment even when we perceive something good is 742 00:42:34,640 --> 00:42:38,440 happening. Do you think the Kirk effect 743 00:42:38,440 --> 00:42:42,840 will be a lasting effect? I don't think so. 744 00:42:43,680 --> 00:42:46,320 After 911 happened, there was this huge spike in church 745 00:42:46,320 --> 00:42:50,080 attendance for a few months and then that Peter off and I have 746 00:42:50,080 --> 00:42:52,960 yet to see any quote UN quote lasting movement. 747 00:42:52,960 --> 00:42:56,680 Now, I do believe there are people who will be converted who 748 00:42:56,680 --> 00:43:01,040 will have lasting conversions, to be certain. 749 00:43:01,040 --> 00:43:03,400 Absolutely. I have no doubt that that 750 00:43:03,400 --> 00:43:06,520 happens. But you can't rely on an 751 00:43:06,520 --> 00:43:10,000 emotional moment or a cataclysmic effect to have 752 00:43:10,000 --> 00:43:12,360 lasting conversions because people's memories fade. 753 00:43:13,040 --> 00:43:14,440 Those things eventually fade out. 754 00:43:14,760 --> 00:43:17,680 I remember when I, when I was in the Independent Fundamentalist 755 00:43:17,680 --> 00:43:21,360 Baptist Church, we had a, again, I don't like the word, but we 756 00:43:21,360 --> 00:43:24,960 had a quote UN quote revival. And we had the student body. 757 00:43:24,960 --> 00:43:28,680 This was in October. Everybody was blubbering and 758 00:43:28,680 --> 00:43:32,040 crying and people were coming up and giving testimonies and 759 00:43:32,040 --> 00:43:34,920 everybody was so happy. And I remember about a week 760 00:43:34,920 --> 00:43:38,200 later, our history teacher pulled a society said, you know 761 00:43:38,200 --> 00:43:41,240 what? I'm glad to see this, but you 762 00:43:41,240 --> 00:43:43,160 can't just write on those emotions. 763 00:43:43,400 --> 00:43:47,400 Eventually there's a point where you have to keep up with this 764 00:43:47,400 --> 00:43:48,960 when you're not quote UN quote, feeling it. 765 00:43:49,440 --> 00:43:53,840 And by the end of that school year, we were no different than 766 00:43:53,840 --> 00:43:56,240 we were before then. In fact, some people, I think 767 00:43:56,240 --> 00:44:01,280 we're actually worse. So that is something that you 768 00:44:01,280 --> 00:44:04,960 can't rely on those. I think it was GH Gerberting, he 769 00:44:04,960 --> 00:44:08,280 was quoting a Presbyterian minister, but he he talked about 770 00:44:08,280 --> 00:44:14,000 how good catechesis does far more than any revival moment. 771 00:44:14,080 --> 00:44:17,320 So while these things are used, the goal should always be to be 772 00:44:17,320 --> 00:44:22,760 focused on constant catechesis, constant Bible reading, and and 773 00:44:22,760 --> 00:44:25,320 a slow burn as opposed to just flaming out for something like 774 00:44:25,320 --> 00:44:27,560 this. Yeah, it does. 775 00:44:27,560 --> 00:44:28,760 Thank you. So, yeah, right. 776 00:44:28,760 --> 00:44:33,120 If politics is what's pushing someone to attend church, well, 777 00:44:33,120 --> 00:44:36,280 the next thing's the newest thing comes up in the news cycle 778 00:44:36,280 --> 00:44:39,560 or this one falls out of common thought and prevalence, then 779 00:44:39,680 --> 00:44:41,000 what else are you going to do with that? 780 00:44:41,000 --> 00:44:43,840 Right. The only way to really feed on 781 00:44:43,840 --> 00:44:46,920 that is be if you bring up the politics every week just to keep 782 00:44:46,920 --> 00:44:49,000 people hooked in with that. And that's certainly not what 783 00:44:49,000 --> 00:44:52,040 we're trying to do. What we do want to do is use 784 00:44:52,040 --> 00:44:55,760 this political event as an opportunity to connect people 785 00:44:55,760 --> 00:44:57,840 with the right reasons. Right to connect people with the 786 00:44:57,840 --> 00:45:01,600 gospel so that there will be lasting conversions and not just 787 00:45:01,600 --> 00:45:05,040 this flare up precipitated by more political events. 788 00:45:05,840 --> 00:45:09,560 Well, I'll flip this on its head because if you remember last 789 00:45:09,560 --> 00:45:11,080 week the rapture was supposed to happen. 790 00:45:11,560 --> 00:45:17,200 Some Yahoo made this prediction that September 23rd or 24th the 791 00:45:17,200 --> 00:45:20,120 rapture was supposed to happen the the coming of Jesus Christ. 792 00:45:20,120 --> 00:45:22,880 Obviously we don't believe in the dispensational idea of the 793 00:45:22,880 --> 00:45:25,720 rapture, but he said that Jesus was supposed to come back. 794 00:45:26,400 --> 00:45:29,800 And just as we have events that drive people to Christ, there 795 00:45:29,800 --> 00:45:32,440 are events like this that drive people away from Christ. 796 00:45:32,760 --> 00:45:35,680 And there's a danger in things like this as well. 797 00:45:35,840 --> 00:45:39,240 So we can't count on events one way or the other because there 798 00:45:39,240 --> 00:45:44,520 will always be a danger in that, like with this, because this 799 00:45:44,520 --> 00:45:46,560 could just as easily drive people away from the faith. 800 00:45:46,560 --> 00:45:50,120 And the thing I fear about with the Kirk Effect is with people 801 00:45:50,480 --> 00:45:54,360 running to faith, they have an interest in Christianity, but 802 00:45:54,360 --> 00:45:58,880 then they get in sold into a bad confession and then they're 803 00:45:58,880 --> 00:46:02,400 driven out of the faith or or they're given a false sense of 804 00:46:02,400 --> 00:46:05,480 Christianity. So the point I was trying to 805 00:46:05,480 --> 00:46:08,480 make there was that we have these events and just as quickly 806 00:46:08,480 --> 00:46:10,560 as we can have good events, we can also have bad events that 807 00:46:10,560 --> 00:46:14,520 can drive people out. What's the connection, do you 808 00:46:14,520 --> 00:46:18,680 think, between the Kirk Effect as this larger cultural movement 809 00:46:18,960 --> 00:46:22,560 and also the prevalence or interest in contemporary 810 00:46:22,560 --> 00:46:27,840 worship? Well, the modern contemporary 811 00:46:27,840 --> 00:46:31,240 worship is the face of American evangelicalism right now. 812 00:46:31,240 --> 00:46:35,520 That's part of the problem is that it's so prevalent that you 813 00:46:35,520 --> 00:46:38,400 think Christian music. Most people think of K Love or 814 00:46:38,400 --> 00:46:42,000 Air 1, where you hear all this contemporary worship being 815 00:46:42,000 --> 00:46:46,920 played and the Kirk effect in one sense as furthered that. 816 00:46:46,920 --> 00:46:49,800 Because like I said, the three singers on there are people who 817 00:46:49,800 --> 00:46:53,400 have been featured very prevalently on these radio 818 00:46:53,400 --> 00:46:57,720 stations and in the process they've bumped their popularity. 819 00:46:58,000 --> 00:47:01,760 And and the problem is this is Christianity to most people. 820 00:47:01,760 --> 00:47:04,200 This is what they see their friends and neighbors going to a 821 00:47:04,200 --> 00:47:07,000 lot of them going to these big box churches. 822 00:47:07,480 --> 00:47:09,720 And again, this is the opportunity for Lutheranism to 823 00:47:09,720 --> 00:47:13,240 come in and say this is not historic Christianity. 824 00:47:13,400 --> 00:47:16,360 We have a much more historic Christianity. 825 00:47:16,360 --> 00:47:19,840 Come join us. Let it show you what Jesus meant 826 00:47:19,840 --> 00:47:22,880 when He said that he who believes and is baptized would 827 00:47:22,880 --> 00:47:26,400 be saved when he said this is my body, this is my blood. 828 00:47:26,640 --> 00:47:30,280 We put our faith in the promises of Jesus Christ that are 829 00:47:30,280 --> 00:47:34,240 objective and grounded and not in a subjective feeling as to 830 00:47:34,240 --> 00:47:38,160 whether or not we are feeling something or raising our hands 831 00:47:38,160 --> 00:47:41,000 in worship and having an emotional experience and 832 00:47:41,000 --> 00:47:42,560 confusing that with the Holy Spirit. 833 00:47:42,960 --> 00:47:48,080 God has promised to be with us in Word and sacrament, and we 834 00:47:48,080 --> 00:47:51,320 can anchor people in that. The problem with American 835 00:47:51,320 --> 00:47:54,240 evangelicalism, with the Kirk Effect, is that it's open this 836 00:47:54,240 --> 00:47:58,560 door for people, yes, to be more receptive to Christianity, but 837 00:47:58,600 --> 00:48:01,240 to potentially problematic versions of Christianity. 838 00:48:01,440 --> 00:48:04,160 And we have the opportunity to refute that and bring people 839 00:48:04,160 --> 00:48:06,920 into a solid faith. Yeah. 840 00:48:06,920 --> 00:48:10,120 And I think it'll be really interesting to see how these 841 00:48:10,120 --> 00:48:13,440 kind of cultural influences all shake themselves out over a 842 00:48:13,440 --> 00:48:16,240 certain period of time. Because I've seen a number of 843 00:48:16,240 --> 00:48:19,280 people kind of promoting A narrative or pointing to certain 844 00:48:19,280 --> 00:48:22,000 statistics. Let's say that younger people 845 00:48:22,000 --> 00:48:25,360 are becoming more and more interested in more traditional 846 00:48:25,360 --> 00:48:28,600 forms and expressions of of Christianity, more interested in 847 00:48:28,600 --> 00:48:31,480 the liturgy. So if the Kirk effect is kind of 848 00:48:31,560 --> 00:48:35,720 counteracting that, I'm just curious as to how everything 849 00:48:35,720 --> 00:48:38,720 will end up shaking out, how these different trends will 850 00:48:38,760 --> 00:48:42,600 combine in the long run. That's a good question because 851 00:48:42,600 --> 00:48:46,640 prior to Kirk's assassination, I remember, and maybe it was just 852 00:48:46,640 --> 00:48:51,000 my feet, but when I was on XI, was seeing a lot of people going 853 00:48:51,000 --> 00:48:56,160 into Roman Catholicism, Anglicanism, confessional 854 00:48:56,160 --> 00:48:58,800 Lutheranism, the Orthodox Church. 855 00:48:58,800 --> 00:49:01,640 And you have these people moving away from American 856 00:49:01,680 --> 00:49:06,400 evangelicalism, which on the one hand, I'm glad they see where 857 00:49:06,400 --> 00:49:09,040 evangelicalism goes. On the other hand, I do worry 858 00:49:09,040 --> 00:49:12,440 about those especially going into Roman Catholicism and the 859 00:49:12,440 --> 00:49:16,680 Orthodox Church because those confessions at the very least 860 00:49:17,040 --> 00:49:20,160 muddy the gospel up with their doctrines. 861 00:49:20,560 --> 00:49:23,360 And as far as the Anglican Church goes, it was once 862 00:49:23,360 --> 00:49:25,480 referred to as theology by zip code. 863 00:49:25,960 --> 00:49:27,840 So you don't know necessarily what you're getting with each 864 00:49:28,120 --> 00:49:30,960 Anglican church you go to. Now, I've talked to Anglicans 865 00:49:30,960 --> 00:49:34,320 who almost sound Lutheran in their theology, and it's very 866 00:49:34,320 --> 00:49:36,920 enjoyable talking to them. But I've also met other 867 00:49:36,920 --> 00:49:40,520 Anglicans who are very, very modernist in their theology. 868 00:49:40,920 --> 00:49:45,320 But I have seen people going to more traditional and liturgical 869 00:49:45,360 --> 00:49:49,600 confessions, and it says something about they're seeing 870 00:49:49,600 --> 00:49:54,280 that evangelicalism, the modern evangelicalism is, is has lost 871 00:49:54,280 --> 00:49:56,680 something that these like traditions have. 872 00:49:57,760 --> 00:50:02,040 I do envy cradle Lutherans because they have a very rich 873 00:50:02,040 --> 00:50:05,720 heritage and a rich doctrinal foundation that I, as an 874 00:50:05,720 --> 00:50:08,760 evangelical, did not have. And that that's an absolutely 875 00:50:08,760 --> 00:50:12,320 wonderful thing to have and never to take for granted. 876 00:50:12,680 --> 00:50:16,440 But yeah, I hope that this will give us opportunity to bring 877 00:50:16,440 --> 00:50:20,040 more people into Lutheranism. Yeah. 878 00:50:20,040 --> 00:50:23,240 So in talking about the Kirk effect, we've seen some positive 879 00:50:23,240 --> 00:50:26,800 things where there seems to be some more openness to and, and 880 00:50:26,800 --> 00:50:30,120 receptiveness to Christianity, but, but also some other things 881 00:50:30,120 --> 00:50:33,400 that that we need to be perhaps more critical of with how that's 882 00:50:33,400 --> 00:50:36,880 packaged or even sometimes being more precise with, with the 883 00:50:36,880 --> 00:50:40,440 exact doctrine and, and message that that is being conveyed. 884 00:50:42,440 --> 00:50:45,400 So we, we want to talk now, especially to people who, who 885 00:50:45,400 --> 00:50:48,800 are maybe coming into this podcast from outside of our 886 00:50:48,800 --> 00:50:53,200 Lutheran circles, who come in having been affected deeply and 887 00:50:53,200 --> 00:50:56,160 emotionally by all of these recent events by, by the 888 00:50:56,160 --> 00:50:59,040 assassination of Charlie Kirk, perhaps even had a, a strong 889 00:50:59,040 --> 00:51:02,440 emotional connection or reaction to the memorial service itself. 890 00:51:02,960 --> 00:51:05,680 We certainly don't want to downplay any of those emotions, 891 00:51:05,680 --> 00:51:08,760 but but we want to speak to them and we speak, we want to speak 892 00:51:08,760 --> 00:51:12,360 to you with the comfort that that only the cross can give, 893 00:51:12,760 --> 00:51:13,960 right? That the comfort and the 894 00:51:13,960 --> 00:51:17,320 solution to to problems and woes and grief and death. 895 00:51:17,320 --> 00:51:20,400 It isn't found in politics. It's not going to be found in in 896 00:51:20,400 --> 00:51:23,560 Western civilization, but it's found in the cross of Christ 897 00:51:24,000 --> 00:51:26,920 because there we see the ultimate transformation of 898 00:51:26,920 --> 00:51:30,200 suffering and martyrdom. We see it brought into new life 899 00:51:30,200 --> 00:51:33,440 with the resurrection. We see Christ triumph over death 900 00:51:33,440 --> 00:51:36,840 and we see the forgiveness of sins that we receive and the 901 00:51:36,840 --> 00:51:41,040 solution and the cure and the healing for all of the woes and 902 00:51:41,040 --> 00:51:43,760 on all of the terrible things that that we have to experience. 903 00:51:44,240 --> 00:51:48,280 So I'd invite you to come to one of our churches, join a good 904 00:51:48,280 --> 00:51:51,680 Lutheran Church to to hear that gospel, to hear that comfort, to 905 00:51:51,680 --> 00:51:54,600 hear something that that won't change from week to week, but 906 00:51:54,600 --> 00:51:57,960 where you can go week in, week out and be nourished and be fed 907 00:51:57,960 --> 00:52:02,280 by that same comfort, that same solution that we have in Christ. 908 00:52:03,600 --> 00:52:07,240 So thank you for joining us as we navigated this minefield of 909 00:52:07,240 --> 00:52:10,600 current events and politics. I hope we didn't step on any 910 00:52:10,600 --> 00:52:14,200 minds or upset anyone too much. But again, just wanting to be 911 00:52:14,200 --> 00:52:17,600 critical of things that are going on while also being open 912 00:52:17,600 --> 00:52:22,920 and engaging and leading towards a contact for the gospel of 913 00:52:23,280 --> 00:52:25,520 putting people in contact with Jesus. 914 00:52:26,120 --> 00:52:29,160 Thank you for joining us for this episode of With Reverence 915 00:52:29,160 --> 00:52:32,800 in Awe, the podcast of the Johannes Bugenhagen Liturgical 916 00:52:32,800 --> 00:52:34,480 Institute. If you would like to learn more 917 00:52:34,480 --> 00:52:38,040 about our organization, please visit our website at Bugenhagen 918 00:52:38,040 --> 00:52:40,840 dot Institute. My name is Caleb Struts. 919 00:52:40,840 --> 00:52:43,200 It's been a great pleasure talking with you and we'll see 920 00:52:43,200 --> 00:52:43,760 you next time.