1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:03,120 If a white supremacist called up Arsenal and said I'm very upset 2 00:00:03,120 --> 00:00:05,960 that your kit man has posted in support of Black Lives Matter, 3 00:00:06,200 --> 00:00:09,320 how would Arsenal respond? Arsenal had a thing act with 4 00:00:09,320 --> 00:00:14,440 class and I thought speaking out against genocide or the killing 5 00:00:14,440 --> 00:00:20,680 of any people murder was right. 344 Palestinian footballers were 6 00:00:20,680 --> 00:00:23,880 killed deliberately by Israel because Israel does not want 7 00:00:24,120 --> 00:00:27,640 Palestinians to be football. It's genocidal, it's racial 8 00:00:27,640 --> 00:00:31,240 segregation, it's colonialism. This is a this is a state that's 9 00:00:31,240 --> 00:00:34,400 governed by fascists who tell us that they are fascists. 10 00:00:34,480 --> 00:00:37,440 We have to go on the offensive and argue that Zionist beliefs 11 00:00:37,880 --> 00:00:40,000 are not worthy of respect in a democratic society. 12 00:00:40,000 --> 00:00:42,120 Yeah, it did hurt. I was signed off with anxiety 13 00:00:42,120 --> 00:00:44,640 and depression. Austin's action is like 14 00:00:46,880 --> 00:00:50,440 condoning what I've done and saying, oh, hang on, they're 15 00:00:50,440 --> 00:00:53,000 confirming he's a racist, which I'm clearly not. 16 00:00:53,000 --> 00:00:54,360 It's an. Honour to represent you, Mark. 17 00:00:54,520 --> 00:00:56,600 Thank you you. Did the right thing. 18 00:00:57,000 --> 00:00:59,240 A lot of people were too afraid to speak up, but you weren't. 19 00:00:59,320 --> 00:01:01,760 And you've you've acted with real integrity. 20 00:01:01,760 --> 00:01:05,319 And I'm confident that that his case for me was success in one 21 00:01:05,319 --> 00:01:09,520 form or another. Welcome back to Palestine Deep 22 00:01:09,520 --> 00:01:11,720 Dive. And I'd Mubarak to all those who 23 00:01:11,720 --> 00:01:14,160 celebrate. Now, whether you watch football 24 00:01:14,160 --> 00:01:19,000 or not, you will still know by now that after 22 years since 25 00:01:19,000 --> 00:01:23,280 their last Premier League, when Arsenal finally have their hands 26 00:01:23,280 --> 00:01:27,400 on the trophy once again. Last week, half of north London 27 00:01:27,400 --> 00:01:30,920 almost stopped functioning. Roads blocked, people hanging 28 00:01:30,920 --> 00:01:33,280 out of car windows, flares everywhere. 29 00:01:33,960 --> 00:01:36,880 Football really doesn't matter to people. 30 00:01:36,960 --> 00:01:41,240 It's identity, community, family, politics all rubbed into 31 00:01:41,240 --> 00:01:44,000 one. But behind the celebrations and 32 00:01:44,000 --> 00:01:47,920 the billion pound spectacle, there are also questions about 33 00:01:47,920 --> 00:01:51,440 censorship, sports washing and the politics shaping 34 00:01:51,440 --> 00:01:55,400 international football today. So to discuss all that we've 35 00:01:55,400 --> 00:01:59,000 invited into the studio Mark Bonnick, a former Arsenal kit 36 00:01:59,000 --> 00:02:02,520 manager who worked at the club for two decades before he was 37 00:02:02,520 --> 00:02:07,440 suspended and dismissed in 2024 over social media posts on Gaza 38 00:02:07,440 --> 00:02:10,400 and Israel. Mark is now suing Arsenal for 39 00:02:10,479 --> 00:02:14,680 unfair dismissal based on his philosophical anti Zionist 40 00:02:14,680 --> 00:02:17,640 belief. Also joining us in the studio is 41 00:02:17,640 --> 00:02:21,000 his lawyer Frank McGuinness, A barrister at Garden Court 42 00:02:21,000 --> 00:02:24,400 Chambers instructed by the European Legal Support Centre. 43 00:02:24,960 --> 00:02:28,400 You will often find a Frank walking on cases that involve 44 00:02:28,400 --> 00:02:32,000 Palestine asylum seekers and people fired for a pro Palestine 45 00:02:32,000 --> 00:02:35,440 speeches. Frank and Mark, thank you very 46 00:02:35,440 --> 00:02:36,800 much for joining us. Thank you. 47 00:02:37,160 --> 00:02:39,600 It's really a pleasure. I know we met before. 48 00:02:40,520 --> 00:02:43,320 We haven't met before, Frank, but I'm I'm really happy to be 49 00:02:43,320 --> 00:02:47,000 joined with you. Allow me to ask you first, Mark. 50 00:02:47,360 --> 00:02:52,680 I know that it must be a hell of a week. 51 00:02:53,080 --> 00:02:53,840 Last week. Brilliant. 52 00:02:54,040 --> 00:02:57,520 It's been a brilliant because I, I want to ask you, how do you 53 00:02:57,600 --> 00:03:00,680 personally feel after everything that happened to you personally 54 00:03:00,680 --> 00:03:04,240 and, and Arsenal? It's football. 55 00:03:05,000 --> 00:03:07,560 It's the team that's won my team. 56 00:03:08,040 --> 00:03:13,440 This has nothing to do with my political views or or that it's 57 00:03:13,440 --> 00:03:15,200 about the team. So do you. 58 00:03:15,240 --> 00:03:17,440 Did you still celebrate? Oh, cool. 59 00:03:17,480 --> 00:03:20,480 Nice. Are you still a sell an arsenal? 60 00:03:20,480 --> 00:03:22,800 Arsenal, yeah. Oh, interesting. 61 00:03:23,040 --> 00:03:25,920 Can you tell us a little bit about, not a little bit, a lot 62 00:03:25,920 --> 00:03:27,680 about what really happened to you with Arsenal? 63 00:03:30,000 --> 00:03:34,880 I've been speaking out against what's going on in Israel for 64 00:03:34,960 --> 00:03:42,000 for probably from 2013 on my Twitter account where X never 65 00:03:42,000 --> 00:03:44,760 mentioned who I supported or who I worked for. 66 00:03:45,200 --> 00:03:48,120 Never come into it. The mistake I made if you like 67 00:03:48,440 --> 00:03:50,840 was it was public. I had nothing to hide. 68 00:03:51,080 --> 00:03:54,760 So I I tweet I'd have some interesting conversations with 69 00:03:54,760 --> 00:03:57,160 people often called anti-Semitic. 70 00:03:57,280 --> 00:04:00,560 So I'd ask where, never got a reply because I wasn't and 71 00:04:00,560 --> 00:04:05,120 that's been proven. And this particular time someone 72 00:04:05,120 --> 00:04:09,320 hiding behind a slogan decided to call me anti-Semitic and a 73 00:04:09,320 --> 00:04:13,080 neo Nazi but couldn't defend it. I asked him nothing. 74 00:04:13,520 --> 00:04:19,440 He's then gone into my accounts, found out who I worked for, told 75 00:04:19,440 --> 00:04:21,519 me what he was going to do. He was going to go to Arsenal, 76 00:04:21,519 --> 00:04:25,200 go to the police, go to the FA and get me sacked. 77 00:04:26,040 --> 00:04:29,560 And it was different from normal people abusing you. 78 00:04:29,920 --> 00:04:34,280 I knew something was wrong and it was this doxy, this all of a 79 00:04:34,280 --> 00:04:38,920 sudden people bullying and it was like, oh, I know something's 80 00:04:38,920 --> 00:04:41,640 wrong here. Answered a few more questions. 81 00:04:41,920 --> 00:04:44,120 One of the guys was trying to catch me out. 82 00:04:44,120 --> 00:04:45,440 He said, oh, it's all down of Jesus. 83 00:04:45,720 --> 00:04:48,600 No, I don't know that. I've asked the question about a 84 00:04:48,600 --> 00:04:50,800 false flag attack over this graffiti. 85 00:04:51,240 --> 00:04:55,800 So it was I could take sense. Come off and literally next I 86 00:04:55,800 --> 00:04:57,520 get a course and I've been suspended. 87 00:04:58,440 --> 00:05:02,000 Stuff had been in the paper over anti-Semitism and I'm sure the 88 00:05:02,000 --> 00:05:06,600 guy when he phoned me mentioned anti-Semitism and it's proven 89 00:05:06,600 --> 00:05:09,040 not anti-Semitic. There was none. 90 00:05:10,960 --> 00:05:15,920 Had a meeting gone into this fact finding meeting and one of 91 00:05:15,920 --> 00:05:21,800 the big points Arsenal made was about an FA media release and 92 00:05:22,400 --> 00:05:25,760 they asked me if I'd seen it. I said no not seen it. 93 00:05:25,760 --> 00:05:28,320 I said I was making my own opinions. 94 00:05:28,840 --> 00:05:32,320 I said but I've been told the FA and Kick It Out. 95 00:05:32,320 --> 00:05:35,440 I've looked at it and found no anti-Semitism. 96 00:05:36,240 --> 00:05:40,520 They they never mention the FA again in a sense after my beer 97 00:05:40,760 --> 00:05:42,920 mention them again to say did I see it. 98 00:05:42,920 --> 00:05:45,040 I said no all the FA deal with this. 99 00:05:45,400 --> 00:05:51,720 Never did they say to us they were legally obliged, obligated 100 00:05:51,920 --> 00:05:55,360 to speak to the FA. Completely lack of candle from 101 00:05:55,360 --> 00:05:57,000 Arsenal. Dishonest. 102 00:05:57,400 --> 00:06:07,360 So anyway I have my disciplinary on the 20th so I'd ask Arsenal 103 00:06:07,360 --> 00:06:11,160 before going to it. Has a decision been made or will 104 00:06:11,160 --> 00:06:15,000 it be made on the day? I'm told been made on the day. 105 00:06:15,360 --> 00:06:20,160 So I go in there expecting things to be made on the day. 106 00:06:20,760 --> 00:06:26,080 I quote an Arsenal statement about Moe and Ellie. 107 00:06:26,320 --> 00:06:31,880 You're allowed your own opinion. So we're told to leave the room 108 00:06:31,880 --> 00:06:36,240 for 2010 minutes. 20 minutes later we called back in. 109 00:06:36,400 --> 00:06:41,880 No decision. So OK, still none the wiser. 110 00:06:42,440 --> 00:06:46,000 I go out to the car park and on the cars we had security passes. 111 00:06:46,360 --> 00:06:50,840 The security guard really apologetic, he said, Mark, I'm 112 00:06:50,840 --> 00:06:52,120 sorry, I've got to take your pass off you. 113 00:06:52,520 --> 00:06:54,440 I don't think anything of that at a time. 114 00:06:55,080 --> 00:06:59,000 And and now that to me saying this decision was really made, 115 00:07:00,760 --> 00:07:02,560 you know, because otherwise if it wasn't. 116 00:07:03,160 --> 00:07:06,480 But you were not told. Yeah, I would not have had my 117 00:07:06,480 --> 00:07:11,520 pass taken off me. So 24th of December on a sofa, I 118 00:07:11,520 --> 00:07:14,520 get a call saying I've been sacked. 119 00:07:14,520 --> 00:07:18,560 Would I like to appeal? Of course, straight away on my 120 00:07:18,560 --> 00:07:21,000 work's computer saying yes, I want to appeal. 121 00:07:21,680 --> 00:07:26,880 So goes on. I get a text from someone I 122 00:07:26,880 --> 00:07:30,360 didn't know hard and asking about these gentlemen. 123 00:07:30,520 --> 00:07:37,040 What a wonderful lot ELSC, but I want to support them. 124 00:07:37,320 --> 00:07:39,360 So I'm thinking of doing the right thing. 125 00:07:40,080 --> 00:07:44,920 IPhone, Arsenal and basically told to go away, speak to 126 00:07:44,920 --> 00:07:48,080 Citizens Advice and I thought no, I'll speak to these people 127 00:07:48,080 --> 00:07:51,680 and they've been brilliant. Working for 20 years in Arsenal, 128 00:07:51,680 --> 00:07:55,840 did you ever expect that you will be sacked for speaking up 129 00:07:55,840 --> 00:08:00,200 with the Palestinian people? No, because if you like ask me 130 00:08:00,200 --> 00:08:04,760 how to think, act with class. And I thought speaking out 131 00:08:04,760 --> 00:08:09,840 against genocide or the killing of any people murder was right, 132 00:08:10,600 --> 00:08:12,480 So no. You haven't? 133 00:08:13,040 --> 00:08:15,840 OK, yeah. So have you had any support from 134 00:08:15,840 --> 00:08:20,360 within the club itself? I had a lot of support from 135 00:08:20,360 --> 00:08:24,360 within the club, but because of the fear, yeah, you know, the 136 00:08:24,360 --> 00:08:28,760 cancellation, that sort of culture, people don't want to 137 00:08:28,760 --> 00:08:30,720 speak out so. Quickly. 138 00:08:30,760 --> 00:08:32,000 So they had to do. It, yeah. 139 00:08:32,000 --> 00:08:36,440 And I believe early, early on in it, members of staff were told 140 00:08:36,440 --> 00:08:38,760 not to contact me, not to speak to me. 141 00:08:39,159 --> 00:08:42,440 Oh, so again, friends, people you work with. 142 00:08:42,919 --> 00:08:45,440 So a lot of people didn't speak to me. 143 00:08:47,640 --> 00:08:52,280 And I I just think the way Arsenal had dealt with it is 144 00:08:52,280 --> 00:08:53,480 shocking. OK. 145 00:08:53,680 --> 00:08:56,560 Do you think that they have set an example with that or they 146 00:08:56,600 --> 00:09:01,280 have also like both regulations to prevent Arsenal players from 147 00:09:01,520 --> 00:09:03,920 saying anything? No, I think it in Palestine. 148 00:09:04,240 --> 00:09:11,000 Done purely as example. Listen, you behave like this. 149 00:09:11,000 --> 00:09:13,280 You speak out against certain stuff. 150 00:09:13,560 --> 00:09:15,560 You're going to get cancelled. You're going to get stopped. 151 00:09:16,000 --> 00:09:18,440 And. Then you're eventually decided 152 00:09:18,440 --> 00:09:21,600 to take legal action and saw Arsenal for your dismissal. 153 00:09:21,600 --> 00:09:23,400 What do you think the outcome would be here? 154 00:09:23,960 --> 00:09:26,680 I think Mark's going to win. I don't think that Arsenal can 155 00:09:26,680 --> 00:09:30,640 defend what they've done. It's unfair dismissal in my 156 00:09:30,640 --> 00:09:33,440 opinion. And we have this very helpful 157 00:09:33,440 --> 00:09:36,840 case that David Miller brought against the University of 158 00:09:36,840 --> 00:09:39,640 Bristol. And the judgement in that case 159 00:09:39,640 --> 00:09:43,360 confirms that anti Zionist philosophical beliefs are are 160 00:09:43,360 --> 00:09:46,000 capable of protection under the Equality Act. 161 00:09:46,440 --> 00:09:49,720 And if you manifest anti Zionist beliefs, if you criticize the 162 00:09:49,720 --> 00:09:53,080 apartheid state of Israel, if you criticize its racist 163 00:09:53,080 --> 00:09:57,200 governing ideology, then you're engaging the Equality Act. 164 00:09:57,320 --> 00:10:01,040 And the response to your manifestations of your belief 165 00:10:01,040 --> 00:10:03,520 has to be proportionate. And it's obvious that's sacking 166 00:10:03,520 --> 00:10:06,120 someone because they criticized an apartheid state while it 167 00:10:06,120 --> 00:10:07,840 committed genocide. That's not proportionate. 168 00:10:08,280 --> 00:10:10,120 And I think that Arsenal probably know that. 169 00:10:10,120 --> 00:10:11,680 We'll see how they decide to play it. 170 00:10:12,160 --> 00:10:14,840 But in my opinion, as someone who represents people in Mark's 171 00:10:14,840 --> 00:10:18,840 situation regularly, I think that the Zionist position is 172 00:10:18,840 --> 00:10:20,800 sort of collapsing in court. I think it's increasingly 173 00:10:20,800 --> 00:10:23,520 impossible to defend. And we can see that across a 174 00:10:23,520 --> 00:10:26,920 variety of British judgements and jurisdictions. 175 00:10:27,200 --> 00:10:30,560 So I'm very confident that, I mean, certainly I should say 176 00:10:30,560 --> 00:10:31,960 it's an, it's an honest representative Mark. 177 00:10:32,120 --> 00:10:34,200 Thank you you. Did the right thing. 178 00:10:34,600 --> 00:10:36,840 A lot of people were too afraid to speak up, but you weren't. 179 00:10:36,880 --> 00:10:39,360 And you've you've acted with real integrity. 180 00:10:39,360 --> 00:10:42,920 And I'm confident that that his case for me was success in one 181 00:10:42,920 --> 00:10:44,560 form or another. Yeah. 182 00:10:45,040 --> 00:10:49,280 So, Mark, how did this like affect you personally and 183 00:10:49,400 --> 00:10:51,800 professionally? Maybe if it had. 184 00:10:52,880 --> 00:10:55,920 Yeah, it did hurt. I think the biggest part of it, 185 00:10:55,920 --> 00:10:58,800 obviously I've been up and down. I was signed off with anxiety 186 00:10:58,800 --> 00:11:01,880 and depression and I could have easily stayed on there and not 187 00:11:01,880 --> 00:11:06,080 work on standardly sick pay. But I have two children I want 188 00:11:06,080 --> 00:11:10,880 to set examples to. And I think one of the biggest 189 00:11:10,880 --> 00:11:17,280 thing is with Arsenal taking it, the action, I think people look 190 00:11:17,280 --> 00:11:22,280 at me as if maybe I'm a racist and it's Semitic and I never had 191 00:11:22,280 --> 00:11:25,200 that before. You know, people obviously 192 00:11:25,200 --> 00:11:27,760 calling your names and whatever just brushed off. 193 00:11:28,200 --> 00:11:34,240 Arsenal's action is like condoning what I've done and 194 00:11:34,240 --> 00:11:37,840 saying oh hang on, they're confirming he's a racist, which 195 00:11:37,840 --> 00:11:41,800 I'm clearly not and their actions are disgraceful. 196 00:11:42,400 --> 00:11:46,720 I would say just chiming in, I mean, the this astonishing 197 00:11:46,720 --> 00:11:49,760 revelation came out, Navarro media ran a story talking about 198 00:11:49,760 --> 00:11:53,080 the fact that the FA before you were sacked had confirmed that 199 00:11:53,080 --> 00:11:56,280 you hadn't breached their rules. And it's worth noting that 200 00:11:56,280 --> 00:11:59,560 Arsenal, in deciding to sack you, did not make the allegation 201 00:11:59,560 --> 00:12:01,000 that what you've done was anti-Semitic. 202 00:12:01,280 --> 00:12:04,200 So that's part of why I say your case is so strong. 203 00:12:04,200 --> 00:12:06,160 I just don't see how they can defend that position in court, 204 00:12:06,160 --> 00:12:07,480 right? It's going to come out before 205 00:12:07,480 --> 00:12:10,120 the judge. The judge is going to be looking 206 00:12:10,120 --> 00:12:12,320 at evidence that the FA said he's not reached our rules. 207 00:12:12,840 --> 00:12:14,320 Why would you sack someone in that situation? 208 00:12:14,320 --> 00:12:18,440 It's complete completely disproportionate overreaction to 209 00:12:18,480 --> 00:12:22,000 an unfortunately all too common Zionist smear tactic. 210 00:12:22,000 --> 00:12:23,440 Right? Pick on a target they think they 211 00:12:23,440 --> 00:12:27,640 can get away with bullying, Run awful stories through the 212 00:12:27,640 --> 00:12:30,080 national and international press trying to attack your 213 00:12:30,080 --> 00:12:32,320 reputation. Mark and Arsenal could have 214 00:12:32,320 --> 00:12:34,800 reacted with principle and with courage and they could have 215 00:12:34,800 --> 00:12:36,920 defended one of their own employees. 216 00:12:36,920 --> 00:12:39,120 Exactly. Within 20 years, yeah. 217 00:12:39,400 --> 00:12:43,000 But what what is the problem with Arsenal, with people who 218 00:12:43,000 --> 00:12:45,400 are anti Zionists? Why is Zionism so important to 219 00:12:45,400 --> 00:12:50,200 Arsenal and football clubs? Like it's, it's mind boggling 220 00:12:50,200 --> 00:12:52,640 for me. I mean, if that was if Zionism 221 00:12:52,640 --> 00:12:57,240 or if Israel, if we're talking about someone who's in the UK, 222 00:12:57,240 --> 00:12:59,520 if you're attacking people who are in the UK or ideology in the 223 00:12:59,520 --> 00:13:02,280 UK, maybe I would say, OK, maybe they're interested, but this is 224 00:13:02,280 --> 00:13:03,440 a foreign country, why do you care? 225 00:13:03,440 --> 00:13:06,800 I think it's a bit backwards. I think it's it's tricky, right? 226 00:13:07,080 --> 00:13:09,320 But why is Zionism still so protected? 227 00:13:09,360 --> 00:13:12,680 I think we should notice the extent to which Zionism is 228 00:13:12,680 --> 00:13:14,640 collapsing. Like 2 1/2 years of genocide has 229 00:13:14,680 --> 00:13:17,320 fundamentally broken and and sort of eviscerated its 230 00:13:17,320 --> 00:13:19,120 reputation. So it is changing. 231 00:13:19,560 --> 00:13:23,040 But I think the reason Zionism and Zionists forgiven so much 232 00:13:23,720 --> 00:13:27,040 protection for so long is related to a few things. 233 00:13:27,320 --> 00:13:29,200 One is that we're in Britain, right? 234 00:13:29,200 --> 00:13:32,320 And the British Empire is responsible more than any other 235 00:13:32,320 --> 00:13:35,440 country for the emergence of the apartheid state of Israel and 236 00:13:35,840 --> 00:13:39,160 the racist project of Zionism. So that's part of it, right? 237 00:13:39,160 --> 00:13:41,920 There's this kind of racist colonial common sense in Britain 238 00:13:42,360 --> 00:13:45,840 that that, you know, we're on the side of our little loyal 239 00:13:45,840 --> 00:13:49,000 Jewish Ulster, as Ronald Stores called him whenever he was the 240 00:13:49,000 --> 00:13:50,760 colonial governor of of Jerusalem. 241 00:13:50,760 --> 00:13:51,920 So that that's part of the picture. 242 00:13:52,200 --> 00:13:55,000 And then I think another part of the picture is that some 243 00:13:55,000 --> 00:13:59,080 Zionists have very consciously and very cynically wielded the 244 00:13:59,080 --> 00:14:01,240 language of anti-Semitism. So you have this bizarre 245 00:14:01,240 --> 00:14:04,880 situation that an ethno state that decides to to self 246 00:14:04,880 --> 00:14:09,160 racialize as Jewish then uses the allegation of anti-Semitism 247 00:14:09,160 --> 00:14:13,120 to protect itself. And we have a parable for that, 248 00:14:13,120 --> 00:14:14,360 right? It's called crying wolf, right? 249 00:14:14,360 --> 00:14:16,080 We have this parable of the boy who cried wolf. 250 00:14:16,560 --> 00:14:20,080 And that parable is supposed to teach little children, Hey, 251 00:14:20,080 --> 00:14:22,840 don't pretend that you're in danger when you're not. 252 00:14:23,280 --> 00:14:25,120 Because. Then you are actually in danger, 253 00:14:25,360 --> 00:14:28,360 no one will believe you. And we now have this staggering 254 00:14:28,360 --> 00:14:33,120 situation where the meaning of anti-Semitism has been totally 255 00:14:33,120 --> 00:14:36,280 and deliberately degraded by some of the most openly racist 256 00:14:36,280 --> 00:14:38,400 people in society. So we have the bizarre situation 257 00:14:38,680 --> 00:14:42,840 where card carrying fascists in an apartheid state that are 258 00:14:42,840 --> 00:14:47,080 committing A genocide get to accuse other people of racism. 259 00:14:47,080 --> 00:14:49,840 People like Mark get accused of racism for opposing that. 260 00:14:50,040 --> 00:14:51,760 It's it's complete backwards and stuff. 261 00:14:52,200 --> 00:14:53,520 And it's not. And it's not only Mark. 262 00:14:53,520 --> 00:14:57,920 I also know that you represented another client who was dismissed 263 00:14:57,920 --> 00:15:03,040 by the the coffee shops. So my question to you, well, he 264 00:15:03,040 --> 00:15:03,920 wasn't. Dismissed actually. 265 00:15:03,920 --> 00:15:05,200 So he. He wasn't dismissed. 266 00:15:05,200 --> 00:15:07,120 This is part of why I say their position is collapsing. 267 00:15:07,120 --> 00:15:08,960 What happened in that case is ongoing. 268 00:15:09,280 --> 00:15:11,960 And what happened in Aiden's case is that he was made to 269 00:15:11,960 --> 00:15:16,440 remove a Palestine badge. So we say, we say the, the, the 270 00:15:16,440 --> 00:15:19,800 mere fact of having his badge removed in that way in response 271 00:15:19,800 --> 00:15:22,840 to Zionist complaints is a reach of the Equality Act. 272 00:15:22,880 --> 00:15:25,600 It's a racist harassment and it's, it's not good enough. 273 00:15:25,600 --> 00:15:28,160 And so, you know, it's like I've said, 2 1/2 years of genocide. 274 00:15:28,160 --> 00:15:31,120 I think something has fundamentally broken and 275 00:15:31,240 --> 00:15:34,400 employers like Arsenal, like the coffee shop in Aiden's case, 276 00:15:34,680 --> 00:15:37,360 need to understand that if you engage in this kind of racism, 277 00:15:37,560 --> 00:15:39,840 because what was done to Mark was also racist, right? 278 00:15:39,840 --> 00:15:42,480 If you if you stop people from speaking out against racism, 279 00:15:42,600 --> 00:15:44,400 you're engaged in a kind of racism. 280 00:15:44,760 --> 00:15:48,680 I think that employers need to need to understand that the game 281 00:15:48,680 --> 00:15:51,960 has fundamentally changed. Tell us more about this 282 00:15:53,560 --> 00:15:59,040 employment protection in the UK. Can people can employers just 283 00:15:59,320 --> 00:16:03,360 sack their employees for expressing their political 284 00:16:03,360 --> 00:16:06,160 beliefs in the UKI? Mean the short answer is no. 285 00:16:06,160 --> 00:16:10,000 It's the law is always a bit complicated, but broadly no. 286 00:16:10,000 --> 00:16:12,360 People have protections. They have protections against 287 00:16:12,360 --> 00:16:16,480 being unfairly dismissed which accrue after two years service, 288 00:16:16,480 --> 00:16:17,920 right. So after two years service 289 00:16:18,160 --> 00:16:20,560 employees in in the so-called United Kingdom will have a right 290 00:16:20,560 --> 00:16:23,760 not to be unfairly dismissed. But the protections the Equality 291 00:16:23,760 --> 00:16:26,840 Act apply from day one. So I would encourage people to 292 00:16:26,840 --> 00:16:30,040 think about the way that trade unions and organizing gives them 293 00:16:30,040 --> 00:16:31,520 protection. I think that joining the trade 294 00:16:31,520 --> 00:16:34,600 union organizing with your fellow workers is a very good 295 00:16:34,600 --> 00:16:37,120 starting point for actually practically protecting yourself. 296 00:16:37,560 --> 00:16:40,680 And I think the British trade union movement needs to to do a 297 00:16:40,680 --> 00:16:43,320 lot more than it has done. But broadly speaking, anti 298 00:16:43,320 --> 00:16:46,520 Zionists are on home terrain when they engage in the trade 299 00:16:46,520 --> 00:16:47,960 union movement. Most trade unions in this 300 00:16:47,960 --> 00:16:50,600 country have some kind of pro Palestinian, anti Zionist 301 00:16:50,600 --> 00:16:53,320 position and those positions are getting better and more 302 00:16:53,320 --> 00:16:55,480 developed. So the first part of my answer 303 00:16:55,480 --> 00:16:58,360 would be getting involved with the trade union and then also 304 00:16:58,360 --> 00:17:00,320 getting involved with sympathetic anti Zionist 305 00:17:00,320 --> 00:17:02,800 organisations like the European Legal Support Center that's 306 00:17:02,800 --> 00:17:05,079 instructing me to assist Mark here. 307 00:17:05,760 --> 00:17:10,440 But then on the legal front, and sorry to, I don't want to 308 00:17:10,440 --> 00:17:13,800 overstate it, but my impression is that that Zionist positions 309 00:17:13,800 --> 00:17:16,280 are incapable of defence. And that's true not just on the 310 00:17:16,280 --> 00:17:18,800 ground in Palestine. We see the way that Israeli 311 00:17:18,800 --> 00:17:22,319 positions are just collapsing, but also in English courtrooms 312 00:17:22,599 --> 00:17:24,880 and stop me if I get into the weeds too much. 313 00:17:24,880 --> 00:17:27,440 But there's a few signs of this. I mentioned David Miller's case, 314 00:17:27,440 --> 00:17:29,480 right? That was that was more than two 315 00:17:29,480 --> 00:17:32,080 years ago we had that judgement. So it's now the position 316 00:17:32,280 --> 00:17:36,320 effectively that people who criticize the apartheid state of 317 00:17:36,320 --> 00:17:39,000 Israel on Twitter and social media, people who manifest their 318 00:17:39,000 --> 00:17:42,520 opposition to Zionism can defend themselves much more effectively 319 00:17:42,520 --> 00:17:44,560 than they could before that judgement, right. 320 00:17:45,120 --> 00:17:48,520 So that was two years ago. In my opinion, the terrain, the 321 00:17:48,560 --> 00:17:52,480 legal coalface has now switched. So what used to happen in these 322 00:17:52,480 --> 00:17:56,520 cases was that the, you know, the claimant, the person who's 323 00:17:56,520 --> 00:17:59,040 been dismissed would say, well, I manifested my anti Zionist 324 00:17:59,040 --> 00:18:01,120 beliefs. And the other side, the employer 325 00:18:01,120 --> 00:18:03,840 would say your anti Zionist beliefs are not worthy of 326 00:18:03,840 --> 00:18:05,480 respecting a democratic society. Right. 327 00:18:05,480 --> 00:18:07,440 That's the legal test. Are your beliefs worthy of 328 00:18:07,560 --> 00:18:10,640 respecting a democratic society? Are they incompatible with human 329 00:18:10,640 --> 00:18:12,400 dignity and are they incompatible with the rights of 330 00:18:12,400 --> 00:18:13,960 others? So people like David Miller had 331 00:18:13,960 --> 00:18:16,360 to defend himself and say my beliefs aren't anti-Semitic, 332 00:18:16,360 --> 00:18:19,320 they are worthy of respect. We won that battle two years ago 333 00:18:19,680 --> 00:18:21,600 and as someone who represents a lot of people in Mark's 334 00:18:21,600 --> 00:18:24,480 position, in my experience, employers are no longer even 335 00:18:24,480 --> 00:18:27,480 bothering to argue the Granger 5 argument. 336 00:18:27,480 --> 00:18:29,520 They're no longer saying anti Zionist beliefs aren't worth the 337 00:18:29,520 --> 00:18:31,240 respect because the position has collapsed. 338 00:18:31,720 --> 00:18:34,920 So in my opinion, the coal face now, and this is increasingly 339 00:18:34,920 --> 00:18:37,160 coming up and it's coming up in the case you mentioned, the 340 00:18:37,160 --> 00:18:40,040 coffee shop, we have to go on the offensive and argue that 341 00:18:40,120 --> 00:18:43,120 Zionist beliefs are not worthy of respect in a democratic 342 00:18:43,120 --> 00:18:45,440 society. They, they don't, they fall foul 343 00:18:45,440 --> 00:18:47,320 of Granger 5, to put it in legal terms. 344 00:18:47,680 --> 00:18:50,520 And in, in my experience, it's just increasingly easy to do 345 00:18:50,520 --> 00:18:53,360 that because all you do is you say, well, it's the ideology. 346 00:18:53,440 --> 00:18:56,440 It's Israel's official ideology. Israel's an apartheid state. 347 00:18:56,480 --> 00:19:02,200 And we know that from the ICJ. It's genocidal, it's racial 348 00:19:02,200 --> 00:19:05,600 segregation, it's colonialism. This is a, this is a, a state 349 00:19:05,600 --> 00:19:08,960 that's governed by fascists who tell us that they are fascists. 350 00:19:09,320 --> 00:19:11,240 And when you go into court, the judges just go. 351 00:19:11,240 --> 00:19:12,880 No one ever says that, but that's actually correct. 352 00:19:12,880 --> 00:19:16,280 But if we want to be fair, I think Zionism and or expressing 353 00:19:16,960 --> 00:19:19,720 umm support for Zionism should be illegal to be honest. 354 00:19:19,720 --> 00:19:23,040 Because what is Zionism? Zionism is when you it's an 355 00:19:23,040 --> 00:19:26,560 ideology that think it is better than everyone else, that they 356 00:19:26,560 --> 00:19:29,200 deserve more rights than the Palestinian people, that 357 00:19:29,200 --> 00:19:31,120 ethnically kills the Palestinians, kill the 358 00:19:31,160 --> 00:19:33,880 Palestinians, suicided the Palestinians for too long. 359 00:19:33,880 --> 00:19:38,480 So I don't know why is it legal even to so Barzionism. 360 00:19:38,480 --> 00:19:40,880 Well, this is my point. I think that So what you're 361 00:19:40,880 --> 00:19:43,480 saying, what Zionists will sometimes say is that just as 362 00:19:43,480 --> 00:19:45,160 anti Zionist philosophical beliefs should attract 363 00:19:45,160 --> 00:19:47,520 protection, they try to do this false equivalence and say so to 364 00:19:47,520 --> 00:19:49,000 Zionist police should attract protection. 365 00:19:49,280 --> 00:19:51,280 And one of the things that we increasingly do in these kinds 366 00:19:51,280 --> 00:19:54,600 of cases is to make an analogy with, you know, Black Lives 367 00:19:54,600 --> 00:19:56,200 Matter and white supremacy, right? 368 00:19:56,200 --> 00:19:58,720 And this is relevant to Arsenal because Arsenal has put out 369 00:19:58,720 --> 00:20:00,760 public statements supporting Black Lives Matter. 370 00:20:01,280 --> 00:20:03,520 Also supporting things like opposition to the Russian 371 00:20:03,520 --> 00:20:05,920 invasion of Ukraine, right? So in my opinion, it's very 372 00:20:05,920 --> 00:20:09,000 helpful to have this Black Lives Matter analogy and also to think 373 00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:11,440 about the analogy with South African apartheid, because what 374 00:20:11,440 --> 00:20:14,040 so often happens is in a case like yours, Mark, a lot of 375 00:20:14,040 --> 00:20:16,400 racist people complain, right? A lot of people who are, I'm a 376 00:20:16,400 --> 00:20:18,200 Zionist, I have these racist views. 377 00:20:18,200 --> 00:20:20,680 I think that there should be an apartheid state that dominates 378 00:20:20,680 --> 00:20:22,840 non Jewish Palestinians because they're the wrong race and 379 00:20:22,840 --> 00:20:25,800 they're a demographic threat. Like openly, grotesquely racist. 380 00:20:25,800 --> 00:20:26,720 People. Yeah, unfortunately. 381 00:20:26,720 --> 00:20:29,240 Complain to a club. What's the correct response to 382 00:20:29,240 --> 00:20:30,800 that? Well, let's make the analogy 383 00:20:30,800 --> 00:20:33,000 with white supremacy because Zionism is akin to white 384 00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:35,160 supremacy. If a white supremacist called up 385 00:20:35,160 --> 00:20:38,720 Arsenal and said, I'm very upset that your kit man has posted in 386 00:20:38,720 --> 00:20:41,280 support of Black Lives Matter, how would Arsenal respond? 387 00:20:41,360 --> 00:20:43,400 They would say I'm sorry, you're so racist. 388 00:20:43,400 --> 00:20:46,200 Yes, sort of. When, after, after him down that 389 00:20:46,200 --> 00:20:47,920 line. I wanted to ask a question 390 00:20:48,440 --> 00:20:52,000 about, you know, if someone else complained, would they have come 391 00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:53,320 after me? I was shut down. 392 00:20:53,680 --> 00:20:55,720 I said, oh, that's hypothetical because they didn't want to 393 00:20:55,720 --> 00:20:58,160 listen. So again, that sort of indicate 394 00:20:58,160 --> 00:21:00,240 to me or a decision has been made. 395 00:21:00,600 --> 00:21:03,720 If you are enjoying this show, please don't forget to hit the 396 00:21:03,720 --> 00:21:05,680 like button and subscribe on YouTube. 397 00:21:06,120 --> 00:21:09,280 And if you want to support our work, we warmly welcome you to 398 00:21:09,280 --> 00:21:12,320 become a paid subscriber. Your support helps us build 399 00:21:12,320 --> 00:21:16,040 independent Palestinian LED media in a world which never 400 00:21:16,040 --> 00:21:18,560 needed it more. Find the link in the description 401 00:21:18,560 --> 00:21:21,360 below. So talking about the European 402 00:21:21,360 --> 00:21:25,120 Legal Support Centre, last week the European Legal Support 403 00:21:25,120 --> 00:21:28,240 Centre and the Public Interest Law Centre submitted a formal 404 00:21:28,240 --> 00:21:32,360 complaint to We can see it here on the on the screen formal 405 00:21:32,360 --> 00:21:37,000 complaint to the Bar Standards Board, the regulator of 406 00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:41,480 barristers in England and Wales accusing 3 senior barristers of 407 00:21:41,480 --> 00:21:45,040 using their legal status to intimidate Palestinian activists 408 00:21:45,040 --> 00:21:48,600 in their roles as patterns of UK lawyers to Israel. 409 00:21:48,880 --> 00:21:54,160 So it says the legal profession carries real authority, and that 410 00:21:54,160 --> 00:21:56,720 authority should never be used or appears to be used to 411 00:21:56,720 --> 00:22:01,760 intimidate people or organizations engaged in lawful 412 00:22:01,840 --> 00:22:05,600 campaigning and public debate. For small charities and 413 00:22:05,600 --> 00:22:08,520 grassroots campaign groups showing solidarity with 414 00:22:08,520 --> 00:22:12,680 Palestine, receiving legal correspondence that appears to 415 00:22:12,680 --> 00:22:16,320 carry the backing of some of the most senior figures at the bar 416 00:22:16,440 --> 00:22:20,200 can be deeply intimidating, particularly where they don't 417 00:22:20,200 --> 00:22:22,480 have access to legal advice of their own. 418 00:22:22,640 --> 00:22:25,200 So what do you think about this? What do you think about it and 419 00:22:25,200 --> 00:22:27,760 the understanding of what you've explained so far? 420 00:22:27,800 --> 00:22:31,720 For me, it's purely done to silence and cancel people. 421 00:22:32,120 --> 00:22:35,560 I think the real big thing for me, and I was real pleased for 422 00:22:35,560 --> 00:22:39,800 it, was the Rachel D Hunter case, and the judge did superbly 423 00:22:39,800 --> 00:22:43,800 there about the total lack of candle by the legal team that 424 00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:45,960 was trying to get to Reginald D Hunter. 425 00:22:46,480 --> 00:22:50,040 Yeah, I think it's very hopeful. I think this, I know the people 426 00:22:50,040 --> 00:22:53,440 who are behind these complaints and I commend them for publicly 427 00:22:53,440 --> 00:22:57,240 criticizing UK Louis for Israel. I think it's a good start, but 428 00:22:57,240 --> 00:23:00,040 in my opinion, like the apartheid state of Israel, I 429 00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:02,160 don't think UK Lawyers for Israel should exist as an 430 00:23:02,160 --> 00:23:05,000 organization. I think it's openly racist. 431 00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:09,400 I think maybe before October 2023, these racist people could 432 00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:13,880 try to public present themselves as UK Lawyers for Israel. 433 00:23:14,200 --> 00:23:16,560 But at this point, you know, any of these patrons, these members 434 00:23:16,560 --> 00:23:19,320 of the House of Lords and these barristers and so on who are 435 00:23:19,320 --> 00:23:23,520 agreeing to be associated with a group called UK lawyers for an 436 00:23:23,520 --> 00:23:26,960 Apartheid state are choosing those people are choosing 437 00:23:26,960 --> 00:23:29,040 racism. And I think that this needs to 438 00:23:29,040 --> 00:23:32,120 be the start of a much broader coalition comprising trade 439 00:23:32,120 --> 00:23:34,800 unions, anti Zionist groups, lawyers. 440 00:23:35,160 --> 00:23:38,880 In my opinion, it's long past due that we get a coalition of, 441 00:23:39,040 --> 00:23:42,040 of, of people who call for the organization to be rendered 442 00:23:42,040 --> 00:23:44,520 ineffective. They're they're, they're racist, 443 00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:47,040 they're vexatious and they exist to intimidate people. 444 00:23:47,040 --> 00:23:48,600 So that's that's the first thing to say. 445 00:23:48,600 --> 00:23:51,080 And then I agree with you, Mark. I think the original D Hunter 446 00:23:51,760 --> 00:23:53,960 example is really helpful. And again, it's a sign of the 447 00:23:53,960 --> 00:23:55,840 extent to which Zionist positions are collapsing. 448 00:23:55,840 --> 00:23:58,520 That, of course, was campaigning against anti-Semitism. 449 00:23:59,080 --> 00:24:01,520 In my opinion, that organization is all but defunct. 450 00:24:01,520 --> 00:24:02,960 Now. I don't want to claim an easy 451 00:24:02,960 --> 00:24:05,960 victory, but the the judge snow District Judge snow just 452 00:24:05,960 --> 00:24:07,320 destroyed their reputation, right? 453 00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:10,160 So there's a there's a judgement now that they sort of have to 454 00:24:10,160 --> 00:24:11,640 wear as a sandwich board effectively. 455 00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:13,960 The judge said that anytime you try to do this again, anytime 456 00:24:13,960 --> 00:24:16,120 you try to bring a private prosecution, you have to bring 457 00:24:16,120 --> 00:24:18,040 this judgement to the attention of the judge system. 458 00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:20,600 They've basically been prevented from harassing people. 459 00:24:20,600 --> 00:24:23,400 So I think campaigning against anti-Semitism, their reputation 460 00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:25,440 lies in tatters. They're all but out of action. 461 00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:29,720 The next organization that we should, that we should try to 462 00:24:29,720 --> 00:24:31,520 put out of action is UK laws for Israel. 463 00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:35,040 And so I welcome, I welcome this latest development. 464 00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:37,280 The only other thing I would say, and again, it's further 465 00:24:37,280 --> 00:24:39,760 evidence of the extent to which Zionist positions are collapsing 466 00:24:40,120 --> 00:24:42,760 in English courtrooms. And I can cite so many cases, 467 00:24:42,760 --> 00:24:44,960 but a case that springs to mind specifically in the regulatory 468 00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:48,320 context is this case of Hussein and the SRA, right? 469 00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:50,440 So these people have been reported to Bar Standards Board 470 00:24:50,440 --> 00:24:52,320 because you understand me of these two flavours of lawyer in 471 00:24:52,320 --> 00:24:54,520 England, right? Barristers and solicitors, BSB 472 00:24:54,520 --> 00:24:57,600 regulates barristers, the SRA regulates solicitors. 473 00:24:57,920 --> 00:25:00,480 Hussein and SRA is the case against the SRA that went to the 474 00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:02,720 High Court. So it binds all of the lower 475 00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:05,640 regulatory tribunals. And what Mr. Justice Chamberlain 476 00:25:05,640 --> 00:25:09,080 said in that he he did real damage, in my opinion, to three 477 00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:13,040 of the most problematic IHRA examples of anti-Semitism, 478 00:25:13,040 --> 00:25:15,600 so-called anti-Semitism, right? And so he pointed out that 479 00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:17,640 you're allowed to call for Israel to be abolished, right? 480 00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:19,280 You're allowed to say, I think it should be a single state 481 00:25:19,280 --> 00:25:21,440 that's not called Israel. He said that's not ipso factor 482 00:25:21,440 --> 00:25:23,320 anti-Semitic. He said that you're allowed to 483 00:25:23,320 --> 00:25:24,680 suggest that Israel's a racist endeavour. 484 00:25:24,680 --> 00:25:26,600 You're allowed to look at the circumstances of Israel's 485 00:25:26,600 --> 00:25:28,120 creation and suggest in my opinion, this is racist 486 00:25:28,120 --> 00:25:30,360 endeavour. And perhaps astonishingly, he 487 00:25:30,360 --> 00:25:33,000 said, and I'm paraphrasing, but he basically said, look, if 488 00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:36,920 you're careful, comparisons between the Israeli government 489 00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:40,200 and Nazi Germany are sometimes made and they are not inherently 490 00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:42,600 anti-Semitic. So we all know like a massive 491 00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:46,280 central plank of Zionist campaigning was to say if you 492 00:25:46,280 --> 00:25:48,240 make any kind of comparison, if you point out that the 493 00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:51,320 concentration camp, if you point out that Israel's governed by 494 00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:53,240 fascists, then you're making a comparison to the Nazis. 495 00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:55,760 You're not allowed to do this. And Mr. Justice Chamberlain just 496 00:25:55,760 --> 00:25:58,480 eviscerated that in a binding High Court judgement that now 497 00:25:58,480 --> 00:26:01,400 binds regulators like the Bystanders Court, the Solicitors 498 00:26:01,400 --> 00:26:04,320 Regulation Authority. So again, it's hopeful that even 499 00:26:04,320 --> 00:26:05,840 English judges are having to say, well, do you know what? 500 00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:08,120 You are allowed to. You are allowed to make 501 00:26:08,120 --> 00:26:11,440 comparisons when when a a state is governed by fascists, it 502 00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:13,520 becomes reasonable to make comparisons with other fascists. 503 00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:17,360 Seems like legal fronts is among the very few fronts with Israel 504 00:26:17,360 --> 00:26:22,000 that's winning in a way. I think that Israel is in a 505 00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:24,440 crisis and it's to be hoped that it's in terms of ISIS, like, I 506 00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:26,000 mean, who can say? I can't predict the future, but 507 00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:28,320 it's to be hoped that the apartheid state of Israel will 508 00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:30,480 collapse and will be replaced with a a democracy called 509 00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:33,440 Palestine. Hopefully I also think with 510 00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:38,000 these regulatory boards, it, it was quite clear from, you know, 511 00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:41,920 like me that what they were doing was wrong. 512 00:26:42,320 --> 00:26:45,360 Surely someone from the board goes well, hang on, this isn't 513 00:26:45,360 --> 00:26:47,000 right. This isn't what they're supposed 514 00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:51,280 to be doing and they they make a stand for it rather than waiting 515 00:26:51,280 --> 00:26:54,600 for people to speak out. Regulate it yourself. 516 00:26:55,240 --> 00:26:57,640 Exactly. And this crackdown is not only 517 00:26:57,640 --> 00:27:01,520 on people like Mark, it's also on many other people in the UK 518 00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:04,960 and outside Francesca. But recently even Misan, the 519 00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:09,520 chair of the South Bank Centre, he was under a huge campaign, 520 00:27:09,520 --> 00:27:12,800 media campaign, they're trying to demonize him and, and, and, 521 00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:15,000 and take him out of his position. 522 00:27:15,320 --> 00:27:19,440 So my question to, to both of you actually, so this is Misan. 523 00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:24,080 But you know, that backfired actually because of record 524 00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:28,120 complaints filed over UK press smear of anti genocide artist 525 00:27:28,120 --> 00:27:31,320 Misan Harriman. What I like about this is that 526 00:27:31,600 --> 00:27:37,120 the the campaign against Nissan did not, uh, did not go 527 00:27:37,120 --> 00:27:39,920 unnoticed. And we found 80,000 people 528 00:27:40,360 --> 00:27:43,080 complained about that the campaign against them. 529 00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:46,200 So people are waking up, people are noticing what what is really 530 00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:49,240 happening. But my question to you is how 531 00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:53,920 this media campaign and how these crackdown campaigns are 532 00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:56,600 going to affect people on different sections. 533 00:27:56,600 --> 00:28:02,400 I mean in on art, on on football, on on people like you 534 00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:06,720 and international human rights lawyers. 535 00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:09,760 How will this affect our world? The crackdown campaign, on 536 00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:14,240 people who are pro Palestine and who speak for justice? 537 00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:21,520 I, I think what happens is if we don't speak out, boot gets 538 00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:27,440 harder, we stamped on more. So as pack guard Guardiola said, 539 00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:32,000 once the little bird drops just the water on the fire, it 540 00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:33,480 cascades. And that's what's going to 541 00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:37,080 happen. And hopefully is that if people 542 00:28:37,120 --> 00:28:41,280 if people are silent, it carries on, you know, and so often we 543 00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:44,720 hear about people being silent over what happened in World War 544 00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:47,360 2. Now those same people that moan 545 00:28:47,360 --> 00:28:50,880 about silence want silence. So what? 546 00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:53,720 What do you really think? Exactly. 547 00:28:53,800 --> 00:28:55,680 I think a couple of things, I mean on the Nissan Harriman 548 00:28:55,680 --> 00:28:59,280 stuff, I think that this is another example of some of the 549 00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:02,560 most racist people in British society masquerading as anti 550 00:29:02,560 --> 00:29:04,000 racist. And it's madding. 551 00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:05,720 And I think most of them know what they're doing. 552 00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:07,760 And I think it's a common far right technique. 553 00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:13,400 You, you think about how the, the Nazi party, famously we now 554 00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:17,280 know, chose red as their colour to Madden the left, right. 555 00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:18,600 They knew that red was the colour of the left. 556 00:29:18,600 --> 00:29:20,640 So they're like, oh, and they call themselves the National 557 00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:22,880 Socialist. So they were trying to bend 558 00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:24,960 reality. Obviously they were a far right 559 00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:28,000 anti communist organization, but they tried to appropriate the 560 00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:31,000 language of the left to drive the left mad right. 561 00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:34,920 And this is well documented. That's what that was part of 562 00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:38,200 their tactics and I think contemporary far right politics 563 00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:41,560 consists in trying to drive they did it to Jeremy Corbyn right 564 00:29:41,800 --> 00:29:45,080 turn turn your enemies biggest strength into their weakness. 565 00:29:45,080 --> 00:29:47,120 So Jeremy Corbyn was a principal anti racist who had spent 566 00:29:47,120 --> 00:29:49,600 decades in parliament being on the right side of every single 567 00:29:49,840 --> 00:29:51,840 foreign policy and anti racism issue. 568 00:29:52,160 --> 00:29:54,920 And so they tried to monster him and say what you have now is 569 00:29:54,920 --> 00:29:58,640 this absurd situation where the Tory party can run an election 570 00:29:58,640 --> 00:30:01,720 campaign with open racism against gypsy Roman traveller 571 00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:05,120 communities while claiming we're the real anti racist because we 572 00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:07,280 care about anti-Semitism. So you have this completely 573 00:30:07,280 --> 00:30:10,560 degraded backwards. Black is white public discourse 574 00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:14,320 where the most openly racist people who are openly Zionist, 575 00:30:14,320 --> 00:30:16,760 they identify with the colonial project that's governed by 576 00:30:16,760 --> 00:30:19,680 fascists that govern an apartheid regime that are 577 00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:22,120 committing genocide, which is, I mean, genocide is basically the 578 00:30:22,120 --> 00:30:23,440 most racist thing imaginable, right? 579 00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:25,520 The mass murder of people because they're deemed to be the 580 00:30:25,520 --> 00:30:27,240 wrong race. But those people, those 581 00:30:27,240 --> 00:30:29,920 Zionists, they're the real anti racist actually, right? 582 00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:32,400 And it's, it is madding, but I think that's part of their 583 00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:35,080 powers that they don't have to be consistent in a way that we 584 00:30:35,080 --> 00:30:38,040 do because we are actually committed to opposing racism 585 00:30:38,360 --> 00:30:40,960 where our political opponents are committed to wielding racism 586 00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:44,880 to sort of attack and divide the working class and to attack and 587 00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:47,400 divide Palestinians right to fragment and destroy the 588 00:30:47,400 --> 00:30:50,120 Palestinian nation. So I don't have an easy answer 589 00:30:50,120 --> 00:30:51,200 about what's to be done about that. 590 00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:54,440 But even just being clear sighted that the far right are 591 00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:55,880 not serious about fighting racism. 592 00:30:56,120 --> 00:30:59,280 They're crying wolf and they're using a degraded definition of 593 00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:03,280 anti-Semitism to justify their open racism against migrants, 594 00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:06,240 against Muslims, against black people like me, son Harriman. 595 00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:08,400 What's to be done with such people? 596 00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:10,400 I guess we just have to confront them the same way we always 597 00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:12,680 confront the far right, which is unflinchingly. 598 00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:16,440 We need to get organised and and to see them for what they are, 599 00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:18,760 which is dishonest charlatans. Yeah. 600 00:31:18,840 --> 00:31:21,840 So back to our. I was just going to say I think 601 00:31:21,840 --> 00:31:26,000 it's a complete strategy, divide and conquer, you know all. 602 00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:28,200 Let's make about saying it's not like the religion. 603 00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:31,960 I think they use the religion, the Judaism, Islam. 604 00:31:32,040 --> 00:31:34,360 It's nothing about that. It's about land and control. 605 00:31:34,480 --> 00:31:37,040 Exactly. It's a political and colonialism 606 00:31:37,040 --> 00:31:38,720 problem. It's nothing about religion. 607 00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:43,440 So back to Arsenal. So Arsenal had the the shirty 608 00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:48,120 sleeve sponsorship before with visit Rwanda and Rwanda is a 609 00:31:48,120 --> 00:31:51,920 brutal western funded and backed the dictatorship. 610 00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:55,520 And now they have a new sponsorship by Israel founded 611 00:31:55,520 --> 00:31:59,400 company deal who is Israeli Co founder publicly backed the 612 00:31:59,400 --> 00:32:03,440 Israeli genocide of Razzle. So what do you make out of this 613 00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:06,880 like. You know, money before morals. 614 00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:11,040 You, you. It's all about cash, isn't it? 615 00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:17,480 It's perhaps with me because I'd spoken out against Zionist and 616 00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:23,600 all what had gone on. It was scared of them losing 617 00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:27,520 revenue. So I think they've looked at it 618 00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:29,320 and I don't know what they've been offered. 619 00:32:29,480 --> 00:32:31,360 They haven't gone well. Do you know what? 620 00:32:32,080 --> 00:32:35,800 What's going on is wrong. I don't think we should get in 621 00:32:35,800 --> 00:32:37,720 bed with these people. Exactly. 622 00:32:38,240 --> 00:32:42,320 I think that Arsenal is, I agree with you, money before morals. 623 00:32:42,320 --> 00:32:46,240 It's a business, it's a profit making business and that's a big 624 00:32:46,240 --> 00:32:47,720 part of how they make their decisions. 625 00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:51,920 As I understand it, there was pressure to drop the Rwanda 626 00:32:51,920 --> 00:32:55,400 sponsorship and that did result in it being dropped. 627 00:32:55,440 --> 00:32:59,080 It's now being replaced with something arguably worse or, you 628 00:32:59,080 --> 00:33:01,680 know, it's the same category, but but it is interesting to me 629 00:33:01,680 --> 00:33:03,200 that it was possible to organize against that. 630 00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:05,120 And so hopefully it should be possible to organize against 631 00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:08,560 this new sponsor if Arsenal fans get organized. 632 00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:11,920 But I think that a lot of work needs to be done in that regard. 633 00:33:11,920 --> 00:33:13,560 There have there have been attempts to organize Arsenal 634 00:33:13,560 --> 00:33:17,480 fans, but, you know, I would encourage any Gooners listening 635 00:33:17,480 --> 00:33:20,840 to this to get more involved in in campaigns within your club. 636 00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:22,680 It has to come from the supporters ultimately, right? 637 00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:24,760 And I think we have a big problem. 638 00:33:24,760 --> 00:33:28,680 I mean, the clubs aren't owned by their fans in most cases. 639 00:33:28,680 --> 00:33:33,280 There's a real lack of democracy and business seems to take 640 00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:35,200 precedence over what the fans actually want. 641 00:33:35,560 --> 00:33:38,480 I do think in the top flight, Celtic is a really interesting 642 00:33:38,480 --> 00:33:40,960 example of a club that's got very, very well organized. 643 00:33:40,960 --> 00:33:43,840 They have really close ties to Palestine. 644 00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:47,640 I'm not here to uncritically endorse Celtic, but you know, 645 00:33:47,640 --> 00:33:48,920 they have ties with either refugee camp. 646 00:33:48,920 --> 00:33:52,640 There's Legi centre in in Bethlehem that has really close 647 00:33:52,640 --> 00:33:56,320 ties to Celtic and you have the Green Brigade, which is this 648 00:33:56,320 --> 00:34:01,880 very powerful, militant, ultra left wing, anti Zionist force of 649 00:34:01,920 --> 00:34:05,600 Celtic, you know, home grown working class supporters. 650 00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:08,400 And the reason the Green Brigade is so powerful is because 651 00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:10,239 they're willing to go toe to toe with their own clubs. 652 00:34:10,239 --> 00:34:13,360 So when the club says you must not do this and when UEFA and so 653 00:34:13,360 --> 00:34:16,840 on tries to ban Celtic for flying Palestine flags, the 654 00:34:16,840 --> 00:34:18,520 Green Brigades just escalate, right. 655 00:34:18,520 --> 00:34:21,880 So it's a battle to organize your club and it's a bit like a 656 00:34:21,880 --> 00:34:24,639 a trade union struggle, right? It's like it's difficult and you 657 00:34:24,639 --> 00:34:27,520 have to you have a strategy, you have to get organised and you 658 00:34:27,520 --> 00:34:31,080 have to defy your club in order to turn it into the kind of club 659 00:34:31,080 --> 00:34:33,920 that you want it to be. And I think Arsenal fans are are 660 00:34:33,920 --> 00:34:35,920 starting to do that around Palestine and I encourage them 661 00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:38,760 to keep attempting to organise around these kinds of issues. 662 00:34:39,239 --> 00:34:42,360 Yeah, so we spoke about the sleeve, but also the shirt 663 00:34:42,360 --> 00:34:46,880 itself is made by Adidas and Adidas is a company that has 664 00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:50,480 previously bought Bella Hadid for her positions over Palestine 665 00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:54,840 and herself is Palestinian. So what do you like? 666 00:34:55,239 --> 00:34:57,320 What about Adidas? What's their position? 667 00:34:57,360 --> 00:35:01,280 Where are they still making the shirts for the club? 668 00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:09,560 Again, it's a sponsorship deal. Yeah, I I find it strange that 669 00:35:09,800 --> 00:35:14,640 sports manufacturers are worried about people speaking Murray 670 00:35:15,160 --> 00:35:17,040 about wrongs. Exactly. 671 00:35:18,560 --> 00:35:19,720 They were pressured though, weren't they? 672 00:35:19,720 --> 00:35:24,840 Because Adidas used to sponsor the Israeli football team, as if 673 00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:26,880 I'm not mistaken. And then back in 2018 or 674 00:35:26,880 --> 00:35:30,680 something, because of public pressure, they dropped Israel 675 00:35:30,720 --> 00:35:33,200 and then Puma took it over and then Puma dropped it. 676 00:35:33,560 --> 00:35:35,520 So it again. It does feel like there's an 677 00:35:35,520 --> 00:35:38,240 escalating boycott campaign against the Israeli football 678 00:35:38,240 --> 00:35:41,160 team, which obviously should be kicked out of FIFA. 679 00:35:41,480 --> 00:35:43,520 And I think Russia was kicked out after four days or 680 00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:45,240 something. Russia was kicked out like that. 681 00:35:45,240 --> 00:35:48,960 South Africa got kicked out for their part, Yeah. 682 00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:52,920 And for years we've had conversations about apartheid. 683 00:35:54,880 --> 00:35:57,160 UEFA and FIFA have done nothing about it. 684 00:35:57,160 --> 00:35:58,800 There's a. Big conversation happening in 685 00:35:58,800 --> 00:36:00,760 Ireland, right? There's the FAI, right, Football 686 00:36:00,760 --> 00:36:02,560 Association of Ireland, which has been much better on this. 687 00:36:02,560 --> 00:36:04,960 Well, I, I'm not here to again, I'm critically endorsing it. 688 00:36:04,960 --> 00:36:07,600 There's a battle going on in Ireland like anywhere over this 689 00:36:07,600 --> 00:36:09,600 stuff. But I think the common sense in 690 00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:11,960 Ireland is much more, oh, undoubtedly, much more 691 00:36:11,960 --> 00:36:16,440 undoubtedly. And so it's to be, does the 692 00:36:16,840 --> 00:36:19,760 cancel the game campaign, right. Ireland's supposed to be playing 693 00:36:20,120 --> 00:36:21,040 Israel. And so there's a growing 694 00:36:21,040 --> 00:36:22,920 campaign saying that that game needs to be boycotted. 695 00:36:23,120 --> 00:36:26,440 So it's to be hoped that we are witnessing a kind of like the 696 00:36:26,440 --> 00:36:29,360 position that South Africa was in in kind of the late 80s, 697 00:36:29,600 --> 00:36:31,920 early 90s, where it's like it's just becoming a complete 698 00:36:31,920 --> 00:36:33,760 international pariah. And it's to be hoped that 699 00:36:33,760 --> 00:36:36,720 football, I mean, football is an important site of struggle in 700 00:36:36,720 --> 00:36:39,800 all of that. And I think Adidas is kind of 701 00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:43,080 again, it's a profit making company, it will have attacked 702 00:36:43,080 --> 00:36:46,200 by the Hadid in the way that they did because of pressure. 703 00:36:46,200 --> 00:36:48,480 And it's for us to apply equal and opposite pressure to force 704 00:36:48,480 --> 00:36:52,560 them to to respond to the growing anti Zionist consensus. 705 00:36:53,240 --> 00:36:56,640 Can we take a look at this image of the kit? 706 00:36:57,360 --> 00:36:59,840 This is our our friend Matt Kennard. 707 00:37:00,400 --> 00:37:02,880 He says nice kit, unwearable though. 708 00:37:02,960 --> 00:37:07,840 Israeli founded company deal advertised on sleeve. 709 00:37:09,080 --> 00:37:12,520 Airline owned by one of the world's most brutal dictatorship 710 00:37:12,520 --> 00:37:16,360 advertised on the front. Then there is Adidas, no time 711 00:37:16,360 --> 00:37:19,760 sponsor of Israel, one time sponsor of Israel's Football 712 00:37:19,760 --> 00:37:23,200 Association, one big advert for genocide and apartheid. 713 00:37:23,720 --> 00:37:28,320 Disgusting. That is our friend Matt Kennett. 714 00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:32,720 But you know, now we're talking about sponsorship and how these 715 00:37:32,720 --> 00:37:37,160 sponsor sponsorship like may try to influence the club and all of 716 00:37:37,160 --> 00:37:38,840 it. But still the community's, the 717 00:37:38,840 --> 00:37:43,640 fan base of Arsenal is, is rooted in, in the community. 718 00:37:44,200 --> 00:37:49,800 And to be honest, Arsenal is the only a club I've ever been to. 719 00:37:49,800 --> 00:37:54,480 Like when I came to the UKI visited Arsenal twice and I 720 00:37:54,480 --> 00:37:57,360 watched two of their matches. Not that I care about football, 721 00:37:57,360 --> 00:37:59,920 I don't, but I care about people. 722 00:38:00,440 --> 00:38:04,160 And when I was there, I I really enjoyed my time, not because of 723 00:38:04,160 --> 00:38:05,280 watching. Football should. 724 00:38:05,400 --> 00:38:08,160 Be exactly because I've found people from all walks of life, 725 00:38:08,160 --> 00:38:10,680 people from different backgrounds there were 726 00:38:10,680 --> 00:38:13,560 celebrating and they were full of energy and they were happy 727 00:38:13,560 --> 00:38:16,440 people and it was happy for them and it was a very nice 728 00:38:16,440 --> 00:38:18,720 experience. My wife loved it really. 729 00:38:19,240 --> 00:38:23,120 But my my question to you now, the fans, the 10s of thousands 730 00:38:23,120 --> 00:38:28,000 of people who support and and love Arsenal, do they have any 731 00:38:28,000 --> 00:38:33,080 say in who funds the the club and Arsenal? 732 00:38:33,520 --> 00:38:39,360 I think those behind who fund Arsenal and Arsenal not a team 733 00:38:40,360 --> 00:38:42,480 don't really care about what the fans say. 734 00:38:44,240 --> 00:38:50,360 I think it might have been MO and Nanny got reported and I 735 00:38:50,360 --> 00:38:55,640 think it was from a coffee maker and there was discipline. 736 00:38:55,800 --> 00:38:57,880 Obviously we've used the most crap account. 737 00:38:58,200 --> 00:39:01,880 It'd be great to see Arsenal fans say, well we're boycotting 738 00:39:01,880 --> 00:39:07,960 a shirt because it basically has a murderous, genocidal company 739 00:39:07,960 --> 00:39:12,680 on the sleeve, so I'd like to see action taken over here. 740 00:39:13,640 --> 00:39:16,040 I also think, I don't know this is going to aggravate you, Mark, 741 00:39:16,040 --> 00:39:20,240 but I like I like I like going to non league football. 742 00:39:20,240 --> 00:39:23,440 There's Clapton CFC, right? That's amazing, right? 743 00:39:23,440 --> 00:39:28,280 100% fan owned club. I was, I regularly go to their 744 00:39:28,280 --> 00:39:30,560 events they've held like you go to their website, you see the 745 00:39:30,560 --> 00:39:33,920 number of solidarity things they've done long before the 746 00:39:33,920 --> 00:39:36,080 genocide even and certainly during the genocide, all these 747 00:39:37,240 --> 00:39:41,280 anti Zionist events and solidarity activity with 748 00:39:41,280 --> 00:39:43,480 Palestinians. And I saw when I was on the way 749 00:39:43,480 --> 00:39:46,480 here, I was Googling Clapton to see what they've been up to. 750 00:39:47,080 --> 00:39:48,880 You know, I've been to a bunch of their matches and stuff as 751 00:39:48,880 --> 00:39:52,000 Palestine flags everywhere. And apparently there was a game 752 00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:55,440 had to be called off because somebody tried to enforce the 753 00:39:55,640 --> 00:39:58,320 FIFA's ban on Palestine flags or something. 754 00:39:58,320 --> 00:40:00,600 And it was a bit like you and whose army kind of thing, right? 755 00:40:00,760 --> 00:40:04,480 So it's like, I do think. In the top flight of football, 756 00:40:04,480 --> 00:40:08,320 it's very money saturated and it's a business. 757 00:40:08,680 --> 00:40:10,840 And I think for a lot of these golf monarchies, it's also kind 758 00:40:10,840 --> 00:40:14,480 of like a status symbol, right? Yeah, Newcastle comes to mind, 759 00:40:14,480 --> 00:40:17,680 right. It's like like I think the very 760 00:40:17,680 --> 00:40:19,640 top clubs are profitable. A lot of clubs aren't that 761 00:40:19,640 --> 00:40:21,400 profitable. They probably don't break even. 762 00:40:21,680 --> 00:40:23,440 And so for a lot of these golf monarchies, it's kind of like a 763 00:40:23,440 --> 00:40:26,280 status symbol. But I do think at the the more 764 00:40:26,280 --> 00:40:31,080 kind of in the lower leagues, there are clubs that are 100% 765 00:40:31,080 --> 00:40:33,920 fan down and they're able to do really beautiful and amazing 766 00:40:33,920 --> 00:40:35,640 things because the fans have control. 767 00:40:35,760 --> 00:40:39,240 Yeah, but a lot of people would would argue that, OK, people go 768 00:40:39,360 --> 00:40:42,040 watch football, attend these matches because they want to 769 00:40:42,040 --> 00:40:43,880 have fun. They don't care about the 770 00:40:43,880 --> 00:40:47,280 sponsorship, they don't care about the politics around it, so 771 00:40:47,280 --> 00:40:51,000 why should they care? I think that's in some ways 772 00:40:51,040 --> 00:40:53,800 wrong because they've I got a lot of local football. 773 00:40:54,240 --> 00:40:58,520 They still care. Humans care about humans, you 774 00:40:58,520 --> 00:41:01,840 know, so they do care, each in a sense. 775 00:41:01,840 --> 00:41:06,320 When you go to the bigger games, you're paying money, so you want 776 00:41:06,320 --> 00:41:11,000 to see the product you've paid for, so a slightly less concern. 777 00:41:12,320 --> 00:41:14,920 Yeah, I think that, yeah, I agree with what you said about 778 00:41:14,920 --> 00:41:16,960 humans caring about humans. I think everyone does care. 779 00:41:16,960 --> 00:41:20,840 And I also think that there's there's this idea that you 780 00:41:20,840 --> 00:41:23,600 should be apolitical and there can be these apolitical spaces, 781 00:41:23,600 --> 00:41:25,720 but it doesn't make sense. Like, how can you have 782 00:41:25,720 --> 00:41:27,880 apolitical football? Oh, can we all just get along 783 00:41:27,880 --> 00:41:30,120 and play football? And in some sense, that is 784 00:41:30,120 --> 00:41:32,320 what's beautiful about sport. It is it does bring people from 785 00:41:32,320 --> 00:41:34,520 all over the world together and especially the sport of football 786 00:41:34,800 --> 00:41:36,480 because it's kind of the world's game, right? 787 00:41:36,520 --> 00:41:39,880 Like I remember watching the most recent World Cup final and 788 00:41:39,880 --> 00:41:41,560 it was like, I think it was the most watched in history. 789 00:41:41,560 --> 00:41:43,920 And it was problematic because it was in Qatar and all the rest 790 00:41:43,920 --> 00:41:46,960 of it. But like billions of people 791 00:41:46,960 --> 00:41:50,400 watching the finals, like, so it's this amazing universalist 792 00:41:50,400 --> 00:41:52,320 thing, right? Everyone sort of knows football. 793 00:41:52,320 --> 00:41:54,040 Everyone gets the rules. It's very intuitive. 794 00:41:54,400 --> 00:41:56,160 There's national teams, just local teams. 795 00:41:56,560 --> 00:41:59,600 So it is this beautiful thing, but it's also like anything, 796 00:41:59,600 --> 00:42:01,240 it's complicated and it is political. 797 00:42:01,440 --> 00:42:04,760 And to say, oh, let's just enjoy it in an apolitical way becomes 798 00:42:04,760 --> 00:42:08,120 absurd when the apartheid state of Israel has eviscerated 799 00:42:08,120 --> 00:42:10,640 Palestinians. Yeah, and benefited from the 800 00:42:11,520 --> 00:42:14,240 some of the benefits that come benefits that come from like the 801 00:42:14,240 --> 00:42:18,360 matches for instance, Adidas and like deal and all of that. 802 00:42:18,360 --> 00:42:21,640 They benefit actually from the the games and all of that. 803 00:42:21,640 --> 00:42:25,800 But for me, like the having fun thing, I remember in 2014, 804 00:42:25,800 --> 00:42:29,400 Israeli Christian in Gaza when I was there, like there was the 805 00:42:29,400 --> 00:42:32,440 World Cup at that time and people were watching it. 806 00:42:32,440 --> 00:42:35,640 So we knew that like young people are going to different 807 00:42:36,080 --> 00:42:38,840 cafes to watch it. And we felt like some people are 808 00:42:38,840 --> 00:42:41,720 having a little bit of fun with that very aggressive real 809 00:42:41,720 --> 00:42:44,120 aggression. And at that time, like it was 810 00:42:44,120 --> 00:42:48,360 like my my moment of many things has changed for me at that, at 811 00:42:48,360 --> 00:42:52,520 that moment when Israel have bombed a cafe, killing seven 812 00:42:52,520 --> 00:42:54,960 Palestinian youth watching the World Cup. 813 00:42:55,520 --> 00:43:00,360 And at that moment, I felt like if our people within an Israeli 814 00:43:00,360 --> 00:43:04,120 aggression are putting effort to share the joy with other people 815 00:43:04,120 --> 00:43:07,160 around the world. But the rest of the people and 816 00:43:07,160 --> 00:43:10,040 the clubs, the football, the players are not looking at them. 817 00:43:10,400 --> 00:43:14,600 So what's the point of football? If it's about fun, then it has 818 00:43:14,600 --> 00:43:17,000 to be for everyone. And after that I. 819 00:43:17,560 --> 00:43:20,360 But look how they reacted to Russia. 820 00:43:21,280 --> 00:43:26,440 Black lives matter anti racism but you are making statements 821 00:43:26,440 --> 00:43:32,800 about kicking out knife crime. So you you do speak out. 822 00:43:32,800 --> 00:43:36,280 Again, political issues, but some you don't. 823 00:43:36,920 --> 00:43:38,880 Well, this is my point about Black Lives Matter, right? 824 00:43:38,880 --> 00:43:40,320 Like, do Palestinian lives matter? 825 00:43:40,520 --> 00:43:44,120 So we're allowed and we should support the struggle against 826 00:43:44,120 --> 00:43:47,800 white supremacy and the Black Lives Matter movement, right? 827 00:43:47,800 --> 00:43:48,920 Of course we should support that. 828 00:43:49,080 --> 00:43:51,440 Why can't we support the movement for Palestinian lives, 829 00:43:51,440 --> 00:43:54,640 right? And the answer is because the 830 00:43:54,680 --> 00:43:57,520 most Western governments, most NATO governments support the 831 00:43:57,520 --> 00:43:58,920 apartheid state of Israel to the hilt. 832 00:43:59,200 --> 00:44:03,320 But their little loyal Jewish shelter is in crisis, right? 833 00:44:03,400 --> 00:44:07,080 And I just think football is is unanswerably political. 834 00:44:07,320 --> 00:44:10,600 You think about the role that sports boycotts played in 835 00:44:10,600 --> 00:44:12,400 bringing down South African apartheid. 836 00:44:12,400 --> 00:44:14,320 How do you actually bring down an apartheid regime? 837 00:44:14,320 --> 00:44:18,960 The international dimension, the diaspora and the pressure that 838 00:44:18,960 --> 00:44:22,560 can be brought to bear from outside of Palestine is an 839 00:44:22,560 --> 00:44:25,720 important part of the picture. Take the Irish example. 840 00:44:26,040 --> 00:44:29,560 If we organize well enough and we put enough pressure on the 841 00:44:29,560 --> 00:44:33,120 Irish team to boycott that game, that will be a serious blow. 842 00:44:33,280 --> 00:44:36,600 It's not going to single handedly defeat Zionism. 843 00:44:36,720 --> 00:44:38,240 Yeah, but it. Will be an important. 844 00:44:38,320 --> 00:44:41,440 So many efforts it's. Symbolic, it's important, it's 845 00:44:41,440 --> 00:44:44,400 damaging, it's damaging the fascist ideology of Zionism, 846 00:44:44,400 --> 00:44:47,520 it's damaging their reputation, it's increasing their isolation. 847 00:44:47,720 --> 00:44:51,400 So it's an it's unanswerably a site of struggle, but also just 848 00:44:51,400 --> 00:44:54,080 thinking about like, oh, it's a beautiful game and people should 849 00:44:54,080 --> 00:44:56,680 be allowed to resolve their national disagreements in the 850 00:44:56,680 --> 00:44:59,200 World Cup on the on the, on the football pitch, whatever. 851 00:44:59,360 --> 00:45:01,920 How are Palestinians supposed to compete in the World Cup 852 00:45:01,920 --> 00:45:04,880 whenever Israel has murdered hundreds of footballers, right? 853 00:45:04,880 --> 00:45:06,520 I was looking at statistics hundreds. 854 00:45:06,920 --> 00:45:09,120 And even before the genocide, they were infamous. 855 00:45:09,120 --> 00:45:12,920 It was it was like it was notorious that that Zionist 856 00:45:12,920 --> 00:45:15,920 soldiers would shoot the feet of known Palestinians, right end 857 00:45:15,920 --> 00:45:19,400 their careers, right. How can you allow such open 858 00:45:19,400 --> 00:45:23,920 fascism into into FIFA right? They should be banned right? 859 00:45:23,920 --> 00:45:26,960 Like but. Also, FIFA itself and new FIFA, 860 00:45:27,600 --> 00:45:30,400 we know that Israel is committing A genocide up to the 861 00:45:30,400 --> 00:45:33,880 ICJ, plausible genocide. The ICJ has also declared that 862 00:45:34,200 --> 00:45:36,760 Israeli occupation of Palestinian land is unlawful. 863 00:45:37,080 --> 00:45:40,440 And at the same time, FIFA is still like up to the new 864 00:45:40,440 --> 00:45:43,840 reports, FIFA is still supporting a legal Israeli 865 00:45:43,840 --> 00:45:46,040 settlement collapse. And they have increased in 866 00:45:46,040 --> 00:45:49,400 numbers, they have increased in status and in size. 867 00:45:49,560 --> 00:45:52,400 So why is that still happening? Is it? 868 00:45:52,440 --> 00:45:57,080 It is political. It's not unpolitical, political. 869 00:45:57,080 --> 00:45:58,200 But I. Think. 870 00:45:58,240 --> 00:46:03,480 What you also have to look at is he has to fill a game where Tel 871 00:46:03,480 --> 00:46:08,120 Aviv come over how that was portrayed, you know, oh, this is 872 00:46:08,120 --> 00:46:11,560 anti-Semitism. No, it's against racist football 873 00:46:11,600 --> 00:46:14,360 thugs. And I think the very next game 874 00:46:14,360 --> 00:46:19,480 they played in Israel, it got abandoned because of racism and 875 00:46:19,480 --> 00:46:22,800 violence. But they were the victims when 876 00:46:22,800 --> 00:46:25,000 they were told they couldn't play Villa. 877 00:46:25,600 --> 00:46:28,080 Yeah, classic example of this Zionist. 878 00:46:28,840 --> 00:46:31,240 Cry wolf. Yeah, and self victimizing 879 00:46:31,240 --> 00:46:32,880 right? Just like the worst cry bullies 880 00:46:32,880 --> 00:46:36,240 ever to have played the game of cry bullying or whatever. 881 00:46:36,520 --> 00:46:39,640 Just completely absurd the way again, reality gets bent 882 00:46:40,080 --> 00:46:43,160 backwards to try to accommodate, as you say, this racist thugs. 883 00:46:43,160 --> 00:46:45,680 I mean from where I was standing, I saw what happened in 884 00:46:45,920 --> 00:46:48,960 Amsterdam. A load of Zionists showed up, 885 00:46:48,960 --> 00:46:52,680 chanting death to Arabs, tearing down Palestine flags, attacking 886 00:46:52,680 --> 00:46:55,360 random people on site, and then they got hammered on the 887 00:46:55,360 --> 00:46:59,040 football pitch, which was obviously delicious, and then 888 00:46:59,040 --> 00:47:01,800 they got the thugs also like the good people of Amsterdam, sent 889 00:47:01,800 --> 00:47:03,880 them packing. And then suddenly you've got 890 00:47:04,600 --> 00:47:07,080 world leaders in Canada and stuff saying like, oh, no, the 891 00:47:07,080 --> 00:47:08,640 football folks are the victims, actually. 892 00:47:09,160 --> 00:47:11,280 And there was that, there was that iconic video. 893 00:47:11,600 --> 00:47:13,640 I say iconic. There was that infamous that 894 00:47:13,640 --> 00:47:18,360 that video that did the rounds, the viral video of a scene from 895 00:47:18,360 --> 00:47:20,880 that night in Amsterdam. And everyone was saying, oh, 896 00:47:20,880 --> 00:47:23,440 look at these poor people. It's a pogrom. 897 00:47:23,680 --> 00:47:27,760 And what the video showed was the Maccabee fans and, like, 898 00:47:27,760 --> 00:47:29,120 chasing down other people. Yeah. 899 00:47:29,360 --> 00:47:30,560 Exactly. Yeah, it was. 900 00:47:30,760 --> 00:47:32,720 You. Yeah, and actually and. 901 00:47:33,080 --> 00:47:36,760 And then and then the the police was Aben and Somerset, wasn't 902 00:47:36,760 --> 00:47:38,800 it, who were like speaking to the their colleagues in 903 00:47:38,800 --> 00:47:40,920 Amsterdam and they're saying like these guys are seriously 904 00:47:40,920 --> 00:47:43,880 racist. We have provision in in Britain 905 00:47:44,200 --> 00:47:48,280 to to ban fans from attending if there's serious concerns around 906 00:47:48,440 --> 00:47:50,920 violence and hooliganism. It happens as it has happened on 907 00:47:50,920 --> 00:47:52,160 countless occasions in this country. 908 00:47:52,360 --> 00:47:55,200 But because it's an Israeli team again, and I refer to what I 909 00:47:55,200 --> 00:47:57,160 said previously, right? Anything that you say that 910 00:47:57,160 --> 00:47:59,360 criticizes something to do with Israel, Oh, maybe it's 911 00:47:59,360 --> 00:48:00,640 anti-Semitism. It's like, no, they're just 912 00:48:00,640 --> 00:48:02,680 racist thugs. There's like Zionists, Many of 913 00:48:02,680 --> 00:48:05,440 them have served or previously served in the Zionist military. 914 00:48:05,440 --> 00:48:08,200 These people are deeply racist, anti Arab, fascist, 915 00:48:08,200 --> 00:48:10,200 sympathising. Even within the cesspit of 916 00:48:10,200 --> 00:48:13,600 Israeli football, they're regarded as as Zionist ultras. 917 00:48:14,160 --> 00:48:17,880 And so the the police made a decision to, as they often do, 918 00:48:18,240 --> 00:48:21,320 and suddenly it's Oh no, actually, oh, the football thugs 919 00:48:21,320 --> 00:48:22,760 are the real victims. Be serious. 920 00:48:22,760 --> 00:48:25,320 It's ridiculous. Oh God, on that point exactly, 921 00:48:25,320 --> 00:48:29,200 There's a video that sums up how the world deals with Israel and 922 00:48:29,200 --> 00:48:31,440 the world. It's for the former Israeli 923 00:48:31,440 --> 00:48:37,360 footballer Yael Berkovich, and he's talking about Not innocent 924 00:48:37,360 --> 00:48:40,920 in Gaza and Wipe the Arabs. Let's watch it together. 925 00:48:48,680 --> 00:48:57,320 Yeah. So how was this received in? 926 00:48:57,360 --> 00:49:01,920 That thing that goes back to Gary Lineker's comment about the 927 00:49:01,920 --> 00:49:06,440 language of 1930s Germany. But we're not allowed to say 928 00:49:06,440 --> 00:49:09,680 that there he is that that obviously racist. 929 00:49:09,960 --> 00:49:11,720 Exactly. He's fascist. 930 00:49:11,800 --> 00:49:14,880 Genocide the language, wipe out all Gaza it. 931 00:49:15,080 --> 00:49:18,360 Makes me think of the Israeli president, Isaac Kurtzog, 932 00:49:18,360 --> 00:49:20,960 because he he was quoted, right? His speech was directly quoted 933 00:49:20,960 --> 00:49:23,840 by the ICJ. Yeah, in January 2020. 4. 934 00:49:24,360 --> 00:49:25,800 And he said something very, very similar, right? 935 00:49:25,800 --> 00:49:29,000 There are no innocents in innocents in Gaza. 936 00:49:29,000 --> 00:49:31,320 They could have risen up and overthrown that Hebel regime. 937 00:49:31,600 --> 00:49:33,520 An entire nation is responsible, right? 938 00:49:33,520 --> 00:49:34,320 That's. What exactly? 939 00:49:34,800 --> 00:49:37,120 Not just Gaza, the entire Palestinian nation. 940 00:49:37,600 --> 00:49:38,480 Yeah. It's it's collectively 941 00:49:38,480 --> 00:49:39,680 responsible. There are no innocence. 942 00:49:39,680 --> 00:49:43,160 So this is, in my opinion, this is a fascist society in a death 943 00:49:43,200 --> 00:49:45,080 viral. Like I just I think that there's 944 00:49:45,080 --> 00:49:47,200 an interesting double movement that seems to happen with the 945 00:49:47,640 --> 00:49:50,800 demographics within the Jewish Israeli population, which is 946 00:49:50,800 --> 00:49:54,240 that anyone with any kind of even liberal and certainly left 947 00:49:54,240 --> 00:49:56,000 wing politics. And I've spoken because so many 948 00:49:56,000 --> 00:49:59,560 of my friends are like, they identify as X Israelis and I've 949 00:49:59,560 --> 00:50:01,920 met them in London or Berlin or wherever because they're like, I 950 00:50:01,920 --> 00:50:03,560 can't live in that society because it's fascist. 951 00:50:03,560 --> 00:50:06,720 They want to Co-op me into a fascist military that enacts 952 00:50:06,720 --> 00:50:08,440 constant colonial violence. I can't do it. 953 00:50:08,640 --> 00:50:10,840 So anyone with sensible politics is thinking, I think I'm going 954 00:50:10,840 --> 00:50:13,240 to leave this place. And many Jewish Israelis have 955 00:50:13,240 --> 00:50:15,000 second or third passports. So they're in a position to 956 00:50:15,000 --> 00:50:17,960 simply leave if they want to, in circumstances, of course, where 957 00:50:17,960 --> 00:50:19,440 many Palestinians have no passports. 958 00:50:19,440 --> 00:50:21,880 Exactly. And the, and the double movement 959 00:50:21,880 --> 00:50:24,800 is that all of because of Israel's Law of Return 1950, 960 00:50:24,800 --> 00:50:26,720 every Jew may return to Israel as an Ole. 961 00:50:27,080 --> 00:50:30,360 It's the most fanatical, psychotic, fascist minded who 962 00:50:30,360 --> 00:50:33,160 are now thinking, oh, I want to go to Palestine because of the 963 00:50:33,160 --> 00:50:34,880 violence. So you get this double movement 964 00:50:34,880 --> 00:50:37,280 where all of the right wing people are being attracted into 965 00:50:37,320 --> 00:50:38,840 it and all of the sensible people are leaving. 966 00:50:39,280 --> 00:50:42,480 And so I think for the longest time, the Zionist project tried 967 00:50:42,480 --> 00:50:45,680 to observe this delicate balance between a Jewish and democratic 968 00:50:45,680 --> 00:50:47,040 state, right? That was their big tagline. 969 00:50:47,240 --> 00:50:48,680 We're both Jewish and democratic. 970 00:50:48,680 --> 00:50:50,280 And if you think about it for a second, it's an obvious 971 00:50:50,280 --> 00:50:52,400 contradiction, right? It's like choose, choose one. 972 00:50:52,400 --> 00:50:54,520 You can't have both. They've made their choice in my 973 00:50:54,520 --> 00:50:55,920 opinion, Right. They're no longer pretending to 974 00:50:55,920 --> 00:50:57,400 be democratic. That's been the case since long 975 00:50:57,400 --> 00:51:00,240 before the genocide, right? 2018I. 976 00:51:00,800 --> 00:51:06,120 Don't think you can. Be a democracy if you put one 977 00:51:06,120 --> 00:51:08,600 group above all other other groups. 978 00:51:08,840 --> 00:51:11,760 The democracy for me is about equality. 979 00:51:12,040 --> 00:51:13,320 We're all the same. Absolutely. 980 00:51:13,320 --> 00:51:15,560 And I think you mentioned some international judgements about 981 00:51:15,560 --> 00:51:17,520 genocide and so on. I think the crucial judgement 982 00:51:17,520 --> 00:51:20,360 that not enough people have mentioned, but the sort of 983 00:51:20,520 --> 00:51:22,520 kryptonite when you go into an English court and just mention 984 00:51:22,520 --> 00:51:24,960 it. The advisory opinion from July 985 00:51:24,960 --> 00:51:29,280 2024 confirmed that Israel is in breach of Article 3 Convention 986 00:51:29,280 --> 00:51:31,480 on the Elation of Elimination of Racial Discrimination, which 987 00:51:31,480 --> 00:51:33,880 means that Israel is committing racial segregation and 988 00:51:33,880 --> 00:51:35,560 apartheid. That's a settled matter of 989 00:51:35,560 --> 00:51:37,320 international law. It's, it's over. 990 00:51:37,320 --> 00:51:38,440 I just don't see how you come back from that. 991 00:51:38,440 --> 00:51:40,720 It's an apartheid state. And don't take my word for it. 992 00:51:40,760 --> 00:51:43,920 The ICJ has confirmed it. So I just think their position 993 00:51:43,920 --> 00:51:47,840 is completely unraveling. A lot of these politicians, like 994 00:51:48,040 --> 00:51:50,120 like we said, these people, UK lawyers for Israel, members of 995 00:51:50,120 --> 00:51:54,280 the House of Lords, barristers, Keir Starmer, the United States, 996 00:51:54,280 --> 00:51:57,120 like it's all unravelling. But it's, you know, the night is 997 00:51:57,120 --> 00:51:59,200 darkest before the dawn. I know that's a cliche, but I 998 00:51:59,200 --> 00:52:01,920 really think this is the the death rattle of a failed 999 00:52:01,920 --> 00:52:04,160 experiment in in ethno nationalism. 1000 00:52:04,480 --> 00:52:08,080 And I think that football is an important site in the struggle 1001 00:52:08,560 --> 00:52:10,520 against that fascist failed project. 1002 00:52:12,480 --> 00:52:16,880 You ever signed? We said be together when you 1003 00:52:16,880 --> 00:52:20,920 divide on on whatever you want together. 1004 00:52:22,960 --> 00:52:25,960 Divide, if not together. You know, I'm, I'm still shocked 1005 00:52:25,960 --> 00:52:31,720 that FIFA still allows us to play because, you know, even 1006 00:52:31,720 --> 00:52:35,880 after the genocide, Israel killed 344 Palestinian 1007 00:52:35,880 --> 00:52:41,120 footballers. 344 Palestinian footballers were killed 1008 00:52:41,520 --> 00:52:43,840 deliberately by Israel because Israel does not want 1009 00:52:44,120 --> 00:52:46,840 Palestinians to play football. But moreover, they killed over 1010 00:52:46,840 --> 00:52:51,240 100 or 800 Palestinian athletes. And you're these athletes were 1011 00:52:51,240 --> 00:52:53,520 assassinated. They were not killed because 1012 00:52:53,800 --> 00:52:56,720 they were in the wrong place as Israel claims. 1013 00:52:57,120 --> 00:53:00,600 They were assassinated because Israel wants to destroy sports. 1014 00:53:00,680 --> 00:53:03,400 Yeah, I see this. They wants to destroy the 1015 00:53:03,400 --> 00:53:06,480 athlete world in Gaza. They want, they bombed all of 1016 00:53:06,480 --> 00:53:11,280 the football stadiums, every one of them as and, and FIFA knows 1017 00:53:11,280 --> 00:53:13,400 about all of it. They know that their their 1018 00:53:13,400 --> 00:53:16,160 colleagues of Fatah, Paras and Gaza were killed, but they still 1019 00:53:16,160 --> 00:53:19,480 allow Israelis to play there. But also, I mean, you know, 1020 00:53:19,480 --> 00:53:21,840 it's, it's really funny because what we're talking about 1021 00:53:21,840 --> 00:53:24,320 division, because the Palestinians in Gaza, FIFA 1022 00:53:24,320 --> 00:53:26,920 recognizes only one team for Palestine, national team for 1023 00:53:26,920 --> 00:53:29,600 Palestine. But how can you get this 1024 00:53:29,600 --> 00:53:33,280 national team together? Because Palestine is the the the 1025 00:53:33,280 --> 00:53:35,800 West Bank and Gaza Strip, and they're separated from each 1026 00:53:35,800 --> 00:53:37,440 other. They can't work with each other. 1027 00:53:37,440 --> 00:53:39,960 They can't meet with each other. They can't play with each other. 1028 00:53:40,200 --> 00:53:45,280 Not in Palestine at least, but. Not only that, how many players 1029 00:53:45,280 --> 00:53:50,080 that have died for whatever reason, do you see English 1030 00:53:50,080 --> 00:53:54,880 football clubs, world football clubs, celebrate what they did 1031 00:53:54,880 --> 00:53:57,200 for their clubs? You know you have. 1032 00:53:57,320 --> 00:54:00,840 Many footballers have celebrated at matches because they've died. 1033 00:54:02,000 --> 00:54:04,480 And that's why I think what is very political, I mean, if 1034 00:54:04,480 --> 00:54:07,160 football wasn't political, is that we didn't go after 1035 00:54:07,160 --> 00:54:08,600 footballers and Gaza and kill them. 1036 00:54:08,920 --> 00:54:12,320 And that is footballers were very political because how come 1037 00:54:12,960 --> 00:54:16,760 we, as someone who works in a sport, as someone who is a 1038 00:54:16,760 --> 00:54:21,480 footballer, maybe in the UK, how would you be silent when you see 1039 00:54:21,480 --> 00:54:24,120 your colleagues being killed just because they're 1040 00:54:24,120 --> 00:54:26,960 footballers? There was that incident with and 1041 00:54:26,960 --> 00:54:29,480 his name escapes me with the Palestinian Pele right, was 1042 00:54:29,480 --> 00:54:32,320 murdered by yes, the Zionists and then FIFA put out some kind 1043 00:54:32,320 --> 00:54:33,200 of. That's his. 1044 00:54:33,200 --> 00:54:35,440 Suleiman, Abdullahman. Suleiman Abedius, his. 1045 00:54:35,920 --> 00:54:39,040 Photo here. Yeah, yeah, he's the Pele of of 1046 00:54:39,040 --> 00:54:40,520 Palestine, so. Murdered by the Zionists. 1047 00:54:40,520 --> 00:54:43,320 And then I think FIFA put out some, some awful tweet, just. 1048 00:54:43,320 --> 00:54:45,400 Sort of like. Oh, he seems to have died or 1049 00:54:45,400 --> 00:54:47,520 something. And then it was Mosala, wasn't 1050 00:54:47,520 --> 00:54:48,760 it? Who said he killed him? 1051 00:54:48,760 --> 00:54:50,440 Like, like did he just. Yeah, he got. 1052 00:54:50,440 --> 00:54:51,320 Pulled. He was called. 1053 00:54:51,320 --> 00:54:53,200 He didn't die by himself. It's not. 1054 00:54:53,200 --> 00:54:54,720 Yeah. And I think it's. 1055 00:54:54,720 --> 00:54:56,720 Insane, all that. But they talk, they like the 1056 00:54:56,760 --> 00:54:59,320 Zionists target any symbol of Palestinian cultural identity 1057 00:54:59,320 --> 00:55:01,320 because obviously I don't need to tell you their central 1058 00:55:01,320 --> 00:55:03,880 strategy is the fragmentation of the Palestinian nation, which is 1059 00:55:03,880 --> 00:55:07,360 why they divided it into 48 Palestinians, E Jerusalem, West 1060 00:55:07,360 --> 00:55:10,000 Bank, Gaza, diaspora. They're they're consciously 1061 00:55:10,000 --> 00:55:13,000 trying to chop it up and split it up because the existence of 1062 00:55:13,000 --> 00:55:16,760 so many non Jewish Palestinians in the land of Palestine is an 1063 00:55:16,760 --> 00:55:19,800 existential threat to their grotesque colonial project. 1064 00:55:19,840 --> 00:55:21,320 And from the start they've known that. 1065 00:55:21,680 --> 00:55:24,520 But it, it genuinely seems like it's all unraveling because it's 1066 00:55:24,520 --> 00:55:28,760 that the war criminal Henry Kissinger famously said it in 1067 00:55:28,760 --> 00:55:31,840 the context of Vietnam, right? He said the colonizer wins if 1068 00:55:31,840 --> 00:55:34,920 you just if you wipe out the colonial population, the 1069 00:55:34,960 --> 00:55:37,720 colonized population wins if they survive. 1070 00:55:38,080 --> 00:55:41,120 And the Palestinians have survived, like despite the 1071 00:55:41,120 --> 00:55:45,360 horrific ongoing genocidal onslaught, the Palestinian 1072 00:55:45,400 --> 00:55:49,400 people are still in their land resisting by existing as non 1073 00:55:49,400 --> 00:55:52,360 Jewish Palestinians and for as long as a single Palestinian 1074 00:55:52,360 --> 00:55:55,800 continues to exist, designers. And that's why they tried to 1075 00:55:55,800 --> 00:55:59,600 rewrite history. They will try and change history 1076 00:55:59,600 --> 00:56:01,960 because I don't want Palestinian there. 1077 00:56:02,080 --> 00:56:06,600 Yeah, and in that remark, you know, the is not over. 1078 00:56:06,840 --> 00:56:09,240 But it's very important to remember when we speak about 1079 00:56:09,240 --> 00:56:12,600 sports and when we speak about footballers, the football scene 1080 00:56:12,640 --> 00:56:16,160 now inside itself. So let's watch this short video 1081 00:56:16,160 --> 00:56:43,480 together. I. 1082 00:56:50,960 --> 00:57:12,160 How will? If you haven't looked at it then 1083 00:57:12,160 --> 00:57:14,200 can you start? Up Bina and Nakunil and fija 1084 00:57:14,200 --> 00:57:17,880 Carta fee Indonesia nil musharra cabe is interesting feeble to 1085 00:57:17,880 --> 00:57:21,560 the post Fiat herb Asia El mujaheda le Castle island alfin 1086 00:57:21,560 --> 00:57:30,200 setor Shirin latisa to come fi Costa Rica. 1087 00:57:35,520 --> 00:57:39,800 Yeah, so looking at. This video, so I don't know, I 1088 00:57:39,800 --> 00:57:44,160 don't have many words to to use and I don't know how to see it. 1089 00:57:44,160 --> 00:57:47,680 It's like to say it in a hopeful way that although Israel have 1090 00:57:48,000 --> 00:57:52,000 denied them their legs and many of their limbs, they're still 1091 00:57:52,000 --> 00:57:55,240 trying and they're creating a community, a club, A football 1092 00:57:56,160 --> 00:58:00,400 team, so they can survive. They can have joy of sports as 1093 00:58:00,400 --> 00:58:03,320 the rest of the world. Or to see the crime that Israel 1094 00:58:03,320 --> 00:58:09,200 have created against those young women and men who love sport and 1095 00:58:09,200 --> 00:58:12,520 love football. Well, I think like everything is 1096 00:58:12,520 --> 00:58:13,320 contradictory. Right. 1097 00:58:13,320 --> 00:58:16,040 It's, it's bittersweet and I felt a range of emotions 1098 00:58:16,040 --> 00:58:17,960 watching it, right. I mean, on the one hand, it's 1099 00:58:17,960 --> 00:58:20,960 this staggering testament to the Palestinian spirit, to the 1100 00:58:20,960 --> 00:58:25,320 Palestinian samud, the the will to resist and to continue to 1101 00:58:25,320 --> 00:58:28,280 exist and to play the beautiful game and to find joy amid the 1102 00:58:28,280 --> 00:58:29,720 horrors of the Zionist onslaught. 1103 00:58:30,160 --> 00:58:34,000 But I, I agree that, I mean, it goes to what we were saying that 1104 00:58:34,560 --> 00:58:36,920 the, the notion that football can be apolitical. 1105 00:58:37,200 --> 00:58:39,680 I mean, they're describing being prevented from attending the 1106 00:58:39,680 --> 00:58:42,960 tournament because they're trapped in a concentration camp, 1107 00:58:42,960 --> 00:58:45,120 right? Gaza, the Zionist entity has 1108 00:58:45,120 --> 00:58:48,280 turned Gaza into a concentration camp and it has herded millions 1109 00:58:48,280 --> 00:58:50,320 of people there because they're, they're deemed to be a 1110 00:58:50,320 --> 00:58:52,600 demographic threat because they're not Jewish enough. 1111 00:58:53,080 --> 00:58:55,240 And their football teams are prevented, Their amputee 1112 00:58:55,240 --> 00:58:58,400 football teams are prevented from leaving that concentration 1113 00:58:58,400 --> 00:59:01,080 camp because the concentration camp guards view that as 1114 00:59:01,120 --> 00:59:04,240 threatening. I mean, it's, it's unavoidably 1115 00:59:04,240 --> 00:59:06,040 political. And the solution to the 1116 00:59:06,040 --> 00:59:09,880 political problem is to defeat Zionism, to defeat the apartheid 1117 00:59:09,880 --> 00:59:12,560 state of Israel, to dismantle it, just like we dismantled 1118 00:59:12,560 --> 00:59:15,240 South African apartheid, and to replace it with something far 1119 00:59:15,240 --> 00:59:17,800 more hopeful in which any, like anyone, regardless of their 1120 00:59:18,120 --> 00:59:20,640 religion, their ethnicity, can play the beautiful game. 1121 00:59:21,400 --> 00:59:25,320 It's the courage and the spirit. Of them, you know, it's 1122 00:59:25,360 --> 00:59:30,000 brilliant and as you say, just to carry on because that says a 1123 00:59:30,040 --> 00:59:33,480 big message, yeah, and I'm super proud of them but. 1124 00:59:33,480 --> 00:59:37,280 You know, it's very important to remember that they shouldn't be 1125 00:59:37,280 --> 00:59:39,200 the one standing doing that alone. 1126 00:59:39,760 --> 00:59:43,640 So how important is it for like, you know, footballers, 1127 00:59:43,640 --> 00:59:46,680 celebrities and people who are like known in sport to speak 1128 00:59:46,680 --> 00:59:50,240 about them, to stand for them? Really important. 1129 00:59:50,560 --> 00:59:54,560 But because of fear cancellation, they're not. 1130 00:59:55,400 --> 01:00:02,400 But to Barcelona, you know, come out with a Palestinian flag, 1131 01:00:02,560 --> 01:00:05,960 yeah, great. And it had a real positive 1132 01:00:05,960 --> 01:00:09,200 effect. But I did not like it, 1133 01:00:09,480 --> 01:00:11,880 especially on the people in Gaza like. 1134 01:00:11,880 --> 01:00:15,200 When they see such a stuff in the sports and football matches, 1135 01:00:15,520 --> 01:00:17,360 they love it. Yeah, yeah. 1136 01:00:18,560 --> 01:00:23,520 It's a simple act that. It takes bravery and I don't 1137 01:00:23,520 --> 01:00:27,040 know if Barcelona had said anything prior to it, but he's 1138 01:00:27,040 --> 01:00:31,240 got up there, waved it happily. Why you need, which is 1139 01:00:31,280 --> 01:00:33,600 brilliant. Yeah, I totally agree. 1140 01:00:34,320 --> 01:00:39,040 Can we see some some pictures? Because we say football is not 1141 01:00:39,240 --> 01:00:41,840 political. It's not. 1142 01:00:42,040 --> 01:00:44,800 It is political. And that's the, the, the, the 1143 01:00:44,800 --> 01:00:47,600 fans of Arsenal. After Arsenal won, they 1144 01:00:47,600 --> 01:00:50,800 celebrated with Palestine flags. That's really heartwarming. 1145 01:00:50,800 --> 01:00:54,560 You're happy with it? I love the smile you. 1146 01:00:54,680 --> 01:00:56,880 Sound you. Have you have some support? 1147 01:00:59,480 --> 01:01:06,600 This summer the FIFA will host World Cup in North America, in 1148 01:01:06,600 --> 01:01:09,360 Canada, in the United States and in Mexico. 1149 01:01:09,880 --> 01:01:13,960 And Canada recognizes it of Palestine recently. 1150 01:01:14,280 --> 01:01:17,760 But I wonder what does the recognition of the set of 1151 01:01:17,760 --> 01:01:21,920 Palestine means? When Canada refused the visa 1152 01:01:21,920 --> 01:01:25,600 over 3 delegates from from Palestine, they refused the 1153 01:01:25,640 --> 01:01:28,080 their their visa. So they can't go and participate 1154 01:01:28,080 --> 01:01:30,840 in in the in this place. What does this? 1155 01:01:31,480 --> 01:01:39,760 What does this recognition mean? Is it a cheap words? 1156 01:01:40,320 --> 01:01:43,280 Cheap words for for. Me if you're going to. 1157 01:01:43,280 --> 01:01:48,480 Recognise something why are you denying someone so I I think 1158 01:01:48,480 --> 01:01:51,720 that. Zionism is collapsing. 1159 01:01:51,720 --> 01:01:53,240 I think the Zionist entity is collapsing. 1160 01:01:53,240 --> 01:01:55,280 I think the apartheid state is not long for this world. 1161 01:01:56,400 --> 01:01:58,200 Prediction is among amongst game as they say. 1162 01:01:58,200 --> 01:02:00,160 I don't know what's going to happen, but I just don't see how 1163 01:02:00,160 --> 01:02:02,760 Israel comes back from this. I think we're witnessing the 1164 01:02:02,760 --> 01:02:08,640 final death rattle of a failed colonial experiment. 1165 01:02:09,160 --> 01:02:12,360 And if that's right, then countries like Canada, so-called 1166 01:02:12,360 --> 01:02:14,560 United Kingdom and so on coming out and trying to recognize a 1167 01:02:14,560 --> 01:02:18,160 Palestinian state is a rearguard action, right? 1168 01:02:18,160 --> 01:02:21,560 It's an attempt to save some version of the the failed 1169 01:02:22,240 --> 01:02:23,840 Zionist project in ethno nationalism. 1170 01:02:24,280 --> 01:02:28,040 And I think that, I mean, I remember reading Ben White's 1171 01:02:28,040 --> 01:02:32,440 book, one of his books when I was in Ramallah in 2019. 1172 01:02:32,840 --> 01:02:34,920 And he was talking about what many Palestinians have said, 1173 01:02:34,920 --> 01:02:38,880 right, about how Zionism comes in different flavours. 1174 01:02:38,880 --> 01:02:41,360 But it's all racist. There's no, there's no anti 1175 01:02:41,360 --> 01:02:44,400 racist way to be a Zionist, A Zionist and if you if you 1176 01:02:44,400 --> 01:02:45,360 choose. Zionism, you're choosing. 1177 01:02:45,360 --> 01:02:47,560 Racism, right? And there are some tactical and 1178 01:02:47,560 --> 01:02:50,320 strategic disagreements between different types of Zionists and 1179 01:02:50,320 --> 01:02:53,360 so-called liberal Zionists, which I think is a contradiction 1180 01:02:53,360 --> 01:02:55,920 in terms. I mean, I'm, I have my critique 1181 01:02:55,920 --> 01:02:57,560 of liberalism, but liberalism? Is supposed. 1182 01:02:57,560 --> 01:02:59,480 To believe in universal values, it's supposed to believe in 1183 01:02:59,480 --> 01:03:00,720 human rights. That's incompatible with 1184 01:03:00,720 --> 01:03:02,440 Zionism, which is an openly racist ideology. 1185 01:03:02,800 --> 01:03:05,840 So-called liberal Zionists are open about the fact that they 1186 01:03:05,840 --> 01:03:08,720 want a Palestinian state because they view it as a solution to 1187 01:03:08,720 --> 01:03:12,240 the problem, the demographic problem of having so many non 1188 01:03:12,480 --> 01:03:15,680 Jewish Palestinians living in so-called Israel, right? 1189 01:03:15,680 --> 01:03:17,200 So that's the liberal Zionist solution. 1190 01:03:17,200 --> 01:03:21,080 It's like we should create a second state to to shield 1191 01:03:21,080 --> 01:03:23,880 ourselves from the demographic problem of so many non Jewish 1192 01:03:23,880 --> 01:03:26,240 Palestinians Where the more right wing iterations of 1193 01:03:26,240 --> 01:03:29,280 Zionism, their strategy is just, well, we're seeing it being 1194 01:03:29,280 --> 01:03:30,920 played out now, right? It's just ethnic cleansing and 1195 01:03:30,920 --> 01:03:34,280 genocide. So Zionism might well have a 1196 01:03:34,280 --> 01:03:36,800 very interesting internal dialogue with itself about how 1197 01:03:36,800 --> 01:03:39,480 best to enact its racist project, but those of us who are 1198 01:03:39,480 --> 01:03:41,520 anti racist should reject it entirely. 1199 01:03:41,640 --> 01:03:44,680 There is no special kind of liberal Zionism that that is 1200 01:03:44,760 --> 01:03:47,800 capable of scoring the the circle between a commitment to 1201 01:03:48,160 --> 01:03:50,400 universalism and human equality on the one hand, and a 1202 01:03:50,400 --> 01:03:52,760 commitment to Jewish ethno nationalism on the other. 1203 01:03:53,200 --> 01:03:56,520 It's choose one and those of us who oppose ethno nationalism, 1204 01:03:56,520 --> 01:04:00,040 oppose colonialism, oppose genocide should be clear that 1205 01:04:00,680 --> 01:04:02,400 countries like Canada are no friend to the Palestinian 1206 01:04:02,400 --> 01:04:04,400 people, right? That state has long been a 1207 01:04:04,400 --> 01:04:07,480 supporter of Zionism. And it's not for me to tell the 1208 01:04:07,480 --> 01:04:09,320 Palestinians what their liberation should look like. 1209 01:04:09,320 --> 01:04:13,440 But the more I engage and become embedded in the anti Zionist 1210 01:04:13,440 --> 01:04:15,280 struggle and the more I talk to Palestinian comrades and 1211 01:04:15,280 --> 01:04:18,480 organizations, the clearer it becomes to me based on my 1212 01:04:18,480 --> 01:04:21,200 reading of history, based on my reading of politics, that the 1213 01:04:21,200 --> 01:04:23,800 solution will be a one state solution, that the Zionist 1214 01:04:23,800 --> 01:04:26,400 entity will never allow a real Palestinian state to emerge. 1215 01:04:26,880 --> 01:04:30,040 And the consequence of that will be that, you know, the Zionist, 1216 01:04:30,040 --> 01:04:32,600 as usual, will end up crying because they got what they 1217 01:04:32,600 --> 01:04:34,480 wanted and they're going to, they're going to get their 1218 01:04:34,480 --> 01:04:35,920 single state. Yeah. 1219 01:04:35,920 --> 01:04:37,800 But the problem is there's going to be all these Palestinians in 1220 01:04:37,800 --> 01:04:39,400 it. And at some point, democracy 1221 01:04:39,400 --> 01:04:42,120 will prevail and Zionism will collapse. 1222 01:04:42,360 --> 01:04:44,280 Yeah. So if we looked at. 1223 01:04:44,640 --> 01:04:47,560 Viva in like the BDS terms. They should be boycotting 1224 01:04:47,560 --> 01:04:49,520 Israel, not allowing it for the ICJ. 1225 01:04:49,800 --> 01:04:53,960 Different ruling on Israel. This is a side but another side 1226 01:04:54,000 --> 01:04:56,600 is UEFA. They are for Europeans. 1227 01:04:56,600 --> 01:05:00,640 Why do they have Israel as they are within? 1228 01:05:00,680 --> 01:05:06,040 UEFA, rightly or wrongly, but because it is an apartheid 1229 01:05:06,040 --> 01:05:10,480 state, they should not be allowed to compete, they should 1230 01:05:10,480 --> 01:05:13,240 be kicked out. As I said, sport was an 1231 01:05:13,240 --> 01:05:16,160 important site of struggle against the South African 1232 01:05:16,160 --> 01:05:17,840 apartheid regime. I think they they should 1233 01:05:17,840 --> 01:05:20,360 obviously be kicked out of UEFA, they should be suspended by 1234 01:05:20,360 --> 01:05:21,720 FIFA. This is all obvious and I think 1235 01:05:21,720 --> 01:05:25,280 there there is organising work going on to try to affect that. 1236 01:05:25,880 --> 01:05:27,400 But we we need to, we need to keep. 1237 01:05:27,400 --> 01:05:29,520 Pushing at. That and making that demand. 1238 01:05:30,120 --> 01:05:33,800 I think we were talking about Ireland, the Irish football 1239 01:05:33,800 --> 01:05:37,000 team, you know, and this growing campaign to block the game or 1240 01:05:37,000 --> 01:05:40,120 whatever and to boycott the the match against Israel. 1241 01:05:40,840 --> 01:05:42,520 And you mentioned Eurovision. I mean, again, I just think 1242 01:05:42,520 --> 01:05:45,200 that's a really hopeful sign of the collapse of Zionism, right? 1243 01:05:45,440 --> 01:05:47,920 There was evidence, as I understand it, a vote rigging by 1244 01:05:47,920 --> 01:05:49,680 the Zionist entity, right? Trying to make sure that they 1245 01:05:49,680 --> 01:05:52,680 win or come close to winning Eurovision last time. 1246 01:05:52,920 --> 01:05:54,800 Now everyone's just done. And what is it? 1247 01:05:54,800 --> 01:05:57,200 5 different European countries, including Ireland. 1248 01:05:57,400 --> 01:06:00,120 Ireland is beloved of the Eurovision Song Contest, right? 1249 01:06:00,120 --> 01:06:03,000 Because there was that spell where we want it three years in 1250 01:06:03,000 --> 01:06:05,160 a row, and there was the Father Ted. 1251 01:06:05,160 --> 01:06:07,320 Episode with all these. Conspiratorial theories about we 1252 01:06:07,320 --> 01:06:09,600 keep winning this bloody Song Contest and then we have to host 1253 01:06:09,600 --> 01:06:11,920 it and everything. So like, Ireland is like, you 1254 01:06:11,920 --> 01:06:14,640 know, iconic European nation, very famously, very good at 1255 01:06:14,640 --> 01:06:17,080 singing and song contests. All these other European 1256 01:06:17,080 --> 01:06:19,680 countries are like, we won't be in Eurovision if Israel. 1257 01:06:20,000 --> 01:06:21,720 Yeah. So this non European settler 1258 01:06:21,720 --> 01:06:25,040 colonial, sort of weird British former colony, yeah, gets to 1259 01:06:25,040 --> 01:06:27,240 participate. But Ireland doesn't like it's 1260 01:06:27,240 --> 01:06:28,600 collapsing. Like no one wants to be 1261 01:06:28,600 --> 01:06:30,960 associated with this grotesque failed experiment. 1262 01:06:31,120 --> 01:06:32,520 No. Look at the polling data. 1263 01:06:32,720 --> 01:06:35,120 Like, like, look at their increased isolation. 1264 01:06:35,120 --> 01:06:37,920 Look at the arrest warrants. Like their Prime Minister can't 1265 01:06:37,920 --> 01:06:40,960 even come to the territory they came second to place. 1266 01:06:41,000 --> 01:06:41,720 Yeah. I mean. 1267 01:06:41,920 --> 01:06:43,280 Yeah, I believe that. Let's. 1268 01:06:44,200 --> 01:06:45,600 Be real, everyone despises either. 1269 01:06:45,760 --> 01:06:48,000 But the weird thing are they able to pay? 1270 01:06:48,000 --> 01:06:51,600 The price to collapse those by the Eurovision and UEF and all 1271 01:06:51,600 --> 01:06:55,680 of that only to keep Israel and that have the ICJ rolling, ICC 1272 01:06:55,680 --> 01:06:57,520 rolling and all of those scribes. 1273 01:06:58,360 --> 01:07:00,440 I think at some point under pressure is going to. 1274 01:07:00,440 --> 01:07:01,800 Get too great. I think we're witnessing that 1275 01:07:01,800 --> 01:07:02,960 now. It's unravelling it's completely 1276 01:07:02,960 --> 01:07:04,360 unravelling. So we get to vote for Israel, 1277 01:07:04,360 --> 01:07:06,160 but not these actual European countries. 1278 01:07:06,160 --> 01:07:08,800 Like I mean I'm quite skeptical of the concept of Europe and I 1279 01:07:08,800 --> 01:07:11,400 think it's MSNR who said Europe is indefensible or whatever. 1280 01:07:11,400 --> 01:07:13,320 So like I'm not here to uncritically endorse the 1281 01:07:13,320 --> 01:07:16,240 European song context or Eurovision Song Contest, but I 1282 01:07:16,240 --> 01:07:20,040 just think it's it feels like it's unravelling to me. 1283 01:07:20,040 --> 01:07:22,520 It feels like it's like it's becoming so absurd the lengths 1284 01:07:22,520 --> 01:07:26,240 to which it's becoming necessary to go to try and defence Zionism 1285 01:07:26,240 --> 01:07:27,920 has become completely unsustainable and I think it's 1286 01:07:28,040 --> 01:07:32,080 it it we're we're witnessing the process by which Zionism 1287 01:07:32,080 --> 01:07:33,880 unravels. Yeah, true. 1288 01:07:34,360 --> 01:07:37,960 So. On that note, it's very 1289 01:07:37,960 --> 01:07:40,840 important to remember that people still call what's 1290 01:07:40,840 --> 01:07:46,120 happening in Gaza A ceasefire. Yeah, that's that's the laugh 1291 01:07:46,720 --> 01:07:47,680 exactly. Yeah. 1292 01:07:47,720 --> 01:07:50,880 Who does? The media politician. 1293 01:07:51,200 --> 01:07:52,800 The BBC. The BBC. 1294 01:07:52,800 --> 01:07:55,200 Yeah, they. Don't even have told. 1295 01:07:55,280 --> 01:07:56,760 Yeah, that's what they've got to think. 1296 01:07:56,760 --> 01:08:00,480 Thinks it. Anyone with iota of common sense 1297 01:08:00,760 --> 01:08:03,200 knows all of this hasn't happened. 1298 01:08:03,440 --> 01:08:04,760 Yeah. Ceasefire is when the firing 1299 01:08:04,760 --> 01:08:06,480 ceases, like I think. That's pretty, yeah. 1300 01:08:07,280 --> 01:08:08,560 On the label, yeah. But it's kind of. 1301 01:08:08,560 --> 01:08:10,040 Like an Israeli ceasefire, like what they have with. 1302 01:08:10,040 --> 01:08:11,520 Lebanon, right? Like you stop firing, we 1303 01:08:11,520 --> 01:08:12,480 continue. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 1304 01:08:12,480 --> 01:08:15,640 Francisco has been a ceasefire. For Israelis only when the 1305 01:08:15,640 --> 01:08:17,120 Israelis. Stop being killed. 1306 01:08:17,200 --> 01:08:20,200 Yeah, that's it. And for for the BBC as well. 1307 01:08:20,439 --> 01:08:23,080 Yeah, for the moment, all of that, the moment, Israelis. 1308 01:08:23,080 --> 01:08:26,359 Are hurt. Then they will go out and say 1309 01:08:26,359 --> 01:08:27,319 it's not a. Ceasefire. 1310 01:08:27,720 --> 01:08:29,439 But the Palestinians are not important. 1311 01:08:29,880 --> 01:08:31,880 And in that you can die in hundreds it will. 1312 01:08:31,880 --> 01:08:34,720 Be OK. Yeah, until now, more than 8. 1313 01:08:34,720 --> 01:08:37,000 100 Palestinians have been killed, 900 now. 900 1314 01:08:37,000 --> 01:08:39,479 Palestinians have been killed in Gaza since the beginning of the 1315 01:08:39,479 --> 01:08:42,319 so-called ceasefire. On average four people are 1316 01:08:42,319 --> 01:08:45,040 killed every day. And yesterday we have the image 1317 01:08:45,040 --> 01:08:47,720 of Minna. I don't know if Minna A6 year 1318 01:08:47,720 --> 01:08:51,200 old, year old child who has been bombed yesterday. 1319 01:08:51,560 --> 01:08:54,439 And the story of this child, this beautiful child is very 1320 01:08:54,439 --> 01:08:58,279 painful because a year and two months ago she has her parents 1321 01:08:58,279 --> 01:09:01,439 killed and she was like a wounded child with no surviving 1322 01:09:01,439 --> 01:09:05,160 family and you know the acronym. And yesterday she was herself 1323 01:09:05,680 --> 01:09:13,000 targeted, hit and killed after, you know, just a few days, two 1324 01:09:13,000 --> 01:09:17,000 days away from the head where she should be celebrating having 1325 01:09:17,000 --> 01:09:20,960 her new dresses and all of that. And I don't know why people are 1326 01:09:20,960 --> 01:09:23,720 calling it a ceasefire while our children are still killed. 1327 01:09:23,720 --> 01:09:28,600 And today Israel have sent some of their like, backed militias 1328 01:09:28,600 --> 01:09:32,960 into Gaza from the yellow line or from the yellow yellow line 1329 01:09:32,960 --> 01:09:38,200 to yeah, to, to, to, to go to Madazi camp and kill people, 1330 01:09:38,800 --> 01:09:40,359 Yeah. They're they're making. 1331 01:09:40,359 --> 01:09:42,840 More and more of the land and. Also sending their. 1332 01:09:42,840 --> 01:09:47,319 Militias to kill people, backing them with aircrafts and bombing, 1333 01:09:47,560 --> 01:09:50,920 killing four Palestinians while they were at their homes. 1334 01:09:51,200 --> 01:09:53,960 So it's not a ceasefire. And our beautiful children, our 1335 01:09:53,960 --> 01:09:57,800 beautiful women and men are unfortunately continue to be 1336 01:09:57,800 --> 01:10:00,200 killed in front of the whole world ice. 1337 01:10:00,480 --> 01:10:02,520 It's horrifying. And I, I. 1338 01:10:02,520 --> 01:10:04,000 Don't really have any words. I can't imagine. 1339 01:10:04,320 --> 01:10:06,400 Like it's very difficult for me to imagine what what you and 1340 01:10:06,400 --> 01:10:09,240 your people are going through. But what gives me some hope? 1341 01:10:09,240 --> 01:10:11,160 And I don't want to be crass, right? 1342 01:10:11,160 --> 01:10:13,000 The cost of Palestinians is horrifying. 1343 01:10:13,560 --> 01:10:16,160 But if you look at other anti colonial struggles, the cost is 1344 01:10:16,160 --> 01:10:18,000 often horrifying. You think about the Algerian 1345 01:10:18,000 --> 01:10:20,200 struggle, right? By some estimates, 1,000,000 1346 01:10:20,600 --> 01:10:23,720 Algerians had to die to drive the French out of Algeria. 1347 01:10:23,720 --> 01:10:25,120 But they did. And it's obviously one of the 1348 01:10:25,120 --> 01:10:28,800 most successful instances of anti colonial revolution in 1349 01:10:28,800 --> 01:10:30,440 history. And I think also about the 1350 01:10:30,440 --> 01:10:32,680 Vietnamese example, another horrifying example that was 1351 01:10:33,040 --> 01:10:37,560 backed and participated by the US, 2 million Vietnamese people 1352 01:10:37,560 --> 01:10:39,640 had to tie, but they they defeated the most powerful 1353 01:10:39,640 --> 01:10:43,480 empire in the world. So I mean, I think when we come 1354 01:10:43,480 --> 01:10:45,720 to write the history books, who again, who can say? 1355 01:10:45,760 --> 01:10:48,920 I can't predict the future, but I just don't think Israel is 1356 01:10:48,920 --> 01:10:52,640 going to succeed. And if that's right, then when 1357 01:10:52,640 --> 01:10:55,360 we look back on it, we will see that though it came a horrifying 1358 01:10:55,360 --> 01:10:59,400 cost to Palestinians, I firmly believe that the Palestinians 1359 01:10:59,400 --> 01:11:02,440 are going to triumph over the failed colonial experiment known 1360 01:11:02,480 --> 01:11:06,360 as Zionism, and a much more hopeful single democratic state 1361 01:11:06,440 --> 01:11:10,160 will hopefully emerge. Thank you very much. 1362 01:11:10,160 --> 01:11:12,280 Frank, thank you very much. Thank you. 1363 01:11:12,480 --> 01:11:14,200 I'm really enjoyed this discussion. 1364 01:11:14,200 --> 01:11:16,240 Our first podcast ever on sports. 1365 01:11:16,280 --> 01:11:18,840 Yeah, and we love it, as you could tell. 1366 01:11:18,840 --> 01:11:22,080 I wasn't very. Good at it, maybe. 1367 01:11:22,200 --> 01:11:25,120 No, I really enjoy talking. Well, no. 1368 01:11:25,120 --> 01:11:26,800 You were perfect. Thank you so much for. 1369 01:11:26,800 --> 01:11:29,200 Coming. Yeah, it was very insightful. 1370 01:11:29,360 --> 01:11:31,560 Yeah, So maybe it won't be the last podcast on. 1371 01:11:31,560 --> 01:11:34,600 Sports and definitely we will have you again to talk about 1372 01:11:34,600 --> 01:11:40,240 other stuff Frank and I hope next time we have you we will 1373 01:11:40,240 --> 01:11:45,520 talk about how you won your case against Arsenal. 1374 01:11:45,720 --> 01:11:47,880 When would be the decision? What you. 1375 01:11:47,920 --> 01:11:49,760 Say these things are a better take. 1376 01:11:49,760 --> 01:11:51,040 Oh. OK, there'll be an update at 1377 01:11:51,040 --> 01:11:52,080 some point. OK, one by the other. 1378 01:11:52,080 --> 01:11:54,080 We'll pray. Yeah, well. 1379 01:11:54,200 --> 01:11:55,720 Insane so. We will pray for you. 1380 01:11:55,720 --> 01:11:56,440 We. Will pray for. 1381 01:11:56,440 --> 01:11:58,280 You as well. Thank you very, very much. 1382 01:11:58,280 --> 01:12:00,480 Again, thank you for having me. No, thank you for joining us. 1383 01:12:01,520 --> 01:12:03,160 And we wish you all the best of luck. 1384 01:12:03,240 --> 01:12:05,400 And our audience. Thank you very much for watching 1385 01:12:05,400 --> 01:12:08,080 this episode if you watched it at all. 1386 01:12:08,080 --> 01:12:13,080 And don't forget to stay tuned for all our episodes for our 1387 01:12:13,080 --> 01:12:15,920 chat show every Wednesday at 7:00 PM. 1388 01:12:16,600 --> 01:12:19,480 Thank you very much and goodbye. See you next week. 1389 01:12:19,680 --> 01:12:20,000 Bye.