1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:07,240 You can't maintain this kind of cruel dehumanization in your 2 00:00:07,240 --> 00:00:10,280 day-to-day interaction and treatment of another people. 3 00:00:10,520 --> 00:00:16,079 You can't sustain that without it fundamentally emptying your 4 00:00:16,079 --> 00:00:20,440 own Society of any values. You can't sustain that. 5 00:00:20,720 --> 00:00:23,920 And the remarkable thing is in the months leading up to October 6 00:00:23,920 --> 00:00:29,200 7th 2023, what did you have? You had the largest ever mass 7 00:00:29,280 --> 00:00:33,080 St. protests and mobilisations week after week in Israel 8 00:00:33,280 --> 00:00:37,240 against the judicial overhaul to save Israeli democracy. 9 00:00:37,440 --> 00:00:42,160 And those protests almost never You had a small block, the anti 10 00:00:42,160 --> 00:00:44,680 occupation block. You had a petition, the elephant 11 00:00:44,680 --> 00:00:47,560 in the room, which talked about Palestinians, apartheid, 12 00:00:47,600 --> 00:00:51,600 occupation, how that corrupts. But the the overwhelming message 13 00:00:51,600 --> 00:00:54,880 of those things were save Israeli democracy without 14 00:00:54,880 --> 00:00:57,920 acknowledging that the biggest blemish on that democracy, the 15 00:00:57,920 --> 00:01:01,920 biggest affront to the law, the most corrosive thing for 16 00:01:02,000 --> 00:01:05,840 Israel's inner values and well beings, was its treatment and 17 00:01:05,840 --> 00:01:07,400 remains its treatment of the Palestinians. 18 00:01:07,640 --> 00:01:12,920 That is the backdrop to manufacturing consent for 19 00:01:12,920 --> 00:01:18,800 genocide in the last two years. Hello and welcome back to the 20 00:01:18,800 --> 00:01:21,200 Palestine Deep Dive. My name is Ahmed Al Nahuq, and 21 00:01:21,200 --> 00:01:23,680 I'm a journalist from Palestine, Gaza. 22 00:01:24,360 --> 00:01:27,720 And today I'm joined with Daniel Levy, who is a former Israeli 23 00:01:27,720 --> 00:01:30,600 negotiator. Today we're going to talk about 24 00:01:31,040 --> 00:01:35,280 the future for Gaza, the American, and there's really a 25 00:01:35,320 --> 00:01:40,080 plan for Gaza and much more. Daniel, thank you very much for 26 00:01:40,080 --> 00:01:41,920 joining us today. Pleasure to be with you. 27 00:01:41,920 --> 00:01:45,320 Ahmed, we met many times before, but this is your first interview 28 00:01:45,320 --> 00:01:47,920 with me. Yeah, you were. 29 00:01:47,920 --> 00:01:50,280 You were interviewed by Mark Sutton four years ago. 30 00:01:50,280 --> 00:01:52,120 Yeah. So welcome back to Palestine 31 00:01:52,120 --> 00:01:54,000 Deep Dive. Thank you, good to be back. 32 00:01:54,000 --> 00:01:55,720 Things have moved on since I was last here. 33 00:01:55,720 --> 00:01:58,000 A lot for Palestine deep dive, sadly also for. 34 00:01:58,000 --> 00:02:01,240 Palestine for everyone. I think the world is changing 35 00:02:02,160 --> 00:02:06,400 after October the 7th and, but today, Daniel, if I may, I want 36 00:02:06,400 --> 00:02:12,000 to really delve into the Israeli government mindset and they're 37 00:02:12,000 --> 00:02:16,480 actually plans for Gaza beyond the headlines and beyond the 38 00:02:16,480 --> 00:02:20,440 news because I, me and many others do not trust them 39 00:02:20,440 --> 00:02:23,360 anymore. But before we go to that, allow 40 00:02:23,360 --> 00:02:28,320 me to ask you about your experience working for the 41 00:02:28,320 --> 00:02:31,080 Israeli government back in the 90s. 42 00:02:31,840 --> 00:02:39,360 And I know you worked under a hood, Barack and, and and the 43 00:02:39,360 --> 00:02:43,360 other Prime Minister. Is hakrabeen. 44 00:02:43,360 --> 00:02:44,240 Is Hakrabeen? Yeah. 45 00:02:44,240 --> 00:02:46,520 And I have to be honest, I'm not a fan of either. 46 00:02:46,840 --> 00:02:49,440 I don't like any of them. I have always view the Israeli 47 00:02:49,440 --> 00:02:51,880 government as racist. They hated the Palestinians. 48 00:02:52,280 --> 00:02:54,360 None of them was very good to the Palestinians. 49 00:02:54,760 --> 00:02:57,800 But recently realized that the Israeli government is moving to 50 00:02:57,800 --> 00:03:02,560 the extreme right wing and they have become more genocidal than 51 00:03:02,560 --> 00:03:05,520 ever before. How do you see that change? 52 00:03:05,520 --> 00:03:07,600 What led to that change in the Israeli government? 53 00:03:08,080 --> 00:03:10,040 And there's really society as well. 54 00:03:10,200 --> 00:03:13,040 Yeah. So I, I think you said something 55 00:03:13,040 --> 00:03:17,000 that's really important and and I want to acknowledge that, 56 00:03:17,720 --> 00:03:26,680 which is you don't need to maintain a false notion because 57 00:03:26,680 --> 00:03:29,760 it would be a false notion that there was ever a golden era. 58 00:03:30,400 --> 00:03:33,800 So I don't want to suggest that the the the prime ministers I 59 00:03:33,800 --> 00:03:39,720 served, the government I served, sought a Palestinian fan club or 60 00:03:39,720 --> 00:03:44,080 were sitting in that office thinking how do we guarantee 61 00:03:44,080 --> 00:03:46,480 Palestinian rights and Palestinian freedoms that there 62 00:03:46,480 --> 00:03:49,680 was, there was no golden era, not in the establishment of the 63 00:03:49,680 --> 00:03:54,960 state and the Nakba, not in keeping the the 48 a community 64 00:03:55,240 --> 00:03:59,520 under a military governorate from 1948 to 1966, et cetera. 65 00:04:00,880 --> 00:04:06,960 One can acknowledge that and at the same time acknowledge that 66 00:04:06,960 --> 00:04:14,720 something has happened, that there is a difference when the 67 00:04:15,040 --> 00:04:19,600 societal political structures have gone through a process 68 00:04:19,600 --> 00:04:26,040 where today consent has been manufactured for genocide in 69 00:04:26,040 --> 00:04:29,320 society. That is something qualitatively 70 00:04:29,560 --> 00:04:34,560 different. And if I were to give a one word 71 00:04:36,520 --> 00:04:41,440 encapsulation of how did we get there, the word would be 72 00:04:41,440 --> 00:04:43,640 impunity. Impunity. 73 00:04:43,880 --> 00:04:51,440 The lived experience of Israelis was that we can get away with 74 00:04:51,960 --> 00:04:57,920 anything, anything. And I, I remember having 75 00:04:57,920 --> 00:05:02,200 arguments back back in those days with people who were 76 00:05:02,200 --> 00:05:06,520 saying, yeah, look, he shouldn't be talking to the PLO. 77 00:05:06,520 --> 00:05:10,040 We shouldn't be going down this path, whatever that path was. 78 00:05:10,040 --> 00:05:14,560 And maybe we won't unpack that today, but there's no choice. 79 00:05:14,560 --> 00:05:16,640 The world won't accept it if we don't. 80 00:05:18,320 --> 00:05:21,280 After the first Intifada, it felt like Israel was under a 81 00:05:21,280 --> 00:05:23,640 microscope. It felt like Israel could only 82 00:05:23,640 --> 00:05:30,360 progress economically and in other ways in the region if it 83 00:05:31,960 --> 00:05:35,760 moved in a different direction. 2 wards accepting the 84 00:05:35,760 --> 00:05:40,200 Palestinian acceptance of a let's face it a mini state on 85 00:05:40,200 --> 00:05:45,880 just 22% of the land and the sense was Israel to realise its 86 00:05:45,880 --> 00:05:50,840 potential let's say would have to go down that path and that 87 00:05:50,880 --> 00:05:56,240 that the demography would overwhelm it it it couldn't be a 88 00:05:56,240 --> 00:05:58,640 flourishing country in the community of nations. 89 00:05:58,800 --> 00:06:05,080 Fast forward. Israel undermines every effort 90 00:06:05,080 --> 00:06:07,600 at achieving peace. Israel double s and then 91 00:06:07,600 --> 00:06:11,440 quadruples the number of illegal settlers in the occupied 92 00:06:11,440 --> 00:06:16,120 territories. Israel puts into place an even 93 00:06:16,120 --> 00:06:21,720 more aggressive matrix of control of every aspect of 94 00:06:21,720 --> 00:06:26,000 Palestinian life. And what does it get in return? 95 00:06:26,840 --> 00:06:30,920 Better economic relations? Improved diplomatic standing, 96 00:06:31,960 --> 00:06:34,600 normalization with countries in the region. 97 00:06:35,520 --> 00:06:41,640 You cannot understand what happened in the Israeli response 98 00:06:41,720 --> 00:06:45,800 after October 7th without understanding that the learned 99 00:06:46,040 --> 00:06:51,520 Israeli experience was we can do anything to Palestinians. 100 00:06:52,640 --> 00:06:54,960 And they cost are always getting away with it. 101 00:06:55,040 --> 00:06:57,440 They're getting away with the, with the siege, with afflictive 102 00:06:57,440 --> 00:07:00,160 punishment, with the settlements, which are illegal 103 00:07:00,360 --> 00:07:03,200 according even to the UK. And we're still in the UK where 104 00:07:03,200 --> 00:07:06,400 you said receive products from the Israeli, from the Israeli 105 00:07:06,400 --> 00:07:09,560 settlements and so on. So who is complicit in this 106 00:07:09,800 --> 00:07:12,400 impunity? So everyone. 107 00:07:12,560 --> 00:07:17,880 The well, this combination of on the one hand, the the 108 00:07:18,280 --> 00:07:24,640 intensification of yes, violations of international law, 109 00:07:24,880 --> 00:07:29,080 but also just cruelty in the treatment of Palestinians, the 110 00:07:29,080 --> 00:07:36,880 intensification of that going in tandem with Israel achieving 111 00:07:36,880 --> 00:07:40,880 unprecedented economic growth. Everyone talking about the start 112 00:07:40,880 --> 00:07:44,040 up nation, the high tech superpower. 113 00:07:47,760 --> 00:07:52,360 You then therefore had to make a very different argument with 114 00:07:52,360 --> 00:07:53,800 Israelis. Could you couldn't say to 115 00:07:53,800 --> 00:07:57,640 Israelis listen, like the Palestinians don't like the 116 00:07:57,640 --> 00:08:02,800 Palestinians, but the world is not going to accept this. 117 00:08:03,080 --> 00:08:04,800 We're not going to. And they'd say they'd look at 118 00:08:04,800 --> 00:08:07,240 you and they what, what planet are you from? 119 00:08:07,680 --> 00:08:11,840 Have you seen it? Of course, we hosted a a, a, a 120 00:08:11,840 --> 00:08:13,880 an under something. I can't remember exactly what it 121 00:08:13,880 --> 00:08:15,720 was. Israel hosts a football 122 00:08:15,720 --> 00:08:17,880 tournament. Israel's, you know, Israel is 123 00:08:17,880 --> 00:08:23,680 brought into more and more. You have not only the Abraham 124 00:08:23,680 --> 00:08:27,960 Accords, but you have the I think it was called the the 125 00:08:27,960 --> 00:08:31,360 Negev Forum with all the Arab countries with whom Israel and 126 00:08:31,360 --> 00:08:38,679 may peace. You have I2U2, USAUAE, Israel 127 00:08:38,679 --> 00:08:43,200 and India. And in late September of 2023, 128 00:08:43,760 --> 00:08:47,360 you have the announcement of something called IMEC, the India 129 00:08:47,360 --> 00:08:51,600 Middle East Europe Corridor in the margins of the Indian hosted 130 00:08:51,600 --> 00:08:55,160 G20. And off the back of that, Prime 131 00:08:55,160 --> 00:08:59,520 Minister Netanyahu with his famous graphic nonsense, appears 132 00:08:59,520 --> 00:09:03,800 at the UN at the annual General Assembly in late September 2023 133 00:09:03,800 --> 00:09:08,280 and shows this map of all, of all the countries that Israel is 134 00:09:08,280 --> 00:09:10,440 is rapidly normalizing with, even those it didn't have 135 00:09:10,440 --> 00:09:13,360 relations with. And so you therefore had to make 136 00:09:13,360 --> 00:09:20,040 the case that there was either something fundamentally morally 137 00:09:20,520 --> 00:09:27,720 corroding and corrupting to Israel itself by continuing to 138 00:09:28,040 --> 00:09:31,920 treat these people, treat Palestinians as they did, that 139 00:09:31,920 --> 00:09:34,360 it would be corrosive to Israeli democracy. 140 00:09:34,360 --> 00:09:38,840 You either had to make that case, or you had to make the 141 00:09:38,840 --> 00:09:44,680 case that it was too much of A security albatross. 142 00:09:47,400 --> 00:09:51,360 In a way, you were sending the message if you can't succeed 143 00:09:51,360 --> 00:09:54,560 diplomatically, then there's only one way left. 144 00:09:54,640 --> 00:09:57,600 Undermine our security. But the amazing thing about the 145 00:09:57,600 --> 00:10:08,120 first part, the the Israel as a society, as a polity is going to 146 00:10:08,120 --> 00:10:14,120 pay a price because you can't maintain this kind of cruel 147 00:10:14,120 --> 00:10:18,840 dehumanization in your day-to-day interaction and 148 00:10:18,840 --> 00:10:22,400 treatment of another people. You can't sustain that without 149 00:10:22,400 --> 00:10:28,040 it fundamentally emptying your own Society of any values. 150 00:10:28,960 --> 00:10:32,240 You can't sustain that. And the remarkable thing is, in 151 00:10:32,240 --> 00:10:36,040 the months leading up to October 7th 2023, what did you have? 152 00:10:36,320 --> 00:10:41,560 You had the largest ever mass St. protests and mobilisations 153 00:10:41,640 --> 00:10:45,080 week after week in Israel against the judicial overhaul to 154 00:10:45,280 --> 00:10:48,480 save Israeli democracy and those protests? 155 00:10:48,760 --> 00:10:52,560 Almost never you had a small block, the anti occupation 156 00:10:52,560 --> 00:10:54,480 block. You had a petition, the elephant 157 00:10:54,480 --> 00:10:57,400 in the room, which talked about Palestinians, apartheid, 158 00:10:57,400 --> 00:11:01,360 occupation, how that corrupts. But the the overwhelming message 159 00:11:01,360 --> 00:11:04,680 of those things were save Israeli democracy without 160 00:11:04,680 --> 00:11:07,720 acknowledging that the biggest blemish on that democracy, the 161 00:11:07,720 --> 00:11:11,720 biggest affront to the law, the most corrosive thing for 162 00:11:11,760 --> 00:11:15,640 Israel's inner values and well beings was its treatment and 163 00:11:15,640 --> 00:11:17,200 remains its treatment of the Palestinians. 164 00:11:17,400 --> 00:11:22,720 That is the backdrop to manufacturing consent for 165 00:11:22,720 --> 00:11:25,560 genocide in the last two years. So you said that there's really 166 00:11:25,560 --> 00:11:28,040 society, there's really community will pay the price for 167 00:11:28,040 --> 00:11:30,800 this immorality of the Israeli actions. 168 00:11:30,800 --> 00:11:32,880 But how are they going to be the price? 169 00:11:33,040 --> 00:11:37,840 Because as you have mentioned earlier, economically Israel is 170 00:11:37,840 --> 00:11:41,400 a thriving and everything seems good to the Israelis. 171 00:11:41,520 --> 00:11:43,280 So how are they going to pay the price? 172 00:11:44,600 --> 00:11:46,280 In what way? Well, I'm sorry, this is the 173 00:11:46,280 --> 00:11:51,120 thing. If, if, if a society shifts into 174 00:11:51,280 --> 00:11:57,920 a mentality that what we see in the last two years is OK. 175 00:11:59,760 --> 00:12:05,840 And if those who, who fundamentally disagree with 176 00:12:05,840 --> 00:12:06,960 that. And of course, there are 177 00:12:06,960 --> 00:12:11,480 Israelis who Israeli Jews who fall into that category become 178 00:12:11,480 --> 00:12:17,160 marginalized as dissenters. Then then everything becomes 179 00:12:17,160 --> 00:12:20,760 normalized. Now, I, I would argue that you 180 00:12:20,760 --> 00:12:26,280 then see the kind of society that the, the kind of way in 181 00:12:26,280 --> 00:12:31,880 which Israelis self criminalize every day on social media, 182 00:12:31,880 --> 00:12:35,400 right? So people taking pride in 183 00:12:36,600 --> 00:12:41,760 genocidal acts, in incitement to genocide, in the commissioning 184 00:12:41,760 --> 00:12:48,800 of of acts of such inhumane cruelty, proud to say and do 185 00:12:48,800 --> 00:12:53,560 those things that that is a society in a horrible place. 186 00:12:53,560 --> 00:12:55,400 Now, that's not the kind of cost, right? 187 00:12:55,400 --> 00:12:58,920 So we're not saying, but OK. And yet it's thriving 188 00:12:59,040 --> 00:13:02,840 economically. That fleeting moment when it 189 00:13:02,840 --> 00:13:06,200 was, will Israel still be able to play in international sport? 190 00:13:06,400 --> 00:13:09,560 Will Israel be able to participate in Eurovision? 191 00:13:09,760 --> 00:13:13,120 That fleeting moment where we were saying is public pressure 192 00:13:13,120 --> 00:13:19,760 going to lead to actual cuts in arms sales in trade with Israel? 193 00:13:20,480 --> 00:13:25,720 Will Israelis as I think anyone in in in in any country that 194 00:13:25,840 --> 00:13:28,640 that people can visit freely would perhaps want that 195 00:13:28,640 --> 00:13:32,720 reassurance that anyone visiting right now who has, for instance, 196 00:13:32,720 --> 00:13:35,640 served in the military in the last two years should at the 197 00:13:35,640 --> 00:13:40,240 very least have to sign a a a a a a declaration that they were 198 00:13:40,240 --> 00:13:46,120 not directly involved in the commissioning of genocidal acts 199 00:13:46,120 --> 00:13:49,640 war crimes during that period. All of those things. 200 00:13:50,960 --> 00:13:53,280 I'm not saying they were imminent, don't get me wrong, 201 00:13:53,480 --> 00:13:55,800 but they were on the agenda. They were being discussed. 202 00:13:55,880 --> 00:13:57,080 They're being discussed less now. 203 00:13:57,080 --> 00:13:59,120 I don't personally, I don't think they're going to go away, 204 00:13:59,720 --> 00:14:03,920 but the flip side or the continuation, more of everything 205 00:14:03,920 --> 00:14:11,560 I've said is you only begin to change this if indeed costs and 206 00:14:11,560 --> 00:14:14,960 consequences, a different incentive structure. 207 00:14:15,320 --> 00:14:21,000 If the impunity is replaced by accountability, we're not there. 208 00:14:21,240 --> 00:14:23,600 I think that is the that has been the challenge. 209 00:14:24,480 --> 00:14:26,600 There were significant strides made. 210 00:14:27,080 --> 00:14:31,040 That remains the challenge. Not because Israelis will go the 211 00:14:31,040 --> 00:14:33,320 game's up. OK, what? 212 00:14:33,560 --> 00:14:35,880 What do you want? Some land, but no. 213 00:14:36,120 --> 00:14:44,160 But because it will force first of all on the fringes but then 214 00:14:44,160 --> 00:14:47,800 increasingly mainstream, it will force a different conversation 215 00:14:48,200 --> 00:14:53,040 inside Israeli society because right now not much is being done 216 00:14:53,040 --> 00:14:56,880 by way of holding up a mirror. And what was engineered to 217 00:14:56,880 --> 00:15:00,320 create this consent for genocide needs to be reverse engineered. 218 00:15:00,360 --> 00:15:04,320 And I don't think you can expect Israeli society to summon that 219 00:15:04,320 --> 00:15:06,840 from within. Do you think there will be a 220 00:15:06,840 --> 00:15:10,920 time where when there's really society, there's really normal 221 00:15:10,920 --> 00:15:15,040 average people will look in the mirror and a question what they 222 00:15:15,040 --> 00:15:18,600 have done to Gaza and realize that what they have done to Gaza 223 00:15:18,600 --> 00:15:22,200 is a criminal, it is bad, it is genocide. 224 00:15:22,800 --> 00:15:27,200 Will they either wake up or you think, as long as this impunity 225 00:15:27,200 --> 00:15:30,240 resists they? Will never wake up. 226 00:15:33,800 --> 00:15:41,080 So my answer is going to be the signs are not good, but it's too 227 00:15:41,080 --> 00:15:47,000 early to tell. So does that remarkable book 228 00:15:47,000 --> 00:15:48,440 title. One day everyone will have been 229 00:15:48,440 --> 00:15:50,840 against this. Is that also going to apply to 230 00:15:50,840 --> 00:16:02,640 Israelis now that there are not living Israelis being held in 231 00:16:02,800 --> 00:16:07,600 Gaza? Some Israelis I've spoken to 232 00:16:07,600 --> 00:16:10,480 have described that as a moment where the sun finally set on 233 00:16:10,480 --> 00:16:15,320 October 7th. OK, what it hasn't yet 234 00:16:15,320 --> 00:16:19,400 translated into and the word yet may be optimistic of me to even 235 00:16:19,400 --> 00:16:23,000 put it in the sentence. OK, what it hasn't translated 236 00:16:23,000 --> 00:16:27,200 into is people saying what have we done? 237 00:16:30,280 --> 00:16:36,920 Was that us? I need to know, did these things 238 00:16:36,920 --> 00:16:40,280 that we've tried to keep out, that our media has worked very 239 00:16:40,280 --> 00:16:45,480 hard to keep out, that we've been told rule lies, did those 240 00:16:45,480 --> 00:16:49,760 things happen? You don't have an interrogation 241 00:16:49,760 --> 00:16:53,040 of that question. You don't have in the Zionist 242 00:16:53,040 --> 00:16:57,960 political camp that kind of a critique. 243 00:16:58,240 --> 00:17:05,240 So it's almost a pathetic debate inside Israeli Zionist political 244 00:17:05,240 --> 00:17:08,400 circles. Oh, as as Netanyahu appeased 245 00:17:08,400 --> 00:17:12,960 Hamas too much, are we going to pay a price now on Saudi F35 246 00:17:13,880 --> 00:17:17,839 fighter jet sales? We missed out on getting 247 00:17:17,839 --> 00:17:24,200 normalization on the cheap. That there's there's the willful 248 00:17:24,520 --> 00:17:27,640 denial and the continuation of that trend. 249 00:17:29,280 --> 00:17:36,240 Is there a moment where something that's something that 250 00:17:36,240 --> 00:17:39,080 we can't predict right now causes that to switch? 251 00:17:39,120 --> 00:17:43,320 I, I, I won't say it's not inevitable at the moment. 252 00:17:43,640 --> 00:17:50,320 If anything, the effort is still bludgeoned forward. 253 00:17:52,680 --> 00:17:55,640 Killings every day, still in Gaza, preventing the aid from 254 00:17:55,640 --> 00:17:58,200 getting in. Expansion of military operations 255 00:17:58,200 --> 00:18:01,560 in the West Bank, still bombing Lebanon, still bombing Syria, 256 00:18:02,560 --> 00:18:06,240 still talking about the Seven Front war, still a mobilized 257 00:18:06,240 --> 00:18:10,440 militarized society. What can puncture that? 258 00:18:13,400 --> 00:18:17,440 Is IS is probably the last in question. 259 00:18:17,440 --> 00:18:19,000 Important question one has to address. 260 00:18:21,040 --> 00:18:26,000 Again, at the risk of a sounding naively optimistic, I believe it 261 00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:29,760 can be punctured. I believe societies that have 262 00:18:29,760 --> 00:18:35,160 gone on a genocidal tilt, settler colonial societies have 263 00:18:37,000 --> 00:18:46,600 landed in a different place, but not when there is an effort that 264 00:18:46,600 --> 00:18:51,200 achieves enough of a degree and perhaps a significant degree of 265 00:18:51,200 --> 00:18:55,520 success in normalising what it is doing. 266 00:18:55,800 --> 00:19:04,240 The fact that Israel is not alone in saying well, there's a 267 00:19:04,240 --> 00:19:10,000 ceasefire now, of course there isn't, move on, Nothing to see 268 00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:12,480 here. Anyone who still wants to obsess 269 00:19:12,480 --> 00:19:16,960 over this support posted idea of suffering of these people who 270 00:19:16,960 --> 00:19:23,840 had it coming, Who's that effort is absolutely the shared effort 271 00:19:24,360 --> 00:19:27,040 of Israel's Western allies and perhaps not just its Western 272 00:19:27,040 --> 00:19:29,880 allies. So here in the UK and elsewhere, 273 00:19:30,040 --> 00:19:32,160 it's what? Why would anyone still want to 274 00:19:32,160 --> 00:19:34,960 talk about this? We'll have a conference on aid. 275 00:19:34,960 --> 00:19:36,800 Maybe we'll commit to put some money. 276 00:19:36,960 --> 00:19:39,360 Maybe we'll have three children come here for some medical 277 00:19:39,360 --> 00:19:42,160 treatment, but nothing to see here move on. 278 00:19:42,160 --> 00:19:48,160 So as long as there is enough success in this shared effort to 279 00:19:48,160 --> 00:19:51,320 normalize this situation, it will be harder to puncture that. 280 00:19:51,720 --> 00:19:59,720 But, and I, and I will say this, I think there has been a shift 281 00:19:59,720 --> 00:20:03,360 in the cultural zeitgeist. I think even if one sees. 282 00:20:06,120 --> 00:20:09,080 An abeyance. Even if one sees a lessening of 283 00:20:09,080 --> 00:20:10,680 the mobilization, it's still there. 284 00:20:10,800 --> 00:20:13,160 What people have seen can't be unseen. 285 00:20:13,880 --> 00:20:16,600 People have been politicized around this issue in ways that 286 00:20:16,600 --> 00:20:19,280 it's not going to go away. And one of the main sources of 287 00:20:19,320 --> 00:20:28,720 evidence for me of this change is how actually insane and 288 00:20:29,240 --> 00:20:32,320 totally living in their own dogmatic bubble are the 289 00:20:32,320 --> 00:20:35,120 apologists for this stuff. So when someone who I'd never 290 00:20:35,120 --> 00:20:37,800 heard of, most of us have probably never heard of Sarah 291 00:20:37,800 --> 00:20:40,000 Hurwitz, I don't even know how to say the, the, the, the 292 00:20:40,040 --> 00:20:43,800 surname suddenly goes viral with absolutely. 293 00:20:43,840 --> 00:20:46,840 And and she clearly thinks she's, she's making a really 294 00:20:46,840 --> 00:20:53,000 great point and people look at it and say, did, did, did 295 00:20:53,000 --> 00:20:58,840 something happen to this person? So the the insanity of the 296 00:20:59,240 --> 00:21:04,400 supportive bubble suggests to me that it's not working so well in 297 00:21:04,400 --> 00:21:06,320 her particular instance. Maybe she thinks there's a great 298 00:21:06,320 --> 00:21:08,080 career to be had in this. She sees what's happened to 299 00:21:08,080 --> 00:21:13,400 Barry Weiss, but I don't know. So it's been 26 months since 300 00:21:13,440 --> 00:21:17,400 October the 7th started. There's really military 301 00:21:18,200 --> 00:21:21,160 destroyed. Gaza destroyed the vast majority 302 00:21:21,160 --> 00:21:24,400 of Gaza, building, streets, infrastructure killed. 303 00:21:24,440 --> 00:21:27,360 I don't know how many people in Gaza, their least estimates 304 00:21:27,360 --> 00:21:30,320 70,000, some people say more of 100,000. 305 00:21:32,920 --> 00:21:37,440 They damaged Hamas hugely, to be honest. 306 00:21:37,640 --> 00:21:39,760 They destroyed Hezbollah to some extent. 307 00:21:39,760 --> 00:21:42,160 They bombed Iran, they bombed even Doha. 308 00:21:42,480 --> 00:21:45,520 They bombed the Yemenis and the Houthis. 309 00:21:47,800 --> 00:21:54,160 But my question to you, has Israel really achieved its 310 00:21:54,240 --> 00:22:02,320 military objectives in this war? So first of all, the, the, the 311 00:22:02,320 --> 00:22:06,280 level of destruction is the loss of human life and the human 312 00:22:06,280 --> 00:22:08,600 suffering is incalculable really. 313 00:22:11,080 --> 00:22:16,080 And while there are legitimate and less legitimate 314 00:22:16,080 --> 00:22:19,920 conversations to be had around what reconstruction looks like, 315 00:22:19,920 --> 00:22:21,880 one of the modalities who's in charge? 316 00:22:23,680 --> 00:22:26,840 The truth that we are all facing is I, I, we're struggling to 317 00:22:26,840 --> 00:22:30,760 come to terms with what the obliteration of the fabric of 318 00:22:30,760 --> 00:22:35,000 life in Gaza will mean because that's what we've seen. 319 00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:41,320 And you know, I think it's as of us having this conversation, 582 320 00:22:41,480 --> 00:22:44,400 bodies have been pulled from the rubble and that number is just 321 00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:47,280 going to keep going up. The consequences will be felt 322 00:22:47,280 --> 00:22:51,800 for a generation if not more. And we also see subsequent to 323 00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:57,280 the so-called ceasefire that even in death, Jewish Israelis 324 00:22:57,280 --> 00:22:59,360 and Palestinian Arabs are separate and unequal. 325 00:22:59,360 --> 00:23:04,000 So you can build bring a rubble clearing equipment to search for 326 00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:07,240 bodies into. Gaza for the Israelis. 327 00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:10,720 In order to look for dead Jews, dead Israeli Jews, you can't 328 00:23:10,720 --> 00:23:15,400 bring that equipment in to look for dead Palestinians. 329 00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:20,200 So thousands of thousands. So even in death this this 330 00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:22,560 system of separate and unequal carries over. 331 00:23:25,200 --> 00:23:31,560 Now you could say that obliteration rendering this 332 00:23:31,560 --> 00:23:37,840 space uninhabitable is is a success on the Israeli side in 333 00:23:37,840 --> 00:23:40,640 and of itself. Because it was an objective of 334 00:23:40,640 --> 00:23:42,440 the war. Because I think it became an 335 00:23:42,440 --> 00:23:46,760 objective. I mean, I think if we'd have 336 00:23:46,760 --> 00:23:50,840 been having a conversation in September 2023, I think one 337 00:23:50,840 --> 00:23:59,520 would have said, look, Israel withdrew from Gaza and the 338 00:23:59,520 --> 00:24:04,440 signal it wanted to send and the signal that was absorbed inside 339 00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:06,320 Israelis, we must never do that again. 340 00:24:07,680 --> 00:24:10,200 But going back into Gaza, why do you need it? 341 00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:13,040 Gaza's sealed off. You got 2 million Palestinians. 342 00:24:13,040 --> 00:24:15,360 You don't want to bring them. Yeah, you don't want to bring 343 00:24:15,360 --> 00:24:17,480 them back into the demographic equation. 344 00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:21,080 One of the things that Israel felt it had achieved was it had 345 00:24:21,080 --> 00:24:24,880 removed the two plus million, 2.3 million perhaps Palestinians 346 00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:28,120 in Gaza from this question of the demographic equation in 347 00:24:28,120 --> 00:24:32,280 Greater Israel. Easier to digest the West Bank. 348 00:24:33,960 --> 00:24:38,880 I think what happens after October is well if those two 349 00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:40,800 millionaire back in the equation, how can we get them 350 00:24:40,800 --> 00:24:45,520 out the equation again. And so permanent displacement 351 00:24:45,520 --> 00:24:50,120 and ethnic cleansing is still very much on the agenda and what 352 00:24:50,120 --> 00:24:53,760 you start in Gaza you will replicate in the West Bank. 353 00:24:54,040 --> 00:25:01,280 But then of course, you get what what I think by any reckoning 354 00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:06,800 would be considered military successes in terms of more 355 00:25:06,800 --> 00:25:11,120 broadly the axis of resistance. So when it comes to Hezbollah 356 00:25:11,120 --> 00:25:14,800 clearly diminished capacity, I think Iran is much more 357 00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:19,400 complicated. The fall of Assad in Syria was 358 00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:25,040 clearly not by Israeli design, but Israel is seeking to see how 359 00:25:25,040 --> 00:25:32,120 it can utilize that Gaza much more complicated. 360 00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:34,040 How small? Well. 361 00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:37,520 You can see in the attempts to now say, well, now you have to 362 00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:39,200 disarm. Well, what you couldn't achieve 363 00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:43,280 militarily now, yes, you're not going to achieve an agreement 364 00:25:43,280 --> 00:25:45,840 now. Now, yes, Hamas has been 365 00:25:45,840 --> 00:25:50,200 depleted. Hamas access to arms is, is much 366 00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:52,640 different to what it was. Hamas actually is putting 367 00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:57,880 forward a a very realist position when it comes to how a 368 00:25:57,880 --> 00:26:00,000 long term ceasefire could be sustained. 369 00:26:00,120 --> 00:26:03,360 The kinds of things that one would see elsewhere where the 370 00:26:03,360 --> 00:26:07,680 conflict has not been resolved, where the, the, the, the 371 00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:12,400 aggressive military occupation is there, but there can be an 372 00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:13,760 extended period of ceasefire there. 373 00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:16,920 Non display of weapons, the kinds of weapons that could 374 00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:19,040 perhaps be handed to a trusted third party, et cetera. 375 00:26:19,240 --> 00:26:23,120 Israel is not interested in any of these practical ways forward. 376 00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:29,440 And therein I would say, lies the weakness, the deep weakness 377 00:26:29,800 --> 00:26:33,920 of the Israeli approach because it has no political plan. 378 00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:39,440 It's political plan is domination in the region by 379 00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:43,120 virtue of permanent military superiority. 380 00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:47,480 Israel doesn't have a political plan to go along with that other 381 00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:52,000 than come under our wing other than subjugation. 382 00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:56,840 Which is why, although this may look like a hegemonic plan, it's 383 00:26:56,840 --> 00:27:00,560 probably the wrong word to use because a hegemon has to have a 384 00:27:00,560 --> 00:27:04,000 project that isn't reliant exclusively on permanent 385 00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:08,360 military domination. The Israeli bet is no one can 386 00:27:08,360 --> 00:27:13,760 match us and that the Arab and regional states are sufficiently 387 00:27:13,760 --> 00:27:17,880 compartmentalized in these post colonial nation state structures 388 00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:20,680 that they were put into. And those nation states have to 389 00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:25,120 look out for themselves. So the the leadership of any of 390 00:27:25,120 --> 00:27:28,680 any of those given states in the region will say, well, I need to 391 00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:31,760 look after my own interests. Can we make common cause with 392 00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:32,960 them? Yeah, but we don't really trust 393 00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:36,520 them. Yes, our public watches on their 394 00:27:36,760 --> 00:27:39,000 devices what's being done to Palestinians. 395 00:27:39,040 --> 00:27:42,280 They want us to do more, but that's uncomfortable. 396 00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:45,320 But it's not something we're going to sacrifice our elite 397 00:27:45,320 --> 00:27:50,920 interest in favour of. So the Israeli bet is that even 398 00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:56,680 if Israel is the number one radicalizing, destabilizing 399 00:27:56,680 --> 00:27:59,560 actor in the region, even if Israel is now perceived as a 400 00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:03,440 direct threat to the security of other regional actors, the 401 00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:09,080 bombing in Doha being the most blatant example, even if that is 402 00:28:09,080 --> 00:28:14,040 the case, the states will not be able to come together. 403 00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:17,680 They won't challenge Israel. They will look to double down on 404 00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:20,320 what have been proven to be quite useless security 405 00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:24,720 guarantees from America. I would argue that while that 406 00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:28,440 bet does not sound crazy to any of us who know the region, it is 407 00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:31,880 quite a risky bet because Israel keeps going down the path of 408 00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:34,800 overreach, of more hubris, of taking on more. 409 00:28:35,040 --> 00:28:39,560 And it isn't. It is ignoring the limitations 410 00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:42,680 to its own resilience, which I would argue exist. 411 00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:45,080 Tell me more about these limitations. 412 00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:48,440 Yeah, I will and I and that's ignoring the geopolitical 413 00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:55,040 shifts. So these are emerging in 414 00:28:55,040 --> 00:28:57,600 different ways and and I think there are things that people 415 00:28:58,440 --> 00:29:01,480 understandably pay less attention to in terms of what's 416 00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:05,280 going on in Israel. So one of the things of course 417 00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:09,800 is the extreme ideology. It would be nice if I could tell 418 00:29:09,800 --> 00:29:11,760 you that this is limited to bank variance. 419 00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:15,560 Mantrich and Netanyahu it isn't. They may be qualitatively 420 00:29:15,560 --> 00:29:21,440 different, but I'm not hearing from the so-called Zionist 421 00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:24,200 opposition a fundamentally different vision. 422 00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:30,120 So they'll stay in 30% or 50% of Gaza, not resettle 100% of Gaza. 423 00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:34,120 Yes, there's a difference there. It will be the job more of the 424 00:29:34,120 --> 00:29:38,480 military to remove Palestinians in the West Bank, not the job of 425 00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:43,160 settler militias. OK, there's a, there is a 426 00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:48,440 difference there. But the, the, the ideological 427 00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:54,320 overreach is, is goes quite deep now. 428 00:29:54,400 --> 00:29:56,440 So that's one thing you have, other things you have. 429 00:29:58,160 --> 00:30:00,520 What does Prime Minister Netanyahu do every week? 430 00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:03,760 The beginning of every week, he sends his lawyers to the High 431 00:30:03,760 --> 00:30:06,360 Court. Netanyahu is still in the 432 00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:10,680 process of being cross examined on a weekly basis in the Israeli 433 00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:12,120 High Court. So people may not know this. 434 00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:15,560 Every week his lawyers have to go to the High Court and say the 435 00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:20,200 Prime Minister would really like to not be available on Tuesday, 436 00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:24,080 Wednesday afternoon and Thursday because he has urgent security 437 00:30:24,080 --> 00:30:28,560 matters to deal with. To sustain the credibility of 438 00:30:28,560 --> 00:30:33,400 that appeal to the court, to let Netanyahu off from showing up in 439 00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:38,040 court and being cross examined, you have to be on a permanent 440 00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:40,200 security putting. So there are things like that, 441 00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:42,480 but then there are things that are much more significant. 442 00:30:43,840 --> 00:30:48,440 There are things to do with the Israeli economy and how military 443 00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:52,120 Keynesianism has been deployed in an unusual way in the last 444 00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:56,040 two years, notably around how you've kept reservists showing 445 00:30:56,040 --> 00:30:57,920 up for reserve duty. There's things to do with that. 446 00:30:58,120 --> 00:31:00,120 There's things to do with fragmentation in Israeli 447 00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:02,880 society. The ultra Orthodox, the Haridim 448 00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:06,080 who don't serve in the military, who make up a significant part 449 00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:10,480 of the population, the alien nation of the 48, a Palestinian 450 00:31:10,480 --> 00:31:13,240 Israeli community. So it's it's quite a fragmented 451 00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:22,560 society The the the fact that in the military, it's not a this 452 00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:25,680 isn't a military that has endless reserves of manpower to 453 00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:29,920 keep people coming in serving for for endless amounts of time. 454 00:31:30,720 --> 00:31:34,840 Israel's pain threshold. We saw it wasn't so simple. 455 00:31:35,120 --> 00:31:37,880 Everyone says, oh, the 12 day war with Iran was a cakewalk. 456 00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:39,560 It wasn't so simple. They were running out of 457 00:31:39,560 --> 00:31:44,360 interceptor missiles. So if you look at these 458 00:31:44,360 --> 00:31:49,440 vulnerabilities inside Israeli society, you look at the 459 00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:55,880 mobilization that has gone on on the outside, what's missing is 460 00:31:55,880 --> 00:31:59,160 something that threads these things together and that poses a 461 00:31:59,200 --> 00:32:01,280 different kind of strategic challenge. 462 00:32:02,040 --> 00:32:09,560 But the building blocks for bringing home the limitations, 463 00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:15,760 the areas where the resilience is not there, the divisions in 464 00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:18,360 society, there are real options there. 465 00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:26,640 And then finally we had this American, Israeli, Arab peace 466 00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:29,160 plan, they call it peace plan and ceasefire. 467 00:32:29,960 --> 00:32:33,400 And it's, it wasn't clear there was no actually ceasefire in 468 00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:35,200 Gaza. Every day at least 8 469 00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:38,920 Palestinians are killed. There is a cell very limited 470 00:32:38,920 --> 00:32:40,920 number of trucks that enter Gaza. 471 00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:45,320 Even the goods that they provide to the Gazans is not essentials 472 00:32:45,320 --> 00:32:49,320 at all to have like iPhone 17 and sugary and Nutella and the 473 00:32:49,320 --> 00:32:54,120 sweets no essentials and Israel sell bombing Gaza every day. 474 00:32:54,120 --> 00:32:55,920 This morning Israel bomb Gaza again. 475 00:32:55,920 --> 00:33:00,280 So I what I want to ask you Daniel is what is actually what 476 00:33:00,280 --> 00:33:06,080 was actually discipline beyond the headlines and the the talks 477 00:33:06,160 --> 00:33:08,280 that we hear from the Americans and the Israelis. 478 00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:13,680 Is it going to be accomplished as it was said or is there 479 00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:15,640 anything else that we don't know about? 480 00:33:17,640 --> 00:33:21,480 Well, first of all, you read the plan, you immediately understand 481 00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:26,040 serious people did not draft this plan, let alone people who 482 00:33:26,040 --> 00:33:31,080 understand the region or what is needed or what could be a 483 00:33:31,080 --> 00:33:34,040 genuine path forward. So what you see is in this 20 484 00:33:34,040 --> 00:33:37,200 point plan, which then becomes UN Security Council Resolution 485 00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:43,760 2803, very little is agreed, right? 486 00:33:43,800 --> 00:33:49,440 The only things that are agreed are the release of the Israelis, 487 00:33:50,560 --> 00:33:55,960 the release of Palestinian prisoners, the key for how many 488 00:33:56,120 --> 00:33:59,200 dead Palestinians, dead Palestinians will be returned in 489 00:33:59,200 --> 00:34:04,160 exchange for the dead Israelis. So by the way, Israel says how 490 00:34:04,920 --> 00:34:07,120 inhumane to keep bodies, which I agree with. 491 00:34:07,120 --> 00:34:11,520 By the way, what's Israel doing? It will release 15 now, we don't 492 00:34:11,520 --> 00:34:16,760 know how many bodies Israel will still be keeping once once that 493 00:34:16,760 --> 00:34:20,760 stops, let alone how many people are still being disappeared, are 494 00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:26,560 still being abused. OK, and that's it, right? 495 00:34:27,320 --> 00:34:33,920 The only other thing you have in that agreement is the aid, which 496 00:34:33,920 --> 00:34:37,320 is important and totally violated. 600 trucks a day was 497 00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:42,840 supposed to be the minimum. If you calculate according to 498 00:34:42,840 --> 00:34:46,600 the UN data how many trucks have gone in, it works out since 499 00:34:46,840 --> 00:34:49,840 October 10th. Since the ceasefire, it works 500 00:34:49,840 --> 00:34:54,440 out at about 108 a day, some days zero. 501 00:34:54,560 --> 00:34:56,639 And as you say, look at what is being allowed in. 502 00:34:57,920 --> 00:35:01,600 So you had that and then you have this. 503 00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:06,560 This is the the one of the most problematic things is everyone 504 00:35:06,560 --> 00:35:11,440 signed up for it. What is in that plan? 505 00:35:12,520 --> 00:35:17,760 Hamas agrees and it says in the plan they've agreed to not be 506 00:35:17,760 --> 00:35:19,560 part of the governance structure, which is true. 507 00:35:19,560 --> 00:35:22,720 It was true before October of 2023, by the way, as you know, 508 00:35:22,720 --> 00:35:25,000 as I know, we could have had Palestinian elections. 509 00:35:25,200 --> 00:35:28,040 Sure, Israel, the Americans made those elections more difficult, 510 00:35:28,040 --> 00:35:29,320 but who called off the elections? 511 00:35:29,520 --> 00:35:31,200 Mahmoud Abbas calls off the elections. 512 00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:36,320 So. But what Hamas does not agree to 513 00:35:36,400 --> 00:35:40,600 and won't agree to, and no party that is a resistance while an 514 00:35:40,600 --> 00:35:44,680 illegal belligerent occupation is still going on, will agree to 515 00:35:44,720 --> 00:35:46,920 and has agreed to in history is disarmed. 516 00:35:46,920 --> 00:35:50,480 It's not disarmed. So you have now a gift to 517 00:35:50,480 --> 00:35:52,560 Israel, which is it can continue. 518 00:35:52,560 --> 00:35:54,440 And protects for the continuation of the war. 519 00:35:54,840 --> 00:35:57,160 Exactly. It can continue not to do 520 00:35:57,160 --> 00:35:59,960 anything because it says well the disarmament, but the 521 00:35:59,960 --> 00:36:02,680 disarmament isn't agreed. Even the language of the 20 522 00:36:02,680 --> 00:36:05,640 point plan doesn't say it's agreed, it puts it in the plan. 523 00:36:06,520 --> 00:36:13,080 So what has gone on? Understandably, the hope was 524 00:36:14,200 --> 00:36:19,440 just get the cease-fire, let's stop seeing triple digits killed 525 00:36:19,440 --> 00:36:23,560 every day, Let's get the aid in that. 526 00:36:23,560 --> 00:36:25,960 We've seen some of that. We're almost at 400 though 527 00:36:25,960 --> 00:36:28,200 killed since the so-called ceasefire. 528 00:36:28,560 --> 00:36:32,400 But the hope was that that could lead on to other things. 529 00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:39,640 That hope was not born out of a solid reading of the reality or 530 00:36:39,640 --> 00:36:42,120 the intentionalities. And Netanyahu was quite clear in 531 00:36:42,120 --> 00:36:44,000 terms of what he intended to keep doing. 532 00:36:44,360 --> 00:36:49,080 I think there was this premise, maybe you could build cracks 533 00:36:49,080 --> 00:36:52,280 between Trump and Netanyahu, but look at the team around Trump. 534 00:36:52,440 --> 00:36:56,000 Look at not just Jared Kushner and and Witkoff and others, but 535 00:36:56,000 --> 00:36:59,040 look at who is sitting there day in, day out. 536 00:36:59,040 --> 00:37:05,600 Rea Lightstone, who was the, I don't know, the assistant to 537 00:37:05,600 --> 00:37:09,680 Kushner in the first term, who has worked on the the Abraham 538 00:37:09,680 --> 00:37:11,640 Accords in his own institute ever since. 539 00:37:11,640 --> 00:37:19,440 So these are people thoroughly marinated in Israeli maximalist 540 00:37:19,720 --> 00:37:23,480 positions. Yes, you do have a crack inside 541 00:37:23,480 --> 00:37:28,680 the MAGA movement, but that crack is not being felt on 542 00:37:28,760 --> 00:37:35,800 Palestine in a palpable way. And the hope perhaps was as if 543 00:37:35,800 --> 00:37:39,600 you remembered before the plan, so-called plan is agreed, 544 00:37:42,640 --> 00:37:46,080 President Trump meets with the in New York, with the leaders of 545 00:37:46,120 --> 00:37:48,360 eight Arab and Muslim majority states. 546 00:37:48,640 --> 00:37:51,120 So in addition to those from the region, you have Indonesia, 547 00:37:51,120 --> 00:37:54,400 Pakistan, Turkia. And the hope was these are 548 00:37:54,400 --> 00:37:57,880 people who he clearly has affinity with who can pick up 549 00:37:57,880 --> 00:38:01,400 the phone to Trump that could act as some kind of count 550 00:38:01,560 --> 00:38:05,880 counterbalance to all the Netanyahu whisperers in Trump's 551 00:38:05,880 --> 00:38:12,320 ear. But, and it's a big caveat, the 552 00:38:12,320 --> 00:38:16,200 Netanyahu cohort have their talking points, they have 553 00:38:16,200 --> 00:38:19,320 message discipline and they all repeat the same thing. 554 00:38:19,760 --> 00:38:22,520 The 8 states all have their their states. 555 00:38:22,520 --> 00:38:25,200 It will, it goes back to what I said about these nation state 556 00:38:25,200 --> 00:38:27,360 actors. They have their own equities 557 00:38:27,360 --> 00:38:31,200 with the US, with Trump in the tariff wars, in other things 558 00:38:31,240 --> 00:38:33,960 that they have going on with their own defense arrangements, 559 00:38:33,960 --> 00:38:36,000 with the things they want to buy, the things they want to 560 00:38:36,000 --> 00:38:38,720 avoid. I'm not saying Palestine doesn't 561 00:38:38,720 --> 00:38:40,960 appear on the agenda. Is it item number one? 562 00:38:43,040 --> 00:38:46,200 Probably not. Are they coordinated? 563 00:38:46,200 --> 00:38:50,120 Do they trust each other? Are they going to delegate to 564 00:38:50,120 --> 00:38:53,080 one of those parties to write robust talking points to go to 565 00:38:53,080 --> 00:38:57,080 Trump with? And crucially, is there a 566 00:38:57,200 --> 00:39:02,440 Palestinian National Liberation movement which defines what the 567 00:39:02,440 --> 00:39:03,960 strategy is? No. 568 00:39:04,640 --> 00:39:08,320 And this is what's even worse. And this is what is in the 569 00:39:08,320 --> 00:39:11,440 Security Council resolution. So where are we going now? 570 00:39:12,000 --> 00:39:15,640 So what? So what is in that resolution is 571 00:39:15,640 --> 00:39:20,800 that President Abbas undermines everything that Palestine has 572 00:39:20,800 --> 00:39:24,160 achieved in the international legal arena with the ICJ 573 00:39:24,160 --> 00:39:29,760 advisory opinion of July 2024 and says these are the things we 574 00:39:29,760 --> 00:39:34,400 have to do as Palestinians in order to get our rights. 575 00:39:34,480 --> 00:39:37,640 And that is now enshrined in the UN resolution, which is a 576 00:39:37,680 --> 00:39:39,640 precedent. It's a terrible precedent. 577 00:39:43,640 --> 00:39:49,320 The option still exists that without these partner countries 578 00:39:49,320 --> 00:39:52,960 who are partners to the agreement, one will not get an 579 00:39:52,960 --> 00:39:55,400 international stabilization force which Trump apparently 580 00:39:55,400 --> 00:39:57,600 wants. One will not get the investments 581 00:39:57,600 --> 00:39:59,920 which Trump apparently wants. But those things are still not 582 00:39:59,920 --> 00:40:04,160 being deployed. Nothing prevents A Palestinian 583 00:40:04,160 --> 00:40:08,760 National Salvation Front politically from filling that 584 00:40:08,760 --> 00:40:11,120 vacuum. In reality, of course, many 585 00:40:11,120 --> 00:40:13,720 things do prevent it. The current structures don't 586 00:40:13,720 --> 00:40:16,200 exist. Coincidentally, the current 587 00:40:16,200 --> 00:40:21,640 structures serve Israel, serve the US in many respects, serve 588 00:40:22,360 --> 00:40:26,160 those leadership, those states in the region who want this to 589 00:40:26,160 --> 00:40:30,240 be quiet and down. All of those things will need to 590 00:40:30,240 --> 00:40:36,080 be challenged if we are going to get out of what increasingly 591 00:40:36,080 --> 00:40:42,560 looks like a trap where the American president can say peace 592 00:40:42,560 --> 00:40:45,000 after 3000 years. It's an awfully long wait for 593 00:40:45,000 --> 00:40:48,880 not very much peace. He can make that claim. 594 00:40:50,200 --> 00:40:53,680 Israel remains in occupation of more than 50% of Gaza. 595 00:40:54,240 --> 00:40:58,440 It is trying to make permanent this dividing line within Gaza. 596 00:40:58,800 --> 00:41:02,440 We hear talk of building new communities, the so-called 597 00:41:02,440 --> 00:41:06,040 alternative safe communities. I'm pretty sure that money will 598 00:41:06,040 --> 00:41:10,200 flow to some contractors, to some consultants in in this 599 00:41:10,200 --> 00:41:13,360 whole process. I don't think you're going to 600 00:41:13,360 --> 00:41:16,880 see Palestinians in Gaza saying, where do I sign up to come and 601 00:41:16,880 --> 00:41:20,360 live under the occupation of the people who just genocided me? 602 00:41:20,560 --> 00:41:23,880 And what we can also be quite sure of is these things aren't 603 00:41:23,880 --> 00:41:27,440 going to happen because Israel's cruelty and dehumanization of 604 00:41:27,440 --> 00:41:29,880 Palestinians mean that these won't be zones. 605 00:41:30,320 --> 00:41:33,320 So what you have instead, whether it's in the West Bank or 606 00:41:33,320 --> 00:41:38,120 in Gaza or in the broader region, is the continuation of 607 00:41:38,120 --> 00:41:43,360 this permanent, perpetual overreach, hubristic, maximalist 608 00:41:43,360 --> 00:41:48,560 war footing by a country that has significant vulnerabilities. 609 00:41:48,960 --> 00:41:52,880 But those are not being challenged or tested by a 610 00:41:53,000 --> 00:41:57,280 strategy of a liberation movement of the people who've 611 00:41:57,280 --> 00:42:00,160 just been genocide. You put all that together and 612 00:42:00,280 --> 00:42:02,520 there's plenty to possibly work with. 613 00:42:03,920 --> 00:42:09,080 Daniel, what a very depressing point to end with, but I'm aware 614 00:42:09,080 --> 00:42:11,640 of the time you have another appointment to attend. 615 00:42:11,640 --> 00:42:16,120 So thank you very, very much for joining us today, and I really 616 00:42:16,120 --> 00:42:19,400 hope we will do another podcast very soon. 617 00:42:19,640 --> 00:42:22,320 Before 4 years. Before 4 years, of course. 618 00:42:22,920 --> 00:42:25,240 I, I, I want to say this, I don't want to be depressing. 619 00:42:26,320 --> 00:42:32,760 I, I think we have seen remarkable resilience in the 620 00:42:32,760 --> 00:42:36,240 most impossible of circumstances from Palestinians. 621 00:42:37,200 --> 00:42:42,600 I think we have seen a remarkable mobilization, people 622 00:42:42,600 --> 00:42:48,320 not just aligning themselves with this cause of justice, but 623 00:42:48,320 --> 00:42:51,920 people also seeing the injustices in their own 624 00:42:52,360 --> 00:42:57,080 societies and in the world in which they live through the eyes 625 00:42:57,080 --> 00:42:59,840 of the lies that they're being told by their leaders on 626 00:43:00,080 --> 00:43:02,320 Palestine and what can be done. So we've seen a remarkable 627 00:43:02,320 --> 00:43:07,800 mobilization. If I can say I think there is an 628 00:43:07,800 --> 00:43:13,160 unprecedented debate inside my own Jewish community. 629 00:43:13,600 --> 00:43:17,520 People look people saying not enough, we have lots of work to 630 00:43:17,520 --> 00:43:22,080 do, but people saying this isn't not who we are, not the lessons 631 00:43:22,080 --> 00:43:30,160 we learned from our history. And in Israel, I see that that 632 00:43:30,160 --> 00:43:35,240 there are ways of challenging this by ending by changing that 633 00:43:35,240 --> 00:43:37,200 incentive structure. So I see all those things. 634 00:43:37,200 --> 00:43:40,600 It's not that there aren't threads to pull on and, and, and 635 00:43:40,600 --> 00:43:44,040 I don't want to suggest to people that give up none of 636 00:43:44,040 --> 00:43:49,560 this. Most of the things that gave 637 00:43:49,680 --> 00:43:55,760 openings, that gave moments of hope and actual things that 638 00:43:56,160 --> 00:44:01,120 moved forward were because people tried to hold their 639 00:44:01,120 --> 00:44:05,720 political leaders to account. They went on the streets, they 640 00:44:05,720 --> 00:44:10,400 voted, they raised their voices, they challenged their media, 641 00:44:10,400 --> 00:44:11,880 they challenged their politicians. 642 00:44:12,360 --> 00:44:18,960 And I think if we continue to do those things, then the journey 643 00:44:19,760 --> 00:44:23,680 to change is there, we can see it, it's achievable. 644 00:44:23,760 --> 00:44:25,000 It's not the time to give. Up. 645 00:44:25,120 --> 00:44:28,920 I think that journey has started already has started for since 2 646 00:44:28,920 --> 00:44:31,800 years and I think it will continue to grow and become 647 00:44:31,800 --> 00:44:33,920 bigger and bigger. And I'm very happy that we're 648 00:44:33,920 --> 00:44:36,800 ending with a hopeful note, which is a blessing. 649 00:44:37,240 --> 00:44:38,800 Thank you very much. Thank you so much. 650 00:44:38,800 --> 00:44:39,880 It's really good to see you.