1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:03,400 Most industries since the industrial revolution have 2 00:00:03,400 --> 00:00:06,760 increased productivity overtime, with the exception of 3 00:00:06,760 --> 00:00:08,960 construction. Like in the last decade or so 4 00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:10,640 that we're going down, we're going backwards. 5 00:00:10,640 --> 00:00:14,000 Kateba Alitafi is an architect and writer based in Melbourne, 6 00:00:14,000 --> 00:00:16,440 having practiced both locally and briefly in Japan. 7 00:00:16,480 --> 00:00:19,200 He's worked as part of a number of award-winning officers and 8 00:00:19,200 --> 00:00:22,160 now as Principal Architect of Underwood, a design and build 9 00:00:22,160 --> 00:00:25,000 firm creating custom homes. As a qualified Passivhaus 10 00:00:25,000 --> 00:00:27,960 designer, Kateba is passionate about making sight responsive, 11 00:00:28,200 --> 00:00:31,200 Low environmental impact architect with a sense of place. 12 00:00:31,200 --> 00:00:34,600 Try not to fall in love with the designs initially. 13 00:00:34,600 --> 00:00:36,680 Do you know what I mean? It's very hard to do and 14 00:00:36,680 --> 00:00:39,400 something happens and it feels like it all falls apart. 15 00:00:39,400 --> 00:00:43,000 But I think it's really important to allow the process 16 00:00:43,520 --> 00:00:46,160 to be flexible. I'd like to understand where you 17 00:00:46,160 --> 00:00:49,320 see the relationship that architects have with visual 18 00:00:49,320 --> 00:00:51,720 communication in the future, particularly with, you know, us 19 00:00:51,720 --> 00:00:55,600 being told so much about AII. Guess when it comes to AI, I've 20 00:00:55,600 --> 00:00:58,480 never felt that burying your head in the sand is a good idea. 21 00:00:58,480 --> 00:01:01,880 In our office, we use AI to do menial tasks, and that's what I 22 00:01:01,880 --> 00:01:03,960 think that's probably a very good starting point. 23 00:01:03,960 --> 00:01:07,040 So many young people in architecture struggle with is 24 00:01:07,160 --> 00:01:10,360 that relationship with construction, with sight how 25 00:01:10,360 --> 00:01:12,560 important you think all of those elements are I. 26 00:01:12,560 --> 00:01:16,480 Sort of saw very stark contrast between people who have had side 27 00:01:16,480 --> 00:01:18,680 experience and those who haven't. 28 00:01:18,680 --> 00:01:21,040 You must seek outside experience where possible. 29 00:01:21,080 --> 00:01:24,400 Reimagine the education of an architect more like an 30 00:01:24,400 --> 00:01:26,680 apprenticeship. The design and build process 31 00:01:26,680 --> 00:01:29,040 thought as being the lower quality option. 32 00:01:29,040 --> 00:01:32,640 Is it about you having, you know, your artistic hand held 33 00:01:32,640 --> 00:01:35,880 behind your back, or are you challenging as much as you're 34 00:01:35,880 --> 00:01:37,880 kind of accepting? That's a really good question. 35 00:01:39,840 --> 00:01:43,800 Cateeba Why architecture? What is it about a career in 36 00:01:43,800 --> 00:01:47,000 architecture that keeps you coming back from more, that 37 00:01:47,000 --> 00:01:49,960 keeps you, you know, getting up in the morning and, and and 38 00:01:49,960 --> 00:01:52,120 doing this job? I feel we're very lucky in 39 00:01:52,120 --> 00:01:57,120 architecture in in a lot of ways, the outcome of what we 40 00:01:57,360 --> 00:02:02,640 what we do for a living can be tangible, it can be concrete. 41 00:02:03,000 --> 00:02:05,240 You know, you can feel it, you can smell it, you can touch it. 42 00:02:06,280 --> 00:02:10,120 We also can work on very big picture ideas as well. 43 00:02:11,320 --> 00:02:15,000 And I guess there's often like a tension in architecture, which 44 00:02:15,000 --> 00:02:18,040 I, I personally enjoy. It could be form, it can be 45 00:02:18,360 --> 00:02:21,160 function, it's probably a little bit of both usually. 46 00:02:21,320 --> 00:02:25,440 It could be beauty, it could be ugliness, It, it could be 47 00:02:25,440 --> 00:02:28,040 science, it could be art. And I, I kind of enjoy working 48 00:02:28,040 --> 00:02:31,840 across these themes and, and trying to get that balance 49 00:02:31,840 --> 00:02:33,520 right. A previous employer actually 50 00:02:33,520 --> 00:02:40,240 sent me a message of a year or so ago at that office at the 51 00:02:40,240 --> 00:02:45,920 time, I had worked on a project where I, I sort of Co LED, you 52 00:02:45,920 --> 00:02:48,600 know, the documentation and design and and you know, right 53 00:02:48,600 --> 00:02:52,160 from the concept, let's say, and it took took many, many years. 54 00:02:52,800 --> 00:02:56,360 And so, you know, as you know, say if you worked on apartments, 55 00:02:56,600 --> 00:02:59,160 which is this project is an apartment building with some 56 00:02:59,160 --> 00:03:03,680 townhouses, it, it could take sort of 3-4 years to, to 57 00:03:03,680 --> 00:03:06,960 complete a project of that sort of scale. 58 00:03:07,920 --> 00:03:14,560 And so at that time, I had to left the office and I left 59 00:03:14,920 --> 00:03:17,360 exactly when construction commenced. 60 00:03:17,360 --> 00:03:21,760 And so, yeah, he, he, he just sent me this message. 61 00:03:21,760 --> 00:03:24,160 It was a photograph of the of the building and people have 62 00:03:24,160 --> 00:03:28,320 just moved in and, you know, you could see their things. 63 00:03:28,680 --> 00:03:33,240 There's lights in inside. And suddenly this thing that was 64 00:03:33,240 --> 00:03:36,560 a bunch of scribbles on on a paper was a very real thing 65 00:03:36,560 --> 00:03:39,920 where people live their lives in it and around it. 66 00:03:40,120 --> 00:03:42,520 I don't want to paint a rose tinted view of architecture. 67 00:03:42,520 --> 00:03:44,520 And I don't need to tell you you're an architect yourself, 68 00:03:44,520 --> 00:03:49,000 for instance, like, you know, it can be very, I can be a slog. 69 00:03:49,560 --> 00:03:54,880 It can be very tough, but there is there are very few things in 70 00:03:54,880 --> 00:04:01,000 my personal human experience that give me the, the buzz or 71 00:04:01,000 --> 00:04:05,160 the, you know, the adrenaline rush of the, the excitement as 72 00:04:05,240 --> 00:04:09,640 sort of driving past these completed projects or visiting 73 00:04:09,640 --> 00:04:11,960 them years after they have completed. 74 00:04:12,120 --> 00:04:15,440 You talk about architecture taking a long time, which is I 75 00:04:15,440 --> 00:04:18,680 think something that we all have to come to terms with early in 76 00:04:18,680 --> 00:04:22,400 our careers that, you know, any, any type of architecture takes a 77 00:04:22,400 --> 00:04:24,920 long time to, you know, plan out. 78 00:04:24,920 --> 00:04:27,880 And, you know, if you're lucky enough to actually build, you 79 00:04:27,880 --> 00:04:30,360 know, I, I think that's, that's always such a kind of steep 80 00:04:30,360 --> 00:04:32,880 learning curve, particularly for sort of, you know, young 81 00:04:32,880 --> 00:04:35,600 architects and, you know, depending on the scale of the 82 00:04:35,600 --> 00:04:38,280 building that you're working on, that goes from, you know, a 83 00:04:38,320 --> 00:04:40,200 short period to a very long period of time. 84 00:04:41,680 --> 00:04:44,440 And then secondly, when, you know, the part that you put 85 00:04:44,440 --> 00:04:48,760 probably most beautifully was, was, you know, seeing a 86 00:04:48,760 --> 00:04:52,040 building, you know, finished. And I, I think I still remember 87 00:04:52,040 --> 00:04:57,520 my first time of seeing some ceiling, acoustic ceiling tiles 88 00:04:58,040 --> 00:05:01,040 laid out in a, in a hospital, which was the first project I 89 00:05:01,040 --> 00:05:04,320 worked on. And yeah, those set out that 90 00:05:04,320 --> 00:05:06,880 I'd, I'd drawn and that became a reality. 91 00:05:06,880 --> 00:05:10,360 And however small that was, you know, like you say that that 92 00:05:10,360 --> 00:05:15,320 feeling of, you know, turning what was a drawing into a 93 00:05:15,600 --> 00:05:18,720 building, which, yeah, I think is is, is an amazing thing and 94 00:05:18,720 --> 00:05:21,520 and never goes away. What would you what was your 95 00:05:21,520 --> 00:05:25,600 kind of route into architecture? What are your kind of early kind 96 00:05:25,600 --> 00:05:29,080 of memories and, and you know, family relationships with the 97 00:05:29,080 --> 00:05:32,240 built environment that kind of led you on your path to this 98 00:05:32,240 --> 00:05:35,320 career? So I was always interested in 99 00:05:35,320 --> 00:05:38,600 how things get put together. I, I remember my, my father and 100 00:05:38,600 --> 00:05:43,480 I would go to the library, the local library and would get 101 00:05:43,480 --> 00:05:48,760 books out every Saturday. And I remember seeking books on 102 00:05:49,000 --> 00:05:51,800 how to draw. I was very interested in 103 00:05:51,800 --> 00:05:55,960 drawing. I remember, but also I, it's 104 00:05:55,960 --> 00:05:59,040 going to sound very nerdy, but I was really into Star Wars at the 105 00:05:59,040 --> 00:06:02,600 time and I really liked the sort of cutaway books where, you 106 00:06:03,080 --> 00:06:08,000 know, they'd have the, you know, the X wing and it would be sort 107 00:06:08,000 --> 00:06:10,280 of cut out and you can kind of see how it's sort of put 108 00:06:10,280 --> 00:06:12,360 together. And I'd sort of draw my own 109 00:06:12,360 --> 00:06:16,080 little drawings of that. And, and I think looking back is 110 00:06:16,080 --> 00:06:24,200 probably myself as a child trying to almost deconstruct 111 00:06:24,200 --> 00:06:27,440 something and put it together and make sure things that are 112 00:06:27,440 --> 00:06:34,400 required to run this machine or, you know, the, the structure was 113 00:06:34,400 --> 00:06:37,880 all thought out. And so I sort of treated it as a 114 00:06:38,040 --> 00:06:41,720 bit of a, you know, like a Meccano almost. 115 00:06:43,360 --> 00:06:45,320 And that's how I sort of got into it. 116 00:06:45,320 --> 00:06:49,360 I, I was really into engineering, you know, as a 117 00:06:49,360 --> 00:06:53,200 child, I mean, you know, in terms of structures and, and 118 00:06:53,200 --> 00:06:57,200 that sort of thing. And I suppose also my 119 00:06:57,200 --> 00:06:59,840 upbringing, I mean, let's sort of go back. 120 00:06:59,840 --> 00:07:03,560 I was born in Iraq just to this kind of scenes like the doctor 121 00:07:03,560 --> 00:07:08,400 evil childhood story, you know, the summers, summers in Ranguin, 122 00:07:09,440 --> 00:07:11,600 luge lessons. And what does it say? 123 00:07:11,600 --> 00:07:14,080 So Oh, and in spring we make me tell bits. 124 00:07:14,920 --> 00:07:21,240 My childhood was typical summers in Rangoon, luge lessons in the 125 00:07:21,240 --> 00:07:24,080 spring, we'd make meat helmets, that sort of thing. 126 00:07:24,080 --> 00:07:25,880 But, you know, I was born in a rocket. 127 00:07:26,080 --> 00:07:31,840 And we, you know, my family fled that country during the first 128 00:07:31,880 --> 00:07:33,640 Gulf War. At the time we called it the 129 00:07:33,640 --> 00:07:35,400 Gulf War. I didn't know it was going to be 130 00:07:35,400 --> 00:07:38,400 a second one. And we settled in New Zealand, 131 00:07:39,120 --> 00:07:42,640 which was a beautiful place to be to, to bring up children. 132 00:07:42,800 --> 00:07:44,840 We were very young, my sister and I remember. 133 00:07:45,840 --> 00:07:51,360 And but I, I, you know, it was safe, but I grew up in the outer 134 00:07:51,360 --> 00:07:56,240 suburbs and this details fairly important because it was at that 135 00:07:56,240 --> 00:07:59,400 point where I realized that urban planning and architecture 136 00:07:59,400 --> 00:08:02,560 has, you know, a quite an impact on on human beings. 137 00:08:02,960 --> 00:08:05,160 I really disliked were living there. 138 00:08:05,160 --> 00:08:08,040 I felt like as a, you know, in the outer suburbs, I felt like 139 00:08:08,040 --> 00:08:13,080 as a sort of a almost like a purgatory space. 140 00:08:13,080 --> 00:08:16,360 It wasn't quite in the Bush where you're in the amongst the 141 00:08:16,360 --> 00:08:18,200 trees and you listen to birdsong. 142 00:08:18,840 --> 00:08:21,880 But you also went in a in a sort of vibrancy in the buzz of the 143 00:08:21,880 --> 00:08:27,640 city, sort of a middle ground. And, and later in my career, you 144 00:08:27,640 --> 00:08:31,920 know, obviously as we start to read, you know, architectural 145 00:08:31,920 --> 00:08:36,120 texts, I'm not sure if you know that your listeners in the UK, 146 00:08:37,280 --> 00:08:41,760 certainly a huge name in the last century, Robin Boyd here in 147 00:08:41,760 --> 00:08:47,600 Australia, you know, a Seminole architect, thinker, writer, 148 00:08:48,880 --> 00:08:53,680 communicator to the public, wrote a really beautiful book 149 00:08:53,680 --> 00:08:57,960 called The Australian Ugliness. And having read that, I felt, 150 00:08:57,960 --> 00:09:00,880 well, you know, a sort of a sense of relief that it wasn't 151 00:09:00,880 --> 00:09:07,160 just me feeling this sort of, you know, isolation, this odd 152 00:09:07,160 --> 00:09:13,600 feeling of almost like placelessness. 153 00:09:14,680 --> 00:09:19,160 And so I realized that that that, you know, yes, the 154 00:09:19,160 --> 00:09:21,760 structures, but the things in between it, there's a space in 155 00:09:21,760 --> 00:09:23,480 between. It has an impact on people. 156 00:09:23,480 --> 00:09:26,960 And so that's what really got me into architecture initially. 157 00:09:27,080 --> 00:09:31,560 You, you speak about drawing being very important to you. 158 00:09:31,560 --> 00:09:34,960 And I think for me, that's, that resonates completely. 159 00:09:34,960 --> 00:09:37,600 I mean, you know, let alone the Star Wars thing that that also 160 00:09:37,600 --> 00:09:39,360 resonates quite deeply with me as well. 161 00:09:40,680 --> 00:09:45,360 The, the drawing aspect. How you know, how important has 162 00:09:45,360 --> 00:09:49,760 drawing been as a sort of medium for you in your career moving 163 00:09:49,760 --> 00:09:52,480 forward? And I'd, I'd like to sort of 164 00:09:52,480 --> 00:09:54,440 understand your relationship with it. 165 00:09:54,440 --> 00:09:58,720 And then maybe where you see, you know, the relationship that 166 00:09:58,720 --> 00:10:02,200 architects have with, you know, visual communication in the 167 00:10:02,200 --> 00:10:05,640 future, particularly with, you know, us being told so much 168 00:10:05,640 --> 00:10:07,720 about AI and, and, and things like that. 169 00:10:07,720 --> 00:10:11,440 Where where do you see that sort of the tool of of drawing? 170 00:10:13,040 --> 00:10:14,320 Yeah. I guess it's the sort of 171 00:10:14,320 --> 00:10:20,240 analogue versus the digital. I think drawing at first, I 172 00:10:20,240 --> 00:10:22,360 suppose go back to the, the childhood story. 173 00:10:22,360 --> 00:10:24,600 At first you sort of draw things that you see. 174 00:10:25,840 --> 00:10:29,880 And I guess the next step is to draw things that you can think 175 00:10:29,880 --> 00:10:35,200 of and, and so you can kind of synthesize ideas using drawing. 176 00:10:35,200 --> 00:10:38,960 Using drawing as a way of thinking I feel is still very 177 00:10:38,960 --> 00:10:43,880 much relevant to our work here in our office at Underwood. 178 00:10:45,360 --> 00:10:48,040 Mainly because I, I feel it's, it's a good way to be 179 00:10:48,040 --> 00:10:51,080 unencumbered by the limitations of software. 180 00:10:52,080 --> 00:10:57,840 And I kind of think about it as a bit like spinning many foot 181 00:10:57,840 --> 00:11:00,640 plates at once. You're able to do that using 182 00:11:00,640 --> 00:11:03,040 drawing. There's so much drawing that our 183 00:11:03,040 --> 00:11:05,680 clients don't see. And I, I actually often feel 184 00:11:06,000 --> 00:11:07,560 maybe we should show our clients that. 185 00:11:07,600 --> 00:11:10,520 Maybe we should show the many scraps of piece of paper and, 186 00:11:10,520 --> 00:11:15,280 and yellow trace that goes into coming up with an outcome. 187 00:11:15,440 --> 00:11:20,040 I feel whilst we want to curate a client's experience, we ought 188 00:11:20,040 --> 00:11:23,400 to maybe also invite them into the process a little bit. 189 00:11:25,200 --> 00:11:33,040 And I guess when it comes to AI, I've never felt that burying 190 00:11:33,040 --> 00:11:34,520 your head in the sand is a good idea. 191 00:11:34,960 --> 00:11:40,280 Personally, I think that people probably did that way at the 192 00:11:40,280 --> 00:11:43,680 advent of CAD as well, to their detriment. 193 00:11:44,960 --> 00:11:50,640 But I, I, I sort of saw a very funny meme about this where the 194 00:11:50,640 --> 00:11:53,480 journalist at the Joanne, I figured her name it was, it was 195 00:11:53,480 --> 00:11:55,040 a very, I think it captured it very well. 196 00:11:55,040 --> 00:11:59,760 She said basically that, you know, I want, I want to do my 197 00:11:59,760 --> 00:12:04,400 art and for AI to do my laundry in my, in my dishes. 198 00:12:04,640 --> 00:12:07,440 I don't want AI to do my art so that I can do my laundry and 199 00:12:07,440 --> 00:12:09,840 dishes and dishes. Basically she's saying, you 200 00:12:09,840 --> 00:12:15,000 know, don't let the tail wag the dog, right, and really approach 201 00:12:15,000 --> 00:12:18,760 it with a critical eye. I guess in our office, we use AI 202 00:12:18,760 --> 00:12:21,240 to do menial tasks. And that's what I think that's 203 00:12:21,240 --> 00:12:24,720 that's probably a very good starting point at this point at 204 00:12:24,720 --> 00:12:28,400 this emerging phase of AI transcribing meeting notes, 205 00:12:29,920 --> 00:12:37,240 summarising, you know, long, you know, for both reports and, you 206 00:12:37,240 --> 00:12:40,640 know, that sort of thing. But we still draw with, you 207 00:12:40,640 --> 00:12:42,600 know, by hand at the concept level. 208 00:12:42,600 --> 00:12:45,480 And yeah, I think it's horses for courses really, isn't it? 209 00:12:47,160 --> 00:12:50,040 I always kind of think about it like, you know, I've never had a 210 00:12:50,040 --> 00:12:53,480 problem sort of imagining, you know, an idea in my head and 211 00:12:53,480 --> 00:12:56,160 then, you know, trying to visualize it, however much of A 212 00:12:56,160 --> 00:12:58,800 scribble that comes out it. And like you said, you know, I 213 00:12:58,800 --> 00:13:01,560 don't want to give that bit up to a computer. 214 00:13:01,560 --> 00:13:04,560 I'd much rather have the computer do all the the area 215 00:13:04,560 --> 00:13:06,960 schedules that I don't enjoy, you know, and and that's 216 00:13:06,960 --> 00:13:08,600 probably a lot better at it than I am. 217 00:13:08,720 --> 00:13:10,960 You know, it's it is that it is that aspect. 218 00:13:10,960 --> 00:13:14,840 And I think, you know, when architects speak so much about, 219 00:13:15,160 --> 00:13:18,960 you know, our value and and you know, particularly about fees 220 00:13:18,960 --> 00:13:23,760 and things like that, you know, I do see one clear Ave. is is 221 00:13:23,880 --> 00:13:28,160 efficiency in doing all of that, that back end work that, you 222 00:13:28,160 --> 00:13:32,040 know, we can push ourselves more into the specialism of, you 223 00:13:32,040 --> 00:13:35,560 know, the stuff we do enjoy. And we're good at and the our 224 00:13:35,560 --> 00:13:38,600 training we're good at, yeah, completely helps us with and 225 00:13:38,600 --> 00:13:41,320 yeah, that's right. You mentioned there about 226 00:13:43,200 --> 00:13:47,200 showing clients your drawings, the the, the drawings that don't 227 00:13:47,200 --> 00:13:50,160 make it to the to the final brochure. 228 00:13:51,160 --> 00:13:54,760 How much do you think clients value that skill of drawing? 229 00:13:54,760 --> 00:13:59,040 And, and I think something that I've always played with the sort 230 00:13:59,040 --> 00:14:02,960 of idea within the relationship between how we can communicate 231 00:14:03,000 --> 00:14:06,520 with drawing, like the idea of kind of live drawing or the way 232 00:14:06,520 --> 00:14:08,840 you communicate visually through drawing. 233 00:14:09,240 --> 00:14:12,360 I've always felt that clients have that sort of innate 234 00:14:12,360 --> 00:14:15,400 connection with that. And they're always kind of they, 235 00:14:15,680 --> 00:14:18,680 there's a, there's a joy to it. And I wonder whether you've 236 00:14:18,680 --> 00:14:20,280 ever, you know, you've experienced that with your 237 00:14:20,280 --> 00:14:23,040 clients, how, how you sort of build that relationship with 238 00:14:23,040 --> 00:14:24,920 them. You know, maybe it is through 239 00:14:24,920 --> 00:14:27,680 drawing or in other ways and particularly with the work that 240 00:14:27,680 --> 00:14:32,720 you guys are doing with domestic clients, you know, taking them 241 00:14:32,720 --> 00:14:37,800 on a journey, you know, probably a lot of the time educating them 242 00:14:37,800 --> 00:14:43,960 about the process as well. Yeah, quite often you go into a 243 00:14:43,960 --> 00:14:47,000 meeting and you are very hopefully, very prepared. 244 00:14:48,120 --> 00:14:49,520 We are. We try to be. 245 00:14:50,480 --> 00:14:57,160 And despite best efforts, a client might ask a question and 246 00:14:57,160 --> 00:15:01,280 it may unravel something. Man, you must as an Arctic, I 247 00:15:01,280 --> 00:15:06,360 think, be able to, you know, adopt A nimble stance and be 248 00:15:06,360 --> 00:15:10,320 able to respond accordingly. And I, I think the skill of 249 00:15:10,320 --> 00:15:13,560 drawing and skill of drawing alive and quite a few we, we 250 00:15:13,560 --> 00:15:15,800 walk into a meeting with a client and we have a yellow 251 00:15:15,800 --> 00:15:19,400 trace to one side. And that's sort of with the 252 00:15:19,400 --> 00:15:21,960 understanding that it is still a collaborative process. 253 00:15:21,960 --> 00:15:27,080 It's not just a one way street. So, you know, there's been 254 00:15:27,080 --> 00:15:29,960 meetings where we, you know, we have printer drawings, we have 255 00:15:29,960 --> 00:15:32,280 the yellow traces like, OK, so that doesn't quite work. 256 00:15:33,120 --> 00:15:38,280 And you know, obviously you've got some concerns that we hadn't 257 00:15:38,280 --> 00:15:41,880 uncovered during the discovery process or the, the client 258 00:15:41,880 --> 00:15:44,360 brief. And we talk about it and we draw 259 00:15:45,080 --> 00:15:49,680 and, and it's good because I, I feel it's sort of would skip a 260 00:15:49,680 --> 00:15:53,240 fair few emails doing that sort of thing, being able to, having 261 00:15:53,240 --> 00:15:57,080 that skill to draw live in front of a client. 262 00:15:58,480 --> 00:16:02,120 And I think it demonstrates listening, which is super 263 00:16:02,120 --> 00:16:03,920 important. I think with in terms of a 264 00:16:03,920 --> 00:16:09,320 client service is actively listening to a client and just 265 00:16:09,840 --> 00:16:13,800 and, and, and showing that you've done that and trying to 266 00:16:13,800 --> 00:16:18,960 resolve, you know, a problem at the time. 267 00:16:18,960 --> 00:16:21,240 Now, sometimes that doesn't really work out. 268 00:16:21,240 --> 00:16:25,800 Sometimes you may need to sort of go away and come back to, to 269 00:16:25,800 --> 00:16:27,880 think about that. But certainly you can sort of 270 00:16:27,880 --> 00:16:32,360 the the genesis of an idea or or a solution can take place live 271 00:16:32,360 --> 00:16:36,120 and having the ability to draw at a time is very helpful. 272 00:16:37,200 --> 00:16:39,520 Yeah. I mean you, you touched briefly 273 00:16:39,520 --> 00:16:41,680 on on your sort of process there. 274 00:16:41,680 --> 00:16:45,680 I wonder if we can delve into sort of Underwood's kind of 275 00:16:47,960 --> 00:16:51,680 their, their sort of sell, how they set themselves up as a, a 276 00:16:51,680 --> 00:16:54,600 business, a practice and the kind of unique offer that you 277 00:16:54,600 --> 00:16:57,520 guys kind of bring to the table. Because I think it would be a 278 00:16:57,520 --> 00:17:00,840 very interesting sort of case study, particularly when you 279 00:17:00,840 --> 00:17:04,720 know, architects are trying to look at new business cases for 280 00:17:04,720 --> 00:17:07,720 practices. You know, the idea of that that 281 00:17:07,720 --> 00:17:10,960 you guys are working with of, you know, for a domestic client 282 00:17:11,079 --> 00:17:15,760 having, you know, contractor costing architect all under one 283 00:17:15,760 --> 00:17:19,400 roof, all, you know, singing from the sing same hymn sheet 284 00:17:19,400 --> 00:17:22,359 and working together, you know, feels like an incredibly 285 00:17:22,359 --> 00:17:25,040 attractive proposition for a client. 286 00:17:25,040 --> 00:17:28,600 So I wonder whether you can just touch on, you know, explain to 287 00:17:28,600 --> 00:17:32,640 us how it all works together and you know what a client journey 288 00:17:32,640 --> 00:17:37,240 through that is. So I suppose we sort of going 289 00:17:37,240 --> 00:17:45,240 back, we, Ryan and I, you know, started, you know, pivoted to 290 00:17:45,240 --> 00:17:50,200 this, this way of working design build in, in the one 291 00:17:50,960 --> 00:17:57,040 organization in 2023. It sort of started because we 292 00:17:57,040 --> 00:18:00,240 shared, let's say, a dissatisfaction with the, I'm 293 00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:03,360 going to call it the traditional way of procuring architecture. 294 00:18:03,800 --> 00:18:08,280 And I suppose I will have to assume knowledge with your 295 00:18:08,280 --> 00:18:10,800 listeners as to what that means. It's, you know, designing 296 00:18:11,040 --> 00:18:12,920 architect and builder are separate. 297 00:18:13,440 --> 00:18:18,160 And I think quite often we've, you know, Ryan, who's a, who's a 298 00:18:18,160 --> 00:18:21,720 contractor or a builder and myself as an architect is that 299 00:18:21,840 --> 00:18:24,800 we found that the traditional way of doing things was fairly 300 00:18:24,800 --> 00:18:28,320 disjointed. And it often forced the 301 00:18:28,320 --> 00:18:34,280 architect who's at the sort of forefront of the design process, 302 00:18:34,280 --> 00:18:40,480 obviously, to make a lot of assumptions very early on, which 303 00:18:40,480 --> 00:18:45,520 have which can have a lot of impact on a design outcome, 304 00:18:46,040 --> 00:18:48,640 especially when it comes to buildability and cost control. 305 00:18:50,640 --> 00:18:56,840 And I suppose in past offices where I've worked in, you know, 306 00:18:56,840 --> 00:19:01,560 in that more traditional manner, manner of procurement, despite 307 00:19:01,560 --> 00:19:08,200 all efforts to, you know, cost projects early, say at schematic 308 00:19:08,200 --> 00:19:15,960 design, you know, it's, it was very difficult to, to, to get 309 00:19:15,960 --> 00:19:20,960 that level of expertise. And, you know, there were lots 310 00:19:20,960 --> 00:19:22,200 of projects that were left unbuilt. 311 00:19:22,200 --> 00:19:25,120 You talk about built projects that, that never, you know, left 312 00:19:25,120 --> 00:19:27,960 paper. There were lots of dissatisfied 313 00:19:27,960 --> 00:19:31,120 clients, lots of very awkward phone calls. 314 00:19:31,120 --> 00:19:34,400 And, and, you know, we still sometimes have those, but I feel 315 00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:39,520 it's very different. We, we, you know, as an 316 00:19:39,520 --> 00:19:43,680 architect, I've, I quickly found out, given the dynamic market 317 00:19:43,680 --> 00:19:44,960 we're in, this is putting it lightly. 318 00:19:44,960 --> 00:19:48,160 I mean, we've seen something like 30% increase in cost of 319 00:19:48,160 --> 00:19:53,280 supply and labour in, in, in, in a very short amount of time. 320 00:19:54,160 --> 00:19:58,560 And you know, the old way of doing a square metre, right, You 321 00:19:58,560 --> 00:20:01,440 know, estimate at the, at the beginning. 322 00:20:01,440 --> 00:20:03,440 I just feel it's, it's just fraught. 323 00:20:04,520 --> 00:20:07,360 And to be honest with you, I must admit it's a real luxury to 324 00:20:07,360 --> 00:20:12,360 have access to. You know, trusted trades, not 325 00:20:12,360 --> 00:20:14,520 just not just our construction team. 326 00:20:14,520 --> 00:20:20,760 To give you an example, we, we, we're working on a project and 327 00:20:20,760 --> 00:20:27,400 that particular project, the council mandated the storm water 328 00:20:27,480 --> 00:20:30,240 discharge and the current channel. 329 00:20:30,240 --> 00:20:34,200 Trouble is that we, you know, the levels just won't get us 330 00:20:34,200 --> 00:20:37,160 there and we're staring down the barrel of a, of a pump, a 331 00:20:37,160 --> 00:20:39,760 $20,000 pump. Picked up the phone and called 332 00:20:39,760 --> 00:20:44,880 our go to plumber Steph and, you know, he was able to give us 333 00:20:44,880 --> 00:20:48,680 upfront advice. I just, I can't see it would be 334 00:20:48,680 --> 00:20:51,200 very difficult for me to go back to the old ways of working where 335 00:20:51,200 --> 00:20:52,800 I have to make this huge assumption. 336 00:20:54,440 --> 00:20:56,000 Yeah. It's, it's, it's, I think it's 337 00:20:56,000 --> 00:20:57,800 really good. And I think give the clients, 338 00:20:58,560 --> 00:21:02,600 mainly our clients, but also our design team a huge sense of 339 00:21:02,600 --> 00:21:05,800 certainty that you wouldn't otherwise get. 340 00:21:06,840 --> 00:21:09,800 I think the kind of fascinating thing with that is is, you know, 341 00:21:09,800 --> 00:21:12,960 you kind of speculate on how that works at scale. 342 00:21:12,960 --> 00:21:15,600 And I know you guys, you know, you don't do a lot of sort of 343 00:21:15,600 --> 00:21:16,920 one off houses and things like that. 344 00:21:16,920 --> 00:21:20,400 And, you know, the, the, the, my experience of design and build 345 00:21:20,400 --> 00:21:24,320 in London is, you know, much kind of larger scale things and 346 00:21:24,320 --> 00:21:27,880 the design and build process being sort of sometimes thought 347 00:21:27,880 --> 00:21:32,240 as being the, the lower quality option if you know, the time 348 00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:35,520 cost quality triangle that people think about. 349 00:21:35,520 --> 00:21:39,680 But I think what you guys are doing completely turns that on 350 00:21:39,680 --> 00:21:42,920 its head. And I think the idea of, you 351 00:21:42,920 --> 00:21:45,640 know, when you think about it simplistically, the idea that 352 00:21:45,640 --> 00:21:50,120 the, the contractor, the architect are, you know, in this 353 00:21:50,120 --> 00:21:54,120 thing together providing the product for the, for the client. 354 00:21:54,600 --> 00:21:57,200 You know, you wonder why we do it the other way around, you 355 00:21:57,200 --> 00:22:01,440 know, and you know, I think it is a kind of fascinating and, 356 00:22:01,440 --> 00:22:07,160 and much more kind of forward-looking proposal, I 357 00:22:07,160 --> 00:22:11,800 suppose. I wonder how, how is, does the 358 00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:15,440 dynamic work? And do you, you know, each of 359 00:22:15,440 --> 00:22:18,360 you is coming from a specialism. You know, you are the architect, 360 00:22:19,400 --> 00:22:21,080 you know, you have the contractor, you have the 361 00:22:21,080 --> 00:22:24,240 estimator, everyone has a specific responsibility and you 362 00:22:24,240 --> 00:22:25,680 know, kind of in the traditional way. 363 00:22:26,040 --> 00:22:30,080 And I wonder how how you communicate, how you navigate 364 00:22:30,080 --> 00:22:34,360 that sort of communication process and you know, like you 365 00:22:34,360 --> 00:22:37,520 allude to the value that each of you brings and where you kind of 366 00:22:37,520 --> 00:22:40,360 find balance. You know, is it, is it about you 367 00:22:40,360 --> 00:22:45,000 having, you know, your artistic hand held behind your back or, 368 00:22:45,280 --> 00:22:47,840 you know, are you challenging as much as you're kind of 369 00:22:47,840 --> 00:22:50,920 accepting? Well, that's, that's a really 370 00:22:50,920 --> 00:22:54,240 good question. I mean, I, I do acknowledge that 371 00:22:54,240 --> 00:22:59,280 traditional, you know, we in Australia, we call it DNC has a 372 00:22:59,280 --> 00:23:02,640 bad rap. And like most things, 373 00:23:04,600 --> 00:23:06,640 stereotypes are there for a reason, right? 374 00:23:07,160 --> 00:23:15,400 It's as you said, it's very seen as a very cost driven process, 375 00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:18,080 absolutely. And a compromise. 376 00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:22,240 I guess where this is different is it's actually design LED 377 00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:27,680 design and build, right? And it's interesting because 378 00:23:28,520 --> 00:23:33,160 there's been many times where, you know, I myself, the 379 00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:36,600 designers like, oh, all right, if it's if it's not going to 380 00:23:36,600 --> 00:23:40,640 happen, that's OK. And, and, and Ryan, the contract 381 00:23:40,640 --> 00:23:43,280 is like, no, no, no, no, no, don't, let's not give up on 382 00:23:43,280 --> 00:23:44,600 this. Let's that's, that's, you know, 383 00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:48,000 so, you know, working with a, with a builder who appreciates 384 00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:49,600 design. I mean, that's the thing. 385 00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:52,880 I mean, I feel, I feel one of the reasons why, yeah. 386 00:23:53,080 --> 00:23:55,680 You know, we see this is a no brainer, right? 387 00:23:55,680 --> 00:24:00,400 But I can see now why it, you know, not everyone can do this. 388 00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:02,280 And that's because you need to find the right people. 389 00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:05,440 You need to work with the right people who are who are on the 390 00:24:05,440 --> 00:24:08,560 same path and, and regardless of their vocation and their 391 00:24:08,560 --> 00:24:13,520 speciality. And I suppose in our case, we 392 00:24:13,520 --> 00:24:15,960 like to try to find a balanced approach. 393 00:24:17,240 --> 00:24:22,280 And I sort of, you know, there's a few things we think about to 394 00:24:22,280 --> 00:24:25,720 get there. One of the things is, you know, 395 00:24:25,720 --> 00:24:29,520 we ask ourselves constantly how can our clients and how can our 396 00:24:29,520 --> 00:24:31,360 projects have the cake and to eat it. 397 00:24:31,440 --> 00:24:35,800 Now it's not a 0 sum. You can actually, you can do 398 00:24:35,800 --> 00:24:38,960 both potentially. And, and we see this challenge 399 00:24:38,960 --> 00:24:41,280 as a, you know, as an opportunity. 400 00:24:41,280 --> 00:24:44,680 Do you know, or we, we find that we were hoping, we're hoping and 401 00:24:44,680 --> 00:24:46,760 we're optimistic because you have to be optimistic. 402 00:24:46,920 --> 00:24:50,480 I feel in design sometimes hard to be optimistic, but you must 403 00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:54,960 be in that we we can find a solution and we we back 404 00:24:54,960 --> 00:25:00,520 ourselves and we feel that we can design our way out of most 405 00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:06,440 things. And secondly, we, we try to do a 406 00:25:06,440 --> 00:25:10,480 lot with less. And you know, people talk about 407 00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:14,040 the size of dwellings that I think in Australia, we've got 408 00:25:15,360 --> 00:25:18,040 probably the, I think the biggest houses from what I hear 409 00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:21,640 in the world out, out scaling, even the United States. 410 00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:26,840 So, you know, it's insane. But we're trying to trying to do 411 00:25:26,840 --> 00:25:30,280 a lot with with very little. And I suppose it comes back to 412 00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:36,160 our bringing most things in life, most outlooks with 413 00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:39,320 professional professionals or thinkers or what have you. 414 00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:42,400 That's it comes back to how you how you brought up. 415 00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:47,120 And interestingly, Ryan grew up in the country of Victoria, you 416 00:25:47,120 --> 00:25:50,200 know, where you know, you can't just call someone to come and 417 00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:51,680 fix this thing. They've got to work it out 418 00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:54,520 themselves. Myself, I grew up as an 419 00:25:54,520 --> 00:26:00,600 immigrant, you know, and we, you know, we, we focus on things 420 00:26:00,600 --> 00:26:03,640 basically that are high impact, right? 421 00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:07,400 And, and we, we, we kind of asked ourselves critically, like 422 00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:11,320 do does that bit really need to be a custom design thing? 423 00:26:11,320 --> 00:26:14,720 Are there already made alternatives that can be 424 00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:19,680 integrated into the design? And I think thirdly, we try, we 425 00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:24,000 try not to fall in love with the designs initially. 426 00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:25,840 Do you know what I mean? Like, it's very hard to do. 427 00:26:26,040 --> 00:26:28,680 And I understand it's very seductive, especially when 428 00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:32,600 you've come up with a beautiful, elegant solution and something 429 00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:34,880 happens and it feels like it all falls apart. 430 00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:40,800 But I think it's really important to allow the process 431 00:26:41,360 --> 00:26:45,200 to be flexible. Yes, we have what we call non 432 00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:47,880 negotiables with each project, right. 433 00:26:47,880 --> 00:26:51,080 And what they are, they are sort of high level, high tier 434 00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:56,040 concepts, but sort of the rest of it can be achieved provided 435 00:26:56,040 --> 00:26:59,280 the intent is is met. Yeah. 436 00:26:59,280 --> 00:27:03,240 And and, and every everything that, you know, details or 437 00:27:03,760 --> 00:27:08,680 material selection choices, they would that they should serve 438 00:27:08,680 --> 00:27:11,920 more than one function. And I think of that that then, 439 00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:17,400 you know, that says that that was the correct decision for 440 00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:19,640 that for that role. Yeah. 441 00:27:20,840 --> 00:27:23,720 Do you do you find yourself being more adaptable in the 442 00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:28,040 later stages now because you have that level of trust and you 443 00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:30,480 know, you're working with people that you know, understand 444 00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:34,160 quality, understand design and you know aren't going to be 445 00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:35,320 doing silly things sort of thing. 446 00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:39,200 You know, there's that kind of innate understanding and like 447 00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:42,640 you say, you're coming at it both from a sort of similar work 448 00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:44,760 ethic point of view sort of thing. 449 00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:49,560 Yeah, I, I think also it just comes from like a mutual 450 00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:55,800 respect, you know, the stereotypical Arctic works on 451 00:27:55,960 --> 00:27:59,840 walks onto side, you know, with dark shades on and just points. 452 00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:03,640 You know, I don't think, I think most Arctics aren't like that, 453 00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:05,520 to be honest with you. The ones that I've met, they are 454 00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:08,440 not like that. I, I personally have a huge 455 00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:14,800 respect for trades and, and, and, and, and contractors and 456 00:28:14,800 --> 00:28:17,600 site managers and I can see the stress they go under. 457 00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:21,240 They are, they are under, I should say, and the, and the 458 00:28:21,240 --> 00:28:25,200 level of craft that goes on and the level of interpretation, you 459 00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:30,120 know, from drawings that we, we draw the risk they take. 460 00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:35,680 So obviously, you know, and they, they also then in our, in 461 00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:38,680 our, in our organization construction team also have AI 462 00:28:38,680 --> 00:28:43,160 feel, have a, have a, a mutual respect with for our design team 463 00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:45,120 as well. And they want to achieve similar 464 00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:48,200 things too. We've got a project, I'll just 465 00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:49,880 give you an example. We, we've got a project 466 00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:55,800 currently on site and the site manager there, who's in the 467 00:28:55,800 --> 00:29:03,320 construction team, He, he took it upon himself to, to mark up 468 00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:08,680 our, our reflected ceiling plan. And, you know, he's, he sort of 469 00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:11,720 said to us that, you know, I've worked out that I can actually 470 00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:16,080 increase ceiling heights here. Cost neutral, you know, would 471 00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:19,200 you, what do you think? And I was like, this is really 472 00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:20,560 cool. I mean, a lot of artists were 473 00:29:20,560 --> 00:29:22,000 like, no, just do the thing that was drawn. 474 00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:25,080 Thank you very much. But I, I think for me it was 475 00:29:25,080 --> 00:29:27,760 like, how good's that? I mean, yes, yes, let's go 476 00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:30,800 higher here, let's go higher here, let's keep this one the 477 00:29:30,800 --> 00:29:32,680 same level. There was a a reason for that. 478 00:29:33,040 --> 00:29:38,800 So I think the design and build process I feel naturally allows 479 00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:41,360 for that adaptability to take place. 480 00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:47,360 And also our, our, you know, to give you an idea of how we run 481 00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:50,400 things here, the, the design part and the construction part 482 00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:52,760 work fairly in parallel with one another. 483 00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:58,680 However, we share, we share, you know, organizational values and 484 00:29:58,680 --> 00:29:59,960 that knows that's really important. 485 00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:03,120 And also we have regular check insurance throughout the design 486 00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:06,880 phases again, So it's not just basically a handover or app 487 00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:09,760 building permit. No, no, it's, it's constant peer 488 00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:12,560 review, buildability and costing at every phase. 489 00:30:12,560 --> 00:30:15,800 So front concept, schematic design, design development, 490 00:30:16,160 --> 00:30:19,880 construction documentation and, you know, and then we have a, we 491 00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:24,960 have a page Turner. So at, at the handover from the, 492 00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:27,960 from the design team to the construction team, we go through 493 00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:30,280 the drawings. And it is that, that meeting 494 00:30:30,280 --> 00:30:33,400 really that we establish these the things I've talked about 495 00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:35,480 earlier, which are the non negotiables, What are the things 496 00:30:35,480 --> 00:30:38,680 that we want to achieve? And then how you achieve those? 497 00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:41,800 Let's have a discussion during, during construction. 498 00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:43,520 It's great. I, I, I really like it. 499 00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:46,760 That's a great way to, it does mean that when you're, you do 500 00:30:46,760 --> 00:30:49,520 need to document in a certain way that is a lot more freeing 501 00:30:49,520 --> 00:30:54,480 to allow that to happen. So a lot of intent annotations 502 00:30:54,480 --> 00:30:57,480 and in lieu of, you know, detailing the thing within a, 503 00:30:57,520 --> 00:31:02,600 within an inch of itself, yeah. Yeah, I think it's a really 504 00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:05,000 interesting sort of case study for young architects. 505 00:31:05,000 --> 00:31:09,520 And something that I kind of talked passionately about is, is 506 00:31:09,520 --> 00:31:12,520 getting exposure to site as a young architect. 507 00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:16,280 And, you know, I think one of the things that so many young 508 00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:20,120 people in architecture struggle with is that relationship with 509 00:31:20,320 --> 00:31:23,640 construction, with site, you know, as, as you allude to 510 00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:27,560 understanding, you know, what their lines mean. 511 00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:29,520 You know, it's not just a drawing, it's, you know, it 512 00:31:29,760 --> 00:31:34,000 means this, it means pounds or dollars and, you know, how do 513 00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:38,320 things work together? And I wonder whether you could 514 00:31:38,320 --> 00:31:41,360 touch on the sort of, you know, how important you think all of 515 00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:45,720 those elements are because, you know, to me, having a kind of 516 00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:50,280 understanding of, of how things go together and, and empathy for 517 00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:53,440 the trades and, and, you know, the pressures that people are 518 00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:56,800 under is something that you don't get unless you've gone to 519 00:31:56,800 --> 00:31:59,320 sight, unless you've you've seen those things, unless you've 520 00:31:59,320 --> 00:32:03,480 experienced those conditions and, and understood, you know, 521 00:32:03,520 --> 00:32:07,400 you know, how things meet at the corners, how the junctions work 522 00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:11,080 and, and stuff like that. And yeah, I'd just be interested 523 00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:15,920 to hear your take on on the importance of those aspects, I 524 00:32:15,920 --> 00:32:18,600 suppose. Yeah, I, I think, I honestly 525 00:32:18,600 --> 00:32:22,680 think slight experience is so important for young architects. 526 00:32:24,560 --> 00:32:29,200 I, I, I recall I was doing my registration class, you know, 527 00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:33,960 to, you know, to, to be a licensed architect and there was 528 00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:41,040 a class 20 odd people. And the, the tutor at the time, 529 00:32:41,040 --> 00:32:44,320 he or the person who's taking the course, he, he sort of asked 530 00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:46,360 a question. He said, OK, so you've, you've, 531 00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:48,800 you've received the client brief. 532 00:32:48,800 --> 00:32:52,080 You've, you've, you know, that signed the proposal. 533 00:32:52,560 --> 00:32:54,240 What's the very first thing that you do? 534 00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:58,920 And I sort of saw a very stark contrast between people who have 535 00:32:58,920 --> 00:33:02,480 had side experience and those who haven't. 536 00:33:04,160 --> 00:33:09,080 And yeah, I think it's just, it's a no brainer. 537 00:33:09,080 --> 00:33:11,840 And I, I, I also, you know, use the word empathetic. 538 00:33:11,840 --> 00:33:16,200 I am also empathetic to the fact that a lot of architects, young 539 00:33:16,200 --> 00:33:20,200 architects especially, don't have that opportunity. 540 00:33:20,760 --> 00:33:24,920 They, they are stuck behind a desk and they're just, they're 541 00:33:24,920 --> 00:33:27,400 working on documentation, you know, which is also important. 542 00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:30,480 But I feel partly you must seek it out as a young architect. 543 00:33:30,480 --> 00:33:32,880 You must seek outside experience where possible. 544 00:33:34,760 --> 00:33:38,240 Interestingly, there is a local push, I don't know if it's 545 00:33:38,240 --> 00:33:43,800 happening in the UK or not, to almost reimagine the education 546 00:33:43,800 --> 00:33:49,040 of an architect more like an apprenticeship rather than a, 547 00:33:49,480 --> 00:33:52,440 you know, like at the five year degree that it currently is in 548 00:33:52,440 --> 00:33:56,040 Australia. And, and interestingly, you 549 00:33:56,040 --> 00:34:00,960 know, we have, you know, looking back at his history classes at 550 00:34:00,960 --> 00:34:04,040 university, we know that the likes of Liquebousier did that 551 00:34:04,040 --> 00:34:05,520 too. I mean, they learnt on the job. 552 00:34:05,520 --> 00:34:10,040 They, they, they learnt on site. They, you know, and I, I know 553 00:34:10,040 --> 00:34:12,520 having, you know, I, I personally loved university, 554 00:34:12,520 --> 00:34:14,840 right. I, I, I really, you know, it 555 00:34:14,840 --> 00:34:17,840 worked well for me. I, you know, I was your student. 556 00:34:17,840 --> 00:34:20,000 I actually taught there as well for a short amount of time. 557 00:34:20,520 --> 00:34:27,920 And I wonder if the university experience that I had, I, I 558 00:34:27,920 --> 00:34:32,239 wonder if universities are probably more so good at 559 00:34:32,239 --> 00:34:35,800 creating academics than than the professionals that society need 560 00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:40,000 today. And I, I feel I don't think 561 00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:42,000 one's better than the other. I want to be clear about that. 562 00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:49,040 I think it is probably room for both, but also having, you know, 563 00:34:49,040 --> 00:34:51,960 architects as apprentices. I mean, I look at the 564 00:34:51,960 --> 00:34:56,440 construction crew on site and, you know, imagine getting paid 565 00:34:56,440 --> 00:34:59,400 to, to, to, to learn your job. I mean, how good's that, you 566 00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:03,840 know, it could make it could make it far more accessible to 567 00:35:03,840 --> 00:35:06,000 people to become an architect. Let's face it. 568 00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:08,160 I mean, the fees are astronomical these days. 569 00:35:09,280 --> 00:35:13,360 And yeah, I just, I think it, it probably something's should 570 00:35:13,360 --> 00:35:16,480 change there. Yeah. 571 00:35:16,480 --> 00:35:18,720 And I think it's important to sort of break down those 572 00:35:18,720 --> 00:35:23,400 traditional silos of, you know, site architect. 573 00:35:23,440 --> 00:35:26,240 I mean, with all these little mini titles are coming up and I 574 00:35:26,240 --> 00:35:29,200 see them more in the recruitment world, you know, a documentation 575 00:35:29,200 --> 00:35:31,920 architect or whatever it is. I mean, I just think an 576 00:35:31,920 --> 00:35:35,680 architect's an architect and you kind of need to do, you need to 577 00:35:35,680 --> 00:35:40,400 do the whole lot and personally or at least give it a try. 578 00:35:41,840 --> 00:35:50,320 And I think the sort of also sort of ties into, I guess in my 579 00:35:50,320 --> 00:35:53,240 opinion, the importance of architects not to sort of be 580 00:35:54,280 --> 00:35:57,200 just think of themselves as they can only ever be architects. 581 00:35:57,640 --> 00:36:01,960 A friend of mine said to me that in his opinion, architects, too 582 00:36:01,960 --> 00:36:04,240 many architects are obsessed with being the architects 583 00:36:04,240 --> 00:36:05,680 architect. You know what I mean? 584 00:36:07,280 --> 00:36:13,040 I think there's architects can and should explore using their 585 00:36:13,040 --> 00:36:15,960 skill set and their expertise and their critical thinking and 586 00:36:15,960 --> 00:36:22,560 their design thinking in, in and being city makers, you know, so 587 00:36:22,560 --> 00:36:27,440 that means, you know, like I've seen really talented architects 588 00:36:27,760 --> 00:36:32,520 become design managers, project managers, consultants, admin 589 00:36:32,520 --> 00:36:35,360 designers, public servants, politicians. 590 00:36:36,480 --> 00:36:41,120 So that's also important, not just thinking of yourself as 591 00:36:41,680 --> 00:36:44,640 just an architect, you know? You touch on two really kind of 592 00:36:44,640 --> 00:36:48,320 interesting points there and I so I just want to talk about 593 00:36:49,080 --> 00:36:51,360 both of them in turn. The first one being the 594 00:36:51,360 --> 00:36:54,000 apprenticeship route, which is something I've got experience of 595 00:36:54,000 --> 00:36:56,680 in, in the UK. And I think, like you say, it is 596 00:36:56,680 --> 00:37:01,080 a, it is a sort of very forward-looking and, and 597 00:37:01,080 --> 00:37:05,000 attractive proposition where, you know, the, the, the age-old 598 00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:09,200 long route of, of learning to become an architect becomes much 599 00:37:09,200 --> 00:37:13,240 more entwined with practice, with, you know, industry, with 600 00:37:13,240 --> 00:37:18,200 understanding, you know, the, the, the realities of, you know, 601 00:37:18,200 --> 00:37:20,880 the, the construction process and the built environment around 602 00:37:20,880 --> 00:37:23,120 us. And it's something I'm very kind 603 00:37:23,120 --> 00:37:26,680 of keen on. But I, I think, like you allude 604 00:37:26,680 --> 00:37:30,960 to, you do almost need both aspects of that, because 605 00:37:30,960 --> 00:37:35,280 architecture is, you know, architecture as a sort of 606 00:37:35,280 --> 00:37:39,760 education process allows you to think, allows you to think big 607 00:37:39,760 --> 00:37:42,720 and, and understand cities and understand world problems. 608 00:37:42,720 --> 00:37:46,360 And like you say, can go on to roles that are completely a side 609 00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:50,960 architecture that, you know, look at things, you know, be 610 00:37:50,960 --> 00:37:53,600 able to look at things and, and turn them on their heads. 611 00:37:53,600 --> 00:37:57,400 And, and I suppose it is, it is that balance between, you know, 612 00:37:57,400 --> 00:38:00,600 producing architects that can build buildings that, that 613 00:38:00,600 --> 00:38:03,680 understand process, that understand these things whilst 614 00:38:03,680 --> 00:38:07,320 also not limiting them to that. And it is a kind of fascinating 615 00:38:07,320 --> 00:38:10,720 thing that we have to sort of juggle with and, and the future 616 00:38:10,720 --> 00:38:14,720 generations need to kind of be able to do a bit of both. 617 00:38:14,720 --> 00:38:17,080 And I guess that's the thing that architects, they like to 618 00:38:17,080 --> 00:38:18,880 have their cake and eat it. Like, I think, like you 619 00:38:18,880 --> 00:38:23,080 mentioned before, you know, we, we want to be able to put our 620 00:38:23,080 --> 00:38:26,600 minds to anything and we can. And that is, that is a, that is 621 00:38:26,600 --> 00:38:31,120 a joy to, you know, what being an architect is, I suppose I 622 00:38:31,120 --> 00:38:33,640 wonder with your experience of, I know you're a, you're a 623 00:38:33,640 --> 00:38:38,000 qualified passive House designer and you talk about, you know, 624 00:38:38,640 --> 00:38:41,800 general skills, but also, you know, passive House, for 625 00:38:41,800 --> 00:38:44,000 example, is, is an incredibly specialist skill. 626 00:38:44,000 --> 00:38:48,600 And I, I wanted to sort of ask you what drew you to that, what 627 00:38:48,960 --> 00:38:53,400 value it brings to your clients and, and how much of A market is 628 00:38:53,400 --> 00:38:56,200 there for, you know, passive house type projects, you know, 629 00:38:56,200 --> 00:38:59,320 in, in, in Australia? Yeah. 630 00:38:59,320 --> 00:39:04,320 So I suppose I sort of go back to my education and just to 631 00:39:04,320 --> 00:39:07,480 quickly sort of touch on what you we talked about in terms of 632 00:39:07,840 --> 00:39:13,600 the balance between academia and, and also practice. 633 00:39:13,600 --> 00:39:17,440 And I sort of, you know, I can imagine it maybe the first three 634 00:39:17,440 --> 00:39:21,240 years would be a probably a more academic traditional 635 00:39:21,600 --> 00:39:25,080 architectural learning process. And then perhaps in the last two 636 00:39:25,080 --> 00:39:29,160 years and maybe the last year it can be an apprenticeship. 637 00:39:30,320 --> 00:39:36,040 And I guess for me personally, in order to be a competent 638 00:39:36,040 --> 00:39:41,920 architect, it's always important to remain curious and to learn 639 00:39:41,920 --> 00:39:45,560 new things. I see a lot of architects. 640 00:39:45,640 --> 00:39:49,600 It's almost like, you know, they, it's almost, they're like 641 00:39:49,600 --> 00:39:52,080 martial artists, you know, they tie the black belt around their 642 00:39:52,080 --> 00:39:53,760 waist and like, OK, I know everything. 643 00:39:53,760 --> 00:39:55,800 I don't need to know. They don't even, they don't turn 644 00:39:55,800 --> 00:39:57,600 up. There's lots of architects older 645 00:39:57,600 --> 00:40:00,600 than I who hasn't seen a continuing professional 646 00:40:00,600 --> 00:40:03,000 development seminar in a long time. 647 00:40:03,000 --> 00:40:04,680 And that's just how they are, right? 648 00:40:05,240 --> 00:40:07,080 But I think you must always be learning. 649 00:40:10,120 --> 00:40:13,240 Talking about academic, I, I remember at university, I, I, I 650 00:40:13,240 --> 00:40:19,400 studied the works of Leon Bautista Alberti, who I'm sure 651 00:40:19,400 --> 00:40:22,960 your listeners will be probably aware of who he is. 652 00:40:22,960 --> 00:40:25,800 He was a poet, he was an artist, he was an architect. 653 00:40:26,080 --> 00:40:27,520 It's let's just say he's a polymath. 654 00:40:28,240 --> 00:40:33,840 He's probably well known for coining the word or the term 655 00:40:34,640 --> 00:40:37,840 Homer universalist. And, and what that means is, you 656 00:40:37,840 --> 00:40:39,440 know, literally it's the universal man. 657 00:40:39,440 --> 00:40:41,800 But I think in this day and age, it could be updated to the 658 00:40:41,800 --> 00:40:45,760 universal practitioner. And what he says is that the 659 00:40:45,760 --> 00:40:50,160 architect ought to know a little bit about lots of different 660 00:40:50,160 --> 00:40:53,720 topics in order to be an architect right Now, obviously 661 00:40:53,720 --> 00:40:56,760 specialists would have the working knowledge, the exact 662 00:40:56,760 --> 00:40:59,400 technical knowledge. But as an architect, you must, I 663 00:40:59,400 --> 00:41:03,440 feel to be a cocked architect, you must know and be across the 664 00:41:03,440 --> 00:41:06,600 broader concept of lots of fields that are adjacent to 665 00:41:06,600 --> 00:41:11,800 architecture. And I guess I sadly, I think 666 00:41:11,800 --> 00:41:13,400 architectures sort of dropped the ball there. 667 00:41:13,400 --> 00:41:16,440 I think a lot of architects are almost like, and it may be 668 00:41:16,440 --> 00:41:20,600 because of the tight fees, it probably is, but and they're 669 00:41:20,600 --> 00:41:25,280 getting tighter, but architects are kind of almost like PO boxes 670 00:41:25,280 --> 00:41:30,680 for to consultants. Yes, we have the responsibility, 671 00:41:30,680 --> 00:41:35,280 but we kind of almost, we need to grab it by the horns and 672 00:41:35,280 --> 00:41:39,240 become agents and play an active role rather than a passive role 673 00:41:39,320 --> 00:41:41,520 in an architect. And it orders that we we need to 674 00:41:41,600 --> 00:41:44,880 to know other things. So then, you know, having that 675 00:41:44,880 --> 00:41:49,280 mindset and that sort of drive to learn new things. 676 00:41:49,280 --> 00:41:53,280 I, I got it. I actually initially did a, an 677 00:41:53,280 --> 00:42:00,080 energy assessors course during the lockdown and COVID in I'm 678 00:42:00,080 --> 00:42:02,560 not sure. I'm sure the UK has similar 679 00:42:02,680 --> 00:42:04,800 regulations. We've got operational energy 680 00:42:05,640 --> 00:42:08,880 baseline requirements for code in Australia. 681 00:42:08,880 --> 00:42:13,440 It's called the natters. It's basically a, a, a, a 682 00:42:13,440 --> 00:42:17,320 rating, a star rating from one to 10 for residential buildings 683 00:42:17,320 --> 00:42:21,280 in particular, one being terrible, 10 being uses very 684 00:42:21,280 --> 00:42:24,080 little a dwelling or a house to use very little energy. 685 00:42:25,360 --> 00:42:30,120 And I just wanted to learn and understand this rather than just 686 00:42:30,120 --> 00:42:32,320 kind of receive the report and like, OK, all right. 687 00:42:33,760 --> 00:42:37,920 And, and in doing that, I think I, I, I uncovered a fairly 688 00:42:37,920 --> 00:42:45,120 glaring issue and that is in Australia, the energy rating of 689 00:42:45,120 --> 00:42:48,400 a, of a dwelling is theoretical only it's not verified on site 690 00:42:48,400 --> 00:42:51,760 as built, right. So as a client, you, you think 691 00:42:51,760 --> 00:42:55,800 you're paying for a certain performance, but it's not 692 00:42:55,800 --> 00:43:00,360 verified. And passive house is so, and it 693 00:43:00,360 --> 00:43:03,920 is verified during design. Someone else checks it as a 694 00:43:03,920 --> 00:43:08,760 certifier and then it's verified during construction with, of 695 00:43:08,760 --> 00:43:12,080 photographic evidence of insulation and thermal brakes. 696 00:43:12,840 --> 00:43:17,280 And also it is verified, you know, at at the end of 697 00:43:17,280 --> 00:43:20,720 construction, I should say, with a, with a door blower blow door 698 00:43:21,040 --> 00:43:24,200 test for air tightness. And, and from that I really took 699 00:43:24,200 --> 00:43:28,640 this sort of, you know, the importance of evidence based 700 00:43:30,120 --> 00:43:33,000 approaches to sustainability rather than that, you know, in 701 00:43:33,000 --> 00:43:36,040 Australia we have the saying she'll be right, you know, so I 702 00:43:36,040 --> 00:43:38,120 think the numbers do matter, right. 703 00:43:39,240 --> 00:43:43,440 And I think passive house, whilst, let's be honest, I don't 704 00:43:43,440 --> 00:43:48,160 think every project can is going to be a passive house is often, 705 00:43:48,560 --> 00:43:51,280 you know, sustainability or sustainable design, I should 706 00:43:51,280 --> 00:43:52,920 say, is not immune to the economics. 707 00:43:53,040 --> 00:43:58,920 It just isn't. However, you can, you can adopt 708 00:43:58,920 --> 00:44:00,800 A lot of the principles, the core principles of it. 709 00:44:01,560 --> 00:44:05,160 And you know, we check and that installation has been installed 710 00:44:05,160 --> 00:44:07,520 properly during construction because you know, we're, we're 711 00:44:07,520 --> 00:44:12,760 on site all the time. So we also what, what we also do 712 00:44:12,760 --> 00:44:15,760 here, we've got, we've got incredible access to real world 713 00:44:15,760 --> 00:44:18,320 numbers, right? And we want to leverage that. 714 00:44:18,320 --> 00:44:21,640 One of the things we're doing is understanding what actually 715 00:44:21,640 --> 00:44:25,080 moves the needle with regards to sustainable initiatives. 716 00:44:26,320 --> 00:44:34,240 And for example, you know in Australia the standard timber 717 00:44:34,240 --> 00:44:36,760 construction size is 90 millimetres. 718 00:44:36,800 --> 00:44:39,000 I don't know what it's in the UK, it's 90 millimetres. 719 00:44:39,000 --> 00:44:45,640 So tops at about our 2.7 installation value and we're 720 00:44:45,640 --> 00:44:49,000 testing what does that mean to increase just the external 721 00:44:49,000 --> 00:44:54,840 envelope to 140 stud and you're up to 4R4 Sir, 1 1/2 times as 722 00:44:54,840 --> 00:44:58,320 insulation and insulation bat insulation in particular doesn't 723 00:44:58,320 --> 00:45:01,640 really cost that much more money to increase the thickness of it. 724 00:45:01,640 --> 00:45:04,000 Obviously there's a cost in, in the timber. 725 00:45:04,000 --> 00:45:07,760 So understanding what those trade-offs are, being aware of 726 00:45:07,960 --> 00:45:13,840 return on investment, being aware of, you know, what, what 727 00:45:13,840 --> 00:45:16,680 these, what these initiatives cost as their cost benefit 728 00:45:16,680 --> 00:45:21,320 exercise and the payback period is super important for, for 729 00:45:21,320 --> 00:45:23,520 clients to, to be able to consider these things and to, 730 00:45:23,640 --> 00:45:28,000 and to actually make true sustainable design more 731 00:45:28,000 --> 00:45:29,840 accessible to more and more people. 732 00:45:30,360 --> 00:45:35,880 Unfortunately, sustainability and indeed the climate crisis, 733 00:45:36,800 --> 00:45:40,200 like the UK is a very politicized thing here in 734 00:45:40,200 --> 00:45:42,600 Australia, right? Like it's almost like people 735 00:45:42,600 --> 00:45:45,560 feel the need to barrack for a football team. 736 00:45:45,560 --> 00:45:47,680 You know, I either believe in it or I don't. 737 00:45:48,280 --> 00:45:53,400 So when you present people with real world numbers and that 738 00:45:53,400 --> 00:45:55,920 bullshit goes, you know, like you, you, you're kind of, you're 739 00:45:55,920 --> 00:45:58,800 convinced, you know, as as a business study. 740 00:46:00,640 --> 00:46:04,920 I will say one other thing is, you know, there's a real, 741 00:46:07,600 --> 00:46:10,320 there's a real danger and people thinking that we ought to just 742 00:46:10,320 --> 00:46:14,640 demolish everything and build new as a way of getting there, 743 00:46:14,880 --> 00:46:19,000 you know, net zero. We believe in genuine progress 744 00:46:19,000 --> 00:46:25,040 over perfection. The peak scientific study here 745 00:46:25,040 --> 00:46:29,040 in Australia, the CSIRO did a study recently and what they 746 00:46:29,040 --> 00:46:32,800 found out was it in housing across Australia in particular, 747 00:46:33,160 --> 00:46:37,560 72% of that is what they called older existing stock, right? 748 00:46:37,560 --> 00:46:42,880 So we talked about the energy rating scheme just before 1 to 749 00:46:42,960 --> 00:46:45,000 10. Now code is 7. 750 00:46:45,000 --> 00:46:48,880 At the moment it was 6. Now it's 772% of housing in 751 00:46:48,880 --> 00:46:52,480 Australia achieves 2 stars or less, right? 752 00:46:52,720 --> 00:46:57,120 And so, and then the rest is between 5:00 and, and eight or 753 00:46:57,120 --> 00:46:59,680 whatever it is. So I guess you know, what's the 754 00:46:59,680 --> 00:47:01,440 solution? Should we just demo the whole 755 00:47:01,440 --> 00:47:03,960 lot and build again? Well, there's the cost of that. 756 00:47:04,200 --> 00:47:06,800 And we haven't even talked about embodied energy, right? 757 00:47:06,800 --> 00:47:08,400 How importance in modern energy to. 758 00:47:08,680 --> 00:47:12,800 So I think we believe in incremental improvement and, and 759 00:47:12,800 --> 00:47:16,640 also if you're going to build right, build once, I think you 760 00:47:16,640 --> 00:47:19,280 should build right. So I think personally, as an 761 00:47:19,280 --> 00:47:23,120 architect, thinking about using our skills and then our design 762 00:47:23,120 --> 00:47:26,840 thinking, as you mentioned earlier, to consider, you know, 763 00:47:26,840 --> 00:47:30,520 things like bigger picture, things like ageing in place, you 764 00:47:30,520 --> 00:47:33,920 know, designing something that would cater for multi 765 00:47:33,920 --> 00:47:37,480 generational living. I think it's just as important 766 00:47:37,480 --> 00:47:42,320 as detailing a an airtight envelope that and why I say that 767 00:47:42,960 --> 00:47:44,560 is. And your listeners will be 768 00:47:44,680 --> 00:47:48,080 familiar with this concept of, you know, Maslow's hierarchy of 769 00:47:48,080 --> 00:47:50,240 needs. To put it in a nutshell, if, if 770 00:47:50,240 --> 00:47:54,440 I, if I have a roof over my head and I have food in my belly, I'm 771 00:47:54,440 --> 00:47:58,840 much more likely to consider upgrading to triple glazed 772 00:47:58,840 --> 00:48:02,000 windows and extra insulation. You know, you've got to solve 773 00:48:02,000 --> 00:48:04,480 the shelter first before you, you do the rest. 774 00:48:04,480 --> 00:48:08,360 And in this sort of economic environment, you know, I think 775 00:48:08,360 --> 00:48:12,080 you must be evidence based and and passive house and really 776 00:48:12,080 --> 00:48:13,600 helps with that level of thinking. 777 00:48:13,760 --> 00:48:16,280 You you, you portray an incredibly compelling argument 778 00:48:16,280 --> 00:48:20,400 and I wonder how many I mean, is, do you find it's a lot of 779 00:48:20,400 --> 00:48:23,840 clients that are bringing that to you or is it always you kind 780 00:48:23,840 --> 00:48:27,800 of pushing and educating clients? 781 00:48:27,800 --> 00:48:31,200 You know, what is the market like in terms of knowledge of 782 00:48:31,200 --> 00:48:35,600 sustainability and and demand for, I suppose those types of 783 00:48:35,640 --> 00:48:41,080 buildings and architecture? I think it is some clients are 784 00:48:41,080 --> 00:48:45,680 very interested in that world. I had a client who came to us at 785 00:48:45,680 --> 00:48:49,760 a previous office who who mentioned just during the 786 00:48:49,760 --> 00:48:52,640 briefing process are do you, do you, have you heard of Passive 787 00:48:52,640 --> 00:48:54,120 House? As it, as it happened, I was 788 00:48:54,120 --> 00:49:00,480 doing my Passive House course. And for those of us who in your 789 00:49:00,480 --> 00:49:03,080 audience who have done the designers accredited course, 790 00:49:03,080 --> 00:49:05,920 it's a bit like going back to, you know, to school and, and 791 00:49:05,920 --> 00:49:07,360 being in a physics and mathematics class. 792 00:49:07,360 --> 00:49:11,720 There's lots of formulas and lots of conversion of units as 793 00:49:11,720 --> 00:49:14,480 well as concepts. So some clients are very, very 794 00:49:14,480 --> 00:49:18,400 across that that particular client even said to, you know, 795 00:49:18,480 --> 00:49:21,440 introduced us to some very high performance windows that are 796 00:49:21,440 --> 00:49:26,080 just emerging in the, you know, in, in really an Australian 797 00:49:26,080 --> 00:49:30,360 market that needs to really catch up to, to, to the likes of 798 00:49:30,360 --> 00:49:32,640 Europe. I think we're, we're just 799 00:49:32,640 --> 00:49:35,680 starting with triple glazing. It's like worse, you know, there 800 00:49:35,680 --> 00:49:39,240 are lots of single glazed houses, believe it or not, from 801 00:49:39,240 --> 00:49:41,800 here, still being built sometimes. 802 00:49:43,480 --> 00:49:45,040 Yeah. So you get clients who are 803 00:49:45,040 --> 00:49:48,840 really into that Reich who are very, very knowledgeable and 804 00:49:48,840 --> 00:49:50,680 interested. The vast majority of our 805 00:49:50,680 --> 00:49:55,720 clients, I think, rely on us to educate them in a respectful 806 00:49:55,720 --> 00:49:58,680 manner. I think it's super important to 807 00:49:58,800 --> 00:50:01,800 be able to communicate these things to a client and not come 808 00:50:01,800 --> 00:50:05,880 across as patronising and just kind of looking out for their 809 00:50:05,880 --> 00:50:12,120 interest as much as anything. And like I said, the the 810 00:50:12,120 --> 00:50:15,200 objective numbers and the figures do convince people. 811 00:50:15,640 --> 00:50:18,840 I think having having spoken to you for a while now, the feeling 812 00:50:18,840 --> 00:50:22,600 I'm getting is, is about that all round architect, you know, 813 00:50:22,600 --> 00:50:25,360 like, like we alluded to at the beginning, you know, the 814 00:50:25,360 --> 00:50:30,320 architect that has as much of a feeling for, you know, the test 815 00:50:30,320 --> 00:50:33,880 technical aspects and the numbers, but you know, also the, 816 00:50:33,880 --> 00:50:37,680 the bigger picture thinking and the, the, the artistic nature 817 00:50:37,680 --> 00:50:39,920 that's able to communicate their ideas. 818 00:50:40,440 --> 00:50:44,400 I wonder, have you ever kind of considered what people could 819 00:50:44,400 --> 00:50:47,840 take away from your career? Some of the, the sort of big 820 00:50:47,840 --> 00:50:51,360 lessons that you've learnt, you know, through your journey and, 821 00:50:51,360 --> 00:50:55,160 and something that you know, the listeners would, would, would 822 00:50:55,160 --> 00:50:58,720 love to kind of, you know, take from this conversation. 823 00:50:59,440 --> 00:51:02,400 I kind of have thought about this a fair bit and I can sort 824 00:51:02,400 --> 00:51:04,120 of boil it down into a couple of things. 825 00:51:04,120 --> 00:51:10,440 I suppose. Number one, I really think that 826 00:51:10,600 --> 00:51:15,960 my careers, you know, has been a bit of adaptation. 827 00:51:16,240 --> 00:51:20,280 You know, I mean, I have a goal, We all should have one. 828 00:51:20,280 --> 00:51:22,880 And it's one of the things that I sort of suggest people have is 829 00:51:22,880 --> 00:51:26,040 always to have a goal. You have a goal for the year or 830 00:51:26,040 --> 00:51:30,280 have a goal even when you walk into an office for that day or 831 00:51:30,280 --> 00:51:32,680 for that, for that time you're sitting at the desk or being 832 00:51:32,680 --> 00:51:36,400 outside. But also being able to. 833 00:51:36,400 --> 00:51:37,800 It's kind of a bit like design build, right? 834 00:51:37,800 --> 00:51:41,080 You kind of need to be a bit nimble and you have to fit life 835 00:51:41,080 --> 00:51:46,240 throws curve balls at you. But what personally, what really 836 00:51:46,240 --> 00:51:49,800 helps is to surround yourself with really passionate, really 837 00:51:49,800 --> 00:51:53,720 competent people, especially in the at work. 838 00:51:54,600 --> 00:52:00,920 And I guess like I, I think it's a real privilege to work with 839 00:52:00,920 --> 00:52:04,120 the people I work with. Got colleagues here at Fran and 840 00:52:04,120 --> 00:52:06,800 and William and I sort of, I love talking design with these 841 00:52:06,800 --> 00:52:09,360 guys. It's just also Ryan as well. 842 00:52:10,800 --> 00:52:14,400 He's a builder. He loves design and I, I think 843 00:52:14,400 --> 00:52:19,480 people who are who will sort of, you know, fill your cup with, 844 00:52:19,880 --> 00:52:26,120 with passion, with design interests, with, you know, 845 00:52:26,120 --> 00:52:29,680 things they want to do or things they've seen that they've loved. 846 00:52:29,680 --> 00:52:35,840 But I think really helps, you know, in the, you know, the sort 847 00:52:35,840 --> 00:52:42,600 of peaks and troughs of, of architecture, but also allowing, 848 00:52:43,640 --> 00:52:47,440 allowing people around, allowing room for people around you to, 849 00:52:47,720 --> 00:52:51,800 to be critical of ideas that you might put forward and not let 850 00:52:51,800 --> 00:52:55,920 your ego get in the way of it. And it's really hard because 851 00:52:55,920 --> 00:53:01,400 you're, you're sort of you, you do invest in, in ideas. 852 00:53:02,600 --> 00:53:08,880 Also, I'd say making space for quieter people in the room. 853 00:53:09,920 --> 00:53:12,880 Some people don't really sort of hype up and say something. 854 00:53:12,880 --> 00:53:15,600 I'm, I'm fairly, I'd say I'm fairly extroverted. 855 00:53:15,600 --> 00:53:20,960 I, I can hopefully communicate and, and articulate what I'm 856 00:53:20,960 --> 00:53:26,200 thinking well at the time and fairly quickly. 857 00:53:26,200 --> 00:53:28,840 But I think a lot of people sort of go away to think about things 858 00:53:28,840 --> 00:53:31,760 and, and come back and allowing that to happen. 859 00:53:32,920 --> 00:53:37,520 And I think probably one other thing I would say is just also 860 00:53:37,920 --> 00:53:44,000 listen to older architects. Sounds a bit weird but like they 861 00:53:44,000 --> 00:53:48,960 have a lot to say. I, my first job here in 862 00:53:48,960 --> 00:53:52,320 Melbourne, I worked for a company and they did high end 863 00:53:52,320 --> 00:53:56,600 homes. They interestingly they came 864 00:53:56,600 --> 00:53:58,880 from a design and build background and then they 865 00:53:58,880 --> 00:54:01,280 splintered off and became a traditional architect. 866 00:54:01,280 --> 00:54:04,880 So they're sort of the opposite as it happens. 867 00:54:04,880 --> 00:54:07,440 I, I really learnt a lot about their documentation, their 868 00:54:07,440 --> 00:54:09,120 documentation, It was incredible. 869 00:54:09,120 --> 00:54:12,360 It was the benchmark basically, and it's really aimed at 870 00:54:13,040 --> 00:54:16,360 efficiency on site and, and, and just communicating a design 871 00:54:16,360 --> 00:54:20,720 intent just enough to allow people to, you know, be flexible 872 00:54:20,720 --> 00:54:21,920 on site. So that was really good. 873 00:54:22,480 --> 00:54:28,520 Those old employers have become, you know, this was over 10 years 874 00:54:28,520 --> 00:54:34,440 ago, have become lifelong friends and mentors and, and, 875 00:54:34,440 --> 00:54:39,400 and one of them invites me to these dinners once a year, I 876 00:54:39,400 --> 00:54:44,280 should say, where, you know, how a bunch of boomer architects 877 00:54:44,280 --> 00:54:47,320 turn up to this, you know, cute little Italian restaurant. 878 00:54:47,320 --> 00:54:52,280 And they, and they just rant and they just talk about the, the 879 00:54:52,400 --> 00:54:58,480 just their gripes with the industry, with practice and that 880 00:54:58,480 --> 00:55:00,200 sort of thing. And I just, I just shut up and 881 00:55:00,200 --> 00:55:05,240 listen, you know, and, and I honestly, I have learnt so much 882 00:55:05,240 --> 00:55:07,800 from those sessions. Probably more than that. 883 00:55:07,800 --> 00:55:10,960 Sort of we talk about the five years of architecture in terms 884 00:55:10,960 --> 00:55:13,280 of practice, right? I learnt a lot from that. 885 00:55:13,600 --> 00:55:17,920 And yeah, I think just listen to older people listen critically, 886 00:55:17,920 --> 00:55:20,400 though. I mean, I think they're not 887 00:55:20,400 --> 00:55:22,120 always right. Wisdom, You know, Asia does not 888 00:55:22,120 --> 00:55:25,320 always equate wisdom. Just with that in mind, I, I 889 00:55:25,360 --> 00:55:28,800 mean, I, I, I'm very passionate about mentoring and architecture 890 00:55:28,800 --> 00:55:30,880 and, and talk about it sort of widely. 891 00:55:32,560 --> 00:55:36,880 Can you, I mean, what's your experience of, of, of mentoring 892 00:55:36,880 --> 00:55:40,760 and having been mentored and, you know, your reflection on the 893 00:55:40,760 --> 00:55:44,400 importance of that within a career that is so long. 894 00:55:44,400 --> 00:55:47,040 And as we alluded to at the beginning, you know, university 895 00:55:47,040 --> 00:55:52,080 may not prepare you for it. And and, you know, it's always 896 00:55:52,080 --> 00:55:55,360 learning, I suppose. Yeah. 897 00:55:55,360 --> 00:56:01,080 I mean, I think I, I don't think I'd be here at this level of in 898 00:56:01,080 --> 00:56:05,760 my career without having mentors and mentors can be in the 899 00:56:05,760 --> 00:56:07,800 industry and outside the industry. 900 00:56:08,720 --> 00:56:14,120 And that, that and also just sort of being mindful of also 901 00:56:14,520 --> 00:56:18,120 passing down the knowledge to younger people as well. 902 00:56:19,040 --> 00:56:22,760 And there's a bit of a balance to strike in terms of mentorship 903 00:56:22,840 --> 00:56:27,800 in that you, you don't want people who are you are mentoring 904 00:56:27,800 --> 00:56:29,880 to kind of think exactly like you. 905 00:56:29,880 --> 00:56:33,520 You want to give them the tools, not so much to that they want to 906 00:56:33,520 --> 00:56:37,240 be a mean process of, of yourself, like a carbon copy. 907 00:56:37,480 --> 00:56:39,760 I mean, it's very seductive to do that because then no one, 908 00:56:39,760 --> 00:56:41,760 everyone would agree with you and life would be good. 909 00:56:41,760 --> 00:56:47,200 But I think it's just passed down, passing down the sort of 910 00:56:47,200 --> 00:56:50,080 technical knowledge and the, and the way of thinking and just 911 00:56:50,080 --> 00:56:55,840 allowing those people to, to carry out their work and, and 912 00:56:55,840 --> 00:57:00,480 come up with ideas of their own and challenging you as well. 913 00:57:00,480 --> 00:57:05,840 So with regards to my, my mentors, they, they've often 914 00:57:05,840 --> 00:57:10,320 been past employers. And what I've found 915 00:57:10,320 --> 00:57:14,120 interestingly, and your listeners probably could relate 916 00:57:14,120 --> 00:57:18,840 to this, is that the employer employee relationship is very 917 00:57:18,840 --> 00:57:21,000 interesting. So there's a sort of a dynamic 918 00:57:21,000 --> 00:57:26,680 there when you leave a, an office. 919 00:57:26,680 --> 00:57:30,440 And, and I would suggest, I would highly recommend that, you 920 00:57:30,440 --> 00:57:33,560 know, I've tried to do some my career, I always leave, I always 921 00:57:33,560 --> 00:57:35,720 try to leave with a really good handshake. 922 00:57:36,680 --> 00:57:41,560 And you know, it's, you know, at first when you do depart, it 923 00:57:41,560 --> 00:57:44,120 could be a bit awkward because obviously, you know, the news, 924 00:57:44,560 --> 00:57:46,520 you know, you're probably relying news or the other way 925 00:57:46,520 --> 00:57:49,560 around that they, they are, you know, you're, you're being, you 926 00:57:49,560 --> 00:57:51,000 know, being retrenched or whatever. 927 00:57:51,200 --> 00:57:54,320 It at first it could be a bit confronting and that's okay. 928 00:57:54,320 --> 00:57:58,760 That's your initial feeling. But it's really, I think the 929 00:57:58,760 --> 00:58:04,000 industry is a really small, you know, can be very small and it's 930 00:58:04,000 --> 00:58:05,640 really important to foster those relationships. 931 00:58:05,640 --> 00:58:09,680 And quite often those past, in my experience, past employers 932 00:58:09,680 --> 00:58:13,720 have become friends and sort of we, I text them, I, I call them, 933 00:58:13,720 --> 00:58:16,840 I ask them questions. They then ask me questions 934 00:58:16,840 --> 00:58:23,320 randomly about things, you know, do you know, a good engineer, a 935 00:58:23,320 --> 00:58:26,560 civil engineer or do you, you know, any good builders in that 936 00:58:26,560 --> 00:58:30,680 area, that sort of thing. So or, or I've got a client and 937 00:58:30,680 --> 00:58:34,480 this, this is sort of come up, you know, how, how have you 938 00:58:34,480 --> 00:58:37,840 dealt with this in the past? I think it's, it's really 939 00:58:37,840 --> 00:58:40,920 important to have mentors. I don't think, I don't know how 940 00:58:40,920 --> 00:58:43,280 you could be a competent architect, a good architect 941 00:58:43,280 --> 00:58:46,320 without having mentors personally and also being 942 00:58:46,320 --> 00:58:50,320 mentored yourself. Yeah, mentoring others as well 943 00:58:50,400 --> 00:58:52,960 and and surrounding themselves with a good team, yeah. 944 00:58:53,160 --> 00:58:58,720 One question I like to leave conversations on is a sort of a 945 00:59:00,280 --> 00:59:03,040 sort of summary piece and a, and a, and a look back. 946 00:59:03,360 --> 00:59:10,440 So I wonder, you know, you and your family as immigrants into 947 00:59:10,440 --> 00:59:14,680 New Zealand from Iraq and, and you know, the, the, the life 948 00:59:14,680 --> 00:59:20,280 that you've LED in, in looking back on that as your career 949 00:59:20,280 --> 00:59:23,360 turned out, how you could have imagined. 950 00:59:23,440 --> 00:59:28,560 And I suppose feeding back to the sort of original question 951 00:59:28,560 --> 00:59:30,920 about, you know, why architecture. 952 00:59:32,520 --> 00:59:38,200 So as you know, where, where do you see the value that you've 953 00:59:38,200 --> 00:59:42,040 brought in your career personally and you know, to to 954 00:59:42,040 --> 00:59:45,320 the outside world? And similarly, where do you see 955 00:59:45,320 --> 00:59:49,200 yourself going in the future? I I sort of go back and, and, 956 00:59:49,280 --> 00:59:54,120 and reiterate my point that we definitely are a product of our 957 00:59:54,120 --> 00:59:57,600 environment, but we have to be. I mean, people talk about the 958 00:59:57,600 --> 01:00:00,800 blank slate, you know, a human beings complete blank slate. 959 01:00:00,800 --> 01:00:06,640 Do you, you know, are you the person that you are because of 960 01:00:06,640 --> 01:00:10,360 where you live and, and, and how you live and, and what's I I 961 01:00:10,360 --> 01:00:15,440 think I definitely think so. I guess in terms of how that's 962 01:00:15,440 --> 01:00:21,160 impacted my career, it's. It's definitely made me want to 963 01:00:21,160 --> 01:00:24,560 be make architecture a lot more accessible to a lot more people. 964 01:00:25,400 --> 01:00:32,200 I think, I mean, the common criticism with architects is it 965 01:00:32,200 --> 01:00:38,560 can be fairly elitist as a, as a profession, both in terms of 966 01:00:38,560 --> 01:00:42,360 the, the, the, the sort of parts of society, it's, you know, the 967 01:00:42,360 --> 01:00:44,200 industry services and what have you. 968 01:00:44,200 --> 01:00:49,160 So I, I think, I think being able to make architecture 969 01:00:49,160 --> 01:00:51,880 available to a lot more people is kind of what drives me. 970 01:00:51,880 --> 01:00:55,280 And it's probably from my upbringing and, and my 971 01:00:55,280 --> 01:00:56,880 experiences in the outer suburbs. 972 01:00:57,920 --> 01:01:02,040 So I guess that's sort of fed into, you know, what we do here, 973 01:01:02,040 --> 01:01:09,000 design, design and build, but also being able to being able to 974 01:01:10,040 --> 01:01:17,480 offer that ability to to synthesize fairly sophisticated 975 01:01:17,480 --> 01:01:23,640 artificial responses with great cross control and buildability 976 01:01:23,880 --> 01:01:28,200 know how at the front end to, you know, large value project as 977 01:01:28,200 --> 01:01:30,400 well. So that that's that's really 978 01:01:30,400 --> 01:01:32,800 important. I think in terms of going 979 01:01:32,840 --> 01:01:34,440 forward, where do we see ourselves? 980 01:01:34,440 --> 01:01:37,720 It's just probably getting that balance right between these 981 01:01:38,040 --> 01:01:41,640 probably smaller projects, smaller budgets versus the, the 982 01:01:41,840 --> 01:01:44,560 sort of a higher value projects as well. 983 01:01:44,920 --> 01:01:48,360 And then kind of having some consistency along that in terms 984 01:01:48,360 --> 01:01:50,280 of our processes and our services. 985 01:01:50,760 --> 01:01:55,280 And also I'd say one of the really big things we're excited 986 01:01:55,280 --> 01:01:58,760 about and you'll probably hear this a lot from architects, but 987 01:01:58,760 --> 01:02:01,840 it's, it's very topical is prefabrication. 988 01:02:01,840 --> 01:02:04,560 It's something that we're we're really keen and interested and I 989 01:02:04,560 --> 01:02:10,600 think it's, it's, it's, it's a very compatible endeavour, 990 01:02:11,200 --> 01:02:15,440 especially for a design LED design and build organization. 991 01:02:16,760 --> 01:02:21,960 You know, you're hearing about most industries since the 992 01:02:21,960 --> 01:02:27,120 industrial revolution, you know, have increased productivity over 993 01:02:27,120 --> 01:02:30,400 time, especially at the advent of, you know, game changing 994 01:02:30,400 --> 01:02:34,920 technological advances, with the exception of construction, In 995 01:02:35,040 --> 01:02:38,120 fact, like in the last decade or so that we're going down, we're 996 01:02:38,120 --> 01:02:39,720 going backwards. And this is not the subject of 997 01:02:39,720 --> 01:02:41,280 this podcast. As to why that is, there are 998 01:02:41,280 --> 01:02:47,360 many reasons, but I think we, you know, like the UK, here in 999 01:02:47,360 --> 01:02:49,200 Australia, we have a housing crisis. 1000 01:02:49,200 --> 01:02:51,920 Like that's, you know, it's a, it's a very topical thing. 1001 01:02:52,920 --> 01:02:56,040 Land is finite. We're not building houses, 1002 01:02:56,240 --> 01:02:58,840 especially houses as fast as we need to. 1003 01:02:59,600 --> 01:03:05,360 And we've got a declining a, an industry with declining 1004 01:03:05,480 --> 01:03:08,040 productivity. And I guess one of the things 1005 01:03:08,040 --> 01:03:10,720 that to address that is prefabrication. 1006 01:03:11,560 --> 01:03:17,560 And we know that that increases efficiency and modern, what's 1007 01:03:17,560 --> 01:03:20,200 called modern methods of construction is a way to address 1008 01:03:20,200 --> 01:03:24,240 that. So I think to, to wrap it up, 1009 01:03:24,600 --> 01:03:29,760 it's basically trying to make architecture more accessible to 1010 01:03:29,800 --> 01:03:33,800 a raft of clientele and people probably who wouldn't have 1011 01:03:33,800 --> 01:03:35,840 thought to use an architect as well. 1012 01:03:35,880 --> 01:03:39,960 That's, that's kind of, that's a really sort of a big, big part 1013 01:03:39,960 --> 01:03:47,400 of where we're trying to to appeal to, but also innovating 1014 01:03:47,400 --> 01:03:53,920 constantly and being open to new ways of doing things and being a 1015 01:03:53,920 --> 01:03:59,320 younger organization, we're able to do that probably better than 1016 01:03:59,320 --> 01:04:02,720 more established practices or builders. 1017 01:04:02,920 --> 01:04:06,480 Kateva, absolutely fascinating conversation, and I think you've 1018 01:04:06,480 --> 01:04:10,280 shared, you know, lots of insights that you know will have 1019 01:04:10,880 --> 01:04:13,280 incredible value for people listening. 1020 01:04:14,120 --> 01:04:15,360 Thank you so much for joining me. 1021 01:04:16,440 --> 01:04:17,160 Thank you for having me.