1 00:00:01,640 --> 00:00:05,640 Welcome, dear listeners, to another fascinating episode of 2 00:00:05,640 --> 00:00:09,120 the London History Podcast, where we dive into the vibrant 3 00:00:09,120 --> 00:00:11,440 and diverse past of this great city. 4 00:00:12,040 --> 00:00:16,360 I am your host, Hazel Baker, a qualified London tour guide and 5 00:00:16,360 --> 00:00:19,400 founder of London guidedwalks.co.uk. 6 00:00:20,080 --> 00:00:23,040 Whether you're a born and bred Londoner or a curious listener, 7 00:00:23,280 --> 00:00:27,160 join us on a journey through time as we explore the city 8 00:00:27,160 --> 00:00:30,080 together. Each episode is supported by 9 00:00:30,080 --> 00:00:33,800 show notes, transcripts, photos and further reading, all to be 10 00:00:33,800 --> 00:00:38,000 found on our website. If you enjoy what we do, then 11 00:00:38,000 --> 00:00:41,360 you'll love our guided walks and private tours that we offer 12 00:00:41,360 --> 00:00:43,680 throughout the year. All bookable. 13 00:00:43,800 --> 00:00:49,560 Online@londonguidedwalks.co.uk Subscribe now to never miss an 14 00:00:49,560 --> 00:00:53,200 episode and if you enjoy the show, please leave us a review 15 00:00:53,200 --> 00:00:57,360 and rating to help spread the word to other history lovers. 16 00:01:01,000 --> 00:01:04,519 In today's episode, we're journeying back to the turn of 17 00:01:04,519 --> 00:01:08,760 the 19th century, to a time when the streets of London and beyond 18 00:01:08,760 --> 00:01:12,080 were stages for one of the most significant campaigns in the 19 00:01:12,080 --> 00:01:16,360 fight for women's rights, the battle for the right to vote. 20 00:01:17,560 --> 00:01:20,840 The quest for suffrage in Britain saw the emergence of two 21 00:01:20,840 --> 00:01:24,360 distinct yet interconnective movements, each leaving an 22 00:01:24,360 --> 00:01:27,920 indelible mark on the fabric of society and the course of 23 00:01:27,920 --> 00:01:30,800 history. On one side we had the 24 00:01:30,800 --> 00:01:34,520 Suffragists, a group that championed peaceful, lawful 25 00:01:34,520 --> 00:01:38,120 tactics to win the vote. These women and men, united 26 00:01:38,120 --> 00:01:41,240 under the banner of the National Union of Women's Suffrage 27 00:01:41,240 --> 00:01:47,360 Societies, N UW S s believed in patience, persistence and 28 00:01:47,360 --> 00:01:52,000 persuasion. They lobbied, they educated, and 29 00:01:52,000 --> 00:01:56,480 they organised, all with the steadfast belief that reasoned 30 00:01:56,480 --> 00:02:00,840 argument and moral high ground would win them the rights they 31 00:02:00,840 --> 00:02:04,560 sought. Contrastingly, the stage was 32 00:02:04,560 --> 00:02:08,639 shared by a more militant faction, the Suffragettes of the 33 00:02:08,639 --> 00:02:13,520 Women's Social and Political Union, WSPU. 34 00:02:14,560 --> 00:02:18,880 Unwilling to wait in the shadows of gradual progress, these women 35 00:02:18,880 --> 00:02:23,000 took the struggle to the streets with a fervour and passion that 36 00:02:23,000 --> 00:02:28,280 could not be ignored. Their motto, deeds not words, 37 00:02:28,520 --> 00:02:32,680 saw them employ tactics that were bold, sometimes bordering 38 00:02:32,680 --> 00:02:35,600 on the radical. From changing themselves to 39 00:02:35,600 --> 00:02:38,480 railings to enduring imprisonment and hunger strikes, 40 00:02:38,920 --> 00:02:43,040 their actions sparked controversy, conversation, and 41 00:02:43,200 --> 00:02:47,560 ultimately, change. In this episode, we're not just 42 00:02:47,560 --> 00:02:50,120 recounting a tale of historical activism. 43 00:02:50,360 --> 00:02:53,800 We're exploring the nuanced dynamics between these two 44 00:02:53,800 --> 00:02:56,640 movements. How did their strategies differ? 45 00:02:56,760 --> 00:03:00,520 What did it mean for the women's suffrage campaign as a whole? 46 00:03:00,920 --> 00:03:03,800 What can the divergent paths of the suffragists and the 47 00:03:03,800 --> 00:03:07,760 suffragettes teach us about the broader spectrum of social and 48 00:03:07,760 --> 00:03:11,000 political activism? And importantly, how do their 49 00:03:11,000 --> 00:03:14,840 legacies live on in the contemporary fight for equality 50 00:03:14,840 --> 00:03:18,480 and rights? Joining me today is Kirsty 51 00:03:18,480 --> 00:03:22,640 Shedden, a City of Westminster and Borough of Camden tour guide 52 00:03:22,840 --> 00:03:26,200 who offers a very interesting suffragettes in Westminster. 53 00:03:26,200 --> 00:03:29,520 Walking tall together. We'll unravel the complex 54 00:03:29,520 --> 00:03:33,920 tapestry of the suffragists and suffragettes, exploring not just 55 00:03:33,920 --> 00:03:38,240 their differences but also their shared vision, a world where 56 00:03:38,240 --> 00:03:42,120 women could stand as equals in the eyes of the law. 57 00:03:43,120 --> 00:03:46,440 So whether you're a history aficionado, an activist at 58 00:03:46,440 --> 00:03:50,040 heart, or simply curious about the forces that have shaped our 59 00:03:50,040 --> 00:03:55,640 society, this episode promises to enlighten, inspire, and 60 00:03:55,640 --> 00:03:59,080 provoke thought. Stay with us as we dive into the 61 00:03:59,080 --> 00:04:02,640 heart of the battle for the ballot, a story of resilience, 62 00:04:02,840 --> 00:04:06,200 courage, and the enduring quest for justice. 63 00:04:07,440 --> 00:04:11,640 Hello, Kirsty. Could you maybe start by giving 64 00:04:11,640 --> 00:04:15,000 our listeners an overview of the differences between the 65 00:04:15,000 --> 00:04:18,079 suffragists and the suffragettes? 66 00:04:19,120 --> 00:04:23,520 OK, so the basic difference between the two was that the 67 00:04:23,520 --> 00:04:27,960 suffragists had peaceful methods for their campaign to get the 68 00:04:27,960 --> 00:04:31,040 votes for women. So in order to get their message 69 00:04:31,040 --> 00:04:34,840 across, they would do things like hold lectures where there 70 00:04:34,840 --> 00:04:39,960 would be speakers, They produced pamphlets, they sent articles to 71 00:04:40,080 --> 00:04:42,080 various magazines. In fact, they had their own 72 00:04:42,080 --> 00:04:45,560 magazine as well. Common Cause, whereas the 73 00:04:45,560 --> 00:04:50,240 suffragettes were more militant and became increasingly militant 74 00:04:50,520 --> 00:04:52,480 during the period of their existence. 75 00:04:53,080 --> 00:04:58,480 They did ordinary things like marches and they also had their 76 00:04:58,480 --> 00:05:00,640 own magazine as well as suffragette. 77 00:05:01,760 --> 00:05:05,840 Well, we started life as votes for women and that they also are 78 00:05:05,840 --> 00:05:09,440 gravitated to more direct action, I think we'd call it, or 79 00:05:09,440 --> 00:05:12,400 millicency. Some people would have said that 80 00:05:12,400 --> 00:05:16,000 they were almost terrorists by the time they'd finished, but 81 00:05:16,000 --> 00:05:19,520 this was in order to get publicity, and greater 82 00:05:19,520 --> 00:05:24,400 publicity, they felt, than the suffragists were getting for the 83 00:05:24,400 --> 00:05:29,800 cause for votes for women. So tell us a little bit more 84 00:05:29,800 --> 00:05:33,360 than about the suffragist movement and the beginning of 85 00:05:33,360 --> 00:05:36,480 Votes for Women campaign before the creation of the the 86 00:05:36,480 --> 00:05:40,080 Suffragettes. The suffragettes began life in 87 00:05:40,080 --> 00:05:44,680 1903, but they owed a huge debt, of course, to the suffragists 88 00:05:44,680 --> 00:05:47,800 who had been going since the 1860s. 89 00:05:48,280 --> 00:05:52,360 You could say, possibly even before that, writers such as 90 00:05:52,360 --> 00:05:57,400 Mary Wollstonecraft were talking about women being equal to men 91 00:05:57,600 --> 00:06:01,000 and how they should have better rights and better access to 92 00:06:01,000 --> 00:06:03,280 education. She in fact was one of the 93 00:06:03,280 --> 00:06:06,520 people that said if you don't educate people, how can they 94 00:06:07,040 --> 00:06:10,720 contribute in the way that you're suggesting in parliament 95 00:06:10,720 --> 00:06:15,200 and running the country. But it was really in the 1860s, 96 00:06:15,200 --> 00:06:19,360 so there had been in 1832 an extension of the franchise for 97 00:06:19,360 --> 00:06:24,280 men due to protests. And in 1860 this whole debate 98 00:06:24,280 --> 00:06:29,360 was hotting up still further and many working class people, many 99 00:06:29,360 --> 00:06:32,600 middle class people were agitating for the vote. 100 00:06:32,880 --> 00:06:37,200 The parliament deemed it necessary to introduce further 101 00:06:37,200 --> 00:06:40,320 reform. So this was seen as a chance by 102 00:06:40,320 --> 00:06:44,560 people who did believe in votes for women to begin the process, 103 00:06:44,560 --> 00:06:47,680 if you like, of adding women to the franchise. 104 00:06:48,960 --> 00:06:53,120 A group had started in London called the Kensing Society of 105 00:06:53,120 --> 00:06:57,600 Middle Class Women who had been educated and who understood 106 00:06:57,600 --> 00:07:00,640 about affairs of the country and wanted to be involved. 107 00:07:01,400 --> 00:07:03,960 And but they were sort of private group. 108 00:07:03,960 --> 00:07:07,240 They they had chats and talks over things. 109 00:07:07,640 --> 00:07:12,800 But in 1867 they had the opportunity to have a an 110 00:07:13,200 --> 00:07:18,600 amendment to the ACT, the 1867 Act that was going to go through 111 00:07:18,600 --> 00:07:22,120 Parliament. And this was because John Stuart 112 00:07:22,120 --> 00:07:24,520 Mill believed in the equality for women. 113 00:07:24,520 --> 00:07:27,840 He was a philosopher and economist, and also happily an 114 00:07:27,840 --> 00:07:33,520 MP for Westminster, and he agreed to propose an amendment 115 00:07:33,760 --> 00:07:37,720 if a petition was signed. So petition was got ready and it 116 00:07:37,720 --> 00:07:41,120 was presented to Parliament. And then they had. 117 00:07:41,480 --> 00:07:43,600 Then John Stuart Mill introduced the amendment. 118 00:07:43,840 --> 00:07:49,760 It failed by 196 to 73 votes, although John Stuart Mill and 119 00:07:49,800 --> 00:07:53,200 others such as Henry Fawcett, who were supporters of the 120 00:07:53,200 --> 00:07:56,480 amendment, were quite pleased that they felt this was actually 121 00:07:56,480 --> 00:08:00,600 a good starting point, even if they couldn't get it through at 122 00:08:00,600 --> 00:08:04,680 this particular point in time. And it was then that a society 123 00:08:04,680 --> 00:08:08,920 started to build up and become more formal to press for the 124 00:08:08,920 --> 00:08:12,160 vote. So it was the London Society 125 00:08:12,200 --> 00:08:17,120 that grew out of the Kensington Society, and they had committee 126 00:08:17,120 --> 00:08:19,080 members. The secretary was a woman called 127 00:08:19,080 --> 00:08:23,280 Emily Davis. She banning Girton College, 128 00:08:23,280 --> 00:08:26,880 Cambridge so that women could be educated for degrees. 129 00:08:27,600 --> 00:08:29,760 Of course they couldn't actually take them at Cambridge and 130 00:08:29,760 --> 00:08:31,680 awarded them. They could take the exams, they 131 00:08:31,680 --> 00:08:34,120 could take the courses, but they couldn't say they had a degree 132 00:08:34,360 --> 00:08:38,280 until 1948. So that does show you the reason 133 00:08:38,280 --> 00:08:41,840 for the slow process. So even by the beginning of the 134 00:08:41,840 --> 00:08:47,000 20th century, things were very slow moving and from that time 135 00:08:47,000 --> 00:08:50,320 onwards women started to speak at these meetings. 136 00:08:50,320 --> 00:08:54,200 Melissa Fawcett, who was to lead the suffragist movement later 137 00:08:54,200 --> 00:08:59,480 on, she was a committee member and she was only 19 and she gave 138 00:08:59,480 --> 00:09:01,760 talks. Her husband, she married Henry 139 00:09:01,760 --> 00:09:06,200 Fawcett, that other member of Parliament I mentioned, and she 140 00:09:06,200 --> 00:09:10,920 began campaigning, touring the country, speaking at lectures. 141 00:09:10,920 --> 00:09:13,480 And so did other women. So it became a more public thing 142 00:09:13,760 --> 00:09:17,360 and more societies around the country grew up. 143 00:09:19,720 --> 00:09:22,840 You mentioned the other earlier groups as well as the the London 144 00:09:22,840 --> 00:09:24,720 Society. Can you tell us a little bit 145 00:09:24,720 --> 00:09:29,200 more about those? Yes, another place that was very 146 00:09:29,200 --> 00:09:34,680 significant at this early time was Manchester, which was also 147 00:09:34,840 --> 00:09:38,520 the founding city. In fact for the WSPU, the 148 00:09:38,520 --> 00:09:43,040 suffragettes in 19 O3. They founded the Manchester 149 00:09:43,040 --> 00:09:47,240 National Society for Women's Suffrage in 1867 in the wake of 150 00:09:47,240 --> 00:09:53,080 that Act of Parliament, and they met in the Free Trade Hall in 151 00:09:53,080 --> 00:09:57,880 April 1868 and started speaking out again publicly. 152 00:09:58,440 --> 00:10:01,160 Manchester was, incidentally, also the place where Lily 153 00:10:01,160 --> 00:10:05,640 Maxwell, a shopkeeper, became the first known woman to vote in 154 00:10:05,640 --> 00:10:10,760 a parliamentary election because she'd been mistakenly included 155 00:10:10,760 --> 00:10:15,400 in the register electors following the 1867 Reform Act. 156 00:10:15,720 --> 00:10:19,840 And of course, that was because she owned a shop and ran it in 157 00:10:19,840 --> 00:10:22,000 her own right. There were other societies, 158 00:10:22,000 --> 00:10:26,320 well, in places like Edinburgh and Birmingham, so it was quite 159 00:10:26,320 --> 00:10:29,960 extensive. The Manchester Society had 160 00:10:29,960 --> 00:10:33,120 members on the committee, such as Richard Pankhurst, who 161 00:10:33,120 --> 00:10:36,640 married Emmeline Pankhurst, the leader who became the leader of 162 00:10:36,640 --> 00:10:40,880 the suffragettes, Lydia Becker, also very well known in women's 163 00:10:40,880 --> 00:10:43,840 rights. She was the secretary and they 164 00:10:43,840 --> 00:10:48,000 wanted, at this particular point in time, votes for women on the 165 00:10:48,000 --> 00:10:52,280 same conditions as all might be granted to men. 166 00:10:52,840 --> 00:10:57,320 And at 11 years old, Emily in Pankhurst heard Lydia Becker 167 00:10:57,320 --> 00:10:59,520 speak. So that's why I say the 168 00:10:59,520 --> 00:11:05,400 suffragettes had a debt, if you like, to the past suffragists 169 00:11:05,520 --> 00:11:10,080 both in London and Manchester. Why was the National Union of 170 00:11:10,080 --> 00:11:12,800 Women's Suffrage Societies? It's amountful, isn't it? 171 00:11:12,920 --> 00:11:17,240 The N, UW, s s. Why was that created? 172 00:11:18,560 --> 00:11:21,840 I think more and more groups were being set up all the way 173 00:11:21,840 --> 00:11:27,240 around the country based on wanting women's suffrage, but in 174 00:11:27,240 --> 00:11:33,320 1884 there was the 3rd Reform Act that was passed and once 175 00:11:33,320 --> 00:11:36,000 again women were not included in the voters. 176 00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:40,480 So this extended the franchise to many working class men and 177 00:11:40,520 --> 00:11:43,880 others. But yet again there was no talk 178 00:11:43,960 --> 00:11:46,800 of adding women to the franchise. 179 00:11:47,320 --> 00:11:52,240 And so this again spurred on more interest in the movement. 180 00:11:52,840 --> 00:11:57,400 And so there was, there were so many sort of disparate groups 181 00:11:57,560 --> 00:12:01,240 that it was decided that you were much more likely to get 182 00:12:01,240 --> 00:12:04,320 what you wanted if you had a national movement that was 183 00:12:04,320 --> 00:12:06,840 coordinated. And then you could share 184 00:12:06,840 --> 00:12:09,920 resources, share ideas and all of that kind of thing. 185 00:12:10,400 --> 00:12:18,600 And so the Nuwss was created in 1897, and in 1907, Millicent 186 00:12:18,600 --> 00:12:21,440 Fawcett became the leader. OK. 187 00:12:21,600 --> 00:12:23,760 I mean, it wasn't all plain sailing. 188 00:12:23,760 --> 00:12:28,480 Because by this time there were doubts in some people's minds 189 00:12:28,480 --> 00:12:31,800 about whether or not a parliament would ever give women 190 00:12:31,800 --> 00:12:34,920 the vote on the basis of men, and whether or not they should 191 00:12:34,920 --> 00:12:38,960 campaign for a sort of less success in the hope that could 192 00:12:38,960 --> 00:12:42,160 then be built on. And other people who by this 193 00:12:42,160 --> 00:12:44,960 time by the end of the 19th century were really focused on 194 00:12:45,200 --> 00:12:50,280 universal suffrage, so all men and all women gaining the boat, 195 00:12:50,520 --> 00:12:53,880 and so women's suffrage being part of that idea. 196 00:12:56,200 --> 00:12:59,640 And what about the suffragettes of the Women's Social and 197 00:12:59,640 --> 00:13:06,320 Political union, the WSPU? OK, so Emmeline Pankhurst and 198 00:13:06,320 --> 00:13:09,680 her husband, Richard Pankhurst had spent some time down in 199 00:13:09,680 --> 00:13:12,680 London. Doctor Pankhurst was a key 200 00:13:12,680 --> 00:13:15,760 member of the Liberal Party. Or they never actually became an 201 00:13:15,760 --> 00:13:18,960 MP himself. And he was very concerned with 202 00:13:19,000 --> 00:13:23,120 women's rights and in fact other issues that needed reforming. 203 00:13:23,880 --> 00:13:26,520 And they were down in London. But when they couldn't afford to 204 00:13:26,520 --> 00:13:29,320 be down in London, so they came back to Manchester, which as I 205 00:13:29,320 --> 00:13:33,480 said, was a sort of real centre for campaigning for women's 206 00:13:33,480 --> 00:13:36,400 suffrage. And it was also a big area that 207 00:13:36,400 --> 00:13:41,880 where people were trying to have a unionism, poor, that kind of 208 00:13:41,880 --> 00:13:44,560 thing there. And Emmeline Pankhurst really 209 00:13:44,560 --> 00:13:49,240 got involved in that. Richard got very upset with the 210 00:13:49,240 --> 00:13:51,480 Liberal Party. He believed in the end that they 211 00:13:51,480 --> 00:13:54,760 wouldn't do anything, so he joined the newly formed 212 00:13:54,760 --> 00:13:58,240 Independent Labour Party and Emmeline followed suit. 213 00:13:58,240 --> 00:14:02,960 But she got very disillusioned with this whole idea that we 214 00:14:02,960 --> 00:14:07,760 want the men to get the vote 1st and we don't want women being 215 00:14:07,760 --> 00:14:11,360 involved in this act because it will slow things down for us. 216 00:14:11,680 --> 00:14:14,600 The Labour Party, although many members were, supported women's 217 00:14:14,600 --> 00:14:18,080 suffrage, others thought that the men should get the vote 218 00:14:18,080 --> 00:14:20,440 first. So Emmeline was quite 219 00:14:20,440 --> 00:14:23,000 disillusioned with this. And she and her daughter 220 00:14:23,000 --> 00:14:27,280 Christopher back on the suffragist movement and decided, 221 00:14:27,280 --> 00:14:31,400 you know, this had been going on for a really long time and women 222 00:14:31,400 --> 00:14:35,440 still didn't have the vote. So they decided that what they 223 00:14:35,440 --> 00:14:39,960 needed was publicity. They needed to get noticed and 224 00:14:39,960 --> 00:14:44,480 so they decided that there's christabel said to go out and 225 00:14:44,480 --> 00:14:46,760 get it, to get the vote for women. 226 00:14:46,760 --> 00:14:51,640 And their motto became deeds not words and their first deed. 227 00:14:51,640 --> 00:14:56,320 One of their first deeds was in 19 O 5, when Christabel and 228 00:14:56,320 --> 00:15:01,040 Annie Kenny went to the Manchester Trade Hall and 229 00:15:01,080 --> 00:15:03,320 disrupted a Liberal Party meeting. 230 00:15:03,760 --> 00:15:06,920 The election had been called and so candidates all over the 231 00:15:06,920 --> 00:15:11,000 country were going to speak and they shouted out are you going 232 00:15:11,000 --> 00:15:13,360 to introduce votes for women, etcetera? 233 00:15:13,920 --> 00:15:19,680 And then they were shown out and were taken out of the hall and 234 00:15:19,680 --> 00:15:24,680 Christabel spat at the policeman, thus getting arrested 235 00:15:25,080 --> 00:15:28,480 and went to prison having refused to pay the fine. 236 00:15:28,880 --> 00:15:33,920 So that's got into the newspapers and this was their 237 00:15:33,920 --> 00:15:37,840 their method, the start of their methods to get noticed and get 238 00:15:37,840 --> 00:15:42,720 in the papers. To our listeners, you might have 239 00:15:42,720 --> 00:15:45,880 heard the name Annie Kenny there, and it's worth mentioning 240 00:15:45,880 --> 00:15:51,680 that Kirsty has also done an earlier episode #121, so that's 241 00:15:51,680 --> 00:15:54,240 121. And in there you can hear about 242 00:15:54,240 --> 00:15:58,480 the capsulating life of Annie Kenny, who was a working class 243 00:15:58,480 --> 00:16:02,560 woman who ascended to the forefront of the suffragette 244 00:16:02,560 --> 00:16:04,080 movement. But you can have a listen to 245 00:16:04,080 --> 00:16:05,960 that. I'll put the link in the show 246 00:16:05,960 --> 00:16:09,120 notes. So, Kirsty, can you maybe 247 00:16:09,120 --> 00:16:13,920 describe a typical event for each of these separate groups? 248 00:16:14,160 --> 00:16:15,920 How did they? What were the differences 249 00:16:15,920 --> 00:16:19,080 between the suffragists and the suffragette events? 250 00:16:20,160 --> 00:16:24,080 OK, let's take 1908. We're a few years into the 251 00:16:24,080 --> 00:16:29,160 suffragettes campaign and the suffragists are gaining more and 252 00:16:29,160 --> 00:16:33,040 more support. In 19 O 8, Asquith became Prime 253 00:16:33,040 --> 00:16:37,400 Minister and one of the things he wanted, so he claimed was 254 00:16:37,400 --> 00:16:42,000 that he needed to understand how many women really wanted the 255 00:16:42,000 --> 00:16:44,520 vote. And so marches seemed like a 256 00:16:44,520 --> 00:16:48,240 good idea because they would have a large numbers of people 257 00:16:48,240 --> 00:16:51,640 attend them. So in 19 O 8, the Nuwss 258 00:16:51,880 --> 00:16:56,360 organised their second March ever in London, a highly 259 00:16:56,360 --> 00:17:00,400 coordinated event. Train tickets were bought and 260 00:17:00,400 --> 00:17:03,800 paid for women who wanted to come to London to be on the 261 00:17:03,800 --> 00:17:08,440 March who couldn't afford it. Food and drink was provided and 262 00:17:08,440 --> 00:17:11,720 off they marched through London, ending up in the Royal Albert 263 00:17:11,720 --> 00:17:15,040 Hall, where speeches were delivered by Millicent, Fawcett 264 00:17:15,040 --> 00:17:17,040 and others. There were banners, there were 265 00:17:17,040 --> 00:17:21,560 singing, but there was no violence, no malicancy and no 266 00:17:21,560 --> 00:17:25,240 police action either, and nobody ended up arrested. 267 00:17:26,040 --> 00:17:31,240 Asquith didn't really react to this March, he said. 268 00:17:31,240 --> 00:17:34,880 I'm still not sure that women really want the vote or that the 269 00:17:34,880 --> 00:17:38,920 majority of women really want the vote, and there was very low 270 00:17:38,920 --> 00:17:44,680 level publicity for this event. Contrast that in June, the last 271 00:17:44,680 --> 00:17:48,280 day of June, the suffragettes had already had a March, very 272 00:17:48,280 --> 00:17:50,560 successful March. I talk about that on my walk. 273 00:17:51,160 --> 00:17:54,120 But they decided to organise a demonstration in Parliament 274 00:17:54,120 --> 00:17:57,440 Square. Thousands attended with a large 275 00:17:57,440 --> 00:18:01,520 police presence and this turned into a huge clash between the 276 00:18:01,520 --> 00:18:04,600 women and police as they tried to get into parliament and lobby 277 00:18:04,600 --> 00:18:07,640 MPs. Although worse abuse was to come 278 00:18:07,640 --> 00:18:10,680 in the following years when this was pretty, but this was a 279 00:18:10,680 --> 00:18:15,360 pretty violent clash. In protest, 2 suffragettes took 280 00:18:15,400 --> 00:18:19,520 a taxi to Downing St. and they managed to get some stones out 281 00:18:19,520 --> 00:18:25,040 of their pockets and smash the prime Minister's windows at #10. 282 00:18:25,040 --> 00:18:28,000 Of course they were arrested. They got sent to Holloway 283 00:18:28,000 --> 00:18:30,880 prison. All of this was reported in the 284 00:18:30,880 --> 00:18:34,040 press, but you know, the suffragettes really like to make 285 00:18:34,040 --> 00:18:38,880 the most of their actions. So when Mary Lee and Edith knew 286 00:18:38,880 --> 00:18:42,160 those were the two suffragettes in prison in Holloway were 287 00:18:42,160 --> 00:18:45,360 released, several 100 suffragettes waiting for them, 288 00:18:46,240 --> 00:18:49,640 and they were taken by coach to the Queen's Hall. 289 00:18:49,640 --> 00:18:54,400 A breakfast had been prepared, there was a March along behind 290 00:18:54,400 --> 00:18:56,600 the carriage. Speeches were made. 291 00:18:57,120 --> 00:19:00,840 So the suffragettes were making enormous capital out of their 292 00:19:00,840 --> 00:19:04,040 event. Direct action, militancy, 293 00:19:04,560 --> 00:19:09,280 sympathy, talking about the appalling treatment meted out to 294 00:19:09,280 --> 00:19:14,000 the women, all of those kind of things made their events quite 295 00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:18,200 different from the N UW S. S it must be so frustrating. 296 00:19:18,200 --> 00:19:22,960 You've got an end point to target and no one up there is 297 00:19:22,960 --> 00:19:24,440 actually able to make that changes. 298 00:19:24,440 --> 00:19:28,280 Even wanting to listen. And even though showing 4000 299 00:19:28,280 --> 00:19:31,720 women on the streets and still going, oh, I'm not. 300 00:19:31,720 --> 00:19:35,560 Quite sure. Exactly. 301 00:19:36,800 --> 00:19:41,240 Neither organization succeeded in persuading the Liberal 302 00:19:41,240 --> 00:19:45,440 government in the early 20th century change the law any more 303 00:19:45,440 --> 00:19:49,280 than their predecessors, which is really rather disheartening. 304 00:19:49,760 --> 00:19:52,000 What were the reasons do you think? 305 00:19:53,200 --> 00:19:56,760 So I think there were a number of things, I think, throughout 306 00:19:56,760 --> 00:20:00,520 the 19th century, and this continued on into the early 20th 307 00:20:00,520 --> 00:20:04,520 century and even far beyond that, this whole idea that 308 00:20:04,520 --> 00:20:07,840 women. Were supposed to be the home 309 00:20:07,840 --> 00:20:12,000 makers that they were supposed to be, bringing up a family and 310 00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:16,240 looking after the house. Their world was private and 311 00:20:16,240 --> 00:20:20,440 their world was not in the public domain. 312 00:20:20,800 --> 00:20:23,240 Now of course this was fairly ridiculous. 313 00:20:23,240 --> 00:20:27,360 By this amount of time, laws had been passed which enabled women 314 00:20:27,360 --> 00:20:33,280 to, for example, be a mayor, to vote in local elections, to work 315 00:20:33,680 --> 00:20:37,520 in various posts like a Paul or guardian. 316 00:20:37,520 --> 00:20:39,320 They could be a factory inspector. 317 00:20:39,720 --> 00:20:45,240 We're not talking about all women, but somehow this was the 318 00:20:45,240 --> 00:20:49,840 last male bastion that they didn't really want women 319 00:20:49,840 --> 00:20:55,400 involved in, that They thought that women could not manage to 320 00:20:55,680 --> 00:21:00,280 understand the complexities of the world, or maybe their place 321 00:21:00,280 --> 00:21:03,120 was in the home. So there was this sort of 322 00:21:03,400 --> 00:21:06,680 attitude, which wasn't an attitude of all men, but 323 00:21:06,680 --> 00:21:10,720 unfortunately during that early part of the 20th century it was 324 00:21:10,720 --> 00:21:15,440 the attitude of the leadership. There were also a whole bunch of 325 00:21:15,440 --> 00:21:19,320 women who didn't agree with women getting the vote. 326 00:21:19,840 --> 00:21:24,000 And in 19 O 8, the Women's National Anti Suffrage League 327 00:21:24,000 --> 00:21:27,840 was established in London. And a huge leading light here 328 00:21:27,960 --> 00:21:32,480 was a woman called Mary Ward. And she was exactly the sort of 329 00:21:32,480 --> 00:21:34,760 person that you'd have expected would have been a suffragette, 330 00:21:34,760 --> 00:21:37,080 really. She had her own money. 331 00:21:37,360 --> 00:21:41,600 She was a novelist, and her book Robert Ellesmere had made her a 332 00:21:41,600 --> 00:21:47,200 millionaire, I think, I believe. And she, along with the prime 333 00:21:47,200 --> 00:21:53,560 minister's wife and others, were very vocal in denying that women 334 00:21:53,560 --> 00:21:58,120 should have the vote. They wanted women to vote in 335 00:21:58,120 --> 00:22:01,680 local councils, but out in the big wide world, they didn't 336 00:22:01,680 --> 00:22:03,600 think women should have the vote. 337 00:22:04,320 --> 00:22:09,400 And so this was a a kind of excuse, if you like, that the 338 00:22:09,640 --> 00:22:12,840 government could use to say, but we're not sure that all women 339 00:22:12,840 --> 00:22:16,280 want the vote. So therefore even though some 340 00:22:16,280 --> 00:22:19,520 people do, it wouldn't be right to give them the vote. 341 00:22:19,880 --> 00:22:23,480 Their militant tactics, of course, was something that the N 342 00:22:23,480 --> 00:22:29,160 UW S s blamed the suffragettes discrediting the movement for 343 00:22:29,160 --> 00:22:32,280 the votes for women. They wanted to be seen as 344 00:22:32,280 --> 00:22:35,960 rational, thoughtful, and the people who had the best 345 00:22:35,960 --> 00:22:39,320 argument, who had the argument for votes for women. 346 00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:43,240 And the militant tactics spoiled that they felt to some extent, 347 00:22:43,840 --> 00:22:47,720 but also, and probably a very big factor with this political 348 00:22:47,720 --> 00:22:51,480 fear, the fear of what would happen if women were given the 349 00:22:51,480 --> 00:22:54,040 vote. There were more women than men 350 00:22:54,080 --> 00:22:57,440 time, and so the electorate will be swamped by women. 351 00:22:57,560 --> 00:23:03,240 And then what would happen? The liberals feared that if you 352 00:23:03,240 --> 00:23:06,760 only gave the vote to some women, the wealthier women, they 353 00:23:06,760 --> 00:23:09,880 would all vote conservative. Others had a different view. 354 00:23:09,880 --> 00:23:14,600 But all of these things came together to mean that there 355 00:23:14,600 --> 00:23:18,360 wasn't going to be a government. Less legislation, if you like, 356 00:23:18,360 --> 00:23:22,600 supported by the leadership through parliament Now you've. 357 00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:25,880 Had a little listen of suffragettes and suffragists, 358 00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:28,400 what would you have been back then? 359 00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:31,680 I encourage you to have a little think in your own time. 360 00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:36,120 And all I'll say is that well behaved women rarely make 361 00:23:36,120 --> 00:23:39,200 history. Kirsty, thank you very much. 362 00:23:40,640 --> 00:23:42,320 Thank you. So we. 363 00:23:42,320 --> 00:23:46,320 Have lots more episodes about women's history, but the ones 364 00:23:46,320 --> 00:23:51,240 about suffragettes and suffragists include episode 131 365 00:23:51,240 --> 00:23:55,320 the previous week Endle St. and its military Hospital. 366 00:23:55,640 --> 00:24:02,280 Also episode 121 which is suffragette Annie Kenny and then 367 00:24:02,280 --> 00:24:08,440 also episodes 103 and 104 which is about Annie Besant and mid 368 00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:11,840 19th century London. So plenty for you to listen to. 369 00:24:12,160 --> 00:24:14,560 Thanks for joining us. Until next time.