1 00:00:13,530 --> 00:00:18,610 Welcome to episode 137 of the London History Podcast, where we 2 00:00:18,610 --> 00:00:21,530 share the stories of people, places, and events that have 3 00:00:21,530 --> 00:00:27,250 shaped our capital. I am Hazel Baker, CEO of London 4 00:00:27,250 --> 00:00:32,800 guidedwalks.co.uk. Today we are travelling beneath 5 00:00:32,800 --> 00:00:37,760 the surface, quite literally, into a story of extraordinary 6 00:00:37,760 --> 00:00:42,120 ambition, innovation and engineering genius. 7 00:00:43,000 --> 00:00:47,240 Imagine Victorian London, the River Thames teeming with ships, 8 00:00:47,240 --> 00:00:53,160 and beneath it, a bold and unprecedented idea to dig the 9 00:00:53,160 --> 00:00:57,400 world's first tunnel under a river. 10 00:00:58,320 --> 00:01:02,320 This was no fantasy, but the work of a remarkable father and 11 00:01:02,320 --> 00:01:07,440 son team, Mark Isimbard Brunel and his son Isimbard Kingdom 12 00:01:07,440 --> 00:01:10,760 Brunel. Our guest today is Catherine 13 00:01:10,760 --> 00:01:14,600 McAlpine and she's the director of the Brunel Museum, which 14 00:01:14,600 --> 00:01:18,280 stands on the very site where this groundbreaking project took 15 00:01:18,280 --> 00:01:21,480 shape. Many know that Isabel Kingdom 16 00:01:21,480 --> 00:01:25,080 Brunel was voted the second greatest Britain of all time in 17 00:01:25,080 --> 00:01:28,360 2006, just behind Winston Churchill. 18 00:01:28,920 --> 00:01:33,800 But fewer realised that his father, Mark Brunel, the true 19 00:01:33,800 --> 00:01:37,080 architect of the Thames Tunnel, was French. 20 00:01:37,720 --> 00:01:41,160 Forced to flee his homeland during the Revolution, he made 21 00:01:41,160 --> 00:01:44,920 his way to New York before ultimately finding fame and 22 00:01:44,920 --> 00:01:49,600 fortune here in Britain. Will return to that remarkable 23 00:01:49,600 --> 00:01:53,040 journey in a moment. Catherine, welcome. 24 00:01:53,520 --> 00:01:55,400 It's a real pleasure to have you with us. 25 00:01:55,400 --> 00:01:58,280 Thanks. For having me, I'm excited to be 26 00:01:58,280 --> 00:02:01,680 here. Now we've got a lot of things 27 00:02:01,680 --> 00:02:05,480 that we need to cover today to absolutely jam pack it in, but 28 00:02:05,480 --> 00:02:09,240 with focus on 1st. I think the Thames Tunnel in 29 00:02:09,240 --> 00:02:12,160 itself, some people may have never even heard of it. 30 00:02:12,160 --> 00:02:17,040 So what is it? So the Thames Tunnel was the 31 00:02:17,040 --> 00:02:21,400 very first tunnel under a river anywhere in the world and we 32 00:02:21,400 --> 00:02:24,400 take for granted now taking if you live in London, you're used 33 00:02:24,400 --> 00:02:28,240 to ping ponging from north-south under the river using the 34 00:02:28,240 --> 00:02:30,800 Underground. But actually 200 years ago in 35 00:02:30,800 --> 00:02:33,920 1825, that was a complete novelty. 36 00:02:34,160 --> 00:02:37,680 People have tried to dig under the Thames to connect North and 37 00:02:37,680 --> 00:02:41,320 South and had failed. Unfortunately it hadn't worked. 38 00:02:41,600 --> 00:02:45,320 So that's why the 10 panelists exciting and important because 39 00:02:45,320 --> 00:02:48,080 it was the world's first and we we take it for granted now. 40 00:02:48,960 --> 00:02:53,560 But actually there was no guarantee of success in 1825 41 00:02:53,560 --> 00:02:58,480 that this tunnel would succeed, let alone it surviving 200 years 42 00:02:58,480 --> 00:03:03,560 later. Amazing, how long is the tunnel? 43 00:03:05,600 --> 00:03:09,840 Oh, it's not very long at all in terms of distance, in terms of 44 00:03:09,840 --> 00:03:12,840 time. And to construct it, it took 45 00:03:12,880 --> 00:03:16,960 them 18 years, which was quite significantly longer than the 46 00:03:16,960 --> 00:03:20,760 three years that they had estimated because with no one 47 00:03:20,760 --> 00:03:23,200 having done it before, they sort of, you know, it was a great 48 00:03:23,200 --> 00:03:25,000 sort of finger in the air. Yeah. 49 00:03:25,040 --> 00:03:28,280 Three years, yeah, but ended up taking 18 to build and. 50 00:03:28,480 --> 00:03:31,160 Why did they choose that particular location then from 51 00:03:31,160 --> 00:03:33,640 Wapping to rather Hive? What was in it there? 52 00:03:35,040 --> 00:03:37,600 Couple of reasons. One of the really important 53 00:03:37,600 --> 00:03:40,520 reasons is to do with the original purpose of the tunnel, 54 00:03:40,720 --> 00:03:44,360 which was to carry cargo from one side of the river to the 55 00:03:44,360 --> 00:03:46,240 other. Rather high than whopping at 56 00:03:46,240 --> 00:03:50,520 that time was really important, kind of dot, lots of cargo 57 00:03:50,520 --> 00:03:55,480 coming in from across the world across the Empire coming into 58 00:03:55,480 --> 00:03:59,160 London, which was a huge port city and the only way at that 59 00:03:59,160 --> 00:04:03,680 point of crossing from north to South, the furthest east was 60 00:04:03,680 --> 00:04:05,560 London Bridge. There were plenty of bridges 61 00:04:05,560 --> 00:04:08,920 further up the river to the West, but the most easterly 62 00:04:08,920 --> 00:04:12,480 bridge was London Bridge. It would take a really long time 63 00:04:12,560 --> 00:04:15,560 to get through traffic and nothing ever changes but to take 64 00:04:15,560 --> 00:04:20,240 things by load over the bridge, who could be a long time. 65 00:04:20,480 --> 00:04:23,280 And if you couldn't move your cargo, you had to run the ship 66 00:04:23,280 --> 00:04:27,960 through in the warehouses, which meant that it's much more to be 67 00:04:27,960 --> 00:04:31,120 susceptible to high risky and. Shrinkage. 68 00:04:31,360 --> 00:04:33,720 I think we call. It it's shrinking sprinkles 69 00:04:33,760 --> 00:04:38,480 exactly that that fantastic. So that was a real issue with 70 00:04:38,480 --> 00:04:43,280 sort of trying to get cargo from one side to put it in the dark, 71 00:04:43,280 --> 00:04:44,640 make it as convenient as possible. 72 00:04:44,760 --> 00:04:48,520 The other reason is geology. And so one of the things that 73 00:04:48,520 --> 00:04:51,400 was really clever about the way that Mark Brunel designed the 74 00:04:51,400 --> 00:04:55,320 digging of the tunnel was he used the soft earth rocket hive 75 00:04:55,440 --> 00:04:59,960 to his advantage. They thunk and shaft into the 76 00:04:59,960 --> 00:05:04,600 ground and instead of digging, they built it onto the ground 77 00:05:05,200 --> 00:05:09,040 and let it think. So having that sort of accurate 78 00:05:09,040 --> 00:05:12,840 geology meant that they could supposedly meant that it would 79 00:05:12,840 --> 00:05:17,520 be easier to dig this tunnel. So the location was one reason 80 00:05:17,520 --> 00:05:19,040 and then the sort of geology the other. 81 00:05:20,800 --> 00:05:23,240 And of course, this is going to be saving a lot of money, let 82 00:05:23,240 --> 00:05:26,400 alone the shrinkage. But of course, keeping anything 83 00:05:26,400 --> 00:05:29,760 in a warehouse rather than getting that product to market, 84 00:05:29,840 --> 00:05:32,120 it's going to cost money by just sitting there. 85 00:05:32,120 --> 00:05:35,960 So moving it as soon as you can was an advantage, which means 86 00:05:36,280 --> 00:05:40,000 they are saving money. So who was putting in the money 87 00:05:40,720 --> 00:05:44,640 to build this tunnel? So it was definitely intended as 88 00:05:44,640 --> 00:05:47,320 a commercial enterprise. It was meant to be this sort of 89 00:05:47,320 --> 00:05:51,440 toll tolled Rd. between the sort of the dock that you could move 90 00:05:51,440 --> 00:05:54,040 your cargo and you'd get lots of income from that. 91 00:05:54,040 --> 00:05:58,360 So lots of people saw the value of this from when Mark Brunel 92 00:05:58,360 --> 00:06:01,280 patented this cunning shield in 1818. 93 00:06:01,480 --> 00:06:06,040 In 1824, he gave a lecture to the Institute of Civil Engineers 94 00:06:06,040 --> 00:06:09,200 about this fantastic idea that he's had, and he got all these 95 00:06:09,200 --> 00:06:14,320 sorts of entrepreneurs, prime individuals, to invest in what 96 00:06:14,320 --> 00:06:16,440 became the Thames Tunnel Company. 97 00:06:16,440 --> 00:06:19,840 So that's how they got their original funding. 98 00:06:20,160 --> 00:06:23,480 But unfortunately, because it was the first time they'd ever 99 00:06:23,480 --> 00:06:26,840 done it, it was not the most kind of plain sailing 100 00:06:26,880 --> 00:06:29,120 enterprise. It was really quite challenging 101 00:06:29,440 --> 00:06:31,320 and they kept running out of money. 102 00:06:31,560 --> 00:06:33,760 So they kept having to go back to the investors, getting new 103 00:06:33,760 --> 00:06:35,440 investors, getting more people in. 104 00:06:35,800 --> 00:06:39,840 They sold paper peak shows in order to generate income. 105 00:06:40,040 --> 00:06:43,080 They'd bring visitors to look at the tunnelling constructions, 106 00:06:43,080 --> 00:06:44,880 try and raise some of that money. 107 00:06:45,280 --> 00:06:48,360 And actually at a point they they just completely ran out of 108 00:06:48,360 --> 00:06:50,800 money. I had to block up the tunnel. 109 00:06:50,920 --> 00:06:54,640 They're to stop construction. Construction stopped for about 110 00:06:54,640 --> 00:07:00,160 the 7-8 years at that point. Mark Brunel spent years 111 00:07:00,160 --> 00:07:02,520 petitioning, campaigning, writing letters. 112 00:07:02,880 --> 00:07:05,000 So anyone who would listen to say we need to finish this 113 00:07:05,000 --> 00:07:07,200 tunnel, we need to absolutely finish this tunnel. 114 00:07:07,440 --> 00:07:10,400 And then the Duke of Wellington eventually got involved and 115 00:07:10,400 --> 00:07:13,280 actually it was support from the government meant that they could 116 00:07:13,280 --> 00:07:17,160 finally finish the project. So yeah, it had a, even though 117 00:07:17,160 --> 00:07:21,000 it was intended to be a sort of commercial project, it was 118 00:07:21,000 --> 00:07:23,600 really quite financially challenging the whole time of 119 00:07:23,600 --> 00:07:25,720 it, the whole 18 years of its construction. 120 00:07:26,560 --> 00:07:30,440 So what inspired Mark Brunel to undertake such an ambitious 121 00:07:30,440 --> 00:07:34,720 engineering project anyway? There was a real kind of 122 00:07:34,720 --> 00:07:40,040 commercial reason for wanting to dig, dig this tunnel to connect 123 00:07:40,040 --> 00:07:42,600 up the docks on either side of the river. 124 00:07:42,600 --> 00:07:46,560 That was really important, and it made a lot of sense at that 125 00:07:46,560 --> 00:07:49,600 time. The thing that really made his 126 00:07:49,600 --> 00:07:53,200 project a success where others had failed was the tunnelling 127 00:07:53,200 --> 00:07:56,520 shield that he'd patented in 1818. 128 00:07:56,760 --> 00:08:01,560 And it was a way of protecting both the miners, the people 129 00:08:01,560 --> 00:08:05,320 doing the tunneling, but also protecting the tunnel itself as 130 00:08:05,320 --> 00:08:09,240 construction was happening. And the inspiration for that 131 00:08:09,840 --> 00:08:13,920 came from something called a shipworm, the humble Teredo 132 00:08:13,920 --> 00:08:17,760 Navales, which is not a worm at all, in fact it's a mollusk. 133 00:08:18,120 --> 00:08:22,680 But Mark Brunel, before he came to London, was in Portsmouth. 134 00:08:22,680 --> 00:08:26,040 He was part of the Royal Navy and he saw first hand the kind 135 00:08:26,040 --> 00:08:30,760 of havoc that these sort of tiny mollusks would wrought on all 136 00:08:30,760 --> 00:08:34,039 the Royal Navy ships. So they would they'd dig hole 137 00:08:34,320 --> 00:08:38,039 using, using the kind of shells at the top of their heads to dig 138 00:08:38,039 --> 00:08:39,880 these holes in the Timbers of ship. 139 00:08:40,280 --> 00:08:43,799 But the really clever thing that they do is they then create a 140 00:08:43,799 --> 00:08:46,040 protective casing around themselves. 141 00:08:46,280 --> 00:08:49,600 And that was the thing that previous attempts to dig a 142 00:08:49,600 --> 00:08:53,320 tunnel under a river had failed because there wasn't this sort 143 00:08:53,320 --> 00:08:58,280 of protective casing. So when Mark passages his 144 00:08:58,720 --> 00:09:03,120 tunneling Shields, it had this kind of wooden cover for miners 145 00:09:03,160 --> 00:09:05,800 to protect them for any kind of collapse from the soft earth. 146 00:09:06,080 --> 00:09:09,720 But behind them you'd have these brick layers come in and then 147 00:09:09,720 --> 00:09:12,800 they would line the tunnel with bricks, which meant it could 148 00:09:12,800 --> 00:09:17,080 withstand the pressure from sort of the water and the geology 149 00:09:17,080 --> 00:09:19,400 above. So that was being inspired by 150 00:09:19,400 --> 00:09:22,680 nature is one of the great elements of the Thames Tunnel 151 00:09:22,680 --> 00:09:25,960 story. So his focus wasn't on really 152 00:09:25,960 --> 00:09:29,920 the the tunnelling as it were, because if we think of within 153 00:09:29,920 --> 00:09:33,160 working in the Navy and reinventing that block making 154 00:09:33,160 --> 00:09:38,000 system, his is actually the fixing a problem that no one 155 00:09:38,000 --> 00:09:39,400 else could. They could do the bit of the 156 00:09:39,400 --> 00:09:42,200 tunnelling, but it was the collapsing which they need some 157 00:09:42,200 --> 00:09:46,680 help with. You have a model in the Museum 158 00:09:46,840 --> 00:09:49,560 of this shield. Can you tell us a little bit 159 00:09:49,560 --> 00:09:56,000 more about it please? It was made-up of 36 cells is 160 00:09:56,000 --> 00:09:58,200 what they were called. They're all, all about the size 161 00:09:58,200 --> 00:10:00,600 of a man. There were no women, as far as 162 00:10:00,600 --> 00:10:03,240 we know, involved in the construction of the Thames 163 00:10:03,240 --> 00:10:07,760 Tunnel, but you had sort of 12 cells along, so 12 men along and 164 00:10:07,760 --> 00:10:10,520 three levels, so bottom, middle and top. 165 00:10:11,080 --> 00:10:14,960 And each, each miner in front of them had a series of polling 166 00:10:14,960 --> 00:10:18,440 boards, so just wooden panels. And they'd remove each wooden 167 00:10:18,440 --> 00:10:21,680 panel, dig behind it by hand. This is all being done by hand 168 00:10:21,680 --> 00:10:23,240 tools. There's no machinery. 169 00:10:23,600 --> 00:10:26,760 And all 36 of them would dig the width of a brick. 170 00:10:27,320 --> 00:10:30,040 And once they dug, they'd return the polling board, do the same 171 00:10:30,040 --> 00:10:33,200 with the next polling board. And by the time the whole thing 172 00:10:33,200 --> 00:10:36,040 had gone, they dug out the width of this brick. 173 00:10:36,240 --> 00:10:39,120 The whole thing would move forward on a sort of series of 174 00:10:39,120 --> 00:10:42,480 kind of cranks and screws and then the brick layers would come 175 00:10:42,480 --> 00:10:46,880 in and do their level. So it's really painstaking work 176 00:10:47,400 --> 00:10:50,640 that they do. And yeah, if for the poor miners 177 00:10:50,640 --> 00:10:54,080 on the bottom, they're standing in Thames Water, which isn't 178 00:10:54,080 --> 00:10:57,320 that lovely to stand in now, but at this time it was, this is pre 179 00:10:57,320 --> 00:10:59,640 Basil Jet. This is, it's a, the Thames is 180 00:10:59,640 --> 00:11:02,880 an open sewer. But they were provided with 181 00:11:02,880 --> 00:11:05,280 boots by the Thames Tunnel Company. 182 00:11:05,400 --> 00:11:07,240 So that would that would help them. 183 00:11:07,280 --> 00:11:10,360 The only thing is they did have to share those boots with all of 184 00:11:10,360 --> 00:11:14,240 the other miners, so you come into work and have to get into 185 00:11:14,240 --> 00:11:17,280 someone's stinky wet. Boots, I couldn't do that. 186 00:11:17,520 --> 00:11:20,920 Oh yeah, it's it's 100 times worse than bowling shoes. 187 00:11:20,920 --> 00:11:24,240 It's horrible. So these miners literally at the 188 00:11:24,240 --> 00:11:27,160 mud face, are these experienced miners? 189 00:11:27,160 --> 00:11:29,920 Are they nabbies? What's their skill set? 190 00:11:31,880 --> 00:11:35,680 So we think that they're sort of the miners and the tunnelers at 191 00:11:35,680 --> 00:11:37,200 the mud face. I really like that. 192 00:11:37,200 --> 00:11:38,880 I'm stealing that. I'm going to use that. 193 00:11:39,200 --> 00:11:43,480 They were experienced miners from places like Somerset and 194 00:11:43,480 --> 00:11:47,640 they were employed for their skill in this work at the brick 195 00:11:47,640 --> 00:11:49,680 layers. I think were the most skilled 196 00:11:49,680 --> 00:11:52,720 employees. And then they were the ones that 197 00:11:52,720 --> 00:11:55,360 tried to go on strike because they weren't big paid enough. 198 00:11:55,360 --> 00:11:59,160 But you also had but lots of these, lots of labourers moving 199 00:11:59,160 --> 00:12:01,760 the spoil. So you had a bit of a sort of 200 00:12:01,760 --> 00:12:05,000 hierarchy, lots of different jobs, more, some more skilled, 201 00:12:05,000 --> 00:12:07,200 some less skilled. When you're talking about 202 00:12:07,200 --> 00:12:11,560 skilled labour, did they have a little shanty town where all the 203 00:12:11,560 --> 00:12:15,560 workers live together? A lot of them lived quite lived 204 00:12:15,600 --> 00:12:18,640 locally. So the way that the kind of 205 00:12:18,640 --> 00:12:22,720 shift pattern works was the shield was always, it was always 206 00:12:22,720 --> 00:12:24,400 an operation, it was always going. 207 00:12:24,400 --> 00:12:27,280 So you have sort of eight hours on, 8 hours off. 208 00:12:27,680 --> 00:12:30,760 So you would finish your shift and then another miner would 209 00:12:30,760 --> 00:12:34,880 come and replace you and then you'd swap that way. 210 00:12:35,240 --> 00:12:38,400 One of the things about the Brunels that some of the workers 211 00:12:38,720 --> 00:12:42,360 certainly appeared to appreciate is that they were very hands on 212 00:12:42,360 --> 00:12:44,720 employers. Isn't Bard King de Brunel. 213 00:12:44,720 --> 00:12:50,480 He was only 19 when the project started and he we've been 214 00:12:50,480 --> 00:12:53,080 talking about, you see the original sort of nepo baby 215 00:12:53,080 --> 00:12:56,240 because it was his dad got him the job and he then went on to 216 00:12:56,240 --> 00:12:58,440 be this incredible civil engineers. 217 00:12:58,600 --> 00:13:01,640 But he's really learned his craft under his dad on the 218 00:13:01,640 --> 00:13:05,760 Thames Tunnel project. But he was, he was really, as 219 00:13:05,760 --> 00:13:08,920 far as we know, quite liked and quite well respected by a lot of 220 00:13:08,920 --> 00:13:12,360 the workers, not necessarily all of them because he was really 221 00:13:12,440 --> 00:13:14,680 hands on. He was a bit of a workaholic 222 00:13:14,680 --> 00:13:17,120 even then in the early days of his career. 223 00:13:17,440 --> 00:13:20,240 He'd sleep in the tunnel sometime. 224 00:13:20,240 --> 00:13:22,240 He just, he was like, I need to be back here in a couple of 225 00:13:22,240 --> 00:13:24,240 hours to check, so I'll just stay here. 226 00:13:24,600 --> 00:13:27,800 So yeah, it was a real, it was like a sort of mini town. 227 00:13:27,960 --> 00:13:31,840 There were all these sorts of industries around the blacksmith 228 00:13:31,840 --> 00:13:35,360 forges, people making bricks, lots of things happening. 229 00:13:35,960 --> 00:13:38,080 It was very industrial and bustly. 230 00:13:38,080 --> 00:13:41,880 And if you come to the museum where the Thames Tunnel is, it's 231 00:13:41,880 --> 00:13:44,520 not like that today. It's like this sort of sleepy 232 00:13:44,760 --> 00:13:47,720 hidden London village. It's very quiet. 233 00:13:48,360 --> 00:13:50,440 But 200 years ago, it would not have been like that. 234 00:13:50,440 --> 00:13:53,200 You've had, you've had people shouting, swearing. 235 00:13:53,200 --> 00:13:55,480 Probably half of them were drunk. 236 00:13:55,720 --> 00:13:57,840 They were given only. Yeah, the other half were 237 00:13:57,840 --> 00:14:00,360 asleep, presumably. But they, they were given 238 00:14:00,360 --> 00:14:03,400 whiskey as part of their sort of, presumably because the 239 00:14:03,400 --> 00:14:06,640 conditions were so hard. And it was, this is how you get 240 00:14:06,640 --> 00:14:10,760 people into work when it's such a kind of tough, challenging 241 00:14:10,760 --> 00:14:11,440 job. Yeah. 242 00:14:11,800 --> 00:14:14,280 It's really interesting what you're saying about how some of 243 00:14:14,280 --> 00:14:19,200 the work has really appreciated IK being hands on because I was 244 00:14:19,200 --> 00:14:23,840 reading his obituary in the Engineer magazine and it was 245 00:14:23,840 --> 00:14:27,400 very picky saying he got too involved and too hands on. 246 00:14:27,520 --> 00:14:31,440 But of course written by people who wouldn't even think of being 247 00:14:31,440 --> 00:14:33,680 hands on. So you've got to keep the 248 00:14:33,680 --> 00:14:36,920 workers happy. If you think 8 hour shift that 249 00:14:36,920 --> 00:14:40,680 is gruelling with the amount of stuff you're having to step 250 00:14:40,680 --> 00:14:43,640 through and work in. What about the air quality as 251 00:14:43,640 --> 00:14:47,120 well? Yeah, the air quality was not 252 00:14:47,120 --> 00:14:49,080 great. So if you think about it, the 253 00:14:49,080 --> 00:14:52,440 air's only coming from this sort of from this kind of shaft on 254 00:14:52,440 --> 00:14:55,120 the southern, on the Rotherhide side of the river. 255 00:14:55,120 --> 00:14:57,120 That's where your kind of air is coming in from. 256 00:14:57,120 --> 00:15:02,880 And the further under the Thames you go, the less good that air 257 00:15:02,880 --> 00:15:06,280 quality becomes. Add to that the fact that you're 258 00:15:06,280 --> 00:15:10,360 stepping in Thames Water, which is basically human waste. 259 00:15:10,760 --> 00:15:14,040 And then also the other challenge that they had is as 260 00:15:14,040 --> 00:15:16,920 they were digging, they'd occasionally encounter sort of 261 00:15:16,920 --> 00:15:19,400 pockets of methane or other gases. 262 00:15:19,680 --> 00:15:23,880 And bearing in mind that this is entirely lit by gas lamp, that 263 00:15:23,880 --> 00:15:27,440 explosions were not uncommon. There were also times they'd 264 00:15:27,440 --> 00:15:31,280 encounter, I think certainly I think it was sulfuric acid. 265 00:15:31,280 --> 00:15:34,320 It was certainly an acid. And we've got reports of people 266 00:15:34,320 --> 00:15:38,160 suffering from what was known as tunnel blindness, usually 267 00:15:38,160 --> 00:15:43,240 temporarily but sometimes not. So it's really not a this is 268 00:15:43,240 --> 00:15:47,000 Victorian health and safety at its best in in that it's 269 00:15:47,000 --> 00:15:51,560 completely non existent. And what were the Brunel's 270 00:15:52,720 --> 00:15:56,200 feelings? Thoughts on the kind of human 271 00:15:56,200 --> 00:16:00,720 cost? So that's, that's a really 272 00:16:00,720 --> 00:16:03,560 interesting question. Both Mark and Isenbard were 273 00:16:04,040 --> 00:16:07,080 worked very hard. They were very quite driven, 274 00:16:07,080 --> 00:16:11,680 quite motivated people. And we have a there's an entry 275 00:16:11,680 --> 00:16:15,960 in Mark Brunel's diary from sort of Christmas one year quite 276 00:16:15,960 --> 00:16:18,720 early on in the project where he's I can't believe that they 277 00:16:18,720 --> 00:16:21,520 want Christmas off. I can't believe that they don't 278 00:16:21,520 --> 00:16:23,280 want. So he comes across as a real 279 00:16:23,280 --> 00:16:27,960 propest group, like a real sort of similarly was it's quite well 280 00:16:27,960 --> 00:16:30,560 documented. He was, he works incredibly hard 281 00:16:31,440 --> 00:16:34,920 ideas, modern ideas like self-care, very much not, not 282 00:16:34,920 --> 00:16:36,520 something that he would recognize. 283 00:16:36,920 --> 00:16:41,840 But actually when the workers went on strike, this was a week 284 00:16:41,840 --> 00:16:45,400 into Isabad being resident engineer. 285 00:16:45,760 --> 00:16:49,040 So he's just been given his first pickle job by your dad. 286 00:16:49,360 --> 00:16:52,360 And then he's told, oh, now you've got to go and break this 287 00:16:52,360 --> 00:16:56,040 strike, which he does because that's his job and that's what 288 00:16:56,040 --> 00:16:58,920 he's been told to do. But in his sort of personal 289 00:16:58,920 --> 00:17:02,560 diary he write, I don't really understand why these people 290 00:17:02,800 --> 00:17:05,000 shouldn't be getting properly paid. 291 00:17:05,000 --> 00:17:07,160 They should be compensated for their work. 292 00:17:07,440 --> 00:17:11,000 So it's quite interesting that kind of public, private persona 293 00:17:11,000 --> 00:17:13,040 as well. So yeah, they're quite, they 294 00:17:13,079 --> 00:17:16,520 were very involved certainly both Brunel's in the kind of 295 00:17:16,520 --> 00:17:18,359 day-to-day. But yeah, their attitude 296 00:17:18,359 --> 00:17:21,599 probably differed in the way that they responded to the 297 00:17:21,599 --> 00:17:24,359 people around them and. What about the public perception 298 00:17:24,359 --> 00:17:28,079 then with this tunnel evolving and they must have been seeing 299 00:17:28,319 --> 00:17:33,480 adverts to invest et cetera? So I think like anything new and 300 00:17:33,480 --> 00:17:37,640 different and a bit novel and that there's an equal mix of 301 00:17:37,640 --> 00:17:40,040 kind of fascination and frightening. 302 00:17:40,480 --> 00:17:43,400 And I think people really saw that they, we've got reports of 303 00:17:43,400 --> 00:17:48,240 the local vicar in his weekly sermon after one of the floods 304 00:17:48,280 --> 00:17:51,320 saying that's what you get, but for digging towards the devil. 305 00:17:51,680 --> 00:17:54,600 And that there was this real sense that hell was down there, 306 00:17:54,640 --> 00:17:58,720 why are you going down there? And so some people really were 307 00:17:58,720 --> 00:18:02,280 quite frightened by it. I thought it was really a bit 308 00:18:02,280 --> 00:18:04,640 beyond the pale. And other people were just 309 00:18:04,640 --> 00:18:08,400 completely fascinated. So that we've got some, we've 310 00:18:08,400 --> 00:18:12,600 got some amazing accounts of people coming to visit the 311 00:18:12,600 --> 00:18:15,320 Thames Tunnel because it was one of the ways that they generated 312 00:18:15,320 --> 00:18:18,320 income for the project. Mark Brunel didn't like it. 313 00:18:18,680 --> 00:18:21,080 He was worried. Interestingly, he was worried 314 00:18:21,080 --> 00:18:22,520 about the safety of the visitors. 315 00:18:22,520 --> 00:18:24,400 He thought this is quite a risky project. 316 00:18:24,400 --> 00:18:27,760 I don't think we should be just letting you know, civilian down 317 00:18:27,760 --> 00:18:30,960 here. But the the actress Fanny 318 00:18:30,960 --> 00:18:36,000 Campbell came to visit and she was absolutely fascinated by by 319 00:18:36,000 --> 00:18:37,720 the engineering that was taking place. 320 00:18:37,960 --> 00:18:41,280 And another person that your listers might have heard of is 321 00:18:41,280 --> 00:18:43,960 Anne Lister. Gentleman Jack from the TV 322 00:18:43,960 --> 00:18:48,120 series tried to bring a date to the Thames Tunnel and the date 323 00:18:48,280 --> 00:18:50,320 wasn't keen. I think the date never turned up 324 00:18:50,320 --> 00:18:54,080 but analyst that went on her own and has written about the the 325 00:18:54,080 --> 00:18:55,720 fascinating engineering that was happening. 326 00:18:55,720 --> 00:18:58,960 So there were lots of people who were really quite swept up in in 327 00:18:58,960 --> 00:19:02,600 this exciting project. And are there any particular 328 00:19:02,600 --> 00:19:06,400 artifacts or maybe stories in the museum that you feel really 329 00:19:06,400 --> 00:19:10,720 capture that spirit or drama of the Thames Tunnel project? 330 00:19:12,440 --> 00:19:15,680 So I think we've got some fantastic, we've got some 331 00:19:15,680 --> 00:19:17,520 fantastic kind of works on paper. 332 00:19:17,880 --> 00:19:22,120 And one of the things that isn't on display yet, but will be is a 333 00:19:22,600 --> 00:19:24,840 this sort of beautiful cardboard model. 334 00:19:25,040 --> 00:19:30,200 It's handmade and it shows the tunnel in progress. 335 00:19:30,200 --> 00:19:33,560 It shows the tunneling shield, complete with little, absolutely 336 00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:35,320 tiny. It's about centimeter and a half 337 00:19:35,680 --> 00:19:38,520 miners and brick layers. And they're paper. 338 00:19:38,520 --> 00:19:40,920 They're absolutely, they're so delicate. 339 00:19:41,840 --> 00:19:44,840 And the one we have in our collection was Mark Brunell's. 340 00:19:45,200 --> 00:19:49,080 But these were made and sold. There was a little guide book 341 00:19:49,080 --> 00:19:52,440 that went with them that is on display in the museum and they 342 00:19:52,440 --> 00:19:54,920 were sold to raise money for the project. 343 00:19:54,920 --> 00:19:57,640 They were, oh, look, we've made this lovely shiny the way that 344 00:19:57,640 --> 00:20:00,680 you might get a brochure now if you're thinking about investing 345 00:20:00,680 --> 00:20:04,560 in something instead, in the 1820s, you'd get this sort of 346 00:20:04,560 --> 00:20:08,480 beautiful little paper model. And I just think that sort of 347 00:20:08,480 --> 00:20:11,760 captures. But it's also this sort of 348 00:20:11,760 --> 00:20:16,640 stylized view of what it was like that doesn't really capture 349 00:20:16,960 --> 00:20:20,360 the sort of grim reality. And I suppose that's one thing 350 00:20:20,560 --> 00:20:23,520 that all of the sort of images you get because of who produced 351 00:20:23,520 --> 00:20:26,320 them show this kind of relatively sanitized view. 352 00:20:26,320 --> 00:20:28,840 But we do have some amazing sketches as well that sort of 353 00:20:28,840 --> 00:20:33,360 show the tunnel after the floods that sort of give you a sense of 354 00:20:33,360 --> 00:20:35,640 some of the sort of danger that they were dealing with. 355 00:20:35,720 --> 00:20:38,520 And how did the opening of this tunnel, if you've got this 356 00:20:38,520 --> 00:20:43,240 little shanty town, how did that turn and also wider area of 357 00:20:43,240 --> 00:20:47,160 London affect once the this tunnel was finally open? 358 00:20:48,880 --> 00:20:52,400 So I think the important thing with the sort of tunnel finally 359 00:20:52,400 --> 00:20:56,120 being open after after 18 years of construction and digging, 360 00:20:56,760 --> 00:20:59,600 unfortunately, even though it was always intended to be this 361 00:20:59,600 --> 00:21:03,320 kind of cargo tunnel to take horses and carts with cargo from 362 00:21:03,320 --> 00:21:04,720 one side of the river to the other. 363 00:21:05,160 --> 00:21:08,920 In order to facilitate that, they needed to build what they 364 00:21:08,920 --> 00:21:12,400 referred to as the grand descent safts like we've got on the 365 00:21:12,400 --> 00:21:16,320 North and South side at the moment, but much bigger, which 366 00:21:16,320 --> 00:21:19,080 would have given you a much sort of a greater diameter for horse 367 00:21:19,080 --> 00:21:22,520 and carts to go down. By the time they'd finished the 368 00:21:22,520 --> 00:21:27,200 project 18 years later, there was neither the sort of finance 369 00:21:27,200 --> 00:21:29,280 available. That's the the lenders. 370 00:21:29,280 --> 00:21:31,680 The investors were just like, no, we're not giving you any 371 00:21:31,680 --> 00:21:35,240 more money towards this project. It's already taken enough of my 372 00:21:35,240 --> 00:21:39,920 money and they there wasn't enough money to purchase the 373 00:21:39,920 --> 00:21:43,880 land to do those grander cents. But even if they had the money, 374 00:21:44,120 --> 00:21:48,240 the land had actually been sold. Don't ask me why they didn't at 375 00:21:48,280 --> 00:21:50,800 the beginning of the project, go, we need that land, let's buy 376 00:21:50,800 --> 00:21:53,120 it now. That was characteristic of the 377 00:21:53,280 --> 00:21:56,120 business decisions that they were making at that time. 378 00:21:56,800 --> 00:22:00,160 So because they didn't build those descents, which meant that 379 00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:03,560 they could move cargo. When it opened in 1843, the 380 00:22:03,720 --> 00:22:06,600 Thames Tunnel opened as a pedestrian foot tunnel. 381 00:22:06,960 --> 00:22:09,160 So not the cargo tunnel it was meant to be. 382 00:22:09,360 --> 00:22:12,920 You paid a penny to go through it, which is much less than the 383 00:22:12,920 --> 00:22:15,600 sort of cargo tolls that they've been anticipating. 384 00:22:16,040 --> 00:22:19,240 So they needed to generate revenue some other way. 385 00:22:19,520 --> 00:22:22,240 So it opened huge fanfare in 1843. 386 00:22:22,240 --> 00:22:24,840 It was really exciting. People had been waiting for this 387 00:22:24,840 --> 00:22:30,040 thing hugely popular, but actually they needed, they 388 00:22:30,040 --> 00:22:31,720 needed other ways of generating income. 389 00:22:31,720 --> 00:22:35,800 So it became this underwater shopping arcade that sort of you 390 00:22:35,800 --> 00:22:37,840 had people buying and selling wares. 391 00:22:38,160 --> 00:22:41,960 It became this just huge tourist attraction was really popular. 392 00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:47,280 And what about special events then? 393 00:22:47,480 --> 00:22:49,600 What was happening to get people down there? 394 00:22:51,040 --> 00:22:54,200 The one of the other things that they did in order to make money 395 00:22:54,200 --> 00:22:57,880 and recoup these costs where they ran things for fancy fares. 396 00:22:58,080 --> 00:23:01,360 So they would have these sort of big extravaganza type events 397 00:23:01,440 --> 00:23:05,560 with all sorts of Victorian entertainment, including I think 398 00:23:05,560 --> 00:23:07,840 my there's two that are favourites for me. 399 00:23:07,840 --> 00:23:11,480 One is electricity. That was, see that was such a 400 00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:14,920 novelty at this point that was put on one of the posters as 401 00:23:14,920 --> 00:23:18,400 something to come and see. And a woman, someone called the 402 00:23:18,400 --> 00:23:23,280 Mysterious Lady and she was a sort of mind reader type act. 403 00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:26,920 So she was a sort of proto Derren Brown in the Victorian 404 00:23:26,920 --> 00:23:29,640 era. So all sorts of interesting, 405 00:23:29,680 --> 00:23:33,000 interesting sort of Victorian entertainment you come and see 406 00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:37,520 in the tunnel. And what kind of inspiration did 407 00:23:37,520 --> 00:23:39,320 people take from this tunnel then? 408 00:23:39,360 --> 00:23:42,000 Did it have a knock on effect elsewhere in other engineering 409 00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:46,840 projects? In terms of tunnelling, one of 410 00:23:46,840 --> 00:23:49,400 the things that we get asked at the museum is are you the 411 00:23:49,400 --> 00:23:51,760 Rotherhithe Tunnel? And we have to explain that the 412 00:23:51,760 --> 00:23:55,080 Thames Tunnel is now part of the Windrush line. 413 00:23:55,080 --> 00:23:57,880 It's actually part of the Overground network and the 414 00:23:57,880 --> 00:24:01,360 Rotherhithe Tunnel came later and is the road tunnel. 415 00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:04,120 But what I think is really interesting about the different 416 00:24:04,120 --> 00:24:10,120 tunnel under the Thames, particularly in London, is they 417 00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:16,960 they took another generation for people to be ready to try to dig 418 00:24:16,960 --> 00:24:20,240 another tunnel onto the Thames. So there's quite a good chunk of 419 00:24:20,240 --> 00:24:24,360 time between the Thames Tunnel being started and finished and 420 00:24:24,360 --> 00:24:26,480 then people looking at the rather high tunnel, the 421 00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:29,480 Greenwich Foot tunnel, the Blackwall Tunnel, they were all 422 00:24:29,480 --> 00:24:32,040 completed within about 15 years of each other. 423 00:24:32,240 --> 00:24:36,480 But it took a good sort of 50 years between the Thames Tunnel 424 00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:39,760 being completed to someone going, OK, I think we, I think 425 00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:42,400 we're ready for this again, because it was my take on it is 426 00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:45,960 that it was such a sort of undertaking and a bit of an 427 00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:50,920 ordeal that it took a long time for the next generation of 428 00:24:50,920 --> 00:24:55,480 tunnels to be dug. Today all tunneling projects 429 00:24:55,960 --> 00:25:01,000 have this that their foundation was laid by Mark Brunel 200 430 00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:03,000 years ago. So the tunnel boring machines 431 00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:07,080 that made Crossrail possible, that are making HS2 possible, 432 00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:10,840 that made the Channel Tunnel possible, that's all a sort of 433 00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:14,960 modern version of Mark Brunel's tunneling shield. 434 00:25:16,320 --> 00:25:17,960 That's a really nice way to to put it. 435 00:25:18,280 --> 00:25:22,480 I remember reading a bit of a stat on a press release that we 436 00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:27,760 in Britain are leading the tunnelling engineering world and 437 00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:31,520 we have the only apprenticeships who tunnelling on offer. 438 00:25:33,120 --> 00:25:34,480 Go us. There you go. 439 00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:36,440 It's good. It's very important. 440 00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:39,960 We would, if you, I hope that your listeners are after this 441 00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:43,800 thinking, start to notice actually when they go under the 442 00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:46,160 river a little bit more and actually there's sort of 443 00:25:46,160 --> 00:25:49,120 engineering that goes into that. Actually, that's a really good 444 00:25:49,120 --> 00:25:51,280 point. So you're talking about a 445 00:25:51,280 --> 00:25:56,000 Victorian tunnel, which how many trains on the Overground go 446 00:25:56,000 --> 00:25:59,240 through it a day? What about any restoration or 447 00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:02,440 anything that's been going on? Or are we really on borrowed 448 00:26:02,440 --> 00:26:07,040 time? Yeah, I think it is the sort of 449 00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:10,440 last part of the story. So I always think of the sort of 450 00:26:10,440 --> 00:26:13,400 10% of stories being so 3 chunks really. 451 00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:16,960 They're the construction. 1820s to 1843. 452 00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:20,760 There's it sort of shopping arcade and fantasy fairs kind of 453 00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:23,480 time sort of 1843 to the late 1860s. 454 00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:28,560 And then in the 1860s it was sold to the London Metropolitan 455 00:26:28,560 --> 00:26:31,080 Railway. It's got a second light as a 456 00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:33,360 train tunnel. This is this is in the very 457 00:26:33,360 --> 00:26:36,440 early days of the London Underground and steam trains. 458 00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:39,600 And so it was sold to the Metropolitan Railway. 459 00:26:39,600 --> 00:26:42,960 It became the East London Line, which kind of ran from 460 00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:46,400 Whitechapel to New Cross. So it's not a very long line. 461 00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:54,480 And then in 2011 when the East London Line became part of the 462 00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:58,160 Overground, it all connected up and there's and it's now always 463 00:26:58,160 --> 00:27:01,600 the kind of Windrush on me. And I think something like 464 00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:05,840 60,000 people go through it every single day, which is just 465 00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:12,640 a phenomenal amount in terms of restoration in the 1990s. 466 00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:16,800 It was only in the 1990s, sorry, I state that it the tunnel 467 00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:20,920 itself was recognized as a sort of historically important 468 00:27:21,280 --> 00:27:24,440 feature that it's been, it had trains running through it for 469 00:27:24,440 --> 00:27:27,840 over 100 years by that point. But no one has really given it 470 00:27:27,840 --> 00:27:30,120 much thought. And there were plans to put 471 00:27:30,120 --> 00:27:36,600 shotcrete kind of concrete type material over the tunnel, over 472 00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:40,840 Mark Brunel's fantastic tunnel. And it was only at, I think the 473 00:27:40,840 --> 00:27:43,920 engineers were due on site at sort of 8:00 AM on the Monday 474 00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:46,640 morning. And last thing on the Friday, 475 00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:49,840 the minister for Heritage signed a letter saying please don't put 476 00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:52,240 any shotcrete on Mark Brunel's tunnel. 477 00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:56,960 So I think it is shotcreted under the Thames in the section 478 00:27:56,960 --> 00:28:00,800 actually under the water. But the sections of the original 479 00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:03,600 tunnel on the sort of whopping and rather hide side are 480 00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:07,320 protective and you can if you stand up whopping. 481 00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:10,360 If you stand on the platform whopping and look back towards 482 00:28:10,360 --> 00:28:16,040 rather Hive, you can just about see the double arch of Marc 483 00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:19,520 Brunel's original tunnel. I tell you what gave me 484 00:28:19,520 --> 00:28:23,600 goosebumps for 60,000 people a day going through the tunnel and 485 00:28:23,600 --> 00:28:25,560 one of them could be listening to this podcast. 486 00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:29,640 They might be on it now listening to it now. 487 00:28:29,640 --> 00:28:32,840 That would be amazing. If you are, just pop out on 488 00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:34,720 Brother Hype and come and say hi to her. 489 00:28:34,840 --> 00:28:37,560 Well, there you go. What aspect of the tunnel's 490 00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:44,320 history fascinates you most? I just love that it's this story 491 00:28:44,320 --> 00:28:51,240 of adaptability and kind of perseverance and continuing 492 00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:54,560 against all odds because it was such a talented project. 493 00:28:54,960 --> 00:28:59,600 And then it took so much longer than they thought it would and 494 00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:02,200 but they completed it and they managed to make something really 495 00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:04,480 amazing. And unfortunately, both, both 496 00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:08,760 Mark and isn't bad died before before the tunnel was sold to 497 00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:10,360 the railways. They never saw it. 498 00:29:10,360 --> 00:29:14,200 Kind of Second Life, there's a railway tunnel and I wonder how 499 00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:17,720 they would think 200 years later after they started construction 500 00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:22,320 that, oh, it's being used by 60,000 people every single day. 501 00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:26,920 This tunnel has survived and as it's adapted and it's become 502 00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:29,960 something else that's really genuinely useful. 503 00:29:30,600 --> 00:29:33,160 And that's what I sort of love when people come into the museum 504 00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:35,520 and they we ask them how they got there and they're like, oh, 505 00:29:35,520 --> 00:29:38,120 I just got on the Windrush line and from, from white Tupperware, 506 00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:39,800 I'm like, you've been through the tunnel. 507 00:29:40,080 --> 00:29:43,560 You've already been through this fantastic tunnel and now find 508 00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:46,760 out about how it got there. So that's for me, I think is the 509 00:29:46,760 --> 00:29:50,040 story that I think is just so interesting about it. 510 00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:55,240 And what about a particular object or that really tells the 511 00:29:55,240 --> 00:29:58,560 most powerful story? What is the to see other than 512 00:29:58,560 --> 00:30:02,080 the the shield model which I think is absolutely fantastic? 513 00:30:02,120 --> 00:30:04,360 Yeah, I love all the stuff to do with the construction. 514 00:30:04,360 --> 00:30:09,280 I love all the sort of drawings and the models, but I think what 515 00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:13,320 I also think is just so fantastic are these paper peep 516 00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:15,720 shows. And we've got one in our, one in 517 00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:19,000 our collection that and these are things that were sold to 518 00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:23,360 raise money for the construction itself and gave this idea of 519 00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:26,200 what it was meant to look like. And we've got this absolutely 520 00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:28,200 brilliant one, which is quite rare because it's a double 521 00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:32,360 layered Peep Show and the top layer shows you the river. 522 00:30:32,600 --> 00:30:35,240 So it's showing you people on boats and some sort of ships, 523 00:30:35,800 --> 00:30:39,080 but then underneath you can see the tunnel itself. 524 00:30:39,080 --> 00:30:41,320 You can see the people walking through, having their 525 00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:44,960 conversations. And I just, I love that it gives 526 00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:49,200 you the full context of where the tunnel is, that it is under 527 00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:51,800 the river. And sometimes you forget that, 528 00:30:52,280 --> 00:30:55,720 But just, yeah, the amount of kind of energy and effort and 529 00:30:55,720 --> 00:30:59,200 engineering that has to go into taking something for granted. 530 00:30:59,360 --> 00:31:01,000 I think it's quite lovely actually. 531 00:31:02,440 --> 00:31:07,320 Your team are very busy at the moment with the creation of a 532 00:31:07,360 --> 00:31:10,800 brand new exhibit opening on the 12th of September. 533 00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:12,440 Can you tell us a little bit more about that? 534 00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:16,560 Yeah, absolutely. But we're really excited about 535 00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:22,840 this because we wanted to ask the question about how does Mark 536 00:31:22,840 --> 00:31:25,960 Grinnell, born and raised in front, has to leave, which is 537 00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:30,080 the French Revolution end up digging a tunnel in rather highs 538 00:31:30,520 --> 00:31:33,080 in southeast London? How do you get from Rouen in 539 00:31:33,080 --> 00:31:36,960 Normandy to southeast London? And I think that I think that's 540 00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:39,280 such an interesting kind of premise. 541 00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:43,960 And it means that we get to put on display some of our most kind 542 00:31:43,960 --> 00:31:48,520 of beautiful objects. And one of those objects which 543 00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:52,760 absolutely love is a pair of shoe buckles and a silver with 544 00:31:52,760 --> 00:31:55,400 jewels on. And they belonged to Mark 545 00:31:55,560 --> 00:31:59,000 Brunel. And I think they just give such 546 00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:02,520 an indication of his kind of personality and his character 547 00:32:02,800 --> 00:32:05,960 that this man who built this tunnel and this this really 548 00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:09,280 gritty engineering project loved a shiny shoe buckle. 549 00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:13,400 And it also really speaks to his political affiliations because 550 00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:15,440 he was a royalist. It's one of the reasons why he 551 00:32:15,440 --> 00:32:17,920 had to leave France during the revolution. 552 00:32:18,280 --> 00:32:21,920 And the shoe buckles were a sort of sign of his political 553 00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:25,280 affiliation. And I and the fact that we have 554 00:32:25,280 --> 00:32:27,840 those and these tiny little objects can tell such a big 555 00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:29,520 story. I think it's just brilliant. 556 00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:32,120 I'm really excited to share those with with our visitors. 557 00:32:32,400 --> 00:32:34,720 Oh fantastic. You have very kindly shared us 558 00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:38,680 some photos which we will be putting on the show notes in the 559 00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:42,400 video and of course on the transcript page of the website 560 00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:44,320 anyway. But of course, you can go and 561 00:32:44,320 --> 00:32:48,120 see these super shiny buckles with some really wonderful some 562 00:32:48,120 --> 00:32:52,120 of the oldest artifacts in the museum's collection in this 563 00:32:52,120 --> 00:32:56,160 exhibition, which is 12th of September to 15th of December 564 00:32:56,160 --> 00:32:59,160 2025. We've also got some films that 565 00:32:59,160 --> 00:33:04,680 we can enjoy. Yes, we're also doing a series 566 00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:07,960 of film screenings all about the French Revolution. 567 00:33:07,960 --> 00:33:13,440 So we've got Dangerous Liaisons, we've bought, we've got Marie 568 00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:17,320 Antoinette and Napoleon. So that's four weeks, Timber 569 00:33:17,320 --> 00:33:20,640 October every Wednesday. And the brilliant thing about 570 00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:22,960 that is we are screening them in our tunnel shop. 571 00:33:23,400 --> 00:33:27,320 So the big structure that was sunk into the ground that made 572 00:33:27,320 --> 00:33:30,600 the whole thing possible is now our major event space. 573 00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:33,000 And you can come there and you can watch Marie Antoinette or 574 00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:38,040 Napoleon and understand just that amazing story of how did 575 00:33:38,040 --> 00:33:42,280 all these these events happening in a different country end up 576 00:33:42,520 --> 00:33:46,000 with kind of the world's first underwater tunnel in southeast 577 00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:48,080 London. And hopefully you're going to 578 00:33:48,080 --> 00:33:50,440 tell that the love story between Mark and Sophia. 579 00:33:51,840 --> 00:33:54,760 Oh, absolutely, yes. So actually we will be doing 580 00:33:54,760 --> 00:33:58,880 some Valentine's Day events in 2026, all about the love story 581 00:33:58,880 --> 00:34:01,160 between Mark and Sophia. I think that's a whole other 582 00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:03,320 podcast their love. Story, I'm up for that. 583 00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:08,120 All right, Catherine, thank you so much for joining us today. 584 00:34:08,120 --> 00:34:11,480 It just shows you, doesn't it, how important the tennis tunnel 585 00:34:11,480 --> 00:34:14,400 is and we don't really think about it, we just use it. 586 00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:20,639 Exactly. And if any of you lovely 587 00:34:20,639 --> 00:34:25,560 listeners would like to visit the Brunel Museum, then we have 588 00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:28,880 a treat for you. Catherine has kindly set up a 589 00:34:29,120 --> 00:34:32,760 super special discount code where you can use that when you 590 00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:37,719 book your tickets online and get 50% off museum tickets. 591 00:34:38,560 --> 00:34:43,880 Simply go to their website thebrunelmuseum.com and click on 592 00:34:43,920 --> 00:34:49,080 Book Tickets and then enter this super secret code. 593 00:34:49,080 --> 00:34:56,880 Are you ready? LDNHI ST25LD NHIS T25. 594 00:34:57,200 --> 00:34:58,920 I'll put it in the show notes too. 595 00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:03,760 That's all for now, until next time.