1 00:00:12,500 --> 00:00:15,260 You're listening to the London History Podcast. 2 00:00:15,700 --> 00:00:20,220 I am Hazel Baker from londonguidedwalks.co.uk. 3 00:00:21,140 --> 00:00:28,160 Today's episode is Milner Square through a hole in the wall in 4 00:00:28,160 --> 00:00:30,720 Islington, just off the bustle of. 5 00:00:30,760 --> 00:00:34,680 Upper Street, a short walk. From the Emelda Theatre sits A 6 00:00:34,680 --> 00:00:40,680 narrow rectangle of houses called Milner Square, laid out 7 00:00:40,680 --> 00:00:44,480 in the 1840s as part of London's great northward expansion. 8 00:00:44,760 --> 00:00:48,640 It was meant to attract the aspiring middle classes fleeing 9 00:00:48,640 --> 00:00:53,480 the smoke of the city for cleaner Islington Air, The 10 00:00:53,480 --> 00:00:57,120 Milner Gibson family and their architect, Gough and Rimue, 11 00:00:57,480 --> 00:01:01,720 wrapped the square in a single continuous terrace of tall 12 00:01:01,720 --> 00:01:05,400 houses. No grand corner mansions, no 13 00:01:05,400 --> 00:01:09,160 breaks in the facade. Just one pale brick wall. 14 00:01:09,200 --> 00:01:11,760 Turning and. Turning on itself. 15 00:01:12,880 --> 00:01:16,440 By the 20th century, that vision had curdled. 16 00:01:17,000 --> 00:01:21,720 Like so many other London squares, Milner Square had slid 17 00:01:21,760 --> 00:01:27,720 from respectability into multi occupation, rooms let floor by 18 00:01:27,720 --> 00:01:32,280 floor, families sharing toilets, washing strung out over the 19 00:01:32,280 --> 00:01:36,800 garden between the walls. And into the 1950s Barnesbury 20 00:01:36,800 --> 00:01:39,880 and the surrounding streets were written up as some of the worst 21 00:01:39,880 --> 00:01:44,880 slums in London, a world away from the Islington of political 22 00:01:44,880 --> 00:01:49,440 shorthand and £800,000 flats that we know today. 23 00:01:50,080 --> 00:01:53,760 Yet behind the headlines, life. Here was full. 24 00:01:53,760 --> 00:02:00,360 Of work, noise and community. Richford Iron Foundry glowed 25 00:02:00,360 --> 00:02:04,680 with molten metal Nearby, the British Siphon Company made 26 00:02:04,680 --> 00:02:08,560 equipment in Waterloo House. Caledonia had local women 27 00:02:08,560 --> 00:02:12,000 folding greeting cards. Piece work brought home to 28 00:02:12,000 --> 00:02:16,200 cramped front rooms. Children played in the central 29 00:02:16,200 --> 00:02:20,120 garden of the square, dodging washing lines in Tim Baths, 30 00:02:20,280 --> 00:02:23,920 while their parents navigated to London, where no one had very 31 00:02:23,920 --> 00:02:27,880 much but everyone seemed to know everyone else. 32 00:02:28,760 --> 00:02:33,400 In 1972, Islington Council stepped in with a compulsory 33 00:02:33,400 --> 00:02:38,080 purchase order, clearing what was officially unfit tenements 34 00:02:38,240 --> 00:02:41,760 and rehousing families in new estates or even new towns like 35 00:02:41,760 --> 00:02:47,000 Milton Keynes and Stevenage. New flats came with indoor 36 00:02:47,000 --> 00:02:52,400 bathrooms, boilers and central heating, modern comforts that 37 00:02:52,400 --> 00:02:56,400 felt miraculous. But they also came with front 38 00:02:56,400 --> 00:03:00,280 doors that neighbors shut behind them and estates where children 39 00:03:00,280 --> 00:03:04,240 had nowhere safe to play. Meanwhile, as bonds re 40 00:03:04,240 --> 00:03:08,400 gentrified through the late 20th century, Milner Square followed 41 00:03:08,400 --> 00:03:13,000 the now familiar inner London pattern from slum designation to 42 00:03:13,000 --> 00:03:17,600 conservation area, from controlled rents to eye watering 43 00:03:17,600 --> 00:03:21,000 property prices. Compared with prettier 44 00:03:21,000 --> 00:03:24,400 neighbors, Milner Square continues terrace and tight 45 00:03:24,400 --> 00:03:27,480 proportions gives it a slightly severe air. 46 00:03:28,400 --> 00:03:31,880 It's central garden has shifted from a rough and ready 47 00:03:31,880 --> 00:03:35,480 playground shared by working class families to a much more 48 00:03:35,480 --> 00:03:38,440 managed and in part private space. 49 00:03:40,080 --> 00:03:44,000 Unlike many 19th century squares, it never gained the 50 00:03:44,000 --> 00:03:46,160 planned. Church at its centre. 51 00:03:46,960 --> 00:03:51,200 An absence that perhaps made the Tightweber kinship, rather than 52 00:03:51,200 --> 00:03:54,760 formal religion, the real glue of the community. 53 00:03:56,240 --> 00:03:59,960 Into this layered landscape steps writer and screenwriter 54 00:03:59,960 --> 00:04:04,560 Susan Udo, born and brought up in Islington, whose grandparents 55 00:04:04,560 --> 00:04:09,320 moved into Milner Square in the 1930s and whose parents stayed 56 00:04:09,320 --> 00:04:13,280 until the clearances of the early 1970s. 57 00:04:13,840 --> 00:04:18,800 In her 2015 film Through the Hole in the Wall, she walks us 58 00:04:18,800 --> 00:04:22,400 back through Milner's Square, using family memories, 59 00:04:22,680 --> 00:04:26,960 neighbors, voices and evocative objects such as a Tim Bath, a 60 00:04:27,000 --> 00:04:30,920 Russian book factory, tools to open up much bigger questions 61 00:04:30,920 --> 00:04:35,960 about housing, work, class and belonging in 20th century 62 00:04:35,960 --> 00:04:39,320 London. The film has become a powerful 63 00:04:39,320 --> 00:04:42,360 tool for reminiscence and oral history training across the 64 00:04:42,360 --> 00:04:45,960 borough, helping older listeners remember neighborhoods that have 65 00:04:45,960 --> 00:04:48,920 been transformed almost beyond recognition. 66 00:04:49,160 --> 00:04:50,360 Hello, Susan. Welcome. 67 00:04:50,360 --> 00:04:52,280 Thank you for joining. Me today, it's a pleasure. 68 00:04:54,000 --> 00:04:58,360 Now your film really inspired me to think about more about the 69 00:04:58,360 --> 00:05:02,000 everyday people in history, because part of the challenge 70 00:05:02,000 --> 00:05:04,200 really is. When you're. 71 00:05:04,440 --> 00:05:06,600 Thinking about history, a lot of the time you're thinking about 72 00:05:06,680 --> 00:05:11,920 the olden days when things have changed so much in the last 100 73 00:05:11,920 --> 00:05:14,360 years. What was it that prompted you to 74 00:05:14,400 --> 00:05:16,680 create and produce this film in the 1st place? 75 00:05:17,680 --> 00:05:20,560 Oh it. Kind of evolved because when I 76 00:05:20,560 --> 00:05:25,800 had the initial idea, it was a very, very small idea. 77 00:05:25,800 --> 00:05:29,120 I was, I literally went out and bought myself a little Sony 78 00:05:29,240 --> 00:05:35,000 camcorder and the idea was really to talked to my aunt and 79 00:05:35,000 --> 00:05:39,720 uncle who were the sort of older generation of people who'd lived 80 00:05:39,720 --> 00:05:43,280 around Milner Square because of their age really, they were 81 00:05:43,280 --> 00:05:45,920 knocking 80. And I thought, my own parents 82 00:05:45,920 --> 00:05:48,600 are dead. There wasn't going to be a lot 83 00:05:48,600 --> 00:05:50,520 of time left to capture those memories. 84 00:05:51,760 --> 00:05:56,720 And then it kind of grew because I'm fortunate enough to work in, 85 00:05:56,720 --> 00:05:58,840 in a, in the television industry. 86 00:05:58,840 --> 00:06:03,960 So I was talking to a mate who was a director and he said, I'll 87 00:06:03,960 --> 00:06:07,360 direct it for you. And, and actually, he 88 00:06:07,760 --> 00:06:11,160 unfortunately became ill and recommended someone else who was 89 00:06:11,160 --> 00:06:13,680 our director, Chiara Massenet, who's brilliant. 90 00:06:15,360 --> 00:06:18,840 And so it kind of grew because then Chiara came on board and 91 00:06:18,840 --> 00:06:22,080 she said, oh, we need, we need a sound Accordis, we need this. 92 00:06:22,080 --> 00:06:27,840 And, and we had no money, so we applied to the lottery fund, the 93 00:06:27,840 --> 00:06:31,880 history of the element of the lottery fund for a very small 94 00:06:31,880 --> 00:06:34,400 amount of money. Actually, if I'd only known, I 95 00:06:34,400 --> 00:06:38,520 would have got asked for more. And so we ended up, well, all my 96 00:06:38,520 --> 00:06:43,600 kids were brought in as, as kind of runners and my sister did the 97 00:06:43,600 --> 00:06:46,000 foods and my husband was the cab driver. 98 00:06:46,520 --> 00:06:51,080 So it became a family affair and it became it, it grew from being 99 00:06:51,080 --> 00:06:54,640 just my family to other people who'd also lived around Milner 100 00:06:54,640 --> 00:06:58,920 Square. And I suppose I was keen to 101 00:06:58,920 --> 00:07:02,400 capture it for the reason I've said about, you know, those 102 00:07:02,400 --> 00:07:08,360 older people dying off, but also because of the impression people 103 00:07:08,360 --> 00:07:12,480 have of Islington. So it was also because when you 104 00:07:12,640 --> 00:07:15,800 tell people you live in Islington, they have a view, I 105 00:07:15,800 --> 00:07:20,400 guess, from people like Tony Blair and all the film stars we 106 00:07:20,400 --> 00:07:24,200 have living here now that you've got a lot of money, that it's a 107 00:07:24,200 --> 00:07:28,240 very posh area. And so which it is. 108 00:07:28,280 --> 00:07:34,080 But I, I wanted to tell people a bit about the history of it and 109 00:07:34,320 --> 00:07:37,720 what it was like to live in Islington kind of back in the 110 00:07:37,720 --> 00:07:42,200 day before gentrification and before all of that money poured 111 00:07:42,200 --> 00:07:46,440 into the borough. Wow, that's one of the things 112 00:07:46,440 --> 00:07:48,880 that high enough about being a tour guide, especially if I'm 113 00:07:48,880 --> 00:07:50,600 researching something. There I am with my little 114 00:07:50,600 --> 00:07:53,680 clipboard and I'm walking around the streets just trying to get 115 00:07:53,960 --> 00:07:56,680 John very often. I mean, like an old lady, you 116 00:07:56,680 --> 00:07:57,840 know, gentlemen will come and go. 117 00:07:57,840 --> 00:07:59,280 What you doing? You know what you're hovering 118 00:07:59,280 --> 00:08:01,200 around for? I'll say, oh, well, I'm trying 119 00:08:01,200 --> 00:08:03,480 to do this and try. Oh, well, you know, my 120 00:08:03,480 --> 00:08:06,720 generation, my mother, you know, she was born here and, you know, 121 00:08:06,720 --> 00:08:09,280 and you're talking about how they felt like they needed to 122 00:08:09,280 --> 00:08:12,040 click between the steps of the house every day. 123 00:08:12,080 --> 00:08:15,280 You know all that, you know, it was your, it was your 124 00:08:15,280 --> 00:08:18,320 responsibility that the bit of the pavement in front of the 125 00:08:18,320 --> 00:08:22,360 house and all these unwritten rules that we, we assume the 126 00:08:22,360 --> 00:08:25,240 council's going to do nowadays. So it was actually part of that, 127 00:08:25,240 --> 00:08:28,240 the community holding themselves together in the council. 128 00:08:28,480 --> 00:08:31,120 Absolutely. Because in, in the houses in 129 00:08:31,120 --> 00:08:35,799 Milner Square, which I suppose if you were to describe them at 130 00:08:35,799 --> 00:08:39,640 the time I lived there in the, I was born there in the 50s. 131 00:08:39,640 --> 00:08:43,120 But my, my aunt and uncle who were in the film were in the 132 00:08:43,120 --> 00:08:46,600 30s. They were very much tenements in 133 00:08:46,600 --> 00:08:49,560 that they weren't even self-contained flats. 134 00:08:49,560 --> 00:08:54,520 They were rooms. So with our place for instance, 135 00:08:54,520 --> 00:08:59,040 and we were my mum and dad and four kids, we were on the 1st 136 00:08:59,040 --> 00:09:02,720 and 2nd floor, but they weren't, it wasn't a contained flat. 137 00:09:02,720 --> 00:09:06,000 You went to the first floor. There were no locks on the door. 138 00:09:06,040 --> 00:09:08,080 Anybody could have come into our flat. 139 00:09:08,680 --> 00:09:11,480 Yeah, I call it a flat and it just went into our rooms and 140 00:09:11,480 --> 00:09:14,160 then you went up and on the half landing. 141 00:09:14,320 --> 00:09:19,840 Eventually, I think I was about 12 when my dad turned this 142 00:09:19,880 --> 00:09:24,320 rubbish room into a bathroom. Up till then we'd had a tin bath 143 00:09:24,320 --> 00:09:28,240 like most people and then up to the rest to the, to the next 144 00:09:28,240 --> 00:09:32,480 floor up and there were three bedrooms, which is where you 145 00:09:32,480 --> 00:09:35,360 know, we all, we all slept. But again, there were no locks 146 00:09:35,360 --> 00:09:37,440 on the doors. It wasn't self-contained. 147 00:09:38,000 --> 00:09:44,680 So and there was no real heating until I was in my teenage years. 148 00:09:44,800 --> 00:09:48,680 You know, we, we've got gas fires put in, but it was 2 coal 149 00:09:48,680 --> 00:09:51,680 fires basically and nothing in the bedroom. 150 00:09:51,680 --> 00:09:56,640 So it was that evening of being very old very often and there 151 00:09:56,640 --> 00:09:59,000 was, you know, there weren't bathrooms. 152 00:09:59,000 --> 00:10:01,400 There was shared loose very often. 153 00:10:01,880 --> 00:10:07,320 I think in the film Margaret talks about sharing there's one 154 00:10:07,320 --> 00:10:09,800 toilet in the whole house with four families. 155 00:10:10,200 --> 00:10:15,720 So they were very much kind of merging on slum tenements, which 156 00:10:15,720 --> 00:10:20,160 again, is something people don't really associate Islington with. 157 00:10:20,640 --> 00:10:24,640 So it was, it wasn't really saying poor me, poor me, because 158 00:10:24,680 --> 00:10:27,240 the other thing that comes through on the film is that 159 00:10:27,920 --> 00:10:30,960 although everybody was very poor, they were very happy. 160 00:10:31,840 --> 00:10:35,880 So it wasn't people saying that they had a terrible life. 161 00:10:35,880 --> 00:10:38,160 They didn't. I mean, you know, there wasn't a 162 00:10:38,160 --> 00:10:40,400 lot of money. There wasn't a lot of luxuries 163 00:10:40,400 --> 00:10:43,920 or food, but it it was people were very happy in that 164 00:10:43,920 --> 00:10:47,720 community and it was getting across that kind of community 165 00:10:47,720 --> 00:10:52,400 which sadly I think doesn't exist to the same degree these 166 00:10:52,400 --> 00:10:56,240 days. No, no, I've concluded that. 167 00:10:56,400 --> 00:11:00,080 But one other thing I think you talk about kind of lead on is 168 00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:03,280 that better use of space. When the Council stepped in with 169 00:11:03,280 --> 00:11:07,000 the commodity repurchase in 72, you know, they they changed it 170 00:11:07,000 --> 00:11:09,080 all but the space used beforehand. 171 00:11:09,120 --> 00:11:13,440 And also if we think about who's in and out of that space, so 172 00:11:13,440 --> 00:11:16,040 mum's at home. So we're thinking shared toilet 173 00:11:16,040 --> 00:11:18,400 through all the mums. You've got the kids either at 174 00:11:18,400 --> 00:11:21,920 school or playing in the square. And I think one of the gentlemen 175 00:11:21,920 --> 00:11:24,920 mentioned about all the boys not bothering going back to spend 176 00:11:24,920 --> 00:11:27,200 the pennies. Unfortunately, my brother, yes. 177 00:11:28,960 --> 00:11:32,840 That's that's. You man, think of that. 178 00:11:33,120 --> 00:11:34,600 You can imagine it. Aren't you going old? 179 00:11:34,760 --> 00:11:36,600 Go in hat. Side and then mum will ask me to 180 00:11:36,600 --> 00:11:38,040 do something. George should make me wipe my 181 00:11:38,040 --> 00:11:41,200 face or I can just stay here outside with my friends and, you 182 00:11:41,200 --> 00:11:43,360 know, fix it all. But it's a safe space for the 183 00:11:43,360 --> 00:11:45,880 kids to play as well. And then of course the. 184 00:11:46,080 --> 00:11:49,360 And the men were at work. So you've got three different 185 00:11:49,480 --> 00:11:53,120 groups of people being able to coexist because they're able to 186 00:11:53,120 --> 00:11:56,000 move around. Yeah, I, I mean, thank God for 187 00:11:56,000 --> 00:12:01,320 that garden area in the middle of the square because, you know, 188 00:12:02,360 --> 00:12:07,400 I just think women of that generation were amazing when I 189 00:12:07,400 --> 00:12:11,720 think of my own mum, you know, with four kids and before the 190 00:12:11,720 --> 00:12:15,040 White Revolution. So you didn't have a washing 191 00:12:15,040 --> 00:12:18,600 machine and, you know, you didn't have a fridge. 192 00:12:18,960 --> 00:12:23,480 And so nappies were washed by hand and put through the mangle 193 00:12:23,480 --> 00:12:26,000 and hung out. And my mum would go early 194 00:12:26,000 --> 00:12:29,680 morning cleaning jobs and then she'd have jobs she did at home 195 00:12:29,680 --> 00:12:32,840 so that, you know, she could be there for the kids. 196 00:12:33,720 --> 00:12:37,480 So it was kind of 24/7 because you're trying to keep the house 197 00:12:37,480 --> 00:12:41,120 going as well and making, you know, food stretch. 198 00:12:41,600 --> 00:12:46,000 My dad was a plasterer, but I mean, these days plasterers and 199 00:12:46,000 --> 00:12:50,240 a bloody fortune. Sorry for the language, but 200 00:12:50,240 --> 00:12:54,560 they, they do good luck to them. But back in my dad's day, they 201 00:12:54,560 --> 00:12:57,280 didn't. And very often, you know, he was 202 00:12:57,320 --> 00:13:00,200 especially in the winter months to be was out of work. 203 00:13:00,200 --> 00:13:04,600 So and there was no unemployment benefit for if you were. 204 00:13:05,280 --> 00:13:10,160 So it was trying to kind of make a little go a long way. 205 00:13:10,160 --> 00:13:15,440 And so and that generally fell on the women you know who 206 00:13:15,600 --> 00:13:20,080 performed miracles, really. Yeah, I wonder what would have 207 00:13:20,080 --> 00:13:23,080 happened with all the the children if there hadn't been 208 00:13:23,080 --> 00:13:25,600 the square, because there had been a church originally and 209 00:13:25,600 --> 00:13:28,160 funded for that. Indeed, there had been, which is 210 00:13:28,160 --> 00:13:31,480 amazing to imagine. It was a Chapel of ease. 211 00:13:31,600 --> 00:13:36,200 So because obviously the Saint Mary's Church, which was the the 212 00:13:36,200 --> 00:13:40,640 one on Upper Street in Islington where my parents got married, my 213 00:13:40,640 --> 00:13:44,360 aunts and uncles got married. I was christened there and, and, 214 00:13:44,360 --> 00:13:48,560 and must have had a full congregation in the, IT was, it 215 00:13:48,560 --> 00:13:51,880 must have been the square was built in the 1840s. 216 00:13:51,880 --> 00:13:56,560 So at that time, I guess mid 19th century, people went to 217 00:13:56,560 --> 00:13:58,440 church in their, in their numbers. 218 00:13:58,440 --> 00:14:02,680 But that Chapel wasn't built in the end, but the square. 219 00:14:03,360 --> 00:14:07,120 And it's funny going back there now because it seems so small, 220 00:14:07,640 --> 00:14:13,040 but at the time it, it seemed huge and it was divided into 221 00:14:13,040 --> 00:14:14,840 areas. So you had the swings and you 222 00:14:14,840 --> 00:14:18,200 had the seated part in the middle and you had a grass area 223 00:14:18,200 --> 00:14:21,440 at the end. And so people were, you know, 224 00:14:21,440 --> 00:14:25,160 playing football, hanging out with friends, doing hopscotch, 225 00:14:25,160 --> 00:14:29,360 playing cannon, you know, Bulldog or any of those other 226 00:14:29,360 --> 00:14:32,720 games that, that. And it was, it was the, you 227 00:14:32,720 --> 00:14:35,320 know, the whole square, all the kids from the square. 228 00:14:35,320 --> 00:14:39,280 So it was a, a large number. You never, you were never short 229 00:14:39,280 --> 00:14:43,720 of somebody to play with. Yeah, what a great feeling that 230 00:14:43,720 --> 00:14:45,280 would be. Just out in the world. 231 00:14:45,280 --> 00:14:48,360 You're not free, but you know that you're going to be meeting 232 00:14:48,360 --> 00:14:50,560 routine friends there. I think there's something that 233 00:14:50,560 --> 00:14:53,880 new you mentioned on in the film and you just touched on it about 234 00:14:53,880 --> 00:14:56,040 this, you know, community. I think it was your uncle was 235 00:14:56,040 --> 00:15:00,040 talking about having parties in the house fitting 30 or 40 236 00:15:00,040 --> 00:15:02,720 people there. And that kind of links my 237 00:15:02,720 --> 00:15:04,960 thoughts with when you were mentioning about the community 238 00:15:05,080 --> 00:15:08,000 at the church, you know, all the weddings and all the Christians. 239 00:15:08,240 --> 00:15:12,000 So assuming they wouldn't need the church hall, they'd come 240 00:15:12,000 --> 00:15:13,760 back. To the square where. 241 00:15:13,760 --> 00:15:16,120 All the. Extended family and and and you 242 00:15:16,120 --> 00:15:18,760 know, neighbors straight friends were and and had a little bit of 243 00:15:18,760 --> 00:15:21,440 a needs up there well. Very often, yeah, I think there 244 00:15:21,440 --> 00:15:25,240 were a couple of I remember my Aunt Pat, who's in the film. 245 00:15:25,240 --> 00:15:27,760 I was her bridesmaids and I remember her wedding. 246 00:15:27,760 --> 00:15:33,200 I was about 5:00, but that that was in in some kind of church 247 00:15:33,200 --> 00:15:35,880 all I think. But very often, especially at 248 00:15:35,880 --> 00:15:39,920 Christmas time or those occasions, there would be huge 249 00:15:39,920 --> 00:15:44,480 numbers of people there and it would be music and playing cards 250 00:15:44,480 --> 00:15:51,000 and and kids, you know, up all hours nicking bits of alcoholic 251 00:15:51,000 --> 00:15:53,160 drinks from the table when nobody was looking. 252 00:15:53,160 --> 00:15:56,720 It's that kind of thing. And then on Boxing Day, you 253 00:15:56,720 --> 00:15:59,920 know, if the Arsenal had to know how much, we'd all go to the 254 00:15:59,920 --> 00:16:03,760 Arsenal. And yes, so it was, yeah, it was 255 00:16:03,760 --> 00:16:06,680 great, great times. Or. 256 00:16:07,360 --> 00:16:10,520 And you call the film through the hole in the wall. 257 00:16:11,000 --> 00:16:12,920 Yeah. You're explained to the 258 00:16:12,920 --> 00:16:17,880 listeners what that mean. Yeah, there was a literally a 259 00:16:17,880 --> 00:16:23,280 kind of a long alleyway that was built between two of the houses 260 00:16:23,280 --> 00:16:28,720 that linked Milner Square with Almeida St. on the other side. 261 00:16:28,720 --> 00:16:33,120 And it was a cut through. And at that time it's it's no 262 00:16:33,120 --> 00:16:37,160 longer there actually. And it the alleyway is there, 263 00:16:37,160 --> 00:16:42,160 but they used to be a front door halfway down the alleyway. 264 00:16:42,160 --> 00:16:44,400 So somebody's front door was there. 265 00:16:44,400 --> 00:16:48,520 I mean, in this black space, A people I know, actually. 266 00:16:48,920 --> 00:16:53,840 And and it was just a rather forbidding kind of place because 267 00:16:53,840 --> 00:16:56,960 it was so dark. So you'd go, I'd literally go up 268 00:16:57,240 --> 00:17:00,760 if it was night time to, if I was out with friends, I'd, I'd 269 00:17:00,760 --> 00:17:03,000 have to think twice about going home that way. 270 00:17:03,200 --> 00:17:07,359 But I'd get up to the end of the, the alleyway in Almeda St. 271 00:17:07,359 --> 00:17:10,760 and literally run through it till you get to the other side. 272 00:17:10,760 --> 00:17:14,599 And there's a sense of safety because it's what you know, and 273 00:17:14,599 --> 00:17:17,359 you know, all the people in it. And I think it was something 274 00:17:17,359 --> 00:17:21,319 else that in a way my uncle touched on in the film that, 275 00:17:21,319 --> 00:17:25,079 that the world we lived in was very small. 276 00:17:25,079 --> 00:17:27,920 I think, you know, nobody owned a car. 277 00:17:29,480 --> 00:17:33,120 We didn't really have that many holidays because there wasn't 278 00:17:33,160 --> 00:17:37,480 much money. And so the world you inhabited 279 00:17:37,480 --> 00:17:41,160 was much smaller than the one that generally people have these 280 00:17:41,160 --> 00:17:44,280 days. So it was very much concentrated 281 00:17:44,320 --> 00:17:48,000 on the square and the walk to school. 282 00:17:48,360 --> 00:17:51,840 You know, I, I went to, to Laycock School, which you know, 283 00:17:51,840 --> 00:17:55,120 is, is a 10 minute walk away along Liverpool Road. 284 00:17:55,120 --> 00:18:00,040 And that was the kind of journey that you, you did regularly, but 285 00:18:00,040 --> 00:18:04,440 there weren't that many others. I, I had a dodgy eye when I was 286 00:18:04,440 --> 00:18:06,720 a kid. And I remember going from on the 287 00:18:06,840 --> 00:18:10,600 thing that on the bus to Moorefield's Eye Hospital in, in 288 00:18:10,600 --> 00:18:14,400 City Road. And that was exotic. 289 00:18:14,440 --> 00:18:18,360 And I remember being on the top. We sat on the top of the bus and 290 00:18:18,360 --> 00:18:23,040 it went over the canal and it was like, Oh my God, it was like 291 00:18:23,040 --> 00:18:26,880 going to the seaside, you know, a stretch of water. 292 00:18:27,400 --> 00:18:31,360 So I think that, you know, our, our kind of experiences were, 293 00:18:31,600 --> 00:18:36,920 were ridiculously kind of few in comparison with what most kids 294 00:18:36,920 --> 00:18:41,640 have these days. I'm looking back now because 295 00:18:41,640 --> 00:18:45,000 it's it's been what, 10 years since it launched. 296 00:18:45,000 --> 00:18:48,800 What are your fondest memories from the making of film? 297 00:18:48,800 --> 00:18:57,440 From making the film, I think it was my aunt who since died on 298 00:18:57,440 --> 00:19:04,200 film and my uncle who's very poorly is on the film and Doris 299 00:19:04,200 --> 00:19:09,200 who was a neighbor whose kids I used to play with and when I was 300 00:19:09,320 --> 00:19:13,920 a kid has since died. So I think I feel very pleased 301 00:19:13,920 --> 00:19:18,080 that I was able to kind of capture that a bit of their 302 00:19:18,080 --> 00:19:21,600 stories really. And and because, you know, as 303 00:19:21,600 --> 00:19:27,920 you say said before, that kind of sense of oral history that, 304 00:19:27,960 --> 00:19:33,240 you know, we, you know, we stand to lose a lot of that and these 305 00:19:33,240 --> 00:19:37,600 things are done. I mean, someone said to me after 306 00:19:37,600 --> 00:19:39,640 I did this one or what's the next one you're going to do? 307 00:19:39,640 --> 00:19:43,080 And it's like, Oh my God, because it was like we were 308 00:19:43,080 --> 00:19:46,720 filming with octogenarians in 85° heat. 309 00:19:46,720 --> 00:19:52,480 It was it's not easy. And, and we had to beg, steal 310 00:19:52,480 --> 00:19:57,080 and borrow, you know, people were so generous and gave the, 311 00:19:57,360 --> 00:20:00,600 the editor work for nothing, the director work for nothing. 312 00:20:00,600 --> 00:20:04,880 You know, people were brilliant because we had a, a proper ITV 313 00:20:04,880 --> 00:20:09,720 who I, I work for this, all the loan, just all the equipment. 314 00:20:09,720 --> 00:20:14,320 We had professional equipment. The screen on the green in 315 00:20:14,320 --> 00:20:17,280 Islington. You know, we, we, we had our 316 00:20:17,280 --> 00:20:22,240 premiere there, the recording studio that's on Upper Street. 317 00:20:22,520 --> 00:20:26,600 Where I think Kylie had been the day before recording her 318 00:20:26,600 --> 00:20:29,720 Christmas song. I went in there and they gave us 319 00:20:29,720 --> 00:20:34,800 a studio to do some voice over. You know, people were fantastic. 320 00:20:34,800 --> 00:20:39,080 But it's like a full time job doing it. 321 00:20:39,440 --> 00:20:43,600 But you know, it is it is something I'm very proud of and 322 00:20:43,600 --> 00:20:48,000 I'm very glad I did. Yeah, you know, talking about, 323 00:20:48,000 --> 00:20:51,040 you know, sounds like you built your own community during this 324 00:20:51,040 --> 00:20:54,040 project. Well, it was interesting going 325 00:20:54,040 --> 00:20:57,680 back to Milner Square as well. So the thing when you get 326 00:20:57,680 --> 00:21:02,200 lottery funding is that there are various things that you have 327 00:21:02,200 --> 00:21:06,320 to comply with. And I'm one of those was 328 00:21:06,320 --> 00:21:10,240 involving people who lived in Milner Square now, none of whom 329 00:21:10,240 --> 00:21:14,920 I knew and, and, and other groups interested groups. 330 00:21:14,920 --> 00:21:19,680 So we ended up as quite a weird band in the end because we had 331 00:21:19,680 --> 00:21:23,880 Age UK involved, we had the Veterans Association involved 332 00:21:24,440 --> 00:21:31,160 and I put on an event at the Islington Town Hall and we 333 00:21:31,160 --> 00:21:34,880 leafleted Milner Square and asked people to come along. 334 00:21:35,520 --> 00:21:39,480 And the current residents, I mean, many of them were 335 00:21:39,480 --> 00:21:43,880 brilliant because they allowed us access to their homes. 336 00:21:44,520 --> 00:21:48,640 Now, you know, without that, there would have been no kind of 337 00:21:48,640 --> 00:21:54,000 comparison for us to make. So yeah, we had, there were lots 338 00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:57,920 of people who I was very privileged to kind of work with 339 00:21:57,920 --> 00:22:00,960 on it. And one of them was actually 340 00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:04,960 Julie Myers from the Islington History Museum, local History 341 00:22:04,960 --> 00:22:07,240 Museum. And they were brilliant because 342 00:22:07,240 --> 00:22:11,720 we had use of their archive. And that was fantastic going 343 00:22:11,720 --> 00:22:15,360 through the archive and seeing lots of old photographs of 344 00:22:15,360 --> 00:22:20,000 Islington and, and I think our stuff is now in there as as part 345 00:22:20,080 --> 00:22:25,200 of their archive. So yeah, it was, it was a great 346 00:22:25,200 --> 00:22:27,800 experience. Tiring, but great. 347 00:22:30,120 --> 00:22:33,040 And of all the things that subjects that you covered, what 348 00:22:33,040 --> 00:22:37,360 was the thing that you were surprised about the most? 349 00:22:38,320 --> 00:22:42,400 I don't, I don't think I was surprised by people's responses 350 00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:47,080 in terms of the, the, the fact that that growing up there was a 351 00:22:47,080 --> 00:22:53,000 very happy experience because I think that everybody loves that 352 00:22:53,000 --> 00:22:56,520 sense of community and, and safety. 353 00:22:56,640 --> 00:23:00,640 Really, I think especially now in what's the kind of fairly 354 00:23:00,640 --> 00:23:05,160 scary world, to have that sense that there were always people 355 00:23:05,440 --> 00:23:10,160 looking out for you. So I, I wasn't surprised by 356 00:23:10,160 --> 00:23:12,000 that. I suppose some of the individual 357 00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:16,880 stories, I mean, Brian, who I didn't know growing up, he's a 358 00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:19,680 bit older than me. My brother, my oldest brother 359 00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:26,400 knew him, but he'd had a very poor childhood and sadly his dad 360 00:23:26,920 --> 00:23:31,240 died before Brian, a couple of months before Brian was born. 361 00:23:31,240 --> 00:23:36,960 So he never knew his dad and, and his step dad, I think wasn't 362 00:23:36,960 --> 00:23:41,720 that keen on, you know, the, the kids and he'd had a really hard 363 00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:45,920 time. So that was a bit of an eye out 364 00:23:45,920 --> 00:23:49,680 in a really because I mean, although we had no money, we had 365 00:23:49,760 --> 00:23:52,240 a loving family, extended family. 366 00:23:52,240 --> 00:23:56,600 So when we had no money, my nan who ran a Christmas club, you 367 00:23:56,600 --> 00:24:01,200 know, where my aunts and my mum would put in two and six a week 368 00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:03,480 and you know, then you'd have food for Christmas. 369 00:24:03,760 --> 00:24:07,720 So but also use that as some money you could borrow during 370 00:24:07,720 --> 00:24:10,800 the year and you could pay it back or so hard. 371 00:24:10,920 --> 00:24:13,840 Nobody really went to a bank. We didn't have bank accounts. 372 00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:19,960 But Brian's was very poor and that kind of surprised me 373 00:24:19,960 --> 00:24:23,440 because you know, he we lived in that same environment. 374 00:24:23,920 --> 00:24:28,360 And Margaret who lives then still Margaret Crown who was in 375 00:24:28,360 --> 00:24:34,680 the film has lived there all her life and she now lives on a a 376 00:24:34,680 --> 00:24:39,080 block that was built, I think it was built in the 70s after the 377 00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:43,720 council took over Milner Square and was on the site of the old 378 00:24:43,720 --> 00:24:48,880 Richmond Foundry. She has only ever known Milner 379 00:24:48,880 --> 00:24:53,320 Square and has and her dad died there. 380 00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:55,840 And that was quite a shocking story as well. 381 00:24:55,840 --> 00:24:59,480 The fact that somebody has a heart attack, you run to the 382 00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:02,840 doctor and the doctor won't come, you know, and you go to 383 00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:06,520 the place. It's like that life was the 384 00:25:06,520 --> 00:25:11,840 value on it was so much less. I think that came through Brian 385 00:25:11,840 --> 00:25:17,560 and Margaret's stories, and I think she's making the film in a 386 00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:19,640 way. It's even though she says she 387 00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:21,320 walks through the square every day. 388 00:25:21,320 --> 00:25:26,600 It made her relooked, if you like and remember what it was 389 00:25:26,600 --> 00:25:28,760 like. And when her dad died, for 390 00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:32,120 instance, they had two floors. There were three children and 391 00:25:32,120 --> 00:25:35,440 and her parents and they rented rooms on two floors. 392 00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:38,360 But when her dad died, they had no income, there was no money. 393 00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:45,080 So they had to, they had to give up one of the floors. 394 00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:50,120 And they were all three girls and, and her mum, I mean they 395 00:25:50,120 --> 00:25:55,040 slept 2 in the bed in, in, you know, the 2 rooms upstairs that 396 00:25:55,040 --> 00:25:57,600 was the kitchen, the living room and so on. 397 00:25:58,080 --> 00:26:03,840 So it was those kinds of hardships that continued into a 398 00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:07,360 time when you just thought that things were better. 399 00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:10,880 Well, quality of life is so much different now, isn't it? 400 00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:13,120 You know children expect their. Their own room let. 401 00:26:13,120 --> 00:26:17,200 Alone their own bed my mum was talking about Yes exactly yeah, 402 00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:21,960 not even like yeah my mum talk about sharing the one bedroom 403 00:26:21,960 --> 00:26:24,600 that she and her sister shared and shared the same brand and 404 00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:25,880 you. Know that was just. 405 00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:28,840 Your inquiries. I think until I left home I'd 406 00:26:28,840 --> 00:26:32,480 never had my own bedroom. I mean, I was either, you know, 407 00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:36,640 I was in with my brother when we were little, then my sister, and 408 00:26:36,640 --> 00:26:39,840 then when my eldest brother got married and he came to live with 409 00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:43,920 us temporarily and my parents gave him their bed. 410 00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:47,440 And so at one point, at the other bedroom, there were my 411 00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:52,640 parents, my brother and me, you know, just in one bedroom. 412 00:26:52,640 --> 00:26:57,280 So, you know, no, it was kind of par for the course. 413 00:26:57,280 --> 00:27:02,680 So you wouldn't think of yourself as deprived or anything 414 00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:04,600 like that. It was just, that's just what 415 00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:06,720 happened. So yeah. 416 00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:11,400 Some of the stories like Rhinos, I was surprised about it. 417 00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:14,360 It was also heartwarming it about the practicality of the 418 00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:18,720 the fathers, especially during wartime, and strengthening the 419 00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:20,720 house and all the family could be together. 420 00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:25,040 Yeah, yeah. So that was my granddad to my 421 00:27:25,040 --> 00:27:29,160 aunt remembers him putting true Trump's in. 422 00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:32,520 He was quite resourceful. Was my grandfather putting tree 423 00:27:32,520 --> 00:27:36,280 trunks in the living room? I mean, I'm not sure how 424 00:27:36,280 --> 00:27:38,880 effective they would have been, to be honest with you, because I 425 00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:42,440 think the old Latham plaster ceilings probably would have 426 00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:45,840 caved in pretty quickly. But yeah, trying to prop up the 427 00:27:45,840 --> 00:27:50,080 ceilings and having the kids there so they didn't go off. 428 00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:53,960 They weren't evacuated and they they stayed in the square. 429 00:27:54,360 --> 00:27:57,720 And I know people had very difficult decisions to make on 430 00:27:57,720 --> 00:28:01,120 that time and whether we'd catch our kids around you or not. 431 00:28:01,120 --> 00:28:05,600 But fortunately they were safe. But there was a lot of bombing 432 00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:10,680 in and around that area. And as my uncle says in the film 433 00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:14,440 that, you know, you turned up for school sometimes and kids 434 00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:19,360 didn't arrive. So yeah, it was, it was an area 435 00:28:19,360 --> 00:28:24,040 that kind of then got rebuilt in certain areas. 436 00:28:24,040 --> 00:28:28,800 And I think there was a very old looking head of planning at 437 00:28:28,800 --> 00:28:33,200 Islington Council at that time. Well, not during the war, but 438 00:28:33,200 --> 00:28:36,640 after the war and leading up to the council purchasing Milner 439 00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:44,240 Square, who didn't opt for the solutions that a lot of other 440 00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:48,000 London boroughs that had been bombed had taken, which was to 441 00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:52,160 build high rise blocks of flats. There were very few flats. 442 00:28:52,160 --> 00:28:55,920 I mean, if you look at Islington now, there are very high rise 443 00:28:55,920 --> 00:28:58,920 blocks, if any. I mean you'd barely call them 444 00:28:58,920 --> 00:29:03,000 high rise. And so the, the interesting 445 00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:08,680 thing about Milner Square, or all the squares really, is that 446 00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:14,200 they were very mixed because the, the Islington Council 447 00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:19,520 wanted to keep council tenants in the street properties rather 448 00:29:19,520 --> 00:29:24,680 than in these big high rises. So, so still today you have 449 00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:29,040 squares that are very mixed in terms of being privately owned 450 00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:34,520 housing association and council. So the, the, the, you know, the 451 00:29:34,520 --> 00:29:37,680 geographic is a very mixed demographic in Islington, living 452 00:29:37,680 --> 00:29:43,320 cheek by jowl. Yeah, I do think it was under 453 00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:46,840 the pressure post war with a big housing shortage. 454 00:29:47,320 --> 00:29:49,360 Yeah, the. Easiest thing to do was to knock 455 00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:52,000 up a high rise and just get everybody into that. 456 00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:55,240 And so, yeah, but building these perhaps that often look like 457 00:29:55,240 --> 00:29:59,800 houses as well, and keeping that, that, that small square 458 00:29:59,800 --> 00:30:02,720 nature was a very good idea, I think. 459 00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:06,200 I mean, the square visually has changed a lot, hasn't it? 460 00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:08,160 I'm looking at old photos. It's. 461 00:30:08,640 --> 00:30:12,640 What it looks now? It's, it's a very, it's a very 462 00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:16,680 unusual square. The architects were, were 463 00:30:16,680 --> 00:30:21,960 slightly eccentric, I think. And I think the another example 464 00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:26,840 of, of their work is just down in our media St. towards the end 465 00:30:26,840 --> 00:30:31,760 where the Armida Theatre is now. And it's not, it's not quite 466 00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:36,160 brutal, but it's, it's a very, it's a very unusual kind of 467 00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:40,880 architecture and it's quite a beautiful square now, because 468 00:30:40,880 --> 00:30:44,640 the council, which is still is still the freeholder of that 469 00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:50,800 square, maintain it very well. But after, you know, a, a, a 470 00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:56,480 period of time with them slot people using coal as their main 471 00:30:56,480 --> 00:31:00,560 source of heating. You had the brickwork in Milner 472 00:31:00,560 --> 00:31:06,240 Square was blackened and because of this less than ornate 473 00:31:06,320 --> 00:31:10,680 architecture that, you know, other squares in Islington enjoy 474 00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:13,880 it. It did have a rather foreboding 475 00:31:13,880 --> 00:31:17,120 kind of look to it. So you had the blackened 476 00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:22,160 brickwork and the peeling paint on the doors and so on. 477 00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:27,280 So it, it did look like you'd walked into a kind of Dickensian 478 00:31:27,360 --> 00:31:32,000 film when it nowadays it, it actually looks pretty good, I 479 00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:34,480 think. And, and just an example of, I 480 00:31:34,480 --> 00:31:38,520 mean, a lot of obviously the demographic of Islington became 481 00:31:38,880 --> 00:31:41,560 partly as it is because of people buying under the right to 482 00:31:41,560 --> 00:31:46,600 buy under Thatcher. So you, you Milma Square is very 483 00:31:46,600 --> 00:31:52,240 like that where you have private flats and council flats and it's 484 00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:56,080 a, it's a very mixed area. And visually it's very 485 00:31:56,080 --> 00:31:58,400 different. They like Lonsdale Square, your 486 00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:02,240 next door neighbor in terms of, but I think also it the the 487 00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:05,160 scale of things, they're not just the pretty architecture. 488 00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:07,520 You've got a lot planar architecture, but also it's. 489 00:32:07,520 --> 00:32:08,840 Nothing. A lozenge. 490 00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:13,760 Rather than a square, isn't it? It's long and thin, and I 491 00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:16,120 suppose that and imagine that with the church. 492 00:32:16,120 --> 00:32:18,160 In as well. That wouldn't have got any lots. 493 00:32:18,200 --> 00:32:21,480 Of it, yes, yes, it would have been quite a sight. 494 00:32:21,720 --> 00:32:24,480 Yeah, it is a bit like that. And I think it's the height of 495 00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:29,280 the buildings that accentuates that because it is it's there 496 00:32:29,280 --> 00:32:31,360 are basements and then four floors. 497 00:32:31,360 --> 00:32:35,680 So it's that they're very tall buildings and because the upper 498 00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:39,760 floors, the first floor in particular would have been where 499 00:32:39,760 --> 00:32:41,480 the. The drawing room. 500 00:32:41,560 --> 00:32:45,480 Would have been so the ceilings were incredibly high with, you 501 00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:47,840 know, marble fireplaces and cornices. 502 00:32:47,840 --> 00:32:51,360 And so it was a very, very tall building. 503 00:32:51,720 --> 00:32:55,160 And like, as you say, with Lonsdale squares is a Gothic 504 00:32:55,160 --> 00:32:59,320 architecture. Gibson Square built not that far 505 00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:04,080 away in time to Milner Square. And in fact, some of the 506 00:33:04,080 --> 00:33:08,680 material we used in the documentary was actually taken 507 00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:12,800 from an excellent six part series that the BBC did back in 508 00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:16,960 the 1960s called Six Sides of the Square. 509 00:33:17,360 --> 00:33:20,680 I'd recommend anyone to check it out if you can in an archive. 510 00:33:22,120 --> 00:33:29,080 And it was about the the emerging kind of gentrification 511 00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:35,160 of places like Islington, where it showed you solicitors and 512 00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:38,640 doctors moving in and cleaning out their cornices and so on. 513 00:33:39,120 --> 00:33:44,280 And down in the basement next door would be some little old 514 00:33:44,280 --> 00:33:48,000 lady with no heating living in abject poverty. 515 00:33:48,240 --> 00:33:50,200 So. And it covered a different 516 00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:55,240 subject to each each episode. But that was, that was, yeah, a 517 00:33:55,240 --> 00:33:59,440 brilliant piece of documentary footage that we drew from for 518 00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:02,920 hours. I'll link the six sides of the 519 00:34:02,920 --> 00:34:05,400 square as well. It's on the BBC Archive website 520 00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:07,560 I think. Still they haven't moved it. 521 00:34:07,840 --> 00:34:11,880 They'll be able to get a better idea of what real London was. 522 00:34:11,880 --> 00:34:20,000 Like I suppose it's that sense of residential being kind of 523 00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:25,960 cheap by jowl with industry, which we had in with the iron 524 00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:30,880 foundry, but also with to the well, it was 1 factory, but at 525 00:34:30,880 --> 00:34:33,040 one time it was the siphon factory. 526 00:34:33,040 --> 00:34:36,159 You remember like James Bock millions whiskey and soda or 527 00:34:36,159 --> 00:34:37,800 whatever. Yeah. 528 00:34:38,239 --> 00:34:40,120 And Cardonia is why wasn't it a greeting? 529 00:34:40,120 --> 00:34:45,560 Card and in fact, the nieces of the guy who owned the Cardonia 530 00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:49,560 were the ones who gave us the footage of the women that were 531 00:34:49,560 --> 00:34:55,360 inside May folding the the cards was and and a number of people, 532 00:34:55,520 --> 00:35:00,880 women mainly or probably exclusively from the square who 533 00:35:00,880 --> 00:35:05,800 worked in factory industries. At least you know to earn money 534 00:35:05,840 --> 00:35:08,240 again. And bringing work home with them 535 00:35:08,240 --> 00:35:10,800 as well. Oh yeah, I remember my mum doing 536 00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:14,400 padded hangers and that you know, and something with loads 537 00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:18,000 of glister. I remember that it was really 538 00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:21,200 different homework to, yeah, just to kind of try and 539 00:35:21,200 --> 00:35:25,640 supplement your income and whilst juggling kids because it 540 00:35:25,640 --> 00:35:29,640 was your extended family again who looked after your kids if 541 00:35:29,640 --> 00:35:33,160 you worked. So that was the other beauty I 542 00:35:33,160 --> 00:35:38,080 guess for having that set up round, well in any community but 543 00:35:38,080 --> 00:35:39,760 round Mona Square at that time. Anthony. 544 00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:44,280 Yourself, you said you were you were born in Milner Square. 545 00:35:44,280 --> 00:35:45,960 So what? What family did you have 546 00:35:45,960 --> 00:35:52,200 connected together on that? Street so, so my both, both my 547 00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:55,640 maternal and paternal grandparents live there. 548 00:35:55,920 --> 00:36:01,680 So one, one of my nan's lived at 35 and my other nan lived at 49. 549 00:36:01,680 --> 00:36:09,000 We lived at 41 and my Aunt Pat, who's in the film, she lived at 550 00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:12,680 33. But she took over that flat from 551 00:36:12,680 --> 00:36:17,760 my Uncle Ronnie, who was at 33 and then moved out to Aylesbury. 552 00:36:18,280 --> 00:36:23,000 And then my other aunt, well, my great aunt lived on on the other 553 00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:26,440 side of the square. At one point, my aunt Shut, my 554 00:36:26,440 --> 00:36:31,560 great Aunt Charlotte and my Aunt Doris and my Uncle George lived 555 00:36:31,560 --> 00:36:34,160 over the other side of the square as well. 556 00:36:34,520 --> 00:36:40,040 So yeah, So when my parents met in the square, that's where they 557 00:36:40,040 --> 00:36:41,440 met. And they got married. 558 00:36:41,440 --> 00:36:45,960 And my mom was 18. And, you know, my dad was 1920, 559 00:36:46,600 --> 00:36:50,360 and then he went off to war, you know, after that. 560 00:36:53,120 --> 00:36:55,720 Yeah. So we had but a lot of families. 561 00:36:55,720 --> 00:37:00,040 Doris, who I interview in the film, she had both her brothers 562 00:37:00,040 --> 00:37:01,960 lived on the square with their families. 563 00:37:01,960 --> 00:37:07,000 They had a large number of kids. So there, there was a lot of 564 00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:09,440 that. You know, it was like Beaujo's 565 00:37:09,440 --> 00:37:12,560 or, or the Brennan was, you know, and it was like a little 566 00:37:12,560 --> 00:37:16,680 tribe. So I suppose when people heard 567 00:37:16,680 --> 00:37:20,680 of flats becoming vacant, they told their family members and 568 00:37:20,960 --> 00:37:24,600 they'd go to Dove Brothers, who were the people who you paid the 569 00:37:24,600 --> 00:37:27,960 rent to. You just say, you know, have you 570 00:37:27,960 --> 00:37:29,960 got a flat? It wasn't, it's not like today 571 00:37:29,960 --> 00:37:33,480 where kids can't get properties in Islington for love, no money. 572 00:37:35,080 --> 00:37:39,360 My dad, my dad always used to tell the story of how back in I 573 00:37:39,440 --> 00:37:43,840 was probably in the 60s, that they were trying to offload the 574 00:37:43,840 --> 00:37:46,480 properties because they were in such a state of disrepair. 575 00:37:46,480 --> 00:37:49,280 It's too expensive to put the right. 576 00:37:49,280 --> 00:37:53,720 And they were 4000 lbs. But of course, it might just as 577 00:37:53,720 --> 00:37:56,560 well have been 4 million because there's no way we could have, 578 00:37:57,200 --> 00:38:01,800 you know, 4000 lbs. Yeah. 579 00:38:02,000 --> 00:38:05,680 And so it did take a lot, you know, that company that bought 580 00:38:05,680 --> 00:38:09,040 the square and, and did nothing with it for a long time. 581 00:38:09,040 --> 00:38:11,840 And they were rented, just rented out and allowed to go 582 00:38:12,120 --> 00:38:17,080 into an even greater state of disrepair until council bought 583 00:38:17,080 --> 00:38:19,240 them under the compulsory purchase order. 584 00:38:21,000 --> 00:38:24,800 Yeah, it's amazing also how I suppose families moved away at 585 00:38:24,880 --> 00:38:27,440 that climb as well, you know, Milton Keynes, etcetera. 586 00:38:27,720 --> 00:38:31,360 I was on hybrid fields and I was just walking along the Crescent 587 00:38:31,360 --> 00:38:34,840 there and there's an older lady, she said you used to live on 588 00:38:34,840 --> 00:38:38,800 Highbury Fields and with her family and they were just 589 00:38:38,800 --> 00:38:40,560 falling apart. Once again. 590 00:38:40,560 --> 00:38:44,880 Could offer the opportunity to buy it, but no child, you know, 591 00:38:44,880 --> 00:38:46,720 you might as well say go and live on the moon. 592 00:38:47,120 --> 00:38:48,960 And so now, of course, that's in. 593 00:38:48,960 --> 00:38:52,080 What was it for weddings and a funeral, A really beautiful 594 00:38:52,080 --> 00:38:55,480 facade, but that was crumbling down then as well. 595 00:38:55,480 --> 00:38:58,400 So all these places that look nice and posh. 596 00:38:58,720 --> 00:39:00,320 You know. If they're if they're old, then 597 00:39:00,320 --> 00:39:03,320 they've got a story and those stories are pre falls and 598 00:39:03,320 --> 00:39:06,440 communities in them. So yeah, so lots, lots of 599 00:39:06,440 --> 00:39:09,680 changed in this thing to us and having lived, you know, living 600 00:39:09,680 --> 00:39:12,160 there yourself and rating your four daughters. 601 00:39:12,480 --> 00:39:15,160 Have you seen that A type of community change? 602 00:39:15,160 --> 00:39:18,160 Radio World. Yeah, I have. 603 00:39:18,280 --> 00:39:23,280 I mean, when we left Milner Square, we moved, we moved on to 604 00:39:23,320 --> 00:39:27,760 a council estate which was off of Caledonian Rd. which had just 605 00:39:27,760 --> 00:39:31,680 been built. And my grandmother who was still 606 00:39:31,680 --> 00:39:34,880 was living in Milner Square was desperate to go there because it 607 00:39:34,880 --> 00:39:40,000 had a bathroom, not because for her, she was on the 3rd floor in 608 00:39:40,000 --> 00:39:43,560 Milner Square and the toilet was down by the garden. 609 00:39:44,520 --> 00:39:50,280 So we moved to this council estate and and then at some 610 00:39:50,280 --> 00:39:54,960 point I got, I moved into a flat in Thornhill Road and, and my 611 00:39:54,960 --> 00:39:57,840 husband moved in. And then when we were looking to 612 00:39:57,840 --> 00:40:00,000 buy somewhere we couldn't afford Islington. 613 00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:04,760 So we moved to Stoke Newington. And my dad thought I was mad. 614 00:40:04,880 --> 00:40:09,240 It was like at that time him thinks Stoke Newington High 615 00:40:09,240 --> 00:40:12,480 Street was Muggers Mile and. It was, yeah. 616 00:40:12,480 --> 00:40:14,840 So anyway, we bought it. We managed to buy a house 617 00:40:14,840 --> 00:40:18,640 because nobody wanted to live there, £31,000 for a 5 bedroom 618 00:40:18,640 --> 00:40:22,080 house. And eventually we moved after we 619 00:40:22,080 --> 00:40:26,280 had our fourth daughter, we moved back to Islington to a 620 00:40:26,280 --> 00:40:30,400 house that was semi derelict. It's the story of our lives. 621 00:40:30,800 --> 00:40:34,400 But I live in a square now. Mostly they are flats. 622 00:40:34,480 --> 00:40:38,000 It it's, you know, 4 flats in a house or whatever. 623 00:40:38,800 --> 00:40:45,520 And I probably, I mean, we've got residents associations and 624 00:40:45,520 --> 00:40:51,240 whatnot, but I don't know that many people, you know, I suppose 625 00:40:51,920 --> 00:40:54,840 my kids possibly that's another thing. 626 00:40:56,200 --> 00:40:58,960 No, no, no, actually, no. I did have young kids when we 627 00:40:58,960 --> 00:41:00,760 moved to here, but to this place. 628 00:41:00,760 --> 00:41:06,640 But I think it is different. Yeah, I think I think people 629 00:41:06,640 --> 00:41:09,400 kind of keep themselves to themselves a bit more now. 630 00:41:09,960 --> 00:41:12,120 I'm always different when I go up north to work. 631 00:41:12,120 --> 00:41:15,400 I'm always defending the South because people say we're so 632 00:41:15,400 --> 00:41:21,080 unfriendly and so on and that, you know, everyone in Manchester 633 00:41:21,080 --> 00:41:24,640 is, is is so jolly. Then I can, I mean, then 634 00:41:24,640 --> 00:41:27,080 sometimes I think, you know, probably, you know, they're not 635 00:41:27,080 --> 00:41:33,040 wrong respects with, but I think people, I think there are lots 636 00:41:33,040 --> 00:41:35,960 more problems in London and I think people are never quite 637 00:41:35,960 --> 00:41:38,880 sure, you know, what they might get themselves into. 638 00:41:38,880 --> 00:41:41,360 So I think I think it's some little streets. 639 00:41:41,360 --> 00:41:44,960 There's probably that same sense of community, but I'd say it's 640 00:41:44,960 --> 00:41:50,440 not as as widespread as it was. Now that you're right, I'm if 641 00:41:50,440 --> 00:41:54,720 I'm in a Victorian tariff and really only see the neighbors 642 00:41:54,720 --> 00:41:56,920 when we all put our bins out. Otherwise. 643 00:41:57,080 --> 00:41:59,680 You know, we're, we're inside. But I think that is the other 644 00:41:59,680 --> 00:42:04,280 thing, isn't it, that a lot more women were at home during that 645 00:42:04,280 --> 00:42:36,640 time? And so, and, and it was like you 646 00:42:36,640 --> 00:42:41,200 said early on, you know, even though she were kind of slums 647 00:42:41,200 --> 00:42:45,320 and we didn't own them. I mean, you know, women were out 648 00:42:45,320 --> 00:42:49,240 there with their tub of BIM scrubbing the front steps every 649 00:42:49,240 --> 00:42:51,800 week. It was you take it in turns. 650 00:42:52,280 --> 00:42:56,920 And my Nan's, you know the lino in my nan's hallway, it was like 651 00:42:56,920 --> 00:42:59,920 an ice skating rink. So yeah. 652 00:43:00,680 --> 00:43:03,560 They were all at home or they were hanging out the washing or 653 00:43:03,560 --> 00:43:09,240 doing the winds windows and so on and going to the local shop. 654 00:43:09,560 --> 00:43:12,880 I mean, you know, there was in Islington, because I've worked 655 00:43:12,880 --> 00:43:16,560 here, so many shops in Islington growing up, whether it's Marks 656 00:43:16,560 --> 00:43:19,640 and Spencer's clerks, the bakers, the Wimpy, the bookies. 657 00:43:20,160 --> 00:43:23,240 But there wasn't a Sainsbury's, you know, there weren't, there 658 00:43:23,240 --> 00:43:27,960 weren't those big supermarkets. And so people went to the local 659 00:43:27,960 --> 00:43:32,640 grocery shop on Barnsbury St. and the sweet shop next door to 660 00:43:32,640 --> 00:43:36,000 get their tobacco on whatever. So there was a lot more 661 00:43:36,000 --> 00:43:41,840 interaction with local people. And I think that that that 662 00:43:41,840 --> 00:43:43,920 perhaps has has gone a little bit. 663 00:43:45,320 --> 00:43:48,600 And where was the local boozer? Which one was the go to? 664 00:43:49,120 --> 00:43:52,120 Neither. And my parents drank, I think my 665 00:43:52,120 --> 00:43:56,520 mum got drunk on port when she was about 19 and she came home 666 00:43:56,520 --> 00:44:00,600 with a Turkey under her arm or something for Chris first time. 667 00:44:00,920 --> 00:44:03,520 And then she didn't, she never dragged after that. 668 00:44:03,520 --> 00:44:08,200 And my dad didn't really drink. So, so they we, we kind of 669 00:44:08,200 --> 00:44:11,520 didn't go to the to the boozers that much. 670 00:44:11,600 --> 00:44:14,520 You know, I know kids who didn't sat outside for the bucket of 671 00:44:14,520 --> 00:44:18,400 Chris, but I think it, yeah, I don't know which ones people 672 00:44:18,400 --> 00:44:23,880 used, really. Right, what fantastic way to to 673 00:44:23,880 --> 00:44:30,800 remember Little little Pocket of London Line and thank you so 674 00:44:30,800 --> 00:44:34,520 much for talking about your your experiences with this film and 675 00:44:34,520 --> 00:44:36,360 sharing your family stories as well. 676 00:44:36,520 --> 00:44:40,160 I wish, I wish more. People did it because we're just 677 00:44:40,160 --> 00:44:42,280 going to. We're going to lose so much if 678 00:44:42,280 --> 00:44:44,400 we don't. Indeed, indeed. 679 00:44:44,400 --> 00:44:47,600 Yeah, yeah. Thank you, Susan. 680 00:44:47,600 --> 00:44:49,160 That's been. Absolutely wonderful. 681 00:44:49,160 --> 00:44:50,360 You're very welcome.