Welcome to Under the Microscope Podcast, where we spotlight
materials and nanoscience. Under the Microscope is the
flagship podcast of the Science Talk, and here we explore the
fascinating world of materials and nanoscience.
Our goal is to provide a stage where scientists can communicate
their work and interact with the public.
With that in mind, with every episode we introduced you to a
scientist working in the field of materials and nanoscience.
Join us as we dwell into the groundbreaking research,
innovative discoveries and the inspiring stories of scientists
making waves in this field. Welcome to Under the Microscope
podcast of the Science Talk. My name is Pranutik Shirsagar,
I'm your host. And today we have with us
Humaira Katlayan, who is a professor at not one, but two
universities in Europe, one in Netherlands and the other in
Finland. In Netherlands, she's a
professor at the Eindhoven University of Technology and in
Finland, Tampere University. Humera is gonna tell us about
this very exciting project called 3D Microscopy.
Funded by Jane and Aptos Arco Foundation.
The funding called Supporting the 3D Microscopy Project is
Future Makers. This project started in 2023, so
it's been running for two years now and it will go for another
one year. And of course, what better
podcast to talk about 3D microscopy than under the
microscope? Please join me in welcoming
Humera. Hi, Obera.
Hello. Hello.
How are you doing today? I'm doing great.
Thank you. How are you?
I'm good. I'm so excited to talk about
this project. 3D microscopy. I don't know if you remember,
but the first time you told me about it, my eyes just went
like, wait, what? And then what?
So tell us what is the scope of this project in super simple
words please? Yes, sure.
I think everybody knows about the imaging and especially
biomedical imaging that's super important in our life.
The need on the medical is that we have to be looking for 3D
images, but we cannot sacrifice a lot of time to collect this 3D
image. And our project is all about
getting these 3D images in a snapshot so that we can get the
best quality images, volumetric images for either research
purposes or for treatment purposes.
What are you imaging here? So we are imaging from cells or
any kind of large biological samples as well can be organs.
That's of course quite tricky because what we really do
concurrent technology is that we have to scan them slice by slice
and that's not ideal. So if you would like to have an
image of a living cell, for example, we need to do it very
quickly so that we can see the all functioning in a very short
amount of time. One good example is a zebra
fish. Zebrafish is of course a fish
that is quite often used in biomedical imaging.
And we really want to image the zebrafish so that we can see how
its brain functions or how its retina or heartbeat that we
could see those things. So what we are imaging is that
volumetric image of zebrafish but also in a very short amount
of time so that we can record it as well during that time without
harming the the cells or biological samples.
So, OK, wait, this is completely a new concept also for me now,
because for my PHDI did transparent microelectrodes for
electrophysiology, so simultaneous electrophysiology
and optical imaging. And back then when I wanted to
see the interface or interaction between the cells and my
samples, like microphene sample for instance, I had to freeze
it. I had to do like the dye and all
of that. And of course, at the end the
cell was frozen, so it was dead like a cardiomyocyte or so.
And we got these beautiful images where we could see the
insights of a cardiomyocyte, which is a heart cell, and how
it was interacting or rather how it was sitting on my electrode.
So what you are telling me is that with your technology, we
won't have to kill the cells. The cell can just exist, it's
living while we are still able to get a 3D image.
If you would have told me that we will just get a 2D image, I
would already be super happy. But what you're telling me is
that we'll get a 3D image. Yeah.
Well, of course, it's a challenge, right.
So because in such kind of a setting as you mentioned, we
either have to froze the sample because we need a lot of time
and that's why we need to scan step by step each focus point
and then get the image. So that's the limiting factor in
terms of time. So you have to focus to a
certain plane and then get the perfect image and then you have
to go another one and do it again and again and again along
the body of the simple. In our technology, what we
innovate is that we can extend the depth of focus along the
region that is needed for the whole scan.
So we can get it at a snapshot the image.
So we do not need to scan at each focal point, but we can get
the whole image and a perfect focus.
So that is the innovative part. How?
OK, OK. This is like, OK, OK.
If you're talking about microscopy, the first question
that comes is what is the resolution, right?
So yeah, can you tell us about what resolution are we talking
about and what area are we talking about with the 3D
microscope, like the 3D map of sorts, How big can you do, how
quickly can you do, and what is the resolution?
How clear will the image be? Yeah, I think the challenge with
the microscopes, right, So you can either sacrifice the
resolution or how much depth you could go and so on.
So they're all related concepts within each other.
What we are doing is that we are in a evading this novel optics
that we call meta optics and this with meta optics we are
extending from couple of microns to 305 hundred microns.
So then we can have this whole image in focus.
So we are doing it of course within the availability as well,
also the software of the reconstructions that we develop
so that we can bring you all together within the correct
image. Group and and you will do the
imaging and the cell can just exist, right?
It can just go and do whatever. Aim is that to scan the whole
zebra fish at a snapshot, so giving that dimension so we do
not have to do a lot of scanning.
Of course for the perfect imaging I think if you prefer
higher resolution you might go into one or two times of
scanning, but still they are talking about maybe milliseconds
of whole scanning, so already quite, quite good.
Wait, did you say milliseconds for the entire zebra fish?
How big is the zebrafish? Well.
Zebrafish can be about 500 Micron by 500 Micron.
You can think of the range of the image that you would need
when you're imaging a zebrafish. Oh, wow.
So for people who are not familiar with these dimensions,
that is half a millimeter by half a millimeter being scanned
in fraction of a second. Yeah.
Indeed, and why we want to do it in a very short amount of time
is because brain activities can be quite fast.
Currently I think the best one being recorded is at it 1.5
seconds intervals, so we can only see the activity every 1.5
second, but you would like to see what happens in between
these 1.5 seconds. So that's why we are calling
this basically like a snapshot 3D.
Snapshot 3D imaging. That is brilliant.
That is so cool because that was also going to be my next
question, right? Because living things like to
move, and I remember this from on the cardiomyocytes, which are
the heart cells which form a carpet on a flat surface and
they're beating like a heart. If it is not a snapshot, that
just makes it more complex because then the image is
blurry. So what is this size of the data
then? You know, because I'm just
thinking if we want to record the neurons talking to each
other or communicating with each other in the brain, because that
was also one of the things why we wanted to have transparent
microelectrodes. That is the closest I have as a
comparison to understand and your work and the application of
your work in the living systems. The neurons, when they are
firing and then when they are communicating with each other,
neurons have the brain cells for people as a reminder.
And they're firing very quickly. And you want to be able to
understand and image it, visualize it, not just record
the signal, but also be able to visualize it.
And that is something that your project, the 3D microscopy and
the snapshot 3D microscopy is able to give.
So what kind of images are we looking?
At we are working on three or four different colors in the RGB
range. So red, green and blue.
We are talking about different color images that we could
collect. But of course as we look at
especially for this kind of brain activity, then we would
see some firing up of the neurons.
Then it is like a little bit of more black and yellowish kind of
colors. These are kind of the images
that we could record. This gives us a quite an
opportunity to see in a short demand of time how these kind of
activities happen, that people then take this to another levels
for treatment and so on. But for us, the ideal is that we
will get the most data possible within a short amount of time
for future use of any biomedical purposes.
And here we have to work both on the hardware and the software
part. We have to bring them together.
That's why you mentioned about the data, it's important part as
well. We cannot just give a row of
data. So there we have to really
create the image that can mean something for person that is
looking at it. That's why you also then
creating this image reconstruction part, software
part that one can really turn around this 3D image, look
around which direction that you want to look and so on.
Imagine that you have this kind of 3D volume image that you can
turn around with your mouse. You can look at different
directions could be quite useful.
Hopefully to also to bring it any any of the doctor's office.
In the future, and that is the future that we see or want to
see on TV shows like Grey's Anatomy, for instance, where
Doctor Shepherd doing the brain surgery and then they're like,
Oh my God, where is the tumor? I want to be able to visualize
the tumor. When is it?
There comes Humira and her team with the 3D microscopy, like
here you go, you have the 3D meds and now you're able to look
at it and visualize it and move it around so that you only cut
the tumor out and not the brain. Yeah, indeed.
I'm not sure if that is the kind of dramatic application you had
in mind, but well. Yeah, imagine really nicely.
Yeah, indeed. So if you could bring it to the
surgery room, that is the ideal. They can make sure that they
have this perfect samples in the surgery.
That's that's the ideal case, of course, for.
Us that would be perfect right it would be as less invasive as
possible, which is great for the the doctors it's great for the
surgeons it's great for the patients as well that is that is
brilliant so you also mentioned the software and the hardware
part. I know you are an amazing
scientist. You are a professor at 2
universities, 2 really big short universities, but I'm assuming
not doing this alone. Oh yeah, that is that is a lot
to do alone. So we are doing it actually as
as three different team. So my team take care of the
optical setup. We are mostly an optic photonic
experts. So we are developing optic setup
of the microscope and the novel optic part that we are
developing mainly so that we could achieve this depth of
focus that is enhanced. We have Johnson and Anil with
me, my postdoc and my PhD student.
And then for the software part, we are working with Atanas
coaches and Airtime Shahin from another faculty and they are the
one who are developing the software part.
They are also together with another postdoc, Yani, and they
are imaging experts. I called them sometimes that
you're doing magic with images. Another partner is in the
biology department, biomedical department is Temo.
And Temo is the person who brings problems to us.
So from biomedical, he is the one who brings the problems and
solve it. So yeah, we are quite a big
theme that interacts from different parts.
So we are both looking from perspective of optics, photonics
as well imaging. Parts.
That sounds wonderful and I'm a big, big fan of major
disciplines, different teams of different experts working
together because I think that is the key to innovation.
The project has been running for two years and it will go for
another one year. So can you share some initial
results with us? How close are we to have this
technology on this TV show, Grey's Anatomy or in real life?
Yes, it's been 2 years and we have been quite busy trying to
make this microscope set up. And now we have this set up and
trying to make this working in the lab.
So we have developed this novel meta optics parts.
Initially, we showed how in theory it will work this meta
optics parts together with the image reconstruction.
We had the hardware completed. So now we are making tests
together with the software. We are using simpler biological
samples to test our setup. This has been the work for us
for two years. It's been quite a lot of effort
from all parties. And the third here, now we can
really want to test this in a zebra fish, for example.
That's the ideal. And once we can show all this,
what we really want to do is more on the packaging because
now overwhelming to bring it to a doctor's office or surgeon
room. So what we really want to do is
that to make it more user friendly so that we can do it
without us in the room so that we don't have to go each room.
And this can be quite be used by hopefully many, many places.
Ideally, of course, we do not just want to leave it in the any
kind of biological samples. But as you mentioned, it can be
used for tumors as well so that it can bring it to the third
room, so that we can take it to any places in the world.
So be useful for the whole society at the end.
That's, that's good to know. I can talk to you for hours and
hours. I have so many questions for
you, but I'll ask you one last question and then I will let you
go because this has been fantastic.
So what are you most excited about in the next 6 months of
this project? So far I have seen so much nice
images from our setup. What I'm really looking forward
to see is a real life live samples image so that we can
really record how it changes within a certain time.
The images taken from our microscope.
That's the final things that we are looking in this project.
Now I'm also looking forward that we had an extension project
of this project as you mentioned to the surgery rooms with
partners in the United States. So I'm also excited to start
that project that is to work with even or so pathologist on
this and what are their challenges and how can we solve
or modified using our microscope.
So are the next big steps for us in the next 6 months, one year?
So next season of Grey's Anatomy, we'll have your
technology. So maybe maybe it's been quite
challenging for us to really think around it at each point of
how to really improve it because there was quite a struggle to
have to balance the resolution aspect of it and like a depth of
field aspect and then also make it compatible with a biological
logical samples. This was all each point a
different challenge for us to think.
And one simple example that I always give is that it was quite
challenging to think, even to make an image 3D.
Of course, you can always get the images, but to make it at a
snapshot, we really mimic their the human perspective.
For example, people understand image if it's a 2D or 3D and we
mimic that right now what they really do is that are you
familiar how people understand understand if it's a 2D or 3D?
So what we do is a very basic human instinct.
We turn our head so we try to understand if it's a 3D or not.
And that's actually what we also mimicking with our this
so-called novel optics. We are mimicking so that we are
collecting it from different angles so that we could collect
3D. So it was quite challenging the
way from looking from different optics, different software, and
then trying to mimic also some of these things from nature and
then implement it to really a biological sample.
So now I'm really excited to see in the last year how we bring it
to this whole thing together. Absolutely, yeah.
And you, you also mentioned the meta optics and I would love to
get into more details of what do you mean from the physics
perspective. What do you mean by the meta
optics? How exactly are you doing it?
That would be really cool for me definitely to understand and for
everyone else also to understand, of course, the
application and when all all of this comes together.
This is great. But also the physics behind how
exactly you did it. What you also mentioned with
looking from different, like we tilt our heads, we move around
and that's exactly what your optics is sort of doing.
So yeah, that would be awesome. Perfect.
Thank you very much, Umera. Excited to talk to you again
with the images and the 3D maps of sorts that you will have as
the initial results or the next results and looking forward to
speaking with you again. This has been wonderful.
Thank you very much. Yeah.
Thank you. Thank you having me.
Thank you for listening. I hope you enjoyed this episode.
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Science Talk. Thank you for listening and we
will see you in the next one. Are you telling me that me as a
human is 70% similar to the zebra?
It's a fish. It's a fish.
Are you talking? About do you mean in our brains,
like how our brains function or do you what does that OK, this
is this is opened a completely new stream of questions now.
I thought the closest we were to animals was chimpanzees and now
you're my OK. This just shows how how much I
don't know about biology. So for our listeners and
watchers and followers, I'm sorry if I come off as this
ignorant person, but really ask me anything about nanoscience
and material science and I would give able to give you the wait.
OK, 70% please. OK.
We would like to study zebra fish because it has 70% genetic
resemblance to a human that if he can study zebra fish,
understand it, then I believe that it will really help
biomedical people to really bring up different aspects.
For example, they would mainly study the brain cells of the
zebra fish, for example, to understand for reals armors and
so on. So that's why it's quite
important to bring them the tools.
That's our job. Bring them the tool to study it.
So if we can give them the tool to study this, I believe that
they can achieve really, really great things.
So cool. That is so cool.