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Welcome to Under the Microscope 
Podcast, where we spotlight 

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materials and nanoscience. 
Under the Microscope is the 

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flagship podcast of the Science 
Talk, and here we explore the 

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fascinating world of materials 
and nanoscience. 

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Our goal is to provide a stage 
where scientists can communicate

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their work and interact with the
public. 

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With that in mind, with every 
episode we introduced you to a 

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scientist working in the field 
of materials and nanoscience. 

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Join us as we dwell into the 
groundbreaking research, 

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innovative discoveries and the 
inspiring stories of scientists 

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making waves in this field. 
Welcome to Under the Microscope 

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podcast of the Science Talk. 
My name is Pranutik Shirsagar, 

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I'm your host. 
And today we have with us 

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Humaira Katlayan, who is a 
professor at not one, but two 

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universities in Europe, one in 
Netherlands and the other in 

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Finland. 
In Netherlands, she's a 

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professor at the Eindhoven 
University of Technology and in 

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Finland, Tampere University. 
Humera is gonna tell us about 

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this very exciting project 
called 3D Microscopy. 

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Funded by Jane and Aptos Arco 
Foundation. 

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The funding called Supporting 
the 3D Microscopy Project is 

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Future Makers. 
This project started in 2023, so

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it's been running for two years 
now and it will go for another 

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one year. 
And of course, what better 

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podcast to talk about 3D 
microscopy than under the 

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microscope? 
Please join me in welcoming 

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Humera. 
Hi, Obera. 

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Hello. 
Hello. 

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How are you doing today? 
I'm doing great. 

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Thank you. 
How are you? 

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I'm good. 
I'm so excited to talk about 

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this project. 3D microscopy. 
I don't know if you remember, 

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but the first time you told me 
about it, my eyes just went 

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like, wait, what? 
And then what? 

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So tell us what is the scope of 
this project in super simple 

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words please? 
Yes, sure. 

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I think everybody knows about 
the imaging and especially 

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biomedical imaging that's super 
important in our life. 

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The need on the medical is that 
we have to be looking for 3D 

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images, but we cannot sacrifice 
a lot of time to collect this 3D

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image. 
And our project is all about 

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getting these 3D images in a 
snapshot so that we can get the 

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best quality images, volumetric 
images for either research 

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purposes or for treatment 
purposes. 

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What are you imaging here? 
So we are imaging from cells or 

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any kind of large biological 
samples as well can be organs. 

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That's of course quite tricky 
because what we really do 

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concurrent technology is that we
have to scan them slice by slice

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and that's not ideal. 
So if you would like to have an 

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image of a living cell, for 
example, we need to do it very 

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quickly so that we can see the 
all functioning in a very short 

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amount of time. 
One good example is a zebra 

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fish. 
Zebrafish is of course a fish 

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that is quite often used in 
biomedical imaging. 

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And we really want to image the 
zebrafish so that we can see how

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its brain functions or how its 
retina or heartbeat that we 

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could see those things. 
So what we are imaging is that 

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volumetric image of zebrafish 
but also in a very short amount 

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of time so that we can record it
as well during that time without

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harming the the cells or 
biological samples. 

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So, OK, wait, this is completely
a new concept also for me now, 

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because for my PHDI did 
transparent microelectrodes for 

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electrophysiology, so 
simultaneous electrophysiology 

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and optical imaging. 
And back then when I wanted to 

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see the interface or interaction
between the cells and my 

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samples, like microphene sample 
for instance, I had to freeze 

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it. 
I had to do like the dye and all

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of that. 
And of course, at the end the 

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cell was frozen, so it was dead 
like a cardiomyocyte or so. 

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And we got these beautiful 
images where we could see the 

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insights of a cardiomyocyte, 
which is a heart cell, and how 

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it was interacting or rather how
it was sitting on my electrode. 

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So what you are telling me is 
that with your technology, we 

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won't have to kill the cells. 
The cell can just exist, it's 

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living while we are still able 
to get a 3D image. 

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If you would have told me that 
we will just get a 2D image, I 

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would already be super happy. 
But what you're telling me is 

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that we'll get a 3D image. 
Yeah. 

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Well, of course, it's a 
challenge, right. 

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So because in such kind of a 
setting as you mentioned, we 

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either have to froze the sample 
because we need a lot of time 

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and that's why we need to scan 
step by step each focus point 

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and then get the image. 
So that's the limiting factor in

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terms of time. 
So you have to focus to a 

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certain plane and then get the 
perfect image and then you have 

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to go another one and do it 
again and again and again along 

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the body of the simple. 
In our technology, what we 

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innovate is that we can extend 
the depth of focus along the 

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region that is needed for the 
whole scan. 

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So we can get it at a snapshot 
the image. 

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So we do not need to scan at 
each focal point, but we can get

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the whole image and a perfect 
focus. 

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So that is the innovative part. 
How? 

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OK, OK. 
This is like, OK, OK. 

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If you're talking about 
microscopy, the first question 

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that comes is what is the 
resolution, right? 

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So yeah, can you tell us about 
what resolution are we talking 

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about and what area are we 
talking about with the 3D 

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microscope, like the 3D map of 
sorts, How big can you do, how 

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quickly can you do, and what is 
the resolution? 

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How clear will the image be? 
Yeah, I think the challenge with

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the microscopes, right, So you 
can either sacrifice the 

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resolution or how much depth you
could go and so on. 

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So they're all related concepts 
within each other. 

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What we are doing is that we are
in a evading this novel optics 

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that we call meta optics and 
this with meta optics we are 

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extending from couple of microns
to 305 hundred microns. 

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So then we can have this whole 
image in focus. 

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So we are doing it of course 
within the availability as well,

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also the software of the 
reconstructions that we develop 

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so that we can bring you all 
together within the correct 

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image. 
Group and and you will do the 

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imaging and the cell can just 
exist, right? 

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It can just go and do whatever. 
Aim is that to scan the whole 

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zebra fish at a snapshot, so 
giving that dimension so we do 

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not have to do a lot of 
scanning. 

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Of course for the perfect 
imaging I think if you prefer 

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higher resolution you might go 
into one or two times of 

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scanning, but still they are 
talking about maybe milliseconds

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of whole scanning, so already 
quite, quite good. 

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Wait, did you say milliseconds 
for the entire zebra fish? 

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How big is the zebrafish? 
Well. 

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Zebrafish can be about 500 
Micron by 500 Micron. 

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You can think of the range of 
the image that you would need 

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when you're imaging a zebrafish.
Oh, wow. 

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So for people who are not 
familiar with these dimensions, 

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that is half a millimeter by 
half a millimeter being scanned 

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in fraction of a second. 
Yeah. 

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Indeed, and why we want to do it
in a very short amount of time 

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is because brain activities can 
be quite fast. 

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Currently I think the best one 
being recorded is at it 1.5 

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seconds intervals, so we can 
only see the activity every 1.5 

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second, but you would like to 
see what happens in between 

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these 1.5 seconds. 
So that's why we are calling 

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this basically like a snapshot 
3D. 

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Snapshot 3D imaging. 
That is brilliant. 

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That is so cool because that was
also going to be my next 

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question, right? 
Because living things like to 

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move, and I remember this from 
on the cardiomyocytes, which are

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the heart cells which form a 
carpet on a flat surface and 

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they're beating like a heart. 
If it is not a snapshot, that 

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just makes it more complex 
because then the image is 

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blurry. 
So what is this size of the data

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then? 
You know, because I'm just 

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thinking if we want to record 
the neurons talking to each 

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other or communicating with each
other in the brain, because that

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was also one of the things why 
we wanted to have transparent 

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microelectrodes. 
That is the closest I have as a 

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comparison to understand and 
your work and the application of

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your work in the living systems.
The neurons, when they are 

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firing and then when they are 
communicating with each other, 

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neurons have the brain cells for
people as a reminder. 

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And they're firing very quickly.
And you want to be able to 

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understand and image it, 
visualize it, not just record 

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the signal, but also be able to 
visualize it. 

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And that is something that your 
project, the 3D microscopy and 

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the snapshot 3D microscopy is 
able to give. 

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So what kind of images are we 
looking? 

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At we are working on three or 
four different colors in the RGB

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range. 
So red, green and blue. 

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We are talking about different 
color images that we could 

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collect. 
But of course as we look at 

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especially for this kind of 
brain activity, then we would 

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see some firing up of the 
neurons. 

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Then it is like a little bit of 
more black and yellowish kind of

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colors. 
These are kind of the images 

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that we could record. 
This gives us a quite an 

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opportunity to see in a short 
demand of time how these kind of

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activities happen, that people 
then take this to another levels

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for treatment and so on. 
But for us, the ideal is that we

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will get the most data possible 
within a short amount of time 

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for future use of any biomedical
purposes. 

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And here we have to work both on
the hardware and the software 

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part. 
We have to bring them together. 

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That's why you mentioned about 
the data, it's important part as

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well. 
We cannot just give a row of 

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data. 
So there we have to really 

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create the image that can mean 
something for person that is 

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looking at it. 
That's why you also then 

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creating this image 
reconstruction part, software 

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part that one can really turn 
around this 3D image, look 

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around which direction that you 
want to look and so on. 

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Imagine that you have this kind 
of 3D volume image that you can 

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turn around with your mouse. 
You can look at different 

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directions could be quite 
useful. 

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Hopefully to also to bring it 
any any of the doctor's office. 

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In the future, and that is the 
future that we see or want to 

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see on TV shows like Grey's 
Anatomy, for instance, where 

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Doctor Shepherd doing the brain 
surgery and then they're like, 

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Oh my God, where is the tumor? 
I want to be able to visualize 

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the tumor. 
When is it? 

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There comes Humira and her team 
with the 3D microscopy, like 

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here you go, you have the 3D 
meds and now you're able to look

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at it and visualize it and move 
it around so that you only cut 

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the tumor out and not the brain.
Yeah, indeed. 

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I'm not sure if that is the kind
of dramatic application you had 

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in mind, but well. 
Yeah, imagine really nicely. 

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Yeah, indeed. 
So if you could bring it to the 

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surgery room, that is the ideal.
They can make sure that they 

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have this perfect samples in the
surgery. 

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That's that's the ideal case, of
course, for. 

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Us that would be perfect right 
it would be as less invasive as 

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possible, which is great for the
the doctors it's great for the 

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surgeons it's great for the 
patients as well that is that is

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brilliant so you also mentioned 
the software and the hardware 

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part. 
I know you are an amazing 

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scientist. 
You are a professor at 2 

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universities, 2 really big short
universities, but I'm assuming 

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not doing this alone. 
Oh yeah, that is that is a lot 

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to do alone. 
So we are doing it actually as 

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as three different team. 
So my team take care of the 

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optical setup. 
We are mostly an optic photonic 

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experts. 
So we are developing optic setup

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of the microscope and the novel 
optic part that we are 

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developing mainly so that we 
could achieve this depth of 

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focus that is enhanced. 
We have Johnson and Anil with 

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me, my postdoc and my PhD 
student. 

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And then for the software part, 
we are working with Atanas 

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coaches and Airtime Shahin from 
another faculty and they are the

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one who are developing the 
software part. 

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They are also together with 
another postdoc, Yani, and they 

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are imaging experts. 
I called them sometimes that 

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you're doing magic with images. 
Another partner is in the 

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biology department, biomedical 
department is Temo. 

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And Temo is the person who 
brings problems to us. 

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So from biomedical, he is the 
one who brings the problems and 

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solve it. 
So yeah, we are quite a big 

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theme that interacts from 
different parts. 

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So we are both looking from 
perspective of optics, photonics

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as well imaging. 
Parts. 

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That sounds wonderful and I'm a 
big, big fan of major 

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disciplines, different teams of 
different experts working 

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together because I think that is
the key to innovation. 

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The project has been running for
two years and it will go for 

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another one year. 
So can you share some initial 

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results with us? 
How close are we to have this 

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technology on this TV show, 
Grey's Anatomy or in real life? 

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Yes, it's been 2 years and we 
have been quite busy trying to 

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make this microscope set up. 
And now we have this set up and 

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trying to make this working in 
the lab. 

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So we have developed this novel 
meta optics parts. 

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Initially, we showed how in 
theory it will work this meta 

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optics parts together with the 
image reconstruction. 

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We had the hardware completed. 
So now we are making tests 

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together with the software. 
We are using simpler biological 

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samples to test our setup. 
This has been the work for us 

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for two years. 
It's been quite a lot of effort 

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from all parties. 
And the third here, now we can 

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really want to test this in a 
zebra fish, for example. 

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That's the ideal. 
And once we can show all this, 

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what we really want to do is 
more on the packaging because 

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now overwhelming to bring it to 
a doctor's office or surgeon 

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room. 
So what we really want to do is 

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that to make it more user 
friendly so that we can do it 

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without us in the room so that 
we don't have to go each room. 

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And this can be quite be used by
hopefully many, many places. 

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Ideally, of course, we do not 
just want to leave it in the any

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kind of biological samples. 
But as you mentioned, it can be 

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used for tumors as well so that 
it can bring it to the third 

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room, so that we can take it to 
any places in the world. 

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So be useful for the whole 
society at the end. 

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That's, that's good to know. 
I can talk to you for hours and 

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hours. 
I have so many questions for 

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you, but I'll ask you one last 
question and then I will let you

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go because this has been 
fantastic. 

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So what are you most excited 
about in the next 6 months of 

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this project? 
So far I have seen so much nice 

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images from our setup. 
What I'm really looking forward 

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to see is a real life live 
samples image so that we can 

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really record how it changes 
within a certain time. 

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The images taken from our 
microscope. 

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That's the final things that we 
are looking in this project. 

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Now I'm also looking forward 
that we had an extension project

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of this project as you mentioned
to the surgery rooms with 

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partners in the United States. 
So I'm also excited to start 

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that project that is to work 
with even or so pathologist on 

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this and what are their 
challenges and how can we solve 

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or modified using our 
microscope. 

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So are the next big steps for us
in the next 6 months, one year? 

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So next season of Grey's 
Anatomy, we'll have your 

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technology. 
So maybe maybe it's been quite 

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challenging for us to really 
think around it at each point of

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how to really improve it because
there was quite a struggle to 

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have to balance the resolution 
aspect of it and like a depth of

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field aspect and then also make 
it compatible with a biological 

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logical samples. 
This was all each point a 

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different challenge for us to 
think. 

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And one simple example that I 
always give is that it was quite

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challenging to think, even to 
make an image 3D. 

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Of course, you can always get 
the images, but to make it at a 

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snapshot, we really mimic their 
the human perspective. 

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For example, people understand 
image if it's a 2D or 3D and we 

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mimic that right now what they 
really do is that are you 

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familiar how people understand 
understand if it's a 2D or 3D? 

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So what we do is a very basic 
human instinct. 

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We turn our head so we try to 
understand if it's a 3D or not. 

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And that's actually what we also
mimicking with our this 

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so-called novel optics. 
We are mimicking so that we are 

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collecting it from different 
angles so that we could collect 

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3D. 
So it was quite challenging the 

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way from looking from different 
optics, different software, and 

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then trying to mimic also some 
of these things from nature and 

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then implement it to really a 
biological sample. 

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So now I'm really excited to see
in the last year how we bring it

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to this whole thing together. 
Absolutely, yeah. 

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And you, you also mentioned the 
meta optics and I would love to 

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get into more details of what do
you mean from the physics 

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perspective. 
What do you mean by the meta 

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optics? 
How exactly are you doing it? 

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That would be really cool for me
definitely to understand and for

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everyone else also to 
understand, of course, the 

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application and when all all of 
this comes together. 

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This is great. 
But also the physics behind how 

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exactly you did it. 
What you also mentioned with 

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looking from different, like we 
tilt our heads, we move around 

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and that's exactly what your 
optics is sort of doing. 

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So yeah, that would be awesome. 
Perfect. 

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Thank you very much, Umera. 
Excited to talk to you again 

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with the images and the 3D maps 
of sorts that you will have as 

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the initial results or the next 
results and looking forward to 

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speaking with you again. 
This has been wonderful. 

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00:18:11,200 --> 00:18:12,560
Thank you very much. 
Yeah. 

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Thank you. 
Thank you having me. 

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Thank you for listening. 
I hope you enjoyed this episode.

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00:18:23,600 --> 00:18:27,480
To find out more about us, visit
our website thesciencetalk.com 

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00:18:27,560 --> 00:18:30,800
and make sure to follow Under 
the Microscope podcast wherever 

327
00:18:30,800 --> 00:18:32,640
you're listening. 
And if you're watching on 

328
00:18:32,640 --> 00:18:35,560
YouTube, make sure to subscribe 
to the YouTube channel of the 

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00:18:35,560 --> 00:18:37,920
Science Talk. 
Thank you for listening and we 

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00:18:37,920 --> 00:18:46,040
will see you in the next one. 
Are you telling me that me as a 

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human is 70% similar to the 
zebra? 

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It's a fish. 
It's a fish. 

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00:18:51,800 --> 00:18:54,760
Are you talking? 
About do you mean in our brains,

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00:18:54,760 --> 00:18:58,720
like how our brains function or 
do you what does that OK, this 

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is this is opened a completely 
new stream of questions now. 

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I thought the closest we were to
animals was chimpanzees and now 

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you're my OK. 
This just shows how how much I 

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00:19:12,040 --> 00:19:16,200
don't know about biology. 
So for our listeners and 

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00:19:16,200 --> 00:19:19,880
watchers and followers, I'm 
sorry if I come off as this 

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00:19:20,120 --> 00:19:23,560
ignorant person, but really ask 
me anything about nanoscience 

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00:19:23,560 --> 00:19:26,000
and material science and I would
give able to give you the wait. 

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00:19:26,440 --> 00:19:29,400
OK, 70% please. 
OK. 

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We would like to study zebra 
fish because it has 70% genetic 

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resemblance to a human that if 
he can study zebra fish, 

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00:19:37,960 --> 00:19:41,280
understand it, then I believe 
that it will really help 

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biomedical people to really 
bring up different aspects. 

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For example, they would mainly 
study the brain cells of the 

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00:19:48,040 --> 00:19:52,200
zebra fish, for example, to 
understand for reals armors and 

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00:19:52,200 --> 00:19:54,280
so on. 
So that's why it's quite 

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important to bring them the 
tools. 

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That's our job. 
Bring them the tool to study it.

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So if we can give them the tool 
to study this, I believe that 

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they can achieve really, really 
great things. 

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So cool. 
That is so cool.