1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:03,280 $1 million Bitcoin. When's that going to happen? 2 00:00:03,480 --> 00:00:05,240 My guess is is it's going to be this year. 3 00:00:05,360 --> 00:00:07,520 It's going to be this year. That's a 10X. 4 00:00:07,680 --> 00:00:10,880 Bitcoin has 17X in the past. There is no upper bound to 5 00:00:10,880 --> 00:00:12,560 Bitcoin. People talk about diminishing 6 00:00:12,560 --> 00:00:15,680 returns, right? But if it's a step change, just 7 00:00:15,680 --> 00:00:19,600 like the failure of the the German mark, it's not a gradual 8 00:00:19,600 --> 00:00:21,040 thing and there's no upper bound. 9 00:00:21,200 --> 00:00:23,640 It's just gone. Are they scared of Bitcoin 10 00:00:23,640 --> 00:00:25,880 Samson? I think the IMF is definitely 11 00:00:25,880 --> 00:00:29,040 scared of Bitcoin because they are a Fiat organization. 12 00:00:29,120 --> 00:00:32,840 With Bitcoin, they're irrelevant or they need to adopt Bitcoin. 13 00:00:33,280 --> 00:00:35,760 It's their choice. Either you adapt or you die. 14 00:00:36,000 --> 00:00:39,960 My question too is why is the price still at $97,000 if if we 15 00:00:39,960 --> 00:00:42,280 have all this massive purchasing going on? 16 00:00:42,280 --> 00:00:47,880 Is it like a flush? All right, we're here in the 17 00:00:47,880 --> 00:00:52,240 beautiful El Salvador and the Jan Three headquarters in Casa 18 00:00:52,240 --> 00:00:55,080 Cielo with the legendary one and only Samsung Mao. 19 00:00:55,080 --> 00:00:56,360 How you doing man? Thank you, Nico. 20 00:00:56,360 --> 00:00:57,440 It's great to be here. Good. 21 00:00:57,440 --> 00:00:59,920 Great to be here as well. I just, I kind of want to give a 22 00:00:59,920 --> 00:01:02,400 little bit of the back story how we got this working. 23 00:01:02,400 --> 00:01:05,800 So of course, Plan B Forum was just over the weekend here in El 24 00:01:05,800 --> 00:01:08,840 Salvador for the first time. And I was like, Samson, you 25 00:01:08,840 --> 00:01:11,520 know, you want to come on the show and you just replied with, 26 00:01:11,520 --> 00:01:12,920 do you want to do another volcano? 27 00:01:13,000 --> 00:01:15,520 And I just replied with absolutely, period. 28 00:01:15,560 --> 00:01:18,120 And then we scrambled and we got this together with this 29 00:01:18,120 --> 00:01:19,960 beautiful shot. By the way, for anyone who's 30 00:01:19,960 --> 00:01:23,280 watching this, it's not a green screen, it's an actual volcano. 31 00:01:23,280 --> 00:01:25,400 So it's pretty cool. Don't trust verify. 32 00:01:25,520 --> 00:01:27,360 You can come here. Yeah. 33 00:01:27,360 --> 00:01:30,560 It's absolutely beautiful. So Samson, you know we're here. 34 00:01:30,560 --> 00:01:33,240 The price of Bitcoin at the time of recording is currently 35 00:01:33,240 --> 00:01:36,640 $97,000. I think we're expecting a lot 36 00:01:36,640 --> 00:01:38,680 more of it, honestly. And I think that's something 37 00:01:38,680 --> 00:01:42,200 that you've said on recent interviews that Bitcoin is 38 00:01:42,200 --> 00:01:45,000 massively undervalued. Could you talk a little bit 39 00:01:45,000 --> 00:01:45,880 about that? Yeah. 40 00:01:45,880 --> 00:01:48,640 So I've been predicting 1,000,000 for a while and 41 00:01:48,640 --> 00:01:51,480 hopefully I'll hit some time. But I believe this pullback is 42 00:01:51,480 --> 00:01:55,400 very normal because the altcoin market was overheated. 43 00:01:55,560 --> 00:01:59,240 If you look at XRP Ripple, it was $3. 44 00:01:59,240 --> 00:02:02,680 That's ridiculous. With Bitcoin at 97 or so, Ripple 45 00:02:02,680 --> 00:02:05,800 is still at 260. And then you have Solana and 46 00:02:05,800 --> 00:02:07,200 everything. Everything is overpriced right 47 00:02:07,200 --> 00:02:09,080 now for the altcoins. So I think it's normal. 48 00:02:09,080 --> 00:02:11,840 We come down, they shake off, and then we go back up. 49 00:02:11,840 --> 00:02:13,600 Bitcoin dominance increases again. 50 00:02:13,920 --> 00:02:17,920 But Bitcoin dominance is really intellect measurement, like how 51 00:02:17,920 --> 00:02:21,160 much money is being allocated to altcoins, and that needs to drop 52 00:02:21,360 --> 00:02:23,040 before we can take off again, I believe. 53 00:02:23,040 --> 00:02:26,920 But overall, Bitcoin is undervalued and I think even at 54 00:02:26,920 --> 00:02:30,600 100 KA 100 and 5200, it's still undervalued. 55 00:02:30,600 --> 00:02:32,520 And what's the case for it being undervalued? 56 00:02:32,560 --> 00:02:36,960 Well, there's just so much demand for Bitcoin right now 57 00:02:36,960 --> 00:02:41,320 from MicroStrategy, from the ETFs, from nation states, from 58 00:02:41,440 --> 00:02:44,600 ordinary people buying and Hodling that I don't think 59 00:02:44,600 --> 00:02:47,720 people have fully realized that most of the year supply of mine 60 00:02:47,720 --> 00:02:50,320 Bitcoin is already gone a few times over. 61 00:02:50,760 --> 00:02:55,400 So you have to understand there is ultimate scarcity in Bitcoin 62 00:02:55,480 --> 00:02:59,080 and I believe the understanding of ultimate scarcity is very far 63 00:02:59,080 --> 00:03:00,920 away still. People just can't wrap their 64 00:03:00,920 --> 00:03:03,720 heads around they're only being 21 million. 65 00:03:04,000 --> 00:03:07,600 And when the price drops, people kind of feel confident that I 66 00:03:07,600 --> 00:03:10,320 can get it later. But then Bitcoin rips and then 67 00:03:10,400 --> 00:03:12,440 there is no later. Like imagine being able to buy 68 00:03:12,440 --> 00:03:15,800 Bitcoin at $10,000 a coin again. It's not possible. 69 00:03:16,080 --> 00:03:20,680 And this milestone of 100,000 will be gone again in in time. 70 00:03:20,720 --> 00:03:23,600 And you say that there's, there's a lot of demand, right? 71 00:03:23,600 --> 00:03:26,520 There's the talk of the strategic Bitcoin reserve, which 72 00:03:26,520 --> 00:03:29,880 some news came out that Ripple tried to sabotage it in some 73 00:03:29,880 --> 00:03:32,240 way. It seems like we still have 180 74 00:03:32,240 --> 00:03:35,280 days as a community to kind of fight back on that front. 75 00:03:35,280 --> 00:03:37,960 And of course, MicroStrategy buying Bitcoin, a lot of 76 00:03:38,120 --> 00:03:40,680 companies following in this footsteps of MicroStrategy, like 77 00:03:40,680 --> 00:03:43,400 Metaplanet, like somewhere scientific, and they're all 78 00:03:43,400 --> 00:03:45,320 following the, the MicroStrategy strategy. 79 00:03:45,320 --> 00:03:47,680 And it seems like all their stocks are performing because of 80 00:03:47,680 --> 00:03:49,720 it. El Salvador continues to buy 81 00:03:49,720 --> 00:03:52,880 massive amounts of Bitcoin. My question too is why is the 82 00:03:52,880 --> 00:03:57,200 price still at $97,000 if if we have all this massive purchasing 83 00:03:57,200 --> 00:03:58,640 going on? Is it like a flush? 84 00:03:58,720 --> 00:04:02,920 So there's two things I would say 1 is there are obviously Ogs 85 00:04:02,920 --> 00:04:06,760 or old Hodlers that are going to sell something and you know buy 86 00:04:06,760 --> 00:04:10,200 a house, maybe enjoy life a bit. So there will always be some 87 00:04:10,200 --> 00:04:12,760 coins that are sold outside of the mine supply, but there's 88 00:04:12,760 --> 00:04:17,079 also a roughly 2 million coins that sit on exchange for market 89 00:04:17,079 --> 00:04:22,120 making trading and arbitrage. And those 2 million coins, it's 90 00:04:22,120 --> 00:04:25,160 dropping obviously now it was at more than two million before, 91 00:04:25,160 --> 00:04:27,280 but now it's at, you know, around 2 million. 92 00:04:27,440 --> 00:04:31,160 But that is enough for the coins to drop the market. 93 00:04:31,280 --> 00:04:34,320 And a lot of it has to do with Bitcoin being a 24/7 market as 94 00:04:34,320 --> 00:04:36,080 well. So this drop I believe is 95 00:04:36,080 --> 00:04:39,920 related to the tariff war. You know, American, Canadian, 96 00:04:39,920 --> 00:04:42,720 Mexican, well, we're all going to tariff each other and it's 97 00:04:42,720 --> 00:04:45,760 just panic. So Bitcoin being the only 24/7 98 00:04:45,760 --> 00:04:49,080 liquid market is the only thing that can react immediately. 99 00:04:49,120 --> 00:04:52,520 So sort of like the market sentiment is taken out on 100 00:04:52,520 --> 00:04:55,120 Bitcoin. We're the 1st to move the most 101 00:04:55,200 --> 00:04:58,600 volatile and the biggest move, and then the equities markets 102 00:04:58,600 --> 00:05:01,080 and everything else follows after that when the markets 103 00:05:01,080 --> 00:05:02,960 open. Such an antiquated concept, 104 00:05:02,960 --> 00:05:04,440 right? But that's what it is. 105 00:05:04,560 --> 00:05:07,440 But going back to the point, those 2 million coins is enough 106 00:05:07,440 --> 00:05:10,800 to move the market a little bit. And the impact of those 2 107 00:05:10,800 --> 00:05:13,200 million coins, I believe is becoming less and less 108 00:05:13,200 --> 00:05:17,640 pronounced as we increase hover. So if you break down the scheme 109 00:05:17,640 --> 00:05:21,120 of who impacts Bitcoin price, you have the the hodlers 0 110 00:05:21,120 --> 00:05:24,560 impact, they're just sitting on the coins and in ways you can 111 00:05:24,560 --> 00:05:27,520 look at it, they're coiling up that spring. 112 00:05:27,640 --> 00:05:31,440 Then you have the buyers, the people that are DCA ING either 113 00:05:31,440 --> 00:05:34,840 by day or by month, or you can say micro strategy is also in 114 00:05:34,840 --> 00:05:38,240 the DCA category and Hodling, but they're actively in 115 00:05:38,240 --> 00:05:40,960 acquisition mode, metaplanet. And like you said, then you have 116 00:05:40,960 --> 00:05:44,120 the traders, which is kind of that 2 million coins. 117 00:05:44,160 --> 00:05:46,040 So that is kind of what is driving the market. 118 00:05:46,200 --> 00:05:48,680 And Bitcoin will always be volatile because you have that 119 00:05:48,960 --> 00:05:52,320 slush fund of coins on exchanges, but that is going to 120 00:05:52,320 --> 00:05:55,280 be drained over time. And we do see that and it makes 121 00:05:55,280 --> 00:05:58,880 it more pronounced. The coil up effect from the DCA 122 00:05:58,880 --> 00:06:00,800 Airs and Hobblers. Absolutely. 123 00:06:00,800 --> 00:06:02,720 What do you think about Trump being elected? 124 00:06:04,640 --> 00:06:08,080 I think Trump is the best choice of the current slate of 125 00:06:08,080 --> 00:06:11,720 candidates that we have right now and probably the best option 126 00:06:11,720 --> 00:06:15,240 for America moving forward in this period of time because he's 127 00:06:15,240 --> 00:06:17,320 able to bring together different groups. 128 00:06:17,320 --> 00:06:20,240 Like he brought Elon Musk. You know, you might think he's a 129 00:06:20,800 --> 00:06:23,680 shit coiner and whatnot, but he is the richest man in the world 130 00:06:23,680 --> 00:06:27,840 and influential and capable. He's able to bring RFK group, 131 00:06:28,040 --> 00:06:30,280 the people that are concerned about health and other things 132 00:06:30,280 --> 00:06:32,960 and some activism, environmentalism. 133 00:06:32,960 --> 00:06:35,920 So he's able to kind of bridge together different segments of 134 00:06:35,920 --> 00:06:39,680 population that hasn't really been done before in recent 135 00:06:39,680 --> 00:06:42,440 times. So I think Trump coin, Melania 136 00:06:42,440 --> 00:06:45,200 coin aside, it was the best choice that America could have 137 00:06:45,200 --> 00:06:47,600 made. The other choice was Kamala and 138 00:06:47,720 --> 00:06:53,320 Dark Times more Elizabeth Warren choke .3 point O everything bad 139 00:06:53,480 --> 00:06:56,720 possibly for Bitcoin and you know the crypto industry. 140 00:06:57,000 --> 00:07:00,400 But now we see the tariffs and that's another interesting kind 141 00:07:00,400 --> 00:07:04,000 of worms, but at least you can see that the tariffs are going 142 00:07:04,000 --> 00:07:07,280 to be great for Bitcoin. I think near term people that 143 00:07:07,280 --> 00:07:09,840 are affected by the tariffs, they probably can't see it or 144 00:07:09,960 --> 00:07:11,280 didn't. If they're not into Bitcoin, 145 00:07:11,280 --> 00:07:15,120 they may not be thinking about this, but it's going to drive a 146 00:07:15,120 --> 00:07:18,360 lot of people to look at Bitcoin and protect themselves. 147 00:07:18,440 --> 00:07:20,680 OK. And the, the thing that 148 00:07:20,720 --> 00:07:24,040 interested me in also is the, you said Operation Checkpoint 149 00:07:24,160 --> 00:07:28,680 3.0 and we just went through Operation Choke .2 Point O. 150 00:07:28,760 --> 00:07:30,800 And a lot of the things that they were doing, they're trying 151 00:07:30,800 --> 00:07:33,280 to obfuscate it and weren't being transparent about it. 152 00:07:33,280 --> 00:07:37,120 Do you believe that it was a malicious attack on Bitcoin in 153 00:07:37,120 --> 00:07:41,400 the Bitcoin industry to at least slow down the adoption of it in 154 00:07:41,400 --> 00:07:43,800 the United States? Definitely it was. 155 00:07:44,360 --> 00:07:49,960 It was a kind of covert operation to throttle Bitcoin 156 00:07:50,160 --> 00:07:53,760 and crypto adoption. And it's really just to protect 157 00:07:53,760 --> 00:07:56,400 the existing system, right? Protect the Fed, protect the 158 00:07:56,400 --> 00:07:59,280 dollar in a certain way, protect the banking system in a certain 159 00:07:59,280 --> 00:08:01,240 way and all the incumbents, right? 160 00:08:01,320 --> 00:08:04,160 And you see that with, you know, closure of some of the banks for 161 00:08:04,160 --> 00:08:06,240 absolutely no reason. And I think signature, right? 162 00:08:06,240 --> 00:08:08,440 It was just closed for no reason whatsoever. 163 00:08:08,520 --> 00:08:11,320 And if you guys had elected Kamala, you would have, you 164 00:08:11,360 --> 00:08:14,880 know, 3 point O another version of choke point and without the 165 00:08:15,320 --> 00:08:18,120 new checks and balances that Department of Government 166 00:08:18,120 --> 00:08:19,840 efficiency is trying to introduce. 167 00:08:20,400 --> 00:08:22,240 It sucks that he named it after dosh. 168 00:08:23,680 --> 00:08:25,120 Yeah, take the good with of that. 169 00:08:25,560 --> 00:08:27,880 It was a massive troll. What do you think about Ross 170 00:08:27,880 --> 00:08:29,480 being freed? I think that's the most 171 00:08:29,480 --> 00:08:32,120 important thing. So I had a wish list for Trump. 172 00:08:32,200 --> 00:08:33,440 I had some predictions and A wish list. 173 00:08:33,480 --> 00:08:38,120 I think if he just frees Ross and stops attacking Bitcoin, 174 00:08:38,159 --> 00:08:41,280 like stops the attack on Bitcoin, Bitcoin Hodling, I 175 00:08:41,280 --> 00:08:43,559 think that's enough. The strategic Bitcoin Reserve, 176 00:08:43,559 --> 00:08:45,680 it's good for the government. It doesn't really do much for 177 00:08:45,680 --> 00:08:48,920 the people except for a mass education program for the 178 00:08:48,920 --> 00:08:50,640 people. Like OK, the government has it 179 00:08:50,680 --> 00:08:53,400 now I should have it. But outside of that, it doesn't 180 00:08:53,400 --> 00:08:55,760 really do anything for your average person in the US 181 00:08:55,880 --> 00:08:58,480 directly. So one of the arguments is that 182 00:08:58,480 --> 00:09:00,360 it would be used to pay down the debt. 183 00:09:00,440 --> 00:09:04,000 It'd be used to, you know, get the country out of debt, have 184 00:09:04,000 --> 00:09:06,680 this reserve for the country, and it'd be beneficial. 185 00:09:06,680 --> 00:09:08,640 Like, at least that's how it's being pitched. 186 00:09:08,720 --> 00:09:10,840 You're saying that that would be beneficial for the US 187 00:09:10,840 --> 00:09:14,840 government, but that wouldn't necessarily be beneficial for US 188 00:09:14,840 --> 00:09:16,560 individuals. Paying off the debt would be 189 00:09:16,560 --> 00:09:18,760 beneficial for US individuals, but. 190 00:09:18,840 --> 00:09:20,960 If they used it for that. Yes, if they used it, but you 191 00:09:20,960 --> 00:09:22,320 don't know what they will use. That's what we gave. 192 00:09:22,600 --> 00:09:25,080 And you don't know what the composition will be yet either 193 00:09:25,080 --> 00:09:28,040 of the well, because it's not a strategic Bitcoin reserve now. 194 00:09:28,040 --> 00:09:32,720 It's a digital asset reserve which is broad and diverse and 195 00:09:32,720 --> 00:09:34,240 inclusive. But we don't know yet what's 196 00:09:34,240 --> 00:09:36,240 going to be in there. And hopefully it'll be just 197 00:09:36,240 --> 00:09:40,720 Bitcoin, but there are obviously altcoin projects lobbying to be 198 00:09:40,720 --> 00:09:43,320 included, like Ripple. Yeah, absolutely. 199 00:09:43,800 --> 00:09:46,960 So what's really interesting about El Salvador is how much 200 00:09:46,960 --> 00:09:49,400 it's been focused solely on Bitcoin. 201 00:09:49,880 --> 00:09:53,240 It's like it's resisted that. How come? 202 00:09:53,920 --> 00:09:56,200 I think President Buchelli is a Bitcoiner. 203 00:09:56,400 --> 00:09:59,280 Trump is not a Bitcoiner. He spoke at, what was it, 204 00:09:59,280 --> 00:10:01,280 Nashville conference, but he's not a Bitcoiner. 205 00:10:01,280 --> 00:10:05,160 He's done a lot of other crypto related projects and I don't 206 00:10:05,160 --> 00:10:07,840 think he fully understands Bitcoin and you can kind of pick 207 00:10:07,840 --> 00:10:10,240 that level of understanding out from his speech. 208 00:10:10,440 --> 00:10:14,040 If you compare his speech to RFK speech, it's a world of 209 00:10:14,040 --> 00:10:18,000 difference. So he's more crypto, right? 210 00:10:18,000 --> 00:10:24,240 And that's probably why the US is not as Bitcoin maximalist as 211 00:10:24,240 --> 00:10:27,440 El Salvador is. So we'll see how things go over 212 00:10:27,440 --> 00:10:29,320 time. But there are a lot of lobbying 213 00:10:29,320 --> 00:10:32,440 groups in the US obviously, too, exchanges that are trying to 214 00:10:32,440 --> 00:10:34,320 push him towards, you know, crypto. 215 00:10:34,400 --> 00:10:37,560 And if it diversifies the reserve, that's probably why. 216 00:10:37,800 --> 00:10:41,840 So recently the IMF and El Salvador reached an agreement so 217 00:10:41,840 --> 00:10:43,600 that El Salvador would receive a loan. 218 00:10:43,640 --> 00:10:47,720 And I think a lot of people are seeking clarity in terms of is 219 00:10:47,720 --> 00:10:49,640 Bitcoin still legal tender in the country? 220 00:10:49,800 --> 00:10:53,280 Yeah. So it's confusing and I would 221 00:10:53,280 --> 00:10:56,520 say the breakdown is this, it's a a glass of water. 222 00:10:56,520 --> 00:10:58,040 It's kind of at the halfway mark. 223 00:10:58,040 --> 00:11:00,240 You can look at it as half full or half empty. 224 00:11:00,360 --> 00:11:06,000 So the Bitcoin law has been softened or you can say neutered 225 00:11:06,000 --> 00:11:09,240 a bit. They've amended it to comply 226 00:11:09,240 --> 00:11:12,040 with the IMF agreement almost to the letter. 227 00:11:12,080 --> 00:11:14,840 So everything they said in IMF agreement, they've amended it. 228 00:11:15,320 --> 00:11:19,480 But I think the key thing is the amendments leave the door kind 229 00:11:19,480 --> 00:11:23,000 of open. It's ambiguous. 230 00:11:23,560 --> 00:11:27,640 So it there is still a Bitcoin law, but Bitcoin is no longer a 231 00:11:27,640 --> 00:11:32,360 currency and it is legal tender, but it is now voluntary. 232 00:11:32,480 --> 00:11:35,720 So what does that mean exactly? It means Bitcoin is legal 233 00:11:35,720 --> 00:11:38,360 tender. There's no capital gains tax 234 00:11:38,360 --> 00:11:40,760 still. OK, there's another line in 235 00:11:40,760 --> 00:11:42,680 there that says you can use Bitcoin. 236 00:11:43,040 --> 00:11:46,680 The government can't now. So there is this Bitcoin law. 237 00:11:47,120 --> 00:11:51,000 Bitcoin is legal tender, but what is a legal tender without 238 00:11:51,000 --> 00:11:53,760 enforcement? Not that there was before it. 239 00:11:53,760 --> 00:11:56,920 It it always has been voluntary. So you can look at it both ways. 240 00:11:56,960 --> 00:12:00,080 Like some people are reacting very strongly and saying, you 241 00:12:00,080 --> 00:12:03,520 know, they capitulated. They bent the knee to the IMF 242 00:12:03,520 --> 00:12:06,280 and, you know, because they sold us out and they're very 243 00:12:06,280 --> 00:12:08,880 disillusioned. And then you have the promoters 244 00:12:09,000 --> 00:12:12,840 of El Salvador and Buckelly, and they're saying, yeah, we won. 245 00:12:13,360 --> 00:12:15,840 We're going to take the money and buy Bitcoin with IMF money. 246 00:12:16,160 --> 00:12:18,080 But I think the truth is somewhere in the middle, there 247 00:12:18,080 --> 00:12:21,280 was a compromise, there was adaptation. 248 00:12:21,400 --> 00:12:25,720 The law itself is weakened, but Bitcoin still has a standing 249 00:12:25,720 --> 00:12:29,040 here in El Salvador. So you take the good with the 250 00:12:29,040 --> 00:12:31,560 bad, and I think it makes sense in the long run. 251 00:12:32,080 --> 00:12:34,800 But Kelly is not the president of Bitcoin. 252 00:12:34,920 --> 00:12:36,640 He's the president of El Salvador. 253 00:12:36,640 --> 00:12:39,760 I mean, he has to do what he thinks is the right thing for 254 00:12:39,760 --> 00:12:41,600 this country. And if he thinks the right thing 255 00:12:41,600 --> 00:12:44,720 for the country is to secure the IMF loan, which will lead to 256 00:12:44,720 --> 00:12:48,160 other loans, then that's the way they should go. 257 00:12:48,360 --> 00:12:50,320 There's a couple things that are quite interesting to me. 258 00:12:50,320 --> 00:12:55,320 So it's still legal tender, but it's voluntary and El Salvador 259 00:12:55,320 --> 00:13:00,760 is still continuously buying it almost on a daily basis. 260 00:13:00,760 --> 00:13:04,520 Yeah, so I mean, sounds like a pretty good compromise. 261 00:13:04,520 --> 00:13:07,240 And then if you're coming at it from a Bitcoiners perspective, 262 00:13:07,320 --> 00:13:10,360 you would want Bitcoin to be adopted from the bottom up. 263 00:13:10,440 --> 00:13:13,600 You wouldn't want a top down type of thing. 264 00:13:13,680 --> 00:13:16,920 And what really sticks out to me, and I remember I, I asked 265 00:13:17,280 --> 00:13:23,040 Mrs. Majorga, the ambassador to the United States from El 266 00:13:23,040 --> 00:13:25,880 Salvador, and I asked for the same thing about capital gains. 267 00:13:25,880 --> 00:13:27,560 And I think that's the part that sticks out. 268 00:13:27,720 --> 00:13:29,280 Yeah. Because as long as there's no 269 00:13:29,280 --> 00:13:33,440 tax implications from you using Bitcoin as money, then what does 270 00:13:33,440 --> 00:13:35,920 it matter if it doesn't have? What does it matter if it has 271 00:13:35,920 --> 00:13:39,120 the official stamp of legal tender if people are just still 272 00:13:39,120 --> 00:13:40,520 using it to transact? Yeah. 273 00:13:40,520 --> 00:13:42,720 So there are things that we can do. 274 00:13:42,800 --> 00:13:45,320 So Gentry, we work on nation state Bitcoin adoption. 275 00:13:45,320 --> 00:13:49,680 There are interesting, interesting paths for us to use 276 00:13:49,720 --> 00:13:51,840 Bitcoin as legal tender as a currency. 277 00:13:51,960 --> 00:13:55,480 We can go to other countries that have laws recognizing 278 00:13:55,720 --> 00:13:58,920 foreign currencies like Guatemala, and we can say, you 279 00:13:58,920 --> 00:14:02,200 know, Mr. President, just accept it. 280 00:14:02,520 --> 00:14:04,360 It's a foreign currency. They have. 281 00:14:04,360 --> 00:14:07,440 There's precedent already for recognizing and using foreign 282 00:14:07,440 --> 00:14:08,840 currencies in different countries. 283 00:14:09,120 --> 00:14:12,320 So that's an angle that is interesting for Bitcoin and for 284 00:14:12,320 --> 00:14:15,520 Jan 3 to push. But we can live without that. 285 00:14:15,880 --> 00:14:18,880 Or we can get another country to make it a currency and follow 286 00:14:18,880 --> 00:14:21,920 that angle again. But I think the top down is 287 00:14:21,920 --> 00:14:26,720 beneficial still because launching TiVo, making these 288 00:14:26,720 --> 00:14:29,920 announcements, promoting Bitcoin and Bitcoin education 289 00:14:29,920 --> 00:14:35,440 initiatives, that is top down but is sort of an endorsement 290 00:14:35,800 --> 00:14:39,560 and a blessing. And a lot of people, they look 291 00:14:39,560 --> 00:14:42,280 towards the government, obviously not us, but they look 292 00:14:42,280 --> 00:14:44,760 towards the government for approval before they do 293 00:14:44,760 --> 00:14:48,200 something and it is something it is worth something. 294 00:14:48,520 --> 00:14:52,440 And do you, before I ask you about Jan 3, do you believe that 295 00:14:52,440 --> 00:14:54,800 this was a set back for nation state adoption? 296 00:14:55,400 --> 00:14:57,840 It's to be seen, OK? It's to be seen. 297 00:14:57,840 --> 00:15:00,080 It's not really a set back for a nation state adoption. 298 00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:02,920 I believe nation state adoption has already taken off. 299 00:15:03,160 --> 00:15:07,760 So once El Salvador made the move, we started going forth. 300 00:15:08,480 --> 00:15:11,440 You know, I started Jan 3. I brought on a lot of amazing 301 00:15:11,440 --> 00:15:16,080 people to the team and we put together this network of people 302 00:15:16,400 --> 00:15:19,760 going out and engaging. We've met with the president, 303 00:15:19,760 --> 00:15:21,280 Madera. He said, you know, I'm going to 304 00:15:21,280 --> 00:15:23,560 make Madera, you know, a place for Bitcoin. 305 00:15:24,400 --> 00:15:27,440 We met with presence in many countries around the world. 306 00:15:27,840 --> 00:15:32,040 We've met with regulators, politicians and even central 307 00:15:32,040 --> 00:15:34,520 banks. And the tide, I believe, has 308 00:15:34,520 --> 00:15:37,320 turned. We now have some central banks 309 00:15:37,320 --> 00:15:40,360 reaching out to us. Someone passed them our e-mail 310 00:15:40,360 --> 00:15:43,680 and we got an e-mail a few months back saying we would like 311 00:15:43,680 --> 00:15:45,840 to discuss hyperbicronization. No way. 312 00:15:45,920 --> 00:15:47,960 Yes. And then the emails are, you 313 00:15:47,960 --> 00:15:50,720 know, from the central bank. We said, yeah, we're happy to 314 00:15:50,720 --> 00:15:52,560 talk. We we know who introduced us. 315 00:15:52,560 --> 00:15:54,800 But then they sent a meeting invite, and the meeting invite 316 00:15:54,800 --> 00:15:57,080 was hyperbicronization. Was it like a Google Meet? 317 00:15:57,120 --> 00:15:59,960 Yes. So it was just on on the 318 00:15:59,960 --> 00:16:03,120 calendar, Google Calendar hyperbicronization and you're 319 00:16:03,120 --> 00:16:06,920 meeting with the central bank. Yes, that OK. 320 00:16:07,240 --> 00:16:08,360 All right. So we're, we're definitely 321 00:16:08,360 --> 00:16:09,800 heading in the, in the right direction. 322 00:16:10,360 --> 00:16:14,280 Before I ask you about the IMF and what what their motivation 323 00:16:14,280 --> 00:16:18,000 would be to do something like this with El Salvador or to ask 324 00:16:18,000 --> 00:16:20,880 El Salvador to compromise what what is Gen. 3? 325 00:16:21,040 --> 00:16:24,240 Gen. 3 is a company, we do a lot of things. 326 00:16:24,440 --> 00:16:27,480 Our mission is to accelerate Bitcoin adoption or hyper 327 00:16:27,480 --> 00:16:31,080 bitcoinization and basically anything that falls into this 328 00:16:31,080 --> 00:16:33,960 mission we will pursue. So one of the first things we 329 00:16:33,960 --> 00:16:37,800 did was launch the Aqua wallet, a non custodial Bitcoin in layer 330 00:16:37,800 --> 00:16:42,840 2 and stablecoin wallet, because we see an opportunity to onboard 331 00:16:43,000 --> 00:16:48,200 the 400 million or so Tether USDT users into Bitcoin. 332 00:16:48,320 --> 00:16:51,680 They're already using Tether and the sad thing is they're using 333 00:16:51,800 --> 00:16:54,520 Tether in altcoin wallet. So they're getting pushed, you 334 00:16:54,520 --> 00:16:58,240 know, NFTS and staking and defy and gambling and there is no 335 00:16:58,240 --> 00:17:02,320 Bitcoin wallet that's out there in a meaningful way showcasing 336 00:17:02,320 --> 00:17:06,000 Bitcoin layer 2IN Tether, just a really simple offering. 337 00:17:06,400 --> 00:17:09,400 And that was our mission to kind of onboard those people into 338 00:17:09,400 --> 00:17:12,560 Bitcoin and give a Bitcoin wallet that has a lot of 339 00:17:12,560 --> 00:17:14,800 utility. So that's one of the aspects of 340 00:17:14,800 --> 00:17:17,079 the business. We have Gentry Financial, we 341 00:17:17,079 --> 00:17:19,319 offer some financial products and services. 342 00:17:20,160 --> 00:17:23,160 One of them is at OTC. So we we've been running that 343 00:17:23,160 --> 00:17:25,720 for about a year now. And the goal is that we have a 344 00:17:25,720 --> 00:17:28,160 track record. And when the next country says I 345 00:17:28,160 --> 00:17:31,080 want to buy $10 billion of Bitcoin, we can say, well, we'll 346 00:17:31,080 --> 00:17:33,640 help you with that. And then we have the nation 347 00:17:33,640 --> 00:17:38,960 state push, which is just a lot of us in our free time, which is 348 00:17:38,960 --> 00:17:41,480 not that much. Plus a network of volunteers 349 00:17:41,480 --> 00:17:46,200 around the world that try to get us meetings with presidents and 350 00:17:47,080 --> 00:17:50,800 finance ministers, ministers of economy, all of these to push 351 00:17:50,800 --> 00:17:53,920 for Bitcoin adoption around the world at the top down level. 352 00:17:54,320 --> 00:17:56,160 So we kind of do both. We work on top down and 353 00:17:56,160 --> 00:17:57,760 grassroots. I love that. 354 00:17:57,760 --> 00:18:00,200 So just focused on hyper bitcoinization. 355 00:18:00,200 --> 00:18:02,600 I want to ask you about the Aqua wallet because I think a lot of 356 00:18:02,600 --> 00:18:07,200 bitcoiners expected that in the developing world you're going to 357 00:18:07,200 --> 00:18:12,520 see massive adoption of Bitcoin as people sought non sovereign 358 00:18:12,520 --> 00:18:15,360 alternatives because their local Fiat currencies were so 359 00:18:15,360 --> 00:18:17,640 terrible. But I think what we saw instead, 360 00:18:17,640 --> 00:18:21,200 what the market is telling us is we've we're seeing this massive 361 00:18:21,200 --> 00:18:25,400 adoption of, of, of stablecoins, specifically stablecoin Tether, 362 00:18:25,400 --> 00:18:30,280 like the the dollar stablecoin. I think it's quite interesting. 363 00:18:30,600 --> 00:18:32,360 I think a lot of Bitcoiners didn't expect that. 364 00:18:32,640 --> 00:18:37,800 But you know, being from Latin America myself originally, I 365 00:18:37,800 --> 00:18:40,880 think for a lot of people, it's hard to understand that they're 366 00:18:40,880 --> 00:18:44,800 just trying to get by, right? They don't have the luxury of 367 00:18:44,800 --> 00:18:48,920 being able to save. So just having a currency that 368 00:18:48,920 --> 00:18:53,560 that is stable, that they can earn in is a massive upgrade to, 369 00:18:54,720 --> 00:18:56,680 you know, where they could have been before. 370 00:18:56,880 --> 00:19:00,560 Yeah, I think it comes down to Alex Gladstein's book title. 371 00:19:00,560 --> 00:19:02,160 You know, check your financial privilege. 372 00:19:02,160 --> 00:19:03,400 Absolutely. A lot of people, a lot of 373 00:19:03,400 --> 00:19:06,640 Bitcoiners, especially really hardcore Maximus, so like 374 00:19:06,920 --> 00:19:10,800 Bitcoin and nothing else. But you have the luxury as a a 375 00:19:10,800 --> 00:19:13,640 Bitcoiner in the West to buy Bitcoin. 376 00:19:14,320 --> 00:19:17,040 A lot of people are earning, just trying to earn a living and 377 00:19:17,200 --> 00:19:19,120 get by. They may not have a bank 378 00:19:19,120 --> 00:19:20,760 account. They can't get a bank account 379 00:19:20,760 --> 00:19:24,360 because they don't have an address and they're excluded. 380 00:19:24,720 --> 00:19:27,120 The the financial system is A2 tier system. 381 00:19:27,720 --> 00:19:30,400 People can get in and people cannot get in. 382 00:19:30,440 --> 00:19:32,880 That's it. And it's engineered that way and 383 00:19:32,880 --> 00:19:35,840 they will always be that way. The only thing that can break 384 00:19:35,840 --> 00:19:39,880 that system is Bitcoin. So the reason why people are 385 00:19:39,880 --> 00:19:45,320 seeking Tether and stable coins is because they need access to 386 00:19:45,320 --> 00:19:47,320 that system. They don't yet understand 387 00:19:47,320 --> 00:19:50,840 Bitcoin, but they do want the dollar to hedge, right? 388 00:19:51,160 --> 00:19:53,600 So if you're a merchant and you're selling stuff and your 389 00:19:53,600 --> 00:19:57,120 suppliers want dollars or Argentinian pesos and you have 390 00:19:57,120 --> 00:19:59,600 Bitcoin. There is volatility in Bitcoin 391 00:19:59,680 --> 00:20:05,120 both ways, and we can't ignore the fact that some guy taking 392 00:20:05,120 --> 00:20:08,720 Bitcoin can lose a significant amount of money. 393 00:20:09,120 --> 00:20:12,640 Just by taking Bitcoin and not hedging because that's not their 394 00:20:12,640 --> 00:20:15,160 savings. It's not yet really savings. 395 00:20:15,160 --> 00:20:18,000 As long as there is volatility. It's savings for people that for 396 00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:20,240 people that can weather volatility, people that can't, 397 00:20:20,240 --> 00:20:22,920 they need a stable unit. And you know, bitcoins like to 398 00:20:22,920 --> 00:20:26,200 say, well, stable coins are not stable because the Fiat money is 399 00:20:26,200 --> 00:20:28,720 devaluing. But compared to the Argentinian 400 00:20:28,720 --> 00:20:32,160 peso, the dollar is gold, right? Or compared to the Bolivar, it's 401 00:20:32,160 --> 00:20:34,200 gold. And I think we just have to 402 00:20:34,480 --> 00:20:37,880 ignore people that criticize that and focus on onboarding 403 00:20:38,680 --> 00:20:43,560 these 400 million people to liquid Tether and Bitcoin. 404 00:20:43,680 --> 00:20:45,240 Well, it's a stepping stone. It is. 405 00:20:45,360 --> 00:20:47,520 And then there there's another part. 406 00:20:47,680 --> 00:20:51,080 The it's an interesting phenomenon too, because like as 407 00:20:51,080 --> 00:20:55,000 bitcoiners, shouldn't we be free market Maxis, right? 408 00:20:55,000 --> 00:20:59,160 And the market is telling us, right, that developing world 409 00:20:59,520 --> 00:21:02,480 massively in Latin America, they're really interested in 410 00:21:02,880 --> 00:21:06,800 getting a dollar rather than, you know, but Bitcoin, I think 411 00:21:06,800 --> 00:21:09,640 it's an educational thing. I think it's a survival thing. 412 00:21:09,760 --> 00:21:12,680 I think it's like the principle, like the hierarchy of needs, 413 00:21:12,920 --> 00:21:15,240 right? Like you, you just need to be 414 00:21:15,240 --> 00:21:17,280 able to survive. And then you start thinking. 415 00:21:17,320 --> 00:21:20,360 And I think it's a Trojan horse because it gives people 416 00:21:20,440 --> 00:21:24,440 essentially the ability to custody dollars in their mind on 417 00:21:24,440 --> 00:21:27,200 a digital wallet without having to go through a bank account. 418 00:21:27,240 --> 00:21:29,480 And then eventually they're going to come to the conclusion 419 00:21:29,480 --> 00:21:33,320 that all of us have had in the West, which is like the dollar 420 00:21:33,320 --> 00:21:35,840 is a scam too. And all roads lead to to 421 00:21:35,840 --> 00:21:38,320 Bitcoin. Now you said that Jan 3 focuses 422 00:21:38,320 --> 00:21:40,480 on hyper bitcoinization. What is that? 423 00:21:40,680 --> 00:21:43,760 Hyper bitcoinization is the point at which we no longer 424 00:21:44,200 --> 00:21:47,880 convert Bitcoin into Fiat. There's only Bitcoin left, so 425 00:21:47,880 --> 00:21:50,560 it's the end state really. And you could say it's 426 00:21:50,560 --> 00:21:52,320 hyperinflation of the dollar, really, right. 427 00:21:52,320 --> 00:21:54,680 When the dollar hyperinflates, then no one's going to want the 428 00:21:54,680 --> 00:21:56,360 dollar. They will just want Bitcoin. 429 00:21:56,360 --> 00:22:00,440 So yeah, it's the greatest demonetization event in human 430 00:22:00,440 --> 00:22:03,640 history. Basically all Fiat will die all 431 00:22:03,640 --> 00:22:07,280 at the same time very rapidly and everyone just wants Bitcoin 432 00:22:07,280 --> 00:22:11,080 and transacts in Bitcoin. Really, it's just so you don't 433 00:22:11,080 --> 00:22:14,520 see a world where the dollar and Bitcoin can coexist. 434 00:22:14,640 --> 00:22:16,640 I don't see it, but a lot of Bitcoiners do see it. 435 00:22:16,720 --> 00:22:21,000 I think Sailor is one of those, like if you look at his Bitcoin 436 00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:24,680 24 model, right, he actually tapers off the model after a 437 00:22:24,680 --> 00:22:30,600 number of years to kind of slow the death of Bitcoin, slow the 438 00:22:30,600 --> 00:22:33,480 death of Fiat. So Bitcoin growth tapers off. 439 00:22:33,480 --> 00:22:37,480 But I think monetary systems, especially when you're dealing 440 00:22:37,480 --> 00:22:43,680 with 100 X improvement over the old system and even over gold, 441 00:22:44,280 --> 00:22:48,560 is not a gradual taper. It's just a flip of the switch. 442 00:22:48,720 --> 00:22:51,200 Everyone's just going to switch to this new thing. 443 00:22:51,480 --> 00:22:54,200 I don't see that happening in Bitcoin. 444 00:22:54,280 --> 00:22:57,120 And we didn't even see that happen with the, the devaluation 445 00:22:57,120 --> 00:22:59,240 of the German mark. It wasn't that it's slowly 446 00:22:59,240 --> 00:23:02,080 tapered off and there was 1 Baker in this village over there 447 00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:05,400 that was still taking the mark, you know, five years later 448 00:23:05,600 --> 00:23:08,960 because, you know, you're that network effect of that money 449 00:23:08,960 --> 00:23:11,800 dies. So maybe some people have it in 450 00:23:11,800 --> 00:23:14,440 a drawer, but no one's actually going to exchange anything for 451 00:23:14,440 --> 00:23:17,280 the the Mark I. Mean that that's going to be a 452 00:23:17,800 --> 00:23:19,840 pretty big impact on the world. Right. 453 00:23:19,920 --> 00:23:23,240 That's why we're working on getting Bitcoin option out there 454 00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:28,720 as fast as we can to soften the fall, OK, It's like the 455 00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:31,680 foundation series, right? You can't stop the fall, 456 00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:35,360 although we can soften the fall. And, and, and, and it's going to 457 00:23:35,360 --> 00:23:37,920 radically change the world. And before I I get to that, like 458 00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:40,840 what are the implications of essentially Fiat ending? 459 00:23:40,840 --> 00:23:45,000 Because it's going to be essentially complete a change in 460 00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:47,560 the balance of power between the state and the individual. 461 00:23:47,560 --> 00:23:50,160 And I think there's very, very deep implications there. 462 00:23:50,160 --> 00:23:53,800 But what do you think were the motivations behind the IMF 463 00:23:53,800 --> 00:23:56,520 asking for those concessions from El Salvador? 464 00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:00,480 Are they scared of Bitcoin Samson? 465 00:24:01,440 --> 00:24:05,040 I think the IMF is definitely scared of Bitcoin because they 466 00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:07,880 are a Fiat organization. For those of people that don't 467 00:24:07,880 --> 00:24:10,000 know, they have their own shit coin. 468 00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:14,280 It's called the SDR, the SDR Strategic Drawing Rights, which 469 00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:16,280 means they can just kind of print their own money out of 470 00:24:16,280 --> 00:24:19,680 thin air too. But with Bitcoin, they're 471 00:24:19,680 --> 00:24:22,840 irrelevant or they need to adopt Bitcoin. 472 00:24:23,160 --> 00:24:25,720 It's their choice. Either you adapt or you die. 473 00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:29,840 But I think there's another darker angle here, which is 474 00:24:29,960 --> 00:24:34,640 they're basically a loan shark. Their job is to lend money in 475 00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:38,840 perpetuity to countries like El Salvador and, you know, 476 00:24:39,560 --> 00:24:41,600 developing places around the world. 477 00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:44,160 And this kind of puts them out of a job. 478 00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:48,480 So I think they had to fight for that or they wanted to save face 479 00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:51,280 because remember, they made a big stink about all the Bitcoin 480 00:24:51,280 --> 00:24:54,120 adoption in El Salvador that you know, you're going to fail, 481 00:24:54,120 --> 00:24:56,320 you're going to, it's dangerous and whatnot. 482 00:24:56,320 --> 00:25:00,000 And when they're wrong and they're incorrect and the the 483 00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:03,960 metrics prove them incorrect, vastly incorrect, I think they 484 00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:07,360 need something to save face. So maybe they insisted on these 485 00:25:07,360 --> 00:25:10,640 concessions just so they can say, yes, we got something. 486 00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:13,760 Yeah, it, it definitely felt that way. 487 00:25:13,760 --> 00:25:15,920 It definitely felt that way because it was like, ha, ha, we 488 00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:18,040 won. But if you, it's what you said 489 00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:20,760 with the analogy of the, the, the glass, right? 490 00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:22,240 It really depends on how you look at it. 491 00:25:22,240 --> 00:25:25,480 But the most important aspects, there's no capital gains 492 00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:28,120 implications. You could still use it as money. 493 00:25:28,280 --> 00:25:29,920 They're still buying it as reserve. 494 00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:32,920 So did they really win? Right. 495 00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:35,160 It it's like it, it's like an optics. 496 00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:38,160 It was for the optics more than the substance. 497 00:25:38,320 --> 00:25:40,680 Yeah, from my perspective. And as you said, it doesn't 498 00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:44,120 really matter because that's kind of government top down 499 00:25:44,120 --> 00:25:47,600 adoption is icing on a cake. The real important part is the 500 00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:50,120 grassroots adoption. And I think that still needs 501 00:25:50,120 --> 00:25:52,360 work, too. We should not be lying to 502 00:25:52,360 --> 00:25:54,120 ourselves and say, yeah, it's perfect already. 503 00:25:54,360 --> 00:25:57,680 We've got, you know, educational initiatives and we're good here. 504 00:25:57,960 --> 00:26:00,320 There's still a lot of people here in El Salvador that have no 505 00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:03,400 idea, and we still have a lot of work to do. 506 00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:07,000 Guys, I want to tell you about our sponsor bitcoinwell.com. 507 00:26:07,080 --> 00:26:09,800 It's the best place to build your automatic self custody 508 00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:12,160 Bitcoin stack. 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So I I want to talk about the 516 00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:38,040 end of Fiat, and this is a fascinating subject. 517 00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:41,120 You know, I think every Bitcoiner has read the book The 518 00:26:41,120 --> 00:26:44,960 Sovereign Individual by now at least a couple times in the book 519 00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:48,440 essentially makes the case that information technologies were 520 00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:51,960 essentially going to take away the importance away from nation 521 00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:55,480 States and from governments. And one of the biggest funding 522 00:26:55,480 --> 00:27:00,040 mechanisms of government of the state is their ability to print 523 00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:03,000 money out of thin air. Once that ability goes away, 524 00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:05,560 what is the role of government in society? 525 00:27:05,800 --> 00:27:08,080 Hopefully it's reduced massively. 526 00:27:08,120 --> 00:27:11,680 It the whole way that government works right now is very flawed. 527 00:27:11,840 --> 00:27:14,200 And I think about this a lot because I work on a game set in 528 00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:17,080 the future. So I'm trying to think how does 529 00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:20,000 government work in the future? And there's there are differing 530 00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:22,080 schools of thought. You know, some people, some 531 00:27:22,080 --> 00:27:28,120 Bitcoiners think anarchy and you know, it's just free for all. 532 00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:32,800 I think you still need some structure in place because there 533 00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:36,560 will be bad people that do bad things and you need to be able 534 00:27:36,560 --> 00:27:41,760 to deal with that somehow. And I think there will still be 535 00:27:41,760 --> 00:27:45,440 a need for relationships with other groups like diplomacy. 536 00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:49,480 So I think there is some role for government very scaled back, 537 00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:54,200 very administrative, not prescriptive in many ways, and 538 00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:57,400 based off of some sort of foundational codex of laws 539 00:27:57,400 --> 00:28:01,200 that's far simplified and mirroring a bit of Bitcoin. 540 00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:05,480 So consensus based rules where to do something, you need a 541 00:28:05,480 --> 00:28:10,800 super majority to consent to it. So there is no war, no emergency 542 00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:14,920 act, you know, no martial law, able to be done without active 543 00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:17,320 consent of people. So that's probably somewhere we 544 00:28:17,320 --> 00:28:19,640 go. But definitely Bitcoin will 545 00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:22,680 change that relationship because they can't print money, they 546 00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:25,520 can't take your money, so they have to. 547 00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:29,280 They just shrink naturally. And I think this is a good thing 548 00:28:29,880 --> 00:28:32,400 because most of the problems we have today is the government is 549 00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:36,240 trying to do everything. It starts out slowly, but as you 550 00:28:36,240 --> 00:28:39,760 give people free stuff, they want more free stuff and it just 551 00:28:39,760 --> 00:28:42,840 spirals out of control where you have some of those things 552 00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:45,000 uncovered by the Department of Government efficiency, which is 553 00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:48,560 the Treasury was just paying bills indiscriminately to 554 00:28:49,360 --> 00:28:52,880 terrorists too. So it just becomes a big machine 555 00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:58,160 that lives off of its own bureaucracy. 100% and it's self 556 00:28:58,160 --> 00:29:00,200 funded, it has a self funding mechanism. 557 00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:05,840 And unlike private business, there's no feedback like if you 558 00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:08,720 know you run Gen. 3 a certain way or if I run simply Bitcoin a 559 00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:10,520 certain way, we will go out of business. 560 00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:15,480 There is no feedback whatsoever with government and what we were 561 00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:18,880 saying, what Doge has been uncovering has been ridiculous. 562 00:29:18,880 --> 00:29:22,280 And then you're just like, what do you mean you sent $50 million 563 00:29:22,280 --> 00:29:23,840 to that? Like, what do you, what is this? 564 00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:26,600 And they don't care. But there's no there's no 565 00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:29,640 feedback mechanism incentivizing them to care. 566 00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:32,480 The feedback mechanism is elections, so you get feedback 567 00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:36,320 every four years and you know, people have very short attention 568 00:29:36,320 --> 00:29:40,880 spans and memories. So, you know, they forget and 569 00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:43,640 then you re elect them again. That's why Trudeau was elected 570 00:29:43,640 --> 00:29:44,600 twice. Yeah. 571 00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:49,400 So it's kind of sad, but Bitcoin gives me hope that it will break 572 00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:52,520 the system. So Bitcoin fixes this. 573 00:29:52,520 --> 00:29:55,200 It fixes this. It's a popularity contest to see 574 00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:57,160 who controls the money printer. Yeah. 575 00:29:57,480 --> 00:30:01,760 So what have been some of the difficulties that you have run 576 00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:07,440 into running Gen. 3, rolling out the Aqua wallet, really pushing 577 00:30:07,440 --> 00:30:10,720 forward, you know, Bitcoin adoption worldwide? 578 00:30:11,120 --> 00:30:13,880 What are some of the things that have happened since you launched 579 00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:17,400 Jan 3 that you would have never expected to run into? 580 00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:19,720 So let's let's see the Aqua side. 581 00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:22,560 The biggest challenge for us is we're trying to build it non 582 00:30:22,560 --> 00:30:25,600 custodially because I don't think you can make a custodial 583 00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:30,000 wallet that can scale to planet scale and most importantly on 584 00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:33,440 board the billions of people that cannot access the financial 585 00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:35,800 system. So it has to be non custodial if 586 00:30:35,800 --> 00:30:39,320 you're trying to get licenses everywhere until there's a 587 00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:41,360 massive sea change and everything is deregulated. 588 00:30:41,680 --> 00:30:45,920 It's just too slow, costly and burdensome to do that. 589 00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:48,680 So if you want to build it in a custodial, you have a new set of 590 00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:52,840 challenges, which is delivering a Venmo like experience without 591 00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:55,000 having custody. And that's actually very hard to 592 00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:56,760 do. And it slowed us down, but I 593 00:30:56,760 --> 00:30:59,840 think we're almost there. So we do a lot of interesting 594 00:30:59,920 --> 00:31:04,560 cryptography and tricks in there to make the the swap system and 595 00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:07,600 everything seamless. So it's like PayPal or Venmo 596 00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:10,040 here. It works, it just works. 597 00:31:10,440 --> 00:31:13,160 But it's all non custodial. So if a transaction, a swap 598 00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:16,240 fails, it just auto refunds back to your wallet. 599 00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:18,400 And that took us a lot of time to get right. 600 00:31:19,440 --> 00:31:23,080 We're trying to implement things like a lightning address, but 601 00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:25,440 non custodially too. So there's a lot of thinking 602 00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:29,200 that we have to put into how we do these things, but that that 603 00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:30,360 was the biggest challenge for us. 604 00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:34,160 And also we got a massive influx of users, which we didn't expect 605 00:31:34,600 --> 00:31:39,000 and that kind of made it more challenging to bring on more 606 00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:41,560 support people. And it's slow down dev as well. 607 00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:46,240 On the nation state side, I would say the challenge was we 608 00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:50,520 had the FTX fraud and blow up that slowed us down a bit. 609 00:31:50,520 --> 00:31:53,400 There was a number of countries we had meetings planned with. 610 00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:58,280 And because of that, Bitcoin seemed to be, you know, the 611 00:31:58,360 --> 00:32:00,880 pariah again. And they didn't want anything to 612 00:32:00,880 --> 00:32:06,240 do with us or Jan 3 or Bitcoin, even though it's FTX. 613 00:32:06,240 --> 00:32:09,520 And it's because they use FTT is collateral. 614 00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:13,560 But now that we're back, it's much easier. 615 00:32:13,560 --> 00:32:17,680 And especially with the talk of the strategic reserve in the US, 616 00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:20,600 that changes things a lot. So the ETFs changed the 617 00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:22,560 conversation. That made it easier. 618 00:32:23,120 --> 00:32:27,960 The Trump admin coming into power and formulating this path 619 00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:31,920 to a reserve has made it easier yet again for us. 620 00:32:32,400 --> 00:32:35,200 So tailwinds now. That's good. 621 00:32:35,240 --> 00:32:38,000 I mean, it's, it's very interesting to hear about the 622 00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:40,560 difficulties that you're running into with Aqua. 623 00:32:41,240 --> 00:32:43,120 I'm glad to hear that it's non custodial. 624 00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:45,760 How did you pull that off? Because I feel like non 625 00:32:45,760 --> 00:32:47,960 custodial lightning at the moment is an. 626 00:32:47,960 --> 00:32:49,560 Absolute nightmare. Yeah. 627 00:32:49,560 --> 00:32:53,320 So we we actually use a trick. We're using liquid as the base 628 00:32:53,320 --> 00:32:58,080 layer OK, and we're using bolts to do swaps to lightning, so. 629 00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:00,760 Interesting. It's not really a Lightning 630 00:33:00,760 --> 00:33:04,040 wallet and a lot of hardcore bitcoins were saying that's not 631 00:33:04,040 --> 00:33:06,000 a Lightning wallet. We never said it was a 632 00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:06,480 Lightning. Wallet. 633 00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:08,280 But does it matter if it does the same thing? 634 00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:11,800 Well, to some people it matters. So your choice is right now a 635 00:33:11,800 --> 00:33:17,280 custodial wallet where maybe you KYC, maybe you didn't. 636 00:33:17,280 --> 00:33:20,840 But if you didn't KYC, then you actually have limits and you 637 00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:24,040 have risk of, you know, losing your funds somehow. 638 00:33:26,000 --> 00:33:31,080 If it's a non custodial wallet like Phoenix or whatever, you 639 00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:35,920 actually have to do a lot more and there are cost like opening 640 00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:39,400 up a channel, rebalancing. Those are all touching the main 641 00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:43,920 chain, right? So people think it's cheap. 642 00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:46,680 They they say, well, I'm using Phoenix and I can pay one SAT, 643 00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:50,920 but you actually paid, you know, 4 bucks or 8 bucks when it was 644 00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:52,600 expensive to open the channel at that time. 645 00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:56,480 But if you have liquid, this as this stable middle layer and 646 00:33:56,480 --> 00:34:00,080 liquid's been around for 8-9 years now, very reliable rock 647 00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:02,520 solid block stream. We launched that when I was 648 00:34:02,520 --> 00:34:05,160 there. It's a a touch point. 649 00:34:05,160 --> 00:34:08,440 So like it's like a a mid step. So you don't have to go back to 650 00:34:08,440 --> 00:34:10,920 the main chain and you can go back up to lightning. 651 00:34:10,920 --> 00:34:14,560 It's a stable repository for your Bitcoin, which also has 652 00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:16,120 confidential transactions, by the way. 653 00:34:16,120 --> 00:34:18,719 So it gives you even better privacy. 654 00:34:19,120 --> 00:34:21,679 I believe the, the Phoenix guy said, you know, right now 655 00:34:21,679 --> 00:34:26,480 because we're the LSP and whatever we it's not using 656 00:34:26,480 --> 00:34:29,320 Phoenix doesn't give you better privacy than using wallet 657 00:34:29,320 --> 00:34:31,840 Satoshi or anything else. They can see everything. 658 00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:35,920 But with Aqua, you have liquid with confidential transactions 659 00:34:36,199 --> 00:34:40,440 and we do swaps with bolts. So it's probably the most 660 00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:42,679 private way to use Lightning right now, other than running 661 00:34:42,679 --> 00:34:45,600 everything yourself. Why do you guys decide to? 662 00:34:45,600 --> 00:34:48,159 Use Liquid. I think Liquid is a great 663 00:34:48,159 --> 00:34:53,679 technology and it is. It was always needed because 664 00:34:54,040 --> 00:34:56,280 it's a way to scale Bitcoin with side chains. 665 00:34:56,800 --> 00:35:00,040 So Liquid it's anchored to Bitcoin. 666 00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:03,480 There can only be potentially 21 million coins in Liquid because 667 00:35:03,480 --> 00:35:05,480 you have to peg them into the Liquid network. 668 00:35:06,320 --> 00:35:09,160 But it gives you that confidentiality of confidential 669 00:35:09,160 --> 00:35:12,080 transactions and you can unblind transactions if you need to 670 00:35:12,080 --> 00:35:14,360 unblind it. But this is actually a very 671 00:35:14,360 --> 00:35:17,520 important thing, not just for lightning privacy, but for 672 00:35:17,520 --> 00:35:20,640 stable coin privacy too. So my friend Russell was telling 673 00:35:20,640 --> 00:35:23,840 me it's actually dangerous to use stable coins in Latin 674 00:35:23,840 --> 00:35:26,240 America. The current ones like Tron and 675 00:35:26,240 --> 00:35:29,400 Etherium and Tron because those are account based systems. 676 00:35:29,840 --> 00:35:32,400 Liquid is UTXO base. It's a fork of Bitcoin. 677 00:35:32,400 --> 00:35:36,920 So it's 99% the same code battle tested as Bitcoin, but with the 678 00:35:36,920 --> 00:35:39,480 confidentiality. When I send you Tether on 679 00:35:39,480 --> 00:35:42,120 Liquid, you can't see how much Tether I have. 680 00:35:42,400 --> 00:35:45,400 Whereas if you're using Tron, you send me that. 681 00:35:45,640 --> 00:35:47,720 You know, let's say my cousin's a gangster. 682 00:35:48,120 --> 00:35:49,800 He'll say like, yeah, who's that guy? 683 00:35:49,800 --> 00:35:52,520 And how much Tron does, how much Tether does he have? 684 00:35:53,040 --> 00:35:56,880 And then he goes and robs you or tells someone else to go rob 685 00:35:56,880 --> 00:35:58,280 you. And that's a real danger. 686 00:35:58,280 --> 00:36:01,640 I think that has not really been fully crystallized in people's 687 00:36:02,160 --> 00:36:05,120 understanding yet, but I think they will understand. 688 00:36:05,360 --> 00:36:07,440 But above that, liquid transactions are super cheap 689 00:36:07,440 --> 00:36:08,640 now. They're about 3 cents. 690 00:36:09,240 --> 00:36:13,080 There was a big upgrade to the network as part of a project 691 00:36:13,080 --> 00:36:17,320 tsunami to make everything faster and cheaper, and now 692 00:36:17,600 --> 00:36:20,000 Bitcoin is probably the liquid is probably the cheapest way to 693 00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:23,760 transact stable coins in Latam in the most reliable fashion. 694 00:36:24,000 --> 00:36:27,080 Interesting. And, and I didn't know that. 695 00:36:28,040 --> 00:36:31,200 Very, very interesting. So what, what do you think 696 00:36:31,200 --> 00:36:35,560 happens to the price of Bitcoin if the strategic Bitcoin reserve 697 00:36:35,560 --> 00:36:37,440 thing does go through in the United States? 698 00:36:37,480 --> 00:36:40,800 It looks like it's going to happen on the state level before 699 00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:42,400 the federal level. Well. 700 00:36:42,640 --> 00:36:47,680 As Adam Back says, that's the path to 1,000,000. $1 million 701 00:36:47,680 --> 00:36:50,240 Bitcoin Samson? When's that going to happen? 702 00:36:51,160 --> 00:36:52,880 My guess is is it's going to be this year. 703 00:36:53,120 --> 00:36:56,160 It's going to be this year. You look at all the factors 704 00:36:56,160 --> 00:36:59,600 we're facing, you have. That's a 10X. 705 00:37:00,160 --> 00:37:03,920 Bitcoin has 17X in the past. There is no, there is no upper 706 00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:06,360 bound to Bitcoin. So there there are people talk 707 00:37:06,360 --> 00:37:07,720 about diminishing returns, right? 708 00:37:07,760 --> 00:37:11,440 But if it's a step change, just like the failure of the the 709 00:37:11,440 --> 00:37:14,280 German mark, it's not a gradual thing and there's no upper 710 00:37:14,280 --> 00:37:16,680 bound. It's just gone and you use a new 711 00:37:16,680 --> 00:37:20,280 thing now, right? It's like, yeah, we don't use 712 00:37:20,280 --> 00:37:22,320 horses for transportation anymore. 713 00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:26,560 You know, we came here on a car, on airplanes and whatnot, so 714 00:37:26,560 --> 00:37:29,280 used to use a new thing and Bitcoin is that new thing 715 00:37:29,280 --> 00:37:32,760 because it's 100 if not 1000 times better than anything else 716 00:37:33,080 --> 00:37:35,520 we've used as money in human history. 717 00:37:36,280 --> 00:37:38,200 But back to the point, what do we have? 718 00:37:38,200 --> 00:37:39,960 We have MicroStrategy buying non-stop. 719 00:37:40,800 --> 00:37:46,760 We have ETFs which are a doorway to legacy Fiat money. 720 00:37:47,400 --> 00:37:50,640 If you go back to all the previous bull runs, where we get 721 00:37:51,240 --> 00:37:54,360 bogged down is the exchanges because that's the touch point 722 00:37:54,360 --> 00:37:57,040 right. That's how you convert Fiat into 723 00:37:57,040 --> 00:37:59,760 Bitcoin. And if you remember back in the 724 00:37:59,760 --> 00:38:04,680 old bull runs, it was like Krakens backlog for KYC ING 725 00:38:04,680 --> 00:38:08,600 people was three months long. Coinbase same thing. 726 00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:12,160 It's that's the bottleneck because to comply as an 727 00:38:12,160 --> 00:38:15,720 exchange, you have to KYC everyone and you don't keep 1000 728 00:38:15,720 --> 00:38:20,120 person KYC team, right. You have to keep a team that you 729 00:38:20,120 --> 00:38:23,240 can feed and you can't scale it up that quickly. 730 00:38:23,240 --> 00:38:24,840 So that's kind of where it tapers off. 731 00:38:25,280 --> 00:38:28,480 But with the ETFs, there is no bottleneck anymore. 732 00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:33,080 Central banks can buy ETFs. So any demand for Bitcoin can 733 00:38:33,080 --> 00:38:37,760 now be satiated without any problem whatsoever. 734 00:38:38,160 --> 00:38:39,920 And that is really big. That's why I actually thought 735 00:38:40,320 --> 00:38:44,560 2024 was going to be the year we hit 1,000,000 because I don't 736 00:38:44,560 --> 00:38:46,680 think people fully understand how big that is. 737 00:38:47,000 --> 00:38:51,280 Central banks can buy ETFs. There is no barrier for Fiat 738 00:38:51,280 --> 00:38:54,160 money entering Bitcoin. But I think this year will hit 739 00:38:54,160 --> 00:38:57,240 it since we missed last year. But you have micro strategy, you 740 00:38:57,240 --> 00:39:00,240 have ETFs, you have the removal of the barrier, you have nation 741 00:39:00,240 --> 00:39:05,000 States and what else. There's just so much going on, 742 00:39:05,000 --> 00:39:08,640 like real adoption of Bitcoin. So I just can't see it not 743 00:39:08,640 --> 00:39:13,320 hitting one million this year. And the other thing is you see a 744 00:39:13,440 --> 00:39:15,200 lot of people predicting prices, right? 745 00:39:15,840 --> 00:39:20,120 They like to be cautious and realistic and say, yeah, it can 746 00:39:20,120 --> 00:39:25,240 get to 150, it can get to 200, it can get to 250. 747 00:39:25,640 --> 00:39:27,400 Because I think they want to sound reasonable. 748 00:39:27,720 --> 00:39:30,960 Nobody wants to be the crazy guy saying it's got a 10X like me. 749 00:39:31,480 --> 00:39:35,600 They want to be, you know, I'm, I'm a, I'm a serious person with 750 00:39:35,600 --> 00:39:40,840 realistic projections, but Bitcoin is not a realistic 751 00:39:40,840 --> 00:39:43,480 thing. It's a 0 sum game. 752 00:39:43,720 --> 00:39:47,000 Either you're going to use Bitcoin or you're going to 753 00:39:47,000 --> 00:39:49,200 starve. So it's all or none. 754 00:39:49,960 --> 00:39:52,960 And when you get to different levels, like when you get to 755 00:39:53,000 --> 00:39:56,040 100K, when you get to 100K, it's different, right? 756 00:39:56,360 --> 00:40:00,320 When you get to 200 K, the world again looks very, very 757 00:40:00,320 --> 00:40:02,480 different. Just just close your eyes and 758 00:40:02,480 --> 00:40:05,960 imagine what does the world look like when Bitcoin is at 500 K? 759 00:40:07,320 --> 00:40:11,400 That's you're reaching half of gold's market cap at that point. 760 00:40:11,400 --> 00:40:16,000 You know, that will demonetize gold if it doesn't get 761 00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:18,960 demonetized earlier. Because there's talk of, you 762 00:40:18,960 --> 00:40:22,720 know, the US selling gold to buy Bitcoin to fund their reserves 763 00:40:22,960 --> 00:40:25,920 because that would take out their enemies who have been 764 00:40:26,800 --> 00:40:29,080 accumulating gold for the last decade, right? 765 00:40:29,400 --> 00:40:32,360 But disregard that Bitcoin is sitting at 500 K. 766 00:40:32,920 --> 00:40:36,520 We are the second largest asset now behind gold. 767 00:40:37,240 --> 00:40:42,240 It's a very different landscape. And at that point, do you think 768 00:40:42,240 --> 00:40:45,600 most people would still want to sell their Bitcoin to get Fiat, 769 00:40:45,880 --> 00:40:49,400 or would most people now insist on being paid in Bitcoin? 770 00:40:50,120 --> 00:40:53,800 I think it's the latter. So from there, you just two X, 771 00:40:54,240 --> 00:40:55,760 yeah. And then you're #1. 772 00:40:56,840 --> 00:41:00,120 And you know, it's, it's interesting because right, so I 773 00:41:00,120 --> 00:41:03,960 come from the, the bullish school of thought too, but my, 774 00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:06,600 my thought process is a little bit different. 775 00:41:07,160 --> 00:41:13,440 This cycle reminds me of 2017 and 2017. 776 00:41:13,640 --> 00:41:19,200 We went from $1000 in January to the end of 2017. 777 00:41:19,200 --> 00:41:23,640 We went to 20K. No one had any idea it was going 778 00:41:23,640 --> 00:41:26,160 to happen in January. In fact, in January the price 779 00:41:26,160 --> 00:41:31,640 stayed at $1000. 2020 one happened, and I believe 2021 was 780 00:41:31,640 --> 00:41:34,800 artificially cut short because of the China mining ban, because 781 00:41:34,800 --> 00:41:38,280 of FTX, because of Celsius. And I think people have 782 00:41:38,280 --> 00:41:43,080 forgotten what a true Bitcoin bull market feels like. 783 00:41:43,480 --> 00:41:49,360 And I'm getting the same type of kind of consensus understanding, 784 00:41:49,360 --> 00:41:53,680 which is 150K200K Bitcoin. You and I both know that when 785 00:41:53,680 --> 00:41:57,480 everybody on X or Twitter is calling for the same price 786 00:41:57,480 --> 00:42:01,520 predictions, Bitcoin does the exact effing opposite. 787 00:42:01,760 --> 00:42:05,920 So either we're going to underperform, which I doubt, or 788 00:42:05,920 --> 00:42:09,640 we're going to overperform, which no one is expecting more 789 00:42:09,640 --> 00:42:13,480 than 200,000, more than 300,000. That's my thought process at 790 00:42:14,040 --> 00:42:16,760 kind of getting to, I don't know if it's a million, but half a 791 00:42:16,760 --> 00:42:18,480 million. I wouldn't be surprised at all 792 00:42:18,480 --> 00:42:21,640 if we hit it this year. I think it's, it's just, I don't 793 00:42:21,640 --> 00:42:24,120 know what to call it. It's like a a precipice effect, 794 00:42:24,120 --> 00:42:26,360 you know, like you're standing on the edge of the Cliff. 795 00:42:26,520 --> 00:42:30,480 People are scared because, yeah, we can fall a lot from 100K. 796 00:42:30,760 --> 00:42:33,240 And that's why you kind of like hover at that area for a while 797 00:42:33,440 --> 00:42:36,440 because it's scary looking down. Like what if we go to 70 and you 798 00:42:36,440 --> 00:42:38,680 remember when we had a little dip, everyone is saying, oh, 799 00:42:38,680 --> 00:42:40,600 we're going to go back to 70. Yeah. 800 00:42:41,040 --> 00:42:45,560 But when things solidify, then you kind of go up and everyone 801 00:42:45,560 --> 00:42:48,480 that was panicking and looking down, looking off that 802 00:42:48,480 --> 00:42:51,200 precipice, they've been left behind already. 803 00:42:51,800 --> 00:42:55,160 And because the supply is so limited right now and the demand 804 00:42:55,160 --> 00:42:58,520 is so high, it's just going to shoot up and you're going to see 805 00:42:58,520 --> 00:43:05,000 that kind of 2017 face melting shock and awe raise, rise in 806 00:43:05,000 --> 00:43:06,760 Bitcoin price. Absolutely. 807 00:43:06,760 --> 00:43:11,360 And I think, I think the reason that I would, it's because no 808 00:43:11,360 --> 00:43:13,880 one's seeing it. Everyone has again, this general 809 00:43:13,880 --> 00:43:17,480 consensus of the price. No one is really, no one's 810 00:43:17,480 --> 00:43:19,880 really expecting it. And Bitcoin tends to do the 811 00:43:19,880 --> 00:43:24,320 things that everyone least expects, especially if this 812 00:43:24,320 --> 00:43:27,760 strategic Bitcoin reserve thing comes to fruition. 813 00:43:27,760 --> 00:43:31,680 Like I think it's going to happen, you know, over the price 814 00:43:31,680 --> 00:43:34,600 is just going to 2X or 3X overnight because it's 815 00:43:34,600 --> 00:43:37,960 essentially a rubber stamp of approval by the most powerful 816 00:43:37,960 --> 00:43:39,640 government on the face of the planet. 817 00:43:39,800 --> 00:43:44,120 Now my question to you is what happens when central banks that 818 00:43:44,120 --> 00:43:47,600 have the ability to essentially create money out of nothing 819 00:43:47,880 --> 00:43:51,760 start using that ability to buy something that has absolute 820 00:43:51,760 --> 00:43:55,080 scarcity, scarcity like Bitcoin? Omega candles. 821 00:43:56,120 --> 00:43:58,560 LA is coming out of a volcano. Perhaps. 822 00:43:58,560 --> 00:44:01,760 Perhaps so, yeah. But what happens? 823 00:44:01,760 --> 00:44:04,600 What breaks? I think they can go for a while 824 00:44:04,840 --> 00:44:08,360 and print because the world seems to take time, takes time 825 00:44:08,360 --> 00:44:11,080 to adjust. If you look back at the low 826 00:44:11,080 --> 00:44:14,360 lockdowns and the pandemic or pandemic, when they shut 827 00:44:14,360 --> 00:44:16,120 everything down, the prices didn't jump. 828 00:44:16,600 --> 00:44:20,520 It took two to three years, right, for kind of the normal 829 00:44:20,520 --> 00:44:23,960 person to understand or even anybody in the supply chain 830 00:44:23,960 --> 00:44:25,400 understand what's fully happened. 831 00:44:25,920 --> 00:44:27,400 And then you saw the inflation come. 832 00:44:28,000 --> 00:44:31,920 So all the money printing, the shutdown of economies, it didn't 833 00:44:31,920 --> 00:44:34,720 really kick in until two years later, almost, right? 834 00:44:35,320 --> 00:44:38,280 And I think it's the same. Everything takes time for the 835 00:44:38,280 --> 00:44:41,240 world to adjust to. They haven't really fully 836 00:44:41,240 --> 00:44:44,760 adjusted or understood the impact of the ETFs and central 837 00:44:44,760 --> 00:44:46,960 banks being able to gain exposure to the ETFs. 838 00:44:47,520 --> 00:44:50,280 We also forgot to talk about the Czech Republic bank, central 839 00:44:50,280 --> 00:44:52,840 bank. They've approved buying now too. 840 00:44:53,120 --> 00:44:56,680 So what you're talking about Nico's, it's like up on the 841 00:44:56,680 --> 00:44:59,400 cusp. But yeah, they can probably 842 00:44:59,400 --> 00:45:02,440 print and buy for some time because the ordinary man in the 843 00:45:02,440 --> 00:45:05,440 street is not going to fully understand what's going on. 844 00:45:05,800 --> 00:45:08,600 The pot is boiling too slowly for them to realize. 845 00:45:09,640 --> 00:45:13,560 If they would have understood the impact, you know, they would 846 00:45:13,560 --> 00:45:16,320 have probably bought Bitcoin already just from try to hedge 847 00:45:16,320 --> 00:45:20,320 against inflation alone, yeah. Do you think? 848 00:45:20,320 --> 00:45:24,240 Cycles are dead. I don't really believe in 849 00:45:24,240 --> 00:45:27,280 cycles. I think if you flip a coin four 850 00:45:27,280 --> 00:45:29,800 times and then you flip it four times and you get the same 851 00:45:29,800 --> 00:45:31,840 pattern, it's a coincidence. Go. 852 00:45:31,840 --> 00:45:35,400 Each flip is independent. And there are a lot of arguments 853 00:45:35,400 --> 00:45:39,520 of why we have cycles, such as it's tied to the halving or it's 854 00:45:39,520 --> 00:45:43,800 tied to elections. But again, I believe in phase 855 00:45:43,800 --> 00:45:48,320 transition step changes, you just go to Bitcoin and when you 856 00:45:48,320 --> 00:45:51,680 go to Bitcoin, there's no cycle. And This is why the power law 857 00:45:51,680 --> 00:45:55,360 guys hate me because they expect it's going to progress in a 858 00:45:55,360 --> 00:45:57,960 meaningful way. Whereas my prediction with the 859 00:45:57,960 --> 00:45:59,640 mega candles and everything is it. 860 00:46:00,120 --> 00:46:03,920 What is an Omega candle? And a mega candle is 100,100. 861 00:46:03,920 --> 00:46:05,840 $1000 candle handle. On a day. 862 00:46:07,640 --> 00:46:09,720 And you think that's going to happen sooner rather than later? 863 00:46:09,720 --> 00:46:12,760 It's already happening in other trading pairs. 864 00:46:13,240 --> 00:46:16,800 That's right, Egyptian pound Turkish lira to Bitcoin. 865 00:46:17,160 --> 00:46:22,280 They already have Omega candles. OK, this is very fitting talking 866 00:46:22,280 --> 00:46:24,800 about Omega candles in front of an Omega volcano. 867 00:46:26,120 --> 00:46:30,120 So I'm assuming that you don't believe in diminishing. 868 00:46:30,120 --> 00:46:32,760 Returns. I don't believe in diminishing 869 00:46:32,760 --> 00:46:34,160 returns. OK. 870 00:46:35,200 --> 00:46:39,440 What's the diminishing returns on air travel from boat travel? 871 00:46:40,000 --> 00:46:42,320 You know, we just have air travel. 872 00:46:42,320 --> 00:46:45,040 You take boats for leisure now? Yeah, yeah. 873 00:46:45,040 --> 00:46:46,520 You don't use it for transportation. 874 00:46:46,800 --> 00:46:52,280 So you've said in interviews in the past that the US dollar is 875 00:46:52,280 --> 00:46:56,080 gonna rebase or debase, rebase, rebase. 876 00:46:56,080 --> 00:46:57,840 I've never heard that term. What does that mean? 877 00:46:57,960 --> 00:47:00,200 The US dollar is gonna rebase to Bitcoin. 878 00:47:00,720 --> 00:47:04,240 It's sort of part of that transition to a new money. 879 00:47:05,560 --> 00:47:09,480 It's an attempt to shore up and strengthen a currency. 880 00:47:09,920 --> 00:47:13,160 So you can either do that with gold or anything, but you can 881 00:47:13,160 --> 00:47:15,600 also do that with Bitcoin. So you can kind of say, you 882 00:47:15,600 --> 00:47:18,840 know, we're going to peg the dollar to Bitcoin now and the 883 00:47:18,840 --> 00:47:23,360 debt is convertible, redeemable from Bitcoin, so one SAT per 884 00:47:23,360 --> 00:47:25,920 dollar. One SAP is that $10 million 885 00:47:25,920 --> 00:47:30,960 Bitcoin. 100 million. Oh my God, is the network ready 886 00:47:31,040 --> 00:47:33,120 for that? Is the network ready for a 10X? 887 00:47:33,840 --> 00:47:36,120 Like the amount of people that are going to come on board? 888 00:47:36,560 --> 00:47:39,000 Is the is the main chain able to handle that? 889 00:47:39,360 --> 00:47:42,720 I think so. I think people have kind of 890 00:47:42,800 --> 00:47:45,680 overlooked side chains because they're looking for a more 891 00:47:45,920 --> 00:47:50,640 shiny, interesting things, more complex things that sound cool. 892 00:47:50,880 --> 00:47:55,400 But side chains are relatively simple, very reliable, and are 893 00:47:55,400 --> 00:48:00,080 proven to be a way that we can scale Bitcoin with just what we 894 00:48:00,080 --> 00:48:03,320 have now. Zero change to consensus rules. 895 00:48:03,560 --> 00:48:07,280 No need to ask devs for permission or to have a civil 896 00:48:07,280 --> 00:48:09,840 war or do anything. You just spin up your side 897 00:48:09,840 --> 00:48:12,800 chain. And we have Liquid, which has 898 00:48:12,800 --> 00:48:15,680 been running for, you know, getting close to a decade now. 899 00:48:15,840 --> 00:48:20,200 And Liquid is not decentralized. It's a run by federation. 900 00:48:20,560 --> 00:48:23,520 We can make the blocks bigger, we can ramp it up. 901 00:48:23,520 --> 00:48:25,440 We can scale it up, make it more robust. 902 00:48:25,720 --> 00:48:29,480 You can have other Liquid federations and that is the way 903 00:48:29,480 --> 00:48:32,680 that right now today we can scale Bitcoin to meet the needs. 904 00:48:33,000 --> 00:48:36,280 So, you know, Aqua uses liquid now, but let's say liquid is 905 00:48:36,440 --> 00:48:39,560 packed in full, you know, maybe there's another liquid. 906 00:48:39,560 --> 00:48:42,760 Maybe El Salvador has a side chain, maybe the Czech Republic 907 00:48:42,760 --> 00:48:45,200 has side chain. We can support all of these and 908 00:48:45,200 --> 00:48:48,000 we can perform atomic swaps between different side chains. 909 00:48:48,560 --> 00:48:51,040 So I don't see any issue with scaling Bitcoin. 910 00:48:51,440 --> 00:48:56,200 The question is how you want to scale it, because if you're 911 00:48:56,200 --> 00:48:58,520 going for orthodoxy, then you're a big blocker. 912 00:48:58,520 --> 00:49:04,680 And you say we need giga megs, we need TB size blocks, Good 913 00:49:04,680 --> 00:49:07,880 luck. But if you're going to be 914 00:49:07,880 --> 00:49:12,680 pragmatic, use the technology that we have now and meet the 915 00:49:12,680 --> 00:49:14,360 demand, we can do all of that already. 916 00:49:15,520 --> 00:49:20,200 So it's Bitcoin is able to scale, but it has to scale on 917 00:49:20,600 --> 00:49:21,840 layer 2. Yes. 918 00:49:22,360 --> 00:49:24,400 Gotcha. And the technology needs to be 919 00:49:24,400 --> 00:49:26,360 built out. I think you're solving that with 920 00:49:26,360 --> 00:49:28,640 the Aqua and the the fancy tech in the side. 921 00:49:28,640 --> 00:49:31,800 And again, as a user, you don't really care what's happening in 922 00:49:31,800 --> 00:49:33,880 the background. Like the vast majority of people 923 00:49:33,880 --> 00:49:35,480 don't really care. The vast majority of people 924 00:49:35,480 --> 00:49:38,040 really care is does it work? Yeah. 925 00:49:38,040 --> 00:49:40,800 So I mean, stable coins again are another interesting example. 926 00:49:41,240 --> 00:49:43,080 A lot of people down there don't care. 927 00:49:43,080 --> 00:49:47,200 They're using Binance, right? To transact stable coins send 928 00:49:47,200 --> 00:49:50,360 this to my Binance account, They're using Ethereum Tron. 929 00:49:50,480 --> 00:49:54,440 They're not Ethereum Maxis or Tron fans. 930 00:49:54,720 --> 00:49:58,760 They just want the the dollar to save some money. 931 00:49:58,960 --> 00:50:01,960 Yeah, right. And they will move, they're 932 00:50:01,960 --> 00:50:05,280 moving from Ethereum. They move from Ethereum to Tron 933 00:50:05,280 --> 00:50:08,760 because Ethereum stable coin transactions were $8 or 934 00:50:08,760 --> 00:50:11,960 something like that, right? Tron was a, you know, sub 935 00:50:11,960 --> 00:50:16,160 dollar, but still around that. And now Tron is at $2.00 and now 936 00:50:16,160 --> 00:50:17,440 they're moving to other things too. 937 00:50:17,880 --> 00:50:21,160 So there's no loyalty. It's these are just transport 938 00:50:21,160 --> 00:50:24,120 rails to people. They just care about being able 939 00:50:24,120 --> 00:50:26,480 to move money. Yeah. 940 00:50:26,720 --> 00:50:28,520 And, and that's the vast majority of people. 941 00:50:28,520 --> 00:50:31,920 And I think, I think Bitcoiners forget that on X is that, you 942 00:50:31,920 --> 00:50:34,320 know, the vast majority of people are, are really looking 943 00:50:34,320 --> 00:50:36,360 at the utility aspect of it. Yeah. 944 00:50:37,400 --> 00:50:39,760 What would you say to someone that feels they're late to 945 00:50:39,760 --> 00:50:41,880 Bitcoin now that it's at $100,000? 946 00:50:44,080 --> 00:50:47,840 That's a good question. Like I like to say, we're early. 947 00:50:48,480 --> 00:50:50,640 But still. Yeah, I think we're still early, 948 00:50:50,640 --> 00:50:55,480 I mean until we see Bitcoin. Does they have 100 X in it? 949 00:50:56,520 --> 00:51:00,120 Yeah, well, I mean, how much more to go to dollar set parity? 950 00:51:00,440 --> 00:51:04,160 Yeah, right. But here's that exercise. 951 00:51:04,160 --> 00:51:07,440 Next time you're stopped at an intersection at a red light, 952 00:51:07,640 --> 00:51:10,920 watch people crossing on the crosswalk and ask yourself how 953 00:51:10,920 --> 00:51:14,360 many of them know about Bitcoin? Probably not many of them, 954 00:51:14,400 --> 00:51:17,320 right? And you can test this, like, go 955 00:51:17,600 --> 00:51:20,360 to a restaurant and say, can I pay in Bitcoin, You know, watch 956 00:51:20,360 --> 00:51:23,720 them laugh at you, and then you can understand exactly how early 957 00:51:23,720 --> 00:51:25,200 you are. Yeah. 958 00:51:25,520 --> 00:51:30,160 Where are we on the S curve? Still early adopter, still 959 00:51:30,160 --> 00:51:31,080 early. Adopter. 960 00:51:31,080 --> 00:51:32,640 Early adopter. Gotcha. 961 00:51:33,040 --> 00:51:37,080 What advice would you give to your younger self if you knew, 962 00:51:37,600 --> 00:51:39,840 you know, you got into Bitcoin where Bitcoin was not as 963 00:51:39,840 --> 00:51:42,120 certain? I got into Bitcoin class of 964 00:51:42,120 --> 00:51:44,760 2016. I remember the, the block, the, 965 00:51:44,880 --> 00:51:46,720 you know, the, the, the block wars. 966 00:51:46,720 --> 00:51:52,240 It was not fun. Now we know that Jihan and want 967 00:51:52,240 --> 00:51:54,360 to be specific with the names, but let's just say that they 968 00:51:54,360 --> 00:51:58,000 were artificially making the hash rate go higher and there 969 00:51:58,000 --> 00:52:00,400 are some doing they were doing some interesting things with 970 00:52:00,400 --> 00:52:04,840 exchanges to the volume and there was a lot of uncertainty 971 00:52:04,840 --> 00:52:06,880 at that point. You, you questioned yourself as 972 00:52:06,880 --> 00:52:09,040 a Bitcoiner and said, is this Bitcoin cash thing? 973 00:52:09,040 --> 00:52:11,800 Like are they right? You know, like now we know after 974 00:52:11,800 --> 00:52:13,360 the fact. Well, I knew you knew. 975 00:52:14,120 --> 00:52:16,640 Now we know after the fact, yeah, but but it's because I got 976 00:52:16,640 --> 00:52:18,760 into Bitcoin through mining. But I would say if you're 977 00:52:18,760 --> 00:52:21,000 looking at that, if you're an observer, you you don't know, 978 00:52:21,080 --> 00:52:21,800 right? You're looking at that. 979 00:52:21,800 --> 00:52:24,240 You're like, Oh my God, like is this, is this a switch? 980 00:52:24,480 --> 00:52:27,960 So what I'm trying to say is you got in way earlier, right? 981 00:52:28,880 --> 00:52:31,080 Things were a lot more uncertain back then. 982 00:52:31,240 --> 00:52:33,760 Did you always know? What advice would you give to 983 00:52:33,760 --> 00:52:36,320 your younger self? Is it just going to be like, I 984 00:52:36,320 --> 00:52:37,680 wish I bought more? Yeah. 985 00:52:37,840 --> 00:52:39,840 Of course, that's the that's the wish everyone had. 986 00:52:39,840 --> 00:52:41,280 OK, let's. Scratch that one out. 987 00:52:41,440 --> 00:52:44,160 What other advice would you give your younger self for Bitcoin? 988 00:52:44,160 --> 00:52:47,120 Specifically, Bitcoin, entrepreneurship, Whatever. 989 00:52:47,320 --> 00:52:50,480 I think just focus and and think about things. 990 00:52:50,920 --> 00:52:53,720 That's the advice I would give. And could you elaborate a little 991 00:52:53,720 --> 00:52:56,480 bit about what why you would give yourself that advice? 992 00:52:56,920 --> 00:53:00,440 Because I, I think most people don't think deeply about topics 993 00:53:00,480 --> 00:53:04,320 and if you really analyse a lot of things, I think you can 994 00:53:04,320 --> 00:53:07,120 reason out through first principles thinking what is the 995 00:53:07,120 --> 00:53:09,120 right answer? Like who's right in the block 996 00:53:09,120 --> 00:53:12,400 size for you have to really step back and objectively look at the 997 00:53:12,400 --> 00:53:14,400 motivations and incentives of everyone. 998 00:53:14,840 --> 00:53:18,440 So I think that's the biggest thing to think, like if I was 999 00:53:19,080 --> 00:53:21,120 really young and I had to tell myself something, just think 1000 00:53:21,120 --> 00:53:23,040 more about everything, analyse everything. 1001 00:53:23,800 --> 00:53:26,080 What motivated you to start Gen. 3? 1002 00:53:27,040 --> 00:53:29,080 I want to accelerate Bitcoin adoption. 1003 00:53:29,080 --> 00:53:34,240 So if Bitcoin adoption, if hyper bitcoinization is this 1004 00:53:34,520 --> 00:53:38,880 demonetization event, there's a lot of preparation that has to 1005 00:53:38,880 --> 00:53:41,840 go into onboarding humanity to Bitcoin. 1006 00:53:42,280 --> 00:53:45,200 And the wallet obviously is a major touch point, right? 1007 00:53:45,200 --> 00:53:47,400 The most people are going to, they're not going to get a node, 1008 00:53:47,400 --> 00:53:50,160 they're just going to download a wallet and in an App Store. 1009 00:53:50,480 --> 00:53:54,520 So you need to have that solid and ready to onboard people, but 1010 00:53:54,760 --> 00:53:57,560 engaging with governments, getting them ready so that they 1011 00:53:57,560 --> 00:54:01,480 don't in, in, in the time of failing currencies, they don't 1012 00:54:01,480 --> 00:54:04,520 accidentally adopt Ethereum or something as a sound money. 1013 00:54:05,080 --> 00:54:10,160 So it's preparation work so that people understand Bitcoin, know 1014 00:54:10,160 --> 00:54:14,840 how to handle Bitcoin and are ready because the it's going to 1015 00:54:14,840 --> 00:54:17,240 be messy. And we've seen this in recent 1016 00:54:17,240 --> 00:54:19,560 history. India had a demonetization event 1017 00:54:19,560 --> 00:54:23,080 in 2016 where they just pulled some notes out of circulation 1018 00:54:23,200 --> 00:54:28,840 and that was a big mess and people died because hospitals 1019 00:54:28,840 --> 00:54:30,840 would not accept the bills. That's. 1020 00:54:30,840 --> 00:54:32,480 Crazy. People were lining up at the 1021 00:54:32,480 --> 00:54:34,840 banks and dying of exposure to heat. 1022 00:54:35,320 --> 00:54:37,880 You know, these things are not orderly. 1023 00:54:38,280 --> 00:54:41,480 So I think given that I'm so bullish that I think it's going 1024 00:54:41,480 --> 00:54:44,480 to go very rapidly. We should be out there engaging 1025 00:54:44,480 --> 00:54:47,720 and educating and trying to onboard people ahead of time, 1026 00:54:48,160 --> 00:54:51,520 getting parallel systems in place where you have your Fiat 1027 00:54:51,520 --> 00:54:55,240 currency and you have Bitcoin, because that's the softest way 1028 00:54:55,240 --> 00:54:58,360 being able to move in. And back to your other question, 1029 00:54:58,600 --> 00:55:00,760 why at which point are we not early? 1030 00:55:01,240 --> 00:55:04,680 When you cannot buy Bitcoin with Fiat, that means late. 1031 00:55:05,000 --> 00:55:07,840 Interesting Are central bank digital currency still threat? 1032 00:55:08,160 --> 00:55:11,480 I don't think they were ever really a threat because people 1033 00:55:11,480 --> 00:55:14,200 don't want to use them. Every country that's rolled out 1034 00:55:14,200 --> 00:55:18,880 a CBDC has sort of failed even in China, which you would they 1035 00:55:18,880 --> 00:55:21,760 could pull it off because you can't use VPN, this great 1036 00:55:21,760 --> 00:55:25,280 firewall and whatnot. But no ones using barely anyone 1037 00:55:25,280 --> 00:55:28,720 is using the CBDC. And then Nigeria had the E 1038 00:55:28,720 --> 00:55:30,280 naira. There was a total failure. 1039 00:55:30,280 --> 00:55:31,920 Total failure. Yeah. 1040 00:55:32,040 --> 00:55:35,680 And they had to actually clamp down and limit ATM withdrawals 1041 00:55:35,680 --> 00:55:40,160 to force people to use what they initially marketed as a 1042 00:55:40,160 --> 00:55:43,600 convenience tool and milk to help you, to keep you safe. 1043 00:55:43,680 --> 00:55:46,600 But if it's so good and so safe, why do you need to beat people 1044 00:55:46,600 --> 00:55:49,200 over the head to use it? Yeah, there should be no need 1045 00:55:49,200 --> 00:55:51,200 for coercion. But you do. 1046 00:55:51,200 --> 00:55:53,280 Because people may not understand Bitcoin, but they're 1047 00:55:53,280 --> 00:55:54,600 not stupid. They're not going to use 1048 00:55:54,600 --> 00:55:56,320 something where they can't get out. 1049 00:55:56,320 --> 00:55:58,800 They're not going to check into the Roche Motel, right? 1050 00:55:59,160 --> 00:56:02,720 Well, some do, but those are. We call them shit corners, but 1051 00:56:03,160 --> 00:56:06,720 generally people know this is inferior monetary technology. 1052 00:56:06,720 --> 00:56:12,440 They may not be able to quantify it and describe it, but they 1053 00:56:12,440 --> 00:56:14,160 know inside. Yeah. 1054 00:56:14,200 --> 00:56:17,760 And what's really interesting, what you said about the coercive 1055 00:56:17,760 --> 00:56:22,840 aspect, right, Like CBDC's Fiat, they do require a form of 1056 00:56:22,840 --> 00:56:26,200 coercion for people to use. I think the reason Bitcoin's 1057 00:56:26,200 --> 00:56:29,240 going to win ultimately is it's, it's incentives. 1058 00:56:29,240 --> 00:56:30,800 It's just comes down to incentives. 1059 00:56:30,800 --> 00:56:34,000 Bitcoin incentivizes people for for them to use it. 1060 00:56:34,000 --> 00:56:38,680 There is no coercion in in the equation. 1061 00:56:38,680 --> 00:56:42,640 And to me, when I really learned that lesson, Samson, was when 1062 00:56:42,640 --> 00:56:46,400 the China mining ban happened and the hash rate dropped 50%. 1063 00:56:46,560 --> 00:56:50,040 Within nine months, the hash rate recovered, decentralizing 1064 00:56:50,040 --> 00:56:54,080 the process went all over the world, Texas, Kazakhstan. 1065 00:56:54,360 --> 00:56:57,960 And there was no Bitcoin CEO essentially whipping people to 1066 00:56:58,120 --> 00:57:00,640 plug in those miners. It was just the Bitcoin network 1067 00:57:00,640 --> 00:57:05,080 incentivizing people, entrepreneurs, miners to plug 1068 00:57:05,080 --> 00:57:06,600 those machines back in. Yeah. 1069 00:57:06,960 --> 00:57:09,560 So it was pretty crazy. It was pretty crazy. 1070 00:57:09,760 --> 00:57:13,120 It's always fun times. Yeah, I mean, it, it kind of, it 1071 00:57:13,120 --> 00:57:15,720 was kind of a bummer because it cut 2021 short. 1072 00:57:15,720 --> 00:57:17,920 Like I, I really believe that. I know there's all these other 1073 00:57:17,920 --> 00:57:20,440 theories, but you look at the hash rate and you look at the 1074 00:57:20,440 --> 00:57:23,640 price drop, it's like it's obvious that that's what it was. 1075 00:57:23,640 --> 00:57:25,560 Well. FTX cut the last one short, too. 1076 00:57:25,560 --> 00:57:28,560 Yeah, that's why I think we should be at 200 right now. 1077 00:57:28,760 --> 00:57:30,800 Yeah. Everything under 200 is, you 1078 00:57:30,800 --> 00:57:32,600 know, cherish. It's a joke. 1079 00:57:33,160 --> 00:57:37,600 So what are the things that worry about worry you about 1080 00:57:37,600 --> 00:57:41,880 Bitcoin the most? I think Bitcoin is pretty solid 1081 00:57:41,880 --> 00:57:44,400 right now. I don't really have too many 1082 00:57:44,400 --> 00:57:46,640 worries. If I had to pick one, it would 1083 00:57:46,640 --> 00:57:50,520 be sometime in the future. We might have something like a 1084 00:57:50,560 --> 00:57:55,000 block size war or a civil war. And it might be from the 1085 00:57:55,240 --> 00:57:58,520 traditional finance system like the legacy finance system. 1086 00:57:59,080 --> 00:58:02,000 Because if you look at the BlackRock ETF filing, they 1087 00:58:02,000 --> 00:58:05,280 actually say in there we get to choose which chain is Bitcoin, 1088 00:58:05,280 --> 00:58:08,200 if there is a split, which is incorrect. 1089 00:58:08,360 --> 00:58:11,720 And if they amend that, I'll feel better. 1090 00:58:11,720 --> 00:58:14,920 But until they do, I think that's a risk hanging over our 1091 00:58:14,920 --> 00:58:17,720 heads. There's a chance that even if 1092 00:58:17,720 --> 00:58:20,200 that doesn't happen, that Bitcoin can split into two. 1093 00:58:20,520 --> 00:58:23,240 You have institutional Bitcoin and free Bitcoin. 1094 00:58:23,680 --> 00:58:26,920 Institutional Bitcoin is just locked up in ETFs, in 1095 00:58:27,280 --> 00:58:29,760 custodians, and it's not allowed to leave. 1096 00:58:29,840 --> 00:58:33,560 And we see little snips and glimpses in the future of that, 1097 00:58:33,560 --> 00:58:35,280 right? In the UK you can only transfer 1098 00:58:35,280 --> 00:58:37,680 from one exchange to another exchange, right? 1099 00:58:37,720 --> 00:58:42,040 Little bits of, you know, Orwellian garbage here and 1100 00:58:42,040 --> 00:58:44,160 there, but that could really happen. 1101 00:58:44,160 --> 00:58:47,160 You just have free Bitcoin, which is transacted in in 1102 00:58:47,160 --> 00:58:48,880 Argentina, El Salvador and everywhere else. 1103 00:58:48,880 --> 00:58:51,880 And then everything else is locked up in a system and it 1104 00:58:52,000 --> 00:58:54,520 can't escape. What can we do as a community to 1105 00:58:54,840 --> 00:58:58,080 avoid that scenario? There may be no way to avoid it, 1106 00:58:58,160 --> 00:59:01,800 but you can protect yourself by keeping your Bitcoin yourself. 1107 00:59:02,360 --> 00:59:06,680 Anything that's in the system or connected to the system, you 1108 00:59:06,760 --> 00:59:10,040 have to understand there is some risk to it there and you may not 1109 00:59:10,040 --> 00:59:11,440 be able to take it out of that system. 1110 00:59:11,720 --> 00:59:14,320 That leads me to my next question, which is the idea of 1111 00:59:14,320 --> 00:59:16,400 self custody. I think I've been doing this in 1112 00:59:16,400 --> 00:59:22,040 nine years and I have this very, you know, ideological view on 1113 00:59:22,040 --> 00:59:23,680 self custody. It's like not your keys, not 1114 00:59:23,680 --> 00:59:26,480 your cheese. But in actuality, I'm, I'm the 1115 00:59:26,520 --> 00:59:29,360 Uncle Jim of my family and my extended family. 1116 00:59:30,520 --> 00:59:35,400 And even though I've showed them 1000 times how to do it, for 1117 00:59:35,400 --> 00:59:40,640 whatever reason, writing down 12 to 24 words is like rocket 1118 00:59:40,640 --> 00:59:44,440 science. So, and then in my experience, 1119 00:59:44,440 --> 00:59:47,520 to use your analogy of earlier on regards to people walking 1120 00:59:47,520 --> 00:59:51,960 across the street, you know, the idea of not having a 1800 number 1121 00:59:51,960 --> 00:59:57,760 to call is radical. It's, it's, it's uncomfortable. 1122 00:59:58,440 --> 01:00:02,560 And now that leads me to like my conclusion that I've come to 1123 01:00:02,560 --> 01:00:06,000 with self custody is. Have we underestimated human 1124 01:00:06,000 --> 01:00:08,840 nature as Bitcoiners? I don't think so. 1125 01:00:09,080 --> 01:00:13,400 We're just going back to the way it was when everyone was using 1126 01:00:13,400 --> 01:00:15,440 gold. Who's the 1800 number? 1127 01:00:15,880 --> 01:00:20,280 There's no one 800 number. We've just been coddled and, you 1128 01:00:20,280 --> 01:00:24,880 know, domesticated into the Fiat system that we think it's normal 1129 01:00:24,880 --> 01:00:27,040 to be able to have someone help you. 1130 01:00:27,040 --> 01:00:31,680 You know, the reality is you have to take care of your money 1131 01:00:31,680 --> 01:00:33,680 yourself. Someone else can't take care of 1132 01:00:33,680 --> 01:00:36,880 it for you or you. You think they can, but they're 1133 01:00:36,880 --> 01:00:40,000 going to steal it slowly, if not immediately. 1134 01:00:40,680 --> 01:00:44,800 So you have to take your assets into your own hands. 1135 01:00:45,160 --> 01:00:48,040 Your destiny is your own. And I think we've done that in 1136 01:00:48,040 --> 01:00:50,720 the past with gold. We can do it again. 1137 01:00:51,840 --> 01:00:54,920 We can rediscover. Yeah, it's just going to take a 1138 01:00:54,920 --> 01:00:56,760 lot of work. I think it's going to be a 1139 01:00:56,760 --> 01:01:00,440 generational thing, a lot of education required. 1140 01:01:00,520 --> 01:01:03,400 I don't think so. I think you get very fast 1141 01:01:03,400 --> 01:01:06,080 education. Like everyone burned in Celsius 1142 01:01:06,080 --> 01:01:08,440 and FTX. Do you think those guys learned? 1143 01:01:08,760 --> 01:01:10,520 Oh, they, they learned very quickly. 1144 01:01:10,880 --> 01:01:15,240 I remember earlier on this year my sister lost her seed phrase 1145 01:01:15,760 --> 01:01:19,160 and I think she definitely learned how to take self custody 1146 01:01:19,160 --> 01:01:24,280 in that situation. So we were at a we were at your 1147 01:01:24,280 --> 01:01:29,320 red carpet event yesterday for the HBO documentary Money 1148 01:01:29,320 --> 01:01:32,040 Electric. How did that feel, man? 1149 01:01:32,680 --> 01:01:34,440 The red carpet event. The red. 1150 01:01:34,440 --> 01:01:37,120 Carpet event, You being in a feature film. 1151 01:01:37,440 --> 01:01:40,720 The documentary as a whole. It was fun I would say. 1152 01:01:41,600 --> 01:01:44,720 I think Peter had fun too. Is he Satoshi? 1153 01:01:44,840 --> 01:01:47,840 No, he's the red carpet event was fun. 1154 01:01:47,840 --> 01:01:50,800 We thought, you know, we knew we, we're close with the HBO 1155 01:01:50,800 --> 01:01:55,720 guys and we said, you know, you didn't have a, a live showing or 1156 01:01:55,720 --> 01:01:58,400 screening anywhere. Do you want us to help you do 1157 01:01:58,400 --> 01:02:02,160 one in El Salvador where a lot of the film was filmed actually 1158 01:02:02,160 --> 01:02:04,800 in El Salvador. So we thought it was very poetic 1159 01:02:04,800 --> 01:02:09,040 that we, we bring it here. We have a theater, we've got a 1160 01:02:09,040 --> 01:02:12,680 red carpet and we have, you know, Adam, Peter, myself and a 1161 01:02:12,680 --> 01:02:16,440 lot of other people, a lot of bitcoiners go and see the movie 1162 01:02:16,440 --> 01:02:18,240 together. It's like this thing. 1163 01:02:18,240 --> 01:02:20,960 You can't really do that often in your life, but go watch the 1164 01:02:20,960 --> 01:02:23,440 movie with your friends that are in the movie. 1165 01:02:23,520 --> 01:02:28,240 When you got into the industry and you know when you first 1166 01:02:28,240 --> 01:02:31,840 bought Bitcoin, could you ever have imagined what is happening 1167 01:02:31,840 --> 01:02:36,000 today? No, no, no. 1168 01:02:36,960 --> 01:02:42,520 I think it's everything's happened faster and in a much 1169 01:02:43,000 --> 01:02:45,280 more spectacular way than I imagined. 1170 01:02:45,960 --> 01:02:49,280 That's why I'm really bullish because I'm kind of bullish and 1171 01:02:49,280 --> 01:02:52,480 then my expectations are beat and I try to reset them and then 1172 01:02:52,480 --> 01:02:55,160 they are beat yet again. But everything is happening so 1173 01:02:55,160 --> 01:02:58,160 much faster. Like the China ban was a nation 1174 01:02:58,160 --> 01:03:00,640 state attack. Then you have a Salvador and 1175 01:03:00,640 --> 01:03:04,920 nation state adoption. The timeline is definitely way 1176 01:03:04,920 --> 01:03:07,200 faster, right? It's 16 years. 1177 01:03:07,480 --> 01:03:12,200 And being in it, you kind of you kind of lose your perspective. 1178 01:03:12,440 --> 01:03:15,600 But if you step back a bit and you try to look at it from afar, 1179 01:03:15,600 --> 01:03:17,920 it's like that's the blink of an eye. 1180 01:03:17,920 --> 01:03:24,160 Yeah, the the rapid pace at which we have grown as a 1181 01:03:24,160 --> 01:03:30,400 community, as an asset class and as a technology for money, it's 1182 01:03:30,400 --> 01:03:33,960 just unbelievable. Absolutely, It's it's been a 1183 01:03:33,960 --> 01:03:37,120 hell of a roller coaster ride. I don't think I'd want to work 1184 01:03:37,120 --> 01:03:38,920 anywhere else. I'm sure you feel exactly the 1185 01:03:38,920 --> 01:03:42,280 same way. Final question, what excites you 1186 01:03:42,280 --> 01:03:46,240 the most about Bitcoin for the next 5 to 10 years? 1187 01:03:46,520 --> 01:03:49,920 Watching hyper bitcoinization unfold, I think it's 5 to 10 1188 01:03:49,920 --> 01:03:51,400 years. Five to 10 years. 1189 01:03:51,400 --> 01:03:54,440 Five to 10 years, I don't think Fiat can hold out that long. 1190 01:03:54,680 --> 01:03:57,880 So I mentioned all the tailwinds that we have. 1191 01:03:59,040 --> 01:04:02,400 This is happening at the same time the Fiat system is facing 1192 01:04:02,400 --> 01:04:08,160 headwinds, right, $36 trillion in debt in the US Every other 1193 01:04:08,160 --> 01:04:12,800 country is massively in debt with a really crazy debt to GDP 1194 01:04:12,800 --> 01:04:15,720 ratio. The Fiat currencies are failing. 1195 01:04:16,360 --> 01:04:18,200 Canadian dollar. I don't know if you're watching 1196 01:04:18,200 --> 01:04:20,560 it, but it's going like it's trading like a shit coin. 1197 01:04:21,000 --> 01:04:24,880 As with a lot of other Fiat currencies, the yen is dying, 1198 01:04:25,360 --> 01:04:27,960 right? Last year there there were so 1199 01:04:27,960 --> 01:04:31,920 many Bank of Japan interventions to push it from 160 down to 1200 01:04:31,920 --> 01:04:37,000 1:50-ish and it's back now. How much more firepower do they 1201 01:04:37,000 --> 01:04:42,520 have and at what point does that stop working completely in the 1202 01:04:42,520 --> 01:04:46,200 UK? Last year, the pound almost 1203 01:04:46,200 --> 01:04:48,960 reached parity with a dollar, which is crazy. 1204 01:04:49,480 --> 01:04:51,640 The government bonds were in crisis. 1205 01:04:51,640 --> 01:04:53,520 The Bank of England had to intervene. 1206 01:04:54,080 --> 01:04:56,400 And maybe people are not paying attention now because there's so 1207 01:04:56,400 --> 01:04:59,400 much other stuff going on. But the government bonds in the 1208 01:04:59,440 --> 01:05:02,040 UK, the gilts there are again in crisis. 1209 01:05:02,480 --> 01:05:05,960 So if you look at everything, the entire macroeconomic 1210 01:05:05,960 --> 01:05:11,040 landscape, you can see that 1,000,000 is actually really 1211 01:05:11,040 --> 01:05:14,080 conservative for this year. Yeah, a 10X is. 1212 01:05:14,840 --> 01:05:18,720 Pretty conservative. That's a that's a perfect way to 1213 01:05:18,760 --> 01:05:20,760 end it, Samson. It's been an honor. 1214 01:05:20,760 --> 01:05:24,320 We're here at the Jan Three headquarters and El Salvador 1215 01:05:24,640 --> 01:05:26,360 filming in front of a real volcano. 1216 01:05:26,360 --> 01:05:28,600 That ain't a green screen. Samson, thank you so much. 1217 01:05:28,600 --> 01:05:29,640 Thank you. Appreciate that that. 1218 01:05:33,360 --> 01:05:38,320 Was dope volcano energy bro El Salvador freedom country it. 1219 01:05:38,400 --> 01:05:38,960 Was a lot of fun.