I won't be surprised if it goes anywhere between 200 and a
million. It could even pop over a million
for a little bit. But I, but I think 475 K for me
is kind of the most likely target.
I also have Q4 of 2025 as my target.
It could extend beyond that based on what I'm seeing, but
I'm kind of just sticking with, these are the predictions I've
made for the last two years and I'm, I'm sticking with that 475K
in Q4 of 2025. And then the other point, what I
wanted to say is these people that are calling for, we've
already hit our peak and that we're going to roll over.
There are a lot of people and for whatever reason, they're,
they're Gen. X economists and traders.
And I'm Gen. XI can say this, I'm right in
the middle of Gen. X.
They are freaking people out saying we are at this historical
peak like 1929 or 1999 and we are at the cusp of a massive,
massive recession and we're going to have a deflationary
bust and stocks and Bitcoin are going to absolutely crash and
get demolished. And so is oil like literally
worse than 1929. There are multiple people
talking about this. I think they're wrong.
I, I, I look at that, you know, I study macro.
I run a macro hedge fund. It's a multi strategy macro
fund. I couldn't disagree more.
We're all looking at the same data.
I think that we are just at the early stages of a new economic
cycle. Doctor Ross, hello.
How you been? I don't think, I don't think
you've been on the show for a couple of months now.
A couple of months in Bitcoin terms is like years.
So welcome back, you know, and and and that we were talking
about this before we went on air.
I do miss you on I do miss you on Twitter.
You know, I I do, I do you. You had some amazing takes and
you've gone Noster only these days.
You're kind, Nico. Thanks for having me on your
show. I have missed you and your show
and I do miss you on Twitter. I, I, I'll just reiterate what
we're talking about earlier is I knew my Twitter account, I think
in September and it's been awesome in general.
My stress level immediately went way down.
But I do miss the interaction with my friends on Twitter.
So that's, that's been tough And I I was hoping there'd be more
of a wave of people coming over to nostril only, but it's been
fun. It's been fun to watch it grow.
I will say that the experience now on Noster using different
clients, I, I use a primal now is way better than it was a year
ago and even way better than it was six months ago.
So, so it's been great. But yes, I do Missy, thanks for
having me back on your show. I've been pretty reclusive and
that's been on purpose for the last probably 6 to 12 months or
so. I don't get out much and but but
I said if I'm if I come out of hiding, I'm gonna come on your
show because I really appreciate you and all the work you do for
Bitcoin. I appreciate it, Doctor Ross,
and again, it's it's an honor to have you back.
Now, one of the things that I did 'cause I, I do hang out on,
I do hang out on nosters, especially since we went through
kind of like a deplatforming scare.
And that's really when it all snapped in my mind.
I was like, OK, you know, it's probably a good idea to even if
the volume isn't there, like, you know, really help support
this, this protocol. And, and I, and I'm a huge fan
of Primal. We actually had the CEO on
today's show earlier on today and we were talking about the
two point O update, which I think is really, really cool.
So anyways, I, I did see one of the posts that you posted and I
do want to talk about that because I think in Bitcoin
terms, we, we all experienced, you know, and you were around
during this time, Doctor Ross, like the 2021 bull market.
And I think a lot of people had their, they didn't meet the bull
market, didn't meet expectations.
And I, when I'm seeing this bull market is people still have a
lot of PTSD from that time, but I'm seeing the price at 106,000.
And historically the year after the halving is the year of the
parabola, less than 100%. We're at 200 K.
And it seems like you're one of the only people that is feeling
as bullish as I am because recently, I don't know where you
said this, but I saw that you were talking about a $475,000
Bitcoin in 2025. So could you walk us through a
little bit of your thought process on this?
Sure. So let let me back up.
I'll, I'll try to hit on the points you're talking about.
So 2021, I still maintain was a fluke.
I think it was an anomaly. I think that we were going to
have a major exponential move higher like like it does, like
Bitcoin traditionally has done. And then out of left field, a
Black Swan event. China banned Bitcoin mining and
said you have leave our country and it and it was like legit.
It wasn't like, oh, we're thinking about, you know,
banning it like we have in the past.
And it was legit. And so 50% of the hash rate
disappeared in about a month. And I know you were there and I
was there and it was crazy. And it literally just took all
the air out of the room. I wiped it out.
It was rough. On top of that liquidity, which
is another thing I follow, the liquidity cycle was already
starting to peak at that time. So, OK, so those two things
happened. As we remember, Bitcoin went way
down in the summer of 2021. And then it tried to make this,
you know, really, you know, admirable comeback again.
And it did get back up to new highs, whatever, 69 K somewhere
around there. But I maintain that that was an
anomaly. I maintain that if that wouldn't
have happened, if China wouldn't have done what it did, probably
also if SPF and all those frauds wouldn't have happened as well
that were fooling people into thinking they were actually
buying Bitcoin. But they got, they got smoked
and they were not. If that hadn't happened, I think
the price of Bitcoin would have been about 125 K back in 2021.
So then we went through that bear market.
The bear market was exceedingly painful and it got, and it was
just horrible at the end, right when all those centralized
exchanges went bust and and all the Bitcoin just went on to the
market, smashed the prices, everything went down.
So that was tough. That was all, I think a very
unusual a couple of years for Bitcoin.
I think now we're back on a more normal schedule.
I think that Bitcoin is going to surprise many people this time
around. I hear, you know, first of all,
there's this, you know, the power laws floating around
there. I'm actually a fan in general of
the power law, but the dude who prescribes it and talks about it
all the time, Giovanni, who I I think is great.
You know, we, we have personality differences, but I
think he's a nice guy and it's fine.
He really is pushing the theory that we have diminishing peaks
going forward. And there are other people that
talk about that as well. And I think a lot of people are
getting fooled by that. I, I see people on Twitter at,
you know, even over on Oster, we get little Twitter screenshots
of people talking about how the peak is already in don't buy it
at 100K. That's it.
We're done with this cycle. I could not disagree more.
I think those people are crazy. I think they don't know what
they're talking about. Not by the way, not Giovanni.
I'm saying the people who are calling for this 100K peak right
about now and that we're heading into a recession.
So there's a couple different schools of thoughts.
We'll talk about both of them. I'll talk about the recession
second. So first, do we have diminishing
peaks? It was a diminishing peak in
2021, but I maintain that that was a fluke.
So I'm so I think that people who think that we're going to
have this lower peak of, I think they're saying kind of 200 K,
maybe 150 to 250 K somewhere in there.
My guess is they're going to sell at 200 to 250 K and they're
going to think they're right for maybe a month and then it's
going to just take off again and go higher.
So my, my, I'm saying it could be 475.
Look, I don't know, right? I have no insight into what it's
going to be. I just think that that's kind of
about where it would be if 20/21 had been in a kind of a straight
line for its peak compared to 2017 and compared to 2013.
My range is actually very similar to Jack Mahler's.
I heard him talking the other day.
He has exactly the same range as I do, which is 200,000 to
1,000,000. People think you can't have
these kind of ranges, but I'm like, this is Bitcoin, right?
Bitcoin is crazy. It's super volatile.
I could, I won't be surprised if it goes anywhere between 200 and
a million. It could even pop over a million
for a little bit, but I, but I think 475 K for me is kind of
the most likely target. I also have Q4 of 2025 as my
target. It could extend beyond that
based on what I'm saying, but I'm kind of just sticking with,
these are the predictions I've made for the last two years and
I'm, I'm sticking with that 475 K in Q4 of 2025.
And then the other point, what I want to say is these people that
are calling for, we've already hit our peak and that we're
going to roll over. There are a lot of people and
for whatever reason, they're usually they're Gen.
X economists and traders and I'm Gen.
X. So I can say this, I'm right in
the middle of Gen. X.
They are freaking people out saying we are at this historical
peak like 1929 or 1999 and we are at the cusp of a massive,
massive recession and we're going to have a deflationary
bust and stocks and Bitcoin are going to absolutely crash and
get demolished. And so is oil like literally
worse than 1929. There are multiple people
talking about this. I think they're wrong.
I, I, I look at that, you know, I study macro.
I run a macro hedge fund. It's a multi strategy macro
fund. I couldn't disagree more.
We're all looking at the same data.
I think that we are just at the early stages of a new economic
cycle. It's actually grinding and we
can get into all this if we want to or we don't have to talk
about any of this. But I think we're early stages
and that the economy is going to be actually quite good
throughout 2025. It's leaving me very optimistic.
So come in full circle to what you're talking about.
I am optimistic like you are. I think that 2025 is going to be
a good year for the, as far as the price is concerned.
I just like to remind people even when we're in a bull market
and I officially declared that I switched from bull crab to to to
full bull. I said around Michael Jackson's
birthday. So the end of August of 2024,
that's when I switched over and, and I, and I haven't looked back
since then. I think the price was like
53,000 or something back at the time.
During bull markets, it's super normal to have 20 to 30% pull
backs. That's just part of the game.
So if we do have these big run run up run UPS, what I like to
tell people is just imagine if the price was 30% lower a week
from today, how would you feel? You know, so, so keep those kind
of things in mind. If we go up to say whatever
120,000 here in the next couple of weeks, which is kind of my
short term target for the end of December, I wouldn't be
surprised if we dropped down to like maybe 85 or 80,000 or even
75,000 or so and then we kind of start taking off again.
So just kind of prepare yourself mentally for those pull backs.
It doesn't mean it's over. It doesn't mean the naysayers
are right. The recession uses weren't
correct. It's just a normal, typical bull
market pull back. Absolutely.
And and you know, as long as you've, you've been in Bitcoin,
it's, there's something about the human brain and human nature
that's like, you know, it's very difficult.
It's like when number goes up, you want a FOMO.
When number goes down, you know, you're like, Oh my God, you
know, and then eventually kind of reaches that capitulation
phase. Now, what's really interesting
to me, Doctor Ross, is what you were just talking about.
You're the only person that agrees with the China mining ban
because I've been saying that for like a couple of years and
I've been getting so, but like you see the hash rate and the
price and it's a direct correlation.
Like you see the hash rate dropping, the price follows 50%.
Those miners had to sell. Then the miners have a lot of
the Bitcoin they had to sell to relocate to a more favorable
jurisdiction. You see the hash rate recover,
price recovers with it, right? And then they had that like the
glorious, you know, like trying to make it up, but it, it, it
seems like it was almost on purpose to take the steam out of
it. And in regard to the the next
cycle, what why I believe you're right and I agree with you is
that Bitcoin tends to do the exact opposite of what everyone
expects. And the general consensus this
cycle is 150K200K. That is what I'm seeing
everywhere. The power line again, Giovanni's
a great guy, you know, Fred Krueger, great.
I love their work, right. But that is the general
consensus on Bitcoin Twitter right now.
And as you said, Bitcoin does the exact opposite of what
everyone expects, right? So yes, I, I, I'm, I would be
extremely surprised if we only did 100% because 100% takes us
at 200 to 200 K next year. So I'd be extremely surprised.
And then, and if you're right about the 120 by the end of the
year, and I'm, I'm feeling that way as well, you know, it's less
than 100% just to get to 200 K. So and, and that's, and if you
look at Bitcoin's historical patterns, it, it, there's, it's
never broken this, but for some reason people always think it's
sometime is different, which is the year after the halving year
is the parabola year. And at this time, it's like, no,
that can't happen. And the reason that I think that
is, is because of everyone has PTSD from 2021.
And if people forgot what a, what a real party was in 2017,
it's been 7 years, almost eight years since we've had that level
of excitement, that level of euphoria.
So yeah, I, I completely agree with you.
And it's interesting because that's not the general
consensus. A lot of people are are saying
that's the opposite. Now you said something there was
really interesting and I and I want to dive deep into that,
which is the general kind of macro trends that you're seeing
and you're seeing that they're very favorable heading into
2025. That's something else.
This is the first time I'm hearing that type of stuff.
So what are you seeing that everyone else isn't seeing?
What? What or what are you seeing that
interests you? Man, I just look at so much data
and all of the data I look at is great.
So that. So first of all, one thing is
not good. US manufacturing has been in the
dumps. It's been in contraction or
recession mode, meaning a level below 50 on the ISM, it's these
scales that we use. If it's above 50, it's
considered it. It, it's increasing, it's
advancing. If it's below 50, it's in a
contraction or it's in a recession.
So US manufacturing has been stuck in this weak sauce zone
for about two to 2 1/2 years, and it's rough.
So if you're, you're in the, you know, manufacturing industry in
America, things have been tough. I, I grant that to everybody.
So, but why does it not matter that much?
Because the services sector is such a huge part of the American
GDP. So the economy in America is run
on the services sector, not manufacturing.
It's like a 2 to one ratio, even a little bit more than a 2 to
one ratio. So, you know, not that I, I, I
feel bad for people who are in these sectors, but it doesn't
drive the economy. What drives the economy is
services. Services is killing it with the
numbers just came out again this morning and I don't have them on
me, but I think it was 58 or 59 or so.
So expansion, they're just expanding like crazy, doing very
well. And overall the Composite Index
is getting pulled up very solidly because of services.
So manufacturing is weak, but it's only manufacturing housing,
which everybody talks about that, you know, and I was one of
them in 2022. I thought the housing market was
going to collapse because of what was happening with rates
and all and the economy slowing down and all this kind of stuff.
I thought in 2022 that we were headed into a recession.
And I do believe that it's fiscal spending that that saved
us from going into a major recession at the time.
Housing people continue to say looks like looks ugly, it is
weak, but it's starting to improve.
OK. So that's one that's a major
driver of the of the economy. You can look at new orders which
are forward-looking indicators. So if you talk to people who own
businesses are orders in the future for the coming three to
six months, are they looking up or are they down or are they
about flat? Almost all of those indices are
kind of off the charts going up. So that what does that mean?
That means that looking into the future forward leading forward
indicators, businesses should start to improve.
I think we'll see manufacturing, especially with the new Trump
administration coming in who's very pro manufacturing, very pro
bring it back to the United States where that which I think
is awesome. I think three to six months from
now, US manufacturing will be doing extremely well.
And we'll we'll be, you know, looking back and like, oh, what
a relief. Can you believe we thought we
were going into recession? Now look at how strong the
economy it looks today, profits people are talking about.
So, so I follow a lot of value investors.
I used to kind of live in the value investing community.
They're talking about these very stretched multiples.
So the price to earnings ratios, price to sales ratios are kind
of getting very high. And they'll show charts about
how it looks like 1929 looks like 1999, those kind of things.
They're right. But what they're missing once
again is that if you have a growing economy, what happens is
then those earnings start to increase, the denominator starts
to increase, and it shrinks those values.
So the companies grow into those expanded valuations.
So when I look at all of those things and then multiple other
factors, all I see is we have liquidity that's starting to
increase again. Global M2, which had been on the
decline throughout all of 2022, basically bottomed in Q4 of
2022. It's been going higher.
A lot of people come come back at me and say, but in the last
couple of months it it's been going down.
What what's happening? Is it over?
Have we peaked? It's only because the dollar has
been so strong. So we've had a huge burst higher
in the dollar basically since I think the end of October or or
so until now, maybe even the beginning of October.
Somewhere in that time frame. This exact same thing happened
the last time Trump was elected. It, it, it's creates this
strength and this optimism and, and the dollar ripped higher to
the end of December, early January, peaked and then rolled
over and basically fell all throughout 2017.
I expect pretty much the exact same thing to happen where the
dollar quits being the dollar Wrecking Ball, it rolls over, it
kind of decreases throughout the rest of 2017.
Why is that important? Because the dollar really
effects all other countries. So all other countries who have
priced their debt or their goods and services in dollar terms, it
hurts them when the dollar is strong, when the dollar weakens,
their own currency strengthens. It makes it easier for them to
pay back debt. It makes it easier on their
economy. They can sell more goods.
It's easier for for them to run their economies and and it's
basically just net good for the world when the dollar is
weakening, when banks, when economies are doing well, banks
start lending. When they lend, they're creating
new monetary supply that increases global M2.
And that as the global M2 starts to increase, it finds its way
into more further out on the risk curve into stocks and
especially into Bitcoin, which is the great absorber of
liquidity. So lots of reasons there.
But everything I look at, and I'm not even trying to be snarky
about this, I see people talking about, I like, I can't believe
we're looking at the same in data and you have a negative
picture with what's going on. Most of them are valuations
based or technicals based, or they're more focused on what's
happening outside of the US because they're true.
It's true that the EU looks really rough right now.
It's very stagflationary and China looks very stagflationary
right now, meaning a stagnant economy but higher inflation.
the US, however, is not in that picture.
And as the global growth engine, which the United States is, and
I expect it to be even more powerfully with this in next
administration, we are going to lead the world out of this
stagflationary condition and into growth again.
And that's very bullish for risk assets and especially for
Bitcoin. And that, that, that is
extremely exciting, Doctor Ross. And you know what I'll say about
that? Is it it, you know, I might not
be able to, to describe it the way that, that you're seeing it
because you, you, you have this experience with your background
and you're, you're seeing all, you know, all this data points.
But I see the vibes, I feel the vibes.
I see the hope in people. Yo, I want to tell you about the
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And it's extremely exciting. And, and especially because of
this, this change in, in tuning and Doctor Ross, I don't think
we've spoken since this has happened, but you know, the
tremendous amount of institutional, not only
institutional adoption, but institutional acceptance of
Bitcoin. And you're hearing left and
right of, of traditionally very conservative companies that
perhaps they don't have exposure to direct spot Bitcoin, but you
hear that they have exposure to Bitcoin via the ETFs or via
MicroStrategy, which is essentially like a Bitcoin fund
at this point, the way that the stock is behaving.
So, you know, it's a would it be safe to say that this is a new
chapter in Bitcoins history? And what's really exciting too
is all of this is happening and we're heading into 2025 where
you're making the case that the macro environment looks very
positive. The regulatory environment
specifically for Bitcoin looks very positive.
And then again, you know, the, this is a change, this is a,
this is a change, not only institutional option, but the
nation state adoption as well. And what I've noticed, you know,
the last three or four months, it's absolutely hilarious.
You have, you know, the president of Russia, Putin
basically saying we can't ban it.
Then a a day later news comes out that the, the Duma, which is
the equivalent of the House of Representatives here in the
United States, they're introducing a bill to make a
Bitcoin strategic reserve. Brazil, a politician is
introducing a bill to make Bitcoin strategic reserve.
There's this this video going viral about this French
politician making this speech at the European Parliament
basically saying like, look, we have to take a look at this
Bitcoin thing. We made fun of El Salvador, the
IMF made fun of El Salvador, but this guy's like showing off on
Twitter and he made hundreds of millions of dollars off this
trade Like what what's going on here?
So it's a vibe shift. The macro situation is, is is
amazing, but I want to get your take on the and and this is this
is, this is up your alley, Doctor Ross, right.
The Could you ever have imagined back in 2017 the change in tune
from the legacy financial institutions?
I hate to be this guy, but yes, we've been talking, well,
because we've been talking about this.
This is inevitable. Like, right, We knew this was
going to happen. What I will say is surprising is
how quickly it's happened and how quickly, to your point, all
of these things have suddenly shifted.
And it seems like suddenly like it went from super dark and
negative and like Elizabeth Warren is treating us all like
we're criminals and we're all getting shadow banked and shadow
banned, You know, Operation Choke, .2 Point, all that kind
of stuff. And then suddenly like it's just
gone. And like to your point, there's
all these favorable conditions now for the first time.
So it's always been inevitable, right?
I've I used to go on Cafe Bitcoin and all these things all
the time and talk about how Wall Street is coming like that's
just a natural progression of Bitcoin.
And what we need to do as Bitcoiners is protect the soul
of Bitcoin. We need to make sure it doesn't
get consumed by Wall Street and taken over by Wall Street and
Wall Street will try and people are fighting against it right.
And we got to make sure that we don't get so enamored with
number go up that we that we've lose what's important with
Bitcoin. We got to still keep this.
So we got to remember that this is actually an alternative to
the US dollar and the Fiat government Fiat currency system,
right? And so keep building out these
other things, keep building out layer 2 and layer 3 so we can
use it as a totally alternative financial system and actually
get away. I'm of the theory, and this is
another quote that people think I'm crazy when I say this
Bitcoin is too powerful for Wall Street and it, and I actually
believe that it will consume Wall Street from the inside out.
And people think that's crazy. I'm saying within 10 to 20
years, it's going to outgrow Wall Street and basically bust
out of, of, of Wall Street and Wall Street will eventually bend
the knee to Bitcoin. And it's almost hard to believe
right now. It's kind of like I said two or
three years ago that I think MicroStrategy is going to be the
largest company by market cap by the year 2033 or 2034.
I still think that's very possible.
And people just laughed at me and mocked.
I'm like, just wait, like you don't understand like how crazy
this is. And if you can do speculative
arbitrage by borrowing dollars and buying Bitcoin with that and
just growing and growing and growing and then plus have being
riding the tails of the exponential growth of the
Bitcoin monetary network, the the upside is almost limitless,
especially when you compare it to limit limitless Fiat currency
creation. So I think it's all inevitable.
I think it's coming. I think that every company that
doesn't have Bitcoin on its balance sheet or a Bitcoin
reserve strategy will go to zero over time relative to Bitcoin.
So it's like if you want to survive in the next 10 to 20
years, you have to switch over. To me, it's very basic and, and
again, nobody understands that so many people on on in old Wall
Street, they think of Bitcoin as a technology stock instead of
what it really is, which is just better money.
Excuse me? So why is that important?
It's because if you don't get onto this system, the rest of
your business trends to 0 over time against Bitcoin.
They businesses cannot keep up with the annualized rate of
return of Bitcoin. They, they can't exist on this
Fiat system that's collapsing all around us.
They have to get on board. And so the longer they delay
that situation and whether you're an individual or a family
or a pension or an endowment or a church or a small business or
a large business or a nation state, it's the same for
everyone. And the sooner, and I know you
talk about this all the time on your show, but it's the game
theory at play. The longer it takes you to get
on board, the further behind you're going to be in this new
world. And why is this like why is
that? It's because Bitcoin isn't just
this like cool little thing like this, this neat little tech
stock. It's literally a new monetary
technology that's a change the world technology on par with,
we've talked about this, the wheel, fire, electricity, indoor
plumbing, railroads, the automobile, airplanes, personal
computers, the Internet, right? This is the Internet of value.
And so it's not like it's this cool little side asset.
It's literally this new invention.
It's kind of like if it was the year 1950 and you were a
business and you're still trying to run your business without
electricity. Like you, you have to comply to
the way the world is shifting and changing or, or if you're in
the year 2024 and you don't have an Internet strategy for your
business, it's just ludicrous to think about.
But I'm old enough to remember there were businesses that were
actively fighting and mocking the Internet back in the 90s and
the early 2000s. I used to, again, as a value
investor, people used to just literally mock Netflix.
They would and talk about how awesome Blockbuster is.
They would literally mock Amazon and, and talk about how awesome
Walmart is and how Amazon will never even come close to being
the same size as as Walmart. And now look at, you know,
Amazon has multitudes, yeah, multiples larger than than
Walmart. So just like you had to get that
sort of Internet strategy, you now have to have a Bitcoin
strategy, a new monetary Technology Strategy or you will
become obsolete. It's just what it is.
And I think that's inevitable. And so even though people think
I'm crazy, 510 years from now, we'll be talking about that and
they'll ask me long, did you ever see it coming?
I'm like, yes, it's it's it's going to come.
It has to come because it's clearly better money.
It's a better monetary network for the world.
And if you're not on board with it, you're going to become
obsolete. 100% and I mean it, it, it's what's fascinating to
me about this year is how Sailor is proving that on Wall Street,
you know, best performing stock of the year up, I think almost
500 percent or a little bit shy of that.
And 9 Bukela is proving that on the nation state level.
Now, Doctor Ross, what I want to ask you about, which is the the
Sailor strategy is fascinating. Like how is he able to do this?
You know, like I have the conceptual understanding of like
the mechanisms behind it, But you know, it's almost as if he's
using the prior system, He's taking advantage of the prior
system, which I don't think was prepared for something like
Bitcoin to buy more Bitcoin. It's, you know, and people call
it a speculative attack on the dollar.
Could you like describe what the mechanisms is behind it?
And is is he putting MicroStrategy at risk by doing
this? So the only people who think
he's putting it at risk are people who I think don't
understand what Bitcoin is. They think that they think
there's a chance that Bitcoin could go to 0 or fail.
And I, I used to think that back in like 2016 and maybe 2017 and
18. And then after thinking about it
and studying it for years and years and years and years, I
realize like that's just silly. It's like saying electricity is
going to fail or indoor plumbing is going to fail.
Just because it's a monetary technology doesn't mean it's not
a technology that's improving humanity.
So, so that's premise #1 is Bitcoin going to fail?
Absolutely not. Like 0% chance unless, you know,
again. And, and he gets asked these
questions all the time and I think they're so funny, like
whoa. And, and he's like, well, I
suppose if like a meteor struck the earth and we exploded or
that we, you know, collided with the sun, yeah, then Bitcoin
would probably fail, you know, but we probably have bigger
problems on our plate if that happens.
So. So Bitcoins not going to fail.
So that's the one thing it was brilliant what he did.
And, and, and I, I avoid the term speculative attack, even
though that was popularized. I think it was Pierre Rashard
maybe that that's coined that term or, or, or Bitstein or
somebody, you know, way back in the day, way before my time.
Brilliant, brilliant thought process.
I call it a speculative arbitrage or just a carry trade.
So like a Bitcoin carry trade, what you do is you borrow a a
depreciating currency, which is any Fiat currency, but you can
use the dollar. That's great.
You could he could do this with anything.
He doesn't have to do it in dollars.
It wouldn't have to be the US stock system.
It could be like Metaplanet and they're using, you know, assets
in Japan to do the exact same thing.
Excuse me. What he's doing is he's filling
a need. So there was this huge need in
Wall Street for people who wanted access to Bitcoin but
couldn't have it. There's all these rules, right?
It's, it's so stupid. It's all these communities of
people who decided like, here's exactly what you can do and
here's what you can't do. And one of the things you can't
do is you can't buy Bitcoin. It's like, OK, well, people
don't want to miss out on this, on these games, obviously.
So one easy thing to do is you could, if you have a brokerage
account and if or if you're a business, you can just buy
MicroStrategy, the equity. OK, that's one, that's one thing
you can do. A second thing is that traders
love volatility, right? So people, so they love Bitcoin,
but maybe they don't have cryptocurrency exchanges and and
access to trading there. They want to trade in the in the
old system, the old Wall Street system.
So what it does is now you can create option strategies, you
can do trading and because of its massive volatility, you can
do all these kind of trading strategies.
So traders love that extreme volatility.
They've also created these double long and triple Long
Products, things like that, which I think are crazy by the
way, and don't don't recommend them at all.
Like never use leverage with Bitcoin, don't use leverage with
micro strategy. Those kind of people, the huger,
the more important product that they've created because they
have this Bitcoin core, this treasury of of Bitcoin assets.
They can spin off things like convertible debt and other forms
of debt. And so now the debt markets can
get into Bitcoin for the first time.
And I know you probably know this too, but the Bitcoin
convertible debt and these bonds, they've massively
outperformed regular bonds. So anybody who sorry.
I mean, I'm, I'm just getting excited so.
So, so, so imagine, right, you, you, you're some kid working for
some stodgy old bond company, then you can only invest in
bonds and you're like, awesome, we're going to make, you know,
4% this year, super low volatility because you got to
have low volatility. It's all people talk about like,
awesome, but they get Bitcoin, right?
And so they go talk to their 70 year old boss like, hey, I think
we should get Bitcoin because our results suck and we're
actually losing purchasing power to inflation every year.
And they're like, well, we can't do that.
And So what did Sailor do? He's like, hey, I got a deal for
you. I will give you access to
Bitcoin. I'll give you exposure to
Bitcoin, but with a much lower volatility.
So if Bitcoin has like a 60 ball, we're going to take the
ball down for you, you know, to say 10% or 15% or somewhere in
that range and we're going to limit all your downside.
So what Sailor is basically saying is I'll absorb all of the
volatility are almost all of the volatility on your behalf and
give you this much of the upside gain, even though that it the
stock is probably going to go up to here, you'll go here, but
with no downside risk. And to a bondholder, that's like
a miracle. That's like the greatest product
that you can imagine because you are you kidding me?
I could get like a 60% return over a year or two with no
downside risk. Yes, I'll take that all day.
And so that's why when Sailor he, he puts these products out,
they're not only subscribed instantly, they're
oversubscribed by multitudes and multitudes.
So, so he might put out like, I'm going to offer 800 million
and like literally like that he gets offers for like 1.2 billion
and they get oversubscribed. And I just literally think he's
going to be doing this over and over and over and over and over
again because the, the, the desire in the bond market and on
Wall Street to have these types of products where you can kind
of dial up or dial down your volatility on the back of
Bitcoin is insatiable. And I think that we're going to
that's that's what makes micro strategy such an amazing
product. And I get it, I get it right.
It's a centralized honeypot. There are downsides.
There are huge risks to it. I still tell everybody the best
thing to do is just own Bitcoin and cold storage, get it off
exchanges, get it out of the traditional financial system.
But people should be cheering him on at the same time.
I think every single CEO, founder, CFO of any public
company should be doing exactly what he's doing.
I truly do. And I think if you don't do
that, you're going to get left behind again, if you don't have
a Bitcoin strategy, even if it's just as simple as you put a
little, you buy a little bit, you DCA into Bitcoin with some
of your extra cash. If you're not doing that, you're
going to get left behind and you're going to be obsolete
within 10 to 20 years. Yeah, I completely agree.
And and you just blew my mind. I was, I was that was
fascinating. Just going down the the bonds of
now. Look, Doctor Ross, I have a
question for you, right? And this is something that, you
know, looking back because you know, I I I started my career,
my career has been Bitcoin, right?
And you know, I've been more media focused, but I understand
and I've explained this to you many times.
Or like I, I, I learned Bitcoin 1st and then I've had to
backtrad to like try to understand the traditional
financial system after. And you know, one of the things
that I noticed this year was for the first time, you know, and
I've held Bitcoin, it's eight years now.
Holy cow. But you know, for the first time
I was looking at it, I was like, should I have bought in
MicroStrategy instead of Bitcoin?
So that's my question to you is if you know, you get a a
question from a client or you get a question.
And again, this is not financial advice, just pref asterisk,
right? But if you get a question from a
a client or like a higher net worth individual and they say,
you know, Doctor Ross, like, what should I do?
Should I buy MicroStrategy? Should I buy spot Bitcoin?
And then also, you know, as a Bitcoiner kind of puts you in
this conundrum because you're just like, you know, I want to
take self custody of my Bitcoin. But at the same time you're
looking at MicroStrategy and you said, you know, theoretically I
could have multiplied the amount of Bitcoin I had like let's say
I would have put the equivalent of 1 Bitcoin into MicroStrategy
in the beginning of the year. Maybe I could have got in four
or five out of that, you know, so that's not something that's
very popular within the Bitcoin community.
But it is a very important question because, you know,
you're you're pitching spot Bitcoin to, you know,
traditional investors or whatever.
And they're looking at this like, why should I do that?
If I can just buy MicroStrategy, I'm comfortable within my
Charles Schwab account. I don't have to learn, you know,
all this technical stuff and all that stuff that we all advocate
for. What would be your advice
towards that person? Again, not finding this is
theoretical financial advice. So a couple of thoughts.
So let me say first that about two years ago, I really 2:00 to
3:00 somewhere really studied his his strategy, what he's
doing at MicroStrategy. And I thought this is the only
equity that I see that will outperform Bitcoin over the long
run. I don't think anything else
will. I don't think, I don't think
Bitcoin miners will. Everybody was all into Bitcoin
miners the last cycle. They're not so much this cycle,
but they're still doing pretty well all other businesses, even
if you, you know, whether you're a tech company, whatever kind of
company you are, you just can't outperform Bitcoin unless, how
could you do that through intelligent leverage?
So I, I actually think I'm the one who coined that term and I
think he's Michael Saylor took it from me because now he talks
about the intelligent leverage strategy of my, of my, and
that's great. It's an open source, you know,
community and maybe I didn't, maybe he came up with it, but
that I just looked ahead and thought this is the only thing
because of this leverage. And if you shrewdly apply
leverage, that's what a lot of hedge funds do too.
That's how they out they can outperform the market if you
shrewdly apply leverage and you have access to cheap leverage at
the right times. OK, so so that's that's number
one. Number two, everyone should own
Bitcoin and have it in cold storage.
Why? Because Bitcoin is an
alternative to the collapsing Fiat system.
So as much as I like micro strategy and I think it can
actually even outperform Bitcoin, you don't know what's
going to happen, right? And, and I, I hope he lives
forever, but sailor could die in a plane crash today.
He, he could, he could turn out he's doctor evil and he could be
like, ha, ha, ha, I'm stealing all of this and we and we've
duped you all right. He's he stores this at different
places. I think Coinbase custody is one
of them. There's other places.
These are honeypots. It's possible somebody could get
access to this. You could have a bad player who
could some he could have a dude on his C-Suite in AC suite who
who colludes with some other dudes in AC suite and be like,
we're going to get the keys and we're going to take all this
Bitcoin and move it to Tahiti. You know, and there's all of
these different risks that you take on when you own
MicroStrategy and other assets. So those things are real, right?
And nobody believes, I mean, especially in a bull market,
especially if you're outperforming, nobody cares.
They'll buy it at any price. They also don't care that you're
buying bit net. You know that it used to be on
par with to the NAV of the Bitcoin that it held on its
balance sheet and then it's it's gone up by multiples 3X4X5X.
To the to the amount of Bitcoin it owns it it it has owned and
that's kind of a market issue. And I and what happens is during
bull markets is the is the further the bull market goes on,
usually the greater that spread becomes at some point that
spread closes again, right. People who own GB, this is a
different technical issue, but people who own GBTC back in the
last cycle learned that the hard way.
I actually learned that the hard way because in our hedge fund
that was about the only Bitcoin proxy I could find for my
clients. 2021 was a really good year for Bitcoin even though it
was subdued like we talked about earlier.
But GBTC went from a premium to a discount to NAV to the net
asset value. So GBTC, if I remember it, I
think it returned 0 percent or right around it was flat in
2021. That was very painful.
So those kind of things can happen to micro strategy.
And that's another thing that I think about is when it's the
flavor of the cycle. So it when it's the darling of
the cycle, the last cycle, the darling started GBTC and then
that deflated and then it was the Bitcoin miners, they were
the darling of the 2021 cycle. Now it's MicroStrategy.
What usually happens is everybody wants the darling
right away. So that tends to peak earlier.
So what I think is going to happen, and we've already seen
that, right, that the MicroStrategy is crushed,
Bitcoin returns. I think it's up to your .4 to
500% so far this year. I think it, if I had to, if I
had to guess, it's going to peak early and then it's going to
kind of fizzle while Bitcoin still kind of finishes its cycle
a little bit later. So just a guess.
I have no insight to that other than that's usually what happens
for the darlings of the cycle because people, everybody wants
that and then there's no more buyers left out at some point.
So that's a really long winded answer to say if you have no
other alternative, yeah, go ahead and buy some micro
strategy. You go ahead and buy the ETF if
you want. But super critical that you
first need to establish real Bitcoin in cold storage outside
of the system. Because if things hit the fan or
if the government says, hey, we're going to seize this or
whatever, or something bad happens, if you have a Bitcoin
proxy, if you have a Bitcoin IOU, you don't have real
Bitcoin. I know you know that and I know
you tell your listeners that all the time, but you might be able
to outperform for a while. It's the same with nonsense
proof of proof of state crypto, right?
A lot of people get attracted by that kind of stuff.
You may outperform Bitcoin, but you're just playing with fire
when you do that kind of stuff. And and I think and you that's a
whole different subject, but you're just buying nonsense at
that point and you really run the risk of just losing it all
and getting rug pulled. And so just be smart.
Absolutely, and it it that was an incredible answer.
So it was like it's a leverage play, but it's not replacing
real Bitcoin. All right, So if if if you're
you know, because there's some regulations, I believe like if
you own it, if you have like an IRA or something like it, you
can't actually like you can't have self custody Bitcoin.
And it's what you said it it it MicroStrategy has fulfilled this
need, right? For they want people want
exposure to Bitcoin, but because of the regulations, because of
the laws, they can't do it just a.
Quick, can I give you a quick case in point?
I run a hedge fund right? So I I my platform is
Interactive Brokers. I can buy Bitcoin through
Interactive Brokers on my hedge fund, but I can only buy up to
$1,000,000 worth of Bitcoin on they have a relationship with
Paxos. This other exchange.
I can't put it in a cold storage.
I can only own it there and it's only up to 1,000,000, right.
And so that's fine if you're if you're a smaller investor, but
when I'm running a larger fund, that's just a small portion of
my fund. So I have to find proxies to
invest in Bitcoin. So I have to use MicroStrategy
and have to use ETFs if I want to have more Bitcoin exposure.
Very frustrating. Now what?
And one thing I wanted to say, there are places you can have
Bitcoin in self custody like multi sig solutions, Unchained
Capital has those. I think Swan offers those.
I think there are multiple institutions where you can hold
real Bitcoin in a multi sig solution in an IRA.
So I just wanted to say that sorry and I interrupted you.
I just wanted to give that example.
No, no, it's it's it's fascinating and one who sets
these laws. I'm so confused.
Like it's like up to 1,000,000 like why?
I don't understand. Is it like supposed to be met?
Is it meant to like, protect the investor?
Is that the psychology behind it?
Yeah, I mean, I, I mean, I believe I, I believe a, a
prominent female senator from Massachusetts is behind almost
all of this stuff and I'm very bitter about it.
And, and I, I've changed a lot of my own businesses practices
and what I do because of these sorts of regulations that I've
butted heads clashed with for a couple of years, very
frustrating. So I think things will change
with this next administration and and the the laws will become
much more amenable and much more easy to comply with.
Yeah, and, and not to get into any of the specifics or
whatever, but it, it, it's almost as if like, you know,
and, and I and I was talking about art, but my show
specifically Doctor Ross, like we tried so hard to stay
apolitical. And then it got to a point
where, you know, I, me and Opti, of course, you know, Opti and we
were just like, and I, and I told him I was like, dude, are
we going to have to move to El Salvador?
Like this isn't they forced our hand and they created like a
situation where the opposing political parties like, oh, this
is votes. You know, I don't think they
actually care. They're just like, this is a
great political opportunity for us.
You know, we'll say the things and it's like they, they forced
our industry to get active where I think bitcoiners inherently
just don't care about politics. But it's like they poked our
buttons to a point where we're just like, you know, like we
just wanted to do something. But anyways, I, I wanted to
pivot back to the, the micro, the, the, the micro strategy
conversations. That was so fascinating to me.
There is some recent news that was dropping in regards to the,
and I love the, and I'm sure you saw it, the Sailor poking the
buttons at the Microsoft CEO and then, you know, the shareholders
like essentially, you know, put enough pressure on the board.
And then my then Sailor was able to make a 3 minute video where
he just essentially condensed all this information into a
slideshow. But they had a vote and it was
like, by and large, they just shut it down.
So, you know, we know all this is inevitable as Bitcoiners, but
why can't any, why can't everybody like, why can't other
people see it? You know, I know that Tesla has
Bitcoin, but why can't, why can't a company like Microsoft
super successful, you know, makes a tremendous amount of
money every year. They're holding, I think the
last time I checked was $88 billion of cash or cash
equivalents. So they're literally sitting on
in a melting ice cube. Why can't they see what Sailor
sees? Because they don't care.
I mean, think about Sailor. He was desperate right?
In 2020. He even admits that.
And I've even said that publicly when when he's heard it is that
he had this a crappy software business that was dying and he
needed to do something. And he even says, I was thinking
about just shutting it all down. And then I discovered Bitcoin.
I was looking at like, I have these cash flows, which are
great, but we haven't been able to grow or figure a solution out
for years and years and years and years.
And he has very frustrated shareholders.
He's obviously a polymath, super intelligent guy.
And I'm sure he was just just kicking himself like day after
day after day. Like, what do I got to do to,
you know, make this company grow again?
And then you just. And that led him to Bitcoin.
When you, when you look at the Mag 7, the Microsofts, the
Amazon is going to be voting on this pretty soon as well.
These other, these other companies, they're so wildly
successful in the Fiat world that they don't need Bitcoin.
They don't care. They're like, why would we
disrupt the status quo? Why would we rock the boat?
Because we're doing so great. And, and also you got to
understand all of these businesses are run by
committees. They have everything is done by
the board, right? And so even if you have one or
two people who get Bitcoin, you have 8 to 20 people who don't
get Bitcoin and think it's a hoax still and they think it's a
scam. It just takes time, right?
So you got to get these younger people in who get it or the few
older people who get it to, to effect change.
Michael Saylor could do it because he was the founder and
CEO. He's like, hey, I'm going to do
this. I've decided and here we go.
And I have, you know, a majority voting rights.
So nobody can stop me. If you don't like it, you can
leave. He gave that offer to people way
back in the day and some people did take him up on that.
So I just think that's what's going to happen.
And it's again, it's sort of what we talked about earlier.
It's not until these businesses get desperate that they realize
they need Bitcoin and they need that annualized rate of return
on their balance sheet till they till they realize like, Hey, you
know, we're, we're trying to do, you know, build this product
line, but it's, it only has an IRR of like 20% or 15% or 10% in
like, should we really be doing this?
What if we just put some Bitcoin on our balance sheet instead?
Or at least, you know, maybe split it up half and half?
So one of the things that I'm sort of proud of are well, two
things related to what you said before I left Twitter, I made a
plea to to my followers and said, if you own shares of these
traditional stock market companies, these public
companies put shareholder proposals in there to get
Bitcoin on the balance sheet. We got to start, we, we have all
of this and we know the truth, right?
So start spreading that and start forcing the issue because
as a shareholder you still have that power to bring up these
issues. So that made a lot of news with
Microsoft and ended up, you know, so Sailor got to give his
little 3 minute pitch. I'm proud to say I was one of
the votes or I, my fund actually owns Microsoft.
We voted in favor of it. It lost.
It only got .55% of the vote. So, so you know, 99.45% said no.
I was part of the .55% that said yes.
And people are like, how can you own Microsoft?
It's a Fiat company. And I'm like, I know, but I
started my fund. It was a total Fiat fund from
the beginning. It was a value fund that
invested in tech, technology and healthcare stocks.
And we, we, we have come into Bitcoin and now we're like a
massively Bitcoin centric fund, but we still have a lot of these
older tech companies and things. And I still want to affect
change from within, right? So I, I also own Amazon and our
fund. I'm going to be voting in favor
of that too. We're going to lose by a massive
margin, but I guarantee, guarantee that over the years
we'll start to win. And one by one these companies,
somebody is going to figure it out, right?
Maybe it's Tim Cook at Apple, who knows.
It's somebody somewhere who will have a lot of power who will
say, you know what, we need to get on a Bitcoin standard or at
least put a little bit of Bitcoin on our on our balance
sheet or we're going to fall too far behind.
So I'm I know it's going to happen.
I think by the end of the decade, a lot more companies are
going to do it. We're all excited about the fact
that it's not just sailor anymore, right?
It's the now it's similar scientific marathon Riot are
doing it to Bitcoin miners. Dylan Leclair over at Metaplan
is doing that over in Japan. I love it.
I love it all. It's just the beginning though,
right? I mean, it's literally going
from like 0 to one. That's what's going to drive
this next cycle though. So that's why I think that's how
we get to say 475,000 or somewhere between 200,000 and a
million. And then we fizzle again when
the liquidity drains out of the system.
But the next cycle we're going to go from, we went from zero to
one this cycle. We're going to go from 1:00 to
5:00 or one to 10% the next cycle.
And that's what's really going to be driving the next wave in
the next cycle. So I'm very excited about that
as well. I 100% agree with you.
I think that, you know, if, because I see it from like a,
you know, and, and not to mention Tesla, because a lot of
people slightly, but Tesla actually owns like it's like
10,000 Bitcoin, like they're not doing the micro strategy
strategy, but they he has. And it's not only Tesla, it's
SpaceX too, right, which is really interesting.
But you're the way that I would say it is.
If you're not, if you don't have Bitcoin on your on your balance
sheet, you are at a competitive disadvantage to companies that
do. And the reason I'm saying this
is obviously Michael Sailors proving it.
But you know, Doctor Ross, you've known me for a while now
and somehow I made managed to make a like my hobby into a
podcast, into a small media company.
I have no idea what, how, what happened, but one of the things
that we've applied it's simply is we have a Bitcoin like our
treasury, at least half. I can't do full because I have
to make payroll every month. But you know, at least half or
more than like 5060% is in Bitcoin and it's your runway
just keeps getting longer. It's, it's a literal cheat code.
I can't, I can't emphasize that enough.
Like if you're a business and you don't have a Bitcoin
treasury, you have no idea what you're missing.
And I think it obviously it applies to people on an
individual level as well, right? If you're on a Bitcoin standard,
but I think no one really saw it, you know, the, the, the, it
really became popular, you know, is your, is your, it's not only
are you on a Bitcoin standard, is your business on a Bitcoin
standard that really started to become popular relatively
recently, but it is such a cheat code like, and it does.
You don't even have to have a Bitcoin business.
It's just any business. If you are on a Bitcoin
standard, you're, you're at a competitive advantage compared
to everyone else that's not on a Bitcoin standard.
And also your, your runway, your treasury is just going to keep
expanding, you know, over time. So, and and then I guess my
question to you, Doctor Ross is, is that just because of of I, I
don't the correct word is not deflationary, but is that just
because Bitcoin just increases in purchasing power over time?
Is it as simple as that? All right, it's a decentralized
secure neutral energy money. That's how I describe it.
It like those terms and I choose them carefully neutral when I
say that basically it's a fixed supply, obviously, right.
So to and Jeff Booth talks about this all the time.
So it captures the deflationary forces that technology.
So humanity, human progress is deflationary.
Deflationary games are captured in Bitcoin.
And so the two things, and it's just, this is just like
literally alien. We're speaking a different
language to people in the Fiat system.
They can't even imagine this because we grew up in this
inflationary world, right? This Fiat world where everything
gets more expensive, the packages get smaller, the amount
of food gets smaller and quality decreases on the Fiat system.
And that's what we're all used to.
You get less and less and less for more and more and more every
year. It's crazy, it's criminal and
it's theft by the So we all know that, right?
We don't have to talk about that.
What is Bitcoin? It's, it's literally what, what
does it do? It, it, it means that prices go
down year after year on average, yes, every 3rd or every fourth
year they go up, but then they go down again and over time they
go down South. Overtime prices go down.
Overtime quality improves. Every bitcoiner I've I've ever
known, and I've known a lot of Bitcoiners, including myself,
we've all, as we've gotten more and more on a Bitcoin standard,
we've experienced life getting cheaper, quality improving.
And so when I tell people who are in in so I'm a physician,
right? You guys know that I have
doctors talk to me all the time, like, well, should we put it on
our balance sheet? And I'm like, do you want your
medical practice? The do you want the cost of your
goods and services to get cheaper and the quality to
improve? Like, well, yeah, I'm like, so
put Bitcoin on your balance sheet Like, well, you can't, I'm
like, you can do that. I'm like, like you keep, you
keep like Nico, you know, you run a business, you have a
payroll, but you usually have a little extra money.
You, you know, you don't ever go all the way down to 0 in your
bank account, put 10% of it into Bitcoin and just start doing
that. And then as and that will grow.
And then as you, your, you know, comfort level with Bitcoin
increases, you can increase that to 20 and then to 30 and then to
50, you know, and that's what it happens to every individual.
And then it happens to every business and every business that
does that it, life gets cheaper and quality improves.
And so I'm so excited about this for healthcare, cause healthcare
in the US is super frustrating for doctors.
We're, we hate it. The system is broken.
It's run by administrators and pharma companies and insurance
agents and, and they all get in our grill all the time and tell
us what we can and can't do. And it's super frustrating and
patients hate it because they're like the doctor said I needed
this, but insurance just declined it, you know, and, and
it's, it's all of this stuff. And, and it's not just
healthcare that's broken, by the way, the education system is
broken, The military is broken. All of these systems have been
taken over by this crappy Fiat system.
And the government's got their fingers and everything, right?
And you can look at charts like, so going back to healthcare, the
administration staff of, of, of healthcare has gone like this
and the doctors has gone like this, right?
And, and, and as the administration goes up here,
people are more and more unhappy.
The doctors and patients aren't happy.
Same thing in finance. I shut down my RIA this year,
which is very hard and it was a hard decision, but I'm super
happy I did it had I like 120 clients that I that I had to let
go of because the regulators were just driving me nuts.
I, I was butting heads all the time by people who literally sit
in an office who don't know how to invest, forcing me to the
comply to their rules and how to invest safely for my clients.
And it just drove me nuts And I'm like, I'm out.
I can't take this anymore. OK, so I'm, I'm sorry, I'm going
on a little tangent. All Bitcoin does is make life
cheaper and it makes quality improve for all of humanity.
And so if you want that for your life, then you should own
Bitcoin. If you want it for your family,
you should own Bitcoin. I'm a Christian.
If you want it for your church, you should own Bitcoin.
If you want it for your pension or your endowment.
If your university is struggling right now, you should own
Bitcoin in your endowment or your pension or just in your
savings things account. If you're a business and
especially if you're a physician and you run a private physician
practice and there are a lot of people who follow me who do
that, put Bitcoin on your balance sheet.
You will soon over the over 10, probably within five years, but
over probably 10 years, you'll start to have better services.
You'll all have more purchasing power, meaning you'll make more
money. You will be able to provide
cheaper, better, cheaper and better equipment.
Like right I, I'm a radiologist. You can get the best MRI scans,
the best CT scans, the best equipment for your patients
because you're making so much more on the Bitcoin standard.
And you can actually charge less on a Bitcoin standard for your
patients. So people will love you, you'll
be super happy, Everyone will be happier.
It literally is better money for a better world.
And it's so simple, but nobody does it because everybody's too
scared because they don't want to disrupt the status quo.
So I'm like, be bold. Take a chance, like trust
yourself and your intuition and start doing that with yourself
and with your family and with your business and, and then you
can thank me 10 years from now or thank Negros.
Absolutely. I mean, it's, it's, it's, it's a
cheat code. It's a cheat code.
You know, it's, it's, it's and it's so we're so the world is so
nihilistic because they've just been conditioned to live in the
Fiat system. And despite all of that, the
free market still works, right? Despite all of that, you know,
people are able to put businesses together despite, you
know, all these disadvantages. And then Bitcoin comes in and
you're and and it's, it's, it's like almost too good to be true,
right? But all it is, it's just, you
know, and I, I love the way that Jeff Jeff Booth puts it.
He's like, look, this is the way that.
Prices should be This is the way that the market should function.
You know it is. It is unreasonable to think that
you know, for whatever reason, on on Saturdays and Sundays, you
can't buy whatever stock you want.
Like, the market just shuts down if the volatility is too big.
There's a circuit breaker. And then in regards to Bitcoin,
it's like, you know, it's actually properly reflecting the
improvements in innovation and the improvements in
productivity. And he makes the case that it's
like the world is naturally deflationary and Bitcoin is the
only thing that is accurately portraying that because
everything else is so manipulated that it, it's, it's
it, it, it makes it seem like life is supposed to be getting
more expensive. Where why should it be getting
more expensive? And, you know, and I, the way
that I'm seeing it, Doctor Ross is like my generation.
So I'm a millennial and Jen's years, like we really got the
short end of the sick with 2008, 2009.
And somehow you're looking at it.
If it wasn't for Bitcoin, you know, like I, I would have less
opportunities than my parents. I, I wouldn't have the ability
to purchase a house the way they did.
I wouldn't have like the job opportunities.
But the world on paper is richer.
It's much richer. So what is going on there?
If you're on a Bitcoin standard? I love, you know, I love, I love
this one. The first time I heard it.
It's like the American dream isn't dead.
You're just using the wrong unit of account, you know, So you
know, it, it's, it's definitely a cheat code.
But anyways, we are, we are getting to the top of the hour.
And I do want to give you one last opportunity, Doctor Ross,
you know, to the audience, we haven't talked in a while.
What are some last words of wisdom that you have for
everybody heading into what we anticipate is going to be the
year of the parabola? Everyone's really excited.
What would those words of wisdom be?
Oh man, OK, I'll try to. I'll try to be concise, but let
me think. So you talked about Bitcoin
being a cheat code. I totally agree with that.
One thing I want to say to that or to qualify is there's there's
a certain personality that gets freaked out when they hear that
term because they're like, I don't want to cheat.
That sounds bad. It sounds ominous, right?
OK, so just so people understand, you're not cheating
if you use it. Bitcoin is totally
permissionless. You don't have to ask permission
to use it. It's an opt in system.
It's optional, unlike government Fiat where you have to use it,
right? You can decide to use it.
And that's one of the things that makes Bitcoin beautiful.
So it's it's it, but, and to Nico's point, it is a cheat code
for a better life. If you want your life to get
cheaper and you want quality to improve, then get yourself on a
Bitcoin standard, even if that means just getting off of 0 and
just owning a few Satoshi's like it, it, it, that's how it all
starts. The second thing is, and I, I
have to credit Jeff Booth for this is I get asked all the time
and it's because I'm a fund manager to, to make price
predictions in dollar terms. And we all get excited about the
bull markets and we all get excited about the exponential
move higher that we're all expecting.
Try not to focus on that though, right?
Like think about Bitcoin as prices go down.
Technology I, I show all the time.
I still do this over on Nostril where I show every month an
updated page from the Fred, the the Saint Louis Federal Reserve.
They have a page that says buying eggs with Bitcoin.
Look, you can look it up yourself, go Google it and it
shows the price of eggs in dollars and then right below it,
it shows the price of eggs in Bitcoin since January of 2015.
It is fascinating to look at and I love it that they have it on
there because they originally put it on there to show that
Bitcoin is too volatile and you shouldn't use it.
Look how much better it is on in dollar terms.
But what what that chart shows, and I've started showing it in
five year increments, so rolling five year periods over the last
five years, the price of eggs in dollar terms has gone up about 2
1/2 times, so about 150%. I think it's a little higher
than that actually. And, and in Bitcoin terms, it's
actually been cut in half. It's a little more than cut in
half. So you're paying less than half
for eggs than you were five years ago if you live on a
Bitcoin standard and you're paying 2 1/2 times more if you
have dollars. So think about Bitcoin as prices
go down and quality improves technology, don't get too
excited. You're going to see people
getting making all this money and they're going to talk about
trading Bitcoin. But I would just really
encourage you to think of it as the world's greatest savings
technology, right? The only reason we have these
big, huge increases in price are because of these liquidity
waves. When the waves come in, just
like a wave comes, it's super powerful, but then it passes you
and then it goes down again. And the price, we're going to
have a bear market after that. So yeah, I don't, I don't like
it when people get disenfranchised because they
aped in, they got, you know, they followed, they followed in
AT400K and then now Bitcoin fell all the way back down to 100
gig. And so have a longer term
perspective in mind. I, I can, you know, I can't make
guarantees, but I'm very confident that 10 years from now
the price of Bitcoin will be at least $1,000,000 and probably
more, you know, per Bitcoin. So think about pricing your life
in Bitcoin, think about having a better life.
Think about how can I capture the games that humanity is all
this human progress is making life better and making life
cheaper and, and making quality improve.
You can capture that by owning Bitcoin.
So it's just so much bigger than a, than a trade and, and start
thinking about that way and start trying to live on a
Bitcoin standard And you're, you're, you'll literally start
noticing an improvement in your life a minimum of four years
and, and, and probably sooner. Love it.
I completely agree Doctor Ross, always a pleasure to have you on
the show. Really appreciate it.
Now you have left at Twitter, which now is called X.
So where can people find you and stay up to date with what you're
doing and what you're thinking and what you're working on?
Yeah, so I'm, I'm intentionally being more reclusive now, so
staying out of the, the spotlight a little bit.
I'm on Noster a little bit. I'm actually not on there that
much, but I'm Doctor Jeff on Noster and that's really it.
I run my hedge fund and I, I keep a low profile.
And so, you know, you should follow, if you want to follow
me, follow Nico instead and follow Simply Bitcoin and you'll
be much happier. You'll get a lot more content.
Really appreciate it, Doctor Ross.
Very kind of you. Awesome.