Yo welcome to another episode of Simply Bitcoin IRL today, we
have two very special guests, one of which you're very
familiar because you see them every single day.
We have Optimus Fields my co-host for simply Bitcoin, and
of course Luke Broyles who's been dropping some amazing
Twitter threads. So we're going to get to that
today. We had, we had a bit of a change
up, so I know it's a little bit different, but before we start
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use the promo code simply to get Self a big discount, anyways, no
more delay. I want to bring up our awesome
guests Opti. What are you doing here?
I don't know, dude, what am I doing here now?
We're talking Bitcoin, bro. That's all we do here this.
All we do on this channel, I wanted to change it up.
We had a last-minute cancellation and I was like,
okay, I might just gonna have a conversation with Luke, we Luke
and I had a convert one-on-one conversation recently so I'm
like, okay, let's let's spice it up.
Let's add a little bit of spice. Let's make it interesting.
Let's get Opti. T into this.
And for anyone who doesn't know Opti, you know, he's a lot
smarter than he, when he tells people.
Okay. Did don't blow my secret.
He's a lot deeper than a lot of. A lot of people think,
especially down the film philosophical level, and the
reason I want to bring opt into this conversation is Luke.
One of the things that you told me that never left my mind.
Last time we had this conversation was this idea of
exponential's and how human beings have a hard time
understanding exponential's especially when it comes to
technology when it comes to wealth.
So could you elaborate a little bit about that?
Why do you think that phenomenon is what it is?
Yeah. Why do you why are humans?
Can you guys hear me? Alright.
Yes you're coming in perfectly okay great.
Well yeah first of all thanks to have you back on this.
This is this is fun and like come back on despite the other
cancellation. So to yeah.
So your question why are you humans have difficulty thinking
and exponential's? I think it's pretty simple.
I think the simple answer is just that our brains are
designed to think operate and plan for the future.
ER, in terms of linear units, you know, like right now it's
spring, it's very nice at flowers, are coming out and
everything, but when it's bald and trying to plan for the
winner, whether you're a squirrel burying nuts, or you're
a human, you know, putting corn in your stockpiles for the
winter, you know. Basically, you're planning a
linear amount of food for a linear number of days in a fixed
rate, you know? So if you think in terms of
distance, like, how far is it, take to go to a certain place.
Case you're thinking in terms of steps or Paces for thinking like
thousands of years ago, and today it's the same thing except
we think of it in terms of miles and kilometers.
So when it comes to distance, when it comes to time, when it
comes to energy, like, how many meals do we need?
You know, no matter what kind of society we've had our brains are
oriented and wired and thinking of ways that are linear.
And so I think fundamentally the nature of technological growth,
among other things that are exponential are very difficult
for. Our brains to wrap her head
around, you know, I think one example being the pandemic in
2020, obviously, there's controversy about how it handles
and everything, but one of the reasons it was so immediate and
so fast because it's the same thing with a disease, a disease
can float around for months or years with virtually, nobody
having seen a nobody have experienced it because just
doubling doubling doubling, but it's such a small amount that
it's a small percentage of the general population.
And then all of a sudden it's like, Irwin is getting a disease
and everyone's talking about because it's the same thing in
viral biology where, you know, you just have a doubling or
exponential population and suddenly slowly than suddenly is
the term. So I think whether we're talking
about the rate at which disease is spread it's hard for human
brains to understand. I think we're talking about the
adoption new technologies, I think that's hard to understand.
I think, if we're talking in terms of total amount
Prosperity, I think it's difficult for us to comprehend
and in other things, too. But those are just some
examples. I think fundamentally just comes
down to that are our brains are not designed to understand it
Opti. Well, 100% is your opportunity.
This is this is where I'm not confined by the the live show.
Like, I always like to, I say it all the time as a joke, you
know, I am left side of the right side of the bell curve so
I'm smart enough to understand what Luke says, but I also do my
best to break it down in and just normal example, so that
people understand exactly what's going on.
And my favorite thing to do in regards to In chosen linear is
literally it's this this thought experiment and I first time I
heard this it really blew my mind and it's like the
difference between millions billions and trillions and I
know you guys have seen the visual out there of like you
know a million dollars a billion dollars worth of trillion
dollars and like compared to the Empire State Building.
But my favorite one right here is like all right the difference
between million billions and trillions.
Let's do this one. With s 1.
Million seconds is about 11 and a half days. 1 billion seconds
is 82 years and one trillion second is 32,000 years, it's
like your brain is not supposed to comprehend this stuff.
Big numbers are hard and this is why the average person gets so
confused and especially considering what we're seeing
right now. You know, the FED Central bank's
out there pit printing trillions of dollars.
We're in what like 32 trillion dollar debts.
It's like we're never going to pay this stuff back and you try
to explain this to anyone out there and it's just like a
number. It's just such a big number
People don't understand this, they can't wrap their head
around this and it really reminds me.
Again I have since since I am usually just the producer here,
I'm able to pull everything up, it really reminds me of the
Bitcoin price and the difference between Bitcoin on a linear
scale and a log scale and I always do the same thing where
you know, you do the same thing. It's like hey guys you know this
is the Bitcoin all-time high. This is the 27 all-time high and
this is the 2013 all time high and you can't.
Really grasp the ideas of big numbers, and exponential moves
because your brain is just not designed to understand this
stuff because yes our, you know, the way we go through life is
linear you go one day, you know, 2 day 3 Day 4 day and then the
next thing you know it's years down the line and it's kind of
like a the basic human psychology phenomenon of.
Like if you look at yourself in the mirror everyday you don't
see a change but if you look at yourself in the mirror from you
know, two years to three years Oh, wow.
I am getting so old and I'm changing so much, and it's kind
of back to this whole idea of like slow progressions.
They Don't Really register on the human psychology in the
human brain. But when you start spreading
things down the line, you're like, oh my goodness, things
change so incredibly rapidly and it's back to another me.
My, you know, again, I speak in memes.
Everything I do is I speak in memes.
What's the saying you overestimate, what?
You can do two years and you underestimate what you can do in
10 years. And again, it's just kind of
like human brains aren't really meant to understand.
Exponential is, we're just so used to linear's that.
When you encounter them in your real life, it just it really
messes up everything about the way that you think about the
world because it's so counterintuitive.
You're just like, wait, oh, everything?
I know is wrong. Wait, maybe, I don't know as
much as I know. And again, back to memes.
What's the first thing in The Big Short?
The Mark Twain, tweet, or comment, It's not what you know
that messes you up or it's not what you don't know that hurts.
You it's what you know that really ain't.
And this is like that. How humans work our brain is not
designed to understand every variable in the world.
You're really, like you really work on very, very lack of
detailed information and then you make huge assumptions off of
this. And then when you're faced with
the data, like, oh wait, I was so wrong.
Like, how did I get in? So, So wrong.
It's just like that's just how your brain works and it reminds
me of like movies and storytelling, you know, like the
best storytellers. Don't give you all the answers.
They don't tell you the full story.
It's your brain that fills in all the process and like this
where we are, it's all just The Greatest Story Ever Told and hey
numbers are really hard and math hard for me to.
I just, I just understand this phenomenon.
Like I know that. I know nothing I'm going to
stick by what I said in the very beginning of the show.
Yeah, yeah. See I stick to what I said about
Opti. I don't think you're on the left
side of the bell curve brother. No, no left side of the right
side of the bell curve. Oh okay.
Anyways, Luke. So let's talk about Bitcoin,
it's bring it up, talk about exponentials we got to talk
about Bitcoin. We're talking about
exponential's. I know I know I know like a lot,
a lot of people thinking it's like look the law of big
numbers. It's a lot harder from Bitcoin
to get from you know, from Um, 28,000 to 100,000 and it was
from a dollar to ten dollars. Right.
So I guess you know the question is you know are we are we too
late to bitcoin and then I'm going to ask you the same
question. I don't think I've heard his
answer on that. Yeah, well I think to add to opt
he's point and I love what you were doing was showing the
Bitcoin price chart in both log and linear scale because I think
that's the exact point. And I'd sometimes my show that
the people who say, oh, that's cheating you do that, that's not
fair or whatever it is, you know, and my counter argument to
that would be that it's just how reality Works in like every
facet of science, every facet of physics and chemistry, you know,
reality is in exponential terms are our understanding of
realities and linear terms but reality is an exponential terms,
you know, we are here, you know, humans like two meters tall or
so but if you look down and you zoom in and farther and farther
and farther, They're down two molecules and cells and Planck
length and quarks, you know, that just tiny things.
There are so many orders of magnitude smaller below us and
likewise, if you look outwards to the sky.
If you look, you know, to space, there are so many orders of
magnitude out Beyond us. You know, we're ironically kind
of in the middle here between, you know, the tiniest thing that
we can conceptualize and the whole observable universe were
like more or less than the middle and and it's the same
thing. If you want to map out the total
size. Of galaxies at the total mass or
you know, the total mass of black holes.
You know, you have to talk and logarithmic terms because if you
map them on linear terms, it's like well the largest one, just
dwarfs, everything else, it doesn't become useful, no
visualization is useful on a linear scale.
If you want to map anything in space or do you have anything in
a microscopic world? And it's the same thing here
with Bitcoins. Same thing with value to the
same thing with technology that we have to think in long term.
Terms. So I think I think that's one of
the most important things for people to see with their own
eyes. If you look at it in a linear
chart, it's always going to look like it's a bubble and then it's
dead and it's about balance and Dad but my dad forever and in
this goes to your question which I'm going to just a moment.
But then if you look at it on a logarithmic scale you see oh
okay this is following a hyperbolic adoption curve.
As all Technologies do is just for the first time.
We are pricing a technology in a given number.
You know, it's like when people first invent the light bulb over
mass-producing the light bulb. It's like there was no fixed
number that all the light bulbs in the world was equated to
that. You can then check 24/7 on your
you know, smart device in your hand all the time at 3 a.m. is
you worried about you lost all your money.
We've never had that before. It's all conceptual.
It's never been something tangible like that that we can
see but with Bitcoin because if the nature of Technology that's
just how it is that there is a fixed number.
There is a Number that were pricing them all within and
because we see that we assume it has to be linear like everything
else in life. We see when reality is
exponential like everything has been before it.
So I think I think it's really important.
People understand that this is true in all of nature, but then
when it comes to your question of, are we too late?
Well, if what I just said is correct, then absolutely not,
we're not too late and I think the most frankly, Painfully
obvious example, that is like, how many people do you know in
your everyday life that talk about Bitcoin thing about
Bitcoin? Understand anything about
picking up? How many people walk into the
street to tell you what the difficulty?
Justin is that how many can tell you the difference between a
workgroup steak? How many know the name
halfpenny? It's like people don't know.
And if we assume that this technology becomes adopted, well
then, okay, 99 99 Point 59.3, whatever percent of the world is
yet to adopt it. And so Put aside bitcoin price
put aside price history put aside having cycles per side,
everything else, just that alone should tell you that it's
stupendously early. You know what I was in Fenway
Park recently in Boston with two other bitcoiners and for like an
hour, we were debating in this Arena.
You know, like 30,000 people are so how many of them actually own
Bitcoin, it with their own keys are on self custody?
You know, I like a nun - what non negligible amount like 100
bucks worth of bitcoin or so. And, you know, we were like
debating a Okay, maybe it's five, maybe it's 10, maybe it's
three. And it's like, no matter what we
just kept laughing ourselves silly because it's like in this
whole, you know, it's it's one thing to look at it number,
thirty thousand people and see a bunch of zeros like like you're
bringing up opting. You know, that's one thing, see
the zero. So that's another sit there with
the park and actually see the people.
And be like, wow, there's like at least twenty nine thousand
nine hundred and fifty people here, that don't know anything
about Bitcoin and if Continue Bitcoins adoption curve over the
next 30 Years, like they're probably all going to eventually
learn about it. So, and yeah, no, I don't think
it's too late and I think one more, one more point.
I like to say, they're, I think this would be really interesting
to people when thinking about exponential's and wealth and
everything like that would be that if we just look at today.
And we were to say that the poorest people in the world on
average say I'm about ten thousand dollars, USD net assets
so maybe they're in the developing.
The world, they have minimal, you know, not the best housing
situation. Maybe they have a scooter or
some other form of transportation, much less
privileged, and we are here in the west, you know, let's say,
you know, there's a couple billion people to have ten
thousand dollars of assets and total if they liquidated
everything. And then let's also assume that
on the other far end of the spectrum, the very far left end
of the bell curve, not an intelligence but in Wells, we're
talking about someone with a trillion dollars and I know some
people may not think there are There is out there but I think
you know most of us know that it's a high probability.
There's at least one trillion are out there in the world.
Elon Musk is the public most wealthy person in the world but
you know, that's just because he's public.
But anyway, if we assume that's a spectrum it's like someone
with a hundred million dollars. U.s. is like in the middle
between those two extremes and so it's like if you want to look
at someone that is has like food and security is just getting by,
you know, maybe making $3 USD a day.
Between that level of wealth versus some of the 100 million
dollars u.s. is like the same disparity of wealth between that
person and the wealthiest person in the world or again, to use a
Fenway Park or a stadium metaphor.
It's like, you know, let's say we take the assumptions and
estimates to be correct. And there's roughly, you know,
fifty to eighty thousand, 100 million, 100 million
millionaires, you know like at least in their 50 to 80 thousand
people out there with a net worth of a hundred million
dollars. More, you know, basically if you
took all those wealthy stupidly rich and wealthy, people put
them in a single Stadium. There is just as much wealth
inequality within the stadium as there is between the bottom tier
of the stadium and everyone else in the world.
And so, all that to say is it, is it too late for Bitcoins
like? Well, it's easy for our brains
to think we're too late because we look at Michael cellular.
We look at people that bought in 2013 or 2012 or 2011, we're 2017
or 2019, and we think the oh, we're too late because they have
ten. 10 100 1000 times more sense than we do or so much more
Bitcoin that we do. There's no way I could ever
possibly catch up and there's no it.
And my metaphor with the stadium there is to emphasize on that
point that it's like yes you will never have as much Bitcoin
as Michael sailor. He'll probably have somewhere
between 10,000 and a million times more Bitcoin than you ever
will. And you know, maybe it's even
more dramatic than that but it's like if you're buying today
probably you will have thousands tens of thousands.
Maybe even hundreds of thousands of times more Bitcoin than the
average person will in the future.
And that's, you know, and is a little unfasten about this
conversation and like Luke, when we talked, that was the thing
that literally stuck with me. It's like the, the
exponential's, man. This is where it's a good it all
boils down to this, but why are you so sure?
Why are you so sure about Bitcoin?
What like, what you're talking and absolute and And again and
the only reason I'm giving you push back to the Opti, I know
opting. I feel the exact same way.
It is absolute to us, right? We ask ourselves this question
every single day. Like, are we crazy?
Or are we just right? And I talk a lot for anyone who
doesn't know. We are constantly talking.
I think it's the only way that we do.
We do what we do but Luke, I don't know, I don't know.
I we don't talk as much. I mean, I think we might in the
future if, you know, you know. Yes.
But yeah. It, why are you why are you so
sure? Why are you so sure.
Yeah. Well that's a great question.
But you asset, you know, some, a lot of people think that I'm
lost my mind because I am speaking such absolute and
there's such bold claims. It's like it's so bold.
It's so ridiculous. And I'm speaking with such
conviction, it's like like who is it?
I mean it's like okay what do I know?
I'm a 24 year olds, you know what I want?
But the reason I speak with such absolute Lutz is because I just
thrown every ounce of my thought at this.
And I'm not saying that I'm any smarter or less smart, anyone
else. It's just that I've thrown my
brain at it and I can't find a way in which this isn't the most
probable outcome. Perhaps it's not the outcome
that occurs perhaps. There's a fifty one percent
chance. I'm right and 100 different
scenarios in which it doesn't, you know, but I think it's more
probable than not that this Case.
And why why? Yeah why do I think that?
Well what is bitcoin? Bitcoin is just a piece of
information and history shows. That information is really
difficult to destroy. The Bible has survived and I was
just Israel. Last December and visited the
busy qumran in the Dead Sea. Yeah, we're at which is where
the Dead Sea, Scrolls were found all that.
And it's amazing that basically a bunch of goat herders and, you
know, people from the ancient world were able to meticulously
Preserve the Hebrew scriptures that, you know, now is the Bible
for thousands of years with their primitive ancient
technology. It's like, well, with Bitcoin.
It's a similar idea then that it's just information.
It's just, you know, lines of code.
And as long as somebody somewhere is keeping up code
alive, and, you know, it has their computers plugged in
mining it, you know, running our nodes, you know, all that,
keeping the network alive. It's like that's incredibly
difficult to kill. And so Yes, it's possible that
Bitcoin is not gain Mass adoption, but Bitcoin is just an
idea Bitcoins is information. And number one, I think it's a
very safe assumption to assume that if enough people care about
the information information will survive.
And number two, that the best idea wins, like every time, you
know, that the internet was a better idea than newspapers.
Because internet has again talking about exponential's,
hundreds of thousands, if not hundreds of Millions, Ins of
times of more applications and connections than newspapers ever
could. And you know, it's the same
thing with every other Paradigm in history.
Locomotives were a better idea than horses.
Horses are great horses were the Pinnacle technology for
thousands of years until suddenly we found a way to
Manifest, the idea of transporting massive amounts of
people massive amounts of resources across face via the
locomotive and the best idea, one out.
And so why am I so absolute? Bitcoin is like, well assuming
information survives and assuming it's the best idea,
then it should just take over everything.
And I'm very confident. It's going to survive.
I'm most confident going to survive and I'm pretty confident
that it's the best idea. I mean what's the other answer
guys like so, Digital currencies from to make digital currencies
like like, what Sheba? I mean, like every gold is the
best idea besides Bitcoin and it's a it's a really good idea.
You don't give the gold bugs or credit like this like like
scooping gold has worked for thousands of years and it's a
really good idea. But why has gold not been
transact with for hundreds of years?
Like, well we just can't we just can't do it anymore.
You know you can't have an analog, you know metal.
Keep up with the velocity of money, we need in the modern
world. Your transactions are so small.
So instantaneous and there's so numerous that it just seems like
an inferior idea to bitcoin and that's not saying it's a bad
idea, it just seems a bit coins better idea.
And so anyway given those two assumptions, I don't see any
other outcome, unless there's a better idea coming along but
it's been 14 years. No one's had a better idea and I
don't even know how where to begin to think about a better
idea. I don't know how you get better
than perfect scarcity. Yeah.
Dude beautifully said Opti you want to follow up on that, I
mean hard to follow up on that one.
But on your last Point like we're bitcoiners aren't the
first ones to talk about the idea of Bitcoin or the idea of
energy money. You know, there's been a lot of
great thinkers around throughout the history of time.
The modern modern history, talking about energy money, and
again, like to talk about what Luke said, it's like, I don't
know how much better money we can get like we already have the
energy money. Me like how is there going to be
a 10x Improvement on bitcoin i-it's around?
I'm not that smart and I'm almost positive.
We can't find a 10x Improvement on bitcoin and to Luke's point
you know like I know I get pushed back when I say this but
like gold failed gold failed in the modern world or else we
wouldn't be in the Fiat world that we're in right now and
Bitcoin is a 10x Improvement. It might even be a bit more
Improvement on gold but it's definitely a 10x Improvement on
Fiat and this is where we are right now.
Like what's, what's the economic law?
Russians law, you know, like the best money will win.
The best idea will win. As Luke was saying and again,
like, I am fundamentally team human.
I am not Opti, you know optimistic fields for no reason.
I, I fundamentally like to always look at the bright side
of things, and, and I really do think that as, as much as humans
are, you know, the most evil thing on planet Earth, the most,
the apex predator. We are also the best, you know,
animal on planet Earth. So, I try to balance these ideas
of like we have. We have so so much room to grow
but we also have to acknowledge like who we are and so I always
try to point things in like team human.
So I'm always hopeful on humanity and I think that humans
fundamentally will wake up to the idea of Bitcoin and I
fundamentally always try to look at the good side of humans and
it's like look fundamentally. I believe that humans want
freedom, whether that is true I'm still up to the idea that
maybe I am wrong here. You know, I look around and I do
realize that we are a herd mentality, you know, we are a
social creature. And we do have to look around
and look at, look at our friends and our tribe, and basically try
to understand what's the best movement forward.
But I do believe that as much as collectivism seems to be maybe
like a natural phenomenon in human psychology.
I do believe that humans want freedom that human seek freedom
and then If you add that with the idea that we need a
technology to save it, you know, fundamentally we don't, we're
not moving into this utopian World in ten ten years.
Like I know a lot of bitcoiners talk about like, oh man, he's
going to disappear overnight and I'm like, guys, like let's not
recreate the wheel here, human psychology takes a long time
again, talking about exponentials takes a long time
for human psychology, human behavior to change whether
that's you know, 10 years, 100 years.
I think we will get to a point where we look back now.
And we're like, wow. We're basically living in a
utopian world compared to where we are now because of our
productivity because humans are able to save.
But back to the idea like Bitcoin is an improvement on our
money. It is an evolution of our money
and fundamentally. Right now we have broken money.
The technology that we use for money is is broken, it doesn't
work. The only reason it's working is
because we have you know people PR people out there lawyers and
attorneys. Oh, and you know, the small
cabal of people in control of the money that still are pulling
the wool, over the eyes of the, the majority of people.
And I think we're getting to a point now.
And of course, I know that you can kick the can down the road a
lot longer, but I think we're getting to a point now where,
you know, reality will start to push back on, on the fake world
that we are, you know, clown world that we live in and I
really do think that, hey, you know, maybe it, maybe it's after
this, having You have to next having, but there will be a
point where the, you know, the central Bankers, the
bureaucrats, as I like to call them the unproductive class
completely lose control of the financial world.
Now do they have they pulled out all the tools in the bag yet?
Probably not but yeah, exactly, but I do think that slowly but
surely human to our waking up to this idea of wait.
Why am I being pushed so hard? Like why is why is the
trajectory of humanity moving in this way?
When there's The fundamental divide between what I view, as a
normal individual and what the official narrative is, and I
again I go back to like, I'm team human, I think humans are
hopeful, I think humans do understand that.
Yo, I want to guide my own life. I have a brain.
I have a, you know, some sense of Common Sense here.
And I can choose and pick what is best for my life.
And the fact that I am getting corralled to use something that
steals for me, which is the status quo, which is a broken
money. Humans, will wake up to this and
back to the original question. Like, are we early?
I do the same. Thought experiment that Luke
does. I do this every single time I go
out. Look guys, I'm not perfect.
I still go out and hang out with, you know, with my Bitcoin
friend will go get some drinks, will go to the bar and I look
around this happened without fail.
Every time I go out, there's a moment when I'll sit there, I'll
order you know, I'll order my tequila soda and I'll chill and
I'll take a sip and I look around and I just think like,
okay, how many People here, have Bitcoin and every single time
without fail exactly as Luke's doing zero without fail.
I default to maybe one or two people, hold a little bit of
Bitcoin but then you go yeah, exactly.
And then you go down but like how many of them are you know
toxic Bitcoin Maxis and I'm like okay zero like there's
absolutely no one I'm convinced there's no one out there that
understands Bitcoin or cares about Bitcoin like we do and
this is my fundamental Understanding of that were
early. I go outside like I know, I know
you guys don't leave your Twitter, you don't leave the the
internet. Yeah, you don't leave the the
black screen and you don't talk to normal people, but I don't
think normal people for the majority have woken up to
bitcoin. And I just I, when I go to the
grocery store, you know, I still use normal.
I still use Normie grocery stores, guys, I know Tomatoes,
Tomatoes, but I walk around. I'm like, how many of these
people have Bitcoin? Probably none?
How many of them? And Bitcoin probably even
smaller and then it's like, okay I know that people have heard
about Bitcoin. I'm convinced that almost
everyone on the planet has at the very least, heard about
Bitcoin. But do they understand it?
Like we do know, I know for a fact that this is the case,
because I say it all the time, I know Bitcoin is like to say, oh,
the Bitcoin price doesn't matter, yada yada yada.
I think that's wrong. I think in the big head, like
the way I look at the Bitcoin price is in my opinion, the
Bitcoin price is a real-time Trigger people's understanding
of what Bitcoin is. And again, I think humans value
freedom, I think humans value something that they can save in
and Bitcoins under 30 K right now.
Like, on all metrics. It is so undervalued, it is so
early and that what? Like we just said, Bitcoins a
10x Improvement on gold. It's maybe five percent of
Gold's market cap let alone, when we, when we go.
And yeah, yeah, exactly. Like, when we go into the, Greg
Faust numbers of the total addressable Market, It's like
nine hundred trillion dollar, like, even if we get fractions
of this, we are still early by every metric and I'm reminded of
something that Luke said the last time you guys talked.
And and it really stuck with me and you said looking backwards
at the Bitcoin price, you can think that you're late.
But looking forward, especially since none of us have a crystal
ball, we have no idea where this is actually going.
We, you know, we don't understand exponential's.
And of course it, you know, it takes a takes a lot of energy to
turn around the Titanic. But looking forward from here, I
think we are going to be absolutely Blown Away by how
much the SAT we have under our control right now are worth and
purchasing power moving forward. It kind of again reminds me of
what CK says, you know, 37 SATs for generational wealth and
maybe that is Hopi. Mmm.
And maybe it is. A lot of us thinking like oh
we're so much smarter than we are.
Like we're so much better than we are but I fundamentally think
it just back to just some basic logic again.
I break this down left side of the right side of the Bell.
Could break this down as easy as I can.
I look around, I'm gonna I'm gonna get upset every time I
did. It's an Eco don't sell me too
much. Don't sell me too much.
I look around. And I know that most people
don't have Bitcoin. And then I understand how big
the total addressable Market of Bitcoin is and it's like, it on
every metric. It is we're so early.
It just it really, it really boils down to like the world
doesn't understand what Bitcoin is and we have this opportunity.
Now we get we get to usher in the next era.
We are the ones that understand that Bitcoin is an improvement
on our money, the evolution of money and no one knows like no
one understands this and all we have to do is just evangelize
Bitcoin wake people up to this get Bitcoin in people's hands
and slowly but surely you know, we will be Vindicated and hey we
got time. We're all young.
What are you know? Where I'm 30.
I'm in, you know, my early 30s, like Luke's, mid-20s Nico,
you're 30, like we have all we have is time.
And now, our time is valued more, because we hold Bitcoin.
It's like, man, I hate to say we already won because it makes us
like a pathetic, but like Bitcoin is the best technology
Bitcoin will fundamentally win. The only thing that really
terrifies me is this idea of you.
You know, are humans, maybe a lot dumber than I give them
credit for and will they be apathetic to this good idea?
Because the best idea, doesn't necessarily always win but it
usually does and Bitcoin is the best idea.
So I think people will understand the like, the, what's
that? What's that scaly said?
I came for the money, but I stayed for the money, we all
followed into Bitcoin and here we are afterwards.
Like, oh, I am so glad I followed into Bitcoin because
now, I understand what is actually going on in the world.
Yeah, like after after you pay your dues and I kind of want to
focus on that point up to you buried the bit the lead a bit,
right? And it kind of reminds me of
this question that Natalie Brunell asked Michael sailor in
a coin Stories podcast and she asked him she said what keeps
you up at night and I'll never forget his response.
His response was people just don't care about sound money or
people just don't care about money and And my girlfriend had
a, very astute observation. I brought this up to Jeff voof
to and he came on the show. Like, I think I scared him a
little bit when I, when I said the response.
But I said, you're and one of the things that I love about my
girlfriend is that she, she's very intuitive.
She did. It's like something that, you
know, you eat most of us that go through the stop process and
where they can give I was like, okay, this is how I get to this
conclusion where she's just like This is what I see, and it's
like, you know, it's that intuition.
And she said something very similar to Michael sailor,
something, very similar to Opti, just like, I think sometimes
like, Niko's, like, you're right about everything, but you
underestimate how stupid people are, if it's just a terrible way
of saying it, I apologize. But, you know, in a way I'm
thinking about what Opti was describing when he goes to a bar
and he grabs his tequila so And he looks around and people are
just distracted by the bread and circuses.
So, I mean, Luke, how do you incorporate that into your
answer? How do you incorporate that into
your thinking, right? We're right, obviously we're
right about Bitcoin. Obviously, Bitcoin is the
soundest money. The world has ever seen, but you
could have said the same argument.
Communism is definitely a bad idea.
You know, the incentives are not aligned economically, it's
unviable but holy thing that think does not go away, right?
You know, you still have Cuba North Korea.
That's just their full balls to the wall.
That's they're attempting to make it happen.
So what about that? Luke?
What about just human nature in general?
Does Bitcoin need everybody? Well, there is a lot there
between you guys. That was a lot of diapers to
take a note. So yeah, a lot of things to
think about coming out, like everything you just touched on.
It is so hard because we just start going.
It's like there's 10 different rabbit Trails there.
It's just, you can't even get halfway through one of them in a
90-minute podcast. But anyway, yeah.
So your question, like, about human nature, basically.
If Bitcoins biggest threat, is that people don't care about
sound money. And I think Michael Sailors,
right? People just do not care.
I think, I think there's two ways to look at that they were
that are not to build off each other.
I think one way is just again, go back to exponential's in
think, backwards, and remember that, most people don't care
about Solutions because most people don't realize that these
Solutions are solutions to problem, this, don't even exist
yet, you know, like a hundred years ago, one of the biggest
problems was that there wasn't enough nitrogen.
You know, there was a good enough, nitrogen to feed the
world and everyone thought it's going to be Global famine.
We're going to have to cut down all the trees in the world and
plant all these crops because there's just not going to be
enough. Nitrogen is going to be
overpopulation. It's going to collapse UMass
famine, you know, just basically doomsday and it's like, well,
essentially the fritz Haber process with nitrogen,
everything that sort basically, is allowed us to have an extra
four billion humans alive today on the planet.
And actually most people don't realize this, but now we're
using less force and where your, when we were in the past in the
recent past and we're In were cutting down less trees in order
for crops and everything like so it's so it's my point being.
How do you explain somebody in the 1400s?
Or how do you explain to somebody that doesn't know
anything about chemistry because it's not been discovered yet the
significance and the importance of discovering a given procedure
in creating nitrogen and putting it back to the soda figure.
It's like you can't explain these solutions to people to
pass because they can't they can't picture the problems you
know likewise you can't again the look Emotive versus the
horse. You can't explain the
significance of the locomotive to people that are only thinking
in terms of horse problems, it's just you can't do it.
And that's why I think a lot of it is stupidity, especially with
certain people, perhaps but I think more than anything it's
just that it's hard to communicate different eras and
that's why I emphasize ancient world modern world.
So I think that's one component is just that humans have trouble
understanding what I think. The second component regarding
human nature is that I believe that all human.
Have a fallen nature. One of the things up to you is
talking about with Desiring freedom and the great irony in
that is, you know, I'm a Christian.
And so I believe, you know, the the in Genesis about when Adam
and Eve took the fruit, I mean, what were they really doing?
They were craving Freedom. They were taking the fruit and
saying we reject. God's truth, who reject God's
Authority? You know, I don't want to get
all theological here, but it's basically the same idea that we
want to be in charge. We want to have her own Freedom,
we don't want to submit ourselves to God, we do Want we
want to obey, we want to disobey and do her own thing.
So, I think you're right, not even just a philosophical or
historical sense of people want freedom.
I think it's true in a spiritual and a theological sense to, but
that's all I'll say about that. But I think ultimately because
of that because our desire for that freedom and our desire, I
would argue all as well, for corruption is so deep.
That as long as we have the ability to force that corruption
onto the world and force it on to others.
If we are able To do that, eventually it's going to happen
because even if we're righteous and even if we're, you know,
goody two shoes or whatever and we don't we don't hurt other
people with our own power that we have eventually someone's
going to do that. It's like a hundred percent
certainty and so you mentioned North Korea.
You know you have all the people in China and people in other
areas of the world to that are under just incredible amounts of
tyranny. And I think the difference with
Bitcoin to all these other tools is that we have Yet found a way
at which humans can gain control of Bitcoin.
Again. We haven't yet found a way in
which people using Bitcoin or operating within Bitcoin can
exploit it to corrupt it and damage other people or harm
other people both in terms of their finances non-violently and
also violently. And I think that's the really
important distinction with Bitcoin to all these other
Technologies. And I think that's the really
key point that most people don't understand why the Bitcoin is so
passionate. It's like that's the big deal.
The big All is it for what seems to be the first time in history.
We have a technology that its own operation and survival is
inherently separated, from humans, desire to corrupt
things. And so yeah, I think it's a real
problem that people don't care about some money and I think
it's a real problem that people are corrupt But ultimately I
think the design of Bitcoin is that it's designed to function
and not harm anyone, even if all the actors within the network
are trying to harm each other and I think that's why Jason
Lowry for example. With his software thesis, which
is very controversial. I think that's like one of the
really important pieces of the Bitcoin thesis is understanding
its incentive structure, changed Warfare and violence in general.
So and I said a lot there but and I have more thoughts to but
other things you said but that's that's just my basic view on
that. I have a couple more thoughts,
on some things. Opti said if you want me to get
into those yeah I would love you.
I know, but first, I've never thought of that way in life.
Theological sense. But I'm definitely going to be
using that moving forward, but jump in add more.
Yeah, no, yeah, that's that's where it is.
You know, Abby what in Freedom and you know, people that's, you
know, I on Twitter, I both make it now.
I'm a Bitcoin and Christians, like that's one of the things
that people, you know, are Christians, talk about is like
your slave to God and you will be handed.
Anyways, it's like this fascinating connection between
pride and freedom and but anyway, that's yeah, that you
can have a bunch of rabbit hole. I mean, let's let's explore
those rabbit holes. This is we're going to release
this on Saturday. Day.
So, you know, for anyone? Hold on top, do you take this?
Well, I don't know where you're going with this one but we
ignore Nico. Luke.
What were your other thoughts and well I will jump off that
because I do have I do have no. Okay sorry very important
conversation right? Really back in we're pivoting
back, just like Jay Powell. Okay.
Yeah. Right.
Turn on the money. Printers Opti.
Abdi and I are Christians to do great.
Okay. We'll just keep it to ourselves.
We don't we don't really say anything.
But I mean it's a very interesting topic.
It's because it's kind of like a theological topic, right?
And I think the reason that for example, Luke, I keep it to
myself, is because the moment, you say, your Christian things
happen, things happen, right? And your interpreted differently
and people look at you. Differently, right?
You know it's like Bitcoin is a buzzword, whenever you say,
Bitcoin everyone in the financial space has an opinion
and like their brains shut off more or less.
And I would argue it's similar with Jesus Christ.
It's like, you say the name and people have their own opinions
and you know, I mean, obviously they're very different certain
regards but yeah, I get what I get what you're saying that
people have reactions, but but, but yeah, even if someone isn't
a Christian, I think there's a real discussion here because
Christians How do you survive for thousands of years?
And so, even if you don't believe the book itself, I think
there's something really important.
There's like, what is the basis of the Bible is basically saying
that humans are to submit themselves to higher power,
which obviously, in Christian doctrines, God.
But what, what is bitcoin promising to solve?
Well, if money is a technology, which we value, everything else
in society, then somebody coming in and saying, I can print money
is Is them saying, I am God within this Paradigm, dudes.
I think creating money out of nothing.
Let there be light. I am making something out of
nothing. I can violate physics.
I can do what I want. I can I can reap without sewing.
That's, that's what theaters is Bitcoin is?
Bitcoin is saying no, nobody can do that.
Morally, nobody can do that in accordance with the way reality
works, in the way that God designed the universe.
So, dude, So I've tweeted that before ours, I said
specifically, I said no one deserves the Godlike power of
being able to create money for free.
That another man has to work with work for and what are the
misalignment of incentives? When that happens, right?
What are the misalignment of incentives?
And, you know, the Luke. I'm sure you're very familiar
with this line, absolute power corrupts, absolutely and what
type of Godlike power. Do you does a does a mortal man
possess? When they Have the ability to
basically create money out of thin air, right?
And yeah, yeah, it's just, it's a fascinating conversation.
As you can use that money to acquire anything in this world.
So it's your, it's like if I'm can print money, then basically
I can print houses and I can print food and it's like it's
anyway like I think we've made the point but yet this desire
for free ends desire for corruption.
That's desire for these things, I think is ultimately why we
continue to see tyrannies and dictatorships today and that's
the beauty. The Bitcoin is that the coin
doesn't solve human, the human heart, but Bitcoin does detach
it from money and money is underpinning layer of society.
And so, if you can do that, the implications are really
profound. So I want to get your take on
this, right, because I said this actually said this in the thank
God for Bitcoin spaces. Today I said Bitcoin is
connected to reality to the universe via proof of work.
Right. It's fundamentally connected to
the truth and I the interesting phenomenon that I've seen over
the last, you know, literally year 7 for me and Bitcoin
heading into your eight very soon.
Congrats on your birthday. And one of the things that one
of the interesting phenomenon that I've noticed is how Bitcoin
has actually put made people more faithful and they're in
their cultural practice of Faith, right?
Because if you happen to be born anywhere around the world,
right? If you happen to be born in a
Muslim country, your practices face is probably Islam.
You happen to be born in Latin America like Opti and I, you
know, you're most likely Catholic, right?
If you happen to be born in, you know, in the United States.
You're most likely, you know, all the other denominations,
right? Oh, what a one of the
denomination's, right? If you happen to be born in
Asia, you know, you're most likely a Buddhist, right?
You know, if you happen to be born in mainland China, you
know. I think it's atheism, but it's
interesting though, is that religion is still very, very
popular in mainland China, even though the state religion is
atheism. So, you know, it's kind of like,
when they say that there are no covid cases there.
It's kind of like the same thing.
There's no questions, there's no Muslims there.
Yeah. No, that's it.
There's a ton of Christians. There's a ton of Muslims and
it's interesting, right? Because what tends to happen is
like, no, I'm not going to go down that rabbit hole.
Anyways, let's bring it down to bitcoin.
Let's bring it back. Let's bring it back to bitcoin.
So have you noticed that pattern or am I seeing things that are
not there? No.
Yeah, I think you're right. And I think obviously, since
we're Christians are speaking with that specifically, but even
for those aren't Christians, I think we all can agree that as
We talked more people within Bitcoin and we're in the space
longer and longer, we see that a larger percentage within the
Bitcoin space become more spiritual, enlightened pursue
religion, find Jesus. You know, they're thinking about
these long things and why is that fundamentally happening?
It's happening. I think, for multiple reasons, I
think. One reason is that they realize
that their understanding of reality has been destroyed.
They realize, oh wait, my whole life working for 40 years or my
whole, my all my existence, make more money.
And that's a lie, that the money I've been working for the, which
I did nominate all my time, and all my value, all my expenses,
and all my incomes and is actually just a complete life.
So I think that foundational like whoa, that waking up from
the Matrix that we talked about, I think that really puts people
in a spot where they begin to question other things.
I think that's also why we see bitcoiners have a tendency
towards other conspiracy theories.
Some of which are possibly probably Biblia, Jewett and
others are a little out there but it's the same thing.
I think it's because our worldviews been shown.
So shattered that now, we're trying to make sense of this new
world, that we understand a Bitcoins, big part of that,
definitely. But some people find the rest
that new understanding in conspiracy theories, others, and
religion others in taking care of their bodies.
You know, people also like to try to lose weight for the first
time after after becoming a bit quite.
So I think people Express that in different ways.
I think it's just because Bitcoin extends our time Horizon
In addition to already having them question their worldview
and I think ultimately that is going to prove to be a very good
thing. Yeah, yeah, exactly.
And you know, the awesome part about Bitcoin to, right?
And he's, we've been talking a lot about Christianity's that
it's inclusive, right? And that that's the beautiful
part, right? Is that it's not exclusive right
at whatsoever. It doesn't actually doesn't
really matter what you believe in.
You know, you can use Bitcoin and, and I think it really, it
really, It's people differently. And, you know, some people that
it's what you said, right? FC Doyle's no more.
I'm going to start eating. Just all carnivores.
Some people are like, let me let me let me get my body fit.
Some people are like I found God again you know it just but it
exactly like once you break that Fiat Matrix and you start to
realize you know we've all been down this Rabbit Hole.
The first couple of years that you're in Bitcoin you start
having like you don't understand and then and it's like youyou go
to your loved ones and you're like but Don't get it and
they're like if you're fucking insane, like, leave me alone.
Your eyes are freaking crazy. It's just money.
That's like, no, but he'd understand.
It's not just the money. It affects every facet of life,
right? And then you just kind of like
go down that rabbit hole after you want to add to that and then
we'll pass I mean--can. Like you kind of reminded me
like right there. It's really that like coming to
Jesus moment when you when you find Bitcoin you're just like oh
my God. And I remember John Valles kind
of said the same thing a long time ago.
And when I like, it's like the first part I ever went on.
He was kind of connecting it with like the Psychedelic
journey and how like people that do psychedelics they finally
they have like this profound breakthrough and then the like
like you can have this too and it's like it's all this kind of
the same, same thing. Like I really do believe, you
know, and that is content just a belief but I really do believe
that humans whether they want to or not have this this need for
Luke said something something the Beyond is like a spiritual
need. There's you know, the the
Trinity, you know, like body mind and soul.
Like I do believe in like nourishing your soul.
And like there is there's a very real lack of that you know,
material that that information in the world and it's almost
been on purpose and like Nico, you kind of said it, you know,
like we bring in a full circle if we have an energy money Which
right now we're on the Fiat money, which is I always say
it's like completely disconnected from reality.
It's like Road Runner and Coyote like yeah if yeah if you're
opposite of Truth and exactly you're running off the cliff and
we're at that point where it's like you're looking down at your
feet and like, oh my God we are so disconnected from reality.
That every aspect of your being starts to get reorganized around
reality and you kind of come back and you snap back really
hard to reality. Seeing this happen right now,
what we've seen seven bank failures in the last two months
or whatever and is this cuz of Bitcoin or is it just because we
have bitcoiners it, just because Fiat system is just, you know,
finally smacking the wall of reality.
It's probably all of this. But we are coming back to
reality in real time. And at least for us, we have
this, you know, this tool. We have this money, we have an
escape valve. We have, we have a safety boat,
which is Bitcoin. And I've said, in the past, as a
Wheat and it's just an idea. I don't really write much but
when I do right it's always always with this like spiritual
change and it was Satoshi found a way to domesticate human greed
and Anika is kind of pushback on that.
But it's like back to the idea if you have the the almighty
godly power of printing, money, out of out, of thin air and
being able to purchase everything because you're close
to the money printer, well, what is that inherently Guided by it,
it's but Guided by, you know, the lust for power, the last for
greed. And now it's basically you know,
whether it's divine intervention in this question, I wanted to
ask Luke whether it's divine intervention or not, it's
Saturday show, fuck this up. It's definitely, it's definitely
something outside of human, you know, Behavior outside of like,
like Luke said, you know, outside of, of humans hand to
basically destroy destroy and distort, what is good and
whether human, you know, like, obviously it's It's a human
invention, but it takes the power of humans out of the money
and maybe that's what we need as humans is something that's just
completely separate to us. Instilling good action in US,
incentivizing, good action. So it's like look, I know, I
know, I know you are a wretched little human but here we have a
technology in a tool that basically puts you in your place
so that you don't step out of line so that you are connected
to reality. And I think back to like Idea
of, you know, bitcoiners coming to God or whatever because I
definitely had this more, like a very real spiritual awakening.
I guess you would say, like, before I had it, but now I'm
just like, yeah, I'm very adamant.
Like, yeah, I believe in God. Like, yeah, it's very simple.
It's kind of dry now, but it's back to the same idea.
Look, Fiat, money has been completely disconnected from
reality. Well, I think our society, our
culture has also been disconnected from a source and
Bitcoin is a connection back to energy back to the source.
And I think this is just a way whether it's divine intervention
or not. I don't know.
I like to say it is because I like to think of the most like
ridiculous out their thoughts and just like adopt that me
like, yeah, that's what it is. I think there is a very real
need to connect us back to reality and you know what would
most Christians say like God is reality like this is this is
fundamentally where we are God. Energy, God is the universe and
God is truth. God is truth.
And what is bitcoin? Bitcoin is truth.
Bitcoin is energy and its connecting as back to this
reality. And furthermore the reason I
know we are right is because all of us bitcoiners are happy
prospering getting healthy, living a good life, living a
life that our ancestors are telling us.
You should be living. And we always been like, now,
we're smart were modern, you know, with our modern ways.
And now we're kind of like going full circle back into
Traditions, like wait actually. Ali, maybe they had something
right, and maybe we should be a little more in accord with
nature and reality. I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna
say this before, we pass it on to Luke, right?
I think that, you know, specifically, Because there was
broken money and even with the institutions of religion, I
think those institutions themselves got corrupted, right?
And I think that there is a lot of Oppression because of those
things, which definitely led to a lot of people in during some
difficult things, right? And I want to be empathetic to
that. I want to be like very clear and
like kind of lay that out. Since we're going down this
ranking rabbit hole, which I literally avoid but it is the
Saturday special, you're welcome.
Yeah, yeah. So yeah.
I mean, Luke Bitcoin is truth. That is that?
That is a fact, right? It's the you can't deny that.
Bitcoin is not the truth. I actually even tweeted that out
Bitcoin is truth and that was, you know, before it was ever
talked about on Twitter and did really, really Well which tells
me a lot of people were having that thought right?
That Bitcoin is truth, right? And I want to be respectful to
anybody in their beliefs and you know however which way they you
know, they practice faith and how they look at spirituality or
whether you don't believe in anything at all.
Bitcoin is for you. And I think that because Bitcoin
is fundamentally truth and I think because Bitcoin is
fundamentally connected to reality regardless of what your
belief system is or whether you believe in a higher power, you
don't believe in a higher power. You're definitely operating on a
to you CK's language. You're definitely using a better
operating system than you were using before regardless of
whatever your personal beliefs are.
You know, of course, as you know, As what our personal
faiths are Luke. We interpret that in a very
specific way. Anyways, this isn't fascinating
and interesting conversation. Yeah, no, it's really good.
I think, one point disagreement, I have with Unicode would be
that you said that some people don't believe in anything.
I would argue that. I think everyone has a belief in
something. Even if their don't believe in a
God, that everyone has a belief system that they Orient their
lives upon, even if it's complete nihilism, it's a belief
system, I think. And that's One of the reasons
why it's funny when people get upset at me and other people in
line for talking about our personal belief systems, it's
like you know, I wish you wouldn't talk about Jesus, I
wish you wouldn't talk about your belief system, it's like
okay, be we all have a belief system, we might as well talk
about it, so you know where someone's coming from you don't
have to guess it and try and pretend like you can avoid your
statements and your thesis and your conclusions from your
belief system. Like I just think it's more or
less silly. But anyway that's more of a side
comment. Let's see what the other.
Oh, the other question was Do I think that coins divine
intervention? Right?
That was a question. Yeah.
II don't know. I don't think so.
And that's simply because to me. It just seems to be a piece of
technology I made was gutenberg's.
Printing, press divine intervention.
I mean, it, you know, he was doing it to mass-produce Bibles
and how many billions of people have had Bibles in their hands
because of his invention? I mean, it's a big deal and was
that divine intervention? I don't know.
Maybe, I think everything is I think I saw her and I think
hours. He's also, I definitely think
God ordained the printing presses and Bitcoins of engines,
but I don't know. I don't agree with Max Keiser.
I don't think Bitcoin and Satoshi Our God or, you know,
I'm not, I'm not in that train, you know, Bitcoin is technology
and it's wonderful, but I don't think it's a God.
But yeah, anyway, I guess I have a couple closing thoughts.
I guess it is wrapped so much. Yeah.
I guess, I guess the first thing you say, we're talking about
absolutes earlier and I think something important to say
building off of everything, we've been saying about human
nature and exponential's or anything like that.
I think one thing that's really important I've said in other
shows, I don't know if I've said on this one but I think it's
crucial to emphasize that if this is correct, it has to get
worse. Like the current system has to
get worse. Because again, if we understand
the current Global monetary and therefore economic system From
this lens. Well, Jerome, Powell Janet
Yellen, you know, all these people are essentially gods of
these systems of this system and because they are God's of the
system that come out onto their altars, you know, their podiums,
and they declare, if you know what's going to change.
Now we're going to change the values.
We're going to change the structure of everyone's value or
you know it's the same thing. In the same way that pagan gods
of ancient religions are the same way that a polytheistic
religions are the same way. That God of monotheistic,
religions comes out, and decrees rules.
It's the same thing that these Central Bankers do and because
they're human, because these positions exist because these
altars of sacrifice exist, you know, it has to get worse.
Money is information. And if the money is surviving as
a function of distortion of Truth and Distortion of reality,
it's like it can't come back to reality without collapsing and
it can only can continue to serve.
Survive if it's further devoid from reality, so it's like you
don't people in. This is why I think there's such
a stark divide between the bitcoiners that are like trying
to find truth and like, have an optimistic view because their
time preference is lower, or is everyone else's more pessimistic
the new cycle, so pessimistic and so absurd.
And ultimates just why is it? It's because if you're in this
value system where you have a monetary component, its
surviving with all these human gods and all humans are
corrupted. And this moral sense, I mean, it
has to It worse, it money to information it, survives, the
misinformation. It has to get worse.
The amount of centralization has to get worse, the wealth
inequality, being distorted from natural wealth distribution that
has to get worse. The political sphere has to get
worse. You know, it in every, speaking
of masks absolutes, if Bitcoin survives everything outside of
it, has to get worse, for the users within it.
And within Bitcoin, everything is almost certain and I would
argue, absolutely has to get better because everyone that
joins in can only We have wealth and build within that system if
they provide value to other people within that system.
So it's like it he really has to get better.
So I think it's something really important to emphasize for folks
and I think and I get asked a lot, why do I put in the work
and do all these shows and whatever and we were talking
about psychology earlier? I think It ultimately comes to
that this discussion we're having which is way out there.
I think, I forgot. I think was Opti that said,
Earlier but basically that human psychology will eventually catch
up and it's going to be, you know, not a decade whatever and
I think my I agree it probably won't be super fast but I think
one point of at one point to add there.
I think that all three of us have probably ever within the
Bitcoin space fails to realize is that at a certain point,
people are going to beginning to adopt Bitcoin and not even
understand why they're adopting it.
Everyone adopting Bitcoin right now is putting in the work and
thinking it through and putting in time.
It's like most people don't think and most people are going
to adopt this without understanding what's happening.
And so if we think in our minds like wow like me Unicode took
you seven years I guess for me it took about four years or
whatever. I don't, how long took you up
you but it's like for us it takes years you know.
So it's like if adoption is to double from now into the next
iteration of time, you don't say next four years, you know,
that's a lot of intellectual thought that takes time for
people to adopt in. This is why I am so continuously
emphasizing people to get off zero even if they don't like
Bitcoin is just because I am very confident that if certain
point there's going to be a Tipping Point where the only
remaining people left are those people that just follow the herd
and that's not putting them down, that's not saying they're
all stupid or whatever else just saying that the speed is only
going to increase and the the realization once you have that.
Is that basically, it becomes obvious that were early because
the only people paying attention right now have to be early just
by Game Theory. It's like, if you have, you
know, oscillating down here and then you just have, you know,
the hyper J curve or whatever. It's like, well, of course,
literally everyone in the Bitcoin space right now, buying
Bitcoin has to be absurdly early like, just like, in particularly
early because that's the only way it could.
Because there's before-and-afters befor Mass
adoption where the people that are following her.
Kelly Art here and when they're here including the Nation States
including the Sovereign wealth funds.
And so, anyway, I think that's really important and I guess, I
guess one little fun accounting thing to one fun, numerical
trick in your mind and think about the never satoshi's and
each block and then divide it by number of humans.
It's, you know, it's it's Quaid we're still early.
This is yes and it's important to emphasize that because, you
know, people ask why you have a size, it's early.
You have to emphasize that because if You don't people will
assume, they're too early because we think in linear
terms, not exponential terms and then they'll walk away.
And it's like, people have to understand that the only people
here right now are stupidly early and at a certain point,
it's like adoption will outpace the rate of psychological change
and then it'll just be done. Yep, I love it.
And well I want to jump in here. Want to jump in here.
Tied up up T. Yeah, I think to the last Point
Luke said the like emphasizing we're so early is because what
didn't Do most people think when they're like, oh, we're early to
this, like, oh, I have time, I don't have to look into this
right now and and, you know, like what, what did we do?
Well, we probably saw the prize pot.
I got in Bitcoin, a 10K, I've been in Bitcoin if I'm going on
my 6 year, I saw jump at 10K and what did I think?
Oh my God, I am late to this. How, how can I be late to this,
this crazy phenomenon happening? And I like, basically, I have no
time. Like, I better understand this
now or else, you know, I am missing.
Missing the opportunity of a lifetime that I know all that
you know in the three seconds when I like finally made my
decision. It's like no but some
consciously we know a lot and to the point that you made before
Luke, I've been having the same conversation with with some of
my friends. It's this idea of I really don't
think that going forward. Obviously we've seen this play
out recently like the the amount of bitcoiners toxic Maxi
bitcoiners that have became Bitcoin or since 2020 on the one
hand is Kudos to all the Bitcoin, only content creators
out there. But also this idea that like
it's never been safer than today to be holding Bitcoin.
And as we move out in time, I don't think everyone's going to
have to do that. You know, hundred the ten
thousand plus hours to understand Bitcoin.
It'll just be like, a ubiquitous thing.
That's a part of society. It's like, do people have like
two children today? Young kids, do they have to
study the internet to know that they're, you know, connected to
their net. Flicks like no, they just use
the apps and and they're already on it and it kind of reminds me
of something that Beauty on. Oh, he says and I know Beauty, a
beauty on gets a lot of, a lot of a lot of hate on Twitter, but
I absolutely love the way that he thinks about it.
Not only is he a little older than us.
He's seen these types of Cycles, technology Cycles play out.
But he always talks about the idea of WhatsApp and do the
millions or billions of people that are using Whatsapp,
understand that there that all their information, all their
Communications is in, Cryptid. It's like no, they don't care.
They're just using it because it's a simple, user experience.
All their friends are on it. They downloaded, they're able to
communicate their able to do what they know they want to do
and I don't think we are necessarily there with Bitcoin
yet. But as we move further in time
we're going to get that same phenomenon happened.
People just download wallets. They understand that.
It's a normal aspect of society. They don't have to do the ten
thousand plus hours to understand Bitcoin.
It's just like, oh yeah. Bitcoin of course like yeah just
said, Me some Bitcoin. And as we move further out in
time, we're going to be the crazy ones that people like what
you spent, how long trying to understand Bitcoin, like I just
downloaded a wallet. Like, what are you talking
about? It's like, you know, I spent
years trying to understand Bitcoin and now we're getting to
this point where that not only is the information.
So good like the Bitcoin only content the the way of spreading
the message getting that much better, we are all refining on
the Bitcoin meme, so that people understand what's going on, but
the longer, it goes out, the less people have to do research
for it, to make sense. To them because it is, you know,
a ubiquitous thing with Society, you know, Tech Tick-Tock next
block like box just keep coming in.
It's like oh yeah of course. Bitcoin isn't going to die.
It's been around for 14 years and the longer we go out in
time. Everyone's going to be doing the
same thing. Like, I don't need to study
this. It's just I download a wallet
and it's better than everything else that I've ever experienced
in my life. Exactly.
It's just like, oh, scan sin, good to go.
Oh, this is better than credit cards and like, I don't think we
had that WhatsApp moment yet. R.
I know, I know we have, you know, the, the, the tools, the,
the wallets, and all the software and Hardware is
improving, but I don't think we've gotten to that, quote,
unquote killer app where everyone just downloads, they're
using whatever, they're using lightning quickly there
on-boarded in literally a minute or two without any friction.
And once we get to that point where privacy is as easy as
downloading WhatsApp, I think we're still have time where
people need to understand, people need to research And like
all of us, we all had to put in the work like we all had to put
in the hours. We all had to watch.
I don't know. Thousands of podcast and read
every article just so that we can tinker and understand like
oh this is real. Like this is something that I
can take that leap of faith on, but as we move forward in time,
I don't think people are going to have to do that.
And it's like Luke saying they're just like that one
moment where it's just like everywhere and I'm reminded of
something that we always talked about on Twitter spaces and and
shout out to my Boy Brandon, who kind of brought this up to a to
my attention and you know, even the salon guys, Cole rewrites,
the race to avoid the war and the intransigent minority.
And the idea is essentially bowling this back to another
historical moment. The founding fathers of the
United States was only 3% of the, the new American
population. And yet they give gave all of us
freedom, and it's the same idea. It's only going to take three
percent of very Ardent bitcoiners to inspire the next
fifteen. And a people and then once you
get to that 15 percent or whatever the number is, it's not
the three percent it's that 15% it just as a snap of a finger.
Everyone is on that Bitcoin standard and obviously we're not
in that Trend intransigent minority number yet.
We're not at three percent of the global population or three
percent of the American population.
But once we get to that 3%, then it's all of us being Advocates,
will inspire the next batch of bitcoiners and then once that
batch of bitcoiners is all on bitcoin.
Overnight, we have hit hyper Bitcoin ization.
So to one of the questions you asked me.
Could do we need everyone? Not yet and will we always?
Will we ever get to everyone? Who knows?
Eventually. But like the whole world is not
even on the internet. Yet you like, we still haven't
got to full saturation of the global population on the
internet. And yet, do we think that we're
not going to have a world moving forward without the internet?
Like no. That's absolutely ridiculous.
We figured out a new technology, we figured out a better way to
communicate. And you think we're just going
to let it die on us? Like, no, that's not how this
stuff works. Once you find a new technology,
you make sure that thing last and you use it to benefit your
life. And I think this is where we are
with Bitcoin. Have we gotten to these numbers
yet? No.
But as long as all of us, continue making the content
continue, trying to educate our friends and our family.
We will get to that tipping point where everyone around us
is a Bitcoin and then once we get to I think the number is
like 15 16 Sent don't hold me on these numbers but then it's
like, hyper bit, quantization happened overnight.
And again, it's just the idea of WhatsApp, it's just like, get
the tools out there. People won't have to understand,
you know, lightning liquidity coin joining and you know, all
the stuff we have to understand. All the have to know is right
down your seed. Phrase, download a wallet, send
Bitcoin. Get Bitcoin into everyone's
hand. And then overnight, it's like,
oh, yeah, of course, of course, I save in Bitcoin.
Like, what are you, what? What are you a boomer Bitcoin?
Boomer over here. Like I think we are just we
really are this early to it and we really don't understand.
Again, full circle, we don't understand exponentials and
Bitcoin is that exponential technology on all the
Technologies we have currently. And do we know how this is going
to affect society? I don't think we do.
I don't even think our most bullish takes are going to come
close to how good the future will be.
Oh man. Oh man.
Well Holy cow, I want to thank very special guests today.
Luke Broyles. Thank you so much for joining us
on simply Bitcoin IRL. Of course, you guys know Opti
Opti, thank you, thank you for doing some extra work and
joining me, and hey, now I had a blast.
I'm super glad this is where the conversation with.
Hey, this is what I like. Oh man, it's a Saturday special.
So we unleashed a little bit. We talked about topics that we
usually don't bring up just because Was another hot-button
issues and, you know, we aren't we want our messaging to be as
inclusive as possible. And you know, that's just is
what it is. These days, Luke, thank you so
much for joining us. Why do you tell everybody where
they can find you on the interwebs?
Yeah, Twitter Youtube is what I'm doing right now.
I keep getting requests for all these other social medias and
I'm trying to expand those, but yeah, YouTube and Twitter, it
was funny optimization founding fathers, I just made like a
threat A minute video about comparing Boston in the Boston
Tea Party new Bitcoins. So anyway, yeah YouTube.
Yeah, awesome. Well man, thank you so much for
joining us. Like I said, and guys will see
you on Monday for another episode of Simply Bitcoin live
truck. Excuse me, 12:15 p.m.
Eastern Standard Time. You guys later.