1 00:00:00,440 --> 00:00:02,680 Hello everybody. Welcome to another episode of 2 00:00:02,680 --> 00:00:05,600 Simply Bitcoin IRL. Today we have a very very 3 00:00:05,600 --> 00:00:09,000 special guest Samsung Mao. I have so many questions, so 4 00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:11,800 many things to ask him. But before we jump into it, I do 5 00:00:11,800 --> 00:00:14,440 want to give a shout out to the Bitcoin company that makes this 6 00:00:14,440 --> 00:00:16,280 show possible. Swan Bitcoin. 7 00:00:16,280 --> 00:00:18,120 It's the best place to build your Bitcoin stack. 8 00:00:18,120 --> 00:00:21,160 It's being built by bitcoiners. It's for bitcoiners. 9 00:00:21,160 --> 00:00:25,440 Go to swanbitcoin.com today. Start that DCA plan. 10 00:00:25,520 --> 00:00:28,120 Anyways, no more delay. I want to bring Samsung up on 11 00:00:28,120 --> 00:00:31,240 stage. Samsung, I'm just going to rip 12 00:00:31,240 --> 00:00:33,640 the Band-Aid off. Just jump straight into it. 13 00:00:33,840 --> 00:00:36,840 You are saying $1 million Bitcoin? 14 00:00:37,360 --> 00:00:39,080 What? What's the logic behind that? 15 00:00:39,080 --> 00:00:42,600 Well, like not only $1 million Bitcoin, which we all know is 16 00:00:42,600 --> 00:00:45,960 going to come eventually, but $1 million Bitcoin in a very, very 17 00:00:45,960 --> 00:00:48,360 short amount of time. Right. 18 00:00:48,360 --> 00:00:51,840 So I think the key message I'm trying to get across is that the 19 00:00:51,840 --> 00:00:54,400 macro environment has fundamentally changed. 20 00:00:55,000 --> 00:00:58,320 And then I did some analysis and other people like Macronaut and 21 00:00:58,400 --> 00:01:00,720 Bitpain and others have also done the math too. 22 00:01:01,160 --> 00:01:04,800 And Bitcoin going up 20X is not a difficult thing. 23 00:01:04,800 --> 00:01:06,480 It's done it sometimes in the past. 24 00:01:06,480 --> 00:01:10,200 So the key here is that everything is different now with 25 00:01:10,200 --> 00:01:13,480 the ETFs with the amount of money able to flow into the 26 00:01:14,120 --> 00:01:18,480 Bitcoin ecosystem and we can very rapidly go up to 1,000,000. 27 00:01:18,640 --> 00:01:21,280 Whether we stay there or not is a different question, but just 28 00:01:21,280 --> 00:01:24,400 the lack of supply because we are constrained. 29 00:01:25,040 --> 00:01:30,440 It's about 1.4, maybe 1.6 million BTC on exchanges right 30 00:01:30,440 --> 00:01:32,640 now. That's not a lot, and at some 31 00:01:32,640 --> 00:01:35,400 point it's going to dry up, especially at the rate at which 32 00:01:35,400 --> 00:01:38,360 the ETFs are hoovering up all the coins at the moment. 33 00:01:38,960 --> 00:01:42,360 Gotcha. And so I'm, I'm assuming based 34 00:01:42,360 --> 00:01:46,120 on that statement you do not believe in the diminishing 35 00:01:46,120 --> 00:01:49,040 returns theory because that is one of the narratives this 36 00:01:49,040 --> 00:01:50,400 cycle. You know, every cycle you have 37 00:01:50,400 --> 00:01:53,760 different narratives, right. One of the big narratives by the 38 00:01:53,760 --> 00:01:57,760 crowd is this idea of Bitcoin has diminishing returns. 39 00:01:57,960 --> 00:02:00,720 You know, I think a lot of people have PTSD from the last 40 00:02:00,720 --> 00:02:03,840 cycle of us not breaking 100 Ki have my theories. 41 00:02:03,840 --> 00:02:07,080 I think it was the China ban that played a huge role in that. 42 00:02:08,120 --> 00:02:11,360 So I'm assuming you don't believe in the diminishing 43 00:02:11,400 --> 00:02:13,360 returns theory. Not really. 44 00:02:13,360 --> 00:02:17,960 I mean, we talk often about hyper bitcoinization and if you 45 00:02:17,960 --> 00:02:22,000 believe in hyper bitcoinization then it's impossible to believe 46 00:02:22,000 --> 00:02:26,720 in diminishing returns because there should be no cycles to 47 00:02:26,720 --> 00:02:28,920 Bitcoin. If you're going to reach the 48 00:02:28,920 --> 00:02:32,120 point of hyper bitcoinization whereby we replace all Fiat 49 00:02:32,120 --> 00:02:34,760 money, then there is nothing to go back to. 50 00:02:34,880 --> 00:02:37,840 So what are you measuring the returns in, Right? 51 00:02:37,840 --> 00:02:41,360 If the US dollar no longer exists, then how can you have 52 00:02:41,360 --> 00:02:44,840 diminishing returns? So I guess there's two parts 53 00:02:44,840 --> 00:02:46,600 there. One is, will there be another 54 00:02:46,600 --> 00:02:49,320 cycle? And I'm not really sure. 55 00:02:49,400 --> 00:02:52,480 Like just because we had three similar looking cycles in the 56 00:02:52,480 --> 00:02:55,840 past does not mean that we're always going to have this cycle, 57 00:02:55,840 --> 00:02:57,720 right? Because it's like flipping a 58 00:02:57,720 --> 00:02:59,920 coin. You get heads three times, 59 00:03:00,120 --> 00:03:02,760 doesn't mean the next time it's more likely you're going to get 60 00:03:02,760 --> 00:03:05,800 tails. It's a different it's a 61 00:03:05,840 --> 00:03:07,400 different equation every single time. 62 00:03:07,880 --> 00:03:13,840 And the other part is, well, if Bitcoin does replace Fiat, then 63 00:03:14,400 --> 00:03:18,400 there is no diminishing returns. You're just Bitcoin now, so it's 64 00:03:18,400 --> 00:03:20,400 not really possible to measure returns. 65 00:03:21,080 --> 00:03:23,040 Gotcha, gotcha. Interesting. 66 00:03:23,120 --> 00:03:27,120 Very, very interesting. And then, so let's talk a little 67 00:03:27,120 --> 00:03:31,920 bit about the ETF you were mentioning earlier, But I, I 68 00:03:31,920 --> 00:03:35,600 want to back that up. And I just want to comment on 69 00:03:35,600 --> 00:03:41,640 the absolute disaster release, the behavior by the SEC, the 70 00:03:41,640 --> 00:03:46,360 tweet, the early tweets, and then it was deleted, and then 71 00:03:46,360 --> 00:03:50,040 the next day it was approved. And then the very vengeful, 72 00:03:50,040 --> 00:03:54,120 spiteful post by Gary Gensler, I'm sure Elizabeth Warren was 73 00:03:54,120 --> 00:03:58,120 tapping on his shoulder. So what's your take on that? 74 00:03:59,800 --> 00:04:04,920 What's your opinion? Well, I think it's highly likely 75 00:04:04,920 --> 00:04:08,520 Gary's going to lose his job, but that was probably the worst 76 00:04:08,720 --> 00:04:10,480 possible way they could have handled it. 77 00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:14,800 And even just getting to this point where they denied it for 78 00:04:15,320 --> 00:04:18,600 pretty much close to a decade is another big kerfuffle. 79 00:04:18,680 --> 00:04:24,240 So I mean if they had approved it on a reasonable timeline, 80 00:04:24,240 --> 00:04:26,640 let's say five years ago, they probably wouldn't have had that 81 00:04:26,840 --> 00:04:30,680 debacle at the launch now. But it is what it is and I'm 82 00:04:30,680 --> 00:04:31,840 just glad it's all out of the way. 83 00:04:31,840 --> 00:04:36,440 But there's probably no way it could have gone any worse than 84 00:04:36,440 --> 00:04:40,880 it went because like if you did mess up and the announcement did 85 00:04:40,880 --> 00:04:45,520 look OK, does it really matter if someone wrote it for you or 86 00:04:45,520 --> 00:04:47,400 if it was a pre drafted unapproved tweet? 87 00:04:47,400 --> 00:04:49,880 I don't know all the details but no one will. 88 00:04:49,920 --> 00:04:53,040 But it would have been better to just ride on it and say, yeah, 89 00:04:53,040 --> 00:04:55,200 it's launched now because you launched the next day and then 90 00:04:55,200 --> 00:04:57,920 you would have saved so much face and saved yourself from so 91 00:04:57,920 --> 00:05:00,800 much embarrassment just by saying, yeah, it's approved a. 92 00:05:01,560 --> 00:05:04,840 100% And I also tweeted out some type of meme. 93 00:05:05,680 --> 00:05:08,360 It wasn't really a meme, but it was just a picture of the 94 00:05:08,360 --> 00:05:12,200 Bitcoin price graph and it just a Wick up and then a Wick down. 95 00:05:12,360 --> 00:05:15,200 And then I put consumer protection brought to you by the 96 00:05:15,200 --> 00:05:18,280 SCC. So they it seems like they 97 00:05:18,280 --> 00:05:21,440 failed the job that they were supposed to do. 98 00:05:21,680 --> 00:05:24,760 And then it got worse than that Samson, because essentially if 99 00:05:24,760 --> 00:05:28,280 you look back on their tweets, it's like don't trust anything 100 00:05:28,560 --> 00:05:31,320 unless it comes from the SC, CS official handle. 101 00:05:31,720 --> 00:05:35,160 And then it said something like make sure to turn off your two 102 00:05:35,160 --> 00:05:37,400 FA. And then it was discovered by 103 00:05:37,400 --> 00:05:41,280 Twitter that they didn't have their two FA on like this super 104 00:05:41,280 --> 00:05:46,800 projection. I did a a a satire tweet and I I 105 00:05:46,800 --> 00:05:51,720 wrote you know breaking SA, CS delaying ETF approvals until Q2 106 00:05:52,000 --> 00:05:56,400 because compromise social media accounts can result in market 107 00:05:56,400 --> 00:05:58,640 manipulation and extreme volatility. 108 00:05:59,160 --> 00:06:02,320 And a lot of people ping me after that in DM saying you 109 00:06:02,320 --> 00:06:04,000 should delete that because it's too real. 110 00:06:04,080 --> 00:06:08,440 So I did delete it and then whatever like some some other 111 00:06:08,440 --> 00:06:11,040 guys posted it, but it it's pretty funny like they could 112 00:06:11,040 --> 00:06:14,520 have done that and said yeah, well it's a it's a risk so we 113 00:06:14,520 --> 00:06:18,160 can't approve it yet. Do you think that's like a like 114 00:06:18,160 --> 00:06:25,160 a representation and of of like the how do I say this nicely, I 115 00:06:25,160 --> 00:06:26,440 don't think you can say it nicely. 116 00:06:26,440 --> 00:06:28,960 Do do you think it's a representation of, like the 117 00:06:29,120 --> 00:06:35,080 inefficiencies of of this very, very bloated government that's 118 00:06:35,080 --> 00:06:38,560 been funded by this money printer for all these decades 119 00:06:38,560 --> 00:06:41,520 and decades and decades? the US government's like one of 120 00:06:41,520 --> 00:06:44,400 the biggest employers in the world, you know, at this point. 121 00:06:44,680 --> 00:06:47,760 So do you think that's a representation of that, Like if 122 00:06:47,760 --> 00:06:51,720 that's happening on the top echelon, the top levels, I can't 123 00:06:51,720 --> 00:06:55,360 even imagine what's happening, you know, on the lower levels of 124 00:06:55,360 --> 00:06:59,840 that. Well, it comes down to what can 125 00:06:59,840 --> 00:07:02,200 the government actually do? Can the government and these 126 00:07:02,200 --> 00:07:04,080 agencies actually protect anybody? 127 00:07:04,640 --> 00:07:06,600 And the answer is probably not right. 128 00:07:06,600 --> 00:07:10,640 They're able to retroactively implement some policy, right, 129 00:07:10,640 --> 00:07:13,640 like take your shoes off when you go through the scanner at 130 00:07:13,640 --> 00:07:17,000 the airport and all that stuff. But they can't preemptively do 131 00:07:17,000 --> 00:07:21,360 anything to protect people. And it really shows the the 132 00:07:21,360 --> 00:07:25,840 inability, really shows in the fact that we have what, 19,000 133 00:07:25,840 --> 00:07:28,240 or 20,000 altcoins on the market now. 134 00:07:28,280 --> 00:07:32,720 And you know, the the they never did go after Ethereum when they 135 00:07:32,720 --> 00:07:36,240 did their ICO because they weren't equipped, educated or 136 00:07:36,240 --> 00:07:40,000 ready to do so at the time. And they're still not doing 137 00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:42,320 anything. So the proliferation of all this 138 00:07:42,320 --> 00:07:45,840 stuff that harms people, that actually does harm people is not 139 00:07:45,840 --> 00:07:47,200 something they can do anything about. 140 00:07:47,200 --> 00:07:50,520 They're just not able to. So I think you're you're right 141 00:07:50,520 --> 00:07:54,760 that these things, these agencies and institutions are 142 00:07:54,760 --> 00:07:56,560 not very effective at what they're supposed to be doing. 143 00:07:57,360 --> 00:08:02,640 100% And do you think that the altcoins are here to stay, 144 00:08:02,640 --> 00:08:05,480 'cause that's another thing where some of the, you know, 145 00:08:05,480 --> 00:08:08,480 some of the charges, whether it was on Kraken or Coinbase. 146 00:08:08,800 --> 00:08:13,120 The SEC did mention that you know some of these altcoins are, 147 00:08:13,120 --> 00:08:15,040 you know, they they see them as security. 148 00:08:15,200 --> 00:08:17,680 Of course, for some reason they left the theory amount, but 149 00:08:17,680 --> 00:08:19,440 perhaps they donated too much money. 150 00:08:19,720 --> 00:08:23,360 But, you know, very popular ones like Cardano and I can't even 151 00:08:24,840 --> 00:08:27,080 the whole shit coin laundry, to put it nicely. 152 00:08:27,960 --> 00:08:32,520 So do you like, do you see the do you foresee that as an issue, 153 00:08:32,520 --> 00:08:36,000 right, that these all coins are really not just gonna go away in 154 00:08:36,000 --> 00:08:39,520 the United States? It's hard to say. 155 00:08:39,520 --> 00:08:43,440 I mean, the problem is it's a losing battle. 156 00:08:43,440 --> 00:08:47,440 Like they'd have to hire a lot of people to go after all these 157 00:08:47,440 --> 00:08:51,360 projects, right? And I think that is the, the 158 00:08:51,360 --> 00:08:54,080 main deterrent to them taking any significant action because 159 00:08:54,080 --> 00:08:55,840 SEC doesn't want to lose in court. 160 00:08:56,360 --> 00:09:01,720 And sadly they pursue things like blocking ETFs and they go 161 00:09:01,720 --> 00:09:03,040 to court for that and they lose for that. 162 00:09:03,040 --> 00:09:05,680 And I think that takes some wind out of their sails to actually 163 00:09:05,680 --> 00:09:09,560 go after the actual nefarious stuff and stuff that could 164 00:09:09,560 --> 00:09:13,360 actually make a difference. So it's hard to say, but I mean 165 00:09:14,320 --> 00:09:16,560 it, it's the, the biggest problem I think is uneven 166 00:09:16,560 --> 00:09:19,240 enforcement, right. You have some enforcement, some 167 00:09:19,240 --> 00:09:22,000 selective enforcement on things that they think that they can 168 00:09:22,080 --> 00:09:26,600 get a easy win under their belt for like like I don't know 169 00:09:26,600 --> 00:09:29,200 something more innocuous like library right there. 170 00:09:29,200 --> 00:09:31,720 It's like a content platform token or whatever. 171 00:09:31,960 --> 00:09:35,560 But then they don't go after the really big stuff and that is the 172 00:09:35,720 --> 00:09:39,400 the biggest impact and harm that can be caused to investors. 173 00:09:39,400 --> 00:09:42,040 So we'll see. I mean, when Gary's gone and 174 00:09:42,040 --> 00:09:44,680 someone replaces him, we'll see what happens, but it's hard to 175 00:09:44,680 --> 00:09:48,320 say that if they will actually do anything meaningful ever. 176 00:09:49,160 --> 00:09:51,000 Yeah. And that was a really good point 177 00:09:51,000 --> 00:09:53,600 that you brought up, which is the amount of resources and it 178 00:09:53,600 --> 00:09:57,320 was actually has to your peers. Also SEC Commissioner, she said 179 00:09:57,360 --> 00:10:01,160 She's like the millions of dollars that was spent trying to 180 00:10:01,160 --> 00:10:05,920 delay this for political reason reasons rather than trying to, 181 00:10:06,360 --> 00:10:08,480 you know, actually focus on other things. 182 00:10:08,480 --> 00:10:11,840 So that was a really good point. Now I want to get your take on 183 00:10:11,840 --> 00:10:14,760 this, Samson. So obviously, the regulatory 184 00:10:14,760 --> 00:10:18,760 environment in the US has been interesting to say the least the 185 00:10:18,760 --> 00:10:21,080 last two years, right? We know the current 186 00:10:21,080 --> 00:10:24,880 administration, you know, is not a big fan of the industry. 187 00:10:25,120 --> 00:10:27,960 And then it was actually yesterday, which I think it was 188 00:10:28,160 --> 00:10:30,320 a pretty historical moment in my opinion. 189 00:10:30,680 --> 00:10:33,680 Not only did you have Javier Malay dropping, I don't know why 190 00:10:33,680 --> 00:10:37,280 they allowed him to have that speech, right, dropping bombs at 191 00:10:37,280 --> 00:10:40,200 the Contilion Air conference, AKA the World Economic Forum. 192 00:10:40,720 --> 00:10:45,720 And you had Donald Trump, out of all people, not quite Bitcoin 193 00:10:45,720 --> 00:10:50,160 friendly, but advocating against central bank digital currencies, 194 00:10:50,160 --> 00:10:52,840 which the current administration is actually a big fan of. 195 00:10:53,440 --> 00:10:56,960 So clearly in terms of the Overton window, it is shifting, 196 00:10:57,360 --> 00:10:59,600 right, which is a really good thing for bitcoiners. 197 00:10:59,960 --> 00:11:02,240 What's your take on the current regulatory environment? 198 00:11:02,240 --> 00:11:06,960 Does it concern you, you know the the not to mention Elizabeth 199 00:11:06,960 --> 00:11:12,200 Warren's bill just currently 20 senators signed up for 20% of 200 00:11:12,200 --> 00:11:16,200 the US Senate and a couple Republicans in there as well. 201 00:11:16,800 --> 00:11:19,600 So what's your take on that? Is that just a temporary thing? 202 00:11:19,600 --> 00:11:22,000 Do you think we're just in the beginning of the then they fight 203 00:11:22,000 --> 00:11:25,920 you stage? I mean, they've been fighting us 204 00:11:26,160 --> 00:11:29,040 for some time. But yeah, it's interesting 205 00:11:29,040 --> 00:11:30,640 dynamic that's come to play here. 206 00:11:30,640 --> 00:11:32,440 And I was going to tweet about it yesterday when I ran out of 207 00:11:32,440 --> 00:11:34,360 time. But I think Donald Trump 208 00:11:34,360 --> 00:11:37,680 tweeting about his stance or not talking about his stance about 209 00:11:38,200 --> 00:11:40,880 being against CBD CS is actually massive. 210 00:11:40,880 --> 00:11:43,320 And like you said, it is a big shifter of of the Overton 211 00:11:43,320 --> 00:11:45,720 Window. Whereas most politicians and 212 00:11:45,720 --> 00:11:48,160 governments were like, hey, this is innovative and it's to help 213 00:11:48,160 --> 00:11:50,080 you now. It's like this is bad. 214 00:11:50,080 --> 00:11:51,720 It's it's been happening for some time. 215 00:11:51,720 --> 00:11:56,160 I think DeSantis was talking about CBDCS and talking about 216 00:11:56,160 --> 00:12:01,080 them in the right light too and then I think Bobby Robert 217 00:12:01,160 --> 00:12:03,600 Kennedy is also talking about it there. 218 00:12:03,920 --> 00:12:08,960 There is this percolation of sentiment against CBDCS. 219 00:12:09,320 --> 00:12:13,400 But Trump blasting out there is is very significant because you 220 00:12:13,400 --> 00:12:16,600 know he's definitely a he's the Republican candidate probably 221 00:12:16,600 --> 00:12:18,400 now. So I think it has a lot of 222 00:12:18,400 --> 00:12:24,760 weight and in terms of all the other anti Bitcoin sentiment, I 223 00:12:24,760 --> 00:12:28,080 don't really think it matters. I think what we should fight for 224 00:12:28,080 --> 00:12:33,880 is to prevent CBDCS because if we can stop that from coming out 225 00:12:33,880 --> 00:12:38,840 and really anchor that Overton window shift to be anti CBDC, 226 00:12:39,560 --> 00:12:41,800 Bitcoin will win. We just have to give Bitcoin 227 00:12:41,800 --> 00:12:45,240 that chance to keep going and it's a finished battle. 228 00:12:45,240 --> 00:12:48,560 It's a done deal. So I don't think it matters if 229 00:12:48,800 --> 00:12:51,880 Trump is pro Bitcoin or not as long as he's anti CBDC because 230 00:12:51,880 --> 00:12:53,440 the market forces always will win. 231 00:12:54,080 --> 00:12:57,040 So I think it's a good thing that more and more politicians 232 00:12:57,440 --> 00:13:01,440 are taking these more pragmatic stances rather than the more 233 00:13:03,480 --> 00:13:06,120 pleasant sound bite, virtue signaling path that you 234 00:13:06,240 --> 00:13:07,920 typically see coming out of Davos. 235 00:13:07,920 --> 00:13:12,120 And this is, I think, why Malay dropping that bomb of a speech 236 00:13:12,120 --> 00:13:15,520 was significant because one, it's at Davos. 237 00:13:15,720 --> 00:13:21,120 And two, it shows how much interest there is in this topic 238 00:13:21,640 --> 00:13:26,720 and manifesto of freedom that is being spread versus the 239 00:13:26,720 --> 00:13:29,240 traditional stuff that comes out of Davos usually. 240 00:13:29,240 --> 00:13:30,680 And you see that in the view counts, right? 241 00:13:30,680 --> 00:13:32,520 I think he's at millions of views now. 242 00:13:32,520 --> 00:13:36,240 And the next best one is 30,000 views or something like that. 243 00:13:36,280 --> 00:13:41,320 So it shows that the people want a certain topic to be discussed. 244 00:13:41,320 --> 00:13:44,320 They don't want you to plan the next World government and 245 00:13:44,640 --> 00:13:49,000 telling you to eat the bugs. Yeah, and and the the thing that 246 00:13:49,000 --> 00:13:52,880 I find hilarious, which is, you know, you have his video just 247 00:13:52,880 --> 00:13:55,440 went viral, right? Everyone's else is just they're 248 00:13:55,440 --> 00:13:59,000 not doing so well. But also the virtue signalling 249 00:13:59,000 --> 00:14:02,640 of, yeah, the environment. Everyone else is flying private 250 00:14:02,640 --> 00:14:04,720 on their G6. There's nothing wrong with that 251 00:14:04,720 --> 00:14:06,080 if you could afford a private plane. 252 00:14:06,440 --> 00:14:10,160 But Javier Malay like a boss travels commercial I think on 253 00:14:10,160 --> 00:14:14,960 Lufonsa, you know and then he goes in there saying freedom, 254 00:14:14,960 --> 00:14:17,400 you know individualism versus collectivism. 255 00:14:18,200 --> 00:14:20,800 So yeah, I I think it was it was definitely a big shift. 256 00:14:20,800 --> 00:14:26,400 So pivoting back to the spot Bitcoin ETF, Samson one of had a 257 00:14:26,400 --> 00:14:30,960 very interesting discussion with with Kaitlyn Long and Lawrence 258 00:14:30,960 --> 00:14:34,400 Lapard and then with Greg Foss and James Lavish and they're 259 00:14:34,400 --> 00:14:37,840 they're on their other camp but essentially Caitlin Law brought 260 00:14:37,840 --> 00:14:43,160 up the point of the dangers of rehypothecation with a spot 261 00:14:43,160 --> 00:14:45,840 Bitcoin ETF. So what are your thoughts on 262 00:14:45,840 --> 00:14:49,480 that? I mean there's always a risk of 263 00:14:49,560 --> 00:14:53,040 rehypothecation and I don't think Bitcoin is immune to it 264 00:14:53,200 --> 00:14:56,560 just because people always, some people will always seek out the 265 00:14:56,560 --> 00:15:00,200 most convenient form of holding Bitcoin and for the majority of 266 00:15:00,200 --> 00:15:03,360 people it is with an ETF or with a custodian. 267 00:15:03,760 --> 00:15:07,800 So there is always at risk. But the benefit and the 268 00:15:07,960 --> 00:15:11,560 advantage that Bitcoin has is self custody is actually quite 269 00:15:11,560 --> 00:15:14,640 easy, right? If you can write down 12 words 270 00:15:14,640 --> 00:15:17,640 you can self custody and if you can drive a car, I think you can 271 00:15:17,640 --> 00:15:20,720 write down 12 words. So it's just about getting more 272 00:15:20,720 --> 00:15:24,280 people into Bitcoin. And I view the ETFs as a way to 273 00:15:24,560 --> 00:15:27,160 orange kill more people, just like I view nation state Bitcoin 274 00:15:27,160 --> 00:15:29,520 adoption as a way to get more people into Bitcoin. 275 00:15:31,040 --> 00:15:35,200 Yes, the ETFs are not the ideal format for us hardcore 276 00:15:35,200 --> 00:15:38,000 bitcoiners that are all about self self custody. 277 00:15:38,480 --> 00:15:41,560 And yes, it's not ideal that countries accumulate out of 278 00:15:41,560 --> 00:15:42,800 Bitcoin. It's better the people 279 00:15:42,800 --> 00:15:46,640 accumulate a lot of Bitcoin, but it's also a way to reach more 280 00:15:46,640 --> 00:15:48,000 people. So I think you have to take the 281 00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:51,960 good with the bad and eventually people will learn to self 282 00:15:51,960 --> 00:15:55,360 custody simply because you have to pay a lot of fees, right? 283 00:15:55,680 --> 00:15:59,200 Even with the low fees the ETFs are charging, it's still 284 00:15:59,200 --> 00:16:02,360 significant and you when you compound that over a number of 285 00:16:02,360 --> 00:16:06,000 years. 100%. And Speaking of self custody, 286 00:16:06,000 --> 00:16:07,120 I'm. I'm really glad that you brought 287 00:16:07,120 --> 00:16:09,680 that up. You just announced your new 288 00:16:09,680 --> 00:16:13,320 project, the Aqua Wallet. I'm gonna pull it up right? 289 00:16:13,560 --> 00:16:17,320 So Samson, what is this? Why don't you give us a quick if 290 00:16:17,320 --> 00:16:19,320 you can? If you if you can, that would be 291 00:16:19,320 --> 00:16:21,480 really appreciated. Quick elevator pitch. 292 00:16:21,720 --> 00:16:23,680 What is the Aqua wallet first of all? 293 00:16:23,680 --> 00:16:25,480 The website's awesome, by the way. 294 00:16:26,200 --> 00:16:31,280 So what is this? So Aqua is a Bitcoin wallet that 295 00:16:31,280 --> 00:16:34,920 supports layer 2:00. We we have the liquid network 296 00:16:34,920 --> 00:16:37,880 integrated as well as the lightning network and we also 297 00:16:37,880 --> 00:16:41,960 have stable coins like USDT. And I think the differentiating 298 00:16:41,960 --> 00:16:45,000 factor here is we are one of the first wallets out there that 299 00:16:45,000 --> 00:16:49,080 actually delivers a seamless experience between all these 300 00:16:49,080 --> 00:16:51,320 different Bitcoin layers and assets. 301 00:16:51,320 --> 00:16:55,280 So your typical Bitcoin wallet might just store Bitcoin and 302 00:16:55,280 --> 00:16:59,360 then you might have a way to access some dollar derivative, 303 00:16:59,520 --> 00:17:04,640 but it's not Tether, right? And Tether is used mostly 304 00:17:04,640 --> 00:17:08,359 throughout the global S like in Latin America, they just call 305 00:17:08,359 --> 00:17:10,160 Tether digital dollars. They don't call it tether. 306 00:17:10,480 --> 00:17:11,960 So that's the level of dominance that it has. 307 00:17:11,960 --> 00:17:16,200 And I think most wallets don't appreciate that or understand 308 00:17:16,200 --> 00:17:18,000 that and that's why they're not supporting it. 309 00:17:18,400 --> 00:17:23,160 And we end up losing a lot of transaction volume and AUM of 310 00:17:23,160 --> 00:17:26,560 tether to the altcoin chains. And the goal is that we can 311 00:17:26,560 --> 00:17:29,520 bring that back to Bitcoin because, well, when you're 312 00:17:29,520 --> 00:17:32,720 storing USDT on on your Aqua wallet, it's on the liquid chain 313 00:17:33,200 --> 00:17:36,320 and there's no need to buy Tron or Ethereum or any altcoin to 314 00:17:36,640 --> 00:17:39,000 send that around. And in fact, we have a feature 315 00:17:39,000 --> 00:17:43,120 coming out soon which will let you pay for USDUSDT transactions 316 00:17:43,400 --> 00:17:47,120 with USDT. So you don't even need Liquid 317 00:17:47,120 --> 00:17:50,120 Bitcoin to send it. And I think this is a way for us 318 00:17:50,120 --> 00:17:53,040 to get more people in Latin America into the Bitcoin 319 00:17:53,040 --> 00:17:57,200 ecosystem, because a lot of them are looking for digital dollars 320 00:17:57,640 --> 00:18:00,800 and they may not be using Bitcoin, but I mean, it's just a 321 00:18:00,800 --> 00:18:03,040 short hop and a jump to get to Bitcoin. 322 00:18:03,400 --> 00:18:07,240 And Aqua features Bitcoin very prominently as a savings account 323 00:18:07,320 --> 00:18:10,280 and a spending account. So that's the idea really to 324 00:18:10,280 --> 00:18:13,040 drive a lot of people into the Bitcoin ecosystem. 325 00:18:13,840 --> 00:18:17,880 But yeah, we we support right now Liquid and Lightning. 326 00:18:18,920 --> 00:18:22,480 Lightning is mainly a rail, so you can send and receive on 327 00:18:22,480 --> 00:18:26,000 Lightning we do submarine swaps with bolts, so it's trustless 328 00:18:26,560 --> 00:18:29,680 and then your funds are stored in liquid Bitcoin, so you don't 329 00:18:29,680 --> 00:18:31,920 have to deal with any channel management and things like that. 330 00:18:31,920 --> 00:18:35,280 So it's it's a pretty good set of trade-offs I think, to 331 00:18:35,280 --> 00:18:39,240 deliver accessible layer two Bitcoin to the average user. 332 00:18:39,440 --> 00:18:42,200 Yeah. And and I love the the tether 333 00:18:42,200 --> 00:18:47,920 integration aspect of it because so my cousin launched a exchange 334 00:18:47,920 --> 00:18:52,400 in Central and South America and currently in in Columbia he's 335 00:18:52,400 --> 00:18:55,640 he's doing volume and and I was like hey, So what what are you 336 00:18:55,640 --> 00:18:57,280 selling? Like you know, people buying 337 00:18:57,280 --> 00:19:01,200 altcoins or people buying bitcoins like Nico, 99% of my 338 00:19:01,200 --> 00:19:04,680 business is OTC tether transactions, right. 339 00:19:04,680 --> 00:19:09,720 And I think that they have like one of the only approvals from 340 00:19:09,720 --> 00:19:13,360 the central bank in Columbia and this is telling me it's like 341 00:19:13,440 --> 00:19:16,080 it's tether. Tether people just want that, 342 00:19:16,200 --> 00:19:19,160 you know that stability versus their local currency. 343 00:19:19,400 --> 00:19:22,080 So the fact that I think you have that tether integration 344 00:19:22,280 --> 00:19:24,880 then not to mention the fact that I think tether on certain 345 00:19:24,880 --> 00:19:27,080 chains is actually extremely expensive. 346 00:19:27,080 --> 00:19:30,760 So that this wallet fixes that, I'm assuming. 347 00:19:32,200 --> 00:19:35,760 Yeah, Liquid tether transactions are about $0.10 right now, 348 00:19:35,920 --> 00:19:39,040 something like that right now. And we have some plans in the 349 00:19:39,040 --> 00:19:41,240 works to decrease it by a factor of 10. 350 00:19:41,240 --> 00:19:45,160 So it should be about 1 cent. Most Tron wallets charge a 351 00:19:45,160 --> 00:19:49,960 dollar for tether on Tron and Ethereum can go up to, you know, 352 00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:54,240 $13 to $20 depending on the state of the chain. 353 00:19:54,520 --> 00:19:56,120 So I think there's a big advantage here. 354 00:19:56,120 --> 00:19:59,560 And plus you have confidential transactions in liquid, so it's 355 00:19:59,920 --> 00:20:03,040 faster, cheaper and confidential. 356 00:20:03,040 --> 00:20:05,480 And I think people will learn to appreciate that over time. 357 00:20:05,480 --> 00:20:08,200 So. We just have to start to pushing 358 00:20:08,200 --> 00:20:12,120 it And the beautiful thing is we because we have this wallet out 359 00:20:12,120 --> 00:20:15,440 now, we can start to engage with local Fiat on and off ramps and 360 00:20:15,440 --> 00:20:19,360 maybe the OTC desks like that one they mentioned from from a 361 00:20:19,360 --> 00:20:22,240 friend there and tell them to support liquid tether because 362 00:20:22,400 --> 00:20:25,400 previously there's not really a good option to use the quid 363 00:20:25,400 --> 00:20:28,520 tether. And the another thing, Samson 364 00:20:28,520 --> 00:20:32,640 that I wanted to ask you, which is the obviously the regulatory 365 00:20:32,640 --> 00:20:34,760 environment for Tether itself, right. 366 00:20:34,760 --> 00:20:39,480 So you know, like DOJ has been on a warpath, right? 367 00:20:39,480 --> 00:20:42,040 You know they they they took down, they essentially they 368 00:20:42,040 --> 00:20:45,200 didn't, they didn't take down Binance, they Co opted Binance, 369 00:20:45,600 --> 00:20:48,560 right. So does that worry you at all 370 00:20:48,560 --> 00:20:51,160 because I know if you're a bitcoiner, you know that Tether 371 00:20:51,160 --> 00:20:53,800 plays a big role in the Bitcoin ecosystem. 372 00:20:54,760 --> 00:20:58,560 Does that worry you at all in terms of potential regulatory 373 00:20:58,560 --> 00:21:02,640 hostility coming from the Department of Treasury, the DOJ? 374 00:21:04,760 --> 00:21:08,040 Not really. I mean the all of the that stuff 375 00:21:08,040 --> 00:21:12,280 has been settled a long time ago and Tether doesn't operate in 376 00:21:12,280 --> 00:21:16,440 the US and their main focus is really the the global South and 377 00:21:16,440 --> 00:21:20,440 developing markets. So I don't really think it it in 378 00:21:20,440 --> 00:21:24,800 it offends them in any way. I mean the maybe they could, but 379 00:21:24,800 --> 00:21:27,440 then you're getting into very challenging territory like what 380 00:21:27,440 --> 00:21:31,240 could they actually do to tether because another country can use 381 00:21:31,240 --> 00:21:35,320 the dollar, Why can't you know a company that's serving global S 382 00:21:35,320 --> 00:21:38,040 use the dollar as well. So the question is really what 383 00:21:38,040 --> 00:21:40,640 happens to it. Maybe they could pass some very 384 00:21:40,640 --> 00:21:44,680 specific stable coin regulation, but that would also kill the the 385 00:21:44,720 --> 00:21:47,200 US based stable coins as well. So I I just don't see anything 386 00:21:47,200 --> 00:21:52,000 happening there in terms of like existential risk. 387 00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:56,920 I really don't see anything because the tether is the one of 388 00:21:56,920 --> 00:21:59,360 the largest holders of U.S. Treasuries right now. 389 00:21:59,360 --> 00:22:03,400 I think they're up there with countries like Mexico and others 390 00:22:03,720 --> 00:22:08,640 in the top 20 or top 25 of UST holders. 391 00:22:09,960 --> 00:22:13,360 So I mean, you could do that, but it wouldn't be you could you 392 00:22:13,360 --> 00:22:16,120 could go after it and shut it all down, but it wouldn't be the 393 00:22:16,120 --> 00:22:19,680 smartest thing to do, especially when the demand for treasuries 394 00:22:19,680 --> 00:22:23,200 is dropping. So it's well, I don't put it 395 00:22:23,200 --> 00:22:26,320 past any government in administration to do that, but 396 00:22:26,320 --> 00:22:28,800 it doesn't make sense if you're thinking about things 397 00:22:29,280 --> 00:22:32,560 rationally. And also recently in Davos, the 398 00:22:32,560 --> 00:22:37,400 CEO of Cantor Fitzgerald was on, I think Bloomberg and I don't 399 00:22:37,720 --> 00:22:41,680 know CNBC one of those, but he was saying Tether they have the 400 00:22:41,680 --> 00:22:46,040 money, we've seen it, we manage their assets and that sort of 401 00:22:46,040 --> 00:22:49,920 destroys all Tether Fudd, right. You have one of the largest 402 00:22:50,120 --> 00:22:55,760 prime dealers in the US, one of 24, one of the largest capital 403 00:22:55,760 --> 00:23:01,280 equities companies on the planet saying we manage their assets 404 00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:04,480 and we've seen that they have the assets. 405 00:23:04,880 --> 00:23:08,440 That's a very powerful thing and it essentially destroys all of 406 00:23:08,440 --> 00:23:12,880 the FUD and all the narratives that have been swirling around 407 00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:15,520 Tether for the last decade almost. 408 00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:19,400 And it's also funny because Tether has always been a target 409 00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:22,160 of the mainstream media Financial Times. 410 00:23:23,560 --> 00:23:26,880 You know every single mainstream media rag has targeted them at 411 00:23:26,880 --> 00:23:30,360 some point, but they could have just picked any other project 412 00:23:30,680 --> 00:23:34,320 like I don't know, Celsius Block 5 FTX and they would have been 413 00:23:34,320 --> 00:23:36,280 right. But they picked the stable coin 414 00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:41,040 to go after the one that has attestations from a top five 415 00:23:41,040 --> 00:23:43,160 accounting firm saying they have assets. 416 00:23:43,160 --> 00:23:45,080 So none of this really makes sense. 417 00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:48,480 I think it's people just trying to instil fear in the market, 418 00:23:48,480 --> 00:23:53,320 but tether's a solid product and they have 60,000 something BTC 419 00:23:53,320 --> 00:23:57,240 in their reserves right now. They recently just bought 8888 420 00:23:57,240 --> 00:24:01,680 more coins and you know, as the value of Bitcoin goes up, 421 00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:05,720 there's going to be a point at which their reserves are double 422 00:24:06,040 --> 00:24:07,880 their liabilities. So right now I think they're at 423 00:24:07,880 --> 00:24:14,040 95 billion USDT in AUM at probably 1.4. 424 00:24:14,120 --> 00:24:16,480 Assuming they keep the same amount of Bitcoin at $1.4 425 00:24:16,480 --> 00:24:20,160 million per Bitcoin, they'll have double. 426 00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:21,760 Their liabilities? Gotcha. 427 00:24:21,800 --> 00:24:22,480 Gotcha. No. 428 00:24:22,480 --> 00:24:27,600 And if my research serves me correctly, I believe they have a 429 00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:30,680 direct account with the Fed. Like Tether has an account with 430 00:24:30,680 --> 00:24:31,600 the Fed as well. I don't. 431 00:24:33,480 --> 00:24:36,560 Know maybe. Yeah, so interesting, 432 00:24:36,640 --> 00:24:39,120 Interesting. So Samson, so obviously as 433 00:24:39,120 --> 00:24:41,920 bitcoiners we want hyper bitcoinization. 434 00:24:41,920 --> 00:24:44,080 We want the world to run on a Bitcoin standard. 435 00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:50,640 Do you see tether as a stepping stone towards that What do you 436 00:24:50,640 --> 00:24:53,480 see? How do you see tethers role in 437 00:24:53,480 --> 00:24:57,600 the Cuz right now how it you do a little bit of research it does 438 00:24:57,600 --> 00:25:00,960 play a very important role and. Yeah. 439 00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:04,480 So what is it? A step towards hyper 440 00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:08,720 bitcoinization. Yeah, so in 2018 at some 441 00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:11,320 conference, I think I was on stage and I said tether. 442 00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:14,720 It was a panel of stable coins. I remember a few other stable 443 00:25:14,720 --> 00:25:17,160 coin people there. I'm not sure why I was on that 444 00:25:17,160 --> 00:25:18,440 panel, but they put me on the panel. 445 00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:21,840 But I was talking about tether and I said Tether is a mid step 446 00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:25,320 towards hyper bitcoinization. It's a way for people to get 447 00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:31,680 into this ecosystem and then move on to Bitcoin, because not 448 00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:35,600 everyone has a bank account. Tether serves as the last mile 449 00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:38,880 for banking for much of the world like the We have the 450 00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:41,960 situation of people that are unbanked, and yes, we can bank 451 00:25:41,960 --> 00:25:45,200 them with Bitcoin, but you can also bank them with tether on on 452 00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:47,320 liquid or other chains if you must. 453 00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:50,760 But the fact is you can get people access to the financial 454 00:25:50,760 --> 00:25:56,160 system through this mechanism, and it's not rational to think 455 00:25:56,160 --> 00:25:58,280 everyone's going to suddenly jump into Bitcoin. 456 00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:02,080 That's more of a a Western perspective, like people that 457 00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:05,200 think that probably have a bank account and they can make SEPA 458 00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:09,440 transfers or interact or ACH or whatever. 459 00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:11,920 But you have to remember there are billions of people in the 460 00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:16,280 world that can't do any of that and they do want digital 461 00:26:16,280 --> 00:26:18,400 dollars. And This is why Tether is so 462 00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:21,960 dominant in the global S because they're they're looking for 463 00:26:21,960 --> 00:26:24,760 something to protect themselves from inflation and 464 00:26:24,760 --> 00:26:28,440 hyperinflation. But Bitcoin seems far off for 465 00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:31,280 them. But a dollar is something that 466 00:26:31,280 --> 00:26:33,120 they're familiar with. Like most people know what a 467 00:26:33,120 --> 00:26:35,440 dollar is, that's why it's the reserve currency. 468 00:26:35,840 --> 00:26:39,200 And tether gives them access to that reserve currency. 469 00:26:39,600 --> 00:26:43,120 So I think you need to be willing to accept that tether is 470 00:26:43,120 --> 00:26:45,520 an important part to get to hyper bitcoinization. 471 00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:47,640 And I've talked to Paulo before too. 472 00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:51,200 He doesn't believe that you know tether than a stablecoin. 473 00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:53,920 They do a lot more now. They have energy and mining and 474 00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:56,320 a lot of other things. But he doesn't think the 475 00:26:56,320 --> 00:26:58,960 stablecoin will exist forever because the dollar won't exist 476 00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:00,800 forever too. So I think we're more or less 477 00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:04,440 all in the same wavelength that stablecoins are a mid step to 478 00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:06,320 getting towards. Hypercontension Gotcha. 479 00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:07,920 Yeah. And I agree with that. 480 00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:11,000 And you know, that's what's really interesting about, you 481 00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:14,360 know, the Aqua wallet is that it has tether there. 482 00:27:14,360 --> 00:27:17,360 And Samson, if people were interested in downloading this, 483 00:27:17,360 --> 00:27:21,800 where could they find it? Yeah, you can get it on the iOS 484 00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:25,720 App Store and on Google Play and just search for Aqua Wallet. 485 00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:29,640 The safest way is probably to go to our website aquawallet dot IO 486 00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:34,440 and find the links there in case the App Store has put up a fake 487 00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:36,880 one which is getting more and more common these. 488 00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:39,800 Days Abdi, could you pull up the link while Samsung and I keep 489 00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:41,680 talking? And another thing Samsung I 490 00:27:41,680 --> 00:27:45,600 wanna talk to you about is January 3rd right? 491 00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:50,040 So Jan 3rd specifically, so obviously the mission and you 492 00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:53,000 left, you left Blockstream which is amazing company and you 493 00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:56,160 dedicated your life which I think is absolutely badass I 494 00:27:56,160 --> 00:28:00,320 might add to nation state adoption of Bitcoin. 495 00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:04,680 We've seen some amazing recent developments out of Honduras. 496 00:28:05,440 --> 00:28:08,000 What do you know about that and what can we expect from the 497 00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:11,360 region? In in Honduras. 498 00:28:11,720 --> 00:28:14,200 Yes, like what? Can you what what is the, what 499 00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:17,360 is the current state of Bitcoin? Nation state adoption. 500 00:28:17,360 --> 00:28:19,000 I'll put it like that. I'll say it like that. 501 00:28:19,760 --> 00:28:23,200 OK. So we are engaged in a number of 502 00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:27,520 countries and the level of this discussions varies from place to 503 00:28:27,520 --> 00:28:30,040 place. But last year we went to 504 00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:33,680 Montenegro, met with the Prime Minister there, We were in 505 00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:35,320 Colombia, I met with President there. 506 00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:38,040 We were in Suriname, met with President there, and the Central 507 00:28:38,040 --> 00:28:40,880 Bank, also in Columbia. We met with the largest bank 508 00:28:40,880 --> 00:28:43,960 too. But I think the important thing 509 00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:47,600 about Gentry's mission of accelerating Bitcoin adoption 510 00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:50,520 and in working with governments and politicians and regulators 511 00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:54,360 is that we can get the message out there about Bitcoin and we 512 00:28:54,360 --> 00:28:56,520 can educate them about what Bitcoin is. 513 00:28:56,560 --> 00:29:01,240 And then we can also talk about why CBD, CS are bad and other 514 00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:04,800 topics too. So I think it's a useful tool to 515 00:29:05,480 --> 00:29:08,680 educate a lot of the world. And if we can get countries to 516 00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:13,800 adopt Bitcoin, then like we talked about before, we can have 517 00:29:13,920 --> 00:29:15,640 more people learning about Bitcoin. 518 00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:18,160 Just like in El Salvador when the government implemented their 519 00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:20,360 Bitcoin law and their digital securities law. 520 00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:24,120 Well, that on boards a lot of people into Bitcoin that 521 00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:28,080 otherwise would not have bothered or even cared to. 522 00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:33,400 So the implication really is we have countries that adopt 523 00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:39,000 Bitcoin but at a lower level. A really good outcome is that 524 00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:43,800 they don't have bad legislation like banning self custody or 525 00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:45,840 self hosted wallets or things like that. 526 00:29:46,160 --> 00:29:50,360 So I think the work that we are doing is quite important in the 527 00:29:50,360 --> 00:29:53,640 path to hyper bitcoinization. And so, and that started off 528 00:29:53,640 --> 00:29:56,920 very strong, right? So you had the the monumental 529 00:29:56,920 --> 00:29:58,560 and I remember I never forget this conference. 530 00:29:58,560 --> 00:30:01,520 It was the first Bitcoin conference I spoke at you know 531 00:30:01,520 --> 00:30:08,080 Bitcoin 2021 and you had that amazing announcement Max Keiser, 532 00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:12,920 Michael Saylor on stage F, Elon, you know the whole all those 533 00:30:12,920 --> 00:30:13,800 moments. Right. 534 00:30:14,280 --> 00:30:19,560 And you had the video announcement from Naimbu KLA 535 00:30:19,560 --> 00:30:23,280 basically saying we're gonna make Bitcoin legal tender And 536 00:30:23,280 --> 00:30:26,520 then it it seemed like the general consensus is it seems 537 00:30:26,520 --> 00:30:29,880 like it it slowed down a little bit after the after that. 538 00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:35,000 I have a theory on that. I think El Salvador caught them 539 00:30:35,280 --> 00:30:39,160 by surprise and then all of a sudden I think they're a little 540 00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:42,560 bit, they have their, their, their brace for impact. 541 00:30:43,520 --> 00:30:47,000 So what's your thoughts on this? Like, you know, are are you 542 00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:49,040 seeing pushback from governments? 543 00:30:49,040 --> 00:30:51,520 Are they, you know, is the IMF in there? 544 00:30:51,520 --> 00:30:54,400 Is the World Bank like, no, no, no, no, no. 545 00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:57,200 So what are your thoughts? And of course, Naimbu Kele is a 546 00:30:57,200 --> 00:30:59,840 is a great leader. You have someone who's very, 547 00:30:59,840 --> 00:31:03,160 very convicted in his beliefs and not to mention the fact that 548 00:31:03,160 --> 00:31:06,840 the popularity he has in his electorate is extremely high as 549 00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:09,120 the most popular president in the Americas. 550 00:31:09,360 --> 00:31:11,600 So, you know, what's your take on that? 551 00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:14,560 Are we gonna see a a country this cycle? 552 00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:19,320 Follow the steps of El Salvador. Yeah, so El Salvador took the 553 00:31:19,320 --> 00:31:24,440 large brunt of, I guess, animosity from the IMF on all of 554 00:31:24,440 --> 00:31:28,720 their Bitcoin things. And fortunately, they did really 555 00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:31,560 well for themselves, right? They boosted their economy, 556 00:31:31,560 --> 00:31:35,360 their GDP, their traditional bonds are rallying. 557 00:31:35,360 --> 00:31:39,400 So there's not that much that the IMF can say because 558 00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:41,920 everything they've done has been a success. 559 00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:46,600 So I think it makes it easier for subsequent countries to 560 00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:50,040 implement a Bitcoin strategy without fearing too much of the 561 00:31:50,040 --> 00:31:53,240 ire of the IMF. Basically they they they they 562 00:31:53,240 --> 00:31:56,320 went at the king and they have one shot but they they lost. 563 00:31:56,320 --> 00:31:58,680 So like what can they say with the next country? 564 00:31:58,680 --> 00:32:00,520 Like you shouldn't do that because El Salvador is 565 00:32:00,520 --> 00:32:02,920 successful. I mean they could but it doesn't 566 00:32:02,920 --> 00:32:05,560 make any sense. And if you look at the the media 567 00:32:05,560 --> 00:32:08,280 and all their publications, a lot of it is quieted down. 568 00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:11,400 The IMF is not criticizing them anymore and I think with good 569 00:32:11,400 --> 00:32:15,760 reason. So it makes it easier for us as 570 00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:18,760 Janet 3 to go and talk to the different countries and say, 571 00:32:18,760 --> 00:32:22,600 well you can do a Bitcoin strategy and it's OK because IMF 572 00:32:22,600 --> 00:32:25,360 is not going to say anything. Now I'm I'm sure when they do 573 00:32:25,360 --> 00:32:27,040 it, there will be a little bit of Sabre rattling. 574 00:32:27,040 --> 00:32:29,880 But at the end of the day, countries have to look out for 575 00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:33,960 their own best interests, not the interests of the IMF to keep 576 00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:36,960 loan sharking, right. So that is really a litmus test. 577 00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:40,680 Can the leader of our country take the decisions that are that 578 00:32:40,680 --> 00:32:44,320 are in the best interest and get that country out of debt, out of 579 00:32:44,440 --> 00:32:48,360 subservience and be sovereign? And the interesting trend that 580 00:32:48,360 --> 00:32:52,000 we're seeing now is we're, we're seeing politicians come out and 581 00:32:52,280 --> 00:32:55,120 talk about this and you can take that with a grain of salt, but 582 00:32:55,360 --> 00:33:00,200 that is the trend like Malay with Bobby Kennedy and a number 583 00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:03,280 of others. So the tide seems to be shifting 584 00:33:03,280 --> 00:33:08,720 towards more about pragmatism and being actually sovereign 585 00:33:08,800 --> 00:33:11,560 countries. Yeah, no. 586 00:33:11,560 --> 00:33:13,760 And I agree. I I think it's the things are 587 00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:18,520 definitely shifting and not only in the political sphere but also 588 00:33:18,520 --> 00:33:22,640 on an individual level. I think people are starting to 589 00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:27,200 question the the old just cause like to be frank like the amount 590 00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:31,960 of BS that has come out you know over the last five years and 591 00:33:31,960 --> 00:33:36,520 just how they're the SEC, how they how they handled that is a 592 00:33:36,520 --> 00:33:38,960 great example right. And I think people are just 593 00:33:38,960 --> 00:33:43,000 questioning the very what should be, what should the role of 594 00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:47,000 government be in my life? And I think I think that's good 595 00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:48,600 for Bitcoin. Everything's good for Bitcoin. 596 00:33:49,840 --> 00:33:54,840 So Samson, I don't even know what is, how do you go about, 597 00:33:54,960 --> 00:33:56,680 you know orange peeling a nation. 598 00:33:56,680 --> 00:34:00,600 How do you go about convincing a nation to adopt Bitcoin? 599 00:34:00,920 --> 00:34:02,880 I did. I remember I I did see those 600 00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:05,520 pictures with you and and the president of of Columbia. 601 00:34:05,760 --> 00:34:09,800 So how do you approach that? Well, we have a lot of help. 602 00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:14,159 So we have this network of Gen. 3 associates in all these 603 00:34:14,159 --> 00:34:15,800 different countries that help U.S. 604 00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:18,239 Open doors. And it's really just ordinary 605 00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:22,719 people like plebs and bitcoiners from all walks of life that want 606 00:34:22,719 --> 00:34:25,159 to help and they have a connection to somebody that 607 00:34:25,159 --> 00:34:27,560 might know somebody. And then eventually we work our 608 00:34:27,560 --> 00:34:31,000 way up through meetings and discussions and then we get that 609 00:34:31,000 --> 00:34:34,120 in person meeting and hopefully we get some real Bitcoin 610 00:34:34,120 --> 00:34:36,719 strategies coming out of that. And this is what we're mainly 611 00:34:36,719 --> 00:34:39,960 focused on for 2024, following up on all the things that were 612 00:34:39,960 --> 00:34:44,120 started in 2023 and just getting that next step. 613 00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:48,560 But it's really encouraging because I think with the ETFs 614 00:34:48,560 --> 00:34:53,520 being approved with Bitcoin price action going up, it makes 615 00:34:53,520 --> 00:34:57,520 it easier and it makes people more interested in Bitcoin. 616 00:34:57,920 --> 00:35:01,840 It's the Veblen effect, right? So when Bitcoin is down at 16 or 617 00:35:01,840 --> 00:35:04,960 15, nobody wants it, but when it's up, then people are 618 00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:08,360 interested again. So we have to use that and use 619 00:35:08,360 --> 00:35:11,640 what's in our favor to leverage that and take advantage of that. 620 00:35:12,200 --> 00:35:15,400 Absolutely. And the the the question I have 621 00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:19,760 for you right is, so let's say a government has a very strong 622 00:35:19,880 --> 00:35:23,320 yacht currency like you know like the the United States or 623 00:35:23,320 --> 00:35:25,920 you know the European Union, Oregon, you know Switzerland for 624 00:35:25,920 --> 00:35:29,040 example. What incentive does the 625 00:35:29,040 --> 00:35:33,120 government there have to adopt something like Bitcoin because 626 00:35:33,120 --> 00:35:36,040 it essentially would be a competitor to their Fiat 627 00:35:36,040 --> 00:35:37,800 currency. And then of course, we all know 628 00:35:37,800 --> 00:35:40,520 that governments all around the world love to deficit spend, 629 00:35:40,520 --> 00:35:43,640 love to spend money that they don't have and they do that via 630 00:35:43,640 --> 00:35:47,160 money printing. So what incentive does, you 631 00:35:47,160 --> 00:35:53,400 know, do these countries have to not only make Bitcoin legal 632 00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:56,720 tender but even put Bitcoin on equal footing to their to their 633 00:35:56,720 --> 00:35:58,640 currencies? Because then at that point it's 634 00:35:58,640 --> 00:36:01,160 game over, right? It's it's just like you said 635 00:36:01,160 --> 00:36:03,760 about, you know, Donald Trump. It's it's not necessarily 636 00:36:03,760 --> 00:36:07,280 important for him to be advocating for Bitcoin. 637 00:36:07,280 --> 00:36:09,080 The market forces are gonna do their thing. 638 00:36:09,440 --> 00:36:12,720 Just him stopping CBDC's just gives us time, right. 639 00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:17,840 So yeah, what incentive do? How do you approach that in the 640 00:36:17,840 --> 00:36:23,680 first place? Well, it's challenging because 641 00:36:23,680 --> 00:36:26,360 if you have a strong Fiat currency, you're not 642 00:36:26,360 --> 00:36:29,080 incentivized to do anything with Bitcoin unless you're able to 643 00:36:29,080 --> 00:36:32,880 see past the short term and understand that all Fiat 644 00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:35,880 currencies will fail eventually. It's just a matter of time, 645 00:36:36,000 --> 00:36:39,080 right? And it's all relative to one 646 00:36:39,080 --> 00:36:40,520 another. Everything is sort of pegged to 647 00:36:40,520 --> 00:36:43,960 the US dollar in some way. So if the US dollar goes and 648 00:36:43,960 --> 00:36:47,320 that's getting more and more likely, if you look at debt and 649 00:36:47,360 --> 00:36:50,000 the amount that you have to pay to service that debt, it is 650 00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:54,880 starting to get very cumbersome. Like they cannot keep paying 651 00:36:55,960 --> 00:36:58,000 hundreds of billions of dollars to service this debt. 652 00:36:58,000 --> 00:37:00,600 That's going to keep ballooning because just like with compound 653 00:37:00,600 --> 00:37:03,840 interest, well, it is compound interest, but it's compound 654 00:37:03,840 --> 00:37:07,240 interest on debt which is just as powerful as compound interest 655 00:37:07,240 --> 00:37:10,320 on savings, right. So it's not a really good 656 00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:12,400 situation I think for the whole Fiat system. 657 00:37:12,400 --> 00:37:15,360 And if you can see further ahead, a few steps ahead, then 658 00:37:15,360 --> 00:37:20,040 you would want to make a Bitcoin strategy and implement some form 659 00:37:20,040 --> 00:37:23,560 of Bitcoin holdings either at the central bank or through 660 00:37:23,560 --> 00:37:25,160 mining. And this is what we're advising 661 00:37:25,160 --> 00:37:29,360 countries to do because you can see that you're future proofing 662 00:37:29,360 --> 00:37:31,160 your country against the Fiat collapse. 663 00:37:31,560 --> 00:37:33,880 But it is challenging and I think This is why we don't 664 00:37:33,880 --> 00:37:38,680 really pursue A wealthy, well quote UN quote wealthy Western 665 00:37:38,680 --> 00:37:41,440 nations to to pursue a Bitcoin strategy. 666 00:37:41,440 --> 00:37:44,760 We more more focus on Latin America and other countries that 667 00:37:45,120 --> 00:37:49,640 need Bitcoin and they have the demand for it right now because 668 00:37:49,640 --> 00:37:52,480 they they need money they need to build roads and 669 00:37:52,480 --> 00:37:53,920 infrastructures or anything like that. 670 00:37:53,920 --> 00:37:57,360 So we just go where we're more needed and we'll be 671 00:37:57,360 --> 00:37:59,920 opportunistic and we'll we'll try to work with Western 672 00:37:59,920 --> 00:38:03,240 countries but it's really an uphill battle because it's so 673 00:38:03,240 --> 00:38:08,400 insular and they're they're so unaware of the the Fiat money 674 00:38:08,400 --> 00:38:10,440 system but there are inroads, right. 675 00:38:10,440 --> 00:38:14,040 So in Germany you have Bitcoin in Bundestag, Bitcoin in 676 00:38:14,040 --> 00:38:18,040 parliament and this initiative that's set up to educate the 677 00:38:18,040 --> 00:38:21,720 politicians in Bundestag and I'll be going there to speak 678 00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:24,920 later this year and they have a a stellar lineup of all these 679 00:38:24,920 --> 00:38:27,600 other speakers like Block Trainer and other guys. 680 00:38:27,880 --> 00:38:31,480 So we'll go and we'll try to educate the the parliament and 681 00:38:31,480 --> 00:38:34,440 see what we can do. But it's not like we're going 682 00:38:34,720 --> 00:38:38,400 not for for Gen. 3, we're not going to you know go all in and 683 00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:41,920 focus on the Western countries. We'll, we'll do what we can, but 684 00:38:42,400 --> 00:38:45,720 the efforts, the biggest payoff for our efforts is probably in 685 00:38:45,720 --> 00:38:48,560 the global South, in Latin America and maybe Africa and 686 00:38:48,560 --> 00:38:50,560 other countries. Gotcha. 687 00:38:50,880 --> 00:38:55,960 I mean so some being from Venezuela originally, my parents 688 00:38:55,960 --> 00:39:00,840 and my background, I understand the culture a little bit and I 689 00:39:00,840 --> 00:39:05,600 completely 100% agree with you. And I had Jeff Booth on maybe a 690 00:39:05,600 --> 00:39:09,040 couple months ago or so and he said something very similar. 691 00:39:09,040 --> 00:39:11,680 He said. I'm optimistic about the global 692 00:39:11,680 --> 00:39:17,040 S because they're farther away from the benefits of being able 693 00:39:17,040 --> 00:39:19,400 to print their own money, right? If you're someone like 694 00:39:19,400 --> 00:39:23,560 Argentina. I said this as a joke the other 695 00:39:23,560 --> 00:39:26,320 day when Malay got elected. I'm like, guys, now we have a 696 00:39:26,320 --> 00:39:29,800 blueprint. All we need is 150% inflation 697 00:39:29,800 --> 00:39:31,480 and we can get a libertarian elected. 698 00:39:32,520 --> 00:39:37,800 But but yeah, I 100% agree. Could you drop some hints? 699 00:39:37,800 --> 00:39:39,240 Maybe? I don't want to put you in a 700 00:39:39,240 --> 00:39:41,800 corner. What what? 701 00:39:42,160 --> 00:39:44,880 You know Latin American country you're optimistic about? 702 00:39:46,640 --> 00:39:51,400 Well, to see, I mean, I'm optimistic about all the 703 00:39:51,400 --> 00:39:54,320 countries we've had engagements with because the presidents 704 00:39:54,320 --> 00:39:58,960 there are very receptive, but they are not Bitcoiners yet, 705 00:39:58,960 --> 00:40:00,880 right. So the benefit and I think part 706 00:40:00,880 --> 00:40:04,960 of the misalignment of expectations is in El Salvador, 707 00:40:05,200 --> 00:40:08,400 the President Buchelli was a Bitcoiner that became president. 708 00:40:08,760 --> 00:40:10,840 We're starting from zero. So the presidents in these 709 00:40:10,840 --> 00:40:12,360 countries are not bitcoiners first. 710 00:40:12,360 --> 00:40:15,400 We're trying to get them there. So it'll take more time. 711 00:40:15,400 --> 00:40:18,160 And even if we get them there, there's still a lot of 712 00:40:19,240 --> 00:40:22,400 bureaucracy to deal with to implement things and different 713 00:40:22,400 --> 00:40:25,720 factions and. Different ideologies at play. 714 00:40:25,960 --> 00:40:28,560 So it's it is a really challenging Rd. but we are here 715 00:40:28,560 --> 00:40:31,360 for the long run, right? We never expected we're going to 716 00:40:31,360 --> 00:40:34,760 get a ton of countries like tomorrow, but we can engage with 717 00:40:34,760 --> 00:40:37,840 a ton of countries and of that we should have a subset 718 00:40:38,160 --> 00:40:41,680 relatively soon doing some concrete Bitcoin projects, maybe 719 00:40:41,680 --> 00:40:44,120 mining, if not legal tender, maybe it's mining right. 720 00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:46,600 But actually better than legal tender is what Malay did in 721 00:40:46,600 --> 00:40:48,480 Argentina, which is deregulation. 722 00:40:48,480 --> 00:40:51,120 You can use whatever you want and let the free market compete. 723 00:40:51,600 --> 00:40:54,680 So there's all these different paths towards Bitcoin adoption 724 00:40:54,680 --> 00:40:58,080 and we just have to be strategic and choose the best ones that we 725 00:40:58,080 --> 00:41:02,160 can push forward. How do you feel about the fee 726 00:41:02,160 --> 00:41:04,800 environment? So Bob Burnett, a good friend of 727 00:41:04,800 --> 00:41:08,120 mine, came on the podcast a couple of weeks ago and he said 728 00:41:08,440 --> 00:41:13,000 that, you know, the era of low fees is over. 729 00:41:13,000 --> 00:41:16,280 Now we're heading into an area, era of, you know, this is the 730 00:41:16,280 --> 00:41:18,400 most valuable real estate on the planet. 731 00:41:19,040 --> 00:41:21,400 You're gonna, you know, potentially have a high fee 732 00:41:21,400 --> 00:41:25,600 environment moving forward in Bitcoin's history and you know 733 00:41:25,840 --> 00:41:28,840 that prices out a lot of people in a way, right? 734 00:41:28,840 --> 00:41:32,560 So you know, let's say you want to have $100 worth of bit, let's 735 00:41:32,560 --> 00:41:35,480 say bitcoins at, you know, half $1,000,000, a $1,000,000 and you 736 00:41:35,480 --> 00:41:38,840 want to buy $100 worth of Bitcoin, You know, just to send 737 00:41:38,840 --> 00:41:43,640 that $100, you're gonna be paying a, a, you know, big chunk 738 00:41:43,640 --> 00:41:46,360 of that, right? So you know, of course, you 739 00:41:46,360 --> 00:41:48,360 know, been in Bitcoin for eight years now. 740 00:41:48,400 --> 00:41:50,440 Samsung, I'm sure you've been in Bitcoin a lot longer. 741 00:41:51,920 --> 00:41:53,840 That's OK for us. We're just like fine. 742 00:41:54,120 --> 00:41:57,520 But you know, for is Bitcoin for everyone? 743 00:41:57,880 --> 00:42:00,520 Like, you know, like what happens to someone who just 744 00:42:00,520 --> 00:42:02,880 wants to buy a small portion and their feed out? 745 00:42:03,600 --> 00:42:09,040 Yeah, Bitcoin is for everyone and the fees are going to be an 746 00:42:09,040 --> 00:42:11,640 issue if you want to transact on chain. 747 00:42:12,240 --> 00:42:14,800 But fortunately we do have things like layer Two's like 748 00:42:14,800 --> 00:42:19,080 lightning, like liquid that can enable people to transact also 749 00:42:19,280 --> 00:42:23,120 fetiments too. So I think the way that we will 750 00:42:23,120 --> 00:42:26,560 onboard most people is through some combination of Lightning 751 00:42:26,560 --> 00:42:30,920 plus a fetamine or a liquid federation because that is 752 00:42:30,920 --> 00:42:33,960 really the only way, right? I did some testing when we 753 00:42:33,960 --> 00:42:37,040 launched Aqua with some of the non custodial Lightning wallets 754 00:42:37,280 --> 00:42:39,800 or sorry, there's one more path to which is custodial Lightning. 755 00:42:40,320 --> 00:42:43,320 But that's challenging in and of itself because you can see 756 00:42:43,320 --> 00:42:46,800 wallets like wallets of Satoshi being removed from app stores or 757 00:42:46,880 --> 00:42:49,480 their self removing themselves from app stores in certain 758 00:42:49,480 --> 00:42:55,040 jurisdictions. So the the key is that lightning 759 00:42:55,040 --> 00:42:56,440 is bound to the main chain, right? 760 00:42:56,440 --> 00:42:59,440 It works really well when it's relatively cheap on the main 761 00:42:59,440 --> 00:43:02,760 chain, but as soon as fees go up it all breaks. 762 00:43:02,880 --> 00:43:08,160 And This is why having a a mid step in between Lightning and 763 00:43:08,160 --> 00:43:11,040 the main chain like Lightning Light Liquid is useful because 764 00:43:11,040 --> 00:43:12,840 you can go down to liquid and come back up. 765 00:43:13,120 --> 00:43:15,680 And what we've seen is a lot of people have started using that 766 00:43:15,680 --> 00:43:18,640 use case. They're using pure swap to 767 00:43:18,640 --> 00:43:22,640 rebalance channels or they're using bolts to rebalance as 768 00:43:22,640 --> 00:43:26,960 well. And bolts volumes for lightning 769 00:43:27,240 --> 00:43:29,600 rebalancing are through the roof on liquid. 770 00:43:30,120 --> 00:43:33,600 And I think this is really the only way because if you go to 771 00:43:33,600 --> 00:43:35,480 look at some of the non custodial lightning wallets out 772 00:43:35,480 --> 00:43:40,800 there, they'll charge you 1% to open a channel or some minimum 773 00:43:40,800 --> 00:43:44,280 fee of like $11.00. So you can't really just get 774 00:43:44,280 --> 00:43:47,560 someone in, I don't know Columbia to download a lightning 775 00:43:47,560 --> 00:43:50,680 wallet and send them a couple Sats if it's non custodial, 776 00:43:50,680 --> 00:43:52,480 right? The only way to do that is with 777 00:43:52,480 --> 00:43:56,160 something like Waldo, Satoshi or with Aqua because we will swap 778 00:43:56,160 --> 00:43:59,280 to Liquid. But if you want them to be, you 779 00:43:59,280 --> 00:44:05,200 know, in the ideal coin operation area of self custody 780 00:44:05,200 --> 00:44:08,840 and everything and non custodial, then it's not really 781 00:44:08,840 --> 00:44:12,120 possible unless you're willing to pay $11.00 to send someone 782 00:44:12,120 --> 00:44:13,680 100 sets. Yeah. 783 00:44:14,120 --> 00:44:17,360 And I think you you, you, you better delete there for for a 784 00:44:17,360 --> 00:44:20,080 second, Samsung. So you're saying that if you can 785 00:44:20,080 --> 00:44:24,240 download Aqua Wallet right now, you could start receiving 786 00:44:24,240 --> 00:44:28,200 Lightning transactions? Very little fees, similar 787 00:44:28,200 --> 00:44:31,440 experience to Wallet of Satoshi? Yeah, exactly. 788 00:44:31,840 --> 00:44:36,640 So right now it's it's not ideal for that size of a transaction 789 00:44:36,640 --> 00:44:41,560 like sending less than 1000 sets because it is an atomic swap and 790 00:44:41,680 --> 00:44:47,440 it is, it is a swap to Liquid. So there is like probably a 2019 791 00:44:47,440 --> 00:44:50,280 cent fee right now to send and receive. 792 00:44:50,840 --> 00:44:55,000 But we are working on an update that will allow us to use 793 00:44:55,040 --> 00:44:57,880 unconfidential transactions or non confidential transactions on 794 00:44:57,880 --> 00:45:00,960 Liquid and that will decrease the cost by a factor of 10. 795 00:45:01,240 --> 00:45:04,320 So you'll be able to do that for you know two cents maybe. 796 00:45:04,760 --> 00:45:08,640 And I think that's this gives you that same wallet of Satoshi 797 00:45:08,640 --> 00:45:12,520 experience where you can say, hey, download the Aqua and I'll 798 00:45:12,520 --> 00:45:17,080 send you 1000 Sats or 2000 Sats. Gotcha. 799 00:45:17,520 --> 00:45:20,640 Very, very cool. That is really interesting. 800 00:45:21,160 --> 00:45:24,520 I really, really want to play around with it now and just kind 801 00:45:24,520 --> 00:45:28,440 of experiment. So I do wanna ask you this 802 00:45:28,440 --> 00:45:32,760 Samson. So well, that just got me so 803 00:45:32,760 --> 00:45:34,160 excited. I lost my train of thought. 804 00:45:36,960 --> 00:45:42,040 OK, so part of the reason that the wallet of Satoshi pulled out 805 00:45:42,080 --> 00:45:46,640 of the US was, and I posted this the other day by the way on 806 00:45:46,640 --> 00:45:50,800 Twitter. And it was like and of course 807 00:45:50,800 --> 00:45:54,040 they were trolling in this because we're not available in 808 00:45:54,040 --> 00:45:57,040 the app stores in China, US and North Korea. 809 00:45:57,040 --> 00:45:59,720 Like it was such a like that's such a strong statement. 810 00:46:00,440 --> 00:46:04,240 It is. And the reason that I believe 811 00:46:04,240 --> 00:46:06,800 they pulled out is because of the DOJ press conference with 812 00:46:06,880 --> 00:46:10,000 finance when they literally mentioned terrorism 15 times 813 00:46:10,440 --> 00:46:13,720 even though we know that less than 1% of illicit finances, you 814 00:46:13,720 --> 00:46:16,520 know, used you Bitcoin. But that is a great excuse for 815 00:46:16,520 --> 00:46:20,760 government, right? So is, is this like a custodial? 816 00:46:20,760 --> 00:46:23,360 Is this custodial? Is it self custodial? 817 00:46:25,120 --> 00:46:28,080 How does the Aqua How's Aqua Wallet work? 818 00:46:28,640 --> 00:46:30,800 Yeah, so Aqua is a non custodial. 819 00:46:30,800 --> 00:46:35,000 So when you create a wallet, you have one seed that generates 820 00:46:35,000 --> 00:46:36,960 your Bitcoin wallet and your liquid wallet. 821 00:46:36,960 --> 00:46:38,760 And that and hold on and and that's associate. 822 00:46:38,760 --> 00:46:41,720 So the the main wallet of course is not custodial, but I'm saying 823 00:46:41,720 --> 00:46:44,160 the lightning wallet as well is not custodial. 824 00:46:44,240 --> 00:46:47,000 There is no Lightning wallet, so it's swapping from Lightning to 825 00:46:47,000 --> 00:46:49,400 Liquid. So Liquid is what's holding that 826 00:46:49,400 --> 00:46:52,720 balance, and then you swap back out when you send out over 827 00:46:52,720 --> 00:46:56,440 Lightning again. OK, and could you explain, 828 00:46:56,440 --> 00:46:59,480 because I know that Lightning is very very popular amongst 829 00:46:59,480 --> 00:47:02,840 bitcoiners, but Liquid's always been around for a while now. 830 00:47:03,320 --> 00:47:06,160 But it seems like the use case is starting to ramp up, and of 831 00:47:06,160 --> 00:47:08,120 course people are looking looking at it. 832 00:47:08,120 --> 00:47:12,320 Now what is liquid? So Liquid is a Bitcoin side 833 00:47:12,320 --> 00:47:14,720 chain. It's a layer two of Bitcoin. 834 00:47:14,720 --> 00:47:17,640 And I think some people were critiquing saying it's not a 835 00:47:17,640 --> 00:47:22,400 layer 2, but I mean when Blockscream started developing 836 00:47:22,560 --> 00:47:28,160 side chains and Liquid, this is like in 2014, 2015, we're all 837 00:47:28,160 --> 00:47:30,840 calling it layer two, so we're calling it layer two. 838 00:47:30,840 --> 00:47:33,600 Before many of these people that say it's not a layer 2 even knew 839 00:47:33,600 --> 00:47:36,720 about Bitcoin. So it's kind of funny that way, 840 00:47:36,960 --> 00:47:40,320 but it's a side chain, so it's another chain that's anchored to 841 00:47:40,320 --> 00:47:43,840 Bitcoin. It's the almost the same code 842 00:47:43,840 --> 00:47:46,080 base. It's like 99% the same as 843 00:47:46,080 --> 00:47:48,480 Bitcoin except for you have assets in there and other things 844 00:47:48,480 --> 00:47:51,560 like Confidential transactions and Liquid. 845 00:47:51,720 --> 00:47:55,800 And the that software suite has largely been a testing ground 846 00:47:55,800 --> 00:47:58,040 for a lot of things that eventually do make their way to 847 00:47:58,040 --> 00:48:00,360 Bitcoin, like SegWit and other things. 848 00:48:00,360 --> 00:48:05,080 So it's it's definitely very tightly bound to Bitcoin. 849 00:48:05,080 --> 00:48:08,400 So when you want to get one Bitcoin in liquid, you have to 850 00:48:08,400 --> 00:48:11,120 peg in one Bitcoin from the main chain. 851 00:48:11,480 --> 00:48:13,560 So it's always a one to one relationship. 852 00:48:13,760 --> 00:48:17,680 You can't have fractional Bitcoin in Liquid, so once you 853 00:48:17,680 --> 00:48:21,080 have that then you can transact it with a one minute block. 854 00:48:21,080 --> 00:48:24,360 Times. Fees are about 19 cents or so, 855 00:48:25,160 --> 00:48:28,200 and you have confidentiality, so when you send someone a 856 00:48:28,200 --> 00:48:31,520 transaction, you can't actually see the amount or asset type 857 00:48:31,560 --> 00:48:34,520 that they're sending, which gives a lot of privacy benefits 858 00:48:34,520 --> 00:48:36,800 to users. Absolutely. 859 00:48:36,800 --> 00:48:40,040 And so another thing you you you mentioned this I think in your 860 00:48:40,040 --> 00:48:43,200 tweet in regards to the $1 million Bitcoin that it was 861 00:48:43,200 --> 00:48:46,680 going to be painful. I feel like the and and and I'm 862 00:48:46,680 --> 00:48:49,800 sure you read this right Ben the car Man's post in relation to 863 00:48:49,800 --> 00:48:54,400 the state of lightning. I don't think we're ready for 864 00:48:54,840 --> 00:48:56,920 you know this hyper bitcoinization. 865 00:48:56,920 --> 00:49:00,600 I don't think we're ready The Bitcoin is ready for this 866 00:49:00,600 --> 00:49:03,960 massive influx of of of users you know. 867 00:49:04,480 --> 00:49:07,680 So what would you say on that? Probably not and that's the the 868 00:49:07,760 --> 00:49:12,240 basis of Max Payne theory. So the best case scenario I 869 00:49:12,240 --> 00:49:15,280 think is Bitcoin. Price goes up very gradually 870 00:49:15,280 --> 00:49:18,680 towards a million over a number of years, and we all have a lot 871 00:49:18,680 --> 00:49:21,480 of time to stack SAT's and filled out everything that's 872 00:49:21,480 --> 00:49:24,440 needed. And Max Payne theory says, well, 873 00:49:24,480 --> 00:49:25,800 you probably won't have that time. 874 00:49:25,800 --> 00:49:29,680 It's going to be a mad scramble and you know we won't be ready 875 00:49:29,680 --> 00:49:32,080 with their twos and all the wallets. 876 00:49:32,080 --> 00:49:37,080 We won't be ready to on board all the people and a lot of pubs 877 00:49:37,080 --> 00:49:39,440 out there that have been DC ING are going to get stuck with 878 00:49:39,760 --> 00:49:44,360 unspendable UTXOS because these are now, I don't know, 100,000 879 00:49:44,360 --> 00:49:47,400 SAT's or something like that. So that's the idea. 880 00:49:47,400 --> 00:49:50,000 Like, it's probably going to happen and catch us off guard 881 00:49:50,040 --> 00:49:51,960 and we're we're all going to be unprepared. 882 00:49:52,200 --> 00:49:53,800 That's the basis of Max Payne theory. 883 00:49:54,280 --> 00:49:59,240 So OK, and then let me ask you something why you This is 884 00:49:59,240 --> 00:50:04,080 fascinating. So why you OK Max Payne theory? 885 00:50:04,080 --> 00:50:05,640 And then could you explain the theory? 886 00:50:05,640 --> 00:50:06,920 Like where? Where does it come from? 887 00:50:07,880 --> 00:50:10,320 It's. I think it comes from options 888 00:50:10,320 --> 00:50:11,920 expiry. There's a certain point in which 889 00:50:11,920 --> 00:50:14,600 the options options expire. That's Max Payne. 890 00:50:14,600 --> 00:50:17,600 Like that'll cause the most losses for the most number of 891 00:50:17,600 --> 00:50:20,320 people. So you can apply that, I think, 892 00:50:20,320 --> 00:50:24,400 to Bitcoin in the world at at at whole. 893 00:50:24,400 --> 00:50:29,320 So if Bitcoin does shoot up to 1,000,000, that's probably Max 894 00:50:29,320 --> 00:50:31,600 Payne for the largest number of people. 895 00:50:31,920 --> 00:50:35,920 Because instead of being able to make a material difference in 896 00:50:35,920 --> 00:50:38,800 your financial, financial, economic situation by acquiring 897 00:50:38,800 --> 00:50:43,080 a lot of Bitcoin, the contillionaires are going to buy 898 00:50:43,080 --> 00:50:46,000 up all the Bitcoin, drive the price up, and you'll still have 899 00:50:46,000 --> 00:50:48,800 this divide between the rich and the poor instead of that being 900 00:50:48,800 --> 00:50:51,840 equalized. So basically, 8 billion people 901 00:50:51,880 --> 00:50:54,680 are not gonna be able to get in early, they're just gonna be 902 00:50:55,240 --> 00:51:00,120 earning Bitcoin AT1M per BTC. Interesting. 903 00:51:00,120 --> 00:51:04,480 OK, so OK And you think, and you said something really 904 00:51:04,480 --> 00:51:09,600 interesting, which is the, the almost as if Bitcoin would be an 905 00:51:09,600 --> 00:51:14,560 equalizer between, you know, cuz right now the wealth inequality 906 00:51:15,000 --> 00:51:17,680 is caused literally because of the Fiat money printer, right? 907 00:51:18,120 --> 00:51:20,920 The more money they print, the lower middle classes are saving 908 00:51:20,920 --> 00:51:24,520 and earning in Fiat and the wealthier are saving in assets. 909 00:51:24,520 --> 00:51:26,440 Therefore they benefit from asset inflation. 910 00:51:27,280 --> 00:51:29,560 They get richer and then everyone else just gets left 911 00:51:29,560 --> 00:51:33,280 behind and and you think Bitcoin is a We'll fix that. 912 00:51:34,160 --> 00:51:37,640 Well, it will fix that in some ways, but if the price rises 913 00:51:37,640 --> 00:51:41,400 very rapidly, then you lose some of that fixing effect because 914 00:51:41,920 --> 00:51:45,760 you're not going to get Bitcoin at sub 1,000,000 anymore. 915 00:51:45,760 --> 00:51:49,480 You'll be getting it at, you know, a million or more even, 916 00:51:49,480 --> 00:51:51,360 right, Sam? So you're making me incredibly 917 00:51:51,360 --> 00:51:56,160 bullish right now also also, energy is coming through the 918 00:51:56,160 --> 00:51:58,120 screen. Well, is the price going up, 919 00:51:58,160 --> 00:52:00,080 that's the best but. It is it. 920 00:52:00,120 --> 00:52:03,280 It actually went from 4040 thousand to now it's back to 921 00:52:03,280 --> 00:52:07,120 4041.5. Yeah, but the main point is all 922 00:52:07,120 --> 00:52:08,720 of this is a rounding error, right? 923 00:52:08,760 --> 00:52:12,480 If you believe that Bitcoin is going to become the new base 924 00:52:12,840 --> 00:52:15,680 currency of a financial system and the money of the world, then 925 00:52:16,120 --> 00:52:21,360 it doesn't matter if it's 0.04 million per Bitcoin or if it's 926 00:52:21,360 --> 00:52:26,760 0.5 million per Bitcoin. OK and so and by the way, I'm 927 00:52:26,760 --> 00:52:29,880 obviously my show's name is simply Bitcoin. 928 00:52:29,880 --> 00:52:32,560 I'm I'm on the camp of hyper bitcoinization. 929 00:52:33,600 --> 00:52:37,040 What what is the timeline here? So are we talking about 930 00:52:37,040 --> 00:52:40,200 $1,000,000 Bitcoin with, you know, you're saying basically 931 00:52:40,200 --> 00:52:43,280 very, very soon, but let's say it takes a little bit longer. 932 00:52:43,280 --> 00:52:46,920 Let's say we take the least painful route, the less painful 933 00:52:46,920 --> 00:52:50,960 route, right, And give everyone an opportunity to stack cheaper 934 00:52:50,960 --> 00:52:53,520 Sats. And by the way, I love the 935 00:52:53,520 --> 00:52:55,400 denominator thing. I think it's absolutely 936 00:52:55,400 --> 00:52:58,040 hilarious and I'm gonna adopt it myself to .04. 937 00:52:58,360 --> 00:53:00,040 It's so good. It's so good. 938 00:53:01,240 --> 00:53:04,960 But let's say you know it it takes a little bit slower. 939 00:53:04,960 --> 00:53:09,680 You know, I think it was Kathy Wood that released her base, Her 940 00:53:09,960 --> 00:53:15,600 her bear, her base, her bull. Her bear was 250 K her her base 941 00:53:15,600 --> 00:53:22,080 was 650 K and her bull was 1.5. And this was by the year 2030. 942 00:53:22,720 --> 00:53:29,240 Where do you stand on that? Well, I think it, it should 943 00:53:30,280 --> 00:53:32,760 reach something like a million within the next year. 944 00:53:32,840 --> 00:53:35,480 I would say that's my more Oh my God estimate. 945 00:53:36,400 --> 00:53:39,720 And the reason why I put it, I front loaded it and I said it'll 946 00:53:39,720 --> 00:53:43,600 be very, very soon before the halving is because typically we 947 00:53:43,600 --> 00:53:47,920 make new all times high. We make new all time highs after 948 00:53:47,920 --> 00:53:50,680 the halving, after some number of months after the halving. 949 00:53:51,240 --> 00:53:55,800 And that would just mean that there is a a cycle and I don't 950 00:53:55,800 --> 00:53:58,080 think that we will continue to have that cycle. 951 00:53:58,080 --> 00:54:01,440 So that means it has to be before the halving and before 952 00:54:01,440 --> 00:54:04,160 halving means very, very soon. Got you. 953 00:54:04,280 --> 00:54:08,760 But yeah, like when we make our so the the 1,000,000 thing is 954 00:54:08,760 --> 00:54:10,160 really for fun, it's for entertainment. 955 00:54:10,160 --> 00:54:13,040 And I some people are really angry saying you shouldn't make 956 00:54:13,040 --> 00:54:16,400 predictions, but I think bit pain also gets a lot of Flack 957 00:54:16,400 --> 00:54:17,920 for it too because he's also making it. 958 00:54:17,920 --> 00:54:22,360 But we don't believe that you can one, predict and two, 959 00:54:22,960 --> 00:54:24,760 Bitcoin is gonna go to a million sooner or later. 960 00:54:24,760 --> 00:54:28,440 So it's just like we're predicting, you know, next year 961 00:54:28,440 --> 00:54:30,000 there's gonna be a summer, right? 962 00:54:30,000 --> 00:54:36,400 It's inevitability. So it's it's for fun, but it's 963 00:54:36,400 --> 00:54:40,120 really just a number out there that we can anchor to and you 964 00:54:40,120 --> 00:54:42,040 know, have fun with and entertain ourselves as we go 965 00:54:42,040 --> 00:54:46,680 into this next bull market. Absolutely 100% and and so and 966 00:54:46,680 --> 00:54:50,120 we were talking about the diminishing returns thing 967 00:54:50,120 --> 00:54:51,240 earlier on. Right. 968 00:54:51,640 --> 00:54:54,400 So and I think that's an American huddle did a great job 969 00:54:55,080 --> 00:54:58,000 covering this you know and he, I think he put like a Squirtle 970 00:54:58,000 --> 00:55:01,840 with the with the saxophone like someone tells me that's like we 971 00:55:01,840 --> 00:55:06,440 can't hit 500. My brain is thinking this so OK 972 00:55:07,440 --> 00:55:10,240 so then if you were to put I hate getting into price 973 00:55:10,240 --> 00:55:13,000 prediction stuff, maybe let's just avoid that topic 974 00:55:13,000 --> 00:55:17,640 altogether. But OK, I think I forgot one 975 00:55:17,640 --> 00:55:20,360 point. I was saying when we make 976 00:55:21,000 --> 00:55:26,280 projections for things like Bitcoin bonds, we use a 60% 977 00:55:26,440 --> 00:55:33,360 median returns every year. So if we started from 30 978 00:55:33,360 --> 00:55:38,200 something last year in 10 years time, we should be at just about 979 00:55:38,200 --> 00:55:41,840 3 million per coin. So that's a very, very 980 00:55:41,840 --> 00:55:44,800 conservative estimate and that's based on historical price 981 00:55:44,800 --> 00:55:51,560 appreciation after 2014 or so. So you know 1,000,000 in the 982 00:55:51,560 --> 00:55:54,880 next couple years is almost definitely in line with a very 983 00:55:54,880 --> 00:55:57,200 conservative estimate. Yeah, yeah. 984 00:55:58,000 --> 00:56:01,240 And I I would agree with that. And let me let me ask you 985 00:56:01,240 --> 00:56:03,280 something else. So you know we are getting to 986 00:56:03,280 --> 00:56:05,480 the top of the hour and I do want to be respectful of your 987 00:56:05,480 --> 00:56:09,000 time. What are you most excited for 988 00:56:10,360 --> 00:56:13,000 within the next 5 to 10 years? Like what? 989 00:56:13,000 --> 00:56:17,720 What do you, I mean obviously nation state adoption, but what 990 00:56:17,720 --> 00:56:20,200 is you know at at the top of your mind? 991 00:56:20,200 --> 00:56:22,560 What is something that you feel so passionate about? 992 00:56:22,560 --> 00:56:24,520 You're like wow this is this is going to happen. 993 00:56:24,520 --> 00:56:29,280 I'm a content creator so for me it's like media Bitcoin content 994 00:56:29,440 --> 00:56:33,360 cross crossing, the breaking the Bitcoin echo chamber. 995 00:56:33,360 --> 00:56:35,880 Now it's being talked about in the mainstream consciousness as 996 00:56:35,880 --> 00:56:37,520 a content creator. That's my dream. 997 00:56:37,520 --> 00:56:39,280 That's what I'm seeing. That's what I hope for. 998 00:56:39,640 --> 00:56:42,600 So what are you most excited for, Samsung Mau? 999 00:56:43,640 --> 00:56:47,840 Well, I think I'm most excited about reaching the state of 1000 00:56:47,840 --> 00:56:50,400 hyper bitcoinization where everyone is just using Bitcoin. 1001 00:56:50,880 --> 00:56:53,480 And I think we'll we'll have so much more efficiencies in the 1002 00:56:53,480 --> 00:56:56,680 world where you can travel and just spend Bitcoin without 1003 00:56:56,680 --> 00:57:01,640 having to go to the little kiosk and converting your your your 1004 00:57:01,640 --> 00:57:05,080 dollars to pesos or EUR or whatever. 1005 00:57:05,160 --> 00:57:08,480 And you just save a lot of time. And I think it'll make 1006 00:57:08,480 --> 00:57:12,080 international trade better too if everyone is trading on that 1007 00:57:12,080 --> 00:57:16,280 Bitcoin standard. So really it's just being able 1008 00:57:16,280 --> 00:57:20,600 to enjoy life on on Bitcoin whether you're traveling or 1009 00:57:20,760 --> 00:57:22,120 trying to save. Because right now, if you're 1010 00:57:22,120 --> 00:57:25,160 trying to save, you can't really do it in the Fiat system. 1011 00:57:25,160 --> 00:57:26,920 You have to invest your money to save. 1012 00:57:26,960 --> 00:57:29,240 But on a Bitcoin standard, you can simply save. 1013 00:57:29,240 --> 00:57:33,560 So Bitcoin just streamlines so many things when we all adopt it 1014 00:57:33,560 --> 00:57:37,840 as a standard. 100% and I think the Aqua wallet is just one step 1015 00:57:37,960 --> 00:57:42,960 towards that, enabling that seamlessness where we are 1016 00:57:42,960 --> 00:57:46,200 currently in time. Anyways, Samson, this was truly 1017 00:57:46,200 --> 00:57:48,000 an honor. I really, really enjoyed this 1018 00:57:48,000 --> 00:57:48,800 conversation. Guys. 1019 00:57:48,800 --> 00:57:53,760 Check out the Aqua wallet, go to aquawallet.iocheckoutjan3.com 1020 00:57:54,360 --> 00:57:57,240 and Samson, thank you so much for coming on the show and hope 1021 00:57:57,240 --> 00:57:59,040 to have you back on in a couple months or so. 1022 00:57:59,240 --> 00:58:00,400 Yeah, Let's do it. Thanks. 1023 00:58:00,760 --> 00:58:03,680 Really appreciate it guys. Thank you so much for tuning 1024 00:58:03,680 --> 00:58:05,400 into another episode of Simply Bitcoin IRL. 1025 00:58:05,400 --> 00:58:07,480 If you enjoyed the show smash that like button, consider 1026 00:58:07,480 --> 00:58:09,040 subscribing. If you feel like we provided you 1027 00:58:09,040 --> 00:58:12,040 value, tune into the Monday show Simply Bitcoin Live. 1028 00:58:12,040 --> 00:58:15,040 We'll be back 12:15 PM Eastern Standard Time, but until then, 1029 00:58:15,280 --> 00:58:16,280 take care everybody. Have it. 1030 00:58:16,280 --> 00:58:17,040 Enjoy your weekend.