1 00:00:06,950 --> 00:00:08,990 Hello everybody. Welcome to another episode of 2 00:00:08,990 --> 00:00:11,870 Simply Bitcoin IRL. I'm very excited for this 3 00:00:11,870 --> 00:00:14,350 episode. Today's special guest is Peter 4 00:00:14,350 --> 00:00:16,350 Dunworth. Looking forward to it. 5 00:00:16,350 --> 00:00:20,190 But before we jump into the show into the interview, I want to 6 00:00:20,190 --> 00:00:23,870 give a very quick shout out to the Bitcoin company that makes 7 00:00:23,870 --> 00:00:26,510 Simply Bitcoin IRL possible. Swan Bitcoin. 8 00:00:26,510 --> 00:00:28,830 It's the best place to build your Bitcoin stack. 9 00:00:28,830 --> 00:00:31,270 It's literally being built by Bitcoiners. 10 00:00:31,270 --> 00:00:34,430 It's for Bitcoiners. They incentivize you to dollar 11 00:00:34,430 --> 00:00:36,670 cost average. They also incentivize you. 12 00:00:36,670 --> 00:00:38,830 They encourage you to take self custody. 13 00:00:39,070 --> 00:00:42,350 If you haven't already done so, check out swan bitcoin.com 14 00:00:42,350 --> 00:00:45,590 today. And if you go to swan.com/simply 15 00:00:45,590 --> 00:00:48,190 and you sign up using that referral link, you'll get, I 16 00:00:48,190 --> 00:00:51,590 think, $10 in Bitcoin for free. That's $10 worth of sass. 17 00:00:51,590 --> 00:00:53,550 That's awesome. Anyways, no more delay. 18 00:00:53,830 --> 00:00:56,150 Let's bring up Peter. Peter, how you doing today? 19 00:00:56,310 --> 00:00:59,680 How? How's the it's it's it's crazy 20 00:00:59,680 --> 00:01:02,840 in Bitcoin land, like every week something different is 21 00:01:02,840 --> 00:01:05,440 happening. It's just, I feel like 22 00:01:05,440 --> 00:01:07,800 everything's happening at 1,000,000 miles an hour. 23 00:01:08,160 --> 00:01:11,080 So where's your head at? How's your experience? 24 00:01:11,240 --> 00:01:13,160 Where are you in the Bitcoin roller coaster? 25 00:01:15,560 --> 00:01:18,800 You know what that such an app description of what it feels 26 00:01:18,800 --> 00:01:22,320 like banging in Bitcoin. So apologies for that going off 27 00:01:22,360 --> 00:01:24,440 in the background, but. You know what? 28 00:01:24,440 --> 00:01:26,920 I I share that sentiment. Things happen so quickly. 29 00:01:26,920 --> 00:01:29,520 There's so much happening. Everything's moving so quickly. 30 00:01:29,520 --> 00:01:32,920 There's, you know, constant feedback, change, updates that 31 00:01:32,920 --> 00:01:36,480 you need to think about. But on on a personal level, 32 00:01:37,280 --> 00:01:39,800 owning Bitcoin gives me a certain Peace of Mind and calm 33 00:01:39,800 --> 00:01:41,720 that, you know, that feels like we're in the middle of a 34 00:01:41,720 --> 00:01:44,600 hurricane financially and socially. 35 00:01:45,000 --> 00:01:48,880 But there's a a great deal of calm and Zen that comes with 36 00:01:49,240 --> 00:01:51,280 owning Bitcoin and being invested in it. 37 00:01:51,280 --> 00:01:54,660 So for me, life is beautiful. Yeah. 38 00:01:54,660 --> 00:01:58,900 And let's talk about that cuz I Opti refers that I think you 39 00:01:58,900 --> 00:02:01,580 were just describing Bitcoin Zen, right. 40 00:02:01,900 --> 00:02:05,340 So Opti calls that Bitcoin Zen. He's popping up in the in the 41 00:02:05,340 --> 00:02:09,580 thing and it's this concept and it's this idea where you see the 42 00:02:09,580 --> 00:02:12,900 world around you kind of disintegrating, right. 43 00:02:12,900 --> 00:02:16,540 You see the late stage Fiat, I would call it right. 44 00:02:17,990 --> 00:02:19,750 Some people describe it as clown world. 45 00:02:20,470 --> 00:02:23,590 I I I think that, you know, if you put the conspiracy theories 46 00:02:23,590 --> 00:02:26,950 aside and all the crazy stuff, I think you're just seeing a world 47 00:02:26,950 --> 00:02:28,830 with misaligned incentives, right. 48 00:02:28,830 --> 00:02:31,790 And it's starting to break apart and I think that you're seeing 49 00:02:31,790 --> 00:02:36,590 the end result of that and it's just very interesting to see. 50 00:02:36,590 --> 00:02:39,070 But at the same time you hit the nail on the head. 51 00:02:39,070 --> 00:02:43,370 We're kind of protected by this Orange Force field of of hope 52 00:02:43,370 --> 00:02:46,290 and peace and prosperity rules without rulers. 53 00:02:46,290 --> 00:02:49,370 And it's just, you know, your energy, your time, your work is 54 00:02:49,370 --> 00:02:51,050 gonna be protected no matter what. 55 00:02:51,730 --> 00:02:53,090 So is that what you're describing? 56 00:02:53,090 --> 00:02:56,690 Is that is that what gives you this Peace of Mind in this world 57 00:02:56,690 --> 00:02:58,650 of chaos? Exactly right. 58 00:02:58,770 --> 00:03:02,130 And it's funny, it takes a long time to get there and there's a 59 00:03:02,130 --> 00:03:05,570 lot of learning to do, a lot of pain to go through in order to 60 00:03:05,570 --> 00:03:08,010 understand that. But if you're here for the long 61 00:03:08,010 --> 00:03:10,570 haul? I'm sure everyone gets to that 62 00:03:10,570 --> 00:03:14,570 point in time that there is a sense of satisfaction and calm 63 00:03:14,570 --> 00:03:17,010 around being heavily invested in Bitcoin. 64 00:03:17,010 --> 00:03:21,610 And one of the things I I talk about is I think Bitcoin's one 65 00:03:21,610 --> 00:03:23,850 of the very well. It's the only thing I think that 66 00:03:23,850 --> 00:03:28,290 has the ability, to your point earlier, to align incentives for 67 00:03:28,290 --> 00:03:31,450 8 billion people. And at the same time, I think 68 00:03:31,450 --> 00:03:35,650 one of the very unique things about Bitcoin is if you look at 69 00:03:35,690 --> 00:03:38,410 human needs and you look at the Maslow's needs hierarchy. 70 00:03:38,750 --> 00:03:42,550 I think Bitcoin is the fastest way for individuals to scale up 71 00:03:42,550 --> 00:03:46,230 that and ironically you know the longer you're in Bitcoin, the 72 00:03:46,630 --> 00:03:49,670 the higher up that scale of Mezzo's needs hierarchy you go 73 00:03:49,670 --> 00:03:53,070 and ultimately the top is self actualization, which is 74 00:03:53,070 --> 00:03:57,710 basically a state of Zen in what OP is describing as Bitcoin Zen. 75 00:03:57,710 --> 00:04:00,790 So ironic that all of those things sort of tie into each 76 00:04:00,790 --> 00:04:04,150 other, but at the same time when you do a lot of work on Bitcoin, 77 00:04:04,150 --> 00:04:07,350 you realize that that's I guess the the primary function of 78 00:04:07,350 --> 00:04:10,560 what's going to. For the end result, and let me 79 00:04:10,560 --> 00:04:13,480 ask you something cuz you said it does take quite a while to 80 00:04:13,480 --> 00:04:18,000 learn and would it be safe to say that it's not necessarily, 81 00:04:18,120 --> 00:04:20,839 it's not just a process of learning, but it's also a 82 00:04:20,839 --> 00:04:23,520 process of unlearning some things. 83 00:04:23,520 --> 00:04:27,800 And the analogy that I always use is this concept of the Fiat 84 00:04:27,800 --> 00:04:30,840 matrix, right? If you spend a lot of time in 85 00:04:30,840 --> 00:04:33,760 the Fiat Matrix, right, referencing the, you know, the 86 00:04:33,760 --> 00:04:38,600 original Matrix movie, Matrix #1, and you know Neo gets woken 87 00:04:38,600 --> 00:04:41,320 up and he kind of freaks out and he's like, whoa, like this isn't 88 00:04:41,320 --> 00:04:43,200 real, you know? And he kind of passes out. 89 00:04:43,600 --> 00:04:46,640 And then the next scene he wakes up and he realizes, holy crap, 90 00:04:46,640 --> 00:04:49,280 like, you know, this thing is real and Morpheus is like 91 00:04:49,280 --> 00:04:51,280 looking above him and he lives looking down. 92 00:04:51,280 --> 00:04:53,520 He says Neo, I have to apologize. 93 00:04:53,840 --> 00:04:57,680 After a certain age, we don't wake people up from the Matrix 94 00:04:57,680 --> 00:04:59,880 because it's too much for their mind to handle. 95 00:05:00,200 --> 00:05:05,570 And I think it's such a proper analogy to to what's going on 96 00:05:05,570 --> 00:05:11,530 because I think a lot of people, the the comfort, the convenience 97 00:05:11,610 --> 00:05:14,610 of outsourcing the personal responsibility of their wealth 98 00:05:14,610 --> 00:05:18,970 to a third party, if you've lived in that world for a long 99 00:05:18,970 --> 00:05:21,970 time, right? This idea of selfcustody, this 100 00:05:21,970 --> 00:05:26,610 idea of a nonstate money, this idea of a money that's not 101 00:05:26,610 --> 00:05:29,930 issued by a central bank, there's no customer support line 102 00:05:30,600 --> 00:05:33,560 in terms of the Overton Window, it's a very radical idea. 103 00:05:33,560 --> 00:05:37,800 It's it's very out there to the vast majority of the world 104 00:05:37,800 --> 00:05:40,360 population. Obviously that's changing, 105 00:05:40,360 --> 00:05:42,400 right? With BlackRock coming in with 106 00:05:42,440 --> 00:05:45,480 amazing companies like Swan, of course, simply we're beating the 107 00:05:45,480 --> 00:05:48,960 battle drum. But you know, there's people 108 00:05:48,960 --> 00:05:51,400 working, there's entrepreneurs and there's bitcoiners that are 109 00:05:51,400 --> 00:05:53,600 working actively to solve this problem. 110 00:05:53,720 --> 00:05:55,880 Break the Bitcoin echo chamber, so to speak. 111 00:05:56,410 --> 00:05:59,530 But what would you say to that? Is this not only a process of 112 00:05:59,530 --> 00:06:02,050 learning, but perhaps unlearning for some people? 113 00:06:03,050 --> 00:06:07,090 I know for me personally it was a process of unlearning like 25 114 00:06:07,090 --> 00:06:10,010 years of traditional finance, education and training, 115 00:06:10,770 --> 00:06:14,930 accounting and finance degree equivalent of a masters in 116 00:06:15,250 --> 00:06:18,210 superannuation which is the equivalent to your 401K pension 117 00:06:18,210 --> 00:06:21,500 system and. You know, I was the prime 118 00:06:21,500 --> 00:06:24,380 example that, you know, there was so many things I had to 119 00:06:24,380 --> 00:06:27,540 unlearn because it fundamentally breaks the mold of, you know, 120 00:06:27,540 --> 00:06:30,420 the traditional education. And you know, education is 121 00:06:30,420 --> 00:06:32,540 basically a process you go through to learn things. 122 00:06:32,540 --> 00:06:35,460 And our financial system is built on the premise that you 123 00:06:35,460 --> 00:06:38,300 know without getting too technical, but we've got 124 00:06:38,300 --> 00:06:41,940 fundamentally a risk free right which is set by the US Federal 125 00:06:41,940 --> 00:06:44,780 Reserve and that dictates basically the risk free right 126 00:06:44,780 --> 00:06:46,700 for the world and then all of our financial models and 127 00:06:46,700 --> 00:06:49,200 structures and. Evaluation and risk metrics are 128 00:06:49,200 --> 00:06:51,000 basically built around that risk free model. 129 00:06:51,120 --> 00:06:54,520 So Bitcoin is a complete paradigm shift. 130 00:06:54,520 --> 00:06:57,160 It turns everything on its head And you know to your point 131 00:06:57,160 --> 00:06:59,280 earlier about, you know, sort of being woken up. 132 00:06:59,280 --> 00:07:01,840 I can tell you the thought of, you know, for most people of 133 00:07:01,840 --> 00:07:04,400 being, you know, completely responsible for all of your net 134 00:07:04,400 --> 00:07:08,280 assets that you hold in Bitcoin in one word would be terrifying 135 00:07:08,280 --> 00:07:11,800 for most people. So this is where you know the 136 00:07:11,800 --> 00:07:14,320 Bitcoin is who are here today, I think are a very unique breed 137 00:07:14,320 --> 00:07:17,290 and that you know they're. They're they're effectively on 138 00:07:17,290 --> 00:07:20,690 the forefront the, you know, their frontier Rangers basically 139 00:07:20,690 --> 00:07:24,770 beating new parts of financial freedom and self autonomy. 140 00:07:24,770 --> 00:07:28,290 So in a word, it's terrifying for the majority of the 141 00:07:28,290 --> 00:07:31,290 population, but I guess part of our job is to highlight the 142 00:07:31,290 --> 00:07:34,810 benefits of being self sovereign and and taking control and 143 00:07:34,810 --> 00:07:38,180 ownership of that and then. On a broader sense, basically 144 00:07:38,180 --> 00:07:41,580 building out products that scale to the rest of the population, 145 00:07:41,580 --> 00:07:44,260 cuz I think we've got such a small percentage of the 146 00:07:44,260 --> 00:07:48,420 population on board now. And this is where there's the 147 00:07:48,420 --> 00:07:51,860 opportunity to basically on both the rest of the 99% of the 148 00:07:51,860 --> 00:07:54,260 population or more that's not in Bitcoin now. 149 00:07:54,900 --> 00:07:57,580 Yeah, 100%. And I kind of want to focus on 150 00:07:57,580 --> 00:08:01,650 that, the the idea that not the idea, but what you were 151 00:08:01,650 --> 00:08:04,570 breaking, what you were bringing up earlier, which is you came 152 00:08:04,570 --> 00:08:06,930 from this traditional financial background. 153 00:08:07,770 --> 00:08:09,850 What made you wake up, so to speak? 154 00:08:09,850 --> 00:08:12,690 What made you realize, okay, there's something wrong here? 155 00:08:13,010 --> 00:08:16,890 And what was it that initially attracted you, attracted you to 156 00:08:16,890 --> 00:08:23,010 an alternative being Bitcoin? Well, 12 years ago I had my 157 00:08:23,010 --> 00:08:27,530 brother tell me that I should buy some Bitcoin and it was $3 158 00:08:27,730 --> 00:08:29,900 and I told him. That would never work. 159 00:08:29,900 --> 00:08:32,140 That's a stupid idea. Government will shut it down. 160 00:08:32,140 --> 00:08:36,419 And you know, you can literally go through the list of, I guess, 161 00:08:36,500 --> 00:08:39,380 objections that most people have before Bitcoin. 162 00:08:39,460 --> 00:08:41,620 And it's a very painful lesson to discuss. 163 00:08:41,620 --> 00:08:44,660 But I like sharing it because it's an opportunity, hopefully 164 00:08:44,660 --> 00:08:48,620 for everyone else to learn from my mistakes in not getting on 165 00:08:48,620 --> 00:08:49,460 board sooner. But. 166 00:08:50,820 --> 00:08:53,580 Michael was very patient with me and educating me. 167 00:08:53,580 --> 00:08:58,540 He ran a Bitcoin exchange in San Francisco from 2013 onwards. 168 00:08:59,060 --> 00:09:03,100 And you know, being so close to him every other day I'd be 169 00:09:03,100 --> 00:09:06,420 calling him, ask him questions as to why, why it won't work and 170 00:09:06,700 --> 00:09:09,580 sort of prodding. And I'm sad to say that I'm a 171 00:09:09,580 --> 00:09:12,260 very slow learner and it took me 5 years to figure out that it 172 00:09:12,260 --> 00:09:14,420 was it's nice to. Well, it was. 173 00:09:14,700 --> 00:09:18,300 It was an investable asset and. But once I understood that it 174 00:09:18,300 --> 00:09:21,060 was an investable asset, then we started talking to clients about 175 00:09:21,060 --> 00:09:23,460 that too. So only in a very modest way, 176 00:09:23,460 --> 00:09:26,180 but because that's all we're allowed to do. 177 00:09:26,180 --> 00:09:29,540 But yeah, it was just a lot of learning and and that's the 178 00:09:29,540 --> 00:09:31,860 problem that, you know, not only did I have to learn about 179 00:09:31,860 --> 00:09:36,340 Bitcoin, but I had to suspend all of the all of the things 180 00:09:36,340 --> 00:09:38,220 that I knew about the traditional finance system in 181 00:09:38,220 --> 00:09:40,060 order to get it. And this is where I think 182 00:09:40,060 --> 00:09:42,850 probably the key. Problem for most people to 183 00:09:42,850 --> 00:09:46,210 understand this is that this is fundamentally a tech innovation, 184 00:09:46,210 --> 00:09:49,530 not a finance innovation. It is a finance innovation, but 185 00:09:49,530 --> 00:09:53,850 it's a tech innovation first. And this is where to give myself 186 00:09:53,850 --> 00:09:57,450 some slack that you know the I I consider the tech guys to be a 187 00:09:57,450 --> 00:09:58,970 lot smarter than the finance guys. 188 00:09:59,490 --> 00:10:02,890 And so the tech guys pick up Bitcoin far faster than the 189 00:10:03,090 --> 00:10:06,130 finance guys. And so this is where I was very 190 00:10:06,130 --> 00:10:10,120 fortunate with my brother. To basically have a, you know, 191 00:10:10,120 --> 00:10:12,640 Michael's very tech oriented, I'm very financed, focused. 192 00:10:13,560 --> 00:10:16,240 I had the great pleasure of basically being able to learn 193 00:10:16,240 --> 00:10:19,080 from him and hear his insights from a technical perspective or 194 00:10:19,080 --> 00:10:20,440 technological perspective. So. 195 00:10:22,480 --> 00:10:28,360 So why doesn't the average? I say average, but maybe that's 196 00:10:28,360 --> 00:10:33,040 a derogatory term, let's say the everyday financial advisor. 197 00:10:33,200 --> 00:10:39,010 I'll give you an example. I grew up with with one of my 198 00:10:39,010 --> 00:10:42,850 friends from high school. We grew up together and he works 199 00:10:42,850 --> 00:10:44,810 in Tradfight. He works for one of the big 200 00:10:44,810 --> 00:10:47,690 firms who works at Goldman and you know he climbed up the 201 00:10:47,690 --> 00:10:49,930 ladder, very successful, very well paid. 202 00:10:50,410 --> 00:10:54,490 But I swear if I bring up the idea to Bitcoin to him, like 203 00:10:54,490 --> 00:10:57,730 it's like he's it's like a, yeah, I'm like putting up garlic 204 00:10:57,730 --> 00:11:01,000 and he's a vampires like, no, like terrible. 205 00:11:01,000 --> 00:11:03,280 And I never forget one of the things that he told me. 206 00:11:03,280 --> 00:11:06,680 He says like people when I told him, you know you get down the 207 00:11:06,720 --> 00:11:08,880 rabbit hole conversations. And one of the things he told 208 00:11:08,880 --> 00:11:11,680 me, I thought I brought up the Federal Reserve. 209 00:11:11,680 --> 00:11:13,160 It went something along those lines. 210 00:11:13,160 --> 00:11:14,440 And I never forget what he told me. 211 00:11:14,440 --> 00:11:17,120 He's like, the people need monetary policy, And I heard him 212 00:11:17,120 --> 00:11:20,800 say them like, whoa, you're totally bought into this thing. 213 00:11:21,000 --> 00:11:24,880 You dictator, you call me you, you call us a cult. 214 00:11:25,000 --> 00:11:29,840 You're in a cult, bro. So it you know that that was 215 00:11:29,840 --> 00:11:32,160 very striking. So my question to you is why do 216 00:11:32,160 --> 00:11:34,920 you believe that most of try, I know it's changing with Black, 217 00:11:35,080 --> 00:11:38,640 with Black Rock and Fidelity and all that stuff, but why do you 218 00:11:38,640 --> 00:11:46,320 believe most financial advisors are just so against this thing 219 00:11:46,320 --> 00:11:48,520 they're they're not comfortable recommending this to their 220 00:11:48,520 --> 00:11:54,000 clients? Look to your friend. 221 00:11:54,000 --> 00:11:55,800 Here's, here's the ironic thing, I think. 222 00:11:59,220 --> 00:12:02,140 The fact that Bitcoin is going to dislocate so many people in 223 00:12:02,140 --> 00:12:05,580 finance should be a clear indication to your friend that 224 00:12:05,700 --> 00:12:09,740 he should heavily invest in it for the fact that his financial 225 00:12:09,740 --> 00:12:13,620 position and standing, his job, his livelihood could be 226 00:12:13,620 --> 00:12:18,820 disrupted dramatically, effectively dislodged from his 227 00:12:18,820 --> 00:12:20,860 position. So just as a hitch, he should 228 00:12:20,860 --> 00:12:24,380 have a lot of Bitcoin to to save him from that eventual fight. 229 00:12:25,220 --> 00:12:27,300 When it comes to financial advisors, I think there are sort 230 00:12:27,300 --> 00:12:30,180 of three things that are difficult for traditional 231 00:12:30,180 --> 00:12:31,860 financial advisors to get their head around. 232 00:12:31,860 --> 00:12:33,540 That takes an enormous amount of work. 233 00:12:34,620 --> 00:12:36,980 Firstly, there is an enormous amount of work to understand 234 00:12:36,980 --> 00:12:39,140 Bitcoin. You know, I I I don't think 100 235 00:12:39,140 --> 00:12:41,180 hours really cuts it. It's, you know, for me it's a 236 00:12:41,180 --> 00:12:44,820 lot closer to 1000, maybe more to to really comprehend what 237 00:12:44,820 --> 00:12:47,140 this thing is and understand it on a deeper level. 238 00:12:48,300 --> 00:12:50,420 I think there's the convergence of tech and finance. 239 00:12:50,420 --> 00:12:53,460 So, you know, because it is fundamentally technology, not 240 00:12:53,460 --> 00:12:56,260 finance, you know? There's a different skill set 241 00:12:56,300 --> 00:13:00,500 that you know, finance guys just don't have technical nows. 242 00:13:01,300 --> 00:13:04,140 The second or third thing is traditional education training 243 00:13:04,140 --> 00:13:09,660 basically in some way, shape or form creates norms that we 244 00:13:09,660 --> 00:13:11,580 accept. So I mentioned briefly the 245 00:13:11,580 --> 00:13:14,020 riskfree rate. A lot of financial modelling, 246 00:13:14,060 --> 00:13:16,380 risk management, the rest of it basically revolves around the 247 00:13:16,380 --> 00:13:19,100 riskfree rate and Bitcoin doesn't have a riskfree rate, 248 00:13:19,500 --> 00:13:22,100 so. How do we, you know, value with 249 00:13:22,100 --> 00:13:23,940 it? How do we value this thing? 250 00:13:24,060 --> 00:13:26,860 You know, if it's not throwing off any cash flows, a lot of the 251 00:13:26,860 --> 00:13:29,420 financial advice will. And you know, investor 252 00:13:30,900 --> 00:13:34,420 investment advisors basically take their lead from Warren 253 00:13:34,420 --> 00:13:36,900 Buffett. And you know, he doesn't invest 254 00:13:36,900 --> 00:13:38,900 in commodities. He has, but he doesn't really 255 00:13:38,900 --> 00:13:40,940 like investing in commodities because there's no way of 256 00:13:40,940 --> 00:13:44,060 valuing those those things other than supply demand. 257 00:13:44,500 --> 00:13:47,860 And they don't have, they don't have cash flows which enable him 258 00:13:47,860 --> 00:13:50,100 to model how valuable that business should be. 259 00:13:50,100 --> 00:13:53,220 So he doesn't invest in those things that don't throw off cash 260 00:13:53,220 --> 00:13:55,500 flows and and Bitcoin doesn't throw off a cash flow. 261 00:13:55,500 --> 00:13:58,820 So to a lot of finance guys, they look at this as a pet rock. 262 00:13:59,100 --> 00:14:00,180 You know, what does this thing do? 263 00:14:00,180 --> 00:14:02,820 It doesn't really do anything. And ironically that's the 264 00:14:02,820 --> 00:14:06,260 feature, not the bug. But finally, and this is 265 00:14:06,260 --> 00:14:09,220 probably the. The biggest reason for a lot of 266 00:14:09,580 --> 00:14:12,740 the investment advisors not advising on this is that you 267 00:14:12,740 --> 00:14:17,580 know their licensees basically don't allow them to advise on 268 00:14:17,580 --> 00:14:20,020 Bitcoin. Now it's not a financial product 269 00:14:20,100 --> 00:14:22,300 across the across the globe. So in the US it's not a 270 00:14:22,300 --> 00:14:24,420 financial product, it's classified as a commodity. 271 00:14:24,940 --> 00:14:26,460 In Australia it's not a financial product. 272 00:14:26,900 --> 00:14:28,820 In the UK it's not a financial product either. 273 00:14:28,820 --> 00:14:32,020 So those licenses and the professional indemnity that 274 00:14:32,020 --> 00:14:36,060 cover them from any malpractice. Basically cover them for 275 00:14:36,060 --> 00:14:38,580 financial products. So if Bitcoin's not classified 276 00:14:38,580 --> 00:14:41,140 as a financial product, it's very difficult for them to 277 00:14:41,140 --> 00:14:46,020 advise, to advise on. So that's probably the three 278 00:14:46,020 --> 00:14:49,220 main reasons I think that the finance world has huge 279 00:14:49,220 --> 00:14:52,780 difficulty advising on it. And this to me is why the, you 280 00:14:52,780 --> 00:14:56,580 know, Larry Fint, the ETF lodgement with BlackRock is such 281 00:14:56,660 --> 00:14:59,260 huge news. This is where it totally 282 00:14:59,260 --> 00:15:01,340 redefines from a from a career perspective. 283 00:15:01,340 --> 00:15:04,300 It's not a career ending move to advise on Bitcoin now. 284 00:15:05,080 --> 00:15:08,760 It also solves the ESG fad because Larry is probably the 285 00:15:08,760 --> 00:15:13,000 major proponent of getting ESG across corporate America and 286 00:15:13,280 --> 00:15:17,640 corporate globally. So there are so many huge things 287 00:15:17,640 --> 00:15:20,320 coming out of that ETF with BlackRock that it basically 288 00:15:20,320 --> 00:15:24,080 makes Bitcoin a safe asset now to advise on. 289 00:15:24,080 --> 00:15:26,280 And this is where you know the next five years is going to 290 00:15:26,280 --> 00:15:28,880 totally redefine that investment advice space. 291 00:15:29,920 --> 00:15:32,280 Gotcha. And what do you think it? 292 00:15:32,280 --> 00:15:36,310 What do you think it will take? What do you what do you think 293 00:15:36,310 --> 00:15:37,870 needs to happen for that to change? 294 00:15:37,870 --> 00:15:40,910 It is it was BlackRock the catalyst is fidelity the 295 00:15:40,910 --> 00:15:43,270 catalyst. Where do you see? 296 00:15:43,390 --> 00:15:44,670 Because this is the way I see it. 297 00:15:44,670 --> 00:15:46,910 Peter, perhaps this is naive with me, right. 298 00:15:46,910 --> 00:15:51,190 I'm thinking they can just sweep this under the rug for so long. 299 00:15:51,190 --> 00:15:54,590 It will get to a point where their own clients are going to 300 00:15:54,590 --> 00:15:58,310 be up in arms and saying look like the fact that you didn't 301 00:15:58,310 --> 00:16:04,200 advise me to put .5 or 1% of My Portfolio in this five years 302 00:16:04,200 --> 00:16:07,640 ago. You cost me a lot of money with 303 00:16:07,640 --> 00:16:13,600 very little downside, right? So what do you see a change in, 304 00:16:13,600 --> 00:16:16,520 in in the winds? Like where do you see this 305 00:16:16,520 --> 00:16:19,040 going? Is there perhaps some influence 306 00:16:19,040 --> 00:16:23,680 from the government that is just like not encouraging this type 307 00:16:23,720 --> 00:16:26,040 of alternative asset as as they would see it? 308 00:16:26,040 --> 00:16:29,880 Of course, we just see it as the only asset, but what's your take 309 00:16:29,880 --> 00:16:32,720 on that? There are just so many moving 310 00:16:32,720 --> 00:16:35,120 parts to that, you know, the government's really are 311 00:16:35,120 --> 00:16:39,120 incentivized not to push this operation choke point 2.0, which 312 00:16:39,120 --> 00:16:41,640 you're experiencing the US we've got something similar in 313 00:16:42,080 --> 00:16:45,200 Australia happening now where they're fundamentally trying to 314 00:16:45,560 --> 00:16:49,080 limit the amount of cash that you can send to exchanges. 315 00:16:50,050 --> 00:16:53,090 Our major bank in Australia who's just limited it to $10,000 316 00:16:53,090 --> 00:16:55,530 a month. So we've got clients who are 317 00:16:55,530 --> 00:16:58,970 literally just moving their their banking to alternative 318 00:16:59,410 --> 00:17:02,810 institutions who don't rate limit how much they can send to 319 00:17:02,810 --> 00:17:07,450 an exchange, which I I think just creates an enormous amount 320 00:17:07,450 --> 00:17:10,329 of angst. And it's kind of like a Strassen 321 00:17:10,329 --> 00:17:13,170 effect that you know, we're going to limit you and how much 322 00:17:13,170 --> 00:17:17,220 you can move out to. You know, buy Bitcoin and we 323 00:17:17,220 --> 00:17:19,300 don't want you to do that. So we'll right limit you, which 324 00:17:19,339 --> 00:17:21,540 basically means the banks are going to lose their clients. 325 00:17:21,540 --> 00:17:23,380 They're going to move to institutions who allow them to 326 00:17:23,380 --> 00:17:25,579 do it. And this is where, you know, 327 00:17:25,700 --> 00:17:27,819 basically the Straw's an effect of, you know, what they're 328 00:17:27,819 --> 00:17:30,500 trying to avoid is going to come to fruition and it's probably 329 00:17:30,500 --> 00:17:31,860 going to make this happen faster. 330 00:17:31,860 --> 00:17:36,940 So I think there are just so many moving parts when it comes 331 00:17:36,940 --> 00:17:39,380 to investment advice. There are so many. 332 00:17:41,800 --> 00:17:44,680 So many things that you know, financial advisors, investment 333 00:17:44,680 --> 00:17:46,440 advisors basically have to adhere to. 334 00:17:46,520 --> 00:17:50,720 It's very heavily regulated. So to step outside and and 335 00:17:50,720 --> 00:17:54,320 really advise on anything but what they're allowed to advise 336 00:17:54,320 --> 00:17:58,320 on represents effectively a career ending risk for them And 337 00:17:58,320 --> 00:18:00,440 This is why they haven't done it up until this point. 338 00:18:00,840 --> 00:18:03,760 And and this is where to your point earlier, clients are going 339 00:18:03,760 --> 00:18:06,080 to be really pissed at them because they see this thing 340 00:18:06,080 --> 00:18:08,160 going up and they want to be on board and. 341 00:18:08,500 --> 00:18:10,540 That the limitation is not with the advisor. 342 00:18:10,540 --> 00:18:13,420 It's typically with the licensee who authorizes one of the 343 00:18:13,540 --> 00:18:17,060 available investments. And so there are many advisors 344 00:18:17,060 --> 00:18:21,140 we deal with who would love to advise on Bitcoin, but they're 345 00:18:21,140 --> 00:18:23,860 prohibited from doing so because their license doesn't allow it. 346 00:18:23,860 --> 00:18:27,580 And they're not prepared to potentially risk their, you 347 00:18:27,580 --> 00:18:30,940 know, their income, their livelihood on giving an asset 348 00:18:30,940 --> 00:18:34,220 allocation of even 1 to 2% to Bitcoin. 349 00:18:34,620 --> 00:18:37,540 And I understand the risk of the trade-offs they're taking, but. 350 00:18:37,980 --> 00:18:41,860 From a client perspective, excuse me, it's it's horrible 351 00:18:41,860 --> 00:18:45,460 because a 1 to 2% allocation over the next 10 years I believe 352 00:18:45,460 --> 00:18:48,740 can have life changing benefits to that client and it can 353 00:18:48,740 --> 00:18:51,780 completely redefine their entire wealth. 354 00:18:53,700 --> 00:18:57,260 So for investment advisors to do this, they need to take a career 355 00:18:57,260 --> 00:18:58,980 risk in advising on it at the moment. 356 00:18:58,980 --> 00:19:02,380 And this is where Larry and BlackRock is such a huge thing. 357 00:19:02,500 --> 00:19:06,130 And you know, we. It totally redefines the market 358 00:19:06,130 --> 00:19:08,650 because now there is not a career risk in doing it. 359 00:19:08,970 --> 00:19:12,530 And also from a top down approach because BlackRock is 360 00:19:12,530 --> 00:19:15,530 basically in every licensee, investment advisor across the 361 00:19:15,530 --> 00:19:17,530 globe. Now that they have a product 362 00:19:17,530 --> 00:19:20,690 selling Bitcoin, all of a sudden that's now on the approved 363 00:19:20,690 --> 00:19:23,370 product list for every investment advisor and financial 364 00:19:23,370 --> 00:19:26,330 advisor to sell globally. So now there's no career risk. 365 00:19:26,330 --> 00:19:28,240 So. That can't be understated. 366 00:19:28,240 --> 00:19:31,200 And I think you know across the globe investment advisors maybe 367 00:19:31,200 --> 00:19:34,280 advise on somewhere between 50 and $100 trillion worth of 368 00:19:34,280 --> 00:19:39,560 assets and you know and Okay, so interesting, interesting. 369 00:19:39,720 --> 00:19:43,760 Okay, I have a question for you, a little bit of a change up. 370 00:19:44,520 --> 00:19:49,160 So I had Caitlin Long and Larry Lapard on. 371 00:19:49,160 --> 00:19:52,000 I think it was either last week or the week before and I had 372 00:19:52,360 --> 00:19:56,780 boss and lavish on as well and I asked him about the BlackRock 373 00:19:56,780 --> 00:20:03,220 ETF and to my surprise Caitlin and Lawrence said they're going 374 00:20:03,220 --> 00:20:07,060 to rehypothecate, they're going to create paper Bitcoin lavish. 375 00:20:07,060 --> 00:20:09,140 And Foss said no, that's impossible. 376 00:20:09,460 --> 00:20:11,100 That's the whole point of an ETF. 377 00:20:11,260 --> 00:20:14,740 You can withdraw it to spot ETF. So you know, and there's like a 378 00:20:14,900 --> 00:20:18,700 a bit of a debate there, which I thought was fascinating. 379 00:20:19,200 --> 00:20:22,920 What's your take is BlackRock going to rehypothecate Bitcoin 380 00:20:22,920 --> 00:20:25,320 Peter or do you believe in the whole. 381 00:20:25,720 --> 00:20:29,200 I come from the you know a I'm I'm a millennial. 382 00:20:29,240 --> 00:20:32,200 I've I've we've gotten my generation just got screwed with 383 00:20:32,200 --> 00:20:35,120 the money printing. So forgive me if I'm paranoid 384 00:20:35,280 --> 00:20:38,920 when BlackRock out of all places, you know out of all any 385 00:20:38,920 --> 00:20:41,720 institutions it's just you know the public perception of this 386 00:20:41,720 --> 00:20:45,200 place of this financial is evil. You know ESG like what are they 387 00:20:45,200 --> 00:20:47,160 doing? They, they own the world. 388 00:20:47,560 --> 00:20:48,640 So like, I'm a little bit paranoid. 389 00:20:48,640 --> 00:20:50,600 I'm like, yeah, they're gonna definitely do the whole paper 390 00:20:50,600 --> 00:20:52,800 Bitcoin thing. So, you know, as a financial 391 00:20:52,800 --> 00:20:55,720 advisor, someone who comes from that world, what's your take on 392 00:20:55,720 --> 00:21:00,760 that? You know what one of my sort of 393 00:21:01,720 --> 00:21:04,400 standards for determining what will happen and what won't 394 00:21:04,400 --> 00:21:07,000 happen is show me the incentive. I'll show you the outcome. 395 00:21:07,720 --> 00:21:10,080 Are they incentive us to rehypothecate? 396 00:21:11,720 --> 00:21:15,120 Absolutely. You know, on the balance of 397 00:21:15,120 --> 00:21:17,080 probabilities then we can assume that they're going to 398 00:21:17,080 --> 00:21:20,120 rehypothecate. Now, one thing that I think is 399 00:21:20,120 --> 00:21:25,720 going to become critically clear to them is that if they do do 400 00:21:25,720 --> 00:21:27,880 that, they are going to risk catastrophic failure. 401 00:21:28,400 --> 00:21:30,800 And we only need to look back, you know, over the last 12 402 00:21:30,800 --> 00:21:34,520 months to see what sort of carnage happened in basically 403 00:21:34,520 --> 00:21:37,520 the Bitcoin slash crypto markets for people who want to 404 00:21:37,520 --> 00:21:41,760 rehypothecate. You know, we saw effectively 405 00:21:41,760 --> 00:21:45,120 Terra Lunar blow up, we saw. Now Genesis blow up block 5, 406 00:21:45,120 --> 00:21:48,360 blow up Celsius, blow up like, I mean the list goes on. 407 00:21:48,360 --> 00:21:51,520 If the X blow up like it, it represents A catastrophic 408 00:21:51,520 --> 00:21:52,640 failure. And this is where their risk 409 00:21:52,640 --> 00:21:57,360 management team I think needs to really understand the level of 410 00:21:57,760 --> 00:22:01,520 catastrophic failure that this digital bearer asset can 411 00:22:01,520 --> 00:22:04,400 inflict. And this is where I think they 412 00:22:04,400 --> 00:22:07,000 will approach this very differently if they've got any 413 00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:09,880 study in this space at all. Personally, I wouldn't be 414 00:22:09,880 --> 00:22:13,670 rehypothecating because it is. Although the short term gains 415 00:22:13,670 --> 00:22:18,950 may be appealing and lucrative, the long term gain basically 416 00:22:19,030 --> 00:22:21,070 only ends one way. It ends in tears. 417 00:22:21,150 --> 00:22:24,470 And this is where, from a personal point of view, I hope 418 00:22:26,270 --> 00:22:29,150 BlackRock doesn't rehypothecate because it could lead to a 419 00:22:29,190 --> 00:22:31,350 catastrophic failure across the markets. 420 00:22:31,350 --> 00:22:35,350 And this is where for me I. I would like to think that 421 00:22:35,350 --> 00:22:37,790 they're better than that and they won't rehypothecate, but 422 00:22:37,950 --> 00:22:40,230 the incentives are that they can, you know, make a few more 423 00:22:40,230 --> 00:22:43,710 basis points by rehypothecating. So there's probably a backdoor 424 00:22:43,710 --> 00:22:47,390 in that ETF application that will that they will justify 425 00:22:47,390 --> 00:22:51,670 basically being able to do that. However, if they do do that, 426 00:22:51,830 --> 00:22:55,350 they need to be prepared that that rehypothecation of the 427 00:22:55,350 --> 00:22:58,150 Bitcoin ETF could blow up their entire business. 428 00:22:58,310 --> 00:23:00,310 And I don't know if that's a risk they're willing to take, 429 00:23:00,310 --> 00:23:02,650 so. That's a great question, to be 430 00:23:02,650 --> 00:23:04,970 in the middle of those two and to sit on the fence right 431 00:23:04,970 --> 00:23:07,010 between those two groups of powerhouses. 432 00:23:07,570 --> 00:23:11,850 I would like to. I was just observing and I. 433 00:23:12,170 --> 00:23:15,570 Tap dance through the middle of those two, I had the privilege 434 00:23:15,610 --> 00:23:19,130 of being able to. I was able to host a debate on 435 00:23:19,130 --> 00:23:22,090 the Swan channel and I and I put them together and I said Foss 436 00:23:22,090 --> 00:23:23,210 and Lawrence, like, what do you think? 437 00:23:23,210 --> 00:23:26,050 And they're like, you know, they had their different perspectives 438 00:23:26,050 --> 00:23:28,770 and and whatnot. It was just it was a fascinating 439 00:23:28,770 --> 00:23:32,130 conversation but I completely agree with you, right. 440 00:23:32,130 --> 00:23:35,570 It it's, you know show me the incentives and that's the out 441 00:23:35,650 --> 00:23:38,010 and I completely agree. I just you know, they're 442 00:23:38,010 --> 00:23:41,250 incentivized to do it. But perhaps you know for people 443 00:23:41,250 --> 00:23:45,210 in the audience that are are not well versed in this, why would 444 00:23:45,210 --> 00:23:49,330 it lead to like because we know for example in the gold market a 445 00:23:49,330 --> 00:23:51,930 lot of rehypothecation takes place but that's because of the 446 00:23:51,930 --> 00:23:55,050 physical properties of gold and how difficult it is to take self 447 00:23:55,050 --> 00:23:57,490 custody of it. Could you explain a little bit 448 00:23:58,500 --> 00:24:02,140 why it's so different in Bitcoin, Why it would lead to a 449 00:24:02,980 --> 00:24:06,500 potential blow up? What is it about Bitcoin that 450 00:24:06,780 --> 00:24:11,940 makes rehypothecation a lot more riskier than doing it with 451 00:24:11,940 --> 00:24:15,580 something like gold? That's a great question. 452 00:24:15,580 --> 00:24:19,980 There's a lot to that. So the problem for BlackRock to 453 00:24:19,980 --> 00:24:23,420 do rehypothecation is firstly they don't control the market. 454 00:24:23,770 --> 00:24:27,130 So the majority of Bitcoin sits off exchanges, so there's no 455 00:24:27,130 --> 00:24:30,210 centralized point of failure. There's no centralized housing 456 00:24:30,210 --> 00:24:32,490 of Bitcoin. It's completely decent. 457 00:24:32,490 --> 00:24:35,250 Well, it's not completely decentralized, but the majority 458 00:24:35,250 --> 00:24:38,490 of the bitcoins available right now are basically distributed 459 00:24:38,490 --> 00:24:41,780 across. Multiple, multiple people or 460 00:24:41,780 --> 00:24:44,620 institutions that basically self custody that Bitcoin. 461 00:24:44,620 --> 00:24:47,300 So I think and this is just plucking numbers out of the 462 00:24:47,300 --> 00:24:50,300 year, but let's just say it's roughly 14 or 15 million out of 463 00:24:50,300 --> 00:24:52,740 a total of 21 million. So you you're looking at roughly 464 00:24:52,740 --> 00:24:59,140 75% of 75% of all Bitcoin available sitting in self 465 00:24:59,140 --> 00:25:02,500 custody. Now, if that's the case, that's 466 00:25:02,500 --> 00:25:04,700 not the case in gold. Basically all gold. 467 00:25:04,700 --> 00:25:06,940 Well, the majority of gold is basically sitting in central 468 00:25:06,940 --> 00:25:09,600 repositories. And you can basically do 469 00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:12,400 whatever you want to that because there's no one, there's 470 00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:17,560 no way to assess the Ledger that that gold in those central 471 00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:20,640 positives has. And and this is the difference 472 00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:24,240 between Bitcoin and gold is that everyone on earth who has an 473 00:25:24,240 --> 00:25:28,520 Internet connection can verify the basically the total number 474 00:25:28,520 --> 00:25:31,160 of Bitcoin and they can verify that they're holding their own 475 00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:34,430 Bitcoin and so. That is totally verifiable. 476 00:25:34,430 --> 00:25:37,070 Whereas with gold, there is absolutely no way of firstly 477 00:25:37,070 --> 00:25:41,110 verifying how much there is, who's got what and whether or 478 00:25:41,110 --> 00:25:43,590 not the gold you're holding is actually real gold or it's just 479 00:25:43,590 --> 00:25:47,510 a tungsten bar covering gold. Now Chinese banks basically 480 00:25:47,510 --> 00:25:49,870 discovered the hard way by someone basically wrapping 481 00:25:49,870 --> 00:25:52,950 tungsten in gold and getting a four billion loan against it. 482 00:25:52,950 --> 00:25:56,230 I think back in 2019 that you know this, it's very difficult 483 00:25:56,230 --> 00:25:58,510 to verify if you're actually holding gold or if you've just 484 00:25:58,510 --> 00:26:01,630 got tungsten. So for that reason. 485 00:26:02,590 --> 00:26:05,670 And understanding the dynamics of the gold market, gold is very 486 00:26:05,750 --> 00:26:08,790 easily rehypothecated because it's so opaque and there's no 487 00:26:08,790 --> 00:26:14,830 real accounting or verifiability to it on many levels. 488 00:26:15,550 --> 00:26:17,910 Compare that. The juxtaposition to Bitcoin is 489 00:26:17,910 --> 00:26:20,550 that you can verify absolutely everything happening on the 490 00:26:20,550 --> 00:26:23,150 network at any point in time. And this is where I call 491 00:26:23,150 --> 00:26:25,230 Bitcoin. Basically, it's triple entry 492 00:26:25,230 --> 00:26:27,110 accounting. It's an upgrade on our double 493 00:26:27,110 --> 00:26:31,470 entry system because it's triple entry Ledger because anyone with 494 00:26:31,630 --> 00:26:33,930 a node. Can basically assess everything 495 00:26:33,930 --> 00:26:36,210 that's happening on the network and that has ever happened on 496 00:26:36,210 --> 00:26:38,010 the network up until that point in time. 497 00:26:38,410 --> 00:26:42,130 So it's a very unique technology that is something that we 498 00:26:42,130 --> 00:26:46,090 haven't seen before and this is what makes Bitcoin far more 499 00:26:47,210 --> 00:26:49,650 resilient to rehypothecation and. 500 00:26:51,650 --> 00:26:54,770 The want of a better term fuckery in price discovery 501 00:26:54,770 --> 00:26:56,890 markets. So this is where BlackRock is 502 00:26:56,890 --> 00:27:00,810 gonna have a huge problem when they understand the backfill to 503 00:27:00,970 --> 00:27:04,930 Bitcoin and the benefits that it has in able to manipulate and 504 00:27:04,930 --> 00:27:07,410 rehypothecate the markets. Because it's not like the gold 505 00:27:07,410 --> 00:27:09,370 markets. It's a completely different 506 00:27:09,370 --> 00:27:11,410 based gotcha. Yeah, no. 507 00:27:11,410 --> 00:27:15,170 And I completely agree with you. And the question is though, 508 00:27:15,250 --> 00:27:17,490 right, is are they aware of that? 509 00:27:17,610 --> 00:27:21,840 Are there executives? Aware that that that to me is a 510 00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:24,160 is an interesting question. Are they aware that there's no 511 00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:25,400 bailouts here? Right. 512 00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:27,760 That's that's the $1,000,000 question. 513 00:27:27,880 --> 00:27:31,200 I really hope they have smart people working with them because 514 00:27:31,520 --> 00:27:34,080 it is going to cause carnage if they don't. 515 00:27:34,360 --> 00:27:37,400 So let's let's just play this out there sort of two examples. 516 00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:41,840 They take the moral High Road. They do everything that we don't 517 00:27:41,840 --> 00:27:43,880 expect them to do. They don't rehop applicate. 518 00:27:43,880 --> 00:27:46,240 They just have a great business running an ETF on Bitcoin. 519 00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:48,960 You know that can that's probably the best outcome that 520 00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:51,060 we can. You know, see, over the next 5 521 00:27:51,060 --> 00:27:54,780 or 10 years, I expect they'll basically take probably 522 00:27:54,780 --> 00:27:57,940 somewhere between 6:00 and 700,000 bitcoins into their ETF 523 00:27:57,940 --> 00:27:59,460 and they'll become the largest ETF. 524 00:27:59,460 --> 00:28:03,380 They'll outsize grayscale, you know, basically that'll take, 525 00:28:03,660 --> 00:28:07,060 you know, bitcoins on exchange from 2,000,000 to 1.3, give or 526 00:28:07,060 --> 00:28:09,340 take. That's the best case scenario. 527 00:28:09,820 --> 00:28:11,820 In a worst case scenario, they've got stupid people 528 00:28:11,820 --> 00:28:14,420 working for them who think they can basically pick up pennies in 529 00:28:14,420 --> 00:28:17,500 front of a steamroller and make a few more basis points by 530 00:28:17,500 --> 00:28:22,190 rehypothecating that Bitcoin. And I'm just wondering if Larry 531 00:28:22,190 --> 00:28:25,870 is smart enough to figure out, to figure out whether or not 532 00:28:25,990 --> 00:28:28,270 these few basis points that they're going to make is going 533 00:28:28,270 --> 00:28:31,630 to be worthwhile, a total catastrophic failure of the 534 00:28:31,630 --> 00:28:34,310 business. And this is where I really hope 535 00:28:34,310 --> 00:28:37,470 that, you know, Larry seeks out the advice and guidance of 536 00:28:37,470 --> 00:28:40,070 Michael Saylor because I think he's, you know, one of our best 537 00:28:40,070 --> 00:28:42,870 risk managers and understands this better than just about 538 00:28:42,870 --> 00:28:44,870 anyone in the space from a financial perspective. 539 00:28:44,870 --> 00:28:47,430 And the convergence of the stock market and the risks that 540 00:28:47,430 --> 00:28:51,530 happened from a corporate level. In holding Bitcoin, so fingers 541 00:28:51,530 --> 00:28:54,130 crossed, Larry basically listens to some smart people and says, 542 00:28:54,170 --> 00:28:55,370 look, the pennies aren't worth it. 543 00:28:55,490 --> 00:28:59,290 So yeah, yeah. And then it kind of reminds me, 544 00:28:59,290 --> 00:29:03,530 like on a smaller scale, right, People, unfortunately, you know, 545 00:29:03,530 --> 00:29:06,290 everyone wants more Bitcoin, but the people who are chasing the 546 00:29:06,290 --> 00:29:09,330 two or 3% yield on those products. 547 00:29:09,330 --> 00:29:13,210 And then it's like what Bitcoin was returning historically 250% 548 00:29:13,610 --> 00:29:16,410 next 10 years. You know on the conservative end 549 00:29:16,410 --> 00:29:21,500 it's like 50% every year. You know, if you kind of zoom 550 00:29:21,500 --> 00:29:26,740 out so you know you're chasing 3 to 4% and then giving up custody 551 00:29:26,740 --> 00:29:29,460 of your coins in the process. I kind of see it the same way, 552 00:29:29,460 --> 00:29:31,500 right. It's like you're just those 553 00:29:31,500 --> 00:29:34,700 percentage points but this thing is is crazy anyhow. 554 00:29:34,940 --> 00:29:39,380 So I kind of wanted to ask you this before I move on to I think 555 00:29:39,380 --> 00:29:42,580 the big question, what I'm looking forward to cuz I heard 556 00:29:42,580 --> 00:29:45,500 Dell talk to me about this for the longest time and I just I 557 00:29:45,500 --> 00:29:49,800 want to hear from you directly. But before I get there I wanted 558 00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:54,400 to ask you about so the bull market of 2021-2022, a lot of 559 00:29:54,400 --> 00:29:56,720 people were expecting 100K Bitcoin. 560 00:29:56,800 --> 00:30:01,600 I was I myself was in that camp. I have my own theories more so 561 00:30:01,600 --> 00:30:04,320 rather than FTX selling paper Bitcoin and all that I really 562 00:30:04,320 --> 00:30:09,240 believe that the the China mining ban played a huge role in 563 00:30:09,360 --> 00:30:13,400 kind of really taking the momentum out of the market. 564 00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:17,800 I've I've brought this up many times On the show you look at 565 00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:20,240 the hash rate and the price is directly correlated. 566 00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:22,520 The hash rate falls, price falls. 567 00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:25,120 Obviously those miners have to sell Bitcoin in order to 568 00:30:25,280 --> 00:30:27,880 physically relocate to other friendlier jurisdictions. 569 00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:31,440 Most of them relocated to Texas. So I want to get your take. 570 00:30:31,720 --> 00:30:34,320 Were you on the camp were you expecting 100K Bitcoin in 571 00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:39,800 2021-2022 And if you were you know what Why do you think we 572 00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:42,200 didn't hit that that that that price target? 573 00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:45,080 I I, I truly believe it was meant to hit 100K. 574 00:30:45,280 --> 00:30:51,050 I I think that we got a, we got a a neutered bull market in in 575 00:30:51,130 --> 00:30:54,530 in my beliefs. I couldn't agree more with you 576 00:30:54,570 --> 00:30:57,290 on that. I think we were ripped off and I 577 00:30:57,290 --> 00:31:00,890 think there were a lot of, there was a lot of foul play at at 578 00:31:00,890 --> 00:31:03,850 hand. I think the, you know, the first 579 00:31:04,090 --> 00:31:08,770 sort of, I guess stumble in that bull market was, you know, China 580 00:31:08,770 --> 00:31:11,450 banning Bitcoin mining. And, you know, I couldn't just 581 00:31:11,450 --> 00:31:14,170 help but, you know, think back to the 2017. 582 00:31:15,370 --> 00:31:19,690 South Park, China ban Bitcoin main That is one of my all time 583 00:31:19,690 --> 00:31:21,570 favorites. I'm like, oh shit, this again, 584 00:31:21,570 --> 00:31:23,610 right. OK oh, they're banning China's 585 00:31:23,610 --> 00:31:25,450 banning Bitcoin mining. Oh, OK, right. 586 00:31:25,450 --> 00:31:28,170 Like this is just what they've said it so many times. 587 00:31:28,170 --> 00:31:30,960 It's. It's a yawn fest, but it was 588 00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:33,480 actually a big deal, You know, basically the network hash rate 589 00:31:33,480 --> 00:31:37,200 went from 183 down to 84 hexa hashes in the space of two or 590 00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:40,000 three weeks, which you know, in any other network would have 591 00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:42,360 been a catastrophic failure. But what happened with Bitcoin? 592 00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:45,000 Basically blocks went from taking two weeks to three weeks, 593 00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:47,840 and within three months we'd basically solved through that 594 00:31:47,840 --> 00:31:50,680 problem and. What was, you know, a huge bonus 595 00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:53,880 I think on the side of things is that that basically reduced the 596 00:31:54,360 --> 00:31:56,520 the concern around a 51% attack to make. 597 00:31:56,520 --> 00:32:00,040 We basically had a 51% attack where 51% of the network or more 598 00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:02,800 basically shut down and had to be relocated. 599 00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:05,520 And the Bitcoin network basically kept functioning. 600 00:32:05,520 --> 00:32:09,600 It was slow and expensive, but it basically kept functioning. 601 00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:12,640 So that was a huge win. Now when it comes to the price 602 00:32:12,640 --> 00:32:15,880 discovery that I expected to see towards the back end of 21. 603 00:32:17,370 --> 00:32:19,690 I think we were completely ripped off by fraudulent actors 604 00:32:19,690 --> 00:32:26,570 in that space and I put that down to FTXI think is probably 605 00:32:26,570 --> 00:32:29,010 the biggest reason in the marketplace that we didn't 606 00:32:29,010 --> 00:32:32,370 achieve $100,000 Bitcoin. And what what shocks me in light 607 00:32:32,370 --> 00:32:35,650 of what I learned about what happened with FTX is that, you 608 00:32:35,650 --> 00:32:40,090 know we got to 70,000 roughly which is 70% of you know a a 609 00:32:40,530 --> 00:32:44,170 minimum target that I would have expected for that bull run and I 610 00:32:44,170 --> 00:32:47,590 think in light of. What they were doing, So if TX 611 00:32:47,590 --> 00:32:49,750 was one of the biggest exchanges in the world at the time, 612 00:32:50,910 --> 00:32:53,270 someone who does on chain analysis can basically tell me 613 00:32:53,270 --> 00:32:55,750 these numbers. But roughly speaking, they were 614 00:32:55,750 --> 00:32:58,630 responsible for somewhere between 10 and 20% of total 615 00:32:58,630 --> 00:33:01,710 global trade in Bitcoin. And what they were doing was 616 00:33:01,710 --> 00:33:05,390 they were basically selling their clients Bitcoin, storing 617 00:33:05,390 --> 00:33:09,150 it on exchange, lending it out to Alameda immediately, where 618 00:33:09,150 --> 00:33:12,110 Alameda would put that Bitcoin back on the exchange and sell 619 00:33:12,110 --> 00:33:15,430 it, and then go and buy all coins with it now. 620 00:33:15,860 --> 00:33:19,700 That merry go round of the transaction basically has two 621 00:33:19,700 --> 00:33:22,620 effects. Firstly, it is a huge price 622 00:33:22,620 --> 00:33:26,780 suppression for the price of Bitcoin and it's also a huge 623 00:33:26,900 --> 00:33:30,860 outperformance for the altcoins. So at the same time the the 624 00:33:30,860 --> 00:33:33,100 Bitcoin price was being suppressed, the altcoins were 625 00:33:33,100 --> 00:33:36,220 outperforming massively. And this is where when you 626 00:33:36,220 --> 00:33:39,500 understand that price is determined at the margin, if 627 00:33:39,500 --> 00:33:41,620 you've got 10 to 15% of global trade. 628 00:33:42,340 --> 00:33:44,860 Not really trading and effectively being rehypothecated 629 00:33:44,860 --> 00:33:48,180 which is exactly what they did then there's no chance we can 630 00:33:48,180 --> 00:33:50,860 get a parabolic blow off top like we did in 2017. 631 00:33:51,140 --> 00:33:53,900 It just doesn't happen. Like prices determined at the 632 00:33:53,900 --> 00:33:58,420 margin where a 3%, you know, variance can have that parabolic 633 00:33:58,420 --> 00:34:01,620 spike effect. And so when you've got 10 to 20% 634 00:34:01,620 --> 00:34:03,980 of the market being rehypothecated and and not 635 00:34:03,980 --> 00:34:06,860 really being put into cold storage and there's cell 636 00:34:06,860 --> 00:34:10,380 pressure, of that much cell pressure, I I think absolutely 637 00:34:10,380 --> 00:34:12,949 we would have you know. That's my opinion that we would 638 00:34:12,949 --> 00:34:16,270 have hit 100K easily and you know I had a much higher price 639 00:34:16,270 --> 00:34:19,750 target on that that I thought it could have gone parabolic still. 640 00:34:19,750 --> 00:34:23,949 So I'm hoping that you know, what we went through in 21 has 641 00:34:23,989 --> 00:34:25,949 basically cleaned out a lot of bad actors. 642 00:34:26,389 --> 00:34:28,989 I think there's, you know, still a number of question marks 643 00:34:28,989 --> 00:34:32,429 across the industry, but this is where it's so vital that if you 644 00:34:32,429 --> 00:34:37,870 want to see true. Price discovery in Bitcoin, It's 645 00:34:37,870 --> 00:34:41,989 critical that you self custody Bitcoin so that the exchanges 646 00:34:42,110 --> 00:34:45,110 and bad faith actors in the space don't have the opportunity 647 00:34:45,110 --> 00:34:48,790 to to rehypothecate. Do you believe that's possible? 648 00:34:48,790 --> 00:34:55,909 Do you believe that you know it, the everyday individual, the you 649 00:34:55,909 --> 00:35:00,150 know the like just I see it. I see it with my mom like you 650 00:35:00,150 --> 00:35:01,710 know, she my mom's a hardcore Bitcoin. 651 00:35:01,750 --> 00:35:05,900 She's been stacking since 2016. She she has multi sig, 652 00:35:05,900 --> 00:35:09,580 geographically separated as is. Is is cold storage. 653 00:35:09,580 --> 00:35:10,900 Like literally it's cold storage. 654 00:35:11,500 --> 00:35:15,420 However, if I told her, hey, could you send me a Bitcoin 655 00:35:15,420 --> 00:35:18,260 transaction, Mom, she'd be like, I have no idea how to do that 656 00:35:18,700 --> 00:35:21,300 and I'm going to have to be the Uncle Jim in that situation and 657 00:35:21,300 --> 00:35:23,300 then kind of do it for her, right? 658 00:35:23,460 --> 00:35:27,980 So I guess my question is, do you do you see a world where 659 00:35:27,980 --> 00:35:31,060 where people because look if you could take it, if you take care 660 00:35:31,060 --> 00:35:33,300 of a child, if you can open a bank account, right? 661 00:35:33,300 --> 00:35:36,500 If you can send a wire transfer, like you could write down 12 662 00:35:36,500 --> 00:35:38,980 words. But at the same time, we live in 663 00:35:38,980 --> 00:35:41,060 this world of like hyper convenience. 664 00:35:41,060 --> 00:35:43,660 You could just pull up an app on your phone and you can have food 665 00:35:43,660 --> 00:35:47,540 delivered to your door, you can have it someone pick you up, 666 00:35:47,900 --> 00:35:49,460 right? You can order anything and it 667 00:35:49,460 --> 00:35:52,180 will come to your doorstep. So it's this world of hyper 668 00:35:52,180 --> 00:35:55,430 convenience. Do you believe that? 669 00:35:55,830 --> 00:35:58,110 Do you believe that people are gonna be willing to take a 670 00:35:58,110 --> 00:36:02,110 little bit of personal responsibility for the benefits 671 00:36:02,110 --> 00:36:05,670 of financial sovereignty? And that question, Peter, is 672 00:36:05,670 --> 00:36:09,870 something that I've been divided on for a very, very long time. 673 00:36:11,990 --> 00:36:16,390 So what are your thoughts? Many on this topic and this is 674 00:36:16,390 --> 00:36:19,370 where I think for. You know for all of us who are 675 00:36:19,370 --> 00:36:23,050 here now, we I think make up the disagreeable minority of the 676 00:36:23,050 --> 00:36:26,330 point, 1% of the population who's prepared to self custody 677 00:36:26,330 --> 00:36:28,530 their Bitcoin and believes in this from a long term 678 00:36:28,530 --> 00:36:31,570 perspective. So it's a very small niche of 679 00:36:31,570 --> 00:36:37,890 the broader population and this is where I think the solutions 680 00:36:37,890 --> 00:36:41,340 that we're pushing. From the point 1% that's already 681 00:36:41,340 --> 00:36:43,580 here, that not your keys, not your coins, you've got a self 682 00:36:43,580 --> 00:36:47,900 custody is terrifying and unappealing to the 99.9% of the 683 00:36:48,060 --> 00:36:51,780 population who's not here. So I look at the solutions that 684 00:36:51,780 --> 00:36:54,540 are coming down the road and one of the things that we've got 685 00:36:54,540 --> 00:36:59,260 which helps clients get probably 95% of the way there from a 686 00:36:59,380 --> 00:37:03,180 Bitcoin Maxi Puritan perspective is collaborative Custody. 687 00:37:03,700 --> 00:37:06,780 I think collaborative custody has the ability to help. 688 00:37:07,320 --> 00:37:10,400 Say on board the next 10 to 20% of the population. 689 00:37:10,400 --> 00:37:13,240 So we're not going to get all the population, but I think a 690 00:37:13,240 --> 00:37:17,280 collaborative custody with a collaborative custody 691 00:37:17,280 --> 00:37:21,640 arrangement where you've got trusted third parties and I know 692 00:37:21,640 --> 00:37:25,760 that verify, don't don't trust, verify is a critical component 693 00:37:25,760 --> 00:37:29,120 of Bitcoin, full stop. But a lot of people in the world 694 00:37:29,160 --> 00:37:33,160 will feel far more confident in having multiple parties who are 695 00:37:33,160 --> 00:37:37,960 experts in this in this domain. Who they outsource some level of 696 00:37:37,960 --> 00:37:42,000 responsibility to And this is where on a personal perspective, 697 00:37:42,760 --> 00:37:44,280 this is what we deliver to clients. 698 00:37:44,440 --> 00:37:48,320 And so I'm talking my own book and I understand that everyone 699 00:37:48,320 --> 00:37:51,520 on this call, it's really critical that you know I don't 700 00:37:51,840 --> 00:37:54,720 pretend to give investment advice or advice to any Bitcoin 701 00:37:54,720 --> 00:37:56,760 on how they should self custody their Bitcoin. 702 00:37:57,200 --> 00:38:00,000 But I can tell you from a personal level and six or seven 703 00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:02,160 years in this space giving advice to clients that. 704 00:38:02,980 --> 00:38:05,820 Every one of my clients is far happier with a collaborative 705 00:38:05,820 --> 00:38:09,500 custody arrangement because it builds in multiple redundancies 706 00:38:09,820 --> 00:38:13,940 that enables them to completely fuck things up and still not 707 00:38:13,940 --> 00:38:16,700 lose their Bitcoin. And this is where they're not 708 00:38:16,700 --> 00:38:18,940 your keys, not your coins. Fabulous for those who want the 709 00:38:18,940 --> 00:38:21,740 self responsibility and the accountability to have full 710 00:38:21,740 --> 00:38:25,060 control over it, but understanding that most of the 711 00:38:25,060 --> 00:38:28,340 population is not there yet and may never be there, it's 712 00:38:28,340 --> 00:38:31,260 important we have solutions that span the spectrum of. 713 00:38:31,850 --> 00:38:38,410 Custody, So, So I'd like collaborative custody for the 714 00:38:38,410 --> 00:38:40,530 reasons that you said, right, that there's some people that 715 00:38:40,530 --> 00:38:43,410 are just not going to be accustomed to that. 716 00:38:43,410 --> 00:38:48,050 Also in the US, I think there's some laws that if you're I don't 717 00:38:48,050 --> 00:38:50,530 know the specifics of it, but let's say you're managing 718 00:38:50,530 --> 00:38:55,170 someone else's money has to be held in a trust, like it has to 719 00:38:55,170 --> 00:38:58,260 be held in some type of environment. 720 00:38:58,860 --> 00:39:05,300 It can't be held by the financial advisor, by the 721 00:39:05,300 --> 00:39:08,900 person. So it's legally in certain 722 00:39:08,900 --> 00:39:11,580 situations it pushes you to that collaborative custody model. 723 00:39:11,820 --> 00:39:14,140 Now I'm assuming when you mentioned collaborative custody, 724 00:39:14,140 --> 00:39:18,340 you're talking about multi sig between different institutions 725 00:39:18,780 --> 00:39:21,220 but there's only a handful of companies that so there's 726 00:39:21,220 --> 00:39:24,620 Nunchuck, there's Unchained, there's Casa, you know Swan is 727 00:39:24,620 --> 00:39:28,300 about to to roll out their own version really looking forward 728 00:39:28,300 --> 00:39:33,140 to that as well. So so you know like there's 729 00:39:33,900 --> 00:39:36,020 they're amazing products all of them, right. 730 00:39:36,020 --> 00:39:38,260 But there's there's really not that many options at the same 731 00:39:38,260 --> 00:39:41,420 time. But I but I do agree it solves 732 00:39:41,420 --> 00:39:44,140 the major issue because it's it removes the moral hazard like it 733 00:39:44,140 --> 00:39:46,780 that because that's the fundamental issues is the the 734 00:39:46,780 --> 00:39:50,620 moral hazard of of let's say you're Celsius or your FTX, 735 00:39:50,620 --> 00:39:52,140 right. And you're looking at this this 736 00:39:52,140 --> 00:39:55,540 mountain of Bitcoin and you're looking at that and you're like 737 00:39:55,540 --> 00:39:58,940 saying like look I'm just gonna take some of that speculate with 738 00:39:58,940 --> 00:40:00,780 it. I'm gonna make a return for 739 00:40:00,780 --> 00:40:03,220 myself but I'm also gonna make a return for my client. 740 00:40:03,580 --> 00:40:07,260 Everyone wins, but they never incorporate the the bear market 741 00:40:07,260 --> 00:40:09,780 into that, into that equation. Not like that. 742 00:40:10,380 --> 00:40:13,580 So, so I guess that's what you're referring to, correct. 743 00:40:14,100 --> 00:40:16,180 Correct. And this is how like to sort of 744 00:40:16,180 --> 00:40:18,220 explain how the collaborative custody works with us. 745 00:40:18,220 --> 00:40:22,420 We use Unchained, we use Casa, we use Nunchuck and we do that 746 00:40:22,420 --> 00:40:27,740 in collaborative custody where say the software provider being 747 00:40:27,740 --> 00:40:33,140 say Unchained or Casa Nunchuck, they hold a key. 748 00:40:33,380 --> 00:40:35,740 We set up a hardware device for the client for them to hold a 749 00:40:35,740 --> 00:40:38,420 key and it's their account, so they've got full control over it 750 00:40:38,700 --> 00:40:42,580 and then we hold a default key in the event that basically they 751 00:40:42,580 --> 00:40:46,140 lose their key or alternatively something happens, there's 752 00:40:46,140 --> 00:40:49,020 always a way to recover their Bitcoin and move that to an 753 00:40:49,020 --> 00:40:52,550 alternate multi sync provider. So you know we're comfortable 754 00:40:52,550 --> 00:40:54,990 with the trade-offs we've made and I think it's critical to 755 00:40:54,990 --> 00:40:58,670 understand that there's no solutions, only trade-offs and 756 00:40:58,950 --> 00:41:01,830 the level of trade-offs that you need to make to get comfortable 757 00:41:01,830 --> 00:41:03,630 with. I think you know for our clients 758 00:41:03,630 --> 00:41:05,590 they're they're comfortable with that trade off so. 759 00:41:06,070 --> 00:41:08,790 Yeah. And and and I love how you, how 760 00:41:08,790 --> 00:41:11,230 you phrase that, right. Is this idea where, yes, there 761 00:41:11,230 --> 00:41:14,030 is no salute, there's no perfect solution to this, right. 762 00:41:14,030 --> 00:41:16,190 You know, and then this is a very, very deep rabbit hole. 763 00:41:16,190 --> 00:41:18,390 Like I think everyone kind of starts with like a Ledger or 764 00:41:18,390 --> 00:41:21,110 treasure. The 24 words and you had a 25th 765 00:41:21,110 --> 00:41:23,270 word and you're like, wait a second, how do I trust the 766 00:41:23,270 --> 00:41:25,150 random number generator on this Ledger? 767 00:41:25,710 --> 00:41:30,470 Let me just roll some dice. Let me cut up all the 2000 768 00:41:30,470 --> 00:41:32,390 words. Put it in the hat, mix it, fix 769 00:41:32,390 --> 00:41:35,110 it up. And pick the words myself and 770 00:41:35,110 --> 00:41:37,790 create my own entropy, right. So we all kind of go down that 771 00:41:37,790 --> 00:41:39,470 rabbit hole. And I agree, like there is no 772 00:41:39,470 --> 00:41:42,590 perfect solution to this, there's just trade off. 773 00:41:42,830 --> 00:41:45,510 But I do agree, I think that Collaborative Custody and Multi 774 00:41:45,510 --> 00:41:47,990 Sig really does solve a lot of these issues. 775 00:41:48,370 --> 00:41:51,170 Anyways, so I'm going to use the last 20 minutes to really talk 776 00:41:51,170 --> 00:41:57,410 about, really talk about Dell and really talk about this, 777 00:41:57,490 --> 00:42:00,890 this, this Bitcoin price prediction which is just 778 00:42:01,050 --> 00:42:06,450 absolutely crazy, this idea of $7 billion per coin. 779 00:42:08,170 --> 00:42:09,770 And let me start off with this, right? 780 00:42:09,770 --> 00:42:12,290 So you had Adam backs famous prediction. 781 00:42:12,290 --> 00:42:14,090 I know, I know, I know. You know what I'm talking about, 782 00:42:14,090 --> 00:42:16,090 which is the $10 million Bitcoin. 783 00:42:16,730 --> 00:42:18,370 Oh yeah, how Finny. How Finny? 784 00:42:18,410 --> 00:42:20,890 Oh, I'm so sorry. How finny I'm bumping the 785 00:42:20,930 --> 00:42:22,810 Bitcoin goes. This could be $10 million. 786 00:42:23,770 --> 00:42:25,810 I'm confusing. I'm confusing the Satoshi's. 787 00:42:25,810 --> 00:42:27,170 I apologize. Yeah. 788 00:42:27,170 --> 00:42:32,730 And then I didn't say that. And then, yeah, so you had Hal 789 00:42:32,730 --> 00:42:37,450 Finny's original prediction of $10 million Bitcoin, and then 790 00:42:37,450 --> 00:42:42,170 you had Adam back prediction of $8,000,000 Bitcoin and then? 791 00:42:44,260 --> 00:42:49,420 I think it was Jesse Mess, Jesse Myers BTC crosus on Twitter. 792 00:42:49,780 --> 00:42:53,220 He had like a $10 million Bitcoin, of which that Medium 793 00:42:53,220 --> 00:42:55,660 article was reposted by Michael Saylor. 794 00:42:55,900 --> 00:42:59,300 So you like, you know, it's like the general consensus in the 795 00:42:59,380 --> 00:43:03,700 Intelligentsia, so to speak, Is this $10 million Bitcoin price 796 00:43:03,700 --> 00:43:05,620 target. You're completely just 797 00:43:05,620 --> 00:43:07,540 destroying that. You're like, no, this $7 798 00:43:07,540 --> 00:43:09,800 billion. So how did you get to that 799 00:43:09,800 --> 00:43:11,960 number? Does hyperinflation need to 800 00:43:11,960 --> 00:43:14,320 happen in order for a $7 billion Bitcoin? 801 00:43:14,760 --> 00:43:18,280 No, it doesn't. And this is where I think, look, 802 00:43:18,800 --> 00:43:20,840 you know, probably the most enlightened of all Bitcoin, as I 803 00:43:20,840 --> 00:43:27,280 feel is Jeff Booth with his, with with his commentary around 804 00:43:27,280 --> 00:43:31,120 it's impossible to value a, you know, a system, a new system 805 00:43:31,120 --> 00:43:32,720 from within the existing paradigm. 806 00:43:32,720 --> 00:43:35,520 And this is where I think he is 100% correct. 807 00:43:36,380 --> 00:43:38,820 Then we have Knut with is everything divided by 21 808 00:43:38,820 --> 00:43:40,580 million, which I think is directionally correct. 809 00:43:40,620 --> 00:43:44,700 And then I'm a very distant third in trying to bridge a gap 810 00:43:44,780 --> 00:43:49,260 and a financial framework slash modeling thought experiment to 811 00:43:49,260 --> 00:43:53,580 get us to bridge the gap to what I think Knut and Jeff Berth talk 812 00:43:53,580 --> 00:43:58,520 about. And this is where the reason for 813 00:43:58,520 --> 00:44:00,880 coming up with that business model, all that framework for 814 00:44:00,880 --> 00:44:03,560 valuing Bitcoin was twofold. Firstly, most people don't 815 00:44:03,560 --> 00:44:06,040 really understand the upside that's left in front of us. 816 00:44:06,160 --> 00:44:08,960 Everyone thinks the returns and the best of Bitcoin is behind 817 00:44:08,960 --> 00:44:11,720 us, but I actually think the best Bitcoin is in front of us. 818 00:44:12,160 --> 00:44:15,560 And if I gave you the option today to buy Bitcoin, if I could 819 00:44:15,560 --> 00:44:18,280 take you back to the year 2009 and buy as much Bitcoin as you 820 00:44:18,280 --> 00:44:20,040 wanted, everyone would fill their boots. 821 00:44:20,560 --> 00:44:24,440 But my point with, you know, building a framework on thinking 822 00:44:24,440 --> 00:44:27,250 about Bitcoin as a billion dollar Bitcoin is twofold. 823 00:44:27,250 --> 00:44:30,130 Firstly, to tell people that today is the day that you can 824 00:44:30,130 --> 00:44:33,490 buy Bitcoin in 2009 and there's more upside in front of us than 825 00:44:33,490 --> 00:44:36,490 behind us. And secondly, as a way to help 826 00:44:36,490 --> 00:44:39,770 people avoid the carnage that comes with investing in 827 00:44:39,770 --> 00:44:42,170 altcoins. Yeah, bitcoins are roller 828 00:44:42,170 --> 00:44:46,410 coaster ride to riches and altcoins are a roller coaster 829 00:44:46,410 --> 00:44:49,850 ride to financial poverty. And this is where if people 830 00:44:49,850 --> 00:44:53,330 understood how much is in front of us with Bitcoin and relative 831 00:44:53,330 --> 00:44:56,330 to everything else and on a risk adjusted basis, they just buy 832 00:44:56,330 --> 00:44:58,690 Bitcoin and we wouldn't have to worry about our coins and the 833 00:44:58,690 --> 00:45:00,570 rest of it, we'd just get on with improving society. 834 00:45:00,570 --> 00:45:03,410 So that's I guess the fundamental premise of why I 835 00:45:03,410 --> 00:45:06,130 talk about a billion dollar Bitcoin is to help shift the 836 00:45:06,130 --> 00:45:08,770 over the window for people to think about Bitcoin could be 837 00:45:08,770 --> 00:45:11,490 billions of dollars and all we need to do is really buy and 838 00:45:11,490 --> 00:45:14,770 save dollar cost average in it to to get to that valuation. 839 00:45:14,770 --> 00:45:19,250 So there are a number of ways to to get to that billion dollar 840 00:45:19,250 --> 00:45:20,890 valuation. The 1st and the most simple 841 00:45:20,890 --> 00:45:23,370 model I think of getting to a billion dollar Bitcoin is 842 00:45:23,370 --> 00:45:26,020 thinking about. Firstly, Bitcoin is the best 843 00:45:26,020 --> 00:45:29,620 form of money that's ever been invented and I'll go into that 844 00:45:29,620 --> 00:45:32,700 in the sort of second framework for thinking about Bitcoin. 845 00:45:32,700 --> 00:45:36,100 But the first framework is really simple in that we've got 846 00:45:36,100 --> 00:45:39,980 $6.3 trillion of global trade on a daily basis that includes the 847 00:45:39,980 --> 00:45:42,380 Forex markets, the rest of it, which is probably a highly 848 00:45:42,380 --> 00:45:44,740 inflated figure, but let's just work with the numbers that you 849 00:45:44,740 --> 00:45:49,300 can Google today. My expectation is, is that once 850 00:45:49,300 --> 00:45:51,900 people realize that Bitcoin is the first money that can't be 851 00:45:51,900 --> 00:45:55,410 inflated or isn't arbitrary, they will want to be paid in 852 00:45:55,410 --> 00:45:57,770 Bitcoin because it's the best form of money ever invented. 853 00:45:58,130 --> 00:46:03,170 And so when you have, excuse me, a functioning credit market with 854 00:46:03,170 --> 00:46:07,010 a stable coin on Bitcoin, people will never have to sell their 855 00:46:07,010 --> 00:46:09,090 Bitcoin. They'll there'll be credit 856 00:46:09,090 --> 00:46:10,970 products that enable them to hold on to it forever. 857 00:46:11,490 --> 00:46:15,210 And this is where I believe daily global trade divided by 858 00:46:15,210 --> 00:46:18,290 the number of bitcoins minted on the day will work out to be 859 00:46:18,290 --> 00:46:21,290 roughly what the price of Bitcoin is on a daily basis. 860 00:46:21,370 --> 00:46:25,830 So if we look at those numbers, we have roughly 6.3 trillion / 861 00:46:25,830 --> 00:46:29,630 900 Bitcoin, and that gets us out to a $7 billion Bitcoin. 862 00:46:30,870 --> 00:46:34,910 But what would that put? So like the total global wealth, 863 00:46:34,910 --> 00:46:37,510 right is like, you know, what is it? 864 00:46:37,510 --> 00:46:41,670 It's like It's like 900 trillion if you include derivatives. 865 00:46:41,670 --> 00:46:44,590 It's like 2 to 300 trillion if you don't. 866 00:46:46,490 --> 00:46:48,250 How? Yeah, I feel like that would. 867 00:46:48,850 --> 00:46:52,530 What is what is above 900 trillion, What a trillion? 868 00:46:52,890 --> 00:46:54,250 It's a quadrillion. Yeah. 869 00:46:55,210 --> 00:46:56,930 And I think 9 quin trillion. So. 870 00:46:56,930 --> 00:47:01,370 So this is where I think there's a big misconception in people 871 00:47:01,370 --> 00:47:03,810 have a myopic view and think, oh, well, there's, let's just 872 00:47:03,810 --> 00:47:06,690 say there's 2.1 quadrillion dollars worth of value in the 873 00:47:06,690 --> 00:47:08,410 world that needs to be accounted for. 874 00:47:10,250 --> 00:47:13,170 That includes derivatives. That includes stocks, bonds, 875 00:47:13,170 --> 00:47:15,570 properties, shares, the whole lot. 876 00:47:15,730 --> 00:47:20,520 So that gives you a very round Number to basically divide 2.1 877 00:47:20,520 --> 00:47:23,840 quadrillion by 21 million and we get to $100 million a coin. 878 00:47:24,600 --> 00:47:26,200 Everyone understands that simply. 879 00:47:26,640 --> 00:47:29,480 And probably where you can add nuance to that is thinking about 880 00:47:29,480 --> 00:47:31,320 the prices determined at the margin. 881 00:47:31,360 --> 00:47:33,160 There's 4,000,000 Bitcoin that are lost. 882 00:47:33,560 --> 00:47:37,560 There's 17 or call it 1514 million in cold storage. 883 00:47:37,560 --> 00:47:40,120 So there's really only two million Bitcoin available for 884 00:47:40,120 --> 00:47:43,130 trade and there's 2.1 quadrillion of value. 885 00:47:43,130 --> 00:47:46,250 So that basically changes the dynamics and moves Bitcoin from 886 00:47:46,250 --> 00:47:47,850 100 million to a billion dollars. 887 00:47:48,890 --> 00:47:51,530 I I think that's an overly simplistic way of thinking about 888 00:47:51,530 --> 00:47:52,810 it. And this is where what's really 889 00:47:52,810 --> 00:47:55,370 important to understand from an economic principle perspective 890 00:47:55,770 --> 00:47:59,770 is that price is determined at the margin and market cap of the 891 00:47:59,770 --> 00:48:03,770 2.1 quadrillion is downstream of how price is determined at the 892 00:48:03,770 --> 00:48:06,090 margin. And So what I see happening is 893 00:48:06,090 --> 00:48:12,090 Bitcoin has the ability to expand the the total value of 894 00:48:12,090 --> 00:48:14,770 assets globally. So we've got 2.1 quadrillion 895 00:48:14,770 --> 00:48:16,930 dollars worth of value in the world right now. 896 00:48:17,610 --> 00:48:20,370 A lot of that's made-up of derivatives and basically 897 00:48:20,370 --> 00:48:23,370 arbitrary ship that you know, we can't really touch, get 898 00:48:23,370 --> 00:48:25,730 products, instruments, credit, collateral, the rest of it. 899 00:48:26,170 --> 00:48:30,010 And this is where Bitcoin I think has the ability to consume 900 00:48:31,650 --> 00:48:34,810 10s if not thousands of quadrillions of dollars worth of 901 00:48:34,810 --> 00:48:38,170 value and store it there. And that's not going to change 902 00:48:38,170 --> 00:48:41,180 how much is available in stocks, bonds, property and the rest of 903 00:48:41,180 --> 00:48:43,620 it, But it's just going to expand the part dramatically 904 00:48:43,620 --> 00:48:48,260 because the market cap of total assets globally are going to be 905 00:48:48,260 --> 00:48:50,940 downstream of the price determined at the margin. 906 00:48:52,460 --> 00:48:55,100 Interesting Okay. Wow. 907 00:48:55,100 --> 00:48:57,100 Okay. That is, that is very, very 908 00:48:57,100 --> 00:48:58,340 interesting. Okay. 909 00:48:59,380 --> 00:49:03,220 So this would all we need to think about conceptually is at 910 00:49:03,220 --> 00:49:06,940 the moment we have half a trillion dollars in the Bitcoin 911 00:49:06,940 --> 00:49:09,610 market right now. And let's just say in round 912 00:49:09,610 --> 00:49:13,690 numbers, the total addressable market is 1000 trillion dollars 913 00:49:13,890 --> 00:49:17,210 or one quadrillion dollars. So we have the ability to 914 00:49:17,330 --> 00:49:22,370 basically expand Bitcoin 2000 times market cap just to reach 915 00:49:22,650 --> 00:49:25,610 what is available now. Gotcha. 916 00:49:26,050 --> 00:49:28,450 Interesting. So it can go up in value 2000 917 00:49:28,450 --> 00:49:31,610 times, but there's nothing stopping Bitcoin going up a 918 00:49:31,610 --> 00:49:36,450 million times from here. And all it does is the π goes 919 00:49:36,450 --> 00:49:40,970 from being, you know, .002 of a percent of the total value of 920 00:49:40,970 --> 00:49:45,450 assets globally to 99.9% of global assets will be stored in 921 00:49:45,450 --> 00:49:49,250 Bitcoin, and then there'll be a little percentage for stocks, 922 00:49:49,250 --> 00:49:53,010 bonds, property. And that little percentage stays 923 00:49:53,010 --> 00:49:59,130 roughly the same numerically. But yeah, okay, but the value of 924 00:49:59,130 --> 00:50:01,090 Bitcoin. We can have millions of 925 00:50:01,090 --> 00:50:04,130 quadrillions of dollars in Bitcoin because everyone will 926 00:50:04,130 --> 00:50:07,730 want to store that their their value in Bitcoin because it's 927 00:50:07,730 --> 00:50:10,410 the best store of value. Not only is it the best store of 928 00:50:10,410 --> 00:50:11,890 value, it's the best made of exchange. 929 00:50:11,890 --> 00:50:14,810 It's the best unit of account. It provides the greatest 930 00:50:14,810 --> 00:50:18,250 optionality for all of us. So why would you buy a house 931 00:50:18,250 --> 00:50:21,610 when you can buy Bitcoin? And this is where Bitcoin can 932 00:50:21,610 --> 00:50:23,650 take on huge amounts of the world's wealth. 933 00:50:23,970 --> 00:50:27,850 It can store 99% of the world's wealth or more, because people 934 00:50:27,850 --> 00:50:31,640 will want the optionality of being able to buy a house, or 935 00:50:31,640 --> 00:50:35,600 buy a boat, or buy a car, or buy education or buy whatever, and 936 00:50:35,600 --> 00:50:38,480 because that's the best asset that's going to appreciate the 937 00:50:38,480 --> 00:50:40,480 fastest. Gotcha. 938 00:50:40,520 --> 00:50:43,480 Interesting, Very interesting. It's the first time I've heard 939 00:50:43,480 --> 00:50:48,840 that a lot to impact there. How long do you believe this 940 00:50:48,840 --> 00:50:50,720 process is gonna take to play out? 941 00:50:51,080 --> 00:50:54,320 Right, so you have ARC Investments predicting? 942 00:50:54,710 --> 00:50:59,270 And other someone commented Nikko's minds it is expanding. 943 00:50:59,270 --> 00:51:03,070 Yes my mind is expanding literally like Bitcoin in the 944 00:51:03,070 --> 00:51:05,190 future it's it's expanding in real time. 945 00:51:06,470 --> 00:51:08,910 So how long is this process going to take to play out? 946 00:51:09,550 --> 00:51:12,550 You have ARC investments, Kathy Wood, bullish prediction 947 00:51:12,550 --> 00:51:18,790 thinking 1.5 million by 20-30. You have, you have you know the 948 00:51:19,150 --> 00:51:22,390 the more conservative prediction, I think it's a 258K. 949 00:51:22,820 --> 00:51:26,180 In the base case is around 700,000 by 20-30. 950 00:51:26,820 --> 00:51:31,140 Then a lot of other intelligent people are also predicting 951 00:51:31,140 --> 00:51:34,540 around a 1,000,000 dollar, 500,000 to $1,000,000 Bitcoin by 952 00:51:34,820 --> 00:51:38,900 by 2030. So but $1,000,000 to $7 billion 953 00:51:39,020 --> 00:51:42,300 very big jump. So is this a multigenerational 954 00:51:42,300 --> 00:51:45,860 thing that's going to play out? Is this going to happen very, 955 00:51:45,860 --> 00:51:48,540 very quickly? And I'll add my own little 956 00:51:48,620 --> 00:51:54,120 opinion on there, I think. With the current U.S. debt and 957 00:51:54,120 --> 00:51:58,200 their expenditures and the interests of which you know they 958 00:51:58,280 --> 00:52:04,280 they owe for that debt, that is not a sustainable model 10/15/20 959 00:52:04,280 --> 00:52:07,080 years from now. So I I really believe 960 00:52:07,080 --> 00:52:13,480 something's going to break to. With all that said, what what's 961 00:52:13,480 --> 00:52:15,080 your take? How, how long is this thing 962 00:52:15,080 --> 00:52:16,920 going to take that? How long is this going to take 963 00:52:16,920 --> 00:52:20,600 to play out? I I I think the US can go on for 964 00:52:20,680 --> 00:52:23,980 a lot longer than we think. So I'm I I never ruled the US 965 00:52:23,980 --> 00:52:28,220 out and I'm rooting for the success of the US Yeah I want 966 00:52:28,220 --> 00:52:29,940 you guys to win. I think you're beacon of hope 967 00:52:29,940 --> 00:52:31,860 for the rest of the world. The rest of the world looks up 968 00:52:31,860 --> 00:52:35,180 to you. Not only is there it's the 969 00:52:35,180 --> 00:52:37,260 number one place that people want to migrate to. 970 00:52:37,260 --> 00:52:39,580 It's the number one place for capital and property rights. 971 00:52:39,860 --> 00:52:44,020 So you know I'm I'm invested in making sure the US wins this but 972 00:52:44,660 --> 00:52:47,340 that that show can go on for a whole lot longer than we could 973 00:52:47,340 --> 00:52:49,900 ever dream of. But what fundamentally happens 974 00:52:49,900 --> 00:52:53,450 when the debt rises there then becomes a collateral problem. 975 00:52:53,890 --> 00:52:56,850 And you know, take a, you know, sort of that discussion that 976 00:52:56,850 --> 00:52:59,250 we've probably all heard about that, you know, nation states 977 00:52:59,250 --> 00:53:03,370 have a problem when they reach 130% debt to GDP levels because 978 00:53:03,370 --> 00:53:04,890 the US is a global reserve currency. 979 00:53:04,890 --> 00:53:07,210 That's meaningless. It's a meaningless metric to 980 00:53:07,210 --> 00:53:09,170 look at. But it's important to think 981 00:53:09,170 --> 00:53:11,770 about how they adjust, you know, and how they can create growth 982 00:53:11,770 --> 00:53:16,370 on the back of it and what happens when we reach those debt 983 00:53:16,370 --> 00:53:19,890 levels across nation States and indebtedness across corporate 984 00:53:19,890 --> 00:53:22,630 and personal as well as governments. 985 00:53:23,430 --> 00:53:25,270 There needs to be a rewriting of the collateral. 986 00:53:25,910 --> 00:53:29,870 Now one thing can happen, you can pay that debt down and take 987 00:53:29,870 --> 00:53:34,350 it from 130 to 20% or you can just inflate the assets. 988 00:53:34,350 --> 00:53:38,870 So you've got effectively a 20% LVR under value ratio or 989 00:53:38,870 --> 00:53:41,310 indebtedness. Now it's far easy to just 990 00:53:41,310 --> 00:53:43,510 inflate the assets than it is to pay the debt back. 991 00:53:44,070 --> 00:53:46,630 So my expectation is, is that Bitcoin's going to be in 992 00:53:46,710 --> 00:53:49,270 beneficiary of the underlying collateral of these debts 993 00:53:49,790 --> 00:53:51,870 basically inflating. That's my bet. 994 00:53:53,030 --> 00:53:54,910 Gotcha. Interesting, Okay. 995 00:53:56,270 --> 00:53:58,910 I do agree. But here's the thing. 996 00:53:58,910 --> 00:54:01,950 Yes, they can get away with it as long as the world's reserve 997 00:54:01,950 --> 00:54:04,030 currency, everyone's holding the US dollar. 998 00:54:04,510 --> 00:54:06,190 How long is that gonna be the case? 999 00:54:06,470 --> 00:54:07,790 Right. You have the whole thing about 1000 00:54:07,790 --> 00:54:10,350 bricks and then. You have, you know, and of 1001 00:54:10,350 --> 00:54:12,470 course this is just like sidelined stuff. 1002 00:54:12,470 --> 00:54:15,750 But clearly China, Russia, you know, a lot of other countries 1003 00:54:15,750 --> 00:54:18,910 are, you know, they feel the injustice of the money printing. 1004 00:54:18,910 --> 00:54:20,670 They're like this is just crazy what they're doing. 1005 00:54:20,670 --> 00:54:25,350 Why are we using these dollars? You know, let me coin a term 1006 00:54:25,350 --> 00:54:27,830 that I think everyone should incorporate, particularly in 1007 00:54:27,830 --> 00:54:30,070 Bitcoin land. It's only abroad if you're not 1008 00:54:30,070 --> 00:54:32,230 in on it. That's why Russia and China are 1009 00:54:32,230 --> 00:54:34,070 shitty. It's because they don't get the 1010 00:54:34,070 --> 00:54:36,890 privilege. So you know what they're not a 1011 00:54:36,890 --> 00:54:39,690 great custodian of global reserve currency and as 1012 00:54:39,690 --> 00:54:42,770 egregious as some of the things are that the US has done and the 1013 00:54:42,770 --> 00:54:44,970 money printing particularly that we've seen over the last three 1014 00:54:44,970 --> 00:54:47,770 years is as distasteful as it is. 1015 00:54:47,770 --> 00:54:50,890 It's you know the US has been the best custodian over the last 1016 00:54:50,890 --> 00:54:53,730 100 years of a global currency. They've they've they've done a 1017 00:54:53,730 --> 00:54:55,410 better job than any other nation state. 1018 00:54:56,050 --> 00:54:59,890 So you know to coin Foss, you know it's the cleanest dirty 1019 00:54:59,890 --> 00:55:02,490 shirt in the pile and it it literally is that. 1020 00:55:02,770 --> 00:55:06,450 So you know this whole bricks, this whole bricks thing. 1021 00:55:06,450 --> 00:55:12,370 I find just, you know, I live in Australia, our major export is 1022 00:55:12,370 --> 00:55:16,450 to China and our largest exporter is BHP day basically 1023 00:55:16,450 --> 00:55:19,650 for the first time in history accepted a contract in China as 1024 00:55:19,650 --> 00:55:22,410 you want. And I'm thinking no one wants 1025 00:55:22,410 --> 00:55:24,330 yuan. Like, if you think the US is 1026 00:55:24,330 --> 00:55:27,030 bad, you know, the Chinese yuan's even worse because 1027 00:55:27,030 --> 00:55:28,270 they're running two sets of books. 1028 00:55:28,270 --> 00:55:30,830 They've got an internal set of books which runs the internal 1029 00:55:30,830 --> 00:55:32,910 money in the country. But if you want to export 1030 00:55:32,910 --> 00:55:35,670 anything, well, you use the, the external books. 1031 00:55:35,750 --> 00:55:38,790 And I'm like, you know, people who are running two sets of book 1032 00:55:38,790 --> 00:55:41,670 are running abroad and China's doing it on a nation state 1033 00:55:41,670 --> 00:55:43,750 level. So I'm like no one's trusting 1034 00:55:43,750 --> 00:55:46,470 that currency. And then Russia, you know, 1035 00:55:48,310 --> 00:55:49,750 they're kind of in a pickle at the moment. 1036 00:55:49,750 --> 00:55:52,350 They're not. Politically, they're persona non 1037 00:55:52,350 --> 00:55:54,870 grata on a global scale at the moment. 1038 00:55:55,240 --> 00:55:57,440 And, you know, no one's taking the Indian rupee. 1039 00:55:57,440 --> 00:55:59,320 And you look at Russia, they're already trying to sell the 1040 00:55:59,320 --> 00:56:00,920 Indian rupee back out of what they've got. 1041 00:56:00,920 --> 00:56:03,920 So, you know, for the foreseeable future, it's the US 1042 00:56:03,920 --> 00:56:06,800 And when you look at actually the bond markets, you know, the 1043 00:56:06,800 --> 00:56:08,600 US is paying five and a half off the bat. 1044 00:56:09,080 --> 00:56:11,720 You know, Europe's paying three, 3 1/2. 1045 00:56:11,920 --> 00:56:13,680 And they've got inflation at 7:00 or 8:00. 1046 00:56:13,680 --> 00:56:16,760 They've got real rates of -, 4%. And the US has got real rates of 1047 00:56:16,760 --> 00:56:19,920 positive, too. You know your currency is golden 1048 00:56:19,920 --> 00:56:22,680 for the foreseeable future. Gotcha. 1049 00:56:22,840 --> 00:56:24,800 Interesting. I love the. 1050 00:56:25,280 --> 00:56:28,960 I love the different thing cuz you hear it from all the macro, 1051 00:56:28,960 --> 00:56:31,560 the macro heavyweights of Bitcoin, Twitter and like the 1052 00:56:31,560 --> 00:56:34,880 dollar, it's over, it's done, it's this, but you know, but 1053 00:56:36,040 --> 00:56:39,040 from your perspective it's like no, no, it's still a long way to 1054 00:56:39,040 --> 00:56:42,400 go anyways. So I kinda wanna go back to this 1055 00:56:42,400 --> 00:56:44,920 and we are getting to the top of the hour and I do wanna be 1056 00:56:44,920 --> 00:56:49,690 respectful of your time. This idea of $1,000,000 Bitcoin 1057 00:56:49,690 --> 00:56:52,610 by 20 Thirty $500,000 Bitcoin by 2030. 1058 00:56:52,610 --> 00:56:55,650 Now, I know that you cannot give financial advice, so this is not 1059 00:56:55,650 --> 00:56:56,930 financial advice. This is just. 1060 00:56:57,420 --> 00:57:01,220 Just, you know, two acquaintances, hopefully one day 1061 00:57:01,220 --> 00:57:05,260 friends talking about the potential price of Bitcoin in 1062 00:57:05,260 --> 00:57:08,180 the future. So do you think, and then my 1063 00:57:08,180 --> 00:57:14,620 followup question to that was the idea of of the $7 billion 1064 00:57:14,620 --> 00:57:18,300 question at the $7 billion Bitcoin, So from $1,000,000 1065 00:57:18,300 --> 00:57:21,740 Bitcoin to $7 billion, that's a that's a huge gap, right? 1066 00:57:21,940 --> 00:57:24,140 So is this a multigenerational thing? 1067 00:57:24,140 --> 00:57:27,760 Is this going to take decades? This is going to play out very, 1068 00:57:27,760 --> 00:57:29,600 very quickly. What's going to happen in your 1069 00:57:29,600 --> 00:57:31,640 opinion? I think it'll play out a lot 1070 00:57:31,640 --> 00:57:34,520 quicker than we we think. You know, we're only one nation 1071 00:57:34,520 --> 00:57:38,160 stayed away from setting a floor of Bitcoin at $1,000,000. 1072 00:57:38,640 --> 00:57:42,720 And this is where, you know, listen to Frost Foss, who I 1073 00:57:42,720 --> 00:57:45,600 consider a friend, even though we haven't spoken so much, but 1074 00:57:45,640 --> 00:57:48,160 I've listened to so much of him. Don't You can make price 1075 00:57:48,160 --> 00:57:51,400 predictions with no time limits or time limits with no price 1076 00:57:51,400 --> 00:57:55,880 predictions to to give you both and you know, just ignore that 1077 00:57:55,880 --> 00:57:57,320 advice because it's fun to speculate. 1078 00:57:57,320 --> 00:58:01,800 I think Bitcoin will be 10 million USA coin by 2030 and I 1079 00:58:01,800 --> 00:58:04,360 think we'll have a billion dollar Bitcoin by 2040 in 1080 00:58:04,360 --> 00:58:08,760 today's terms. So you know, for me personally, 1081 00:58:08,760 --> 00:58:12,440 I think you know they represents huge, huge upside and the risks 1082 00:58:12,440 --> 00:58:14,120 are, you know, completely overstated. 1083 00:58:14,720 --> 00:58:16,600 People confuse risk with volatility. 1084 00:58:17,310 --> 00:58:19,910 Risk is completely different to volatility. 1085 00:58:19,910 --> 00:58:21,670 And yes a little Bitcoin's volatile. 1086 00:58:21,710 --> 00:58:24,750 I I think it's the risk free asset of the of the world right 1087 00:58:24,750 --> 00:58:28,030 now. So I think the asymmetrical 1088 00:58:28,030 --> 00:58:31,510 upside to Bitcoin for the next sort of seven or eight, even 10 1089 00:58:31,510 --> 00:58:36,110 years is a bit that you can't, can't ignore and basically just 1090 00:58:36,110 --> 00:58:38,580 get some. Yeah, just get some. 1091 00:58:38,580 --> 00:58:41,740 Just get some just in case it catches on. 1092 00:58:41,940 --> 00:58:44,420 And I'm glad to hear that. You and Foss. 1093 00:58:44,420 --> 00:58:49,140 Next time we'll put you and Foss together and we'll do a simply 1094 00:58:49,140 --> 00:58:50,900 Bitcoin IRL between the three of us. 1095 00:58:51,180 --> 00:58:52,660 Anyways, Peter, I love that. Thank. 1096 00:58:53,020 --> 00:58:54,700 You, Peter. It's been an absolute honor. 1097 00:58:54,700 --> 00:58:58,020 Thank you so much for joining us today on Simply Bitcoin IRL. 1098 00:58:58,480 --> 00:59:02,200 I put up Peter's handle and his website on the screen guys for 1099 00:59:02,600 --> 00:59:05,400 you guys to check it out. But Peter, in case just for 1100 00:59:05,400 --> 00:59:07,640 audio listeners, why don't you tell everybody where they could 1101 00:59:07,640 --> 00:59:11,720 find you on the interwebs? In the interwebs, well there's a 1102 00:59:11,720 --> 00:59:17,640 website thebitcoinadvisor.com that's advisor with an er My 1103 00:59:17,640 --> 00:59:20,560 handle on Twitter is probably the best place to catch me at 1104 00:59:20,560 --> 00:59:24,640 Peterbtc Advisor and any questions please reach out. 1105 00:59:24,720 --> 00:59:27,920 Love to help you and appreciate your time, Nico and big fan of 1106 00:59:27,920 --> 00:59:29,560 the channel. So thanks for all the hard work 1107 00:59:29,560 --> 00:59:33,720 you do and educating us all. Appreciate you and the Honors 1108 00:59:33,720 --> 00:59:34,680 mine. Thank you Peter. 1109 00:59:34,920 --> 00:59:37,280 Hanging out backstage for a second while I wrap it up guys, 1110 00:59:37,360 --> 00:59:39,720 Thank you so much for tuning in to another episode of Simply 1111 00:59:39,720 --> 00:59:42,440 Bitcoin IRL Special. Shout out to our swan tour. 1112 00:59:42,440 --> 00:59:45,640 Swan to our to the Bitcoin company that powers the show. 1113 00:59:45,800 --> 00:59:48,000 Swan Bitcoin best place to build your Bitcoin stack. 1114 00:59:48,000 --> 00:59:51,000 We'll be back tomorrow. The live show 12:15 PM Eastern 1115 00:59:51,000 --> 00:59:52,400 Standard Time for another episode of. 1116 00:59:52,760 --> 00:59:55,400 Bitcoin Live. We'll be back with an IRL next 1117 00:59:55,400 --> 00:59:57,640 week with a very special guest. I'm sure you guys are going to 1118 00:59:57,640 --> 01:00:00,680 enjoy that, but until then, enjoy your evening. 1119 01:00:00,720 --> 01:00:02,320 Peace out guys, We'll see you tomorrow.