1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:02,880 I call it a perpetual Bitcoin machine, so I literally have the 2 00:00:02,880 --> 00:00:04,240 government buy my Bitcoin for me. 3 00:00:04,920 --> 00:00:07,240 OK, So what does that mean? Go into that please. 4 00:00:07,280 --> 00:00:10,040 The problem is if you're making 100 grand a year and spending 5 00:00:10,200 --> 00:00:12,520 40,000 in taxes, you're trying to live on 60. 6 00:00:12,640 --> 00:00:16,360 You're only stacking sacks. If you do this, you can stack 7 00:00:16,440 --> 00:00:18,920 Bitcoin. I'm connecting the dots on the 8 00:00:18,920 --> 00:00:21,480 show mark. What the wealthy do is they make 9 00:00:21,480 --> 00:00:26,080 income and buy assets, don't pay taxes on that, and then they 10 00:00:26,080 --> 00:00:28,320 have the assets pay for their life. 11 00:00:28,400 --> 00:00:30,880 Are you saying this is a viable strategy for most? 12 00:00:30,880 --> 00:00:33,240 People, everybody could do this and I can break it down for you. 13 00:00:33,400 --> 00:00:34,640 Break it down. So. 14 00:00:35,160 --> 00:00:37,720 Holy cow. Yeah, but as a bitcoiner, I 15 00:00:37,720 --> 00:00:40,960 think that my life should be represented by a block of proof 16 00:00:40,960 --> 00:00:42,760 of work. Why would I want to die with 17 00:00:42,760 --> 00:00:44,760 zero? I should leave the proof of my 18 00:00:44,760 --> 00:00:47,240 work, of my life here. And then why should my kids 19 00:00:47,240 --> 00:00:48,760 start from zero? Why can't they add the next 20 00:00:48,760 --> 00:00:50,280 block? The reason why you have to work 21 00:00:50,280 --> 00:00:52,360 so hard is because your money doesn't. 22 00:00:52,960 --> 00:00:55,480 Most people are willing to go get a side hustle or a second 23 00:00:55,480 --> 00:00:57,400 job, but your money is only going to do one. 24 00:00:57,400 --> 00:01:04,040 No, No, no, no, no. Most Bitcoin conversations stop 25 00:01:04,040 --> 00:01:08,240 at price predictions, macro takes and just huddle. 26 00:01:08,440 --> 00:01:11,120 Today we're going to take a different approach with this 27 00:01:11,120 --> 00:01:13,720 conversation. And of course, I have the one, 28 00:01:13,720 --> 00:01:18,160 the only, the legendary Mark Moss in the Simply Studio with 29 00:01:18,160 --> 00:01:19,880 me today. And we're going to be talking 30 00:01:19,880 --> 00:01:23,440 about all of that, how you should be building a personal 31 00:01:23,440 --> 00:01:27,760 Bitcoin treasury for your life, build liquidity so volatility 32 00:01:27,760 --> 00:01:31,520 never threatens your lifestyle and retire without killing 33 00:01:31,520 --> 00:01:34,200 compounding by selling your Bitcoin Mark. 34 00:01:34,200 --> 00:01:37,040 You've got that line that nails the whole thesis. 35 00:01:37,080 --> 00:01:40,240 Bitcoin isn't the inheritance, the system is. 36 00:01:40,240 --> 00:01:42,920 So let's start right there. First, Mark, welcome to the 37 00:01:42,920 --> 00:01:45,240 Simply Studio. Happy to have you on today 38 00:01:45,240 --> 00:01:47,640 brother. Yeah, Nico, super excited to be 39 00:01:47,640 --> 00:01:49,120 here. I just found out I'm the first 40 00:01:49,120 --> 00:01:52,040 person in the Simply studio, so I'm even more excited about 41 00:01:52,040 --> 00:01:53,240 that. Christen it with you right here. 42 00:01:53,440 --> 00:01:54,800 Always a pleasure sitting down with you, though. 43 00:01:55,520 --> 00:01:57,600 Let's go. Absolutely man. 44 00:01:57,600 --> 00:02:02,320 Dude, I, I Mark gross seeing your presentations and then 45 00:02:02,320 --> 00:02:05,040 seeing your, your, the way that you make content throughout the 46 00:02:05,040 --> 00:02:08,440 years, it's been so inspiring as a content creator. 47 00:02:08,759 --> 00:02:12,680 But I, you, you sent me this, this, this document and I, and I 48 00:02:12,680 --> 00:02:16,400 would, it blew my mind because again, I think bitcoiners are 49 00:02:16,400 --> 00:02:18,960 approaching this completely wrong. 50 00:02:19,080 --> 00:02:24,520 I think they're approaching this incorrectly and that was a major 51 00:02:24,520 --> 00:02:26,480 part of what you're talking about. 52 00:02:26,480 --> 00:02:30,320 And the line here that I love is Bitcoin isn't the inheritance, 53 00:02:30,320 --> 00:02:32,080 the system is. What does that mean? 54 00:02:32,440 --> 00:02:36,800 So the system is a lot of people think that Bitcoin is the end, 55 00:02:37,360 --> 00:02:40,200 just buy Bitcoin and do nothing and it is the cheat code. 56 00:02:40,200 --> 00:02:43,320 So it does allow you to do that. But I think a better way to do 57 00:02:43,320 --> 00:02:45,680 it is to think about building a system around Bitcoin. 58 00:02:46,520 --> 00:02:51,160 And so if that line specifically the inheritance, what I sent you 59 00:02:51,160 --> 00:02:53,960 was an entire thesis from A-Z, how do we start and where do we 60 00:02:53,960 --> 00:02:55,480 end? And we end with the inheritance. 61 00:02:55,480 --> 00:02:59,120 We end with passing that down. A lot of people today and in the 62 00:02:59,120 --> 00:03:01,840 Bitcoin community today think that passing down an inheritance 63 00:03:01,840 --> 00:03:04,760 is a bad thing. I could hurt my kids, damage my 64 00:03:04,760 --> 00:03:05,840 kids. I don't want them. 65 00:03:05,840 --> 00:03:07,600 I want they need to go earn their own way, those types of 66 00:03:07,600 --> 00:03:09,600 things. But as a Bitcoiner, I think that 67 00:03:09,600 --> 00:03:12,960 my life should be represented by a block of proof of work. 68 00:03:13,480 --> 00:03:14,640 Why would I want to die with zero? 69 00:03:14,640 --> 00:03:17,560 I should leave the proof of my work, of my life here. 70 00:03:17,800 --> 00:03:19,320 And then why should my kids start from zero? 71 00:03:19,320 --> 00:03:20,560 Why can't they add the next block? 72 00:03:21,480 --> 00:03:23,960 But the problem is that it's not the money that gets passed down 73 00:03:23,960 --> 00:03:26,200 to the generations that make them bad, right? 74 00:03:26,200 --> 00:03:29,240 Money just amplifies behavior. So rather than passing down 75 00:03:29,240 --> 00:03:32,280 assets that the next generation will probably just sell, I need 76 00:03:32,280 --> 00:03:35,480 to pass down the system that built the asset. 77 00:03:35,800 --> 00:03:39,920 I need to pass down the system that uses the asset to pay for 78 00:03:39,920 --> 00:03:42,440 their life and continues to compound without having to be 79 00:03:42,440 --> 00:03:44,720 sold. I'm not going to sell my Bitcoin 80 00:03:44,760 --> 00:03:46,560 ever. And I don't want my kids, my 81 00:03:46,560 --> 00:03:49,120 great grandkids, or my great great grandkids to sell the 82 00:03:49,120 --> 00:03:51,640 Bitcoin either. So what I want to pass down is 83 00:03:51,640 --> 00:03:53,000 the system that created the Bitcoin. 84 00:03:53,000 --> 00:03:57,200 The system that uses Bitcoin to fund their life, to do all the 85 00:03:57,200 --> 00:03:58,440 things they want to do without selling it. 86 00:03:59,800 --> 00:04:02,640 And let's talk about that for a second, Mark, because again, I 87 00:04:02,640 --> 00:04:06,160 think the mentality of most Bitcoiners, at least my 88 00:04:06,160 --> 00:04:11,280 audience, is accumulate and wait, You're basically saying, 89 00:04:11,280 --> 00:04:13,440 no, no, no, that's not how you do it at all. 90 00:04:13,680 --> 00:04:17,959 You should actually be focusing on cash flow, on generating cash 91 00:04:17,959 --> 00:04:21,839 flow, building that stack, and then using that cash flow to 92 00:04:21,839 --> 00:04:24,680 accumulate more Bitcoin. Why do you think so many 93 00:04:24,680 --> 00:04:28,640 Bitcoiners get it wrong? Well, because everybody gets it 94 00:04:28,640 --> 00:04:31,120 wrong, not just Bitcoiners. Bitcoiners bring the inherent 95 00:04:31,120 --> 00:04:32,200 problems that everybody else has. 96 00:04:32,200 --> 00:04:35,000 So here's a quick reframe for everybody that's going to make 97 00:04:35,000 --> 00:04:36,200 sense. We can talk about Michael 98 00:04:36,200 --> 00:04:38,480 Saylor. Your audience knows Michael 99 00:04:38,480 --> 00:04:40,120 Sayler very well. Now, what Michael Sayler is 100 00:04:40,120 --> 00:04:42,840 doing is what people have been doing for a long period of time. 101 00:04:42,840 --> 00:04:44,880 It's not new, but it is new in the Bitcoin space. 102 00:04:44,880 --> 00:04:46,960 So for example, let's just look at MicroStrategy. 103 00:04:47,600 --> 00:04:50,360 He did, we've probably listened to dozens or hundreds of his 104 00:04:50,360 --> 00:04:52,520 interviews, but he did one with Jordan Peterson that was pretty 105 00:04:52,520 --> 00:04:53,480 good. I'm sure you saw that. 106 00:04:53,880 --> 00:04:57,920 And he said, I, he said, I did 10 trips around the world in a 107 00:04:57,920 --> 00:05:02,000 decade trying to grow MicroStrategy and I couldn't 108 00:05:02,000 --> 00:05:03,600 grow it. I couldn't compete against 109 00:05:03,600 --> 00:05:06,800 Microsoft. I had $500 million of cash, 110 00:05:06,800 --> 00:05:09,360 capital of treasury. But what am I going to do? 111 00:05:09,520 --> 00:05:10,920 Buy another company? Merge. 112 00:05:10,920 --> 00:05:13,920 Nothing I could do could increase my revenue. 113 00:05:13,920 --> 00:05:15,920 OK, so let's take that to a personal level real quick. 114 00:05:16,480 --> 00:05:19,080 So what happens is for most of us, we're trying to earn money. 115 00:05:19,600 --> 00:05:22,120 But what happens is hustle culture tells us we have to work 116 00:05:22,120 --> 00:05:23,800 harder. We have to save harder. 117 00:05:23,800 --> 00:05:25,880 Skip your coffee, work harder, save harder. 118 00:05:25,880 --> 00:05:28,800 Get a side hustle, start a new business, get more skills, do 119 00:05:28,800 --> 00:05:32,000 more sales, work extra hours, work overtime, work harder 120 00:05:32,000 --> 00:05:34,000 trying to make more revenue. That's what Sailor tried to do. 121 00:05:34,960 --> 00:05:37,280 He couldn't make more revenue. At some point we Max out. 122 00:05:37,280 --> 00:05:39,520 We can only work so long. At some point we Max out. 123 00:05:39,520 --> 00:05:42,080 So what Saylor decided, you know what, instead of trying to grow 124 00:05:42,080 --> 00:05:45,440 more revenue and make micro strategy more profitable by 125 00:05:45,440 --> 00:05:48,720 revenue, instead of that, how about if I change the name of 126 00:05:48,720 --> 00:05:52,200 the company to strategy and instead I build the treasury and 127 00:05:52,200 --> 00:05:56,680 not make more revenue? So he used tool, 2 tools to do 128 00:05:56,680 --> 00:05:59,520 that, which all of us have at our disposal, credit and equity. 129 00:06:00,680 --> 00:06:05,080 And within five years, he took micro strategy from a $3.6 130 00:06:05,080 --> 00:06:09,560 billion company to 50 billion. So he was unable to grow it 131 00:06:10,520 --> 00:06:12,600 chasing revenue. But when he worked on the 132 00:06:12,600 --> 00:06:16,880 treasury, it went from 3 to 50. So us as individuals, we can 133 00:06:16,880 --> 00:06:18,720 only work so hard. I can't increase my revenue, but 134 00:06:18,720 --> 00:06:19,720 that's what everyone tries to do. 135 00:06:19,720 --> 00:06:21,440 I need to work harder, I need to save harder. 136 00:06:21,560 --> 00:06:24,040 But we have assets, we have equity and credit. 137 00:06:24,320 --> 00:06:27,520 And if we want to go from 3 to 50, we can do the same thing if 138 00:06:27,520 --> 00:06:29,760 we focus it that way. Absolutely. 139 00:06:29,760 --> 00:06:32,520 And and again, I I think it's really interesting, Mark. 140 00:06:32,520 --> 00:06:36,560 And why do you think that it was so difficult for a sailor to 141 00:06:36,560 --> 00:06:40,160 break free? Because essentially you had a 20 142 00:06:40,160 --> 00:06:43,360 years of him going sideways. Credit to him for 143 00:06:43,360 --> 00:06:48,000 survivingthe.com crash, right, But 20 years and I remember in 144 00:06:48,000 --> 00:06:50,560 so many of his interviews, he's basically look, I tried 145 00:06:50,640 --> 00:06:53,400 everything and it just wouldn't work. 146 00:06:53,480 --> 00:06:56,080 Microsoft just would out compete me. 147 00:06:56,920 --> 00:06:59,400 It seemed like Bitcoin was really his breakthrough. 148 00:06:59,560 --> 00:07:02,160 And then one of the things that I remember in the Danny Knowles 149 00:07:02,160 --> 00:07:05,760 podcast that went pretty viral the other day, he kept saying 150 00:07:05,760 --> 00:07:09,000 he's like, look, like if you're a struggling company or if you 151 00:07:09,000 --> 00:07:11,880 just kind of want to get ahead and, and you don't have a 152 00:07:11,880 --> 00:07:15,400 monopoly, this is a way for you to be competitive. 153 00:07:15,680 --> 00:07:19,520 Right. I think what people miss, and I 154 00:07:19,520 --> 00:07:23,480 just recorded with Danny, we went into that and I gave him a 155 00:07:23,480 --> 00:07:26,760 more layman's term to try to answer the questions that he was 156 00:07:26,760 --> 00:07:28,120 trying to get from Sailor but couldn't. 157 00:07:28,360 --> 00:07:30,160 So I gave him layman terms that I think made more sense. 158 00:07:30,160 --> 00:07:31,880 Sailor just talks it out at a higher level. 159 00:07:31,880 --> 00:07:33,880 But anyway, back to the answer to that question. 160 00:07:34,280 --> 00:07:36,840 The problem that we have, and you know this because you study 161 00:07:36,840 --> 00:07:40,520 this, but the Fiat system is stealing from us, right, by 162 00:07:40,560 --> 00:07:43,040 inflating the currency. So the problem is, is that the 163 00:07:43,040 --> 00:07:46,120 cost of living is going up faster than your income. 164 00:07:46,880 --> 00:07:49,520 So if you're trying to build wealth with income, you're 165 00:07:49,520 --> 00:07:51,680 always going to be behind because you can't keep up with 166 00:07:51,680 --> 00:07:54,000 the rate. OK, So let's just say with some 167 00:07:54,000 --> 00:07:56,360 numbers, let's say the cost of living is going up at 10% a 168 00:07:56,360 --> 00:07:59,040 year, but your pay is going up by 3 or 4% a year. 169 00:07:59,240 --> 00:08:03,120 So you're falling by them, but your assets are going up by 30% 170 00:08:03,120 --> 00:08:05,200 a year. So the switch that sailors 171 00:08:05,200 --> 00:08:07,800 talking about to become more competitive is like you can't 172 00:08:07,800 --> 00:08:10,320 increase your revenue and profit margins fast enough for the rate 173 00:08:10,320 --> 00:08:13,960 of debasement that's happening. So you need to use an asset that 174 00:08:13,960 --> 00:08:16,280 can outpace that. That's what he's saying. 175 00:08:16,280 --> 00:08:17,920 And so for us individually, we can do the same. 176 00:08:17,920 --> 00:08:19,520 Now again, Bitcoin is a cheat code. 177 00:08:19,680 --> 00:08:22,000 Buy the Bitcoin, wait 10 years. You're going to have plenty of 178 00:08:22,000 --> 00:08:23,120 money. You can sell it off. 179 00:08:23,120 --> 00:08:24,640 You can die with 0, and that works. 180 00:08:24,760 --> 00:08:27,600 But that's terrible. Why would you want to die with 181 00:08:27,600 --> 00:08:29,800 0? Why would you want to live poor? 182 00:08:29,800 --> 00:08:32,400 You know, modern portfolio theory tells you to save up for 183 00:08:32,400 --> 00:08:35,159 40 years, sell 4%. Hopefully you die before you run 184 00:08:35,159 --> 00:08:37,039 out of money. And I just, I think that's a 185 00:08:37,039 --> 00:08:39,520 Fiat mindset. And So what Sailor saying is use 186 00:08:39,520 --> 00:08:42,440 Bitcoin to outpace that inflation and then we can build 187 00:08:42,440 --> 00:08:43,799 wealth and push that value forward. 188 00:08:43,960 --> 00:08:46,800 What do you think is the actual inflation rate Mark 10? 189 00:08:46,800 --> 00:08:52,280 Percent. 10% So even if you just buy, you know, an index fund S&P 190 00:08:52,280 --> 00:08:53,920 5:00 and you're, you're underwater. 191 00:08:53,920 --> 00:08:57,640 So why would I say 10%? So you know, I would look at the 192 00:08:57,720 --> 00:09:01,440 the original and what I consider the real definition of inflation 193 00:09:01,440 --> 00:09:05,320 is the money supply increase. So inflation is always a 194 00:09:05,320 --> 00:09:08,000 monetary phenomenon, right? And so when you think about even 195 00:09:08,000 --> 00:09:11,960 the term of inflation, if I if, what does that word even mean? 196 00:09:12,160 --> 00:09:16,040 So if I inflate a balloon, what does what does that word inflate 197 00:09:16,040 --> 00:09:18,760 mean? I'm increasing the volume of air 198 00:09:18,760 --> 00:09:21,320 in the balloon. So inflation is increasing the 199 00:09:21,320 --> 00:09:23,400 volume of money. That was the original 200 00:09:23,400 --> 00:09:26,000 definition. Around the 1950s, they started 201 00:09:26,000 --> 00:09:29,600 to change that to CPI or consumer price inflation. 202 00:09:30,000 --> 00:09:32,920 And von Mises was very vocal in this period. 203 00:09:33,160 --> 00:09:34,840 And he said, hey, hey, watch what they're doing. 204 00:09:34,960 --> 00:09:37,520 They're trying to change the definition of the word. 205 00:09:37,520 --> 00:09:40,440 And he warned us of that. And the reason why they want to 206 00:09:40,440 --> 00:09:43,800 change it, as he told us, and now we see it today, is because 207 00:09:44,160 --> 00:09:48,160 if we if we tie it to CPI price inflation, well, we don't know 208 00:09:48,160 --> 00:09:49,640 why. Why do some prices go up and 209 00:09:49,640 --> 00:09:51,920 some prices go down? It's certainly not the money. 210 00:09:52,320 --> 00:09:53,640 And so then they can distract us. 211 00:09:53,640 --> 00:09:56,600 And now today in the last presidential election cycle, 212 00:09:56,600 --> 00:09:59,200 inflation was probably the hottest debated topic, but 213 00:09:59,200 --> 00:10:02,320 nobody understands it because they've changed the definition. 214 00:10:02,320 --> 00:10:04,240 We can't really tie back. So anyway, if it's the money 215 00:10:04,240 --> 00:10:06,760 supply, then we just look at how fast is the money supply rating 216 00:10:06,760 --> 00:10:10,200 going. Now, since I think 2008, it's 217 00:10:10,200 --> 00:10:12,960 gone up by about 8%, but since about 2020, it's been going up 218 00:10:12,960 --> 00:10:15,080 at 10% a year. That's the number. 219 00:10:15,080 --> 00:10:18,080 We can also look at another way, and this is a little bit 220 00:10:18,080 --> 00:10:21,880 different, but gold today is at 4600 an ounce, which is insane, 221 00:10:22,000 --> 00:10:26,960 which means $1.00 represents 146 hundredth of an ounce of gold. 222 00:10:27,560 --> 00:10:30,040 In 1913, when the Federal Reserve was created, it was 223 00:10:30,040 --> 00:10:34,360 120th. So that means in 113 years it's 224 00:10:34,360 --> 00:10:38,000 gone up by 5% a year. So you can say 5% a year, but 225 00:10:38,000 --> 00:10:39,360 the problem is it's accelerating. 226 00:10:39,360 --> 00:10:41,280 So it was 5% a year for 113 years. 227 00:10:41,280 --> 00:10:43,240 It's about 1010% for the last five. 228 00:10:43,920 --> 00:10:47,920 Man, that's first of all, again, it's absolutely crazy because 229 00:10:48,160 --> 00:10:51,840 everybody who's been thinking that they've been getting a 230 00:10:51,840 --> 00:10:55,200 return have not been getting a return whatsoever. 231 00:10:55,200 --> 00:10:58,400 They've just been literally treading water at best. 232 00:10:59,160 --> 00:11:00,960 But again, let. Me break that into math. 233 00:11:01,480 --> 00:11:06,880 So at 5%, that means every 40, every 14 years, your money gets 234 00:11:06,880 --> 00:11:10,240 cut in half. So if you're 25 years old, you 235 00:11:10,240 --> 00:11:13,600 get out of college, you start your career and at the at the 236 00:11:13,600 --> 00:11:16,400 time you're 25, you start saving, you save $1,000,000. 237 00:11:16,400 --> 00:11:19,160 By the time you retire, it's worth 130 grand. 238 00:11:21,440 --> 00:11:23,680 If you save 2 million, it's worth, you know, whatever 200 239 00:11:23,680 --> 00:11:25,600 and 32140. So like, you understand, like 240 00:11:25,600 --> 00:11:28,720 it's stealing so fast. And so that's why half of baby 241 00:11:28,720 --> 00:11:33,000 boomers today have zero, and of the half that do have money is 242 00:11:33,000 --> 00:11:36,840 an average of $240,000. That's wild. 243 00:11:37,000 --> 00:11:39,320 That's wild. Now, Mark, one of the things 244 00:11:39,320 --> 00:11:42,480 that really stuck out to me in the document that you sent me is 245 00:11:42,560 --> 00:11:46,240 the strategy is to build a personal Bitcoin treasury with 246 00:11:46,240 --> 00:11:49,400 layer liquidity, cash for safety, cash equivalents for 247 00:11:49,400 --> 00:11:52,040 stability. Bitcoin is the core engine and a 248 00:11:52,040 --> 00:11:55,280 higher beta Bitcoin business or treasury companies. 249 00:11:55,280 --> 00:11:59,840 You also said that part of your thesis was this treasury 250 00:11:59,840 --> 00:12:02,880 thinking, which is the same frameworks that institutional 251 00:12:02,880 --> 00:12:05,640 that institutions use. What do you mean by that? 252 00:12:05,640 --> 00:12:07,680 And what can bitcoiners do today? 253 00:12:07,680 --> 00:12:10,600 What would what would be the advice that you would give to 254 00:12:10,600 --> 00:12:12,560 bitcoiners? Because I said all of this 255 00:12:12,560 --> 00:12:15,640 stuff, most of my audience is like, all right, stay humble 256 00:12:15,640 --> 00:12:18,160 stack sats. What would be the advice that 257 00:12:18,160 --> 00:12:22,640 you would give to, you know, the everyday bitcoiner to, to 258 00:12:22,720 --> 00:12:26,480 implement this thesis so that they could actually truly build 259 00:12:26,480 --> 00:12:28,920 wealth? Yeah, so stay simple, stay 260 00:12:28,920 --> 00:12:31,000 humble, Stack sats. Great advice, everyone. 261 00:12:31,080 --> 00:12:33,480 Again, it's a cheat code. You can just buy Bitcoin and you 262 00:12:33,480 --> 00:12:36,720 can outperform Wall Street private equity venture cap. 263 00:12:36,720 --> 00:12:39,520 You can just do that and then you can sell it off little 264 00:12:39,520 --> 00:12:41,400 chunks at a time and you probably won't run out of money 265 00:12:41,400 --> 00:12:42,920 because it's compounding faster than you're selling it. 266 00:12:42,920 --> 00:12:43,960 Depend on how much you're spending. 267 00:12:43,960 --> 00:12:45,480 And that works. Sure. 268 00:12:48,360 --> 00:12:50,080 I'm a surfer, I'm from Southern California. 269 00:12:50,920 --> 00:12:54,040 Most people haven't ever gone swimming in the ocean when 270 00:12:54,040 --> 00:12:56,280 there's big waves and they probably shouldn't because they 271 00:12:56,280 --> 00:12:58,480 could drown. If you wanted to surf, you 272 00:12:58,480 --> 00:13:01,000 wouldn't go to like pipeline in Hawaii and jump out into 30 foot 273 00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:02,640 waves because you'll probably drown. 274 00:13:03,200 --> 00:13:05,240 But yet there's hundreds of people in the water there every 275 00:13:05,240 --> 00:13:08,040 day surfing, having fun. So the reason why I bring that 276 00:13:08,040 --> 00:13:10,920 story up is that the first thing that people hear when they hear 277 00:13:10,920 --> 00:13:13,240 this, especially Bitcoiners, is Mark, isn't that risky? 278 00:13:13,440 --> 00:13:14,920 Are you saying that I should use debt? 279 00:13:15,200 --> 00:13:16,640 Are you saying that I should use leverage? 280 00:13:16,640 --> 00:13:17,800 Because what if I get liquidated? 281 00:13:17,800 --> 00:13:19,560 And what if I lose my money? And Dave Ramsey said that I 282 00:13:19,560 --> 00:13:21,200 should never use debt and I should never use. 283 00:13:21,200 --> 00:13:23,160 I should pay off everything. I should pay off my house. 284 00:13:23,400 --> 00:13:25,280 Mark, what you're saying sounds extremely risky. 285 00:13:25,960 --> 00:13:29,960 Sure, like going in the ocean is extremely risky, but I could 286 00:13:29,960 --> 00:13:33,000 learn how to swim. I could put on a life jacket, I 287 00:13:33,000 --> 00:13:34,240 could make sure there's a lifeguard there. 288 00:13:34,240 --> 00:13:35,680 I could have a jet ski follow me. 289 00:13:36,080 --> 00:13:37,480 And so we can de risk the situation. 290 00:13:37,480 --> 00:13:40,120 So the first thing I would say is we have to understand that 291 00:13:40,880 --> 00:13:42,440 there's never an absence of risk. 292 00:13:42,720 --> 00:13:43,800 There's only a difference of risk. 293 00:13:44,640 --> 00:13:47,600 An easy analogy would be if I go to the gym because I want to get 294 00:13:47,600 --> 00:13:50,040 in shape, it's risky. I could get in a car accident on 295 00:13:50,040 --> 00:13:52,600 the way there. I could get in a fight when I'm 296 00:13:52,600 --> 00:13:54,160 there. I could drop a weight on my head 297 00:13:54,160 --> 00:13:55,280 when I'm there. That's risky. 298 00:13:55,280 --> 00:13:59,080 I could hurt my shoulder lifting overhead, so I'm not going to go 299 00:13:59,080 --> 00:14:00,000 to the gym because that's too risky. 300 00:14:00,080 --> 00:14:02,560 So I stay on the couch. But then I get obesity, I get 301 00:14:02,560 --> 00:14:04,680 heart disease, I get cardiovascular disease. 302 00:14:04,800 --> 00:14:07,840 So there's always risk. So the risk is you either learn 303 00:14:07,840 --> 00:14:11,560 how to leverage the Fiat system and use credit and equity, the 304 00:14:11,560 --> 00:14:15,360 Treasury model, or you try to save your way and that's 305 00:14:15,360 --> 00:14:19,480 guaranteed loss. So what do we do? 306 00:14:19,720 --> 00:14:20,960 You want to break down the Treasury model. 307 00:14:21,040 --> 00:14:23,560 Keep going, man, Keep going. So the treasury model is 308 00:14:23,560 --> 00:14:26,080 basically just like what Saylor did and it's what the wealthy 309 00:14:26,080 --> 00:14:28,480 have been doing forever. The problem is that these tools 310 00:14:28,480 --> 00:14:30,400 have only been available to the 1%. 311 00:14:30,680 --> 00:14:35,080 Bitcoin is the cheat code that allows all of us to do the same 312 00:14:35,080 --> 00:14:37,480 thing. So what the wealthy have always 313 00:14:37,480 --> 00:14:39,280 done. So let me the traditional path 314 00:14:39,280 --> 00:14:42,760 that everybody's on is go to school, get the grades, save for 315 00:14:42,760 --> 00:14:44,920 40 years for retirement and when they have enough money to sell, 316 00:14:44,960 --> 00:14:46,760 right? So what they do is they earn, 317 00:14:47,320 --> 00:14:51,640 they pay taxes, they live on whatever's left and then 318 00:14:51,640 --> 00:14:54,160 hopefully save a little bit in stack a couple sets. 319 00:14:54,840 --> 00:15:00,760 What the wealthy do is they make income and buy assets, don't pay 320 00:15:00,760 --> 00:15:04,240 taxes on that, and then they have the assets pay for their 321 00:15:04,240 --> 00:15:06,200 life. Are you saying this is a viable 322 00:15:06,200 --> 00:15:08,920 strategy for most people? Everybody could do this and I 323 00:15:08,920 --> 00:15:10,440 can break it down for you. Break it down. 324 00:15:10,480 --> 00:15:13,600 So you have to make, this is not how to make money. 325 00:15:13,600 --> 00:15:15,480 You need to figure how to make money and and get credit. 326 00:15:15,520 --> 00:15:17,520 If you can't figure out how to get a credit card just in the 327 00:15:17,520 --> 00:15:20,120 podcast right now. So let's say that you're making 328 00:15:20,120 --> 00:15:24,040 $100,000 a year. You know how to get a credit 329 00:15:24,040 --> 00:15:27,640 card, you have a home, you have a business, whatever. 330 00:15:27,640 --> 00:15:31,080 OK, So step number one, whether you're 100 thousand, 100 million 331 00:15:31,080 --> 00:15:32,520 or whatever. Wait, wait Mark, hold on. 332 00:15:32,520 --> 00:15:35,480 Sorry to interrupt you now I'm connecting the dots. 333 00:15:35,480 --> 00:15:39,960 Now I understand by the jiu jitsu, the jujitsu analogy that 334 00:15:39,960 --> 00:15:43,120 you used, and it's all coming together in my mind. 335 00:15:43,400 --> 00:15:46,840 What I said was a judo because judo is about like throwing your 336 00:15:46,840 --> 00:15:48,560 opponent, right? So what happens is when you 337 00:15:48,560 --> 00:15:51,560 attack me, you have energy moving towards me and I would 338 00:15:51,560 --> 00:15:53,400 transfer your energy and throw you. 339 00:15:53,800 --> 00:15:57,600 Using the very system of credit against the system itself. 340 00:15:57,600 --> 00:16:00,200 It's a speculative attack. So what happens is in the game 341 00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:03,160 of building wealth, the two main penalties that we have to deal 342 00:16:03,160 --> 00:16:07,520 with are taxes and inflation. So taxes steal half of our 343 00:16:07,520 --> 00:16:10,480 wealth and inflation robs us 10% of our wealth. 344 00:16:10,760 --> 00:16:12,320 So we have to offset those two things. 345 00:16:12,320 --> 00:16:15,120 So how can we minimize that? So step number one, if I make 346 00:16:15,120 --> 00:16:19,880 $100,000 a year, and let's just say 40% tax rate depending on 347 00:16:19,880 --> 00:16:22,480 what state you're in, whatever for easy numbers, I'm not good 348 00:16:22,480 --> 00:16:24,360 on the fly with my math. So 40% tax rate. 349 00:16:24,360 --> 00:16:26,760 So I make 100 grand. I pay 40,000 in taxes. 350 00:16:26,760 --> 00:16:29,920 I have 60,000 left. I live off 60,000, which is 351 00:16:29,920 --> 00:16:31,560 tough. And hopefully I save a couple. 352 00:16:32,000 --> 00:16:35,680 I stack a couple sets. OK, So what step #1 would be 353 00:16:35,880 --> 00:16:40,160 would be to access credit and I would use that credit to buy an 354 00:16:40,200 --> 00:16:42,240 asset that gives me tax depreciation. 355 00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:47,160 Now I use credit so there's no money out of my pocket because I 356 00:16:47,160 --> 00:16:49,160 don't have any. I'm broke, I'm barely stacking 357 00:16:49,160 --> 00:16:51,280 sats. So I use some credit that gets 358 00:16:51,280 --> 00:16:53,440 me an asset that gets me tax depreciation. 359 00:16:53,440 --> 00:16:56,240 And let's say that I get $20,000 of tax depreciation. 360 00:16:56,600 --> 00:16:59,880 So now instead of ending up with 60,000 after taxes, I end up 361 00:16:59,880 --> 00:17:04,119 with 80,000 after taxes. I have an extra 20,000 without 362 00:17:04,119 --> 00:17:08,400 working a single extra hour without working harder, and I 363 00:17:08,400 --> 00:17:11,319 just made an extra 20 grand, which gets me more sats. 364 00:17:11,880 --> 00:17:13,599 So now I buy $20,000 worth of Bitcoin. 365 00:17:13,920 --> 00:17:16,240 Next year I do the same. The next year I do the same when 366 00:17:16,240 --> 00:17:19,319 five years without without working an extra single hour 367 00:17:19,319 --> 00:17:23,240 without making an extra single dollar of stacked $100,000 in 368 00:17:23,240 --> 00:17:24,880 Bitcoin. And that's not accounting for 369 00:17:24,880 --> 00:17:27,400 any appreciation. All right, so now I've got a 370 00:17:27,400 --> 00:17:29,200 hunt hunt out. So you're following me. 371 00:17:29,200 --> 00:17:31,560 I didn't work harder, but now I've got a treasury that's being 372 00:17:31,560 --> 00:17:32,880 built up. OK. 373 00:17:32,880 --> 00:17:37,120 Then I can start to leverage the Treasury to get more tax 374 00:17:37,120 --> 00:17:38,600 depreciation. OK. 375 00:17:38,680 --> 00:17:43,160 And I can use the treasury to now pay for my living expenses. 376 00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:46,360 And the goal, let me let me Fast forward to the end goal to 377 00:17:46,360 --> 00:17:49,040 connect the dots and I'll stop. But the end goal that we want to 378 00:17:49,040 --> 00:17:53,280 is, as I already said, is I want my earned income to be offset. 379 00:17:53,280 --> 00:17:56,640 So there's no taxable amount and 100% of my earned income goes 380 00:17:56,640 --> 00:18:00,000 into Bitcoin. And then I leverage my Bitcoin 381 00:18:00,280 --> 00:18:03,800 to pay for my living expenses. And that's tax free because I'm 382 00:18:03,800 --> 00:18:08,240 using debt to do that. Man, this is this is first of 383 00:18:08,240 --> 00:18:12,720 all is blowing my mind. And again I want to I want to 384 00:18:12,720 --> 00:18:15,560 talk about the judo aspect of it, right. 385 00:18:15,720 --> 00:18:18,560 How is it a speculative attack on the system? 386 00:18:18,960 --> 00:18:22,840 Yeah, because I'm using cheap credit, cheap Fiat credit to buy 387 00:18:22,840 --> 00:18:27,840 a harder asset. So I am using both the cheap 388 00:18:27,840 --> 00:18:33,960 Fiat credit system and the tax system to lever up and stack a 389 00:18:33,960 --> 00:18:36,880 giant Bitcoin treasury. So I'm speculative, attacking 390 00:18:36,880 --> 00:18:40,120 using credit, buying, using cheap money to buy a harder 391 00:18:40,120 --> 00:18:41,600 asset. And you said? 392 00:18:41,600 --> 00:18:46,400 It's exactly what sailors doing. Sailor is borrowing stretch the 393 00:18:46,400 --> 00:18:49,520 iPhone moment. He's paying 11% yield today, so 394 00:18:49,520 --> 00:18:52,360 he's borrowing money at 11% to buy Bitcoin. 395 00:18:53,440 --> 00:18:57,160 Most of us can get money for cheaper than 11% and we can buy 396 00:18:57,160 --> 00:18:58,920 Bitcoin. I could borrow against my 397 00:18:58,920 --> 00:19:01,480 Bitcoin at 10% and buy more Bitcoin. 398 00:19:01,480 --> 00:19:03,280 I'm getting money cheaper than sailors. 399 00:19:03,520 --> 00:19:04,760 We can all do the same thing. OK. 400 00:19:04,760 --> 00:19:07,800 So but what's the downside here? What's the downside risk? 401 00:19:07,880 --> 00:19:09,960 The downside is if you go to the gym, you can get in a car 402 00:19:09,960 --> 00:19:11,360 accident, you could drop a weight on your head, you could 403 00:19:11,360 --> 00:19:12,560 hurt your shoulder when you lift weights. 404 00:19:12,840 --> 00:19:14,800 The downside is if I go in the ocean, I could drowned. 405 00:19:15,160 --> 00:19:17,520 So what can we do to mitigate that? 406 00:19:18,240 --> 00:19:19,600 That's the that's the right question. 407 00:19:19,600 --> 00:19:21,600 The question again is not, it's risky. 408 00:19:21,600 --> 00:19:23,720 I shouldn't do it. The question is, but I want to 409 00:19:23,720 --> 00:19:25,640 surf. So like, how do I just learn to 410 00:19:25,640 --> 00:19:28,600 swim, man, right? So OK, so we want to mitigate 411 00:19:28,600 --> 00:19:30,920 the risk. Now, Sailor just built up a $2 412 00:19:30,920 --> 00:19:37,880 billion cash war chest. He is now has multiple levels of 413 00:19:37,880 --> 00:19:40,160 security before he'll ever have to sell his Bitcoin. 414 00:19:40,160 --> 00:19:43,640 So for example, most of the the debt doesn't even encumber the 415 00:19:43,640 --> 00:19:45,640 Bitcoin, right? There's actually no forced 416 00:19:45,640 --> 00:19:47,160 mechanism that even get him to sell. 417 00:19:47,360 --> 00:19:49,680 So how could we de risk the situation? 418 00:19:49,680 --> 00:19:51,640 There's no absence of risk, but we can de risk it. 419 00:19:51,640 --> 00:19:55,720 So a couple things we do #1 we want to understand that 420 00:19:56,000 --> 00:19:58,400 liquidity and cash is not the same thing. 421 00:19:58,400 --> 00:20:01,400 I'm sure you've talked plenty about Michael Howell and you 422 00:20:01,400 --> 00:20:03,840 know, Nick Body, a shout out to the Bitcoin layer. 423 00:20:03,840 --> 00:20:08,280 They have a beautiful global liquidity lay model as well, 424 00:20:08,280 --> 00:20:10,000 right? But how do they come up with 425 00:20:10,000 --> 00:20:12,680 global liquidity? So it's a proprietary model. 426 00:20:12,680 --> 00:20:13,920 So that's why they had to build their own. 427 00:20:14,040 --> 00:20:18,520 And it's not just M2, it's the total amount of available credit 428 00:20:18,560 --> 00:20:20,800 that could create more money. Right. 429 00:20:21,040 --> 00:20:23,120 So think about this. So we don't want to think in 430 00:20:23,120 --> 00:20:25,120 terms of cash. We want to think in terms of how 431 00:20:25,120 --> 00:20:29,400 much liquidity do I have? That's step #1 cash on 432 00:20:29,400 --> 00:20:31,760 liquidity. Cash is liquidity, but liquidity 433 00:20:31,760 --> 00:20:33,480 is not cash. Copy me. 434 00:20:33,880 --> 00:20:35,560 OK. So we want to understand 435 00:20:35,560 --> 00:20:39,800 liquidity from 4 layers #1 I need to have my level 1 436 00:20:39,800 --> 00:20:42,040 liquidity is my operating capital. 437 00:20:42,200 --> 00:20:45,880 So that's my total monthly expenses in including all my 438 00:20:45,880 --> 00:20:47,480 debt service, everything I have to pay monthly. 439 00:20:48,000 --> 00:20:51,040 What is that and then how much of A buffer do I need? 440 00:20:51,120 --> 00:20:53,480 One month, two months, three months, six months. 441 00:20:53,480 --> 00:20:55,080 Now how do I come up with that number? 442 00:20:55,240 --> 00:20:58,440 It depends. If I'm a sales Rep and my income 443 00:20:58,440 --> 00:21:01,320 is very lumpy, I probably and and I have high expenses, I 444 00:21:01,320 --> 00:21:02,920 probably want three to six months. 445 00:21:03,160 --> 00:21:05,600 If I am a government contractor, I get paid every single week 446 00:21:05,600 --> 00:21:09,160 like clockwork and I and my expenses are low, then maybe one 447 00:21:09,160 --> 00:21:10,880 month is fine. OK, So you have to figure where 448 00:21:10,880 --> 00:21:13,400 that layer one liquidity is important for you. 449 00:21:13,520 --> 00:21:18,000 One to three months. OK, Level 2 liquidity is a cash 450 00:21:18,000 --> 00:21:20,920 equivalents. So this would be money market 451 00:21:21,280 --> 00:21:24,840 short term treasuries making 5%, it's stretch making 11%. 452 00:21:25,080 --> 00:21:29,040 So then I want to have some money in liquidity layer #2 and 453 00:21:29,040 --> 00:21:32,000 that could be, and This is Money I could access in less than 7 454 00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:36,400 days. So if I had a margin call, if 455 00:21:36,600 --> 00:21:39,760 something happened, I can get money quickly to solve that 456 00:21:39,760 --> 00:21:42,640 problem. So if I'm drowning, there's a 457 00:21:42,640 --> 00:21:43,800 lifeguard that can throw me around. 458 00:21:44,680 --> 00:21:50,480 OK, liquidity layer 3 is then assets that I can get liquidity 459 00:21:50,480 --> 00:21:53,160 against, but it might take me weeks to months. 460 00:21:53,160 --> 00:21:57,560 A home that I could refinance, I could pull a home equity line 461 00:21:57,560 --> 00:22:01,200 against it stocks in my brokerage account that I could 462 00:22:01,200 --> 00:22:04,640 take a a margin loan against Bitcoin that I could borrow 463 00:22:04,640 --> 00:22:07,000 against. And then the layer four are 464 00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:11,240 assets that are non liquid. So I bought a a lot in Mexico. 465 00:22:11,240 --> 00:22:12,680 I can't really get liquidity out of that. 466 00:22:12,920 --> 00:22:16,160 So I need to make sure that step number one, do I know how to 467 00:22:16,160 --> 00:22:19,200 swim? That's the operating step #2 do 468 00:22:19,200 --> 00:22:21,160 I have a life jacket on? That's my short term liquidity 469 00:22:21,160 --> 00:22:25,400 step #3 do I have a, a lifeguard watching that could throw me a 470 00:22:25,400 --> 00:22:27,240 line? That's so that's the first step. 471 00:22:27,240 --> 00:22:30,040 Does that make sense? Absolutely, it makes sense. 472 00:22:30,800 --> 00:22:34,080 Yo, I want to tell you about the best place to build your 473 00:22:34,080 --> 00:22:36,320 automatic self custody Bitcoin stack. 474 00:22:36,680 --> 00:22:39,680 I'm talking about bitcoinwell.com. 475 00:22:40,080 --> 00:22:42,600 What makes bitcoinwell.com different is that it's a 476 00:22:42,600 --> 00:22:46,560 completely non custodial platform, meaning as soon as you 477 00:22:46,560 --> 00:22:50,440 buy Bitcoin and the funds clear, it goes straight to yourself 478 00:22:50,440 --> 00:22:53,840 custody Bitcoin wallet address. And that perfectly aligns with 479 00:22:53,840 --> 00:22:56,440 simply Bitcoin ethos of the separation of money and state 480 00:22:57,160 --> 00:23:00,520 support Bitcoin on ramps that are self custody by default. 481 00:23:01,120 --> 00:23:04,080 To get started, go to bitcoinwell.com today. 482 00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:07,920 Takes 2 to 5 minutes to sign up and bada Bing, bada boom, you're 483 00:23:07,920 --> 00:23:12,160 ready to buy Bitcoin again. I'm coming from the traditional 484 00:23:12,160 --> 00:23:18,000 Bitcoin mindset, but you're basically it's, it's, it's a 485 00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:23,360 layer, it's a, it's a layered system that allows you to 486 00:23:23,360 --> 00:23:27,600 essentially not only live off your Bitcoin, but accumulate 487 00:23:27,600 --> 00:23:31,520 more Bitcoin And it's also a system that allows it. 488 00:23:31,560 --> 00:23:34,400 It becomes multi generational. So this is something that you 489 00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:37,360 can pass on to the next generation. 490 00:23:37,520 --> 00:23:39,560 They can implement this themselves. 491 00:23:39,760 --> 00:23:42,560 And rather than like the traditional, you know, the 492 00:23:42,560 --> 00:23:44,800 saying, which is like within two generations, you know, they've 493 00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:48,880 just the money's gone. You're building a system, you're 494 00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:53,480 leveraging Bitcoin in order to just, you know, create this 495 00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:55,160 flywheel. That's what I'm seeing. 496 00:23:55,840 --> 00:23:59,960 I call it a perpetual Bitcoin machine, so I literally have the 497 00:23:59,960 --> 00:24:01,400 government buy my Bitcoin for me. 498 00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:04,360 OK, So what does that mean? Go into that please. 499 00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:08,960 Well, so let's say for example, I use debt, however I get it, a 500 00:24:08,960 --> 00:24:11,360 credit card or I borrow against my Bitcoin and I buy Bitcoin 501 00:24:11,360 --> 00:24:13,480 miners. I know you found fond of that. 502 00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:16,320 I buy Bitcoin miners under Trump's one big beautiful bill. 503 00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:19,320 I'm allowed to depreciate those miners 100% in year 1. 504 00:24:19,560 --> 00:24:22,800 So I use credit from some source, $0.00 out of pocket. 505 00:24:22,800 --> 00:24:26,640 I buy Bitcoin miners that those Bitcoin miners offset my income 506 00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:28,120 100%. I pay 0 taxes. 507 00:24:28,320 --> 00:24:30,840 I use the money that I was going to send to the government so 508 00:24:30,840 --> 00:24:33,320 they could pay the daycare centers in in Minnesota. 509 00:24:33,520 --> 00:24:35,680 But instead I don't send it to the daycare centers. 510 00:24:35,680 --> 00:24:37,920 I keep it and instead I buy instead. 511 00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:41,080 Instead, I buy more Bitcoin. Wait, wait, Mark, but it's just 512 00:24:41,080 --> 00:24:43,520 a matter of time. I, I was thinking about this the 513 00:24:43,520 --> 00:24:46,440 other day. People are literally going out, 514 00:24:46,440 --> 00:24:50,560 especially here in Miami, right? People are literally buying 515 00:24:50,560 --> 00:24:55,200 properties just to sit on them. The rents from those properties 516 00:24:55,200 --> 00:24:59,400 don't even pay for the expenses. The property something could, 517 00:24:59,560 --> 00:25:02,080 you know, something could break the property tax. 518 00:25:04,040 --> 00:25:08,360 Isn't it just a matter of time before people realize what you 519 00:25:08,360 --> 00:25:11,120 just said? That there's a better mechanism, 520 00:25:11,120 --> 00:25:14,600 there's a better strategy they can implement, no pun intended? 521 00:25:15,280 --> 00:25:17,480 There is, yes. And so obviously the world is 522 00:25:17,480 --> 00:25:18,960 waking up to that. I started my career in real 523 00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:20,440 estate. I still own real estate, but I 524 00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:21,480 started my career in real estate. 525 00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:24,760 At one point I owned over 200 doors as we call them, units 526 00:25:24,760 --> 00:25:26,320 that were making rent, rental income. 527 00:25:26,840 --> 00:25:30,120 In 2021, I sold the last apartment that I had to go into 528 00:25:30,120 --> 00:25:33,000 Bitcoin. I still own properties like I 529 00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:34,960 talked about my ranch property you've been to in Austin. 530 00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:37,480 I live on a beach and. But for utility reasons. 531 00:25:37,560 --> 00:25:39,280 But for rental properties, they're gone. 532 00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:41,080 I'm out. I don't make rental properties 533 00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:42,440 anymore. I'd rather just own the Bitcoin 534 00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:43,640 for all the reasons that you said. 535 00:25:44,280 --> 00:25:47,920 I do think that Bitcoiners are a little bit overly optimistic in 536 00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:51,560 the demonetization of real estate in a sense, because it's 537 00:25:51,560 --> 00:25:53,280 not just that we need more homes. 538 00:25:53,280 --> 00:25:55,480 It's not just that Bitcoin is a better investment. 539 00:25:56,600 --> 00:25:58,120 There's, there's real scarcity here. 540 00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:00,560 If you want to live in Miami Beach, there's only so many 541 00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:02,760 homes in Miami Beach. And so the law of scarcity 542 00:26:02,760 --> 00:26:04,600 applies there. To your point, there are 543 00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:07,560 potentially a lot of vacant investment homes and maybe a lot 544 00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:09,400 of that does go away. So that will change a little 545 00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:10,880 bit. But I think at the same time, 546 00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:12,680 they're always going to be someone who wants to be downtown 547 00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:15,400 Manhattan, somebody wants to be lakefront in Lake Austin. 548 00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:17,720 And so the scarcity is still going to be there. 549 00:26:17,720 --> 00:26:19,520 You can't get around that. No, absolutely. 550 00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:23,920 I mean, I completely agree on on the scarcity aspect of it. 551 00:26:24,120 --> 00:26:31,160 But I do also see it like as if you are a property owner and you 552 00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:35,560 own multiple properties and now there's a superior investment of 553 00:26:35,560 --> 00:26:38,040 which you don't have to pay property taxes, you don't have 554 00:26:38,040 --> 00:26:40,480 to pay maintenance on. And I think. 555 00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:43,480 But but here's what's missing, and this is what I want to fill 556 00:26:43,480 --> 00:26:45,640 in the blank for. Here's what's missing. 557 00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:49,760 If I'm that real estate guy. And to your point, I have to pay 558 00:26:49,760 --> 00:26:51,800 the maintenance and I have to deal with all the issues, right? 559 00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:53,840 But at least it provides me some cash flow. 560 00:26:54,600 --> 00:26:59,360 Sure, Bitcoin should appreciate faster if I, if I believe that I 561 00:26:59,360 --> 00:27:00,680 do, obviously, but not everybody is. 562 00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:03,680 I believe it will appreciate faster, but it doesn't provide 563 00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:06,880 cash flow and I need money to pay my bills every month. 564 00:27:07,080 --> 00:27:09,560 And this is where bitcoiners lose this they, they, when they, 565 00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:11,600 when they, they don't understand what sailors doing. 566 00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:14,200 They don't understand where how big digital credit is. 567 00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:15,880 They can't even wrap their head around it because they don't 568 00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:17,400 really understand the, the, the real world. 569 00:27:17,840 --> 00:27:21,920 And the real world is you're 78 years old, you need money like 570 00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:25,120 actual dollars every month to buy your freaking medication, 571 00:27:25,120 --> 00:27:27,080 man. You got to pay your electricity 572 00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:28,840 bill. People need income. 573 00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:31,200 And so digital credit solves income. 574 00:27:31,360 --> 00:27:34,640 Bitcoin doesn't. Bitcoin is an asset and Warren 575 00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:37,160 Buffett would say it's a non productive asset. 576 00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:39,120 So the first thing is I'm getting deeper into the 577 00:27:39,120 --> 00:27:40,720 treasury. I have to understand what assets 578 00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:42,520 do I own? And then there's four categories 579 00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:45,640 I'd put those assets in. And Bitcoin is a non productive 580 00:27:45,640 --> 00:27:48,040 asset. That's why, just like gold, it's 581 00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:50,960 not a bad thing. O how do I take a nonproductive 582 00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:53,880 asset when I need income? So I'll buy the rental property. 583 00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:56,400 It's not going to appreciate as much, but it gives me the 584 00:27:56,400 --> 00:27:58,800 income. But what I'm saying is I can 585 00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:01,400 turn Bitcoin into an income asset. 586 00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:05,360 I can take a non productive asset like Bitcoin and turn it 587 00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:08,600 into a productive asset to replace real estate by 588 00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:12,840 harvesting the appreciation through debt leverage, not by 589 00:28:12,840 --> 00:28:16,320 selling the asset. Now if, if real estate investors 590 00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:18,040 can catch on to that, like I used to be a real estate 591 00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:22,440 investor, then they go, oh, so Bitcoin doesn't have tenants, 592 00:28:22,600 --> 00:28:25,720 there is no maintenance, It appreciates faster and I can get 593 00:28:25,720 --> 00:28:29,240 income from it, tax free income at that, because income from 594 00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:32,080 properties is taxed. So now no, no maintenance, no 595 00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:34,400 headaches, I can move it wherever I want, it appreciates 596 00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:36,520 faster and I get tax free income. 597 00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:39,640 I'm all in, Mark. How complicated is what you 598 00:28:39,640 --> 00:28:41,520 said? Is anybody? 599 00:28:41,560 --> 00:28:44,200 Borrowing at your Bitcoin? I mean, pretty Dang easy. 600 00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:47,040 It's just as simple as that. It's borrowing against your 601 00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:51,440 Bitcoin, being very careful with the the margin aspects of it. 602 00:28:51,800 --> 00:28:55,440 It's just that simple. Yeah, and and, and Nico, there's 603 00:28:55,440 --> 00:28:57,400 always risk. How do I manage the risk? 604 00:28:57,680 --> 00:29:02,840 If I borrow 10% LTV against my Bitcoin, what is the probability 605 00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:04,560 I get liquidated? Very low. 606 00:29:04,760 --> 00:29:05,880 Like single digits? Low. 607 00:29:05,880 --> 00:29:08,520 Very low because you can always just put on more put put up more 608 00:29:08,520 --> 00:29:11,400 collateral. But at at 10%, what's the odds 609 00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:13,360 I'm going to even give you a collateral call because, 610 00:29:13,360 --> 00:29:14,000 because. Extremely. 611 00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:17,040 I mean unless unless Bitcoin goes to 10K it's it's like. 612 00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:18,880 Extremely low and what is the odds of that? 613 00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:21,680 Minimal at this point. Single digit, yeah. 614 00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:24,480 OK, So what about? So if I borrow? 615 00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:26,240 But where? But where? 616 00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:29,560 Are you going to get 10% LTV? I would no. 617 00:29:29,560 --> 00:29:31,640 If I had $100,000 in Bitcoin, I'd borrow 10 grand. 618 00:29:31,720 --> 00:29:33,320 That's OK. Gotcha, Gotcha On the borrowing 619 00:29:33,320 --> 00:29:35,440 thing, I understand I. Loan to value, I understand. 620 00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:38,240 So I'm saying if I only borrowed, if I set a liquidity 621 00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:40,400 rule, I'm never going to borrow more than 10% LTV. 622 00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:44,600 The chance that I get a margin call is like single digits, of 623 00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:46,320 course. And if I'm still worried about 624 00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:48,880 it, then I make sure liquidity layer two and three are built up 625 00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:51,040 enough to cover it. I have a home equity line. 626 00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:53,400 If I do get a margin call, I'll just pull a little equity out of 627 00:29:53,400 --> 00:29:57,440 my home liquidity so we can de risk this thing now if I borrow, 628 00:29:57,440 --> 00:29:59,640 if I borrow. And so here's how it works. 629 00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:01,040 What do you what do you think and. 630 00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:04,160 I'm connecting the dots on the show, Mark. 631 00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:07,640 Okay, now okay, this is it. Now understand when you're 632 00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:11,400 saying, okay, so the the judo analogy makes sense. 633 00:30:11,400 --> 00:30:13,920 Now the perpetual Bitcoin machine. 634 00:30:14,680 --> 00:30:16,680 I think I finished that. I think it let me just finish. 635 00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:20,640 That it's I'm having explosions in my brain, Mark let me finish 636 00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:22,520 the. The perpetual Bitcoin machine. 637 00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:24,440 OK, OK. So what I've done is I've used 638 00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:27,600 credit to buy Bitcoin miners. The Bitcoin miners offset my 639 00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:30,000 income, so I pay no taxes. The money that was going to go 640 00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:32,800 to fund the daycare centers now, and I get to keep and I get to 641 00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:35,280 buy Bitcoin with it. So the government funded my 642 00:30:35,280 --> 00:30:39,920 Bitcoin next year, next year, next year, I borrow against the 643 00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:44,120 newly mined Bitcoin and the Bitcoin I bought to offset my 644 00:30:44,120 --> 00:30:46,480 income again. Instead of going to the daycare 645 00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:49,880 centers, I get to buy more Bitcoin again, and every single 646 00:30:49,880 --> 00:30:52,640 year than the Bitcoin. I say that the Bitcoin I 647 00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:55,400 acquired because I saved taxes, plus the newly mined Bitcoin I 648 00:30:55,400 --> 00:31:00,320 bought for the tax depreciation is perpetually funding itself. 649 00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:01,640 And and what? Do you? 650 00:31:01,640 --> 00:31:05,760 And it's and it's all with $0.00 out of my pocket. 651 00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:10,640 No extra hours worked, not working harder, having my money 652 00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:12,760 work harder. What I say, Nico, the reason why 653 00:31:12,760 --> 00:31:15,320 you have to work so hard is because your money doesn't. 654 00:31:15,800 --> 00:31:18,400 Most people are willing to go get a side hustle or a second 655 00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:20,280 job, but your money's only going to do one. 656 00:31:20,280 --> 00:31:23,400 No, no, no, no, no, no. My money's going to do 3 or 4 657 00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:24,960 jobs. I'm going to do a job. 658 00:31:25,640 --> 00:31:28,880 Why do you think most bitcoiners think like savers when Bitcoin 659 00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:30,880 actually rewards the treasury thinking? 660 00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:35,120 It's not just Bitcoiners. It's because we've all been 661 00:31:35,120 --> 00:31:40,720 taught to go to school, get good grades, save for 40 years and 662 00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:42,600 then hopefully one day spend it down. 663 00:31:42,880 --> 00:31:46,560 Bitcoiners bring that lens in. But because now Bitcoin is a 664 00:31:46,560 --> 00:31:50,800 superior asset, I can just buy Bitcoin and do nothing and I can 665 00:31:50,800 --> 00:31:54,960 outperform everybody else. So Bitcoin allows that allows us 666 00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:58,720 to actually be the saver. But the problem is if you're 667 00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:01,480 making 100 grand a year and spending 40,000 in taxes, you're 668 00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:04,840 trying to live on 60, you're only stacking sats. 669 00:32:05,600 --> 00:32:07,640 If you do this, you can stack Bitcoin. 670 00:32:08,760 --> 00:32:11,120 Absolutely now. Which would you rather stack, 671 00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:15,040 stats or Bitcoin? Stack Bitcoin, man, I just I'm 672 00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:19,400 I'm I'm digesting. And, and if I might throw out, 673 00:32:19,920 --> 00:32:23,120 we might have a moral obligation to stop funding daycare centers. 674 00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:25,240 I mean, that was crazy, wasn't it? 675 00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:26,880 That was crazy. That was crazy. 676 00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:28,960 We might have a moral obligation to stop doing that. 677 00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:34,200 Why do you think Mark they why do you think it took a 23 year 678 00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:38,520 old kid with a camera with, you know, an everyday camera and an 679 00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:44,920 everyday, you know, like lapel Mike for him to uncover that 680 00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:49,800 amount of fraud where legacy media, literally some legacy 681 00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:52,560 media even denied it. They tried to discredit they're. 682 00:32:52,600 --> 00:32:54,400 Trying to cover it up. Why? 683 00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:57,240 Why do you think like where are we in the movie? 684 00:32:57,240 --> 00:33:01,160 Like I'm seeing like from my from my perspective, I'm seeing 685 00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:03,800 like this feels like end of empire type of days. 686 00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:06,760 Yeah, I mean, not to keep, I guess I kept going back to that. 687 00:33:06,760 --> 00:33:09,000 I didn't want to go down the rabbit hole, but to answer the 688 00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:12,960 question, I think to your point, end of empire days, I think and 689 00:33:12,960 --> 00:33:16,240 I maybe I'm hopefully thinking this is sort of the straw that 690 00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:20,200 breaks the camel's back. I think, I hope obviously legacy 691 00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:22,120 media has a million reasons why they wouldn't want to cover it. 692 00:33:22,120 --> 00:33:24,160 They need to protect that they're not interested. 693 00:33:24,160 --> 00:33:25,920 They only want to talk about the the current thing. 694 00:33:26,600 --> 00:33:29,720 They're really trying to use propaganda more than actual news 695 00:33:29,880 --> 00:33:30,640 journalism. There's a. 696 00:33:30,760 --> 00:33:32,680 Has it? Has it always been that way? 697 00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:36,040 No, certainly not. Certainly not I. 698 00:33:36,120 --> 00:33:37,640 Think. Or was it social media that 699 00:33:37,640 --> 00:33:41,240 uncovered that the legacy media isn't actually in the business 700 00:33:41,240 --> 00:33:44,600 of telling the news? No, I, I, I would think that 701 00:33:44,600 --> 00:33:45,600 back in. OK. 702 00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:48,680 So first of all, I think there used to be real journalists who 703 00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:50,400 would really go break stories. I do. 704 00:33:51,440 --> 00:33:54,000 There's a show on Netflix or it's on, it's on Apple TV. 705 00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:57,400 My wife's been getting me to watch and it's with Reese, Reese 706 00:33:57,400 --> 00:34:01,080 Witherspoon. And what's her name from friends 707 00:34:01,720 --> 00:34:03,600 anyway? But they're like morning show 708 00:34:03,600 --> 00:34:05,680 hosts or whatever. And the Reese Witherspoon 709 00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:07,680 character is like, she's like real abrasive. 710 00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:10,760 And I have to go for the truth. And and they're like, whoa, slow 711 00:34:10,760 --> 00:34:12,000 down. The network doesn't want that. 712 00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:13,360 She's like, I'm only going for the truth. 713 00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:17,000 What truth? I can say nice truth. 714 00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:19,360 I can say bad truth. Why does the truth have to be 715 00:34:19,360 --> 00:34:21,840 antagonistic? Like when I watch her character, 716 00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:24,520 I'm like, I understand that's true, but like you just don't 717 00:34:24,520 --> 00:34:25,880 know that's mean. Why would you say that? 718 00:34:25,880 --> 00:34:27,400 You could say truth here too, right? 719 00:34:27,400 --> 00:34:28,760 Like, So what story are you choosing? 720 00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:29,880 I guess is what I'm trying to say. 721 00:34:30,199 --> 00:34:32,719 So I do think that people used to do a lot of undercover 722 00:34:32,719 --> 00:34:35,199 journalism and used to expose things like that. 723 00:34:36,239 --> 00:34:38,639 Today, they're certainly not well or maybe they're trying to 724 00:34:38,639 --> 00:34:40,320 expose things that don't need to be exposed. 725 00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:42,320 But but today we are the news, right? 726 00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:45,280 It's been democratized. And I think that people are 727 00:34:45,280 --> 00:34:51,159 willing to you and I Americans, we're willing to take a lot of 728 00:34:51,159 --> 00:34:55,760 abuse and punishment. But man, when you, you, you saw 729 00:34:55,760 --> 00:34:58,600 Mike Green put out that whole article about the new poverty 730 00:34:58,600 --> 00:35:02,320 line is 140,000, which got a big uproar, right? 731 00:35:02,680 --> 00:35:05,200 And one of the reasons why 140 is a new poverty line is because 732 00:35:05,200 --> 00:35:08,240 it takes 2 incomes to get there. Two incomes then require what 733 00:35:08,880 --> 00:35:13,520 second car and daycare The single biggest, the single 734 00:35:13,520 --> 00:35:16,240 biggest expense 30. I believe what he said in the 735 00:35:16,240 --> 00:35:20,800 report fact checked me it was 32,000 a year for daycare. 736 00:35:21,080 --> 00:35:25,360 So the reason why the American people are in the poor house 140 737 00:35:25,360 --> 00:35:28,680 is the new poverty line is because daycare has become the 738 00:35:28,680 --> 00:35:31,080 single biggest expense they have to deal with. 739 00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:36,080 And then we see that the daycare fraud is going to illegal 740 00:35:36,080 --> 00:35:38,800 immigrants and funding overseas operations. 741 00:35:38,960 --> 00:35:41,520 That is like the ultimate kick in the nuts. 742 00:35:41,720 --> 00:35:45,160 It it totally is and I mean it, it makes you because you know, 743 00:35:45,160 --> 00:35:48,880 you bust your ass, you pay at least half your income. 744 00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:51,480 Again, I'm averaging here to the government. 745 00:35:51,880 --> 00:35:55,400 The government has the answer to no one right. 746 00:35:55,400 --> 00:35:57,360 If you don't pay your taxes, you're going to jail, right. 747 00:35:57,360 --> 00:36:00,560 Like you don't want to mess with the IRS, at least if if you live 748 00:36:00,560 --> 00:36:05,160 in the States and you know, but there's no accountability for 749 00:36:05,160 --> 00:36:07,960 them, right? Like they can just recklessly 750 00:36:07,960 --> 00:36:09,800 spend, they can recklessly debase. 751 00:36:10,640 --> 00:36:13,200 Elon tried to get in in there in the beginning of the year. 752 00:36:13,280 --> 00:36:15,440 They literally ran him out of town. 753 00:36:16,560 --> 00:36:20,400 It's an unfixable system, which is why what you're saying 754 00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:24,360 regarding the judo aspect of it resonates with me so much, 755 00:36:24,520 --> 00:36:26,880 right? Because again, you're using 756 00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:30,280 pre-existing tools that are already there. 757 00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:36,040 You're leveraging them to not only grow your stack, right? 758 00:36:36,120 --> 00:36:40,880 Not sell your Bitcoin, but you're actually speculatively 759 00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:43,800 attacking the system itself at simultaneously. 760 00:36:44,160 --> 00:36:47,520 Do you think that Michael Saylor was the first one that figured 761 00:36:47,520 --> 00:36:50,360 this out? And what do you think Bitcoiners 762 00:36:50,360 --> 00:36:54,720 misunderstand about what Sailors doing? 763 00:36:55,360 --> 00:36:57,040 Could you kind of oversimplify it? 764 00:36:57,080 --> 00:37:00,560 Oversimplify it? Could you walk us through what 765 00:37:00,560 --> 00:37:02,800 Sailor is doing with the Treasury strategy? 766 00:37:02,960 --> 00:37:05,520 Because what I got, and I love Danny Knowles, I love what 767 00:37:05,520 --> 00:37:10,240 Bitcoin did, amazing content. But I heard him. 768 00:37:10,240 --> 00:37:15,680 I heard Sailor get frustrated, but I heard the logic that he 769 00:37:15,680 --> 00:37:18,840 was using and it made sense. It made sense what he was 770 00:37:18,840 --> 00:37:21,600 talking about. So could you talk about that? 771 00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:24,640 Like what did Sailor discover? I would love to talk about that. 772 00:37:25,160 --> 00:37:27,960 So first of all, Sailor's not the first person that's done 773 00:37:27,960 --> 00:37:31,120 this. The the big story that I usually 774 00:37:31,120 --> 00:37:34,920 reference is Hugo Stenez from Weimar, Republic of Germany. 775 00:37:35,240 --> 00:37:37,840 And when they were going through hyperinflation, he used the 776 00:37:37,840 --> 00:37:40,000 failing currency to go buy hard assets. 777 00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:42,720 He bought factories, he bought all types of hard assets, and he 778 00:37:42,720 --> 00:37:44,200 became the richest man in Germany. 779 00:37:44,200 --> 00:37:45,680 I'm sure you've probably heard of Hugo Stenez. 780 00:37:46,120 --> 00:37:48,880 That was a speculative attack. Pierre Richard wrote about 781 00:37:49,320 --> 00:37:50,960 speculative attack, I think in 2014. 782 00:37:51,680 --> 00:37:54,760 So Sailor didn't invent it, obviously, but what he did 783 00:37:54,760 --> 00:37:57,320 invent was creating a Bitcoin treasury company. 784 00:37:57,320 --> 00:38:00,120 So using Bitcoin and a treasury to build asset bases. 785 00:38:00,280 --> 00:38:05,520 Now, the wealthy have been using assets for tax depreciation, to 786 00:38:05,600 --> 00:38:09,280 lower taxable income and to fund their life with debt for a long 787 00:38:09,280 --> 00:38:11,320 time. But it's Bitcoin that allows you 788 00:38:11,320 --> 00:38:13,320 and I to do that because typically to do it with 789 00:38:13,320 --> 00:38:15,080 traditional assets like real estate, we'd have to be 790 00:38:15,080 --> 00:38:17,760 billionaires because because with real estate, you only 791 00:38:17,760 --> 00:38:20,720 depreciate over 27 1/2 years and you and so you're only getting 792 00:38:20,720 --> 00:38:23,480 little bits of depreciation. So to get enough depreciation to 793 00:38:23,480 --> 00:38:26,600 write off an income of 100 or 200 grand, you need a lot. 794 00:38:26,880 --> 00:38:28,560 But Bitcoin allows us to do it very quickly. 795 00:38:28,560 --> 00:38:30,840 That's why it's the cheat code. Now back to sailor, I think. 796 00:38:31,240 --> 00:38:35,160 What if I summarize one big statement? 797 00:38:38,120 --> 00:38:41,000 Bitcoiners. Bitcoiners are very smart, and 798 00:38:41,000 --> 00:38:44,400 they very quickly caught on to the Fiat monetary system, the 799 00:38:44,400 --> 00:38:46,680 leverage in the system. They understand in what 800 00:38:46,680 --> 00:38:48,360 inflation really is, how it affects us. 801 00:38:48,360 --> 00:38:51,400 They understand that sound money can be, can fix. 802 00:38:51,400 --> 00:38:54,320 A lot of this societal pressures are breaking down because they 803 00:38:54,320 --> 00:38:56,920 understand that. What they don't understand is, 804 00:38:57,040 --> 00:38:59,520 is the financial system. They don't understand security 805 00:38:59,520 --> 00:39:01,920 analysis, They don't understand credit markets. 806 00:39:02,160 --> 00:39:04,720 They don't understand that. And So what happens is they 807 00:39:04,720 --> 00:39:08,480 bring a Bitcoin lens in and try to understand what he's doing in 808 00:39:08,480 --> 00:39:10,360 the credit and the equity markets. 809 00:39:10,360 --> 00:39:12,680 And then they can't comprehend it and they try to bring the 810 00:39:12,680 --> 00:39:15,920 Stay Humble Stack SAT's into that and it just doesn't work. 811 00:39:16,360 --> 00:39:18,200 It's like you're speaking in a different language. 812 00:39:18,320 --> 00:39:22,760 But I can, I can break it down And, and very simply, So what 813 00:39:22,760 --> 00:39:24,760 most bitcoiners don't understand, again, I made the 814 00:39:24,760 --> 00:39:27,800 comment here earlier, what a 70 year old person needs is income. 815 00:39:28,440 --> 00:39:32,040 They got to pay their bills. They can't huddle Bitcoin, they 816 00:39:32,040 --> 00:39:35,480 can't they, they're they're not going to be alive long enough to 817 00:39:35,480 --> 00:39:37,920 have Bitcoin compound. They got to pay their friggin 818 00:39:37,920 --> 00:39:41,320 bills, man. So most of the world needs 819 00:39:41,360 --> 00:39:43,880 income. There's a there's a massive 820 00:39:43,880 --> 00:39:47,640 demand for yield. The fixed income markets are the 821 00:39:47,640 --> 00:39:52,160 largest markets in the world. They dwarf commodity and equity 822 00:39:52,160 --> 00:39:53,960 markets. So you you know that. 823 00:39:54,080 --> 00:39:56,760 OK, so most Bitcoiners don't even understand what that means. 824 00:39:57,240 --> 00:39:59,720 Why would you need income? Just stack stats, bro. 825 00:40:00,120 --> 00:40:04,280 Dude, most people can't. OK, so most Bitcoiners can't 826 00:40:04,280 --> 00:40:07,720 even get past that. So if we can agree on that, the 827 00:40:07,720 --> 00:40:10,720 biggest markets in the world are fixed income and Bitcoin doesn't 828 00:40:10,720 --> 00:40:12,520 change that. A lot of times bitcoiners think 829 00:40:12,520 --> 00:40:15,360 that credit goes away. There's two types of people in 830 00:40:15,360 --> 00:40:16,960 the world. There's creators and there's 831 00:40:16,960 --> 00:40:19,600 consumers. Creators will always create more 832 00:40:19,600 --> 00:40:21,600 than they consume. That's why Warren Buffett stayed 833 00:40:21,600 --> 00:40:23,600 working active until he was 93 years old. 834 00:40:23,640 --> 00:40:26,320 He just creates. All billionaires are still 835 00:40:26,320 --> 00:40:29,280 working today, not because they don't have enough money, because 836 00:40:29,280 --> 00:40:31,360 they're creators. So there's always going to be 837 00:40:31,360 --> 00:40:35,880 people who have created more than they've consumed and want 838 00:40:35,880 --> 00:40:37,840 yield. And there's always going to be 839 00:40:37,840 --> 00:40:39,280 people that need to borrow money. 840 00:40:39,280 --> 00:40:41,240 So there's always going to be people that want to borrow, hey, 841 00:40:41,240 --> 00:40:44,160 I need to expand my factory. I need to build this new plant. 842 00:40:44,400 --> 00:40:46,880 There's always going to be a demand for borrowing and there's 843 00:40:46,880 --> 00:40:52,360 always going to be yield available that Bitcoin doesn't 844 00:40:52,360 --> 00:40:55,280 change that. Now, we would lend from our 845 00:40:55,280 --> 00:40:58,000 savings, not Fiat money that we print from thin air. 846 00:40:58,000 --> 00:41:01,080 Bitcoin changes that, right? So can we agree on that? 847 00:41:01,080 --> 00:41:04,280 OK, so #1 we've established the biggest market in the world is 848 00:41:04,280 --> 00:41:06,240 the fixed income market. There's always going to be a 849 00:41:06,240 --> 00:41:09,720 demand for yield. Now currently the bond market 850 00:41:10,000 --> 00:41:14,040 has created yield instruments on a dollar standard. 851 00:41:14,520 --> 00:41:18,040 What sailors doing is creating yield products on a Bitcoin 852 00:41:18,040 --> 00:41:21,720 standard. Now where where I believe some 853 00:41:21,720 --> 00:41:25,600 of the misunderstanding between Danny and and Sayler were, was 854 00:41:25,920 --> 00:41:28,240 what what? What Danny was asking I believe 855 00:41:28,240 --> 00:41:34,920 was 2 questions #1 when the if or when the M NAV drops below 1, 856 00:41:34,920 --> 00:41:37,160 why would it ever come back? I think that was his main 857 00:41:37,160 --> 00:41:40,640 question he was trying to get to and #2 why why? 858 00:41:40,640 --> 00:41:43,200 Why does there need to be more than one micro strategy? 859 00:41:43,320 --> 00:41:44,920 Like how many can there really be? 860 00:41:46,000 --> 00:41:47,920 Are those the two questions? Those are those are the two 861 00:41:47,920 --> 00:41:50,200 questions. I love the answer to the second 862 00:41:50,200 --> 00:41:52,600 one, which is like, look like if you're in Brazil, you don't have 863 00:41:52,600 --> 00:41:54,240 access to the American markets, right? 864 00:41:54,320 --> 00:41:56,880 That's that's like so small that's barely scratching the 865 00:41:56,880 --> 00:41:58,480 surface. So let me answer those two 866 00:41:58,480 --> 00:42:00,320 questions. I had it OK anyway, but let me. 867 00:42:00,320 --> 00:42:05,680 Let me ask, let me ask you a, a question before that Mark again. 868 00:42:05,680 --> 00:42:07,520 I've been in this industry for 10 years. 869 00:42:07,680 --> 00:42:11,560 I would like to think that I know what I'm doing, right. 870 00:42:11,560 --> 00:42:14,400 I have I have a business. I employ 15 people. 871 00:42:14,960 --> 00:42:17,960 Why is it so difficult for me to understand this? 872 00:42:18,120 --> 00:42:21,320 Yeah, because you've never 2 reasons. 873 00:42:21,320 --> 00:42:24,600 Number one, you've been living life on a pre programmed track 874 00:42:24,600 --> 00:42:27,360 that everybody goes down because since you were a little kid in 875 00:42:27,360 --> 00:42:29,600 school, they asked you what do you want to be when you grow up, 876 00:42:29,800 --> 00:42:32,000 not what do you want to. Do I dropped out of school and I 877 00:42:32,000 --> 00:42:34,200 became an entrepreneur at 22 years old? 878 00:42:34,200 --> 00:42:36,600 Yeah. So, so that, and then we were 879 00:42:36,600 --> 00:42:39,240 just taught to just save, save, save and then retire one day. 880 00:42:39,800 --> 00:42:43,720 And then the second reason is most of us don't have people 881 00:42:43,720 --> 00:42:46,120 around us that we can see doing something different. 882 00:42:46,520 --> 00:42:49,440 So the story of the four minute mile is that humans thought it 883 00:42:49,440 --> 00:42:50,880 was impossible to run a 4 minute mile. 884 00:42:51,360 --> 00:42:54,040 But as soon as one person did it in a short period of time, then 885 00:42:54,240 --> 00:42:55,360 multiple people started doing it. 886 00:42:55,680 --> 00:42:57,840 So the very fact that someone else could do it, the very fact 887 00:42:57,840 --> 00:42:59,960 that I can see someone else do it, then all of a sudden makes 888 00:42:59,960 --> 00:43:01,760 me believe I can do it. And most people just don't know 889 00:43:01,760 --> 00:43:03,920 billionaires and you just don't know how they build wealth. 890 00:43:04,120 --> 00:43:06,280 And so you just haven't seen it. Your parents are not good. 891 00:43:06,800 --> 00:43:08,080 I don't know your parent well. I just met you wrong. 892 00:43:08,520 --> 00:43:12,160 But like my my parents, most of our parents are not good role 893 00:43:12,160 --> 00:43:14,440 models for this. If you want to get in shape, you 894 00:43:14,440 --> 00:43:15,600 talk to somebody who's in good shape. 895 00:43:15,600 --> 00:43:17,240 And if you want to build wealth, you talk to someone who build 896 00:43:17,240 --> 00:43:18,360 wealth. And most of our parents are not 897 00:43:18,360 --> 00:43:20,000 that. So the model that's been set for 898 00:43:20,000 --> 00:43:22,960 us, the education system that trained us and what we've seen 899 00:43:22,960 --> 00:43:25,640 on TV, in the news, etcetera, has not trained us and we don't 900 00:43:25,640 --> 00:43:28,680 have access to the billionaires. Really where my mind started 901 00:43:28,680 --> 00:43:31,680 shifting on this was about 10 years ago, but where it really 902 00:43:31,680 --> 00:43:33,520 got kicked into gear was in 2021. 903 00:43:33,520 --> 00:43:36,600 I left California, went to Puerto Rico, partly because 904 00:43:36,600 --> 00:43:38,480 California was locked down. I was tired of being locked in. 905 00:43:38,480 --> 00:43:40,880 My own part Number 2 was the tax situation. 906 00:43:41,240 --> 00:43:44,040 And I was speaking a bunch of conferences and I spoke at 907 00:43:44,040 --> 00:43:46,720 several conferences with Robert Kiyosaki, you know, on the same 908 00:43:46,720 --> 00:43:49,120 stage, and he would call me out from stage. 909 00:43:49,360 --> 00:43:52,880 These guys like Peter Schiff and Mark Moss, they got to move to 910 00:43:53,120 --> 00:43:56,360 Puerto Rico to get out of taxes. Doesn't, don't, don't they know 911 00:43:56,360 --> 00:44:01,080 that we don't pay taxes? Donald Trump doesn't pay taxes. 912 00:44:01,080 --> 00:44:03,480 Robert Kiyosaki doesn't. And and I've got to know Robert 913 00:44:03,480 --> 00:44:04,680 Kiyosaki. Our friends are now. 914 00:44:04,960 --> 00:44:06,960 And I'm like at dinner, I'm like, OK, Robert, break it down, 915 00:44:06,960 --> 00:44:08,600 dude. Like break it down for me. 916 00:44:08,720 --> 00:44:13,440 Right, because they take loans against their assets at very low 917 00:44:13,440 --> 00:44:15,360 interest. They use depreciation to write 918 00:44:15,360 --> 00:44:19,520 off against the income. OK, but now, now that this is 919 00:44:19,520 --> 00:44:21,600 getting out of the bag, wait, no, let's take it back to the 920 00:44:21,640 --> 00:44:25,360 let's just go back to to to the Danny and say going back to the 921 00:44:25,360 --> 00:44:28,200 so the two key questions so do. You want to answer the M NAV 1st 922 00:44:28,200 --> 00:44:30,560 and then we'll get to why there can be 10,000 or 10 million of 923 00:44:30,560 --> 00:44:31,160 these. Companies, yeah. 924 00:44:31,160 --> 00:44:32,440 So let's talk about the M NAV first. 925 00:44:32,440 --> 00:44:33,560 Let's talk about the M NAV first. 926 00:44:33,600 --> 00:44:36,360 So first of all, there's a gross misunderstanding of the global 927 00:44:36,360 --> 00:44:39,120 financial system and different types of businesses and funds 928 00:44:39,120 --> 00:44:41,640 and all of these things. And so to ask that question 929 00:44:41,640 --> 00:44:45,280 shows that you don't, I want to be careful. 930 00:44:45,280 --> 00:44:46,600 I love Danny. I just ripped with Danny. 931 00:44:46,600 --> 00:44:49,800 We, we talked about this. Most people that ask that 932 00:44:49,800 --> 00:44:51,920 question don't really understand what they're asking. 933 00:44:51,920 --> 00:44:57,920 So 2 reasons why. First of all, why would it trade 934 00:44:57,920 --> 00:45:01,040 for less than 1 * M NAV? So there's a truth. 935 00:45:01,560 --> 00:45:05,680 If if you and I both buy one Bitcoin and Bitcoin goes up 5X, 936 00:45:05,920 --> 00:45:11,000 who makes more money? The person the same. 937 00:45:11,000 --> 00:45:12,440 We just, yeah, the same. Why? 938 00:45:12,440 --> 00:45:13,520 Why? Because we both bought one 939 00:45:13,520 --> 00:45:14,360 Bitcoin. Yeah, right. 940 00:45:14,760 --> 00:45:18,520 OK. If I borrowed 50% of my Bitcoin 941 00:45:18,520 --> 00:45:21,880 value and bought more Bitcoin and you didn't, and Bitcoin went 942 00:45:21,880 --> 00:45:24,800 up 5X, we made more money. The person who borrowed the 943 00:45:24,800 --> 00:45:25,920 leverage. Yeah, of course. 944 00:45:26,080 --> 00:45:30,000 So we can establish that if I use leverage, I will outperform 945 00:45:30,000 --> 00:45:31,640 people who don't. Yes. 946 00:45:31,840 --> 00:45:34,120 OK, So what's Sailor doing? Using. 947 00:45:34,120 --> 00:45:36,960 Leverage right? So his goal is to get a 30% 948 00:45:36,960 --> 00:45:39,680 leverage ratio, right? So he has his charts, he shows 949 00:45:39,840 --> 00:45:44,400 if Bitcoin averages a 30% ARR and I do a 30% ratio of leverage 950 00:45:44,400 --> 00:45:48,080 and I pay out no more than 10% coupon yield, we'll do a 2.8 951 00:45:48,120 --> 00:45:50,240 times factor. It's math. 952 00:45:50,440 --> 00:45:54,000 It's friggin math, bro. So if I, if I lever my assets up 953 00:45:54,000 --> 00:45:57,600 30% and Bitcoin goes up 30% and I don't pay more than 10% on the 954 00:45:57,600 --> 00:46:02,600 debt, I make a 3X return. So what he's doing is he's 955 00:46:02,600 --> 00:46:05,000 levering the position. That's why it will outperform 956 00:46:05,000 --> 00:46:08,400 Bitcoin. Now, why will the trade for more 957 00:46:08,400 --> 00:46:10,760 than one times? Then we have to also understand 958 00:46:10,760 --> 00:46:13,920 the actual financial system. So there are what's called close 959 00:46:13,920 --> 00:46:16,920 in funds. close in funds are sort of like ETFs. 960 00:46:16,920 --> 00:46:18,920 They're like wrappers, right? They buy assets. 961 00:46:19,160 --> 00:46:22,880 And then what I can do is I can buy into that basket of an ETFI 962 00:46:22,880 --> 00:46:26,120 can buy into that, that fund. There's about, there's about 963 00:46:26,120 --> 00:46:30,000 1000 funds in the United States that are sort of like these 964 00:46:30,000 --> 00:46:32,560 business Development Fund corporations or, or some sort of 965 00:46:32,640 --> 00:46:36,520 funds right now. Why, why is there 1000? 966 00:46:36,520 --> 00:46:38,520 Why isn't there just one? I don't understand that. 967 00:46:38,560 --> 00:46:40,200 Why do we need more than one fund? 968 00:46:40,800 --> 00:46:43,560 I so why do we need more than one treasury company? 969 00:46:43,560 --> 00:46:44,560 We're going to come back to that. 970 00:46:44,560 --> 00:46:46,960 But just that even the line of thinking, why would we need more 971 00:46:46,960 --> 00:46:49,680 than one fund? Why do we need 10,000 ETFs, 972 00:46:49,680 --> 00:46:51,760 Nico? Like, why isn't one ETF And 973 00:46:51,840 --> 00:46:56,560 like, OK, we'll come back. Why do we need 32 flavors of ice 974 00:46:56,560 --> 00:46:57,840 cream? Can't we just have vanilla? 975 00:46:58,000 --> 00:46:59,760 Actually? Why do we need 30 flavors of 976 00:46:59,760 --> 00:47:03,440 vanilla, old fashioned vanilla, vanilla bean? 977 00:47:03,440 --> 00:47:05,000 Like how many flavors of vanilla? 978 00:47:05,120 --> 00:47:06,680 Like, OK, we'll come back to that. 979 00:47:06,680 --> 00:47:08,520 But so there's all these types of funds. 980 00:47:08,520 --> 00:47:12,960 Now we have ETFSETFS are like a wrapper where I put a dollar in, 981 00:47:12,960 --> 00:47:16,160 they buy a dollar of Bitcoin. Now that that ETF should trade 982 00:47:16,160 --> 00:47:20,920 below 1 times NAV because I'm actually losing money because 983 00:47:20,920 --> 00:47:25,560 they're taking fees, they're doing no operations to grow 984 00:47:25,560 --> 00:47:26,960 that. OK. 985 00:47:27,480 --> 00:47:30,080 Now I don't think that's a good a parallel. 986 00:47:30,360 --> 00:47:34,360 A better parallel to compare a Bitcoin treasury company would 987 00:47:34,360 --> 00:47:37,640 be a bank is a better parallel. It's not the best, I'll tell you 988 00:47:37,640 --> 00:47:39,440 what the best is, but it's it's better. 989 00:47:39,440 --> 00:47:43,400 So what a bank does is a bank receives deposits, it pays you a 990 00:47:43,400 --> 00:47:46,440 yield for the deposits, it invests the money and it makes 991 00:47:46,440 --> 00:47:48,320 the difference. Sort of like what sailors doing, 992 00:47:48,320 --> 00:47:50,120 right? So he takes the money, he pays 993 00:47:50,120 --> 00:47:51,640 you a yield and he invests the money into Bitcoin. 994 00:47:51,680 --> 00:47:53,840 So sort of like a bank. Now, a bank would typically 995 00:47:53,840 --> 00:47:58,560 trade between 1.5 to 2 point fives in NAV Why? 996 00:47:58,680 --> 00:48:02,120 Because they have an operating business that can apply leverage 997 00:48:02,120 --> 00:48:04,680 depending on who the management team is and their connections 998 00:48:04,680 --> 00:48:06,880 and JP Morgan, whatever, it's going to trade at a higher 999 00:48:06,880 --> 00:48:09,240 premium. If it's a bad bank, a local 1000 00:48:09,240 --> 00:48:11,280 community bank that can't really do much, it'll trade a lower 1001 00:48:11,280 --> 00:48:12,680 premium. But it's always going to trade 1 1002 00:48:12,680 --> 00:48:15,240 1/2 to 2 1/2 times. So why would it ever trade for 1003 00:48:15,240 --> 00:48:18,160 more than one times? Because that's what these types 1004 00:48:18,160 --> 00:48:20,720 of businesses do. But a better, a better parallel 1005 00:48:20,720 --> 00:48:23,200 would be like another asset heavy type of business, like a 1006 00:48:23,640 --> 00:48:27,520 like a gold mining company. So gold mining company has gold 1007 00:48:27,520 --> 00:48:29,320 in the ground, it's assets, right? 1008 00:48:30,040 --> 00:48:32,360 But it's an operating business that's bringing the gold out of 1009 00:48:32,360 --> 00:48:34,040 the ground. But it gets a better premium 1010 00:48:34,040 --> 00:48:36,400 because it's got gold and gold's going to be worth more in the 1011 00:48:36,400 --> 00:48:38,880 future. So because gold will be worth 1012 00:48:38,880 --> 00:48:42,720 more in the future, I'm going to give it a 3 1/2 times. 1013 00:48:42,920 --> 00:48:44,200 Well, they, they don't trade it at MNAB. 1014 00:48:44,200 --> 00:48:46,400 They trade at a book value. It's the same thing. 1015 00:48:47,280 --> 00:48:49,920 So when I look, when I understand the world and I go, 1016 00:48:49,920 --> 00:48:52,400 well, what, what's a parallel? Well, I understand an asset 1017 00:48:52,400 --> 00:48:55,000 heavy business that uses the assets of the business and 1018 00:48:55,000 --> 00:48:57,920 provides some sort of operational leverage should 1019 00:48:57,920 --> 00:49:00,600 trade somewhere between a 2 1/2 to a 3 1/2 times. 1020 00:49:00,800 --> 00:49:03,800 So I believe that Bitcoin is better than gold. 1021 00:49:04,200 --> 00:49:06,880 I believe it's going to go up more than gold. 1022 00:49:07,000 --> 00:49:10,400 So if a gold company like Barrick or Newmont, for example, 1023 00:49:10,520 --> 00:49:13,200 if they're trading at 3 1/2 times, then certainly a Bitcoin 1024 00:49:13,200 --> 00:49:15,480 company should trade at 3 1/2 times, if not more. 1025 00:49:16,240 --> 00:49:18,400 When I did an interview with Saylor, we we went down this 1026 00:49:18,400 --> 00:49:19,600 path. He said that he thinks the 1027 00:49:19,600 --> 00:49:23,720 minimum should be a 3X, but then why does it go down to 1X or 1028 00:49:23,720 --> 00:49:25,720 below? Because it's a frigging market, 1029 00:49:25,720 --> 00:49:28,160 man. Like like an ETF or a closed end 1030 00:49:28,160 --> 00:49:30,480 fund should always trade a little bit below NAV because of 1031 00:49:30,480 --> 00:49:32,000 the fees. But sometimes they trade way 1032 00:49:32,000 --> 00:49:35,440 over because it's a market. And then people can arbitrage 1033 00:49:35,440 --> 00:49:37,360 the spread and they can do things like that. 1034 00:49:37,640 --> 00:49:39,240 So. So first number one, I would 1035 00:49:39,240 --> 00:49:42,920 just understand 1. So to recap #1 because there's 1036 00:49:42,920 --> 00:49:46,640 leverage that will outperform Bitcoin, that's just math #2 1037 00:49:46,640 --> 00:49:49,560 because of the operating company, the better the company, 1038 00:49:49,560 --> 00:49:52,200 the better the team, the more I believe in the safety and the 1039 00:49:52,200 --> 00:49:54,720 teams ability to use intelligent leverage without blowing up, I 1040 00:49:54,720 --> 00:49:57,480 get a premium. And if I compare it to a bank 2 1041 00:49:57,480 --> 00:50:01,880 X 2 1/2 X or a gold company three 3 1/2 X, that's where it 1042 00:50:01,880 --> 00:50:04,080 should be. You need liquidity without 1043 00:50:04,080 --> 00:50:07,760 having to sell your Bitcoin. For more than six years now, 1044 00:50:07,760 --> 00:50:11,800 Leaden has been the trusted choice for Bitcoin backed 1045 00:50:11,800 --> 00:50:16,280 lending with transparency, security and trust at their 1046 00:50:16,280 --> 00:50:18,960 core. I absolutely love these guys and 1047 00:50:18,960 --> 00:50:22,440 I personally have not only an account with them but also 1048 00:50:22,440 --> 00:50:24,280 alone. And some of the key features 1049 00:50:24,280 --> 00:50:27,320 that I love about Leaden is the fact that there are no monthly 1050 00:50:27,320 --> 00:50:30,360 payments. You pay at the end of the term. 1051 00:50:30,720 --> 00:50:35,280 You also have the ability to roll over the loan as well, and 1052 00:50:35,280 --> 00:50:38,240 you could pay it back whenever you want. 1053 00:50:38,320 --> 00:50:41,880 Essentially what they do is that they help their clients unlock 1054 00:50:41,880 --> 00:50:45,440 the liquidity of their BTC, allowing you to huddle while 1055 00:50:45,440 --> 00:50:48,200 still accessing the wealth of of your Bitcoin. 1056 00:50:48,280 --> 00:50:52,240 They've been battle tested with their focus on transparency, 1057 00:50:52,240 --> 00:50:55,280 security and trust, allowing them to build a. 1058 00:50:55,280 --> 00:50:59,200 Proven track record. Of client success and security, 1059 00:50:59,200 --> 00:51:02,840 helping 10s of thousands of clients harness the value of 1060 00:51:02,840 --> 00:51:06,480 their digital assets with confidence and Peace of Mind. 1061 00:51:06,720 --> 00:51:11,440 Learn more about what your BTC can do for you, check out 1062 00:51:11,440 --> 00:51:15,360 Leaden. Dot IO today so and as a 1063 00:51:15,360 --> 00:51:18,880 Bitcoiner advocate for self custody, Mark, you've known me a 1064 00:51:18,880 --> 00:51:22,520 long time now, right? I'm, you know, cookie cutter 1065 00:51:22,520 --> 00:51:24,680 Bitcoin right? Stay humble stack stats put into 1066 00:51:24,680 --> 00:51:27,160 self custody. I completely agree on the 1067 00:51:27,160 --> 00:51:30,840 leverage aspect. Why we saw this before sailors 1068 00:51:30,840 --> 00:51:32,840 been in this position. This is what people forget about 1069 00:51:32,840 --> 00:51:36,560 this cycle 2021-2022. What happened to micro strategy? 1070 00:51:37,120 --> 00:51:39,160 It got absolutely hammered right? 1071 00:51:39,160 --> 00:51:40,560 It reached an all time high I think. 1072 00:51:40,600 --> 00:51:44,000 It was down to .8, right? Yeah, it it it got hammered, the 1073 00:51:44,000 --> 00:51:47,160 stock got absolutely hammered. And then what happened? 1074 00:51:47,400 --> 00:51:49,440 What happened in this previous cycle? 1075 00:51:49,640 --> 00:51:53,520 It 30 XD. So I 100% agree with the 1076 00:51:53,520 --> 00:51:56,640 leverage aspect. I do think that once the price 1077 00:51:56,640 --> 00:52:00,920 starts picking up again, a micro strategy will outperform Bitcoin 1078 00:52:00,920 --> 00:52:02,560 because of the reasons that you laid out. 1079 00:52:02,760 --> 00:52:06,000 So that's topic one, that's question one, which is the M NAV 1080 00:52:06,000 --> 00:52:09,200 aspect. The topic too, which is what 1081 00:52:09,200 --> 00:52:11,800 Danny was asking, which is why are there so many Treasury 1082 00:52:11,800 --> 00:52:13,240 companies? Thousands or 10s of. 1083 00:52:13,240 --> 00:52:14,040 Thousands. Why is that? 1084 00:52:14,040 --> 00:52:17,440 Why is that necessary? So I do want to just say real 1085 00:52:17,440 --> 00:52:21,840 quickly, 2 two things. I had dinner with Sailor when I 1086 00:52:21,840 --> 00:52:25,400 was in Prague a few months ago. Awesome con conference, by the 1087 00:52:25,400 --> 00:52:26,840 way, Bitcoin Prague, go there if you can. 1088 00:52:27,960 --> 00:52:29,600 And two things that he said there. 1089 00:52:29,600 --> 00:52:33,160 So 1 he said that. People to well. 1090 00:52:33,840 --> 00:52:35,400 Let me answer the bitcoiner for it, he said. 1091 00:52:35,600 --> 00:52:39,600 I've never targeted bitcoiners. I I've never wanted Bitcoiners 1092 00:52:39,600 --> 00:52:41,480 to buy this. I've never received money from 1093 00:52:41,480 --> 00:52:44,440 bitcoiners as far as I know. And so let me ask you a question 1094 00:52:44,440 --> 00:52:48,680 first. BlackRock has now started saying 1095 00:52:48,680 --> 00:52:52,080 they may recommend Bitcoin for portfolios we see like big, big 1096 00:52:52,080 --> 00:52:54,160 names like Paul Tudor Jones talking about taking small 1097 00:52:54,160 --> 00:52:57,320 allocations. What percent of people do you 1098 00:52:57,320 --> 00:53:02,320 think have at least minimum of a 5% allocation to Bitcoin? 1099 00:53:02,720 --> 00:53:06,280 Extremely small minute. Like 1% or less than one, Yeah, 1100 00:53:06,360 --> 00:53:08,760 OK. And and that's to take a 5% 1101 00:53:08,760 --> 00:53:10,560 allocation which we would consider pretty bullish. 1102 00:53:10,560 --> 00:53:14,560 But Even so, even those people that would reach that point less 1103 00:53:14,560 --> 00:53:16,560 than 1%, those people are pretty bullish. 1104 00:53:16,560 --> 00:53:21,320 They did a 5%, they still have 95% not allocated to Bitcoin. 1105 00:53:21,520 --> 00:53:25,040 And the reason why I bring that up is because you and I, we say, 1106 00:53:25,040 --> 00:53:27,520 will this beat Bitcoin? And if not, then I'm not doing 1107 00:53:27,520 --> 00:53:28,680 it because Bitcoin is my hurdle rate. 1108 00:53:28,680 --> 00:53:31,400 And that is the right question. And I believe that we should all 1109 00:53:31,400 --> 00:53:33,920 be on that. Bitcoin is the hurdle rate. 1110 00:53:33,920 --> 00:53:36,040 If it can't make more than Bitcoin, then don't buy it. 1111 00:53:36,440 --> 00:53:39,440 OK? But less than 1% of people even 1112 00:53:39,440 --> 00:53:43,640 have 5%, which means 95% is not allocated to Bitcoin, which 1113 00:53:43,640 --> 00:53:45,840 means they're not asking will it be Bitcoin. 1114 00:53:46,040 --> 00:53:49,000 What they're asking is will it beat inflation or will it beat 1115 00:53:49,000 --> 00:53:51,480 the S&P 500? That's all they're asking. 1116 00:53:51,760 --> 00:53:56,520 And so for them MSTR or whatever Bitcoin treasury that you want 1117 00:53:56,520 --> 00:53:59,280 to fill in the blank with, they're not saying will this 1118 00:53:59,280 --> 00:54:01,760 beat Bitcoin yes or no that they're not asking that 1119 00:54:01,760 --> 00:54:03,640 question. So for again, we, we take this 1120 00:54:03,640 --> 00:54:06,040 Bitcoin or lens into it. These are not products for 1121 00:54:06,040 --> 00:54:07,640 Bitcoin. Yes, just buy Bitcoin and put in 1122 00:54:07,640 --> 00:54:09,040 cold storage. You don't need Bitcoin treasury 1123 00:54:09,040 --> 00:54:11,480 companies, but that's not who they're going after. 1124 00:54:11,640 --> 00:54:13,320 And then we'll get to the weather's 10,000 of them. 1125 00:54:13,640 --> 00:54:15,880 So oh, but I was going to say one more thing. 1126 00:54:15,880 --> 00:54:19,840 So Sailor said so he said that and then he also said what what 1127 00:54:19,840 --> 00:54:25,280 people want is MSTR to be a more volatile version of Bitcoin. 1128 00:54:25,280 --> 00:54:27,480 You hear him talk about volatility is vitality, right? 1129 00:54:27,480 --> 00:54:28,880 So they want it to be more volatile. 1130 00:54:29,080 --> 00:54:31,280 So Bitcoin or micro strategy is one of the most heavily traded 1131 00:54:31,280 --> 00:54:33,200 stocks. People love it because of the 1132 00:54:33,200 --> 00:54:35,400 the volatility, right? So professional investors love 1133 00:54:35,400 --> 00:54:37,640 volatility. Most people think volatility is 1134 00:54:37,640 --> 00:54:38,280 bad. They love it. 1135 00:54:38,600 --> 00:54:40,960 OK, So what they want is they want micro strategy to be two 1136 00:54:40,960 --> 00:54:43,560 times volatile to Bitcoin. So if Bitcoin, we talked about 1137 00:54:43,560 --> 00:54:45,240 it going up by two or three X in that right. 1138 00:54:45,360 --> 00:54:48,760 So if Bitcoin goes up 2X, then micro strategy should go up 4X, 1139 00:54:49,640 --> 00:54:51,720 right? But what it also means is if 1140 00:54:51,720 --> 00:54:55,200 micro, if Bitcoin goes down to X, then MicroStrategy goes down 1141 00:54:55,200 --> 00:54:56,440 to X. So he said, he gave us the 1142 00:54:56,440 --> 00:54:59,440 story. He said, imagine, imagine 1143 00:54:59,440 --> 00:55:03,440 tonight in my sleep, God comes to me and God says, hey, the 1144 00:55:03,440 --> 00:55:05,000 market's going to crash tomorrow. 1145 00:55:05,680 --> 00:55:09,960 And so I wake up and I hedge the positions of MicroStrategy and 1146 00:55:09,960 --> 00:55:12,040 sure enough, the markets crashed. 1147 00:55:12,360 --> 00:55:14,600 But MicroStrategy didn't because I hedge the positions, he said. 1148 00:55:14,600 --> 00:55:16,440 He said, that'd be great, right? Right. 1149 00:55:17,160 --> 00:55:20,880 No, it'd be terrible because the market needs me to be 1150 00:55:20,880 --> 00:55:23,240 dependable. The market wants me to trade 2 1151 00:55:23,240 --> 00:55:24,920 times. If somebody doesn't want 2 times 1152 00:55:24,920 --> 00:55:26,480 exposure, they'll hedge their position. 1153 00:55:26,480 --> 00:55:28,240 They don't want me to be irrational. 1154 00:55:28,440 --> 00:55:30,800 So I'll ask a rhetorical question. 1155 00:55:30,920 --> 00:55:33,680 How much did Bitcoin drop by about 30%? 1156 00:55:33,920 --> 00:55:39,440 How much did micro strategy up by 60% two times volatile to 1157 00:55:39,440 --> 00:55:41,520 Bitcoin? Isn't that exactly what we buy 1158 00:55:41,520 --> 00:55:45,000 it for a more volatile? So it's like like what did you 1159 00:55:45,000 --> 00:55:46,440 buy it for? What were you expecting? 1160 00:55:46,440 --> 00:55:48,160 It did exactly what you're expecting. 1161 00:55:48,800 --> 00:55:51,360 Anyway, that's a sidetrack. No, not a sidetrack. 1162 00:55:51,360 --> 00:55:54,360 I mean, it is a sidetrack, but it it hits the nail on the head. 1163 00:55:54,360 --> 00:55:58,160 And then also to me, it highlights that Bitcoin Twitter 1164 00:55:58,160 --> 00:56:02,000 is not reality, it's not the markets. 1165 00:56:02,000 --> 00:56:07,920 And I think us Bitcoiners, we, we operate in a little bit of an 1166 00:56:07,920 --> 00:56:12,480 echo chamber, right? I think the, the example that 1167 00:56:12,480 --> 00:56:15,240 that you laid out, which is like, look like this was a 1168 00:56:15,240 --> 00:56:18,440 product that was never designed for Bitcoiners. 1169 00:56:18,440 --> 00:56:21,800 This was a product that was designed to tap into different 1170 00:56:21,800 --> 00:56:25,760 pools of capital that otherwise would have no ability to get 1171 00:56:25,760 --> 00:56:29,640 exposure to Bitcoin whatsoever. And I love the comment that you 1172 00:56:29,720 --> 00:56:32,240 that you pointed out, which is like a lot of these people are 1173 00:56:32,240 --> 00:56:34,520 really not, they're not interested in outperforming 1174 00:56:34,520 --> 00:56:36,040 Bitcoin. What they're really interested 1175 00:56:36,040 --> 00:56:39,520 in is outperforming the S&P 500, which is why they would buy 1176 00:56:39,520 --> 00:56:41,360 something like MicroStrategy itself. 1177 00:56:41,600 --> 00:56:45,320 Now I do want to focus on the second question, which is why 1178 00:56:45,320 --> 00:56:47,520 are there so many, so many Treasury? 1179 00:56:48,520 --> 00:56:50,360 Yeah. And and what and is that 1180 00:56:50,360 --> 00:56:53,520 necessary and will it get to a point where we'll see a 1181 00:56:53,520 --> 00:56:54,720 consolidation? Yeah. 1182 00:56:54,880 --> 00:56:56,280 OK. So this is the this is the good 1183 00:56:56,280 --> 00:56:59,120 part. So we've already made the case 1184 00:56:59,120 --> 00:57:02,560 and we agree that the fixed income market, the demand for 1185 00:57:02,560 --> 00:57:05,080 yield is the largest market in the world. 1186 00:57:05,080 --> 00:57:10,840 There's about $300 trillion of fixed income, about 145 trillion 1187 00:57:10,840 --> 00:57:15,840 of that is tradable securitized fixed income, 145 trillion. 1188 00:57:17,080 --> 00:57:20,040 That's the demand for yield. And as I said, currently it's 1189 00:57:20,400 --> 00:57:22,240 the bonds are on a dollar standard. 1190 00:57:22,240 --> 00:57:25,440 So what sailors doing is he's taken Bitcoin and built up a 1191 00:57:25,440 --> 00:57:27,920 Bitcoin war chest and he's now that's what he calls digital 1192 00:57:28,160 --> 00:57:31,520 digital capital and he's created digital credit on top of that. 1193 00:57:31,720 --> 00:57:34,920 OK, So what he's done is launched preferred, right, 1194 00:57:34,920 --> 00:57:39,280 Preferred strike, strike stride and stretch by stretch is a 1195 00:57:39,520 --> 00:57:41,880 stretch is a they're all perpetual. 1196 00:57:42,360 --> 00:57:45,760 So they're not termed they're perpetual and they're different 1197 00:57:45,760 --> 00:57:49,160 and far as their seniority, the yield and then potential upside. 1198 00:57:49,280 --> 00:57:50,640 OK, I don't want to get in the details of that. 1199 00:57:50,640 --> 00:57:54,000 We can if you want, but they're preferred meaning their 1200 00:57:54,120 --> 00:57:57,880 equities, meaning their stocks. But most of the world that once 1201 00:57:57,880 --> 00:58:03,800 yield buys bonds. So funds that buy yield, buy 1202 00:58:03,800 --> 00:58:07,680 bonds by mandate, they can't buy equities. 1203 00:58:08,480 --> 00:58:12,760 So most of the market can't even buy what he offers. 1204 00:58:13,360 --> 00:58:18,200 So, so just by that alone, sailors, like he told me on the 1205 00:58:18,200 --> 00:58:21,040 interview with him, he said you could make $100 billion just 1206 00:58:21,040 --> 00:58:23,960 doing a 30 year bond. I'm not going to do it. 1207 00:58:24,320 --> 00:58:26,680 You should do it. You could make 100 million on a 1208 00:58:26,680 --> 00:58:28,280 10 year bond. I'm not going to do it. 1209 00:58:28,360 --> 00:58:30,040 You should do it. So let's just think about bond. 1210 00:58:30,120 --> 00:58:36,120 So Apple or Google sells a bond and then they use that money to 1211 00:58:36,120 --> 00:58:38,040 go build a new data center, right? 1212 00:58:38,840 --> 00:58:42,200 Apple has a bond, right? All these corporations say sell 1213 00:58:42,200 --> 00:58:43,000 bonds. That's debt. 1214 00:58:43,480 --> 00:58:52,320 There's 10,000 bonds available in the USI can buy an LA County 1215 00:58:52,760 --> 00:58:55,360 municipal bond. I can buy an Orange County 1216 00:58:55,520 --> 00:58:56,840 municipal bond. Why? 1217 00:58:56,840 --> 00:58:59,240 Why does LA have one in Orange County have one? 1218 00:58:59,440 --> 00:59:02,120 Why would I buy? Why would I buy an LA County 1219 00:59:02,120 --> 00:59:05,960 municipal bond or an LA County water municipal bond? 1220 00:59:07,240 --> 00:59:09,520 Why? Why do I need a LA county water 1221 00:59:09,520 --> 00:59:11,440 one and an LA county one and an Orange County? 1222 00:59:11,720 --> 00:59:13,920 Why? Why can't there just be an LA 1? 1223 00:59:14,160 --> 00:59:17,080 I don't understand. Each one has a different risk 1224 00:59:17,080 --> 00:59:20,160 return profile. They have different risk return 1225 00:59:20,160 --> 00:59:22,000 profile. I don't know, Orange County went 1226 00:59:22,000 --> 00:59:23,840 bankrupt once before. So I don't know if they're as 1227 00:59:23,840 --> 00:59:26,040 good, but they do pay a little bit better yield, but I'm going 1228 00:59:26,040 --> 00:59:27,040 to put a little bit towards that. 1229 00:59:27,040 --> 00:59:28,680 But I'm going to also get some LA County because I think 1230 00:59:28,680 --> 00:59:30,040 they're safer. So I'm going to do a little 1231 00:59:30,040 --> 00:59:31,520 elegant, but I also like the water. 1232 00:59:31,520 --> 00:59:34,000 So OK, I'm going to get a little of those, those couple bonds, 1233 00:59:34,200 --> 00:59:36,200 but oh, shoot. But the water ones only a five 1234 00:59:36,200 --> 00:59:37,680 year. I kind of want a 10 year. 1235 00:59:37,680 --> 00:59:41,760 So I'm going to get a little bit of the 10 year like pro like and 1236 00:59:41,760 --> 00:59:45,000 and and and so there's like there's 10. 1000 bonds man. 1237 00:59:45,000 --> 00:59:49,080 It's different flavors for what you're looking for. 1238 00:59:49,240 --> 00:59:53,080 For different use cases. So you want to fix your car? 1239 00:59:53,120 --> 00:59:55,000 I got a professional tool chest right here. 1240 00:59:55,200 --> 00:59:56,440 You're like, Mark, hand me a tool. 1241 00:59:57,960 --> 01:00:00,600 OK, Did you want a hammer or a screwdriver? 1242 01:00:00,600 --> 01:00:03,600 Like what do you want? So professional investors, 1243 01:00:04,400 --> 01:00:06,800 allocators. Think about, I'm trying to solve 1244 01:00:06,800 --> 01:00:08,440 a problem. What tools do I need to help me 1245 01:00:08,440 --> 01:00:10,800 solve the problem? And so then we build different 1246 01:00:10,800 --> 01:00:13,680 financial products to serve different use cases. 1247 01:00:13,680 --> 01:00:16,000 And again, most Bitcoiners just understand this and that's fine. 1248 01:00:16,320 --> 01:00:19,000 But like what? What they'd also to understand. 1249 01:00:19,000 --> 01:00:21,040 Most Bitcoiners probably caught this a little bit, but they 1250 01:00:21,040 --> 01:00:22,200 hadn't really thought deeply about this. 1251 01:00:22,200 --> 01:00:25,960 You remember when three banks collapsed in 2023 and what 1252 01:00:25,960 --> 01:00:29,680 caused their collapse was a duration mismatch, right? 1253 01:00:29,920 --> 01:00:33,560 So they were locked up in 30 year debt, but they needed short 1254 01:00:33,560 --> 01:00:36,040 term liquidity. So they had a, remember I talked 1255 01:00:36,040 --> 01:00:38,400 about 3 layers of liquidity. They had a they had a liquidity 1256 01:00:38,400 --> 01:00:40,480 mismatch. They needed more short term, but 1257 01:00:40,480 --> 01:00:43,040 they had it all long term. OK, so the way that the 1258 01:00:43,040 --> 01:00:47,160 financial world works is we time duration. 1259 01:00:47,920 --> 01:00:52,320 So most of the world has six month, five year, How long is 1260 01:00:52,320 --> 01:00:53,600 your auto loan? 5 or 6 years? 1261 01:00:53,600 --> 01:00:56,440 How long is your home loan? So we have term debt, OK. 1262 01:00:56,720 --> 01:01:01,080 And I match my liabilities in my assets and I try to match the 1263 01:01:01,080 --> 01:01:03,720 duration. So Sailor has perpetual 1264 01:01:03,720 --> 01:01:05,400 products. What do I do with that? 1265 01:01:06,400 --> 01:01:08,480 My debts, 10 years. I just need a 10 year bond. 1266 01:01:08,480 --> 01:01:11,560 I don't, I don't even know how to price or use a perpetual. 1267 01:01:11,680 --> 01:01:14,000 But it's not even a bond. It's a it's an equity. 1268 01:01:14,000 --> 01:01:17,600 I can't even use an equity. So like there's a market for 1269 01:01:17,600 --> 01:01:20,560 10,000 bonds. And that's just in the US alone. 1270 01:01:20,560 --> 01:01:23,960 We haven't even gotten to Brazil and the UK and every other 1271 01:01:23,960 --> 01:01:25,440 currency. We're just talking about the US. 1272 01:01:25,440 --> 01:01:27,960 There's 10,000. Let me give you another example 1273 01:01:27,960 --> 01:01:30,000 why there could be 20,000 or 50,000. 1274 01:01:30,240 --> 01:01:33,800 Nico, do you have insurance? Of course. 1275 01:01:34,040 --> 01:01:40,280 How many types of insurance? For the car, for the house, for. 1276 01:01:40,280 --> 01:01:43,680 Metal for disability. Why do you need all those types 1277 01:01:43,680 --> 01:01:44,960 of insurance? Why not just one? 1278 01:01:46,480 --> 01:01:48,960 Because the house insurance ain't going to insure. 1279 01:01:48,960 --> 01:01:53,120 So how many, how many companies in the world offer insurance? 1280 01:01:53,120 --> 01:01:54,440 So many. How many? 1281 01:01:54,440 --> 01:01:57,040 10s of thousands, Thousands and thousands? 1282 01:01:57,040 --> 01:02:00,000 Like AIG was like the too big to fail in 2008. 1283 01:02:00,000 --> 01:02:03,000 Like the biggest insurance. Warren Buffett has insurance 1284 01:02:03,000 --> 01:02:04,920 companies. Why not just Warren Buffett's 1285 01:02:04,920 --> 01:02:06,520 insurance company? Why do we need all those 1286 01:02:06,520 --> 01:02:09,160 insurance companies? We need competition. 1287 01:02:09,840 --> 01:02:11,920 But we need thousands of insurance companies. 1288 01:02:12,080 --> 01:02:14,240 Like why not just one insurance company I mean. 1289 01:02:14,480 --> 01:02:15,800 Because. Because they're going to. 1290 01:02:15,800 --> 01:02:19,280 Offer different prices, but Nico man, Warren Buffett's insurance 1291 01:02:19,280 --> 01:02:21,880 company is the biggest and it's the most well backed. 1292 01:02:21,880 --> 01:02:23,560 So why wouldn't everybody just use Warren Buffett? 1293 01:02:23,560 --> 01:02:27,280 Maybe not everybody could afford Warren Buffett's insurance. 1294 01:02:27,280 --> 01:02:28,920 I'm. Making my case, yeah, 1295 01:02:29,080 --> 01:02:31,880 absolutely. So there's 10,000 bonds. 1296 01:02:31,880 --> 01:02:35,080 And so each company can create a security. 1297 01:02:35,160 --> 01:02:36,480 They can. So right off the bat you have 1298 01:02:36,480 --> 01:02:41,200 equities and bonds right off the bat, then you have 100 different 1299 01:02:41,200 --> 01:02:44,000 terms of bonds. And then each of those bonds is 1300 01:02:44,000 --> 01:02:47,080 different risk return profiles. And I'm going to use them all 1301 01:02:47,080 --> 01:02:49,560 differently for different types of debt that I have and 1302 01:02:49,560 --> 01:02:51,520 different income needs. And then I lat so then we can 1303 01:02:51,520 --> 01:02:54,040 get into more complex financial engineering, but then we do 1304 01:02:54,040 --> 01:02:56,400 laddering of bonds. So then you start laddering 1305 01:02:56,400 --> 01:02:57,480 them. So they all come due at 1306 01:02:57,480 --> 01:02:59,480 different times. Like there's all types of 1307 01:02:59,480 --> 01:03:03,160 strategies and I need all these different tools and, and then 1308 01:03:03,160 --> 01:03:05,040 there's different products and there's insurance products and 1309 01:03:05,040 --> 01:03:08,000 there's, and then there's there's like insurance companies 1310 01:03:08,000 --> 01:03:10,600 sell income products. They're called annuities, but 1311 01:03:10,600 --> 01:03:14,400 that's different than a bond yield like like proud. 1312 01:03:15,720 --> 01:03:21,200 I mean, I think you answered it perfectly and the the first 1313 01:03:21,200 --> 01:03:23,720 part, you hit the nail on the head. 1314 01:03:23,760 --> 01:03:26,920 It's just, look, MicroStrategy is a form of leverage. 1315 01:03:26,960 --> 01:03:31,440 It's a leverage on Bitcoin, and leverage on Bitcoin means that 1316 01:03:31,440 --> 01:03:34,800 when price of Bitcoin goes up, everyone's celebrating, but when 1317 01:03:34,800 --> 01:03:37,720 the price of Bitcoin goes down, it's going to be twice as 1318 01:03:37,720 --> 01:03:39,240 painful. Leverage cuts both ways. 1319 01:03:39,440 --> 01:03:44,440 And the explanation on why there has to be so much, so many 1320 01:03:44,680 --> 01:03:46,920 Bitcoin treasury company, because everyone has a different 1321 01:03:46,920 --> 01:03:50,440 risk profile, everyone wants a different flavor, and there's 1322 01:03:50,440 --> 01:03:54,120 different opportunities in every single Bitcoin treasury company. 1323 01:03:54,280 --> 01:03:57,120 And not only that, there's the jurisdictional aspect of it, 1324 01:03:57,120 --> 01:03:58,880 right? If you live in the UK, if you 1325 01:03:58,880 --> 01:04:02,680 live in Brazil, you might not have access to American capital 1326 01:04:02,680 --> 01:04:05,320 markets, right? And not only that, the free 1327 01:04:05,320 --> 01:04:07,240 markets are going to do what free markets do best. 1328 01:04:07,280 --> 01:04:09,680 And the Bitcoin treasury companies that aren't run 1329 01:04:09,680 --> 01:04:11,800 properly are just going to go out of business. 1330 01:04:11,960 --> 01:04:14,800 But those are the ones that probably have bigger risks if 1331 01:04:14,800 --> 01:04:17,600 you want to buy them, right? So I think you answered that 1332 01:04:17,600 --> 01:04:20,800 question perfectly. And I think again, the clash 1333 01:04:20,800 --> 01:04:25,600 here, and This is why the that podcast was, I think it was like 1334 01:04:25,600 --> 01:04:29,760 a pivotal moment in Bitcoin's history because it was a reality 1335 01:04:29,760 --> 01:04:31,280 check. It was kind of like a reality 1336 01:04:31,280 --> 01:04:35,240 check of like what's going on and how Bitcoin has matured and 1337 01:04:35,240 --> 01:04:38,840 how Bitcoin has changed and how Bitcoin is becoming part of the 1338 01:04:38,840 --> 01:04:42,800 traditional financial markets. And again, for Bitcoiners that 1339 01:04:42,800 --> 01:04:47,360 have been used to living outside of that for most of the careers, 1340 01:04:47,360 --> 01:04:51,720 my, myself included, a lot of the stuff we just, we didn't 1341 01:04:51,720 --> 01:04:56,280 even, we didn't even realize it, it existed, nor did we realize 1342 01:04:56,520 --> 01:04:59,720 should we use this right? I've gotten to a point where 1343 01:04:59,720 --> 01:05:03,320 again, I have a business, I have to make payroll. 1344 01:05:03,520 --> 01:05:07,160 So barring against your Bitcoin that, that that's obvious, 1345 01:05:07,280 --> 01:05:08,680 right? It's, it's, it's an obvious 1346 01:05:08,680 --> 01:05:13,040 thing Bitcoin appreciates as time goes by, the amount of 1347 01:05:13,040 --> 01:05:16,440 collateral that you that you need in order to fund that loan. 1348 01:05:16,760 --> 01:05:19,520 Over time, you're going to be able to pull that collateral 1349 01:05:19,520 --> 01:05:23,400 out, right. So for me, it's, it's, it's 1350 01:05:23,400 --> 01:05:26,760 become obvious in that sense, but I think you're much deeper 1351 01:05:26,760 --> 01:05:30,320 down the rabbit hole in terms of the, the system that you've 1352 01:05:30,320 --> 01:05:36,200 built and for, for basically for you to accumulate more Bitcoin, 1353 01:05:36,200 --> 01:05:38,400 for you not to have to sell your Bitcoin. 1354 01:05:38,680 --> 01:05:41,640 And that to me is fascinating. And when I asked you the 1355 01:05:41,640 --> 01:05:44,800 question, like, what do people need to do to get started, you 1356 01:05:44,800 --> 01:05:46,680 basically said like, look, you just borrow against your 1357 01:05:46,680 --> 01:05:48,280 Bitcoin. But it's not as simple as that. 1358 01:05:48,440 --> 01:05:50,240 I said. I said use credit to offset your 1359 01:05:50,240 --> 01:05:55,440 taxes first. So could you if, if one O 1 1360 01:05:55,560 --> 01:05:59,000 they're tuning into this podcast like Mark Moss is literally 1361 01:05:59,000 --> 01:06:02,280 talking about a perpetual Bitcoin machine, what the F is 1362 01:06:02,280 --> 01:06:04,440 he talking about? Could you break it down? 1363 01:06:04,440 --> 01:06:07,840 Like what is step number one? Then what is step #2? 1364 01:06:07,880 --> 01:06:10,240 Then what is step #3, etcetera, etcetera. 1365 01:06:10,640 --> 01:06:13,720 So I'm going to give you step by step from the beginner level, 1366 01:06:13,720 --> 01:06:16,000 but what I want to do is tell you where the end goal is first. 1367 01:06:16,080 --> 01:06:17,920 So I'll give you the goal and then I'm going to build the map. 1368 01:06:17,920 --> 01:06:21,280 So the end goal is get to a point where 100% of my income 1369 01:06:21,400 --> 01:06:26,000 buys Bitcoin, 100% of my income buys Bitcoin tax free, so I'm 1370 01:06:26,000 --> 01:06:29,640 not leaking 40% to taxes, 100% goes into Bitcoin, which means I 1371 01:06:29,640 --> 01:06:33,000 can buy more Bitcoin. And then what I'm doing is I'm 1372 01:06:33,240 --> 01:06:37,920 using debt off of my income to live off of and that way I don't 1373 01:06:37,920 --> 01:06:41,560 pay tax on that money either all right so that's the end goal IA 1374 01:06:42,080 --> 01:06:44,920 100% of my money goes into assets and my assets pay for my 1375 01:06:44,920 --> 01:06:47,000 life. All right so that's the end 1376 01:06:47,000 --> 01:06:47,840 goal. How do we get there? 1377 01:06:48,680 --> 01:06:53,480 Step #1 Because I'm staying humble, I'm only able to stack 1378 01:06:53,480 --> 01:06:56,480 sets because, right, that's kind of funny. 1379 01:06:56,600 --> 01:06:59,160 Because I'm staying humble, I can only stack sets. 1380 01:06:59,360 --> 01:07:00,640 If we get a little more aggressive, we can stack 1381 01:07:00,640 --> 01:07:01,200 Bitcoin. So what? 1382 01:07:01,200 --> 01:07:05,320 Step number one is I have some credit available to me from 1383 01:07:05,320 --> 01:07:07,440 somewhere, whether I borrow against my existing Bitcoin or I 1384 01:07:07,440 --> 01:07:09,440 go get a credit line or credit card or whatever. 1385 01:07:09,520 --> 01:07:11,520 I borrow from a friend or family, I get a home equity 1386 01:07:11,520 --> 01:07:14,600 line, whatever, I get credit. First thing I do is I buy 1387 01:07:14,600 --> 01:07:18,880 something for tax depreciation. It could be a piece of real 1388 01:07:18,880 --> 01:07:23,000 estate, it could be a solar credit deal, it could be an oil 1389 01:07:23,000 --> 01:07:25,400 and gas deal, or it could be a Bitcoin miner. 1390 01:07:25,880 --> 01:07:28,000 OK, so first thing I'm going to do is I'm going to borrow a 1391 01:07:28,000 --> 01:07:29,840 little bit of money off a credit card or credit line. 1392 01:07:30,000 --> 01:07:31,880 I'm going to buy some Bitcoin miners or some sort of 1393 01:07:31,880 --> 01:07:34,880 depreciation and I'm going to offset some of my income, 1394 01:07:34,880 --> 01:07:36,680 whatever I can afford. If I can get 20,000 of credit, 1395 01:07:36,680 --> 01:07:40,800 I'm going to offset $20,000 and then let's say so $100,000 1396 01:07:41,480 --> 01:07:44,440 paying 40,000 to tax. I have 60,000 leftover. 1397 01:07:44,440 --> 01:07:48,120 Now instead of paying 40,000 tax, I only pay 20,000 tax. 1398 01:07:48,120 --> 01:07:51,160 So I, I made an extra 20 grand that was normally going to go to 1399 01:07:51,160 --> 01:07:52,040 the government. Now I got to keep. 1400 01:07:52,080 --> 01:07:54,400 So step number one credit to get depreciation. 1401 01:07:54,400 --> 01:07:58,040 I end up with more money. I take that more money and I buy 1402 01:07:58,040 --> 01:08:00,520 more Bitcoin. I buy more assets. 1403 01:08:01,640 --> 01:08:06,720 Now I rinse and repeat on that until the asset base gets a 1404 01:08:06,720 --> 01:08:10,720 little bit bigger, that now I can continue to borrow against 1405 01:08:10,720 --> 01:08:14,640 my credit lines and my asset base to offset my income and 1406 01:08:14,640 --> 01:08:17,640 also to start augmenting my lifestyle spending. 1407 01:08:17,880 --> 01:08:21,200 So now it's offsetting my my taxable income and it's also 1408 01:08:21,200 --> 01:08:25,920 paying part of my bills. And I continue in that hamster 1409 01:08:25,920 --> 01:08:28,920 wheel in that rinse and repeat flywheel until the asset base 1410 01:08:28,920 --> 01:08:34,120 gets big enough to now buy depreciation to offset 100% of 1411 01:08:34,120 --> 01:08:37,359 my income and offset 100% of my living expenses. 1412 01:08:38,160 --> 01:08:40,120 And at that point, I've broken free of the system. 1413 01:08:40,120 --> 01:08:43,880 I'm out of the rat race because remember, my income cannot keep 1414 01:08:43,880 --> 01:08:47,600 up with the pace of inflation, but Bitcoin is beating the pace 1415 01:08:47,600 --> 01:08:50,120 of inflation. So once I start with the 1416 01:08:50,120 --> 01:08:54,560 depreciation to get more money right now, and I continue doing 1417 01:08:54,560 --> 01:08:57,760 that until I've broken free reach escape velocity and at 1418 01:08:57,760 --> 01:09:01,560 that point my wealth will compound faster than the rate of 1419 01:09:01,560 --> 01:09:05,279 appreciation, faster than my rate of spending and I will 1420 01:09:05,279 --> 01:09:07,479 never run out of Bitcoin. And then back to the first 1421 01:09:07,479 --> 01:09:10,080 question you asked me. So now that I've created this 1422 01:09:10,080 --> 01:09:14,600 system where every year gets me depreciation and then 1423 01:09:14,600 --> 01:09:16,920 depreciation allows me to put more cash into the assets and 1424 01:09:16,920 --> 01:09:20,399 the assets pay for my life. Once I've built that system out 1425 01:09:20,399 --> 01:09:23,160 and it's working, it's functioning, it's mapped out, 1426 01:09:23,160 --> 01:09:26,120 it's written on paper, the accounts are up, that's the 1427 01:09:26,120 --> 01:09:31,319 system I passed to my kids. If I died today, if you died 1428 01:09:31,319 --> 01:09:36,240 today, heaven forbid, I hate to say that if I died today, my 1429 01:09:36,240 --> 01:09:39,319 wife, or if my wife and I died, my kids would get my assets, 1430 01:09:40,439 --> 01:09:44,000 what would they do Now? We have like a trust and we have 1431 01:09:44,000 --> 01:09:45,520 a will. So like they can call the 1432 01:09:45,520 --> 01:09:47,640 attorney and whatever. So the attorneys like, cool, you 1433 01:09:47,640 --> 01:09:50,680 got all this money, but what do they do with all that money, 1434 01:09:50,880 --> 01:09:53,080 which is why they go broke. And sure, I could. 1435 01:09:53,279 --> 01:09:56,080 Well, I want to teach my kids about business and I went, I can 1436 01:09:56,080 --> 01:09:58,440 do that. But why not just pass the system 1437 01:09:58,440 --> 01:10:00,240 down that just automatically runs for them? 1438 01:10:01,200 --> 01:10:05,840 Absolutely. So all of this system requires a 1439 01:10:05,840 --> 01:10:10,360 form of leverage, right? You're leveraging because and 1440 01:10:10,360 --> 01:10:14,760 you've said that the real enemy isn't leverage, it's for 1441 01:10:14,760 --> 01:10:17,720 selling. What actually causes for selling 1442 01:10:17,720 --> 01:10:19,560 in practice? Yeah, Warren Buffett said that 1443 01:10:19,560 --> 01:10:21,440 number one rule of investing is don't lose money. 1444 01:10:22,280 --> 01:10:24,440 He said #2 rules don't forget number one. 1445 01:10:24,560 --> 01:10:26,360 I think it's different. I think number one rule 1446 01:10:26,360 --> 01:10:28,920 investing is never be a force seller. 1447 01:10:29,720 --> 01:10:33,440 So a force seller means right. So because assets are volatile, 1448 01:10:34,400 --> 01:10:37,760 what happens is let's say like in in the year 2008, I had sold 1449 01:10:37,760 --> 01:10:39,840 a couple businesses I had, I bought, I put everything into 1450 01:10:39,840 --> 01:10:41,600 real estate in Southern California. 1451 01:10:41,600 --> 01:10:45,200 Real estate dropped 60%. I couldn't afford to cover the 1452 01:10:45,200 --> 01:10:47,520 payment on those and I had to give some of those properties 1453 01:10:47,520 --> 01:10:48,680 back. Short sale, I'm giving back to 1454 01:10:48,680 --> 01:10:51,320 the bank or whatever, right? So I was a force seller at the 1455 01:10:51,320 --> 01:10:54,440 bottom of the market. If I could have waited a couple 1456 01:10:54,440 --> 01:10:56,640 years, the property values came back up. 1457 01:10:56,640 --> 01:11:00,080 If I could have just waited a couple more years, I would have 1458 01:11:00,080 --> 01:11:02,760 kept was $20 million in real estate. 1459 01:11:02,760 --> 01:11:04,880 I would still had that now have been worth even more, but I 1460 01:11:04,880 --> 01:11:06,880 couldn't. I was a forced seller at the 1461 01:11:06,880 --> 01:11:11,440 bottom because I didn't have the liquidity available to ride the 1462 01:11:11,440 --> 01:11:14,680 volatility. So we understand that Bitcoin is 1463 01:11:14,680 --> 01:11:16,760 a volatile asset, which is what we want. 1464 01:11:16,760 --> 01:11:20,640 I want Bitcoin to go volatile to the upside, but I understand 1465 01:11:20,640 --> 01:11:23,320 that it ebbs and flows. So I need to have enough 1466 01:11:23,320 --> 01:11:27,440 liquidity to ride the volatility without being a for seller. 1467 01:11:27,440 --> 01:11:30,200 Back to Sailor as an example. You see all the pundits on 1468 01:11:30,200 --> 01:11:32,400 Twitter that don't want to talk about, oh, if Bitcoin drops to 1469 01:11:32,400 --> 01:11:34,040 this price, he's going to be a for seller. 1470 01:11:34,360 --> 01:11:36,440 He's like, no, I'm not. There's nothing that's going to 1471 01:11:36,440 --> 01:11:39,080 force me to sell. So that's what I mean by being a 1472 01:11:39,080 --> 01:11:42,440 for seller. So what mental framework do 1473 01:11:42,440 --> 01:11:46,400 listeners need to adopt if they want Bitcoin to fund their life 1474 01:11:46,480 --> 01:11:51,000 without killing the compounding? That's a good question. 1475 01:11:53,320 --> 01:11:56,520 Unfortunately, identity politics and just the education system 1476 01:11:56,520 --> 01:11:59,560 today has got us thinking in just like victim mentality 1477 01:11:59,560 --> 01:12:02,240 mindset. So I think a lot of people will 1478 01:12:02,240 --> 01:12:05,560 go, that sounds too risky, that sounds too dangerous, I could 1479 01:12:05,560 --> 01:12:07,640 get it wrong. I don't need to do that. 1480 01:12:07,640 --> 01:12:09,480 I couldn't do that. It sounds too complex. 1481 01:12:09,480 --> 01:12:11,360 And so it's sort of like victim mentality. 1482 01:12:11,360 --> 01:12:14,040 So what I would probably urge people to do is think of the 1483 01:12:14,040 --> 01:12:17,880 four minute mile. The very fact that other people 1484 01:12:17,880 --> 01:12:20,600 are doing it means that you can do the very fact of that. 1485 01:12:21,120 --> 01:12:23,560 And so all we have to do is find other people that we can see a 1486 01:12:23,560 --> 01:12:26,040 model of, and then we just model those things. 1487 01:12:26,120 --> 01:12:27,560 And so that would be the mindset. 1488 01:12:27,960 --> 01:12:31,560 The other mindset, I would say, is that whether you take action 1489 01:12:31,560 --> 01:12:34,560 and do this or not, either way you've taken action. 1490 01:12:34,560 --> 01:12:36,880 You've taken action to not do it or do it. 1491 01:12:37,160 --> 01:12:41,760 And there is no absence of risk. If I do it, it's risky. 1492 01:12:41,760 --> 01:12:43,760 And if I don't do it, it's also risky. 1493 01:12:44,000 --> 01:12:46,760 And so really it's about which risk do I choose and how do I 1494 01:12:46,760 --> 01:12:49,840 mitigate either of those. And so I would just say you 1495 01:12:49,840 --> 01:12:53,680 don't have to be risky. You can use little bits of 1496 01:12:53,680 --> 01:12:55,560 leverage. I don't have to go surf 30 foot 1497 01:12:55,560 --> 01:12:57,280 pipeline. I can just go out to 1 foot 1498 01:12:57,280 --> 01:13:00,920 waves here on Miami Beach and that's way less risky and I'm 1499 01:13:00,920 --> 01:13:02,560 getting a little bit of leverage, a little bit. 1500 01:13:02,560 --> 01:13:05,120 The chance of me drowning in knee deep water in Miami Beach 1501 01:13:05,120 --> 01:13:07,120 is very low. If I go into 30 foot waves in 1502 01:13:07,120 --> 01:13:09,600 pipeline, it's higher. And so then you can choose the 1503 01:13:09,600 --> 01:13:12,240 level of risk that you want. It's not like an all or nothing 1504 01:13:12,240 --> 01:13:15,320 thing. It's like sailors goal is a 30% 1505 01:13:15,320 --> 01:13:17,400 leverage. Maybe you target A5? 1506 01:13:18,000 --> 01:13:21,400 I want to give a shout out to our partnersat123.com 1507 01:13:21,520 --> 01:13:24,080 Sovereignty isn't just about your money, it's about your 1508 01:13:24,080 --> 01:13:27,160 communications, too. When the grid goes down, most 1509 01:13:27,160 --> 01:13:29,520 people go dark. Cell towers fail, and 1510 01:13:29,520 --> 01:13:31,640 hurricanes, cyber attacks and blackouts. 1511 01:13:31,680 --> 01:13:33,680 But satellite phones? They don't rely on local 1512 01:13:33,680 --> 01:13:37,120 infrastructure. Iridium has 77 satellites in 1513 01:13:37,120 --> 01:13:40,400 orbit, giving you a Direct Line anywhere in the US, even 1514 01:13:40,400 --> 01:13:42,520 offshore. If you hold your own Bitcoin 1515 01:13:42,520 --> 01:13:47,240 keys, you should hold your own commstoosat123.com also has 1516 01:13:47,280 --> 01:13:49,600 everything you need need to start building your Bitcoin. 1517 01:13:49,600 --> 01:13:53,760 Citadel, Starlink, battery backups, Faraday bags to protect 1518 01:13:53,760 --> 01:13:56,000 your hardware wallets and much much more. 1519 01:13:56,080 --> 01:14:00,120 It's a one stop shop for anyone serious about resilience and off 1520 01:14:00,120 --> 01:14:02,480 grid independence. Stay connected, stay 1521 01:14:02,480 --> 01:14:07,400 independent, stay sovereign. Go to sat123.com/simply today 1522 01:14:07,560 --> 01:14:11,960 and use promo code simply to get 15% off anything on the store 1523 01:14:12,080 --> 01:14:15,160 mark. Let's talk about 2025, right? 1524 01:14:16,160 --> 01:14:20,880 This was what I call the year of victory for Peter Schiff. 1525 01:14:22,480 --> 01:14:25,760 You know, this was like one of the only Thanksgivings I can 1526 01:14:25,760 --> 01:14:29,520 remember where you know that you know that great uncle that you 1527 01:14:29,520 --> 01:14:32,960 have that grandfather, you know, is coming to you and said, ha, 1528 01:14:33,360 --> 01:14:39,280 you know, the SNP gold silver took Bitcoin to school. 1529 01:14:39,480 --> 01:14:43,360 Everybody was expecting this, this this amazing year. 1530 01:14:43,600 --> 01:14:46,560 The Trump administration coming in the first pro Bitcoin 1531 01:14:46,560 --> 01:14:50,400 president, a more positive regulatory environment. 1532 01:14:50,720 --> 01:14:55,320 What the hell happened? Yeah, good question. 1533 01:14:55,320 --> 01:14:58,640 So what I would say, and actually this is the opening 1534 01:14:58,640 --> 01:15:00,720 that Danny started with with Michael Saylor and I think 1535 01:15:00,720 --> 01:15:03,000 that's what put set the tone for the whole interview. 1536 01:15:03,440 --> 01:15:06,400 And he answered, he opened with almost the same question, but he 1537 01:15:06,400 --> 01:15:09,760 framed it different. He said, so 2025 was a pretty 1538 01:15:09,760 --> 01:15:12,360 disappointing year for Bitcoin. And Michael say it was like 1539 01:15:12,360 --> 01:15:16,160 disappointing what? So Warren Buffett would say that 1540 01:15:16,160 --> 01:15:18,000 price is what you pay, value is what you get. 1541 01:15:18,560 --> 01:15:21,480 Warren Buffett would say that I've never bought a stock. 1542 01:15:21,840 --> 01:15:24,560 I buy companies, the companies happened to trade public, but I 1543 01:15:24,560 --> 01:15:27,400 didn't buy the stock. He says don't ever buy one thing 1544 01:15:27,400 --> 01:15:28,880 for a day that you wouldn't hold for 10 years. 1545 01:15:28,880 --> 01:15:31,240 So what does all that mean? And, and to answer your 1546 01:15:31,240 --> 01:15:34,880 question, he doesn't buy this, he doesn't buy the the stock, he 1547 01:15:34,880 --> 01:15:37,520 buys the company. So I don't look at the the the 1548 01:15:37,520 --> 01:15:39,360 price of the stock. I'm not looking at the daily 1549 01:15:39,360 --> 01:15:41,280 mark to market price. I'm looking at what the company 1550 01:15:41,280 --> 01:15:43,080 is doing. I want to understand the value 1551 01:15:43,080 --> 01:15:45,520 of the company because I believe that the company is creating 1552 01:15:45,520 --> 01:15:47,680 value over the long term, the stock price will adjust. 1553 01:15:48,360 --> 01:15:51,360 So when we look at Bitcoin price, maybe you're a little 1554 01:15:51,360 --> 01:15:53,680 disappointed partly because you brought your own preconceived 1555 01:15:53,680 --> 01:15:55,680 notions into that of where you think that price target would 1556 01:15:55,680 --> 01:15:57,680 be. Now, as Sailor pointed out on 1557 01:15:57,680 --> 01:16:00,080 Danny, so I'm not, you know, I'm repeating for what he said, but 1558 01:16:00,160 --> 01:16:02,520 it's true. Obviously we made a new all time 1559 01:16:02,520 --> 01:16:05,560 high in quarter 4. That's pretty much the end of 1560 01:16:05,560 --> 01:16:08,080 the year. Yes, we ended December down, but 1561 01:16:08,080 --> 01:16:10,400 in quarter four we made a new all time high. 1562 01:16:10,440 --> 01:16:13,280 So like, come on guys. Like really number one. 1563 01:16:13,520 --> 01:16:15,480 But #2 back to the Warren Buffett lens. 1564 01:16:15,480 --> 01:16:18,320 If we look at the value, the underlying value, we saw a 1565 01:16:19,200 --> 01:16:22,920 massive change in hands of Bitcoin ownership, which I don't 1566 01:16:22,920 --> 01:16:26,200 like, but it's unfortunate. It's an important necessary, we, 1567 01:16:26,240 --> 01:16:31,960 we shifted massive from weak retail hands to cold storage 1568 01:16:31,960 --> 01:16:34,120 institutional hands. And I want Bitcoin for the 1569 01:16:34,120 --> 01:16:36,120 people. So I'm not happy about it, but 1570 01:16:36,120 --> 01:16:37,720 it's also part of the process of this. 1571 01:16:37,720 --> 01:16:41,920 And So what we saw was this consolidation and a transfer 1572 01:16:41,920 --> 01:16:44,320 from weak hands to strong hands. So that's positive number one. 1573 01:16:44,560 --> 01:16:49,120 Number two, you mentioned we saw a 180° shift in the political 1574 01:16:49,120 --> 01:16:51,960 winds 100 we went from the Biden administration Operation Choke 1575 01:16:51,960 --> 01:16:54,240 .2 point O or three-point O or wherever on at this point right 1576 01:16:54,240 --> 01:16:56,000 now. Elizabeth Warren. 1577 01:16:56,000 --> 01:16:58,000 I mean, if Kamala would have won, who knows what would have 1578 01:16:58,000 --> 01:17:01,280 happened. And now we have a pro Bitcoin 1579 01:17:01,280 --> 01:17:04,600 administration, the Trump, I mean Trump who has controlling 1580 01:17:04,600 --> 01:17:09,000 interests of DJDJT media has been buying billions of dollars 1581 01:17:09,000 --> 01:17:11,120 of Bitcoin. His sons are not following in 1582 01:17:11,120 --> 01:17:12,920 his footsteps and building a real estate empire. 1583 01:17:12,920 --> 01:17:14,440 His sons are building Bitcoin empires. 1584 01:17:14,760 --> 01:17:16,760 Like we couldn't have a different shift. 1585 01:17:16,760 --> 01:17:21,760 So that is massively bullish. If you look at the number of or 1586 01:17:22,240 --> 01:17:24,960 let's talk about mining, if you look at the hash power of the 1587 01:17:24,960 --> 01:17:28,640 network, it's never been higher. It's never been more secure. 1588 01:17:29,400 --> 01:17:32,680 I mean, so from so many benchmarks, we can see that the 1589 01:17:32,880 --> 01:17:36,280 that Bitcoin itself, the value has never been better. 1590 01:17:36,280 --> 01:17:39,040 It was a massive year. Maybe the rice should have got 1591 01:17:39,040 --> 01:17:42,800 150, maybe it maybe at 1:26 it was a little low. 1592 01:17:42,840 --> 01:17:44,280 I mean, maybe it should be at 176. 1593 01:17:44,280 --> 01:17:45,720 I don't know what number you had in your mind. 1594 01:17:45,960 --> 01:17:47,880 So maybe the price should have been a little bit higher. 1595 01:17:47,880 --> 01:17:50,440 But I think when I look at the underlying fundamentals, they've 1596 01:17:50,440 --> 01:17:52,560 never been better. Not to bounce back, but just for 1597 01:17:52,560 --> 01:17:55,400 a second with the Bitcoin treasury companies, Metaplanet 1598 01:17:55,480 --> 01:17:58,200 is way down, but it's a way better company today than it was 1599 01:17:58,200 --> 01:18:00,240 at its peak. Micro strategies price is way 1600 01:18:00,240 --> 01:18:01,880 down, but it's a way better company today. 1601 01:18:02,080 --> 01:18:03,560 And so that's the way I'd look at Bitcoin as well. 1602 01:18:04,280 --> 01:18:06,000 Yeah. And and I agree with that. 1603 01:18:06,000 --> 01:18:09,160 And I think it was, it was, it was a it was a humbling year and 1604 01:18:09,320 --> 01:18:14,640 you buried the lead there, which is the aspect of expectations 1605 01:18:15,240 --> 01:18:20,480 and expectations in Bitcoin. Bitcoin has a way of taking your 1606 01:18:20,480 --> 01:18:24,080 expectations and literally grinding it into atoms. 1607 01:18:24,200 --> 01:18:26,880 Humbling you? Yeah, absolutely. 1608 01:18:26,880 --> 01:18:30,280 And I think a lot of people heading into the year, because 1609 01:18:30,280 --> 01:18:35,040 Trump was elected, had very high expectations of what Bitcoin 1610 01:18:35,040 --> 01:18:39,400 would do and then also previous cycle performances as well. 1611 01:18:39,600 --> 01:18:42,720 And then if you take that combination together, right, 1612 01:18:43,680 --> 01:18:46,160 you, you end up where, where we are today, right? 1613 01:18:46,160 --> 01:18:49,480 You end up with interviews like with Danny and Sailor. 1614 01:18:50,360 --> 01:18:53,280 And, but I think it was healthy. I think this is good for the 1615 01:18:53,280 --> 01:18:58,720 community because once Bitcoin truly bounces back, all these 1616 01:18:58,720 --> 01:19:01,440 treasury companies are going to bounce back or not all of them, 1617 01:19:01,440 --> 01:19:06,040 but most, a lot of them are going to bounce back 2 * 3 times 1618 01:19:06,040 --> 01:19:08,680 as hard. And I think that this cycle. 1619 01:19:08,680 --> 01:19:10,320 And I want to get your thoughts on this, Mark. 1620 01:19:10,920 --> 01:19:14,800 I think that last cycle, Michael Saylor and the country of El 1621 01:19:14,800 --> 01:19:18,280 Salvador paid their dues. So for the first time, a nation 1622 01:19:18,280 --> 01:19:21,200 state bought bitcoins somewhat at the top. 1623 01:19:21,920 --> 01:19:24,960 It went down. Michael Saylor, a big, you know, 1624 01:19:24,960 --> 01:19:28,040 publicly traded company bought Bitcoin, went down. 1625 01:19:28,240 --> 01:19:32,080 Both wrecked. You know, they survived the 2222 1626 01:19:32,080 --> 01:19:34,440 bear market, and then they got rewarded. 1627 01:19:34,440 --> 01:19:37,760 This is a story that all of us Bitcoiners go through. 1628 01:19:37,880 --> 01:19:39,760 We call it paying the price of tuition. 1629 01:19:40,360 --> 01:19:45,560 I think this cycle is where Wall Street is paying their price of 1630 01:19:45,560 --> 01:19:47,920 tuition. I think once we get over the 1631 01:19:47,920 --> 01:19:52,040 hump and Bitcoin starts to pick up again, I think it's just a 1632 01:19:52,040 --> 01:19:56,960 matter of time before the mag 7, you know, start to say, hey, 1633 01:19:56,960 --> 01:20:00,240 listen, this could be detrimental to our to our 1634 01:20:00,240 --> 01:20:02,680 shareholders if, if we don't have Bitcoin. 1635 01:20:03,000 --> 01:20:07,240 Yeah, I would agree with that. I think to your point, the the 1636 01:20:07,240 --> 01:20:10,800 cycles are brutal and I I started buying Bitcoin in 2015. 1637 01:20:10,800 --> 01:20:11,840 So I've been through a few of them. 1638 01:20:14,400 --> 01:20:18,720 It gets a little easier, but it's not easy where I've made 1639 01:20:18,720 --> 01:20:23,040 the mistakes paying my dues. When I look back to the 2018 1640 01:20:23,040 --> 01:20:26,000 bear marker, 2022 was I never sold. 1641 01:20:26,520 --> 01:20:29,480 I never sold the bottom. I never sold it all, but I 1642 01:20:29,480 --> 01:20:33,840 didn't buy with conviction in the dips because even me, I'm 1643 01:20:33,840 --> 01:20:36,720 like, Oh my God, I remember in 2018, right, a Bitcoin dropped 1644 01:20:36,720 --> 01:20:39,880 from 20,000 down to whatever was like $3000 and it's like, Oh my 1645 01:20:39,880 --> 01:20:41,320 God, is it ever going to come back? 1646 01:20:41,320 --> 01:20:43,800 I had all this money and now it's this much. 1647 01:20:43,800 --> 01:20:44,840 What did I do? Right? 1648 01:20:46,280 --> 01:20:49,320 I'm not going to sell it. But like, I don't know, I kind 1649 01:20:49,320 --> 01:20:50,480 of have enough. I don't need if I need to buy 1650 01:20:50,480 --> 01:20:53,200 anymore, right? And and and each cycle and now 1651 01:20:53,200 --> 01:20:55,800 it's only down 30%, but the sentiment is so low. 1652 01:20:55,800 --> 01:20:57,560 It's like, man, I don't know if it's going to come back and may 1653 01:20:57,560 --> 01:21:01,160 keep dropping. So it's like the same thing, but 1654 01:21:01,160 --> 01:21:02,400 I would I would agree with you, right? 1655 01:21:02,400 --> 01:21:04,600 Like I said that the network has never been stronger. 1656 01:21:04,600 --> 01:21:06,080 The hash power is continuing going up. 1657 01:21:06,080 --> 01:21:07,360 The institutional adoption is stronger. 1658 01:21:07,360 --> 01:21:10,000 The institutional rotation has been stronger. 1659 01:21:10,200 --> 01:21:11,680 I think gold took some of the shine. 1660 01:21:11,960 --> 01:21:17,280 I think that the Bitcoin four year cycle became like a self 1661 01:21:17,280 --> 01:21:20,560 fulfilling prophecy. So many people expected it when 1662 01:21:20,560 --> 01:21:23,000 the price dropped a little bit. And you know, it's a confluence 1663 01:21:23,000 --> 01:21:24,960 of factors. Trump tweeted on October 10th 1664 01:21:24,960 --> 01:21:28,160 that that he was going to put 100% tariffs on China that 1665 01:21:28,160 --> 01:21:30,600 caused the market to stumble. Then you had a cascading 1666 01:21:30,600 --> 01:21:33,560 effective of of leverage get wiped out across the crypto 1667 01:21:33,560 --> 01:21:36,240 exchanges. You also had JP Morgan start the 1668 01:21:36,240 --> 01:21:39,920 attack on micro strategy all on the same time frame. 1669 01:21:40,480 --> 01:21:43,560 And then you had the four year cycle people going, oh, this is 1670 01:21:43,560 --> 01:21:45,800 it, this is it, this is it. We should sell right now. 1671 01:21:45,960 --> 01:21:47,560 And I think it became a self fulfilling prophecy. 1672 01:21:48,120 --> 01:21:51,040 But shoot, if all we have is a 30% drawdown, that's not so bad. 1673 01:21:51,040 --> 01:21:53,920 If you look from the bear market, 2022, as you said, this 1674 01:21:53,920 --> 01:21:57,360 is the third drawdown of 30% we've had and it held and it 1675 01:21:57,400 --> 01:22:00,040 held. So, you know, I think next year 1676 01:22:01,160 --> 01:22:04,280 shows that that four year cycle is over. 2026 kind of shows that 1677 01:22:05,120 --> 01:22:07,600 and yeah, yeah, all these people have vindicated the treasury 1678 01:22:07,600 --> 01:22:09,680 companies will be the one that will come out on their side of 1679 01:22:09,720 --> 01:22:10,840 having paid their dues. I. 1680 01:22:11,480 --> 01:22:16,840 Have 100% agree now, Mark, you made this amazing presentation 1681 01:22:16,840 --> 01:22:19,680 Bitcoin Mina, last time you came on the show, you were talking 1682 01:22:19,680 --> 01:22:24,560 about it, but you were basically laying out, you know, the 1683 01:22:25,320 --> 01:22:28,880 future, you know, decade or two and Bitcoin and what the 1684 01:22:28,880 --> 01:22:31,120 potential is. And the reason I want to bring 1685 01:22:31,120 --> 01:22:36,120 that up is I think this cycle because Bitcoin didn't perform 1686 01:22:36,480 --> 01:22:39,960 to the expectation that people performed it to again, keyword 1687 01:22:40,000 --> 01:22:45,040 expectation. I think perhaps people still 1688 01:22:45,040 --> 01:22:49,120 believe that, you know, listen, they missed the boat. 1689 01:22:49,640 --> 01:22:52,800 There's no opportunity here. The diminishing returns are are 1690 01:22:52,800 --> 01:22:56,560 just too big, you know, So they start to gamble a little bit, 1691 01:22:56,560 --> 01:23:00,280 they start to buy whatever mean coin is the current thing. 1692 01:23:00,280 --> 01:23:02,360 They get absolutely wrecked. NYC coin or whatever. 1693 01:23:02,840 --> 01:23:05,520 Yeah, they, they, they, they buy the, the latest and greatest 1694 01:23:05,520 --> 01:23:07,920 whatever mean coin, right? The, the, the, the, you know, 1695 01:23:07,920 --> 01:23:09,920 'cause they feel like they, they, they missed the boat, like 1696 01:23:09,920 --> 01:23:13,360 it Bitcoins not going to give them the financial freedom that 1697 01:23:13,360 --> 01:23:16,640 they have hoped for. I think they're wrong. 1698 01:23:16,760 --> 01:23:21,040 I think the only difference is the time scales have changed, 1699 01:23:21,440 --> 01:23:23,520 but I think the opportunity is still there. 1700 01:23:23,680 --> 01:23:26,560 This is a subject that you've talked about at length. 1701 01:23:26,880 --> 01:23:29,320 Could you break it down? Could you give the people a 1702 01:23:29,320 --> 01:23:33,600 little bit of hope so? First of all, I think, I think 1703 01:23:33,600 --> 01:23:39,520 just that overall sentiment is very strange of I am too late, I 1704 01:23:39,520 --> 01:23:41,760 missed the boat. I, I, I don't understand how 1705 01:23:41,760 --> 01:23:44,920 people come with that mindset. And the reason why is back to 1706 01:23:44,920 --> 01:23:47,400 the financial system. The entire financial system is 1707 01:23:47,400 --> 01:23:50,040 about discounted future cash flows. 1708 01:23:50,240 --> 01:23:53,080 You're buying stocks on APE ratio. 1709 01:23:53,080 --> 01:23:57,400 I'm buying the MAG 7 at a 30 to 50 times PE ratio, meaning I'm 1710 01:23:57,600 --> 01:23:59,320 paying a price today. It's going to take 30 to 50 1711 01:23:59,320 --> 01:24:01,320 years for them to make enough cash flow to be worth that. 1712 01:24:01,800 --> 01:24:05,240 So I'm buying Tesla, Apple, Google, whatever because I think 1713 01:24:05,240 --> 01:24:07,400 it's going to be worth more in the future. 1714 01:24:08,120 --> 01:24:10,200 Nobody goes. Oh, well, Google used to be 1715 01:24:10,200 --> 01:24:14,000 cheaper, so it's too late. Like, dude, you buy Google, she 1716 01:24:14,000 --> 01:24:14,960 has to be worth more in the future. 1717 01:24:14,960 --> 01:24:17,080 I buy gold because it has to be worth more in the future. 1718 01:24:17,160 --> 01:24:20,560 So like, I look at all financial assets as how much it will be 1719 01:24:20,680 --> 01:24:23,240 trying to guess, trying to speculate, trying to put some 1720 01:24:23,240 --> 01:24:25,120 model into what I think it'll be worth in the future. 1721 01:24:25,480 --> 01:24:28,440 If Apple, Tesla, Google makes this cash flow, it will be worth 1722 01:24:28,440 --> 01:24:30,400 this in the future. But when they come to Bitcoin, 1723 01:24:30,400 --> 01:24:35,640 they go, oh, but in the past, like, no, I don't understand why 1724 01:24:35,640 --> 01:24:36,560 they would bring that number one. 1725 01:24:36,560 --> 01:24:38,800 OK, So what we want to do is think about where does Bitcoin 1726 01:24:38,800 --> 01:24:40,600 go in the future? So we need to come up with some 1727 01:24:40,600 --> 01:24:43,760 sort of valuation models of where we think it can be now to 1728 01:24:44,000 --> 01:24:45,960 the presentation. I gave a Bitcoin mean and I sort 1729 01:24:45,960 --> 01:24:48,880 of gave where I think it'll be 203020402050. 1730 01:24:49,400 --> 01:24:54,760 And the way that I did it was using economic models, but also 1731 01:24:54,760 --> 01:24:56,320 I use like a venture capital lens. 1732 01:24:56,640 --> 01:24:59,480 So the way a venture capitalist thinks, I have a shout out to my 1733 01:24:59,480 --> 01:25:02,240 Bitcoin partners, a Bitcoin opportunity fund James lavish 1734 01:25:02,240 --> 01:25:05,400 layer of the par David Foley and we deploy venture capital into 1735 01:25:05,400 --> 01:25:07,360 the into the Bitcoin space and help Bitcoin companies grow. 1736 01:25:07,680 --> 01:25:10,400 And the way we do it is we go, OK, this company's starting up, 1737 01:25:10,400 --> 01:25:13,080 but this is the market they're going into. 1738 01:25:13,280 --> 01:25:15,400 These are the markets that it's disrupting. 1739 01:25:15,960 --> 01:25:18,160 How much do we think it can get from those markets? 1740 01:25:18,160 --> 01:25:21,320 So for example, if we were investing into Uber in the early 1741 01:25:21,320 --> 01:25:24,880 days, do you want to invest in this app where you can get a 1742 01:25:24,880 --> 01:25:27,640 ride? You mean like a taxi? 1743 01:25:27,840 --> 01:25:29,800 Well, it's sort of like a taxi, but you can get like a black 1744 01:25:29,800 --> 01:25:31,760 car, but it's easy because your credit card is in there. 1745 01:25:31,760 --> 01:25:33,360 It's like, but can't we do that now? 1746 01:25:33,360 --> 01:25:35,560 Well, it's different. And how much is worth 100 1747 01:25:35,560 --> 01:25:37,160 million, a 100 million? What are you talking about? 1748 01:25:37,160 --> 01:25:39,720 Well, the taxi is this big, the limos is this big, the van. 1749 01:25:39,720 --> 01:25:42,280 So if I get 5% of that, right, so then I come up with some sort 1750 01:25:42,280 --> 01:25:44,680 of future valuation. So with Bitcoin, we could do the 1751 01:25:44,680 --> 01:25:46,560 same thing. What are the markets Bitcoin is 1752 01:25:46,560 --> 01:25:48,880 disrupting? How big are those markets and 1753 01:25:48,880 --> 01:25:51,680 what percentage of those markets do we think we can capture? 1754 01:25:52,080 --> 01:25:54,760 So there's two things that I used for this. 1755 01:25:54,880 --> 01:25:59,120 Number one, how big will the overall market or the pie get? 1756 01:25:59,920 --> 01:26:03,080 And then two, we speculate as to what percentage we think Bitcoin 1757 01:26:03,080 --> 01:26:04,480 can acquire. So that's how we do it from a 1758 01:26:04,480 --> 01:26:06,720 venture capital lens. So what do we do is we 1759 01:26:06,720 --> 01:26:10,720 understand that when we look at assets, there's different types 1760 01:26:10,720 --> 01:26:12,040 of assets. I mentioned that earlier, I like 1761 01:26:12,040 --> 01:26:13,920 to break assets into four different categories. 1762 01:26:14,160 --> 01:26:16,600 But these assets are what we call store value assets. 1763 01:26:16,800 --> 01:26:20,480 So unlike a car, RVA, boat, that's an asset on your balance 1764 01:26:20,480 --> 01:26:22,400 sheet, but it's not a store of value asset. 1765 01:26:22,400 --> 01:26:24,400 A store value asset is where money goes and sits. 1766 01:26:24,600 --> 01:26:27,160 So that's typically real estate is the biggest, but it's 1767 01:26:27,160 --> 01:26:31,000 equities, it's stocks, it's bonds, it's gold, it's 1768 01:26:31,000 --> 01:26:33,560 collectibles, it's fine art. Those are things people put 1769 01:26:33,560 --> 01:26:35,080 their money into. And then Bitcoin fits into that. 1770 01:26:35,480 --> 01:26:40,400 And so that bucket, that pie is growing at the rate of monetary 1771 01:26:40,400 --> 01:26:41,840 debasement or liquidity increase. 1772 01:26:42,960 --> 01:26:45,560 So as more dollar units are created, they buy less and then 1773 01:26:45,560 --> 01:26:47,800 the valuation of that store value bucket goes up. 1774 01:26:48,120 --> 01:26:51,040 So number one, we realize that that's not a static pie. 1775 01:26:51,200 --> 01:26:54,480 That pie is getting bigger or more valuable or, or in nominal 1776 01:26:54,480 --> 01:26:57,840 terms anyway. So if I remember correctly, in 1777 01:26:57,840 --> 01:27:02,160 2010, that store value bucket was like about 300 trillion. 1778 01:27:02,360 --> 01:27:07,000 Today it's about a quadrillion and at the rate of monetary 1779 01:27:07,000 --> 01:27:09,040 increase. So the the CBO, Congressional 1780 01:27:09,040 --> 01:27:12,200 Budget Office of the United States, they project out the 1781 01:27:12,880 --> 01:27:16,360 spending, the deficit, the budget, the debt through 2054 1782 01:27:16,360 --> 01:27:20,040 for 30 years. So they tell us how much money 1783 01:27:20,040 --> 01:27:21,960 will be printed in the next 30 years. 1784 01:27:22,480 --> 01:27:24,800 And they're going to undershoot. That is going to be way more 1785 01:27:24,800 --> 01:27:27,080 than they're saying. But let's just if, if we just 1786 01:27:27,080 --> 01:27:30,520 use the numbers they give us and we're not going to talk about 1787 01:27:30,520 --> 01:27:33,160 what AI could do to that and all that, but just using the numbers 1788 01:27:33,160 --> 01:27:36,160 that they give us. So we apply that the rate of 1789 01:27:36,160 --> 01:27:39,440 monetary and debt increase to that store value buckets. 1790 01:27:39,440 --> 01:27:41,880 And so we're 300 trillion, we're at a quadrillion today. 1791 01:27:41,880 --> 01:27:45,400 That's about it should be about 1.6 quadrillion by 20-30. 1792 01:27:45,880 --> 01:27:49,680 I believe it's like 3 1/2 quadrillion by 2040 and it was 1793 01:27:49,680 --> 01:27:52,040 like 88. It's been a while since I looked 1794 01:27:52,040 --> 01:27:54,360 at numbers. It was like 88 quadrillion by 1795 01:27:54,360 --> 01:27:55,560 2050. OK. 1796 01:27:55,880 --> 01:27:59,120 So then now that we know that how big that pie is getting, 1797 01:27:59,320 --> 01:28:03,280 what percentage of that pie do we think Bitcoin can acquire? 1798 01:28:03,680 --> 01:28:08,160 Now from a venture capital lens they potential, you know 1799 01:28:09,000 --> 01:28:13,920 investment says we think we can get 5% of the market in five 1800 01:28:13,920 --> 01:28:15,600 years. OK, sounds reasonable. 1801 01:28:16,040 --> 01:28:18,640 Someone else says I think I can get 80% of the market in one 1802 01:28:18,640 --> 01:28:19,680 year. OK, that's probably not 1803 01:28:19,680 --> 01:28:21,080 reasonable. So we try to come up with what 1804 01:28:21,080 --> 01:28:24,440 we think is reasonable to make this a little bit easier to 1805 01:28:24,440 --> 01:28:28,840 understand. Uber and Airbnb were both able 1806 01:28:28,840 --> 01:28:32,520 to acquire 10% of their markets in less than 10 years. 1807 01:28:33,360 --> 01:28:37,000 OK, so how much of that pie do we think Bitcoin can get now? 1808 01:28:37,000 --> 01:28:39,440 It's certainly better, right? It's, it's more portable than 1809 01:28:39,440 --> 01:28:41,440 gold, right? It's more secure, it's more 1810 01:28:41,440 --> 01:28:43,760 stable. We, we, we compared it to real 1811 01:28:43,760 --> 01:28:44,880 estate, which is the biggest bucket. 1812 01:28:44,880 --> 01:28:46,040 There's no maintenance, no tenants. 1813 01:28:46,040 --> 01:28:49,040 So, so it's, it's like a, there's, there's 30 to 40 1814 01:28:49,040 --> 01:28:50,160 trillion in offshore bank accounts. 1815 01:28:50,160 --> 01:28:51,720 It's certainly better than offshore bank accounts, right? 1816 01:28:51,720 --> 01:28:53,440 So how much can we get from offshore bank accounts, for 1817 01:28:53,440 --> 01:28:57,120 example? So if Bitcoin can get to just 1818 01:28:59,160 --> 01:29:09,680 1.25% by 2030, 1.25% and that would be what would that be? 1819 01:29:09,920 --> 01:29:14,320 20 years of Bitcoin? 22 years of Bitcoin, not 1022 1820 01:29:14,320 --> 01:29:16,240 years. It gets to 1 and a 1 1/4%. 1821 01:29:16,320 --> 01:29:18,440 Now Airbnb and Uber got 10% in 10 years. 1822 01:29:18,440 --> 01:29:23,400 I'm talking 1 1/4%. That would be $21 trillion or $1 1823 01:29:23,400 --> 01:29:27,000 million per Bitcoin by 20-30. Base case. 1824 01:29:27,640 --> 01:29:30,720 I mean, yeah, obviously we have no crystal ball, but I'm using 1825 01:29:30,720 --> 01:29:32,960 the venture capital lens and I think that's more than 1826 01:29:32,960 --> 01:29:35,040 realistic. I absolutely agree with you. 1827 01:29:35,120 --> 01:29:36,920 Yeah. Then we project that out. 1828 01:29:36,920 --> 01:29:43,360 So by 2040, so now we're at over 30 years, if it can get to 8% of 1829 01:29:43,360 --> 01:29:47,480 the bucket, that would bring it to $14 million per Bitcoin. 1830 01:29:48,640 --> 01:29:53,360 And I believe by 2050 I had to get into like 15 or 20% of the 1831 01:29:53,360 --> 01:29:56,760 bucket, and that puts it at like $40 million per Bitcoin. 1832 01:29:58,680 --> 01:30:01,800 Holy cow. Yeah, but again, it's not the 1833 01:30:02,440 --> 01:30:05,560 the reason it doesn't sound unreasonable, Mark, is your 1834 01:30:05,560 --> 01:30:09,880 logic behind it, right? The logic behind it, if you 1835 01:30:09,880 --> 01:30:12,640 break it down like that, because I see a lot of people do this, 1836 01:30:12,640 --> 01:30:15,320 it's like, oh, these, this price prediction, the this and this 1837 01:30:15,320 --> 01:30:19,000 and that. But it's, if you apply that VC 1838 01:30:19,000 --> 01:30:23,360 logic towards this type of thinking and it's like, what 1839 01:30:23,360 --> 01:30:25,800 percentage of, you know, I, I love the way that you broke it 1840 01:30:25,800 --> 01:30:26,760 down. It's like, what percentage of 1841 01:30:26,760 --> 01:30:31,520 the market could you get right? Like 1% is not, it's not crazy, 1842 01:30:31,520 --> 01:30:36,200 it's not unreasonable, but look at where the price would be if 1843 01:30:36,200 --> 01:30:40,080 it gets to 1%. And then you compare Bitcoin 1844 01:30:40,280 --> 01:30:43,320 with all these other assets. Like the question is, is Bitcoin 1845 01:30:43,320 --> 01:30:45,760 better than gold? Absolutely, 100%. 1846 01:30:45,760 --> 01:30:47,720 I can break it down. It's like, look, the physical 1847 01:30:47,720 --> 01:30:50,560 characteristics you can, you can transport anywhere around the 1848 01:30:50,560 --> 01:30:52,360 world. It's censorship resistant. 1849 01:30:52,400 --> 01:30:55,160 There's absolute scarcity. Gold doesn't have any of those 1850 01:30:55,160 --> 01:30:57,120 things. Just for Bitcoin to reach the 1851 01:30:57,120 --> 01:30:59,800 market cap, just for Bitcoin to reach the market cap of gold 1852 01:30:59,800 --> 01:31:03,640 would put Bitcoin at $1.5 million per coin, right? 1853 01:31:04,560 --> 01:31:07,240 That base case is not unreasonable. 1854 01:31:07,440 --> 01:31:11,040 But I think because we got so chewed up because of the 1855 01:31:11,040 --> 01:31:15,840 expectations that we had heading into 2025, I think that it it's 1856 01:31:15,840 --> 01:31:19,240 it, it seems like an impossible mountain to climb, I would say. 1857 01:31:19,880 --> 01:31:22,280 There's a, there's a few other metrics that I would have put 1858 01:31:22,280 --> 01:31:24,880 over the top of it to really try to drive this home. 1859 01:31:25,360 --> 01:31:28,120 So when you look at technology, I've started, I started two tech 1860 01:31:28,120 --> 01:31:30,240 companies that had big exits. I've been investing in tech for 1861 01:31:30,240 --> 01:31:31,800 a long time. And so some other models we 1862 01:31:31,800 --> 01:31:34,720 would look at is you would use something called the diffusion 1863 01:31:34,720 --> 01:31:36,240 of innovation, which is like a bell curve. 1864 01:31:37,200 --> 01:31:38,600 And then we'd use like an S curve. 1865 01:31:38,880 --> 01:31:42,440 And an S curve helps us understand how much market 1866 01:31:42,440 --> 01:31:44,120 penetration we can get over a period of time. 1867 01:31:44,600 --> 01:31:48,120 And so the way an S curve works is it it's like a sideways S, 1868 01:31:49,160 --> 01:31:51,760 the time it takes to go from zero to 10% is the same time it 1869 01:31:51,760 --> 01:31:55,640 takes to go from 10 to 90%. Typically about 80% penetration 1870 01:31:55,640 --> 01:31:57,600 is considered full market penetration. 1871 01:31:57,880 --> 01:32:00,880 There's still people today who don't have like Internet and and 1872 01:32:01,040 --> 01:32:03,320 you know, cable TV. Did you want to say that? 1873 01:32:03,960 --> 01:32:05,200 Where do you think we are in the S? 1874 01:32:05,200 --> 01:32:06,400 Group Yeah. So there was a there was an 1875 01:32:06,400 --> 01:32:07,880 article that just came out about a week ago. 1876 01:32:07,880 --> 01:32:09,640 I was going to make a video on it, but I haven't got a chance 1877 01:32:09,640 --> 01:32:12,280 to write it out yet. But it showed a whole bunch of 1878 01:32:12,280 --> 01:32:15,560 data and they believe we've now just hit 10%. 1879 01:32:17,200 --> 01:32:20,800 Of Bitcoin adoption. Of it was crypto adoption, so I 1880 01:32:20,800 --> 01:32:22,880 haven't really got through the weeds to understand the exact 1881 01:32:22,880 --> 01:32:25,400 details, but about 10% of Bitcoin adoption, yes. 1882 01:32:25,960 --> 01:32:29,840 And so we've just hit that now in the USI think we've gone past 1883 01:32:29,840 --> 01:32:32,080 that quite a while ago, but this is like globally. 1884 01:32:32,400 --> 01:32:36,080 And So what that means is that now we are I guess what, 17 1885 01:32:36,080 --> 01:32:39,680 years into it. So now it could take another, I 1886 01:32:39,680 --> 01:32:41,560 don't know, 15 years to get to 90%. 1887 01:32:41,560 --> 01:32:45,760 But what that really means is the S curve, it turns parabolic 1888 01:32:46,040 --> 01:32:49,400 and then it so it's, it goes up slow, it turns parabolic and 1889 01:32:49,400 --> 01:32:52,840 then it evens out again. So we're entering the parabolic 1890 01:32:52,840 --> 01:32:55,360 phase. And so, and the reason why is in 1891 01:32:55,360 --> 01:32:58,880 the beginning you had, you had small retail money people 1892 01:32:58,880 --> 01:33:01,040 bringing 10s of dollars or hundreds of dollars and then 1893 01:33:01,040 --> 01:33:02,720 thousands of dollars and then 10s of thousands. 1894 01:33:03,000 --> 01:33:05,680 But today you have hundreds of billions coming in. 1895 01:33:06,080 --> 01:33:07,720 So we enter this parabolic phase. 1896 01:33:07,720 --> 01:33:10,840 And so while most people Sailor talks about the law of law of 1897 01:33:10,840 --> 01:33:14,320 large numbers, the larger the asset gets, the lower the 1898 01:33:14,320 --> 01:33:16,600 volatility drops because it's harder to move the basket. 1899 01:33:17,320 --> 01:33:19,440 While that sure is the law of large numbers. 1900 01:33:19,440 --> 01:33:22,240 And of course that is the law. It's the bigger it gets, the 1901 01:33:22,240 --> 01:33:27,240 harder to move, of course. But when you think about when 1902 01:33:27,240 --> 01:33:31,320 you have a technological revolution cycle and you overlay 1903 01:33:31,320 --> 01:33:34,360 financial capital onto that and you look at the way investors 1904 01:33:34,360 --> 01:33:37,840 come into these cycles, phase two, which we're going into the 1905 01:33:37,840 --> 01:33:40,120 parabolic phase is what's known as the frenzy phase. 1906 01:33:40,120 --> 01:33:41,480 That's where the institutions come in. 1907 01:33:41,480 --> 01:33:42,840 That's where the sovereigns come in. 1908 01:33:43,280 --> 01:33:46,040 So we, we went from retail bringing small checks to 1909 01:33:46,040 --> 01:33:50,320 sovereigns bringing in massive checks in the S curve, parabolic 1910 01:33:50,320 --> 01:33:53,600 part of the adoption cycle of the technology. 1911 01:33:54,880 --> 01:33:58,120 We, while I do believe obviously it's the law of large numbers, 1912 01:33:58,120 --> 01:34:01,360 of course that makes sense, but we could potentially see Kagar 1913 01:34:01,360 --> 01:34:04,920 turn back up for a while. I would agree with that. 1914 01:34:04,920 --> 01:34:09,680 And I was actually talking to someone who worked in like the 1915 01:34:09,680 --> 01:34:11,880 corporate world. And the way that he, he told me 1916 01:34:11,880 --> 01:34:14,080 and the way that he described it to me is like, look, Nico, 1917 01:34:14,480 --> 01:34:18,720 there's one catalyst that if this catalyst happens, like 1918 01:34:18,720 --> 01:34:20,680 we're going to $1,000,000 tomorrow. 1919 01:34:20,680 --> 01:34:23,480 And I said, what is that? He's like, look, the moment the 1920 01:34:23,480 --> 01:34:27,080 United States government announces that they are actively 1921 01:34:27,080 --> 01:34:30,520 buying Bitcoin, you're going to see a frenzy the likes of which 1922 01:34:30,520 --> 01:34:34,680 you've never seen before. And again, that would be the 1923 01:34:34,680 --> 01:34:37,600 ultimate because right now it's like, look, they've established 1924 01:34:37,600 --> 01:34:41,840 the, they've established the, you know, the, the, the Bitcoin 1925 01:34:41,840 --> 01:34:44,960 strategic reserve, but it's via executive order. 1926 01:34:45,040 --> 01:34:48,280 It's not via, you know, it's, it's so it's, it's, it's 1927 01:34:48,280 --> 01:34:52,480 fragile, so to speak. But the moment the United States 1928 01:34:52,480 --> 01:34:56,840 government announces, hey, we're actually accumulating Bitcoin, 1929 01:34:57,160 --> 01:34:58,560 it's going to start a frenzy worldwide. 1930 01:34:58,560 --> 01:35:01,120 I think Max Kaiser calls it the global hash war or something 1931 01:35:01,120 --> 01:35:03,720 like that. So I want to get your take on 1932 01:35:03,720 --> 01:35:06,640 that because I, I do agree with your theory. 1933 01:35:06,640 --> 01:35:09,720 And, and, and, and, and, and it is ultimately a technology. 1934 01:35:09,880 --> 01:35:13,880 So the S curve adoption applies, but you need that catalyst, I 1935 01:35:13,880 --> 01:35:15,760 would say. And I think that Catalyst would 1936 01:35:15,760 --> 01:35:19,160 be, you know, the most powerful country on the on the face of 1937 01:35:19,160 --> 01:35:22,720 the planet with the most powerful money printer basically 1938 01:35:22,720 --> 01:35:25,280 saying, OK, we're going to use the money printer to buy 1939 01:35:25,280 --> 01:35:26,800 something that has absolute scarcity. 1940 01:35:28,320 --> 01:35:31,520 Yeah, I think, I think there's other catalysts as well, but 1941 01:35:31,520 --> 01:35:33,240 we'll talk about that for a second, I think. 1942 01:35:33,280 --> 01:35:36,520 Yes, obviously, right. So when you have a country like 1943 01:35:36,520 --> 01:35:38,320 El Salvador start buying Bitcoin, they're not really an 1944 01:35:38,320 --> 01:35:40,240 influential nation. They're like one of the poorest 1945 01:35:40,240 --> 01:35:42,800 countries in the world. And so because they bought it 1946 01:35:42,800 --> 01:35:44,360 doesn't make other countries want to go buy it. 1947 01:35:44,360 --> 01:35:47,640 Although he did start meeting with other heads of smaller 1948 01:35:47,640 --> 01:35:49,800 countries, right? I think he met with 40 other 1949 01:35:49,800 --> 01:35:51,560 country leaders, like shortly after them. 1950 01:35:52,200 --> 01:35:55,440 But the United States, which is kind of funny because in my 1951 01:35:55,440 --> 01:35:57,280 opinion, it would always be the last move because it's got the 1952 01:35:57,280 --> 01:35:59,120 most to lose, right? It's got the reserve currency of 1953 01:35:59,120 --> 01:36:00,920 the world. So you'd think everybody would 1954 01:36:00,920 --> 01:36:03,680 move before the US. But if the US moves, which is 1955 01:36:03,680 --> 01:36:05,360 the top of the heap with the reserve currency, then of 1956 01:36:05,360 --> 01:36:06,920 course, yes, it's the most fun to a nation. 1957 01:36:06,920 --> 01:36:08,120 Everybody would be forced to buy. 1958 01:36:08,440 --> 01:36:11,920 So that would certainly be a catalyst to your point, right? 1959 01:36:11,920 --> 01:36:14,720 We got an executive order. I mean, what we just found out 1960 01:36:14,720 --> 01:36:17,520 they're selling going on by I mean, so like who knows where 1961 01:36:17,520 --> 01:36:19,200 that's at. We probably are quite a way from 1962 01:36:19,200 --> 01:36:21,560 from buying happening. But I think the, the, the other 1963 01:36:21,560 --> 01:36:24,360 catalyst that's there is you mentioned gold. 1964 01:36:25,080 --> 01:36:28,520 I mean, holy crap, 4600 bucks an ounce silver hit $99.00. 1965 01:36:28,520 --> 01:36:30,160 I mean, that is absolutely insane. 1966 01:36:30,160 --> 01:36:32,640 And it's been smashing Bitcoin in the last year. 1967 01:36:33,320 --> 01:36:39,080 But what's happening on the gold front is what's going on in 1968 01:36:39,080 --> 01:36:44,640 China, in Hong Kong. And yesterday Trump announced 1969 01:36:44,640 --> 01:36:49,240 25% tariffs against Iran. All of that is the story. 1970 01:36:49,240 --> 01:36:52,960 So what what's happening is the US dollar is the reserve 1971 01:36:52,960 --> 01:36:56,080 currency of the world. It's the reserve asset of the 1972 01:36:56,080 --> 01:36:57,120 world. So what does that mean? 1973 01:36:57,280 --> 01:37:00,360 That means that that's what central banks hold, an FX 1974 01:37:01,000 --> 01:37:03,080 currency holds. They hold in their reserves. 1975 01:37:03,080 --> 01:37:04,800 That's what they hold in their, in their bank grant. 1976 01:37:06,720 --> 01:37:09,560 But what we've seen is that's dropped from about 60% down to 1977 01:37:09,560 --> 01:37:12,360 about 40% in the last 10 years. But that's what they hold in 1978 01:37:12,360 --> 01:37:14,200 reserves. But it, but the dollar isn't 1979 01:37:14,200 --> 01:37:17,640 just the reserve currency. The dollar is also the payment 1980 01:37:17,640 --> 01:37:20,720 network of the world. So it's the Visa like you can go 1981 01:37:20,720 --> 01:37:22,480 anywhere and use Visa. That's what they, they have the 1982 01:37:22,480 --> 01:37:23,960 benefit of that. So you have the dollar payment 1983 01:37:23,960 --> 01:37:25,680 network. And so the US is able to slap 1984 01:37:25,680 --> 01:37:28,400 sanctions on people like, hey, no, no network for you. 1985 01:37:29,160 --> 01:37:31,720 Well, what China's been doing is they've been actively working on 1986 01:37:31,720 --> 01:37:34,760 setting up a parallel financial system, a whole new set of rails 1987 01:37:34,760 --> 01:37:36,920 that are on gold. And they've been doing it 1988 01:37:36,920 --> 01:37:39,440 through Hong Kong with the Shanghai Gold Exchange. 1989 01:37:39,800 --> 01:37:42,640 And what they're using is their own currency, the RMB, which 1990 01:37:42,640 --> 01:37:44,680 nobody would ever use or trust that money. 1991 01:37:44,680 --> 01:37:46,960 No one would ever reserve that money, But they're not relying 1992 01:37:46,960 --> 01:37:49,040 on that. They're using the RMB for the 1993 01:37:49,040 --> 01:37:51,760 liquidity piece, but they're settling in gold. 1994 01:37:51,920 --> 01:37:55,160 People trust gold. And not only have they done 1995 01:37:55,160 --> 01:37:57,880 that, it's pretty much up and operational in Hong out of Hong 1996 01:37:57,880 --> 01:38:00,280 Kong. They've already opened up swap 1997 01:38:00,280 --> 01:38:03,280 lines with I think 32 countries, pretty much every country but 1998 01:38:03,280 --> 01:38:07,680 the US and So what that means is that now all these countries can 1999 01:38:07,680 --> 01:38:11,160 do business with each other, settle in gold and completely 2000 01:38:11,160 --> 01:38:14,240 bypass It's like instead of using the the Fiat rails like 2001 01:38:14,240 --> 01:38:15,640 swift, I'm going to send you Bitcoin. 2002 01:38:15,720 --> 01:38:17,520 That's basically what we're talking about here, right? 2003 01:38:17,960 --> 01:38:21,440 So when the US continues to sanction, sanction, sanction now 2004 01:38:21,440 --> 01:38:24,440 another 25% sanctions on Iran is state, which by the way, what's 2005 01:38:24,440 --> 01:38:28,360 happening in Iran is terrible. And I'm, I wish we could do 2006 01:38:28,360 --> 01:38:30,320 something. I'm just not sure the tariffs 2007 01:38:30,320 --> 01:38:32,560 are, are the sanctions are a way to do that. 2008 01:38:32,560 --> 01:38:35,520 Because what happens is every time we kick more people out of 2009 01:38:35,520 --> 01:38:38,480 the party, they just go have a party somewhere else. 2010 01:38:38,480 --> 01:38:41,960 And they're not coming back. You saw this with with Russia, 2011 01:38:42,040 --> 01:38:43,240 right? The moment the United States 2012 01:38:43,240 --> 01:38:45,480 build Russia, the whole theory was like, OK, this country's 2013 01:38:45,480 --> 01:38:47,040 going to collapse, the government's going to go. 2014 01:38:47,040 --> 01:38:49,120 That's not what happened. They just built around that, 2015 01:38:49,200 --> 01:38:51,680 right? Like, I saw crazy videos of like 2016 01:38:51,920 --> 01:38:54,560 shopping malls where like, they literally just changed the 2017 01:38:54,560 --> 01:38:56,840 logos. But the products inside are 2018 01:38:56,840 --> 01:38:59,680 exactly the same, same, right? So it it didn't work. 2019 01:38:59,720 --> 01:39:03,800 And and again, do you think that Russia, even if the US drops the 2020 01:39:03,800 --> 01:39:06,000 sanctions, do you think the United States is just going to 2021 01:39:06,000 --> 01:39:09,120 go back and say, I mean, Russia is going to go back and say, oh, 2022 01:39:09,120 --> 01:39:10,720 you know what, let's just use the suicide. 2023 01:39:10,920 --> 01:39:12,360 They're never going to do that again. 2024 01:39:12,720 --> 01:39:14,880 Not if there's an alternative, of course, which there is. 2025 01:39:14,880 --> 01:39:17,360 So if there's no other party to go to, I'm just kind of mingling 2026 01:39:17,360 --> 01:39:19,520 outside, but oh, there's another party right here, I'll go over 2027 01:39:19,520 --> 01:39:21,400 there and I'm not going to go back to that party because these 2028 01:39:21,400 --> 01:39:22,760 people let me do what I want to do. 2029 01:39:23,080 --> 01:39:25,440 So where that where that ties back to Bitcoin, the other 2030 01:39:25,440 --> 01:39:29,040 catalysts I'm talking about is that's obviously causing gold to 2031 01:39:29,040 --> 01:39:31,360 catch a big bid. And gold's going to continue to 2032 01:39:31,360 --> 01:39:34,480 pump really hard because central banks are now adding gold. 2033 01:39:34,560 --> 01:39:37,560 So, so the US Treasuries in the reserve have dropped from 60 to 2034 01:39:37,560 --> 01:39:41,480 40 and gold's gone up to 30. Like this is a big shift, right? 2035 01:39:41,720 --> 01:39:44,160 But while gold is going to continue to catch a bid because 2036 01:39:44,160 --> 01:39:48,280 that's happening from a sovereign level, we the people, 2037 01:39:48,280 --> 01:39:50,320 the individuals, institutions are going to be running the 2038 01:39:50,320 --> 01:39:52,640 Bitcoin. We're going to be ahead of the 2039 01:39:52,640 --> 01:39:53,920 curve. We understand Bitcoin is a 2040 01:39:53,920 --> 01:39:57,720 higher beta than gold is. And I think, I think, you know, 2041 01:39:57,720 --> 01:40:01,040 JP Morgan called the debasement trade was gold and Bitcoin 2042 01:40:01,040 --> 01:40:03,200 together. And I think we'll see the more 2043 01:40:03,200 --> 01:40:06,720 institutional adoption of gold for now, but I think Bitcoin is 2044 01:40:06,720 --> 01:40:07,920 also going to be catching a bit with that. 2045 01:40:08,680 --> 01:40:12,760 Fantastic, ladies and gentlemen, Mark Moss in the Simply Studio. 2046 01:40:12,760 --> 01:40:14,760 First interview in the Simply Studio. 2047 01:40:14,960 --> 01:40:17,920 Guys, go check out the Mark Moss YouTube channel. 2048 01:40:17,920 --> 01:40:20,880 One of my favorite creators. A man is so talented. 2049 01:40:20,880 --> 01:40:24,480 The personal inspiration for me. Mark, thank you so much for 2050 01:40:24,480 --> 01:40:26,480 joining me. Really appreciate it. 2051 01:40:26,520 --> 01:40:28,720 I'll see you guys in the next Simply Bitcoin IRL. 2052 01:40:28,720 --> 01:40:29,440 Take care, everybody.