1 00:00:01,000 --> 00:00:04,200 Welcome to Keith's night, don't tread on anyone and the 2 00:00:04,200 --> 00:00:08,200 libertarian Institute today, I am joined by Lori Calhoun, 3 00:00:08,300 --> 00:00:12,800 senior fellow at the libertarian Institute and author of we kill, 4 00:00:12,800 --> 00:00:17,600 because we can from soldiering to assassination in the Drone 5 00:00:17,600 --> 00:00:18,500 age. Miss Calhoun. 6 00:00:18,500 --> 00:00:21,300 Thank you so much for your time. Thanks for having me. 7 00:00:22,400 --> 00:00:25,800 What is just War Theory and what can it teach us about? 8 00:00:25,800 --> 00:00:30,000 How to determine the legitimacy of a current or future military? 9 00:00:30,100 --> 00:00:32,600 Intervention, huh. Good question. 10 00:00:33,000 --> 00:00:38,500 Just War theory is an apparatus devised by Catholic theologians 11 00:00:38,700 --> 00:00:40,700 long, long ago, beginning with st. 12 00:00:40,700 --> 00:00:44,900 Augustine in the fourth Century ad, and it was elaborated 13 00:00:44,900 --> 00:00:48,100 further by other Scholars throughout the Middle, Ages up, 14 00:00:48,100 --> 00:00:50,000 to st. Thomas Aquinas. 15 00:00:50,000 --> 00:00:52,800 And even up to the present day, they're still Scholars, who are 16 00:00:53,500 --> 00:00:59,400 tweaking it and what it does is it offers leaders a framework by 17 00:00:59,400 --> 00:01:04,200 which to do Determine whether or not the wars, they Envision are 18 00:01:04,200 --> 00:01:07,200 permitted or not, are they just or the unjust? 19 00:01:07,500 --> 00:01:12,100 So the reason why this was important way back when when it 20 00:01:12,100 --> 00:01:16,000 first was devised was because these people were Christians. 21 00:01:16,300 --> 00:01:19,600 So if you're a Christian on the face of it, you can't kill 22 00:01:19,600 --> 00:01:23,000 people, Thou shalt not kill. So they needed to have some 23 00:01:23,000 --> 00:01:26,500 framework to make it possible for leaders who wanted to go to 24 00:01:26,500 --> 00:01:28,900 war, to go to war. And so they devised. 25 00:01:30,100 --> 00:01:33,500 These conditions, the use odd Bellum conditions on going to 26 00:01:33,500 --> 00:01:37,300 war and the use in Belo conditions on conduct during a 27 00:01:37,300 --> 00:01:41,300 war already. Wait, so in some ways, the 28 00:01:41,400 --> 00:01:46,500 criteria are commonsensical. So legitimate Authority. 29 00:01:46,600 --> 00:01:50,200 You have to be an illegitimate Authority in order to take your 30 00:01:50,200 --> 00:01:52,200 country to war or to take your group tour. 31 00:01:53,100 --> 00:01:57,200 It has to be a just cause you can't just go wage a war for 32 00:01:57,200 --> 00:02:03,900 some random reason. The the means of War have to be 33 00:02:03,900 --> 00:02:07,100 proportional to what you're trying to accomplish. 34 00:02:07,200 --> 00:02:09,900 Okay? Other ones it. 35 00:02:09,900 --> 00:02:12,500 Oh, a really good one. Is it has to be Last Resort. 36 00:02:12,600 --> 00:02:15,600 Okay, so there, you have to have exhausted. 37 00:02:15,800 --> 00:02:20,300 All other non War means to a resolution of the conflict 38 00:02:20,300 --> 00:02:23,100 before you can go to war, according to traditional, just 39 00:02:23,100 --> 00:02:27,500 War Theory. So and then, you know, once the 40 00:02:27,500 --> 00:02:29,600 war is waged, there are there conditions. 41 00:02:29,600 --> 00:02:34,200 You're To follow in in the war use in Bala which include 42 00:02:34,200 --> 00:02:39,500 treating soldiers as human beings, not targeting 43 00:02:39,800 --> 00:02:44,100 non-combatants. Treating captured soldiers as 44 00:02:44,100 --> 00:02:46,900 though they were non combatants as though they were 45 00:02:46,900 --> 00:02:49,200 non-combatants, okay? So they're no longer armed. 46 00:02:49,200 --> 00:02:51,900 So they're the equivalent of non-combatants once they've been 47 00:02:51,900 --> 00:02:56,900 stripped of their weapons. And so this little framework has 48 00:02:56,900 --> 00:02:58,600 been used. It's been trotted out by 49 00:02:58,600 --> 00:03:03,300 leaders. Throughout history to rap to, I 50 00:03:03,300 --> 00:03:08,300 argue rationalize their Wars. So in my view, my rather 51 00:03:08,300 --> 00:03:11,500 scathing critique of the just Worth area is called warrant 52 00:03:11,500 --> 00:03:14,300 illusion. A Critical examination where I 53 00:03:14,300 --> 00:03:17,900 try to show that rather than restraining leaders from waging 54 00:03:17,900 --> 00:03:22,500 Wars which they should not be taking their groups into it has 55 00:03:22,500 --> 00:03:27,700 served as a rhetorical. Propaganda apparatus to make it 56 00:03:27,700 --> 00:03:31,400 easier to take people to war. So you just say, oh, you know, 57 00:03:31,800 --> 00:03:35,800 this this is a just war did George h.w. 58 00:03:35,800 --> 00:03:38,000 Bush. Famously did this before the 59 00:03:38,000 --> 00:03:41,800 1991 Gulf War. He trotted out explicitly, the 60 00:03:41,800 --> 00:03:45,200 theory and went down, the bullet points and said, you know, 61 00:03:45,500 --> 00:03:48,300 Saddam Hussein committed this crime. 62 00:03:48,300 --> 00:03:53,000 So this is a just cause we have to you know, free the Kuwaiti 63 00:03:53,000 --> 00:03:57,300 land and Dress this wrong. That was done by said, emphasis 64 00:03:57,300 --> 00:04:00,900 a and it's a last resort. We can't Resort we can negotiate 65 00:04:00,900 --> 00:04:04,400 with him because he's a Madman. So the only thing we can do is 66 00:04:04,400 --> 00:04:07,300 go to war, you know, it went on and on and on and so he got the 67 00:04:07,300 --> 00:04:16,000 entire world practically behind that that call to war and can't. 68 00:04:16,000 --> 00:04:21,700 Can it be used to help determine whether or not a war? 69 00:04:21,700 --> 00:04:26,800 Is just I think if you actually read The requirements, 70 00:04:26,800 --> 00:04:32,100 literally, it turns out that nearly none of the wars during 71 00:04:32,100 --> 00:04:35,300 our lifetime certainly have satisfied, the criteria. 72 00:04:35,300 --> 00:04:39,200 The problem is that the the the tenants of just War, Theory are 73 00:04:39,200 --> 00:04:42,500 so malleable and there's a subject to infinite 74 00:04:42,500 --> 00:04:46,100 interpretation and the ultimate problem is that the legitimate 75 00:04:46,100 --> 00:04:49,300 Authority himself. Has the interpretive prerogative 76 00:04:49,400 --> 00:04:52,300 about how to interpret every other requirement, okay? 77 00:04:52,300 --> 00:04:56,400 So once you have a legitimate Authority name, Then he decrees 78 00:04:56,600 --> 00:05:00,300 that this is a just cause from his interpretation and he does. 79 00:05:00,300 --> 00:05:02,700 He decrees that, this is the last resort from his 80 00:05:02,700 --> 00:05:05,100 interpretation and that the means are proportional. 81 00:05:05,100 --> 00:05:07,100 And then he says, okay, look, we satisfied all these 82 00:05:07,100 --> 00:05:08,000 requirements. Let's go. 83 00:05:09,200 --> 00:05:14,400 So, you wrote a paper titled, how much violence breeds 84 00:05:14,400 --> 00:05:17,300 violence. Some utilitarian considerations, 85 00:05:17,300 --> 00:05:20,500 where you discuss important? Long-range consequences. 86 00:05:20,700 --> 00:05:24,200 Rarely mentioned in utilitarian defenses of particular 87 00:05:24,200 --> 00:05:28,600 decisions. To engage States in war the 88 00:05:28,600 --> 00:05:30,100 reason. I think this is so important is 89 00:05:30,100 --> 00:05:35,000 because the great propaganda trick is to assume no downsides, 90 00:05:35,100 --> 00:05:37,800 we should defend Taiwan. We should defend Ukraine. 91 00:05:37,800 --> 00:05:42,100 We should liberate Iraq. We should liberate Japan without 92 00:05:42,100 --> 00:05:44,300 ever talking about the downsides. 93 00:05:44,300 --> 00:05:46,600 There's no costs in this world. There's just a bunch of 94 00:05:46,608 --> 00:05:49,000 benefits. And the question is, do you want 95 00:05:49,000 --> 00:05:51,600 to have a bunch of benefits or you with the terrorists? 96 00:05:51,800 --> 00:05:55,800 So when it comes to laying out the costs of War, What is the 97 00:05:55,800 --> 00:05:59,500 utilitarian a case that utilitarian case against 98 00:05:59,500 --> 00:06:03,400 military interventions? Okay, the utilitarian case is 99 00:06:03,400 --> 00:06:08,200 very strong and it has to include what you just mentioned, 100 00:06:08,200 --> 00:06:11,900 which are the long-term effects which are never ever ever 101 00:06:11,900 --> 00:06:16,900 considered before going to war or if they're considered their 102 00:06:16,900 --> 00:06:20,900 minimized and falsified by saying, oh, we'll be in and out, 103 00:06:20,900 --> 00:06:23,500 okay, we're going to go in, we're going to remove Saddam 104 00:06:23,500 --> 00:06:26,200 Hussein's weapons of message. Destructions and it will be out 105 00:06:26,200 --> 00:06:27,800 of there and then Iraq will be free. 106 00:06:27,800 --> 00:06:30,400 That's how its painted in reality as we saw through the 107 00:06:30,407 --> 00:06:33,100 war on terror. That's never how it works out. 108 00:06:33,100 --> 00:06:35,500 It works out that you end up killing, you know, millions of 109 00:06:35,500 --> 00:06:39,300 people displacing Millions, more maiming million people leaving, 110 00:06:39,900 --> 00:06:43,200 you know, thousands upon thousands of were orphans and 111 00:06:43,900 --> 00:06:47,800 widows basically wrecking. The entire country, is what we 112 00:06:47,800 --> 00:06:50,300 did in Iraq, and Afghanistan, and other places in the Middle 113 00:06:50,300 --> 00:06:53,200 East. So, the utilitarian argument 114 00:06:53,200 --> 00:06:57,500 against War would be You have to look at, not only the short-term 115 00:06:57,500 --> 00:07:01,300 consequences of redressing, what you claim to be a wrong or 116 00:07:01,300 --> 00:07:02,800 dealing with the problem that you need. 117 00:07:02,800 --> 00:07:06,800 Need you believe needs to be resolved but also looking at the 118 00:07:06,800 --> 00:07:09,800 long-term consequences and one of the long-term consequences 119 00:07:09,800 --> 00:07:17,000 which I also discussed in the chapter on utilitarianism in war 120 00:07:17,000 --> 00:07:24,600 and delusion which Which is really important is that you 121 00:07:24,600 --> 00:07:30,200 have to look at the effect of normalizing violence as a means 122 00:07:30,200 --> 00:07:33,800 to conflict resolution. So every time, your country goes 123 00:07:33,800 --> 00:07:36,700 out and bombs just bombed to Smithereens a country. 124 00:07:37,000 --> 00:07:40,700 You're saying to everyone that this is how you resolve conflict 125 00:07:40,900 --> 00:07:43,600 and we see this, we see the consequences of this in the 126 00:07:43,600 --> 00:07:46,100 Homeland. Every time one of these crazy 127 00:07:46,100 --> 00:07:50,500 persons goes out and does a mass shooting, he has some grievance 128 00:07:50,500 --> 00:07:55,900 and he's decided that the way you act on your unhappiness and 129 00:07:55,900 --> 00:08:03,100 your your your dissatisfaction with some aspect of society is 130 00:08:03,100 --> 00:08:07,900 you go kill a bunch of people. So so that is a really important 131 00:08:07,900 --> 00:08:11,600 long-range consequence which is never taken into consideration 132 00:08:12,200 --> 00:08:15,200 by either, short-term utilitarian advocates for war. 133 00:08:15,400 --> 00:08:20,600 Or by just were theorists, you have been writing the the papers 134 00:08:20,600 --> 00:08:24,100 I was looking at. Went back to the late 90s on 135 00:08:24,300 --> 00:08:29,200 this issue and I was born in 96 and the biggest thing. 136 00:08:29,400 --> 00:08:33,000 And my life was always about the terrorists and the terrorists 137 00:08:33,000 --> 00:08:35,900 are going to come kill us and, and it's sort of random. 138 00:08:35,900 --> 00:08:38,400 It's not like we see the Army coming over the hill. 139 00:08:38,600 --> 00:08:41,600 It's like, the person next to you they could be in Afghanistan 140 00:08:41,700 --> 00:08:43,900 or they could be in Phoenix, we don't know. 141 00:08:44,200 --> 00:08:47,400 And this was one of the high alerts that we were always sort 142 00:08:47,400 --> 00:08:51,500 of walking on eggshells around. And now that has like 143 00:08:51,500 --> 00:08:53,200 disappeared from the headlines completely. 144 00:08:53,300 --> 00:08:57,200 Now with Russia, now it's China, what happened to all of these 145 00:08:57,200 --> 00:08:59,300 terrorists who wanted to kill us for our freedom? 146 00:08:59,400 --> 00:09:01,500 Eames. Yeah, that's a really 147 00:09:01,500 --> 00:09:05,600 interesting question. I think that the big mistake 148 00:09:05,600 --> 00:09:10,700 post-911 is to cast the crimes committed on that day. 149 00:09:11,200 --> 00:09:13,500 As acts of War. It was not a declaration of war. 150 00:09:13,500 --> 00:09:18,200 It was, it was a group of crimes committed by a small group of 151 00:09:18,200 --> 00:09:22,500 people, and in retaliation. This was used as a pretext for 152 00:09:22,500 --> 00:09:25,300 waging, full-scale Wars on multiple Nations, throughout the 153 00:09:25,308 --> 00:09:28,600 Middle East so that kept us pretty busy for 20 years. 154 00:09:28,600 --> 00:09:32,700 And then Now we've moved on to other crises so we have the 155 00:09:32,700 --> 00:09:37,200 covid crisis that detracted everyone and now because I guess 156 00:09:37,200 --> 00:09:40,100 everyone was, you know, busy worrying about covid for two 157 00:09:40,100 --> 00:09:42,900 years. Now suddenly Ukraine becomes the 158 00:09:42,900 --> 00:09:46,700 big issue and Russia's invasion of Ukraine and our support of 159 00:09:46,708 --> 00:09:52,100 the, you know, Ukrainian sovereignty with no apparent 160 00:09:52,100 --> 00:09:55,000 memory of what happened throughout the war on terror, 161 00:09:55,100 --> 00:09:57,200 okay? So, you see blinken coming out 162 00:09:57,200 --> 00:09:59,200 and saying, oh, you can't just invade a country. 163 00:09:59,300 --> 00:10:02,200 Tree but we just did that you know we just debated country 164 00:10:02,200 --> 00:10:04,800 after country and of this is the same time that he's saying this 165 00:10:05,400 --> 00:10:08,500 we're bombing places all over the Middle East continually so 166 00:10:08,500 --> 00:10:11,100 we're still carrying out these drone strikes in Somalia 167 00:10:11,100 --> 00:10:15,300 recently in Syria, etcetera. And so it's a real contradiction 168 00:10:16,200 --> 00:10:21,100 because on the one hand, the the war machine is going on in the 169 00:10:21,100 --> 00:10:23,800 background, okay? While Ukraine is on the front 170 00:10:23,800 --> 00:10:27,100 pages. But in, in some ways, it's like 171 00:10:27,100 --> 00:10:31,100 the attention of the populace has And switched. 172 00:10:31,200 --> 00:10:37,700 So as to diminish the actual implications of our war on 173 00:10:37,700 --> 00:10:43,700 terror for the conflict in Ukraine, When it comes to 174 00:10:44,300 --> 00:10:49,300 normalizing violence, are you familiar with the Omar Mateen 175 00:10:49,300 --> 00:10:55,100 situation at Pulse Nightclub? I mean, I think I know basically 176 00:10:55,100 --> 00:10:58,600 this was this act that happened a few years ago, right? 177 00:10:59,200 --> 00:11:00,200 Yeah. Okay. 178 00:11:00,300 --> 00:11:03,500 I should have talked with you but no, I really. 179 00:11:03,500 --> 00:11:06,100 I think they remember and I shouldn't have randomly. 180 00:11:06,200 --> 00:11:07,900 No, it's okay. You can refresh my memory. 181 00:11:07,900 --> 00:11:12,500 I mean, I recall that there were Is ways of interpreting it, but 182 00:11:12,500 --> 00:11:16,200 what was your interpretation? Well for years, I had assumed 183 00:11:16,200 --> 00:11:21,600 that this was a homophobic attack or a gay hate crime 184 00:11:22,100 --> 00:11:26,400 because it took place at a gay nightclub the Pulse Nightclub 185 00:11:26,500 --> 00:11:30,500 and I believe Orlando, Florida, 50 people were killed and then 186 00:11:30,800 --> 00:11:34,800 some years later, Glenn Greenwald shares the 911, 187 00:11:34,800 --> 00:11:39,700 transcript, and the transcript is high. 188 00:11:39,700 --> 00:11:42,200 This is my name. Is Omar Mateen. 189 00:11:42,200 --> 00:11:44,400 I'm with the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria. 190 00:11:44,600 --> 00:11:47,300 America needs to stop bombing Iraq and Syria. 191 00:11:47,400 --> 00:11:49,500 You're killing women, and children, America. 192 00:11:49,500 --> 00:11:51,200 And Russia are killing women and children. 193 00:11:51,400 --> 00:11:56,400 He says this probably 10 times, I read it, and it was a little, 194 00:11:57,200 --> 00:12:00,700 it was so repetitive that I just had to, like, cut some of it 195 00:12:00,700 --> 00:12:04,400 out. I sort of brought that up with 196 00:12:04,400 --> 00:12:06,000 you beforehand. I'm actually no. 197 00:12:06,000 --> 00:12:09,900 But, you know, you're right. Actually, every domestic 198 00:12:09,900 --> 00:12:11,100 territory. Okay. 199 00:12:11,300 --> 00:12:15,500 Ace during throughout the war on terror involved, people who when 200 00:12:15,500 --> 00:12:19,400 they actually, you know, made it to a trial and weren't just 201 00:12:19,700 --> 00:12:21,800 whacked. They said that they were 202 00:12:21,800 --> 00:12:26,100 retaliating to the Drone to the Drone Wars, to the attacks, on 203 00:12:26,100 --> 00:12:28,900 civilians in Pakistan, and Iraq and Afghanistan. 204 00:12:28,900 --> 00:12:33,600 And all of them said this, so he wasn't alone, you know, Anwar 205 00:12:33,600 --> 00:12:37,600 al-aulaqi, who of course, was executed by a drone on. 206 00:12:37,700 --> 00:12:44,100 I think September 30th, 2011, he also Against our Lawless, 207 00:12:44,100 --> 00:12:47,200 assault of the people, on the people of the, the Middle East, 208 00:12:47,200 --> 00:12:50,700 in the way that Osama Bin Laden. Did, you know before 9/11, which 209 00:12:50,700 --> 00:12:54,600 is not to, excuse 9/11, of course, but it's to say that 210 00:12:54,600 --> 00:12:59,700 these people all had Grievances and they followed the framework 211 00:12:59,700 --> 00:13:04,000 established by our repeated, use of military force in addressing 212 00:13:04,000 --> 00:13:05,400 conflict. All of them did. 213 00:13:05,600 --> 00:13:10,300 So, what is Jihad? But the islamist version of just 214 00:13:10,300 --> 00:13:14,100 War Theory. So we we have a grievance and 215 00:13:14,100 --> 00:13:16,400 we're going to dress it and this is the only way we can do it, 216 00:13:16,400 --> 00:13:19,300 you need to be prepared for Jihad and go out just in the way 217 00:13:19,300 --> 00:13:22,900 that the just Warriors would say, so the very, they're 218 00:13:22,900 --> 00:13:25,200 completely analogous. I mean, from the perspective of 219 00:13:25,200 --> 00:13:28,500 the perpetrators of these terrorist acts, they're doing 220 00:13:28,500 --> 00:13:31,200 what they have to do because they cannot stand by and 221 00:13:31,200 --> 00:13:33,200 continue to watch what is going on. 222 00:13:35,100 --> 00:13:38,400 You wrote a book, we kill because we can from soldiering 223 00:13:38,400 --> 00:13:42,400 to assassination in the Drone age, which countries has the US 224 00:13:42,400 --> 00:13:46,000 military used drone, strikes. Inand, for what alleged purpose? 225 00:13:47,100 --> 00:13:50,000 Oh, all over the map, really a. So certainly all over the Middle 226 00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:54,100 East, obviously Iraq. Afghanistan, Somalia Yemen, 227 00:13:54,100 --> 00:14:00,200 Pakistan Syria all over North Africa to their drone bases. 228 00:14:00,200 --> 00:14:03,800 Now, dotting Africa. So drones were launched from 229 00:14:03,800 --> 00:14:07,000 these places and We don't know about all of them, we only know 230 00:14:07,000 --> 00:14:13,900 about the ones they admit to, but the danger is, is growing 231 00:14:13,900 --> 00:14:19,100 for people in countries which have yet to be democratized. 232 00:14:19,100 --> 00:14:22,200 And the reason is, because the, the despots of these leaders are 233 00:14:22,200 --> 00:14:24,900 able to use this drone technology to eliminate their 234 00:14:24,900 --> 00:14:27,900 political enemies, it's actually kind of awful. 235 00:14:28,100 --> 00:14:31,200 So, you know, we say that we're the champions of democracy, but 236 00:14:31,200 --> 00:14:34,100 in fact, we're Force multipliers of tyrants all throughout the 237 00:14:34,100 --> 00:14:35,000 Middle East. East. 238 00:14:36,400 --> 00:14:38,600 Yeah. If it's so vitally important to 239 00:14:38,600 --> 00:14:42,100 give a person a vote once every four years, I think not 240 00:14:42,100 --> 00:14:45,300 murdering them would be a little more important. 241 00:14:45,300 --> 00:14:49,100 We might want to put that above. Like, if I lost my right to vote 242 00:14:49,100 --> 00:14:52,800 that you know, maybe I wouldn't be too happy if I were murdered. 243 00:14:52,900 --> 00:14:55,400 I wouldn't have the ability to not be happy. 244 00:14:56,800 --> 00:14:59,500 Can we have some standards? Yeah, I know that's it. 245 00:14:59,500 --> 00:15:02,100 That's a really important point and people forget about that. 246 00:15:02,100 --> 00:15:07,400 I mean when you just Let loose the dogs of war so to speak. 247 00:15:07,500 --> 00:15:13,300 You're about to annihilate. People's basic, not only, you 248 00:15:13,300 --> 00:15:16,200 know, rights to choice but their basic right to even have an 249 00:15:16,200 --> 00:15:20,900 opinion. I'm so so, so you're basically 250 00:15:20,900 --> 00:15:22,500 tossed out all of your principles. 251 00:15:22,500 --> 00:15:25,300 Once you start just killing people willy-nilly because they 252 00:15:25,300 --> 00:15:29,000 might possibly pose a possible future threat to your country. 253 00:15:29,000 --> 00:15:32,900 I mean, it's wild what happened throughout the The war on 254 00:15:32,900 --> 00:15:34,900 terror. I mean, we completely abandon 255 00:15:34,900 --> 00:15:43,100 any notion of due process. Any notion of Carrying about the 256 00:15:43,100 --> 00:15:46,600 human nature of our victims. Many of these victims as the war 257 00:15:46,600 --> 00:15:49,000 on terror, progressed, the victims became younger and 258 00:15:49,000 --> 00:15:50,600 younger. So, we were killing people, you 259 00:15:50,600 --> 00:15:52,900 know, 16 year olds impressionable, teenagers, who 260 00:15:52,900 --> 00:15:55,100 had joined up forces with the local terrorist group, because 261 00:15:55,100 --> 00:15:59,400 they saw some child murdered by a drone, so that's why they 262 00:15:59,400 --> 00:16:02,000 signed up. So, these people are not, most 263 00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:05,200 of these people were not in any sense intrinsically evil. 264 00:16:05,200 --> 00:16:08,000 They were angry. They were angry and they 265 00:16:08,000 --> 00:16:12,700 retaliated because they Just as I said earlier, with regard to 266 00:16:12,700 --> 00:16:15,900 the domestic terrorist cases, they couldn't stand by and do 267 00:16:15,900 --> 00:16:19,000 nothing because they're so outraged by what happened and 268 00:16:19,000 --> 00:16:22,600 it's a I think it's a tragedy. I argue is are you this at the 269 00:16:22,600 --> 00:16:27,000 end of we kill because we can't it's a tragedy that we've killed 270 00:16:27,300 --> 00:16:32,700 some of the brightest. And you know most promising 271 00:16:33,100 --> 00:16:39,100 young people throughout the Middle East because they had the 272 00:16:40,000 --> 00:16:44,100 Of moral outrage against The Invasion which in fact was the 273 00:16:44,100 --> 00:16:46,300 invasions, which were in fact illegal. 274 00:16:46,700 --> 00:16:51,100 So they were acting on their perception of the wrongdoing 275 00:16:51,100 --> 00:16:53,200 that was being perpetrated by the United States. 276 00:16:53,200 --> 00:16:57,500 And so they teamed up with the local thugs, which were usually 277 00:16:57,500 --> 00:16:59,700 Isis, or Al Qaeda. And as a result, they were 278 00:16:59,700 --> 00:17:05,700 killed What data do you have on the number of civilians, 279 00:17:06,099 --> 00:17:10,099 civilian deaths when it comes to this drone program operation? 280 00:17:10,400 --> 00:17:14,400 And in this case, for the sake of argument, a civilian would be 281 00:17:14,500 --> 00:17:17,400 a death that occurred as a causal result of the Drone. 282 00:17:17,599 --> 00:17:21,500 Who was not the intended target, any statistics on that there are 283 00:17:21,500 --> 00:17:25,599 statistics and they vary widely depending upon the source, okay? 284 00:17:25,599 --> 00:17:29,000 So, we know that thousands of people have been killed by 285 00:17:29,000 --> 00:17:33,600 drones, so that's that's a given Obama admitted it in his report 286 00:17:33,600 --> 00:17:39,100 in 2016 we have killed you know it was approaching 3000 in that 287 00:17:39,100 --> 00:17:41,300 report. It's probably many times more 288 00:17:41,300 --> 00:17:44,000 than that according to several different sources reprieve. 289 00:17:46,000 --> 00:17:52,500 So etcetera, the problem is that the administration not only 290 00:17:52,500 --> 00:17:56,700 killed thousands people but they redefined what constituted an 291 00:17:56,700 --> 00:17:59,800 enemy killed in action. So an enemy killed an action 292 00:18:00,600 --> 00:18:04,000 under the Obama Administration. Administration became any male 293 00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:07,600 who was killed by a drone who was of military age. 294 00:18:07,700 --> 00:18:10,500 And we know this thanks to the Whistleblower Daniel Hale. 295 00:18:10,600 --> 00:18:12,700 Now serving a federal prison sentence. 296 00:18:13,500 --> 00:18:16,500 We know that the United States government, effectively 297 00:18:16,500 --> 00:18:19,400 inverted, the burden of proof and to find anyone that killed 298 00:18:19,400 --> 00:18:23,400 as guilty until proven innocent provided. 299 00:18:23,400 --> 00:18:28,800 They were within the, the age of military Capability. 300 00:18:28,800 --> 00:18:32,100 So if they're like between the ages of 16 and 50, or something 301 00:18:32,100 --> 00:18:35,300 or somewhere around there, then they were defined as enemy 302 00:18:35,300 --> 00:18:36,800 killed in action when they were killed by drone. 303 00:18:36,800 --> 00:18:39,500 So what's the upshot of this? It means that if there were 304 00:18:39,500 --> 00:18:43,800 innocent teenagers killed by these drones, we don't know from 305 00:18:43,800 --> 00:18:45,900 the administration because they claim that they are all 306 00:18:45,900 --> 00:18:49,700 terrorists by definition. So your brown-skinned, you're 18 307 00:18:49,700 --> 00:18:52,800 years old and you're in a place where they think terrorists are 308 00:18:52,800 --> 00:18:57,200 hiding out, they kill you, they call you a dead terrorist. 309 00:18:57,300 --> 00:19:01,900 What you become in effect? Convicted of terrorism through 310 00:19:01,900 --> 00:19:05,600 State execution. So to answer your initial 311 00:19:05,600 --> 00:19:09,800 question, we don't know how many civilians have been killed 312 00:19:09,800 --> 00:19:13,800 because it depends on whether you deny the possibility of a 313 00:19:13,800 --> 00:19:18,300 military-age male noncombatant in these areas, okay? 314 00:19:18,300 --> 00:19:20,800 Because if you if you deny that possibility, then it looks like, 315 00:19:20,800 --> 00:19:23,000 oh there are very there. Have been very few civilian 316 00:19:23,000 --> 00:19:26,200 casualties if you recognize that, in fact, that's completely 317 00:19:26,200 --> 00:19:28,900 bogus because these people are being killed on the basis of 318 00:19:28,900 --> 00:19:32,500 circumstantial evidence. Is including bribed information, 319 00:19:32,500 --> 00:19:34,900 derived from destitute, people who need money. 320 00:19:35,300 --> 00:19:40,500 And also things like Drone footage and SIM card data which 321 00:19:40,700 --> 00:19:43,400 is completely circumstantial would never hold up in a court 322 00:19:43,400 --> 00:19:47,300 of law in the United States. Then you realize that lots of 323 00:19:47,300 --> 00:19:50,400 these people probably were innocent another argument for 324 00:19:50,500 --> 00:19:55,000 concluding that among the thousands of Target's who were 325 00:19:55,000 --> 00:19:56,400 killed by the United States government. 326 00:19:56,400 --> 00:20:00,700 According to the United States government itself, many of them 327 00:20:00,700 --> 00:20:04,600 were innocent, a really strong argument for this is that the 328 00:20:04,600 --> 00:20:08,200 men who were rounded up and thrown into guantánamo Bay 329 00:20:08,700 --> 00:20:12,100 turned out, it turned out that 85% of them were innocent, okay? 330 00:20:12,100 --> 00:20:16,600 So since they use the same kind of Intel to drop their Hit List, 331 00:20:16,900 --> 00:20:18,500 you know, when they stopped imprisoning people and just 332 00:20:18,500 --> 00:20:20,700 decided killed on capture. Will just kill everybody. 333 00:20:21,000 --> 00:20:25,100 Since I use the same sort of Intel inde, I got hit list for 334 00:20:25,100 --> 00:20:27,800 drone strikes as they did in rounding up. 335 00:20:27,800 --> 00:20:30,800 The people who ended up in Guantanamo Bay, 85% of whom were 336 00:20:30,800 --> 00:20:33,300 totally innocent. You have really good grounds for 337 00:20:33,300 --> 00:20:35,100 believing. That lots of the people killed 338 00:20:35,100 --> 00:20:40,400 by drones have been innocent when it comes to legitimate so 339 00:20:40,400 --> 00:20:43,400 to speak. Target's when if you were having 340 00:20:43,400 --> 00:20:49,300 to steal man the case for the Pentagon, what is something that 341 00:20:49,300 --> 00:20:52,900 they would consider a really legitimate Target and a big 342 00:20:52,900 --> 00:20:55,100 success? In the Drone program. 343 00:20:56,300 --> 00:21:01,500 Well, they determined that someone is potentially Dangerous 344 00:21:01,500 --> 00:21:04,900 by his associations with other people who have been determined 345 00:21:04,900 --> 00:21:08,500 to be potentially dangerous. So this is a really slippery 346 00:21:08,500 --> 00:21:15,400 slope and it the the problem is that there's a confirmation bias 347 00:21:15,400 --> 00:21:17,400 going on. So they think that someone is 348 00:21:17,400 --> 00:21:21,800 suspicious and then he acts in ways which are then interpreted 349 00:21:21,800 --> 00:21:23,800 as suspicious and then they kill him. 350 00:21:23,800 --> 00:21:27,100 So I really good example of this was the Drone Like on August 351 00:21:27,300 --> 00:21:32,300 29th, 2021 in Kabul, as the US government was departing, they 352 00:21:32,300 --> 00:21:36,600 killed this guy, who was driving around a white Toyota, Toyota 353 00:21:36,600 --> 00:21:41,400 Corolla and doing stuff that quote unquote looked suspicious. 354 00:21:41,400 --> 00:21:44,400 So he was like moving water and visiting people all over the 355 00:21:44,400 --> 00:21:47,700 city and they killed him with a drone strike. 356 00:21:47,700 --> 00:21:51,300 And along with him, nine other people, seven of whom were 357 00:21:51,300 --> 00:21:54,400 children because they were in the vicinity and it turned out 358 00:21:54,400 --> 00:21:58,000 that the guy was an aid worker. Are okay, but they had received 359 00:21:58,000 --> 00:22:02,100 Intel according to it. Some guy driving, a white Toyota 360 00:22:02,100 --> 00:22:05,300 Corolla was planning a strike on Kabul Airport. 361 00:22:05,400 --> 00:22:08,400 So, this was the basis for their strike and they came out after 362 00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:11,300 the strike and said, oh we got rid of this bad guy, we thwarted 363 00:22:11,300 --> 00:22:14,700 an attack on the Kabul Airport. Turned out two days later, 364 00:22:14,900 --> 00:22:16,900 journalists on the ground, ascertained that in fact, the 365 00:22:16,900 --> 00:22:19,000 guy had no connection to terrorist groups. 366 00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:23,700 In fact, he was an aid worker and the US government had no 367 00:22:23,700 --> 00:22:25,900 knowledge of his existence the day before. 368 00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:28,000 Are they? They killed him. 369 00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:32,200 So so this shows you how flimsy, the evidence actually can be the 370 00:22:32,200 --> 00:22:35,200 difference in this case and all the other cases is that there 371 00:22:35,200 --> 00:22:39,200 were people on the ground who could offer a counter-narrative, 372 00:22:39,200 --> 00:22:42,700 usually the Pentagon controlled the narrative. 373 00:22:42,700 --> 00:22:46,100 So they said they killed somebody and it was like end of 374 00:22:46,100 --> 00:22:48,900 story because there was no one on the ground to be able to you 375 00:22:48,900 --> 00:22:52,700 know, deny what they said. And in this case because they 376 00:22:52,700 --> 00:22:54,800 were withdrawing from Afghanistan, they no longer 377 00:22:54,800 --> 00:22:57,800 control the narrative. And so the question is, how many 378 00:22:57,800 --> 00:23:01,000 of the people who were killed throughout the war on terror, 379 00:23:01,400 --> 00:23:05,200 were more like this Aid, worker? And, you know, who is for three 380 00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:07,700 days claimed to be a dead terrorist. 381 00:23:08,100 --> 00:23:11,300 In fact, completely innocent of any wrongdoing whatsoever but 382 00:23:11,300 --> 00:23:16,200 because of bad Intel he was pegged as a terrorist and then 383 00:23:16,200 --> 00:23:21,900 they when they observed him from drones Etc, they interpreted 384 00:23:21,900 --> 00:23:26,100 everything he did as suspicious. So to answer a question And 385 00:23:26,100 --> 00:23:29,200 that's a good example of the type of Intel that has been used 386 00:23:29,200 --> 00:23:35,300 to kill people. How many drones has the u.s. 387 00:23:35,300 --> 00:23:37,300 government used? I remember thinking it was, 388 00:23:37,300 --> 00:23:41,000 like, in the dozens, because I'd hear about it and I go, well, we 389 00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:43,000 must be hearing about it because it's so seldom. 390 00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:46,900 So, maybe there's one or two a year, or could it be as high as 391 00:23:46,900 --> 00:23:49,700 hundreds, or are there, literally thousands of these 392 00:23:49,700 --> 00:23:53,100 things happening and the news just would rather talk about 393 00:23:53,100 --> 00:23:57,400 trivial nonsense. Well, certainly, I think we have 394 00:23:57,400 --> 00:23:59,600 grounds for believing that they're happening more 395 00:23:59,600 --> 00:24:04,600 frequently. Then we know about because the 396 00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:06,900 Trump Administration stopped reporting on them. 397 00:24:06,900 --> 00:24:08,800 Okay. So Obama used hundreds of drone 398 00:24:08,800 --> 00:24:12,200 strikes, hundreds. He really upped the level, the 399 00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:15,500 frequency of the drone strikes, he used hundreds of them and he 400 00:24:15,500 --> 00:24:18,900 killed thousands of people. The Bush Administration used, I 401 00:24:18,900 --> 00:24:23,400 think 50 and Obama use like maybe 500 and then Trump just 402 00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:26,500 decided, you know, he decided it was tough to not like, like not 403 00:24:26,500 --> 00:24:28,300 report on it, so they just didn't report it. 404 00:24:28,300 --> 00:24:32,500 I, they put Jim Mattis. James Mathis on a A Long Leash 405 00:24:32,500 --> 00:24:34,700 and he just got to do you know, it was a free-for-all throughout 406 00:24:34,700 --> 00:24:38,300 the Middle East and no one. Really knows how many people 407 00:24:38,300 --> 00:24:40,900 were killed during that period because the government stopped 408 00:24:40,900 --> 00:24:44,900 reporting by Dan now is reporting, you know, when 409 00:24:44,900 --> 00:24:47,500 there's a drone strike and they consider it to be a success. 410 00:24:47,500 --> 00:24:54,400 So for example, the recent strike on Ayman al-zawahiri also 411 00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:59,400 in Kabul about a year after this poor Aid, worker and his family 412 00:24:59,700 --> 00:25:03,700 were all annihilate. Biden came out and said oh I 413 00:25:03,700 --> 00:25:07,900 just killed this number to Al Qaeda guy in Kabul. 414 00:25:07,900 --> 00:25:12,100 So so there the strikes were admitted when they look like 415 00:25:12,100 --> 00:25:13,900 some sort of victory in the war on terror. 416 00:25:13,900 --> 00:25:17,800 So Biden said, look you know I'm I'm as good as Obama he killed 417 00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:21,600 Osama Bin Laden will I killed, you know I'm on although I hear 418 00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:25,200 me, it's interesting case. I this was just this past 419 00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:30,500 summer, I think it was July 30th interesting case because there's 420 00:25:30,500 --> 00:25:32,800 no forensic evidence. They actually got this guy. 421 00:25:32,800 --> 00:25:36,600 This guy has been reported dead before in the Pakistani press 422 00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:40,000 and the Taliban upon the release of this news. 423 00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:43,600 And there's the big Fanfare that the media gave Biden, you know? 424 00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:45,900 Oh, he killed this evil guy. You know, they wanted to 425 00:25:45,900 --> 00:25:49,200 recreate the feeling of the populace. 426 00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:53,900 After Osama Bin Laden was killed, so they wanted sort of I 427 00:25:53,900 --> 00:25:59,000 think improve his ratings, but in any event, the Taliban came 428 00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:02,000 out and said, oh, actually that house was empty. 429 00:26:02,100 --> 00:26:05,100 There was no one in it. So we still don't know to this 430 00:26:05,100 --> 00:26:09,200 day whether or not this guy was killed by the the Biden 431 00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:13,400 Administration but we do know that he bragged about it and it 432 00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:17,100 was taken to be you know a proof that he's a great leader. 433 00:26:17,100 --> 00:26:19,700 I guess that was like the marketing line. 434 00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:23,400 Did they make sure to throw his body in the ocean afterwards? 435 00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:27,300 Ya know if they killed knowing there was nobody, the 436 00:26:27,300 --> 00:26:30,800 alternative is they killed their hapless Aid worker? 437 00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:32,600 Or someone else who happen to be in the house. 438 00:26:33,100 --> 00:26:35,700 But since there's been no forensic evidence produced 439 00:26:35,700 --> 00:26:38,300 whatsoever. I mean, I think that if there 440 00:26:38,300 --> 00:26:42,100 were a body, there would have to be DNA evidence confirmatory, or 441 00:26:42,100 --> 00:26:43,900 dis confirmatory one way or the other. 442 00:26:43,900 --> 00:26:46,500 I mean, especially the US government has been hunting this 443 00:26:46,500 --> 00:26:48,600 guy for 20 years. So they surely have DNA 444 00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:54,100 evidence, I mean, you know, some sort of Trace from a glass that 445 00:26:54,100 --> 00:26:57,800 he cup he drank out of whatever, they've got to have DNA evidence 446 00:26:57,800 --> 00:27:00,800 and if in fact he was who they said he was. 447 00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:03,800 Then there would there would be forensic evidence but the 448 00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:06,300 Pentagon itself said we don't anticipate having, you know, 449 00:27:06,300 --> 00:27:08,900 being able to share any forensic evidence. 450 00:27:08,900 --> 00:27:11,200 Well, there's nobody then there is no forensic evidence. 451 00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:14,500 So so I mean basically there are two options either the Taliban 452 00:27:14,500 --> 00:27:16,100 is right. You know, you never really liked 453 00:27:16,100 --> 00:27:20,300 to believe the Taliban but it's their country now and they said 454 00:27:20,300 --> 00:27:23,100 there was no one in the house and there's if there's no body, 455 00:27:23,100 --> 00:27:26,500 then No forensic evidence. If there is a body and it wasn't 456 00:27:26,500 --> 00:27:29,400 all and it wasn't, I'm on, I was already read that. 457 00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:33,900 It was someone else and presumably someone's husband or, 458 00:27:33,900 --> 00:27:37,100 you know, child and so there's got to be DNA evidence, DNA 459 00:27:37,100 --> 00:27:38,900 evidence of, that person's identity. 460 00:27:38,900 --> 00:27:41,300 So there there has to be DNA evidence. 461 00:27:41,300 --> 00:27:45,000 If in fact, there was a body but we have heard nothing about 462 00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:46,300 this. It just sort of, you know, we 463 00:27:46,300 --> 00:27:49,400 just moved on something else, you know, Putin is Hitler, you 464 00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:52,700 know. So The latest. 465 00:27:54,000 --> 00:27:57,100 You mentioned Daniel Hale. Are there any other drone 466 00:27:57,100 --> 00:28:00,700 program whistleblowers that people should look into if they 467 00:28:00,700 --> 00:28:03,100 want to get? Hopefully the most accurate 468 00:28:03,100 --> 00:28:05,700 least popular information about this issue. 469 00:28:06,500 --> 00:28:10,200 There have been quite a few drone operators who have come 470 00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:12,300 forth. There are some good documentary 471 00:28:12,300 --> 00:28:21,200 films on this and there's A group of apostate drone 472 00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:24,300 operators who abandoned the profession because they couldn't 473 00:28:24,300 --> 00:28:26,000 do it. Morally speaking anymore, they 474 00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:27,900 just couldn't do it. I have an article about this at 475 00:28:27,900 --> 00:28:31,100 my blog. It's called chew him up and spit 476 00:28:31,100 --> 00:28:35,000 him out the Drone operator Edition, and it actually gives 477 00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:37,200 some links to some of these people. 478 00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:40,200 Michael has is one of them Chon. Westmoreland I'm not sure 479 00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:41,300 actually how to pronounce that name. 480 00:28:41,300 --> 00:28:44,100 I think it's an Irish name. See I am, how do you pronounce 481 00:28:44,100 --> 00:28:46,900 that? So anyway, he's very active on 482 00:28:46,900 --> 00:28:50,300 Twitter and So these are people who have come out and said, you 483 00:28:50,300 --> 00:28:53,300 know this is like so wrong. We're just like killing people 484 00:28:53,300 --> 00:28:55,600 and they basis of circumstantial evidence and I'm not going to do 485 00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:57,800 it anymore. Brandon Bryant is probably the 486 00:28:57,800 --> 00:29:01,400 most famous of them. He came out back in 2012 after 487 00:29:01,400 --> 00:29:05,300 having served as a drone, operator for five years and he 488 00:29:05,300 --> 00:29:08,300 just he went all over the place. He was in Der Spiegel. 489 00:29:08,500 --> 00:29:11,500 Did interviews in Germany, Norway all over the place. 490 00:29:11,500 --> 00:29:14,900 I have not heard anything from him, you know, in a couple of 491 00:29:14,908 --> 00:29:16,300 years. Now, I don't know where he is, 492 00:29:16,300 --> 00:29:20,100 he was in Montana for a while but He was really good about 493 00:29:20,100 --> 00:29:23,200 coming out and just explaining his experience how, when he left 494 00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:28,500 the program, he was presented with a scorecard indicating that 495 00:29:28,500 --> 00:29:32,300 he had contributed to the deaths of 1626 people. 496 00:29:32,700 --> 00:29:35,700 And he has nightmares about this now because he has memories of 497 00:29:35,700 --> 00:29:40,100 cases where he was ordered to kill to do a strike where there 498 00:29:40,100 --> 00:29:43,500 was a small, what looked like a small child in the room. 499 00:29:43,500 --> 00:29:47,200 And, and his supervisors would say things like, oh no, that was 500 00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:50,700 a dog. But he has incredible. 501 00:29:50,700 --> 00:29:55,400 An incredible sense of guilt and moral injury for what he did. 502 00:29:55,600 --> 00:29:58,100 You know, he went into it thinking that he was going to be 503 00:29:58,200 --> 00:30:01,700 defending the country. And he also was, it was painted 504 00:30:01,700 --> 00:30:04,400 when they recruited him as a kind of James Bond thing. 505 00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:07,100 Like who, you know, I'm going to be this cool guy, saving the 506 00:30:07,100 --> 00:30:10,400 United States and then he came out of it feeling like, wow, I'm 507 00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:14,800 like a contract killer. I just kill people at the order 508 00:30:14,800 --> 00:30:17,900 of the customer and there have been other drone operators. 509 00:30:18,100 --> 00:30:22,100 More recently have come out and elucidated that they're told 510 00:30:22,100 --> 00:30:26,800 that they have to kill whomever quote-unquote, the customer says 511 00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:29,400 needs to be killed, so the customer I mean, who's the 512 00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:31,400 customer? You know, it's like some group 513 00:30:31,400 --> 00:30:35,500 of anonymous analyst, who have decided that they want to rack 514 00:30:35,500 --> 00:30:39,400 up some more dead terrorist and so their criteria are going to 515 00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:43,600 depend on their own moral views, you know, they may have no 516 00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:47,600 problem with killing lots of people, just to up their tally. 517 00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:52,700 I know you wrote a book, titled philosophy, Unmasked A Skeptics 518 00:30:52,700 --> 00:30:55,000 Guide from a philosophical standpoint. 519 00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:58,800 Who do you think holds more moral culpability the order 520 00:30:58,800 --> 00:31:02,000 Giver or the order follower in those situations? 521 00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:06,800 Yeah, it's it's a tough question. 522 00:31:06,800 --> 00:31:14,500 Because soldierly obedience is Justified tactically to keep 523 00:31:14,500 --> 00:31:18,100 everyone in the platoon alive. So, so people think actually 524 00:31:18,100 --> 00:31:22,100 that they have to follow orders because if not, they're going to 525 00:31:22,100 --> 00:31:25,000 endanger their buddies. The interesting case with drone 526 00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:27,800 operators though is that it's no longer the case that their lives 527 00:31:27,800 --> 00:31:30,100 are on the line. And so, in this case, I think 528 00:31:30,100 --> 00:31:33,500 that the moral responsibility is born by by the There, who, can, 529 00:31:33,500 --> 00:31:37,300 who's days in the job, because of lucrative, even though he 530 00:31:37,300 --> 00:31:40,000 believes in his heart of hearts, that what he's doing is wrong, 531 00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:45,700 it has become more of a case of corruption where people are 532 00:31:45,700 --> 00:31:48,300 agreeing to do this. In the way that hit, man will 533 00:31:48,300 --> 00:31:52,500 agree to kill someone. Provided that the amount of cash 534 00:31:52,500 --> 00:31:54,200 being offered him is large enough. 535 00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:58,400 So it's completely analogous because the Drone operators are 536 00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:02,800 not themselves risking their own lives, they're not soldiers. 537 00:32:02,900 --> 00:32:07,400 In the traditional sense because their acts of killing cannot be 538 00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:10,100 construed. As literal acts of self-defense, 539 00:32:10,900 --> 00:32:14,700 a combatant on the ground who's facing a deadly Enemy enemy, 540 00:32:14,700 --> 00:32:17,000 who's about to kill him, can regard what he's doing as a 541 00:32:17,008 --> 00:32:20,900 choice of kill or be killed during operator, cannot do that 542 00:32:20,900 --> 00:32:24,200 because it's false. If the Drone operator declines 543 00:32:24,200 --> 00:32:29,600 to push a button, He's not going to be harmed, he's in a trailer 544 00:32:29,600 --> 00:32:32,700 in Nevada or wherever he is. So so it's not a question of 545 00:32:32,700 --> 00:32:35,400 kill-or-be-killed. It's a question of should I do 546 00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:38,100 what these people are telling me to do even though it goes 547 00:32:38,100 --> 00:32:42,300 against my conscience. Yeah and it will be even the 548 00:32:42,300 --> 00:32:46,300 mafia isn't able to take people's income by 4. 549 00:32:46,300 --> 00:32:49,900 So they have more voluntary funding and the mafia generally 550 00:32:49,900 --> 00:32:52,200 have a rule that they don't go after family members. 551 00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:55,400 So I think this is like the worst thing in the world and I 552 00:32:55,408 --> 00:32:57,500 think You're doing a phenomenal job. 553 00:32:57,700 --> 00:33:00,500 Tackling this this vitally important issue. 554 00:33:00,900 --> 00:33:03,400 We've gone over the results of the war on terror. 555 00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:07,800 We've gone over the motives for originating it and just War 556 00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:10,200 Theory as well. We've talked about the effects. 557 00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:12,500 Are there any other bullet points that people need to know 558 00:33:12,700 --> 00:33:16,100 about the war on terror before it completely is memory? 559 00:33:16,100 --> 00:33:18,000 Hold, and we forget it ever happened. 560 00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:21,100 Well it cannot be memory. Hold. 561 00:33:21,100 --> 00:33:25,600 I mean it's it's been put on the back burner now by the media but 562 00:33:25,800 --> 00:33:29,400 Have to remember that the media has been completely co-opted by 563 00:33:29,500 --> 00:33:31,900 the military. It's a part of the sprawling 564 00:33:31,900 --> 00:33:34,500 military-industrial Congressional academic. 565 00:33:36,200 --> 00:33:40,100 Did I say media pharmaceutical banking with just because I have 566 00:33:40,100 --> 00:33:41,800 eight of them. It's an octopus Aid in my view 567 00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:46,100 now. So so in completely co-opted, so 568 00:33:46,100 --> 00:33:49,200 when you, when you turn the television on, you are facing 569 00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:54,100 propaganda at this point and it's largely driven by the, the 570 00:33:54,100 --> 00:33:57,300 military. So, Also Farm what we learned in 571 00:33:57,300 --> 00:34:00,100 the period of covid. So so we should. 572 00:34:00,100 --> 00:34:04,300 We cannot memory hole it and and people I wish we had a competent 573 00:34:04,300 --> 00:34:07,500 fourth estate to to call into question, when people like 574 00:34:07,500 --> 00:34:10,600 blinken, get on the stage and say, you can't just invade a 575 00:34:10,600 --> 00:34:15,699 country and, you know, as those other one turned ever happened, 576 00:34:15,699 --> 00:34:17,500 you know. So none of this happened and 577 00:34:17,500 --> 00:34:21,500 then on top of all that they're trying to memory hole literally 578 00:34:21,500 --> 00:34:24,600 Julian Assange and everything that Julian Assange revealed. 579 00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:27,900 I mean nothing. Nothing would memory hole the 580 00:34:27,900 --> 00:34:30,699 war on terror better than the annihilation of Julian Assange. 581 00:34:30,699 --> 00:34:33,000 And that seems to be what their goal is at this point. 582 00:34:33,600 --> 00:34:37,199 They've managed to suppress him to the point where he can't he 583 00:34:37,199 --> 00:34:42,000 can no longer reveal any of the sort of secrets that make it 584 00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:45,100 possible for you. Not United States citizens to 585 00:34:45,100 --> 00:34:48,000 know what their government is doing supposedly on their behalf 586 00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:51,800 and using their money. So a good example would be Nord 587 00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:54,000 stream. We don't know who sabotaged the 588 00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:57,600 Nord stream Pipelines. But if we had a whistleblower 589 00:34:57,600 --> 00:35:00,500 who came forward, who was a part of it and could provide 590 00:35:00,500 --> 00:35:03,700 documentation showing like look these people actually 591 00:35:03,700 --> 00:35:05,800 perpetrated this. If it was the United States, for 592 00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:09,500 example, then it was a declaration of war on Russia and 593 00:35:09,500 --> 00:35:12,100 without people like Julian Assange, we're never going to 594 00:35:12,100 --> 00:35:15,900 find out because anyone who dares to speak out is going to 595 00:35:15,900 --> 00:35:19,700 be thrown into federal prison. I mean some people might dare do 596 00:35:19,700 --> 00:35:22,600 it anyway but it's they also risk their own lives by doing 597 00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:28,500 that. And so So we need more people 598 00:35:28,500 --> 00:35:31,100 like Julian Assange and organizations like Wikileaks. 599 00:35:31,100 --> 00:35:33,600 And we need to I think defend Julian Assange at this point. 600 00:35:33,600 --> 00:35:39,600 Because without that Surrogate for the fourth estate, which no 601 00:35:39,600 --> 00:35:41,700 longer exists. We no longer have an effective 602 00:35:41,700 --> 00:35:45,200 press, then we really are lost because we're going to be just 603 00:35:45,200 --> 00:35:49,800 in this tunnel of government produced disinformation and 604 00:35:49,800 --> 00:35:54,000 never know exactly what is going on, which is where we seem to be 605 00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:56,700 right now is it's quite frightening to be honest. 606 00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:01,700 When it comes to solutions to what something like this 607 00:36:01,900 --> 00:36:05,200 marriage, a reward. I really like her idea of what 608 00:36:05,200 --> 00:36:09,700 if you just started issuing these as court cases and you 609 00:36:09,700 --> 00:36:15,300 tried taking soldiers or generals or politicians to to 610 00:36:15,300 --> 00:36:18,300 court and trying to file a lawsuit as a way of bringing 611 00:36:18,300 --> 00:36:22,900 attention to it and maybe some heroic judge, for example, maybe 612 00:36:22,900 --> 00:36:28,100 Joe Biden conspiracy to commit murder in Kabul Aug 29, And one, 613 00:36:28,200 --> 00:36:31,300 I mean, something like that. I mean, I love that. 614 00:36:31,300 --> 00:36:33,800 We're getting this information out there and people are, you 615 00:36:33,800 --> 00:36:37,400 know, becoming more skeptical of the military industrial complex 616 00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:39,900 and the state and everything. But as far as like what do we 617 00:36:39,900 --> 00:36:44,000 have to do to get this nightmare to end their provoking a war 618 00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:47,300 with China over Taiwan there provoking one with watch. 619 00:36:47,300 --> 00:36:51,000 Look like if inciting a riot, I'm against inciting riots, 620 00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:53,800 that's bad. These people are inciting 621 00:36:54,000 --> 00:36:58,400 nuclear mass murder. And they like, Like they get 622 00:36:58,400 --> 00:37:00,900 applauded by the Council on Foreign Relations for it. 623 00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:03,200 So as far as sizing it where do we go? 624 00:37:04,100 --> 00:37:10,900 Okay, so my ladies are called The Institute is in a nutshell 625 00:37:11,400 --> 00:37:14,200 to save the Republic abolish. The black budget. 626 00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:20,000 So basically the black budget is being used to perpetrate crimes 627 00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:22,400 which actually harm the Republic. 628 00:37:22,400 --> 00:37:24,300 Okay. So if we are risking nuclear 629 00:37:24,300 --> 00:37:27,500 war, let's say for the sake of argument that Nord stream was 630 00:37:27,700 --> 00:37:30,800 U.s. sabotage. If that was done using taxpayer 631 00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:34,500 money, is that taxpayers money? Then we are being sabotaged by 632 00:37:34,500 --> 00:37:36,800 the existence of the black budget because these things can 633 00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:39,300 be carried out without our permission, without our 634 00:37:39,300 --> 00:37:42,200 knowledge, without any accountability, and they can 635 00:37:42,200 --> 00:37:45,200 actually lead in this case to nuclear Holocaust. 636 00:37:45,400 --> 00:37:48,700 So something's got to be done to rain these people in because 637 00:37:48,700 --> 00:37:52,500 they obviously are completely unhinged, it's a complete, you 638 00:37:52,500 --> 00:37:56,000 know, Loose Cannon at this point, the fact that were 639 00:37:56,800 --> 00:38:00,300 fomenting War on multiple fronts, okay, not only with 640 00:38:00,300 --> 00:38:05,100 Russia in Ukraine, but also between China and Taiwan. 641 00:38:05,100 --> 00:38:08,500 And also with Iran's simultaneously, it's in it's a 642 00:38:08,508 --> 00:38:11,900 complete train wreck in terms of diplomacy, we no longer have 643 00:38:11,900 --> 00:38:16,000 diplomats what we have, our war mongers masquerading as 644 00:38:16,000 --> 00:38:18,000 diplomats, they refuse to negotiate. 645 00:38:18,000 --> 00:38:20,200 Well, when you refused to negotiate, what you're doing 646 00:38:20,700 --> 00:38:23,300 getting back to the just War theory, is you're saying O War 647 00:38:23,300 --> 00:38:26,100 as a last resort? We can't negotiate, so we have 648 00:38:26,100 --> 00:38:30,700 to go to war and It's a fallacy, it's completely false. 649 00:38:30,700 --> 00:38:33,800 It were not able to negotiate because you don't want to 650 00:38:33,800 --> 00:38:37,800 negotiate. We're now why they want to do 651 00:38:37,800 --> 00:38:40,000 this, you know, this is up to interpretation. 652 00:38:40,000 --> 00:38:42,900 Some people think it's just a matter of profiteering. 653 00:38:42,900 --> 00:38:47,700 Okay, we want to keep doing the wealth transfer from citizens to 654 00:38:47,700 --> 00:38:49,900 the micu. So all these weapons that are 655 00:38:49,900 --> 00:38:53,200 going to to Ukraine. In fact, you know, that's a lot 656 00:38:53,200 --> 00:38:56,200 of profit for the for-profit military industry and if they 657 00:38:56,200 --> 00:38:58,800 want to stretch it out as long as They can problem in this case 658 00:38:58,800 --> 00:39:02,300 is there actually risking the annihilation of Civilization by 659 00:39:02,300 --> 00:39:05,600 doing this because they keep goating Putin to the point where 660 00:39:05,600 --> 00:39:08,700 he met. Let's hope not but he made some 661 00:39:08,700 --> 00:39:11,000 point, just throw up his hands and say, whatever you know, 662 00:39:11,000 --> 00:39:14,000 let's do this, we don't know. But when you continually 663 00:39:15,400 --> 00:39:19,800 threatened him with regime change and even assassination, 664 00:39:20,100 --> 00:39:23,700 then you have removed. All of the constraints in place 665 00:39:24,300 --> 00:39:27,200 for Maad mutually assured destruction. 666 00:39:27,200 --> 00:39:30,000 Which You know, supposedly is what prevented nuclear war 667 00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:34,600 throughout the Cold War. Because each side knew that if 668 00:39:34,600 --> 00:39:38,200 they if they initiated the war then they would also be 669 00:39:38,200 --> 00:39:40,100 destroyed. Well, if Putin already thinks 670 00:39:40,100 --> 00:39:43,100 he's going to be destroyed, then that whole framework falls apart 671 00:39:43,100 --> 00:39:46,500 and made you no longer works. So, to answer a question, the 672 00:39:46,500 --> 00:39:51,900 way to get out of this nightmare is to rein in these people who 673 00:39:51,900 --> 00:39:57,200 are committing crimes in secret their fomenting Coos inciting 674 00:39:57,200 --> 00:39:59,700 up. Risings committing, you know, 675 00:39:59,700 --> 00:40:06,200 flat-out crimes in the case of Nordstrom I believe and causing 676 00:40:06,200 --> 00:40:08,400 us all great danger rather than protecting us. 677 00:40:08,400 --> 00:40:12,200 They're actually degrading our our state of security. 678 00:40:12,200 --> 00:40:14,200 And in fact, causing a huge amount of misery. 679 00:40:14,200 --> 00:40:16,300 I mean, lots of people are really worried about this now 680 00:40:16,300 --> 00:40:19,700 because it just doesn't seem like there's anyone really in 681 00:40:19,700 --> 00:40:21,500 charge, anyone competent in charge. 682 00:40:21,500 --> 00:40:26,100 They have no idea what is going on, why this continues on and 683 00:40:27,200 --> 00:40:31,900 why A congress continues to allow the government to print 684 00:40:31,900 --> 00:40:35,500 money and ship it abroad, even as our own economy tanks. 685 00:40:35,500 --> 00:40:38,500 It's unbelievable, really. And it can only be explained by 686 00:40:38,500 --> 00:40:41,300 the fact that the media has been captured by the military. 687 00:40:41,600 --> 00:40:44,900 So, the media, you know, if you're watching television, you 688 00:40:44,900 --> 00:40:51,600 are getting a really distorted view of the world and my one, 689 00:40:51,600 --> 00:40:57,200 hope on the international front is that Countries in Europe are 690 00:40:57,200 --> 00:41:01,400 finally going to say, wait a minute, these like basket cases 691 00:41:01,400 --> 00:41:04,700 are actually endangering us. Not only are they preventing us 692 00:41:04,700 --> 00:41:06,100 from getting energy for this winter? 693 00:41:06,100 --> 00:41:10,300 They're actually provoking the possibility of a nuclear war and 694 00:41:10,400 --> 00:41:12,200 it's possible. I'm and I believe that the 695 00:41:12,200 --> 00:41:17,400 people of Germany, for example, are all on On the whole 696 00:41:17,400 --> 00:41:21,200 irrational lat and at some point they're going to say, you know, 697 00:41:21,200 --> 00:41:24,700 align ourselves with his, this Loose Cannon is not helping us 698 00:41:24,700 --> 00:41:27,300 anymore. And so we may see new alliances 699 00:41:27,300 --> 00:41:32,900 forming in the region as the people stand up and say no, we 700 00:41:32,900 --> 00:41:38,000 won't allow our government continue to support initiatives, 701 00:41:38,000 --> 00:41:41,500 which are clearly against our own best interests. 702 00:41:42,700 --> 00:41:47,000 The book is we kill because we can from soldiering to nation in 703 00:41:47,200 --> 00:41:49,200 the Drone age. Thanks to everyone for watching 704 00:41:49,200 --> 00:41:51,800 the libertarian Institute, Miss Calhoun. 705 00:41:51,800 --> 00:41:54,000 Thank you so much for your time. Thanks for having me.