1 00:00:00,100 --> 00:00:06,100 Me too. The worst thing that can happen 2 00:00:06,100 --> 00:00:09,800 to a socialist is to have his country ruled by socialists who 3 00:00:09,800 --> 00:00:12,000 are not his friends. Welcome to Keith's night. 4 00:00:12,000 --> 00:00:15,100 Don't tread on anyone today. We have Gary chartier. 5 00:00:15,300 --> 00:00:18,900 He is the author of Anarchy and legal order along with economic 6 00:00:18,900 --> 00:00:22,200 Justice and natural law. He is a consultant speaker coach 7 00:00:22,200 --> 00:00:25,000 writer philosopher and teacher check him out. 8 00:00:25,000 --> 00:00:27,200 His website is in the description. 9 00:00:27,300 --> 00:00:28,900 Mr. Chartier. Thank you for your time, 10 00:00:29,600 --> 00:00:33,600 pleasure to be here. What do you mean when you say we 11 00:00:33,600 --> 00:00:39,800 support markets? Well, I guess it depends on who 12 00:00:39,800 --> 00:00:45,100 we is but when I say I support markets, I mean that open 13 00:00:45,100 --> 00:00:55,600 exchange is both predicated on people's freedom to dispose of 14 00:00:55,600 --> 00:00:58,200 their labor and their insights and their property. 15 00:00:58,500 --> 00:01:02,800 And that open exchange is widely generally beneficial. 16 00:01:04,200 --> 00:01:07,200 I should have said to you. I was looking at your quote from 17 00:01:07,400 --> 00:01:12,100 Center for a stateless society. So something like markets, you 18 00:01:12,100 --> 00:01:14,800 could think of slave markets. You could think of human 19 00:01:14,800 --> 00:01:19,600 trafficking today, are those part of this philosophy. 20 00:01:19,600 --> 00:01:21,500 Is that a shortcoming of philosophy? 21 00:01:22,300 --> 00:01:30,800 So on my view a credible Market order depends on underlying 22 00:01:30,800 --> 00:01:33,100 rights, right? It's not to talk about. 23 00:01:33,200 --> 00:01:36,300 Out the value of markets is not to say that anything and 24 00:01:36,300 --> 00:01:41,900 everything is in principle subject to third-party 25 00:01:41,900 --> 00:01:45,700 exchanges. And so, since I think that 26 00:01:46,000 --> 00:01:51,100 people have a right, not to be subjected to physical force them 27 00:01:51,100 --> 00:01:56,000 to have their bodies controlled or injured forcibly and not to 28 00:01:56,300 --> 00:02:00,500 have their justly acquired possessions misappropriated, 29 00:02:00,500 --> 00:02:03,100 then that obviously gets in the way. 30 00:02:03,500 --> 00:02:07,400 Certainly of slave markets, and things like that. 31 00:02:07,400 --> 00:02:11,800 So I'm absolutely not saying anything and everything should 32 00:02:11,800 --> 00:02:14,500 be exchanged and don't think slave contracts are enforceable. 33 00:02:14,500 --> 00:02:17,200 I certainly don't think involuntary enslavement is ever. 34 00:02:17,200 --> 00:02:20,600 Okay. So yeah, my my support for 35 00:02:20,600 --> 00:02:24,600 markets is not a support for not a support for enslavement. 36 00:02:25,300 --> 00:02:31,700 What is a freed Market? The reason a lot of us, thanks 37 00:02:31,700 --> 00:02:33,200 to the great William. Gillis. 38 00:02:33,200 --> 00:02:39,200 Use the Expression freed Market is to emphasize that very often 39 00:02:39,200 --> 00:02:42,000 in contemporary political discourse. 40 00:02:42,500 --> 00:02:46,400 We find people throwing around the language of the free market 41 00:02:46,400 --> 00:02:51,300 and seeming to mean by that not very free at all Market. 42 00:02:51,300 --> 00:02:55,000 Very much. The market that we often have 43 00:02:55,000 --> 00:02:59,300 today in markets that are rigged markets that are Hamstrung 44 00:02:59,300 --> 00:03:02,500 markets that are riddled with privilege of various kinds. 45 00:03:02,800 --> 00:03:07,900 And so we talked about the freed Market that is the liberated 46 00:03:07,900 --> 00:03:11,400 Market to emphasize the difference between the kind of 47 00:03:11,400 --> 00:03:15,100 Freedom. We favor and the illusory 48 00:03:15,100 --> 00:03:20,000 Freedom that is sometimes affirmed of existing markets by 49 00:03:20,700 --> 00:03:23,600 those perhaps a bit more invested in the status quo. 50 00:03:24,400 --> 00:03:28,100 Now, let's say I have a worldview where I want to make 51 00:03:28,100 --> 00:03:31,400 sure people in powerful positions are held accountable. 52 00:03:31,500 --> 00:03:38,300 Why should I support markets? Well, so people in positions of 53 00:03:38,300 --> 00:03:44,400 power because they're in positions of Power, are hard to 54 00:03:44,400 --> 00:03:46,700 hold accountable. Let's let's begin with that with 55 00:03:46,700 --> 00:03:51,700 that recognition. Even when we have glorious words 56 00:03:51,700 --> 00:03:57,900 written down on paper that tell us that people in power, are 57 00:03:57,900 --> 00:04:02,400 accountable either because they're accountable to voters or 58 00:04:02,400 --> 00:04:04,400 they're accountable to Congressional investigators. 59 00:04:04,500 --> 00:04:08,200 Vestigators or they're accountable to journalists. 60 00:04:08,500 --> 00:04:11,300 The reality. Is that once you have power, it 61 00:04:11,300 --> 00:04:15,200 becomes increasingly and unsurprisingly easy for you to 62 00:04:15,200 --> 00:04:20,399 insulate yourself against power, against against inquiry, against 63 00:04:20,399 --> 00:04:22,200 assessment against accountability. 64 00:04:23,300 --> 00:04:31,400 And so It seems to me that. Not to put too fine, a point on 65 00:04:31,400 --> 00:04:33,700 it. The best way to insulate people 66 00:04:34,000 --> 00:04:36,900 against abuses of power. The best way to protect against 67 00:04:36,900 --> 00:04:41,200 abuses of power, is to reduce the amount of power that that 68 00:04:41,200 --> 00:04:45,400 anybody has a my power here. I don't mean influence or 69 00:04:45,400 --> 00:04:49,200 something, vague like that. I mean, the ability to deploy 70 00:04:50,000 --> 00:04:52,400 physical force on a systematic basis. 71 00:04:52,600 --> 00:05:00,800 And so by reducing the amount of free play for Forcible exercise 72 00:05:00,800 --> 00:05:05,000 of power and by increasing opportunities for consensual 73 00:05:06,000 --> 00:05:08,900 exchange, consensual interaction. 74 00:05:08,900 --> 00:05:11,500 And that's really as Charles Johnson suggest in the broad 75 00:05:11,500 --> 00:05:13,500 sense. What the market is the space of 76 00:05:13,500 --> 00:05:16,800 voluntary consensual interaction, then I think we 77 00:05:16,800 --> 00:05:20,800 reduce the opportunity for people with power to act badly. 78 00:05:21,000 --> 00:05:24,600 Now that doesn't mean that if you've got a structure in which 79 00:05:24,600 --> 00:05:28,700 people have power, there's no way to to try to hold them 80 00:05:28,700 --> 00:05:30,500 accountable. Well, but I think we should 81 00:05:30,500 --> 00:05:33,500 begin with the recognition. That it's very easy. 82 00:05:33,500 --> 00:05:36,900 Once you have power to insulate yourself against attempts to 83 00:05:36,900 --> 00:05:39,600 hold you accountable. So the reducing the reach of 84 00:05:39,600 --> 00:05:43,100 power seems like the first step toward actually ensuring, you 85 00:05:43,100 --> 00:05:46,800 don't have to worry about holding abusive powerful people 86 00:05:46,800 --> 00:05:50,400 account. Now, I look at the marketplace 87 00:05:50,400 --> 00:05:55,200 and even a free market. I wouldn't really see them 88 00:05:55,200 --> 00:05:58,200 catering to me necessarily. Whereas if I have a government, 89 00:05:58,200 --> 00:06:02,100 I constantly have politicians trying to please me trying to 90 00:06:02,100 --> 00:06:05,100 win over my vote. Does the existence of a state 91 00:06:05,100 --> 00:06:10,600 allow me as a citizen to actually engage in society and 92 00:06:10,600 --> 00:06:14,200 really be valued and have dignity or as the marketplace is 93 00:06:14,200 --> 00:06:17,900 more of a dog-eat-dog place of if I want to live with dignity. 94 00:06:18,000 --> 00:06:23,200 And be influential in my Society should I embrace markets or a 95 00:06:23,200 --> 00:06:28,000 government? Well, so it seems to me that on 96 00:06:28,000 --> 00:06:34,000 the face divot we can see, you know, both kinds of Alternatives 97 00:06:34,000 --> 00:06:36,400 in principle and play in different different political 98 00:06:36,400 --> 00:06:41,800 and economic environments, culture matters and culture, 99 00:06:41,800 --> 00:06:46,200 obviously needs to include a recognition on basic moral 100 00:06:46,200 --> 00:06:50,200 grounds of Buddy's dignity allowing for that. 101 00:06:50,200 --> 00:06:52,800 However, allowing for the fact that sometimes people are 102 00:06:52,800 --> 00:06:56,900 treated badly by markets and sometimes they treated well by 103 00:06:57,100 --> 00:06:59,500 government officials. Nonetheless. 104 00:06:59,700 --> 00:07:06,600 It seems to me that one reason you might at any rate, favor 105 00:07:06,600 --> 00:07:11,100 markets over governments, is that as a general matter? 106 00:07:11,300 --> 00:07:17,700 There are more options on offer in an Open Marketplace and your 107 00:07:18,100 --> 00:07:21,700 Need to say no is presupposed. Again, we're talking about the 108 00:07:21,707 --> 00:07:24,500 kind of Market that features rights of the sort. 109 00:07:24,500 --> 00:07:29,300 I've noted earlier and so as a result since you can say no 110 00:07:31,900 --> 00:07:37,500 people have in general, a an incentive to to treat you well, 111 00:07:37,600 --> 00:07:40,300 and I mean we often think perhaps that's a in retail 112 00:07:40,300 --> 00:07:43,000 environments. We're treated fairly 113 00:07:43,000 --> 00:07:49,700 dismissively, but the reality is We nonetheless deal with a 114 00:07:49,700 --> 00:07:52,900 culture in which people don't and generally they don't in 115 00:07:52,900 --> 00:07:56,000 general laugh at the idea that the customer is always right, 116 00:07:56,200 --> 00:08:03,800 you know, we note that in some other societies in which you 117 00:08:03,800 --> 00:08:10,600 know, it's very easy for people to retain employment. 118 00:08:10,800 --> 00:08:15,000 Even when they behave quite badly, retail service can be 119 00:08:15,000 --> 00:08:20,700 very very Submissive and the customer is definitely not 120 00:08:20,700 --> 00:08:25,200 treated as right are things. Perfect in our society. 121 00:08:25,200 --> 00:08:28,500 The answer is, of course not. There are real problems. 122 00:08:28,500 --> 00:08:30,300 There are some of them cultural some of them legal and 123 00:08:30,300 --> 00:08:36,200 structural, but the level of flexibility and the degree to 124 00:08:36,200 --> 00:08:41,100 which we enjoy, the most basic garringer of dignity, namely the 125 00:08:41,100 --> 00:08:44,700 right to say no, really? I think gives us opportunities 126 00:08:44,800 --> 00:08:48,200 that interacting with the government doesn't and If you 127 00:08:48,200 --> 00:08:51,600 want to be reminded of that wait in line at the DMV, you know, 128 00:08:51,600 --> 00:08:56,100 you're not you're not there to get a service that you request 129 00:08:56,500 --> 00:08:59,900 your there to be, you know, put through the wringer by people 130 00:09:00,500 --> 00:09:04,000 implementing the rules that you had nothing to do with with 131 00:09:04,000 --> 00:09:07,100 creating, and they're going to be imposed on, you mean, 132 00:09:07,100 --> 00:09:09,800 obviously, the people, you deal with in government settings, can 133 00:09:09,800 --> 00:09:12,800 sometimes be nice and agreeable. People. 134 00:09:12,800 --> 00:09:15,100 I'm not trying to suggest that we're talking about a bunch of 135 00:09:15,108 --> 00:09:19,400 moral monsters, but I think the institutional Don't lead 136 00:09:19,900 --> 00:09:23,300 government agencies and certainly government officials 137 00:09:23,300 --> 00:09:29,400 with considerable power to be all that interested in your in 138 00:09:29,400 --> 00:09:32,400 your well-being or your preferences. 139 00:09:32,700 --> 00:09:35,200 You know, you talked about government officials courting 140 00:09:35,200 --> 00:09:40,400 you and undoubtedly, they Court you, as you know, the member of 141 00:09:40,400 --> 00:09:46,500 a big pool of Voters or you know, taxpayers or whoever but 142 00:09:46,500 --> 00:09:50,000 they certainly don't. Have much reason to be terribly 143 00:09:50,000 --> 00:09:55,500 interested in you as an individual because in fact you 144 00:09:55,500 --> 00:10:01,300 have no real option to say no and I think by contrast in a 145 00:10:01,308 --> 00:10:06,100 Marketplace, your ability to say no is preserved. 146 00:10:06,100 --> 00:10:09,200 And I think that matters a great deal for how you're treated. 147 00:10:09,200 --> 00:10:14,300 After the options you can front. I look at history and see women 148 00:10:14,300 --> 00:10:18,400 and minorities as being oppressed and the state as the 149 00:10:18,400 --> 00:10:22,700 correcting mechanism. For solving said oppression. 150 00:10:22,900 --> 00:10:25,900 Why should I embrace the ideas of Center for a stateless 151 00:10:25,900 --> 00:10:30,100 society? If my primary focus is to uplift 152 00:10:30,100 --> 00:10:35,800 the downtrodden. So I think it's certainly right 153 00:10:35,800 --> 00:10:39,800 that we can look at history and we can see a great deal of 154 00:10:40,000 --> 00:10:45,400 exclusion and Nation sometimes maintained actively through 155 00:10:45,400 --> 00:10:51,900 violence and sometimes maintained through a variety of 156 00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:56,600 societal pressures. What's clear is that? 157 00:10:58,300 --> 00:11:05,900 Governments are not populated by people who are forwards, first 158 00:11:05,900 --> 00:11:11,900 and foremost ascending to positions of power, in order to 159 00:11:12,700 --> 00:11:14,600 in order to make the world a better place. 160 00:11:15,900 --> 00:11:20,200 I think that's pretty straightforwardly because the 161 00:11:20,200 --> 00:11:23,700 one thing we know about people with power is that they're 162 00:11:23,700 --> 00:11:29,400 people who are interested in and adept, Acquiring and maintaining 163 00:11:29,400 --> 00:11:31,400 power. Otherwise, they wouldn't be in 164 00:11:31,400 --> 00:11:35,000 positions of power. And that means as a general 165 00:11:35,000 --> 00:11:41,600 rule, that such people are likely to be less principled, 166 00:11:41,700 --> 00:11:45,300 more ambitious than the average, or they wouldn't be where they 167 00:11:45,300 --> 00:11:48,300 are, and they're likely to be susceptible to pressures to act 168 00:11:48,300 --> 00:11:53,400 badly in a variety of ways. So I'm not just saying that they 169 00:11:53,400 --> 00:11:55,200 have more power than the rest of us. 170 00:11:55,200 --> 00:12:00,400 And so, you know, like the the rest of us, they sometimes 171 00:12:00,400 --> 00:12:02,700 pursue their own objectives at the interests of others. 172 00:12:02,700 --> 00:12:06,700 That's certainly true. But I'm also saying they're not 173 00:12:07,700 --> 00:12:11,000 as likely to be as principled as the rest of us. 174 00:12:11,000 --> 00:12:13,000 There's a kind of self selection process involved. 175 00:12:13,300 --> 00:12:18,900 So I begin with the assumption that we don't have good reason 176 00:12:18,900 --> 00:12:24,200 to expect that good things will happen as a general matter for 177 00:12:24,200 --> 00:12:27,300 people without power people who have been excluded and 178 00:12:27,300 --> 00:12:30,300 subordinate. Good things aren't likely to 179 00:12:30,300 --> 00:12:33,600 happen just because of the Goodwill of people who have 180 00:12:33,600 --> 00:12:36,400 power, people who have power can be expected. 181 00:12:36,400 --> 00:12:40,900 Instead really, to pay attention to the concerns of the 182 00:12:41,400 --> 00:12:44,700 marginalized in one way or another only to the extent that 183 00:12:44,700 --> 00:12:47,600 they see some political Advantage for this. 184 00:12:49,300 --> 00:12:57,100 So I don't think first of all that appeals to the good 185 00:12:57,100 --> 00:12:59,400 intentions. Of people with power, are likely 186 00:12:59,400 --> 00:13:01,400 to get us very far people with power. 187 00:13:01,700 --> 00:13:05,500 I think can be expected to behave well to behave. 188 00:13:05,500 --> 00:13:08,300 Let's say in ways that reflect opposition to exclusion, 189 00:13:08,300 --> 00:13:14,100 subordination. Largely, you know, when they're 190 00:13:14,100 --> 00:13:17,400 cultural shifts involved. When there are economic shifts 191 00:13:17,400 --> 00:13:21,900 involved, you know, we didn't, for instance, get legislation, 192 00:13:22,000 --> 00:13:26,100 addressing child, labor until the economy and culture had 193 00:13:26,100 --> 00:13:28,200 shifted enough. The child labor was on the out, 194 00:13:28,200 --> 00:13:35,300 anyway, I think that similarly if we think about the status of 195 00:13:37,100 --> 00:13:41,900 Ethnic and cultural minorities. And we think about the status of 196 00:13:41,900 --> 00:13:47,200 women and gays trans people what we should expect in. 197 00:13:47,200 --> 00:13:53,200 All of these cases is less than enthusiastic support from people 198 00:13:53,200 --> 00:13:56,700 with power. I don't think because there are 199 00:13:56,700 --> 00:13:59,600 cultural issues involved often and it's a word nation and 200 00:13:59,600 --> 00:14:03,900 exclusion that we can just assume that market exchange on 201 00:14:03,900 --> 00:14:09,400 its own will be To address every concern that someone in an 202 00:14:09,400 --> 00:14:12,800 excluded or subordinated, group might him and I think there's 203 00:14:12,800 --> 00:14:15,700 there remain certainly room for nonviolent. 204 00:14:16,000 --> 00:14:21,200 Peaceful persuasive activism on behalf of inclusion and 205 00:14:21,200 --> 00:14:23,900 empowerment. But I do think at the same time, 206 00:14:23,900 --> 00:14:30,800 it's worth noting that when people are motivated by 207 00:14:30,800 --> 00:14:38,000 irrational Prejudice when they are motivated, But bigotry, they 208 00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:43,600 pay attacks, right? That is to say they pay more in 209 00:14:43,600 --> 00:14:48,500 order to not do business with, not employ, not have as 210 00:14:48,500 --> 00:14:51,900 customers, not have a suppliers people in groups. 211 00:14:51,900 --> 00:14:55,400 They disfavor when they disfavor those groups on the basis of 212 00:14:55,400 --> 00:14:59,100 bigotry. And so there is, I think a 213 00:14:59,100 --> 00:15:05,900 built-in tendency for markets to push back against bad choices. 214 00:15:06,200 --> 00:15:13,400 On the part of, you know, social institutions and of business 215 00:15:13,400 --> 00:15:16,200 people and so forth again, not perfectly. 216 00:15:16,300 --> 00:15:20,300 I think they're absolutely is remains room for activism here. 217 00:15:20,300 --> 00:15:23,700 Because in one way or another, there may be sources of 218 00:15:23,700 --> 00:15:29,000 insulation against the expression of bigotry and 219 00:15:29,000 --> 00:15:33,400 Prejudice, but I think we should see markets as counting quite 220 00:15:33,400 --> 00:15:39,200 strongly against the long term. Viability of bigotry. 221 00:15:39,600 --> 00:15:44,400 I know for instance that lets say in South Africa clear 222 00:15:44,400 --> 00:15:48,700 example in the 20th century of institutionalized subordination 223 00:15:48,700 --> 00:15:55,100 and exclusion that it wasn't the case that we had private 224 00:15:55,100 --> 00:16:01,200 businesses independently and freely maintaining consistent 225 00:16:01,200 --> 00:16:05,800 policies of apartheid rather. Those had to be maintained by 226 00:16:05,800 --> 00:16:07,700 law. Precisely because they weren't 227 00:16:07,700 --> 00:16:12,800 in the interests of businesses to to enforce and so here's the 228 00:16:12,800 --> 00:16:15,500 other thing. We know that politicians not 229 00:16:15,500 --> 00:16:21,500 only aren't always prepared to act in support of the excluded 230 00:16:21,500 --> 00:16:25,800 and the marginalized but also that they will very frequently 231 00:16:25,800 --> 00:16:29,400 use power actively to enforce the bigotry of those. 232 00:16:29,400 --> 00:16:31,800 They take to be effective supporters. 233 00:16:32,200 --> 00:16:38,700 So I don't think there's a kind of magic Response that shows 234 00:16:38,700 --> 00:16:42,900 that consensual institutions will perfectly address all 235 00:16:42,900 --> 00:16:46,100 problems, but I think we should be very skeptical about appeals 236 00:16:46,200 --> 00:16:49,700 to the good nature of states and we should certainly recognize 237 00:16:49,700 --> 00:16:52,800 the corrosive effect. The markets can exert on 238 00:16:52,800 --> 00:16:55,500 structures of privilege and exclusion. 239 00:16:56,300 --> 00:16:59,800 Now, do you see the state as sort of like a neutral tool that 240 00:16:59,800 --> 00:17:01,500 you could sometimes use for good? 241 00:17:01,600 --> 00:17:04,200 Sometimes for bad? Sometimes it's efficient or do 242 00:17:04,200 --> 00:17:07,200 you say that the state is a you Meek Institution. 243 00:17:08,599 --> 00:17:15,099 So I think that in the nature of the case, a state is distinctive 244 00:17:15,099 --> 00:17:18,800 its distinctive because it's a monopolist. 245 00:17:19,300 --> 00:17:23,099 If we're going to use roughly, Max Weber says, definition, the 246 00:17:23,099 --> 00:17:29,000 state claims to exercise and at least reasonably successfully 247 00:17:29,000 --> 00:17:35,000 does exercise a monopoly over. Let's say something like 248 00:17:35,000 --> 00:17:38,800 systemic Force. Okay, so the point is Not that 249 00:17:38,800 --> 00:17:44,100 whenever anybody exercises Force, the state is, they're 250 00:17:44,300 --> 00:17:47,200 reviewing and approving that or that the state is the only 251 00:17:47,200 --> 00:17:49,000 entity that ever does exercise Force. 252 00:17:49,000 --> 00:17:54,100 But it claims the right to determine when individual acts 253 00:17:54,100 --> 00:17:58,400 of force are, okay, and it in turn exercises forced 254 00:17:58,400 --> 00:18:01,400 systemically throughout the throughout the society. 255 00:18:01,700 --> 00:18:06,900 So that's distinctive, that's, you know, nobody else does that. 256 00:18:06,900 --> 00:18:12,400 It's not like the mob Sofia which even in a society that's 257 00:18:12,400 --> 00:18:17,500 riddled by the mafia isn't sort of claiming public legitimacy. 258 00:18:17,500 --> 00:18:20,000 It's not claiming the right to do this, not calling the moral 259 00:18:20,000 --> 00:18:23,500 entitlement to do this. It just kind of does it and it's 260 00:18:23,500 --> 00:18:27,400 not, you know, like some other institutions. 261 00:18:27,400 --> 00:18:30,300 We might have, it's not like you defending your house from our 262 00:18:30,300 --> 00:18:33,700 from a robber, you know, with a crossbow or something. 263 00:18:34,100 --> 00:18:38,800 It's Society-wide and it's concerning violence in a 264 00:18:38,808 --> 00:18:41,600 systemic way. So there's really nothing else 265 00:18:41,600 --> 00:18:50,900 quite like a state and As a result, it's uniquely dangerous. 266 00:18:51,200 --> 00:18:55,000 Okay, it's uniquely dangerous. So just quantitatively and 267 00:18:55,300 --> 00:19:00,500 exercises Dominion. Oh, are far. 268 00:19:00,500 --> 00:19:05,800 Wider range of forcible acts than any other institution. 269 00:19:07,200 --> 00:19:11,000 It's also dangerous because it's a monopoly. 270 00:19:11,200 --> 00:19:16,300 And, you know, we all have good reason to be deeply skeptical 271 00:19:16,300 --> 00:19:19,000 about. Monopolies, they deny us options 272 00:19:19,000 --> 00:19:21,600 and therefore, present us with take it or leave it in. 273 00:19:21,600 --> 00:19:24,300 Sometimes, just take it possibilities. 274 00:19:24,600 --> 00:19:28,000 And that means that we can't by exercising Choice. 275 00:19:29,300 --> 00:19:33,300 Take other possibilities off the, you know, off the table, 276 00:19:34,200 --> 00:19:36,600 encourage others, to give us options. 277 00:19:36,900 --> 00:19:42,000 And so we have minimal options and we therefore have reduced 278 00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:47,400 services and high prices, you know, so we think About you 279 00:19:47,400 --> 00:19:50,800 know, what would happen if there were an awfully on shoes to use 280 00:19:50,800 --> 00:19:53,700 my friend driver, logs example, but think of an opulent anything 281 00:19:53,700 --> 00:19:56,800 else. So the state is a monopolist, 282 00:19:56,800 --> 00:20:02,000 then with respect to the use of force with respect to two legal 283 00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:06,400 rights and to ultimately go procedures. 284 00:20:06,400 --> 00:20:09,900 Now, obviously, we can pursue other legal procedures. 285 00:20:10,200 --> 00:20:14,200 Kind of, you know, as long as the state doesn't get involved 286 00:20:14,200 --> 00:20:18,700 in precluding them, we can Sue. A mediation and arbitration and 287 00:20:18,700 --> 00:20:22,800 so forth. But ultimately, you know, those 288 00:20:22,800 --> 00:20:26,400 are legally efficacious only because States enforce, the 289 00:20:26,400 --> 00:20:32,200 relevant contracts and so forth. So states are bad because of 290 00:20:32,200 --> 00:20:36,000 their reach because the the the extent to which they exercise 291 00:20:36,100 --> 00:20:41,300 violence. And because they are monopolists 292 00:20:41,300 --> 00:20:46,100 and exclude exclusive Alternatives and you know, so 293 00:20:46,100 --> 00:20:48,800 there Their Geographic monopolists, right? 294 00:20:48,800 --> 00:20:51,700 So whether you're talking about a small state, the size of that 295 00:20:51,700 --> 00:20:55,400 I can City or Monaco or a huge State, the size of Russia. 296 00:20:55,800 --> 00:21:00,800 The idea is that if you want Alternatives as regards legal 297 00:21:00,800 --> 00:21:05,800 institutions, legal rights, if you want to get away from the 298 00:21:05,800 --> 00:21:11,200 reach of State than what you have to do is leave the States 299 00:21:11,200 --> 00:21:14,900 Territory and that can be economically costly. 300 00:21:14,900 --> 00:21:18,900 It can be emotionally and Logically culturally costly in a 301 00:21:18,908 --> 00:21:23,400 variety of ways. So while there is ordinarily, 302 00:21:23,400 --> 00:21:27,500 unless you have a particularly vile State like, you know, 303 00:21:27,500 --> 00:21:31,500 saying the states of, you know, in the old Soviet Bloc that 304 00:21:31,500 --> 00:21:34,700 actively prevented anyone from leaving. 305 00:21:35,100 --> 00:21:38,100 I still find that today in most places like North Korea. 306 00:21:40,700 --> 00:21:44,000 You do have, if you're not that kind of state the freedom to 307 00:21:44,000 --> 00:21:47,300 exit but exit at a very A high cost. 308 00:21:47,300 --> 00:21:50,100 And of course, the cost gets greater the larger, the state 309 00:21:50,100 --> 00:21:52,100 than a, the farther away. You have to go. 310 00:21:52,100 --> 00:21:58,200 If you want to evade its its reach and so the monopolistic 311 00:21:58,200 --> 00:22:00,500 power of the state makes it dangerous. 312 00:22:01,500 --> 00:22:05,400 It also makes it a course, at the same time, attractive to 313 00:22:06,300 --> 00:22:11,100 people who again are interested in using power for their own 314 00:22:11,100 --> 00:22:12,800 benefit. There's a tremendous amount of 315 00:22:12,800 --> 00:22:19,500 power that's available and that Or can serve as a magnet for 316 00:22:19,500 --> 00:22:23,300 those who want to engage in Mischief, in various kinds. 317 00:22:23,300 --> 00:22:27,600 So, I don't think the state is neutral because it is a 318 00:22:27,600 --> 00:22:31,600 non-consensual monopolist that imposes. 319 00:22:31,600 --> 00:22:38,600 Its Authority on us, reduces our options and from which it's 320 00:22:38,600 --> 00:22:42,100 relatively difficult exit. We have real problems. 321 00:22:42,100 --> 00:22:45,600 Sometimes people juxtaposed rights of voice to, those of 322 00:22:45,600 --> 00:22:46,800 exit. And there's the The claim that 323 00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:50,700 somehow we are affirming our dignity when we exercise voice, 324 00:22:50,700 --> 00:22:54,000 but the fact is any, but the tiniest of States isn't going to 325 00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:57,000 be influenced by our exercises voice in the vast, majority of 326 00:22:57,000 --> 00:23:02,100 cases, what I say either, as a voter or as somebody commenting 327 00:23:02,100 --> 00:23:05,100 on public matters is going to have very very little effect on 328 00:23:05,100 --> 00:23:09,200 general policies. So, you know, I think the notion 329 00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:12,700 that the state is neutral and we can look to it to do good 330 00:23:12,700 --> 00:23:16,300 things. I suppose isn't just in here. 331 00:23:17,100 --> 00:23:19,800 Insane. In the sense that occasionally, 332 00:23:19,800 --> 00:23:22,500 you know, State, why do something good States, might do 333 00:23:22,500 --> 00:23:24,700 things that we might do ourselves under other 334 00:23:24,700 --> 00:23:27,300 circumstances, but the state is fundamentally. 335 00:23:27,300 --> 00:23:31,200 A clunky. Monopolistic violent, dangerous 336 00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:35,000 entity that attracts people who were up to up to missed you very 337 00:23:35,000 --> 00:23:39,200 frequently. I see such inequality in America 338 00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:41,300 today. We have billionaires and 339 00:23:41,300 --> 00:23:44,400 homeless people. This is the result of free 340 00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:47,800 markets Miss allocating resources instead of focusing on 341 00:23:47,900 --> 00:23:51,200 people and their needs. It's just about money and 342 00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:55,200 rewarding greed. Why should I support markets? 343 00:23:57,100 --> 00:24:04,200 Well, so it seems to me that we can definitely see tremendous 344 00:24:04,300 --> 00:24:09,300 economic vulnerability. Even in A very wealthy Society 345 00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:11,100 like ours. And so it's certainly 346 00:24:11,100 --> 00:24:16,900 understandable that people see the, the vulnerability of 347 00:24:16,900 --> 00:24:21,700 homeless, people and recent immigrants and others and can be 348 00:24:21,700 --> 00:24:25,100 deeply concerned deeply troubled by them. 349 00:24:25,100 --> 00:24:29,300 And I think very appropriately. So the notion however, that this 350 00:24:29,300 --> 00:24:33,600 is a result of the operation of markets doesn't seem to me to be 351 00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:38,000 right. I think that if We look and the 352 00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:42,800 drivers of structural poverty. We don't see markets as the 353 00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:45,100 culprit. So understand there are broadly 354 00:24:45,100 --> 00:24:49,900 speaking, we might think about about others but roughly 355 00:24:49,900 --> 00:24:50,900 speaking. I think we can say that two 356 00:24:50,900 --> 00:24:56,000 kinds of poverty their situational poverty, that 357 00:24:56,000 --> 00:25:00,800 results because you know, I lost a job or there's been a natural 358 00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:04,900 disaster or something like that, but the structural poverty 359 00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:09,200 that's persistent on. Going and reflection of if you 360 00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:14,300 will the rules of the game. So the rules of the game, I 361 00:25:14,300 --> 00:25:21,700 submit rules about everything from access to particular 362 00:25:21,700 --> 00:25:29,100 occupations to access to land things that affect the costs of 363 00:25:29,100 --> 00:25:33,300 living. These are not neutral features 364 00:25:33,300 --> 00:25:37,300 of the environment that are either created by By or 365 00:25:37,300 --> 00:25:40,900 sustained by markets. Instead. 366 00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:48,300 It's impossible not to see these as products of profound and 367 00:25:48,300 --> 00:25:53,700 dangerous political rigging of Market environments. 368 00:25:55,900 --> 00:25:58,800 The great Charles Johnson wrote a piece that I think has been 369 00:25:58,800 --> 00:26:03,500 very influential in many of us, some years ago called scratching 370 00:26:03,500 --> 00:26:08,500 by how government creates poverty as we No it and that's a 371 00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:11,000 for many people. Be a kind of offensive title. 372 00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:14,400 They'll push back at that that can't possibly be right, but I 373 00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:18,900 think Charles does a great job of highlighting important ways 374 00:26:18,900 --> 00:26:22,700 in which that's precisely the case that say occupational. 375 00:26:22,700 --> 00:26:28,700 Licensing rules limit people's access to occupations. 376 00:26:28,700 --> 00:26:32,300 That might make them money. Those rules also drive up the 377 00:26:32,300 --> 00:26:36,000 cost of services provided by others. 378 00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:40,100 I mean, just to take an obvious example, think about the costs 379 00:26:40,100 --> 00:26:41,600 of Healthcare in the United States. 380 00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:45,200 Think about how much might, how much care might be provided by 381 00:26:45,500 --> 00:26:49,300 Say by nurse practitioners that people instead have to obtain, 382 00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:53,300 either directly from licensed Physicians, or say from nurse 383 00:26:53,300 --> 00:26:57,300 practitioners who are operating Under the Umbrella of Physicians 384 00:26:57,300 --> 00:26:59,200 because of Occupational licensing rules. 385 00:26:59,500 --> 00:27:06,100 And so as a result, people who try to provide medical services 386 00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:09,300 with The roles of licenses could be subject to various kinds of 387 00:27:09,300 --> 00:27:11,300 legal liability. It's not an option for them. 388 00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:16,700 So whether I'm entering a an occupation, I'd like to enter an 389 00:27:16,700 --> 00:27:20,500 occupation and I can't do so because of the high cost of 390 00:27:20,500 --> 00:27:23,300 Entry or in like, to obtain services from someone. 391 00:27:23,400 --> 00:27:25,900 And I can only do that from someone who's going to charge 392 00:27:25,900 --> 00:27:28,300 quite a bit because of, again, I cost of Entry. 393 00:27:28,300 --> 00:27:32,700 That's a factor, we can think about the ways in, which access 394 00:27:32,700 --> 00:27:36,300 to land is limited by various used old. 395 00:27:36,500 --> 00:27:41,300 Al's zoning rules building codes and so forth. 396 00:27:42,500 --> 00:27:47,800 We can run through a range of economic factors like this. 397 00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:50,000 It's interesting. There's a, there's a recent book 398 00:27:50,500 --> 00:27:56,800 by co-authored by a Libertarian Brink Lindsey and a progressive 399 00:27:56,900 --> 00:28:01,500 telling us who agree about the ways in which a number of 400 00:28:01,500 --> 00:28:09,400 important factors from, you know, from Equals land, use 401 00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:15,900 controls to the Sega intellectual property rules 402 00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:22,100 above all wealth, to the well-connected and keep a lot of 403 00:28:22,100 --> 00:28:29,100 people economically vulnerable. So, I think certainly right to 404 00:28:29,100 --> 00:28:33,200 be concerned about the way in which the system creates 405 00:28:33,200 --> 00:28:38,000 vulnerability, but I would Vigorously, resist the notion 406 00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:41,600 that the way in which the system creates vulnerability is by 407 00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:44,100 allowing open market exchange instead. 408 00:28:44,100 --> 00:28:47,000 I think the system creates vulnerability precisely by 409 00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:50,900 rigging markets in favor of the privileged by m. 410 00:28:51,300 --> 00:28:52,500 And by the privilege here elderly. 411 00:28:52,500 --> 00:28:56,700 We mean, those who are given privileged precisely by the 412 00:28:57,000 --> 00:29:00,200 vine, the political class, even members of the class properties 413 00:29:00,700 --> 00:29:04,800 in ways that serve to concentrate wealth in the hands 414 00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:09,600 of the well-connected. and exclude others, so I think that 415 00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:15,200 markets are not the cause of poverty. 416 00:29:16,500 --> 00:29:26,300 There, better seem as precisely. The, the remedy for them. now, 417 00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:38,800 does the Which one Trilogy dear McCloskey and more recently in a 418 00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:41,600 more popular treatment of the issues Cooperative art, Cardin 419 00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:45,200 leave me alone. I'll make you rich highlights. 420 00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:51,400 What she famously has called the Great enrichment starting about 421 00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:54,700 1800. The idea is that poverty, has 422 00:29:54,700 --> 00:29:58,200 been over the years, the natural condition of humankind, and even 423 00:29:58,500 --> 00:30:03,200 the wealthiest People a few hundred years ago, enjoy, you 424 00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:06,700 know, very few of the things that, you know, quite ordinary 425 00:30:06,700 --> 00:30:10,300 people in our society, regarded as quite natural features of 426 00:30:10,308 --> 00:30:17,300 their lives. And whether McCloskey is right 427 00:30:17,300 --> 00:30:22,000 that the main shift, the since 1800 in allowing for the great 428 00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:27,900 enrichment has been the positive valuation of Entrepreneurship. 429 00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:30,700 Whether there have also been And as others have been inclined to 430 00:30:30,700 --> 00:30:35,500 claim structural institutional changes, provide a greater 431 00:30:35,500 --> 00:30:38,800 protection for instance, for for entrepreneurship and property 432 00:30:38,800 --> 00:30:40,700 rights. In any event. 433 00:30:40,700 --> 00:30:45,400 It's clear that pro-market changes in the past 200 years 434 00:30:45,400 --> 00:30:48,100 have made an enormous difference and they've been an enormous 435 00:30:48,100 --> 00:30:52,500 Difference by way of reducing poverty and offering greater 436 00:30:52,500 --> 00:30:57,700 empowerment. Do we need regulation in the 437 00:30:57,700 --> 00:31:02,100 marketplace by the state in order to keep us safe from those 438 00:31:02,100 --> 00:31:05,600 seeking to exploit, the vulnerable and take pernicious 439 00:31:05,600 --> 00:31:13,200 advantage of maybe people in vulnerable situations. so 440 00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:25,400 obviously, there are There are Bad actors in any environment in 441 00:31:25,400 --> 00:31:29,600 which we're likely to find ourselves and those Bad actors 442 00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:36,900 can sometimes be expected to engage in fraud and to seek to 443 00:31:36,908 --> 00:31:40,900 manipulate vulnerable people. And I certainly think we ought 444 00:31:40,900 --> 00:31:46,100 to be, we ought to be not naive about that and we I don't think 445 00:31:46,100 --> 00:31:49,300 that a defensive markets can ever should ever. 446 00:31:49,900 --> 00:31:53,700 Predicated on the assumption that somehow, you know, all 447 00:31:53,700 --> 00:31:57,300 Market actors are, are good people. 448 00:31:57,300 --> 00:32:00,900 And can always be expected to do the right thing on the other 449 00:32:00,900 --> 00:32:02,800 hand. However, I think it's clear that 450 00:32:02,800 --> 00:32:07,700 when there aren't various sorts of privileges, that insulate 451 00:32:08,100 --> 00:32:12,100 Market actors against Bad consequences for their actions, 452 00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:19,000 then even not particularly good. Actors, are likely to feel some 453 00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:21,700 incentives. To confront some incentives to 454 00:32:21,700 --> 00:32:27,400 behave. Well, and so, you know, first of 455 00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:31,900 all, of course, there can be incentives provided by by legal 456 00:32:31,900 --> 00:32:34,200 liability, right? If you're, if you're engaging in 457 00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:39,000 fraud and I can, I can sue you for them. 458 00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:42,100 That's obviously going to be something you're going to have 459 00:32:42,100 --> 00:32:46,800 to take into account. But even when there's not a 460 00:32:46,800 --> 00:32:53,600 legal liability in place, we Can note that just reputational 461 00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:56,500 harm? Can be enough to encourage 462 00:32:56,500 --> 00:33:00,100 somebody to behave more responsibly. 463 00:33:00,500 --> 00:33:05,800 And if I'm aware that well, perhaps What I've Done, wasn't 464 00:33:05,900 --> 00:33:07,400 the sort of thing that is Richard. 465 00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:11,900 Perhaps should be a trigger for legal liability, but that is 466 00:33:11,900 --> 00:33:17,800 really going to be seen as In one way or another manipulative, 467 00:33:18,200 --> 00:33:23,400 unfair, you know that that can certainly result in in 468 00:33:23,400 --> 00:33:26,700 reputational losses that will result as long as there's an 469 00:33:26,700 --> 00:33:30,000 open market in people's willingness to go elsewhere. 470 00:33:31,100 --> 00:33:33,000 On the other hand. I think it's worth emphasizing. 471 00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:38,000 That regulation is not some kind of been 92 land. 472 00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:39,800 I'd say there are at least two things. 473 00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:45,300 We should be concerned about the first is that Regulations 474 00:33:45,300 --> 00:33:49,400 characteristically are employed across the board. 475 00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:51,500 They're structured an across-the-board fashion. 476 00:33:51,700 --> 00:33:55,000 They affect everybody in very much the same way and it's very 477 00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:59,600 hard for them to take individual circumstances into account. 478 00:33:59,700 --> 00:34:04,400 And the information that people on the ground possess can tend 479 00:34:04,400 --> 00:34:10,600 to be ignored when regulations are framed and enforced. 480 00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:14,900 The other thing to recognize is that Regulations are going to be 481 00:34:14,900 --> 00:34:18,300 framed under the influence of the dominant players in a given 482 00:34:18,300 --> 00:34:22,800 industry and they're going to be enforced very frequently by 483 00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:27,100 regulatory bodies drawn from the dominant players and their in 484 00:34:27,100 --> 00:34:30,000 the relevant industry, right. I mean, it's, you know, so you 485 00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:32,800 might occasionally have regulatory body in the given 486 00:34:33,100 --> 00:34:37,900 Arena, you know that features, you know, somebody who's been a 487 00:34:37,900 --> 00:34:41,900 longtime consumer Advocate, but I think it's rather more likely 488 00:34:41,900 --> 00:34:47,000 to have somebody Who moves from being, you know, a member of 489 00:34:47,300 --> 00:34:50,100 certain regulatory body to being the vice president for 490 00:34:50,100 --> 00:34:53,000 government Affairs. In a given business in the 491 00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:54,800 regulated area and back and forth. 492 00:34:54,800 --> 00:34:57,400 The kind of revolving door in that regulatory space. 493 00:34:57,800 --> 00:35:06,100 So not only are markets, surprisingly good at protecting 494 00:35:06,100 --> 00:35:08,900 people against bad behavior. But on the other hand, 495 00:35:08,900 --> 00:35:13,100 regulations can both be clumsy and unresponsive. 496 00:35:13,300 --> 00:35:16,300 Lots of to situation particularities and they can be 497 00:35:16,300 --> 00:35:22,200 driven and enforced by people from the relevant Industries who 498 00:35:22,200 --> 00:35:25,500 want to use them to prop up their own positions and very 499 00:35:25,500 --> 00:35:28,200 frequently raised. The cost of doing business for 500 00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:33,200 competitors, who might, for instance, be able to deliver 501 00:35:33,200 --> 00:35:36,500 goods and services at lower prices regulations can be used 502 00:35:36,500 --> 00:35:40,200 to keep them from doing that. There are great examples of this 503 00:35:40,200 --> 00:35:43,800 sort of thing. In a number of books, one of 504 00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:48,700 them I'd certainly recommend is the great late Butler Shaffer 505 00:35:49,500 --> 00:35:53,800 about the Schafer's book in Restraint of trade, the business 506 00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:56,700 campaign against competition. And then there that's I think, 507 00:35:56,700 --> 00:35:58,700 nineteen eighteen to thirty eight or sixteen to thirty 508 00:35:58,700 --> 00:36:02,200 eight, something like that. And you know what Butler points 509 00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:08,100 out is the way in which The drive for greater regulation 510 00:36:08,100 --> 00:36:12,200 notably the mechanisms that were employed in the so-called first 511 00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:19,200 New Deal were mechanisms that were embraced by large. 512 00:36:19,200 --> 00:36:21,000 Well. Connected businesses. 513 00:36:21,500 --> 00:36:23,700 They weren't seen on the whole as bad. 514 00:36:23,700 --> 00:36:27,000 By those businesses rather. They were used to maintain kind 515 00:36:27,000 --> 00:36:31,600 of steady rate of profit for big businesses and to keep them from 516 00:36:31,600 --> 00:36:33,900 being attacked by upstart competitors. 517 00:36:34,200 --> 00:36:37,200 That might Cut into their profits by serving consumers, 518 00:36:37,200 --> 00:36:40,400 more efficiently. And so that's not. 519 00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:43,600 If I was the only story with respect to any regulation, but I 520 00:36:43,607 --> 00:36:45,600 think that's an aspect of the regulatory environment. 521 00:36:45,600 --> 00:36:49,900 That's often overlooked. Do we need a state to provide 522 00:36:49,900 --> 00:36:53,400 antitrust laws to protect us from monopolies? 523 00:36:57,300 --> 00:37:00,500 You know, so you can generally answer to that question is just 524 00:37:00,500 --> 00:37:03,700 no I think the state is a monopoly of course. 525 00:37:03,700 --> 00:37:06,800 And some of you know that I think I'd like to see him cross 526 00:37:06,800 --> 00:37:09,100 the laws applied primarily the state. 527 00:37:10,500 --> 00:37:19,800 But yeah, I think the the rise of antitrust legislation, you 528 00:37:19,800 --> 00:37:25,000 know, very often again, I think has been used to get in the way. 529 00:37:25,200 --> 00:37:30,500 Of benefits for consumers. Such legislation is sold as 530 00:37:31,700 --> 00:37:34,900 intended to benefit and Surrey. But you know, again in an 531 00:37:34,900 --> 00:37:40,300 environment in which, you know, there is the absence of barriers 532 00:37:40,300 --> 00:37:44,900 to entry, which people can start new firms, and try different 533 00:37:44,900 --> 00:37:49,900 ways of doing things, you know, a sort of de facto Monopoly 534 00:37:49,900 --> 00:37:54,100 that's exercised by, you know, a single player in a given Market 535 00:37:54,100 --> 00:37:57,200 is ordinarily going. Going to be impossible to 536 00:37:57,200 --> 00:38:00,400 maintain, you know, if you think about even, let's say an 537 00:38:00,400 --> 00:38:04,700 oligopoly with a group of firms, trying to maintain a cartel to 538 00:38:04,700 --> 00:38:09,000 keep prices High reality. Is it's going to be very 539 00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:16,000 tempting for a given member of that cartel to to defect right 540 00:38:16,000 --> 00:38:20,800 to at least under the table offer better prices than the 541 00:38:20,800 --> 00:38:27,500 cartel itself is offering. And and so Because of that in 542 00:38:27,500 --> 00:38:33,600 general to maintain a cartel to maintain through a small firms. 543 00:38:34,800 --> 00:38:38,500 What's needed is precisely regulation that excludes 544 00:38:38,500 --> 00:38:42,600 competitors or the requires competitors to go along with the 545 00:38:42,600 --> 00:38:46,300 cartel as long as I can compete with the cartel. 546 00:38:46,700 --> 00:38:54,300 If the cartel is charging a lot, then as long as it's You know, 547 00:38:55,100 --> 00:38:58,400 you know, it's gone a big profit margin that I can cut in two by 548 00:38:58,400 --> 00:39:01,600 entering the the relevant market, then I can certainly 549 00:39:01,600 --> 00:39:03,200 vary. I can certainly do so. 550 00:39:03,600 --> 00:39:07,700 And as a general matter are rational firm is going to be 551 00:39:07,700 --> 00:39:10,700 aware of this possibility. Even if there aren't other 552 00:39:10,700 --> 00:39:16,200 players in the market right now, the possibility of injury is 553 00:39:16,200 --> 00:39:22,400 going to be sufficient General spoon to discipline around 554 00:39:22,500 --> 00:39:26,900 National irrational player and so on the one hand, as I said, I 555 00:39:26,908 --> 00:39:30,000 think I think antitrust legislation very often been used 556 00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:35,300 to, in fact inhibit vigorous competition. 557 00:39:35,300 --> 00:39:37,500 That's actually beneficial to Consumers. 558 00:39:38,500 --> 00:39:43,700 You know, it's exercise the powers that Regulators have 559 00:39:43,700 --> 00:39:47,100 under under antitrust laws often exercised for the benefit of 560 00:39:47,100 --> 00:39:51,200 other Market players of other other firms that are playing in 561 00:39:51,207 --> 00:39:53,300 the market. Not For the benefit of 562 00:39:53,300 --> 00:39:55,400 consumers. And I think we can see by 563 00:39:55,400 --> 00:40:00,100 contrast that in a genuinely open market, maintaining 564 00:40:00,500 --> 00:40:05,400 monopolies is, is not something to be going to be easy indeed, 565 00:40:05,400 --> 00:40:06,600 again. We see that. 566 00:40:06,600 --> 00:40:13,400 When there are Monopoly of this, they are maintained precisely by 567 00:40:14,300 --> 00:40:17,200 by regulatory support for existing players. 568 00:40:17,500 --> 00:40:23,400 So, we think about traditionally older say, You know, 569 00:40:23,400 --> 00:40:25,400 anglo-american law. I'm an awfully. 570 00:40:26,100 --> 00:40:28,800 It was recognized was something that you enjoyed precisely, 571 00:40:28,800 --> 00:40:32,400 because you've got a special privileges, special Charter from 572 00:40:32,400 --> 00:40:36,200 the government, you know, then people started to kind of talk 573 00:40:36,400 --> 00:40:39,500 about the fact of the novel is by analogy. 574 00:40:40,000 --> 00:40:42,700 But the situation of that de facto Monopoly is 575 00:40:42,700 --> 00:40:47,000 characteristically very different in a situation where 576 00:40:47,000 --> 00:40:49,400 there's no forcible exclusion of Alternatives. 577 00:40:49,600 --> 00:40:54,100 And instead you're just Just talking about one or small 578 00:40:54,100 --> 00:40:56,500 number of current, participants of the given Market. 579 00:40:56,900 --> 00:40:59,800 It's important where that phenomena exist asked why it 580 00:40:59,800 --> 00:41:05,600 exists and whether indeed there is some regulatory barrier to 581 00:41:05,900 --> 00:41:09,300 entry. And if there's Not Again, One, 582 00:41:09,300 --> 00:41:15,200 my want to ask whether indeed, the possibility of competition 583 00:41:15,200 --> 00:41:20,100 is still disappointing performance even by a limited 584 00:41:20,100 --> 00:41:23,800 number of players in the market. You know again, this is an 585 00:41:23,800 --> 00:41:27,800 ongoing process is not to say that any one moment. 586 00:41:29,000 --> 00:41:30,800 You know, any Market is behavior. 587 00:41:30,800 --> 00:41:32,300 We perfect officials. That's it. 588 00:41:32,300 --> 00:41:36,400 That's a piece of fantasy. A market is an ongoing process 589 00:41:36,400 --> 00:41:40,700 of equilibration discovery. And so at any one point people 590 00:41:40,700 --> 00:41:44,000 may be making in one way or another ill-informed, bad 591 00:41:44,000 --> 00:41:47,200 decisions, but what markets do have is the ability to bring 592 00:41:47,200 --> 00:41:52,700 about ongoing equilibration, not perfect equilibrium, but but 593 00:41:52,700 --> 00:41:55,700 ongoing Discovery in the adjustment that has the 594 00:41:55,700 --> 00:41:58,900 potential certainly to be profoundly beneficial because 595 00:42:00,400 --> 00:42:04,600 What about the idea that in the marketplace, in order to live 596 00:42:04,600 --> 00:42:06,100 and survive? I have to work. 597 00:42:06,100 --> 00:42:08,900 I have to be laboring. I have to be constantly pleasing 598 00:42:08,900 --> 00:42:11,900 other people. But if I embrace a state, well, 599 00:42:11,900 --> 00:42:15,400 I could get a universal basic income and others can do the 600 00:42:15,400 --> 00:42:18,200 working for me. I mean, why should I have to 601 00:42:18,200 --> 00:42:28,200 work to live? well, so ultimately the idea I 602 00:42:28,200 --> 00:42:37,400 think behind markets is that I as you say, I make money by 603 00:42:37,400 --> 00:42:41,000 pleasing other people by serving. 604 00:42:42,000 --> 00:42:44,800 I'm rewarded. I'm rewarded for the 605 00:42:44,800 --> 00:42:47,100 effectiveness with which I serve other people. 606 00:42:47,500 --> 00:42:52,500 And so since those other people are all of us, right? 607 00:42:52,500 --> 00:42:58,900 We all depend on each other. Of we need a mechanism for 608 00:42:58,900 --> 00:43:02,500 securing cooperation. So it's not going to be the case 609 00:43:02,700 --> 00:43:05,000 that any society is going to function. 610 00:43:05,000 --> 00:43:10,800 Effectively. If most people expect than 611 00:43:10,800 --> 00:43:14,400 without serving others, without any kind of acceptance of 612 00:43:14,400 --> 00:43:19,900 reciprocal obligations and of responsiveness to others. 613 00:43:20,600 --> 00:43:25,300 They're going to be cared for. I think. 614 00:43:25,600 --> 00:43:30,700 It's a recipe, it seems to me for societal collapse. 615 00:43:31,000 --> 00:43:37,900 So obviously I think in decent Society will feature mechanisms 616 00:43:38,300 --> 00:43:47,000 for the provision of support to temporarily or persistently of 617 00:43:47,000 --> 00:43:48,100 vulnerable. People. 618 00:43:48,400 --> 00:43:52,000 That's another matter. But if the general mechanism of 619 00:43:52,000 --> 00:43:55,400 operation, the society method of operation of the society, 620 00:43:55,800 --> 00:43:59,500 Doesn't involve people cooperating with each other to 621 00:43:59,500 --> 00:44:05,300 provide goods and services than others want than then the 622 00:44:05,308 --> 00:44:08,500 society it seems to me runs into a real problem. 623 00:44:09,200 --> 00:44:13,700 We know that the division of labor in which people focus, on 624 00:44:13,700 --> 00:44:17,000 particular things, they develop expertise and they can use that 625 00:44:17,000 --> 00:44:22,400 expertise in a focused way that tends to yield widespread 626 00:44:22,400 --> 00:44:25,400 societal Prosperity, people can depend on each other. 627 00:44:25,600 --> 00:44:31,400 To participate in networks of extended social cooperation and 628 00:44:32,100 --> 00:44:36,900 can benefit from the from Demand on a Model instead in which 629 00:44:38,300 --> 00:44:42,800 everybody expects to be to be a ward of the state. 630 00:44:42,800 --> 00:44:46,900 I think that's a, that's a really, a really serious kind of 631 00:44:46,900 --> 00:44:51,800 problem because it means that people in general have given up 632 00:44:52,200 --> 00:44:55,500 on cooperating with each other from usual betterment. 633 00:44:55,700 --> 00:45:01,900 And instead have just expected that they will, they will depend 634 00:45:01,900 --> 00:45:04,100 on others and they won't affect exploit others. 635 00:45:04,300 --> 00:45:11,400 So yeah, I don't think we should you, you know, vulnerable people 636 00:45:11,400 --> 00:45:16,300 as inherently exploitative. If we have a society that 637 00:45:16,300 --> 00:45:20,500 eliminates those structural features that make and keep 638 00:45:20,500 --> 00:45:25,400 people poor, then we will dramatically reduce the risk. 639 00:45:25,600 --> 00:45:31,800 Ask of poverty but we recognize there is situational economic 640 00:45:31,800 --> 00:45:36,000 vulnerability again thinking about in case in which people 641 00:45:36,000 --> 00:45:40,900 are orphaned or case in which you know, the natural disasters 642 00:45:40,900 --> 00:45:44,700 before my eyes and I think it's very important to have 643 00:45:45,000 --> 00:45:51,900 mechanisms for Mutual Mutual Aid networks that provide people 644 00:45:51,900 --> 00:45:54,600 with support in case of that kind of ability. 645 00:45:54,600 --> 00:45:57,100 And I think Both for our own benefit. 646 00:45:57,100 --> 00:46:00,600 And as a matter of I think appropriate concern for others. 647 00:46:00,600 --> 00:46:04,600 We had good reason to participate in such networks, 648 00:46:05,300 --> 00:46:09,000 but that's very different from supposing that the right way of 649 00:46:09,000 --> 00:46:12,800 handle things is to have the state just provides or the 650 00:46:12,800 --> 00:46:19,800 uniform support for people as a general alternative to work, you 651 00:46:19,800 --> 00:46:24,500 know, so, of course there have been Libertarians and various 652 00:46:24,500 --> 00:46:27,500 sorts. One thinks of, you know, among 653 00:46:27,500 --> 00:46:31,900 the leading 20th century Libertarians, High Friedman, 654 00:46:32,900 --> 00:46:37,400 certainly contemplated the possibility of something like, 655 00:46:38,400 --> 00:46:42,600 you know, basic income schemes, but you know, because they 656 00:46:42,600 --> 00:46:44,900 weren't Anarchist on here talking and what's broadly, an 657 00:46:44,900 --> 00:46:49,800 anarchist mode, but you know, we can certainly understand why a 658 00:46:49,808 --> 00:46:52,000 Libertarian might think in those terms. 659 00:46:52,000 --> 00:46:54,200 And certainly I think of basic income scheme that you 660 00:46:54,200 --> 00:46:57,300 mentioned. Is vastly preferable to the sort 661 00:46:57,300 --> 00:47:03,200 of crazy quilt of, you know, complex Market distorting 662 00:47:04,200 --> 00:47:08,300 mechanisms for economic support that you know, existing state 663 00:47:08,300 --> 00:47:11,200 institutions provide, but I think it is important to 664 00:47:11,207 --> 00:47:15,600 recognize that where those kinds of basic income schemes are 665 00:47:15,600 --> 00:47:19,100 provided by states that, you know, in society, people on the 666 00:47:19,100 --> 00:47:20,600 scene, the wisdom of anarchism yet. 667 00:47:22,200 --> 00:47:26,100 You still can't have a culture and a set of economic A tutions 668 00:47:26,200 --> 00:47:30,400 that assume that a society can operate without its being the 669 00:47:30,400 --> 00:47:33,700 case that most people participate in networks of 670 00:47:33,700 --> 00:47:36,400 extended social cooperation, providing goods and services 671 00:47:36,400 --> 00:47:41,300 that other people want. I want everyone to have health 672 00:47:41,300 --> 00:47:43,300 care. Why should I embrace the ideas 673 00:47:43,500 --> 00:47:49,800 of markets? So, what we have, what we might 674 00:47:49,800 --> 00:47:56,800 want to say about Medical Care is I think deeply related to 675 00:47:57,200 --> 00:47:59,700 what we might want to say about poverty. 676 00:47:59,900 --> 00:48:04,600 Right? So very often concerns related 677 00:48:04,600 --> 00:48:07,200 to the accessibility of Medical Care. 678 00:48:08,100 --> 00:48:12,600 Are related to the high cost of such care and at the same time, 679 00:48:12,600 --> 00:48:16,200 the inability of people with limited resources to obtain 680 00:48:16,200 --> 00:48:20,500 access to. So I think that the first thing 681 00:48:20,500 --> 00:48:24,900 again, if you want to contemplate a market-based 682 00:48:25,000 --> 00:48:30,600 response to the concern that you articulated is to think hard 683 00:48:30,600 --> 00:48:35,600 about the need to eliminate those institutions and practices 684 00:48:35,900 --> 00:48:42,000 that make and keep Poor and as I've suggested the whole range 685 00:48:42,000 --> 00:48:47,300 of things that we might want to eliminate there that make it 686 00:48:47,700 --> 00:48:52,000 hard for people to earn income as they prefer. 687 00:48:52,200 --> 00:48:56,200 And then raise the cost of living when they do have income, 688 00:48:56,300 --> 00:49:02,100 make basic goods and services from you know, housing to food 689 00:49:02,300 --> 00:49:06,000 and so forth. Harder to contain the other 690 00:49:06,000 --> 00:49:07,700 thing. No here. 691 00:49:07,800 --> 00:49:11,900 That's especially important. Begin with is that medical care 692 00:49:11,900 --> 00:49:15,200 itself is rendered. Ridiculously inexpensive, 693 00:49:15,200 --> 00:49:17,700 ridiculously expensive in a variety of ways. 694 00:49:17,800 --> 00:49:21,800 And so, first of all, as I've suggested that, I've already 695 00:49:21,800 --> 00:49:30,300 suggested licensing requirements for for medical care providers. 696 00:49:30,300 --> 00:49:33,700 Various kinds obviously positions with many others as 697 00:49:33,700 --> 00:49:35,900 well. Those licensing requirements 698 00:49:35,900 --> 00:49:40,500 drive up costs. Adequate but think about other 699 00:49:40,500 --> 00:49:45,100 kinds of details as well. We can think about everything 700 00:49:45,100 --> 00:49:51,600 from medical device happens to drug patents to the FDA approval 701 00:49:51,600 --> 00:50:00,300 process for drugs to the licensing mechanisms that are 702 00:50:00,300 --> 00:50:04,400 employed to limit. The availability say of 703 00:50:04,400 --> 00:50:08,700 hospitals, Uncle certificates of need that have to be Pained that 704 00:50:08,700 --> 00:50:12,400 are basically designed to limit competition in the relevant 705 00:50:12,400 --> 00:50:17,700 area. And so There's a broad range of 706 00:50:17,800 --> 00:50:24,500 things that dramatically increase the cost of medical 707 00:50:24,500 --> 00:50:30,800 care to people, you know, say if we think about insurance as 708 00:50:30,800 --> 00:50:35,100 something that's that's needed, certainly for catastrophic care 709 00:50:36,100 --> 00:50:39,700 for, you know, Big Ticket items like, you know, cancer surgery. 710 00:50:40,800 --> 00:50:45,300 Then it then it certainly matters that insurance is Not 711 00:50:45,400 --> 00:50:49,300 always readily available. And then indeed, there are 712 00:50:49,600 --> 00:50:54,600 cartel lysing rules that prevent the sometimes the sale of 713 00:50:54,600 --> 00:50:59,800 insurance across state lines, things of that nature as well. 714 00:51:00,100 --> 00:51:05,200 And so, for all of these reasons, then it seems to me 715 00:51:05,700 --> 00:51:12,100 Medical Care is much more expensive than it needs to be 716 00:51:12,100 --> 00:51:16,100 and then we reasonably expect it to be Even as at the same time, 717 00:51:17,800 --> 00:51:22,800 people people in general are less well off than they. 718 00:51:23,100 --> 00:51:26,400 They certainly should be in a free market. 719 00:51:26,400 --> 00:51:29,300 And in particular, the most economically vulnerable are 720 00:51:30,000 --> 00:51:31,700 rendered much more vulnerable there. 721 00:51:31,700 --> 00:51:37,600 So I think we can close the gap there between the people's needs 722 00:51:37,600 --> 00:51:41,800 and what's available in a way that involves eliminating 723 00:51:43,200 --> 00:51:46,500 eliminating. The Privileges, the prop up the 724 00:51:46,500 --> 00:51:51,700 cost of medical care and that reduce people's incomes in there 725 00:51:51,700 --> 00:51:56,400 for their assets, to directly and certainly, through Insurance 726 00:51:56,400 --> 00:52:01,300 mechanisms so forth. So, I think that, in addition, 727 00:52:01,800 --> 00:52:05,100 the kinds of mutual Aid networks, that I referred to 728 00:52:05,100 --> 00:52:09,700 earlier that were important aspects of the provision of 729 00:52:09,707 --> 00:52:14,400 security, to people in the face of health challenges in the 730 00:52:14,500 --> 00:52:17,900 Interval 20th, centuries. Certainly, it seems to rain can 731 00:52:17,900 --> 00:52:23,000 be re-established and power the Caribbean in the 21st century. 732 00:52:23,600 --> 00:52:27,400 So, I think it's entirely reasonable goal to want to 733 00:52:27,400 --> 00:52:30,400 expand access and the quality of care. 734 00:52:30,500 --> 00:52:33,300 And at the same time. I think it's important to 735 00:52:33,300 --> 00:52:38,000 recognize that the state is the only way to do that and that 736 00:52:38,000 --> 00:52:42,200 states have indeed. It seems to be played important 737 00:52:42,200 --> 00:52:46,000 roles in dramatically. The increasing cost of care. 738 00:52:46,700 --> 00:52:51,900 My friend, Roger Guang has a great great essay drawing on the 739 00:52:51,908 --> 00:52:56,000 historical, work of people like David Beto and David Green, an 740 00:52:56,000 --> 00:52:59,200 essay called how government solve the healthcare crisis. 741 00:52:59,500 --> 00:53:05,900 And he's concerned here with the way in which the cost of Medical 742 00:53:05,900 --> 00:53:11,100 Care was dramatically reduced by the availability of same mass, 743 00:53:11,100 --> 00:53:14,400 purchase on the part of people in in the mutual Aid. 744 00:53:14,500 --> 00:53:18,300 Edwards in the 19th century. The crisis here was precisely 745 00:53:18,300 --> 00:53:20,800 that from the standpoint of the politically influential players 746 00:53:20,800 --> 00:53:23,400 in situation. Namely organized medical 747 00:53:23,400 --> 00:53:28,200 profession, you know, the prestige and especially the 748 00:53:28,200 --> 00:53:32,200 remuneration of Physicians was decreasing, say a mutual Aid 749 00:53:32,200 --> 00:53:36,900 group could, you know, hire a physician full-time, you know, 750 00:53:36,900 --> 00:53:41,600 that didn't seem to reflect the kind of professional work, you 751 00:53:41,600 --> 00:53:44,000 know, Prestige than two positions wanted, it certainly 752 00:53:44,000 --> 00:53:46,800 meant that That, you know, we don't want the young Physicians, 753 00:53:46,800 --> 00:53:50,600 can do this and make money, as they enter the profession into 754 00:53:51,000 --> 00:53:52,900 this, have the effect of driving down. 755 00:53:52,900 --> 00:53:57,400 What the incomes that established Physicians were able 756 00:53:57,400 --> 00:54:00,500 to able to gain, and the Practical effect was that they 757 00:54:00,600 --> 00:54:05,600 actively encouraged legislators to get rid of these. 758 00:54:06,000 --> 00:54:11,900 These Arrangements. They sought to blackball their 759 00:54:11,900 --> 00:54:14,000 own members, who participated in of course. 760 00:54:14,500 --> 00:54:18,800 Increasingly these medical societies Had State privileges 761 00:54:19,000 --> 00:54:21,400 that had to do licensing. And so by calling members really 762 00:54:21,400 --> 00:54:25,200 gave them the power to exclude. Those whose competition was 763 00:54:25,200 --> 00:54:29,400 driving down their incomes. So so the point is that we 764 00:54:29,400 --> 00:54:33,300 should recognize not only that markets can provide much less 765 00:54:33,400 --> 00:54:37,300 costly medical care that is on offer right now, but the to look 766 00:54:37,300 --> 00:54:40,900 in the state is a bit of a problem because the state can be 767 00:54:40,900 --> 00:54:44,300 seen as a player precisely in the increase, of course. 768 00:54:44,400 --> 00:54:48,700 It's in the influent ation of access that we can find final 769 00:54:48,700 --> 00:54:50,400 question, sir. Thank you so much for being 770 00:54:50,400 --> 00:54:54,200 generous with your time. Is the employee-employer 771 00:54:54,300 --> 00:54:57,800 relationship inherently exploitative, as in? 772 00:54:58,000 --> 00:55:02,000 I have to work for someone in order to live and they reap a 773 00:55:02,000 --> 00:55:05,100 surplus value. Only employing me knowing they 774 00:55:05,100 --> 00:55:08,300 will make money off of me. Is this inherently exploitative? 775 00:55:08,400 --> 00:55:11,100 Thus immoral. Thus in need of abolition. 776 00:55:13,400 --> 00:55:20,200 So I think that the short answer is no, then we have to get into 777 00:55:20,200 --> 00:55:24,900 a more complicated answer. There are a variety of Market 778 00:55:24,900 --> 00:55:30,100 distortions, which shaped the background conditions against 779 00:55:30,100 --> 00:55:33,500 which the employment relationship very often occurs. 780 00:55:33,900 --> 00:55:38,700 I think that many of us in employment situations, don't 781 00:55:38,700 --> 00:55:41,400 necessarily find those terribly appealing. 782 00:55:41,600 --> 00:55:48,200 It's not a lot of fun often to be pushed around by people above 783 00:55:48,200 --> 00:55:50,900 us in organizational, hierarchies. 784 00:55:51,200 --> 00:55:55,600 And we may find that those organizational hierarchies. 785 00:55:57,800 --> 00:56:01,300 Well, often some reasons that brought equals Theta function. 786 00:56:01,300 --> 00:56:06,100 Alright, so we think about the way in which, you know, big 787 00:56:06,100 --> 00:56:07,600 ironical States. Confront. 788 00:56:07,600 --> 00:56:09,500 Broadly speaking two kinds of problems, right? 789 00:56:09,500 --> 00:56:11,400 They confront incentive problems. 790 00:56:13,200 --> 00:56:17,700 Makers who try to manage the economy, very often, confront 791 00:56:17,700 --> 00:56:21,500 incentives that involve them in the choosing for their own 792 00:56:21,500 --> 00:56:24,000 benefit and the benefit of their cronies rather than for those of 793 00:56:24,200 --> 00:56:27,500 ordinary consumers. And they also confront the 794 00:56:27,500 --> 00:56:32,200 informational problems because as mises and Hayek showed us, 795 00:56:32,800 --> 00:56:36,600 the, you know, information that's needed to make economic 796 00:56:36,600 --> 00:56:39,600 decisions is distributed throughout Society of the 797 00:56:39,600 --> 00:56:42,100 Grassroots level with no one person has Has what could 798 00:56:42,100 --> 00:56:44,200 happen? Well, those same problems occur 799 00:56:44,200 --> 00:56:49,300 in large organizations and while not perhaps the same degree, 800 00:56:49,400 --> 00:56:53,300 nonetheless, hierarchical Corporation, often involves, you 801 00:56:53,300 --> 00:56:55,700 know, decision-makers who don't know what's going on at the 802 00:56:55,707 --> 00:56:58,800 Grassroots level don't have the information that's on offer 803 00:56:58,800 --> 00:57:01,500 there. There aren't prices to provide 804 00:57:01,500 --> 00:57:03,700 that information as there are in a market economy. 805 00:57:03,900 --> 00:57:06,100 And those top-level decision makers. 806 00:57:06,600 --> 00:57:10,200 Often again are acting for their own benefits more than for the 807 00:57:10,200 --> 00:57:13,700 benefit of shareholders or Of employees. 808 00:57:13,900 --> 00:57:19,100 So I think, you know, there really are economic pressures 809 00:57:19,100 --> 00:57:25,500 that might well be expected to yield smaller flat or 810 00:57:25,500 --> 00:57:29,800 organizations in which, you know, there would be more 811 00:57:29,800 --> 00:57:33,600 opportunity for participatory decision-making or indeed for 812 00:57:33,600 --> 00:57:37,600 participatory ownership as in Partnerships or go or coops. 813 00:57:38,600 --> 00:57:41,400 And I think a lot of us might benefit from them some 814 00:57:41,500 --> 00:57:43,900 Sometimes. However, what and what seems to 815 00:57:43,900 --> 00:57:49,200 be happening is that the state is responsible for whole range 816 00:57:49,200 --> 00:57:53,800 of privileges that can insulate a large well-connected 817 00:57:53,800 --> 00:57:57,100 organizations against the pressures that might otherwise 818 00:57:58,900 --> 00:58:02,800 lead to their replacement by s'mores latter alternative. 819 00:58:04,400 --> 00:58:07,000 Again, it's always more complicated than that because 820 00:58:07,000 --> 00:58:11,400 for instance, you know, while self employment offers a lot. 821 00:58:11,600 --> 00:58:14,700 More freedom. It can also offer a great deal 822 00:58:14,700 --> 00:58:16,800 of responsibility and therefore pressure. 823 00:58:16,900 --> 00:58:21,100 If you have to, you have to come up with a start-up cap on will 824 00:58:21,100 --> 00:58:25,600 yourself, that can be a much tougher and more risky 825 00:58:26,100 --> 00:58:28,200 undertaking. And so therefore I think some 826 00:58:28,200 --> 00:58:31,300 people might quit quite reasonably in some circumstances 827 00:58:31,300 --> 00:58:35,700 prefer to work for others, rather than to work for 828 00:58:35,700 --> 00:58:41,100 themselves, but I think, even in those cases, if we had reduced 829 00:58:41,100 --> 00:58:45,300 pressure. Sirs for if we eliminated the 830 00:58:45,300 --> 00:58:48,100 the support. I think that's provided to 831 00:58:48,100 --> 00:58:51,700 top-heavy hierarchical organizations then even in 832 00:58:51,707 --> 00:58:56,100 organizations in which employment was the primary 833 00:58:56,100 --> 00:58:59,500 source of Labor rather than than self-employment. 834 00:58:59,500 --> 00:59:02,400 We worked for others was the primary source of Labor. 835 00:59:02,400 --> 00:59:05,400 It might well be the case. I think of you you see more 836 00:59:05,400 --> 00:59:10,800 pressure for fairer and more participatory organizations that 837 00:59:10,800 --> 00:59:12,800 took advantage. People's knowledge and also 838 00:59:12,800 --> 00:59:14,300 treated them with greater dignity. 839 00:59:14,700 --> 00:59:18,200 I don't think they're for employment is in principle, 840 00:59:18,600 --> 00:59:22,100 exploitative, but I think many employment situations aren't 841 00:59:22,100 --> 00:59:24,800 very pleasant. I think most of us prefer not to 842 00:59:24,800 --> 00:59:28,700 be pushed around. And I think in a genuinely open 843 00:59:28,700 --> 00:59:32,000 market, we might expect to experience a good deal lesson 844 00:59:32,000 --> 00:59:36,200 that the books are Anarchy and legal order, law, and politics 845 00:59:36,200 --> 00:59:39,600 for a stateless society and economic Justice and natural 846 00:59:39,800 --> 00:59:41,400 law. Check them out at Gary Sharda. 847 00:59:41,500 --> 00:59:43,500 She got net Link in the description. 848 00:59:43,700 --> 00:59:45,100 Sir. Thank you so much for your time. 849 00:59:47,100 --> 00:59:48,500 Have a great day. Thank you for having me.