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There are two and only two ways 
that an economy can be 

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organized. 
One is by freedom and voluntary 

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Choice, the way of the market. 
The other is by force and 

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dictation the way of the state. 
Welcome to Keith's night. 

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Don't try it on anyone. 
Today. 

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We will be talking with 
Professor, Steven Horowitz. 

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He's the author of this great 
book. 

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Austrian economics in 
introduction. 

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He is the distinguished. 
Professor of free enterprise in 

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the department of economics, in 
the Miller College. 

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Of business at Ball State 
University in Muncie, Indiana. 

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He's also an Affiliated senior 
scholar at the meketa center in 

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Arlington, Virginia and a senior
fellow at the Fraser Institute 

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of Canada. 
Mr. Horowitz. 

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Thank you for your time today. 
My pleasure. 

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My pleasure. 
So before we critique anything, 

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let's make sure we're on the 
same page. 

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What is economics? 
All right, that's a brother has 

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brought place. 
So it's interesting, you ask 

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that question because I just 
wrote a piece for Mm dot org or 

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the encyclopedia libertarianism 
sort of General, peace and 

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economics. 
And the best way for me to sort 

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of think about economics is that
any time that human beings have 

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to make choices anytime that we 
Face scarcity, we have to make 

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choices and those choices have 
cost. 

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And what economics does is try 
to understand how people when 

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faced in situations of scarcity,
make those choices and what the 

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consequences of those choices 
are. 

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And importantly, how social 
institutions like the market 

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enable us to coordinate our 
activities. 

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Nonetheless, I mean, we're all 
choosing individually in the 

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face of our own perceptions of 
costs and benefits, but how does

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all that sort of come together 
and and and work for the benefit

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of everyone, that's what 
institutions of the market to. 

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So one way to think about 
economics as we study, how human

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beings engage in exchange under 
alternative institutions, 

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alternative sets of rules. 
That's so helpful to hear, 

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considering I thought economics 
was just the Dow Jones and the 

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World Bank and had nothing to do
with me. 

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That's why I was completely 
uninterested for my entire life 

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until I got the foundational 
Austrian explanation. 

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It seems like the Austrian 
school stands out so much in a 

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lot of aspects. 
I'm curious? 

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What makes the Austrian School 
of Economics unique among the 

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Chicago schools marks of 
schools. 

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What makes it unique. 
Well, I think the big thing that

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austrians are sort of two things
that austrians are interested in

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one is really taking seriously, 
the idea that it's people's 

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choices and it's are subjective 
assessments of the world that 

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drive those choices. 
Is that the sort of foundation 

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of Economics that people don't 
know everything and that that we

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were acting on partial knowledge
in the face of uncertainty and 

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we're trying to sort of stumble 
our way through the world and do

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the best, do the best that we 
can. 

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I think that's one of the most 
that piece is a is a key piece 

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and I think the other piece is 
the emphasis on processes. 

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We're not interested in 
equilibrium stories. 

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We're not interested in sort of 
solving for those those defined 

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equilibria. 
Yeah, what we're interested in 

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is sort of explaining how 
processes take place and how 

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markets adjust and how people 
learn through the marketplace. 

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Okay, I'm curious who just like 
I had said, previously a lot of 

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Economics that I always thought 
was. 

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Well, what's the GDP once I get 
GDP? 

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I know all there is to know, I'm
curious. 

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What is an accurate way of 
measuring wealth in a given 

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Society. 
Well, that's an interesting 

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question. 
Right? 

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I mean, we think of sort of the 
usual statistics we talked 

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about. 
I mean, it's got a lot of 

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imperfections, but sort of GDP 
per capita is useful in, The 

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sense that we know what that is,
we can compare it across 

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societies and we know that the 
problems of this with it are the

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same and every society. 
So certainly we think about sort

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of standard measures but I think
you know, rather than talk about

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wealth. 
Maybe we can talk about progress

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and make them talk about for me,
one of the indicators of just 

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how how well an economy's doing 
is how well it does by the least

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well-off in that Society. 
So, if we have measures of what 

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say poor people are able to 
consume what they have in their 

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households. 
If we think about things like 

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literacy and life expectancy, 
and all those kind of things are

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all real indicators of just how 
wealthy and how well a societies

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doing wealth, notice that 
wealth. 

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There isn't just material 
wealth. 

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It's it's, it's, you know, can 
think of wealth is all the 

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things that we value. 
And so. 

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And I think progress journey is 
as good a word as any to talk 

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about what, what, I think we're 
getting at when we say, how do 

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we measure wealth and how do we,
how do we compare Societies in 

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particular? 
Why do you think some countries 

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are wealthy and some countries 
are impoverished? 

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Well, that's about as I was 
suggesting before. 

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That's about the institutions 
were the rules of the game. 

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Right? 
I think one of the most 

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important insights and economics
is that people are people, 

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right? 
What, what, what? 

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Sometimes been turned, 
analytical egalitarianism. 

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That we, that this goes back to 
Adam, Smith that people are 

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people. 
What, what explains the 

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diversity among people is sort 
of the way in which were brought

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up in the Sort of world that we 
live in and so on and what 

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explains those differences 
across countries is what are the

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institutions under which people 
operate societies, that protect 

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private property that have the 
rule of law that have sound 

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money and awesome. 
All the things we associate with

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with the sort of liberal 
institutions are going to be 

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societies that do better than 
ones in which, which the private

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property is absent or or 
interfered with a great deal. 

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So, when we want to make those 
comparisons, we want to look at 

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those institutions, those 
practices those rules of the 

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games including I would add Sort
of people sort of philosophical 

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standpoint or their ethical 
beliefs. 

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You can have a society with the 
right institutions. 

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But if people think making it 
profits, a bad thing, that those

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societies are going to work very
well. 

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And you also need this sort of 
ethical belief that it's okay to

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make a profit. 
It's okay to pursue your 

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self-interest. 
Those sorts of things too. 

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So another words, the reason 
that we see sort of this hockey 

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stick of human progress of, you 
know, very little progress for 

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like let's say well, let's just 
go with a house thousands and 

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thousands of years. 
Premieres to be fair and then 

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it's like 1802 the year 2000 and
that 200-year period. 

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Totally goes up. 
So you're saying much like the 

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Deirdre McCloskey is of the 
world that is not only economic 

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freedom. 
But it's also social honor. 

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And the general recognition that
investing innovating is a good 

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thing and trading and exchanges 
not exploitation to be looked 

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down upon but a virtue to be 
admired and that's right. 

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Right. 
That's right. 

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And it's McCloskey goes at those
are the Bourgeois virtues, 

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right? 
Those are those those sort of 

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belief the belief in that 
ethical system, but also, you 

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know, the institutions matter 
to, I mean, I think, you know, 

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McCluskey's work. 
She has tried very hard to 

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emphasize the ethical. 
Peace because the focus is so 

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heavily been on institutions, 
but I think you got to have 

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both, right? 
You got to have both to work and

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what we see is you suggest, 
right? 

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Is Humanity's sort of, you know,
riding along and misery for 

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thousands of years. 
And then when we finally got the

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institutions, right and we 
finally got that. 

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A cool beliefs, right? 
250 years ago. 

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Guess what? 
Here, we are things things take 

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off. 
When I look at some major issues

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in America, I think of 
homelessness and lack of 

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healthcare for a large segment 
of the population. 

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I'm curious. 
So if my general desire is or my

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question is, how can we increase
access to those in lower income 

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brackets over time while 
increasing quality like we do 

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with cell phones? 
Computers tablets cars, Etc. 

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Is that possible and all 
sectors. 

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Is this something fundamental to
how human beings? 

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Or there's some sectors where 
the state needs to be involved. 

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Regardless of whatever fanciful 
ideas, economists. 

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Have I think you can do it in 
all those and in any sector, 

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right? 
It's certainly in those two, for

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sure. 
If we think about housing and, 

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and Healthcare, and they're 
interesting examples because 

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their markets or Industries in 
which markets are are intervened

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in quite a bit by the state and 
that sometimes makes things 

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worse than they would be 
otherwise, but that said right. 

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I mean, it's I think it's 
important when we think about 

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sort of Health Care, for 
example, to distinguish among 

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health insurance, which not 
everybody has and Healthcare 

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which most people manage to get 
one one way or the other. 

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And and it's even given all the 
interventions that we might 

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think about the advances in 
health care are over the last 

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pick your number of years have 
been amazing, right? 

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And people live longer lives and
diseases are concurred in all 

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kinds of ways and stuff. 
It's actually cheaper. 

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One of the reasons we spend so 
much in the aggregate on Health 

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Care is that we have it to spend
because some of the Fizz way 

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cheaper than it used to be and 
we can afford to spend on new or

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different treatment. 
So I think it's important to 

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keep that in mind that said with
Healthcare. 

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I think two things that we could
do sort of as policy things that

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would help a great deal. 
One is to decouple health 

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insurance from employment, 
right? 

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The fact that you get your 
health insurance through your 

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employer is a relic of 
government wage and price 

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controls and World War 2. 
And if we could break that link 

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and it's fairly easy to do, 
think we'd see a whole bunch of 

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new kinds of options come in. 
So that's one. 

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But also on the supply side, we 
need to do. 

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Regulate as well. 
We need to give doctors and 

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nurses more freedom to do 
certain kinds of things. 

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Especially nurses, who want to 
say prescribed, things like 

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that. 
We want to occupational 

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licensure laws and make that 
more difficult. 

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We want to open up Interstate 
competition in the provision of 

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insurance and other things. 
So there's all kinds of things 

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we can do there to make those 
markets better and similarly 

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with housing, right? 
I mean, the the story of the US 

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housing market is a fascinating 
one. 

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Your listeners might want to 
look for Roth the book by Austin

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called the color of law, which 
traces through the history of 

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how of the sort of racist, 
intense and consequences of US 

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government housing policy. 
One explain. 

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Why it? 
There's big difference to say in

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black white housing ownership. 
This is the book to read to 

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understand. 
If we want to expand home 

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ownership to more people getting
rid of a lot of those 

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regulations would help and 
similarly, a lot of things, a 

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lot of things like zoning. 
And so on in cities, that keep 

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Brent's high are another reason.
Why housing is so expensive and 

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That explains to some degree 
what we see in terms of hormones

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homelessness and so on. 
Yeah, that is something I even 

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read. 
Paul Krugman admit, in arguing 

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with zombies, that zoning 
drastically increases the price 

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of housing. 
You also have people like Elvis 

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summers in California, who made 
houses for the homeless at about

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fifteen hundred dollars each. 
They were very nice. 

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They were more or less boxes, 
but drastic improvement of of 

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course the city shut it down 
even though it was private 

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property. 
Not Because they, but they said 

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it's okay because they're going 
to go through with a poverty 

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bill that they have in 
Washington, d.c. 

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A guy named Jay, Austin did the 
same thing. 

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They shut him down, right? 
According to whatever 

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regulation, even though. 
It's a drastic improvement. 

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It's still not good enough. 
They'd rather shut it down and 

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claim to be the heroes tell you 
from now, right? 

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And those Innovations are great,
great examples of how how 

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entrepreneurship and markets 
work to sort of provide those 

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things that that are otherwise 
missing. 

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Yeah, and then On health care, 
doctor, Mary, J ruark wrote a 

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great book called Death by 
regulation, and it's just 

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fascinating that we could have 
so much Innovation. 

231
00:11:23,700 --> 00:11:26,200
It's not because there's too 
much freedom and voluntary 

232
00:11:26,200 --> 00:11:29,100
Exchange in these sectors. 
It's the introduction of 

233
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coercion as always. 
You mention in a great chapter 

234
00:11:34,500 --> 00:11:39,500
in Austrian economics and 
introduction about 1974. 

235
00:11:39,500 --> 00:11:43,000
I believe it was where Friedrich
Hayek, a member of the Austrian 

236
00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:46,900
School of thought won the Price 
for effect, getting a 

237
00:11:46,900 --> 00:11:50,300
foundational understanding of 
the business cycle or why we 

238
00:11:50,300 --> 00:11:53,900
experience recessions. 
Why do we experience recessions?

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00:11:54,700 --> 00:11:57,100
Well, at least with the 
austrians would hike argued was 

240
00:11:57,100 --> 00:12:01,200
that the recessions are the 
inevitable result of excessive 

241
00:12:01,200 --> 00:12:03,300
money creation and credit 
expansion. 

242
00:12:03,300 --> 00:12:07,500
So you have inflation inflation 
distorts prices. 

243
00:12:07,500 --> 00:12:10,200
It distorts in particular the 
interest rate that makes it 

244
00:12:10,200 --> 00:12:13,000
look, it makes the interest rate
lower than it really. 

245
00:12:13,000 --> 00:12:14,500
Is? 
It makes it look like people are

246
00:12:14,500 --> 00:12:16,500
more future. 
Oriented than they really are 

247
00:12:17,100 --> 00:12:21,200
and entrepreneurs start building
longer process of production, 

248
00:12:21,200 --> 00:12:23,500
investing more, and in research 
and development. 

249
00:12:23,500 --> 00:12:25,800
And those sorts of things 
anticipating that, eventually 

250
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the demand will be there. 
Turns out it's not going to be 

251
00:12:28,500 --> 00:12:30,000
there. 
People's preferences haven't 

252
00:12:30,000 --> 00:12:32,100
really changed. 
And so you get first, you get 

253
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the boom, as sort of everyone 
responds to those lower interest

254
00:12:34,700 --> 00:12:38,400
rates by building up production,
eventually, the truth becomes 

255
00:12:38,400 --> 00:12:41,900
revealed and then you turn into 
the and you have the down turn 

256
00:12:41,900 --> 00:12:45,000
into the recession and what 
recessions are are correcting. 

257
00:12:45,200 --> 00:12:46,900
Mistakes of the boom. 
And I think that's really 

258
00:12:46,900 --> 00:12:49,700
important to understand the 
mistakes get made during that 

259
00:12:49,700 --> 00:12:51,900
inflationary period in 
recessions or the way in which 

260
00:12:51,900 --> 00:12:55,100
we correct that what we call 
malinvestment and try to get 

261
00:12:55,100 --> 00:12:57,900
resources, allocated back to 
where they will be more 

262
00:12:57,900 --> 00:12:59,500
productive. 
So, if you want to understand 

263
00:12:59,800 --> 00:13:02,100
why recessions, at least most 
recessions, what we're seeing 

264
00:13:02,100 --> 00:13:04,800
with covid to different story 
for a bunch of reasons, why 

265
00:13:04,800 --> 00:13:08,000
won't my most recessions happen?
One place to look is to see 

266
00:13:08,000 --> 00:13:11,600
what's happening with inflation 
and that's in our own era. 

267
00:13:11,600 --> 00:13:14,700
That means looking at the fed 
and other central banks and and 

268
00:13:15,100 --> 00:13:18,400
and it's their poor policies 
that are that are driving that 

269
00:13:18,400 --> 00:13:23,200
process a general argument 
against free market. 

270
00:13:23,200 --> 00:13:26,700
Economics. 
Is that some regulation if not, 

271
00:13:26,700 --> 00:13:30,300
a large amount of Regulation 
needs to be introduced, where we

272
00:13:30,300 --> 00:13:33,900
would normally have this chaotic
state of nature man-on-man 

273
00:13:33,900 --> 00:13:36,500
exploitation. 
No one really getting a fair 

274
00:13:36,500 --> 00:13:39,700
shot, people constantly getting 
screwed, but then the state 

275
00:13:39,700 --> 00:13:44,000
ushers in a regulatory regime 
under which people are able to 

276
00:13:44,000 --> 00:13:49,000
engage in You know, but 
generally accepted Commerce, why

277
00:13:49,000 --> 00:13:52,000
are the Austrian? 
Why are the austrians? 

278
00:13:52,000 --> 00:13:56,800
So hesitant or outright opposing
to State regulation? 

279
00:13:57,900 --> 00:13:59,900
Well, I think there's two sides 
of the story, right? 

280
00:13:59,900 --> 00:14:03,600
One is an understanding of how 
markets work and why people have

281
00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:06,400
have have reasons to cooperate 
with each other and an 

282
00:14:06,400 --> 00:14:10,600
understanding that in fact, much
of the law that governs Market 

283
00:14:10,600 --> 00:14:12,700
transactions. 
Commercial law emerged out of 

284
00:14:12,700 --> 00:14:15,000
these same sort of voluntary 
emergent. 

285
00:14:15,100 --> 00:14:17,600
Yes, order processes that 
markets do right. 

286
00:14:17,600 --> 00:14:20,900
Nobody invented, contract law. 
Nobody invented, all that 

287
00:14:20,900 --> 00:14:22,800
commercial law. 
Those are, those are emergent 

288
00:14:22,800 --> 00:14:26,300
orders and they grew out of the 
needs of actual Traders. 

289
00:14:26,300 --> 00:14:29,800
So, so, so understanding, first 
of all, that, that law that 

290
00:14:29,800 --> 00:14:31,700
rules. 
And in that sense of the word 

291
00:14:31,700 --> 00:14:34,500
regulation, right? 
You can have a regulated market 

292
00:14:34,500 --> 00:14:37,600
in the sense of having one that 
abides by rules and laws without

293
00:14:37,600 --> 00:14:40,800
the state having to step in to 
do, it is really important. 

294
00:14:40,800 --> 00:14:44,700
So, on one side auctions would 
say, We'll look, there's ways 

295
00:14:44,700 --> 00:14:46,900
for people Solve those problems 
and develop those Rules by 

296
00:14:46,900 --> 00:14:49,800
themselves to ensure that no 
one's getting screwed. 

297
00:14:49,800 --> 00:14:53,000
And that people are engaging in 
Fair Commerce, on the other 

298
00:14:53,000 --> 00:14:54,700
hand, right? 
When you give the state the 

299
00:14:54,700 --> 00:14:58,200
power to do these things. 
You have two issues, one will 

300
00:14:58,200 --> 00:15:01,900
politicians and political actors
know what rules to adopt and 

301
00:15:01,900 --> 00:15:04,300
what are the right solutions to 
these problems. 

302
00:15:04,700 --> 00:15:07,500
The wisdom of crowds is better 
than the wisdom of a handful of 

303
00:15:07,500 --> 00:15:09,900
people in Washington. 
And the other part, of course, 

304
00:15:09,900 --> 00:15:12,100
is that that do they have the 
incentive to do it, right? 

305
00:15:12,100 --> 00:15:15,000
And and once you create those 
institutions of power, why? 

306
00:15:15,100 --> 00:15:18,100
Should we be so confident that 
the power will be used the way 

307
00:15:18,100 --> 00:15:20,400
we think it should be as opposed
to what's in the interest of 

308
00:15:20,400 --> 00:15:22,900
those who possess it and 
certainly the Trump 

309
00:15:22,900 --> 00:15:25,100
Administration has given us, 
plenty of reason to believe 

310
00:15:25,100 --> 00:15:27,100
that. 
That when you create 

311
00:15:27,100 --> 00:15:30,100
institutions of power, and you 
put the right or wrong person in

312
00:15:30,100 --> 00:15:31,600
it. 
They're going to be used in 

313
00:15:31,600 --> 00:15:33,500
misusing. 
That's not a, that's not a 

314
00:15:33,800 --> 00:15:36,400
critique. 
That's not to say that the 

315
00:15:36,400 --> 00:15:39,000
problem is bad people, right? 
Problem is you have these levers

316
00:15:39,000 --> 00:15:40,900
of power. 
And those levers of power will 

317
00:15:40,900 --> 00:15:44,200
attract people who have an 
interest and a skill at using 

318
00:15:44,200 --> 00:15:46,400
them in particular use. 
Them in problematic ways. 

319
00:15:47,400 --> 00:15:51,800
So, Tom Hartman basically says, 
there is one argument that 

320
00:15:51,800 --> 00:15:55,200
really takes down both Chicago 
school and Austrian School of 

321
00:15:55,300 --> 00:15:58,600
economics. 
And it is that because they are 

322
00:15:58,700 --> 00:16:03,300
foundationally unsound theories,
that assumed human beings have 

323
00:16:03,400 --> 00:16:06,700
perfect knowledge. 
Now, I've heard this criticism a

324
00:16:06,700 --> 00:16:09,100
number of times. 
I've never heard any Austrian or

325
00:16:09,108 --> 00:16:12,500
Chicago and say I know people 
have perfect information. 

326
00:16:12,700 --> 00:16:15,600
However, this is the criticism. 
How do you Respond to the 

327
00:16:15,600 --> 00:16:18,400
mindset. 
That what makes this a naive 

328
00:16:18,400 --> 00:16:20,900
unrealistic worldview? 
Is it assumes perfect 

329
00:16:20,900 --> 00:16:24,900
information, amongst consumers 
and employers and people across 

330
00:16:24,900 --> 00:16:27,500
states and countries as a 
description of the Austrian 

331
00:16:27,500 --> 00:16:29,300
School. 
It's just flat out wrong. 

332
00:16:29,400 --> 00:16:31,500
That's that. 
That's the only there's, there's

333
00:16:31,500 --> 00:16:34,300
absolutely no substantive 
evidence to support that. 

334
00:16:34,300 --> 00:16:36,800
That's what austrians believe, 
it's a little trickier with 

335
00:16:36,800 --> 00:16:39,100
Chicago, right? 
But austrians from the very 

336
00:16:39,100 --> 00:16:41,900
start, including Carl Menger 
who, you know, whose work 

337
00:16:41,900 --> 00:16:44,900
founded the school, the the 
description of human. 

338
00:16:45,200 --> 00:16:49,200
Have been as I suggested earlier
of people who are imperfect, who

339
00:16:49,200 --> 00:16:52,900
don't know, everything, who face
uncertainty, who are engaged in 

340
00:16:52,900 --> 00:16:57,200
Market transactions, as a way to
learn and discover, that's fact,

341
00:16:57,200 --> 00:17:00,400
that's the core of the school 
and that's the core of the whole

342
00:17:01,400 --> 00:17:02,600
certainly for the austrians. 
Right? 

343
00:17:02,600 --> 00:17:05,900
The core of the way we 
understand ourselves is to say 

344
00:17:05,900 --> 00:17:07,800
that human beings don't have 
perfect knowledge. 

345
00:17:08,200 --> 00:17:11,500
And and in fact that's part, of 
interestingly, part of the 

346
00:17:11,500 --> 00:17:13,900
reason why we're skeptical, 
skeptical about government, 

347
00:17:13,900 --> 00:17:16,200
impose Solutions, Because 
political actors don't have 

348
00:17:16,200 --> 00:17:17,700
perfect knowledge either. 
Right. 

349
00:17:17,700 --> 00:17:20,400
And it's not that we're saying 
they have perfect now, they 

350
00:17:20,400 --> 00:17:22,099
don't have perfect knowledge but
Market participants. 

351
00:17:22,099 --> 00:17:25,200
Do, neither one does. 
The question is under what sorts

352
00:17:25,200 --> 00:17:28,600
of rules and what sorts of 
Institutions will imperfect 

353
00:17:28,600 --> 00:17:30,900
partially knowing human actors. 
Be better. 

354
00:17:30,900 --> 00:17:33,100
Able to coordinate their 
behavior and produce progress. 

355
00:17:33,100 --> 00:17:35,000
That's the question. 
Yeah. 

356
00:17:35,000 --> 00:17:37,900
That is a great article. 
I came across by Don Boudreaux 

357
00:17:38,100 --> 00:17:42,000
where he says, dumb individuals 
brilliant voters where people 

358
00:17:42,000 --> 00:17:44,600
are so dumb that they can't be 
trusted with freedom. 

359
00:17:45,100 --> 00:17:47,900
Wait, we need to vote. 
If you don't get active and 

360
00:17:47,900 --> 00:17:50,900
participate, then you're the 
reason democracy isn't 

361
00:17:50,900 --> 00:17:52,600
succeeding. 
It's like, well, if you can 

362
00:17:52,600 --> 00:17:55,700
trust them with their own 
judgment or the Judgment that 

363
00:17:55,700 --> 00:17:57,600
they delegate to an expert in 
the field. 

364
00:17:57,700 --> 00:18:00,100
How can you trust them to vote 
for what the head of the FBI 

365
00:18:00,100 --> 00:18:01,500
agent? 
Right basis? 

366
00:18:01,700 --> 00:18:03,300
Yeah, mrs. 
Makes this point to yeah, 

367
00:18:03,300 --> 00:18:09,400
absolutely. 
So another claim is that in this

368
00:18:09,600 --> 00:18:14,700
ideal framework of no coercive 
State intervention. 

369
00:18:15,000 --> 00:18:18,100
You might have one much like you
have one playground on the 

370
00:18:18,100 --> 00:18:23,100
bully, one wise, you know crack 
in the class in a larger 

371
00:18:23,100 --> 00:18:25,200
context. 
You would have a single 

372
00:18:25,200 --> 00:18:29,300
monopolist and an industry. 
They would find some way to 

373
00:18:29,300 --> 00:18:33,200
undercut the competition by them
up because the competitions in a

374
00:18:33,200 --> 00:18:37,500
vulnerable situation, leave 
consumers and employees with 

375
00:18:37,500 --> 00:18:40,100
very few choices. 
Once they're in that position, 

376
00:18:40,100 --> 00:18:43,900
drastically raise the prices and
leave the extremely vulnerable 

377
00:18:43,900 --> 00:18:47,400
populous on Able to have many 
Alternatives and being 

378
00:18:47,400 --> 00:18:50,500
exploitative being exploited. 
Rather. 

379
00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:54,800
Do you think the possible 
existence of monopolies is a 

380
00:18:55,100 --> 00:18:58,500
weakness of the Austrian School?
Well, that's an area. 

381
00:18:58,500 --> 00:19:01,200
You layout is what Economist 
call, predatory pricing, right? 

382
00:19:01,200 --> 00:19:03,700
And there's there's a number of 
questions. 

383
00:19:03,700 --> 00:19:06,400
One can raise it by, I'll raise 
the sort of narrow one first, 

384
00:19:06,400 --> 00:19:09,600
which is where, wait a second, 
if predatory pricing Behavior. 

385
00:19:09,600 --> 00:19:11,500
Like that is how firms become 
monopolies. 

386
00:19:11,500 --> 00:19:13,300
How did they get in the first 
place? 

387
00:19:13,300 --> 00:19:17,300
How do they get the sort of? 
Profits to be able to afford to 

388
00:19:17,308 --> 00:19:20,500
unto quote undercut, the 
competition for so long and take

389
00:19:20,500 --> 00:19:21,000
losses. 
Right? 

390
00:19:21,000 --> 00:19:22,300
That must have come from 
somewhere else. 

391
00:19:22,300 --> 00:19:24,800
So it can't be an explanation of
how firms become monopolies. 

392
00:19:24,800 --> 00:19:28,000
And even if I recall the way you
described it, suppose you have a

393
00:19:28,000 --> 00:19:29,600
monopoly, right? 
And then does he sink? 

394
00:19:29,600 --> 00:19:33,100
Well, wait a second suppose what
where'd that come from? 

395
00:19:33,100 --> 00:19:36,300
And, and, and plus, if it's not 
if there's competition it's not 

396
00:19:36,300 --> 00:19:37,500
really a monopoly. 
I'm a true. 

397
00:19:37,500 --> 00:19:40,500
Monopoly means one, right? 
And we often see people today. 

398
00:19:40,500 --> 00:19:43,000
Use the term Monopoly to 
describe large firms. 

399
00:19:43,000 --> 00:19:46,700
It doesn't mean large firm. 
It means Mono one, right? 

400
00:19:46,700 --> 00:19:48,800
One and only one. 
So the bigger question though. 

401
00:19:48,800 --> 00:19:52,500
I think is this I often 
challenged students with this 

402
00:19:52,500 --> 00:19:57,500
question, which is give me a 
historical example of a company 

403
00:19:57,500 --> 00:20:01,400
that acquired a Monopoly without
any help from the state that 

404
00:20:01,400 --> 00:20:04,700
through the market, became the 
sole seller of a good and when 

405
00:20:04,700 --> 00:20:08,000
it became the sole seller raised
prices and restricted output, 

406
00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:09,700
because that's what theory says 
it should do. 

407
00:20:10,200 --> 00:20:12,600
And I submit there's no such 
example, at least in American 

408
00:20:12,600 --> 00:20:14,800
history, the examples that we 
sometimes think of it. 

409
00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:19,400
As monopolies either were not 
pleased that were granted by the

410
00:20:19,400 --> 00:20:21,200
state example. 
Would be AT&T. 

411
00:20:21,200 --> 00:20:23,000
In its early years was given a 
state Monopoly. 

412
00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:26,000
Over the telephone US, Postal 
Service Monopoly over 

413
00:20:26,000 --> 00:20:27,400
first-class mail. 
Okay. 

414
00:20:28,100 --> 00:20:31,400
So those are examples of State 
granted monopolies and and any 

415
00:20:31,400 --> 00:20:34,200
other Market ones and there's a 
few that are pretty close where 

416
00:20:34,200 --> 00:20:36,300
firms were nearly single sellers
right? 

417
00:20:36,300 --> 00:20:38,600
For a while, Microsoft was in 
certain markets. 

418
00:20:38,600 --> 00:20:41,000
But again, it's not, they raise 
their prices in restricted, 

419
00:20:41,000 --> 00:20:44,100
output to the contrary, right? 
They gave yourself away for 

420
00:20:44,100 --> 00:20:46,700
free. 
And lots of people use it. 

421
00:20:46,700 --> 00:20:50,700
So, so the question is show me, 
an example of a market created 

422
00:20:50,800 --> 00:20:54,600
Monopoly, that behaved poorly in
the way. 

423
00:20:54,600 --> 00:20:57,500
That models, say the real 
problem with Monopoly is when 

424
00:20:57,500 --> 00:21:01,200
States Grant privilege to 
particular producers and prevent

425
00:21:01,200 --> 00:21:03,700
an inch and insulate them that 
privilege insulates them from 

426
00:21:03,700 --> 00:21:05,700
competition. 
That's the real problem. 

427
00:21:05,700 --> 00:21:07,900
That's when they're able to 
raise prices and restrict output

428
00:21:07,900 --> 00:21:11,100
and so forth. 
Could we possibly maybe 

429
00:21:11,100 --> 00:21:14,600
experienced something like 
what's referred to as pooling? 

430
00:21:14,700 --> 00:21:16,500
Where? 
There is a general meeting of 

431
00:21:16,500 --> 00:21:19,400
the minds amongst competitors, 
that it's a virtual. 

432
00:21:19,400 --> 00:21:23,700
That it's a mutually beneficial 
if they all artificially price 

433
00:21:23,700 --> 00:21:26,900
high in order. 
So not one of them wins over the

434
00:21:26,900 --> 00:21:29,500
other but they engage in what? 
I'm sorry. 

435
00:21:29,500 --> 00:21:34,300
What is it? 
I think it's Cartel Cartel is a 

436
00:21:34,300 --> 00:21:37,900
possible existence of Market 
cartels, a weakness of the 

437
00:21:37,900 --> 00:21:41,300
Austrian School. 
So the question you have to ask 

438
00:21:41,300 --> 00:21:47,700
here is is that is Such a cartel
again without support from the 

439
00:21:47,700 --> 00:21:50,300
state in the interest of the 
participants, right? 

440
00:21:50,300 --> 00:21:52,000
You can each of them might say 
well, sure. 

441
00:21:52,000 --> 00:21:54,900
Yeah, if we get together and we 
agree on a to restrict output 

442
00:21:54,900 --> 00:21:56,500
and raise price, we can all 
benefit from it. 

443
00:21:56,500 --> 00:21:59,200
But notice that each of the 
members of the cartel has an 

444
00:21:59,200 --> 00:22:00,800
incentive to break that 
agreement. 

445
00:22:00,900 --> 00:22:02,100
Right? 
What they want to be able to do 

446
00:22:02,100 --> 00:22:05,300
is have everyone else charge the
high price while they actually 

447
00:22:05,600 --> 00:22:07,700
find a way to increase 
production and often the good at

448
00:22:07,700 --> 00:22:10,100
a lower price, that's in their 
incentive to do that. 

449
00:22:10,100 --> 00:22:12,500
And if each of those cartel 
members has that same incentive,

450
00:22:12,800 --> 00:22:14,200
right? 
The cartel, just just falls 

451
00:22:14,200 --> 00:22:15,800
apart. 
So, one of the Tom's you faced 

452
00:22:15,800 --> 00:22:18,700
with cartels, is how do you 
ensure that the agreement holds?

453
00:22:18,700 --> 00:22:21,100
How do you get people to act in 
ways that that are clearly 

454
00:22:21,100 --> 00:22:23,600
against their self-interest? 
And that's why they're too. 

455
00:22:23,600 --> 00:22:26,500
I think there's very few 
examples if any of truly 

456
00:22:26,500 --> 00:22:30,500
market-driven cartels lasting 
for any, any real period of 

457
00:22:30,500 --> 00:22:34,100
time, it's amazing that all 
these creative criticisms. 

458
00:22:34,100 --> 00:22:36,500
They find under the Deep 
microscope. 

459
00:22:36,500 --> 00:22:39,500
They never apply to the state. 
It's like, okay. 

460
00:22:39,900 --> 00:22:42,700
How about the government's 
trillion dollar a year military?

461
00:22:42,700 --> 00:22:45,000
That makes us less safe creates 
enemies. 

462
00:22:45,100 --> 00:22:49,700
And funds jihadis to fight Assad
and fight Qaddafi. 

463
00:22:49,700 --> 00:22:51,200
How about the 22 
trillion-dollar? 

464
00:22:51,200 --> 00:22:54,500
Welfare state that hasn't solved
poverty, even though they 

465
00:22:54,500 --> 00:22:56,700
promise it's going to Medicare 
Medicaid. 

466
00:22:56,800 --> 00:22:59,700
Have not solved. 
The problem of healthcare every 

467
00:22:59,700 --> 00:23:02,500
time, you know, there's a bill 
they have to make 10 more bills 

468
00:23:02,500 --> 00:23:04,100
to make up for the last one. 
They screwed up. 

469
00:23:04,500 --> 00:23:07,200
They never apply this principle 
consistently, which the 

470
00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:09,600
austrians uniquely do. 
And that's another real 

471
00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:11,100
strength. 
I think the austrians have. 

472
00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:14,400
Yeah. 
I'm yeah, I think just as a 

473
00:23:14,400 --> 00:23:16,900
general point. 
We you know, critics talk about 

474
00:23:16,900 --> 00:23:19,600
market failure, all the time 
that markets don't live up to 

475
00:23:19,600 --> 00:23:21,000
what the model says they should 
do. 

476
00:23:21,500 --> 00:23:23,500
But we also have to talk about 
government failure. 

477
00:23:23,500 --> 00:23:25,300
Right? 
And and does got has does 

478
00:23:25,300 --> 00:23:27,900
government do what we say, it 
should do? 

479
00:23:27,900 --> 00:23:30,800
And solve the problems that as 
you said, problems it claims it 

480
00:23:30,800 --> 00:23:33,100
solid. 
Yeah, and at least with the 

481
00:23:33,100 --> 00:23:37,000
market, you can opt out. 
It's like every criticism of the

482
00:23:37,300 --> 00:23:40,800
market applies tenfold to the 
state because you can always opt

483
00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:43,400
out of funding. 
Whoever it is in the 

484
00:23:43,400 --> 00:23:47,300
marketplace. 
Speaking of funding only who you

485
00:23:47,300 --> 00:23:52,000
want to, you open the book, 
talking about subjective value. 

486
00:23:52,100 --> 00:23:55,300
Y is subjective value an 
important concept. 

487
00:23:55,900 --> 00:23:59,500
Well, we have to understand that
that's if we want to understand 

488
00:23:59,700 --> 00:24:02,700
behavior in the marketplace. 
We have to understand how 

489
00:24:02,700 --> 00:24:05,100
individuals choose and the 
choices that they make and so on

490
00:24:05,100 --> 00:24:09,700
and that the start of as back to
McCloskey, as she says 

491
00:24:09,700 --> 00:24:13,000
economics, would happens between
your ears right in that. 

492
00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:15,000
It's people's perceptions of the
world that drive. 

493
00:24:15,200 --> 00:24:18,500
Actions, and so economic value. 
And we think about economic 

494
00:24:18,500 --> 00:24:20,900
value is, do people think 
something is useful to them. 

495
00:24:21,100 --> 00:24:23,400
Do they think that this 
particular good will satisfy a 

496
00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:26,500
particular want that they have? 
That's where economic value 

497
00:24:26,500 --> 00:24:29,900
comes from, from our perceptions
of it and how each person's 

498
00:24:29,900 --> 00:24:32,300
perceptions of value interact 
with with each other. 

499
00:24:32,300 --> 00:24:34,500
And with people who want to sell
Goods determines Market 

500
00:24:34,500 --> 00:24:38,700
outcomes, subjective theory of 
value was was a was the correct 

501
00:24:38,700 --> 00:24:41,800
response to previous theories of
value like labor theory of value

502
00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:44,500
or other when we call cost of 
production, theories of value, 

503
00:24:44,700 --> 00:24:48,200
which Which could not explain 
observed phenomena in the real 

504
00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:53,900
world, but the subjective theory
of value could now, while you 

505
00:24:53,900 --> 00:24:55,500
mentioned the labor theory of 
value. 

506
00:24:55,500 --> 00:24:59,800
I have one General response that
I could see coming from the 

507
00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:02,800
labor theory of value. 
Advocates from you know, Adam 

508
00:25:02,800 --> 00:25:08,600
Smith to Richard wolf today that
not all labor is value. 

509
00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:12,800
For example, I dig a hole, fill 
it back up eight hours a day. 

510
00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:16,600
That's not value. 
But all Value is labor. 

511
00:25:16,700 --> 00:25:19,700
Another words. 
This very book only has value to

512
00:25:19,700 --> 00:25:23,900
me because someone put the labor
you plus the manufacturer, put 

513
00:25:23,900 --> 00:25:26,100
the labor into it to make it for
me. 

514
00:25:26,100 --> 00:25:28,400
So I could enjoy it there for 
the labor. 

515
00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:33,200
Theory of value was accurate 
because all value comes from 

516
00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:35,500
labor. 
Your what you're walking you're 

517
00:25:35,500 --> 00:25:40,100
thirsty and you're walking along
the street and you see a 

518
00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:45,200
unstarted bottle of water 
sitting right there or Better 

519
00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:46,500
yet. 
Here's a better reaction times. 

520
00:25:46,500 --> 00:25:49,200
Do better example, you're 
walking, you're walking through 

521
00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:52,200
forest and you're thirsty and 
there's a stream running through

522
00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:54,400
the forest and you decide to 
take some of the stream water 

523
00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:57,100
and drink it, right? 
You value. 

524
00:25:57,100 --> 00:25:59,900
That's there's no question that 
stream water has value for you 

525
00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:02,900
right yet. 
It's not clear. 

526
00:26:02,900 --> 00:26:05,100
There was any labor that went 
into producing, right? 

527
00:26:05,100 --> 00:26:08,000
How do you part of the problem 
with one problem and not the 

528
00:26:08,008 --> 00:26:10,500
biggest problem, but one problem
to labor theory of value is, how

529
00:26:10,500 --> 00:26:13,200
do you explain things like that?
How do you explain Goods that 

530
00:26:13,500 --> 00:26:16,800
sort of the goods of nature? 
That no labor went into that. 

531
00:26:16,800 --> 00:26:18,600
Nonetheless. 
Clearly have value to us. 

532
00:26:19,700 --> 00:26:22,200
Sure. 
And the fact that I value, you 

533
00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:25,000
know, paying for this book and 
spending time to read it. 

534
00:26:25,100 --> 00:26:28,900
Whereas, you know, I know other 
people who hate libertarianism 

535
00:26:28,900 --> 00:26:32,100
in the Austrian School, who 
wouldn't spend a penny on it and

536
00:26:32,100 --> 00:26:34,200
wouldn't read it. 
Well, luckily for them. 

537
00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:36,700
They could download it for free 
at Cato. 

538
00:26:36,700 --> 00:26:39,100
So, you know, they don't have to
spend they don't have to spend 

539
00:26:39,100 --> 00:26:43,700
anything but their time oh 
terrific, but very nice, so I 

540
00:26:43,700 --> 00:26:47,300
want to get into Chapter 3, a 
little bit more spontaneous 

541
00:26:47,500 --> 00:26:51,500
order. 
The what is the principle and 

542
00:26:51,500 --> 00:26:55,400
practical difference between a 
corporation engaging? 

543
00:26:55,400 --> 00:26:58,900
In centrally planning. 
For example, Doug McMullen or 

544
00:26:58,900 --> 00:27:03,100
Jeff Bezos the CEOs, sort of 
lie, centrally planning and then

545
00:27:03,100 --> 00:27:06,000
delegating and delegating. 
Until they have, you know, the 

546
00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:07,800
average person in Chandler 
Arizona. 

547
00:27:08,100 --> 00:27:11,100
What is the principal difference
between Nat Central planning and

548
00:27:11,100 --> 00:27:13,800
government Central planning? 
That is a great question. 

549
00:27:13,800 --> 00:27:17,200
And I think well, I think one 
that That wish people would ask 

550
00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:21,200
more so a couple of things. 
First of all, those 

551
00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:26,500
organizations firms corporations
would ever exist in an 

552
00:27:26,500 --> 00:27:29,100
environment that has two 
features to it. 

553
00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:32,000
And that is first, it is an 
environment of competition. 

554
00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:34,600
There are other firms doing this
engage in the same thing. 

555
00:27:34,600 --> 00:27:37,100
Amazon does have competition, 
other firms have competition. 

556
00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:39,700
So so they always have to pay 
attention to that and people 

557
00:27:39,700 --> 00:27:43,100
have choices about whether or 
not they want to patronize those

558
00:27:43,100 --> 00:27:46,400
firms, but more important, they 
Operate in an environment that 

559
00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:49,500
has prices and profits and 
markets and so on that enable 

560
00:27:49,500 --> 00:27:51,600
them to plan within their 
organizations. 

561
00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:55,200
So Amazon kankan formulate, a 
budget can see profits and 

562
00:27:55,200 --> 00:27:57,500
losses and figure out whether it
did things, right? 

563
00:27:57,500 --> 00:28:00,600
And determine whether within 
their organization, what path 

564
00:28:00,600 --> 00:28:04,900
forward they want to take. 
So, ironically what enables 

565
00:28:04,900 --> 00:28:07,800
firms to plan is the plan, 
listen, asst of the market 

566
00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:10,000
environment, in which they 
operate, right? 

567
00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:13,400
You can't engage in that 
planning within a firm. 

568
00:28:13,500 --> 00:28:16,200
Unless you have markets outside 
of the If we think about the 

569
00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:19,300
state trying to plan everything,
there's no outside for it to 

570
00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:20,400
use. 
There's no prices. 

571
00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:22,800
There's no profits. 
There's no market for it to rely

572
00:28:22,800 --> 00:28:25,500
on to engage in that planning. 
That was the sort of the, the 

573
00:28:25,900 --> 00:28:29,300
original marxian Vision. 
So you can't, you know, you 

574
00:28:29,300 --> 00:28:32,300
can't plan everything. 
But the fact that you can plan 

575
00:28:32,300 --> 00:28:35,200
in those smaller organizations 
is made possible by the plan. 

576
00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:37,800
Listen, asst of the broader 
environment in which it 

577
00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:41,800
operates, and it's important to 
remember that, you know, when we

578
00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:43,900
talk about things, like, 
spontaneous order that the 

579
00:28:43,900 --> 00:28:46,800
actions that the Visual people 
and firms and households are 

580
00:28:46,808 --> 00:28:50,100
taking our sort of rational 
planned actions. 

581
00:28:50,100 --> 00:28:52,700
It's not you know, some my 
students want to translate 

582
00:28:52,700 --> 00:28:55,500
spontaneous order as shit 
happens, but that's not right. 

583
00:28:55,500 --> 00:28:58,000
Okay. 
It people make very conscious 

584
00:28:58,000 --> 00:29:03,500
intentional decisions, the 
outcome of the back and forth of

585
00:29:03,500 --> 00:29:05,300
those decisions is no one's 
plan. 

586
00:29:05,300 --> 00:29:08,700
No one's intention is emergent 
in that sense, but the but the 

587
00:29:08,700 --> 00:29:11,400
actual decisions of the 
individual actors and firms and 

588
00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:14,100
so on very much rational and 
plan and they can do that 

589
00:29:14,100 --> 00:29:16,700
because they're operating Within
that broader Market context, 

590
00:29:17,700 --> 00:29:22,200
sure you wrote a paper some time
ago called competitive 

591
00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:26,000
currencies, legal, restrictions 
and origins of the FED, some 

592
00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:30,300
evidence from the Panic of 1907 
third, 30 years ago. 

593
00:29:30,300 --> 00:29:33,800
That's a long time ago. 
I'm curious when we look at 

594
00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:36,300
something like competitive 
currencies. 

595
00:29:36,700 --> 00:29:39,700
Is it possible that spontaneous 
order? 

596
00:29:39,700 --> 00:29:42,400
So, I'm sorry. 
I'm sorry to ask this in a 

597
00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:49,500
roundabout way when we think of 
Money, it's generally 1913 fed 

598
00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:52,500
is granted, a monopoly on the 
currency, the state. 

599
00:29:52,500 --> 00:29:56,500
Therefore provides a monopoly on
the currency as a generous favor

600
00:29:56,500 --> 00:29:59,500
to us in order. 
So that we all have a common 

601
00:29:59,500 --> 00:30:01,900
currency that we can easily 
trade with much like the 

602
00:30:01,900 --> 00:30:04,700
European Union does with the 
Euro when it comes to something,

603
00:30:04,700 --> 00:30:06,500
like currency. 
Why should we look to 

604
00:30:06,500 --> 00:30:11,200
spontaneous order and not the 
Federal Reserve Bank? 

605
00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:14,600
Well, again, sort of same, I 
think. 

606
00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:18,300
Strategy to the response. 
One, is we have historical 

607
00:30:18,300 --> 00:30:23,400
evidence of how currency money 
produced by the marketplace 

608
00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:26,600
works just fine, the period. 
I mean, the best example, this, 

609
00:30:26,600 --> 00:30:30,400
by the way, is Canada. 
Canada had Market generated 

610
00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:32,900
currencies competitive 
currencies for most of the 19th.

611
00:30:32,900 --> 00:30:36,300
And into the 20th century. 
It was remarkably free of the 

612
00:30:36,300 --> 00:30:39,800
sorts of problems that we with 
with that, the United States and

613
00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:42,400
other countries had. 
So we know, it's not just 

614
00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:43,900
Theory. 
We also know that in Great 

615
00:30:43,900 --> 00:30:47,300
Britain for Long stretch of time
competitive currency work. 

616
00:30:47,300 --> 00:30:50,600
So so we have the historical 
evidence that shows that it's 

617
00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:52,600
working. 
At the same time. 

618
00:30:52,700 --> 00:30:55,400
We have also historical evidence
of the failures of central 

619
00:30:55,400 --> 00:30:57,800
bank's right. 
The instability in the US 

620
00:30:57,800 --> 00:31:00,500
economy in the 20th century has 
been much greater than it was 

621
00:31:00,900 --> 00:31:03,500
previously. 
We never saw the inflation that 

622
00:31:03,500 --> 00:31:05,000
we've seen. 
We certainly didn't have a great

623
00:31:05,000 --> 00:31:07,800
depression or a Great Recession 
right in the in the 19th 

624
00:31:07,800 --> 00:31:10,800
century. 
So so why think that spontaneous

625
00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:14,100
ordering processes can do better
by money, we there's you know, 

626
00:31:14,100 --> 00:31:16,200
we have theories. 
That suggests, you know, same 

627
00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:18,700
sort of Stories, We Tell about 
competition in markets, but we 

628
00:31:18,700 --> 00:31:22,300
also plenty of history that 
indicates that that markets work

629
00:31:22,600 --> 00:31:26,100
in money that competition Works 
in money and that government of 

630
00:31:26,100 --> 00:31:28,200
engine fails. 
I should add that most of the, 

631
00:31:28,200 --> 00:31:31,000
that one can tell a story about 
the failures in the United 

632
00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:32,700
States in the 19th century, the 
panics. 

633
00:31:32,700 --> 00:31:35,600
And so on the story one can 
tell, there is clearly one in 

634
00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:39,700
which the federal government's 
intervention, was the primary 

635
00:31:39,700 --> 00:31:41,400
cause for those for those 
problems. 

636
00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:46,600
Yes, now it's kind of the same 
question. 

637
00:31:46,600 --> 00:31:49,400
But this is still a really 
important aspect. 

638
00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:52,900
Because when we think of law 
legality, what the law and 

639
00:31:52,900 --> 00:31:57,000
legislation is, we often think 
of well law is that, which is 

640
00:31:57,000 --> 00:32:00,500
discussed in society, 
deliberated in Congress at and 

641
00:32:00,500 --> 00:32:04,800
then passed in DC and then 
distributed amongst the States, 

642
00:32:05,600 --> 00:32:10,200
you wrote a paper spontaneity 
and design in the evolution of 

643
00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:14,900
Institutions, the similarities 
of money and Do we have any 

644
00:32:15,500 --> 00:32:18,900
reasonable justification or 
historical justification for 

645
00:32:18,900 --> 00:32:21,800
saying why law and legal rules 
in the society? 

646
00:32:21,900 --> 00:32:24,700
Could actually evolve 
spontaneously as a port, as 

647
00:32:24,700 --> 00:32:27,800
opposed to being written down by
Congressman as a room talking 

648
00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:30,200
about earlier. 
The entirety of commercial law 

649
00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:34,700
and so forth. 
Common law all emerge. 

650
00:32:34,700 --> 00:32:36,300
Nobody. 
Nobody designed it. 

651
00:32:36,300 --> 00:32:38,800
Any more than any someone 
designed the English language or

652
00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:40,800
anything else? 
Common law commercial law, 

653
00:32:40,800 --> 00:32:45,400
emerged out of a centuries-long.
Process of Judges deciding cases

654
00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:48,200
and setting precedent. 
And then new cases come up and 

655
00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:50,600
decisions are made and new 
precedents are set and what we 

656
00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:52,700
call the common law, the 
commercial laws, the 

657
00:32:52,708 --> 00:32:54,900
accumulation of all that wisdom 
over time. 

658
00:32:55,100 --> 00:32:56,500
So we already live in that 
world, right? 

659
00:32:56,500 --> 00:32:57,900
It's not a crease, not even a 
question. 

660
00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:01,200
We already live in a world in 
which, which much law. 

661
00:33:01,200 --> 00:33:02,700
Not all. 
As you say, there's a sport 

662
00:33:02,700 --> 00:33:04,800
difference between that and sort
of administrative law 

663
00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:07,000
legislation. 
But where much of the law, the 

664
00:33:07,500 --> 00:33:09,600
commercial laws, the best 
example of this is the law that 

665
00:33:09,600 --> 00:33:12,600
governs commercial transactions 
was not invented by anybody. 

666
00:33:12,600 --> 00:33:16,300
It wasn't In To Us by the state 
and emerged out of out of what 

667
00:33:16,300 --> 00:33:22,000
we call Judge driven processes. 
So while we have a general idea 

668
00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:26,200
of spontaneous order and ideal 
cooperation, we do have, you 

669
00:33:26,208 --> 00:33:31,000
know, things like pandemics or 
hurricanes and you wrote a paper

670
00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:34,100
called Walmart to the rescue 
private Enterprises response to 

671
00:33:34,100 --> 00:33:37,700
Hurricane Katrina. 
I'm curious maybe you could 

672
00:33:37,700 --> 00:33:41,300
have, when everything's going 
fine, we could have freedom but 

673
00:33:41,300 --> 00:33:44,400
when something bad happens, 
obviously we need to usher in a 

674
00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:47,600
totalitarian state. 
It seems like it the last few 

675
00:33:47,600 --> 00:33:49,900
months now. 
Live in Australia. 

676
00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:54,100
Yeah, really does. 
The existence of pandemics 

677
00:33:54,100 --> 00:33:56,800
terrible. 
Things justify the existence of 

678
00:33:56,800 --> 00:34:00,900
a coercively, interventionist 
State not in and of themselves. 

679
00:34:00,900 --> 00:34:02,800
I will make a couple things 
right? 

680
00:34:03,700 --> 00:34:06,900
These kinds of examples 
large-scale natural disasters or

681
00:34:06,900 --> 00:34:11,800
pandemic, right? 
Certainly a public health things

682
00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:15,000
like a pandemic are probably 
about the best argument. 

683
00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:17,100
You're going to get for some 
role for the state. 

684
00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:18,800
But whatever that role is, 
right? 

685
00:34:18,900 --> 00:34:22,199
But it doesn't, you know, it's 
certainly not all encompassing 

686
00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:24,199
and it certainly doesn't have to
be. 

687
00:34:24,199 --> 00:34:27,100
I mean, the lockdowns, for 
example, I think we, you know, 

688
00:34:27,199 --> 00:34:29,400
people were critical at the time
and I think we certainly know 

689
00:34:29,400 --> 00:34:31,500
after the fact we're probably 
not necessary. 

690
00:34:31,500 --> 00:34:33,900
They were other paths for we 
could have taken without, you 

691
00:34:33,900 --> 00:34:36,100
know, driving a stake through 
the economy. 

692
00:34:36,300 --> 00:34:39,600
So there's no reason to think 
that that sort of any kind of, 

693
00:34:39,900 --> 00:34:44,000
you know, broad over broad 
scale, large scale, government 

694
00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:47,800
intervention is necessary. 
I mean, you know, given that 

695
00:34:47,800 --> 00:34:49,800
government has the role of Plays
in the societies. 

696
00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:52,199
We exist in, right? 
You can, you can talk about 

697
00:34:52,199 --> 00:34:54,500
certain things. 
Government might do to ensure 

698
00:34:55,199 --> 00:34:59,100
public health and to keep 
pandemic under control things 

699
00:34:59,100 --> 00:35:00,600
like testing and so on like 
that. 

700
00:35:00,700 --> 00:35:03,800
Okay, fine, but, but that's a 
whole different story than 

701
00:35:03,800 --> 00:35:07,300
saying, you know, we then sort 
of turning into de Blasio, or 

702
00:35:07,300 --> 00:35:10,100
Andrew Como, or the, which is 
Andrews. 

703
00:35:10,100 --> 00:35:11,600
I think, is his name in 
Australia. 

704
00:35:11,600 --> 00:35:14,700
So any, right, that's a whole 
different, a whole different 

705
00:35:14,700 --> 00:35:18,100
thing. 
One Trend that I see among 

706
00:35:18,100 --> 00:35:23,400
austrians uniquely especially is
what you could refer to as I 

707
00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:27,500
believe on top of calls it a 
priori reasoning or bottle along

708
00:35:27,500 --> 00:35:31,000
with mises. 
I believe in I'm sorry. 

709
00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:35,800
I'm blanking on the book, but 
they engage in a lot of a priori

710
00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:41,200
reasoning to engage in to get an
understanding of more complex 

711
00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:43,100
ideology. 
Starting with of course, in 

712
00:35:43,100 --> 00:35:47,400
Human Action humans act. 
Then they Engage in ranking, 

713
00:35:48,600 --> 00:35:51,900
Cardinal, ordinates of, you 
know, how they value certain 

714
00:35:51,900 --> 00:35:54,600
things. 
Why is there such a focus on a 

715
00:35:54,600 --> 00:35:59,500
priori reasoning as opposed to 
empirical evidence or data from 

716
00:35:59,500 --> 00:36:02,600
the Federal Reserve? 
Well, first of all, a couple of 

717
00:36:02,607 --> 00:36:08,700
things I think, think two things
I think that mises has been 

718
00:36:08,700 --> 00:36:12,500
misunderstood on this question. 
This notion of a priori 

719
00:36:12,500 --> 00:36:14,600
reasoning doesn't mean you sit 
in your armchair at home and 

720
00:36:14,600 --> 00:36:17,400
invent economics and And 
suddenly, you know everything, 

721
00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:22,300
what mises was saying was, there
are a few things that we know 

722
00:36:22,300 --> 00:36:24,900
about human beings because 
they're fundamental to the way 

723
00:36:24,900 --> 00:36:28,000
the human mind works that humans
act and that we rank order 

724
00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:31,500
things and there's a core right?
That we just we know and we he 

725
00:36:31,500 --> 00:36:32,400
said we know through 
introspection. 

726
00:36:32,400 --> 00:36:34,800
That's how human beings work. 
And how dad by the way? 

727
00:36:34,800 --> 00:36:37,100
Now we know enough about how 
brains work and evolution to 

728
00:36:37,100 --> 00:36:39,500
sort of say, you know, there's 
there's it's not just 

729
00:36:39,500 --> 00:36:41,600
introspection. 
We have some evidence suggests 

730
00:36:41,600 --> 00:36:46,800
that human beings have 
commonalities for Old physical 

731
00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:48,600
reasons. 
But there's a limited number of 

732
00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:52,200
things, right? 
Economics is to take those 

733
00:36:52,200 --> 00:36:54,000
things and say, alright, what's 
the real world? 

734
00:36:54,000 --> 00:36:56,300
We're operating in? 
What are the actual institutions

735
00:36:56,300 --> 00:36:58,100
we face? 
What are the what are the people

736
00:36:58,100 --> 00:37:01,100
like in that world and sort of 
applying it there? 

737
00:37:01,500 --> 00:37:05,100
And and I think that this notion
that austrians reject empirical 

738
00:37:05,100 --> 00:37:07,500
evidence and so on is just it's 
just factually wrong. 

739
00:37:07,500 --> 00:37:11,300
I mean Syria. 
Money and Credit First big book,

740
00:37:11,300 --> 00:37:13,200
right? 
Was all kinds of historical 

741
00:37:13,200 --> 00:37:15,800
evidence about the roles of 
money. 

742
00:37:15,900 --> 00:37:18,400
And so on and I think other 
Austrian certainly modern 

743
00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:22,800
austrians, myself and people who
are sort of doing this work 

744
00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:25,900
today, don't reject data and 
empirical evidence. 

745
00:37:25,900 --> 00:37:28,300
We don't even reject 
econometrics necessarily as long

746
00:37:28,300 --> 00:37:31,300
as it's used to sort of support 
and supplement the argument 

747
00:37:31,300 --> 00:37:33,500
rather than being the focal 
point. 

748
00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:37,300
I did, what I wrote a piece as 
part of a Cato and bound back in

749
00:37:37,300 --> 00:37:42,100
2012 on, I think the search 
Horwitz Cato praxeology, still 

750
00:37:42,100 --> 00:37:44,600
feel find it. 
That sort of lays out this this 

751
00:37:44,600 --> 00:37:49,700
point, right? 
I think austrians did and 

752
00:37:49,700 --> 00:37:51,900
continue some to do themselves. 
No good. 

753
00:37:51,900 --> 00:37:55,600
By sort of been sitting on this 
sort of a priori nonsense. 

754
00:37:55,600 --> 00:37:58,700
It's just it's just not how we 
do things in and and importantly

755
00:37:58,700 --> 00:38:01,700
mises never even with when he 
talked about praxeology. 

756
00:38:01,700 --> 00:38:05,100
Never said, I'm sort of 
inventing, something new and 

757
00:38:05,100 --> 00:38:08,200
something out of my, you know, 
my my mind he was describing 

758
00:38:08,200 --> 00:38:11,500
what he believed. 
Good Economist had always done 

759
00:38:11,500 --> 00:38:15,300
and just trying to put a name to
it and systematize it in certain

760
00:38:15,300 --> 00:38:17,400
sorts of ways. 
So, so I think this is a really 

761
00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:19,800
misunderstood thing, and it's 
important, because what we don't

762
00:38:19,800 --> 00:38:22,800
want to be austrians, don't want
to be perceived as a sort of 

763
00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:24,200
thing. 
Well, we know, all the answers 

764
00:38:24,200 --> 00:38:26,600
to all these policy questions, 
because we just sat around and 

765
00:38:26,600 --> 00:38:28,100
man, acts and we deduced from 
there. 

766
00:38:28,100 --> 00:38:31,700
That's not how it works. 
Or, what would you say are the 

767
00:38:31,700 --> 00:38:35,700
best real world examples of free
markets? 

768
00:38:36,000 --> 00:38:40,300
Increasing the amount of wealth 
of the least well off in a given

769
00:38:40,300 --> 00:38:43,400
Society. 
Well, I think a couple of things

770
00:38:43,400 --> 00:38:47,600
you can look at the Census, 
Bureau tracks data on And what 

771
00:38:47,600 --> 00:38:50,700
percentage of households own 
certain basic appliances and so 

772
00:38:50,700 --> 00:38:52,300
on. 
And you can, you can look at 

773
00:38:52,300 --> 00:38:55,900
that and sort of see that poor 
Americans below the poverty line

774
00:38:55,900 --> 00:38:58,900
today, live, as well as the 
average American did in the 

775
00:38:58,900 --> 00:39:01,300
1970s, right? 
So that's, that's one way to 

776
00:39:01,300 --> 00:39:03,200
measure it. 
I think, in general consumption 

777
00:39:03,200 --> 00:39:05,000
is a good way to measure these 
things because that's what we 

778
00:39:05,000 --> 00:39:06,700
care about. 
Be care about what other people 

779
00:39:06,700 --> 00:39:09,300
able to buy with the with the 
money that they earn. 

780
00:39:09,300 --> 00:39:11,100
And so looking at something like
that. 

781
00:39:11,100 --> 00:39:13,900
I've done this work. 
That sort of looks at the number

782
00:39:13,900 --> 00:39:15,700
of hours, people have to work to
buy sir. 

783
00:39:15,900 --> 00:39:19,200
In kinds of things and you can 
you can you can look at that and

784
00:39:19,200 --> 00:39:22,500
sort of see that people are able
to obtain things today, with 

785
00:39:22,500 --> 00:39:24,800
much less work than they were 
years ago. 

786
00:39:24,800 --> 00:39:27,000
You can look at the percentage 
of people's income. 

787
00:39:27,000 --> 00:39:30,400
They spend on food shelter and 
clothing used to be about 75 

788
00:39:30,400 --> 00:39:32,700
percent. 100 years ago. 
It's about half that today. 

789
00:39:33,000 --> 00:39:34,700
So there's all these different 
kinds of ways. 

790
00:39:34,700 --> 00:39:36,200
I and I get as I suggested 
earlier. 

791
00:39:36,200 --> 00:39:41,200
I think you can look at these 
things like life, expectancy, 

792
00:39:41,200 --> 00:39:45,700
and literacy and all those sorts
of things to Cheep Cheep, Anna. 

793
00:39:45,800 --> 00:39:48,000
Products are available people in
ways that they didn't used to 

794
00:39:48,000 --> 00:39:50,200
be. 
That's, that's an a dramatic 

795
00:39:50,200 --> 00:39:51,900
Improvement in the lives of the 
least. 

796
00:39:51,900 --> 00:39:55,500
Well off the fact that that you 
know, this is one of my favorite

797
00:39:55,500 --> 00:39:58,800
stories that three-quarters of 
poor American households have at

798
00:39:58,800 --> 00:40:01,800
least one car, right? 
Which is that's amazing. 

799
00:40:01,800 --> 00:40:04,700
And the story I like to tell is 
I think I got this from 

800
00:40:04,700 --> 00:40:06,300
McCloskey also can talk about 
her a bunch today. 

801
00:40:06,300 --> 00:40:11,800
But but back in the 1940s, the 
Soviets decided to show the film

802
00:40:11,800 --> 00:40:14,500
version of The Grapes of Wrath 
as anti capitalist propaganda, 

803
00:40:14,500 --> 00:40:18,700
if you know the story, right? 
Just family of Okies is driven 

804
00:40:18,700 --> 00:40:20,500
out by the Dust Bowl. 
They get in their old car. 

805
00:40:20,500 --> 00:40:22,900
They drive to California, 
terrible, things happen to them.

806
00:40:23,500 --> 00:40:26,100
So on its and it was an 
anti-capitalist, sort of 

807
00:40:27,400 --> 00:40:29,600
polemics, too strong of a word 
but certainly anti-capitalist. 

808
00:40:30,100 --> 00:40:32,900
And so they showed the film as 
propaganda, and they had to stop

809
00:40:32,900 --> 00:40:34,100
after a week. 
Why? 

810
00:40:34,100 --> 00:40:36,500
Because the Russian audience is 
were watching, but whoa, wait a 

811
00:40:36,500 --> 00:40:38,800
second poor Americans have cars,
right? 

812
00:40:38,800 --> 00:40:42,200
This is you know, 1940. 
So again that those kind of 

813
00:40:42,200 --> 00:40:45,600
measures I think are really 
important but along with again, 

814
00:40:45,900 --> 00:40:49,000
See an access to medicine and 
life expectancies and so forth. 

815
00:40:49,800 --> 00:40:54,100
One of the major critiques that 
I have come across about the 

816
00:40:54,100 --> 00:40:57,900
Austrian School is that it 
focuses too much on wealth For 

817
00:40:57,900 --> 00:41:00,400
Heaven's Sake. 
It's not just about money and 

818
00:41:00,400 --> 00:41:04,600
consumption but we also need to 
focus on is living a fulfilled 

819
00:41:04,600 --> 00:41:07,000
life. 
We need to have a society with a

820
00:41:07,000 --> 00:41:10,400
high amount of social trust 
where people also feel fulfilled

821
00:41:10,400 --> 00:41:12,900
with dignity. 
The market doesn't do that. 

822
00:41:12,900 --> 00:41:15,700
The state as my representative 
has the ability to do that. 

823
00:41:15,800 --> 00:41:18,000
At therefore. 
This is a major hole in the 

824
00:41:18,000 --> 00:41:19,700
Austrian School. 
How do you respond? 

825
00:41:19,900 --> 00:41:21,800
Well, couple of things. 
First of all, the evidence that 

826
00:41:21,800 --> 00:41:25,800
the state's able to do that. 
I'm not sure where that is and 

827
00:41:25,800 --> 00:41:28,800
why it's interesting isn't it 
that many of the same people who

828
00:41:28,800 --> 00:41:31,600
might make that kind of argument
are now out marching in the 

829
00:41:31,600 --> 00:41:34,100
streets, all upset, because the 
state's locking up people in 

830
00:41:34,100 --> 00:41:36,800
jail for doing nothing wrong, 
right? 

831
00:41:37,100 --> 00:41:39,800
That's the state, right? 
And if you know, what, why is it

832
00:41:39,800 --> 00:41:42,700
you trust the same people who 
you think will do all who you're

833
00:41:42,700 --> 00:41:45,500
so upset about having all these 
powers to do all this arm. 

834
00:41:46,000 --> 00:41:47,600
Please turn around and be able 
to do good. 

835
00:41:47,600 --> 00:41:50,600
That's, you know, that's part of
it. 

836
00:41:50,600 --> 00:41:52,600
But I also think there's a fun 
more fundamental flaw in that 

837
00:41:52,600 --> 00:41:56,700
argument, which is austrians 
Libertarians, even, but 

838
00:41:56,700 --> 00:41:58,900
certainly austrians, don't 
believe that wealth is about 

839
00:41:58,900 --> 00:42:00,900
material Goods. 
It's about all the things. 

840
00:42:00,900 --> 00:42:05,000
Your wealth is all the things 
that you value, so, you know, 

841
00:42:05,000 --> 00:42:06,800
and that's subjective value. 
Right? 

842
00:42:06,900 --> 00:42:09,800
So if you value peace and quiet,
that's, you know, the having a 

843
00:42:09,800 --> 00:42:13,100
peaceful quiet environment is 
part of your wealth, if you if 

844
00:42:13,100 --> 00:42:15,700
you think the world is 
impossible to imagine without 

845
00:42:15,800 --> 00:42:18,900
Music, having music is part of 
the music to you is a form of 

846
00:42:18,900 --> 00:42:21,000
wealth. 
That's, you know, we and we 

847
00:42:21,000 --> 00:42:24,500
teach that we should be teaching
any way they want or to an econ 

848
00:42:24,500 --> 00:42:26,200
101. 
That's that's, you know, from 

849
00:42:26,200 --> 00:42:27,900
the start. 
It's as we were saying before. 

850
00:42:27,900 --> 00:42:30,000
It's not about financial and 
material stuff. 

851
00:42:30,000 --> 00:42:33,100
At least not about that alone. 
So, I think sort of the charge 

852
00:42:33,100 --> 00:42:35,700
that somehow we're not concerned
with those other things is just 

853
00:42:35,700 --> 00:42:37,200
wrong. 
And at the end of the day, the 

854
00:42:37,200 --> 00:42:39,800
way you are able to live a life 
of dignity and able to sort of 

855
00:42:39,808 --> 00:42:41,900
live a life of comfort. 
And all the things that I'm 

856
00:42:41,900 --> 00:42:44,100
talking about is you have to 
have the material resources to 

857
00:42:44,100 --> 00:42:47,500
do it and nothing has provided. 
Those material resources better 

858
00:42:47,500 --> 00:42:50,000
for the least, well off for the 
last several hundred years than 

859
00:42:50,000 --> 00:42:52,200
markets have. 
And that's, I think that's for 

860
00:42:52,200 --> 00:42:53,300
me. 
That's the response. 

861
00:42:54,400 --> 00:42:58,800
There is an interesting book. 
I think it's called wages 

862
00:42:58,900 --> 00:43:02,700
unemployment and recessions by 
mises, where he has like a 

863
00:43:02,700 --> 00:43:05,300
chapter. 
That's a two paragraphs long on 

864
00:43:05,300 --> 00:43:09,000
why wages rise, I think is the 
title of it. 

865
00:43:09,100 --> 00:43:11,800
I'm curious. 
How would you summarize why 

866
00:43:11,800 --> 00:43:14,200
wages rise? 
Thanks. 

867
00:43:14,500 --> 00:43:18,400
First of all, what? 
Matters for well, what matters 

868
00:43:18,400 --> 00:43:22,100
for wages are the productivity 
of Labour, right? 

869
00:43:22,100 --> 00:43:25,400
How productive we are as workers
and the productivity of the 

870
00:43:25,400 --> 00:43:29,400
capital that we work with. 
So one of the, why have wages 

871
00:43:29,400 --> 00:43:32,800
risen one reason is is that we 
have better, Capital work with 

872
00:43:32,800 --> 00:43:36,200
Machinery, technology, and so, 
on has made the average even if 

873
00:43:37,200 --> 00:43:39,700
Producer, productivity doesn't 
change if labor productivity 

874
00:43:39,700 --> 00:43:42,800
doesn't change, right? 
We're working with better 

875
00:43:42,800 --> 00:43:44,700
equipment than we used to, we 
can produce more than we used 

876
00:43:44,700 --> 00:43:47,900
to, but it's also the case human
beings are have more education, 

877
00:43:47,900 --> 00:43:49,700
more training, more knowledge 
than they used to. 

878
00:43:49,900 --> 00:43:53,600
We are even if Capital had 
remained the same, we ourselves 

879
00:43:53,600 --> 00:43:55,200
have more productive skill than 
we used to. 

880
00:43:55,200 --> 00:43:58,000
And the combination of those two
things is what Drive wages. 

881
00:43:58,000 --> 00:44:00,300
So, when I say to my students, 
you know, you want to earn a 

882
00:44:00,308 --> 00:44:02,300
good living. 
What do you need to do one? 

883
00:44:02,400 --> 00:44:04,700
You need to have human capital. 
You need to have your own 

884
00:44:04,700 --> 00:44:08,800
skills, but to you got to find, 
you know, Find an industry to 

885
00:44:08,808 --> 00:44:11,800
work in where, where people 
value the output, and where the 

886
00:44:11,800 --> 00:44:14,200
capital that you're working with
will make you productive. 

887
00:44:15,100 --> 00:44:17,700
Yeah, that was definitely laid 
bare to me one day when our 

888
00:44:17,700 --> 00:44:21,000
computer system, went down at 
work and we had to do like 

889
00:44:21,000 --> 00:44:24,300
everything over the phone and 
all I got a pen and paper and 

890
00:44:24,300 --> 00:44:27,100
you know, we did it. 
But we helped probably 1/50. 

891
00:44:27,100 --> 00:44:30,200
But customers, we otherwise 
would so we were 1/50 as 

892
00:44:30,200 --> 00:44:32,900
productive. 
No, wonder our wages are much 

893
00:44:32,900 --> 00:44:33,800
higher than they. 
Otherwise? 

894
00:44:33,800 --> 00:44:36,400
Right? 
Because that's right, right. 

895
00:44:36,400 --> 00:44:38,300
And that's it. 
That's a really good example, 

896
00:44:38,300 --> 00:44:39,600
right? 
That's sort of notice. 

897
00:44:40,100 --> 00:44:42,000
To in the old days. 
You would have had a lot more 

898
00:44:42,000 --> 00:44:42,900
workers. 
Right? 

899
00:44:42,900 --> 00:44:45,400
Your labor, Capital ratio would 
have been very different the way

900
00:44:45,400 --> 00:44:48,200
you would try to serve those. 
Customers is by having lots of 

901
00:44:48,200 --> 00:44:49,600
people writing stuff down by 
hand. 

902
00:44:49,600 --> 00:44:52,500
Right. 
But and what and what technology

903
00:44:52,500 --> 00:44:57,500
would Capital does is to make an
ableist fall or number of 

904
00:44:57,500 --> 00:45:00,500
workers to produce the same or 
more output freeing that other 

905
00:45:00,500 --> 00:45:02,300
labor to produce other things 
that we want. 

906
00:45:02,400 --> 00:45:05,600
People talk about how supposedly
American manufacturing is, you 

907
00:45:05,600 --> 00:45:07,500
know, not what it used to be 
because All the number of 

908
00:45:07,508 --> 00:45:09,800
manufacturing jobs has dropped. 
Well, that's true. 

909
00:45:10,000 --> 00:45:11,800
But manufacturing output still 
going up. 

910
00:45:11,800 --> 00:45:13,600
Your spray able to produce more 
with fewer people. 

911
00:45:13,600 --> 00:45:15,300
That's a good thing. 
Not a bad thing. 

912
00:45:15,600 --> 00:45:19,500
That's another great Insight of 
the austrians is that they don't

913
00:45:19,500 --> 00:45:23,600
look at people, as well as a 
worker, you're getting screwed, 

914
00:45:23,600 --> 00:45:26,700
because you lose your job. 
They're able to see competitors 

915
00:45:26,700 --> 00:45:30,400
as potential options and they 
look at this individual as a 

916
00:45:30,400 --> 00:45:34,700
person who's also a consumer. 
So, while your job might be at 

917
00:45:34,700 --> 00:45:38,000
risk, when everyone's job as 
Constantly innovating. 

918
00:45:38,000 --> 00:45:41,000
Well, you have access to 
products and services way more 

919
00:45:41,000 --> 00:45:42,600
than you. 
Otherwise would because of this 

920
00:45:42,600 --> 00:45:45,100
competition. 
Yes, the cost, is it threatens 

921
00:45:45,100 --> 00:45:47,900
your job, but the benefit is all
the access to products. 

922
00:45:47,900 --> 00:45:50,400
And so that's a really good way 
to look at it, which is to say 

923
00:45:50,400 --> 00:45:53,500
it's the same phenomena. 
The things that make your job 

924
00:45:53,500 --> 00:45:56,200
risky and and run the risk of 
losing it. 

925
00:45:56,200 --> 00:45:58,600
I like the exact same things 
that enable you to consume all 

926
00:45:58,600 --> 00:46:01,000
of those all that stuff and live
a life of comfort. 

927
00:46:01,000 --> 00:46:05,000
That's that's exactly right now.
In a lot of economic 

928
00:46:05,000 --> 00:46:07,300
discussions. 
It seems like you'll year The 

929
00:46:07,300 --> 00:46:13,300
Austrian or the chicagoan, say 
something about a general idea 

930
00:46:13,300 --> 00:46:16,600
of how to get prices lower and 
why regulation stifles 

931
00:46:16,600 --> 00:46:18,700
Innovation. 
And then you have someone else 

932
00:46:18,700 --> 00:46:21,600
who says, well instead of doing 
all this mess. 

933
00:46:21,700 --> 00:46:24,200
We should make things free now 
by free. 

934
00:46:24,200 --> 00:46:26,500
They mean, the state should 
coercively, collect the funds 

935
00:46:26,500 --> 00:46:28,900
and disperse them. 
How do you communicate to 

936
00:46:28,900 --> 00:46:33,300
someone who just has the mindset
of things can be free? 

937
00:46:33,300 --> 00:46:36,900
If it wasn't for these idiot 
Libertarians, making us making 

938
00:46:37,000 --> 00:46:38,600
In it, so they charged us for 
things. 

939
00:46:38,700 --> 00:46:41,700
Just make them free, make 
college free, make canceled 

940
00:46:41,700 --> 00:46:44,800
debt, cancel rent, cancel 
mortgage, and make health care 

941
00:46:44,800 --> 00:46:49,000
for you as well. 
Well, what I wish I knew the 

942
00:46:49,000 --> 00:46:52,000
easy answer that question. 
I think I think you have to you 

943
00:46:52,000 --> 00:46:55,400
have to talk about the fact that
resources are scarce, that there

944
00:46:55,400 --> 00:46:59,000
is no such thing as free, right?
Everything has a cost and it's 

945
00:46:59,000 --> 00:47:01,600
just a matter of who or what's 
going to bear that cost. 

946
00:47:01,600 --> 00:47:02,900
So you can, you know, free 
college. 

947
00:47:02,900 --> 00:47:06,100
It doesn't mean it's, it might 
be free to you, in the sense of 

948
00:47:06,100 --> 00:47:08,000
that. 
You're not paying dollars to get

949
00:47:08,000 --> 00:47:09,600
there. 
But someone has to provide the 

950
00:47:09,600 --> 00:47:11,900
resources to provide that to you
which means someone else doesn't

951
00:47:11,900 --> 00:47:13,500
have the resources to do another
thing. 

952
00:47:13,700 --> 00:47:17,300
So, the decisions we make about 
where to Locate resources. 

953
00:47:17,300 --> 00:47:19,900
Should we have provision of more
College Services? 

954
00:47:19,900 --> 00:47:21,700
Should we have more food, more, 
medical care, whatever. 

955
00:47:21,900 --> 00:47:23,400
We need some way of sorting that
out. 

956
00:47:23,500 --> 00:47:25,800
But that's what prices do. 
And that's something the chapter

957
00:47:25,800 --> 00:47:28,200
in the book on the Socialist 
calculation debate at talks, 

958
00:47:28,400 --> 00:47:31,300
talks all about that. 
And so, I think, you know, one 

959
00:47:31,300 --> 00:47:34,300
of the questions you can ask 
people when they, when they make

960
00:47:34,300 --> 00:47:37,500
that argument, or if something 
exists to remind them that 

961
00:47:37,500 --> 00:47:39,900
resources used for one thing, 
our resources taken away from 

962
00:47:39,900 --> 00:47:41,700
another. 
How are you going to decide? 

963
00:47:41,700 --> 00:47:44,100
How do you know, which things 
are more important than others? 

964
00:47:44,400 --> 00:47:46,300
And more importantly, how do you
know, you know? 

965
00:47:46,500 --> 00:47:48,100
No, who's going to produce them 
and who's not? 

966
00:47:48,100 --> 00:47:49,300
And then you had to answer all 
kinds of questions. 

967
00:47:49,300 --> 00:47:51,200
Okay, free college. 
What kind of college liberal 

968
00:47:51,200 --> 00:47:53,900
arts college, right? 
Technical College, what right? 

969
00:47:54,000 --> 00:47:55,600
We're going to put you know, 
we're going to provide people 

970
00:47:55,600 --> 00:47:57,700
with free, you know, nails and 
hammers. 

971
00:47:57,700 --> 00:47:58,700
Okay. 
What size nails? 

972
00:47:58,700 --> 00:48:00,400
What size happen? 
How do we get medical? 

973
00:48:00,400 --> 00:48:02,300
Care is the best. 
Example, we provide you with 

974
00:48:02,300 --> 00:48:05,200
Free Medical Care by governments
and well, okay, what kind of 

975
00:48:05,200 --> 00:48:06,800
medical care? 
How many doctors, how many 

976
00:48:06,800 --> 00:48:08,900
nurses, huh? 
What sorts of things, what sort 

977
00:48:08,900 --> 00:48:12,400
of drugs in all of those 
detailed questions without 

978
00:48:12,400 --> 00:48:14,900
markets to guide you without 
Witnesses called the aides to 

979
00:48:14,900 --> 00:48:18,100
the mind of prices and profits. 
You can't figure that out. 

980
00:48:18,100 --> 00:48:20,800
Right? 
You're, you're, you know, let's 

981
00:48:20,800 --> 00:48:23,200
put something like this in an 
article on this. 

982
00:48:23,200 --> 00:48:29,200
But, you know, people accuse 
Libertarians of having no heart,

983
00:48:29,300 --> 00:48:32,800
but in fact, replacing the 
market with the state is more 

984
00:48:32,800 --> 00:48:35,900
like gouging out your eyes, 
right, that you can't see, you 

985
00:48:35,900 --> 00:48:38,200
can't figure out what you need, 
what you need to do. 

986
00:48:38,200 --> 00:48:41,500
And and and in order to care 
about the least, well off in 

987
00:48:41,508 --> 00:48:44,100
order to sort of expand 
opportunities, for more people, 

988
00:48:44,500 --> 00:48:46,300
you need to be able to use 
resources. 

989
00:48:46,800 --> 00:48:49,700
Effectively and you need to be 
able to see where people's 

990
00:48:49,700 --> 00:48:51,400
priorities are. 
And that's what markets help us 

991
00:48:51,400 --> 00:48:54,400
figure out. 
It's so incredible that the 

992
00:48:54,400 --> 00:48:57,900
state has just give us those 
objections. 

993
00:48:58,200 --> 00:49:00,200
Totally ignoring the pile of 
bodies. 

994
00:49:00,200 --> 00:49:04,300
That governments have murdered 
over the last century about 

995
00:49:04,300 --> 00:49:06,200
since the days of like ancient 
Egypt. 

996
00:49:06,200 --> 00:49:09,500
I'll be enslavement mass murder 
and they're like, oh, you guys 

997
00:49:09,500 --> 00:49:11,700
do your philosophy doesn't care 
about people. 

998
00:49:12,400 --> 00:49:14,600
What? 
Well, and notice to write that, 

999
00:49:14,600 --> 00:49:17,300
some of that argument. 
Is that, that What's interesting

1000
00:49:17,300 --> 00:49:19,700
about it to me? 
Is it, they are the ones that 

1001
00:49:19,700 --> 00:49:24,100
are focused on the material, 
they can only see sort of costs 

1002
00:49:24,100 --> 00:49:26,300
and wealth to go back to our 
other conversation right? 

1003
00:49:26,300 --> 00:49:28,600
In terms of material stuff. 
And that's what they're so 

1004
00:49:28,600 --> 00:49:30,900
they're accusing us of being 
focused only on that. 

1005
00:49:30,900 --> 00:49:33,400
But to them that's what it is. 
I mean, in a way right there, 

1006
00:49:33,400 --> 00:49:35,700
the ones who are saying saying 
that's that's what is, and we 

1007
00:49:35,700 --> 00:49:38,400
have a I think much broader 
Vision austrians. 

1008
00:49:38,400 --> 00:49:40,300
Have certainly much better 
vision of what constitutes 

1009
00:49:40,300 --> 00:49:43,900
wealth, right? 
And and and when we talked 

1010
00:49:43,900 --> 00:49:46,600
things about scared, we say 
things about scarcity and We're 

1011
00:49:46,600 --> 00:49:48,700
not just thinking of physical 
material things. 

1012
00:49:48,900 --> 00:49:51,700
We're recognizing that he would 
beings exist in a world where we

1013
00:49:51,700 --> 00:49:53,400
cannot get everything that we 
want. 

1014
00:49:53,500 --> 00:49:57,800
And so we have to make choices. 
People often describe 

1015
00:49:57,800 --> 00:50:01,600
competition as very dog-eat-dog,
this primitive. 

1016
00:50:01,700 --> 00:50:04,300
I'm going to get you. 
I'm going to undercut you. 

1017
00:50:04,300 --> 00:50:07,500
I'm going to do anything I can 
so I could win when I win. 

1018
00:50:07,700 --> 00:50:09,100
You lose. 
That's competing. 

1019
00:50:09,100 --> 00:50:12,500
Like a basketball game. 
You describe a competition very 

1020
00:50:12,500 --> 00:50:15,000
differently and Austrian 
economics and introduction, 

1021
00:50:15,300 --> 00:50:17,500
where you say, it's much more. 
Of a process. 

1022
00:50:17,600 --> 00:50:20,200
How is competition? 
Not like a dog-eat-dog win-lose 

1023
00:50:20,200 --> 00:50:21,900
situation, but more of a 
process. 

1024
00:50:22,300 --> 00:50:25,800
Well, I think I'm not sure that 
that process is the right. 

1025
00:50:25,800 --> 00:50:28,400
Sort of comparison of doggy dog,
but I certainly think one of the

1026
00:50:28,400 --> 00:50:31,300
things we think about economic 
competition, the way it differs 

1027
00:50:31,300 --> 00:50:34,400
from other forms of competition 
is that it's positive, some 

1028
00:50:34,600 --> 00:50:36,100
right. 
The competition among, would you

1029
00:50:36,100 --> 00:50:38,200
think about, you know, someone 
has to win and someone has to 

1030
00:50:38,207 --> 00:50:41,200
lose a baseball game? 
Okay, there's a winner and a 

1031
00:50:41,207 --> 00:50:43,000
loser. 
If we think about, you know, 

1032
00:50:43,600 --> 00:50:46,300
competition biological 
competition, right, you know. 

1033
00:50:46,500 --> 00:50:50,000
You survived your, don't put in 
a cannot physically survive, but

1034
00:50:50,000 --> 00:50:52,100
economic competition, the 
competition among firms. 

1035
00:50:53,000 --> 00:50:57,200
It might be that one firm wins 
out the competition and from 

1036
00:50:57,200 --> 00:50:59,900
losses, but we all win as 
consumers to go back to your 

1037
00:50:59,900 --> 00:51:01,800
point from earlier, right? 
We all went as consumers because

1038
00:51:01,800 --> 00:51:04,800
that's the process, right? 
It's through that process, that 

1039
00:51:04,800 --> 00:51:08,200
prices are driven down that 
Goods become more affordable and

1040
00:51:08,200 --> 00:51:11,200
so on. 
So, so sort of, you know, the 

1041
00:51:11,200 --> 00:51:14,800
notion of, I mean, is good 
competition should be 

1042
00:51:15,500 --> 00:51:17,700
dog-eat-dog. 
Should Intense and rivalrous, 

1043
00:51:17,700 --> 00:51:20,600
but the point is that one we've 
moved from a world for most of 

1044
00:51:20,600 --> 00:51:23,300
human history where competition 
was literally life or death. 

1045
00:51:23,300 --> 00:51:25,700
Now, it's not literally life or 
death. 

1046
00:51:25,800 --> 00:51:27,800
It's does your firm Survivor not
into it. 

1047
00:51:27,800 --> 00:51:30,900
Produces benefits produces 
benefits for other people and 

1048
00:51:30,900 --> 00:51:32,100
let me make another Point here 
too. 

1049
00:51:32,300 --> 00:51:37,800
I think that that Libertarians 
need to talk more about the ways

1050
00:51:37,800 --> 00:51:39,800
in which markets are about 
cooperation. 

1051
00:51:40,000 --> 00:51:41,800
As much as they are about 
competition. 

1052
00:51:41,800 --> 00:51:44,400
What happens in marketplaces is 
that we cooperate with each 

1053
00:51:44,400 --> 00:51:45,900
other, right? 
Producers. 

1054
00:51:46,400 --> 00:51:49,500
Deuces and consumers, cooperate.
When you go into the store to 

1055
00:51:49,500 --> 00:51:52,000
look for that can of Coke. 
It's there waiting for you, 

1056
00:51:52,300 --> 00:51:54,600
right? 
When you want something from 

1057
00:51:54,600 --> 00:51:57,700
Amazon, you get it. 
Okay, and that's that love that 

1058
00:51:57,700 --> 00:52:02,400
cooperation, the fact that we 
are able to engage with each 

1059
00:52:02,400 --> 00:52:04,900
other in these peaceful 
productive positive. 

1060
00:52:04,900 --> 00:52:09,600
Some ways is an amazing thing 
under that is the competition, 

1061
00:52:09,600 --> 00:52:11,300
right? 
That were just talking about. 

1062
00:52:11,300 --> 00:52:14,300
But what that does is create 
this world of social cooperation

1063
00:52:14,300 --> 00:52:16,200
and I think that's a we don't 
talk about it. 

1064
00:52:16,500 --> 00:52:18,500
Often those terms. 
Exactly. 

1065
00:52:18,500 --> 00:52:22,300
Yeah, it's like you do see Olive
Garden competing with Red Robin 

1066
00:52:22,300 --> 00:52:25,500
competing with TGI Fridays. 
But if you just go into the 

1067
00:52:25,500 --> 00:52:27,700
Olive Garden, everything that's 
there. 

1068
00:52:27,900 --> 00:52:30,600
Took hundreds of people to 
cooperate. 

1069
00:52:30,600 --> 00:52:33,500
Just there, you know, getting 
into the eye pencil phenomenon 

1070
00:52:33,500 --> 00:52:36,900
of, you know, there's not going 
alone, took a million people to 

1071
00:52:36,900 --> 00:52:38,900
mad. 
And and if they, and if they 

1072
00:52:38,900 --> 00:52:42,100
drive Red Robin out of business,
nobody dies, right? 

1073
00:52:42,100 --> 00:52:45,200
The resources that were used to 
be for Red Robin now can be used

1074
00:52:45,200 --> 00:52:47,600
for something else. 
Right, and that's that's the 

1075
00:52:47,600 --> 00:52:50,200
difference between sort of what 
people think about his 

1076
00:52:50,200 --> 00:52:53,800
biological competition or or 
even athletic competition or 

1077
00:52:53,800 --> 00:52:58,200
military competition, right? 
Which are - best 0, but - some 

1078
00:52:58,200 --> 00:53:00,700
games. 
What do you think that great 

1079
00:53:00,700 --> 00:53:04,900
intellectual contribution of 
Eugene, Bamba verdict was to the

1080
00:53:04,900 --> 00:53:07,300
Austrian School and Society at 
large. 

1081
00:53:07,800 --> 00:53:10,400
Well, I think most economists 
would know him from his stuff 

1082
00:53:10,400 --> 00:53:13,300
and capital and interest and I 
think that's probably the right 

1083
00:53:13,300 --> 00:53:18,000
answer and he really formulated 
the first Systematic 

1084
00:53:18,600 --> 00:53:20,900
explanations of capital and 
interest After the marginalist 

1085
00:53:20,900 --> 00:53:22,900
Revolution. 
And after So, within the 

1086
00:53:22,900 --> 00:53:25,500
Austrian tradition and almost 
anyone who writes in that has to

1087
00:53:25,500 --> 00:53:26,600
do with it. 
I mean there were just there 

1088
00:53:26,600 --> 00:53:29,000
were errors in it, you know, 
we've improved upon it over 

1089
00:53:29,000 --> 00:53:31,600
time, but certainly, that was 
his fundamental contribution to 

1090
00:53:31,607 --> 00:53:36,300
economics. 
So if I seek out employment for 

1091
00:53:36,300 --> 00:53:41,600
an employer and the employer 
makes $50 an hour off my labor, 

1092
00:53:41,600 --> 00:53:45,700
but only pays me $20 an hour. 
Is this a form of unjustified? 

1093
00:53:46,300 --> 00:53:49,800
Action, if you're really 
producing 50 dollars, worth of 

1094
00:53:49,800 --> 00:53:53,200
value for that employer, but 
your, she's only paying you 20. 

1095
00:53:53,500 --> 00:53:57,100
Okay, two things are true. 
There is another employer 

1096
00:53:57,100 --> 00:54:03,600
somewhere else who is making $50
off, $50 total off you who could

1097
00:54:03,600 --> 00:54:06,400
profit by paying you 25 or 30, 
right. 

1098
00:54:06,400 --> 00:54:10,500
And still make right, still make
the difference, make $20, 

1099
00:54:10,500 --> 00:54:14,300
whatever, as a difference. 
So so why wouldn't that other 

1100
00:54:14,300 --> 00:54:16,200
employers step in and offer you 
the better deal? 

1101
00:54:16,400 --> 00:54:18,500
And secondly, why wouldn't you 
go searching for it? 

1102
00:54:18,500 --> 00:54:21,100
If you, if you were, you know, 
you tried it. 

1103
00:54:21,100 --> 00:54:22,300
You should be able to say to 
that other employers. 

1104
00:54:22,300 --> 00:54:24,400
Look, I'll come work for you, 
right? 

1105
00:54:24,400 --> 00:54:27,300
I, you know, I can produce 50 
dollars worth of value. 

1106
00:54:27,300 --> 00:54:29,800
They're only paying me 20, what,
you know, what will you pay me? 

1107
00:54:29,900 --> 00:54:32,700
And it should be in theory, 
worth them to pay up to 4999. 

1108
00:54:32,700 --> 00:54:36,800
They're still making it up, you 
know, penny a profit off of what

1109
00:54:36,800 --> 00:54:39,500
you're doing. 
So so why firms would 

1110
00:54:39,500 --> 00:54:43,600
consistently pay workers less 
than the value that they 

1111
00:54:43,600 --> 00:54:45,900
produce. 
It's not clear in a competitive 

1112
00:54:45,900 --> 00:54:47,400
market. 
It sure. 

1113
00:54:47,400 --> 00:54:52,100
And I just want to get to the 
heart of your your discussion on

1114
00:54:52,100 --> 00:54:54,900
entrepreneurship. 
I've just got about a couple 

1115
00:54:54,900 --> 00:54:56,100
more minutes. 
Oh, yes. 

1116
00:54:56,100 --> 00:54:59,700
Okay, look last question just to
fuck when talking about 

1117
00:54:59,700 --> 00:55:03,200
entrepreneurship. 
Is it inherently exploitative? 

1118
00:55:03,200 --> 00:55:07,800
The fact that I use you to make 
more money, even if I have 50 

1119
00:55:07,800 --> 00:55:10,600
competitors and you can get 
maybe get a better deal 

1120
00:55:10,600 --> 00:55:13,700
elsewhere. 
Are we still dealing with a mean

1121
00:55:13,800 --> 00:55:16,100
using you to make money off of 
you? 

1122
00:55:16,100 --> 00:55:18,500
So You can make money for me, 
the Fat Cat. 

1123
00:55:18,800 --> 00:55:20,900
What, what, what's the using 
there? 

1124
00:55:20,900 --> 00:55:22,100
And what's the making money off 
me? 

1125
00:55:22,100 --> 00:55:24,900
If you if it's a mutually 
beneficial transaction, right? 

1126
00:55:24,900 --> 00:55:26,900
You're paying me for my labor. 
Right? 

1127
00:55:26,900 --> 00:55:30,800
And I'm providing value to you. 
You're in the position, go back 

1128
00:55:30,800 --> 00:55:33,300
to our earlier conversation. 
You as the owns, the owner are 

1129
00:55:33,300 --> 00:55:35,700
in a position of having Capital,
that makes my labor more 

1130
00:55:35,700 --> 00:55:37,000
valuable than it would be. 
Otherwise. 

1131
00:55:37,000 --> 00:55:39,800
Remember, as a worker. 
I need Capital as a capitalist. 

1132
00:55:39,800 --> 00:55:43,700
You need workers, right? 
And so so, you know, are there 

1133
00:55:43,700 --> 00:55:45,600
differences in bargaining power?
Sure. 

1134
00:55:46,800 --> 00:55:49,900
But the fact that that workers 
in a competitive market, economy

1135
00:55:49,900 --> 00:55:53,100
can exit and find other options 
is important. 

1136
00:55:53,500 --> 00:55:56,400
And if they don't think they're 
being paid fairly, there are 

1137
00:55:56,400 --> 00:56:00,100
other options out there and and 
you know, well all the firm's 

1138
00:56:00,100 --> 00:56:01,300
got together and keep wages 
down. 

1139
00:56:01,300 --> 00:56:03,500
Well, we went through that with 
our discussion of cartels, 

1140
00:56:03,500 --> 00:56:05,300
right? 
The incentive for any individual

1141
00:56:05,300 --> 00:56:07,500
to break that agreement is still
is still pretty high. 

1142
00:56:07,500 --> 00:56:10,100
So there's nothing mean to claim
that it's inherently 

1143
00:56:10,100 --> 00:56:12,100
exploitative. 
I think in the end start from a 

1144
00:56:12,107 --> 00:56:14,100
marketing perspective is going 
to have to rest on something 

1145
00:56:14,100 --> 00:56:17,900
like the labor theory of value 
which we know is False, of 

1146
00:56:17,900 --> 00:56:19,500
course. 
And sometimes it's the other way

1147
00:56:19,500 --> 00:56:23,200
around, when the business might 
go under, well, then a lot of 

1148
00:56:23,200 --> 00:56:25,200
the employees have more leverage
at that time. 

1149
00:56:25,500 --> 00:56:27,800
When I as a consumer, go into a 
place. 

1150
00:56:28,100 --> 00:56:30,600
I'm not looking to meet the 
employees and fulfill their 

1151
00:56:30,600 --> 00:56:31,400
lives. 
I'm doing it. 

1152
00:56:31,400 --> 00:56:33,800
Because I want a product. 
I want a service. 

1153
00:56:34,000 --> 00:56:35,800
It's like they do when they come
into my store. 

1154
00:56:35,900 --> 00:56:37,500
Nothing wrong with this 
voluntary. 

1155
00:56:37,500 --> 00:56:40,100
Commercial interaction. 
I noticed parties benefit, 

1156
00:56:40,100 --> 00:56:42,000
right? 
And notice that the focus, There

1157
00:56:42,000 --> 00:56:44,700
is almost always on 
entrepreneurs who profit, right?

1158
00:56:44,700 --> 00:56:48,100
What up? 
Yeah, I mean, what, how do you, 

1159
00:56:48,100 --> 00:56:49,400
how do you? 
How do you talk about that? 

1160
00:56:49,900 --> 00:56:52,500
Excellent, Steven Horowitz? 
Thank you so much for your time.

1161
00:56:52,500 --> 00:56:55,500
I really appreciate it. 
The book is economics and 

1162
00:56:55,500 --> 00:56:56,800
introduction. 
Something. 

1163
00:56:56,800 --> 00:57:00,700
I absolutely recommend. 
As I said, you can, you can find

1164
00:57:00,900 --> 00:57:04,300
a downloadable version at 
libertarianism.org and the Cato 

1165
00:57:04,300 --> 00:57:06,300
Institute website. 
You can also find their there 

1166
00:57:06,300 --> 00:57:08,700
are seven video lectures at a 
company at that sort of 

1167
00:57:08,700 --> 00:57:10,400
correspond to the various 
chapters. 

1168
00:57:10,600 --> 00:57:12,500
So that's another thing. 
If you're interested, you can go

1169
00:57:12,500 --> 00:57:14,300
take a look at those as well. 
Terrific. 

1170
00:57:14,300 --> 00:57:17,600
You will find all those links in
the Description below, mr. 

1171
00:57:17,600 --> 00:57:18,900
Horowitz. 
Thank you so much for your time.

1172
00:57:19,000 --> 00:57:20,100
My pleasure. 
Happy to be here. 

1173
00:57:20,100 --> 00:57:21,000
Keith. 
Thanks for having me.